WEBVTT
00:00:24.640 --> 00:00:27.519
Welcome to the latest episode of the Pokemon Panel Podcast.
00:00:27.600 --> 00:00:29.519
My guest today is Norell Fraser.
00:00:29.760 --> 00:00:38.719
She spent 27 years with Victoria Police, including 15 as a detective tackling high-profile crimes across homicide squad, missing persons unit, and rape squad.
00:00:38.880 --> 00:00:47.280
Her meticulous and compassionate work brought her face to face with complex investigations until 2012, when an unexpected diagnosis changed her career path.
00:00:47.439 --> 00:00:55.840
Today she's an international speaker, media commentator, and podcaster, and has an intriguing and powerful documentary coming out on the 5th of November called The Police Woman.
00:00:55.920 --> 00:01:00.159
I'm very excited to welcome to the Popcorn Panel podcast, Norelle Fraser.
00:01:00.240 --> 00:01:01.679
Good morning, good afternoon, good evening.
00:01:01.759 --> 00:01:02.640
How are you?
00:01:03.119 --> 00:01:04.799
We're all over the ship, aren't we?
00:01:06.000 --> 00:01:09.120
From me, it's good afternoon, but to you it's good morning.
00:01:09.200 --> 00:01:22.239
But I gotta say, Alex, I love, I love the the title, the popcorn panel, because yesterday, where I was at one of the screenings, all I could smell all day was popcorn.
00:01:22.640 --> 00:01:23.200
I'm so sorry.
00:01:26.959 --> 00:01:34.879
But I don't know if the popcorn panel podcast was the best name because the alliteration of those peas always stuffs me up when I'm like pop pop pop.
00:01:35.599 --> 00:01:36.480
Anyway, we've got there.
00:01:38.319 --> 00:01:45.840
You've experienced you experienced a lot in 27 years in the police service, and the film covers some of that, but I imagine there's a million more things that you went through.
00:01:46.000 --> 00:01:48.719
Can you tell me a little bit about your policing career?
00:01:50.239 --> 00:01:53.760
Uh I loved 98% of it.
00:01:54.079 --> 00:02:01.519
I I started thinking about it when I was about 26, I suppose.
00:02:01.680 --> 00:02:07.920
I'd um traveled around Australia in a combi with a couple of girlfriends and we just had a ball.
00:02:08.080 --> 00:02:18.479
But when I got back, something sort of changed, I don't know how it happened, but I started counseling uh with Lifeline.
00:02:18.639 --> 00:02:29.599
I did a course and got through, and so I started counseling, uh, telephone counseling, but there was something about the people that rang Lifeline.
00:02:29.840 --> 00:02:34.319
I just I wanted to get to those people before they rang Lifeline.
00:02:34.400 --> 00:02:38.960
And policing, if you know, I was a black sheep in our family.
00:02:39.280 --> 00:02:46.479
It had never been even, I don't have any family members or anything, but I just loved the idea of helping people.
00:02:46.560 --> 00:02:52.560
And to me, policing was that that gap that I thought I could uh fit into.
00:02:52.800 --> 00:03:08.240
So I started, uh I went out to the academy, and at the time I was really fit, and I I didn't actually, I wasn't trying to get fit to join policing, I just wanted to get fit, and so you know how sometimes things just I don't know, they just fall into place.
00:03:08.400 --> 00:03:14.879
I was fit, I went to the academy, and I've got to say I found the academy very difficult.
00:03:15.039 --> 00:03:18.319
I I am not academically gifted.
00:03:18.639 --> 00:03:27.439
So at 27, like I left I left home, I left school when I was 15.
00:03:27.599 --> 00:03:47.280
So I had never studied, I didn't know how to study, and it was boy, I had to be keen because I had to work very, very hard at it academically out at the academy, but certainly the physical side uh I'd have to say I pretty much breezed through.
00:03:47.520 --> 00:03:51.759
So uh then I went to uh my training station was St Kilda.
00:03:52.479 --> 00:03:55.919
Talk about, you know, from the frying pan into the fire.
00:03:56.159 --> 00:03:59.599
I I'd never been exposed to that sort of life, Alex.
00:03:59.680 --> 00:04:03.680
Like I come from a very, oh, let's call it suburban.
00:04:04.080 --> 00:04:06.879
Mum and dad live in suburban Melbourne.
00:04:07.120 --> 00:04:24.560
I'd never really I'd never experienced anything like what I saw at St Kilda, and that was a lot of sex workers, a lot of men that were what we used to call gutter crawlers, looking for women, drugs, homelessness.
00:04:24.800 --> 00:04:31.360
Oh, it was just an eye-opener for me, but I knew I had found my calling.
00:04:31.600 --> 00:04:33.920
So I did what was it?
00:04:34.560 --> 00:04:55.040
I went to St Kilda was my training station, then I went to Carlton, that was my first gazetted station, and I was there for about five years, and then I had a sergeant that suggested he thought that I might be really suited to working with victims of crime like sex offences, child abuse, etc.
00:04:55.439 --> 00:05:01.279
And that's where my world opened up to something that I just knew this is me.
00:05:01.360 --> 00:05:14.720
And I went to it was called community policing squads in those days, but we dealt with people that had been abused sexually, physically, domestic violence, all that sort of, all that sort of stuff.
00:05:14.879 --> 00:05:16.079
And I just loved it.
00:05:16.160 --> 00:05:19.040
And from there I went to sex crimes.
00:05:19.120 --> 00:05:20.879
I went, sorry, I went to the rape squad.
00:05:20.959 --> 00:05:31.439
I became a detective because then I thought I really want to work, and this is nothing against the CPS or whatever, but I wanted to work on the big jobs.
00:05:31.680 --> 00:05:33.279
I just sort of, isn't it funny?
00:05:33.439 --> 00:05:39.600
Like I just wanted to work with people that had been so traumatized.
00:05:40.319 --> 00:05:42.399
I just I was drawn to it.
00:05:42.480 --> 00:05:46.800
I just sort of felt I was the right sort of personality, the right sort of person.
00:05:47.439 --> 00:05:55.920
And so I was at the rape squad, child exploitation, sex crimes, then I went to homicide, missing persons unit.
00:05:56.399 --> 00:06:01.839
And then I went back to uh socket, it's called sex offense and child abuse unit.
00:06:02.160 --> 00:06:06.800
And 25 years it just sort of all caught up with me, to be honest.
00:06:07.040 --> 00:06:12.240
It I had no idea that I was so mentally unwell.
00:06:12.319 --> 00:06:18.319
I just thought I was very tired, just a bit, you know, I don't know, overworked.
00:06:18.959 --> 00:06:25.199
And yeah, I got diagnosed with um post-traumatic stress disorder or PTSI as we're trying to call it.
00:06:25.439 --> 00:06:29.600
But it was, it just sort of, I thought it came out of nowhere.
00:06:29.680 --> 00:06:35.759
But you know, when I started looking back, it was as you know, obvious, obvious as the nose on the face, really.
00:06:36.000 --> 00:06:45.680
But I put my head in the sand thinking, well, I didn't know all also I was uneducated about mental illness, as most people were back then.
00:06:46.000 --> 00:06:53.519
But you know, one door closed, another door opened, and uh, you know, I it hasn't been easy, don't get me wrong.
00:06:53.680 --> 00:07:19.360
I've um, you know, I've been through a lot and I've been, I certainly, and I don't mind sharing this, I've never ever felt like ending it all, but I was very, very depressed, very sick, mentally sick, mentally unwell, and did a some courses and look at me, I I mean, I cannot believe where I am, to be honest.
00:07:20.079 --> 00:07:30.560
I love that for you so much because I think you mentioned the the trauma of the the clients, the customers, and the people that you were servicing, but that does have a flow on effect.
00:07:30.639 --> 00:07:40.160
You know, um in the film it's very cleverly presented by water droplets dripping into a jar that's every every time you attend a scene or deal with someone, it it one would drop and it overflows.
00:07:40.319 --> 00:07:45.680
Uh interestingly, I spoke to a mime artist yesterday and I said to him, I'm also former police officer.
00:07:45.759 --> 00:07:52.000
I did 14 years before I left and had a very clear catalyst that one day I saw a picture of a deceased child and I was just done.
00:07:52.160 --> 00:07:53.360
And I was like, I need to go.
00:07:53.439 --> 00:07:55.680
I don't want to know what people do anymore, and I had to leave.
00:07:55.839 --> 00:07:58.480
But I said to him, I'm quite a contained person.
00:07:58.560 --> 00:07:59.519
I think it's police training.
00:07:59.600 --> 00:08:00.480
I don't know if you'd agree.
00:08:00.560 --> 00:08:06.879
Like I stand very rigid and I'm I don't dance because I'm too self-conscious and I'm quite, you know, an in my head person.
00:08:06.959 --> 00:08:07.759
I'm not in my body.
00:08:07.839 --> 00:08:15.120
I do lots of talking rather than, you know, use my body to express, you know, you know, like I don't talk like this, and you know, like a mime artist would do.
00:08:15.279 --> 00:08:18.399
And I think because we're trained not to respond and be emotional, right?
00:08:18.480 --> 00:08:19.439
When you go to these scenes.
00:08:19.519 --> 00:08:25.439
And you mentioned in this film that you have you've got here, uh a sergeant said you just suck it up and don't talk about it and get on with it.
00:08:25.519 --> 00:08:27.600
Like there was no health and welfare when you're in the job.
00:08:27.759 --> 00:08:32.879
Did that turn up along the way, or was it always just you just have to suck it up?
00:08:33.519 --> 00:08:36.399
Uh that was pretty much my whole career.
00:08:36.639 --> 00:08:39.039
It started to get a bit better.
00:08:39.279 --> 00:08:49.919
It became started to get talked about more probably in the I don't know, let's say mid-2000s.
00:08:50.240 --> 00:09:05.759
I did uh a couple of years before I yeah, I went into I went up to the country for a couple of years and before I went back to socket and just on the div van again, it was unbelievable, it was fantastic.
00:09:06.159 --> 00:09:21.360
But that's when it started to become more talked about, more spoken about, but it was still something very I don't know, I felt very it was something you didn't talk about.
00:09:21.440 --> 00:09:31.600
It was shame, it was if anybody had gone off sick, like that's what they used to call it, gone off sick, you know, they were sort of made fun of.
00:09:31.759 --> 00:09:33.679
They were weak, unable to cope.
00:09:34.080 --> 00:09:37.919
You know, they could never cope, you know, that's sort of really cruel stuff.
00:09:38.080 --> 00:09:44.559
And I think we be got we became so much better in those in the early 2000s.
00:09:44.879 --> 00:10:07.039
But even by the time I was diagnosed in 2012, it was there was there still is, but there was a huge stigma, and so much so that I didn't want to tell anybody, and in fact, I didn't, I couldn't believe it, and I didn't accept that I was very unwell, and that probably put me back a fair while as well.
00:10:07.279 --> 00:10:16.879
Just to get over anything, you need to, any sickness, you need to accept this is what it is, and I need to do some work to get over it.
00:10:17.120 --> 00:10:27.600
And it took me a long time to accept, even just accept that I was so unwell because of the the shame, the humiliation, the embarrassment.
00:10:27.759 --> 00:10:32.320
You know, I used to lie about why I was off work for so long.
00:10:32.399 --> 00:10:37.840
I I just couldn't face the fact that I was so unwell.
00:10:38.000 --> 00:10:39.840
It was just humiliating.
00:10:40.480 --> 00:10:43.440
Was was there a catalyst for you in seeking help?
00:10:44.960 --> 00:11:00.720
Looking back, look, yes, I suppose there was I suppose in May of 2012, I had done, you know, I I'd worked on a lot of major investigations and I'd seen a lot of things.
00:11:00.879 --> 00:11:06.480
And like you said before, your catalyst was about a deceased baby.
00:11:07.039 --> 00:11:15.360
Any job that has that involves children is it just takes it to another level, rightly or wrongly.
00:11:15.519 --> 00:11:23.600
You just can't if you if you've got any ounce of compassion or care, you know, that's pretty hard stuff to deal with.
00:11:23.919 --> 00:11:27.919
And I think I had it was building up.
00:11:28.080 --> 00:11:43.120
I'd I'd had a lot of dealings with deceased children, but the cruelty, I I saw a lot of cruelty in my role with the with Socket, the sex offense and child abuse team.
00:11:43.679 --> 00:11:50.559
And I think looking back, that was probably the it was building pretty fast by then.
00:11:50.960 --> 00:12:11.759
But the catalyst really, I think, was when I did a warrant on a pedophile, and I'd done, I don't know, maybe 50, 6, I don't know how many, but it was a lot of not my own jobs, but I was involved in a lot of investigations to do with child abuse material.
00:12:11.919 --> 00:12:22.879
And this particular one in May of 2012, we did a warrant on this pedophile, and he was just he was just a young, he looked so normal.
00:12:23.039 --> 00:12:27.919
He was getting married, his partner's there, and I'm thinking, we've got the wrong house.
00:12:28.080 --> 00:12:30.320
This is how have we done this?
00:12:30.559 --> 00:12:35.120
And I just said, Look, can I just I need to have a quick look at your computer?
00:12:35.360 --> 00:12:38.320
I was almost going to apologise, you know.
00:12:38.399 --> 00:12:44.879
I'm so sorry, but when I looked at his computer, poor boy, we hadn't got the wrong house.
00:12:44.960 --> 00:12:56.720
And so for two days, I had to, in those days, back in 2012, what we had to do was view all the child abuse material and grade it.
00:12:56.879 --> 00:13:11.360
You know, let's say from one to five, even one is terrible, but this stuff was off the scale, and I did it for two days, and I remember having a response, a reaction that I had no control over.
00:13:11.600 --> 00:13:13.440
It had never happened before.
00:13:13.679 --> 00:13:29.039
And I so for two days I'm in this special room uh viewing this child porn child abuse material, and all of a sudden I just went and I put my hand, I gasped and I thought I was going to be sick.
00:13:29.440 --> 00:13:32.399
And I thought, wow, where did that come from?
00:13:32.639 --> 00:13:43.200
And so I went downstairs and I had a cup of coffee, thinking I could, you know, I and I soldiered on, you know, like suck it up, Norrell.
00:13:43.279 --> 00:13:51.679
You know, this is my and I used to think somebody has to look at this stuff because if somebody doesn't look at it, the people get away with it.
00:13:52.720 --> 00:13:54.960
So I did that for two days.
00:13:55.840 --> 00:14:15.200
And I think looking back, that was probably and they were videos, 1700 child abuse videos, and that wasn't it wasn't photos, and so it was sound, it was voices, it uh it was just horrendous.
