Learning & Recognition: Rethinking Workplace Behavior with Paul Matthews | Episode 12

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So Paul Matthews, welcome.
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It's great to have just a short intro, the founder, CEO and learning and development expert, and the CEO of, sorry, of People Alchemy and Kiwi living in the UK.
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Yeah, so it's great to have you on.
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I really appreciate that.
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Should we kick off?
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I'd love to hear a bit about your background from the...
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from the start in New Zealand as a kid, what got you interested in learning?
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God.
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No, well, I certainly wasn't interested in learning back then.
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was a simple farm boy messing about.
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Yeah, I learned at school, you know, and I was keen on reading and learning and all of those things.
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But I certainly didn't see myself going into a learning and development career, even if I'd known what the heck that was.
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Yes.
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But engineering, suppose, was where I was headed.
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Even though I came off a sheep farm, I was much more interested in the machinery than looking after six sheep.
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Right.
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so you, were always into the engineering, into the machinery piece.
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That was, that was all your bent, was it?
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Yeah, probably more than livestock, yeah.
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And is that what you, so you pursued that side of things.
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You went long into engineering.
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Yeah, Long story short, but yes, ended up after some time getting an engineering degree and staying to some extent in agriculture because I specialized in agricultural engineering and ended up working with an outfit designing farm machinery and things like that, which was fascinating.
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So I kind of joined everything together there.
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right, and your path sort of led you to South America from my research.
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that, you know?
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yeah.
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my parents are actually born over there.
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So it was always something I wanted to visit and travel was always one.
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You know, when you're a kid, some kids want to be a fireman, some want to be a jet fighter pilot like my brother did, and others want to be this.
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And I remember asking my parents some time back when they were still alive, you know, what that I always want to be when I grew up and because I'd forgotten.
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And they said, well, nothing really.
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But you always talked about traveling.
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So that was And that eventually happened and South America was always on the list because of my family roots there and I still had relations there.
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So yeah, I spent a fair bit of time wandering around there, which is fascinating.
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and whereabouts in particular.
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Pretty much all of it.
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I over a year there, I suppose, in total time on more than one visit, backpacking around lots of different places.
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And did you weave in any of your engineering or anything like that?
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Or is it was really sort of find yourself kind of travel for, you know.
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it was a find yourself kind of travel or find other things.
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I'm not sure I was looking to find myself, but I was just intrigued with everything that was out there.
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But one of the things that I that was quite startling is I was on a bus and I think it was Ecuador from memory.
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I can't remember.
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driving past a farm machinery lot of used farm machinery in one of the seed drills I had designed when I was back in New Zealand many years earlier was sitting there in the the secondhand machinery lot by the side of the road.
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Yeah.
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Did you feel a bit old at that point when you saw something you'd...
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I startled more than anything else.
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And then I coughed, remembered we were sending containerfuls of the seed drills to South America over many years, and I was there.
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It was one of our export markets.
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So what reflection, probably not that surprising, but that it was still there and usable.
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I mean, that was pretty cool.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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No, that's true.
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And so, and then you came back to New Zealand and...
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Yeah, by that time I'd kind of left New Zealand and I've obviously been back on quite a few occasions to visit family and mess around but never really lived there again.
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Lived in different parts of the world and probably more in the UK than anywhere else.
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And how did engineering, so you went engineering, how did that morph into learning and development L &D?
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I've often got some interesting things.
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I couldn't get a real job.
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So I ended up in L and D, but I don't think that's really fair on the L and D community.
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I, it was more by accident because I was working with an organization, as a sort of a service manager and what have you.
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And this was an electronics stuff.
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so still engineering up to a point, and managing some reasonable size teams in that, in that business.
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And.
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One of the things that we did was send them off to various training courses with big training companies and the very traditional way that was happening in the sort of the late 90s timeframe, I suppose it was.
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And one of the people I sent on a course, they messed it up really badly.
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He ended up in the wrong city and couldn't attend the course because he'd got bad joining instructions.
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Mm-hmm.
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this company came back to me and said, well, we'll give you a free course for somebody.
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And then a little while later, I was at a point where I'd left that company, but I hadn't yet told this training company I'd left.
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I went and took this free course myself because I said, you owe me one.
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yeah, we remember that.
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And they gave me a, so I just went on a management skills course, which was really interesting.
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And.
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And on the second day at lunchtime, the guy running the course said, come and have lunch with me.
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So I did.
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And we sat and he said, what are you doing here?
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So, and I explained that I was now sort of, you know, out of harness and looking around thinking what do I do next?
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And he said, well, why don't you become a trainer?
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So that was what got me into L &D, strangely enough.
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And I went and worked with that training company as a trainer for a while.
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Yep.
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part-time, but went through their train the trainer course.
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And that was the days when there were, you you'd be given 200 acetate slides for an overhead projector for, you know, for a four day course and bow your way through this curriculum with a bunch of people, some of whom wanted to be there, many of them not.
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And it was...
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how many people in these courses?
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Usually 20 in a cohort.
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And then you ended up getting a bonus if you got a good happy sheet at the end of it, which was completely irrelevant to whether it was a good course or not.
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But of course, the training company was interested in people going back and saying that was a wonderful course because then they might well sell some more units.
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But there was just nothing we were doing at all in terms of what these people were going to do afterwards, how they were going to use it, you know, other than just saying, you know, you'd ask a few questions during the course, but mostly it was a, you know, pump and dump, you know, sort of push the content at them and ask them, do they understand that model of management or team or whatever?
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But very little about how they were going to use it.
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And so how did that feel?
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was, I must've felt unfulfilling as a trainer to...
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Well, it was interesting and fulfilling in the fact that I was doing something new and it was interesting and fascinating, but I wasn't really at that stage really thinking much about the afterwards.
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I was thinking, well, this is how it's done.
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They've taught me, you know, the current methodology and I was delivering it.
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And it was kind of fun being the sage on the stage and saying to people, I know everything and you know nothing.
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You know, I'm going to tell you the way the world should work.
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Yep.
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yeah, there's a certain amount of glory in that, suppose.
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But I look back now and horror what I was doing.
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and, and I think it was after that and sometime later where I was doing some more training, you know, on my own account and people were saying the workbook you gave me is great.
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It's the only one I keep on my desk.
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Hmm.
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I put a lot of effort into those.
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And then I started to realize actually what they want is ongoing support.
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It's kind of information.
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It's help as they need it in the real time rather than being put in the classroom for a week.
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And because that was the days where a week's training was not unusual.
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And of course, it's a huge amount of information and overwhelming.
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And most people remembered so little of it.
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And then, of course, I came across the Ebbinghaus forgetting curve.
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And that's when I started to think, bloody hell, this is broken.
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You know, there's something not right here.
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And that's kind of when my engineering mind kicked in and said, well, hang on.
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If I was an engineer doing this with this obvious rate of failure, you know, I'd be killing my customers.
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and that's not good.
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So that, that's when I started to think about training as something that was broken in the way it was being delivered back then.
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And in the way that I was being told was the right way to deliver it.
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said, no, this, this isn't right.
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Hmm.
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This is not achieving much.
