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Ian Lindsey of Lindsay and Associates has played an active role in the local community since 1979.
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He has been with Remax, Vancouver Island's most advanced real estate business network, since 1996.
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Marketing and selling residential, rural strata, recreational investment, and project development real estate.
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You'll find true real estate professionals at ianlinsey.ca.
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You're listening to Nonpartisan Hacks, the podcast where we talk about good government from the local level on up.
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I'm Joel Grenz, a City of Parksville Counselor.
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And I'm Sean Wood, also a Parksville Counselor and 2026 mayoral candidate.
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We're in Victoria at the AVICC Convention, the Association of Vancouver Island and Coastal Communities, which brings together elected officials from across Vancouver Island and the coast every year.
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And this is the very last AVICC before all the people here go back to the polls.
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So unsurprisingly, everyone's asking each other whether they're gonna run again, and the answers aren't always what you'd expect.
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It's not I'm tired of the budget process, it's something else.
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And our guest today has made it her mission to name that something else and do something about it.
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Marianne Mead Ward is the mayor of Burlington, Ontario, with 16 years in elected office.
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She's also the co-founder of Elect Respect, a movement that started as a small conversation among a group of women in Halton region, and has since grown into a national campaign with hundreds of elected officials and more than 50 municipalities signed on.
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She was recently named Municipal World's Mayor of the Year for that work, which is the only direct elected uh leader in Canada, our mayors.
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Uh and she's here at AVICC to carry the message west.
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So, Mary Mayor Meade Ward, welcome to Nonpartisan Hacks.
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Welcome.
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Thank you so much for having me.
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It's making time for us.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, so you're here at AVICC, uh, which is a whole bunch of elected representatives from across uh Vancouver Island and the coastal communities.
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Why are you here?
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All the way from Ontario.
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Yeah, I was invited by uh mayor of Courtney, BC, Bob Wells.
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He heard about the Elect Respect campaign a couple of months ago, reached out, brought it to his council, and really uh saw the value of it and wanted to give it more attention.
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So invited me to come out here.
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And uh AVICC was was wonderful, giving me a booth out front uh to spread the word, and people have been coming by my table and just talking about their experiences, and it is uh it's wonderful to have a community of support, but the downside of that is the fact that this uh elect respect is needed, that everyone has a story of some terrible behavior on their council or with public, and so it's it's really caught on, and uh it's that it's great to see, uh, but it's it's unfortunate that it has to exist at all.
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Yeah, we we've got our pins on.
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Anyone who's watching will see the pins.
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They're very nice.
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Actually, I've uh I was wearing it yesterday, and multiple people asked me what the pin was about.
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Yeah, and uh they also complimented the design of the pin.
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So, you know, there you go.
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That was somebody in my office.
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I gotta give a shout out to Roman Drobot.
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He designed it.
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It's a it it's a shield and it's got like a check mark for a ballot box, there's a heart in there, and it's uh it's really thoughtful in terms of us coming together and protecting each other and really supporting people that are doing this work because if we can't make democracy safe for people, then people won't run, people will leave, uh, even the public won't participate in dialogue if they think that the you know the focus is gonna come on them and they're gonna get treated with this vitriol.
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And we've seen that happen, and people just retreat then from the public space and we lose those voices.
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Yeah, they protect themselves uh you know from that kind of damaging uh behavior.
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Uh for the listeners, uh are there any situations that kind of jump out uh at you um that kind of stand out as examples of uh of of behavior or conduct that uh would turn people away from running for elected office?
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Are there any kind of examples that pop up for you?
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Well, it's gone as as far as death threats in my own case.
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So uh and this is where social media has really become the fuel to the fire of spreading misinformation, abuse, toxicity.
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And it was Instagram, which we used to think of as the place for pity p pretty pictures, you know, of what you were doing or eating or travels or whatever.
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To get away from the politics.
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Yeah.
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Well, no no longer, unfortunately.
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So uh somebody had been reaching out to my office with a blocked phone number, uh disguised email, uh sending threats, and then they finally used their Instagram account to send a death threat.
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Uh there was a development application in Burlington that they didn't like in their neighborhood, and uh there was a public meeting coming up, and they said, if you come to that uh public meeting, I'm gonna set you on fire.
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And uh the Instagram account was traceable.
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So, of course, we sent all of this to the police.
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They hadn't been able to trace it until then, but through Instagram they were able to find out and identify this individual.
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But they told me not to go to that meeting.
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Wow.
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They said we were not sure if it's you know, if we can keep you safe, essentially.
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And that's my job as the mayor.
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To be at public meetings.
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To be at public meetings, hear from community, you know, uh that's that is part of the job.
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And so it was shocking.
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But it wasn't the first time uh that I'd received a death threat.
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Uh it and it wasn't the last time I was told not to go to a public meeting.
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That happened very recently when uh an individual was threatening to come to City Hall and uh do harm to people.
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We had a hold and secure at our city hall.
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There was a public meeting that night.
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I had an event at City Hall in the lobby that that had to be canceled.
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Uh, and then I was told to not to go to that public uh another public meeting that night uh because the individual was still at large.
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So it is uh seriously affecting my ability to do my job, but it's also terrifying, you know, and and not just for you, for your family.
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My family sees us, you know, I'll never forget calling home and saying, I can't leave my office right now.
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And and then it was on the news, and I called them to let them know you're you're gonna be hearing about this or seeing this imminently.
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There's a hold insecure, I'm safe.
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Uh we're in, you know, we're in our office, but had to turn out the lights, close the blinds, do all the safety protocols for a hold and secure.
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So it uh it it makes people think twice, and then then people who might think about running see what you're being subjected to.
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So I don't need that.
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Right.
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So it it is uh it is also all of that bullying, misinformation, that toxicity, up to and including threats to your personal safety.
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And you know, my message is people shouldn't have to choose between uh service, public service, and their personal safety.
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For anyone listening, though, the sirens that you're hearing in the background are not sound effects that we added to the podcast.
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Those just happen to be going out of the background.
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Yeah, it makes it unworkable.
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And security detail might be affordable for at the provincial or federal levels, but at a municipal level often, you know, some sort of security detail that follows you around isn't isn't in the budget.
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Security gets expensive.
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It makes the job next to unworkable, probably.
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Yeah, in our case, we I mean we have city hall security that that are in the building, but there was a time where they had to staff up uh right around this period where they sent security to my public meetings.
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And it was, I wasn't really aware of the impact it was having on public until um I was at a public meeting and people were starting to approach me, and then they like stopped, and I thought, well, you know, why are you stopping?
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And then I turned and I saw that the this security guard was standing like right there, this giant guy.
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And I'm like, could you just stand a little bit away?
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Like nobody would come and talk to me because they were worried, and and it was so visible.
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And I thought, this is just not okay, that I need this in the first place.
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The fact that people are now feeling intimidated, and it's kind of that I irony, you know, that the security is there to make you feel more safe, and yet it made people feel more nervous and feel like they couldn't come and talk to their own mayor at a public meeting.
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Yeah, so a chill on the entire democratic process, really, there on multiple fronts.
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Uh so but you then turned this challenge and this instead of running in fear and not getting doing something about it, you've clearly done something about it.
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Maybe speak to how you kind of took that and and turned it into power.
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Well, this was uh this was started by I call it my coffee clutch uh of women, my support group, uh elected women in our region, Halton region, which is four municipalities, and we got talking one day about our experience being a woman in elected office.
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And every single person, from trustee to cabinet minister, we invite everybody to the table, and they all had a story of harassment, of abuse.
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One of our MPs left because she was just done with it.
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And so we sit we sat around and we thought, this is not okay.
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What can we do about this?
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And the one thing you can always do is lead by example.
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So we said, okay, we're gonna we're gonna create this pledge, we're gonna commit ourselves to being respectful of public, respectful of each other, because sometimes this is elected official against another elected official.
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And then we're gonna in return ask the public and our colleagues to treat us with respect.
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We're gonna going to ask for appropriate resources to be directed here, uh, so appropriate enforcement authorities to take this seriously and not just see it as, well, that's politics, that's what people do, you know, to get involved, and then um call it out when we see it.
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So that was the essence of the pledge.
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We took the pledge, we launched it, and then it just took off.
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And I think it took off because people two two things.
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Everyone had a story, unfortunately, and people felt, well, this is something I can do.
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Lead by example is something I can do.
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I don't have to change other people's behavior right now.
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I can change myself.
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Well, I love that because I think the problem has actually kind of been started by politicians in a lot of ways by getting getting and not protecting the kind of vocation or the profession of being a politician and denigrating the entire exercise of being a politician, which at the end of the day is just people in your community going to step up and saying, I'm gonna be your representative in government and help make decisions on our behalf.
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Uh, but then in order to get that seat, they're willing, we shouldn't be willing as politicians to do whatever it takes to win.
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We should do what is uh respectful.
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We can argue about policy, we can argue about the best way forward, but doing these sorts of threatening and personal attacks, it has started, I think, in a lot of ways with politicians, but we should I like how you're like we're starting to end it with politicians as well, doing a pledge to say we're not doing this anymore.
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Well, and people ask, you know, how did we get here, right, as a country, and it's not just in Canada, obviously, and it's it's clearly not just a Burlington, Ontario problem.
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I'm out here in BC hearing exactly the same type of stories.
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And so, you know, the the the fact of the matter is that people with the biggest megaphones, which tend to be elected leaders uh at the highest levels, have engaged in behavior over the years that that provides permission to do bullying, to to you know, describe your opponent in derogatory terms or nicknames, spread misinformation, attack ads, like all of that, which don't which focus on people, not policy.
