speaker-0: How many of you out there like to start each day with a to-do list? You know, you organize your thoughts, you organize your tasks, then you write them down. And every time you check something off the list, you feel good. And the more checks, the better you feel. Maybe you're the type of person who will write something down that you've already done just so you can get the joy of checking it off. Today's guest is Kathy Kulesha. She's a trainer, a speaker, a coach, and she's going to share with us the difference between a to-do list And what she calls a to be list, helping us make the mental shift from doing to being. All of this and so much more starts now on the podcast.
speaker-1: Welcome to the Prior Learning Podcast. I'm Kathy Kalesha and I am today's guest. During each episode of the Prior Learning Podcast, you'll meet someone like me. They could be a trainer, a subject matter authority, or an expert in their field. We'll talk about HR, wellness, personal development, and the ongoing need for growth, learning, and workplace training. I invite you to join us for practical conversations designed to inform, inspire, and support your professional development. Now, on with the show.
speaker-0: Give us a little background. Where did you start? How did you end up basically where you are? How'd you end up as a as a leadership coach?
speaker-1: Well, I'm gonna give you the short version of it because you know I'm quite seasoned. So I worked in corporate America for thirty years. I worked at hospitality and I grew my way from being literally a bus girl to an executive in corporate America, corpor in a corporate office. And then I ended up getting kicked off the train and, you know, terminated, whatever you want to call it. And so I was and I was in my probably early forties of that time. And I just kind of took some time off and thought, you know what, I've been doing this for a long time and let me just figure out what's next. And I ended up going into wellness for about eight years or so. And then that overlapped with hanging around speakers first at Toastmasters. And then I started meeting speakers. And so I ended up one thing led to another. And I got a coach. And she actually is the one who referred me to prior. And I started training with prior and Cultivating my speaking and training skills.
speaker-0: So I'm guessing when you were a kid in elementary school, this isn't what you wanted to be, right? Everyone's dressed up as like a a fireman or an astronaut and you're walking around with like a little carry-on suitcase and a neck pillow.
speaker-1: N no. Actually, I think I wanted to be a pilot. Okay. Like I remember, but then I did I had to wear glasses. And back then, I don't know what it is now, but back then they're like you have to have 2020 vision. So then when I got to college, I had no idea what I wanted to do. And it took me three years to even declare a major. So yeah. Sl walking around with suitcases and neck pillows and every medication you need for an emergency was not on my bucket list when I was about seven years old.
speaker-0: Yeah. I I guess most people who end up doing this for a living, it's not something that they think about until, you know, a little bit later in life. so let me ask you this. And and you s you mentioned pilot, but if you weren't doing this, what would you like to be doing? What do you think you would be doing?
speaker-1: I think now and it's really just because of where I am in my life, I think I would get more involved in a non profit and just really start me, isn't that what we all want to do? We wanna make a difference in the world. So I think I'd be working for a nonprofit trying to do some good and help people and make the world a better place.
speaker-0: That's a really that's a actually I think that's what we like. That's what we like about you. You know, you come from this place where it's really not about making a buck or it's not it's not a business. It's really about helping people and sewing into them. And that's and that's really kind of why I I'm excited. when I did some research on you, Kathy, everybody's like, you you gotta listen to Kathy. You gotta you gotta l listen to her message. And I know that you you talk a lot about the difference between doing Leadership stuff, for example, versus actually being a leader, or you know, doing managerial stuff versus actually being a manager, or look, even if you're not in the corporate world, maybe doing parenting stuff, right? You're so busy doing parenting stuff that you're not actually a parent. Is is that really what you're talking about when you you talk about the difference between a a to-do list and a to be list?
speaker-1: that's exactly it. It's yeah. It's it's forgetting about like not forgetting, because we have to get things done, right? Everybody has things that need to get done. Now I'm not I'm a only a dog parent, but I'm an amazing aunt. But I have sisters who are parents, and of course they have husbands that come with them. They have things that need to get done. They work off calendars and it's very organized. And, you know, at work, you have a list of things that have to get done. And depending on your role, you may have a lot of things that need to get done. But it is being able to recognize between all of that and then who you are and how you're showing up for your team.
speaker-0: So when did the to be list idea come to you? When did you say, you know, I'm gonna take this to do list one step further? When when did that start being a thing for you?
speaker-1: Well, you I think the benefit of being me now is I get to reflect on when I learned the lesson. And then later in life we get to articulate it. But the idea itself, I had I I was at the Embassy Suites Hotel in Seacaucus, New Jersey. I know sounds very glamorous. and we were in the middle of a ton of issues there, labor labor relations issues. And I was actually was supposed to get transferred and promoted to another property, but they held me back. They brought a new and a new general manager. His name was Ralph. And his first week he sat me down and the way the structure was, it was in a general manager and an assistant general manager and other department heads. And he said, Kathy, what's your career goals? And I was really thinking at that moment, we're in the middle. It was just a mess. And I'm like, now I was in my 20s. So I probably did one of those like Valley Girl things. Well I want to be a general manager, of course. I'm I'm sure I didn't do it that way. but I said I want to be a general manager. And he looked at me and he said, Well, then be the general manager. When you show up every day, be the general manager. And he was the first one that planted that idea in me. And he's probably one of the best mentors I ever had. And it did change the way I walked into that building. I remember the next day. I was parking my car and coming in the back door, you know, for another long day. And when I walked in, the back of the building was this beautiful atrium hotel with glistening glass floors, you know, marble floors and plants everywhere. And I walked in and I was remembering what Ralph said. And so that was the beginning, a little tiny beginning of that seed getting planted and me thinking differently when I walked in and thinking more about the people and how I showed up and who I talk to first and not about grabbing my to do list and getting everything done, little by little.
speaker-0: I I know that eventually this kind of evolved into well, I know that there's there basically three ideas that kind of help shape your own leadership journey. so I'm assuming that this was the impetus for for be the leader, right? Where you started to have this mental shift that that you should start to to be the leader. So how did that end up changing the way that you behaved or interacted with people?
speaker-1: Well, I you know, I did over time it gave me this wider, broader vision or view of the hotel. Now to be honest with I was always a people person. You know, that's my personality style. But I think in some ways it reinforced for me that the people have to come first. Okay. Right. I mean, I had back then I was twenty something, wet behind the ears, grew up in Las Vegas, you know, moved to New Jersey. Everyone on my staff basically spoke Spanish or They were from Haiti, so like a French Creole. And so I had to invest a lot of time in developing those relationships when I first got there as a housekeeping manager. And so I was a people person. I think it reinforced that the people have to come first. And then also it made me think about how you're showing up, not just for the team, but also people above you. Because that was my boss asking me what I want to be and you know what I want to do with my career. And he was new, but I'll be honest with you, I don't know that anybody else above him actually knew what my career aspirations were. I assumed that that's just the path I was on. But I think that's what a lot of us do is we assume what's next, but we haven't had a actual conversation with anyone that can make it happen for us.
speaker-0: So so point one, be the leader. And so I so I wanna ask, is this anything like dressing for the job you want? Is that part of it? Or or is there more to it?
speaker-1: yeah, I think that is definitely part of it. So it's you think about how you show up, how you treat people, how you communicate, right? There's a lot of choices that we get to make, and some of them are not good. Really thinking about the choices you make day in, day out. it's about how you dress, right? It it's all of it, you know. But I think too, there's a lot of like ethical decisions and values we want to have. And, you know, it it you get to decide like which situations do you put yourself in and which do you don't. You you know, and a lot of people I don't think really think about that 'cause we just want to live our lives. But I was I did want to be high up in an organization. Like I knew that in my gut. So that formed my values and my decisions and how I treated people, how I showed up. All of it is under that umbrella of be the leader.
speaker-0: Yeah, that's you know, a as you're talking, it i it started to make me think as well. I guess there you can have a leadership to-do list, right? You can say, All right, these are my responsibilities, but if you're if you are the leader, if you take the next step and you become the leader, then that checklist doesn't stop. It seems like you can always set a checklist aside and say, I'm gonna step away from this right now. But what you're saying, Kathy, is there's no there there's no if you really wanna do this right, if you be the leader. Then there's no separation. That's who you are all the time. Yeah.
