Elizabeth Hill: I grew up in terror that at
Katie Grace: Yeah.
Elizabeth Hill: any moment Armageddon's gonna happen. My father's gonna die. I don't know if I'm gonna live or not. I'm trying to be good. police are gonna come and arrest us because we were witnesses. I would be like, okay, we have the woods. Where can I hide in the woods? I should really like build a bunker for myself. Like, we really should have a bunker out there
Katie Grace: Yeah. Alright, welcome everybody to the very first episode of the Reconstructing Podcast. I can't believe I just said those words out loud. It is the first episode, and I'm so thrilled to have you all here. And it just feels surreal to be like sitting here for this first episode with my publisher. And so I get to introduce you all to Elizabeth B. Hill. She is the CEO and founder of Greenheart Living Press. And she is publishing my book, which will be out in December, Spirit of Fear. And Elizabeth has her own close ties to religious trauma, coming out of high control environments and healing and navigating all of that. And she herself has a lot of mindfulness training, trauma-informed skills that have informed her coaching practices, which have been quite invaluable to me in my writing process. So Liz, welcome to the show. I'm so happy that you're here.
Elizabeth Hill: I'm so happy to be here too. When you came to me with your story and you talked with me, I went, I can't believe how many similarities there are. It was really quite intense to be reading your writing and all of that. And I'm like, my goodness, she's really is she in my head? Is she writing my book? So it's an honor to be here and to talk about my story with you.
Katie Grace: That's amazing. Yeah, I I wanted to share a little bit of the backstory of how we even got connected. Is that okay? Yeah.
Elizabeth Hill: Hmm. Yes, please.
Katie Grace: Amazing. So the the long wild story condensed into a version, I think, for us would be that I in April of 2026, so this year, I was invited by a friend who was like co-hosting a one-day retreat about like empowering women. So, and I told her at the time, I don't think I can go. The the ticket cost was like above, you know, what I could afford at the time. And so she just told me she was like, but I can't get you out of my head. I really feel like you should be there and I will comp your ticket. I was like, well, okay. So I go and I had a wonderful time. You know, it was a really great day. But the number one connection that I made that day was with an author who was there. She had like a little table set up. And she was selling her books. So we got to talking. I was like, I'm a an author as well. I'm writing a book. And we're talking. There's a lot of overlap to our stories. then she was like, we should grab coffee sometime. So from that connection, fast forward a week later, I'm grabbing coffee with this author, and she and I are talking about each of our books. And she just says, I just keep thinking of this publisher. She was like, I didn't end up working with her, but I think I would want to for my next book. But I just think you would be a great fit for her. And so she tells me all about Greenheart Living Press. And she had your phone number and she was like, let me connect you. So then a week after that, I've got a phone call with you. And all of a sudden we're talking. And like you said, there's so much overlap to our stories that and not only our personal stories, but Greenheart Living specializes, right, in like personal development stories, memoirs specifically. So it was just perfect.
Elizabeth Hill: Mm-hmm. Yes. It feels like so many synchronicities happened to bring us together. That's what it feels like to be.
Katie Grace: Exactly. I was like, well, the universe could not be, you know, opening doors more wide open. So I'm so happy that we've connected
Elizabeth Hill: Right.
Katie Grace: and in the process so far with your coaching and helping me through, you know, finishing the manuscript and publishing now, we've mainly focused our time on my book, but I'm really excited to dive into more of your story because I really only know like little bits and pieces.
Elizabeth Hill: Sometimes I feel like I only know little bits and pieces. Isn't that funny
Katie Grace: Ha ha ha.
Elizabeth Hill: how life is? It's like, what do I remember? Okay.
Katie Grace: Well, especially when you live a life that feels like you've lived multiple lives in one. It's like, okay, which which version of myself am I pulling from here?
Elizabeth Hill: It's so true. It's funny that because that's the way that I identify myself really is like I've gone through so many different versions of being me and who I am in the world. And it's funny because I live in the same town I grew up in, right? I actually live right here. There's a lot of things that are very similar in my life, but just who I am and my internal like architecture basically and the way that my brain thinks. And who I am in the world has shifted so much throughout my life that it it feel I look back at who I was as a kid and in my teens and I go, Who who was that person? It's wild.
Katie Grace: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I resonate with that so deeply. I'm not in the exact same town, but Colorado has mainly been my home and just
Elizabeth Hill: Mm-hmm.
Katie Grace: sort of bounced all around it. But yeah, it's weird. It's like if we didn't have photos or, you know, even video
Elizabeth Hill: Mm.
Katie Grace: of some of those like times of our lives, it's or journal entries, you know, it it would be kind of hard to like fully remember what what those versions of us were like. why don't we kind of segue into, you know, starting with Wherever you want to start in your story, you could start all the way from the beginning, you know, in childhood or wherever you'd like. But if you could just tell us a little bit about your like personal history with high control religion, maybe we start there and then how
Elizabeth Hill: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Katie Grace: that impacted you going forward into adulthood.
Elizabeth Hill: Yes. So I was raised a Jehovah's Witness and I became a witness. I believe I was eight years old when my mother got baptized and we started not being able to celebrate holidays or things like that. And we started going that was the year where we went and met with my teacher before the school year to explain what you know that we did wouldn't
Katie Grace: Mm.
Elizabeth Hill: be participating in holidays and you know, basically witnessing to the teacher also, like to explain what was.
Katie Grace: Two and one.
Elizabeth Hill: What was two in one, right? Like here's a brochure, right? So we had a lot of publications. and it was also the time when I started going door to door, talking about you know, handing out Watchtowers and Awakes and all of that. but I do remember time before when we were celebrating holidays and when we weren't in that religion. I left when I was, I believe I was 20, like 19 or 20, like right on the line there. And I believed it. Like the entire time that we were in it, I believed it a hundred percent. There wasn't
Katie Grace: Mm.
Elizabeth Hill: a time like I didn't grow up thinking questioning it or being like, this doesn't make sense. Like I was like hook, line and sinker. Like whatever the expression
Katie Grace: Yeah.
Elizabeth Hill: is, I was in it. and when I became So it was in high school, I started doing what they call auxiliary pioneering, which is spending a certain amount of time going door to door. and then my senior year in high school, I actually only went to school half time. And the other time I spent going door to door. And then after I would did I spent, I think it was a year and a half where I was a full-time pioneer. I also had a part-time job. at an eye doctor's. but I went door to door a lot. and my childhood was basically there was no time for anything other than going to school. Go on Saturdays we went door to door. I had like an afternoon free on Saturday. Sunday we went to the meeting. And it was, you know, two hours. And then Sunday afternoon we probably did some family type things or all of that. but every night after school we were preparing for meetings. I had meetings Tuesday night and Thursday night that would go very late. So I would always be tired. You know, I never got enough
Katie Grace: Wow.
Elizabeth Hill: sleep my whole childhood, because we were always always busy with something.
Katie Grace: Mm.
Elizabeth Hill: and we also had a family study where we were reading the Bible and whatever publication that you know the witnesses recommended. and so it was weird when I left because which is a whole, you know, a whole I'll get into it, but like the biggest thing when I left after I recovered from my mental breakdown, because I had a total mental breakdown, like real.
Katie Grace: Yeah.
Elizabeth Hill: and as a social worker, I'm calling it a mental breakdown too.
Katie Grace: Yeah.
Elizabeth Hill: that The biggest thing for me I realized I was like, what do I do with all this time?
Katie Grace: Hmm.
Elizabeth Hill: And I was working full time and going to college.
Katie Grace: Mm-hmm. And yet this was like a
Elizabeth Hill: Both.
Katie Grace: wide open schedule for you.
Elizabeth Hill: Yeah. I was like, what is this? Like it was really bizarre. and so that's, you know, when I heard, you know, that it's this high control, right? It's like very when I heard that expression of what it was, I was, that is what it was. so it's affected my life in a lot of ways in that I basically had to reconfigure my mental thoughts. Right. So I had a lot of negative thoughts, a lot of like self-hatred, thinking I was like just sinful and terrible. And when I look at what I was as a kid, I was like, what did I ever do that was sinful or terrible? I was just a person. Like I wasn't even like anything. Like I was pretty good kid. But I grew up thinking I was this terrible, terrible person. And so I had to reconstruct my brain. in a lot of ways, so that I didn't have this just flood of thoughts. And over time, I mean, so I left when I was nineteen or twenty. I am forty-seven now. It's been a long time
Katie Grace: Mm-hmm.
Elizabeth Hill: since then. but it is it's been a it has been a process of rebuilding my my spiritual self, my bel belief in God and the divine. my mental health, like my my how I view myself and all of that. and my father was not a witness and is not a witness and my mother was, which was interesting. But my father, you know, for a while is like, why did this guy let us do this? Right? Like how did he let this happen? and I've come to recognize that my father liked us being out of the house. He
Katie Grace: Mm.
Elizabeth Hill: had a hard time with with us loud children. You know. It's it's just me and my brother.
Katie Grace: How many how many siblings do you have? It's just me and my brother. Okay.
Elizabeth Hill: but we, you know, we were loud. My dad, you know, for I won't go into his whole thing, but like he was probably like, This is great. Like, please go do anything with them that's not in our house.
Katie Grace: Mm-hmm.
Elizabeth Hill: You know? and he so he was His father was a Methodist minister. And so he was very anti-religion as a result of his father being a minister. His reaction to that was
Katie Grace: Interesting.
Elizabeth Hill: like, nope. So, right?
Katie Grace: Okay.
Elizabeth Hill: and so he he he always will say that the river is his religion. So he would go down to the river and like sit there, like paddle in the river and like nature. So yeah.
Katie Grace: Wow. my goodness. I thank you for sharing that like beginning of all of this. I have a a million questions I'm writing down over here on this side. I'm just every single point
Elizabeth Hill: Yeah.
Katie Grace: I'm like, I want to new no more.
Elizabeth Hill: Right.
Katie Grace: Okay, so you remember your life before eight years old to some degree, and you remember holidays, you remember birthdays, that kinda like what life was like before. do you remember any sort of like jarring juxtaposition with like the switch at eight years old? Or do you feel like it just kind of flowed seamlessly into like, this is just our new routine now?
Elizabeth Hill: It's so weird. It it wasn't jarring at all. Which is also weird and I feel like it should be, but it wasn't. I remember in third grade I would pretend that I was a witch and that I could turn people into frogs if they were bad. And I had like all these things about spells and I would like do all this stuff. And then all of a sudden it was not good for me to pretend I was a witch anymore, because that was like demonic. And so
Katie Grace: Mm-hmm.
Elizabeth Hill: I I was not allowed to pretend I was a witch anymore.
Katie Grace: Mm-hmm.
Elizabeth Hill: but somehow I got over that. I think I think it was such a welcoming community and everybody was like I had made good friends there. Like everyone was so nice to us. Like I think
Katie Grace: Mm-hmm.
Elizabeth Hill: I think that was appealing. I
Katie Grace: Mm.
Elizabeth Hill: it's it's weird for me to think back on that time because I don't It's also funny because there's another aside book. My mother's had a friend who at the same time became a Scientologist, which is like so weird. Cause
Katie Grace: Yeah.
Elizabeth Hill: there are a lot of similarities between like not in the teachings, but in that the way that they're some of the ways that they're structured and how that there's not a lot of time and they keep people so busy. and this idea that we have to save the world from themselves, right? There was a lot of pressure
Katie Grace: Mm-hmm.
