What is Religious Trauma, CPTSD & Healing After High-Control Religion | Dr. Laura E. Anderson

Dr. Laura Anderson: all of that stuff that you've been holding in for years or decades starts to move back through your body. And that's where we start to see like very real physical symptoms, things like pain, chronic illness, chronic disease, sleeping issues, GI issues, autoimmune issues. We also start to see it show up in anxiety, depression, OCD, lots of mental health things that are going on, relational things, and it can feel really confusing because you're like, I'm safe. Like, I'm not in this situation anymore. Why is my body doing this? everything that it's been holding in now has a chance to come out.
Katie Grace: welcome back everybody to the Reconstructing Podcast. I am your host, Katie Grace, and I am asking the tough questions that come up when the lives that we once built for ourselves no longer fit who we become. We have to figure out what we're gonna keep, what we're letting go of, and what we're building next. I am absolutely stoked to be here today with our next guest, Dr. Laura E. Anderson. She is one of the founding voices in our current field of research and education regarding religious trauma. In 2019, she co-founded the Religious Trauma Institute. And in 2021, she opened the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery, Providing coaching, trainings, and education relating to religious trauma, complex trauma, faith deconstruction, identity reconstruction, grief work, and more. Her book, When Religion Hurts You, is the best resource that I have found to date when it comes to understanding and beginning a healing journey from religious trauma. Dr. Laura, thank you so much. Welcome to the show.
Dr. Laura Anderson: Thank you for having me. It's great to be here.
Katie Grace: I'm so excited that you're here. Honestly, I I read your book just in preparation for this interview, and I have so many pages dog-eared. I'm gonna be going back to it one million times. It's really fantastic.
Dr. Laura Anderson: Thank you. I appreciate that. I always love hearing when people have like felt heard and seen like as a resource because I think there really wasn't a lot of resources. I think now, you know, a few years after having written the book, there are more resources. But I that was my hope. It was like that it could be something for people who are coming out of high control religions because it feels like you're floundering, you know, and like which way is up? And so it's always nice to hear that people found that in the book.
Katie Grace: Absolutely. Yeah. I I mean, really, it's like a human need to feel seen and to feel
Dr. Laura Anderson: Mm. Yeah.
Katie Grace: safe and soothed. And your book does all of those things. And I feel like it is really so new. I personally feel like it's really been since like COVID, so since about 2020, that
Dr. Laura Anderson: Mm, mm.
Katie Grace: I feel like something has shifted. I don't know if you feel the same way, but something
Dr. Laura Anderson: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Katie Grace: has shifted. And I feel like people are just much more open to talking about this. And therefore, then there are all these other resources coming out.
Dr. Laura Anderson: Yeah, I mean, I I think I talk about it a little bit in the book, but I I sensed a shift on social media starting in like twenty fifteen, twenty sixteen with the election of Donald Trump.
Katie Grace: Yes.
Dr. Laura Anderson: And then I think as time continued, and social media became more of a place where you did some education and things like that, I think we started having more conversations, but really I think the pandemic put a lot of that into perspective. I know a lot of clients that I worked with at the time, like the pandemic was the first time they were really dealing with anything for the first time where they were having to make their own choices, not just looking to their pastors. And these were big choices. they were recognizing that like maybe they were making different choices than friends or family or their community was shifting. And so I feel like there was just like it was this prime opportunity for conversations to happen almost on accident, but very necessary. to kind of push people into healing and, you know, being able to navigate the impacts of high control religion. And I think it's kind of like taken off from that point.
Katie Grace: Mm, absolutely. Yeah. And I think even the fact that, you know, churches had to be shut down. Like there was it was a global shutdown, right? And
Dr. Laura Anderson: Yeah. Yeah.
Katie Grace: anything that was considered non essential. I know in
Dr. Laura Anderson: Mm-hmm.
Katie Grace: in my own journey that was a big turning point was like for the first time in my life, I was not going to church every Sunday, plus
Dr. Laura Anderson: Yeah.
Katie Grace: multiple other times during the week to volunteer or something. And that,
Dr. Laura Anderson: Mm-hmm.
Katie Grace: yeah, that alone made such a big difference.
Dr. Laura Anderson: Yeah, I mean I I don't want to speak ill of all churches. I know that there's many good churches that are affirming, are ac accepting, are more progressive and things like that. But I do think it's worth paying attention to how many people, when they weren't getting that weekly dose of indoctrination, were able to s have enough space to kind of evaluate what was happening. And is this something that I agree with? I think also it was a time where there was a lot of dissonance between what was happening from religious leaders, what was happening in the culture. the responses of it, it all kind of was happening at the same time. So not only is, you know, everything happening in the culture, but then they don't have this like weekly influx of information and, you know, music and community. And I think it just gave people this opportunity, I mean, like yourself, to ask difficult questions and maybe come to some conclusions that they never thought they would have. Yeah.
Katie Grace: Mm-hmm. my goodness. And it's so weird to think that I mean, twenty twenty, I still feel like that was, you know, like two years ago. And we're we're coming up on seven years as of right now.
Dr. Laura Anderson: Two years ago, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It is really weird to think about that, like, wow, like that, yeah, seven years. It's a long
Katie Grace: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Laura Anderson: time, like almost a lifetime ago. And yet some so it's yeah, it's also two years ago. That's what I think too. Yeah. It's true, yeah.
Katie Grace: Exactly. Time time has just blurred. It doesn't make sense anymore. I wanted to I wanted to talk about something that you break down so concisely in your book, and I think that everybody should go by it. I don't wanna, you know, have too much of the same things spoken about here today, but I do think it's probably important for like the foundation of this discussion to break down some of your definitions and differentiations that you use for things like adverse religious experiences.