speaker-1: Yeah, ex it that's exactly it you nailed it. You and you know, and when at that level, once I became general manager, and I moved around a lot in hospitality. I mean, I moved every few years and for a while every year. And, you know, so you're there for a job, you're there to to do something for the organization. And a lot of times later in life, I was flipping hotels from one brand to the other, and I had a mission that I was showing up on. You know, so it was it was everything of who I was. And I had I was clear on what I wanted. And so I had to go in and build relationships. And believe me, it wasn't easy. There was not like, you know, I didn't figure it all out at the beginning, you know, but also get a ton done. But it was about getting the work done through the people, right? So you're not the only one carrying the burden. They'll help you carry that burden if you show up as a leader and they trust you and they believe in you, they'll follow you. I mean, the old thing, the ad as everybody says is, you know. people follow leaders and they work for managers. And this is exactly true because it's about being a leader who's trusted, admired, respected, that people wanna follow and they follow you willingly. It's not because you have a title, it's because of who you are and how you treat them.
speaker-0: Kathy, I'm gonna back up a little bit, and 'cause I think I got a little bit out of out ahead of myself and I do this all the time. But you have three Bs, right? can you can you share that with us? What are what are the B's?
speaker-1: yes. be the leader or be the general manager, depending on who I'm talking to. Be more human and to be a sounding board.
speaker-0: Perfect. So so we've been talking about what it's like to be a leader rather than just checking off things that that you need to do. I'm assuming, I'm assuming, Kathy, you you learned these in order. I'm assuming that you stepped into this general manager role at the time, but you stepped into this leadership role and you started to embrace this lesson of being the leader. And then there's a part of your your Kathy Kulesha a brain that that the light bulb went off and you said, Now I gotta be more human. So did I get that right? Is that is that the is that the process that you walked through?
speaker-1: Actually, yes, I did learn these in that order. And it was not in a few years. I mean, you know, 30 plus years in hospitality, it was over decades, right? So I mean, yeah, I learned but I did learn them in order and be be more human was the next one. And it even though I was very people oriented, it there was a journey to get to really understand because you evolve as a leader over time. And sometimes you get so caught up in all it's still it's a balance, right? You're trying to find harmony between the work you're trying to do and who you're trying to be. And sometimes you get high enough up in the organization that's not that you don't care about the people, but you're dis more distant from them. Mm-hmm. Right. So they're don't they don't feel like they can't they know you as well because there's layers between you and them. So that's kind of how it led to be more human.
speaker-0: So let me ask you a serious question. I'm listening to this podcast and you're talking about stepping up and you know being this leader, stepping into the leadership role, and there's a there's part of me that's like, okay, I get that. And now you're asking me to be more human. Do I really do I really need to do that, Kathy, or can I just skip that part?
speaker-1: You know what's funny is I think a lot of people do feel that way when they're learning from us. It's like, come on, really, you know, this is just a pain. Like, I'm the boss, right? Why don't they just do what we say? and here's the thing, you don't have to do it, right? You can do you get to choose your adventure. but I will say that the relationships that you have with people, especially I mean, I think most businesses are this way. you need people participating in the work, in the mission. And so if you really want them in the work and in the mission, you it the one of the choices you can make is to be more human because there's many times when the you know what hits the fan and I could have been standing there holding the bag myself. But because I learned to treat people better and learn to connect with them over time, they always had my back. Right. And so as a leader, you need people to show up even when you don't know that you need them to show up sometimes because things happen. So you don't have to be more human. And I realize for some people it's harder because we all have different personality styles and the way we show up. and it's not something you'll you may not ever like doing, but it's a choice. It's a skill. So you get to choose if you want it to become more human or not. That's a
speaker-0: perspective. But if you're really committed to being a leader, then maybe this is the choice that you need to make. So what does being more human look like in everyday practice? w you know, what did it look like for you?
speaker-1: So I have two little kind of examples of this. so so I was at later, I was at the Windham Andover, Massachusetts. yeah, I don't know how I survived all those winters, honestly. I did. And we were converting a Merritt Hotel to a Wyndham hotel. So this is where there's this you're always getting pulled, right? So we have this, you know, budget. We're trying to change all the logos out, you know, change all the quality of stuff out of the hotel. We've got 300 employees. It's an up and running hotel. You don't shut down and do this. It's or you do it while you're open. And so we had been there about three months and I had a right hand person. Her name was Melissa. she was my food and beverage director, right hand person, right brain person. And she kept like telling me, Kathy, dude, you gotta ease up, you know, like you're you're just being too hard on them. You know, and I at that level You know, she would go and hang out with them, go to happy hour and appease them. And they would invite me out. I'm like, no, I'm the general manager. I can't go out and hang out with these managers. I mean, they were a little bit wild, you know, that I'm getting older, more mature. I'm like, no, you just take care of them. She's like, Kathy, come on. So finally I just I finally said, Okay, Melissa, maybe you're right. Maybe I'm just being too mission focused. Let's find something to celebrate the staff meeting. So this hotel had this patio in the center of the hotel, and it happened to be decent weather. So she finds the little teeny tiny increase in customer satisfaction scores that we had, which was hard to maintain in the middle of all this, right? I mean, it was a it was a feat. And so where staff meeting was like, you know, three o'clock in the afternoon. So she has the bartender set up a cart of margaritas and chips and salsa. And then we start the staff meeting. She tells everybody, thank you. She shares the numbers with them. Then here comes the bartender with this cart of margaritas and chips and salsa. And we just sat outside and had some margaritas and chips and salsa. And honestly, to me, I was like, What's the big deal? Right. I mean, great, we did it. But for three months, those managers kept saying, Man, that was so cool. We had those margaritas and chips and salsa. And that was to me, I was like, wow, I really need to get back to my people side of my personality. Cause we, you know, it's not a perfect straight line, right? so that was like a big big kind of like reminder to me. And then there's one other little thing from that property that stands out. So I'm love coffee. And I have to have I have a coffee on the way to work. Well, back in the day. And then I have to go get a cup of coffee and have it in my hand before anybody talks to me. And they knew this, right? They're like, don't talk to Kathy till she's got, you know, the coffee cup in her hand. So I would go drop my stuff in my office and I would go down to the kitchen. And I would get my coffee and I would stand around and talk to people. And I was standing by the toaster with my cup of coffee. And this this server is like, this is what we need. This is what we need. I'm like, I'm like, what? What what what do you need? A does it is a toaster broken? Like, I don't know what she's talking about. And she says, We need a gentle manager that walks around and talks to us. And I was like, Okay, so just keep doing what I'm doing. You know. And I went and talked to my assistant, Karen. I said, you know, dude, this happened. Like, like, I don't even understand. She goes, no, the the old general manager, he never left his office. Ever. And then the managers, when they wanted to talk to him, they would have to come and ask her if he was in a good mood. So I would say, don't do that. Right. Like, like, and then the cool thing is, is that one of the things we think about is how do you have these intentional habits of making things better? So the weird thing was all I wanted was my cup of coffee. But because I was walking around with my coffee from the kitchen to the housekeeping office, I engineering office, I was addicted to coffee, but I was talking to the people. So I got my coffee and they got FaceTime with me.
speaker-0: Yeah. So, you know, Kathy, I guess we learned that being more human doesn't have to be so so hard, right? It's just these small changes I think that that can make a huge difference.
speaker-1: So it was a bad habit. Well, s I'm still drinking coffee, so not that bad. Bad habit, but it made me intentional about, you know, just talking to people, which the previous GM at that hotel, he made it easy. He was unavailable. Yeah. Yeah.
speaker-0: So Kathy, I'm not gonna lie to you. The the next thing I'm gonna say is a quote from you. And I and I don't know how to ask the question, but I want you to tell this story. You had said earlier that some of the problems that we will face we have never seen before, right? And so you talked about leveraging the power of the team. So if you could expand on that or rephrase it for me, I I really think that's an important message for people to hear.