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So if if people are seeing that permission granted and that behavior at the highest levels, then they feel that they can do that.
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And so that's why I think that's why it's become so powerful when elected officials say, I'm not doing it that way.
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This is about policy, this is about good dialogue, this is about democracy and and debating the issues in an appropriate way.
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And that's what I'm committing to.
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And the public has really responded well to that, and we're we're trying to create a bigger megaphone to counteract the misinformation and that abuse.
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Yeah, and change the culture amongst ourselves as politicians.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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And when we take it out on the people instead of uh, you know, discussing the policy, it's really undermining our own argument because uh, hey, I don't have any actually good arguments against your policy, so what I'm gonna do is you know make fun of you as a person or take it out on you as a person.
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So really it doesn't help your argument, it weakens it, it shows how weak it is.
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So um it's not a great tactic.
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No, uh calling somebody an idiot doesn't persuade them.
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No, you know, really gonna mean out.
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Okay.
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This is why your policy is bad.
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No, it it doesn't persuade, and I encourage people uh I say have res have more respect for your own position on something to mount a credible argument and not get into personal attacks.
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And that I can see when I say that to people, sometimes they kind of think, oh, yeah, I you know, maybe I should go back to the drawing board and think about why I support this position and and then put that case forward to see if I can persuade anybody.
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Yeah.
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Joel and I are very fortunate because we I think we both kind of ran on that uh this term, and our our term has been relatively quite good.
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Um I think Pickering might come uh to mind because we we've hung out with one of those counselors at uh in Ottawa.
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Um not not maybe the counselor that you're thinking of, but uh you know we've seen some pretty serious issues in Canada and and different municipalities, and you probably know all of those stories.
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Um and and I think it you're right to let's uh uh handle it at the political level because uh number one, that's what we can control, but we do see ongoing issues at those tables that could be a lot better, and you're setting the example.
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These are leadership, absolutely lead with respect and uh lead by example.
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Well, I was actually just out in Pickering.
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We had uh the Ontario Big City Mayor's Caucus annual general meeting was there, and we're the 29 largest municipalities in Ontario, and uh so we got talking about the situation that the mayor, who was our host, was facing in Pickering.
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And they have had eight, uh about 22 complaints, eight findings against one of their counselors and for spreading misinformation, abusive, and inappropriate treatment.
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Uh and they the tool they have is to dock your pay.
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And that the mayor was telling me that this individual has not been paid for about two years and yet continues at all.
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Yeah.
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Right, because they the you know the findings keep lying up and it kept getting docked, and it just also shows just how limited, but they still have they still have virtual council meetings because it's been become so disruptive.
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And so it really then, as uh we were saying earlier, it it affects your ability to do your job, it creates a really toxic environment for staff and council, and there's really limited tools at the municipal level to deal with somebody who is behaving in this way, and they've used every tool that they have, but the behavior hasn't stopped, it's it's continued.
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The the community, uh, you know, she has a community of support behind her, and uh, you know, it's just become really, really unfortunate for the people just trying to do good work in their community.
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Yeah.
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We have talked about code of conduct at uh city of Parksville in our regional district, etc.
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And you know, one caution that always comes up is it could be weaponized, you know, because we are in politics, and so there is say say a slate or a group at uh at a table that can outnumber another group and then you can file things, and then maybe code of conduct could be you know weaponized, and so it's too bad that you need the tools, but at the same time you don't want them to be weaponized on a political level.
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Uh obviously they're using all the tools that they can in Pickering, but doesn't seem to be, you know, helping sort of.
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It's maybe it's putting gasoline on the fire, who knows?
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But they're using the tools that they have.
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Um and I don't know if they're seeing any results, but you know, yeah.
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Well they certainly other people are are like us, you know, we're talking about it.
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We're talking about the need for appropriate tools.
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They've taken the steps that they can, and it, you know, what we're discussing in Ontario now, uh, the province is looking at legislation that's been requested where an independent judge could look at uh you know, would have to reach a high bar of very egregious behavior, but could remove somebody from office as the ultimate penalty.
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Because in in a couple of the worst of the worst examples, the call, you know, the rest of counsel can't it it grinds your business to a halt in some cases.
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It creates a very toxic environment.
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And, you know, if that was happening in a pro vet a professional office, non-political, the person would be dealt with or fired.
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And and so that's become really controversial.
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You know, should you be able to remove somebody or should the voters be able to only remove, you know, some provinces have recall legislation.
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Uh, we haven't gone there in Ontario.
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But but the fact of the matter is the tools are very limited to try to correct the behavior.
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And even when you use them, uh it often doesn't change and it can be weaponized and it can make things worse.
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So people will not file because the political, you know, fallout of that, it, you know, especially if there's a finding that, you know, this wasn't great, but it doesn't reach the threshold, then it just embols.
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Now you've got the whole rest of the term to fallout from that.
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Exactly, exactly.
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And there are staff and and people, you know, in my own case where you know people have come to me and said, you know, I've been treated this way, uh, what can you do about it?
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And I've encouraged them to file a complaint, and they don't want to do that because they recognize there's a political price to pay as well.
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There's so there are different tools that we've been mentioning here.
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Uh some of those are kind of more reactive tools, like after the fact is trying to deal with it.
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Um this program is a proactive one.
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Uh maybe you get into some of the nuts and bolts of how you are trying to change the kind of culture and conversation.
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You mentioned the pledge.
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Maybe you get a little bit into sort of like what are the nuts and bolts, what are you actually asking of elected representatives in the wider community to do as part of this campaign?
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Well, it does start with a commitment.
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If we don't commit ourselves to respectful democracy, all the tools in the world aren't going to force us to do that because people will just thumb their nose at it.
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So how do we people do the commitment part?
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So they can go online, electrespect.ca.
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There's you can just fill out your name and uh then you've, you know, you'll be listed along with all the other people.
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We're encouraging people to ask, you know, you elections are coming up in Ontario and here in BC.
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Ask the people running have you taken the pledge?
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Have you committed to respectful democracy?
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And hold your elected officials to account.
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Uh councils can bring it to their tables.
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So there is a sample resolution online at uh uh electrespect.ca and over 60 municipalities across the country have brought that forward.
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And then you gotta live by it.
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So it's not enough to just say, I believe this, but if people haven't made the commitment, you have there's not there's a limited way to hold them to account, right?
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And so uh once they've made the commitment, then you have a stronger argument to say, hey, you said that you know, you pledged to this, your council said you were gonna treat each other with respect and now live up to that.
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Yeah.
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So sign the pledge, and that's something that every anybody can do.
00:19:27.680 --> 00:19:35.920
Anyone can do when they're seeking office, have been elected to office, can go online, sign the pledge, and then they'll show up on the website as having signed the pledge.
00:19:36.000 --> 00:19:36.160
Yep.
00:19:36.400 --> 00:19:43.519
And then they can point to that or link to that from their campaign website and or whatever, and put them themselves there.
00:19:43.680 --> 00:19:52.079
Uh and then in terms of the public, uh, getting extra awareness to the public is also part of this, then I assume, to try to get the public aware of the pledge through that sort of network.
00:19:52.480 --> 00:19:54.319
Yes, and the public can sign it as well.
00:19:54.480 --> 00:20:06.559
We ask them to, because we want the public to treat elected officials with respect too, because it becomes this vicious cycle if if we're behaving badly and then the public treats us badly and then we treat them badly, and then it's like this vicious circle.
00:20:06.720 --> 00:20:13.599
So we need everybody to commit to this, and there's actually more public than elected officials who've signed on, and they're they've had it, right?
00:20:13.680 --> 00:20:17.200
They just want people to govern with their best interest in mind.
00:20:17.359 --> 00:20:22.160
Nobody likes to see, you know, the the bun fights uh or worse on council.
00:20:22.319 --> 00:20:24.960
They they want good people to continue to run.
00:20:25.039 --> 00:20:36.000
So in our own case, when our member of parliament said, I'm stepping away, the I don't need the abuse, the threats, the the death threats, the all of that, uh, people were really sad.
00:20:36.319 --> 00:20:46.400
You know, we lost a good voice and good representative, including people that may not have voted for that person, but they they recognize that that's not we don't want people leaving for that reason.
00:20:46.720 --> 00:20:47.119
Oh, yeah.
00:20:47.440 --> 00:21:00.240
I mean that you get maybe some of the best people that you would want to be in that role, and then the people who are willing to do all that sort of stuff and get into the muck are the ones that are gonna stick around still, and the community is only gonna suffer if that's what we're doing here at the council table.
00:21:00.720 --> 00:21:03.119
Doesn't have to be part of the job, doesn't have to be part of the game.
00:21:03.440 --> 00:21:06.079
Uh respectful discussion is how you get to good decisions.
00:21:06.160 --> 00:21:07.920
You're not all always all gonna agree.
00:21:08.079 --> 00:21:08.880
That's actually great.
00:21:09.039 --> 00:21:12.480
If I you know, if we all agreed on something, there's no point in having all of us at the table.
00:21:12.559 --> 00:21:16.240
So disagreement is actually a way to you know get to good decisions.
00:21:16.480 --> 00:21:19.920
You're gonna bring an opinion that I haven't thought of, a perspective.
00:21:20.079 --> 00:21:23.200
Um, let's talk it out, we'll have a vote, and you move on.
00:21:23.359 --> 00:21:26.160
You don't take things personally, you don't make things personal for the other person.
00:21:26.240 --> 00:21:26.400
Yeah.
00:21:26.640 --> 00:21:27.759
They get to good decisions.