00:14:15.600 --> 00:14:32.480
And that was let's say on the Monday and Tuesday, on the Wednesday, I had a committal for a rape, and I was the informant, and I at court I had a lot of trouble getting the informant to court.
00:14:32.559 --> 00:14:39.120
She was a young 16-year-old girl, and she'd been raped by a man and his son, and I couldn't get her to court.
00:14:39.360 --> 00:14:47.679
Well, it was difficult getting her to court, and I sort of almost had to drag her, but I didn't, you know, I put my arm around her and because she's saying I can't do this, Norrell.
00:14:48.000 --> 00:14:55.440
Come on, you know, because if I can't get her to court and give evidence, again, it gets away with it.
00:14:55.519 --> 00:15:01.840
They get away with it, and I I just couldn't bear that thought because this had damaged this young girl so much.
00:15:02.000 --> 00:15:21.759
Anyway, so I get her to court, we're in court, I'm the informant, I'm behind her, I'm listening to the defense, two two defence barristers act really, oh, they were giving her a terrible time, and she was really being hammered by them, and she was really upset.
00:15:21.840 --> 00:15:31.919
And I can remember thinking to myself, this is the part I remember, and pardon me, I have to swear here, but I I said to myself, you know, this is bullshit.
00:15:32.159 --> 00:15:38.480
This young girl, it was like she was being raped all over again, and I felt really responsible for that.
00:15:38.720 --> 00:15:46.720
And the next thing I remember is being over at a court at the court opposite the the uh sorry at a coffee shop opposite the court.
00:15:47.200 --> 00:15:55.039
And I'm having a coffee, and clearly I'm in La La Land, and the court staff came over and said, What are you doing here, Norrell?
00:15:55.759 --> 00:15:57.919
And I thought, what am I doing here?
00:15:58.159 --> 00:16:05.759
I'm I'm running a committal, I've got the victim, I've got witnesses to organise, I've got exhibits to present.
00:16:05.919 --> 00:16:12.080
Uh, you know, it's a it's a really responsible position, and I'm in bloody la la land across at the coffee shop.
00:16:12.240 --> 00:16:16.799
Anyway, I found out later that that was an amnesia event.
00:16:16.960 --> 00:16:21.840
And so what had happened was that my mind just shut down.
00:16:22.080 --> 00:16:24.159
I just couldn't deal with it anymore.
00:16:24.480 --> 00:16:34.480
So that week was the real catalyst, and I struggled on thinking, you know, I can get through this, I'm just tired or whatever.
00:16:34.720 --> 00:16:44.799
And I hung on for about three or four months, and then one Friday afternoon, this young girl came into the the office with her mum.
00:16:45.120 --> 00:16:52.159
She something had happened at school, she'd been like sexually assaulted, and I think she was about 14 or 15.
00:16:52.799 --> 00:17:01.039
And I can remember sitting in the chair listening and thinking, this is terrible, but thinking to myself, you know what?
00:17:01.759 --> 00:17:04.559
I don't give a shit what happened to you.
00:17:05.519 --> 00:17:10.160
And I I remember thinking that that was just so unmeaning.
00:17:10.319 --> 00:17:13.039
I just lost all compassion, all care.
00:17:13.200 --> 00:17:13.920
I didn't care.
00:17:14.799 --> 00:17:17.519
And that's when I knew there was something very wrong.
00:17:17.920 --> 00:17:25.279
And so I went to the doctor on the Monday, and within minutes he diagnosed me with PTSI.
00:17:26.160 --> 00:17:31.599
And I never ever set foot in a police station again.
00:17:32.640 --> 00:17:35.279
Wow, can you tell me what the acronym for PTSI is?
00:17:35.359 --> 00:17:36.640
Because we all know it as PTSD.
00:17:36.720 --> 00:17:39.039
What's the PSTSI transition that you mentioned?
00:17:39.440 --> 00:17:42.000
We're trying to change the the thought.
00:17:42.160 --> 00:17:51.200
It's post-traumatic stress disorder is has a very negative, that word disorder has a very negative connotation.
00:17:51.359 --> 00:18:04.880
So what the powers it be are trying to change is to PTSI, so post-traumatic stress injury, so that that negativity isn't in in that acronym.
00:18:05.119 --> 00:18:21.119
And I and I I mean I'm so used to saying PTSD, and I so I go between PTSI and PTSD, but I I think that's really important that a disorder does have you know some pretty negative connotations to it.
00:18:21.279 --> 00:18:23.839
So that's why we're trying to call it PTSI.
00:18:24.000 --> 00:18:26.799
It's an injury, just like a you know, broken leg.
00:18:27.279 --> 00:18:31.359
Absolutely, and no one came into the force with that in relation to their job.
00:18:31.440 --> 00:18:39.920
And so it is, you know, and in your case, it just sounded like you'd absolutely reached breaking point and just complete overload and you know couldn't function anymore.
00:18:40.079 --> 00:18:47.519
What was it like the first time you stepped out into the community after you'd your career had finished, you'd you'd resigned, and you walked out into the community as a civilian?
00:18:47.599 --> 00:18:48.880
What did that feel like?
00:18:49.920 --> 00:18:50.240
Terrible.
00:18:51.039 --> 00:18:52.160
Oh, terrible.
00:18:52.880 --> 00:18:54.319
Yeah, yeah.
00:18:54.480 --> 00:19:05.359
I felt I I mean, it took me a long time to get back into the community when I felt normal again.
00:19:05.759 --> 00:19:08.240
I actually didn't want to go out into the community.
00:19:08.319 --> 00:19:21.440
I'd wanted to stay at home, wallow in my own self-pity, wallow in wallow is probably a strong word, but I what I I couldn't deal with.
00:19:22.400 --> 00:19:24.559
I had so many triggers.
00:19:25.200 --> 00:19:27.440
I didn't want to see little kids.
00:19:27.599 --> 00:19:31.119
Everywhere you go, you see little kids, little babies.
00:19:31.519 --> 00:19:36.880
So I avoided social interaction with just about anyone.
00:19:37.119 --> 00:19:39.759
People would ask me, you know, why I was off work.
00:19:39.839 --> 00:19:41.200
I didn't really know what to say.
00:19:41.279 --> 00:19:55.680
I had to lie, and that was very uncomfortable for me because I wasn't prepared to admit that I, you know, was having some mental health leave, really, because I was always thinking that I would be able to get back.
00:19:55.839 --> 00:20:02.799
I don't know what I was thinking, like that's crazy stuff, really, after, but I didn't realise how sick I was until I did a couple of courses.
00:20:03.119 --> 00:20:06.720
But I didn't want to go out, I didn't want to see anyone.
00:20:06.880 --> 00:20:09.039
I was triggered by, as I said, little kids.
00:20:09.200 --> 00:20:10.240
Kids are everywhere.
00:20:10.400 --> 00:20:12.000
I'm triggered by dogs.
00:20:12.240 --> 00:20:14.240
Everyone I know has got a dog.
00:20:14.559 --> 00:20:21.200
I'm triggered by like just the sound of a police car or seeing the police.
00:20:21.359 --> 00:20:29.359
It used to make me feel so sad because I loved policing, the majority of it.
00:20:29.680 --> 00:20:31.920
And I loved what it stood for.
00:20:32.079 --> 00:20:36.720
It was like, you know, your chest had sort of, I don't know, I felt very proud.
00:20:37.039 --> 00:20:48.319
And by leaving and not being there, I felt I'd lost everything that I loved, everything that meant something to me.
00:20:48.799 --> 00:20:51.519
And I didn't want to be reminded by all that.
00:20:51.599 --> 00:20:55.039
So I really became a you know, a bit of a shell.
00:20:55.839 --> 00:20:57.839
It was 50% of your life at that point, yeah.
00:20:57.920 --> 00:21:03.519
It must have taken a while to how much 50 10 and to rest.
00:21:03.920 --> 00:21:04.240
80%.
00:21:05.200 --> 00:21:09.599
I'm not very good at the math, but um it was 27 years ago with that, of your life.
00:21:09.680 --> 00:21:19.359
And it must have taken a while to drop the drop the shield, you know, also because there's police, we do guard ourselves and we we know we're I think my my thing in the job was hypervigilance.
00:21:19.440 --> 00:21:20.160
I still have it now.
00:21:20.240 --> 00:21:22.079
I know who's behind me and if I can take them.
00:21:23.039 --> 00:21:25.200
I'm always aware of everything that's going on.
00:21:25.279 --> 00:21:37.599
And you know, I remember being at a park once and there was a concert and seeing little girl about three dancing like she'd seen Madonna Britney Spears dancing, but going up to strange men and dancing like that, very sexualized in front of them.
00:21:37.759 --> 00:21:41.359
And I was just, I could not enjoy the concert because their parents weren't paying attention.
00:21:41.519 --> 00:21:45.359
The men were kind of pushing her away, but I thought she gets the wrong person, you know.
00:21:45.440 --> 00:21:51.200
Like, so did it take a while to also just, you know, feel it's hard because policing never leaves you.
00:21:51.279 --> 00:21:54.400
I still stand a certain way and I still I don't have a badge anymore.
00:21:54.480 --> 00:21:56.640
So when I see injustice, I'm not a bystander.
00:21:56.720 --> 00:22:01.119
I think I make good choices, but did it take a while for that to kind of Shift as well?
00:22:02.160 --> 00:22:05.200
I d I actually don't think it's ever really shifted.
00:22:05.359 --> 00:22:16.720
I mean, it's probably it's dissipated, but even now, like, you know, if I'm with my sisters and we go somewhere and I'll go, there's a, you know, there's a dodgy one.
00:22:17.039 --> 00:22:19.119
What do you mean there's a dodgy one?
00:22:19.440 --> 00:22:36.880
Anyway, I reckon nine times out of ten, I'm pretty spot on, but uh I am very I'm still very hyper-vigilant, but I'm not as bad as I was, but hyper-vigilance is something I don't think we ever can you know get rid of, really.
00:22:37.119 --> 00:22:45.359
It's yeah, but no, I I still feel I'm very I'm always watching.
00:22:45.680 --> 00:23:03.359
I really can't turn off in but in saying that I'm not on, let's say, let's say 90, 80% of the time now I'm on, maybe as you said, maybe 50%, I don't know, but it's certainly not as prevalent as it was.
00:23:03.519 --> 00:23:09.920
And you know, and even like now with dogs, with kids, I'm a lot better.
00:23:10.640 --> 00:23:16.960
But like you, you never forget things that you see, but it does get easier, you know.
00:23:17.039 --> 00:23:39.440
I've learned a lot of tools to manage those triggers, though that anxiety, and also I think about four, three, maybe three years ago, I went to a party where there was lots of kids, and I I've always been very hyper-vigilant, like a bit like you, with kids, but also as I said, it's a trigger.
00:23:39.680 --> 00:24:03.200
But this particular party I went to, I remember coming home and actually thinking to myself, I reckon that's the first time I've ever been to a party where there's lots of kids, and I haven't thought terrible things about you know what I'd seen or what might happen to that kid, that little girl, for instance.
00:24:03.440 --> 00:24:06.319
And I thought, wow, that's that's what's that?
00:24:07.119 --> 00:24:07.839
A long time.
00:24:10.960 --> 00:24:11.839
Yeah, yeah.
00:24:12.000 --> 00:24:16.000
So but you know, it it will never go away.
00:24:16.480 --> 00:24:18.240
But it's a lot easier to deal with.
00:24:18.400 --> 00:24:20.480
I've done a lot of work on my mental health.
00:24:20.559 --> 00:24:24.960
I've been, you know, I've seen a psychiatrist, a psychiatrist, a psychologist for a long time.
00:24:25.119 --> 00:24:43.680
I don't see her anymore, but she helped me enormously, as did I don't say a lot of good things about work cover, but work cover was really good with uh they got me into the Austin Hospital, a PTSD course, and that was a game changer for me.
00:24:43.839 --> 00:24:46.480
That made me realize how sick I was.
00:24:46.640 --> 00:24:53.279
That's when I accepted that I was really sick, that I did need help, and that I couldn't do it on my own.
00:24:53.440 --> 00:25:00.960
I couldn't recover to the point I am now on my own, and I needed intervention, professional intervention.
00:25:01.279 --> 00:25:05.599
So that's a very long answer to a very short question.
00:25:06.079 --> 00:25:19.359
No, I think it's a really important point you make too that I have uh the utmost respect for you because you also sought help and you've continued to work on yourself and and you know, make sure that you can still live a fulfilling life after all the the trauma you've experienced.
00:25:19.519 --> 00:25:27.279
Do you find that talking about your career and the things that you that you witnessed and you know uh worked on relives it all the time?
00:25:27.359 --> 00:25:31.279
Or is it like you know, problem what's they saying, a problem shared is a problem half?
00:25:31.359 --> 00:25:34.960
Does it every time you share it with it does it make it less heavy?
00:25:36.319 --> 00:25:49.200
Okay, I find, in fact, because I put up a a shield and I had this facade for so long, now I keep I just want to tell the world.
00:25:49.359 --> 00:25:51.200
I don't want to keep it a secret anymore.
00:25:51.279 --> 00:25:56.640
I'm sick of keeping secret what I saw and how it affected me.
00:25:56.799 --> 00:26:05.039
However, I still can't tell there are things that I have seen that I still couldn't tell anyone.
00:26:05.440 --> 00:26:16.400
In fact, I remember seeing a psychiatrist through work cover, and I did tell her something that I had never told anyone else.
00:26:16.640 --> 00:26:24.480
And she put her hand up and she said, Norrell, I can't, I can't listen to that, I can't deal with it.
00:26:24.720 --> 00:26:40.480
And that made me realize that it was I mean, I knew it was bad, but you do sort of take a few steps and think I'm gonna tell people just to sort of get it out of my own head, and that's what happens.
00:26:40.640 --> 00:26:59.920
So you do have to, I still have to be very careful, but also I suppose I get asked a lot about you know my husband, um, my family, you know, what how have I did I tell them and and why didn't they see the signs, let's say.
00:27:00.400 --> 00:27:08.400
But how can you take somebody into such a cruel, traumatic, grief-ridden world?
00:27:08.720 --> 00:27:09.519
Why would you?
00:27:09.759 --> 00:27:13.119
I don't want to take my husband and my family into that world.
00:27:13.359 --> 00:27:24.640
So again, so I suppose that that facade, it's pretty much gone, but there's still little things that are very, very distressing to me, but I could never ever tell anybody.
00:27:24.720 --> 00:27:33.599
And that the opportunity I did get to tell that uh psychologist or psychiatrist, even she couldn't deal with it.
00:27:33.759 --> 00:27:54.480
So, you know, it it uh there's still stuff there, but I just want to share I want to shine a light on how tough it is for police and first responders, not just police, like we're talking Ambos, nurses, doctors, fieries.