speaker-1: That sounds so smart. When did I say that? You know, so well, here's something interesting. So this is another and because now you've got me thinking about the Windham Andover. And I was only there like a year, right? Because basically we trick convert the hotel and then I got promoted to go into corporate then. So that I'm gonna age myself. Do you remember nineteen ninety nine when that when we were gonna change the year?
speaker-0: Yeah, Y two K, right?
speaker-1: Yeah, Y2K. So we're like, nobody knows what's gonna happen, but we're sure that everything is just gonna come to a screeching halt at midnight. So so we're we're at the hotel and we had made all these plans and we had the all we had was glow sticks. It's ridiculous. You know, so we have we're standing in the lobby because we don't know what to do. But the team was there and Melissa, she didn't have to be there, she's food and beverage director. So we had managers there and we just waited, you know, and we stood there until midnight and then at 10 after we said, okay, the world's not gonna come to an end. I mean, it's little things like that that sometimes you're worried about what might happen, but you're not sure. But I've also had, you know, I mean, think about hotels, all the things that happen in hotels. I've had a guest die in a hotel and I've had to ask, you know, hard things of the chief engineer at that hotel. that he was the one who took care of a lot of the details of, you know, waiting for the look, you didn't expect to get this answer, right? Waiting for the coroner. And the gentleman was from overseas. So we had to wait for the Boston coroner. There was a lot of, you know, things that had to happen and communic and communications with the staff. I mean, you know, it's it's hard on a staff when that happens. And we had to go through a process of I had never had this happen before. Thankfully We have resources to bring somebody in and do some count counseling with my team, but I had never faced that before. but the team just they step up and sometimes they step up in ways that you don't even know that they're capable of, but they're just there with you for the ride. And I think that's I learned that from other leaders who I was like, I would follow that guy off a bridge. And then I learned how to treat people from him. His name was Dave. And then I had people that would follow me into the craziest situations that you have because the hotel business is a crazy business. You know, I know a lot of businesses are, but what sometimes we don't know what's gonna happen in a day. And something sometimes it's really, you know, big things like that that are important and it takes extra time. You have to stop. You have to be willing to stop everything and give people what they need in those moments. And because if you don't, they're carrying that on.
speaker-0: As you know, as I'm listening to this podcast unfold, there's a part of me now that says, Okay, now I get it. Now I understand why I need to be more human because you don't know. You don't know what skills you're gonna need to rely on from somebody else. And, you know, again, if they feel inclined to help you out because last year they got a margarita and some and some chips, then then so be it. That's fantastic. And there
speaker-1: They're gonna remember that. They're gonna remember what happened. They're gonna remember how the experience went and how everybody treated one another and how I treated them and what I did for them to help make it easier and low and lessen the burden of the memories. Cause that's not just a work job. Like somebody dying in a hotel, this is this is something you never forget.
speaker-0: Yeah. Right. So I'm gonna ask you the difference between in your opinion, what's the difference between management and leadership?
speaker-1: So typically a manager is working within the box, right? There's all these things that have to get done, you know, in your work. There's reports, there's projects, there's tasks, and they all seem so very important, and they probably are. And the manager works within that box and they make sure everything's getting done and all the chess pieces are on the board and they're where they're supposed to be, and hopefully things go swimmingly. And they're really focused, I think, a lot when you're managing, you're in the short-term vision of today and this week. The leader, and this used to drive me crazy when I was younger, when I was a manager, the leader thinks outside the box. And oftentimes the leader is the number one rule breaker. So you're the manager trying to follow the rules, the policies, and procedures. And then you got this leader and you think they're crazy because they're like breaking rules and throwing the rules out in but they're looking at the horizon. They're they're looking at how do we go from where we are to where we want to be. So their their view is broader, they're they're willing to take more risks, they're willing to throw the rules out, they're willing to try new things. And they're also, I think, looking at, you know, the people and how can they, you know, have the people follow them. I'll I have a little example for this. I had two My boss, Robert, who I worked for. I hope he doesn't listen to this. He won't. I worked for a number of years. I loved him. He was one of the best bosses I ever had. And then I had a guy named Dave who was his boss. And so Dave and Robert would come around and visit the properties. And this was in Massachusetts, but a different property in Massachusetts. And I remember them coming and they would come and hang out with us and they'd take the team to dinner. And we would go to dinner And Robert, he would be like at dinner. So Kathy, how's your EBITDA? You know, how's your forecast? Did you sandbag your numbers? You know, so and so, how's your, you know, numbers on your housekeeper, housekeepers per, you know, occupied room? You know, and he's asking all these numbers and work and business questions. And then Dave's like, Hey Kathy, how how how's your how's your family? How's your mom and dad? How's their health? How's your little sisters? Don't you have twin sisters? Like he knew this about seventy general managers and then all their managers. So he would roll up his sleeves, hang out, have a cocktail, talk about life and your family. And then Robert's like drilling the forecast. And I think that is a good example of manager and and and you know, leader. Now Robert was a great guy and when I needed him he was there and he would do whatever it took, but he was so in the numbers he sometimes forgot to loosen his tie and just have dinner. But I think that's the best example.
speaker-0: Kathy, again, thanks for sharing. i every time you say something, I I think, my gosh, nobody's ever thought of it this way. Your your perspective is so fantastically unique. Management. Managers need to follow the rules because that's what they that's what they have to do. Leaders sometimes need to break the rules because that's what they need to do. Man, this perspective of you expect the leader. To be able to break the rules when they need to. You that's what makes them a leader. I th I mean that's a fantastic insight. I love it. I love it. So I'm gonna tell you this story. It might not mean anything, but it ba way back in history, and you can Google it, there's this guy, Sir Francis Galton. and he he did this experiment. He basically went out to it's eighteen hundred. So he'd been out to this county fair and they butchered they butchered a a a cow. And they said if anybody can guess how much this cow weighs, you you win it, right? And I guess that's a big d I guess that's a big deal back then. and so they had it up for like three days and people would come I think of this thing hanging for three days with flies and stuff. But people would come by and they would have these guesses, and some of the guesses would be ridiculously low, twelve pounds, fifteen pounds. Some of the guesses obviously would be ridiculously high. and What they found though is at the end of that time period, if you average out all the guesses, it's usually within one or two pounds of the exact weight. Over and over again they would run this experiment. And so it it became known as the wisdom of the crowd. And being more human as a manager and a leader lets you gain the wisdom of the crowd because you're gonna have those people who their idea is just it's it's crazy dumb, right? and it's too extreme one way or too extreme the other way, but when you listen to everybody, usually you can come down to the exact right answer. you know, and so again, just another reason why we need to try to to be more human. Now now what's the last B in the in the list?
speaker-1: To be a sounding board.
speaker-0: What what do you mean by to be a sounding board?
speaker-1: Yeah. So now this is where and this is I think one of the things that this is one of the greatest lessons because I am an extrovert and I'm out solving problems, fixing problems, getting things done. You come to me, you have a question, I give you an answer, I tell you what to go do. I'm fixing everything. So I'm a jack of all trades, a master of none my whole life. Right. And even when emails started, which I think is part of the you know. the challenge of taking people's own ability to make decisions away from them. And I was part of the problem because I gave people answers. You send me an email, I give you an answer, I tell you what to do. Right. And so I'm the one, I'm an extrovert, I'm always talking. This is like shutting up and listening basically. So okay. So yeah. So I I don't know. I it's it's and it's harder for somebody like me, you know, because I'm an extrovert, introverts I think find this a little bit easier. But it is the ability to listen, you know, and the math on it that, you know, we talk about is the eighty twenty rule. But it's the twenty eighty role, right? Okay. Twenty percent talking, eighty percent listening.
speaker-0: So when did this happen to you, Kathy? Did you when did you start knowing the answer, but not providing the answer?
