Breaking Up with Platforms: Boycotts, Billionaires and Fascist Creeps.

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[SPEAKER_00]: The thing that I keep returning to is that I still have autonomy about the ways that I resist every day.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Welcome to Papikaanda.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I'm Shannon Perez Darby here with my pop culture bestie Tajmika Torak and today we're talking about how living under fascism is impacting our relationship to pop culture.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So that's yeah, we're we're going through a breakup right now, it's been rough.
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[SPEAKER_02]: is rough.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Every break-up hits in a different way and this one, I'm not the hardest break-up I've ever had.
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[SPEAKER_00]: No, definitely not the hardest.
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[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I can't say it is because I did just recently get divorced.
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[SPEAKER_02]: We'll see what makes the edit for hardest breakups between the WEC do eggs for many many years ago or my most recent eggs who we broke up on a four-hour car ride.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Actually, we're at live ends of the podcast for swanshing.
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[SPEAKER_02]: No.
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[SPEAKER_02]: We need to help camp in like four hours away from home.
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[SPEAKER_02]: We drove out there and then that seemed like the convenient time to surprise break-up and then we had to drive.
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[SPEAKER_00]: it was not ideal.
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[SPEAKER_00]: No, no, you know, actually I think that might be your worst one.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So it was not ideal.
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[SPEAKER_00]: If Spotify were a whole human or like, who-who were a whole human that you had to be locked in a car with?
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[SPEAKER_00]: But I mean, in some ways, that's how it feels though, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Cause like these platforms and the way that I use them when I'm traveling, when I'm doing my laundry, when I'm gardening, it's a companion.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It sort of is like a disembodied part, like my little robot that I bring around to let me listen to things that I enjoy listening to.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And it's been an interesting ride to try to figure out what am I gonna do?
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[SPEAKER_02]: What's going to happen exactly so touch me can I both broke up with Hulu and Disney and potentially more platforms to come to be determined I know we don't know So the behind this episode is that you know touch me can I've been talking about what are pops culture landscape has been looking like particularly what our relationship to TV is looking like
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[SPEAKER_02]: in the current conditions of our world of our country.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And just this fascist creep, right?
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[SPEAKER_02]: The way that fascism is like the boiling frog, just like the temperature gets turned up, turned up, turned up.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And I notice I have, for maybe the first time in my life, been struggling with TV, been disinterested, been actively bored by it.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And actually not just TV, podcast and TV are probably the primary way I take in information and pop culture
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[SPEAKER_02]: still holds from for me.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So let's see what happens when it gets fun out by our American overlords, but I won't have fully those for it.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So they might ruin that too.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And it's not interesting to me.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I have really been finding I have to adapt how I take it.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Like the companion, right?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Like podcast or companion, as a garden, as I go about my day, it's a feeling of like how I have fun, how I decompress.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And my decompression tool is not decompressing.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It's not doing the task.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not feeling joy.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not feeling silliness.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And I do believe that it's directly connected to living under fascism.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And so that is our topic for today.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe we can talk first about breaking up with Hulu.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I feel like I can't talk about breaking up with Hulu without talking about my sense of that I could have or should have broken up with any number of these platforms a million years ago.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It's going to be an analogy actually for every relationship of my life because that relationship I just talked about mine the primary takeaway was that I stayed one year or two long and that I was like And then I most just like we can make it work.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Let's just adjust.
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[SPEAKER_02]: No, I can just think of another way We can make it work until
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[SPEAKER_02]: until I'm just like crushed, crushed, crushed, and there's no other reason but to leave.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So that's something to think about.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it does.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It feels like that, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Where it's like, there have always been problems with these platforms.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I remember when there was a whole beef about, oh, what is her name, the white lady that everybody loves?
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[SPEAKER_00]: through Barrymore, Kelly Clarkson.
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[SPEAKER_00]: No, she's like a social sign.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Burn-A-Brown, Burn-A-Brown.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Burn-A-Brown.
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[SPEAKER_02]: That's fun to be this white woman when people generally seem to like, yeah, she's like the most quotable white woman.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, it's because we had the episode where we talked about, you know, sort of, Burn-A-Brown's cancellation.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And, yeah.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and so when I think about Burn-A-Brown, choosing to stay on Spotify when everyone was asking her to leave because Joe Rogan was on it.
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[SPEAKER_00]: You know, we were hosting on Spotify at that time too, and I'm like, I don't know how to figure out when is the right time to leave a platform behind, you know, because I also make money through this right like not obviously not this not this to be clear.
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[SPEAKER_02]: This is a hobby.
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[SPEAKER_02]: You actually pay money to do this.
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[SPEAKER_02]: We just ready when you make zero dollars.
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[SPEAKER_02]: We pay money to provide this to you.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, I'm so sorry.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Let me be clear.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I create content sometimes, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: And even if I don't make money here on our most expensive friendship hobby, I people hear my voice and maybe find other ways to support me.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So like every time I unplug myself from another platform, I am again distancing myself from the ability to be found.
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[SPEAKER_00]: and I have already had that experience as a non-profit, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Every time we moved more towards a laboratory framework, we unplugged ourselves from a grant possibility or donor possibility that is more mainstream and is considered more safe.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I find myself having like this internal dialogue
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[SPEAKER_00]: Trying to figure out what is the way that I continue to do my work in a visible way which feels really, really important right now, especially as people are working hard to make everything we do less visible both people who are who we've considered like.
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[SPEAKER_00]: our political enemies to people who are like technically on our side, theoretically, to me, that feels like an area of privilege that I can utilize.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, I am not someone's employee.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I don't have a board that I have to run things by.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I could just do whatever I want, which is my preferred.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, honestly, it's my ideal situation.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I'm a couple years into doing whatever I want, and I keep saying, I don't know if I can go back.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I might have to some
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[SPEAKER_00]: I need people to continue to be invested in supporting me because like as I'm making these choices, I feel like Jerry McGuire, who's coming with me?
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[SPEAKER_00]: I got my goal, fish and a bag.
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[SPEAKER_00]: and your passion's beat, let's go.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I'm like, I'm ready to walk out, bitch, let's go.
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[SPEAKER_00]: But like, who's coming though?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Cause like, I mean, I still need people to find me in a hire me that are not people that need me to work for free.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Although I love them, love them, bless them.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And I truly believe those relationships have led to the things that pay me.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And also, I'm film nervous.
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[SPEAKER_02]: This makes me think about something I heard Miriam Cobb to say, as a quick aside, the 1 million experiments podcast or spare media, I believe puts it together and, you know, Miriam comes on the 1 million experiments idea is like the vision of Miriam's and then of course she collaborates with a bunch of folks.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So they have the podcast and then they have Miriam come on at different times and they have the cute little audio clip.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It's like Miriam's voice is being like, it's just true.
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[SPEAKER_02]: They could done a cute little thing about every time someone's like, Miriam Cobb says,
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[SPEAKER_02]: Miriam Cobb said in I think a pandemic virtual session I went to organizing strategy that we have currently gotten out of practice with is being in charge of your own contacts, right?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Like having a mailing list building that up, if meta of collapses tomorrow, can you actually be in relationship with the folks around you if you're just relying on Instagram and actually being able to build up being in contact with you?
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[SPEAKER_02]: You know, when I came up, oh my god, it makes me sound so old now.
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[SPEAKER_02]: When I started doing organizing in the 90s,
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[SPEAKER_02]: It's a very young person, but like still, you know, in the 90s and early 2000s, like that was very much how you were building your networks with such an important part.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And then as the internet took over so much of how we own relationship with each other, I can see how easily it's like fall into the wayside.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And I started doing that with the various projects I do, so mandatory reporting is not neutral, accountable communities, consortium.
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[SPEAKER_02]: being like, oh, I should probably have a plan about how I'm in contact with people.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And it just takes a discipline to do.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And now with the had end family policing book coming out and really thinking about like how important it is, just be able to reach people who you know want to be in relationship with you and actually just like do the discipline of maintaining those lists and seeing how important that is.
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[SPEAKER_02]: You know, we have the Seattle book launch that will have already happened by the time this comes out.
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[SPEAKER_02]: The primary way that we are getting folks to turn out to that is through Instagram.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And just so the point that you're making, you know, we have 100 people or SVP right now.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And that's mostly through Instagram.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And I really think about, you know, what is this tension around that is a way that we're staying in relation with folks while the parent company is in direct tension with my values.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And people unsubscribe.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I definitely have, you know, a newsletter, like literally the lowest volume because as we have mentioned many times before.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I literally will forget there's no monthly newsletter.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I don't have the time or the energy for that.
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[SPEAKER_00]: That's what happens with me at a time of 40.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, I said, I look four years.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So, well, follow you.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I'm like, hey guys, I'm still alive.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Just in case you're a curious, and here are some things I've been doing, but like, no one is getting wild batches of emails for me.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I know people who send out weekly newsletters, and I'm like, oh, no, no, no.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I don't want that.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I don't want to do that.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I can't do that.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I know I can't commit to that.
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[SPEAKER_00]: No, I want no part of that.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And even when I'm sending out regular to my patrons, I literally have a tab always open, not in my brain.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And yes, we all know I already have a lot of tabs open, but I have one that's literally for shared learning and I'll just drop a link over there where I'm like, Oh, this is interesting.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Some other people might find this interesting and that's it, because I just don't have the capacity to be thinking beyond that.
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[SPEAKER_00]: all of that to say, even with the intention of creating community or people that you can get a hold of, people are not interacting with their emails in the same way.
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[SPEAKER_00]: We are in a situation where it is very likely that we will find ourselves in many crises, where being able to choose who community is and what the belief system is is very unlikely.
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[SPEAKER_00]: and I have been having a lot of conversations with myself mainly about what it means to have to do that.
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[SPEAKER_00]: If I'm in a situation and I am likely to need help or support, I have Shannon, who is my friend, a million miles away, full day minimum to get to you.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it would be so happy to help me.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And also, I am in a neighborhood that I will likely need to tap in to resources that may or may not be people that I trust, like agree with, want to organize with, I may even think they're dangerous and I don't know that I will have any choices.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And in some ways, I can see this area that is created a lot by social media that allows misinformation to just explode.
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[SPEAKER_00]: My optimistic side tells me that one to one relationship regardless of what it is rooted in or based upon changes us it distills things down to what is true because we can see it standing there in front of us.
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[SPEAKER_00]: versus what has been such a theoretical conversation for people in terms of literacy, both political and otherwise, in terms of how we were raised and what our faith is, it allows us to alienate people.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And of course, I'm mostly talking about the right.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I think that what has been also difficult is like, I would still like your children to have benefits, even though you're a fucking shit heel, I want you to have a good life and health care.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And I think the opposite is true on the side of politics that is conservative.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And we can see that.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's clear.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's fucking clear.