00:21:28.319 --> 00:21:28.559
Yeah.
00:21:28.960 --> 00:21:29.680
Yeah, exactly.
00:21:29.839 --> 00:21:36.720
And and people won't feel comfortable airing a different perspective and if if they see this kind of behavior.
00:21:36.799 --> 00:21:42.960
And and it's worse for people that are already underrepresented in elected office, they get it worse.
00:21:43.119 --> 00:21:46.319
Uh women are still underrepresented municipally.
00:21:46.480 --> 00:21:51.599
Only about uh 20% of mayors across this country are women.
00:21:52.000 --> 00:22:03.359
And um, you know, we every everyone, men and women, can be uh subjected to this, but women get a particular Brand of uh harassment and abuse.
00:22:03.440 --> 00:22:04.480
It's very personal.
00:22:04.720 --> 00:22:17.920
Women get threatened with rape, women get, you know, your family members are put online, and you know, so that that bec it becomes even worse in terms of what they're subjected to.
00:22:18.000 --> 00:22:31.920
And then, you know, people of color get a particular kind of abuse around, you know, go back where you came from, or um, you know, just just really vile, very personal identity-based um, you know, commentary.
00:22:32.079 --> 00:22:44.160
And uh, and to SLGBTQ, uh, indigenous people, like all of the folks that we want their voices at the table, deserve to be at the table, represent a really important perspective.
00:22:44.319 --> 00:22:50.400
Uh, it's even harder for them because they get even more abuse and very personal.
00:22:50.480 --> 00:22:58.400
It's a very particular type of personal attack that people are subjected to, which is um it's it's just horrifying.
00:22:58.960 --> 00:23:06.400
We've we've uh you spoke to anonymity and the kind of the internet as being uh playing a role, and Joel and I have talked about it on the podcast before.
00:23:06.559 --> 00:23:13.680
Like it's very easy to you know be on the internet and typing stuff and you're not chatting with the person over a coffee.
00:23:13.839 --> 00:23:14.000
Yeah.
00:23:14.319 --> 00:23:28.720
Um I've found that uh you know, someone might be a certain way on email or on social media, and then if I invite them out to a coffee and chat with them, well, funny enough, when they're leaving the coffee, they're like, Oh, you know, Sean, listen to me, and he had some really good points and and it kind of calms it down.
00:23:28.960 --> 00:23:43.599
But but but people are often, I don't know, they can't find the courage to actually chat with the human being who has been elected um and uh and kind of hash it out and just chat respectfully in person instead of hiding on a keyboard.
00:23:43.759 --> 00:23:51.359
And I think with the internet that really took it to kind of a whole new level of anonymity where you're like, well, who is this person that's sending me death threats?
00:23:51.440 --> 00:23:51.759
Who is it?
00:23:51.920 --> 00:23:56.079
Oh, well, we posted on Instagram, so now we can track it down, and then you might be able to find a name.
00:23:56.240 --> 00:24:03.920
But when you're nameless, well, you know, that's a really easy way to, you know, start throwing out throwing out stuff, insults and whatever else.
00:24:04.319 --> 00:24:08.880
Well, and it got, you know, I've been in office 16 years, so pre and post COVID.
00:24:09.279 --> 00:24:15.599
And it was really during COVID that that obviously that anonymity went through the ceiling.
00:24:15.759 --> 00:24:18.880
And people's, you know, people were anxious, they were concerned.
00:24:19.039 --> 00:24:24.160
It, you know, took a toll on everyone's mental health because the situation was so difficult.
00:24:24.400 --> 00:24:30.400
Um, and and that's when it where it really started, where I saw I got my first death threat during COVID.
00:24:30.480 --> 00:24:39.200
Uh, but that keyboard warrior, that anonymity that just uh really uh has never really returned to what it was pre-COVID.
00:24:39.440 --> 00:24:41.519
And it does allow people that platform.
00:24:41.680 --> 00:24:48.720
And now with bots with uh fake accounts, you know, uh I'm seeing it now uh much more.
00:24:48.799 --> 00:24:58.799
I'm seeing it on Facebook as well, which you think that's the one platform it's hard to be anonymous, but people just take a fake picture, they have a fake name.
00:24:59.359 --> 00:25:04.799
I've I've now learned, like people have told me that's a fake account, and they've showed me the signs to see.
00:25:05.440 --> 00:25:12.480
But um, you know, and it can be, it can, it it amazes me the issues that will get people worked up.
00:25:12.640 --> 00:25:15.680
Uh we were talking about whether we would have speed cameras.
00:25:15.759 --> 00:25:18.240
Um the province took away our right to do that.
00:25:18.400 --> 00:25:23.119
I supported having uh speed cameras that would send a ticket, just like a red light camera.
00:25:23.759 --> 00:25:29.279
Um I was getting anonymous threats from places like Texas.
00:25:29.759 --> 00:25:30.160
Wow.
00:25:30.400 --> 00:25:30.720
Okay.
00:25:31.519 --> 00:25:40.319
Like all over the country, people were weighing in on speed cameras as being an uh, you know, an assault on on freedom, I suppose.
00:25:40.480 --> 00:25:45.119
And I said, no, it's just uh behave yourself and you don't have to worry about it.
00:25:45.279 --> 00:25:46.000
Slow down.
00:25:47.119 --> 00:25:48.799
Easiest ticket in the world to dodge.
00:25:48.880 --> 00:25:50.000
So stop speeding.
00:25:50.400 --> 00:25:50.880
Slow down.
00:25:51.200 --> 00:25:53.920
Um and then uh you have them in lots of places.
00:25:54.160 --> 00:26:02.799
Yeah, well, we were about to install and lots of communities had them, and then the province said no, it they and it was it, you know, I still think it was the wrong decision.
00:26:02.880 --> 00:26:07.599
But what I wasn't prepared for is when I posted about Burlington getting mail from across the country.
00:26:08.079 --> 00:26:09.200
Yeah, that's an international issue.
00:26:09.599 --> 00:26:10.000
North America.
00:26:10.400 --> 00:26:14.559
Yeah, you're gonna be getting some feedback from people that don't live anywhere near the jurisdiction.
00:26:14.880 --> 00:26:15.200
Exactly.
00:26:15.440 --> 00:26:17.119
That's actually an internet wrinkle.
00:26:17.440 --> 00:26:24.559
Yeah, and the other one that was really telling, and it goes back to what uh I was talking about with marginalized people getting getting worse.
00:26:24.799 --> 00:26:26.400
I posted about Vaisaki.
00:26:27.200 --> 00:26:32.319
And you know, initially it was people in my community saying, Thank you for recognizing this.
00:26:32.480 --> 00:26:38.640
It was like the simplest, you know, who for those celebrating, uh, we honor that and you know, have a great day.
00:26:38.799 --> 00:26:43.680
And uh again, around all of a sudden I'm like getting pinged like crazy.
00:26:43.920 --> 00:26:49.599
And uh it was people that were it it just went right off the deep end.
00:26:49.680 --> 00:26:50.480
We had to turn off comments.
00:26:50.880 --> 00:26:54.720
Well, again, to your point, like probably bots, probably not actually real people.
00:26:54.880 --> 00:26:55.119
Yep.
00:26:55.359 --> 00:27:02.559
Uh we had a controversy years ago in Parksville where a mayor was writing op-eds under a fake name into the newspaper.
00:27:02.720 --> 00:27:05.039
And today that's like, oh, that's that's cute.
00:27:05.200 --> 00:27:06.559
That's adorable.
00:27:06.799 --> 00:27:07.119
Yeah.
00:27:08.079 --> 00:27:12.079
It's like most of the editor are in the comment section.
00:27:12.240 --> 00:27:20.480
So many of those are exactly they're just Astroturf or uh fake people or yeah, alternative egos, alternative egos, or yeah.
00:27:21.119 --> 00:27:25.599
Our our city had to turn off the comments just permanently on the city, say, Facebook account or something.
00:27:25.839 --> 00:27:30.160
It's because you you if you're gonna manage if you're gonna have them turned on, you'll have to manage them.
00:27:30.400 --> 00:27:31.759
So it's just easier to turn them off.
00:27:31.839 --> 00:27:33.200
And so that's what the city has done.
00:27:33.599 --> 00:27:36.640
We have people on social media and manage our comments, et cetera.
00:27:36.720 --> 00:27:40.880
But well, it becomes a platform for spreading hate, misinformation.
00:27:41.119 --> 00:27:48.799
You know, we learned that again during COVID, where people would start posting on my feeds a lot of misinformation, disinformation.
00:27:48.960 --> 00:28:03.119
And so we had to, we had to constantly monitor it, and eventually we turned off comments because it just it wasn't, you know, the purpose for us to post was to spread good information and not be a platformer be hijacked for misinformation.
00:28:03.279 --> 00:28:38.960
And you know, that's the biggest issue that I see now with social media is that there's so much misinformation spread that with the demise, uh certainly in our area, of print media and people increasingly looking online to get their source of information and preferring platforms like Facebook or Instagram, you know, talking amongst their friends to get their information, misinformation can spread in a nanosecond, and and so can the kinds of um you know things that are said about elected officials, things that damage your reputation, that can spread like wildfire as well.
00:28:39.039 --> 00:28:42.000
And there's it's very almost impossible to combat it.
00:28:42.640 --> 00:28:51.759
Well, and if a malicious character is out there in the world who who discovered maybe during COVID are really it was very clear during COVID that you can spread misinformation.
00:28:51.839 --> 00:28:58.400
And if your only goal is to create dissension in democracies, it's a pretty handy tool to do that.