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This is not returning on the investment that people are putting in it.
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Not always, but more often than not, there was a failure of something.
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Fire of outputs.
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It was that.
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Yeah, well, it, wasn't necessarily helping the people who are on the course be better or get their jobs done easier.
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It was filling their head full of a bunch of things.
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And then later on they'd be sitting there thinking, perhaps I should be using that funny team model that I was taught.
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I can't remember it.
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What the hell.
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then they just go back to what they used to do.
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so I simply couldn't apply the models that, okay, got it.
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ongoing, there was no kind of practice it.
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Now that could just simply be because at that stage, that's how I was taught as a trainer by that training company.
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And that was the way most people were doing it.
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But what I have found since there were people back in that day, chap called Guy Wallace in the States, for example, who's been posting on LinkedIn a lot recently about his experience.
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Yes.
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And he was a lot further ahead in terms of figuring a lot of this stuff out based on some of the mentors he had.
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So it's not that those ideas or the better ideas were not there.
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It's just that we're very, very thinly spread back in the nineties and early two thousands.
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So, but anyway, I didn't know that at the time.
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So I started looking at different stuff and ended up writing some books in the learning and development space, partly just cause I said, hang on, there's something wrong.
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How can I reach a lot of people quickly with.
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you know, some decent ideas.
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And so that sort of got me researching.
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Sorry.
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what, would you, how would you sort of characterize the, the change, the difference between, you know, learning that, results in sort of little recall and little application to the problems that these people who were supposed to have been taught something deal with every day and what you do now, what was the, what's the Delta?
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It's been a torturous journey as all of these things usually are to get from, you know, where I was, which is, you know, that traditional training model through to, well, what are we really trying to achieve here?
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So I suppose I went back to some of my early sort of engineering design principles that I learned, you know, my engineering degree is figure out what the outcome is first and start from there and work backwards.
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And a lot of that was you know, talking to people who are going to use a bit of farm machinery, for example, well, what are you going to use it for?
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How are you going to use it?
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You know, what tractor are you going to use to pull it with?
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How many horsepowers has that got?
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And really get into some of the detail of what's really needed here.
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And then realize that some people are going to use it in stupid ways.
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So you better beef up the strength because they're going to use a chisel plow to pull out tree stumps with, and that's not what it's designed for, but you could use it for that.
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But of course, it's got to be a lot.
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meaty a bit of equipment to pull a stump out, not break.
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So it's that kind of thinking that got me into looking at, what is our outcome when we're training?
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And I soon realized the outcome wasn't to deliver a course to people with a set curriculum and then get a five out of five happy sheet score at the end of it.
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That was a stupid outcome, but that's the outcome that most people were kind of working towards in the training.
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Mm-hmm.
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organizationally and otherwise.
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And organizational learning, I'm not talking about education, school and things.
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That's a different debate and that's broken as well, but that's another story.
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So that got me thinking, well, what is the...
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in terms of soft skills you know management leadership that sort of stuff is that what you're talking about or or is it also okay computer programming to and yes, all the soft skills to feedback skills, courageous conversations, leadership, whatever you want to call it, you know, through to specifics about how to use this computer controlled lathe.
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You know, how to how to how to drive this digger on a construction site safely, how to all of those sorts of things.
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There's a whole gamut of stuff.
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And I started to think, well, what is the goal of this training really?
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And soon started to realize, albeit slowly, you know, it takes a while to get into this thick skull.
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We want people doing things the way we want them to do them rather than the way they're doing them right now.
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Cause otherwise I wouldn't be thinking about training.
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So the first indicator that the first time that training comes up in the conversation is when people aren't doing things the way you want them to do them.
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okay.
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Because it sounds like a kind of a truism at first blush, but yeah, right.
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It's interesting.
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So the only reason we're even talking about training is cause this group of people is not doing things the way we want them to do them.
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Or possibly because we don't think they're capable of doing things the way we want them to do them in six months time when that new software system kicks in or that new bit of machinery arrives on site or whatever.
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Yeah.
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so there might be a future pacing view in that, but basically it's about people.
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They're not doing things the way we want them to do them.
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So, well, okay, why not?
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And the typical default reaction is, well, they don't know how, so let's train them how.
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Now that may or may not be true, but then as soon as I think about, well, let's train them how to use this or how to do that or how to be a leader or how to have a courageous conversation or how to program this sort of thing in Python or, you know, PHP or whatever.
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Then you think, well, actually, what are all the things they need to know to do that?
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And then it defaults into a curriculum based delivery of knowledge rather than thinking, how do I help them do things the way we want them to do them?
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In other words, what's that future set of behaviors that I want them to be doing and exhibiting consistently when our program is done.
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So when our initiative, whatever that is, finished.
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Yes.
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that set of things I want them to be doing?
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And how would I know they're doing that?
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So what would I see or hear or feel?
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What would be my direct sensory evidence criteria that they are now doing those things and doing them habitually, doing them just because that's the way we do them, doing them in a sustainable way that's fully embedded into how they do their job so that we no longer ever in the future have the same conversation again about Cause too often you give them training and then a year later you're exactly the same conversation.
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They're not doing what I want them to do.
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And they're still doing, you know, so we've completely failed.
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and how many times have I or you seen people sent off to the same training course every year, you know, in, in sort of in May to go and do the same training course.
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Cause we do that course in May and it's almost the same team doing it every year and somehow maybe one or two new members, but by and large, they're just skinned off to the same training over and over and over again.
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Something wrong here, you know?
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So yeah, that's.
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of, taking an end, so starting at the end and defining what good looks like.
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And then, so working back from the end as opposed to.
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chunking it up into various skills that becomes a syllabus that you train.
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So starting at the end.
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So how do you develop a course from that end point?
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Once you've defined what good looks like, how do you work back from there?
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Well, defining what goods looks, good looks like is actually the better place to start.
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And one of the ways I characterized it in one of the books I wrote on learning transfer, in other words, transfer of learning from a training course into, you know, operations, is most trainers started, if they were writing a book or reading a book, they start at chapter three and then they finish at chapter six when there were 10 chapters in the book.
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they, most people in the training fraternity still don't do the stuff right at the beginning they should be doing and don't do the stuff right at the end they should be doing.
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They do some stuff in the middle, often really quite well.
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But because they don't do the beginning bit, the stuff in the middle are doing well, is they're doing the wrong thing well.
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Because they haven't got the first bits and that's, you're quite right.
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You need to start with that end in mind.
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I did a podcast recently for an outfit here in the UK.
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They said, what's your...
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biggest kind of problem with L and D.
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What, you know, we want you to rant, you know, get on with it, have a good rant.
00:18:51.516 --> 00:18:56.117
And I just said, lack of clarity of the outcome is the root of all evil in L and D.
00:18:57.558 --> 00:19:00.372
and, and so it is, you're quite right.
00:19:00.372 --> 00:19:02.000
It's starting with the end point.
00:19:02.000 --> 00:19:08.883
So given they're not doing right now what we want them to do, that's the start point.
00:19:08.903 --> 00:19:11.565
Some managers said they're not doing what I want them to do.