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[SPEAKER_00]: They're trying to starvists right now.
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[SPEAKER_00]: My hope is that this somehow makes that less possible and less believable.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I'm under to talk just a little bit more about the decision to break up with Hulu and Disney, so in September of 2025, we saw that ABC and its corporate parent, which is ultimately their own by Walt Disney suspended production of the late night talk show Jimmy Kimmel live.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And so this was following the killing of Charlie Kirk and in his monologue, he's making fun of Donald Trump, he's not even talking about Charlie Kirk really like it's in a larger piece about the killing of garlic work, but it's a very mild thing about Donald Trump and then like.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Cry babies do, they lost their minds, right?
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[SPEAKER_02]: And so there was both pressure from the Trump administration to ABC, as well as the FCC chairman, Brendan Carr, basically openly threatening ABC and it's affiliates with their license that ability to put out television on the public channels.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And we saw it was a calling to boycott to cancel your Hulu subscription and Disney at pretty massive scales.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And we saw it was that it was very successful, right?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, well, to me, you know, there's a lot of different blowby blows, but ultimately Jimmy Kim alive is back on the air.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It was a pretty short time.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So in that time, you know, Danny and I were talking were like, yeah, we got to do it.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I do want to say just a couple things about boycotts and how I was taught as an organizer.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I do think boycotts are really, really powerful tools and actually tools, I think we're under utilizing, especially under capitalism.
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[SPEAKER_02]: One of the only thing capitalism cares about is it's ability to get your money.
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[SPEAKER_02]: if you can organize with others to stop people in power from getting money, they care about that.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And they care about doing things just to the scale to get your money back.
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[SPEAKER_02]: They don't care about the underlying values necessarily.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But we can tip them in certain directions if we are organized about how we spend our money.
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[SPEAKER_02]: This feels a little dire to me.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I wish it was different, but I actually think it might be one of our only tools that we have to actually control something they care about, which is our money.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And so what I was taught is the reason the boy cuts are valuable is that you have a case, you say we will boy cut you until you do blank and you make it really clear that when they do blank, you will support them again.
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[SPEAKER_02]: That's the value of boy cuts.
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[SPEAKER_02]: As we've gone along, it's gotten a little foggy about actually having a central ask and then being clear when that ask has been met because part of the power of it is that you will return right is the control of when you will return and so every time I see a call for a boycott that doesn't have a clear ask and then doesn't actually have as willing to return to the thing once the ask has been met I get curious about that.
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[SPEAKER_02]: You know, my who lose still canceled Jimmy Kimmel's back on the air I'm sort of thinking about it's a slightly different thing and it's a little bit what you were already talking about when an entity keeps acting bad and against your interests you can also just be like no thanks at some point I'm just like I don't need to keep doing this with you it doesn't need to be like a whole to die don't need to organize with people I just be like hey that was enough you're moving in a way that's not working for me and so I'm just going to say no thanks.
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[SPEAKER_02]: one of the things I want on the left for us to be a sharper about our strategies, and actually a little sharper about our language.
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[SPEAKER_02]: You know, what is a boycott?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Because again, boycotts are really important, and I'll participate them in all times, but part of the powers that we are willing to return, and I just, I'm sitting with that because ABC, Disney, we're able to make light adjustments, right?
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[SPEAKER_02]: And they didn't necessarily just were like, we were wrong.
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[SPEAKER_02]: They were like, well, Jimmy apologized and we've just been in conversation with him.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And no point in where they were like, hey, that was not okay for the Trump administration, we're resisting, you know?
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[SPEAKER_02]: And also, I'm not telling you sure we were clear about what our ask was.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Because it wasn't exactly put Jimmy Kimmel back on AR, right?
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[SPEAKER_02]: The ask is like, the federal government doesn't get to decide that if you criticize somebody in power, they will remove your ability to speak about it in public.
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[SPEAKER_02]: That's the principle, right?
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[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm not sure we got clear.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not sure anything changed about the condition of that principle.
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[SPEAKER_02]: That's what I'm kind of playing with.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Even just to make decisions inside my household about whether I don't was at 15 bucks, 17 bucks.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I have no idea if he's raising it all the time.
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[SPEAKER_02]: That was spending on who a month and how to just be in a relationship with both that individual decision but also how it relates to a larger organized strategy.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for sharing that because there's so much about boycotting that has felt really useless to me, generally speaking, now there are places both locally and businesses nationally that I don't support just because there's no question about their politic about what they're doing, I'm just like, I just feel better if my money doesn't go there.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Like you said, it doesn't matter if anybody else is doing it.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I'm just not going back anyway.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So whatever they do, that's what they do.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I don't care.
17:40.447 --> 17:54.806
[SPEAKER_00]: But at the same time, I'm like watching the conversation about a general strike that's coming out of Chicago and paying attention to even the no kings rally and the conversation around like, but what are the asks?
17:54.966 --> 17:55.968
[SPEAKER_00]: What is the next step?
17:56.028 --> 17:57.570
[SPEAKER_00]: What is the thing that we're doing?
17:57.550 --> 18:16.892
[SPEAKER_00]: In that movement, not really having a, like you said, a centralized like this is the demand or this is the list of demands and people walking away feeling like either they didn't go so they don't have to walk away or people walking away from it that there's like all this galvanized energy that is not pointed in any particular direction.
18:16.872 --> 18:35.239
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, even since the beginning of this administration, I have been minimizing the amount of money I spend that is not local, that is not needs based because honestly, I regardless of what happens with anybody else's boycott, I'm like, I don't want to give this man any credit for nothing.
18:35.339 --> 18:37.362
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't want the economy to do well.
18:37.342 --> 18:51.163
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to prop up the small businesses that I support the very few like content creators that I send my little $5 to, but other than that, I've been really trying not to spend a lot of money because I agree.
18:51.303 --> 18:57.072
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, for a minute, they want to convince you that the one thing that is sacred right is religion.
18:57.052 --> 18:58.914
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, man, I got bad news for you.
18:58.954 --> 18:59.995
[SPEAKER_00]: That's not true.
19:00.456 --> 19:03.739
[SPEAKER_00]: Capitalism is the religion of this administration.
19:03.799 --> 19:09.586
[SPEAKER_00]: And so the way that we participate in capitalism has definitely become more important to me.
19:09.986 --> 19:12.089
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm paying way more attention to it.
19:12.509 --> 19:24.983
[SPEAKER_00]: When I see creators or when I see people who are like, I'm doing it unboxing or I bought all this stuff to change over my home from summer to fall or whatever.
19:24.963 --> 19:26.666
[SPEAKER_00]: But you didn't need to do that.
19:27.007 --> 19:32.035
[SPEAKER_00]: Why are we spending any money that is going to make any corporation right now?
19:32.576 --> 19:37.565
[SPEAKER_00]: Do well that is not keeping its social contract with the people?
19:37.625 --> 19:40.149
[SPEAKER_00]: And of course, there's Target as a great example.
19:40.210 --> 19:47.342
[SPEAKER_00]: But then my brain goes right back to another loop where I'm like, I might be working for Target next year.
19:47.322 --> 19:48.183
[SPEAKER_00]: You know what I mean?
19:48.303 --> 19:56.134
[SPEAKER_00]: So like there's this other thing that's happening to where there are people who work at these companies that are not rich people that are not doing well Which is why I'm like?
19:56.695 --> 19:58.117
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't want a general strike.
19:58.597 --> 20:10.714
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't want my life to be inconvenient or hard But I don't see a lot of other Things that would work that I feel like as a strategy that is being paid attention to by this administration
20:10.694 --> 20:14.971
[SPEAKER_00]: because literally people are putting their bodies on the line to resist ice.
20:15.091 --> 20:19.810
[SPEAKER_00]: People are trying to call their legislators still.
20:22.220 --> 20:28.732
[SPEAKER_02]: I like it, uh, exacerbated by even the idea to just be like, listen, they are not saving us.
20:28.752 --> 20:31.557
[SPEAKER_02]: They had their chances of they're not even trying to.
20:31.577 --> 20:36.847
[SPEAKER_00]: No, you know, I got an email from my local whatever pick your poison doesn't matter.
20:36.867 --> 20:38.149
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm probably getting a bunch of emails.
20:38.530 --> 20:41.856
[SPEAKER_00]: It's starting to feel like they're just reporters, right?
20:42.037 --> 20:46.084
[SPEAKER_00]: They're like, hey, just so you know, your rights are being further restricted.
20:46.064 --> 20:52.434
[SPEAKER_00]: If you would like to call me and let me know the specifics of how this is going to impact you, please do.
20:52.835 --> 20:56.461
[SPEAKER_00]: And here's some links to some community resources where you can get food.
20:56.941 --> 20:59.065
[SPEAKER_00]: That is also having their budget stripped.
20:59.145 --> 21:00.727
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, what the fuck?
21:00.747 --> 21:02.530
[SPEAKER_00]: Why would I call you for anything?
21:02.550 --> 21:03.512
[SPEAKER_00]: This is insane.
21:03.592 --> 21:06.857
[SPEAKER_00]: There's like forums and they're like,
21:07.546 --> 21:15.117
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel like I'm living in a time where I feel like I'm standing in a situation where I'm like, this is reality.
21:15.137 --> 21:19.764
[SPEAKER_00]: And I feel like so much of what is happening is a denial of the reality.
21:20.505 --> 21:27.495
[SPEAKER_00]: I am going to call my legislator because that's what I would have done last year because that is how the democratic political process works.
21:27.712 --> 21:33.441
[SPEAKER_00]: And I just wanna grab everybody by their cheeks and smoosh them very gently and be like baby.
21:33.481 --> 21:35.665
[SPEAKER_00]: Baby, the Democratic process has ended.
21:36.266 --> 21:38.189
[SPEAKER_00]: We don't even know if we're gonna have a vote.
21:38.489 --> 21:50.749
[SPEAKER_00]: Please, I beg you, I beg you to turn away from capitalism, to turn away from these institutions and start being more strategic about where you apply your efforts because this is not it.
21:50.729 --> 21:52.031
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, absolutely.
21:52.171 --> 22:16.888
[SPEAKER_02]: And even as you were talking and which I think is part of the the dynamic of this podcast in general, right, which is balancing it's okay to like things and a principled valued way in which we turn towards and engage with the world and finding a balance in that and that I don't believe there are perfect choices right under capitalism under racialized capitalism like I just don't think that and there's a balance between.
22:16.868 --> 22:30.745
[SPEAKER_02]: holding yourself to an individual standard that is crushing your life and then using your individual choices as organized with others to make strategic impact and change and getting curious about what impact this is having on me on others.