00:28:58.559 --> 00:29:02.960
And uh and now we've just seen that more and more on every level of government.
00:29:03.200 --> 00:29:09.519
So I think what you're doing here is really great because it it's saying, okay, for politicians, we are not participating in that.
00:29:09.920 --> 00:29:21.279
And we should all recognize that what's happening in the comment section may not actually be a reflection of what the community is really thinking because the people that are talking in those comment sections may not actually be in the community.
00:29:21.359 --> 00:29:23.039
They may be Texas bots.
00:29:23.279 --> 00:29:28.160
Um we're here with a group of local government elected officials thinking about running again.
00:29:28.319 --> 00:29:33.440
Uh maybe just to wrap things up, do you want to give kind of like your 30-second pitch that you've been giving to folks here in the room?
00:29:33.599 --> 00:29:37.359
And uh that can kind of give us our nutshell of what you're up to here.
00:29:37.839 --> 00:29:43.440
Well, uh public service is a huge honor, and uh no one should have to risk their personal safety.
00:29:43.599 --> 00:29:51.359
So I want to thank everyone for actually signing the pledge, stepping up, bringing it to their councils, because the change starts with us, right?
00:29:51.440 --> 00:30:01.759
We have to be the change we want to see, and the opportunity to not only hear the stories and why this is necessary, but to recognize that people are saying we need to do better is inspiring itself.
00:30:02.160 --> 00:30:02.319
Yeah.
00:30:02.480 --> 00:30:03.599
I think I've taken the pledge.
00:30:03.680 --> 00:30:06.319
I think I've uh I think I've signed it on the website.
00:30:06.640 --> 00:30:07.119
Okay, great.
00:30:07.359 --> 00:30:07.759
It's great.
00:30:07.920 --> 00:30:08.400
Yeah.
00:30:08.640 --> 00:30:10.079
Did oh, oh, you're looking at me.
00:30:10.240 --> 00:30:10.880
I haven't done it yet.
00:30:10.960 --> 00:30:11.279
I will do it.
00:30:11.519 --> 00:30:11.759
Do it.
00:30:12.160 --> 00:30:13.680
Do it! Electrospect.ca.
00:30:14.079 --> 00:30:14.640
I have the button.
00:30:14.799 --> 00:30:18.079
I only did it because I chatted with Bob uh, I don't know, a month ago or something.
00:30:19.119 --> 00:30:20.240
Yeah, no, I'll definitely do it.
00:30:20.319 --> 00:30:24.000
And and uh I'll put this up on my campaign website as well.
00:30:24.160 --> 00:30:26.160
I think it's a great initiative you're doing.
00:30:26.240 --> 00:30:29.920
Uh as soon as I saw the the booth there, I'm like, oh yeah, yeah, I'm in, right?
00:30:30.000 --> 00:30:35.440
Like this is a I I don't wear a lot of things on my lapel normally, but I'm like, this is this is definitely one I think we should all put on.
00:30:35.519 --> 00:30:35.920
So thank you.
00:30:36.079 --> 00:30:37.279
Thank you for the work you're doing.
00:30:37.359 --> 00:30:43.519
Uh thank you for turning uh some challenges that you've discovered in your uh your role and into something very positive.
00:30:43.599 --> 00:30:45.599
And hopefully this is gonna ripple throughout the country.
00:30:45.920 --> 00:30:50.799
She's not cowering, she's turning uh her experience into something amazing for elected officials.
00:30:50.880 --> 00:30:54.640
Marianne, this has been a really important conversation, honestly, one that's overdue.
00:30:54.799 --> 00:30:59.200
Uh thank you for the work you're doing, and thank you for taking the time to sit down with us here at ABICC.
00:30:59.440 --> 00:30:59.599
Thanks.
00:30:59.920 --> 00:31:04.559
So for our listeners who want to learn more and sign the pledge, that's everybody that can do this.
00:31:04.640 --> 00:31:08.799
Head to electrespect.ca, which will be linked in the show notes.
00:31:09.039 --> 00:31:15.920
And if you're an elected official who hasn't yet brought this to your council, well, now you've got a podcast episode to share as your excuse to start the conversation.
00:31:16.160 --> 00:31:17.119
Yeah, I think we'll do that.
00:31:17.279 --> 00:31:20.400
So that's a wrap on this episode of Nonpartisan Hacks.
00:31:20.480 --> 00:31:21.519
We'd love to hear what you think.
00:31:21.680 --> 00:31:28.000
If you've got a guest suggestion, a good government story, or a topic idea, drop us a line at nonpartisanhacks.com.
00:31:28.240 --> 00:31:31.440
Until next time, take care of yourself and your community, Marianne Mayor.
00:31:31.519 --> 00:31:32.079
Thank you very much for the same thing.
00:31:32.240 --> 00:31:32.720
Thank you very much.
00:31:32.799 --> 00:31:34.079
Yeah, thanks for having me.
00:31:37.039 --> 00:31:43.599
Ian Lindsey of Lindsay and Associates has played an active role in the local community since 1979.
00:31:44.240 --> 00:31:50.480
He has been with Remax, Vancouver Island's most advanced real estate business network, since 1996.
00:31:51.200 --> 00:31:57.519
Marketing and selling residential rural strata, recreational investment, and project development real estate.
00:31:57.920 --> 00:32:01.200
You'll find true real estate professionals at IanLindsey.ca.
00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:06.400
Ian Lindsey of Lindsay and Associates has played an active role in the local community since 1979.
00:00:07.040 --> 00:00:13.279
He has been with Remax, Vancouver Island's most advanced real estate business network, since 1996.
00:00:13.919 --> 00:00:20.239
Marketing and selling residential, rural strata, recreational investment, and project development real estate.
00:00:20.640 --> 00:00:24.079
You'll find true real estate professionals at ianlinsey.ca.
00:00:27.120 --> 00:00:33.359
You're listening to Nonpartisan Hacks, the podcast where we talk about good government from the local level on up.
00:00:33.520 --> 00:00:35.920
I'm Joel Grenz, a City of Parksville Counselor.
00:00:36.159 --> 00:00:40.000
And I'm Sean Wood, also a Parksville Counselor and 2026 mayoral candidate.
00:00:40.159 --> 00:00:51.759
We're in Victoria at the AVICC Convention, the Association of Vancouver Island and Coastal Communities, which brings together elected officials from across Vancouver Island and the coast every year.
00:00:52.000 --> 00:00:57.280
And this is the very last AVICC before all the people here go back to the polls.
00:00:57.439 --> 00:01:03.119
So unsurprisingly, everyone's asking each other whether they're gonna run again, and the answers aren't always what you'd expect.
00:01:03.359 --> 00:01:06.159
It's not I'm tired of the budget process, it's something else.
00:01:06.239 --> 00:01:12.000
And our guest today has made it her mission to name that something else and do something about it.
00:01:12.239 --> 00:01:17.120
Marianne Mead Ward is the mayor of Burlington, Ontario, with 16 years in elected office.
00:01:17.280 --> 00:01:30.879
She's also the co-founder of Elect Respect, a movement that started as a small conversation among a group of women in Halton region, and has since grown into a national campaign with hundreds of elected officials and more than 50 municipalities signed on.
00:01:31.040 --> 00:01:41.280
She was recently named Municipal World's Mayor of the Year for that work, which is the only direct elected uh leader in Canada, our mayors.
00:01:41.519 --> 00:01:45.760
Uh and she's here at AVICC to carry the message west.
00:01:46.000 --> 00:01:49.519
So, Mary Mayor Meade Ward, welcome to Nonpartisan Hacks.
00:01:49.680 --> 00:01:50.000
Welcome.
00:01:50.239 --> 00:01:51.120
Thank you so much for having me.
00:01:51.200 --> 00:01:52.799
It's making time for us.
00:01:53.040 --> 00:01:53.200
Yeah.
00:01:53.519 --> 00:02:01.359
Yeah, so you're here at AVICC, uh, which is a whole bunch of elected representatives from across uh Vancouver Island and the coastal communities.
00:02:01.599 --> 00:02:02.319
Why are you here?
00:02:02.480 --> 00:02:03.519
All the way from Ontario.
00:02:03.840 --> 00:02:08.879
Yeah, I was invited by uh mayor of Courtney, BC, Bob Wells.
00:02:08.960 --> 00:02:21.199
He heard about the Elect Respect campaign a couple of months ago, reached out, brought it to his council, and really uh saw the value of it and wanted to give it more attention.
00:02:21.360 --> 00:02:23.360
So invited me to come out here.
00:02:23.520 --> 00:02:54.960
And uh AVICC was was wonderful, giving me a booth out front uh to spread the word, and people have been coming by my table and just talking about their experiences, and it is uh it's wonderful to have a community of support, but the downside of that is the fact that this uh elect respect is needed, that everyone has a story of some terrible behavior on their council or with public, and so it's it's really caught on, and uh it's that it's great to see, uh, but it's it's unfortunate that it has to exist at all.
00:02:55.520 --> 00:02:56.879
Yeah, we we've got our pins on.
00:02:59.280 --> 00:03:00.960
Anyone who's watching will see the pins.
00:03:01.039 --> 00:03:01.520
They're very nice.
00:03:01.680 --> 00:03:06.000
Actually, I've uh I was wearing it yesterday, and multiple people asked me what the pin was about.
00:03:06.159 --> 00:03:08.800
Yeah, and uh they also complimented the design of the pin.
00:03:08.879 --> 00:03:09.680
So, you know, there you go.
00:03:09.919 --> 00:03:10.879
That was somebody in my office.
00:03:10.960 --> 00:03:13.120
I gotta give a shout out to Roman Drobot.