Dr. Laura Anderson: Mm-hmm.
Katie Grace: Trauma and religious trauma, CPTSD, and so on.
Dr. Laura Anderson: Yeah, absolutely. That's a great place to start. So, okay, so we have adverse religious experiences, religious trauma, CPTSD, PTSD. I think one of the easiest ways that I kind of describe things is trauma is not the thing that happens to you, but the way that your body responds to the things that have happened to you. so Trauma is anything that is too much too fast too soon or happens for too long that overwhelms our ability to cope and come back to a place of safety. That is not unique to religious trauma or any other kind of trauma. That is trauma in general. I'll break down a little bit more about trauma in a second, but when we talk about like when the things that happen to us, that's where adverse religious experiences, spiritual abuse, religious abuse might come into play. Those are things that happen to us. They do not like unequivocally. equate to trauma. Now, I I th a working hypothesis that I have is the more abuse you may have experienced or the more adverse religious experiences you may have endured, the higher the likelihood that it would result in trauma. But those are two very different things. Adverse religious experiences is a term that some colleagues and I coined, gosh, seven, eight years ago now We were looking for a term because a lot of people really weren't identifying with the term spiritual or religious abuse. They felt like the word abuse was really heavy, that it didn't
Katie Grace: Mm.
Dr. Laura Anderson: maybe fit what their experiences have been. And and I can really appreciate that. Abuse is a heavy word. and so we kind of played around with some different terms and we actually borrowed from the adverse childhood experiences research. So ACEs. now we deviate from it a little bit, but adverse experiences. really could just be anything that happened in a religious setting with the rel in a you know, religious doctrines and teachings, relationships, that were adverse to you. There is some subjectivity that goes along with it. so things like purity culture, altar calls, you know, how you were treated because of your gender or sexuality, many other things could all be considered adverse religious experiences. There I For different people, it crosses the line into more of that spiritual abuse. And that might be a conversation that's too long to have for today. We can go into it if you want. But I think people have found that term to be very helpful because it does encapsulate what they have experienced. They were adverse experiences in the context of religious settings, structures, relationships, and experiences or situations. so like I said, the hypothesis that we have is that the more adverse religious experiences you have endured, the greater the likelihood that it would result in religious trauma. I put religious trauma under the umbrella of complex trauma. And I think that's important because truly there's not a lot of research out there that talks specifically about religious trauma. There is more than there was 10 years ago. And it's very interesting. There's a lot of research actually that's come out in the last five years about purity culture and the impact that that can have. But as a specific kind of niche of trauma, religious trauma isn't something that has a lot of research around it, but trauma does. And when we look at trauma, we can apply everything that we know to trauma to religious trauma as well. So I put religious trauma under the umbrella of CPTSD and I dis I make a distinction between CPTSD and PTSD. Not one as greater or lesser than the other, just two very different experiences. I liken PTSD to what is called single incident trauma. So it it's kind of exactly what it sounds like. There is an incident that happened. So there was a before. And then the thing happened, and then there is an after. And that when when things like that happen, that is traditionally what results in PTSD. of course, there's some psychology and science behind how that all happens and what happens biologically, neurologically, all of that. But for the purposes of this conversation, I think that fits. CPTSD or complex post traumatic stress disorder is different in that it typically doesn't have singular events that are really large and overwhelming. It is a persistent, consistent threat and overwhelm that is oftentimes inescapable. Some people
Katie Grace: Mm.
Dr. Laura Anderson: will say it is like death by a thousand paper cuts. But this is the situation where like the harm, the overwhelm, the threat is ongoing. It actually becomes a little bit of like your baseline of what is normal. This is just you learn how to function within it. And so I put religious trauma in that that category of kind of trauma. Because for many people who grew up in high control religion, there was no way to escape it. They had no choice but to participate in the activities. They couldn't fight back against it. They couldn't say no. And so they had to learn to adapt and morph themselves in order to survive this. Even if it felt overwhelming. Like I think about teaching children about hell, eternal conscious torment, or separation from their caregivers and the people that they love the most. That is overwhelming for a tiny physiology to be able to take in. And yet there's no nobody combating that message or offering safety in a different way. And so over time then that starts to impact the way you see yourself, the way you see the world, how you interact with other people. It can also have physical impacts on your body, your immune system, your stress response. And so it is kind of this like totality so that when you come out of it, people navigating complex p PTSD are really having to kind of address almost every area of their life. And I think for people coming out of high control religion, they find that to be very true themselves. So I don't I know that's like high level, but hopefully that will help people understand a little bit more of what we're talking about.
Katie Grace: No, that's perfect. Honestly. I think that gives us a really solid baseline. And to my understanding, and I know you put some of this in your book too, but wasn't a lot of the initial research or categorization of CPTSD done in like the early nineties?
Dr. Laura Anderson: Yes. So Judith Herman's work kind of built on work that had already come out. I mean, traditionally, PTSD, it didn't get that designation until I think it was the late seventies, early eighties. Prior to that, it was called things like shell shock. And it was it really was relegated to soldiers that were coming back from war. They started to notice people coming back from war kind of have a hollow or vacant look. They must They might be triggered or activated certain times, certain certain situations, noises, things like that. And so PTSD or shell shock at the time was kind of considered to be like if you go through these really catastrophic experiences, things like war, maybe a natural disaster, a car accident, witness something really horrific, like then this PTSD response would make sense. But there was All of these other people that were experiencing very similar symptoms, but they hadn't necessarily experienced something like war or a natural disaster. And so that's where the research continued, and that's where I think Judith Herman is so influential. She came out with her book in 1992 called Trauma and Recovery. And she's really the one that was pioneering the recognition that there's all these other things that live in your body like trauma. And interestingly, she she named off kind of some of the The big things that could cause this, and cults were one of them, like domestic violence, kidnapping situations, living in a war-torn country, and being a part of a cult. I don't
Katie Grace: Hm.