Elizabeth Hill: to if we don't tell people, you know, about Armageddon coming, we can't say we have to save them. It's our job. Meanwhile, I'm living in a house with my father who you know, I'm being told is evil. Not they wouldn't say evil. They would say he's he's working for Satan.
Katie Grace: Mm.
Elizabeth Hill: And anyone I go to school with is also, if they are being nice to me, they are working for Satan. And that's the only reason they're being nice to me. Like what? What a trip is that? What?
Katie Grace: Hmm, yeah. It's that's a total, total mind trip. Like to try to process that as a child when already as a child everything is so black and white, everything is very dualistic. And then I think to me that makes sense that maybe this wouldn't have been so jarring for you because I think as a kid, at least around that age, it does flow right into this really nice, seamless structure, like, okay, I have right and wrong now, I've got black and white thinking, like it there are these boxes and you knew where you fit, but it would also be so wild to be like living in a home where because cause for me I can resonate with like I had so much fear of anybody outside my home, my church home. I mean, those were like the two places where I reside, you know, resided most of my time. And anybody else was like the other. And they were to be feared, or if I had a friendship with them, it was for the sole purpose of converting. And for you, I'm curious, like with your dad, you know, being so different from your mom, she she was not a Jehovah's Witness when they got married. So do you remember your dad ever like vocalizing that he didn't agree with this or felt weird about it, or you just knew that he just was different?
Elizabeth Hill: I literally don't remember him ever protesting that we were doing this. Like I don't
Katie Grace: Okay. Yeah.
Elizabeth Hill: remember it. That doesn't mean they didn't have those conversations. Like I d Right. I
Katie Grace: Mm behind closed doors. Right. Yeah.
Elizabeth Hill: just I don't ever remember even him being like like teasing us for it or anything. I
Katie Grace: Mm. Yeah.
Elizabeth Hill: he was not home a lot. And so he doesn't like he He was he was living there, like he lived with us. He worked, he provided for us. but he makes a joke. He goes, these people that that have these these kids, it looks so hard. I I'm glad I never did it. Like
Katie Grace: Mm-hmm.
Elizabeth Hill: he makes a joke that he didn't have children because he wasn't there. So so I don't know.
Katie Grace: Mm.
Elizabeth Hill: it's What's w what I re what I feel like, and it's, you know, I've tried to figure this whole thing out. Like what happened? Like in reflection, it seem it felt like I had three parents. It feels like I had my father and I had a mother. And then I had this religion. And the religion was basically like men in suits, because it's men in suits that are making the decision. The women aren't allowed to make any decisions, right? It was a very patriarchal. when you're Jehovah's Witness, at least at the time I was a witness, if a woman prayed in front of a man, they had to wear a head covering, right? And they had, you know, they had to wear skirts. They couldn't wear pants. Now I have heard that they can wear s pants now. Very exciting.
Katie Grace: Ha ha ha.
Elizabeth Hill: Very exciting news. I've heard that it was like a couple of years ago, they're like I was allowed to wear pants when I wasn't at a meeting or going door to door, but I had to wear a skirt in those instances. But I've heard the recent thing was that men were allowed to grow a beard and women were allowed to wear pants. And this was like a couple of years ago. So it's like nice. Yeah.
Katie Grace: heard that as well. And I heard it was also like very like dependent geographically where you are. That's the
Elizabeth Hill: yeah.
Katie Grace: person I heard that from at least was saying that. But yeah. Yeah.
Elizabeth Hill: Right, right, probably. Right. I remember someone wearing a pantsuit that was coming that wasn't baptized, but she was a woman cut like attending because she was studying and she wore a pantsuit to a meeting and everyone was like, We have to talk to her. We have to have a convers it was like a very beautiful pantsuit. And I remember
Katie Grace: Mm-hmm.
Elizabeth Hill: wearing culottes. I remember wearing coolot like what? And also not being allowed to wear culottes after a little bit of time.
Katie Grace: okay, so the high control environment, it was high control over what you wore and how you spent every moment of your waking time, even how long your waking time lasted, much more than what a lot of kids experience. And, you know, what you could be around, what you could be playing, no more pretending witch games or anything.
Elizabeth Hill: Sad.
Katie Grace: how do you feel like fear was impacting you throughout like childhood and adolescence? Do you feel like you remember feeling afraid of any of these things in particular, you know, outside of those confines? Or do you feel like that was something you became more aware of later in life?
Elizabeth Hill: was I remember being afraid basically all of the time.
Katie Grace: Okay.
Elizabeth Hill: So I remember my my childhood feels like just I was afraid the entire time. And I like everything. I liked going to school because the weekend I'd have to go door to door and that was terrifying. It's like actually it was terrifying for me to go door to door. you know, people don't like it when they come to your house. They will s I had so many people swear at me even when I was a little child. Like, and I I do not blame them for whatever they did. at the door because I don't like people coming to my house either. But, you
Katie Grace: Mm-hmm.
Elizabeth Hill: know, it was like I saw naked people come to the door because they thought it was funny, right? Like, you know, and
Katie Grace: Yeah. Wow.
Elizabeth Hill: you know, so I don't remember this, but this I have been told happened to me. This is something that somebody came to the door with a gun when I went to a door with a woman who was a witness that she was a black woman, So I don't know if the person was reacting with a gun because it was a black person at their door or if it was because we were witnesses or what was it? And I don't remember that happening. But my my brother and my mom told me that happened to me.
Katie Grace: Yeah.
Elizabeth Hill: right. So you know, I I went to where I live is in Avon, Connecticut. It's a very peaceful rural place, right? Where I grew up was at the time was five acres of gorgeous, beautiful, pristine forest with a stream and a river. Right. I used to play in the basement. And I would play at one point I would actually play out concentration camp. Like I would play in the basement because and my mom said I knew you were doing that, but I thought you needed to process it. And so you were downstairs like pretending you were hiding from the Nazis because witnesses were one of the, you know, religions that were persecuted then, right? So, but it's like I had this beautiful, peaceful place I grew up in, really.
Katie Grace: Yeah.
Elizabeth Hill: And very low crime, you know, anything like that. But I grew up in terror that at
Katie Grace: Yeah.
Elizabeth Hill: any moment Armageddon's gonna happen. My father's gonna die. I don't know if I'm gonna live or not. I'm trying to be good.
Katie Grace: Mm-hmm.
Elizabeth Hill: the police are gonna come and like arrest us because we were witnesses. we could be thrown in a concentration camp. I would think over and over, I would be like, okay, we have the woods. Where can I hide in the woods? I should really like build a bunker for myself. Like, we really should have a bunker out there
Katie Grace: Yeah.
Elizabeth Hill: and like play it out in my head.
Katie Grace: Yeah. my god. Yeah.
Elizabeth Hill: You know? Yeah, it's like horrible. Like I
Katie Grace: I know, it is so horrible. It's so horrible and when you say these things out loud and you're the one who lived it, it's like it at least for me, I feel like I already knew that was horrible, but saying it out loud just really, really puts it out there into like how bizarre and abnormal and wild that was. I mean, because like you know, with reading through my story, like my you know, I grew up for part of my life, my family were like doomsday preppers and we had, you know, our basement stocked with canned goods
Elizabeth Hill: Mm-hmm.
Katie Grace: and giant blue barrels of water. We were ready for the end of the world. And it's it's really, really a surreal experience as a kid to think constantly about how your life here could just end. End at any moment and not even just because of death. I feel like death is a hard concept for a child to grasp in itself, but that's a very normal concept that we have to deal with as humans. But then when you're thinking about my life could end because it's taken from me, or because I'm being targeted, I'm being persecuted, or Jesus is coming back, or you know, or or Satan has come, the Antichrist has come, Armageddon, the whole thing.
Elizabeth Hill: Mm-hmm.
Katie Grace: It's really, really weird to be living that sort of reality all the time.
Elizabeth Hill: And I think it's, you know, and this is something I I thought about a lot in reading your story too, is this idea of what motivates people to do this to their children. It's not like they're trying to like harm us. It's that they really, I mean, from my par my father or my mother's perspective, she really wanted us to have this very nice life. She was really a hippie, like a flower child. Like she wanted us to live on paradise on earth, man.
Katie Grace: Yeah.
Elizabeth Hill: She wanted everything to be nice and peaceful and good. And she wanted to protect us from, you know, she knew a lot of people that had bad things happen to them, or, you know, and she just wanted us to have some kind of sense of goodness and to make right decisions and all of that. And I don't think people, like as an adult, you're able to kind of decide what you. what parts you believe or not. You have a concept of the world of why you're doing something, right? When you're a child, it's it's a very different
Katie Grace: You don't have that.
Elizabeth Hill: way. It is like you said, black and white thinking. That's how kids think. It's like, right or wrong. Very clear. And where do I fit into the world? Okay. It's like, I have a sense of belonging here. That's great. Right? And if I do this, this will happen and then everything will be okay. Right. Like these are the instructions.
Katie Grace: Yeah, yeah.
Elizabeth Hill: And Yeah. So cause I
Katie Grace: Yeah.
Elizabeth Hill: have like I think about I had this moment when I was driving my daughter to this was when she was younger. Both my kids are adults now, but when my daughter was younger, she I was dropping her off at a friend's house. And we got we were driving down the road and I'm like, why is this house so why is this familiar? This road is so familiar. And I started feeling like ill, like i
Katie Grace: Mm.
Elizabeth Hill: ill as we're driving, and I went, my goodness. I'm on the road that was the first place I talked at a door. And
Katie Grace: Wow.
Elizabeth Hill: I was like, my goodness. And it went fine. And the person was nice to me. It was like, you cute little kid or whatever. You know, it was fine. But I was so terrified and always feeling like if I didn't speak, like every once in a while I had to speak at a door, or else God's coming down for me, or whatever the thing is. And
Katie Grace: Yeah.
Elizabeth Hill: I, you know, I go, how like I would never do that to a child. But never say, hey, hey, hey, kids, you gotta go up to this door and experience this like terror. But it's also I didn't feel like I had to, right? Like
Katie Grace: Mm.
Elizabeth Hill: I try to have compassion for my mother, you know, try to have compassion for parents that feel like they have to do that to save their kid.
Katie Grace: Right.
Elizabeth Hill: And I'm so glad I don't feel that way. Like,
Katie Grace: Yes.
Elizabeth Hill: thank goodness my br I was able to have a brain shift to not feel like. Feel like that was necessary, you know?
Katie Grace: Yeah. Well, because that that fear, like we've been talking about that fear is such a powerful motivator and it's such a powerful like really to me, I think it's like the foundation of these high control religions, high control environments, because you will do, especially as a child and a young adolescent, you will do whatever it is that you're told in order to try to save yourself and the ones that you care the most about in the world, you know, from
Elizabeth Hill: Mm-hmm.
Katie Grace: such horrible, horrible fates. And then even as an adult, like you said, your parents, my parents, you know, parents who really genuinely feel afraid that this is the life, the afterlife that I need to save my child from, then yeah, if I still believed the way that I did, the way that I was brought up, then I would, you know, probably be passing those things along to my son, which thankfully I'm not. But I am so curious to hear if so from age eight till about nineteen or twenty. Right. This is the very structured religion and environments that you are brought up in. And then you talked about how you ended up leaving around that time, but first there was a really giant mental breakdown. So I'm curious if you
Elizabeth Hill: Mm-hmm.
Katie Grace: whatever you want to share, whatever you feel comfortable expanding on, how did you get there?
