WEBVTT
1
00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:17.420
[gentle music] Welcome to OCD Whisperer Podcast. This is your host, Christina Arlova. Here, we will talk about all things OCD. For more information and to contact me with questions, you can go to www.korresults.com.
2
00:00:17.900 --> 00:00:33.600
That's K-O-R results.com. Welcome to OCD Whisperer Show. Today, I have Jonathan Schultz with me, and Jonathan has a doctorate degree in organizational leadership and a master's degree in educational counseling.
3
00:00:34.180 --> 00:00:43.320
He's actually an academic counselor at Bakersfield College, and his job is to make sure that students have what they need to meet their personal and academic goals.
4
00:00:43.460 --> 00:00:55.520
So Jonathan is somebody who was formerly diagnosed with anxiety, depression, ADHD around 18 years old, and in around, at around 20,000, 2014, he got diagnosed with OCD.
5
00:00:56.340 --> 00:01:07.590
Um, Jonathan has had a couple of, uh, mental breakdowns, uh, around his OCD experience, and finally received ERP treatment, um, at age of 32.
6
00:01:07.900 --> 00:01:16.580
And, you know, today, one of the things we will talk about is kind of that journey that Jonathan went through of getting diagnosed and, you know, getting to the right treatment.
7
00:01:17.200 --> 00:01:27.900
Um, Jonathan, um, also he and his wife have written a book, which is awesome, and it's gonna be published next year, and he's very active on Instagram and TikTok.
8
00:01:28.540 --> 00:01:39.800
Um, and I'll make sure to include those handles in the show notes so that- Okay... you guys can follow. Um, and he has been married since 2012 and has three awesome children, seven, five, and three.
9
00:01:39.940 --> 00:01:47.420
So welcome to the show, Jonathan. Thank you, Christina, for having me. I'm really excited about this. Yeah. I'm, I'm really glad I reached out to you.
10
00:01:47.600 --> 00:01:54.790
Um, I've been seeing your posts, and it kind of caught my attention and, you know, I, I love to have people on the show who have lived experience. Yeah.
11
00:01:54.920 --> 00:02:02.460
Um, you know, just talking a little bit more and continuing to spread the word and kind of relate to others. Absolutely. Um- Absolutely. Yeah.
12
00:02:02.480 --> 00:02:11.109
So I think one of the things that we briefly kinda talked about, and I would love to have you share with us, is kinda your journey. Like, what was that beginning of that process?
13
00:02:11.340 --> 00:02:20.760
Because I think a lot of people probably will relate to, you know, getting wrong messages or not even being sure if it's OCD. Yeah. So maybe share with us kind of what, what that was like for you.
14
00:02:21.220 --> 00:02:31.180
Yeah, for sure, and that's actually one of the reasons why I like to be so active on social media, is I, I think my story is, it's somewhat unique, but the more I get into it, it's, it's a little more common than I think people realize.
15
00:02:31.280 --> 00:02:44.300
Um, so the, the formal diagnosis came for the OCD diagnosis, um, about th- uh, 13 years ago when I was around 21. Um, I had a really... I was in college. I was about ready to graduate with my bachelor's degree.
16
00:02:44.860 --> 00:02:55.340
I had previously been diagnosed with, um, anxiety and ADHD, interestingly enough, 'cause I played sports in college and, um, I was missing balls in the outfield 'cause I couldn't see them.
17
00:02:55.440 --> 00:03:04.160
So we went through all kinds of tests to see if I had vision problems or a tumor, and it turned out I was just getting anxious and my focus was changing. So that was the initial anxiety.
18
00:03:04.700 --> 00:03:16.240
After a breakdown, um, I, I was diagnosed with OCD, but I went to a therapist or a psychologist that did not know how to treat it. Um, never spoke about ERP, um, never did.
19
00:03:16.380 --> 00:03:25.960
He didn't even know, never mentioned what exposures were or anything. So I did kind of the traditional CBT therapy for a while. I don't know, it helped a little bit.
20
00:03:26.040 --> 00:03:36.680
I was given some medication, which was more helpful 'cause I wasn't getting the right therapy. But then the big kind of... And, and if I really trace it back, I mean, I had my first OCD cycle at the age of seven.