Dr. Laura Anderson: want to just use cult and religious trauma, you know, interchangeably. I think there can be some differences. Sorry, cults and high control religion interchangeably. I think there can be some differences, but I think we see so many of the sim same motivations, similarities and patterns and dynamics of power and control. that it fits really well in in that both the cults and kind of the di dynamics of domestic violence as well.
Katie Grace: Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, it's just interesting for me as like a completely, you know, like average person. I'm not a therapist. I'm not in the mental health field, but it's interesting to to learn these things that like, okay, there's, you know, a significant amount of time has passed now where there's all this research that's been done. And yet I feel like things tend to maybe trickle down from like more of a clinical level, like a high level,
Dr. Laura Anderson: Mm-hmm.
Katie Grace: and then getting more mainstream. And
Dr. Laura Anderson: Mm-hmm.
Katie Grace: To me, it feels like there's only just recently been talk even about CPTSD and those differentiations. And
Dr. Laura Anderson: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Katie Grace: I didn't like, you know, really look into that for myself until earlier this year. So, but it's
Dr. Laura Anderson: Mm-hmm.
Katie Grace: so helpful to have like a label, like a, this makes sense. This is why I'm experiencing all these symptoms. This is why I am the way that I am.
Dr. Laura Anderson: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I think it's worth noting noting for people who live in the United States, CPTSD is actually not a diagnosis that is recognized like by insurance panels and things like that. Everywhere else in the world it is. They use a different coding
Katie Grace: wow.
Dr. Laura Anderson: system for diagnosing called the ICD system. In the United States, we use the DSM, which is called the Diagnostic Statistical Manual, and we as therapists we use it. And CPTSD does not exist. Now I think it's worth noting that complex PTSD or developmental trauma is one of the diagnoses that has the most research around it. The ACE study is just one. But there's many other studies. But there is also this recognition, this is a total soapbox. I can get on that I won't. But if we do start to recognize CPTSD as a valid diagnosis, we actually have to go back into all of our research and like re-evaluate everything to recognize that, maybe some of these diagnoses, diagnoses that we're so rapidly handing out actually Have roots in trauma. And that messes with insurance paneling and credentialing and payments and all these things. So they're like, you know what? Let's just not put it in there. I think we're close. I think we're close to making some changes, especially because everywhere else in the world it is recognized. but I think that's also why people don't know as much about CPTSD, is because they're the like insurance companies don't really recognize it. Mm-hmm.
Katie Grace: Okay, that makes so much sense. And I had no idea about that. Thank you for expanding on that. It's it's weird
Dr. Laura Anderson: Yeah.
Katie Grace: to like, I'm not excited about this diagnosis. I'm not excited to be living with this, but I am excited to be at least alive at this time where it's like, okay, I
Dr. Laura Anderson: Mm-hmm.
Katie Grace: am living at a time where there is more talk about it. There's more resources coming out. So, okay, that's
Dr. Laura Anderson: Yes. Yeah.
Katie Grace: really great to know. I feel like there will probably be so many listeners that resonate with this.
Dr. Laura Anderson: Yeah, yeah.
Katie Grace: I'm curious for those who don't know about you, your story. Could you share some of that? Because I know, you know,
Dr. Laura Anderson: Mm-hmm.
Katie Grace: it's also in your book, you have the combination of personal and professional experiences with religious trauma
Dr. Laura Anderson: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Katie Grace: and CPTSD.
Dr. Laura Anderson: Yeah, I mean the short version is I don't remember a time where I wasn't learning about God, being taught about God, being in church. I think the story goes like I was born on a Sunday and or or Tuesday and the next Sunday I was in church, you know, so it's like it's
Katie Grace: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Laura Anderson: In my bones. I grew up in what I would consider like a ministry family. My dad was a director at an evangelical kind of fundamentalist Christian camp. We lived on site. I did go to public school, which I think now I'm like that was like a saving grace. But at the time I was terrified about it because I didn't want to be influenced by my peers. I begged my parents to homeschool me for a variety of reasons that didn't work. And now I'm very glad. In addition, we were involved in a local church. I didn't love it. I did not love going to church, being involved in the youth group. I did it begrudgingly. but eventually after I was in high school, I I did get extremely involved. And I should say also during that time is when purity culture really started to come onto like the the main kind of platforms. And and what I mean by that is prior to like 1992, 1993, All of these rigid teachings about abstinence and virginity were really relegated to religious spaces. In 1992 and 1993, it started to cross into a secular kind of cross the secular barrier. And so we started to see these teachings in schools. We started to see legislation that came out about and we started to see pop stars, celebrities that were making virginity pledges. I I signed my virginity pledge when I was in seventh grade. I think it ended up on the national mall. Like there was was this whole thing, you know, where all these teens marched to Washington to like legislate for, you know, abstinence only sex ed in schools. And it passed. It it passed in when Bill Clinton was president. so that was the era that I was growing up in. I signed my pledge card. I was a late bloomer. I was like, I don't even like boys. Whatever. So it wasn't a big deal. but I was also as much as I was a bit resistant to like being involved in church, I also took everything to heart. And so I didn't want to follow the rules, but I did. Like I w because I was so scared of what would happen if I didn't. I I would tell on myself. I never even need I didn't need a curfew because like I I was gonna come home on time because I didn't want to face, you know, the wrath of what the punishment could be. Because