22:31.026 --> 22:37.594
[SPEAKER_02]: What is it just like because I don't want to and even as you were talking about unboxing some like oh and I still love an unboxing like I don't do it.
22:37.574 --> 22:44.851
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm making similar kinds of, you know, we're in constant conversation in my household about our relationship with various corporations.
22:45.091 --> 22:47.738
[SPEAKER_02]: We're almost a year in and I'm still boycotting Target.
22:47.778 --> 22:50.404
[SPEAKER_02]: I have not been, you know, last night I needed something.
22:50.424 --> 22:53.210
[SPEAKER_02]: I was in the neighborhood where Target was still open.
22:53.270 --> 22:54.874
[SPEAKER_02]: What if had the thing I needed?
22:54.854 --> 23:10.146
[SPEAKER_02]: And I was like, no, I'm not going and you know, it's going to be a big old pain in the ass to go get those things that I need and also the part of me that can activate is the part of me that is also loyal where I'm just like you had an opportunity and you took a principled stance.
23:10.126 --> 23:14.332
[SPEAKER_02]: around supporting black entrepreneurs, black creators.
23:14.693 --> 23:19.840
[SPEAKER_02]: And then you just reversed it like that at the very first sign that it can impact you at all, I'm just not going to roll with that.
23:19.980 --> 23:28.293
[SPEAKER_02]: And so well, yes, it is more inconvenient to me to like not get this thing that I need that from literally staring at the target, but I'm not going to do it.
23:28.773 --> 23:31.898
[SPEAKER_02]: And if a box and comes up on TikTok, I might still watch it.
23:31.878 --> 23:35.263
[SPEAKER_00]: And those are just the tensions that I live in and existed.
23:35.303 --> 23:47.420
[SPEAKER_00]: It kind of reminds me of the conversations that we had during COVID, where it's like, if you can't get your thing that you need urgently from anywhere else other than Target, like, I think there's also a piece of this.
23:47.460 --> 23:50.305
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just common sense and practical planning.
23:50.465 --> 23:54.831
[SPEAKER_00]: There's just going to be a time where it might have to be the thing that I get at Walmart.
23:54.811 --> 23:55.652
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I don't know.
23:55.672 --> 24:05.007
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that that's part of a conversation, too, is like, yeah, there's just some situations where you don't have what you need accessible to you.
24:05.067 --> 24:07.151
[SPEAKER_00]: And so you have to do what you gotta do.
24:07.331 --> 24:08.212
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm here for that.
24:08.713 --> 24:12.499
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel myself constantly trying to balance.
24:12.479 --> 24:29.521
[SPEAKER_00]: having joy and being chill and not worrying about what's happening outside of my home, while also knowing that the people that are around me are not even aware of what the danger is exactly.
24:29.541 --> 24:38.993
[SPEAKER_00]: There's just so much happening that I need people to be paying attention to, and I find myself feeling really frustrated about things that I can't even really control.
24:38.973 --> 24:40.696
[SPEAKER_00]: Like none of this is it within my control.
24:41.277 --> 24:44.502
[SPEAKER_00]: Like my friend Steven said, he's like, it used to be that there were two tracks.
24:45.164 --> 24:52.556
[SPEAKER_00]: Live in my life, having a good time, taking care of my people, and dealing with the fuck shit in the government, two tracks, right?
24:52.877 --> 24:55.702
[SPEAKER_00]: They were parallel, but they were not on top of each other.
24:56.203 --> 25:03.495
[SPEAKER_00]: And right now, the distance between those things is so overlapping that the intensity is overwhelming.
25:03.475 --> 25:10.304
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm trying to enjoy my life, but I'm also trying to be aware of kidnappings that my government is doing right now.
25:10.745 --> 25:14.790
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a lot being asked of us, and there is a lot that we are holding.
25:14.851 --> 25:18.155
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's just our job right now.
25:18.496 --> 25:23.643
[SPEAKER_00]: All of this complexity, all of these things that are happening, all of these questions, all of it.
25:23.843 --> 25:26.867
[SPEAKER_00]: That is the job of doing resistance.
25:26.847 --> 25:28.870
[SPEAKER_00]: And it sucks, and it's exhausting.
25:29.071 --> 25:33.358
[SPEAKER_00]: And one of the biggest things about these platform changes, too, is just like, why are you wasting my fucking time?
25:33.678 --> 25:35.962
[SPEAKER_00]: I could be in my garden with my bees.
25:36.283 --> 25:37.204
[SPEAKER_00]: I could be painting.
25:37.585 --> 25:39.829
[SPEAKER_00]: I could literally just be watching TV vibing right now.
25:40.290 --> 25:45.719
[SPEAKER_00]: But this government has me running around trying to figure out where my podcast is going to be platformed like the fuck.
25:45.739 --> 25:46.801
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's the reality.
25:46.881 --> 25:51.248
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it's just the reality of the situation that we're in, and here we are.
25:51.849 --> 25:52.450
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
25:52.666 --> 26:02.741
[SPEAKER_02]: you know, and that thing you're saying about joy because the shifting landscape particularly related to pop culture, which is a portion of the joy I get in my life is changing.
26:02.761 --> 26:10.472
[SPEAKER_02]: I can feel myself in constant negotiation right now about where I'm accessing joy, where I'm accessing like decompression and I can see it changing.
26:10.512 --> 26:18.724
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, I listened to a lot of podcasts and I've had to stop listening to almost all of them because they are not
26:18.704 --> 26:19.886
[SPEAKER_02]: of relief, right?
26:20.267 --> 26:26.737
[SPEAKER_02]: And I don't only listen to them for relief, so a lot of times that is a primary source that I get my news, but that's a very specific chunk, right?
26:26.997 --> 26:33.548
[SPEAKER_02]: If I'm like trying to decompress at the end of the day, I don't want to hear about the new garbage thing, the Trump administration has done.
26:33.588 --> 26:36.713
[SPEAKER_02]: It's actually activating to my system when I'm trying to calm down.
26:36.693 --> 26:40.358
[SPEAKER_02]: And like in the middle of the day while I'm eating lunch, I actually'm happy to like take a new.
26:40.378 --> 26:44.123
[SPEAKER_02]: Like there's just like there's moments where I can and like I'm available to take in that information.
26:44.623 --> 26:47.347
[SPEAKER_02]: I've been noticing of what I've been pivoting to with these two things.
26:47.587 --> 26:50.952
[SPEAKER_02]: The two places that I have taken up more space is actually audio books.
26:51.292 --> 26:53.916
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm like, okay, that is the way I can still be listening.
26:54.056 --> 26:56.499
[SPEAKER_02]: Still be receiving the kind of pieces of entertainment.
26:56.779 --> 27:00.564
[SPEAKER_02]: It's so much easier to find things I feel solidly within my values.
27:01.005 --> 27:04.309
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I've been listening to particularly the series that Danny loves so much.
27:04.430 --> 27:06.312
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm called so hard to say.
27:06.292 --> 27:34.206
[SPEAKER_02]: dungeon crawler car oh it's so great there's a bazillion books there bazillion hours long like I will probably taking months to listen to the rest of them it's sweet it's about basically this like cumglomeration of aliens like take over the world and then they create a a little bit hunger games kind of situation and then we follow these characters trying to survive the various like levels of this hunger games kind of situation that then is like a TV show that the
27:34.186 --> 27:40.014
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, so has stuff about Empire right about resistance and has like characters that are interesting, but it's like it's a taming.
27:40.054 --> 27:45.562
[SPEAKER_02]: It's well done and there's just something about being like, uh, being able to settle into that makes a difference.
27:45.602 --> 27:47.685
[SPEAKER_02]: And so it's like noticing that taking up more space.
27:47.846 --> 27:52.753
[SPEAKER_02]: And we talked about it before we started recording, but I've been playing Star Do Valley for folks who don't know about Star Do Valley.
27:52.813 --> 27:56.318
[SPEAKER_02]: What I've learned is a lot of people now that I started talking about it know about Star Do Valley.
27:56.498 --> 28:00.784
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a little like minecraft like a game building world where you like are a farmer.
28:00.764 --> 28:10.168
[SPEAKER_02]: There's like an evil corporation, JoJo, you inherit your grandpa's farm, and then you try to like clean up the community and try to like get out the evil corporation of JoJo.
28:10.188 --> 28:12.614
[SPEAKER_02]: Basically, are you like rebuilding the community center?
28:12.654 --> 28:13.997
[SPEAKER_02]: You're like selling your goods.
28:14.318 --> 28:17.085
[SPEAKER_02]: Half the game is making friends with people, which I find.
28:17.065 --> 28:32.206
[SPEAKER_02]: What's your mind the hardest part because you have to like remember all the things they like and so there's like hundreds of like different items in the game Then you can give away but some people like and don't like and you have to go talk to them and they're so rude to you at first And you can give them a thing and some of the people are just like why are you talking to me?
28:32.226 --> 28:33.708
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm like, hally you bitch.
28:33.768 --> 28:34.529
[SPEAKER_02]: Don't talk to me like that.
28:34.549 --> 28:39.276
[SPEAKER_02]: I just gave you a fucking diamond Don't right
28:39.256 --> 28:52.311
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, those lights start outside, but if you just wanted to like, hoe in the ground all day in the game, you could like, there's no objective, like you technically get perfection, but it's just like for the joy of organizing little widgets and a pretty calming world.
28:52.652 --> 29:06.428
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm like, oh, yeah, like it makes sense to me that that is doing something for me right now, especially literally, and it takes my full attention, like I sometimes will watch it with TV, but I actually can't track the TV while I'm doing it,
29:06.408 --> 29:08.432
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm just noticing like that's what I need right now.
29:08.492 --> 29:13.963
[SPEAKER_02]: We're watching the Kardashians or Grey's Anatomy or things that are not currently available to me.
29:14.023 --> 29:16.748
[SPEAKER_02]: You still feel like, oh, okay, this doesn't really matter.
29:16.788 --> 29:18.371
[SPEAKER_02]: This is just like a checkout turn now.
29:18.391 --> 29:19.553
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, look at those people's lives.
29:20.195 --> 29:27.589
[SPEAKER_02]: That's not available, but Dungeon Crawler Carl and my star do is take me through my current fashion state.
29:27.569 --> 29:31.994
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel like the things that have brought me the most joy is community being around my people.
29:32.034 --> 29:32.835
[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.
29:32.895 --> 29:50.134
[SPEAKER_00]: And Michigan are starting to really get cold, we're moving into our fall winter period, really trying to scale back, minimize our things, and really prepare my home for eventual guests, if I need them, given where my family is situated throughout the country and what might be needed.