00:27:55.440 --> 00:27:57.599
It's really, really tough.
00:27:58.160 --> 00:28:01.279
And I'm sick of keeping it a secret.
00:28:02.400 --> 00:28:06.000
Yeah, I I absolutely understand what you're saying about what you choose to share.
00:28:06.240 --> 00:28:06.480
Same.
00:28:06.640 --> 00:28:14.480
There's some things that I've never told people because I think generally friends and family and general public, they can't cope with hearing that stuff, you know.
00:28:14.720 --> 00:28:18.960
And part of the reason I just wanted to leave in the end was I didn't want to know what people did to each other anymore.
00:28:19.200 --> 00:28:23.359
I had a very strong moment like you did where you went to the party three years ago when I've when I've resigned.
00:28:23.440 --> 00:28:26.640
I was on the bus about a week later and I saw a grandfather with his grandkids.
00:28:26.799 --> 00:28:32.160
And I remember consciously thinking, wow, this is the first time I haven't suspected he's probably doing something to them that he shouldn't.
00:28:32.240 --> 00:28:36.480
And just and I just smiled because they were interacting really lovely and they're just a little family on an outing.
00:28:36.559 --> 00:28:42.079
And I thought, wow, I'd become so I looked at everyone with suspicion and you know, I think you have to have balance.
00:28:42.160 --> 00:28:43.359
It's you've got to be aware.
00:28:43.440 --> 00:28:45.680
And a lot of people live an unaware life where they're not.
00:28:45.839 --> 00:28:54.079
I'm like, watch your handbag, love it's in your shopping trolley and you're not looking, you've got to be aware, but there's also too much awareness where you're clutching it to your chest the whole time and everyone's gonna rob you.
00:28:54.319 --> 00:28:55.920
So I think you've got to find that balance in there.
00:28:56.240 --> 00:29:03.279
What was it like watching your your especially your career story and part of your life story back in the police woman in your film?
00:29:03.599 --> 00:29:08.880
Oh really, to be honest, I feel really proud.
00:29:10.240 --> 00:29:32.960
There's some parts that I still really well, cringe is the wrong word, but some really personal situations that I share that I still feel really embarrassed about, but I feel I have to, it's not just uh 50% of what I feel or what I know.
00:29:33.119 --> 00:29:37.200
I feel if I'm going to do this, I'm gonna do it properly.
00:29:37.359 --> 00:29:48.000
And for instance, I talk quite openly about being uh at the bottom of the I wasn't academic at all.
00:29:48.240 --> 00:30:07.279
I don't know if I've got an academic bone in my body, but I really struggled out at the academy and to actually have up the results, we show the results on the policewoman the results, and I'm down the bottom, and I still feel really embarrassed about that.
00:30:07.839 --> 00:30:27.680
But I also think I also want to give people motivation or inspiration that you don't have to be academically gifted to be successful or to do something, okay, you might have to work a bit harder than some that are gifted in that sense.
00:30:27.759 --> 00:30:36.960
But then again, on the other side, I was probably, I don't know about gifted, but the physical side was really easy for me.
00:30:37.119 --> 00:30:41.359
Whereas some people, you know, they failed because they couldn't do the physical stuff.
00:30:41.680 --> 00:30:44.640
So that was a very confronting.
00:30:44.880 --> 00:30:46.960
I found that really difficult to admit.
00:30:47.200 --> 00:30:51.680
I referred to the word that I felt dumb.
00:30:52.000 --> 00:30:55.519
That's a terrible word, but that's how I felt.
00:30:55.759 --> 00:31:04.559
And by being last in the exam results so often, it almost confirmed how I felt.
00:31:04.720 --> 00:31:12.160
That I found that really difficult to share, but also I felt it was really important.
00:31:12.559 --> 00:31:20.400
So, but I feel the main emotion I feel is just incredibly proud.
00:31:20.559 --> 00:31:26.880
But also I'm really glad that people now know my story and they might understand why.
00:31:27.039 --> 00:31:36.240
Like I can remember being at exit at it at an exercise class when I first left and just starting to get out into the public again.
00:31:36.559 --> 00:31:43.279
And a little bay uh a little girl brought along a doll to the exercise class.
00:31:43.440 --> 00:31:56.400
And I remember looking at it, and I I thought I was going to be sick, and I had to say to the the guy that runs it, could you ask the lady to put that, have her child put that doll away?
00:31:56.559 --> 00:32:01.039
I said, It's just a huge trigger for me, and so he did.
00:32:04.400 --> 00:32:06.079
Yeah, I've lost my train of thought.
00:32:06.160 --> 00:32:07.279
I do that a lot.
00:32:07.599 --> 00:32:08.240
Oh, me too.
00:32:08.480 --> 00:32:10.240
I go off on all these tangents.
00:32:10.480 --> 00:32:11.519
I blame just being a woman.
00:32:12.880 --> 00:32:14.160
There's so much in here.
00:32:14.559 --> 00:32:18.640
Um, you're talking about the you went to the exercise class and the doll triggered you.
00:32:18.720 --> 00:32:20.400
And I'm not sure that wasn't in the film.
00:32:20.480 --> 00:32:25.200
That bit wasn't in the film, but um, oh, there's so much that there's so much that's not in the film.
00:32:25.519 --> 00:32:26.079
I can imagine.
00:32:26.160 --> 00:32:28.480
Did she respond favourably to that when you made that request?
00:32:28.559 --> 00:32:29.359
Did she put the doll away?
00:32:29.440 --> 00:32:30.079
Did she call it?
00:32:30.319 --> 00:32:33.119
I didn't ask the the the guy that runs it, Mick.
00:32:33.599 --> 00:32:38.079
He asked her if she would mind putting it away because it upsets Narrell or something.
00:32:38.319 --> 00:32:41.119
She didn't ask any questions and she did it.
00:32:41.680 --> 00:32:42.000
Wow.
00:32:42.240 --> 00:32:44.559
Can I tell you a secret that I've never told anyone?
00:32:44.640 --> 00:32:47.759
And probably 40 people know because they were there, but that I've never told anyone.
00:32:47.920 --> 00:32:50.240
I came second last in my police academy.
00:32:50.400 --> 00:32:51.759
Now I excelled at school.
00:32:51.920 --> 00:33:00.960
I came in the top 5% for English in the state, and I loved school, but just the law, yet you know what you have that doesn't matter about what schools are in paper.
00:33:01.039 --> 00:33:02.799
You have empathy and you were committed.
00:33:02.960 --> 00:33:16.319
And you know, most of the I would like to say, and you know, some members of general public may have differing opinions, but I I like to believe that well, the people I worked with, certainly in my own experience, were good police officers and were committed and passionate, like anything, a cross-section of the community.
00:33:16.400 --> 00:33:21.680
There are some people who are lazier than others and you know, not of the same ethics as others.
00:33:21.920 --> 00:33:36.480
You certainly weren't lazy, you put yourself at the coal face, you really cared, you burdened that you know, shouldered that responsibility immensely, and you had just an empathy and a passion and a compassion that you can't get on a test by ticking true or false answers.
00:33:36.640 --> 00:33:39.599
So I came second last and you know, look at us now.
00:33:39.680 --> 00:33:40.480
We're doing really well.
00:33:40.559 --> 00:33:41.359
So exactly.
00:33:42.000 --> 00:33:42.720
We're fine.
00:33:42.880 --> 00:33:43.680
Um I like.
00:33:44.240 --> 00:33:44.720
Sorry, Chris.
00:33:45.039 --> 00:33:47.200
Can I just can I just on that?
00:33:47.440 --> 00:33:48.000
Yeah.
00:33:48.400 --> 00:33:55.839
With policing, a lot of it, most of it, about when you become a senior constable, a detective, a sergeant.
00:33:55.920 --> 00:34:00.559
It's all about exams and how clever you are.
00:34:00.960 --> 00:34:06.640
That's why I really like really my whole police career, like I went for sergeant's exams.
00:34:06.799 --> 00:34:18.480
I think I would have made a great sergeant, a really good sergeant, but I couldn't get past the exams because I just used to get so anxious and I I just I'd go to water.
00:34:19.119 --> 00:34:32.000
So but I think it's a bit, I I don't agree with the fact that because you can be very clever, you can rise to all these ranks, but you can be a terrible people person.
00:34:32.239 --> 00:34:50.079
And I have had my fair share of really uh clever sergeants, but they got no idea how to manage people, no idea about really empathy or compassion, but they're brilliant, you know, they're brilliant academically or very good.
00:34:50.239 --> 00:34:51.840
That's what I think is a bit unfair.
00:34:51.920 --> 00:34:53.840
But anyway, I don't know how you get around that.
00:34:54.159 --> 00:34:54.800
Yeah, absolutely.
00:34:54.880 --> 00:35:00.159
They can recite the criminal code, but they don't have communication skills or can't manage a team effectively.
00:35:00.320 --> 00:35:05.039
And to be honest, I think the thing that was my strongest suit, I joined when I was 19 and eight days old.
00:35:05.199 --> 00:35:08.239
So I was the youngest police officer in this in the state for about two years.
00:35:08.400 --> 00:35:16.079
And I remember being at the front desk of the police station and having like 60-year-old people coming in asking me for life advice, like distraught.
00:35:16.239 --> 00:35:18.480
And and like I think I was a mature 19-year-old.
00:35:18.559 --> 00:35:21.280
I had had a bit of life experience, but how much can you have by 19?
00:35:21.360 --> 00:35:26.800
But you know, both my parents have been married three times and I've been to over a dozen schools, and so I had a bit of that.
00:35:26.880 --> 00:35:31.440
But I remember just this is just so strange that they're asking me, you know.
00:35:31.599 --> 00:35:34.000
But communication's always been my strong suit, you know.
00:35:34.079 --> 00:35:40.960
I I know enough to know what, you know, I think you same for you, like you're very personable, you and you seem interested and engaged in people.
00:35:41.039 --> 00:35:45.199
And I think, you know, that makes also a good foundation for a good police officer.
00:35:45.280 --> 00:35:53.280
And just maybe, you know, hopefully the testing has changed these days because the I would much rather a sergeant that no, the same, yeah, still.
00:35:53.599 --> 00:35:54.480
Oh no.
00:35:54.639 --> 00:35:56.239
Yeah, I haven't looked into it.
00:35:56.320 --> 00:36:00.639
I haven't applied, reapplied in not planning to, but um, so I haven't really checked it out.
00:36:00.800 --> 00:36:01.760
That's two of us.
00:36:02.400 --> 00:36:07.760
In in the policewoman, there's an amazing way that your story is told.
00:36:07.840 --> 00:36:17.599
Some of the more some of the jobs you go to that are more intense and graphic, they're presented using a doll's house and little dolls as references to yes, those little dolls.
00:36:18.079 --> 00:36:18.639
There she is.
00:36:19.280 --> 00:36:20.320
Little policewoman's doll.
00:36:20.480 --> 00:36:22.159
Is it is it wood or is it a plastic?
00:36:22.239 --> 00:36:24.480
Like little that's little norel.
00:36:25.119 --> 00:36:27.280
It's actually, isn't it cute?
00:36:27.519 --> 00:36:29.360
Um yeah, yeah.
00:36:29.519 --> 00:36:38.079
That was made by um Claire and Steve Pasvolski, the directors, one of their sons made that on a 3D printer.
00:36:38.320 --> 00:36:42.159
So they painted this, and but it's brilliant.
00:36:42.320 --> 00:36:45.039
Uh initially I wasn't sure about the miniatures.
00:36:45.280 --> 00:36:57.840
It was it's something very, I think pretty unique, but why they did it was so that like at one stage there, they film a woman.
00:36:58.000 --> 00:37:01.760
One of my stories is about a woman that sets herself alight.
00:37:02.079 --> 00:37:06.639
Now, that would be so distressing for the the audience.
00:37:06.800 --> 00:37:36.639
So what they do is they use these, and the there's little miniatures of a lot of things, and what they can do is you can set this little, let's say, a little miniature alight, and it's no, you don't lose the impact, but you certainly don't have that oh, you know, you it's not a person being set alight, it it is a character, caricature, is that right, character, of somebody being set alight.
00:37:36.880 --> 00:37:41.599
So it still gets the message across, but the gore, say, is not there.
00:37:41.840 --> 00:37:43.679
I think it's a brilliant concept.
00:37:43.760 --> 00:37:54.880
And what's happened is there are so the accolades are coming thick and fast about the way that they have managed the the gore side.
00:37:55.039 --> 00:37:56.960
They're not sensationalizing that.
00:37:57.119 --> 00:38:03.519
They're more sensationalizing the emotions that we feel rather than the gore.
00:38:03.599 --> 00:38:06.000
And that's what I think is brilliant.
00:38:06.639 --> 00:38:07.280
Absolutely.
00:38:07.440 --> 00:38:13.360
And I think what else is really clever is the way you tell the stories and they've edited it together.
00:38:13.519 --> 00:38:16.480
It feels like what it's like to be a police officer on shift for me.
00:38:16.559 --> 00:38:22.320
It felt like I'm about to go out on the road and this job's just come in, and then next minute this is happening, and then I've been called back here.
00:38:22.639 --> 00:38:31.519
And watching it, I got the story of the lady that set herself alight, and also the story of the woman that was in the boot of the car will stay with me forever.
00:38:31.920 --> 00:38:34.159
What you went through in those moments will as well.
00:38:34.320 --> 00:38:41.519
But it's I I don't want to turn people off hearing that because the way it is presented is sensitive, it's set done sensitively and with respect.
00:38:41.760 --> 00:38:53.280
And you're right, it's you you telling the story and then using a different reference for the visuals that you know is it's not palatable, but it's it's people can see it and manage it without being traumatized.
00:38:53.360 --> 00:38:55.119
And you know, yeah, I think that was really clever.
00:38:55.440 --> 00:38:57.760
I was gonna ask whose idea it was because I thought it might have been yours.
00:38:57.840 --> 00:38:59.199
I was gonna give you all the credit for using it.
00:38:59.440 --> 00:39:02.000
Oh no, I'm not I'm not that clever, remember?
00:39:02.400 --> 00:39:04.719
No, you've great.
00:39:04.960 --> 00:39:11.840
You also mentioned in the film you you're saying there very clearly that you're sick of holding it all in and you want the public to know what first responders go through.
00:39:12.000 --> 00:39:15.519
What do you hope the public takes away from your film when they watch it?
00:39:19.519 --> 00:39:42.719
I want them to think about first responders, the tough stuff that they deal with, to have a bit of compassion for them, to and probably not even first responders, although that's my my the main one, but just mental health.
00:39:43.280 --> 00:39:45.199
It's not the end of the world.
00:39:45.519 --> 00:39:50.400
You know, if you if you get help, don't do not ignore it like I did.