Elizabeth Hill: Yeah, so it's it's wild. So it really was in a course of a month that I went from being a full-time pioneer to all of a sudden being like, This is not true. And my brain just like at the time I thought I was insane and I thought I was bipolar, which does run in my family. My grandfather was bipolar and I thought I was bipolar. And so I thought that it was me being mentally ill that was causing this. But in reflection looking back, I realized my whole brain and everything I believed was completely like pulled out from like out from under me that it was it was like a some kind of thing that was impacted by me losing my entire identity. And so what started happening was well One part of the story is I started dating someone who I love very much. And he was he actually told me later that he was going to leave the religion. He had made a decision. And his brother was going to leave the religion too. And they decided they were going to start try to date someone that they could take out, that they could save from the religion and get them out. I
Katie Grace: Mm-hmm.
Elizabeth Hill: did not know this. He was very good at tricking me into not knowing this either. I never would have guessed that when I started dating him. Even though there was deceit involved, I am eternally grateful to this guy.
Katie Grace: Mm.
Elizabeth Hill: Like I think about it at least once a week. I'm like, thank God for him. Thank
Katie Grace: Mm.
Elizabeth Hill: God for him. Because I I can't imagine how I would have left. Now it wasn't him convincing me to leave. It didn't, it wasn't that. It was. I started having these like little conversations with people and things started just awarenesses. I went and it started feeling like I was getting signs to leave, like spiritual signs to get out.
Katie Grace: Mm.
Elizabeth Hill: I went to a door once where the person at the door said to me something about like, people that have HIV and AIDS, it's God's punishing them by giving them this. And I had that conversation, I was like, I don't believe that. Like, I don't think God would do that. And
Katie Grace: Mm.
Elizabeth Hill: then as I was, you know, driving away from there, I'm like, I kind of feel like our religion would teach that. And I was like, I don't agree with that at all.
Katie Grace: And you're sitting with that discomfort, which is
Elizabeth Hill: Right.
Katie Grace: a lot, yeah.
Elizabeth Hill: Right. So it was things like that. And there was a lot of these little, little things, right, that added up to all of a sudden me just then I saw somehow hypocrisy in the religion, you know, I saw certain things that I didn't think were fair, that were starting to like build up and add up. And what what it looked like on the you know, what actually ended up happening was I did kind of get into a manic thing where I wasn't I wasn't sleeping. I somehow thought I could work full time, go door to door full time, be in college because I had gone started going to college, go to college full time, and then work another job. Like it was literally not possible. And I had set it up so I was up all week, except for like two days, two hours or something.
Katie Grace: Mm.
Elizabeth Hill: And then the weekend I could sleep. So when you do that, and you're also taking psych medications, I totally started blacking out. I was blacking
Katie Grace: Mm-hmm.
Elizabeth Hill: out and things happened that I don't remember, right? Like
Katie Grace: Mm.
Elizabeth Hill: my roommate said I I tried to jump out a window and she tried
Katie Grace: Wow.
Elizabeth Hill: to keep me from jumping out a window and then I attacked her and harmed her. I don't actually know if that story is true.
Katie Grace: Mm.
Elizabeth Hill: Because she was someone that liked to make up stories and she was a witness and she also kind of needed me to leave the apartment. So
Katie Grace: Mm.
Elizabeth Hill: it's possible that that's not true, but I've had to live with this idea that it's possible that I like physically attacked her.
Katie Grace: Mm.
Elizabeth Hill: which was rough, right? So
Katie Grace: Mm.
Elizabeth Hill: then I like had this kind of psychotic break. I went to my parents' house. I was speaking in tongues, it seemed like. It was like I kind of launched at my brother. I remember that part. Like it was just nuts. And my and all of this I don't remember a lot of what happened, but I do know that I didn't go back to my apartment. My my boyfriend and his brother and like my dad or something moved all my stuff out. I ended up going to live at my grandma's house. Like things were people took care of certain things for me. And then I have what I called my gin and tonic summer at
Katie Grace: Mm-hmm.
Elizabeth Hill: my grandma's house where I stayed there. She had a pool drink gin and tonics. And I kind of like got it back together. It's my gin and tonic summer, but I was also working full time somehow. After having a total psychotic break, I like pick got the the easiest job I could imagine at the time. I was like, I can handle this. it was a for me, it was working at an answering service. And I was like, they'll just put up what I need to say on the screen and I'll just say what I need to say. And
Katie Grace: Mm-hmm.
Elizabeth Hill: like, that's it. Right. So I was like, I can do this job. and then I took classes. Right? Like that was my version of not doing anything all summer was was that
Katie Grace: I was gonna say that sounds like a really full summer. That feels like a typical like semester, not summer.
Elizabeth Hill: Right. Yeah. But in my brain, because I was not doing everything else, it seemed
Katie Grace: Yeah, yeah.
Elizabeth Hill: so like, wow, I'm just wild abandoned. I'm having a gin attack by this by the pool. And so that's that's what happened. I lost all of my friends from being a witness. They couldn't talk to me anymore. my boyfriend at the time, he Basically said to me, He's like, Here's what you do. My sister did this. He said, We can't talk to them. If we don't talk to them, they can't just fellowship us. So just disappear from them and don't talk to them. So that's what I did. And they called me all the time and I wouldn't answer. My poor grandma had to get all these phone calls from the elders begging me to come back and I wouldn't talk to them. I just was like, Nope, won't speak to them. And I just avoided every place I'd ever seen a witness. And I went to school. You know, I went to college. I I started building my life. And what helped me build my life was I did have my boyfriend at the time. I did have my grandma who was marvelous. My mother still talked to me. She loved me. She never stopped talking to me, even though I want to cry about that. Because a lot of people, their parents don't talk to them. Or family don't talk to them, right? But my mother never stopped. and then in college, pretty quickly, I found a theater community that helped me that became they're still my best friends now, right? Like wonderful people in the theater. I started reading books about meditation and yoga. And I started doing that and writing, reading books, right? Books also were part of me leaving, actually. I found books at Barnes, I think was it Borders, Barnes and Noble? I don't know what bookstore it was at that time. But I found certain books that were about faith and crisis of faith. And reading those, I was like, there's whole other ways to look at the world that I hadn't looked at, right?
Katie Grace: Yeah.
Elizabeth Hill: And really the way that my mother raised me and both my parents raised me is more kind of transcendentalist or hippie and like very earth. Like I was raised talking to trees and hugging trees and like
Katie Grace: Mm-hmm.
Elizabeth Hill: that's what they are, both of them. So that's what I am, right? Like I'm more that in who like Taoist basic, you know. Like that's
Katie Grace: Mm.
Elizabeth Hill: that's how I was kind of raised when we didn't have the religion
Katie Grace: Mm.
Elizabeth Hill: layered on top of it. So I was able to keep those parts of who I was and how I was raised. 'cause I didn't leave I didn't lose I think some people when they leave, they don't believe in God at all or anything. Like I always believed in God. It just changed how I what I believed God was. Right?
Katie Grace: Yeah. Mm-hmm. That's beautiful. I mean
Elizabeth Hill: Yeah.
Katie Grace: it's it's painful in order to get there. And yet there's so much beauty in it as well. It's like an entire process of rebirth. And birth is so messy and so painful, and yet there's all this like beauty and new life that comes from it. And
Elizabeth Hill: Mm-hmm.
Katie Grace: I have talked with quite a few people over the years. I'm curious if you feel this way. Who feel like as they have gone through their own personal deconstruction and reconstructing processes, that they just feel like it's this constant journey of coming back home to themselves. And often it's coming back home to a much younger version of themselves that like this is who they always were at their core, and yet it's what they were taught to repress, or it's what they were taught to stifle, or it wouldn't be okay or allow because of such and such reason. And now all of a sudden, those things. can come out and those like that inner child can come out and explore. And I'm just curious if that resonates with what you were saying there.
Elizabeth Hill: Yeah, that resonates a lot because there was there was a lot of inability to or restriction in speech like what you're allowed to say and vocalize, right? and so I've you couldn't question anything. If you question anything out loud, right? It was not not good. Like you'd literally get taken to the basement to talk to, right? Like that's what would happen. and this is why I do the work I do, honestly, because I'm so passionate about helping people feel more comfortable in sharing their story because it's part of my my growth process because I'm not always fully co comfortable about sharing my story, right? It took me a long time to be able to be kind of public about this type of thing because for a while it was just like, nope, keep it in a lockdown. We don't talk about it publicly.
Katie Grace: Mm-hmm.
Elizabeth Hill: Right. I just didn't. so and that can cause all these like. health problems and like sore throats and
Katie Grace: Mm.
Elizabeth Hill: like all these throat chakra things because you're repressing
Katie Grace: Yep. Yep.
Elizabeth Hill: like the real conversations and the real things. But yeah, what you say about the the you know going back to younger self and who you are, it it there's a lot of life where I felt like I I was living like, I don't know, like frozen or like my body was frozen. I couldn't even like listen to music I enjoyed because it would make me too emotional. So I wouldn't even let myself listen to music that I could tune into or let myself feel fully. Like it had to be like locked down.
Katie Grace: Mm.
Elizabeth Hill: Even years, years after it
Katie Grace: Yeah.
Elizabeth Hill: was you know, I left. And I think that's something I carried forward. And
Katie Grace: Mm.
Elizabeth Hill: so as I do more and more. Personal growth work, you know, and just grow like care less and less about what people
Katie Grace: Mm-hmm.
Elizabeth Hill: think, you know, and and time goes on, right? I I do feel more like myself, just like like more like who I was. I have I have this picture. Of me as a kid that was taken, it must have been after one of the meetings, but I'm in it. I have this little like burgundy velvet jump dress or something, and I have this feather and I'm holding it like this, right?
Katie Grace: So
Elizabeth Hill: And there's a light above my head, which you know, it's like I have angelic protection, it's like I have like something. like divine with me taking care of me. And my mom, even though that's not really a thing, the witnesses would be like, yeah, that's great. They wouldn't really approve.
Katie Grace: Mm-hmm.
Elizabeth Hill: She took that picture and she always loved that picture. And she would say
Katie Grace: Mm.
Elizabeth Hill: that she's like, well, you know, you we have this thing, right? So so she would say that to me. So I know like my my inner child has has that connection with spirit, right? Like,
Katie Grace: Mm.
Elizabeth Hill: and And yeah, it feels good to be able to kind of uncover that over time too.
Katie Grace: Yeah. Well that that very last phrase over time, I think really carries so much significance that I think is worth spending a moment on because another thing that I've heard so many times from people and what I'm experiencing in my own journey is that it's not like you leave and then you're healed. Like it's not at all like, okay, I just don't believe this anymore, and now I can go on with my life and I'm, you know, I have all this freedom. And maybe for some people that's their experience. I have not met somebody yet who has. And I think that like you said, so you left around 19 or 20 and you're now 47. And this is an ongoing active healing process. I'm curious like
Elizabeth Hill: Mm-hmm.
Katie Grace: what let me think about how I want to word it. How do you feel most connected to your sense of self or spirituality now compared to how you did, you know, even a decade ago or when you first left?
Elizabeth Hill: Well I feel like So I use meditation, and I feel like that's like sitting and meditating or writing has always been throughout my entire life how I kind of connect with myself and who I am, right? Like and what's important to me. so that's been a through line through my whole life. And Yeah. I'm trying to think how it has changed over time. I'd like to share one story that this makes me think of. That's okay.