00:19:11.565 --> 00:19:12.244
Okay.
00:19:12.244 --> 00:19:15.625
Now let's have a conversation on what you want them to do instead.
00:19:15.684 --> 00:19:16.460
Yeah.
00:19:16.713 --> 00:19:24.767
And then if you want them to do those things instead consistently and embedded, they're gonna, and a lot of that will be a skill.
00:19:24.767 --> 00:19:27.637
be, need to acquire the skill in some way.
00:19:27.758 --> 00:19:36.701
And in order, and then once you've got those skills, then they'll be able to go and exhibit those behaviors that we want regularly and consistently.
00:19:36.708 --> 00:19:40.539
And so does that mean it becomes a much more bespoke affair?
00:19:40.539 --> 00:19:57.738
Because if you're starting at the end, you know, you're establishing what good looks like, and then you're sort of looking at what what your student where they're at, where they're lacking, some would be lacking in some skills, others would be lacking in other skills.
00:19:57.817 --> 00:20:00.699
Some might be completely motivation.
00:20:01.531 --> 00:20:06.579
related, some might be fully motivated, but have no idea.
00:20:07.041 --> 00:20:12.892
So it does that mean that you start to sort of do one to one kind of training?
00:20:12.892 --> 00:20:15.002
How could you train many people?
00:20:15.002 --> 00:20:16.463
no, that's interesting.
00:20:16.463 --> 00:20:21.945
I mean, if you're scaling to a company with 40, 50,000 people, you're not going to be able to do that.
00:20:22.326 --> 00:20:25.047
if you've got a little small group, maybe you can.
00:20:25.126 --> 00:20:34.201
I'm not advocating necessarily doing individual stuff for individual people, although in the way you deliver a program, there are ways to do that.
00:20:34.201 --> 00:20:35.731
That works really well.
00:20:35.731 --> 00:20:41.811
So you do get a customized learning program for each learner, but not by changing the content.
00:20:41.811 --> 00:20:48.928
and the process of that course, it's by the way you deliver it at the point of reception that you can make that change.
00:20:48.928 --> 00:20:58.115
I can come back onto that in a minute, but if we start at the front end, which is what I tend to call a behavioral needs analysis.
00:20:58.214 --> 00:21:05.580
So never ever start with a learning or training needs analysis, because you're automatically assuming there there's going to be training or learning that'll be needed.
00:21:05.580 --> 00:21:07.623
So start first with a behavioral need.
00:21:07.623 --> 00:21:10.855
What is the set of behaviors that we want to come out the other end of this?
00:21:10.855 --> 00:21:12.233
In other words, Mr.
00:21:12.233 --> 00:21:14.535
Manager or Mrs.
00:21:15.375 --> 00:21:22.960
what set of behaviors do you want to see that'll make you happy that we don't have to have this conversation ever again about these particular set of behaviors?
00:21:22.960 --> 00:21:23.800
What are they?
00:21:23.800 --> 00:21:32.905
Let's define them and let's talk about what you will see or hear or feel or notice when those behaviors are there.
00:21:32.905 --> 00:21:40.528
And that may be directly observing the behavior or it may be some first or second order result of that behavior being exhibited.
00:21:40.784 --> 00:21:44.059
What is a behavior as opposed to a skill?
00:21:44.059 --> 00:21:45.770
is an observable action.
00:21:45.770 --> 00:21:49.472
That's in its simplest sort of definition.
00:21:50.413 --> 00:21:53.026
So someone is doing something, it's observable.
00:21:53.026 --> 00:22:00.400
So that's how the psychologists or the behavioral economists and people like that will describe a behavior.
00:22:01.240 --> 00:22:10.605
This guy I have spoken at conferences with here in the UK around behaviors, and he's head of one of the big sort of behavioral.
00:22:12.940 --> 00:22:20.981
pieces of the government that does work with the UK government on general public behavior like smoking and overeating and all of those things.
00:22:20.981 --> 00:22:27.193
He's the one that is head of a whole unit that looks at how to nudge the population in certain directions.
00:22:27.953 --> 00:22:31.654
So that's all that, Phaler's work on nudge theory and all the rest of it.
00:22:32.035 --> 00:22:36.477
And his definition of a behavior, and this is the one he uses, an observable action.
00:22:36.477 --> 00:22:42.077
So what observable actions do we need to be taking place in the future?
00:22:42.344 --> 00:22:44.865
And it may be you can observe the action directly.
00:22:44.865 --> 00:22:47.756
It may be it's a way to write a report.
00:22:47.756 --> 00:22:53.497
So therefore, the observable thing that you can see is that finished report done in a specific way.
00:22:53.717 --> 00:22:57.617
So you don't see them writing the report, but you do see the result of that action.
00:22:58.898 --> 00:23:05.380
So it might be the action itself, or it might be like a first or second order result of that action occurring.
00:23:05.380 --> 00:23:11.122
So given you've got that result, that action must have occurred at somewhere prior to that result.
00:23:11.829 --> 00:23:13.391
So that's how you can define them.
00:23:13.391 --> 00:23:17.073
that's, and you've got to define them in observable terms like that.
00:23:17.993 --> 00:23:20.855
so it's a bit like a sat nav.
00:23:20.855 --> 00:23:28.240
If you know where you're starting from and you know where you're to get to the sat nav will help you understand how far along that journey you've got.
00:23:28.240 --> 00:23:33.464
So you need to be able to say, we were here and we want to go over there behaviorally.
00:23:33.464 --> 00:23:37.086
Say how much progress have we made from point A to point B?
00:23:37.086 --> 00:23:41.730
You don't know that until you've got somewhere observing whether that behavior is starting to occur.
00:23:41.730 --> 00:23:44.759
or already occurring and so on.
00:23:44.759 --> 00:23:47.670
So you need that yardstick to measure.
00:23:47.769 --> 00:24:07.769
And one of the neat questions you can ask someone is when they are helping you define the evidence criteria for those behaviors occurring is, okay, if we were 100 % successful with our initiative, whatever that happens to be, what would you see here or feel that would give you comfort that we're 100 % successful?
00:24:07.769 --> 00:24:11.977
Now, if we were only 50 % successful, How would that be different?
00:24:11.977 --> 00:24:13.117
What would you see instead?
00:24:13.117 --> 00:24:20.271
And that makes them start thinking about those measures in a more granular or graduated fashion.
00:24:20.413 --> 00:24:23.433
So that's your behavioral definitions at the end.
00:24:23.535 --> 00:24:32.961
then, and you often have to look at the task of someone, you know, given this task, what behaviors or actions do they need to take to do that task effectively?
00:24:32.961 --> 00:24:36.013
And then you can say, okay, that's the set of behaviors we want.
00:24:36.013 --> 00:24:39.490
I've got them signed off with the client, with the customer, with the manager.
00:24:39.490 --> 00:24:41.490
but those are the behaviors they want.
00:24:42.171 --> 00:24:44.811
Now, how do we deliver those behaviors?
00:24:44.811 --> 00:24:50.663
Now there's your crunch question, not what curriculum do we deliver, but how do we deliver those behaviors?