00:39:50.559 --> 00:39:59.280
Put your head in the sand because I lost what I consider to be the best career in the world because of my pig headedness.
00:39:59.760 --> 00:40:04.960
It's about educating the public that it's nothing to be ashamed of.
00:40:05.280 --> 00:40:11.840
We need to normalize, not stigmatize, mental illness as just another illness.
00:40:12.559 --> 00:40:31.199
And the more that I can educate the the public about mental illness not being a life sentence, like I I have now, yes, I I've you know, we've we've all got scars, everyone's had issues that have happened.
00:40:31.519 --> 00:40:46.239
But you know, if you if you don't think you're traveling too well, trust your instincts, do something about it, do not ignore it because I'm telling like me, it bit me on the bum when I had no idea.
00:40:46.960 --> 00:41:00.960
So I want people to accept, not not treat people like they're you know, they're a pariah, like you know, it's um just have some compassion.
00:41:01.440 --> 00:41:02.480
Yeah, absolutely.
00:41:02.639 --> 00:41:05.280
Um beyond words, I think language is really important.
00:41:05.360 --> 00:41:07.920
So you're mentioning post-traumatic stress injury.
00:41:08.079 --> 00:41:14.320
I even have an issue with the word mental health because you know, mental used to be used as, oh, there she's mental, like crazy.
00:41:14.480 --> 00:41:21.840
And I find, you know, with if I said, Oh, I've got a a brain injury, but people would be like I'd be treated very differently to saying I've got mental health issues, you know.
00:41:22.079 --> 00:41:27.039
There's the the whole maybe there needs to be a whole re-rewrite for some of these things because you're right.
00:41:27.360 --> 00:41:34.559
In fact, I think, I think uh I've I've had a lot of trouble, I agree, saying mental illness.
00:41:34.800 --> 00:41:46.719
Mental health to me, it it's a it's a really big umbrella, but mental illness is like, sorry, but you're crazy, you know, that sort of that attitude, that stigma.
00:41:46.800 --> 00:41:52.639
And that's what I want to try and get out of people's minds.
00:41:52.880 --> 00:41:55.280
That you know, mental illness, okay.
00:41:55.519 --> 00:41:59.440
It's just as I said, it's you're you're unwell.
00:41:59.920 --> 00:42:02.480
It's a chemical brain imbalance, effectively.
00:42:02.559 --> 00:42:04.400
And we take medication for everything else.
00:42:04.480 --> 00:42:09.199
Why wouldn't we take medication for our chemical imbalances in our brain when they go a bit wonky?
00:42:09.280 --> 00:42:11.119
You know, I think that's and it isn't that funny.
00:42:11.280 --> 00:42:20.079
That was something that I avoided for a very long time taking medication because of that stigma.
00:42:20.639 --> 00:42:33.119
But it was a game changer for me, almost a lifesaver to actually accept that maybe maybe the professionals know what they're talking about.
00:42:33.440 --> 00:42:34.880
Maybe I should listen.
00:42:35.039 --> 00:42:41.920
Uh, or I I thought that that thing in my head about medication is like almost like giving in.
00:42:42.400 --> 00:42:44.559
But again, it's been a game changer.
00:42:44.639 --> 00:42:48.880
And I'm, you know, I probably haven't said this, but I'm still on medication.
00:42:49.039 --> 00:42:53.119
I think, oh well, you know, people have a a pill for a headache.
00:42:53.199 --> 00:42:54.000
I don't quite get it.
00:42:54.079 --> 00:42:54.800
What's the difference?
00:42:54.880 --> 00:43:00.800
You know, I've got a pill to, I mean, it's not to make me, it's just to help with the anxiety.
00:43:00.960 --> 00:43:05.599
That's something that I will probably live with for the rest of my life.
00:43:05.840 --> 00:43:09.760
But if something if a little pill can help that, well, so be it.
00:43:09.840 --> 00:43:10.880
I I tried everything.
00:43:11.039 --> 00:43:14.000
I tried natural remedies, I tried everything.
00:43:14.320 --> 00:43:19.119
And having one pill a day, just you know, it helps me.
00:43:19.360 --> 00:43:20.559
Well wouldn't you do it actually?
00:43:21.119 --> 00:43:21.760
Yeah, exactly.
00:43:21.920 --> 00:43:27.039
It's almost it's almost not not doesn't sound too easy too easy because you've had a big journey to get there.
00:43:27.119 --> 00:43:35.119
But and I think that's important if anyone is listening and has some issues with you know mental health or th things in the way that they're thinking or feeling.
00:43:35.360 --> 00:43:37.599
You have choice and control over what you put in your body.
00:43:37.760 --> 00:43:43.119
So you get to can if you have a good find a good doctor and consult on what you know the side effects are and what the pros and cons are.
00:43:43.199 --> 00:43:43.840
And you get to choose.
00:43:43.920 --> 00:43:46.559
It's not just like you whacked on medication and you become a different person.
00:43:46.719 --> 00:43:52.800
It just you know helps you think clearly and and you know, do you feel more yourself on medication now?
00:43:53.280 --> 00:43:54.239
Oh yes.
00:43:54.400 --> 00:43:59.760
Like when I consider, I actually a couple of times my doctor and I have talked.
00:44:00.320 --> 00:44:12.960
About maybe lessening the medication, but you know, he sort of says if you feel good and you are good, why would we muck around along these lines?
00:44:13.039 --> 00:44:14.639
You know, why would we muck around with it?
00:44:14.719 --> 00:44:21.119
And you know, I don't even want to feel like I felt prior to going on medication.
00:44:21.519 --> 00:44:33.360
I was just I was a mess, and the thought of going back to I mean, I don't think I would go back to something, it's a feeling like that because I'm so much better, but why would I take the chance?
00:44:33.519 --> 00:44:34.480
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
00:44:35.119 --> 00:44:46.639
I mean, like for me now, I think I said in the the film in the doco, I honestly don't think I've ever been better mentally in my life than I am now.
00:44:46.800 --> 00:44:57.119
I'm just I'm in a really good place, and you know, the main thing I feel about the DOCO is just immense pride.
00:44:57.679 --> 00:45:09.519
I'm humbled, but I feel like I'm a voice for a lot of people that don't have a voice, and I'm I've got so many police friends that are saying thank you.
00:45:09.760 --> 00:45:18.480
You know, you've just said what I've wanted to say and I can't, and so yeah, it's um it's really rewarding.
00:45:19.280 --> 00:45:21.840
I love that so much that you feel so good.
00:45:22.239 --> 00:45:24.400
Are you doing any public speaking?
00:45:24.480 --> 00:45:31.599
Because I'd love to know what you're doing now, but do you do any public speaking at the police academy to officers coming through or to police units?
00:45:31.760 --> 00:45:34.639
Have they reached out and asked you to come out?
00:45:35.039 --> 00:45:44.079
I've given I've given a couple of talks at the academy, but I get the feeling that maybe I'm a bit too honest.
00:45:44.400 --> 00:45:49.760
I I don't quite know because I haven't had too mans for going back.
00:45:49.920 --> 00:45:52.000
So I would think there's a reason for that.
00:45:52.079 --> 00:45:53.440
I don't know what the reason is.
00:45:53.679 --> 00:45:59.760
It could be a lot of things, but I feel like maybe I'm just a little bit too honest.
00:46:00.480 --> 00:46:07.599
I I don't know, but I do do a lot of keynote presentations which I just love.
00:46:08.639 --> 00:46:19.039
It's funny, like when I was in policing, oh, until I I left policing, public speaking was something that horrified me.
00:46:19.119 --> 00:46:20.559
I was terrible at it.
00:46:20.880 --> 00:46:26.719
I didn't have to do a lot of public speaking, but when I did, I was just oh god, a nervous wreck.
00:46:26.880 --> 00:46:35.199
So when I was sick and I on work cover, I just sort of felt I had the right sort of personality.
00:46:35.599 --> 00:46:41.119
I had the stories I could tell in a funny story, a sad story.
00:46:41.199 --> 00:46:43.599
I just seemed to have the right balance.
00:46:44.000 --> 00:46:55.119
And so I went to do a course with Toastmasters, they're an international uh organization that help you learn to do public speaking.
00:46:55.199 --> 00:47:05.440
They teach you all these little, I don't know, what to do, what not to do, and it unleashed a beast, and that's what started.
00:47:05.679 --> 00:47:09.360
So now it's just funny where it's led.
00:47:09.519 --> 00:47:18.159
Like Toastmasters has led to where I am now to be able to do public speaking, to the DOCO, to do keynotes.
00:47:18.800 --> 00:47:22.320
It is just so fulfilling and rewarding.
00:47:22.480 --> 00:47:32.320
Like the responses I get with my public speaking, with my keynote addresses, really, that's why I do what I do.
00:47:32.480 --> 00:47:33.440
I love it.
00:47:33.920 --> 00:47:35.679
I'm getting the message across.
00:47:35.920 --> 00:47:36.320
Absolutely.
00:47:36.400 --> 00:47:38.719
And I was gonna say, I imagine it would it helps people.
00:47:38.800 --> 00:47:40.400
So you're still helping people.
00:47:40.639 --> 00:47:43.440
You're still helping people in in a very similar way.
00:47:43.599 --> 00:47:48.079
Because everyone's got their story, everyone's got things they're sitting with in those audiences that they're struggling with.
00:47:48.159 --> 00:47:50.559
And I think you're an inspiration in the fact that you sought help.
00:47:50.800 --> 00:47:56.239
You make, excuse me, you make no secret of the fact that you're on medication, there's no shame in any of that.
00:47:56.320 --> 00:48:01.039
You're actually putting yourself first and looking after yourself, which certainly as women, I think we don't do enough of.
00:48:01.199 --> 00:48:08.239
We get we're so worried about if my partner sneezes, I'm like, off to the doctor, whereas my leg will fall off before I'll think or maybe I should go and get it checked, you know.
00:48:10.000 --> 00:48:12.400
Not self-care like showering, but self-care with health.
00:48:12.480 --> 00:48:17.599
I'll, you know, absolutely too busy to go to the doctor for my leg, but it's dragging behind me.
00:48:17.840 --> 00:48:19.599
What are you working on now moving forward?
00:48:19.679 --> 00:48:20.800
What have you got coming up in the future?
00:48:20.880 --> 00:48:22.719
I know you've got the films out on the 5th of November.
00:48:22.880 --> 00:48:25.280
Do you have some exciting things planned around that?
00:48:26.000 --> 00:48:29.440
Uh, we've got um oh no, not really.
00:48:29.519 --> 00:48:32.400
I mean, we've got screenings, you know.
00:48:32.639 --> 00:48:35.119
I sort of feel like, isn't this weird?
00:48:35.280 --> 00:48:39.199
I'm 67 and I have got a new career.
00:48:39.360 --> 00:48:41.599
Like who would have thought?
00:48:41.760 --> 00:48:50.800
Not me, but I just I don't know what the future holds, to be honest, Alex, but it's really exciting.
00:48:51.440 --> 00:48:55.280
I am I'm just living the dream to be honest.
00:48:55.519 --> 00:49:00.079
I I'm loving the response that I'm getting.
00:49:00.239 --> 00:49:03.519
I feel I just feel really good.
00:49:03.599 --> 00:49:04.880
I I keep coming back to it.
00:49:04.960 --> 00:49:15.039
I just feel really proud that I am where I am and that people seem to resonate with what I'm saying and how I'm saying it.
00:49:15.280 --> 00:49:23.679
I just myself and I I love the fact that people are liking me for who I am and what I represent.
00:49:24.159 --> 00:49:24.559
I love that.
00:49:24.719 --> 00:49:28.000
I don't know if you can tell, you just made me tear up a bit then because I you look so happy.
00:49:28.079 --> 00:49:41.920
Your eyes are full of life and joy, and when you're talking about what you do now and how much you love it, you actually genuinely look happy, and we've just met, but I'm so thrilled that this is your path and after everything you've been through, and also the amazing service you gave the state of Victoria for all those years.
00:49:42.000 --> 00:49:49.599
You know, you really sacrificed a big part of your own life and yourself, you know, and that you had to, you know, claw back afterwards.
00:49:49.760 --> 00:49:52.400
How can we support your work and where can we find you online?
00:49:53.840 --> 00:49:57.440
You can listen to my podcast, Norel Fraser Interviews.
00:49:57.679 --> 00:50:14.639
You know, in in my podcast, and that's another opportunity that a sliding door moment that came up that I wasn't expecting, but it's grown, and now I love the fact that it's true crime, obviously, but it's all different sorts of crime.
00:50:14.800 --> 00:50:26.480
It's the witnesses, the victims, people, families that have been affected by crime, uh, actual offenders I've had offenders on, psychologists, uh academics, criminologists.
00:50:26.719 --> 00:50:28.159
I just love that.
00:50:28.239 --> 00:50:34.079
So if people could have a listen to my podcast, uh, I give a voice to a lot of people that don't have a voice.
00:50:34.239 --> 00:50:35.840
That's my real passion.
00:50:36.719 --> 00:50:55.760
But also, it's if they look up, if they Google www.dot, and in no nothing in between, thepolicewoman.com.au, uh, they will find where all the screenings are, uh, where it's being shown, when.
00:50:56.320 --> 00:50:59.039
So look up the policewoman.
00:50:59.199 --> 00:51:04.639
Uh, google thepolicewoman.com.au, and you'll you'll find everything that you need.
00:51:05.679 --> 00:51:08.960
And I really implore people to seek out this film and go and see it.
00:51:09.119 --> 00:51:15.599
I believe that the popcorn panel said it's an innovative and insightful look at the physical and mental toll of law enforcement, and it got a very high ranking.
00:51:15.679 --> 00:51:17.519
So it comes highly recommended.
00:51:17.679 --> 00:51:19.679
And thank you so much for your time today.
00:51:19.760 --> 00:51:20.639
I really appreciate it.
00:51:20.719 --> 00:51:23.440
Thank you for sharing your story and thank you for your service.
00:51:23.519 --> 00:51:26.480
And just I'm absolutely thrilled, and I can't wait to see what you do next.
00:51:26.559 --> 00:51:29.679
Because you're right, it's it's just every day it just begins again, doesn't it?
00:51:29.760 --> 00:51:30.559
And it just takes off.
00:51:30.639 --> 00:51:32.880
So, all the best with everything, and thank you.
00:51:33.119 --> 00:51:34.960
Thanks for the opportunity, Alex.
00:51:35.199 --> 00:51:35.840
You're welcome.
00:51:35.920 --> 00:51:36.800
Thank you so much.
00:51:37.039 --> 00:51:37.760
Thanks.
00:51:41.119 --> 00:51:42.960
The popcorn panel.