Katie Grace: Mm-hmm.
Elizabeth Hill: when I married my ex-husband, who's the father of my kids, and he's a he's a solid great guy, right? Like we were married for 12 years, we did get divorced. But when I married him, I had really been taught that everyone who wasn't a witness was bad. I was taught that they were like no good.
Katie Grace: Mm.
Elizabeth Hill: And I met him and I was like, this guy's good.
Katie Grace: Mm-hmm.
Elizabeth Hill: He's a good one. He's like probably the only one that's not a like not a witness in good.
Katie Grace: Mm-hmm.
Elizabeth Hill: We didn't have a lot in common at all. Right?
Katie Grace: Mm-hmm.
Elizabeth Hill: Like, but I was like, he's a good one. I'm gonna I'm gonna marry this good one.
Katie Grace: Mm-hmm.
Elizabeth Hill: And like I needed to learn about myself to figure out what I needed because I didn't
Katie Grace: Mm.
Elizabeth Hill: know. And I get, you know, like
Katie Grace: Yeah.
Elizabeth Hill: I married pretty young and I, you know, not too young. I was 25. but that was a lasting impact that I didn't even realize until later, right? Like it I wasn't thinking consciously, I need to find one good guy and all these evil people. Like that wasn't I like I don't but it was
Katie Grace: Yeah.
Elizabeth Hill: something that so it's just like it can have a lot of impact, like and it can take a while to sort out.
Katie Grace: yeah.
Elizabeth Hill: And we don't even realize the things that are impacted by it.
Katie Grace: Yeah. And sometimes we won't for years and years because in order to do that, we have to have the awareness and the ability to even recognize, you know, certain patterns or emotions, you know, just doing that work within ourselves. Then we need language for it. And I
Elizabeth Hill: Mm-hmm.
Katie Grace: think even even those buckets right there can
Elizabeth Hill: Yeah.
Katie Grace: take years to sift through. And then when you finally Okay, I understand this about myself. Well, now you might be You might have grown into an entirely new version of yourself or you're just coming home to who you always were and who you were living before was a series of masks that weren't ever truly authentically you.
Elizabeth Hill: Another example of this is when I so I got got my bachelor's in theater and psychology, which I was really literally trying to just figure out my brain and everyone in my family and everything, like diagnose everybody. That's what I was doing for my bachelor's. And then my then I got my master's in social work and I focused in community organization. And that was because I literally continued to feel like I needed to save the world.
Katie Grace: Mm.
Elizabeth Hill: I still felt that way. Like I it's my job. Like, what on earth? This, like, this is my job. It's my job to save the world. But I'm instead of teaching them about God, I'm going to, you know, help them in their communities. Right. and you know, so that's that's the work I was doing for a long time. Not pausing to think, what am I actually good at? What do I actually really enjoy? Right. But I spent fifteen years in the nonprofits just like, where's the need? What c what should I do? Where's
Katie Grace: Mm-hmm.
Elizabeth Hill: the need? What should I do? And all that like it felt good to be part of something bigger than myself and like feel like 'cause as a witness also we weren't really involved in any kind of community outreach like that, like doing stuff like feeding people or like they witnesses don't do that sort of benefiting thing, right? Like for the communities. I had 15 years basically of me just responding and doing that sort of stuff. And then I kind of woke up and was like, what do I actually enjoy doing and what am I good at? And then I had this awareness, this it really was an awakening of wait, we're all here on earth and we're all given different things that we we are really good at. And if we all just do those things, the world has everything it needs.
Katie Grace: Yeah.
Elizabeth Hill: And we don't have to go figure out, like, we don't have to respond to the world in the way of just let what do you need? I'll do it. What do you need? I do it. Right.
Katie Grace: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Elizabeth Hill: which, you know, as a witness, you weren't, and I think a lot of religions are like this. It's like there was no nothing for me to do that was based on what who I was.
Katie Grace: Mm-hmm.
Elizabeth Hill: It was everyone had to do. Whatever the th the need was.
Katie Grace: Yeah.
Elizabeth Hill: Right.
Katie Grace: Mm-hmm.
Elizabeth Hill: So
Katie Grace: I love that. I that resonates very deeply. I think that it was probably in 2020 when I first heard about having like a savior complex. And as soon
Elizabeth Hill: Mm.
Katie Grace: as I heard about that and started looking into all that that can entail, the different ways that it can look, I was just like, this is me for sure. And this it's no wonder. Like I understand I could look at that part of myself with a lot of grace, a lot of compassion. I understand where it came from, but even when I had been deconstructing already, you know, I I was able to then look at my life and think, I'm still carrying the weight, like you said, of trying to save the world because that is all I know how to do. That was so deeply ingrained within us. So I love that you came to this realization of every person just having these unique gifts and abilities and stories and things that they're They're here, you know, to live it out. And if they can have support in living that out, then the world is a much more beautiful and healed place. And you can just support them in that. You don't have to actually do anything for them. I would love as we're starting to bring this in for a close, I would love to hear more about then. I'm assuming that is what led you into founding Greenheart Living Press and the types of stories and people that you work with now.
Elizabeth Hill: Yeah, so I what happened was I wrote my first book that was based on the things that, you know, basically helping me cope with anxiety, all the things I'd done to rewire my brain. And so that was called Green Your Heart, Green Your World. Ironically, the subtitle is about saving the world.
Katie Grace: Love it, love it.
Elizabeth Hill: Yep, pretty present there. Younger version,
Katie Grace: Younger younger version of you, yeah.
Elizabeth Hill: still saving the world. and it was about like helping people not burn out while they're in that process, right? So I wrote that book and published it. I was still working in the nonprofits, but after I published that, I st I was building a coaching practice, right? And then people started coming to me and they start, you know, I had one person who was like, I'm writing this memoir. about my mother and I would really like help along the way. I coached her on other things, And then I said, yeah, I could help you with your book, sure. And then I had somebody else come and be like, you self-published your book. I'd really like to do that too. could you help me? And I was like, yeah, absolutely. So then I turned I'm building the coaching practice, thinking I'm building this coat this coaching practice that's going to help people stop from burning out. while they're trying to save the world. Right. This is what I was that I was doing. And I look around and eight out of my ten clients had wanted to do books or write books. And I w I was like,
Katie Grace: Incredible. Yeah.
Elizabeth Hill: what? I was like, could I actually just do books for my life? What? And
Katie Grace: Mm-hmm.
Elizabeth Hill: like that that was like such like little girl Liz who played library in her bedroom. Like had books that you could check out right from my bedroom. That's what I did. Like to be able to make books and write stories and play on typewriters and computers every day. Like this is a dream job for me. And like have conversations with people, like what? And
Katie Grace: Mm.
Elizabeth Hill: you know, you know, me who always loved be doing theater and storytelling and all of that, that's what this is, right? It's it's I get to have that aspect of it too by being on podcasts and stages and like talking with people about their stories and having them craft them. Right. So
Katie Grace: it's like the center of that Venn diagram. It's the very core of
Elizabeth Hill: Yes.
Katie Grace: it all. Yeah.
Elizabeth Hill: It's so and once that clicked, I was like, what? And then it's just grown like this. And it's so it's it's I've I've published, I think it's 85 books now or 86 books. I've helped over 200 people now become published authors. And it just keeps, you know, I know that this is what I'm here to do on the earth. Like I can tell. And I'm so glad that I just followed the breadcrumbs to get to this spot because I'm hooked on transform the transformation that's possible from sharing your story, right? I I know from I did theater, I did art, I did, you know, so much writing, right? Like these things are that that expression of of our truth,
Katie Grace: Mm.
Elizabeth Hill: right? And sometimes our truth might, in theater, it might look like you're acting out somebody else's life, right? Sometimes it can look sometimes when you write it could be fiction, right? But that expression of what's true to you, it is so healing. Not just for you as a person, like it's healing for you, but it's also healing for the person that's hearing it, right? Books literally help me reconstruct my brain and know that other things are possible. And
Katie Grace: yep.
Elizabeth Hill: so, right? So it helps the person, it helps the person who's reading it, right? It's so, so amazing. so once I I started feeling that and seeing what's possible when people get their book into book form and are sharing their stories, I'm like, this is it, man. Like this I'm so hooked on that transformation that people get to experience. And it feels like such an honor to witness it and be part. it's so funny I use the word witness in a different way. But it's like I'm a different kind of witness, you know, like a different
Katie Grace: I didn't even catch that.
Elizabeth Hill: witness now. This is like, so I, you know. Going door to door as a pioneer, I was I was peddling paper. Like we were doing magazines, we were like putting so we'd have a different kind of book that we do now, but like
Katie Grace: Yeah. Still a witness, still working with literature.
Elizabeth Hill: Look, look at this. yeah, so it's it's I'm so grateful that I get to do what I do. And and I honor what I how I was raised because I don't know if I didn't wasn't raised the way I was raised and I don't know if I'd be who I am today. And I do really love who I am today. So
Katie Grace: Yeah.
Elizabeth Hill: I gotta be grateful for whatever happened and went down, you
Katie Grace: Yeah.
Elizabeth Hill: know.
Katie Grace: Yeah.
Elizabeth Hill: Then so yeah.
Katie Grace: Mm. I love that. And I love that you are here and doing what you're doing. You're excellent at what you do. And I'm just so thankful for the stories that you've helped to put out into the world and for sharing your own here today. Thank you so much. Thank
Elizabeth Hill: Aww, thank you.
Katie Grace: you. Of course. Where can people, if they want to hear more about, you know, your books, your work, if they want to connect with you personally, I can put all of these things in the show notes, but where would you just like quickly direct them to?
Elizabeth Hill: Yes, the easiest way to find me is greenheartliving dot com.
Katie Grace: Perfect. GreenheartLiving.com. That'll be in the show notes. And my goodness, it has just been such a joy to talk with you today, just on a more like personal level and actually hear so much of your story. There is a ton of overlap in ours. I knew that, but hearing certain things like even the fact that you were married for twelve years and I was married for twelve years, that's just wild. Yeah.
Elizabeth Hill: Isn't that wild? Yeah.
Katie Grace: But my gosh, it's been so wonderful to work with you too. And I'm just really excited to finish publishing with you. I think by the time this episode comes out, it'll be about a month my book will be released December 1st. So really, really soon. So
Elizabeth Hill: so exciting. Yeah. I can't wait.
Katie Grace: excited. thank you so much for being here today. And then for the listeners, if you loved this episode, if you love like the heart of the Reconstructing podcast, which is really just to Help people explore and ask the tough questions about what is coming up when the lives that we once built for ourselves no longer fit. What do we do now? What do we keep? What do we let go of? What do we build next? Then, you know, you can continue listening to the Reconstructing Podcast. And if you find yourself wishing that you could have more conversations like this yourself, then I would love to invite you to come and sit at the table, which is going to be a virtual space that I'm gonna be opening up for community. So by the time this airs, I think it should be open. Everything will be in the show notes in how you can get connected to that. And it's basically going to be just a virtual community that allows people who are curious, questioning their belief systems, healing from fear-based, high control religions or environments, and figuring out what's next to come together and have discussions like this. each month we're gonna have a book club. And then we'll be able to have a monthly conversation just with some questions and thoughts around it all. When we're lucky, we'll be able to actually sit down with the author or at least a guest speaker who can have some expertise on that topic to share with us. So I'm really excited. I would love for you to pull up a chair at this table so you can find all of that information in the show notes or just visit the katygrace.com to find more. Thank you so much for being here today.