29:50.114 --> 29:59.514
[SPEAKER_00]: Just really thinking about my home as similar to COVID, like when COVID hit, my preoccupation was to make my home life very soft and very comfortable.
30:00.095 --> 30:07.431
[SPEAKER_00]: And now I find myself feeling like I'm preparing my home world to be soft and comfortable but also to be hospitable.
30:07.411 --> 30:09.473
[SPEAKER_00]: to people who might need to be in my home.
30:10.014 --> 30:12.096
[SPEAKER_00]: And that has brought me a lot of comfort.
30:12.496 --> 30:17.461
[SPEAKER_00]: And not for nothing, I have been going to all these disaster prep courses.
30:17.782 --> 30:24.548
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know how other families do disasters, because my kids, I don't know if they're going to be able to find me, because Lord, follow the directions.
30:25.049 --> 30:31.155
[SPEAKER_00]: My kids are not made up for the, listen, I thought I wasn't made for the apocalypse, and my kid, my children are not.
30:31.175 --> 30:32.997
[SPEAKER_00]: They're like, what do you,
30:32.977 --> 30:52.588
[SPEAKER_00]: You want us to pack a go back like We don't wear coats in the winter like what are you talking about and you're not sleeping in my sleeping bag I'm gonna tell you right now if we end up running out of this house and we have to leave and I'm the only one with the emergency sleep bag Y'all don't freeze and I know that's not true
30:52.568 --> 30:57.277
[SPEAKER_02]: They're endangering me, Shannon, Danny has already told me he's abandoning me and the industrial collapse.
30:57.297 --> 31:01.064
[SPEAKER_02]: So he's just like, baby, I'm not doing it every time he does, he says that it hurts my feelings.
31:01.325 --> 31:05.332
[SPEAKER_02]: But Marcus, all right, team who we are parenting, I think Marcus is with me.
31:05.393 --> 31:09.801
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm like, all right, okay, Danny is abandoning me, but I actually do think Marcus has what it takes.
31:09.781 --> 31:17.892
[SPEAKER_02]: I went to the grocery store on Sunday, which I never do because I have a life that allows me to go at like new and on a Tuesday and I brought him and he was fucking locked in.
31:17.992 --> 31:22.918
[SPEAKER_02]: He was like with me, he was doing and he was carrying stuff and I was like, Marcus, it's even me.
31:22.938 --> 31:24.681
[SPEAKER_02]: You and me are going to handle the apocalypse.
31:24.981 --> 31:26.403
[SPEAKER_02]: Danny, he's abandoning us.
31:26.463 --> 31:32.871
[SPEAKER_02]: So one of the great things about having Marcus come into our home is that I have an apocalypse but he now and I think he will survive with me.
31:32.972 --> 31:34.033
[SPEAKER_02]: But Danny's out.
31:34.013 --> 31:42.283
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, there are definitely things that my children would bring to a disaster that I have no interest in bringing.
31:42.323 --> 31:49.811
[SPEAKER_00]: However, trying to communicate about these things with my children has been a fascinating adventure.
31:50.252 --> 31:51.473
[SPEAKER_00]: We shall see how it goes.
31:51.513 --> 31:53.015
[SPEAKER_00]: This is the other thing too, right?
31:53.195 --> 31:58.121
[SPEAKER_00]: Your community organizing should really start at home, and I need someone else to be in charge of that.
31:58.482 --> 31:59.683
[SPEAKER_00]: As it turns out,
32:02.060 --> 32:06.428
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel less qualified, but why can't I organize my family?
32:06.468 --> 32:10.737
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel like strangers listen to me better than my kids do sometimes.
32:10.757 --> 32:12.159
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh yeah, one out of the sun.
32:12.420 --> 32:13.221
[SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.
32:13.261 --> 32:14.804
[SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.
32:14.824 --> 32:17.790
[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, I feel like that's been my focus is trying to figure out.
32:17.770 --> 32:23.438
[SPEAKER_00]: how to be prepared digital security, south and community defense, all of those things.
32:23.798 --> 32:27.803
[SPEAKER_00]: Literally, when I'm thinking about these platforms and the FCC, right?
32:28.004 --> 32:36.234
[SPEAKER_00]: Everything that is broadcast is being broadcast, because we have FCC, and we also have high levels of surveillance.
32:36.255 --> 32:41.922
[SPEAKER_00]: Surveillance, we already had, but is now boosted to a scale that we did not have before.
32:41.902 --> 32:53.871
[SPEAKER_00]: In addition to thinking about who I'm giving my money to, we're also having to think about who are we giving information to, who is able to track us easier because of the way that we're using these apps.
32:54.312 --> 32:55.114
[SPEAKER_00]: Listen to be clear.
32:55.134 --> 32:57.379
[SPEAKER_00]: I know I'm already cooked.
32:57.359 --> 33:01.405
[SPEAKER_00]: the information like I'm already in the pot.
33:01.445 --> 33:02.486
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm a frog in the pot.
33:02.687 --> 33:06.893
[SPEAKER_00]: I have no delusions of like, oh, if I just pull it down now, it'll be fine.
33:06.913 --> 33:08.355
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't believe that at all.
33:08.776 --> 33:17.328
[SPEAKER_00]: And I actually really think that it is an our best interest to still be visible doing these things to some extent.
33:17.689 --> 33:25.560
[SPEAKER_00]: However, I know not everybody shares that risk, shares that risk consensually is interested in that level of risk.
33:25.540 --> 33:34.214
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I think it is important to name to that part of the disassociation with some of these apps is also about that digital security.
33:34.454 --> 33:36.858
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I just got bullied by that.
33:36.878 --> 33:40.404
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, lovingly bullied into getting a proton email account.
33:40.424 --> 33:42.507
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, I love my friends at Interrupt and Criminalization.
33:42.567 --> 33:44.210
[SPEAKER_02]: And they were literally like, we can't work with you.
33:44.230 --> 33:44.810
[SPEAKER_02]: You don't have one.
33:44.831 --> 33:46.032
[SPEAKER_02]: We broke up with Gmail.
33:46.072 --> 33:52.122
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm learning now that proton has basically like a Google Drive function that they've built in, but it's encrypted.
33:52.102 --> 33:53.726
[SPEAKER_02]: they were like, but we can only share with you.
33:53.766 --> 33:57.255
[SPEAKER_02]: We have a prototype account and I was like, I hear you think that we collaborate with other people.
33:57.275 --> 34:00.984
[SPEAKER_02]: I guess we will not send you to Gmail.
34:01.145 --> 34:02.067
[SPEAKER_02]: So stop doing it.
34:02.448 --> 34:05.175
[SPEAKER_02]: And I appreciate that there are people who are taking leadership, right?
34:05.255 --> 34:07.380
[SPEAKER_02]: Because I'm happy to break up with Gmail.
34:07.601 --> 34:08.102
[SPEAKER_02]: But.
34:08.082 --> 34:12.911
[SPEAKER_02]: half the organism I do is on Google drives and I believe that Gmail could just take that from us at a time.
34:12.931 --> 34:17.580
[SPEAKER_02]: Like I absolutely don't think it's a good strategy, but part of is also existing in the world with others.
34:17.981 --> 34:27.559
[SPEAKER_02]: If I have a platform that nobody else can communicate with me on, especially people who are not particularly technologically savvy, there's an organizing trade-off, right, of like digital security to access.
34:27.539 --> 34:31.148
[SPEAKER_02]: and I appreciate the people who are leading and guiding me into being like, great.
34:31.268 --> 34:34.937
[SPEAKER_02]: We're going to model how we're going to move over here and why, and I'm like, thank you.
34:35.158 --> 34:36.020
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm happy to join.
34:36.140 --> 34:42.576
[SPEAKER_02]: I couldn't lead on that one, but like, you know, how long it took me to get a proton dot me account, like, one minute.
34:42.676 --> 34:44.039
[SPEAKER_02]: It took me one minute.
34:44.059 --> 34:44.400
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just like,
34:44.380 --> 34:45.361
[SPEAKER_00]: I know.
34:45.381 --> 34:46.082
[SPEAKER_00]: I know.
34:46.102 --> 34:53.710
[SPEAKER_00]: I think we have to check our calendars because just like you were saying, you know, we ended up admitting we were both watching call the Midwife again.
34:53.730 --> 34:56.333
[SPEAKER_00]: Or at least we tried.
34:56.353 --> 34:59.396
[SPEAKER_00]: I also just signed up for my proton email.
34:59.517 --> 35:03.601
[SPEAKER_00]: So I have been slowly moving my way away from the Google products.
35:03.701 --> 35:06.684
[SPEAKER_00]: I've been slowly moving my way away from Zoom.
35:06.764 --> 35:08.146
[SPEAKER_00]: I've been using Jitzi.
35:08.166 --> 35:11.890
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm usually an early adopter that doesn't reach it about anything.
35:11.870 --> 35:17.339
[SPEAKER_00]: And so when I switched over to proton, the only check I did was like, I need a calendar though.
35:17.659 --> 35:21.626
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I didn't check the drive, but I did see that they had a calendar.
35:21.686 --> 35:23.329
[SPEAKER_00]: And that was really the main thing for me.
35:23.369 --> 35:32.123
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm excited to hear that there's comparable things because that's what I'm doing next is pulling off the stuff that is in the Google Drive, any other deleting.
35:32.103 --> 35:40.031
[SPEAKER_00]: it or archiving it onto a hard drive so that I don't lose years and years of my body of work.
35:40.352 --> 35:43.235
[SPEAKER_00]: Again, it's not at this point to hide from the government.
35:43.255 --> 35:48.900
[SPEAKER_00]: I like the guy hiding very obviously behind a plant, like everybody knows.
35:49.061 --> 35:53.385
[SPEAKER_02]: The more public stuff that I do with my name on it, that's just like, family policing.
35:53.425 --> 35:54.947
[SPEAKER_02]: I already think it was cooked.
35:55.107 --> 35:58.110
[SPEAKER_02]: It's just a when-not-if conversation.
35:58.090 --> 36:01.876
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I mean, it's not like there are 4,000 Shannon Pres.
36:01.896 --> 36:04.800
[SPEAKER_00]: Darby is in Tashmika Torox.
36:04.820 --> 36:05.742
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, exactly.
36:05.842 --> 36:10.028
[SPEAKER_02]: The, the thing about is it's actually, I am the, the best I know only legal Pres.
36:10.049 --> 36:11.971
[SPEAKER_02]: Darby, my sister's legal name is in Pres.
36:11.992 --> 36:13.334
[SPEAKER_02]: Darby, all of she uses that.