00:00:24.640 --> 00:00:27.519
Welcome to the latest episode of the Pokemon Panel Podcast.
00:00:27.600 --> 00:00:29.519
My guest today is Norell Fraser.
00:00:29.760 --> 00:00:38.719
She spent 27 years with Victoria Police, including 15 as a detective tackling high-profile crimes across homicide squad, missing persons unit, and rape squad.
00:00:38.880 --> 00:00:47.280
Her meticulous and compassionate work brought her face to face with complex investigations until 2012, when an unexpected diagnosis changed her career path.
00:00:47.439 --> 00:00:55.840
Today she's an international speaker, media commentator, and podcaster, and has an intriguing and powerful documentary coming out on the 5th of November called The Police Woman.
00:00:55.920 --> 00:01:00.159
I'm very excited to welcome to the Popcorn Panel podcast, Norelle Fraser.
00:01:00.240 --> 00:01:01.679
Good morning, good afternoon, good evening.
00:01:01.759 --> 00:01:02.640
How are you?
00:01:03.119 --> 00:01:04.799
We're all over the ship, aren't we?
00:01:06.000 --> 00:01:09.120
From me, it's good afternoon, but to you it's good morning.
00:01:09.200 --> 00:01:22.239
But I gotta say, Alex, I love, I love the the title, the popcorn panel, because yesterday, where I was at one of the screenings, all I could smell all day was popcorn.
00:01:22.640 --> 00:01:23.200
I'm so sorry.
00:01:26.959 --> 00:01:34.879
But I don't know if the popcorn panel podcast was the best name because the alliteration of those peas always stuffs me up when I'm like pop pop pop.
00:01:35.599 --> 00:01:36.480
Anyway, we've got there.
00:01:38.319 --> 00:01:45.840
You've experienced you experienced a lot in 27 years in the police service, and the film covers some of that, but I imagine there's a million more things that you went through.
00:01:46.000 --> 00:01:48.719
Can you tell me a little bit about your policing career?
00:01:50.239 --> 00:01:53.760
Uh I loved 98% of it.
00:01:54.079 --> 00:02:01.519
I I started thinking about it when I was about 26, I suppose.
00:02:01.680 --> 00:02:07.920
I'd um traveled around Australia in a combi with a couple of girlfriends and we just had a ball.
00:02:08.080 --> 00:02:18.479
But when I got back, something sort of changed, I don't know how it happened, but I started counseling uh with Lifeline.
00:02:18.639 --> 00:02:29.599
I did a course and got through, and so I started counseling, uh, telephone counseling, but there was something about the people that rang Lifeline.
00:02:29.840 --> 00:02:34.319
I just I wanted to get to those people before they rang Lifeline.
00:02:34.400 --> 00:02:38.960
And policing, if you know, I was a black sheep in our family.
00:02:39.280 --> 00:02:46.479
It had never been even, I don't have any family members or anything, but I just loved the idea of helping people.
00:02:46.560 --> 00:02:52.560
And to me, policing was that that gap that I thought I could uh fit into.
00:02:52.800 --> 00:03:08.240
So I started, uh I went out to the academy, and at the time I was really fit, and I I didn't actually, I wasn't trying to get fit to join policing, I just wanted to get fit, and so you know how sometimes things just I don't know, they just fall into place.
00:03:08.400 --> 00:03:14.879
I was fit, I went to the academy, and I've got to say I found the academy very difficult.
00:03:15.039 --> 00:03:18.319
I I am not academically gifted.
00:03:18.639 --> 00:03:27.439
So at 27, like I left I left home, I left school when I was 15.
00:03:27.599 --> 00:03:47.280
So I had never studied, I didn't know how to study, and it was boy, I had to be keen because I had to work very, very hard at it academically out at the academy, but certainly the physical side uh I'd have to say I pretty much breezed through.
00:03:47.520 --> 00:03:51.759
So uh then I went to uh my training station was St Kilda.
00:03:52.479 --> 00:03:55.919
Talk about, you know, from the frying pan into the fire.
00:03:56.159 --> 00:03:59.599
I I'd never been exposed to that sort of life, Alex.
00:03:59.680 --> 00:04:03.680
Like I come from a very, oh, let's call it suburban.
00:04:04.080 --> 00:04:06.879
Mum and dad live in suburban Melbourne.
00:04:07.120 --> 00:04:24.560
I'd never really I'd never experienced anything like what I saw at St Kilda, and that was a lot of sex workers, a lot of men that were what we used to call gutter crawlers, looking for women, drugs, homelessness.
00:04:24.800 --> 00:04:31.360
Oh, it was just an eye-opener for me, but I knew I had found my calling.
00:04:31.600 --> 00:04:33.920
So I did what was it?
00:04:34.560 --> 00:04:55.040
I went to St Kilda was my training station, then I went to Carlton, that was my first gazetted station, and I was there for about five years, and then I had a sergeant that suggested he thought that I might be really suited to working with victims of crime like sex offences, child abuse, etc.
00:04:55.439 --> 00:05:01.279
And that's where my world opened up to something that I just knew this is me.
00:05:01.360 --> 00:05:14.720
And I went to it was called community policing squads in those days, but we dealt with people that had been abused sexually, physically, domestic violence, all that sort of, all that sort of stuff.
00:05:14.879 --> 00:05:16.079
And I just loved it.
00:05:16.160 --> 00:05:19.040
And from there I went to sex crimes.
00:05:19.120 --> 00:05:20.879
I went, sorry, I went to the rape squad.
00:05:20.959 --> 00:05:31.439
I became a detective because then I thought I really want to work, and this is nothing against the CPS or whatever, but I wanted to work on the big jobs.
00:05:31.680 --> 00:05:33.279
I just sort of, isn't it funny?
00:05:33.439 --> 00:05:39.600
Like I just wanted to work with people that had been so traumatized.
00:05:40.319 --> 00:05:42.399
I just I was drawn to it.
00:05:42.480 --> 00:05:46.800
I just sort of felt I was the right sort of personality, the right sort of person.
00:05:47.439 --> 00:05:55.920
And so I was at the rape squad, child exploitation, sex crimes, then I went to homicide, missing persons unit.
00:05:56.399 --> 00:06:01.839
And then I went back to uh socket, it's called sex offense and child abuse unit.
00:06:02.160 --> 00:06:06.800
And 25 years it just sort of all caught up with me, to be honest.
00:06:07.040 --> 00:06:12.240
It I had no idea that I was so mentally unwell.
00:06:12.319 --> 00:06:18.319
I just thought I was very tired, just a bit, you know, I don't know, overworked.
00:06:18.959 --> 00:06:25.199
And yeah, I got diagnosed with um post-traumatic stress disorder or PTSI as we're trying to call it.
00:06:25.439 --> 00:06:29.600
But it was, it just sort of, I thought it came out of nowhere.
00:06:29.680 --> 00:06:35.759
But you know, when I started looking back, it was as you know, obvious, obvious as the nose on the face, really.
00:06:36.000 --> 00:06:45.680
But I put my head in the sand thinking, well, I didn't know all also I was uneducated about mental illness, as most people were back then.
00:06:46.000 --> 00:06:53.519
But you know, one door closed, another door opened, and uh, you know, I it hasn't been easy, don't get me wrong.
00:06:53.680 --> 00:07:19.360
I've um, you know, I've been through a lot and I've been, I certainly, and I don't mind sharing this, I've never ever felt like ending it all, but I was very, very depressed, very sick, mentally sick, mentally unwell, and did a some courses and look at me, I I mean, I cannot believe where I am, to be honest.
00:07:20.079 --> 00:07:30.560
I love that for you so much because I think you mentioned the the trauma of the the clients, the customers, and the people that you were servicing, but that does have a flow on effect.
00:07:30.639 --> 00:07:40.160
You know, um in the film it's very cleverly presented by water droplets dripping into a jar that's every every time you attend a scene or deal with someone, it it one would drop and it overflows.
00:07:40.319 --> 00:07:45.680
Uh interestingly, I spoke to a mime artist yesterday and I said to him, I'm also former police officer.
00:07:45.759 --> 00:07:52.000
I did 14 years before I left and had a very clear catalyst that one day I saw a picture of a deceased child and I was just done.
00:07:52.160 --> 00:07:53.360
And I was like, I need to go.
00:07:53.439 --> 00:07:55.680
I don't want to know what people do anymore, and I had to leave.
00:07:55.839 --> 00:07:58.480
But I said to him, I'm quite a contained person.
00:07:58.560 --> 00:07:59.519
I think it's police training.
00:07:59.600 --> 00:08:00.480
I don't know if you'd agree.
00:08:00.560 --> 00:08:06.879
Like I stand very rigid and I'm I don't dance because I'm too self-conscious and I'm quite, you know, an in my head person.
00:08:06.959 --> 00:08:07.759
I'm not in my body.
00:08:07.839 --> 00:08:15.120
I do lots of talking rather than, you know, use my body to express, you know, you know, like I don't talk like this, and you know, like a mime artist would do.
00:08:15.279 --> 00:08:18.399
And I think because we're trained not to respond and be emotional, right?
00:08:18.480 --> 00:08:19.439
When you go to these scenes.
00:08:19.519 --> 00:08:25.439
And you mentioned in this film that you have you've got here, uh a sergeant said you just suck it up and don't talk about it and get on with it.
00:08:25.519 --> 00:08:27.600
Like there was no health and welfare when you're in the job.
00:08:27.759 --> 00:08:32.879
Did that turn up along the way, or was it always just you just have to suck it up?
00:08:33.519 --> 00:08:36.399
Uh that was pretty much my whole career.
00:08:36.639 --> 00:08:39.039
It started to get a bit better.
00:08:39.279 --> 00:08:49.919
It became started to get talked about more probably in the I don't know, let's say mid-2000s.
00:08:50.240 --> 00:09:05.759
I did uh a couple of years before I yeah, I went into I went up to the country for a couple of years and before I went back to socket and just on the div van again, it was unbelievable, it was fantastic.
00:09:06.159 --> 00:09:21.360
But that's when it started to become more talked about, more spoken about, but it was still something very I don't know, I felt very it was something you didn't talk about.
00:09:21.440 --> 00:09:31.600
It was shame, it was if anybody had gone off sick, like that's what they used to call it, gone off sick, you know, they were sort of made fun of.
00:09:31.759 --> 00:09:33.679
They were weak, unable to cope.
00:09:34.080 --> 00:09:37.919
You know, they could never cope, you know, that's sort of really cruel stuff.
00:09:38.080 --> 00:09:44.559
And I think we be got we became so much better in those in the early 2000s.
00:09:44.879 --> 00:10:07.039
But even by the time I was diagnosed in 2012, it was there was there still is, but there was a huge stigma, and so much so that I didn't want to tell anybody, and in fact, I didn't, I couldn't believe it, and I didn't accept that I was very unwell, and that probably put me back a fair while as well.
00:10:07.279 --> 00:10:16.879
Just to get over anything, you need to, any sickness, you need to accept this is what it is, and I need to do some work to get over it.
00:10:17.120 --> 00:10:27.600
And it took me a long time to accept, even just accept that I was so unwell because of the the shame, the humiliation, the embarrassment.
00:10:27.759 --> 00:10:32.320
You know, I used to lie about why I was off work for so long.
00:10:32.399 --> 00:10:37.840
I I just couldn't face the fact that I was so unwell.
00:10:38.000 --> 00:10:39.840
It was just humiliating.
00:10:40.480 --> 00:10:43.440
Was was there a catalyst for you in seeking help?
00:10:44.960 --> 00:11:00.720
Looking back, look, yes, I suppose there was I suppose in May of 2012, I had done, you know, I I'd worked on a lot of major investigations and I'd seen a lot of things.
00:11:00.879 --> 00:11:06.480
And like you said before, your catalyst was about a deceased baby.
00:11:07.039 --> 00:11:15.360
Any job that has that involves children is it just takes it to another level, rightly or wrongly.
00:11:15.519 --> 00:11:23.600
You just can't if you if you've got any ounce of compassion or care, you know, that's pretty hard stuff to deal with.
00:11:23.919 --> 00:11:27.919
And I think I had it was building up.
00:11:28.080 --> 00:11:43.120
I'd I'd had a lot of dealings with deceased children, but the cruelty, I I saw a lot of cruelty in my role with the with Socket, the sex offense and child abuse team.
00:11:43.679 --> 00:11:50.559
And I think looking back, that was probably the it was building pretty fast by then.
00:11:50.960 --> 00:12:11.759
But the catalyst really, I think, was when I did a warrant on a pedophile, and I'd done, I don't know, maybe 50, 6, I don't know how many, but it was a lot of not my own jobs, but I was involved in a lot of investigations to do with child abuse material.
00:12:11.919 --> 00:12:22.879
And this particular one in May of 2012, we did a warrant on this pedophile, and he was just he was just a young, he looked so normal.
00:12:23.039 --> 00:12:27.919
He was getting married, his partner's there, and I'm thinking, we've got the wrong house.
00:12:28.080 --> 00:12:30.320
This is how have we done this?
00:12:30.559 --> 00:12:35.120
And I just said, Look, can I just I need to have a quick look at your computer?
00:12:35.360 --> 00:12:38.320
I was almost going to apologise, you know.
00:12:38.399 --> 00:12:44.879
I'm so sorry, but when I looked at his computer, poor boy, we hadn't got the wrong house.
00:12:44.960 --> 00:12:56.720
And so for two days, I had to, in those days, back in 2012, what we had to do was view all the child abuse material and grade it.
00:12:56.879 --> 00:13:11.360
You know, let's say from one to five, even one is terrible, but this stuff was off the scale, and I did it for two days, and I remember having a response, a reaction that I had no control over.
00:13:11.600 --> 00:13:13.440
It had never happened before.
00:13:13.679 --> 00:13:29.039
And I so for two days I'm in this special room uh viewing this child porn child abuse material, and all of a sudden I just went and I put my hand, I gasped and I thought I was going to be sick.
00:13:29.440 --> 00:13:32.399
And I thought, wow, where did that come from?
00:13:32.639 --> 00:13:43.200
And so I went downstairs and I had a cup of coffee, thinking I could, you know, I and I soldiered on, you know, like suck it up, Norrell.
00:13:43.279 --> 00:13:51.679
You know, this is my and I used to think somebody has to look at this stuff because if somebody doesn't look at it, the people get away with it.
00:13:52.720 --> 00:13:54.960
So I did that for two days.
00:13:55.840 --> 00:14:15.200
And I think looking back, that was probably and they were videos, 1700 child abuse videos, and that wasn't it wasn't photos, and so it was sound, it was voices, it uh it was just horrendous.