Katie Grace: Yeah.
Elizabeth Hill: any moment Armageddon's gonna happen. My father's gonna die. I don't know if I'm gonna live or not. I'm trying to be good. police are gonna come and arrest us because we were witnesses. I would be like, okay, we have the woods. Where can I hide in the woods? I should really like build a bunker for myself. Like, we really should have a bunker out there
Katie Grace: Yeah. Alright, welcome everybody to the very first episode of the Reconstructing Podcast. I can't believe I just said those words out loud. It is the first episode, and I'm so thrilled to have you all here. And it just feels surreal to be like sitting here for this first episode with my publisher. And so I get to introduce you all to Elizabeth B. Hill. She is the CEO and founder of Greenheart Living Press. And she is publishing my book, which will be out in December, Spirit of Fear. And Elizabeth has her own close ties to religious trauma, coming out of high control environments and healing and navigating all of that. And she herself has a lot of mindfulness training, trauma-informed skills that have informed her coaching practices, which have been quite invaluable to me in my writing process. So Liz, welcome to the show. I'm so happy that you're here.
Elizabeth Hill: I'm so happy to be here too. When you came to me with your story and you talked with me, I went, I can't believe how many similarities there are. It was really quite intense to be reading your writing and all of that. And I'm like, my goodness, she's really is she in my head? Is she writing my book? So it's an honor to be here and to talk about my story with you.
Katie Grace: That's amazing. Yeah, I I wanted to share a little bit of the backstory of how we even got connected. Is that okay? Yeah.
Elizabeth Hill: Hmm. Yes, please.
Katie Grace: Amazing. So the the long wild story condensed into a version, I think, for us would be that I in April of 2026, so this year, I was invited by a friend who was like co-hosting a one-day retreat about like empowering women. So, and I told her at the time, I don't think I can go. The the ticket cost was like above, you know, what I could afford at the time. And so she just told me she was like, but I can't get you out of my head. I really feel like you should be there and I will comp your ticket. I was like, well, okay. So I go and I had a wonderful time. You know, it was a really great day. But the number one connection that I made that day was with an author who was there. She had like a little table set up. And she was selling her books. So we got to talking. I was like, I'm a an author as well. I'm writing a book. And we're talking. There's a lot of overlap to our stories. then she was like, we should grab coffee sometime. So from that connection, fast forward a week later, I'm grabbing coffee with this author, and she and I are talking about each of our books. And she just says, I just keep thinking of this publisher. She was like, I didn't end up working with her, but I think I would want to for my next book. But I just think you would be a great fit for her. And so she tells me all about Greenheart Living Press. And she had your phone number and she was like, let me connect you. So then a week after that, I've got a phone call with you. And all of a sudden we're talking. And like you said, there's so much overlap to our stories that and not only our personal stories, but Greenheart Living specializes, right, in like personal development stories, memoirs specifically. So it was just perfect.
Elizabeth Hill: Mm-hmm. Yes. It feels like so many synchronicities happened to bring us together. That's what it feels like to be.
Katie Grace: Exactly. I was like, well, the universe could not be, you know, opening doors more wide open. So I'm so happy that we've connected
Elizabeth Hill: Right.
Katie Grace: and in the process so far with your coaching and helping me through, you know, finishing the manuscript and publishing now, we've mainly focused our time on my book, but I'm really excited to dive into more of your story because I really only know like little bits and pieces.
Elizabeth Hill: Sometimes I feel like I only know little bits and pieces. Isn't that funny
Katie Grace: Ha ha ha.
Elizabeth Hill: how life is? It's like, what do I remember? Okay.
Katie Grace: Well, especially when you live a life that feels like you've lived multiple lives in one. It's like, okay, which which version of myself am I pulling from here?
Elizabeth Hill: It's so true. It's funny that because that's the way that I identify myself really is like I've gone through so many different versions of being me and who I am in the world. And it's funny because I live in the same town I grew up in, right? I actually live right here. There's a lot of things that are very similar in my life, but just who I am and my internal like architecture basically and the way that my brain thinks. And who I am in the world has shifted so much throughout my life that it it feel I look back at who I was as a kid and in my teens and I go, Who who was that person? It's wild.
Katie Grace: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I resonate with that so deeply. I'm not in the exact same town, but Colorado has mainly been my home and just
Elizabeth Hill: Mm-hmm.
Katie Grace: sort of bounced all around it. But yeah, it's weird. It's like if we didn't have photos or, you know, even video
Elizabeth Hill: Mm.
Katie Grace: of some of those like times of our lives, it's or journal entries, you know, it it would be kind of hard to like fully remember what what those versions of us were like. why don't we kind of segue into, you know, starting with Wherever you want to start in your story, you could start all the way from the beginning, you know, in childhood or wherever you'd like. But if you could just tell us a little bit about your like personal history with high control religion, maybe we start there and then how
Elizabeth Hill: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Katie Grace: that impacted you going forward into adulthood.
Elizabeth Hill: Yes. So I was raised a Jehovah's Witness and I became a witness. I believe I was eight years old when my mother got baptized and we started not being able to celebrate holidays or things like that. And we started going that was the year where we went and met with my teacher before the school year to explain what you know that we did wouldn't
Katie Grace: Mm.
Elizabeth Hill: be participating in holidays and you know, basically witnessing to the teacher also, like to explain what was.
Katie Grace: Two and one.
Elizabeth Hill: What was two in one, right? Like here's a brochure, right? So we had a lot of publications. and it was also the time when I started going door to door, talking about you know, handing out Watchtowers and Awakes and all of that. but I do remember time before when we were celebrating holidays and when we weren't in that religion. I left when I was, I believe I was 20, like 19 or 20, like right on the line there. And I believed it. Like the entire time that we were in it, I believed it a hundred percent. There wasn't
Katie Grace: Mm.
Elizabeth Hill: a time like I didn't grow up thinking questioning it or being like, this doesn't make sense. Like I was like hook, line and sinker. Like whatever the expression
Katie Grace: Yeah.
Elizabeth Hill: is, I was in it. and when I became So it was in high school, I started doing what they call auxiliary pioneering, which is spending a certain amount of time going door to door. and then my senior year in high school, I actually only went to school half time. And the other time I spent going door to door. And then after I would did I spent, I think it was a year and a half where I was a full-time pioneer. I also had a part-time job. at an eye doctor's. but I went door to door a lot. and my childhood was basically there was no time for anything other than going to school. Go on Saturdays we went door to door. I had like an afternoon free on Saturday. Sunday we went to the meeting. And it was, you know, two hours. And then Sunday afternoon we probably did some family type things or all of that. but every night after school we were preparing for meetings. I had meetings Tuesday night and Thursday night that would go very late. So I would always be tired. You know, I never got enough
Katie Grace: Wow.
Elizabeth Hill: sleep my whole childhood, because we were always always busy with something.
Katie Grace: Mm.
Elizabeth Hill: and we also had a family study where we were reading the Bible and whatever publication that you know the witnesses recommended. and so it was weird when I left because which is a whole, you know, a whole I'll get into it, but like the biggest thing when I left after I recovered from my mental breakdown, because I had a total mental breakdown, like real.
Katie Grace: Yeah.
Elizabeth Hill: and as a social worker, I'm calling it a mental breakdown too.
Katie Grace: Yeah.
Elizabeth Hill: that The biggest thing for me I realized I was like, what do I do with all this time?
Katie Grace: Hmm.
Elizabeth Hill: And I was working full time and going to college.
Katie Grace: Mm-hmm. And yet this was like a
Elizabeth Hill: Both.
Katie Grace: wide open schedule for you.
Elizabeth Hill: Yeah. I was like, what is this? Like it was really bizarre. and so that's, you know, when I heard, you know, that it's this high control, right? It's like very when I heard that expression of what it was, I was, that is what it was. so it's affected my life in a lot of ways in that I basically had to reconfigure my mental thoughts. Right. So I had a lot of negative thoughts, a lot of like self-hatred, thinking I was like just sinful and terrible. And when I look at what I was as a kid, I was like, what did I ever do that was sinful or terrible? I was just a person. Like I wasn't even like anything. Like I was pretty good kid. But I grew up thinking I was this terrible, terrible person. And so I had to reconstruct my brain. in a lot of ways, so that I didn't have this just flood of thoughts. And over time, I mean, so I left when I was nineteen or twenty. I am forty-seven now. It's been a long time
Katie Grace: Mm-hmm.
Elizabeth Hill: since then. but it is it's been a it has been a process of rebuilding my my spiritual self, my bel belief in God and the divine. my mental health, like my my how I view myself and all of that. and my father was not a witness and is not a witness and my mother was, which was interesting. But my father, you know, for a while is like, why did this guy let us do this? Right? Like how did he let this happen? and I've come to recognize that my father liked us being out of the house. He
Katie Grace: Mm.
Elizabeth Hill: had a hard time with with us loud children. You know. It's it's just me and my brother.
Katie Grace: How many how many siblings do you have? It's just me and my brother. Okay.
Elizabeth Hill: but we, you know, we were loud. My dad, you know, for I won't go into his whole thing, but like he was probably like, This is great. Like, please go do anything with them that's not in our house.
Katie Grace: Mm-hmm.
Elizabeth Hill: You know? and he so he was His father was a Methodist minister. And so he was very anti-religion as a result of his father being a minister. His reaction to that was
Katie Grace: Interesting.
Elizabeth Hill: like, nope. So, right?
Katie Grace: Okay.
Elizabeth Hill: and so he he he always will say that the river is his religion. So he would go down to the river and like sit there, like paddle in the river and like nature. So yeah.
Katie Grace: Wow. my goodness. I thank you for sharing that like beginning of all of this. I have a a million questions I'm writing down over here on this side. I'm just every single point
Elizabeth Hill: Yeah.
Katie Grace: I'm like, I want to new no more.
Elizabeth Hill: Right.
Katie Grace: Okay, so you remember your life before eight years old to some degree, and you remember holidays, you remember birthdays, that kinda like what life was like before. do you remember any sort of like jarring juxtaposition with like the switch at eight years old? Or do you feel like it just kind of flowed seamlessly into like, this is just our new routine now?
Elizabeth Hill: It's so weird. It it wasn't jarring at all. Which is also weird and I feel like it should be, but it wasn't. I remember in third grade I would pretend that I was a witch and that I could turn people into frogs if they were bad. And I had like all these things about spells and I would like do all this stuff. And then all of a sudden it was not good for me to pretend I was a witch anymore, because that was like demonic. And so
Katie Grace: Mm-hmm.
Elizabeth Hill: I I was not allowed to pretend I was a witch anymore.
Katie Grace: Mm-hmm.
Elizabeth Hill: but somehow I got over that. I think I think it was such a welcoming community and everybody was like I had made good friends there. Like everyone was so nice to us. Like I think
Katie Grace: Mm-hmm.
Elizabeth Hill: I think that was appealing. I
Katie Grace: Mm.
Elizabeth Hill: it's it's weird for me to think back on that time because I don't It's also funny because there's another aside book. My mother's had a friend who at the same time became a Scientologist, which is like so weird. Cause
Katie Grace: Yeah.
Elizabeth Hill: there are a lot of similarities between like not in the teachings, but in that the way that they're some of the ways that they're structured and how that there's not a lot of time and they keep people so busy. and this idea that we have to save the world from themselves, right? There was a lot of pressure
Katie Grace: Mm-hmm.