00:24:50.663 --> 00:24:58.836
Now, given this cohort or this target group, on average, so create a persona in your mind, who are they?
00:24:58.836 --> 00:24:59.846
What are they looking for?
00:24:59.846 --> 00:25:00.536
What do they want?
00:25:00.536 --> 00:25:01.465
What's good for them?
00:25:01.465 --> 00:25:03.616
How do they want to do things?
00:25:03.777 --> 00:25:08.147
And then say, how do we take that group from where they are right now behaviorally?
00:25:08.321 --> 00:25:11.364
to the destination, the behavioral destination we want.
00:25:11.364 --> 00:25:14.244
How do we deliver those behaviors to that group?
00:25:14.505 --> 00:25:18.186
What would be the set of steps they would need to take over a period of time?
00:25:18.186 --> 00:25:20.807
Because you'll never deliver a behavior in an event.
00:25:21.628 --> 00:25:32.224
It will be a set of steps over time, which will involve practice, experimentation, reflection, some absorption of knowledge, and then practicing skills.
00:25:32.224 --> 00:25:35.936
So there's always going to be knowledge required, typically a little bit of new knowledge.
00:25:35.936 --> 00:25:38.208
There will be some practice required.
00:25:38.238 --> 00:25:43.221
and to get a skill up to a point where it's usable and adequate.
00:25:43.221 --> 00:25:51.346
And then those skills can be constructed together as actions that will then become the behaviors that you see in practice.
00:25:51.426 --> 00:25:54.888
So you've always got that knowledge, skills and behaviors to think about.
00:25:55.109 --> 00:26:01.637
What set of knowledge, skills and behaviors are we looking for that will mean we've got a success out of this training program?
00:26:01.637 --> 00:26:22.314
Right, okay, so the difference that we've just discussed is be very clear on what good looks like on a behavioral sense, what those end actions look like, understand where the student is at at the present time.
00:26:22.334 --> 00:26:40.385
So you have a clear view of the delta of the task in front of you and then deliver the teaching in a way that it results in that end goal that you're looking for.
00:26:40.426 --> 00:26:45.567
So it's almost deconstructing learning.
00:26:46.587 --> 00:26:51.609
taking away from the syllabus, because syllabus just is the latter.
00:26:51.609 --> 00:26:55.869
It's the sort of the non-thinking version of you need to...
00:26:57.084 --> 00:27:00.491
And it's deconstructing that and reassembling it.
00:27:00.567 --> 00:27:01.338
Yeah.
00:27:01.476 --> 00:27:02.416
Okay.
00:27:02.458 --> 00:27:07.585
And is it, is it reductionist to sort of give it a mnemonic or anything like that?
00:27:07.585 --> 00:27:17.318
Have you done that a framework like that or I use an analogy actually, and you got three out of the four critical success factors there in terms of what you said.
00:27:17.941 --> 00:27:21.423
So an analogy I use is a sat nav.
00:27:22.584 --> 00:27:30.689
You put Google on your phone or whatever sat nav you're using and there's four things that need to be in place for that sat nav to work.
00:27:30.930 --> 00:27:37.473
And other identical four things you need for that learning journey to work to cross that delta as you put it.
00:27:37.473 --> 00:27:41.015
the behavioral gap from where they are now to where you want them to be.
00:27:41.515 --> 00:27:43.536
So those four are, you've got to know where you are now.
00:27:43.536 --> 00:27:46.296
What's our current behavioral location?
00:27:46.317 --> 00:27:49.076
What's our current physical location for a sat nav?
00:27:49.076 --> 00:27:50.137
You've got to know where you are.
00:27:50.137 --> 00:27:55.278
If you don't know where you are, it's pretty impossible to figure out how you're to get someplace else.
00:27:56.640 --> 00:27:58.519
You've got to know where you want to get to.
00:27:58.519 --> 00:28:01.534
If you don't know where you want to get to, your sat nav's not going to work.
00:28:01.534 --> 00:28:05.162
So you've got to put a destination in there, whatever that destination is.
00:28:05.685 --> 00:28:15.394
You then need a set of step-by-step, that's the ladder you just described, a set of turn-by-turn instructions that fit, that's fit for purpose for getting you from point A to point B.
00:28:15.394 --> 00:28:27.583
So it's, you've got to have behaviorally a set of step-by-step actions to take over time that will get you reliably from your current behaviors to the behaviors you want instead.
00:28:27.702 --> 00:28:30.444
In other words, to that behavioral gap.
00:28:31.442 --> 00:28:36.903
And those step-by-step instructions are kind of the ladder or the scaffold that will help you do that.
00:28:36.903 --> 00:28:45.645
And then the fourth critical one is some way to hold people accountable for taking those actions and steps along the way from point A to point B.
00:28:45.645 --> 00:28:46.798
And the Sat Nav does that.
00:28:46.798 --> 00:28:53.847
If you go off route, the Sat Nav will say that the first opportunity, make a legal U-turn to get back on the route.
00:28:54.347 --> 00:28:59.430
Or it'll direct you around some side roads if you insist on not taking the main road because there's roadworks there.
00:28:59.430 --> 00:29:09.788
So the Sat Nav has built-in correction procedure that monitors your progress based on the criteria you've set for a destination.
00:29:10.169 --> 00:29:17.134
Again, notice how this is similar to having a behavioral destination with a set of description of what that looks like.
00:29:17.835 --> 00:29:23.118
You can then measure your progress towards achieving those criteria.
00:29:23.118 --> 00:29:24.339
It's the same with the SantNav.
00:29:24.339 --> 00:29:27.040
It'll tell you you're halfway through your journey.
00:29:28.021 --> 00:29:29.573
You know, and that's great.
00:29:29.573 --> 00:29:36.146
you know, and there's a sense of kind of safety in having that roadmap and so on in front of you.
00:29:36.567 --> 00:29:39.289
So, you've got to have, you got to know where you're starting from.
00:29:39.289 --> 00:29:41.751
You got to know, well, what's wrong with what's there now?
00:29:41.751 --> 00:29:43.874
Where do you want to be instead behaviorally?
00:29:43.874 --> 00:29:49.636
What's the set of a fit for purpose set of step-by-step actions that we need to take these people through?
00:29:49.657 --> 00:29:51.878
Now, some of that might be consume some content.
00:29:51.878 --> 00:29:53.250
Some of it will be reflection.
00:29:53.250 --> 00:29:54.800
Some of it will be experimentation.
00:29:54.800 --> 00:29:55.798
Some of it will be...
00:29:55.798 --> 00:29:58.329
discussion with colleagues on their experiences of trying it.
00:29:58.329 --> 00:30:04.125
Some of it will be experimentation and then practice and then more practice and then a bit more learning.
00:30:04.125 --> 00:30:10.089
So you tend to get a process of a bit of learning and then some practice, then a bit more learning and a bit of practice.
00:30:10.089 --> 00:30:23.776
So generally that'll work better that way, where you're bolting into the way the mind learns with lots of experiences, rather than just feeding them a whole bunch of content and hoping they can make a translation from that into their workflow.
00:30:23.776 --> 00:30:25.824
and into an experience that will actually help them learn.