00:03:13.199 --> 00:03:14.000
He designed it.
00:03:14.080 --> 00:03:44.319
It's a it it's a shield and it's got like a check mark for a ballot box, there's a heart in there, and it's uh it's really thoughtful in terms of us coming together and protecting each other and really supporting people that are doing this work because if we can't make democracy safe for people, then people won't run, people will leave, uh, even the public won't participate in dialogue if they think that the you know the focus is gonna come on them and they're gonna get treated with this vitriol.
00:03:44.400 --> 00:03:49.439
And we've seen that happen, and people just retreat then from the public space and we lose those voices.
00:03:49.919 --> 00:03:54.560
Yeah, they protect themselves uh you know from that kind of damaging uh behavior.
00:03:54.960 --> 00:04:10.800
Uh for the listeners, uh are there any situations that kind of jump out uh at you um that kind of stand out as examples of uh of of behavior or conduct that uh would turn people away from running for elected office?
00:04:10.879 --> 00:04:13.280
Are there any kind of examples that pop up for you?
00:04:13.919 --> 00:04:17.600
Well, it's gone as as far as death threats in my own case.
00:04:17.839 --> 00:04:27.759
So uh and this is where social media has really become the fuel to the fire of spreading misinformation, abuse, toxicity.
00:04:27.920 --> 00:04:34.720
And it was Instagram, which we used to think of as the place for pity p pretty pictures, you know, of what you were doing or eating or travels or whatever.
00:04:35.279 --> 00:04:36.160
To get away from the politics.
00:04:36.480 --> 00:04:36.639
Yeah.
00:04:36.879 --> 00:04:38.959
Well, no no longer, unfortunately.
00:04:39.120 --> 00:04:50.800
So uh somebody had been reaching out to my office with a blocked phone number, uh disguised email, uh sending threats, and then they finally used their Instagram account to send a death threat.
00:04:50.879 --> 00:05:02.399
Uh there was a development application in Burlington that they didn't like in their neighborhood, and uh there was a public meeting coming up, and they said, if you come to that uh public meeting, I'm gonna set you on fire.
00:05:03.199 --> 00:05:06.480
And uh the Instagram account was traceable.
00:05:06.720 --> 00:05:09.120
So, of course, we sent all of this to the police.
00:05:09.199 --> 00:05:14.720
They hadn't been able to trace it until then, but through Instagram they were able to find out and identify this individual.
00:05:14.959 --> 00:05:18.160
But they told me not to go to that meeting.
00:05:18.480 --> 00:05:18.800
Wow.
00:05:19.040 --> 00:05:24.399
They said we were not sure if it's you know, if we can keep you safe, essentially.
00:05:24.560 --> 00:05:26.560
And that's my job as the mayor.
00:05:26.639 --> 00:05:27.439
To be at public meetings.
00:05:28.639 --> 00:05:34.079
To be at public meetings, hear from community, you know, uh that's that is part of the job.
00:05:34.160 --> 00:05:35.279
And so it was shocking.
00:05:35.439 --> 00:05:39.519
But it wasn't the first time uh that I'd received a death threat.
00:05:39.600 --> 00:05:42.879
Uh it and it wasn't the last time I was told not to go to a public meeting.
00:05:42.959 --> 00:05:50.560
That happened very recently when uh an individual was threatening to come to City Hall and uh do harm to people.
00:05:50.720 --> 00:05:53.279
We had a hold and secure at our city hall.
00:05:53.600 --> 00:05:55.040
There was a public meeting that night.
00:05:55.199 --> 00:05:59.519
I had an event at City Hall in the lobby that that had to be canceled.
00:05:59.600 --> 00:06:07.040
Uh, and then I was told to not to go to that public uh another public meeting that night uh because the individual was still at large.
00:06:07.199 --> 00:06:16.560
So it is uh seriously affecting my ability to do my job, but it's also terrifying, you know, and and not just for you, for your family.
00:06:16.720 --> 00:06:23.279
My family sees us, you know, I'll never forget calling home and saying, I can't leave my office right now.
00:06:23.439 --> 00:06:29.199
And and then it was on the news, and I called them to let them know you're you're gonna be hearing about this or seeing this imminently.
00:06:29.279 --> 00:06:31.120
There's a hold insecure, I'm safe.
00:06:31.199 --> 00:06:38.480
Uh we're in, you know, we're in our office, but had to turn out the lights, close the blinds, do all the safety protocols for a hold and secure.
00:06:38.639 --> 00:06:47.360
So it uh it it makes people think twice, and then then people who might think about running see what you're being subjected to.
00:06:47.519 --> 00:06:48.879
So I don't need that.
00:06:49.279 --> 00:06:49.600
Right.
00:06:49.839 --> 00:06:58.480
So it it is uh it is also all of that bullying, misinformation, that toxicity, up to and including threats to your personal safety.
00:06:58.639 --> 00:07:06.000
And you know, my message is people shouldn't have to choose between uh service, public service, and their personal safety.
00:07:06.720 --> 00:07:11.279
For anyone listening, though, the sirens that you're hearing in the background are not sound effects that we added to the podcast.
00:07:11.600 --> 00:07:12.879
Those just happen to be going out of the background.
00:07:13.199 --> 00:07:14.480
Yeah, it makes it unworkable.
00:07:14.560 --> 00:07:24.319
And security detail might be affordable for at the provincial or federal levels, but at a municipal level often, you know, some sort of security detail that follows you around isn't isn't in the budget.
00:07:24.560 --> 00:07:25.680
Security gets expensive.
00:07:25.920 --> 00:07:28.240
It makes the job next to unworkable, probably.
00:07:28.639 --> 00:07:40.399
Yeah, in our case, we I mean we have city hall security that that are in the building, but there was a time where they had to staff up uh right around this period where they sent security to my public meetings.
00:07:40.639 --> 00:07:52.480
And it was, I wasn't really aware of the impact it was having on public until um I was at a public meeting and people were starting to approach me, and then they like stopped, and I thought, well, you know, why are you stopping?
00:07:52.560 --> 00:07:59.360
And then I turned and I saw that the this security guard was standing like right there, this giant guy.
00:07:59.439 --> 00:08:02.079
And I'm like, could you just stand a little bit away?
00:08:02.319 --> 00:08:07.600
Like nobody would come and talk to me because they were worried, and and it was so visible.
00:08:07.759 --> 00:08:12.800
And I thought, this is just not okay, that I need this in the first place.
00:08:12.959 --> 00:08:25.839
The fact that people are now feeling intimidated, and it's kind of that I irony, you know, that the security is there to make you feel more safe, and yet it made people feel more nervous and feel like they couldn't come and talk to their own mayor at a public meeting.
00:08:26.160 --> 00:08:30.480
Yeah, so a chill on the entire democratic process, really, there on multiple fronts.
00:08:30.720 --> 00:08:40.000
Uh so but you then turned this challenge and this instead of running in fear and not getting doing something about it, you've clearly done something about it.
00:08:40.240 --> 00:08:44.159
Maybe speak to how you kind of took that and and turned it into power.
00:08:44.799 --> 00:09:00.240
Well, this was uh this was started by I call it my coffee clutch uh of women, my support group, uh elected women in our region, Halton region, which is four municipalities, and we got talking one day about our experience being a woman in elected office.
00:09:00.399 --> 00:09:08.720
And every single person, from trustee to cabinet minister, we invite everybody to the table, and they all had a story of harassment, of abuse.
00:09:08.879 --> 00:09:12.480
One of our MPs left because she was just done with it.
00:09:12.879 --> 00:09:16.159
And so we sit we sat around and we thought, this is not okay.
00:09:16.320 --> 00:09:17.200
What can we do about this?
00:09:17.360 --> 00:09:20.960
And the one thing you can always do is lead by example.
00:09:21.120 --> 00:09:32.879
So we said, okay, we're gonna we're gonna create this pledge, we're gonna commit ourselves to being respectful of public, respectful of each other, because sometimes this is elected official against another elected official.
00:09:33.120 --> 00:09:38.159
And then we're gonna in return ask the public and our colleagues to treat us with respect.
00:09:38.320 --> 00:09:54.080
We're gonna going to ask for appropriate resources to be directed here, uh, so appropriate enforcement authorities to take this seriously and not just see it as, well, that's politics, that's what people do, you know, to get involved, and then um call it out when we see it.
00:09:54.240 --> 00:09:56.399
So that was the essence of the pledge.
00:09:56.559 --> 00:10:00.159
We took the pledge, we launched it, and then it just took off.
00:10:00.320 --> 00:10:04.159
And I think it took off because people two two things.
00:10:04.320 --> 00:10:08.399
Everyone had a story, unfortunately, and people felt, well, this is something I can do.
00:10:08.879 --> 00:10:10.639
Lead by example is something I can do.
00:10:10.720 --> 00:10:13.039
I don't have to change other people's behavior right now.
00:10:13.200 --> 00:10:14.080
I can change myself.
00:10:14.639 --> 00:10:38.799
Well, I love that because I think the problem has actually kind of been started by politicians in a lot of ways by getting getting and not protecting the kind of vocation or the profession of being a politician and denigrating the entire exercise of being a politician, which at the end of the day is just people in your community going to step up and saying, I'm gonna be your representative in government and help make decisions on our behalf.
00:10:38.879 --> 00:10:46.559
Uh, but then in order to get that seat, they're willing, we shouldn't be willing as politicians to do whatever it takes to win.
00:10:46.720 --> 00:10:49.039
We should do what is uh respectful.