speaker-1: The big lesson for me where I had a major aha moment was I had a guy named Nick working for me. And we had the corporate office, and I was in corporate actually, but the head of the organization was putting all of these different teams through this rigorous team building type training. And one of the things we went through was personality assessments. It was like the first one I'd ever done. I'm honestly was amazing that I did it so late. If I wish I knew then when I you know now. and I we learned this idea of when somebody is uncomfortable, the behavior shifts. And and so they called it, I don't think they meant for us to think about it as like a a tennis racket, but they called it a racket. I don't know where this came from. I just remember the word racket. So they said when somebody's uncomfortable, their behavior shifts and then they they're in their racket. So me and my little team of managers, we had like 30 something people on our team, but four of us went through this together. We called it you're swinging your racket at me. Right. So I would Nick is in my office and he's doing his normal thing where he'd like to just come in, plop down, no idea if I'm busy or not, start just talking to me about stuff. And I was newer in that job and I was running a loyalty program and there was a lot of technology involved. And I was felt like I was in over my head. I don't even know why they gave me the job. And I'm like asking him all these questions. He'd be giving me updates. I'd ask him questions, ask him questions. And I'd ask him question after question after question. And I noticed that he was like going like this, crossing his arm, leaning back, his chairs leaning back. And I'm like paying I'm going, my gosh, it's his racket. And I'm like, Nick, what what what's going on? You know, why are you swinging your racket at me? And he's like, Well, you don't trust me. And I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. What are you talking about? I don't trust you. Of course I trust you. He's like, no, you don't trust me. I'm like, well, what what why? What did I do? He goes, You're asking me question after question after question. You clearly don't trust me. And I was like, Shh. Right? Nick wasn't coming to me for me to ask him questions. And here's the thing: questions are good. I love I think questions are important. But I wasn't asking Nick questions about how to help him. I was asking questions that benefited me. Right. So it was me that I didn't trust, not him. But because I learned to be more curious about his behavior, instead of just like he's being a jerk, which was not, I mean, he was never really a jerk, but you could watch that behavior and be like, this guy's being kind of whatever. I was curious about what happened in that conversation. So I learned that sometimes Nick just needed somebody to come talk to and just share updates with. He didn't need me to fix anything or even understand it. He just needed to talk sometimes he'd come in after that, he would talk it out and I would say almost nothing and he'd be like, Thanks so much for your help. And I'm like, I didn't really do anything, but okay, you're welcome. Yeah.
speaker-0: Yeah. I mean, well, think about what an easy job that is, right? You just give them the time and space and you know they they work the problem out. There's a there's a part of me too that's realizing as you're as you're telling this story that, you know, it takes a certain level of confidence or maturity to have an answer and not have to prove that you know what the answer is. You know, and you know, for me that that last step of being a sounding board is really the culmination. It's it's the final step in actually being a leader, right? And so, you know, all of these things come together. I again I you learned these in order. Is that is that how
speaker-1: No I saw it.
speaker-0: long before you this this last one came, you know, to to be real or to manifest in in your life?
speaker-1: See, it was fairly late. I mean, I was probably in my I mean, I don't even know. I can't do the math on my I mean, you know, I was a I was a vice president of Windham by Request that before Wyndham got bought by a big Timeshare company, not the Timesure Company, but I was a in an executive level position where, you know, the the dynamics changed and I went from running a team of probably fifteen managers and three hundred employees to having two direct reports. And that's a different dynamic. And it wasn't in this chaos of running a hotel. We're sitting in offices, you know. So that it that lesson was important in that environment. So I was you know, that was probably twenty five years ago.
speaker-0: Yeah, I you know, again, this is a a sh shameless self promotion, but that's that's why I love the Prior Learning podcasts and and other podcasts out there. It's a chance for people who have gone through this, who have real experience to share with people who are probably closer to the beginning, the start of their journey than the end. you know, so that's fantastic. so any other things that you want to share about any of the bees?
speaker-1: Think when you're thinking about all this, because it could be like, okay, that's super simple. You know, be the leader, be more human, be the sounding board. You know, I would just reflect on where maybe one person that you have, where it's a relationship that's strained, you know they bring value to the to the organization, to your team, but you also know there's a disconnect with them. And when it comes to the people, it may be. be more human or be a sounding board that's more important at this moment than be the leader, right? Because this is gonna impact that person. So think about what do they need more from you? Do they need to just have a cup of coffee with you? Or you buy them a cup of coffee, you know, and they see you as more of a human being, or do they just need you to listen to them? Maybe we don't know what's going on with people. Right. Right. When they come through the doors. So a lot of people are very private. We don't know everything they're bringing. into work and all the or the stuff that they leave at the door to come serve our customers. And the only way you're going to get to know the burdens they're carrying and the weight they're carrying in their lives is to be willing to hear it. And I know that's hard because some people just want to get the work done, but you have humans walking in the door. You you've got to help the humans. And so either way, be more human or be a sounding word, they actually kind of go neck and neck, right? They're kind of together. so I think just pick one, pick one person. Don't try to Tackle the whole team, pick one person that needs you the most. That relationship is maybe the most broken, and apply one of those two. Yeah.
speaker-0: What's one shift that a busy manager, for example, can make immediately to become the kind of leader that, you know, people actually want to follow?
speaker-1: All right, well, this is gonna be a harder one. but it will be hard to start because it's gonna feel like it's hard to do, but it's not it's really not that hard. All right. So my story about walking around with a cup of coffee, right? Find your thing that you walk around to do. Maybe you make a cup of tea, or maybe there's you go to the copier room to make some copies, or you have some errand that you run every day, one habit that you already have that you're already doing, and then During that, go and stop and talk to one person every day. Not you don't have to talk to everybody, just but talk to a different person every day. Stop by. Now, at first they're gonna look at you like they're am I getting fired? Am I in trouble? Why is so and so like at my cubicle? They're gonna be like weird at first about it because maybe you've never done this, right? And just stop by and just say hello and check in and ask how they're doing and ask, hey, is there any how's it going? You know. How how's how's life? How's your weekend? How's your dog? How's your kid? And then you might say, is there anything I can do to make your life easier? Now at first it's gonna be weird if you've never done this, right? Because it's it may feel awkward, but once they realize that, you know, you're not firing them and and you know, nothing's changing, it will be great. And I think if you're already doing that, then we would elevate yours to implement regular one on ones, which is more of a commitment of time. so I and I will say that I learned from talking to people that that one-on-ones are not in direct report one-on-ones are not something that everybody's fully doing, but I can tell you it helps minimize fires from starting and emergencies because when you're in sync with people, then they know how you think and because and they also know you trust them. And so we were mandated to do one-on-ones with all of our direct reports. So I well, I was a general manager. So I did Anywhere from ten to fifteen one on ones a week. Wow. Yeah. And it was thirty minutes. So it was it was either, you know, five hours to eight hours a week, I did one-on-ones. But here's what happened. All the other interruptions and emergencies and fires have started, all that stopped coming to me because they felt confident to take care of it. So it seems like a big investment of time, but it's a huge time savings on the back end. So if you're already doing the the stop bys, do one on ones. If you're not doing the stop buys, go stop by people and talk to them.
speaker-0: Fantastic advice. Fantastic advice. So if somebody wants to get a hold of you, Kathy, what's the best way to reach you?
speaker-1: you could you can just email me. Yes.
speaker-0: What's the email address?
speaker-1: Yeah, so my first name is K A T H I. So Kathy with an I, K-A-T-T-H-I at Kathyspeaks.com.
speaker-0: All right, so it's K A T H I Kathy at Kathyspeaks.com. That's pretty straightforward. Well
speaker-1: Hit me up on LinkedIn. Linked I'm on LinkedIn too. You can find me there.
speaker-0: I wanna thank you for being a guest today. I wanna I wanna thank you for reading your own introduction. And again, I I encourage if anybody out there is interested in learning more from Kathy, reach out by email. I'm sure that she will be happy to continue the conversation. any last words before we before I say goodbye.
speaker-1: I just think, you know, we're all on this journey and it feels like sometimes we're alone, but there's people all around you that can make the journey easier. And so if every day you just kind of start the morning out thinking about, okay, who can I help? Because, you know, we didn't really bring up the word servant leadership, but when we help others, it comes back. And so I think just start every day with the best intention and try to help one person and just know that we're all in this together and you know, just take care of those people and It'll all be okay.