Katie Grace: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Laura Anderson: also if I did something wrong to like dishonor the rules, that was also dishonoring God. So there was a lot that was tied there, you know, natural teenage behavior was, you know, made to be this sin, you know, spiritualized into sin. and I kind of had this idea that, you know, once I graduated from high school, that's when I would really be sold out for God because that, you know, you heard that in people's stories. You know, they made this decision. God saved them from sex, drugs, and rock and roll. And I was like, good, I'll I'll be that way. I didn't do any sex, drugs, or rock and roll, but I still, you
Katie Grace: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Laura Anderson: know, I gave my life to God. You know, I started volunteering with the youth group. I eventually started working at the church that I was a part of. I was involved in like the young adults' ministry, I was on the worship team. I mean, really my entire life and identity was wrapped into this system. I realized a couple days into working at the church that there was some really weird dynamics going on. I didn't have language like spiritual abuse. That was not something I could even conceptualize. So at the time I called it church politics and and I noticed, you know, like there were like pastors were God and like they could get away with anything. I I remember one time I was accused of lying. Like I was flat out told like you lied about this and and I didn't. And in order to get out of that situation, I actually had to admit to what the pastor was accusing me of so that I could then start this repentance process even though I actually had done nothing wrong. And so There was many experiences like that where just a lot of power and control, you know, like even having worked there, like they had full control over how I spent all of my time, how I dressed, who I spent time with, who I dated, who I couldn't date, what movies I watched, what music I listened to, what, you know, like the time I would spend with God, you know, what the spiritual practices were or disciplines were that I was engaged in. And so everything became about that. And because I was a part of a larger church in Smaller community. It wasn't tiny, but it was a small, small enough community where everybody knew, like, if you go to this church, like this is, or you work at this church, like this is the big daddy church, right? So there was a lot of surveillance that happened as well. You know, I I remember I I did not drink at all, like didn't drink alcohol. But there was like this tanning oil that I used to make that had beer in it. And I remember being terrified of having to go. to I think just the grocery store to buy like the smallest pack of beer to put into my tanning oil. And I was like
Katie Grace: Yeah.
Dr. Laura Anderson: I I was just terrified that somebody would see me and think that, you know, I drank alcohol. Like and that would not have gone over well. Like that would have been a fireable offense if that had been seen. So I I worked there for quite some time. I volunteered for quite some time. Eventually I I I had my four year degree. I wanted to leave the community. I wasn't able to. I was blocked by a lot of people from being able to get out. And so I ended up quitting my job at the church, even though I still carried on. all of my volunteer duties and everything like that. I quit my job at the church and at maybe like twenty seven I got my first secular job. I was working in a college. and that was enough space for me to just be able to see that some of the things I had endured were not okay. Like my boss didn't care what I did on the weekend. she never made comments about what I wore. there was an excitement that she had about me kind of like climbing the ladder and maybe even being able to take over her position someday. Like that that's what she was kind of preparing me for. And it was just so different than what I had experienced where everything was scrutinized. There was only a certain level that I could get to because I was a woman. And so I I think just having that space away was really helpful. It also was what prompted me to go back to school to get my master's degree in marriage and family therapy. Now I did do a hybrid program where I would go on campus and then I would fly back home. That was like the most distance I could get at the time. And I look back now and I realized like I was setting myself up to be able to leave. at that point I didn't have a skill that was marketable to be able to go get a job. I had a job I had a degree in Christian ministry and Bible. So I could have worked at a church. And so
Katie Grace: Mm.
Dr. Laura Anderson: I got this degree in marriage and family therapy. And I knew like that would be the thing that allowed me to go wherever I wanted to, I could get a job. So eventually I did that. I moved to the south. I Continued my deconstruction and you know, kind of the rest is history. I can go into more or less detail, but that's how I grew up. And that is also then what shapes my work. Like part of my own process of healing was obviously doing a lot of cognitive deconstruction, but also understanding like how those messages lived in my body and what the impact of those were long term on myself, relationships, how I viewed the world. and and that was a much more lengthy process of of healing from that and the pain. pain and the the trauma really that had occurred as a result of growing up in a high control environment.
Katie Grace: Mm-hmm. man. Yeah, thank you for sharing all of that. I feel like it's it's definitely a story that so many people can also resonate with when we're just a lot of times we're we're born into this. And even if like you
Dr. Laura Anderson: Mm-hmm.
Katie Grace: said you weren't like totally into it, you know, when you were younger, but then it eventually
Dr. Laura Anderson: Yeah.
Katie Grace: like this was your normal. And then eventually,
Dr. Laura Anderson: Yes.
Katie Grace: you know, all of those messages that you've been hearing all your life, they really sunk in and they attached, and then you were all in. So
Dr. Laura Anderson: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Katie Grace: Yeah, it's and you don't always see that this is like the air that you're breathing or this like that story of like this is water.
Dr. Laura Anderson: Absolutely. Mm-hmm.
Katie Grace: when you were talking in your book about founding or co-founding the Religious Trauma Institute,
Dr. Laura Anderson: Mm.
Katie Grace: you were among the first therapists to your knowledge that were addressing
Dr. Laura Anderson: Mm-hmm.
Katie Grace: religious trauma and you were also not anti-religion. And I would love if
Dr. Laura Anderson: Mm-hmm.
Katie Grace: you could talk a little bit about that.