Elizabeth Hill: to if we don't tell people, you know, about Armageddon coming, we can't say we have to save them. It's our job. Meanwhile, I'm living in a house with my father who you know, I'm being told is evil. Not they wouldn't say evil. They would say he's he's working for Satan.
Katie Grace: Mm.
Elizabeth Hill: And anyone I go to school with is also, if they are being nice to me, they are working for Satan. And that's the only reason they're being nice to me. Like what? What a trip is that? What?
Katie Grace: Hmm, yeah. It's that's a total, total mind trip. Like to try to process that as a child when already as a child everything is so black and white, everything is very dualistic. And then I think to me that makes sense that maybe this wouldn't have been so jarring for you because I think as a kid, at least around that age, it does flow right into this really nice, seamless structure, like, okay, I have right and wrong now, I've got black and white thinking, like it there are these boxes and you knew where you fit, but it would also be so wild to be like living in a home where because cause for me I can resonate with like I had so much fear of anybody outside my home, my church home. I mean, those were like the two places where I reside, you know, resided most of my time. And anybody else was like the other. And they were to be feared, or if I had a friendship with them, it was for the sole purpose of converting. And for you, I'm curious, like with your dad, you know, being so different from your mom, she she was not a Jehovah's Witness when they got married. So do you remember your dad ever like vocalizing that he didn't agree with this or felt weird about it, or you just knew that he just was different?
Elizabeth Hill: I literally don't remember him ever protesting that we were doing this. Like I don't
Katie Grace: Okay. Yeah.
Elizabeth Hill: remember it. That doesn't mean they didn't have those conversations. Like I d Right. I
Katie Grace: Mm behind closed doors. Right. Yeah.
Elizabeth Hill: just I don't ever remember even him being like like teasing us for it or anything. I
Katie Grace: Mm. Yeah.
Elizabeth Hill: he was not home a lot. And so he doesn't like he He was he was living there, like he lived with us. He worked, he provided for us. but he makes a joke. He goes, these people that that have these these kids, it looks so hard. I I'm glad I never did it. Like
Katie Grace: Mm-hmm.
Elizabeth Hill: he makes a joke that he didn't have children because he wasn't there. So so I don't know.
Katie Grace: Mm.
Elizabeth Hill: it's What's w what I re what I feel like, and it's, you know, I've tried to figure this whole thing out. Like what happened? Like in reflection, it seem it felt like I had three parents. It feels like I had my father and I had a mother. And then I had this religion. And the religion was basically like men in suits, because it's men in suits that are making the decision. The women aren't allowed to make any decisions, right? It was a very patriarchal. when you're Jehovah's Witness, at least at the time I was a witness, if a woman prayed in front of a man, they had to wear a head covering, right? And they had, you know, they had to wear skirts. They couldn't wear pants. Now I have heard that they can wear s pants now. Very exciting.
Katie Grace: Ha ha ha.
Elizabeth Hill: Very exciting news. I've heard that it was like a couple of years ago, they're like I was allowed to wear pants when I wasn't at a meeting or going door to door, but I had to wear a skirt in those instances. But I've heard the recent thing was that men were allowed to grow a beard and women were allowed to wear pants. And this was like a couple of years ago. So it's like nice. Yeah.
Katie Grace: heard that as well. And I heard it was also like very like dependent geographically where you are. That's the
Elizabeth Hill: yeah.
Katie Grace: person I heard that from at least was saying that. But yeah. Yeah.
Elizabeth Hill: Right, right, probably. Right. I remember someone wearing a pantsuit that was coming that wasn't baptized, but she was a woman cut like attending because she was studying and she wore a pantsuit to a meeting and everyone was like, We have to talk to her. We have to have a convers it was like a very beautiful pantsuit. And I remember
Katie Grace: Mm-hmm.
Elizabeth Hill: wearing culottes. I remember wearing coolot like what? And also not being allowed to wear culottes after a little bit of time.
Katie Grace: okay, so the high control environment, it was high control over what you wore and how you spent every moment of your waking time, even how long your waking time lasted, much more than what a lot of kids experience. And, you know, what you could be around, what you could be playing, no more pretending witch games or anything.
Elizabeth Hill: Sad.
Katie Grace: how do you feel like fear was impacting you throughout like childhood and adolescence? Do you feel like you remember feeling afraid of any of these things in particular, you know, outside of those confines? Or do you feel like that was something you became more aware of later in life?
Elizabeth Hill: was I remember being afraid basically all of the time.
Katie Grace: Okay.
Elizabeth Hill: So I remember my my childhood feels like just I was afraid the entire time. And I like everything. I liked going to school because the weekend I'd have to go door to door and that was terrifying. It's like actually it was terrifying for me to go door to door. you know, people don't like it when they come to your house. They will s I had so many people swear at me even when I was a little child. Like, and I I do not blame them for whatever they did. at the door because I don't like people coming to my house either. But, you
Katie Grace: Mm-hmm.
Elizabeth Hill: know, it was like I saw naked people come to the door because they thought it was funny, right? Like, you know, and
Katie Grace: Yeah. Wow.
Elizabeth Hill: you know, so I don't remember this, but this I have been told happened to me. This is something that somebody came to the door with a gun when I went to a door with a woman who was a witness that she was a black woman, So I don't know if the person was reacting with a gun because it was a black person at their door or if it was because we were witnesses or what was it? And I don't remember that happening. But my my brother and my mom told me that happened to me.
Katie Grace: Yeah.
Elizabeth Hill: right. So you know, I I went to where I live is in Avon, Connecticut. It's a very peaceful rural place, right? Where I grew up was at the time was five acres of gorgeous, beautiful, pristine forest with a stream and a river. Right. I used to play in the basement. And I would play at one point I would actually play out concentration camp. Like I would play in the basement because and my mom said I knew you were doing that, but I thought you needed to process it. And so you were downstairs like pretending you were hiding from the Nazis because witnesses were one of the, you know, religions that were persecuted then, right? So, but it's like I had this beautiful, peaceful place I grew up in, really.
Katie Grace: Yeah.
Elizabeth Hill: And very low crime, you know, anything like that. But I grew up in terror that at
Katie Grace: Yeah.
Elizabeth Hill: any moment Armageddon's gonna happen. My father's gonna die. I don't know if I'm gonna live or not. I'm trying to be good.
Katie Grace: Mm-hmm.
Elizabeth Hill: the police are gonna come and like arrest us because we were witnesses. we could be thrown in a concentration camp. I would think over and over, I would be like, okay, we have the woods. Where can I hide in the woods? I should really like build a bunker for myself. Like, we really should have a bunker out there
Katie Grace: Yeah.
Elizabeth Hill: and like play it out in my head.
Katie Grace: Yeah. my god. Yeah.
Elizabeth Hill: You know? Yeah, it's like horrible. Like I
Katie Grace: I know, it is so horrible. It's so horrible and when you say these things out loud and you're the one who lived it, it's like it at least for me, I feel like I already knew that was horrible, but saying it out loud just really, really puts it out there into like how bizarre and abnormal and wild that was. I mean, because like you know, with reading through my story, like my you know, I grew up for part of my life, my family were like doomsday preppers and we had, you know, our basement stocked with canned goods
Elizabeth Hill: Mm-hmm.
Katie Grace: and giant blue barrels of water. We were ready for the end of the world. And it's it's really, really a surreal experience as a kid to think constantly about how your life here could just end. End at any moment and not even just because of death. I feel like death is a hard concept for a child to grasp in itself, but that's a very normal concept that we have to deal with as humans. But then when you're thinking about my life could end because it's taken from me, or because I'm being targeted, I'm being persecuted, or Jesus is coming back, or you know, or or Satan has come, the Antichrist has come, Armageddon, the whole thing.
Elizabeth Hill: Mm-hmm.
Katie Grace: It's really, really weird to be living that sort of reality all the time.
Elizabeth Hill: And I think it's, you know, and this is something I I thought about a lot in reading your story too, is this idea of what motivates people to do this to their children. It's not like they're trying to like harm us. It's that they really, I mean, from my par my father or my mother's perspective, she really wanted us to have this very nice life. She was really a hippie, like a flower child. Like she wanted us to live on paradise on earth, man.
Katie Grace: Yeah.
Elizabeth Hill: She wanted everything to be nice and peaceful and good. And she wanted to protect us from, you know, she knew a lot of people that had bad things happen to them, or, you know, and she just wanted us to have some kind of sense of goodness and to make right decisions and all of that. And I don't think people, like as an adult, you're able to kind of decide what you. what parts you believe or not. You have a concept of the world of why you're doing something, right? When you're a child, it's it's a very different
Katie Grace: You don't have that.
Elizabeth Hill: way. It is like you said, black and white thinking. That's how kids think. It's like, right or wrong. Very clear. And where do I fit into the world? Okay. It's like, I have a sense of belonging here. That's great. Right? And if I do this, this will happen and then everything will be okay. Right. Like these are the instructions.
Katie Grace: Yeah, yeah.
Elizabeth Hill: And Yeah. So cause I
Katie Grace: Yeah.
Elizabeth Hill: have like I think about I had this moment when I was driving my daughter to this was when she was younger. Both my kids are adults now, but when my daughter was younger, she I was dropping her off at a friend's house. And we got we were driving down the road and I'm like, why is this house so why is this familiar? This road is so familiar. And I started feeling like ill, like i
Katie Grace: Mm.
Elizabeth Hill: ill as we're driving, and I went, my goodness. I'm on the road that was the first place I talked at a door. And
Katie Grace: Wow.
Elizabeth Hill: I was like, my goodness. And it went fine. And the person was nice to me. It was like, you cute little kid or whatever. You know, it was fine. But I was so terrified and always feeling like if I didn't speak, like every once in a while I had to speak at a door, or else God's coming down for me, or whatever the thing is. And
Katie Grace: Yeah.
Elizabeth Hill: I, you know, I go, how like I would never do that to a child. But never say, hey, hey, hey, kids, you gotta go up to this door and experience this like terror. But it's also I didn't feel like I had to, right? Like
Katie Grace: Mm.
Elizabeth Hill: I try to have compassion for my mother, you know, try to have compassion for parents that feel like they have to do that to save their kid.
Katie Grace: Right.
Elizabeth Hill: And I'm so glad I don't feel that way. Like,
Katie Grace: Yes.
Elizabeth Hill: thank goodness my br I was able to have a brain shift to not feel like. Feel like that was necessary, you know?
Katie Grace: Yeah. Well, because that that fear, like we've been talking about that fear is such a powerful motivator and it's such a powerful like really to me, I think it's like the foundation of these high control religions, high control environments, because you will do, especially as a child and a young adolescent, you will do whatever it is that you're told in order to try to save yourself and the ones that you care the most about in the world, you know, from
Elizabeth Hill: Mm-hmm.
Katie Grace: such horrible, horrible fates. And then even as an adult, like you said, your parents, my parents, you know, parents who really genuinely feel afraid that this is the life, the afterlife that I need to save my child from, then yeah, if I still believed the way that I did, the way that I was brought up, then I would, you know, probably be passing those things along to my son, which thankfully I'm not. But I am so curious to hear if so from age eight till about nineteen or twenty. Right. This is the very structured religion and environments that you are brought up in. And then you talked about how you ended up leaving around that time, but first there was a really giant mental breakdown. So I'm curious if you
Elizabeth Hill: Mm-hmm.
Katie Grace: whatever you want to share, whatever you feel comfortable expanding on, how did you get there?