00:30:25.824 --> 00:30:28.946
It's really interesting.
00:30:28.946 --> 00:30:30.568
they don't want to do it?
00:30:30.568 --> 00:30:32.386
So the reason I ask that...
00:30:32.386 --> 00:30:33.887
disagree with that.
00:30:34.009 --> 00:30:37.811
Very often they do want to get things better for themselves.
00:30:37.811 --> 00:30:41.194
So a lot of it is helping them understand the mindset of the learner.
00:30:41.194 --> 00:30:44.157
There's several factors that got to be in place for that.
00:30:46.820 --> 00:30:48.531
You put salt in the oats.
00:30:48.626 --> 00:31:10.380
if I can give you, if I can give you like that, if I can give you an example in the construction industry, because that's my background, my equivalent to farming is construction, is the, safety in particular, is that you get these subcontractors, these builders.
00:31:10.531 --> 00:31:17.013
And they and there's this heavy learning and development piece to safety in the construction industry.
00:31:17.013 --> 00:31:22.715
Safety first, you want to go home to your family safely, all those posters on the wall.
00:31:23.476 --> 00:31:29.038
And so they sit you down and they go induction time, we're going to induct you.
00:31:29.397 --> 00:31:34.849
Now induction is a form of training, in a sense, so kind of a micro training.
00:31:36.132 --> 00:31:40.712
Now these guys know 90 % of what's being said in the induction.
00:31:40.712 --> 00:31:43.233
They're not doing it for their learning.
00:31:43.233 --> 00:31:49.195
They're doing it because the company knows that they need to do it to show duty of care.
00:31:49.195 --> 00:31:52.895
So the company's doing to cover their legal butt.
00:31:53.416 --> 00:32:02.019
And so there's this morphing of, of training people who don't want to be trained and, that sort of thing.
00:32:02.019 --> 00:32:03.288
It's a motivational issue.
00:32:03.288 --> 00:32:09.775
Their safety issues on site are generally motivational issues, not so much learning and development.
00:32:10.375 --> 00:32:14.179
So, and I guess there's always that with learning, isn't there?
00:32:14.179 --> 00:32:17.162
You either don't know how, or you don't want to.
00:32:17.162 --> 00:32:29.692
How do you, if you're structuring up a course, are you just assuming that they are going to want to, and then you can focus on the don't know how piece or?
00:32:30.347 --> 00:32:32.961
Well, again, this depends on your outcomes.
00:32:34.003 --> 00:32:41.015
For what you're describing, you want an outcome of people behaving in a safe way and wanting to do it.
00:32:41.297 --> 00:32:42.718
That's your outcome.
00:32:43.279 --> 00:32:44.161
Yeah.
00:32:44.273 --> 00:32:47.578
in that sense, it's not so much about learning but about motivation.
00:32:48.307 --> 00:32:54.182
And what for what you're describing, probably yes, but, but motivation, you've got to it's.
00:32:55.202 --> 00:32:56.834
Motivation is an interesting one.
00:32:56.834 --> 00:32:59.325
People tell me, these people aren't motivated.
00:32:59.325 --> 00:33:01.146
And I say, well, that's a load of rubbish.
00:33:01.146 --> 00:33:03.127
Everybody's motivated all the time.
00:33:03.127 --> 00:33:07.289
It's just that right now they're motivated to do something different to what you want them to do.
00:33:08.172 --> 00:33:12.074
you know, and that motivation to do something else, whatever that is.
00:33:12.173 --> 00:33:18.223
Take the shortcut, you know, with the digger through a part of the construction site, they shouldn't be in, you know, that sort of thing.
00:33:18.223 --> 00:33:19.031
Yeah.
00:33:19.170 --> 00:33:23.971
they, that motivation is higher at that point than, than not.
00:33:23.971 --> 00:33:28.561
And you've got to say, well, what's driving these other motivational factors.
00:33:28.561 --> 00:33:30.282
And that might be because they're on contract.
00:33:30.282 --> 00:33:31.211
They want to cut some time.
00:33:31.211 --> 00:33:35.493
They're not going to take the dig around the back end of the site, which is the safe way to do it.
00:33:35.493 --> 00:33:39.335
They're going to go right through the middle because they're on top of the clock, you know?
00:33:39.335 --> 00:33:45.115
So that, I mean, I'm just guessing an example there from my experience in construction.
00:33:45.817 --> 00:33:47.527
is that a reasonable example?
00:33:47.618 --> 00:33:49.886
Yeah, there's a payoff for go taking the shortcut.
00:33:49.886 --> 00:33:53.909
think what's driving the motivation for the current behaviors.
00:33:54.048 --> 00:33:56.921
And perhaps actually it's not a knowledge issue.
00:33:56.921 --> 00:33:58.652
It's not a training issue.
00:33:59.412 --> 00:34:01.614
It is, it's a behavioral issue.
00:34:01.614 --> 00:34:09.717
So how are we driving, how are we driving the behaviors that we're seeing on site?
00:34:09.717 --> 00:34:11.898
So it's not about them doing those behaviors.
00:34:11.898 --> 00:34:17.052
They're being driven to those behaviors by something, especially when they know the way it should be done.
00:34:17.304 --> 00:34:18.085
Mm.
00:34:18.335 --> 00:34:19.199
Yeah.
00:34:19.199 --> 00:34:24.474
that really begs the question, what's driving the behavior that's there at the moment?
00:34:24.474 --> 00:34:25.306
Hmm.
00:34:25.472 --> 00:34:26.336
Yeah.
00:34:26.336 --> 00:34:34.643
Well, I don't laziness, might be lack of knowledge, it might be, there's the inevitable knowing doing gap.
00:34:35.925 --> 00:34:38.146
And that applies across our lives.
00:34:38.146 --> 00:34:43.188
mean, most people know by and large the sort of food they should be eating.
00:34:43.329 --> 00:34:53.838
But again, and some do, but many don't follow those guidelines they kind of know in terms of fruits, vegetables and bits.
00:34:53.898 --> 00:34:58.719
So there's this knowing doing gap and it's no different on your construction site, I would guess.
00:34:58.719 --> 00:35:03.342
So as you say, they've done these inductions dozens of times on lots of different sites.
00:35:03.342 --> 00:35:08.884
There might be a few wrinkles on this particular site, but by and large it's going to be the same stuff.
00:35:10.005 --> 00:35:20.179
So the way I would run that too is I would actually get them to deliver the safety briefing themselves in a sense and just say, okay, we've got to talk about, you know, wearing hard hats and PPE.
00:35:20.179 --> 00:35:21.088
Okay.
00:35:21.088 --> 00:35:21.949
What are the rules?
00:35:21.949 --> 00:35:23.157
And you ask them.
00:35:23.157 --> 00:35:25.378
to almost deliver the course themselves.
00:35:26.699 --> 00:35:30.840
And rather than preach at them is get the knowledge out of them.
00:35:31.221 --> 00:35:38.463
One reason for that is then each of them in the room and that group of people coming on site knows all the others know this.
00:35:38.643 --> 00:35:40.184
I can't ignore it.