Dr. Laura Anderson: Yeah, I don't want to discredit any of the therapists or researchers that came before me. I definitely value their work and was foundational in parts of my own healing. but I started to recognize a trend that was happening among people that were working with survivors of high control religion, and that was this idea that you had to become an atheist as a part of your healing process. And I just like quickly saw how fundamentalist that could be. like a very prescribed path for healing. Healing. And I was kind of like, that's literally what people are coming out of is being told what they have to believe or what they cannot believe. And it also felt very irrelevant to my understanding of how trauma lives in the body. As a therapist, I am trained to kind of be like hands off on people's beliefs. Like I will support whatever you want. Like, my goal is not to get you to believe what I want you to believe. It's so that you can figure out what's best for you and really lean into that. And I felt like Like if I'm as a therapist working with clients coming out of high control religion saying you have to become an atheist or not believe in God or a secular humanist or whatever in order to heal, that just didn't feel effective. and so yeah, I I started with with some colleagues just recognizing like, hey, we can navigate religious trauma and that doesn't have to almost do anything with like what a person decides they want their spiritual path to be. now I think a lot of recovery work is figuring out What do I believe? Do I want to go to church? What it who is God? What does God mean to me? What does that look like in my life? But that's actually very different than healing or resolving how trauma lives in your body. one does not have to necessarily equal to the other. And so that's why even my company name, the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery, is designed because there is trauma resolution and there is then recovering from trauma, recovering from high control religion. And so I I I found it to be a much more kind of like palatable way for people to understand it because like like I ev I work with people who are deep within their religious sects or denominations and they find deep comfort in knowing that my goal is not to try to take them out of their church or to get them to quit their ministry role or to denounce their faith or their belief in God. Like that is too much. That's too big. That's too scary for a lot of people. And I I really respect that. Like everybody needs to have their own journey. So I think if if people are hearing people around them saying, like, in order to truly deconstruct, you need to believe these things or truly deconstruct these things or arrive at this point, to me, that should be a warning sign that you are entering into another system or relationship that has a lot of the same dynamics that you just came out of. Like are we actually accidentally re-traumatizing people by making that prescription?
Katie Grace: Exactly. Yeah, that so there's another guest on the podcast this season. I don't know if you've heard of her, but her name is Elise Hurd and she's based in Australia. Very familiar. Yeah,
Dr. Laura Anderson: That name sounds very familiar, yeah.
Katie Grace: she's based in Australia and she does work with people worldwide, but she's done a lot of research around cult exit counseling. And trying
Dr. Laura Anderson: Mm.
Katie Grace: to create trainings, coaching, and support for those practitioners and therapists who can support people so that they're not accidentally repeating what you were talking about, a
Dr. Laura Anderson: Mm-hmm.
Katie Grace: lot of the like high control or even like cult-ish patterns that their
Dr. Laura Anderson: Yes. Mm-hmm.
Katie Grace: clients are not clients that their patients may be coming out of. So yeah, I
Dr. Laura Anderson: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
Katie Grace: love that.
Dr. Laura Anderson: I think it's really common that when you have grown up in a high control system relationship institution, like you're not taught how to think. You're not taught critical thinking. You're not taught identity like your own identity and autonomy. It is very natural when you get out of a system or relationship like that to look for somebody else to replace what it is that you've lost. That is not a deficiency or something broken in you. It's just that's what is familiar and your nervous system gravitates towards that. That. So therapists, coaches, anybody who's in that supportive role has a very important job to not recreate that. Right. Like, I don't want to become somebody's like secular pastor. That would not be a good role for me because that's just recreating these dynamics that were harmful in the first place. So I can really appreciate anybody who's wanting to be intentional about not replacing that in somebody's life and then also recognizing it's really hard work. Like, To go from being fully dictated, like this is what you do and how you live your life, to absolutely nothing, no structure, you have to figure it out. Like that is hard, scary work. So I don't want to downplay it. it makes sense that people are looking for something to replace that, but really what needs to replace it is yourself, your own autonomy, your own values, your own kind of goals and your own identity.
Katie Grace: Yeah, one hundred percent. I know I think back on my own life and I am forever grateful for the therapist. I changed all the names in my memoir, but I call her Mabel.
Dr. Laura Anderson: Mm.
Katie Grace: And Mabel, she saved my life. And she was somebody
Dr. Laura Anderson: Yeah.
Katie Grace: who was able to come alongside me when I was still very, very, very steeped in the evangelical Christian, you know, world. And yet I was recognizing I have a lot of trauma that I need to deal with. And
Dr. Laura Anderson: Mm-hmm.
Katie Grace: She was able to, she she described it to me one time when I was actually interviewing her for the purpose of the book. She was like thinking back to when I first started seeing her in 2015. She was like, you were just like this little timid bunny. And she was like, I knew that I couldn't go too fast or throw too much at you because I might scare you away for good. And it was very helpful to me at that time that she was a Christian. She was a Christian though that I had never come across before. She, you know, d didn't seem like
Dr. Laura Anderson: Hm, yeah.
Katie Grace: a shame-based or a fear-based Christian. and she had a lot of understanding around religious trauma that ended up shaping my healing journey.
Dr. Laura Anderson: Yeah. Mm. Mm.
Katie Grace: But I wanna touch on something that you said that it it just all of this is really hard work. It's very messy, and there's a lot of layers that go into like unpacking all of this. And so I know In your book, you talk a lot about how our nervous systems often start experiencing trauma symptoms after we begin that
Dr. Laura Anderson: Mm-hmm.
Katie Grace: deconstructing process or the reconstructing process. And that's actually part of the healing journey, even though I think a lot of times for us it feels scary. It feels like something must be wrong. Or like, why am
Dr. Laura Anderson: Mm-hmm.