Elizabeth Hill: Yeah, so it's it's wild. So it really was in a course of a month that I went from being a full-time pioneer to all of a sudden being like, This is not true. And my brain just like at the time I thought I was insane and I thought I was bipolar, which does run in my family. My grandfather was bipolar and I thought I was bipolar. And so I thought that it was me being mentally ill that was causing this. But in reflection looking back, I realized my whole brain and everything I believed was completely like pulled out from like out from under me that it was it was like a some kind of thing that was impacted by me losing my entire identity. And so what started happening was well One part of the story is I started dating someone who I love very much. And he was he actually told me later that he was going to leave the religion. He had made a decision. And his brother was going to leave the religion too. And they decided they were going to start try to date someone that they could take out, that they could save from the religion and get them out. I
Katie Grace: Mm-hmm.
Elizabeth Hill: did not know this. He was very good at tricking me into not knowing this either. I never would have guessed that when I started dating him. Even though there was deceit involved, I am eternally grateful to this guy.
Katie Grace: Mm.
Elizabeth Hill: Like I think about it at least once a week. I'm like, thank God for him. Thank
Katie Grace: Mm.
Elizabeth Hill: God for him. Because I I can't imagine how I would have left. Now it wasn't him convincing me to leave. It didn't, it wasn't that. It was. I started having these like little conversations with people and things started just awarenesses. I went and it started feeling like I was getting signs to leave, like spiritual signs to get out.
Katie Grace: Mm.
Elizabeth Hill: I went to a door once where the person at the door said to me something about like, people that have HIV and AIDS, it's God's punishing them by giving them this. And I had that conversation, I was like, I don't believe that. Like, I don't think God would do that. And
Katie Grace: Mm.
Elizabeth Hill: then as I was, you know, driving away from there, I'm like, I kind of feel like our religion would teach that. And I was like, I don't agree with that at all.
Katie Grace: And you're sitting with that discomfort, which is
Elizabeth Hill: Right.
Katie Grace: a lot, yeah.
Elizabeth Hill: Right. So it was things like that. And there was a lot of these little, little things, right, that added up to all of a sudden me just then I saw somehow hypocrisy in the religion, you know, I saw certain things that I didn't think were fair, that were starting to like build up and add up. And what what it looked like on the you know, what actually ended up happening was I did kind of get into a manic thing where I wasn't I wasn't sleeping. I somehow thought I could work full time, go door to door full time, be in college because I had gone started going to college, go to college full time, and then work another job. Like it was literally not possible. And I had set it up so I was up all week, except for like two days, two hours or something.
Katie Grace: Mm.
Elizabeth Hill: And then the weekend I could sleep. So when you do that, and you're also taking psych medications, I totally started blacking out. I was blacking
Katie Grace: Mm-hmm.
Elizabeth Hill: out and things happened that I don't remember, right? Like
Katie Grace: Mm.
Elizabeth Hill: my roommate said I I tried to jump out a window and she tried
Katie Grace: Wow.
Elizabeth Hill: to keep me from jumping out a window and then I attacked her and harmed her. I don't actually know if that story is true.
Katie Grace: Mm.
Elizabeth Hill: Because she was someone that liked to make up stories and she was a witness and she also kind of needed me to leave the apartment. So
Katie Grace: Mm.
Elizabeth Hill: it's possible that that's not true, but I've had to live with this idea that it's possible that I like physically attacked her.
Katie Grace: Mm.
Elizabeth Hill: which was rough, right? So
Katie Grace: Mm.
Elizabeth Hill: then I like had this kind of psychotic break. I went to my parents' house. I was speaking in tongues, it seemed like. It was like I kind of launched at my brother. I remember that part. Like it was just nuts. And my and all of this I don't remember a lot of what happened, but I do know that I didn't go back to my apartment. My my boyfriend and his brother and like my dad or something moved all my stuff out. I ended up going to live at my grandma's house. Like things were people took care of certain things for me. And then I have what I called my gin and tonic summer at
Katie Grace: Mm-hmm.
Elizabeth Hill: my grandma's house where I stayed there. She had a pool drink gin and tonics. And I kind of like got it back together. It's my gin and tonic summer, but I was also working full time somehow. After having a total psychotic break, I like pick got the the easiest job I could imagine at the time. I was like, I can handle this. it was a for me, it was working at an answering service. And I was like, they'll just put up what I need to say on the screen and I'll just say what I need to say. And
Katie Grace: Mm-hmm.
Elizabeth Hill: like, that's it. Right. So I was like, I can do this job. and then I took classes. Right? Like that was my version of not doing anything all summer was was that
Katie Grace: I was gonna say that sounds like a really full summer. That feels like a typical like semester, not summer.
Elizabeth Hill: Right. Yeah. But in my brain, because I was not doing everything else, it seemed
Katie Grace: Yeah, yeah.
Elizabeth Hill: so like, wow, I'm just wild abandoned. I'm having a gin attack by this by the pool. And so that's that's what happened. I lost all of my friends from being a witness. They couldn't talk to me anymore. my boyfriend at the time, he Basically said to me, He's like, Here's what you do. My sister did this. He said, We can't talk to them. If we don't talk to them, they can't just fellowship us. So just disappear from them and don't talk to them. So that's what I did. And they called me all the time and I wouldn't answer. My poor grandma had to get all these phone calls from the elders begging me to come back and I wouldn't talk to them. I just was like, Nope, won't speak to them. And I just avoided every place I'd ever seen a witness. And I went to school. You know, I went to college. I I started building my life. And what helped me build my life was I did have my boyfriend at the time. I did have my grandma who was marvelous. My mother still talked to me. She loved me. She never stopped talking to me, even though I want to cry about that. Because a lot of people, their parents don't talk to them. Or family don't talk to them, right? But my mother never stopped. and then in college, pretty quickly, I found a theater community that helped me that became they're still my best friends now, right? Like wonderful people in the theater. I started reading books about meditation and yoga. And I started doing that and writing, reading books, right? Books also were part of me leaving, actually. I found books at Barnes, I think was it Borders, Barnes and Noble? I don't know what bookstore it was at that time. But I found certain books that were about faith and crisis of faith. And reading those, I was like, there's whole other ways to look at the world that I hadn't looked at, right?
Katie Grace: Yeah.
Elizabeth Hill: And really the way that my mother raised me and both my parents raised me is more kind of transcendentalist or hippie and like very earth. Like I was raised talking to trees and hugging trees and like
Katie Grace: Mm-hmm.
Elizabeth Hill: that's what they are, both of them. So that's what I am, right? Like I'm more that in who like Taoist basic, you know. Like that's
Katie Grace: Mm.
Elizabeth Hill: that's how I was kind of raised when we didn't have the religion
Katie Grace: Mm.
Elizabeth Hill: layered on top of it. So I was able to keep those parts of who I was and how I was raised. 'cause I didn't leave I didn't lose I think some people when they leave, they don't believe in God at all or anything. Like I always believed in God. It just changed how I what I believed God was. Right?
Katie Grace: Yeah. Mm-hmm. That's beautiful. I mean
Elizabeth Hill: Yeah.
Katie Grace: it's it's painful in order to get there. And yet there's so much beauty in it as well. It's like an entire process of rebirth. And birth is so messy and so painful, and yet there's all this like beauty and new life that comes from it. And
Elizabeth Hill: Mm-hmm.
Katie Grace: I have talked with quite a few people over the years. I'm curious if you feel this way. Who feel like as they have gone through their own personal deconstruction and reconstructing processes, that they just feel like it's this constant journey of coming back home to themselves. And often it's coming back home to a much younger version of themselves that like this is who they always were at their core, and yet it's what they were taught to repress, or it's what they were taught to stifle, or it wouldn't be okay or allow because of such and such reason. And now all of a sudden, those things. can come out and those like that inner child can come out and explore. And I'm just curious if that resonates with what you were saying there.
Elizabeth Hill: Yeah, that resonates a lot because there was there was a lot of inability to or restriction in speech like what you're allowed to say and vocalize, right? and so I've you couldn't question anything. If you question anything out loud, right? It was not not good. Like you'd literally get taken to the basement to talk to, right? Like that's what would happen. and this is why I do the work I do, honestly, because I'm so passionate about helping people feel more comfortable in sharing their story because it's part of my my growth process because I'm not always fully co comfortable about sharing my story, right? It took me a long time to be able to be kind of public about this type of thing because for a while it was just like, nope, keep it in a lockdown. We don't talk about it publicly.
Katie Grace: Mm-hmm.
Elizabeth Hill: Right. I just didn't. so and that can cause all these like. health problems and like sore throats and
Katie Grace: Mm.
Elizabeth Hill: like all these throat chakra things because you're repressing
Katie Grace: Yep. Yep.
Elizabeth Hill: like the real conversations and the real things. But yeah, what you say about the the you know going back to younger self and who you are, it it there's a lot of life where I felt like I I was living like, I don't know, like frozen or like my body was frozen. I couldn't even like listen to music I enjoyed because it would make me too emotional. So I wouldn't even let myself listen to music that I could tune into or let myself feel fully. Like it had to be like locked down.
Katie Grace: Mm.
Elizabeth Hill: Even years, years after it
Katie Grace: Yeah.
Elizabeth Hill: was you know, I left. And I think that's something I carried forward. And
Katie Grace: Mm.
Elizabeth Hill: so as I do more and more. Personal growth work, you know, and just grow like care less and less about what people
Katie Grace: Mm-hmm.
Elizabeth Hill: think, you know, and and time goes on, right? I I do feel more like myself, just like like more like who I was. I have I have this picture. Of me as a kid that was taken, it must have been after one of the meetings, but I'm in it. I have this little like burgundy velvet jump dress or something, and I have this feather and I'm holding it like this, right?
Katie Grace: So
Elizabeth Hill: And there's a light above my head, which you know, it's like I have angelic protection, it's like I have like something. like divine with me taking care of me. And my mom, even though that's not really a thing, the witnesses would be like, yeah, that's great. They wouldn't really approve.
Katie Grace: Mm-hmm.
Elizabeth Hill: She took that picture and she always loved that picture. And she would say
Katie Grace: Mm.
Elizabeth Hill: that she's like, well, you know, you we have this thing, right? So so she would say that to me. So I know like my my inner child has has that connection with spirit, right? Like,
Katie Grace: Mm.
Elizabeth Hill: and And yeah, it feels good to be able to kind of uncover that over time too.
Katie Grace: Yeah. Well that that very last phrase over time, I think really carries so much significance that I think is worth spending a moment on because another thing that I've heard so many times from people and what I'm experiencing in my own journey is that it's not like you leave and then you're healed. Like it's not at all like, okay, I just don't believe this anymore, and now I can go on with my life and I'm, you know, I have all this freedom. And maybe for some people that's their experience. I have not met somebody yet who has. And I think that like you said, so you left around 19 or 20 and you're now 47. And this is an ongoing active healing process. I'm curious like
Elizabeth Hill: Mm-hmm.
Katie Grace: what let me think about how I want to word it. How do you feel most connected to your sense of self or spirituality now compared to how you did, you know, even a decade ago or when you first left?
Elizabeth Hill: Well I feel like So I use meditation, and I feel like that's like sitting and meditating or writing has always been throughout my entire life how I kind of connect with myself and who I am, right? Like and what's important to me. so that's been a through line through my whole life. And Yeah. I'm trying to think how it has changed over time. I'd like to share one story that this makes me think of. That's okay.
Katie Grace: Mm-hmm.