00:35:40.264 --> 00:35:53.119
And particularly when you use some of the techniques that you guys have developed, I believe with your scratchy stuff and so on, then that there's this whole almost group think around, that's the way to do it because we've told.
00:35:53.141 --> 00:35:57.083
You know, we've said that's the way it should be done rather than someone said to us.
00:35:57.161 --> 00:36:00.364
So if someone says to us, you've got to do it that way.
00:36:00.364 --> 00:36:01.885
We can ignore that.
00:36:01.885 --> 00:36:07.128
But if we've talked to each other about that's the way to do it, then that's the way to do it.
00:36:07.128 --> 00:36:15.710
So, and then also the, the site manager or the safety officer can come back and say, hang on in the safety briefings, you guys said this.
00:36:16.711 --> 00:36:17.972
and I'm not seeing it.
00:36:17.972 --> 00:36:21.974
So were you just blowing smoke at that point or.
00:36:22.027 --> 00:36:29.289
will you really honestly believe that's the way you, you So that's just a tweak that I would make for those safety briefings.
00:36:29.742 --> 00:36:39.838
Yeah, I mean, I actually think safety briefings are not where I just don't think that's the right tool for the job.
00:36:40.257 --> 00:36:50.143
It's about dopamine, you know, and, and I believe because you need some payoff, you need an immediate payoff to do things.
00:36:50.143 --> 00:36:57.228
And there's a story of, of a guy I was at, he's in a manufacturing facility.
00:36:57.556 --> 00:37:04.521
And they were spraying this epoxy and it's a horrible stuff.
00:37:04.521 --> 00:37:06.742
And they weren't wearing their breathing equipment.
00:37:06.983 --> 00:37:08.786
And right.
00:37:08.786 --> 00:37:12.728
And so it was really hard to get them to comply to wear breathing apparatus.
00:37:12.728 --> 00:37:15.641
And you're like, mate, you're spraying epoxy.
00:37:15.641 --> 00:37:17.411
Like, just think about it.
00:37:17.536 --> 00:37:26.300
I don't think it was necessarily socioeconomic or IQ, because that's the easy go to.
00:37:26.304 --> 00:37:27.188
Yeah, yeah.
00:37:27.188 --> 00:37:36.987
I think and it could have been something to do with that, but I have a feeling that James, present James and future James.
00:37:37.168 --> 00:37:40.628
And somebody says to me, look after future James.
00:37:40.628 --> 00:37:42.447
And I go, yeah, yeah, whatever.
00:37:42.447 --> 00:37:44.867
The present James is like, no, it's all about present James.
00:37:44.867 --> 00:37:50.088
Present James finds it easier without the mask when he's spraying the epoxy pool.
00:37:50.088 --> 00:37:52.125
He doesn't worry about future James.
00:37:52.125 --> 00:37:56.565
There's an immediate payoff for present James if I take the mask off.
00:37:56.565 --> 00:37:59.405
Future James has issues, that's future James' problem.
00:37:59.465 --> 00:38:08.125
Whereas what we found with rewarding on the spot safety compliance is present James gets something out of it.
00:38:08.385 --> 00:38:14.545
Right, so then the supervisor comes over and goes, you're wearing your PPE, you're wearing your breathing apparatus.
00:38:14.545 --> 00:38:16.394
Well done, scan this, you're a champion.
00:38:16.394 --> 00:38:20.666
So firstly, I feel good because my managers just said good things to me.
00:38:20.666 --> 00:38:22.916
And then now I've got, I've won something.
00:38:22.916 --> 00:38:25.358
President James goes, payoff is good.
00:38:25.358 --> 00:38:42.614
You know, and so people think, well, maybe that's just a sugar high, but it's, it's, it's a weird thing that the more you do it, the more it becomes what's done, you know, and, then it's just, that's, that's habit, you know.
00:38:42.614 --> 00:38:46.688
it's I mean, that I can't remember the exact term, but it's discounted future benefits.
00:38:46.688 --> 00:38:48.199
The psychologists talk about this.
00:38:48.199 --> 00:39:00.507
If I offer you one pound now or a hundred pound in a year's time or, you know, dollars or whatever, a lot of people take the well, the ten dollars right now rather than a hundred in the future because it's immediate.
00:39:00.588 --> 00:39:04.849
Anything that we see as a benefit in the future is discounted in our minds.
00:39:05.650 --> 00:39:08.753
It's startling how much we discount stuff.
00:39:08.753 --> 00:39:09.514
Hmm.
00:39:09.556 --> 00:39:13.289
And anything we see as a problem in the future, we discount in the same way.
00:39:13.530 --> 00:39:21.215
that, you know, epoxy filled lungs in the future is not something that we think about now.
00:39:21.376 --> 00:39:27.952
And this is the same with diet, for example, you know, people eating junk food, processed food, all the rest of it.
00:39:27.952 --> 00:39:30.911
food gives you a dopamine hit right now.
00:39:31.331 --> 00:39:31.983
Yeah.
00:39:31.983 --> 00:39:46.572
you know, so, and yet it's, it's well known now, most, you know, there's so much in the news about ultra processed foods and all the rest of it just not doing us any favors that, you know, why, why do they, why are they, how do people even make money out of that?
00:39:46.592 --> 00:39:50.596
You know, why is it even on the shelf, people wouldn't buy it if they had any sense.
00:39:50.596 --> 00:39:51.856
And yet they do.
00:39:52.016 --> 00:39:56.800
So it's, it's the same exactly what you're talking about is that discounted view.
00:39:56.800 --> 00:40:02.795
So the only way you can fix that is to is to up the game in the present as you quite rightly point out.
00:40:02.795 --> 00:40:03.226
Yeah.
00:40:03.226 --> 00:40:11.635
To be a dopamine provider necessarily, you know, because it's like, you know, like the bell curve of health and wellness.
00:40:11.775 --> 00:40:26.315
there's a small percentage of people who don't need any external motivation that they're fully intrinsically motivated to be, but the fat part of the bell curve clearly has an issue and they need some help, you know?
00:40:26.315 --> 00:40:28.576
So, it's a really interesting one.
00:40:28.576 --> 00:40:30.505
How do you see that?
00:40:31.065 --> 00:40:32.746
related to what you've been doing.
00:40:32.746 --> 00:40:38.360
mean, so we're talking about, of course, what Scratchy does is big on the motivation piece.
00:40:39.722 --> 00:40:48.286
And we think some problems, they're hitting it with a learning and development hammer when it's really needs to be hit with a motivation hammer.
00:40:50.369 --> 00:40:54.054
Do you see overlap and how do you see the two working together?
00:40:54.054 --> 00:41:05.280
some, but also I see that people get confused in terms of skills or actions by there's two different phases to skills.
00:41:05.280 --> 00:41:07.702
There's the skills acquisition.
00:41:07.702 --> 00:41:18.166
need to learn about and acquire and practice a skill to the point where I now have it and at a sufficient level to do it, you know, without too much thought it's there.
00:41:18.166 --> 00:41:23.170
I may have to think about it, but by and large it's, now something I can do.
00:41:23.981 --> 00:41:26.813
but then there's maintenance of that skill over time.