00:14:15.600 --> 00:14:32.480
And that was let's say on the Monday and Tuesday, on the Wednesday, I had a committal for a rape, and I was the informant, and I at court I had a lot of trouble getting the informant to court.
00:14:32.559 --> 00:14:39.120
She was a young 16-year-old girl, and she'd been raped by a man and his son, and I couldn't get her to court.
00:14:39.360 --> 00:14:47.679
Well, it was difficult getting her to court, and I sort of almost had to drag her, but I didn't, you know, I put my arm around her and because she's saying I can't do this, Norrell.
00:14:48.000 --> 00:14:55.440
Come on, you know, because if I can't get her to court and give evidence, again, it gets away with it.
00:14:55.519 --> 00:15:01.840
They get away with it, and I I just couldn't bear that thought because this had damaged this young girl so much.
00:15:02.000 --> 00:15:21.759
Anyway, so I get her to court, we're in court, I'm the informant, I'm behind her, I'm listening to the defense, two two defence barristers act really, oh, they were giving her a terrible time, and she was really being hammered by them, and she was really upset.
00:15:21.840 --> 00:15:31.919
And I can remember thinking to myself, this is the part I remember, and pardon me, I have to swear here, but I I said to myself, you know, this is bullshit.
00:15:32.159 --> 00:15:38.480
This young girl, it was like she was being raped all over again, and I felt really responsible for that.
00:15:38.720 --> 00:15:46.720
And the next thing I remember is being over at a court at the court opposite the the uh sorry at a coffee shop opposite the court.
00:15:47.200 --> 00:15:55.039
And I'm having a coffee, and clearly I'm in La La Land, and the court staff came over and said, What are you doing here, Norrell?
00:15:55.759 --> 00:15:57.919
And I thought, what am I doing here?
00:15:58.159 --> 00:16:05.759
I'm I'm running a committal, I've got the victim, I've got witnesses to organise, I've got exhibits to present.
00:16:05.919 --> 00:16:12.080
Uh, you know, it's a it's a really responsible position, and I'm in bloody la la land across at the coffee shop.
00:16:12.240 --> 00:16:16.799
Anyway, I found out later that that was an amnesia event.
00:16:16.960 --> 00:16:21.840
And so what had happened was that my mind just shut down.
00:16:22.080 --> 00:16:24.159
I just couldn't deal with it anymore.
00:16:24.480 --> 00:16:34.480
So that week was the real catalyst, and I struggled on thinking, you know, I can get through this, I'm just tired or whatever.
00:16:34.720 --> 00:16:44.799
And I hung on for about three or four months, and then one Friday afternoon, this young girl came into the the office with her mum.
00:16:45.120 --> 00:16:52.159
She something had happened at school, she'd been like sexually assaulted, and I think she was about 14 or 15.
00:16:52.799 --> 00:17:01.039
And I can remember sitting in the chair listening and thinking, this is terrible, but thinking to myself, you know what?
00:17:01.759 --> 00:17:04.559
I don't give a shit what happened to you.
00:17:05.519 --> 00:17:10.160
And I I remember thinking that that was just so unmeaning.
00:17:10.319 --> 00:17:13.039
I just lost all compassion, all care.
00:17:13.200 --> 00:17:13.920
I didn't care.
00:17:14.799 --> 00:17:17.519
And that's when I knew there was something very wrong.
00:17:17.920 --> 00:17:25.279
And so I went to the doctor on the Monday, and within minutes he diagnosed me with PTSI.
00:17:26.160 --> 00:17:31.599
And I never ever set foot in a police station again.
00:17:32.640 --> 00:17:35.279
Wow, can you tell me what the acronym for PTSI is?
00:17:35.359 --> 00:17:36.640
Because we all know it as PTSD.
00:17:36.720 --> 00:17:39.039
What's the PSTSI transition that you mentioned?
00:17:39.440 --> 00:17:42.000
We're trying to change the the thought.
00:17:42.160 --> 00:17:51.200
It's post-traumatic stress disorder is has a very negative, that word disorder has a very negative connotation.
00:17:51.359 --> 00:18:04.880
So what the powers it be are trying to change is to PTSI, so post-traumatic stress injury, so that that negativity isn't in in that acronym.
00:18:05.119 --> 00:18:21.119
And I and I I mean I'm so used to saying PTSD, and I so I go between PTSI and PTSD, but I I think that's really important that a disorder does have you know some pretty negative connotations to it.
00:18:21.279 --> 00:18:23.839
So that's why we're trying to call it PTSI.
00:18:24.000 --> 00:18:26.799
It's an injury, just like a you know, broken leg.
00:18:27.279 --> 00:18:31.359
Absolutely, and no one came into the force with that in relation to their job.
00:18:31.440 --> 00:18:39.920
And so it is, you know, and in your case, it just sounded like you'd absolutely reached breaking point and just complete overload and you know couldn't function anymore.
00:18:40.079 --> 00:18:47.519
What was it like the first time you stepped out into the community after you'd your career had finished, you'd you'd resigned, and you walked out into the community as a civilian?
00:18:47.599 --> 00:18:48.880
What did that feel like?
00:18:49.920 --> 00:18:50.240
Terrible.
00:18:51.039 --> 00:18:52.160
Oh, terrible.
00:18:52.880 --> 00:18:54.319
Yeah, yeah.
00:18:54.480 --> 00:19:05.359
I felt I I mean, it took me a long time to get back into the community when I felt normal again.
00:19:05.759 --> 00:19:08.240
I actually didn't want to go out into the community.
00:19:08.319 --> 00:19:21.440
I'd wanted to stay at home, wallow in my own self-pity, wallow in wallow is probably a strong word, but I what I I couldn't deal with.
00:19:22.400 --> 00:19:24.559
I had so many triggers.
00:19:25.200 --> 00:19:27.440
I didn't want to see little kids.
00:19:27.599 --> 00:19:31.119
Everywhere you go, you see little kids, little babies.
00:19:31.519 --> 00:19:36.880
So I avoided social interaction with just about anyone.
00:19:37.119 --> 00:19:39.759
People would ask me, you know, why I was off work.
00:19:39.839 --> 00:19:41.200
I didn't really know what to say.
00:19:41.279 --> 00:19:55.680
I had to lie, and that was very uncomfortable for me because I wasn't prepared to admit that I, you know, was having some mental health leave, really, because I was always thinking that I would be able to get back.
00:19:55.839 --> 00:20:02.799
I don't know what I was thinking, like that's crazy stuff, really, after, but I didn't realise how sick I was until I did a couple of courses.
00:20:03.119 --> 00:20:06.720
But I didn't want to go out, I didn't want to see anyone.
00:20:06.880 --> 00:20:09.039
I was triggered by, as I said, little kids.
00:20:09.200 --> 00:20:10.240
Kids are everywhere.
00:20:10.400 --> 00:20:12.000
I'm triggered by dogs.
00:20:12.240 --> 00:20:14.240
Everyone I know has got a dog.
00:20:14.559 --> 00:20:21.200
I'm triggered by like just the sound of a police car or seeing the police.
00:20:21.359 --> 00:20:29.359
It used to make me feel so sad because I loved policing, the majority of it.
00:20:29.680 --> 00:20:31.920
And I loved what it stood for.
00:20:32.079 --> 00:20:36.720
It was like, you know, your chest had sort of, I don't know, I felt very proud.
00:20:37.039 --> 00:20:48.319
And by leaving and not being there, I felt I'd lost everything that I loved, everything that meant something to me.
00:20:48.799 --> 00:20:51.519
And I didn't want to be reminded by all that.
00:20:51.599 --> 00:20:55.039
So I really became a you know, a bit of a shell.
00:20:55.839 --> 00:20:57.839
It was 50% of your life at that point, yeah.
00:20:57.920 --> 00:21:03.519
It must have taken a while to how much 50 10 and to rest.
00:21:03.920 --> 00:21:04.240
80%.
00:21:05.200 --> 00:21:09.599
I'm not very good at the math, but um it was 27 years ago with that, of your life.
00:21:09.680 --> 00:21:19.359
And it must have taken a while to drop the drop the shield, you know, also because there's police, we do guard ourselves and we we know we're I think my my thing in the job was hypervigilance.
00:21:19.440 --> 00:21:20.160
I still have it now.
00:21:20.240 --> 00:21:22.079
I know who's behind me and if I can take them.
00:21:23.039 --> 00:21:25.200
I'm always aware of everything that's going on.
00:21:25.279 --> 00:21:37.599
And you know, I remember being at a park once and there was a concert and seeing little girl about three dancing like she'd seen Madonna Britney Spears dancing, but going up to strange men and dancing like that, very sexualized in front of them.
00:21:37.759 --> 00:21:41.359
And I was just, I could not enjoy the concert because their parents weren't paying attention.
00:21:41.519 --> 00:21:45.359
The men were kind of pushing her away, but I thought she gets the wrong person, you know.
00:21:45.440 --> 00:21:51.200
Like, so did it take a while to also just, you know, feel it's hard because policing never leaves you.
00:21:51.279 --> 00:21:54.400
I still stand a certain way and I still I don't have a badge anymore.
00:21:54.480 --> 00:21:56.640
So when I see injustice, I'm not a bystander.
00:21:56.720 --> 00:22:01.119
I think I make good choices, but did it take a while for that to kind of Shift as well?
00:22:02.160 --> 00:22:05.200
I d I actually don't think it's ever really shifted.
00:22:05.359 --> 00:22:16.720
I mean, it's probably it's dissipated, but even now, like, you know, if I'm with my sisters and we go somewhere and I'll go, there's a, you know, there's a dodgy one.
00:22:17.039 --> 00:22:19.119
What do you mean there's a dodgy one?
00:22:19.440 --> 00:22:36.880
Anyway, I reckon nine times out of ten, I'm pretty spot on, but uh I am very I'm still very hyper-vigilant, but I'm not as bad as I was, but hyper-vigilance is something I don't think we ever can you know get rid of, really.
00:22:37.119 --> 00:22:45.359
It's yeah, but no, I I still feel I'm very I'm always watching.
00:22:45.680 --> 00:23:03.359
I really can't turn off in but in saying that I'm not on, let's say, let's say 90, 80% of the time now I'm on, maybe as you said, maybe 50%, I don't know, but it's certainly not as prevalent as it was.
00:23:03.519 --> 00:23:09.920
And you know, and even like now with dogs, with kids, I'm a lot better.
00:23:10.640 --> 00:23:16.960
But like you, you never forget things that you see, but it does get easier, you know.
00:23:17.039 --> 00:23:39.440
I've learned a lot of tools to manage those triggers, though that anxiety, and also I think about four, three, maybe three years ago, I went to a party where there was lots of kids, and I I've always been very hyper-vigilant, like a bit like you, with kids, but also as I said, it's a trigger.
00:23:39.680 --> 00:24:03.200
But this particular party I went to, I remember coming home and actually thinking to myself, I reckon that's the first time I've ever been to a party where there's lots of kids, and I haven't thought terrible things about you know what I'd seen or what might happen to that kid, that little girl, for instance.
00:24:03.440 --> 00:24:06.319
And I thought, wow, that's that's what's that?
00:24:07.119 --> 00:24:07.839
A long time.
00:24:10.960 --> 00:24:11.839
Yeah, yeah.
00:24:12.000 --> 00:24:16.000
So but you know, it it will never go away.
00:24:16.480 --> 00:24:18.240
But it's a lot easier to deal with.
00:24:18.400 --> 00:24:20.480
I've done a lot of work on my mental health.
00:24:20.559 --> 00:24:24.960
I've been, you know, I've seen a psychiatrist, a psychiatrist, a psychologist for a long time.
00:24:25.119 --> 00:24:43.680
I don't see her anymore, but she helped me enormously, as did I don't say a lot of good things about work cover, but work cover was really good with uh they got me into the Austin Hospital, a PTSD course, and that was a game changer for me.
00:24:43.839 --> 00:24:46.480
That made me realize how sick I was.
00:24:46.640 --> 00:24:53.279
That's when I accepted that I was really sick, that I did need help, and that I couldn't do it on my own.
00:24:53.440 --> 00:25:00.960
I couldn't recover to the point I am now on my own, and I needed intervention, professional intervention.
00:25:01.279 --> 00:25:05.599
So that's a very long answer to a very short question.
00:25:06.079 --> 00:25:19.359
No, I think it's a really important point you make too that I have uh the utmost respect for you because you also sought help and you've continued to work on yourself and and you know, make sure that you can still live a fulfilling life after all the the trauma you've experienced.
00:25:19.519 --> 00:25:27.279
Do you find that talking about your career and the things that you that you witnessed and you know uh worked on relives it all the time?
00:25:27.359 --> 00:25:31.279
Or is it like you know, problem what's they saying, a problem shared is a problem half?
00:25:31.359 --> 00:25:34.960
Does it every time you share it with it does it make it less heavy?
00:25:36.319 --> 00:25:49.200
Okay, I find, in fact, because I put up a a shield and I had this facade for so long, now I keep I just want to tell the world.
00:25:49.359 --> 00:25:51.200
I don't want to keep it a secret anymore.
00:25:51.279 --> 00:25:56.640
I'm sick of keeping secret what I saw and how it affected me.
00:25:56.799 --> 00:26:05.039
However, I still can't tell there are things that I have seen that I still couldn't tell anyone.
00:26:05.440 --> 00:26:16.400
In fact, I remember seeing a psychiatrist through work cover, and I did tell her something that I had never told anyone else.
00:26:16.640 --> 00:26:24.480
And she put her hand up and she said, Norrell, I can't, I can't listen to that, I can't deal with it.
00:26:24.720 --> 00:26:40.480
And that made me realize that it was I mean, I knew it was bad, but you do sort of take a few steps and think I'm gonna tell people just to sort of get it out of my own head, and that's what happens.
00:26:40.640 --> 00:26:59.920
So you do have to, I still have to be very careful, but also I suppose I get asked a lot about you know my husband, um, my family, you know, what how have I did I tell them and and why didn't they see the signs, let's say.
00:27:00.400 --> 00:27:08.400
But how can you take somebody into such a cruel, traumatic, grief-ridden world?
00:27:08.720 --> 00:27:09.519
Why would you?
00:27:09.759 --> 00:27:13.119
I don't want to take my husband and my family into that world.
00:27:13.359 --> 00:27:24.640
So again, so I suppose that that facade, it's pretty much gone, but there's still little things that are very, very distressing to me, but I could never ever tell anybody.
00:27:24.720 --> 00:27:33.599
And that the opportunity I did get to tell that uh psychologist or psychiatrist, even she couldn't deal with it.
00:27:33.759 --> 00:27:54.480
So, you know, it it uh there's still stuff there, but I just want to share I want to shine a light on how tough it is for police and first responders, not just police, like we're talking Ambos, nurses, doctors, fieries.