36:13.354 --> 36:15.878
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like, I, I, I, I've got to be only one.
36:15.898 --> 36:19.423
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so I'm the only Tashmika Torox.
36:19.403 --> 36:40.467
[SPEAKER_00]: Like with like the Hungarian last name really sealed the deal for me there and so I mean it's always been that way though even my made a name right and so I'm just like this is it's not about that in addition to moving forward in a safer way I've often not had to think about the risk of others who are working with me.
36:40.447 --> 36:58.523
[SPEAKER_00]: Right, like I didn't always have to think about if I sent out this mass email about this thing, if I get in trouble for doing this, I can get in trouble, but if it's tracking everybody that I'm sending things to or that I'm communicating with, I just really have never had to think about that.
36:58.503 --> 37:20.528
[SPEAKER_00]: And really in the past, I knew that there was risk, but I also knew that like not likely a risk of being criminalized in the way that it's happening right now and you know I just recently discovered YouTube like a little granny and I've been just like enjoying my life on YouTube and then all of a sudden there's a woman on there talking to me about Jesus and her weight loss journey.
37:20.508 --> 37:21.731
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like, what the fuck?
37:22.252 --> 37:24.016
[SPEAKER_00]: I know for damn sure.
37:24.076 --> 37:25.599
[SPEAKER_00]: Nothing I clicked on.
37:26.582 --> 37:29.869
[SPEAKER_00]: Said, please tell me how to lose weight during the rise of fascism.
37:30.190 --> 37:32.535
[SPEAKER_00]: That's when I really can't believe we're still talking about right now.
37:32.816 --> 37:35.682
[SPEAKER_00]: And I definitely didn't ask anybody to talk to me about Jesus.
37:35.662 --> 37:55.589
[SPEAKER_00]: The way that I'm also noticing how some of these platforms and production studios and the film industry is creating content that is very much more conservative and much more leaning right wing in its propaganda of course it was happening before.
37:55.629 --> 38:01.197
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean we've covered things that have come out like a the lying ass liar Tim Ballard.
38:01.177 --> 38:05.201
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, or the Sydney Sweeney American Eagle jeans ad, right?
38:05.221 --> 38:07.784
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, just all of the dog whistles.
38:07.804 --> 38:18.276
[SPEAKER_02]: So that's just kind of explicit like just being like, yes, blonde hair, blue eyed lady is like, she has good jeans and jeans.
38:18.296 --> 38:20.739
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yeah, that's just pretty clear.
38:20.799 --> 38:22.240
[SPEAKER_02]: That's not even that subtle.
38:22.781 --> 38:25.564
[SPEAKER_02]: And I mean, just like you're saying to, you know, I mean, a lot of,
38:25.544 --> 38:44.447
[SPEAKER_02]: that positive spaces like that's a lot of how I curated my Instagram and my TikTok and I can see exactly like you're saying more and more we've known this forever right which is like rise of fascism is connected to white skinny beauty standards and that is often like the correlation you can see it's like our people obsessed with being skinny fascism is here.
38:44.427 --> 38:46.152
[SPEAKER_02]: those things are deeply connected.
38:46.954 --> 38:47.155
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
38:47.175 --> 38:49.000
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, I really like lifting heavy weights.
38:49.120 --> 38:52.550
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I like, you know, one plus size weight lifter.
38:52.590 --> 38:54.997
[SPEAKER_02]: Now I'm getting all this diet content, right?
38:55.017 --> 38:59.449
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm like, I just want to watch beefy ladies lift heavy weights.
38:59.429 --> 39:00.470
[SPEAKER_02]: That's what I would like.
39:01.051 --> 39:06.497
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not trying to do weird way less content that just keeps slipping it and because like diet culture is so prolific, right?
39:06.517 --> 39:07.659
[SPEAKER_02]: Like just like seeps in.
39:07.679 --> 39:17.070
[SPEAKER_02]: I have to like actively put infrastructure inside myself to like check that because it can just so easily be like now I'll just half my feet is way less content.
39:17.090 --> 39:19.673
[SPEAKER_02]: I was like, I want to watch people lift heavy weights.
39:19.853 --> 39:24.939
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't want weight loss content or Jim bro stuff or like biohacking things.
39:25.019 --> 39:26.601
[SPEAKER_02]: Like that's not what I want.
39:26.581 --> 39:33.031
[SPEAKER_00]: I saw when that literally was connecting your ability to be successful.
39:33.051 --> 39:35.114
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, sure, sure, sure.
39:35.134 --> 39:37.538
[SPEAKER_00]: To both faith and weight loss.
39:37.618 --> 39:42.165
[SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, throw it away, throw the whole app away.
39:42.185 --> 39:44.168
[SPEAKER_00]: I was like, the what?
39:44.755 --> 39:47.580
[SPEAKER_00]: it is definitely coming at us.
39:47.961 --> 40:04.350
[SPEAKER_00]: The thing about fascism, about white supremacy, about anti-blackness, there's this thing where it doesn't want us to know ourselves and doesn't want us to know history, and that is very real, but also I'm getting another reminder of how much it wants us to hate ourselves.
40:04.330 --> 40:12.561
[SPEAKER_00]: and how these sort of content algorithm is being delivered to us in the spirit of you are not enough.
40:13.221 --> 40:24.176
[SPEAKER_00]: Your body is not enough and all you need is to sprinkle a little Jesus on this a little bit of weight loss, creatine supplements will change your life and find help you find Jesus.
40:24.336 --> 40:32.346
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe get yourself a good man to take care of you and everything will be fine.
40:32.326 --> 40:47.163
[SPEAKER_00]: non-sensical enough by itself, but it also is saying, if you are not these things, here are all the reasons that you should not like yourself, here are all the reasons that your life is not good, and if you are not doing these things, you can expect to be unhappy.
40:47.244 --> 41:02.181
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like, none of this is true, but this plus the policies that we're experiencing is really just this intentional bullying of
41:02.161 --> 41:05.185
[SPEAKER_00]: money to be spending money on weight loss right now.
41:05.265 --> 41:05.666
[SPEAKER_00]: I'll never.
41:05.686 --> 41:06.467
[SPEAKER_00]: I can't.
41:07.048 --> 41:13.197
[SPEAKER_02]: It literally is one of the only things that's a guarantee like continuous intentional weight loss.
41:13.717 --> 41:22.410
[SPEAKER_02]: We actually have the numbers that tell us that that is a lie and that continuing to spend money on intentional weight loss.
41:22.891 --> 41:27.477
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a lie, but we just keep being told we should believe it again and again and again and again and again.
41:27.457 --> 41:40.299
[SPEAKER_02]: My friend, Michelle, and I did this workshop in October, called Griffiths Repair, talking about the connections between building accountable communities, being in good relations with the folks around us, and being really sharp about our grief practices.
41:40.680 --> 41:43.324
[SPEAKER_02]: This conversation is making me think about that.
41:43.865 --> 41:48.152
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm surprised about the places that I have grief in breaking up, particularly with Hulu.
41:48.713 --> 41:49.735
[SPEAKER_02]: And...
41:49.715 --> 41:51.199
[SPEAKER_01]: that's slightly embarrassing.
41:51.219 --> 42:01.744
[SPEAKER_02]: The only piece of grief I feel is ending of my relationship with Grace Anatomy because that is the mechanism that I have to watch and I'm 20 years in, you know, we had a whole episode about Grace Anatomy on this.
42:01.764 --> 42:06.897
[SPEAKER_02]: We've actually had a two Grace Anatomy related episode on Grace Anatomy.
42:06.877 --> 42:08.259
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm 20 years into the relationship.
42:08.479 --> 42:09.180
[SPEAKER_02]: Isn't even good?
42:09.280 --> 42:09.601
[SPEAKER_02]: Who knows?
42:09.641 --> 42:11.183
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a little like like a soap opera, right?
42:11.243 --> 42:12.865
[SPEAKER_02]: Where I'm just like, I've been in it.
42:13.046 --> 42:15.249
[SPEAKER_02]: And like, there is like a certain joy I get from it.
42:16.190 --> 42:17.632
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's the only way I have to watch it.
42:17.792 --> 42:18.453
[SPEAKER_02]: And I feel grief.
42:18.994 --> 42:27.906
[SPEAKER_02]: And I have just been sitting with, can I just feel that grief that I've had a 20 year relationship with a TV show that for these other principal reasons I feel important to me is not available.
42:27.886 --> 42:33.300
[SPEAKER_02]: And probably, I don't know, in a year, whatever the delay is before though, like, knock that season on to Netflix.
42:33.340 --> 42:36.107
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's not a forever, you know, and then things I forgot about, right?
42:36.148 --> 42:39.737
[SPEAKER_02]: Which is like, I forgot about the Kardashians, but now they're exclusive with Hulu.
42:39.757 --> 42:43.988
[SPEAKER_02]: So that's the only place you can watch the Kardashians and apparently a new season came out.
42:43.968 --> 42:50.016
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't even say I don't actually feel grief about that, like if I had Hulu, I would watch this most recent season of Kardashians and like I'm fine.
42:50.056 --> 42:55.823
[SPEAKER_02]: One of the other things I've broken up with which is the Bachelor, and I think I'm gonna stick to the breakup with the Bachelor.
42:55.983 --> 42:57.365
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, this is a big one.
42:57.425 --> 43:04.093
[SPEAKER_00]: This feels bigger than Grey's Anatomy to me because I'm like, you even got me to watch the Bachelor for a minute.
43:04.294 --> 43:05.395
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it didn't last.
43:05.475 --> 43:09.300
[SPEAKER_00]: I watched enough to satisfy what's the time to start.
43:09.280 --> 43:15.728
[SPEAKER_00]: I hate it, I got it, but of course, I'm still like, I still track it on the side of my brain because I know you're watching it.
43:15.749 --> 43:25.341
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, because the Golden Bachelor, so I can't remember if we've talked in here about what happened, but I don't remember the guy's name because I'm not watching, but the second Golden Bachelor, so Gary was the first one.
43:25.782 --> 43:35.254
[SPEAKER_02]: He said on a podcast that he prefers women 50 and under he's like 70, 50 and under, and he doesn't want any women with wigs or hip replacements.
43:35.695 --> 43:37.397
[SPEAKER_02]: Also, guess what he's had?
43:37.377 --> 43:38.841
[SPEAKER_02]: hit per placement, you fucker.
43:38.901 --> 43:42.571
[SPEAKER_02]: And so he said that on a podcast before the season started filming.
43:43.072 --> 43:43.935
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, interesting.
43:43.955 --> 43:45.599
[SPEAKER_02]: There was a whole call to try to recast.
43:45.619 --> 43:47.264
[SPEAKER_02]: It was like two weeks before they started filming.