Katie Grace: I in all of this pain or dealing with all of this grief
Dr. Laura Anderson: Yeah.
Katie Grace: now? But I would love if you could share about that. process a little bit more
Dr. Laura Anderson: Mm-hmm.
Katie Grace: of like the high level of what could be going on with our nervous systems as we start to detangle it all. And then what are, you know, maybe like the the common or top methods of support that you have found the most helpful with your clients.
Dr. Laura Anderson: Yeah. So a little bit of kind of like neurophysiology of what happens when your body is in constant fight or flight. So our bodies are made to be able to withstand stress, danger in short spurts. Like we have rushes of adrenaline and other chemicals in our body that help to mobilize us, get us to safety, you know, keep us from not dying, you know, like if we're being chased by a tiger. We usually don't have to go to the restro use the restroom. We don't have to go s stop to get a burger. You know, like our body kind of shuts down whatever is necessary and focuses only on how do we stay alive in this situation. So that's a natural normal part of our physiology. We don't want that to go away. We always want that to work. The problem is when we are in situations that are consistently overwhelming, stressful, dangerous, like we talked about CPTSE, where there is this consistent, persistent threat and overwhelm, whether it's real or perceived or remembered, our body stays in that activated state. So it's it w it's kind of like the gas pedal is like down to the ground pretty much all of the time. We might look calm on the outside, but on the inside, it's like pedal to the middle. And what happens then is our body like braces. It kind of lives in like a perpetual set state of bracing. And sometimes you can literally see that in your body. You'll sli see people and they just look really tight. Maybe their shoulders are up or their arms are in. They have limited mobility. It's they're very choppy in their speech or their breath or how they interact with people. And that's not coming necessarily from like them being an actually rigid person. It's that is their body is so locked in on survival, they have limited resources outside of that. So then Let's say you get out of this situation, you start to realize, like, I'm safe, I'm no longer in that system, that relationship, that institution. My body is literally safe. My mind is safe. I've maybe found some support. I'm deconstructing. And all of a sudden your body starts to relax a little bit. I don't have to hold it all together so tightly. But what happens is all of that stuff that you've been holding in for years or decades starts to move back through your body. And that's where we start to see like very real physical symptoms, things like pain, chronic illness, chronic disease, sleeping issues, GI issues, autoimmune issues. We also start to see it show up in anxiety, depression, OCD, lots of mental health things that are going on, relational things, and it can feel really confusing because you're like, I'm safe. Like, I'm not in this situation anymore. Why is my body doing this? And I usually like to reframe that for clients as frustrating as it is, that is also an indicator that your body is starting to feel safe. And that means that everything that it's been holding in now has a chance to come out. Now, the unfortunate part about that is you can't really think it away. Understanding is great, insight is great. Being able to like parse through your beliefs and know what you believe and what you don't believe is very helpful. And I would say, even foundational for a lot of people, but that does not necessarily penetrate how all of that is actually living in your body, which is why we need more holistic approaches. And I don't mean like some sort of woo-woo practices necessarily, though if that's what you want, that's totally fine. But me holistic meaning involving the body and the brain, I whole bodied approaches. so that's that's where I train or I've done my training in, that's how I work with clients. It's also why I don't need clients to be non-religious. Like when we're working with trauma and how it's living in the body, it actually doesn't matter to me what you believe because that isn't necessarily impacting what is going on here. Sometimes it can be, but not all the time. and so does that answer that first part of the question? Okay.
Katie Grace: Yeah, absolutely.
Dr. Laura Anderson: the some of the there's there's many really amazing modalities that are now kind of out there that practitioners are using for healing. And I don't have just one way of like you have to do this type of work. in order to heal. Again, I'm I'm not fundamentalist about that. What I will say is that when we're looking at complex trauma, we do need a holistic approach, meaning that we're focusing both on the brain and the body. Obviously the brain is a part of the body, but in therapeutic terms, we want modalities that are top down. So we're foc there is narrative, there is talking through things, there is processing things, cognitive things, but we also need modalities that are bottom up, meaning we're looking at your nervous system. looking at your physiology, how that trauma is living in you and resolving it in your body as well as making meaning of all of these things in your mind. So that can look like somatic experiencing, brain spotting. Some EMDR therapists do some like somatic and attachment based EMDR therapy. That can be really great. Trauma-informed stabilization techniques or Janina Fisher's model is great. Somatic internal family systems is really great. In fact I found that to be particularly helpful when with people coming out of high control religion, the language of parts, so part of me feels this way, another part of me feels that way, feels really meaningful for a lot of people. that was the first modality that I did as a client was internal family systems. And to this day, I mean I still think like that. I process like that. It's extremely helpful. Those are kind of the top ones that I usually refer people to. But, you know, anything can be helpful. Like you you have to it has to work for you. I d I think like the biggest thing is just making sure that your body is involved in that treatment. and I and I think for a lot of people that are navigating complex trauma, having the brain pieces, understanding the nervous system, what has gone on, you know, what you believed, like that is all very important in healing too. We just don't want it to stay there. We want it to be able to include how it's living in your body.
Katie Grace: Mm. Yeah, that's a really important distinction because I think that a lot of us have this idea that deconstructing, even if it results in deconversion or not, it is like this idea that that would be the healing thing. But like
Dr. Laura Anderson: Yes, mm-hmm.
Katie Grace: you said, you can't think this away. Like as soon as you start to understand a lot of this, you can maybe like have more compassion for yourself and more understanding. But there is
Dr. Laura Anderson: Mm.