00:10:49.200 --> 00:11:03.440
We can argue about policy, we can argue about the best way forward, but doing these sorts of threatening and personal attacks, it has started, I think, in a lot of ways with politicians, but we should I like how you're like we're starting to end it with politicians as well, doing a pledge to say we're not doing this anymore.
00:11:03.919 --> 00:11:12.320
Well, and people ask, you know, how did we get here, right, as a country, and it's not just in Canada, obviously, and it's it's clearly not just a Burlington, Ontario problem.
00:11:12.399 --> 00:11:16.080
I'm out here in BC hearing exactly the same type of stories.
00:11:16.240 --> 00:11:41.200
And so, you know, the the the fact of the matter is that people with the biggest megaphones, which tend to be elected leaders uh at the highest levels, have engaged in behavior over the years that that provides permission to do bullying, to to you know, describe your opponent in derogatory terms or nicknames, spread misinformation, attack ads, like all of that, which don't which focus on people, not policy.
00:11:42.159 --> 00:11:49.120
So if if people are seeing that permission granted and that behavior at the highest levels, then they feel that they can do that.
00:11:49.360 --> 00:11:55.039
And so that's why I think that's why it's become so powerful when elected officials say, I'm not doing it that way.
00:11:55.200 --> 00:12:02.080
This is about policy, this is about good dialogue, this is about democracy and and debating the issues in an appropriate way.
00:12:02.240 --> 00:12:03.919
And that's what I'm committing to.
00:12:04.000 --> 00:12:12.799
And the public has really responded well to that, and we're we're trying to create a bigger megaphone to counteract the misinformation and that abuse.
00:12:13.200 --> 00:12:16.320
Yeah, and change the culture amongst ourselves as politicians.
00:12:16.480 --> 00:12:16.879
Yeah, absolutely.
00:12:17.200 --> 00:12:31.600
And when we take it out on the people instead of uh, you know, discussing the policy, it's really undermining our own argument because uh, hey, I don't have any actually good arguments against your policy, so what I'm gonna do is you know make fun of you as a person or take it out on you as a person.
00:12:31.759 --> 00:12:34.960
So really it doesn't help your argument, it weakens it, it shows how weak it is.
00:12:35.120 --> 00:12:37.200
So um it's not a great tactic.
00:12:37.600 --> 00:12:40.240
No, uh calling somebody an idiot doesn't persuade them.
00:12:40.480 --> 00:12:42.080
No, you know, really gonna mean out.
00:12:42.240 --> 00:12:42.399
Okay.
00:12:43.679 --> 00:12:45.200
This is why your policy is bad.
00:12:45.360 --> 00:12:56.639
No, it it doesn't persuade, and I encourage people uh I say have res have more respect for your own position on something to mount a credible argument and not get into personal attacks.
00:12:56.720 --> 00:13:10.559
And that I can see when I say that to people, sometimes they kind of think, oh, yeah, I you know, maybe I should go back to the drawing board and think about why I support this position and and then put that case forward to see if I can persuade anybody.
00:13:10.879 --> 00:13:11.039
Yeah.
00:13:11.200 --> 00:13:20.559
Joel and I are very fortunate because we I think we both kind of ran on that uh this term, and our our term has been relatively quite good.
00:13:20.799 --> 00:13:29.120
Um I think Pickering might come uh to mind because we we've hung out with one of those counselors at uh in Ottawa.
00:13:29.600 --> 00:13:40.159
Um not not maybe the counselor that you're thinking of, but uh you know we've seen some pretty serious issues in Canada and and different municipalities, and you probably know all of those stories.
00:13:40.639 --> 00:13:53.919
Um and and I think it you're right to let's uh uh handle it at the political level because uh number one, that's what we can control, but we do see ongoing issues at those tables that could be a lot better, and you're setting the example.
00:13:54.240 --> 00:13:59.440
These are leadership, absolutely lead with respect and uh lead by example.
00:13:59.919 --> 00:14:01.919
Well, I was actually just out in Pickering.
00:14:02.159 --> 00:14:16.799
We had uh the Ontario Big City Mayor's Caucus annual general meeting was there, and we're the 29 largest municipalities in Ontario, and uh so we got talking about the situation that the mayor, who was our host, was facing in Pickering.
00:14:17.120 --> 00:14:28.799
And they have had eight, uh about 22 complaints, eight findings against one of their counselors and for spreading misinformation, abusive, and inappropriate treatment.
00:14:28.879 --> 00:14:31.840
Uh and they the tool they have is to dock your pay.
00:14:32.559 --> 00:14:39.279
And that the mayor was telling me that this individual has not been paid for about two years and yet continues at all.
00:14:39.360 --> 00:14:39.440
Yeah.
00:14:39.759 --> 00:14:52.879
Right, because they the you know the findings keep lying up and it kept getting docked, and it just also shows just how limited, but they still have they still have virtual council meetings because it's been become so disruptive.
00:14:53.039 --> 00:15:13.600
And so it really then, as uh we were saying earlier, it it affects your ability to do your job, it creates a really toxic environment for staff and council, and there's really limited tools at the municipal level to deal with somebody who is behaving in this way, and they've used every tool that they have, but the behavior hasn't stopped, it's it's continued.
00:15:13.759 --> 00:15:23.679
The the community, uh, you know, she has a community of support behind her, and uh, you know, it's just become really, really unfortunate for the people just trying to do good work in their community.
00:15:24.000 --> 00:15:24.240
Yeah.
00:15:24.399 --> 00:15:28.559
We have talked about code of conduct at uh city of Parksville in our regional district, etc.
00:15:28.799 --> 00:15:47.519
And you know, one caution that always comes up is it could be weaponized, you know, because we are in politics, and so there is say say a slate or a group at uh at a table that can outnumber another group and then you can file things, and then maybe code of conduct could be you know weaponized, and so it's too bad that you need the tools, but at the same time you don't want them to be weaponized on a political level.
00:15:47.759 --> 00:15:53.120
Uh obviously they're using all the tools that they can in Pickering, but doesn't seem to be, you know, helping sort of.
00:15:53.200 --> 00:15:56.159
It's maybe it's putting gasoline on the fire, who knows?
00:15:56.240 --> 00:15:57.840
But they're using the tools that they have.
00:15:58.159 --> 00:16:01.519
Um and I don't know if they're seeing any results, but you know, yeah.
00:16:01.759 --> 00:16:05.679
Well they certainly other people are are like us, you know, we're talking about it.
00:16:05.759 --> 00:16:08.399
We're talking about the need for appropriate tools.
00:16:08.480 --> 00:16:29.120
They've taken the steps that they can, and it, you know, what we're discussing in Ontario now, uh, the province is looking at legislation that's been requested where an independent judge could look at uh you know, would have to reach a high bar of very egregious behavior, but could remove somebody from office as the ultimate penalty.
00:16:29.360 --> 00:16:39.039
Because in in a couple of the worst of the worst examples, the call, you know, the rest of counsel can't it it grinds your business to a halt in some cases.
00:16:39.120 --> 00:16:41.200
It creates a very toxic environment.
00:16:41.360 --> 00:16:49.519
And, you know, if that was happening in a pro vet a professional office, non-political, the person would be dealt with or fired.
00:16:50.000 --> 00:16:52.879
And and so that's become really controversial.
00:16:52.960 --> 00:17:00.240
You know, should you be able to remove somebody or should the voters be able to only remove, you know, some provinces have recall legislation.
00:17:00.320 --> 00:17:02.559
Uh, we haven't gone there in Ontario.
00:17:02.720 --> 00:17:08.880
But but the fact of the matter is the tools are very limited to try to correct the behavior.
00:17:09.200 --> 00:17:15.359
And even when you use them, uh it often doesn't change and it can be weaponized and it can make things worse.
00:17:15.519 --> 00:17:27.920
So people will not file because the political, you know, fallout of that, it, you know, especially if there's a finding that, you know, this wasn't great, but it doesn't reach the threshold, then it just embols.
00:17:28.240 --> 00:17:31.039
Now you've got the whole rest of the term to fallout from that.
00:17:31.680 --> 00:17:32.640
Exactly, exactly.
00:17:32.799 --> 00:17:40.960
And there are staff and and people, you know, in my own case where you know people have come to me and said, you know, I've been treated this way, uh, what can you do about it?
00:17:41.119 --> 00:17:47.119
And I've encouraged them to file a complaint, and they don't want to do that because they recognize there's a political price to pay as well.
00:17:47.759 --> 00:17:50.880
There's so there are different tools that we've been mentioning here.
00:17:50.960 --> 00:17:55.359
Uh some of those are kind of more reactive tools, like after the fact is trying to deal with it.
00:17:55.519 --> 00:17:58.079
Um this program is a proactive one.
00:17:58.720 --> 00:18:04.559
Uh maybe you get into some of the nuts and bolts of how you are trying to change the kind of culture and conversation.
00:18:04.720 --> 00:18:05.599
You mentioned the pledge.
00:18:05.680 --> 00:18:12.799
Maybe you get a little bit into sort of like what are the nuts and bolts, what are you actually asking of elected representatives in the wider community to do as part of this campaign?
00:18:14.000 --> 00:18:16.000
Well, it does start with a commitment.
00:18:16.079 --> 00:18:23.359
If we don't commit ourselves to respectful democracy, all the tools in the world aren't going to force us to do that because people will just thumb their nose at it.
00:18:23.680 --> 00:18:25.200
So how do we people do the commitment part?
00:18:25.519 --> 00:18:27.680
So they can go online, electrespect.ca.
00:18:27.920 --> 00:18:34.640
There's you can just fill out your name and uh then you've, you know, you'll be listed along with all the other people.