00:27:55.440 --> 00:27:57.599
It's really, really tough.
00:27:58.160 --> 00:28:01.279
And I'm sick of keeping it a secret.
00:28:02.400 --> 00:28:06.000
Yeah, I I absolutely understand what you're saying about what you choose to share.
00:28:06.240 --> 00:28:06.480
Same.
00:28:06.640 --> 00:28:14.480
There's some things that I've never told people because I think generally friends and family and general public, they can't cope with hearing that stuff, you know.
00:28:14.720 --> 00:28:18.960
And part of the reason I just wanted to leave in the end was I didn't want to know what people did to each other anymore.
00:28:19.200 --> 00:28:23.359
I had a very strong moment like you did where you went to the party three years ago when I've when I've resigned.
00:28:23.440 --> 00:28:26.640
I was on the bus about a week later and I saw a grandfather with his grandkids.
00:28:26.799 --> 00:28:32.160
And I remember consciously thinking, wow, this is the first time I haven't suspected he's probably doing something to them that he shouldn't.
00:28:32.240 --> 00:28:36.480
And just and I just smiled because they were interacting really lovely and they're just a little family on an outing.
00:28:36.559 --> 00:28:42.079
And I thought, wow, I'd become so I looked at everyone with suspicion and you know, I think you have to have balance.
00:28:42.160 --> 00:28:43.359
It's you've got to be aware.
00:28:43.440 --> 00:28:45.680
And a lot of people live an unaware life where they're not.
00:28:45.839 --> 00:28:54.079
I'm like, watch your handbag, love it's in your shopping trolley and you're not looking, you've got to be aware, but there's also too much awareness where you're clutching it to your chest the whole time and everyone's gonna rob you.
00:28:54.319 --> 00:28:55.920
So I think you've got to find that balance in there.
00:28:56.240 --> 00:29:03.279
What was it like watching your your especially your career story and part of your life story back in the police woman in your film?
00:29:03.599 --> 00:29:08.880
Oh really, to be honest, I feel really proud.
00:29:10.240 --> 00:29:32.960
There's some parts that I still really well, cringe is the wrong word, but some really personal situations that I share that I still feel really embarrassed about, but I feel I have to, it's not just uh 50% of what I feel or what I know.
00:29:33.119 --> 00:29:37.200
I feel if I'm going to do this, I'm gonna do it properly.
00:29:37.359 --> 00:29:48.000
And for instance, I talk quite openly about being uh at the bottom of the I wasn't academic at all.
00:29:48.240 --> 00:30:07.279
I don't know if I've got an academic bone in my body, but I really struggled out at the academy and to actually have up the results, we show the results on the policewoman the results, and I'm down the bottom, and I still feel really embarrassed about that.
00:30:07.839 --> 00:30:27.680
But I also think I also want to give people motivation or inspiration that you don't have to be academically gifted to be successful or to do something, okay, you might have to work a bit harder than some that are gifted in that sense.
00:30:27.759 --> 00:30:36.960
But then again, on the other side, I was probably, I don't know about gifted, but the physical side was really easy for me.
00:30:37.119 --> 00:30:41.359
Whereas some people, you know, they failed because they couldn't do the physical stuff.
00:30:41.680 --> 00:30:44.640
So that was a very confronting.
00:30:44.880 --> 00:30:46.960
I found that really difficult to admit.
00:30:47.200 --> 00:30:51.680
I referred to the word that I felt dumb.
00:30:52.000 --> 00:30:55.519
That's a terrible word, but that's how I felt.
00:30:55.759 --> 00:31:04.559
And by being last in the exam results so often, it almost confirmed how I felt.
00:31:04.720 --> 00:31:12.160
That I found that really difficult to share, but also I felt it was really important.
00:31:12.559 --> 00:31:20.400
So, but I feel the main emotion I feel is just incredibly proud.
00:31:20.559 --> 00:31:26.880
But also I'm really glad that people now know my story and they might understand why.
00:31:27.039 --> 00:31:36.240
Like I can remember being at exit at it at an exercise class when I first left and just starting to get out into the public again.
00:31:36.559 --> 00:31:43.279
And a little bay uh a little girl brought along a doll to the exercise class.
00:31:43.440 --> 00:31:56.400
And I remember looking at it, and I I thought I was going to be sick, and I had to say to the the guy that runs it, could you ask the lady to put that, have her child put that doll away?
00:31:56.559 --> 00:32:01.039
I said, It's just a huge trigger for me, and so he did.
00:32:04.400 --> 00:32:06.079
Yeah, I've lost my train of thought.
00:32:06.160 --> 00:32:07.279
I do that a lot.
00:32:07.599 --> 00:32:08.240
Oh, me too.
00:32:08.480 --> 00:32:10.240
I go off on all these tangents.
00:32:10.480 --> 00:32:11.519
I blame just being a woman.
00:32:12.880 --> 00:32:14.160
There's so much in here.
00:32:14.559 --> 00:32:18.640
Um, you're talking about the you went to the exercise class and the doll triggered you.
00:32:18.720 --> 00:32:20.400
And I'm not sure that wasn't in the film.
00:32:20.480 --> 00:32:25.200
That bit wasn't in the film, but um, oh, there's so much that there's so much that's not in the film.
00:32:25.519 --> 00:32:26.079
I can imagine.
00:32:26.160 --> 00:32:28.480
Did she respond favourably to that when you made that request?
00:32:28.559 --> 00:32:29.359
Did she put the doll away?
00:32:29.440 --> 00:32:30.079
Did she call it?
00:32:30.319 --> 00:32:33.119
I didn't ask the the the guy that runs it, Mick.
00:32:33.599 --> 00:32:38.079
He asked her if she would mind putting it away because it upsets Narrell or something.
00:32:38.319 --> 00:32:41.119
She didn't ask any questions and she did it.
00:32:41.680 --> 00:32:42.000
Wow.
00:32:42.240 --> 00:32:44.559
Can I tell you a secret that I've never told anyone?
00:32:44.640 --> 00:32:47.759
And probably 40 people know because they were there, but that I've never told anyone.
00:32:47.920 --> 00:32:50.240
I came second last in my police academy.
00:32:50.400 --> 00:32:51.759
Now I excelled at school.
00:32:51.920 --> 00:33:00.960
I came in the top 5% for English in the state, and I loved school, but just the law, yet you know what you have that doesn't matter about what schools are in paper.
00:33:01.039 --> 00:33:02.799
You have empathy and you were committed.
00:33:02.960 --> 00:33:16.319
And you know, most of the I would like to say, and you know, some members of general public may have differing opinions, but I I like to believe that well, the people I worked with, certainly in my own experience, were good police officers and were committed and passionate, like anything, a cross-section of the community.
00:33:16.400 --> 00:33:21.680
There are some people who are lazier than others and you know, not of the same ethics as others.
00:33:21.920 --> 00:33:36.480
You certainly weren't lazy, you put yourself at the coal face, you really cared, you burdened that you know, shouldered that responsibility immensely, and you had just an empathy and a passion and a compassion that you can't get on a test by ticking true or false answers.
00:33:36.640 --> 00:33:39.599
So I came second last and you know, look at us now.
00:33:39.680 --> 00:33:40.480
We're doing really well.
00:33:40.559 --> 00:33:41.359
So exactly.
00:33:42.000 --> 00:33:42.720
We're fine.
00:33:42.880 --> 00:33:43.680
Um I like.
00:33:44.240 --> 00:33:44.720
Sorry, Chris.
00:33:45.039 --> 00:33:47.200
Can I just can I just on that?
00:33:47.440 --> 00:33:48.000
Yeah.
00:33:48.400 --> 00:33:55.839
With policing, a lot of it, most of it, about when you become a senior constable, a detective, a sergeant.
00:33:55.920 --> 00:34:00.559
It's all about exams and how clever you are.
00:34:00.960 --> 00:34:06.640
That's why I really like really my whole police career, like I went for sergeant's exams.
00:34:06.799 --> 00:34:18.480
I think I would have made a great sergeant, a really good sergeant, but I couldn't get past the exams because I just used to get so anxious and I I just I'd go to water.
00:34:19.119 --> 00:34:32.000
So but I think it's a bit, I I don't agree with the fact that because you can be very clever, you can rise to all these ranks, but you can be a terrible people person.
00:34:32.239 --> 00:34:50.079
And I have had my fair share of really uh clever sergeants, but they got no idea how to manage people, no idea about really empathy or compassion, but they're brilliant, you know, they're brilliant academically or very good.
00:34:50.239 --> 00:34:51.840
That's what I think is a bit unfair.
00:34:51.920 --> 00:34:53.840
But anyway, I don't know how you get around that.
00:34:54.159 --> 00:34:54.800
Yeah, absolutely.
00:34:54.880 --> 00:35:00.159
They can recite the criminal code, but they don't have communication skills or can't manage a team effectively.
00:35:00.320 --> 00:35:05.039
And to be honest, I think the thing that was my strongest suit, I joined when I was 19 and eight days old.
00:35:05.199 --> 00:35:08.239
So I was the youngest police officer in this in the state for about two years.
00:35:08.400 --> 00:35:16.079
And I remember being at the front desk of the police station and having like 60-year-old people coming in asking me for life advice, like distraught.
00:35:16.239 --> 00:35:18.480
And and like I think I was a mature 19-year-old.
00:35:18.559 --> 00:35:21.280
I had had a bit of life experience, but how much can you have by 19?
00:35:21.360 --> 00:35:26.800
But you know, both my parents have been married three times and I've been to over a dozen schools, and so I had a bit of that.
00:35:26.880 --> 00:35:31.440
But I remember just this is just so strange that they're asking me, you know.
00:35:31.599 --> 00:35:34.000
But communication's always been my strong suit, you know.
00:35:34.079 --> 00:35:40.960
I I know enough to know what, you know, I think you same for you, like you're very personable, you and you seem interested and engaged in people.
00:35:41.039 --> 00:35:45.199
And I think, you know, that makes also a good foundation for a good police officer.
00:35:45.280 --> 00:35:53.280
And just maybe, you know, hopefully the testing has changed these days because the I would much rather a sergeant that no, the same, yeah, still.
00:35:53.599 --> 00:35:54.480
Oh no.
00:35:54.639 --> 00:35:56.239
Yeah, I haven't looked into it.
00:35:56.320 --> 00:36:00.639
I haven't applied, reapplied in not planning to, but um, so I haven't really checked it out.
00:36:00.800 --> 00:36:01.760
That's two of us.
00:36:02.400 --> 00:36:07.760
In in the policewoman, there's an amazing way that your story is told.
00:36:07.840 --> 00:36:17.599
Some of the more some of the jobs you go to that are more intense and graphic, they're presented using a doll's house and little dolls as references to yes, those little dolls.
00:36:18.079 --> 00:36:18.639
There she is.
00:36:19.280 --> 00:36:20.320
Little policewoman's doll.
00:36:20.480 --> 00:36:22.159
Is it is it wood or is it a plastic?
00:36:22.239 --> 00:36:24.480
Like little that's little norel.
00:36:25.119 --> 00:36:27.280
It's actually, isn't it cute?
00:36:27.519 --> 00:36:29.360
Um yeah, yeah.
00:36:29.519 --> 00:36:38.079
That was made by um Claire and Steve Pasvolski, the directors, one of their sons made that on a 3D printer.
00:36:38.320 --> 00:36:42.159
So they painted this, and but it's brilliant.
00:36:42.320 --> 00:36:45.039
Uh initially I wasn't sure about the miniatures.
00:36:45.280 --> 00:36:57.840
It was it's something very, I think pretty unique, but why they did it was so that like at one stage there, they film a woman.
00:36:58.000 --> 00:37:01.760
One of my stories is about a woman that sets herself alight.
00:37:02.079 --> 00:37:06.639
Now, that would be so distressing for the the audience.
00:37:06.800 --> 00:37:36.639
So what they do is they use these, and the there's little miniatures of a lot of things, and what they can do is you can set this little, let's say, a little miniature alight, and it's no, you don't lose the impact, but you certainly don't have that oh, you know, you it's not a person being set alight, it it is a character, caricature, is that right, character, of somebody being set alight.
00:37:36.880 --> 00:37:41.599
So it still gets the message across, but the gore, say, is not there.
00:37:41.840 --> 00:37:43.679
I think it's a brilliant concept.
00:37:43.760 --> 00:37:54.880
And what's happened is there are so the accolades are coming thick and fast about the way that they have managed the the gore side.
00:37:55.039 --> 00:37:56.960
They're not sensationalizing that.
00:37:57.119 --> 00:38:03.519
They're more sensationalizing the emotions that we feel rather than the gore.
00:38:03.599 --> 00:38:06.000
And that's what I think is brilliant.
00:38:06.639 --> 00:38:07.280
Absolutely.
00:38:07.440 --> 00:38:13.360
And I think what else is really clever is the way you tell the stories and they've edited it together.
00:38:13.519 --> 00:38:16.480
It feels like what it's like to be a police officer on shift for me.
00:38:16.559 --> 00:38:22.320
It felt like I'm about to go out on the road and this job's just come in, and then next minute this is happening, and then I've been called back here.
00:38:22.639 --> 00:38:31.519
And watching it, I got the story of the lady that set herself alight, and also the story of the woman that was in the boot of the car will stay with me forever.
00:38:31.920 --> 00:38:34.159
What you went through in those moments will as well.
00:38:34.320 --> 00:38:41.519
But it's I I don't want to turn people off hearing that because the way it is presented is sensitive, it's set done sensitively and with respect.
00:38:41.760 --> 00:38:53.280
And you're right, it's you you telling the story and then using a different reference for the visuals that you know is it's not palatable, but it's it's people can see it and manage it without being traumatized.
00:38:53.360 --> 00:38:55.119
And you know, yeah, I think that was really clever.
00:38:55.440 --> 00:38:57.760
I was gonna ask whose idea it was because I thought it might have been yours.
00:38:57.840 --> 00:38:59.199
I was gonna give you all the credit for using it.
00:38:59.440 --> 00:39:02.000
Oh no, I'm not I'm not that clever, remember?
00:39:02.400 --> 00:39:04.719
No, you've great.
00:39:04.960 --> 00:39:11.840
You also mentioned in the film you you're saying there very clearly that you're sick of holding it all in and you want the public to know what first responders go through.
00:39:12.000 --> 00:39:15.519
What do you hope the public takes away from your film when they watch it?
00:39:19.519 --> 00:39:42.719
I want them to think about first responders, the tough stuff that they deal with, to have a bit of compassion for them, to and probably not even first responders, although that's my my the main one, but just mental health.
00:39:43.280 --> 00:39:45.199
It's not the end of the world.
00:39:45.519 --> 00:39:50.400
You know, if you if you get help, don't do not ignore it like I did.