21
00:03:37.040 --> 00:03:46.680
So I, I can remember my first spin when I was seven, so really, I've had it my whole life. But this is, you know, the diagnosed piece that's a little more interesting. I had a, I was 32 years old.
22
00:03:46.880 --> 00:03:59.800
Um, so I went 10, 12 years without therapy 'cause, I mean, it, I wasn't getting what I needed. Um, I was, uh, I was ending my doctoral program, and I really started hitting that classical OCD cycle.
23
00:03:59.920 --> 00:04:09.390
Didn't really know how to help myself by any means. Um, on the way home from a vacation, I just had a horrible... Finally, everything came to a head.
24
00:04:09.480 --> 00:04:20.720
I finally admitted to my wife what was going on, all the different thoughts. Um, definitely suicidal at that point. And the, the, so, you know, after we got home from the vacation, we made some phone calls.
25
00:04:20.820 --> 00:04:31.380
I went back to the initial therapist that diagnosed me 13 years ago, and I actually had two books with me. I had Brain Lock by Jeffrey Schwartz- Mm... and, um, uh, one other one. I can't remember.
26
00:04:31.480 --> 00:04:39.520
And I walked in and I said, um, you know, "I'm, I'm back [laughs]," and I said, "How, nice seeing you again," you know, and he kinda laughed. And he
27
00:04:40.560 --> 00:04:47.600
said, you know, I said, "I have, my OCD's flaring up," and he showed me a video. And I was like, "I, I know I've seen this video before."
28
00:04:48.000 --> 00:04:58.260
Well, he showed me the same video that he showed me 13 years ago when he diagnosed me, and I was like... And, and, and it was a VHS video. I mean, we're in 2022. Like, VHS video, you know?
29
00:04:58.700 --> 00:05:09.280
[laughs] And the video said, this is true, "We now know Paxil can treat OCD." And I was like, "Now know?" Like, it was back in, like, the '80s. And so I said, "Well, what can I do? Here's a book.
30
00:05:09.460 --> 00:05:19.930
Like, I wanna do something. I, you know, what can I do?" And he said, "You can read all the books you want, but all we can do is really give you more medication to help OCD." Mm. I was like, "Frick," like, "Really?
31
00:05:19.980 --> 00:05:27.000
Are you sure? 'Cause this book..." And he said, "No," like, "That's, that's all we can do, is just prescribe more meds." So I left very defeated.
32
00:05:27.240 --> 00:05:38.540
Um, the next day I had a appointment with a psychiatrist to get medication and, or more medication, and he's taking notes and he said, you know, "Are you going to ERP?" I'm like, "What's ERP?
33
00:05:38.620 --> 00:05:46.310
Like, that's in a book, but, like, I was told that doesn't work, you know?" And he said, "No," like, "If you have OCD, like, you need to go get ERP." Like, "Are you serious?
34
00:05:46.340 --> 00:05:50.820
I was just told yesterday that you need more medication." He said, "No," like, "Go to ERP." I said, "Well, where do I go for this?"
35
00:05:51.260 --> 00:05:57.760
And I live in a small little farm town in, in California, so, um, he said, "I don't know." Like, "We don't have anybody close by that can do this.
36
00:05:58.400 --> 00:06:05.390
But I just had a client who went to a place in LA called OCD LA," and I hope I can say that. If not, you can bleep- Of course. Oh, yeah... Yeah, you can, you can bleep that out.
37
00:06:05.390 --> 00:06:15.364
This podcast, we share all sorts of resources. Yeah. Yeah. They're awesome. I mean, they're, they're, they're awesome. So yeah, I'm, and I'm still going there.Um, and so I, I luckily, the psychiatrist was the opposite.
38
00:06:15.444 --> 00:06:21.414
He was like, "We could do more meds, but you need the behavioral component. Like, that's what you have to do." I'm like, "Oh my gosh," like, "This is great."
39
00:06:21.454 --> 00:06:30.244
So as I hung up with him, 'cause it was virtual, you know, COVID season, I called OCDLA. Um, ironically, they called me back about 20 minutes later.