Elizabeth Hill: when I married my ex-husband, who's the father of my kids, and he's a he's a solid great guy, right? Like we were married for 12 years, we did get divorced. But when I married him, I had really been taught that everyone who wasn't a witness was bad. I was taught that they were like no good.
Katie Grace: Mm.
Elizabeth Hill: And I met him and I was like, this guy's good.
Katie Grace: Mm-hmm.
Elizabeth Hill: He's a good one. He's like probably the only one that's not a like not a witness in good.
Katie Grace: Mm-hmm.
Elizabeth Hill: We didn't have a lot in common at all. Right?
Katie Grace: Mm-hmm.
Elizabeth Hill: Like, but I was like, he's a good one. I'm gonna I'm gonna marry this good one.
Katie Grace: Mm-hmm.
Elizabeth Hill: And like I needed to learn about myself to figure out what I needed because I didn't
Katie Grace: Mm.
Elizabeth Hill: know. And I get, you know, like
Katie Grace: Yeah.
Elizabeth Hill: I married pretty young and I, you know, not too young. I was 25. but that was a lasting impact that I didn't even realize until later, right? Like it I wasn't thinking consciously, I need to find one good guy and all these evil people. Like that wasn't I like I don't but it was
Katie Grace: Yeah.
Elizabeth Hill: something that so it's just like it can have a lot of impact, like and it can take a while to sort out.
Katie Grace: yeah.
Elizabeth Hill: And we don't even realize the things that are impacted by it.
Katie Grace: Yeah. And sometimes we won't for years and years because in order to do that, we have to have the awareness and the ability to even recognize, you know, certain patterns or emotions, you know, just doing that work within ourselves. Then we need language for it. And I
Elizabeth Hill: Mm-hmm.
Katie Grace: think even even those buckets right there can
Elizabeth Hill: Yeah.
Katie Grace: take years to sift through. And then when you finally Okay, I understand this about myself. Well, now you might be You might have grown into an entirely new version of yourself or you're just coming home to who you always were and who you were living before was a series of masks that weren't ever truly authentically you.
Elizabeth Hill: Another example of this is when I so I got got my bachelor's in theater and psychology, which I was really literally trying to just figure out my brain and everyone in my family and everything, like diagnose everybody. That's what I was doing for my bachelor's. And then my then I got my master's in social work and I focused in community organization. And that was because I literally continued to feel like I needed to save the world.
Katie Grace: Mm.
Elizabeth Hill: I still felt that way. Like I it's my job. Like, what on earth? This, like, this is my job. It's my job to save the world. But I'm instead of teaching them about God, I'm going to, you know, help them in their communities. Right. and you know, so that's that's the work I was doing for a long time. Not pausing to think, what am I actually good at? What do I actually really enjoy? Right. But I spent fifteen years in the nonprofits just like, where's the need? What c what should I do? Where's
Katie Grace: Mm-hmm.
Elizabeth Hill: the need? What should I do? And all that like it felt good to be part of something bigger than myself and like feel like 'cause as a witness also we weren't really involved in any kind of community outreach like that, like doing stuff like feeding people or like they witnesses don't do that sort of benefiting thing, right? Like for the communities. I had 15 years basically of me just responding and doing that sort of stuff. And then I kind of woke up and was like, what do I actually enjoy doing and what am I good at? And then I had this awareness, this it really was an awakening of wait, we're all here on earth and we're all given different things that we we are really good at. And if we all just do those things, the world has everything it needs.
Katie Grace: Yeah.
Elizabeth Hill: And we don't have to go figure out, like, we don't have to respond to the world in the way of just let what do you need? I'll do it. What do you need? I do it. Right.
Katie Grace: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Elizabeth Hill: which, you know, as a witness, you weren't, and I think a lot of religions are like this. It's like there was no nothing for me to do that was based on what who I was.
Katie Grace: Mm-hmm.
Elizabeth Hill: It was everyone had to do. Whatever the th the need was.
Katie Grace: Yeah.
Elizabeth Hill: Right.
Katie Grace: Mm-hmm.
Elizabeth Hill: So
Katie Grace: I love that. I that resonates very deeply. I think that it was probably in 2020 when I first heard about having like a savior complex. And as soon
Elizabeth Hill: Mm.
Katie Grace: as I heard about that and started looking into all that that can entail, the different ways that it can look, I was just like, this is me for sure. And this it's no wonder. Like I understand I could look at that part of myself with a lot of grace, a lot of compassion. I understand where it came from, but even when I had been deconstructing already, you know, I I was able to then look at my life and think, I'm still carrying the weight, like you said, of trying to save the world because that is all I know how to do. That was so deeply ingrained within us. So I love that you came to this realization of every person just having these unique gifts and abilities and stories and things that they're They're here, you know, to live it out. And if they can have support in living that out, then the world is a much more beautiful and healed place. And you can just support them in that. You don't have to actually do anything for them. I would love as we're starting to bring this in for a close, I would love to hear more about then. I'm assuming that is what led you into founding Greenheart Living Press and the types of stories and people that you work with now.
Elizabeth Hill: Yeah, so I what happened was I wrote my first book that was based on the things that, you know, basically helping me cope with anxiety, all the things I'd done to rewire my brain. And so that was called Green Your Heart, Green Your World. Ironically, the subtitle is about saving the world.
Katie Grace: Love it, love it.
Elizabeth Hill: Yep, pretty present there. Younger version,
Katie Grace: Younger younger version of you, yeah.
Elizabeth Hill: still saving the world. and it was about like helping people not burn out while they're in that process, right? So I wrote that book and published it. I was still working in the nonprofits, but after I published that, I st I was building a coaching practice, right? And then people started coming to me and they start, you know, I had one person who was like, I'm writing this memoir. about my mother and I would really like help along the way. I coached her on other things, And then I said, yeah, I could help you with your book, sure. And then I had somebody else come and be like, you self-published your book. I'd really like to do that too. could you help me? And I was like, yeah, absolutely. So then I turned I'm building the coaching practice, thinking I'm building this coat this coaching practice that's going to help people stop from burning out. while they're trying to save the world. Right. This is what I was that I was doing. And I look around and eight out of my ten clients had wanted to do books or write books. And I w I was like,
Katie Grace: Incredible. Yeah.
Elizabeth Hill: what? I was like, could I actually just do books for my life? What? And
Katie Grace: Mm-hmm.
Elizabeth Hill: like that that was like such like little girl Liz who played library in her bedroom. Like had books that you could check out right from my bedroom. That's what I did. Like to be able to make books and write stories and play on typewriters and computers every day. Like this is a dream job for me. And like have conversations with people, like what? And
Katie Grace: Mm.
Elizabeth Hill: you know, you know, me who always loved be doing theater and storytelling and all of that, that's what this is, right? It's it's I get to have that aspect of it too by being on podcasts and stages and like talking with people about their stories and having them craft them. Right. So
Katie Grace: it's like the center of that Venn diagram. It's the very core of
Elizabeth Hill: Yes.
Katie Grace: it all. Yeah.
Elizabeth Hill: It's so and once that clicked, I was like, what? And then it's just grown like this. And it's so it's it's I've I've published, I think it's 85 books now or 86 books. I've helped over 200 people now become published authors. And it just keeps, you know, I know that this is what I'm here to do on the earth. Like I can tell. And I'm so glad that I just followed the breadcrumbs to get to this spot because I'm hooked on transform the transformation that's possible from sharing your story, right? I I know from I did theater, I did art, I did, you know, so much writing, right? Like these things are that that expression of of our truth,
Katie Grace: Mm.
Elizabeth Hill: right? And sometimes our truth might, in theater, it might look like you're acting out somebody else's life, right? Sometimes it can look sometimes when you write it could be fiction, right? But that expression of what's true to you, it is so healing. Not just for you as a person, like it's healing for you, but it's also healing for the person that's hearing it, right? Books literally help me reconstruct my brain and know that other things are possible. And
Katie Grace: yep.
Elizabeth Hill: so, right? So it helps the person, it helps the person who's reading it, right? It's so, so amazing. so once I I started feeling that and seeing what's possible when people get their book into book form and are sharing their stories, I'm like, this is it, man. Like this I'm so hooked on that transformation that people get to experience. And it feels like such an honor to witness it and be part. it's so funny I use the word witness in a different way. But it's like I'm a different kind of witness, you know, like a different
Katie Grace: I didn't even catch that.
Elizabeth Hill: witness now. This is like, so I, you know. Going door to door as a pioneer, I was I was peddling paper. Like we were doing magazines, we were like putting so we'd have a different kind of book that we do now, but like
Katie Grace: Yeah. Still a witness, still working with literature.
Elizabeth Hill: Look, look at this. yeah, so it's it's I'm so grateful that I get to do what I do. And and I honor what I how I was raised because I don't know if I didn't wasn't raised the way I was raised and I don't know if I'd be who I am today. And I do really love who I am today. So
Katie Grace: Yeah.
Elizabeth Hill: I gotta be grateful for whatever happened and went down, you
Katie Grace: Yeah.
Elizabeth Hill: know.
Katie Grace: Yeah.
Elizabeth Hill: Then so yeah.
Katie Grace: Mm. I love that. And I love that you are here and doing what you're doing. You're excellent at what you do. And I'm just so thankful for the stories that you've helped to put out into the world and for sharing your own here today. Thank you so much. Thank
Elizabeth Hill: Aww, thank you.
Katie Grace: you. Of course. Where can people, if they want to hear more about, you know, your books, your work, if they want to connect with you personally, I can put all of these things in the show notes, but where would you just like quickly direct them to?
Elizabeth Hill: Yes, the easiest way to find me is greenheartliving dot com.
Katie Grace: Perfect. GreenheartLiving.com. That'll be in the show notes. And my goodness, it has just been such a joy to talk with you today, just on a more like personal level and actually hear so much of your story. There is a ton of overlap in ours. I knew that, but hearing certain things like even the fact that you were married for twelve years and I was married for twelve years, that's just wild. Yeah.
Elizabeth Hill: Isn't that wild? Yeah.
Katie Grace: But my gosh, it's been so wonderful to work with you too. And I'm just really excited to finish publishing with you. I think by the time this episode comes out, it'll be about a month my book will be released December 1st. So really, really soon. So
Elizabeth Hill: so exciting. Yeah. I can't wait.
Katie Grace: excited. thank you so much for being here today. And then for the listeners, if you loved this episode, if you love like the heart of the Reconstructing podcast, which is really just to Help people explore and ask the tough questions about what is coming up when the lives that we once built for ourselves no longer fit. What do we do now? What do we keep? What do we let go of? What do we build next? Then, you know, you can continue listening to the Reconstructing Podcast. And if you find yourself wishing that you could have more conversations like this yourself, then I would love to invite you to come and sit at the table, which is going to be a virtual space that I'm gonna be opening up for community. So by the time this airs, I think it should be open. Everything will be in the show notes in how you can get connected to that. And it's basically going to be just a virtual community that allows people who are curious, questioning their belief systems, healing from fear-based, high control religions or environments, and figuring out what's next to come together and have discussions like this. each month we're gonna have a book club. And then we'll be able to have a monthly conversation just with some questions and thoughts around it all. When we're lucky, we'll be able to actually sit down with the author or at least a guest speaker who can have some expertise on that topic to share with us. So I'm really excited. I would love for you to pull up a chair at this table so you can find all of that information in the show notes or just visit the katygrace.com to find more. Thank you so much for being here today.