43:48.226 --> 43:51.375
[SPEAKER_02]: And ABC actually, I'm decided not to recast him.
43:51.395 --> 43:52.939
[SPEAKER_02]: And apparently the season is horrible.
43:52.919 --> 44:15.147
[SPEAKER_02]: So I still listen to my podcast and I go like check in with my gamer roses who do a little like recaps and they're kind of keeping us up to date Some following the like pop culture part of it without watching the episodes and I'm like, yeah I just I don't need to watch this dude who said also like coded anti black shit about wigs What and of course apparently in this season all the women are like vibrant running circles around him and he seems like he's early there
44:15.818 --> 44:20.891
[SPEAKER_02]: And the women are just like bench pressing and running and they're just like vibrant.
44:20.991 --> 44:22.936
[SPEAKER_02]: He's just like looks like he's on his way out.
44:23.197 --> 44:29.393
[SPEAKER_02]: The next season of the Bachelor at which is just about to start filming is with Frankie Taylor Paul.
44:29.413 --> 44:29.594
[SPEAKER_02]: Great.
44:29.614 --> 44:30.436
[SPEAKER_02]: It's all right.
44:30.456 --> 44:32.882
[SPEAKER_02]: Who shoots from the secret lives of Mormon wives.
44:32.862 --> 44:34.164
[SPEAKER_02]: I feel so confused.
44:34.264 --> 44:36.808
[SPEAKER_02]: She's exactly, and so she's going to be the next bachelor, right?
44:36.828 --> 44:42.537
[SPEAKER_02]: And which I'm like, if we're thinking about fascism, I'm just like, oh, so interesting that like, yeah.
44:42.557 --> 44:44.440
[SPEAKER_02]: More than housewives, like swinging.
44:44.560 --> 44:46.703
[SPEAKER_02]: Apparently she was arrested for domestic violence.
44:46.743 --> 44:47.945
[SPEAKER_02]: I didn't go into details.
44:47.965 --> 44:50.589
[SPEAKER_02]: I can tell you, and the hot takes about it because I haven't looked into the details.
44:51.150 --> 44:52.552
[SPEAKER_02]: That's going to be the next bachelor, right?
44:52.632 --> 44:58.601
[SPEAKER_02]: In the series, and I'm like, oh, what have wild swing to like double down in this way?
44:58.621 --> 45:00.945
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm like, all right, bachelor, I think we're done.
45:00.965 --> 45:01.806
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that's it.
45:01.786 --> 45:06.712
[SPEAKER_00]: It's funny because I just finished the recent series our season of Love is blind.
45:06.752 --> 45:25.956
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a couple of people on there that have a very explicit conversation about how they believe that the whole LGBTQ thing quotes is a fat and that what they would do if their kid came out, I am of the opinion that that man was very gay.
45:26.417 --> 45:26.697
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
45:26.677 --> 45:27.438
[SPEAKER_02]: Of course.
45:27.579 --> 45:29.021
[SPEAKER_02]: He is the gayest, Nick.
45:29.362 --> 45:33.088
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, of course, the most homophobic people are closeted folks.
45:33.408 --> 45:38.637
[SPEAKER_02]: That conversation, those two white people are having about whether they're going to support their gay kids, just as totally like Magicoded shit.
45:38.717 --> 45:45.989
[SPEAKER_02]: He's absolutely feels connected to the sense of like fascism and that they feel perfectly comfortable being like, I don't know, gay seems a little weird.
45:46.050 --> 45:46.911
[SPEAKER_02]: We're not sure.
45:46.971 --> 45:49.095
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, for children, I don't know.
45:49.115 --> 45:49.696
[SPEAKER_02]: Mm.
45:50.116 --> 45:50.537
[SPEAKER_02]: Mm.
45:50.557 --> 45:51.098
[SPEAKER_02]: Side eye.
45:52.343 --> 45:59.961
[SPEAKER_00]: Another sign of what production is going to look like when these kinds of storylines are going to be prioritized.
46:00.503 --> 46:07.720
[SPEAKER_00]: I have no sympathy, no equivocation about what is happening here because also the film industry has had.
46:07.700 --> 46:10.263
[SPEAKER_00]: you know, Oscars so white, they don't care.
46:10.504 --> 46:12.506
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, they're doing what they normally do.
46:12.546 --> 46:14.809
[SPEAKER_00]: They were never committed to DEI in the first place.
46:14.849 --> 46:18.715
[SPEAKER_00]: So like we don't have to pretend that this is some special incident.
46:18.755 --> 46:20.377
[SPEAKER_00]: This is pretty much what it is.
46:20.417 --> 46:34.095
[SPEAKER_00]: That's really fascinating for them to keep this couple on here of all the hours of conversation that they had to choose to include that in the production, you know, that actually has shared with us.
46:34.075 --> 46:34.796
[SPEAKER_00]: interesting.
46:34.996 --> 46:43.508
[SPEAKER_00]: So I definitely have been tracking a lot of this and new shows that are coming out that feel like you said, Maga coded.
46:43.548 --> 46:52.540
[SPEAKER_00]: Even the fact that I believe there's a film coming out about October 7th and Israel is about glorifying Israeli military.
46:52.520 --> 46:54.927
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I saw the preview for it.
46:55.468 --> 47:06.439
[SPEAKER_00]: I think I've shared before and here that I love waking up to, again, something that probably will need to change, but on my Google home page, because it knows what I love, it sends me all of the movie previews.
47:06.800 --> 47:07.542
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'll wake up in the morning.
47:07.522 --> 47:29.091
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like, oh, a new season of this or that movie looks good and I'm just like flipping through it and it looked like a new home land like army kind of thriller, but I wasn't quite sure and so when I clicked on it was like,
47:29.223 --> 47:31.887
[SPEAKER_00]: production that we get is about Israel.
47:31.907 --> 47:35.873
[SPEAKER_00]: I am not against people sharing stories of violence.
47:36.053 --> 47:37.635
[SPEAKER_00]: You all know I love true crime.
47:38.156 --> 47:39.418
[SPEAKER_00]: Love is probably a strong word.
47:39.959 --> 47:50.334
[SPEAKER_00]: I like to watch things that have a critical lens behind it because most true crime, as we've discussed before, if you're paying attention, the beat to the rhythm is cops' ancient.
47:50.714 --> 47:58.926
[SPEAKER_00]: Usually it highlights how the criminal legal system is failing both the people who are harmed and the people who are causing harm
47:58.906 --> 48:04.157
[SPEAKER_00]: So I don't have a problem necessarily with a true story of a violent act being told.
48:05.740 --> 48:15.160
[SPEAKER_00]: And also, I was, my chest started turning like I'm like it literally hurt my feelings to think about Palestinian people.
48:15.697 --> 48:31.377
[SPEAKER_00]: Who were not even allowed to share the stage at the Democratic National Convention, who have been demonized and this election period and said everything from they lost us the election, you know, and should care about what they're dealing with.
48:31.357 --> 48:32.038
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a mess.
48:32.459 --> 48:33.481
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a painful mess.
48:33.741 --> 48:47.444
[SPEAKER_00]: And then to think that the first thing that we get out of Hollywood that isn't a documentary because there was that award winning documentary, which you can't even watch in so many places in the US because the affiliates won't pick it up and and stream it.
48:47.544 --> 48:52.673
[SPEAKER_02]: And so a lot of the times like to access that you have to like stream it through international platforms.
48:52.653 --> 49:03.235
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm looking at that because I want to make sure to say the name, it's called no other land, and it's about the destruction of a Palestinian community in the occupied West Bank.
49:03.255 --> 49:13.497
[SPEAKER_00]: Ata Hathaleen, who was a Palestinian activist who helped make the Oscar-winning documentary no other land, was shot dead in a settler attack back in August.
49:13.949 --> 49:17.777
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I think we have to pay attention to this.
49:18.077 --> 49:35.873
[SPEAKER_00]: I think we have to pay attention to the fact that we are privileging certain stories right now that is very much about the indoctrination, the propaganda, the push to get DI out of here out of every industry.
49:35.853 --> 49:47.476
[SPEAKER_00]: watching that and knowing what I know, not just about what has happened in Palestine historically, but Gaza and with this other documentary that like what you said, we can't even watch.
49:47.597 --> 49:54.250
[SPEAKER_00]: And the at least one person who participated is no longer with us has died as a part of these attacks from Israel.
49:54.230 --> 50:15.434
[SPEAKER_00]: is just so painful that has been the trend of so many platforms, but it's also starting to become the trend of organizational spaces that are disappearing trans people off of their websites, that are moving away from DI signing agreements to report to the government, how they're handling or mishandling DI.
50:16.135 --> 50:22.482
[SPEAKER_00]: We have law enforcement signing 287Gs to
50:22.462 --> 50:26.568
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's part of what I feel frustrated with.
50:26.849 --> 50:31.135
[SPEAKER_00]: Someone said to me, the pattern recognition in me sees the pattern recognition in you.
50:31.195 --> 50:49.043
[SPEAKER_00]: And I really wish that I did not see pattern remember history and have this sort of circular brain that pulls all of these things together because I would be able to watch TV and be fine.
50:49.023 --> 50:50.445
[SPEAKER_00]: But I can see the trends.
50:50.666 --> 50:54.692
[SPEAKER_00]: I can see what is happening in terms of a breakup again.
50:54.712 --> 51:11.959
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just the same as any relationship where you start to recognize a pattern that is no longer sustainable, no longer safe, no longer comfortable, and you have no other choice to secure your safety or well-being, your mental health, but to turn away from it in any way that you can.
51:11.939 --> 51:21.753
[SPEAKER_00]: In all of the things that stress me out and frustrate me and make me angry, the thing that I keep returning to is that I still have autonomy about the ways that I resist every day.
51:21.813 --> 51:29.023
[SPEAKER_00]: And sometimes that feels really, really silly and simple, like my little $15 a month on Hulu.
51:29.403 --> 51:32.968
[SPEAKER_00]: Ain't nobody has Hulu crying tears about my little subscription.
51:33.235 --> 51:48.877
[SPEAKER_00]: I wish they were, though, and sometimes it feels simple and sometimes it feels bigger where I'm able to share the things that I learn and help people start to be strategic about their lives and the ways that they're running their small groups, their community groups, their nonprofits, whatever it is.
51:49.538 --> 51:57.690
[SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes it can feel like a bigger act of resistance, but the main thing is that fascism wants us not to have choice.
51:57.670 --> 52:13.063
[SPEAKER_00]: And every time we use our choice to be in some form of resistance and every time we're able to do that with other people that is where we are able to maintain a source of power that's when I'm holding on to right now.