Katie Grace: gonna be a whole lot that comes out. And I think also, at least from what I found, the way that you can engage with your body and start engaging in some of those healing practices, you might just it might take time, right? Like it might be like your body is
Dr. Laura Anderson: Yes.
Katie Grace: capable. It has the capacity of doing something for a little while, but you can't push it too far. And then
Dr. Laura Anderson: Yes.
Katie Grace: whenever you feel like, okay, maybe I could step into, you know, let's try EMDR or let's try Reiki, like kind of stepping into things as time goes
Dr. Laura Anderson: Mm. Yeah. Yeah.
Katie Grace: on. Yeah.
Dr. Laura Anderson: Yeah, I think so. When we talked about trauma being anything that's too much too fast too soon or happens for too long, I didn't say like too much negative, too much bad, too much dangerous. Like too much of anything can be too much. Like sugar can be. It's great. Too much of it, not great, right? Like it has an adverse effect on your body. And so I think with healing, we also need to take that approach, right? We kind of go the opposite. So if trauma is anything that's too much too fast too soon, we can't approach healing in that same way. way or at that same speed. We have to like counter it with slowness and intention intentionality and building capacity and patience. And my clients hate that. They hate it. but Not that I I don't like rub things in their face, but I'm like, when you do it like this, it will work. And and it does. And it's not because like I have some magical powers, but it's because our body needs the chance to slow down, to catch up, to not be re-overwhelmed, to be building skills and resources and safety inside of you so that when you go through you know, reprocessing some of these things or even just handling day to day life triggers, stresses, things like that, you have different tools and skills. Than what you used to have. So I always tell people like we go slower at the beginning so that we can go faster. And I have found like unequivocally with my clients who are willing to go way slower than they even think that they need to go, eventually things start to click and they can go through things really at a pace that feels very comfortable to them. Yeah.
Katie Grace: Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. And that's and like you've said before, that's not always gonna be the same from person to person, you know? And like they
Dr. Laura Anderson: Right, yes.
Katie Grace: they could hit that point, you know, a year in or a month in or s or even longer.
Dr. Laura Anderson: Yes. Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. I I think of like two clients that I started working with roughly at the same time. And one of them, you know, they'd been to therapy before. they'd done some great work, but they were just very like, I I am in this, I want to like, you know, be in my body, I'm not afraid of this. And I look at, you know, like the last six months and it's like they've been able to make really quick progress because of where their nervous system started at and some of the work they'd done before. Whereas another person is like n not that not it's It's not a race or anything, but they're just at a very different place because we're still like tiptoeing even into the body. And that's okay. There is nothing wrong with that. That's what therapy is for. But it is, you know, like it's just dependent on a variety of factors, not better, not worse, just different. And your history plays into it, your genetics plays into it, your current support plays into it, like your where you're living, your other daily stressors, like all of that plays into how fast you can do this work. But the goal isn't to do it fast. It's to like do it in a way that makes sense to your nervous system.
Katie Grace: Yeah, exactly. And only only you will be able to tell that, you as the person, right? And it's
Dr. Laura Anderson: Yes. Mm-hmm.
Katie Grace: so it's so incredible when you actually start tuning into yourself and your body and you hear
Dr. Laura Anderson: Mm-hmm.
Katie Grace: your own voice maybe for the first time and you start identifying emotions and allowing space for them. And I think that I know that you share many pieces of your journey in your book, but I think it's safe to say that what you've experienced and what I know I've experienced and what's in my memoir. It's so many different waves of grief that come
Dr. Laura Anderson: Mm-hmm.
Katie Grace: and go. But I think at this point in my life I can recognize when I'm in a wave of grief that like, okay,
Dr. Laura Anderson: Yeah.
Katie Grace: I understand why this is here, why it's come up. I also recognize that it's not going to feel this way forever. And I
Dr. Laura Anderson: Yeah.
Katie Grace: have like this rising confidence in myself to be able to get through it now. And I know that
Dr. Laura Anderson: Hmm. Yeah.
Katie Grace: there's going to be joy on the other side. I know that I'm going to experience like freedom and beauty and all of the the beautiful parts of healing, but grief is also a part of that healing process.
Dr. Laura Anderson: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yes. Yeah, I think so much of trauma recovery is grief work. It just, you know, like as you start to realize, like here's the experience that I missed out on, or here's who I had to be in order to survive this, or, you know, these were the relationships that I wish I could have had, but I wasn't allowed to, or the education I wish I had, but I wasn't allowed to. All of that is just filled with so much grief. And it is not meaning like you have to spend every day for the rest of your life wallowing in sadness, but I think the grief actually honors what the experience. experience the what the missed experience was. It tells us like that was important. And sometimes we can go back and recreate some of those experiences as a part of the grieving process. And other times we have to learn to come to a place of acceptance that we would might never get that experience. We don't have to be okay with it. We were just going like, it sucks. Like it didn't It happened or it didn't happen and that sucks. And it sucks that we can't change it. and so yeah, I think I I remember a colleague of mine said once, like, trauma work is grief work and I that's always stuck with me because I I think that is so real.
Katie Grace: Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. I'm thinking through as we're bringing this conversation for a landing, there's I mean, there's a million things that I could keep asking you and keep talking to you about. I love this conversation so much. But I think what what would be like one of the biggest things that you would want to tell our listeners if they are perhaps just starting that trauma
Dr. Laura Anderson: Mm.
Katie Grace: work and experiencing that grief journey, and it's a lot and it can be overwhelming.