speaker-0: Well, again, Kathy, thank you. And for our listeners, thank you for listening to the Prior Learning Podcast. We appreciate you spending your time with us today. If our conversation has sparked any ideas for your team or your organization, or if you're looking for support with your training and development needs, we'd love to hear from you to learn more about prior learning, explore training solutions for your workplace, visit prior.com, P-R-Y-O-R.com. Thanks again for listening and we will see you next time.
speaker-1: Welcome to the Prior Learning Podcast. I'm Kathy Kalesha and I am today's guest. During each episode of the Prior Learning Podcast, you'll meet someone like me. They could be a trainer, a subject matter authority, or an expert in their field. We'll talk about HR, wellness, personal development, and the ongoing need for growth, learning, and workplace training. I invite you to join us for practical conversations designed to inform, inspire, and support your professional development. Now, on with the show.
speaker-0: Give us a little background. Where did you start? How did you end up basically where you are? How'd you end up as a as a leadership coach?
speaker-1: Well, I'm gonna give you the short version of it because you know I'm quite seasoned. So I worked in corporate America for thirty years. I worked at hospitality and I grew my way from being literally a bus girl to an executive in corporate America, corpor in a corporate office. And then I ended up getting kicked off the train and, you know, terminated, whatever you want to call it. And so I was and I was in my probably early forties of that time. And I just kind of took some time off and thought, you know what, I've been doing this for a long time and let me just figure out what's next. And I ended up going into wellness for about eight years or so. And then that overlapped with hanging around speakers first at Toastmasters. And then I started meeting speakers. And so I ended up one thing led to another. And I got a coach. And she actually is the one who referred me to prior. And I started training with prior and Cultivating my speaking and training skills.
speaker-0: So I'm guessing when you were a kid in elementary school, this isn't what you wanted to be, right? Everyone's dressed up as like a a fireman or an astronaut and you're walking around with like a little carry-on suitcase and a neck pillow.
speaker-1: N no. Actually, I think I wanted to be a pilot. Okay. Like I remember, but then I did I had to wear glasses. And back then, I don't know what it is now, but back then they're like you have to have 2020 vision. So then when I got to college, I had no idea what I wanted to do. And it took me three years to even declare a major. So yeah. Sl walking around with suitcases and neck pillows and every medication you need for an emergency was not on my bucket list when I was about seven years old.
speaker-0: Yeah. I I guess most people who end up doing this for a living, it's not something that they think about until, you know, a little bit later in life. so let me ask you this. And and you s you mentioned pilot, but if you weren't doing this, what would you like to be doing? What do you think you would be doing?
speaker-1: I think now and it's really just because of where I am in my life, I think I would get more involved in a non profit and just really start me, isn't that what we all want to do? We wanna make a difference in the world. So I think I'd be working for a nonprofit trying to do some good and help people and make the world a better place.
speaker-0: That's a really that's a actually I think that's what we like. That's what we like about you. You know, you come from this place where it's really not about making a buck or it's not it's not a business. It's really about helping people and sewing into them. And that's and that's really kind of why I I'm excited. when I did some research on you, Kathy, everybody's like, you you gotta listen to Kathy. You gotta you gotta l listen to her message. And I know that you you talk a lot about the difference between doing Leadership stuff, for example, versus actually being a leader, or you know, doing managerial stuff versus actually being a manager, or look, even if you're not in the corporate world, maybe doing parenting stuff, right? You're so busy doing parenting stuff that you're not actually a parent. Is is that really what you're talking about when you you talk about the difference between a a to-do list and a to be list?
speaker-1: that's exactly it. It's yeah. It's it's forgetting about like not forgetting, because we have to get things done, right? Everybody has things that need to get done. Now I'm not I'm a only a dog parent, but I'm an amazing aunt. But I have sisters who are parents, and of course they have husbands that come with them. They have things that need to get done. They work off calendars and it's very organized. And, you know, at work, you have a list of things that have to get done. And depending on your role, you may have a lot of things that need to get done. But it is being able to recognize between all of that and then who you are and how you're showing up for your team.
speaker-0: So when did the to be list idea come to you? When did you say, you know, I'm gonna take this to do list one step further? When when did that start being a thing for you?
speaker-1: Well, you I think the benefit of being me now is I get to reflect on when I learned the lesson. And then later in life we get to articulate it. But the idea itself, I had I I was at the Embassy Suites Hotel in Seacaucus, New Jersey. I know sounds very glamorous. and we were in the middle of a ton of issues there, labor labor relations issues. And I was actually was supposed to get transferred and promoted to another property, but they held me back. They brought a new and a new general manager. His name was Ralph. And his first week he sat me down and the way the structure was, it was in a general manager and an assistant general manager and other department heads. And he said, Kathy, what's your career goals? And I was really thinking at that moment, we're in the middle. It was just a mess. And I'm like, now I was in my 20s. So I probably did one of those like Valley Girl things. Well I want to be a general manager, of course. I'm I'm sure I didn't do it that way. but I said I want to be a general manager. And he looked at me and he said, Well, then be the general manager. When you show up every day, be the general manager. And he was the first one that planted that idea in me. And he's probably one of the best mentors I ever had. And it did change the way I walked into that building. I remember the next day. I was parking my car and coming in the back door, you know, for another long day. And when I walked in, the back of the building was this beautiful atrium hotel with glistening glass floors, you know, marble floors and plants everywhere. And I walked in and I was remembering what Ralph said. And so that was the beginning, a little tiny beginning of that seed getting planted and me thinking differently when I walked in and thinking more about the people and how I showed up and who I talk to first and not about grabbing my to do list and getting everything done, little by little.
speaker-0: I I know that eventually this kind of evolved into well, I know that there's there basically three ideas that kind of help shape your own leadership journey. so I'm assuming that this was the impetus for for be the leader, right? Where you started to have this mental shift that that you should start to to be the leader. So how did that end up changing the way that you behaved or interacted with people?
speaker-1: Well, I you know, I did over time it gave me this wider, broader vision or view of the hotel. Now to be honest with I was always a people person. You know, that's my personality style. But I think in some ways it reinforced for me that the people have to come first. Okay. Right. I mean, I had back then I was twenty something, wet behind the ears, grew up in Las Vegas, you know, moved to New Jersey. Everyone on my staff basically spoke Spanish or They were from Haiti, so like a French Creole. And so I had to invest a lot of time in developing those relationships when I first got there as a housekeeping manager. And so I was a people person. I think it reinforced that the people have to come first. And then also it made me think about how you're showing up, not just for the team, but also people above you. Because that was my boss asking me what I want to be and you know what I want to do with my career. And he was new, but I'll be honest with you, I don't know that anybody else above him actually knew what my career aspirations were. I assumed that that's just the path I was on. But I think that's what a lot of us do is we assume what's next, but we haven't had a actual conversation with anyone that can make it happen for us.
speaker-0: So so point one, be the leader. And so I so I wanna ask, is this anything like dressing for the job you want? Is that part of it? Or or is there more to it?
speaker-1: yeah, I think that is definitely part of it. So it's you think about how you show up, how you treat people, how you communicate, right? There's a lot of choices that we get to make, and some of them are not good. Really thinking about the choices you make day in, day out. it's about how you dress, right? It it's all of it, you know. But I think too, there's a lot of like ethical decisions and values we want to have. And, you know, it it you get to decide like which situations do you put yourself in and which do you don't. You you know, and a lot of people I don't think really think about that 'cause we just want to live our lives. But I was I did want to be high up in an organization. Like I knew that in my gut. So that formed my values and my decisions and how I treated people, how I showed up. All of it is under that umbrella of be the leader.
speaker-0: Yeah, that's you know, a as you're talking, it i it started to make me think as well. I guess there you can have a leadership to-do list, right? You can say, All right, these are my responsibilities, but if you're if you are the leader, if you take the next step and you become the leader, then that checklist doesn't stop. It seems like you can always set a checklist aside and say, I'm gonna step away from this right now. But what you're saying, Kathy, is there's no there there's no if you really wanna do this right, if you be the leader. Then there's no separation. That's who you are all the time. Yeah.