00:41:26.813 --> 00:41:31.304
If it's never used or never reinforced, it will fade.
00:41:31.786 --> 00:41:34.646
and I think a lot of people get mixed up.
00:41:34.646 --> 00:41:40.009
They see that people not doing something and they go back to providing acquisition type.
00:41:40.369 --> 00:41:44.911
Processes for a skill that people actually already kind of have, but aren't using.
00:41:45.010 --> 00:41:52.251
Whereas really it's a maintenance problem at that point, maintaining it, using it regularly and so on.
00:41:52.251 --> 00:41:53.025
Hmm.
00:41:53.101 --> 00:41:57.023
And this is, you kind of touched on that with your safety briefing earlier.
00:41:57.023 --> 00:42:01.085
They are falling back to acquisition type stuff.
00:42:01.585 --> 00:42:04.967
Really, it should be maintenance type stuff, which is why I recommend it.
00:42:04.967 --> 00:42:12.250
Have that discussion internally where they already know it, but they talk to each other about it and you facilitate that discussion.
00:42:12.306 --> 00:42:14.286
And I guess to be honest with the outcome.
00:42:14.286 --> 00:42:26.226
So if the company is doing an induction to cover their legal behind, then they need to be honest about that in a sense or else workers will see through it.
00:42:26.226 --> 00:42:28.043
Yeah.
00:42:28.043 --> 00:42:28.942
Yeah.
00:42:28.942 --> 00:42:30.181
want you to die on this site.
00:42:30.181 --> 00:42:31.132
That's not good for us.
00:42:31.132 --> 00:42:33.565
It's not good for you and certainly not good for your kids.
00:42:33.565 --> 00:42:37.927
So let's let's talk about how we can keep you safe on the site.
00:42:38.949 --> 00:42:45.353
And just the fact that we're in this room for now, we'll tick a box that the regulatory bodies require us to take.
00:42:45.353 --> 00:42:47.514
But and that's fine.
00:42:47.856 --> 00:42:49.177
That's separate.
00:42:50.117 --> 00:42:50.847
Yeah.
00:42:50.847 --> 00:42:54.280
Yeah, that's separate to working with you guys to keep you safe.
00:42:54.280 --> 00:42:58.043
Because that's a joint collaborative effort between us and you.
00:42:59.045 --> 00:43:04.309
So if you're not doing safe stuff, then how do we figure that one out?
00:43:04.449 --> 00:43:13.936
There's a fascinating example I had with one of the big tire retailer outfits here in the UK, you you rock up, you get your tires and exhaust fixed and so on.
00:43:13.936 --> 00:43:25.045
And they were working with us many years ago now on onboarding new employees, tire fitters, or they had some fancy name for their tire fitters.
00:43:25.045 --> 00:43:28.454
can't remember, tire engineer, something, whatever it was.
00:43:29.277 --> 00:43:48.702
And what they did is they, and partly on the platform we've built, they actually had these guys do a little safety video of different things that should or should not be done around, you know, the lift, the car lifts, the various bits of equipment, and so on and so forth.
00:43:48.871 --> 00:43:52.454
And here's all the things you should see, here's all the things you should not see and so on.
00:43:52.454 --> 00:43:56.148
So it wasn't just a list of things not to do.
00:43:56.148 --> 00:44:00.811
Thankfully, there was quite a bit of stuff that people should do in there and how they should do things.
00:44:00.811 --> 00:44:02.773
So positive reinforcement.
00:44:02.773 --> 00:44:11.059
And then what they had is for each of these guys, while they were doing their induction, they were all loaned a small tablet, a seven inch tablet, just a cheap one.
00:44:11.121 --> 00:44:14.434
And Cause most of them didn't have a computer.
00:44:14.434 --> 00:44:19.117
Some of them didn't have a smartphone, you know, or if they did, they didn't want to use it for this.
00:44:19.117 --> 00:44:24.648
So they were given a small tablet and if they lasted six months with the company, they were given the tablet for free.
00:44:24.648 --> 00:44:26.059
They were just gifted it.
00:44:26.059 --> 00:44:28.940
If they left within six months, they had to give it back.
00:44:30.221 --> 00:44:43.016
and, so, and, and, one of the tasks that they were given was go around the depot and take photographs for the tablet of any things that you see as contravening what you've just seen in the safety video.
00:44:43.054 --> 00:44:43.992
Right.
00:44:44.034 --> 00:44:46.713
And so they almost went around as inspectors.
00:44:46.713 --> 00:44:49.114
It was kind of really, it was interesting.
00:44:49.114 --> 00:45:01.934
And what was fascinating is the, they noticed that some of the older employees that had been there a long time and perhaps hadn't been through this process were a bit scathing of the safety stuff.
00:45:01.934 --> 00:45:07.054
But of course, suddenly they were the ones in the gun for not putting that tool away in the proper place.
00:45:07.054 --> 00:45:11.873
You know, it was just left lying on floor or whatever for someone to trip over.
00:45:12.606 --> 00:45:19.030
And it was interesting that did change the safety culture within those various tire fitters.
00:45:20.210 --> 00:45:30.637
And, and, and of course, what, what happened is they couldn't just rail against the branch manager for pulling them up about leaving the tool on the floor.
00:45:31.518 --> 00:45:34.960
It was the safety video in this new starter.
00:45:35.440 --> 00:45:42.567
And they, and the older employees had been there, didn't really have an excuse for leaving the tool on the floor because they knew damn well that shouldn't be.
00:45:42.567 --> 00:45:43.429
Yep.
00:45:44.802 --> 00:45:54.730
And then they'd see some new starter at the other end of the room taking a snapshot of this tool on the floor and they think, shit.
00:45:54.969 --> 00:45:57.121
And so they had two options at that point.
00:45:57.121 --> 00:46:06.509
They could start doing it properly or they could go and threaten this new employee with dire consequences and my uncle's a baseball bat.
00:46:06.509 --> 00:46:10.608
But that, I mean, why would you want to do that to a new starter?
00:46:10.608 --> 00:46:11.552
Yeah, yeah.
00:46:11.552 --> 00:46:12.414
Yeah.
00:46:12.458 --> 00:46:18.199
they're not bad people, they just want to do their job.
00:46:19.221 --> 00:46:24.603
So it was a way of reminding them what good looks like without actually having to go and tap them on the shoulder.
00:46:24.603 --> 00:46:28.423
They just see someone taking this photograph thinking, ooh, you know.
00:46:31.518 --> 00:46:32.547
So.
00:46:32.547 --> 00:46:35.967
That's actually a clever way to do it.
00:46:35.967 --> 00:46:36.699
Yeah.
00:46:36.699 --> 00:46:47.166
So, so you can, there are various ways to enlist people to do things and help with that process, but from within the system, not imposed from outside.
00:46:47.166 --> 00:46:53.612
And so much of the safety training is imposed from outside and is focused on things they already know.
00:46:53.612 --> 00:46:57.826
It's, it's no longer a skills or knowledge acquisition process.
00:46:57.826 --> 00:46:59.677
It's now a maintenance process.
00:46:59.677 --> 00:47:01.938
So you have to work with them in that way.