52:13.263 --> 52:18.347
[SPEAKER_02]: I learned this phrase from our dear friend, B. M. Inges, she said this once to be in conversation.
52:18.387 --> 52:21.390
[SPEAKER_02]: When we were talking about this exact thing, she used the phrase, I am an over-stayer.
52:21.430 --> 52:25.854
[SPEAKER_02]: Ever since she said that I'm like, oh, yeah, I am an over-stayer.
52:26.374 --> 52:43.168
[SPEAKER_02]: And part of this phase in my life, I'm in right now is practicing not over-staying, practicing not twisting myself in shapes, just to stay in relationship, when it otherwise it is hurting me, because I am so ill, because my strongest desire is to find people
52:43.148 --> 52:51.914
[SPEAKER_02]: And the test is exactly what you said, which is to notice the pattern recognition to notice when it's not working and it doesn't have to be big bad right just to be like, Oh, I don't like how I'm being treated.
52:51.994 --> 52:55.163
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't like how this makes me feel when I look at the patterns here.
52:55.283 --> 52:56.567
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not in surface of me.
52:56.627 --> 52:58.272
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not in surface of my values.
52:58.252 --> 53:06.825
[SPEAKER_02]: and to not wait until it's crashing down around me, which is how I have, you know, in romantic relations, I have most of them come to like crashing down around me.
53:06.865 --> 53:13.915
[SPEAKER_02]: When it was clear earlier, it was just not working and that we actually couldn't have stepped away at a like more loving, less destructive time.
53:14.396 --> 53:18.702
[SPEAKER_02]: Instead of just being like, let's try again, well, I'll think of another because I'm so good at creative thinking, right?
53:18.722 --> 53:22.147
[SPEAKER_02]: I was like, I can think of another creative way to try to be in a relationship with each other.
53:22.227 --> 53:23.449
[SPEAKER_02]: Instead of just
53:23.429 --> 53:25.152
[SPEAKER_02]: Hey, I love and respect you.
53:25.773 --> 53:27.596
[SPEAKER_02]: And I love and respect myself and it's not working.
53:28.177 --> 53:31.162
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm curious about it's like practicing that at scale, right fractals.
53:31.402 --> 53:33.505
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, small is all what we practice, the small scale.
53:33.566 --> 53:35.649
[SPEAKER_02]: We get to practice in the experience at the large scale.
53:36.010 --> 53:37.292
[SPEAKER_02]: And so same thing with platforms.
53:37.452 --> 53:42.400
[SPEAKER_02]: It doesn't have to be that it's just like crushing every part of me just to be like, oh no, thanks.
53:42.380 --> 53:53.333
[SPEAKER_02]: And Spotify, so Spotify, as we are recording this, is under fire right now for running ice recruitment ads, Spotify works so two different ways.
53:53.373 --> 54:06.768
[SPEAKER_02]: So they have podcasts who they specifically were like Spotify exclusive, who are only on Spotify, they have contracts, you know, often you can pay for the big ones, like millions of dollars, and then Spotify can trolls the ads that go in is when you're working with them.
54:06.848 --> 54:11.053
[SPEAKER_02]: So you don't necessarily always get to control what ad goes into your podcast if you're collaborating with them.
54:11.270 --> 54:21.030
[SPEAKER_02]: And then the other, like how we use it is that we use a separate platform that just distributes our podcast to every place that will receive, you know, our SS feed podcast, right?
54:21.050 --> 54:21.992
[SPEAKER_02]: So we make no money.
54:22.052 --> 54:25.920
[SPEAKER_02]: We have no contract with Spotify, you know, it's hard to tell.
54:27.318 --> 54:33.409
[SPEAKER_00]: that we're not making any money based on our livelihoods, like the way that we live.
54:33.429 --> 54:35.773
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
54:35.793 --> 54:35.954
[SPEAKER_00]: No.
54:35.974 --> 54:37.777
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, please go by a tote bag.
54:39.159 --> 54:39.780
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
54:39.800 --> 54:40.722
[SPEAKER_00]: Right, right.
54:40.902 --> 54:43.487
[SPEAKER_02]: We can show no.
54:43.467 --> 54:48.798
[SPEAKER_02]: So if tomorrow I step using Spotify, you know, this doesn't affect us, right?
54:48.818 --> 54:50.662
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like I don't lose any money from that decision.
54:50.682 --> 54:50.782
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
54:51.324 --> 54:56.454
[SPEAKER_02]: And like even just like Spotify is primarily where I listen to podcasts, because it just had made sense.
54:56.595 --> 54:58.779
[SPEAKER_02]: I do pay for a Spotify premium membership.
54:59.220 --> 55:00.764
[SPEAKER_02]: And recently it's also just stuff working.
55:00.904 --> 55:03.349
[SPEAKER_02]: Like the last two weeks, my feed that my podcasts.
55:03.329 --> 55:18.869
[SPEAKER_02]: Come in, it doesn't work and I'm trying to be like, this is just the time for me at first that I don't have to take some like moral stance to just be like, how you're doing things I don't like and you're not really working and there are other places I can go cultivate my best feed and go and like find the ones I really love and follow them over there.
55:18.889 --> 55:26.419
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't have to wait till Spotify is like cross some moral line for me to be like, hey, I don't like how you're moving and no thanks.
55:27.120 --> 55:28.982
[SPEAKER_00]: I have been
55:28.962 --> 55:50.515
[SPEAKER_00]: Back to the library, y'all, going to the library website, finding my little book, finding my little music that I want to listen to, and just exploring what alternatives there are, part of the reason why our platform that we use that is not Spotify works is because it does send our podcast out to everybody in lots of different ways.
55:50.495 --> 55:52.098
[SPEAKER_00]: It's already on our website.
55:52.559 --> 55:54.383
[SPEAKER_00]: It already has a separate page.
55:55.024 --> 55:58.351
[SPEAKER_00]: What would it look like if it lived on my Patreon?
55:58.371 --> 56:00.435
[SPEAKER_00]: Because there's a little podcast, but where does that go?
56:00.495 --> 56:03.020
[SPEAKER_00]: Like can we put it on sound cloud or fan camp?
56:03.040 --> 56:04.563
[SPEAKER_00]: There's all these different options.
56:05.204 --> 56:09.212
[SPEAKER_00]: Also not getting tied up into
56:09.192 --> 56:12.136
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, oh, but if it's not there, is it gonna no longer exist?
56:12.616 --> 56:20.086
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, we're not anybody cool who's like really good musician that is like held their music back and won their music back from the label.
56:20.466 --> 56:21.428
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, we're not those guys.
56:21.468 --> 56:23.290
[SPEAKER_00]: That's usually what Bam Campus for, right?
56:23.871 --> 56:35.706
[SPEAKER_00]: And also, there is something about being an independent media team that can choose where we put
56:35.686 --> 56:44.041
[SPEAKER_00]: I think one of the things that you and I have discussed that is important to just name is the whole intention of this podcast wasn't just to, you know, preached to the choir.
56:44.081 --> 56:53.037
[SPEAKER_00]: We did want it to be distributed in a way that was accessible to people who are not necessarily, you know, like I like to call on the abolition curious.
56:53.017 --> 57:00.167
[SPEAKER_00]: like we wanted people who are a little curious, but also who like pop culture that would be engaged with this kind of content.
57:00.688 --> 57:08.840
[SPEAKER_00]: And so figuring out how we reached the people that we want to reach while also maintaining our values is gonna be something that we're gonna be considering.
57:09.301 --> 57:12.265
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, our tag is come for the pop culture stay for the abolition.
57:12.325 --> 57:19.676
[SPEAKER_02]: And the joke I've been making is like, maybe like come for the abolition stay for the pop culture because for some people who don't know listen to the pop guess?
57:19.696 --> 57:22.320
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
57:22.440 --> 57:22.500
[UNKNOWN]: Hi.
57:22.649 --> 57:40.287
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, but who we are already in relationship to is like a part of the base right and who we've been building with and organizing with Um, who are largely abolitionists and so ironically it is a little come for the abolition and state for the pop culture like people who need to be talked to the pop culture But we're going to say we're going to stay
57:40.267 --> 57:58.545
[SPEAKER_00]: and the publishers bringing people in and they're going to talk to you about abolition when I first became even aware of the concept of abolition of prison abolition of the car sort of state of all of these things I did not have and still probably don't.
57:58.525 --> 58:02.570
[SPEAKER_00]: I would say have a full understanding of all of these concepts.
58:02.970 --> 58:16.647
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, ICE is a great example, like for me to be able to pull something out and be like, oh, ICE could also be this and this and that and how is DHHS involved and how is a mandatory reporting involved, how are local law enforcement?
58:16.967 --> 58:26.659
[SPEAKER_00]: That's all because of abolitionist frameworks that I have been learning about for a number of years through various conversations and experiences and trainings.
58:26.639 --> 58:32.750
[SPEAKER_00]: I would also say that, yeah, come for the abolition and please do stay for the pop culture.
58:32.790 --> 58:33.111
[SPEAKER_00]: We love it.
58:33.431 --> 58:46.555
[SPEAKER_00]: For those of us who don't have a community that will sit with us and host teachings and be consistently in a conversation or training or curriculum around abolition.
58:46.535 --> 58:51.062
[SPEAKER_00]: we still need these places that can be the bridge between this and that.
58:51.343 --> 58:58.894
[SPEAKER_00]: For example, in the Healing Justice Lending Library, we were going to the books and there's a couple books in there that are religious ask.
58:58.914 --> 59:03.462
[SPEAKER_00]: There's one about sex and sexuality that is sort of religious.
59:03.562 --> 59:06.046
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like Christian based, but laboratory theology.
59:06.787 --> 59:10.753
[SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, I don't really want this book in here.
59:10.733 --> 59:20.224
[SPEAKER_00]: For me, if it were up to me, I would not include this book because I don't really want anything that has to do with Christianity and anything that I do if I can help it.
59:20.645 --> 59:23.088
[SPEAKER_00]: And I have already expressed a million times why that's true.
59:23.268 --> 59:24.069
[SPEAKER_00]: So we're not going to get into that.
59:24.349 --> 59:33.180
[SPEAKER_00]: But I also understand that before I needed books like this to be the bridge to more libertory theology.
59:33.160 --> 59:57.885
[SPEAKER_00]: my belief system around what it takes for cultural transformation is that there is a raging river between us and liberation and our job is to figure out how many stones we have to throw in that river to make it across and we're all throwing stones and some of them like calling your legislator just kidding you can call them I don't care.
01:00:01.578 --> 01:00:04.322
[SPEAKER_02]: can be calling them, but if you want to listen, it's on you.