speaker-1: Yeah, ex it that's exactly it you nailed it. You and you know, and when at that level, once I became general manager, and I moved around a lot in hospitality. I mean, I moved every few years and for a while every year. And, you know, so you're there for a job, you're there to to do something for the organization. And a lot of times later in life, I was flipping hotels from one brand to the other, and I had a mission that I was showing up on. You know, so it was it was everything of who I was. And I had I was clear on what I wanted. And so I had to go in and build relationships. And believe me, it wasn't easy. There was not like, you know, I didn't figure it all out at the beginning, you know, but also get a ton done. But it was about getting the work done through the people, right? So you're not the only one carrying the burden. They'll help you carry that burden if you show up as a leader and they trust you and they believe in you, they'll follow you. I mean, the old thing, the ad as everybody says is, you know. people follow leaders and they work for managers. And this is exactly true because it's about being a leader who's trusted, admired, respected, that people wanna follow and they follow you willingly. It's not because you have a title, it's because of who you are and how you treat them.
speaker-0: Kathy, I'm gonna back up a little bit, and 'cause I think I got a little bit out of out ahead of myself and I do this all the time. But you have three Bs, right? can you can you share that with us? What are what are the B's?
speaker-1: yes. be the leader or be the general manager, depending on who I'm talking to. Be more human and to be a sounding board.
speaker-0: Perfect. So so we've been talking about what it's like to be a leader rather than just checking off things that that you need to do. I'm assuming, I'm assuming, Kathy, you you learned these in order. I'm assuming that you stepped into this general manager role at the time, but you stepped into this leadership role and you started to embrace this lesson of being the leader. And then there's a part of your your Kathy Kulesha a brain that that the light bulb went off and you said, Now I gotta be more human. So did I get that right? Is that is that the is that the process that you walked through?
speaker-1: Actually, yes, I did learn these in that order. And it was not in a few years. I mean, you know, 30 plus years in hospitality, it was over decades, right? So I mean, yeah, I learned but I did learn them in order and be be more human was the next one. And it even though I was very people oriented, it there was a journey to get to really understand because you evolve as a leader over time. And sometimes you get so caught up in all it's still it's a balance, right? You're trying to find harmony between the work you're trying to do and who you're trying to be. And sometimes you get high enough up in the organization that's not that you don't care about the people, but you're dis more distant from them. Mm-hmm. Right. So they're don't they don't feel like they can't they know you as well because there's layers between you and them. So that's kind of how it led to be more human.
speaker-0: So let me ask you a serious question. I'm listening to this podcast and you're talking about stepping up and you know being this leader, stepping into the leadership role, and there's a there's part of me that's like, okay, I get that. And now you're asking me to be more human. Do I really do I really need to do that, Kathy, or can I just skip that part?
speaker-1: You know what's funny is I think a lot of people do feel that way when they're learning from us. It's like, come on, really, you know, this is just a pain. Like, I'm the boss, right? Why don't they just do what we say? and here's the thing, you don't have to do it, right? You can do you get to choose your adventure. but I will say that the relationships that you have with people, especially I mean, I think most businesses are this way. you need people participating in the work, in the mission. And so if you really want them in the work and in the mission, you it the one of the choices you can make is to be more human because there's many times when the you know what hits the fan and I could have been standing there holding the bag myself. But because I learned to treat people better and learn to connect with them over time, they always had my back. Right. And so as a leader, you need people to show up even when you don't know that you need them to show up sometimes because things happen. So you don't have to be more human. And I realize for some people it's harder because we all have different personality styles and the way we show up. and it's not something you'll you may not ever like doing, but it's a choice. It's a skill. So you get to choose if you want it to become more human or not. That's a
speaker-0: perspective. But if you're really committed to being a leader, then maybe this is the choice that you need to make. So what does being more human look like in everyday practice? w you know, what did it look like for you?
speaker-1: So I have two little kind of examples of this. so so I was at later, I was at the Windham Andover, Massachusetts. yeah, I don't know how I survived all those winters, honestly. I did. And we were converting a Merritt Hotel to a Wyndham hotel. So this is where there's this you're always getting pulled, right? So we have this, you know, budget. We're trying to change all the logos out, you know, change all the quality of stuff out of the hotel. We've got 300 employees. It's an up and running hotel. You don't shut down and do this. It's or you do it while you're open. And so we had been there about three months and I had a right hand person. Her name was Melissa. she was my food and beverage director, right hand person, right brain person. And she kept like telling me, Kathy, dude, you gotta ease up, you know, like you're you're just being too hard on them. You know, and I at that level You know, she would go and hang out with them, go to happy hour and appease them. And they would invite me out. I'm like, no, I'm the general manager. I can't go out and hang out with these managers. I mean, they were a little bit wild, you know, that I'm getting older, more mature. I'm like, no, you just take care of them. She's like, Kathy, come on. So finally I just I finally said, Okay, Melissa, maybe you're right. Maybe I'm just being too mission focused. Let's find something to celebrate the staff meeting. So this hotel had this patio in the center of the hotel, and it happened to be decent weather. So she finds the little teeny tiny increase in customer satisfaction scores that we had, which was hard to maintain in the middle of all this, right? I mean, it was a it was a feat. And so where staff meeting was like, you know, three o'clock in the afternoon. So she has the bartender set up a cart of margaritas and chips and salsa. And then we start the staff meeting. She tells everybody, thank you. She shares the numbers with them. Then here comes the bartender with this cart of margaritas and chips and salsa. And we just sat outside and had some margaritas and chips and salsa. And honestly, to me, I was like, What's the big deal? Right. I mean, great, we did it. But for three months, those managers kept saying, Man, that was so cool. We had those margaritas and chips and salsa. And that was to me, I was like, wow, I really need to get back to my people side of my personality. Cause we, you know, it's not a perfect straight line, right? so that was like a big big kind of like reminder to me. And then there's one other little thing from that property that stands out. So I'm love coffee. And I have to have I have a coffee on the way to work. Well, back in the day. And then I have to go get a cup of coffee and have it in my hand before anybody talks to me. And they knew this, right? They're like, don't talk to Kathy till she's got, you know, the coffee cup in her hand. So I would go drop my stuff in my office and I would go down to the kitchen. And I would get my coffee and I would stand around and talk to people. And I was standing by the toaster with my cup of coffee. And this this server is like, this is what we need. This is what we need. I'm like, I'm like, what? What what what do you need? A does it is a toaster broken? Like, I don't know what she's talking about. And she says, We need a gentle manager that walks around and talks to us. And I was like, Okay, so just keep doing what I'm doing. You know. And I went and talked to my assistant, Karen. I said, you know, dude, this happened. Like, like, I don't even understand. She goes, no, the the old general manager, he never left his office. Ever. And then the managers, when they wanted to talk to him, they would have to come and ask her if he was in a good mood. So I would say, don't do that. Right. Like, like, and then the cool thing is, is that one of the things we think about is how do you have these intentional habits of making things better? So the weird thing was all I wanted was my cup of coffee. But because I was walking around with my coffee from the kitchen to the housekeeping office, I engineering office, I was addicted to coffee, but I was talking to the people. So I got my coffee and they got FaceTime with me.
speaker-0: Yeah. So, you know, Kathy, I guess we learned that being more human doesn't have to be so so hard, right? It's just these small changes I think that that can make a huge difference.
speaker-1: So it was a bad habit. Well, s I'm still drinking coffee, so not that bad. Bad habit, but it made me intentional about, you know, just talking to people, which the previous GM at that hotel, he made it easy. He was unavailable. Yeah. Yeah.
speaker-0: So Kathy, I'm not gonna lie to you. The the next thing I'm gonna say is a quote from you. And I and I don't know how to ask the question, but I want you to tell this story. You had said earlier that some of the problems that we will face we have never seen before, right? And so you talked about leveraging the power of the team. So if you could expand on that or rephrase it for me, I I really think that's an important message for people to hear.
speaker-1: That sounds so smart. When did I say that? You know, so well, here's something interesting. So this is another and because now you've got me thinking about the Windham Andover. And I was only there like a year, right? Because basically we trick convert the hotel and then I got promoted to go into corporate then. So that I'm gonna age myself. Do you remember nineteen ninety nine when that when we were gonna change the year?
speaker-0: Yeah, Y two K, right?