40
00:06:30.264 --> 00:06:35.764
It was definitely a godsend, and I got hooked up with my, my current therapist, Chris, and we started the, the ERP journey.
41
00:06:36.344 --> 00:06:45.124
And, um, you know, if, if I had not gotten that second opinion from the psychiatrist, I don't know where I'd be right now. I wouldn't be working. Um, might not even be alive. I really don't know.
42
00:06:45.184 --> 00:06:55.144
But I absolutely would not be working, 'cause I had to take some time off work for a little while, um, to take care of this. So, um, it was, it was interesting and, and, uh, it was scary, it was frustrating.
43
00:06:55.244 --> 00:07:04.524
And then as things calmed down, um, I asked my therapist how I could get involved in the community. I don't really wanna go back and go to more school, but, um...
44
00:07:04.564 --> 00:07:12.264
And he mentioned advocacy, and I said, "I like to talk, so let's post my story on Instagram [laughs] and TikTok," and here we are. So. Oh, that's awesome. [laughs] Yeah. So that's me.
45
00:07:12.344 --> 00:07:17.914
I was curious how you got started and on- Uh-huh... the social media. So that, that's great. I mean, you said so many things- [laughs]...
46
00:07:17.944 --> 00:07:27.464
in terms of, like, I think people on average learn and know that it, it really does take, you know, literature says anywhere from, you know, 7 to 14 years to really get a proper diagnosis.
47
00:07:27.524 --> 00:07:36.654
Because I think exactly right, there's so many things that are happening internally that we kinda still don't fully, um, know or are aware of. Yeah.
48
00:07:36.654 --> 00:07:45.634
And so we, we kind of don't connect those dots, like, "Oh, this might be OCD." Um, I mean, I literally have had the same experience where, you know, for the longest time didn't know it. Yeah, yeah.
49
00:07:45.644 --> 00:07:56.354
Um, and, and I think the other piece that you're mentioning that, yeah, like once you do get it, not, unfortunately every professional is kinda trained or up to date. Right.
50
00:07:56.374 --> 00:08:07.404
And so sometimes you may actually get wrong information, right? Or somebody might say, "Yeah, go get CBT," but CBT, just basic traditional CBT- Can be hurtful...
51
00:08:07.714 --> 00:08:17.404
th- there's parts of that that are actually not right for OCD, um- Absolutely, yeah... right? Like, I think people hear about things like, you know, looking evidence for or against a thought, for example.
52
00:08:17.424 --> 00:08:22.753
Yeah, or- Like, that's only gonna perpetuate your mental analysis, right? Exactly. Yeah. Or, like, the rubber band, you know, to stop thoughts.
53
00:08:22.804 --> 00:08:32.724
Like, wait a minute, these are all things that literally do not work for OCD brain. They might work and, and they do for other anxiety disorders [laughs] but not OCD. Yeah. No, they hurt. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, they do.
54
00:08:32.804 --> 00:08:44.424
They actually perpetuate more compulsions. [laughs] Mm-hmm, for sure. Um, so since you're somebody who's had ERP training, for anybody listening who doesn't know what that is, that's exposure and response prevention.
55
00:08:44.494 --> 00:08:56.584
That's right. It is a behavioral, um, aspect of cognitive behavioral therapy. Um, can you tell us a little bit of kind of what about it has helped you and, you know, why do you think that it is important? Yeah.
56
00:08:56.644 --> 00:09:04.154
So, um, for, for me, and I, I'm assuming the audience, I know I've listened to a lot of your stuff, so there's a, there's probably a decent understanding.
57
00:09:04.184 --> 00:09:11.164
But ERP is, you know, the foundational OS- I mean, that is what you need to do when you have OCD, and it's, you know, exposure and response prevention.
58
00:09:11.224 --> 00:09:17.044
You expose yourself to the stimulus that, that scares you, but you do response prevention or you prevent yourself from doing the rituals.
59
00:09:17.724 --> 00:09:27.664
So for me, the first thing that was really eye-opening going through, and my therapist was phenomenal on how he laid it out, and I'll give him a shout-out. Chris Concata from, um, OCDLA.