01:00:04.462 --> 01:00:12.153
[SPEAKER_00]: If you want to throw that hollow lock into that raging river and try to cross it like be my guess or that pebble that we'll sing like go for it.
01:00:12.333 --> 01:00:13.134
[SPEAKER_00]: Go for it whatever.
01:00:13.235 --> 01:00:15.237
[SPEAKER_00]: It's honestly not taking any labor for me.
01:00:16.379 --> 01:00:22.067
[SPEAKER_00]: But like to me, that is what I've always imagined my work as being is that
01:00:22.047 --> 01:00:37.482
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm trying to figure out how I get across, I'm trying to figure out what is the best way to communicate these ideas and to share them that doesn't water them down, that does allow people to see themselves in it in a minute of different ways.
01:00:37.902 --> 01:00:51.075
[SPEAKER_00]: For example, there was a college student who was pepper sprayed and East Lansing within five seconds of a cop coming across him trying
01:00:51.055 --> 01:00:52.397
[SPEAKER_00]: No violence has happened.
01:00:52.837 --> 01:00:53.598
[SPEAKER_00]: Nothing has happened.
01:00:53.618 --> 01:00:57.023
[SPEAKER_00]: He's standing in front of a restaurant waiting to be served.
01:00:57.403 --> 01:00:59.846
[SPEAKER_00]: The cop touches his shoulder five seconds later.
01:00:59.866 --> 01:01:02.910
[SPEAKER_00]: He's being pepper sprayed in the face within a foot.
01:01:03.531 --> 01:01:12.322
[SPEAKER_00]: The risk of permanent damage to his eyesight and they don't give him any medical support until after he's released, which is like 14 hours later.
01:01:12.342 --> 01:01:17.248
[SPEAKER_00]: And they say it's because he was
01:01:17.228 --> 01:01:19.973
[SPEAKER_00]: they knew he wasn't drunk when they put him in the car.
01:01:20.574 --> 01:01:25.884
[SPEAKER_00]: All of this to say the chief, which I think I talked about in the last, we'll hope these happen in order.
01:01:26.966 --> 01:01:30.653
[SPEAKER_00]: Police chief Jen, Jen Brown lied, right?
01:01:30.773 --> 01:01:33.859
[SPEAKER_00]: She didn't share all the body camp footage, all of these things are going on.
01:01:33.959 --> 01:01:37.566
[SPEAKER_00]: And one of the things that I have learned as I'm going to these city council meetings,
01:01:37.546 --> 01:01:42.911
[SPEAKER_00]: is that there are all these business owners that are showing up and being like, it's wild in these streets.
01:01:42.931 --> 01:01:44.473
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think someone called it like a war zone.
01:01:44.493 --> 01:01:46.535
[SPEAKER_00]: They're like, it's a war zone in East Lansing.
01:01:46.575 --> 01:01:50.078
[SPEAKER_00]: And like two AM, my staff are afraid to go to their cars.
01:01:50.099 --> 01:01:51.320
[SPEAKER_00]: There's kids with guns.
01:01:51.420 --> 01:01:52.101
[SPEAKER_00]: I shut you not.
01:01:52.341 --> 01:01:54.223
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, these are real things that we're set.
01:01:54.643 --> 01:01:55.103
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm sure.
01:01:55.124 --> 01:01:57.266
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, people say that stuff about Seattle, right?
01:01:57.286 --> 01:01:59.328
[SPEAKER_02]: That's like Trump administration's stuff too.
01:01:59.348 --> 01:01:59.448
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
01:01:59.468 --> 01:02:05.834
[SPEAKER_02]: And I will tell you, there is no neighborhood in Seattle where I will not go like the where I will not go.
01:02:05.854 --> 01:02:06.675
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's just not true.
01:02:06.655 --> 01:02:17.104
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know, I'm a night owl, so I have definitely driven through East Lansing at various hours of the night doing whatever the fuck I happen to be doing and I have never felt like it was a war zone.
01:02:17.525 --> 01:02:19.667
[SPEAKER_00]: Also Michigan is an open carry state.
01:02:19.927 --> 01:02:25.752
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I've seen a lot of white men out here with their aches and just wandering around the Capitol building.
01:02:26.012 --> 01:02:28.715
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think it's really fascinating that this is an issue.
01:02:28.755 --> 01:02:34.840
[SPEAKER_00]: All of that to say they kept challenging people and being like, you haven't ever been down here and I was like, you know,
01:02:34.820 --> 01:02:55.984
[SPEAKER_00]: We should go down there, not just to do cop watch, but to pass out waters, to communicate with young people who may or may not be about to do some bullshit, even if they're just playing games, helping them know their rights, part of the reason for that is, of course, I want to see what the cops are doing obviously.
01:02:55.964 --> 01:03:00.108
[SPEAKER_00]: and to be a reliable witness, you know, like, no, I went down there.
01:03:00.128 --> 01:03:14.941
[SPEAKER_00]: It was just down there, but also because I keep thinking about the business owners who have no imagination for how to protect their business and support the community at the same time, they have no imagination for that outside of the cops.
01:03:15.401 --> 01:03:24.469
[SPEAKER_00]: They literally are in a city council meeting talking shit and supporting a police chief about a kid who is literally
01:03:24.449 --> 01:03:44.567
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, the things that they don't know were pay attention to is like the loyalty of so many of the communities that they're targeting that if you do right by those communities, if you are like, hey, here's resource for the community, hey, yes, like let's do our your team who's a mirrorless, let's have her come and do her art on our building, you actually invest in community so many of those communities are deeply loyal and will be right or die for you.
01:03:44.547 --> 01:03:49.455
[SPEAKER_02]: And we'll absolutely be like, oh, we don't mess with that business because that business has our back, that business is a community business.
01:03:49.796 --> 01:03:53.962
[SPEAKER_02]: If somebody messes with you who isn't part of the community, they will come help you clean up.
01:03:54.023 --> 01:03:55.144
[SPEAKER_02]: They will fundraise for you.
01:03:55.285 --> 01:03:58.851
[SPEAKER_02]: Part of that is that loyalty actually is like cultivated.
01:03:58.871 --> 01:04:00.153
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know why people don't know.
01:04:00.233 --> 01:04:02.256
[SPEAKER_02]: I think it's the isolation of like white supremacy, right?
01:04:02.336 --> 01:04:08.867
[SPEAKER_02]: Makes people think like individually and set up that they're
01:04:09.134 --> 01:04:18.364
[SPEAKER_00]: Right, and they would have to actually take responsibility for over-serving college students and then calling the police to wait across the street as they leave the bar.
01:04:18.985 --> 01:04:37.386
[SPEAKER_00]: It's both what you're saying, and it's also like an absence of their own accountability for the ways that they participate in creating a community that isn't as safe as it could be even for just talking medically, like maybe don't over-serve young people who may or may not be doing any number of things afterwards.
01:04:37.366 --> 01:04:39.389
[SPEAKER_00]: For me, that's sort of what this podcast is.
01:04:39.690 --> 01:04:42.495
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like you don't have an imagination for what this could look like.
01:04:42.915 --> 01:04:44.077
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's imagine it together.
01:04:44.538 --> 01:05:00.184
[SPEAKER_00]: And let me provide you with an example of what this could look like if we were invested in keeping people safe and caring for them and believing that they actually belong to a space versus treating anybody in everybody and to be clear, black and brown people.
01:05:00.164 --> 01:05:10.488
[SPEAKER_00]: as the enemy to the point that you are supporting a police chief that would lie about them and criminalize them in this country where it costs so much money.
01:05:10.508 --> 01:05:16.401
[SPEAKER_00]: It has such a long-term impact on their ability to have a sustainable future.
01:05:16.786 --> 01:05:19.410
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I so appreciate your thought partnership.
01:05:19.911 --> 01:05:28.584
[SPEAKER_02]: This is maybe not the most non-traditional episode, but like a different kind of experiment and just that we were both noticing this trend in our relationship to pop culture.
01:05:28.645 --> 01:05:33.973
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's one of those things where all of my ideas about it were fully fleshed out, where I was like, I'm excited.
01:05:34.013 --> 01:05:41.845
[SPEAKER_02]: I was talking my friend, Laurie Ed, I was like, oh, I'm excited to like, just be in conversation about it because my thoughts and feelings about it are evolving.
01:05:41.885 --> 01:05:44.970
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, I don't have a magic solution for these times, right?
01:05:44.950 --> 01:05:51.640
[SPEAKER_02]: I just continue to grounded my values, grounded my relationships, grounded what's important to me, and then keep turning towards these questions.
01:05:52.061 --> 01:06:07.544
[SPEAKER_02]: As our landscape is changing, you know, and it's I really heard you talk about that being right-sized and realistic about what's really happening, and not our vision, our hopes, and our dreams of what could happen, but it's like, what is happening in front of us, and being very real about it, is an important part of actually fighting fascism, right?
01:06:07.624 --> 01:06:12.612
[SPEAKER_02]: Fighting the lies that are being told to us, and the changing reality around us,
01:06:12.592 --> 01:06:23.631
[SPEAKER_02]: And I just so appreciate being able to be in conversation and continue to stay grounded around like we get to love things and we are fierce in our values and we are going to figure it out step by step about how to move forward.
01:06:23.898 --> 01:06:29.066
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm really excited to see what future Tashmika comes up with for the title of this episode.
01:06:29.687 --> 01:06:32.973
[SPEAKER_02]: By the time people will see a little already of part of the clever thing that you call this.
01:06:33.413 --> 01:06:38.121
[SPEAKER_02]: And I can't wait to see what future Tashmika tells us the title of this episode is.
01:06:38.261 --> 01:06:39.664
[SPEAKER_02]: You already know this in our boat.
01:06:39.684 --> 01:06:41.567
[SPEAKER_00]: We don't know right here right now.
01:06:41.587 --> 01:06:42.909
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it'll be a surprise to all of us.
01:06:42.949 --> 01:06:48.538
[SPEAKER_00]: Usually I figured out right after I listened to it for the last time and have to make the show note.
01:06:49.987 --> 01:07:07.422
[SPEAKER_02]: And I discover it once it goes on, but I'm like, well, look at this, look at this, look at this, look at this, look at this, look at this, look at this, look at this, look at this, look at this, look at this, look at this, look at this, look at this, look at this, look at this, look at this, look at this, look at this, look at this, look at this, look at this, look at this, look at this, look at this, look at this, look at this, look at this, look at this, look at this, look at this, look at this, look at this, look at this, look at this, look at this, look at this, look at this, look at this, look at this, look at this, look at this, look at this, look at this, look at this, look at this, look at this, look at this, look at this, look at this, look at this, look at this