00:18:34.880 --> 00:18:39.440
We're encouraging people to ask, you know, you elections are coming up in Ontario and here in BC.
00:18:39.839 --> 00:18:42.400
Ask the people running have you taken the pledge?
00:18:42.559 --> 00:18:45.039
Have you committed to respectful democracy?
00:18:45.200 --> 00:18:47.920
And hold your elected officials to account.
00:18:48.079 --> 00:18:50.640
Uh councils can bring it to their tables.
00:18:50.720 --> 00:18:59.039
So there is a sample resolution online at uh uh electrespect.ca and over 60 municipalities across the country have brought that forward.
00:18:59.200 --> 00:19:00.559
And then you gotta live by it.
00:19:00.720 --> 00:19:10.480
So it's not enough to just say, I believe this, but if people haven't made the commitment, you have there's not there's a limited way to hold them to account, right?
00:19:10.720 --> 00:19:22.559
And so uh once they've made the commitment, then you have a stronger argument to say, hey, you said that you know, you pledged to this, your council said you were gonna treat each other with respect and now live up to that.
00:19:23.200 --> 00:19:23.440
Yeah.
00:19:23.599 --> 00:19:27.279
So sign the pledge, and that's something that every anybody can do.
00:19:27.680 --> 00:19:35.920
Anyone can do when they're seeking office, have been elected to office, can go online, sign the pledge, and then they'll show up on the website as having signed the pledge.
00:19:36.000 --> 00:19:36.160
Yep.
00:19:36.400 --> 00:19:43.519
And then they can point to that or link to that from their campaign website and or whatever, and put them themselves there.
00:19:43.680 --> 00:19:52.079
Uh and then in terms of the public, uh, getting extra awareness to the public is also part of this, then I assume, to try to get the public aware of the pledge through that sort of network.
00:19:52.480 --> 00:19:54.319
Yes, and the public can sign it as well.
00:19:54.480 --> 00:20:06.559
We ask them to, because we want the public to treat elected officials with respect too, because it becomes this vicious cycle if if we're behaving badly and then the public treats us badly and then we treat them badly, and then it's like this vicious circle.
00:20:06.720 --> 00:20:13.599
So we need everybody to commit to this, and there's actually more public than elected officials who've signed on, and they're they've had it, right?
00:20:13.680 --> 00:20:17.200
They just want people to govern with their best interest in mind.
00:20:17.359 --> 00:20:22.160
Nobody likes to see, you know, the the bun fights uh or worse on council.
00:20:22.319 --> 00:20:24.960
They they want good people to continue to run.
00:20:25.039 --> 00:20:36.000
So in our own case, when our member of parliament said, I'm stepping away, the I don't need the abuse, the threats, the the death threats, the all of that, uh, people were really sad.
00:20:36.319 --> 00:20:46.400
You know, we lost a good voice and good representative, including people that may not have voted for that person, but they they recognize that that's not we don't want people leaving for that reason.
00:20:46.720 --> 00:20:47.119
Oh, yeah.
00:20:47.440 --> 00:21:00.240
I mean that you get maybe some of the best people that you would want to be in that role, and then the people who are willing to do all that sort of stuff and get into the muck are the ones that are gonna stick around still, and the community is only gonna suffer if that's what we're doing here at the council table.
00:21:00.720 --> 00:21:03.119
Doesn't have to be part of the job, doesn't have to be part of the game.
00:21:03.440 --> 00:21:06.079
Uh respectful discussion is how you get to good decisions.
00:21:06.160 --> 00:21:07.920
You're not all always all gonna agree.
00:21:08.079 --> 00:21:08.880
That's actually great.
00:21:09.039 --> 00:21:12.480
If I you know, if we all agreed on something, there's no point in having all of us at the table.
00:21:12.559 --> 00:21:16.240
So disagreement is actually a way to you know get to good decisions.
00:21:16.480 --> 00:21:19.920
You're gonna bring an opinion that I haven't thought of, a perspective.
00:21:20.079 --> 00:21:23.200
Um, let's talk it out, we'll have a vote, and you move on.
00:21:23.359 --> 00:21:26.160
You don't take things personally, you don't make things personal for the other person.
00:21:26.240 --> 00:21:26.400
Yeah.
00:21:26.640 --> 00:21:27.759
They get to good decisions.
00:21:28.319 --> 00:21:28.559
Yeah.
00:21:28.960 --> 00:21:29.680
Yeah, exactly.
00:21:29.839 --> 00:21:36.720
And and people won't feel comfortable airing a different perspective and if if they see this kind of behavior.
00:21:36.799 --> 00:21:42.960
And and it's worse for people that are already underrepresented in elected office, they get it worse.
00:21:43.119 --> 00:21:46.319
Uh women are still underrepresented municipally.
00:21:46.480 --> 00:21:51.599
Only about uh 20% of mayors across this country are women.
00:21:52.000 --> 00:22:03.359
And um, you know, we every everyone, men and women, can be uh subjected to this, but women get a particular Brand of uh harassment and abuse.
00:22:03.440 --> 00:22:04.480
It's very personal.
00:22:04.720 --> 00:22:17.920
Women get threatened with rape, women get, you know, your family members are put online, and you know, so that that bec it becomes even worse in terms of what they're subjected to.
00:22:18.000 --> 00:22:31.920
And then, you know, people of color get a particular kind of abuse around, you know, go back where you came from, or um, you know, just just really vile, very personal identity-based um, you know, commentary.
00:22:32.079 --> 00:22:44.160
And uh, and to SLGBTQ, uh, indigenous people, like all of the folks that we want their voices at the table, deserve to be at the table, represent a really important perspective.
00:22:44.319 --> 00:22:50.400
Uh, it's even harder for them because they get even more abuse and very personal.
00:22:50.480 --> 00:22:58.400
It's a very particular type of personal attack that people are subjected to, which is um it's it's just horrifying.
00:22:58.960 --> 00:23:06.400
We've we've uh you spoke to anonymity and the kind of the internet as being uh playing a role, and Joel and I have talked about it on the podcast before.
00:23:06.559 --> 00:23:13.680
Like it's very easy to you know be on the internet and typing stuff and you're not chatting with the person over a coffee.
00:23:13.839 --> 00:23:14.000
Yeah.
00:23:14.319 --> 00:23:28.720
Um I've found that uh you know, someone might be a certain way on email or on social media, and then if I invite them out to a coffee and chat with them, well, funny enough, when they're leaving the coffee, they're like, Oh, you know, Sean, listen to me, and he had some really good points and and it kind of calms it down.
00:23:28.960 --> 00:23:43.599
But but but people are often, I don't know, they can't find the courage to actually chat with the human being who has been elected um and uh and kind of hash it out and just chat respectfully in person instead of hiding on a keyboard.
00:23:43.759 --> 00:23:51.359
And I think with the internet that really took it to kind of a whole new level of anonymity where you're like, well, who is this person that's sending me death threats?
00:23:51.440 --> 00:23:51.759
Who is it?
00:23:51.920 --> 00:23:56.079
Oh, well, we posted on Instagram, so now we can track it down, and then you might be able to find a name.
00:23:56.240 --> 00:24:03.920
But when you're nameless, well, you know, that's a really easy way to, you know, start throwing out throwing out stuff, insults and whatever else.
00:24:04.319 --> 00:24:08.880
Well, and it got, you know, I've been in office 16 years, so pre and post COVID.
00:24:09.279 --> 00:24:15.599
And it was really during COVID that that obviously that anonymity went through the ceiling.
00:24:15.759 --> 00:24:18.880
And people's, you know, people were anxious, they were concerned.
00:24:19.039 --> 00:24:24.160
It, you know, took a toll on everyone's mental health because the situation was so difficult.
00:24:24.400 --> 00:24:30.400
Um, and and that's when it where it really started, where I saw I got my first death threat during COVID.
00:24:30.480 --> 00:24:39.200
Uh, but that keyboard warrior, that anonymity that just uh really uh has never really returned to what it was pre-COVID.
00:24:39.440 --> 00:24:41.519
And it does allow people that platform.
00:24:41.680 --> 00:24:48.720
And now with bots with uh fake accounts, you know, uh I'm seeing it now uh much more.
00:24:48.799 --> 00:24:58.799
I'm seeing it on Facebook as well, which you think that's the one platform it's hard to be anonymous, but people just take a fake picture, they have a fake name.
00:24:59.359 --> 00:25:04.799
I've I've now learned, like people have told me that's a fake account, and they've showed me the signs to see.
00:25:05.440 --> 00:25:12.480
But um, you know, and it can be, it can, it it amazes me the issues that will get people worked up.
00:25:12.640 --> 00:25:15.680
Uh we were talking about whether we would have speed cameras.
00:25:15.759 --> 00:25:18.240
Um the province took away our right to do that.
00:25:18.400 --> 00:25:23.119
I supported having uh speed cameras that would send a ticket, just like a red light camera.
00:25:23.759 --> 00:25:29.279
Um I was getting anonymous threats from places like Texas.
00:25:29.759 --> 00:25:30.160
Wow.
00:25:30.400 --> 00:25:30.720
Okay.
00:25:31.519 --> 00:25:40.319
Like all over the country, people were weighing in on speed cameras as being an uh, you know, an assault on on freedom, I suppose.
00:25:40.480 --> 00:25:45.119
And I said, no, it's just uh behave yourself and you don't have to worry about it.
00:25:45.279 --> 00:25:46.000
Slow down.
00:25:47.119 --> 00:25:48.799
Easiest ticket in the world to dodge.