speaker-1: Yeah, Y2K. So we're like, nobody knows what's gonna happen, but we're sure that everything is just gonna come to a screeching halt at midnight. So so we're we're at the hotel and we had made all these plans and we had the all we had was glow sticks. It's ridiculous. You know, so we have we're standing in the lobby because we don't know what to do. But the team was there and Melissa, she didn't have to be there, she's food and beverage director. So we had managers there and we just waited, you know, and we stood there until midnight and then at 10 after we said, okay, the world's not gonna come to an end. I mean, it's little things like that that sometimes you're worried about what might happen, but you're not sure. But I've also had, you know, I mean, think about hotels, all the things that happen in hotels. I've had a guest die in a hotel and I've had to ask, you know, hard things of the chief engineer at that hotel. that he was the one who took care of a lot of the details of, you know, waiting for the look, you didn't expect to get this answer, right? Waiting for the coroner. And the gentleman was from overseas. So we had to wait for the Boston coroner. There was a lot of, you know, things that had to happen and communic and communications with the staff. I mean, you know, it's it's hard on a staff when that happens. And we had to go through a process of I had never had this happen before. Thankfully We have resources to bring somebody in and do some count counseling with my team, but I had never faced that before. but the team just they step up and sometimes they step up in ways that you don't even know that they're capable of, but they're just there with you for the ride. And I think that's I learned that from other leaders who I was like, I would follow that guy off a bridge. And then I learned how to treat people from him. His name was Dave. And then I had people that would follow me into the craziest situations that you have because the hotel business is a crazy business. You know, I know a lot of businesses are, but what sometimes we don't know what's gonna happen in a day. And something sometimes it's really, you know, big things like that that are important and it takes extra time. You have to stop. You have to be willing to stop everything and give people what they need in those moments. And because if you don't, they're carrying that on.
speaker-0: As you know, as I'm listening to this podcast unfold, there's a part of me now that says, Okay, now I get it. Now I understand why I need to be more human because you don't know. You don't know what skills you're gonna need to rely on from somebody else. And, you know, again, if they feel inclined to help you out because last year they got a margarita and some and some chips, then then so be it. That's fantastic. And there
speaker-1: They're gonna remember that. They're gonna remember what happened. They're gonna remember how the experience went and how everybody treated one another and how I treated them and what I did for them to help make it easier and low and lessen the burden of the memories. Cause that's not just a work job. Like somebody dying in a hotel, this is this is something you never forget.
speaker-0: Yeah. Right. So I'm gonna ask you the difference between in your opinion, what's the difference between management and leadership?
speaker-1: So typically a manager is working within the box, right? There's all these things that have to get done, you know, in your work. There's reports, there's projects, there's tasks, and they all seem so very important, and they probably are. And the manager works within that box and they make sure everything's getting done and all the chess pieces are on the board and they're where they're supposed to be, and hopefully things go swimmingly. And they're really focused, I think, a lot when you're managing, you're in the short-term vision of today and this week. The leader, and this used to drive me crazy when I was younger, when I was a manager, the leader thinks outside the box. And oftentimes the leader is the number one rule breaker. So you're the manager trying to follow the rules, the policies, and procedures. And then you got this leader and you think they're crazy because they're like breaking rules and throwing the rules out in but they're looking at the horizon. They're they're looking at how do we go from where we are to where we want to be. So their their view is broader, they're they're willing to take more risks, they're willing to throw the rules out, they're willing to try new things. And they're also, I think, looking at, you know, the people and how can they, you know, have the people follow them. I'll I have a little example for this. I had two My boss, Robert, who I worked for. I hope he doesn't listen to this. He won't. I worked for a number of years. I loved him. He was one of the best bosses I ever had. And then I had a guy named Dave who was his boss. And so Dave and Robert would come around and visit the properties. And this was in Massachusetts, but a different property in Massachusetts. And I remember them coming and they would come and hang out with us and they'd take the team to dinner. And we would go to dinner And Robert, he would be like at dinner. So Kathy, how's your EBITDA? You know, how's your forecast? Did you sandbag your numbers? You know, so and so, how's your, you know, numbers on your housekeeper, housekeepers per, you know, occupied room? You know, and he's asking all these numbers and work and business questions. And then Dave's like, Hey Kathy, how how how's your how's your family? How's your mom and dad? How's their health? How's your little sisters? Don't you have twin sisters? Like he knew this about seventy general managers and then all their managers. So he would roll up his sleeves, hang out, have a cocktail, talk about life and your family. And then Robert's like drilling the forecast. And I think that is a good example of manager and and and you know, leader. Now Robert was a great guy and when I needed him he was there and he would do whatever it took, but he was so in the numbers he sometimes forgot to loosen his tie and just have dinner. But I think that's the best example.
speaker-0: Kathy, again, thanks for sharing. i every time you say something, I I think, my gosh, nobody's ever thought of it this way. Your your perspective is so fantastically unique. Management. Managers need to follow the rules because that's what they that's what they have to do. Leaders sometimes need to break the rules because that's what they need to do. Man, this perspective of you expect the leader. To be able to break the rules when they need to. You that's what makes them a leader. I th I mean that's a fantastic insight. I love it. I love it. So I'm gonna tell you this story. It might not mean anything, but it ba way back in history, and you can Google it, there's this guy, Sir Francis Galton. and he he did this experiment. He basically went out to it's eighteen hundred. So he'd been out to this county fair and they butchered they butchered a a a cow. And they said if anybody can guess how much this cow weighs, you you win it, right? And I guess that's a big d I guess that's a big deal back then. and so they had it up for like three days and people would come I think of this thing hanging for three days with flies and stuff. But people would come by and they would have these guesses, and some of the guesses would be ridiculously low, twelve pounds, fifteen pounds. Some of the guesses obviously would be ridiculously high. and What they found though is at the end of that time period, if you average out all the guesses, it's usually within one or two pounds of the exact weight. Over and over again they would run this experiment. And so it it became known as the wisdom of the crowd. And being more human as a manager and a leader lets you gain the wisdom of the crowd because you're gonna have those people who their idea is just it's it's crazy dumb, right? and it's too extreme one way or too extreme the other way, but when you listen to everybody, usually you can come down to the exact right answer. you know, and so again, just another reason why we need to try to to be more human. Now now what's the last B in the in the list?
speaker-1: To be a sounding board.
speaker-0: What what do you mean by to be a sounding board?
speaker-1: Yeah. So now this is where and this is I think one of the things that this is one of the greatest lessons because I am an extrovert and I'm out solving problems, fixing problems, getting things done. You come to me, you have a question, I give you an answer, I tell you what to go do. I'm fixing everything. So I'm a jack of all trades, a master of none my whole life. Right. And even when emails started, which I think is part of the you know. the challenge of taking people's own ability to make decisions away from them. And I was part of the problem because I gave people answers. You send me an email, I give you an answer, I tell you what to do. Right. And so I'm the one, I'm an extrovert, I'm always talking. This is like shutting up and listening basically. So okay. So yeah. So I I don't know. I it's it's and it's harder for somebody like me, you know, because I'm an extrovert, introverts I think find this a little bit easier. But it is the ability to listen, you know, and the math on it that, you know, we talk about is the eighty twenty rule. But it's the twenty eighty role, right? Okay. Twenty percent talking, eighty percent listening.
speaker-0: So when did this happen to you, Kathy? Did you when did you start knowing the answer, but not providing the answer?