00:39:50.559 --> 00:39:59.280
Put your head in the sand because I lost what I consider to be the best career in the world because of my pig headedness.
00:39:59.760 --> 00:40:04.960
It's about educating the public that it's nothing to be ashamed of.
00:40:05.280 --> 00:40:11.840
We need to normalize, not stigmatize, mental illness as just another illness.
00:40:12.559 --> 00:40:31.199
And the more that I can educate the the public about mental illness not being a life sentence, like I I have now, yes, I I've you know, we've we've all got scars, everyone's had issues that have happened.
00:40:31.519 --> 00:40:46.239
But you know, if you if you don't think you're traveling too well, trust your instincts, do something about it, do not ignore it because I'm telling like me, it bit me on the bum when I had no idea.
00:40:46.960 --> 00:41:00.960
So I want people to accept, not not treat people like they're you know, they're a pariah, like you know, it's um just have some compassion.
00:41:01.440 --> 00:41:02.480
Yeah, absolutely.
00:41:02.639 --> 00:41:05.280
Um beyond words, I think language is really important.
00:41:05.360 --> 00:41:07.920
So you're mentioning post-traumatic stress injury.
00:41:08.079 --> 00:41:14.320
I even have an issue with the word mental health because you know, mental used to be used as, oh, there she's mental, like crazy.
00:41:14.480 --> 00:41:21.840
And I find, you know, with if I said, Oh, I've got a a brain injury, but people would be like I'd be treated very differently to saying I've got mental health issues, you know.
00:41:22.079 --> 00:41:27.039
There's the the whole maybe there needs to be a whole re-rewrite for some of these things because you're right.
00:41:27.360 --> 00:41:34.559
In fact, I think, I think uh I've I've had a lot of trouble, I agree, saying mental illness.
00:41:34.800 --> 00:41:46.719
Mental health to me, it it's a it's a really big umbrella, but mental illness is like, sorry, but you're crazy, you know, that sort of that attitude, that stigma.
00:41:46.800 --> 00:41:52.639
And that's what I want to try and get out of people's minds.
00:41:52.880 --> 00:41:55.280
That you know, mental illness, okay.
00:41:55.519 --> 00:41:59.440
It's just as I said, it's you're you're unwell.
00:41:59.920 --> 00:42:02.480
It's a chemical brain imbalance, effectively.
00:42:02.559 --> 00:42:04.400
And we take medication for everything else.
00:42:04.480 --> 00:42:09.199
Why wouldn't we take medication for our chemical imbalances in our brain when they go a bit wonky?
00:42:09.280 --> 00:42:11.119
You know, I think that's and it isn't that funny.
00:42:11.280 --> 00:42:20.079
That was something that I avoided for a very long time taking medication because of that stigma.
00:42:20.639 --> 00:42:33.119
But it was a game changer for me, almost a lifesaver to actually accept that maybe maybe the professionals know what they're talking about.
00:42:33.440 --> 00:42:34.880
Maybe I should listen.
00:42:35.039 --> 00:42:41.920
Uh, or I I thought that that thing in my head about medication is like almost like giving in.
00:42:42.400 --> 00:42:44.559
But again, it's been a game changer.
00:42:44.639 --> 00:42:48.880
And I'm, you know, I probably haven't said this, but I'm still on medication.
00:42:49.039 --> 00:42:53.119
I think, oh well, you know, people have a a pill for a headache.
00:42:53.199 --> 00:42:54.000
I don't quite get it.
00:42:54.079 --> 00:42:54.800
What's the difference?
00:42:54.880 --> 00:43:00.800
You know, I've got a pill to, I mean, it's not to make me, it's just to help with the anxiety.
00:43:00.960 --> 00:43:05.599
That's something that I will probably live with for the rest of my life.
00:43:05.840 --> 00:43:09.760
But if something if a little pill can help that, well, so be it.
00:43:09.840 --> 00:43:10.880
I I tried everything.
00:43:11.039 --> 00:43:14.000
I tried natural remedies, I tried everything.
00:43:14.320 --> 00:43:19.119
And having one pill a day, just you know, it helps me.
00:43:19.360 --> 00:43:20.559
Well wouldn't you do it actually?
00:43:21.119 --> 00:43:21.760
Yeah, exactly.
00:43:21.920 --> 00:43:27.039
It's almost it's almost not not doesn't sound too easy too easy because you've had a big journey to get there.
00:43:27.119 --> 00:43:35.119
But and I think that's important if anyone is listening and has some issues with you know mental health or th things in the way that they're thinking or feeling.
00:43:35.360 --> 00:43:37.599
You have choice and control over what you put in your body.
00:43:37.760 --> 00:43:43.119
So you get to can if you have a good find a good doctor and consult on what you know the side effects are and what the pros and cons are.
00:43:43.199 --> 00:43:43.840
And you get to choose.
00:43:43.920 --> 00:43:46.559
It's not just like you whacked on medication and you become a different person.
00:43:46.719 --> 00:43:52.800
It just you know helps you think clearly and and you know, do you feel more yourself on medication now?
00:43:53.280 --> 00:43:54.239
Oh yes.
00:43:54.400 --> 00:43:59.760
Like when I consider, I actually a couple of times my doctor and I have talked.
00:44:00.320 --> 00:44:12.960
About maybe lessening the medication, but you know, he sort of says if you feel good and you are good, why would we muck around along these lines?
00:44:13.039 --> 00:44:14.639
You know, why would we muck around with it?
00:44:14.719 --> 00:44:21.119
And you know, I don't even want to feel like I felt prior to going on medication.
00:44:21.519 --> 00:44:33.360
I was just I was a mess, and the thought of going back to I mean, I don't think I would go back to something, it's a feeling like that because I'm so much better, but why would I take the chance?
00:44:33.519 --> 00:44:34.480
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
00:44:35.119 --> 00:44:46.639
I mean, like for me now, I think I said in the the film in the doco, I honestly don't think I've ever been better mentally in my life than I am now.
00:44:46.800 --> 00:44:57.119
I'm just I'm in a really good place, and you know, the main thing I feel about the DOCO is just immense pride.
00:44:57.679 --> 00:45:09.519
I'm humbled, but I feel like I'm a voice for a lot of people that don't have a voice, and I'm I've got so many police friends that are saying thank you.
00:45:09.760 --> 00:45:18.480
You know, you've just said what I've wanted to say and I can't, and so yeah, it's um it's really rewarding.
00:45:19.280 --> 00:45:21.840
I love that so much that you feel so good.
00:45:22.239 --> 00:45:24.400
Are you doing any public speaking?
00:45:24.480 --> 00:45:31.599
Because I'd love to know what you're doing now, but do you do any public speaking at the police academy to officers coming through or to police units?
00:45:31.760 --> 00:45:34.639
Have they reached out and asked you to come out?
00:45:35.039 --> 00:45:44.079
I've given I've given a couple of talks at the academy, but I get the feeling that maybe I'm a bit too honest.
00:45:44.400 --> 00:45:49.760
I I don't quite know because I haven't had too mans for going back.
00:45:49.920 --> 00:45:52.000
So I would think there's a reason for that.
00:45:52.079 --> 00:45:53.440
I don't know what the reason is.
00:45:53.679 --> 00:45:59.760
It could be a lot of things, but I feel like maybe I'm just a little bit too honest.
00:46:00.480 --> 00:46:07.599
I I don't know, but I do do a lot of keynote presentations which I just love.
00:46:08.639 --> 00:46:19.039
It's funny, like when I was in policing, oh, until I I left policing, public speaking was something that horrified me.
00:46:19.119 --> 00:46:20.559
I was terrible at it.
00:46:20.880 --> 00:46:26.719
I didn't have to do a lot of public speaking, but when I did, I was just oh god, a nervous wreck.
00:46:26.880 --> 00:46:35.199
So when I was sick and I on work cover, I just sort of felt I had the right sort of personality.
00:46:35.599 --> 00:46:41.119
I had the stories I could tell in a funny story, a sad story.
00:46:41.199 --> 00:46:43.599
I just seemed to have the right balance.
00:46:44.000 --> 00:46:55.119
And so I went to do a course with Toastmasters, they're an international uh organization that help you learn to do public speaking.
00:46:55.199 --> 00:47:05.440
They teach you all these little, I don't know, what to do, what not to do, and it unleashed a beast, and that's what started.
00:47:05.679 --> 00:47:09.360
So now it's just funny where it's led.
00:47:09.519 --> 00:47:18.159
Like Toastmasters has led to where I am now to be able to do public speaking, to the DOCO, to do keynotes.
00:47:18.800 --> 00:47:22.320
It is just so fulfilling and rewarding.
00:47:22.480 --> 00:47:32.320
Like the responses I get with my public speaking, with my keynote addresses, really, that's why I do what I do.
00:47:32.480 --> 00:47:33.440
I love it.
00:47:33.920 --> 00:47:35.679
I'm getting the message across.
00:47:35.920 --> 00:47:36.320
Absolutely.
00:47:36.400 --> 00:47:38.719
And I was gonna say, I imagine it would it helps people.
00:47:38.800 --> 00:47:40.400
So you're still helping people.
00:47:40.639 --> 00:47:43.440
You're still helping people in in a very similar way.
00:47:43.599 --> 00:47:48.079
Because everyone's got their story, everyone's got things they're sitting with in those audiences that they're struggling with.
00:47:48.159 --> 00:47:50.559
And I think you're an inspiration in the fact that you sought help.
00:47:50.800 --> 00:47:56.239
You make, excuse me, you make no secret of the fact that you're on medication, there's no shame in any of that.
00:47:56.320 --> 00:48:01.039
You're actually putting yourself first and looking after yourself, which certainly as women, I think we don't do enough of.
00:48:01.199 --> 00:48:08.239
We get we're so worried about if my partner sneezes, I'm like, off to the doctor, whereas my leg will fall off before I'll think or maybe I should go and get it checked, you know.
00:48:10.000 --> 00:48:12.400
Not self-care like showering, but self-care with health.
00:48:12.480 --> 00:48:17.599
I'll, you know, absolutely too busy to go to the doctor for my leg, but it's dragging behind me.
00:48:17.840 --> 00:48:19.599
What are you working on now moving forward?
00:48:19.679 --> 00:48:20.800
What have you got coming up in the future?
00:48:20.880 --> 00:48:22.719
I know you've got the films out on the 5th of November.
00:48:22.880 --> 00:48:25.280
Do you have some exciting things planned around that?
00:48:26.000 --> 00:48:29.440
Uh, we've got um oh no, not really.
00:48:29.519 --> 00:48:32.400
I mean, we've got screenings, you know.
00:48:32.639 --> 00:48:35.119
I sort of feel like, isn't this weird?
00:48:35.280 --> 00:48:39.199
I'm 67 and I have got a new career.
00:48:39.360 --> 00:48:41.599
Like who would have thought?
00:48:41.760 --> 00:48:50.800
Not me, but I just I don't know what the future holds, to be honest, Alex, but it's really exciting.
00:48:51.440 --> 00:48:55.280
I am I'm just living the dream to be honest.
00:48:55.519 --> 00:49:00.079
I I'm loving the response that I'm getting.
00:49:00.239 --> 00:49:03.519
I feel I just feel really good.
00:49:03.599 --> 00:49:04.880
I I keep coming back to it.
00:49:04.960 --> 00:49:15.039
I just feel really proud that I am where I am and that people seem to resonate with what I'm saying and how I'm saying it.
00:49:15.280 --> 00:49:23.679
I just myself and I I love the fact that people are liking me for who I am and what I represent.
00:49:24.159 --> 00:49:24.559
I love that.
00:49:24.719 --> 00:49:28.000
I don't know if you can tell, you just made me tear up a bit then because I you look so happy.
00:49:28.079 --> 00:49:41.920
Your eyes are full of life and joy, and when you're talking about what you do now and how much you love it, you actually genuinely look happy, and we've just met, but I'm so thrilled that this is your path and after everything you've been through, and also the amazing service you gave the state of Victoria for all those years.
00:49:42.000 --> 00:49:49.599
You know, you really sacrificed a big part of your own life and yourself, you know, and that you had to, you know, claw back afterwards.
00:49:49.760 --> 00:49:52.400
How can we support your work and where can we find you online?
00:49:53.840 --> 00:49:57.440
You can listen to my podcast, Norel Fraser Interviews.
00:49:57.679 --> 00:50:14.639
You know, in in my podcast, and that's another opportunity that a sliding door moment that came up that I wasn't expecting, but it's grown, and now I love the fact that it's true crime, obviously, but it's all different sorts of crime.
00:50:14.800 --> 00:50:26.480
It's the witnesses, the victims, people, families that have been affected by crime, uh, actual offenders I've had offenders on, psychologists, uh academics, criminologists.
00:50:26.719 --> 00:50:28.159
I just love that.
00:50:28.239 --> 00:50:34.079
So if people could have a listen to my podcast, uh, I give a voice to a lot of people that don't have a voice.
00:50:34.239 --> 00:50:35.840
That's my real passion.
00:50:36.719 --> 00:50:55.760
But also, it's if they look up, if they Google www.dot, and in no nothing in between, thepolicewoman.com.au, uh, they will find where all the screenings are, uh, where it's being shown, when.
00:50:56.320 --> 00:50:59.039
So look up the policewoman.
00:50:59.199 --> 00:51:04.639
Uh, google thepolicewoman.com.au, and you'll you'll find everything that you need.
00:51:05.679 --> 00:51:08.960
And I really implore people to seek out this film and go and see it.
00:51:09.119 --> 00:51:15.599
I believe that the popcorn panel said it's an innovative and insightful look at the physical and mental toll of law enforcement, and it got a very high ranking.
00:51:15.679 --> 00:51:17.519
So it comes highly recommended.
00:51:17.679 --> 00:51:19.679
And thank you so much for your time today.
00:51:19.760 --> 00:51:20.639
I really appreciate it.
00:51:20.719 --> 00:51:23.440
Thank you for sharing your story and thank you for your service.
00:51:23.519 --> 00:51:26.480
And just I'm absolutely thrilled, and I can't wait to see what you do next.
00:51:26.559 --> 00:51:29.679
Because you're right, it's it's just every day it just begins again, doesn't it?
00:51:29.760 --> 00:51:30.559
And it just takes off.
00:51:30.639 --> 00:51:32.880
So, all the best with everything, and thank you.
00:51:33.119 --> 00:51:34.960
Thanks for the opportunity, Alex.
00:51:35.199 --> 00:51:35.840
You're welcome.
00:51:35.920 --> 00:51:36.800
Thank you so much.
00:51:37.039 --> 00:51:37.760
Thanks.
00:51:41.119 --> 00:51:42.960
The popcorn panel.