Dr. Laura Anderson: Yeah. Yeah, kind of piggybacking a little bit on what we said earlier. I think the tendency when you come out of a high control religion or cult fundamentalism is to like dive into everything, your deconstruction process, maybe deconverting into doing all the things that you never got to do before, into like all like just overhauling your life. And that is super normal, super natural to do. But we can inadvertently recreate systems of power and control. We can inadvertently recreate stress and overwhelm and fear and things like that. And so my invitation to everybody is like, be patient with yourself. Slow down. Like you you have the rest of your life to do all the things, to read all the books, to listen to the podcast, to unscramble everything. Like we will get there. it's normal if your whole life and personality becomes deconstruction for a while. but
Katie Grace: Yeah.
Dr. Laura Anderson: but also like give yourself permission to live, to grieve, to be in relationships with other people. Like I think we can't underestimate how total a high control religion like takes over. So when you leave it, it is like a total overhaul. But also, you know, we have time to figure out what that is. So, you know Pick some questions that you wanna start working through. Maybe, you know, pick some pick a therapist to start just reading about or you know, looking at their work online or something. Like you don't have to figure everything out. And also like take the time pressure off too. Like we were talking about with therapy. Like I'll have some clients who are like, all right, I I can I can do this for like six months and then I should be good. And I'm like, okay, like, you know, and and turns out six months is usually not long enough to untangle decades of trauma. Right. But like give yourself time to work through this. And every little step counts. I I use the analogy of like, how do you eat an elephant, like one bite at a time? And I know that can feel overwhelming, but every bite or every step counts. And so yeah, like I I just like to encourage people to slow down. You don't have to figure everything out. And then also find ways to live. Because if we only have this one life to live, like we should live it. You know, that's like the whole goal of healing and and leaving systems like this is to be able to live something differently. So find the things that bring you joy, find the things that brand you bring you relief. Find you find things that, you know, you can just breathe a little bit easier. this can like healing doesn't have to be hard and messy all the time. Sometimes it can be really fun. You know, going into a bookstore and seeing like what sounds interesting, not just going to the religious section, going into a clothing store and like what do I like? You know, if it doesn't have to be a turtleneck and baggie, maybe I like something else. Like those are those are some fun things too. So yeah, let yourself engage across the spectrum spectrum of you know of what healing looks like. but do it at a pace that's manageable for you.
Katie Grace: Mm-hmm. I love that so much. Thank you. Thank you for this conversation
Dr. Laura Anderson: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Katie Grace: and for the work that you're doing consistently to support people. It's highly, highly necessary. And I know that there are so many of us out there that really need this. So I'm just I'm thankful for your time coming
Dr. Laura Anderson: Yeah. Mm.
Katie Grace: onto the show as well.
Dr. Laura Anderson: I'm so glad to be able to do this. I always love being it's I love that podcasts you get have a reach to people that you may never be able to come in contact with, you know, in real life. But like, podcasts were so influential in my own process of deconstructing and not feeling alone. When I did my deconstruction work, social media did not exist. And so there was a long time where I thought I might be the only person in this world that is going through this. And that's a very isolating thing. And high control religion makes you think that, right? If you're asking questions or something wrong with you, not the system. And so when social media started to become a place where people connected and podcasts started to come out, I just remember feeling so much relief of like, there are other people that are going through this. And so I always look at the like doing podcasts as like a way that I can give back something that was so important to me in my own healing, like knowing other people have it this experience and and you're not alone, like and you will make it through. There there are moments of lightness and ease that are awaiting. So I'm grateful for the opportunity to do this.
Katie Grace: wonderful. I'm so glad. And that actually mentioning
Dr. Laura Anderson: Yeah.
Katie Grace: that community is a perfect segue into what I wanted to share with the listeners at the very end here is that if you have loved this episode of the Reconstructing Podcast, and if you're finding yourself like me with a million questions and you wish that the conversation didn't have to end, I would love you to come to sit at the table, which is a virtual space for community that I am just now starting. the table is for anyone who is curious. questioning their belief systems, healing from fear-based or high control religions, and figuring out what comes next. So throughout each month, we are gathering together, usually with a book club. So we're going through a solid resource around these topics and then we're having a monthly discussion about it. And then when we're lucky, we get to also talk with an author or a speaker with expertise in that area. So if you would like to pull up a seat at the table, you can find all the information on that with the links in the show notes or just go to bkadygrace dot com and Dr. Laura with all of the work that you offer where would you recommend people start if they want to know more about you and your work and I'll have all that in the show notes as well.
Dr. Laura Anderson: Sure. Well, I'm most active on Instagram at Dr. Laura E. Anderson. I also have a company which I know you mentioned at the very beginning. It's called the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery. And they we operate as coaches, which allows us to work with people wherever you live, whether it's in the United States, outside of the United States. And we specialize in working with people coming out of high control religion, cults, fundamentalism, purity culture, adverse religious experiences, and religious trauma. So yeah, all the practitioners there are so fabulous. you can find us at trauma resolution and recovery dot com or follow us at Instagram trauma resolution and recovery every practitioner offers a free inquiry call so if it is something that you're looking for resources you're wanting to work with somebody individually doing some of that body-based trauma resolution work I would highly recommend connecting with us there or you know All those like all the links to CTRR is also in my profile, so find one of us and you'll be ge be connected to everything.
Katie Grace: fantastic. That makes me so excited just hearing about that. I love that people have like one place they can go to and get a wealth of knowledge and resources. That's amazing. well,
Dr. Laura Anderson: Yeah. Yeah. Mm hmm. Yeah.
Katie Grace: thank you so much again for your time.
Dr. Laura Anderson: Yes, thanks for having me.