00:25:48.880 --> 00:25:50.000
So stop speeding.
00:25:50.400 --> 00:25:50.880
Slow down.
00:25:51.200 --> 00:25:53.920
Um and then uh you have them in lots of places.
00:25:54.160 --> 00:26:02.799
Yeah, well, we were about to install and lots of communities had them, and then the province said no, it they and it was it, you know, I still think it was the wrong decision.
00:26:02.880 --> 00:26:07.599
But what I wasn't prepared for is when I posted about Burlington getting mail from across the country.
00:26:08.079 --> 00:26:09.200
Yeah, that's an international issue.
00:26:09.599 --> 00:26:10.000
North America.
00:26:10.400 --> 00:26:14.559
Yeah, you're gonna be getting some feedback from people that don't live anywhere near the jurisdiction.
00:26:14.880 --> 00:26:15.200
Exactly.
00:26:15.440 --> 00:26:17.119
That's actually an internet wrinkle.
00:26:17.440 --> 00:26:24.559
Yeah, and the other one that was really telling, and it goes back to what uh I was talking about with marginalized people getting getting worse.
00:26:24.799 --> 00:26:26.400
I posted about Vaisaki.
00:26:27.200 --> 00:26:32.319
And you know, initially it was people in my community saying, Thank you for recognizing this.
00:26:32.480 --> 00:26:38.640
It was like the simplest, you know, who for those celebrating, uh, we honor that and you know, have a great day.
00:26:38.799 --> 00:26:43.680
And uh again, around all of a sudden I'm like getting pinged like crazy.
00:26:43.920 --> 00:26:49.599
And uh it was people that were it it just went right off the deep end.
00:26:49.680 --> 00:26:50.480
We had to turn off comments.
00:26:50.880 --> 00:26:54.720
Well, again, to your point, like probably bots, probably not actually real people.
00:26:54.880 --> 00:26:55.119
Yep.
00:26:55.359 --> 00:27:02.559
Uh we had a controversy years ago in Parksville where a mayor was writing op-eds under a fake name into the newspaper.
00:27:02.720 --> 00:27:05.039
And today that's like, oh, that's that's cute.
00:27:05.200 --> 00:27:06.559
That's adorable.
00:27:06.799 --> 00:27:07.119
Yeah.
00:27:08.079 --> 00:27:12.079
It's like most of the editor are in the comment section.
00:27:12.240 --> 00:27:20.480
So many of those are exactly they're just Astroturf or uh fake people or yeah, alternative egos, alternative egos, or yeah.
00:27:21.119 --> 00:27:25.599
Our our city had to turn off the comments just permanently on the city, say, Facebook account or something.
00:27:25.839 --> 00:27:30.160
It's because you you if you're gonna manage if you're gonna have them turned on, you'll have to manage them.
00:27:30.400 --> 00:27:31.759
So it's just easier to turn them off.
00:27:31.839 --> 00:27:33.200
And so that's what the city has done.
00:27:33.599 --> 00:27:36.640
We have people on social media and manage our comments, et cetera.
00:27:36.720 --> 00:27:40.880
But well, it becomes a platform for spreading hate, misinformation.
00:27:41.119 --> 00:27:48.799
You know, we learned that again during COVID, where people would start posting on my feeds a lot of misinformation, disinformation.
00:27:48.960 --> 00:28:03.119
And so we had to, we had to constantly monitor it, and eventually we turned off comments because it just it wasn't, you know, the purpose for us to post was to spread good information and not be a platformer be hijacked for misinformation.
00:28:03.279 --> 00:28:38.960
And you know, that's the biggest issue that I see now with social media is that there's so much misinformation spread that with the demise, uh certainly in our area, of print media and people increasingly looking online to get their source of information and preferring platforms like Facebook or Instagram, you know, talking amongst their friends to get their information, misinformation can spread in a nanosecond, and and so can the kinds of um you know things that are said about elected officials, things that damage your reputation, that can spread like wildfire as well.
00:28:39.039 --> 00:28:42.000
And there's it's very almost impossible to combat it.
00:28:42.640 --> 00:28:51.759
Well, and if a malicious character is out there in the world who who discovered maybe during COVID are really it was very clear during COVID that you can spread misinformation.
00:28:51.839 --> 00:28:58.400
And if your only goal is to create dissension in democracies, it's a pretty handy tool to do that.
00:28:58.559 --> 00:29:02.960
And uh and now we've just seen that more and more on every level of government.
00:29:03.200 --> 00:29:09.519
So I think what you're doing here is really great because it it's saying, okay, for politicians, we are not participating in that.
00:29:09.920 --> 00:29:21.279
And we should all recognize that what's happening in the comment section may not actually be a reflection of what the community is really thinking because the people that are talking in those comment sections may not actually be in the community.
00:29:21.359 --> 00:29:23.039
They may be Texas bots.
00:29:23.279 --> 00:29:28.160
Um we're here with a group of local government elected officials thinking about running again.
00:29:28.319 --> 00:29:33.440
Uh maybe just to wrap things up, do you want to give kind of like your 30-second pitch that you've been giving to folks here in the room?
00:29:33.599 --> 00:29:37.359
And uh that can kind of give us our nutshell of what you're up to here.
00:29:37.839 --> 00:29:43.440
Well, uh public service is a huge honor, and uh no one should have to risk their personal safety.
00:29:43.599 --> 00:29:51.359
So I want to thank everyone for actually signing the pledge, stepping up, bringing it to their councils, because the change starts with us, right?
00:29:51.440 --> 00:30:01.759
We have to be the change we want to see, and the opportunity to not only hear the stories and why this is necessary, but to recognize that people are saying we need to do better is inspiring itself.
00:30:02.160 --> 00:30:02.319
Yeah.
00:30:02.480 --> 00:30:03.599
I think I've taken the pledge.
00:30:03.680 --> 00:30:06.319
I think I've uh I think I've signed it on the website.
00:30:06.640 --> 00:30:07.119
Okay, great.
00:30:07.359 --> 00:30:07.759
It's great.
00:30:07.920 --> 00:30:08.400
Yeah.
00:30:08.640 --> 00:30:10.079
Did oh, oh, you're looking at me.
00:30:10.240 --> 00:30:10.880
I haven't done it yet.
00:30:10.960 --> 00:30:11.279
I will do it.
00:30:11.519 --> 00:30:11.759
Do it.
00:30:12.160 --> 00:30:13.680
Do it! Electrospect.ca.
00:30:14.079 --> 00:30:14.640
I have the button.
00:30:14.799 --> 00:30:18.079
I only did it because I chatted with Bob uh, I don't know, a month ago or something.
00:30:19.119 --> 00:30:20.240
Yeah, no, I'll definitely do it.
00:30:20.319 --> 00:30:24.000
And and uh I'll put this up on my campaign website as well.
00:30:24.160 --> 00:30:26.160
I think it's a great initiative you're doing.
00:30:26.240 --> 00:30:29.920
Uh as soon as I saw the the booth there, I'm like, oh yeah, yeah, I'm in, right?
00:30:30.000 --> 00:30:35.440
Like this is a I I don't wear a lot of things on my lapel normally, but I'm like, this is this is definitely one I think we should all put on.
00:30:35.519 --> 00:30:35.920
So thank you.
00:30:36.079 --> 00:30:37.279
Thank you for the work you're doing.
00:30:37.359 --> 00:30:43.519
Uh thank you for turning uh some challenges that you've discovered in your uh your role and into something very positive.
00:30:43.599 --> 00:30:45.599
And hopefully this is gonna ripple throughout the country.
00:30:45.920 --> 00:30:50.799
She's not cowering, she's turning uh her experience into something amazing for elected officials.
00:30:50.880 --> 00:30:54.640
Marianne, this has been a really important conversation, honestly, one that's overdue.
00:30:54.799 --> 00:30:59.200
Uh thank you for the work you're doing, and thank you for taking the time to sit down with us here at ABICC.
00:30:59.440 --> 00:30:59.599
Thanks.
00:30:59.920 --> 00:31:04.559
So for our listeners who want to learn more and sign the pledge, that's everybody that can do this.
00:31:04.640 --> 00:31:08.799
Head to electrespect.ca, which will be linked in the show notes.
00:31:09.039 --> 00:31:15.920
And if you're an elected official who hasn't yet brought this to your council, well, now you've got a podcast episode to share as your excuse to start the conversation.
00:31:16.160 --> 00:31:17.119
Yeah, I think we'll do that.
00:31:17.279 --> 00:31:20.400
So that's a wrap on this episode of Nonpartisan Hacks.
00:31:20.480 --> 00:31:21.519
We'd love to hear what you think.
00:31:21.680 --> 00:31:28.000
If you've got a guest suggestion, a good government story, or a topic idea, drop us a line at nonpartisanhacks.com.
00:31:28.240 --> 00:31:31.440
Until next time, take care of yourself and your community, Marianne Mayor.
00:31:31.519 --> 00:31:32.079
Thank you very much for the same thing.
00:31:32.240 --> 00:31:32.720
Thank you very much.
00:31:32.799 --> 00:31:34.079
Yeah, thanks for having me.
00:31:37.039 --> 00:31:43.599
Ian Lindsey of Lindsay and Associates has played an active role in the local community since 1979.
00:31:44.240 --> 00:31:50.480
He has been with Remax, Vancouver Island's most advanced real estate business network, since 1996.
00:31:51.200 --> 00:31:57.519
Marketing and selling residential rural strata, recreational investment, and project development real estate.
00:31:57.920 --> 00:32:01.200
You'll find true real estate professionals at IanLindsey.ca.