speaker-1: The big lesson for me where I had a major aha moment was I had a guy named Nick working for me. And we had the corporate office, and I was in corporate actually, but the head of the organization was putting all of these different teams through this rigorous team building type training. And one of the things we went through was personality assessments. It was like the first one I'd ever done. I'm honestly was amazing that I did it so late. If I wish I knew then when I you know now. and I we learned this idea of when somebody is uncomfortable, the behavior shifts. And and so they called it, I don't think they meant for us to think about it as like a a tennis racket, but they called it a racket. I don't know where this came from. I just remember the word racket. So they said when somebody's uncomfortable, their behavior shifts and then they they're in their racket. So me and my little team of managers, we had like 30 something people on our team, but four of us went through this together. We called it you're swinging your racket at me. Right. So I would Nick is in my office and he's doing his normal thing where he'd like to just come in, plop down, no idea if I'm busy or not, start just talking to me about stuff. And I was newer in that job and I was running a loyalty program and there was a lot of technology involved. And I was felt like I was in over my head. I don't even know why they gave me the job. And I'm like asking him all these questions. He'd be giving me updates. I'd ask him questions, ask him questions. And I'd ask him question after question after question. And I noticed that he was like going like this, crossing his arm, leaning back, his chairs leaning back. And I'm like paying I'm going, my gosh, it's his racket. And I'm like, Nick, what what what's going on? You know, why are you swinging your racket at me? And he's like, Well, you don't trust me. And I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. What are you talking about? I don't trust you. Of course I trust you. He's like, no, you don't trust me. I'm like, well, what what why? What did I do? He goes, You're asking me question after question after question. You clearly don't trust me. And I was like, Shh. Right? Nick wasn't coming to me for me to ask him questions. And here's the thing: questions are good. I love I think questions are important. But I wasn't asking Nick questions about how to help him. I was asking questions that benefited me. Right. So it was me that I didn't trust, not him. But because I learned to be more curious about his behavior, instead of just like he's being a jerk, which was not, I mean, he was never really a jerk, but you could watch that behavior and be like, this guy's being kind of whatever. I was curious about what happened in that conversation. So I learned that sometimes Nick just needed somebody to come talk to and just share updates with. He didn't need me to fix anything or even understand it. He just needed to talk sometimes he'd come in after that, he would talk it out and I would say almost nothing and he'd be like, Thanks so much for your help. And I'm like, I didn't really do anything, but okay, you're welcome. Yeah.
speaker-0: Yeah. I mean, well, think about what an easy job that is, right? You just give them the time and space and you know they they work the problem out. There's a there's a part of me too that's realizing as you're as you're telling this story that, you know, it takes a certain level of confidence or maturity to have an answer and not have to prove that you know what the answer is. You know, and you know, for me that that last step of being a sounding board is really the culmination. It's it's the final step in actually being a leader, right? And so, you know, all of these things come together. I again I you learned these in order. Is that is that how
speaker-1: No I saw it.
speaker-0: long before you this this last one came, you know, to to be real or to manifest in in your life?
speaker-1: See, it was fairly late. I mean, I was probably in my I mean, I don't even know. I can't do the math on my I mean, you know, I was a I was a vice president of Windham by Request that before Wyndham got bought by a big Timeshare company, not the Timesure Company, but I was a in an executive level position where, you know, the the dynamics changed and I went from running a team of probably fifteen managers and three hundred employees to having two direct reports. And that's a different dynamic. And it wasn't in this chaos of running a hotel. We're sitting in offices, you know. So that it that lesson was important in that environment. So I was you know, that was probably twenty five years ago.
speaker-0: Yeah, I you know, again, this is a a sh shameless self promotion, but that's that's why I love the Prior Learning podcasts and and other podcasts out there. It's a chance for people who have gone through this, who have real experience to share with people who are probably closer to the beginning, the start of their journey than the end. you know, so that's fantastic. so any other things that you want to share about any of the bees?
speaker-1: Think when you're thinking about all this, because it could be like, okay, that's super simple. You know, be the leader, be more human, be the sounding board. You know, I would just reflect on where maybe one person that you have, where it's a relationship that's strained, you know they bring value to the to the organization, to your team, but you also know there's a disconnect with them. And when it comes to the people, it may be. be more human or be a sounding board that's more important at this moment than be the leader, right? Because this is gonna impact that person. So think about what do they need more from you? Do they need to just have a cup of coffee with you? Or you buy them a cup of coffee, you know, and they see you as more of a human being, or do they just need you to listen to them? Maybe we don't know what's going on with people. Right. Right. When they come through the doors. So a lot of people are very private. We don't know everything they're bringing. into work and all the or the stuff that they leave at the door to come serve our customers. And the only way you're going to get to know the burdens they're carrying and the weight they're carrying in their lives is to be willing to hear it. And I know that's hard because some people just want to get the work done, but you have humans walking in the door. You you've got to help the humans. And so either way, be more human or be a sounding word, they actually kind of go neck and neck, right? They're kind of together. so I think just pick one, pick one person. Don't try to Tackle the whole team, pick one person that needs you the most. That relationship is maybe the most broken, and apply one of those two. Yeah.
speaker-0: What's one shift that a busy manager, for example, can make immediately to become the kind of leader that, you know, people actually want to follow?
speaker-1: All right, well, this is gonna be a harder one. but it will be hard to start because it's gonna feel like it's hard to do, but it's not it's really not that hard. All right. So my story about walking around with a cup of coffee, right? Find your thing that you walk around to do. Maybe you make a cup of tea, or maybe there's you go to the copier room to make some copies, or you have some errand that you run every day, one habit that you already have that you're already doing, and then During that, go and stop and talk to one person every day. Not you don't have to talk to everybody, just but talk to a different person every day. Stop by. Now, at first they're gonna look at you like they're am I getting fired? Am I in trouble? Why is so and so like at my cubicle? They're gonna be like weird at first about it because maybe you've never done this, right? And just stop by and just say hello and check in and ask how they're doing and ask, hey, is there any how's it going? You know. How how's how's life? How's your weekend? How's your dog? How's your kid? And then you might say, is there anything I can do to make your life easier? Now at first it's gonna be weird if you've never done this, right? Because it's it may feel awkward, but once they realize that, you know, you're not firing them and and you know, nothing's changing, it will be great. And I think if you're already doing that, then we would elevate yours to implement regular one on ones, which is more of a commitment of time. so I and I will say that I learned from talking to people that that one-on-ones are not in direct report one-on-ones are not something that everybody's fully doing, but I can tell you it helps minimize fires from starting and emergencies because when you're in sync with people, then they know how you think and because and they also know you trust them. And so we were mandated to do one-on-ones with all of our direct reports. So I well, I was a general manager. So I did Anywhere from ten to fifteen one on ones a week. Wow. Yeah. And it was thirty minutes. So it was it was either, you know, five hours to eight hours a week, I did one-on-ones. But here's what happened. All the other interruptions and emergencies and fires have started, all that stopped coming to me because they felt confident to take care of it. So it seems like a big investment of time, but it's a huge time savings on the back end. So if you're already doing the the stop bys, do one on ones. If you're not doing the stop buys, go stop by people and talk to them.
speaker-0: Fantastic advice. Fantastic advice. So if somebody wants to get a hold of you, Kathy, what's the best way to reach you?
speaker-1: you could you can just email me. Yes.
speaker-0: What's the email address?
speaker-1: Yeah, so my first name is K A T H I. So Kathy with an I, K-A-T-T-H-I at Kathyspeaks.com.
speaker-0: All right, so it's K A T H I Kathy at Kathyspeaks.com. That's pretty straightforward. Well
speaker-1: Hit me up on LinkedIn. Linked I'm on LinkedIn too. You can find me there.
speaker-0: I wanna thank you for being a guest today. I wanna I wanna thank you for reading your own introduction. And again, I I encourage if anybody out there is interested in learning more from Kathy, reach out by email. I'm sure that she will be happy to continue the conversation. any last words before we before I say goodbye.
speaker-1: I just think, you know, we're all on this journey and it feels like sometimes we're alone, but there's people all around you that can make the journey easier. And so if every day you just kind of start the morning out thinking about, okay, who can I help? Because, you know, we didn't really bring up the word servant leadership, but when we help others, it comes back. And so I think just start every day with the best intention and try to help one person and just know that we're all in this together and you know, just take care of those people and It'll all be okay.
speaker-0: Well, again, Kathy, thank you. And for our listeners, thank you for listening to the Prior Learning Podcast. We appreciate you spending your time with us today. If our conversation has sparked any ideas for your team or your organization, or if you're looking for support with your training and development needs, we'd love to hear from you to learn more about prior learning, explore training solutions for your workplace, visit prior.com, P-R-Y-O-R.com. Thanks again for listening and we will see you next time.