00:47:01.938 --> 00:47:06.134
And if you do have someone who's really fresh into the construction industry, Mm.
00:47:06.134 --> 00:47:11.376
person you'd probably pull aside a little bit and say, okay, here's some extra videos for you to watch.
00:47:11.416 --> 00:47:14.998
That is some material you may not be aware of yet.
00:47:17.239 --> 00:47:27.605
And then also you can point out, excuse me, in the briefing, John or Sally over here and you on this kind of site, look after them.
00:47:27.905 --> 00:47:35.469
If they're doing something and you see them doing something that you know is not right, please tap them on the shoulder and point out the way to do it.
00:47:35.606 --> 00:47:36.456
You're enlisting.
00:47:36.456 --> 00:47:40.525
if they'd just taken photos of you doing the wrong thing, you wouldn't.
00:47:42.572 --> 00:47:43.574
Yeah.
00:47:44.818 --> 00:47:45.675
Yeah.
00:47:45.675 --> 00:47:52.650
here's your, you you, should have a buddy or a mentor on site, particularly construction sites where there's quite a bit of dangerous stuff going on.
00:47:52.650 --> 00:48:00.547
do vary in danger, obviously, depending on what's being done and, and, you know, so on and so forth.
00:48:00.547 --> 00:48:07.693
So, but yeah, it's just some thoughts and, but I think go back to that.
00:48:07.766 --> 00:48:12.027
analogy for the, you know, for training programs and things is just think of the four things.
00:48:12.027 --> 00:48:13.588
are you now behaviorally?
00:48:13.588 --> 00:48:15.949
Where do you want to get to behaviorally?
00:48:16.110 --> 00:48:18.550
How would you know you've got there?
00:48:18.550 --> 00:48:23.722
What's the set of steps to get there and kind of, how will you reinforce that?
00:48:23.722 --> 00:48:28.914
How will you, you know, keep people and hold them accountable for doing what needs to be done?
00:48:30.275 --> 00:48:32.135
But that's more the training side of it.
00:48:32.135 --> 00:48:34.601
And then the second is maintenance side of it.
00:48:34.601 --> 00:48:38.235
How do you help them maintain those behaviors once they're established?
00:48:40.802 --> 00:48:44.847
That's where you guys come in with the scratchy stuff is from what I understand of how that works.
00:48:44.847 --> 00:48:46.275
I think it's a brilliant idea.
00:48:46.275 --> 00:48:47.320
Yeah, exactly.
00:48:47.320 --> 00:48:47.963
Exactly.
00:48:47.963 --> 00:48:50.340
It's the motivation piece that's been long forgotten.
00:48:50.340 --> 00:48:52.014
Yeah.
00:48:52.219 --> 00:48:52.840
Yeah.
00:48:52.840 --> 00:48:54.150
So that that's maintenance.
00:48:54.150 --> 00:49:11.219
And if you separate that from acquisition in terms of skills, then that starts to explain a bit better, perhaps, where it works and where it won't as well, by the way, because your scratchy system will work great if people know what to do, but it won't do a damn thing if they don't know what to do.
00:49:11.458 --> 00:49:16.481
it motivates them to want to know what to do.
00:49:18.764 --> 00:49:27.952
So, you know, there's a classic story of the team that wasn't working and they're on one job and they come to another job and they're told about this system where you get rewarded.
00:49:27.994 --> 00:49:33.539
And they say, whatever this game is, I'm in like, you know, and I'll do whatever it is.
00:49:33.539 --> 00:49:39.375
And it gives them the autonomy, know, Deki and Ryan talk about autonomy, competence and relatedness.
00:49:39.396 --> 00:49:45.077
And it gives, says to them, you don't have to like, but if you want to win, you know, you need to do it.
00:49:45.077 --> 00:49:46.782
So it's your choice, you know.
00:49:47.884 --> 00:49:49.351
So what other questions do you have?
00:49:49.351 --> 00:49:50.753
don't know what we're doing for time here.
00:49:50.753 --> 00:49:52.648
It's been a nice chat.
00:49:52.760 --> 00:49:53.541
50 minutes.
00:49:53.541 --> 00:49:57.123
It's gone on a bit longer than I thought, but it's been a really interesting discussion.
00:49:57.123 --> 00:49:58.893
So I think we can close it up now.
00:49:58.893 --> 00:50:00.463
Yeah.
00:50:00.463 --> 00:50:04.115
So Paul, I really appreciate having this discussion.
00:50:04.115 --> 00:50:16.110
was just in summary to sort of deconstruct what learning is starting at the end, getting a really firm view of where this person is currently.
00:50:16.110 --> 00:50:19.391
And then, you know, the middle piece.
00:50:19.405 --> 00:50:20.771
of what it takes to get there.
00:50:20.771 --> 00:50:22.467
How am I going?
00:50:22.467 --> 00:50:24.210
The satin-avan allergy.
00:50:24.556 --> 00:50:25.331
Yeah.
00:50:25.331 --> 00:50:30.514
get clear on the end point, get clear on the start point, and then you've got a gap between them.
00:50:30.934 --> 00:50:34.657
And that gap will be a behavioral gap pretty much all the time.
00:50:35.077 --> 00:50:41.961
And then how do we deliver that behavior is the key question, not how do we deliver this curriculum, but how do we deliver this behavior?
00:50:41.983 --> 00:50:45.344
And that will change the way you think about designing the program.
00:50:45.344 --> 00:50:53.179
You may end up using a lot of the same content you would have used otherwise, but you'll probably deliver it in different ways and in different patterns or different...
00:50:53.494 --> 00:50:54.994
drop points and so on.
00:50:54.994 --> 00:50:56.646
So how do we deliver this behavior?
00:50:56.646 --> 00:51:03.902
And how long might we expect it to take to deliver that behavior so that it's better and sustainable over time?
00:51:04.000 --> 00:51:05.119
Yep.
00:51:05.360 --> 00:51:06.280
Great, Paul.
00:51:06.280 --> 00:51:09.860
Well, thank you for coming on and it's really good to have met you.
00:51:09.860 --> 00:51:12.382
So, you know, I hope to keep up the discussion.
00:51:12.382 --> 00:51:18.192
if anybody wants to talk further about any of that stuff, I'm happy to always have love having a chat about learning development.
00:51:18.246 --> 00:51:22.751
People Alchemy, Paul Matthews, CEO, UK based.
00:51:23.092 --> 00:51:25.110
So thank you very much.
00:51:25.110 --> 00:51:26.302
along to any of the websites.
00:51:26.302 --> 00:51:30.728
You'll find us online and we'd be delighted to have a chat.
00:51:30.784 --> 00:51:31.525
Great.
00:51:31.525 --> 00:51:32.085
Okay.
00:51:32.085 --> 00:51:32.757
Thank you, Paul.
00:51:32.757 --> 00:51:33.907
Have a good day.
00:51:34.449 --> 00:51:35.190
Okay.
00:51:35.190 --> 00:51:35.621
See you.
00:51:35.621 --> 00:51:36.472
Bye.
00:51:39.159 --> 00:51:40.454
Okay, just