60
00:09:27.724 --> 00:09:35.124
I know he can't confirm or deny that he knows me, but, um, uh, uh- [laughs]... he's, he's literally saved my life. Um, and I said that in the book. But, um,
61
00:09:36.064 --> 00:09:44.464
w- what I learned at the beginning was there was a lot of things that myself and my wife thought we were doing to help that was really reinforcing the irrational thought, right?
62
00:09:44.584 --> 00:09:54.604
So going to my wife for reassurance, um, compulsively praying over and over, researching things online. Everything that I thought was information-seeking. Even positive self-talk, right?
63
00:09:54.644 --> 00:09:58.564
You hear all the time, like, "Give yourself positive self-talk," and now I'm like, I'm doing the opposite.
64
00:09:58.624 --> 00:10:07.624
I'm giving myself negative self-talk, or, or no self-talk [laughs] um, because I found out very quickly that those were not only not helpful, they were detrimental.
65
00:10:07.724 --> 00:10:16.904
Because they were reinforcing whatever my irrational thought, my image, my feeling was. So initially going through the process, it was very much learning.
66
00:10:16.984 --> 00:10:24.924
Like, oh man, like, you mean I shouldn't go to my wife and ask her every day if she loves me in a compulsive way? I shouldn't ask my kids if they think I'm a good father?
67
00:10:25.484 --> 00:10:32.223
Um, so it was really that first information-getting, like it was very eye-opening. And then understanding why.
68
00:10:32.264 --> 00:10:39.363
Like, it, it didn't make sense at first, and my wife didn't understand it either, but it was like, oh, you know, this is a biological, almost evolutionary thing.
69
00:10:39.864 --> 00:10:46.424
We see a lion, we get scared, we run, and then if the lion comes back, we get scared again. Well, we fear a thought.
70
00:10:46.544 --> 00:10:55.524
The, the running is s- is what's reinforcing the lion is scary, well, the re- the reassurance is reinforcing the thought scary. So whenever that thought comes back, of course anxiety's gonna happen.
71
00:10:55.604 --> 00:11:01.924
It's, it's biological. It's literally what was supposed to happen in a normal situation. Our brain is just taking it down a path.
72
00:11:01.984 --> 00:11:13.564
So, um, understanding how to not do the, or, or, or limit the, the compulsions was really interesting and, and very educational. But then the exposure piece was really cool.
73
00:11:13.744 --> 00:11:24.284
It sucks, but it's really cool because some of the books I've read didn't emphasize i- an exposure, just to give a, you know- Yeah... a more example, and I'm assuming you've covered it, so I don't wanna d- kill it.
74
00:11:24.404 --> 00:11:37.484
But, um, you go towards the thing that you initially were avoiding, the thought, the stimulus, the situation. Instead of avoiding that Facebook post, you go back and reread it and you don't Google the, the answer to it.
75
00:11:37.944 --> 00:11:47.844
So, you know, I had never really seen what the exposure piece was. And I remember my therapist saying, "This is gonna be one of the most helpful parts of that as long as you can do response prevention.
76
00:11:48.364 --> 00:11:58.464
Um, you know, it's gonna be hard at times, but it's gonna be necessary." And I've really seen the benefit in that, both for my OCD but also for my personal life as well, too. Wow.
77
00:11:58.584 --> 00:12:03.544
That's, yeah, a lot of stuff you covered there, too. Um, and yeah, I mean, I, I think that's exactly right.
78
00:12:03.604 --> 00:12:10.484
You're hitting on an important element where, you know, a lot of people kinda get nervous when they hear the words exposure response prevention. Mm-hmm.
79
00:12:10.494 --> 00:12:19.822
And, and they kind of I think sometimes have this w-Kind of myth or biased thinking of like, "Oh my gosh, I'm gonna like dive off the deep end, like right into my scariest stuff." Yeah, no.
80
00:12:19.822 --> 00:12:26.212
And what, you want, you want me to do what? And entertain what? Um, can you speak a little bit about that, like what that process was? Yeah.
81
00:12:26.352 --> 00:12:33.922
So the way my therapist approached it, and if you read some of the books, there's a few different kind of approaches out there for the exposures.
82
00:12:33.932 --> 00:12:38.732
And I like what my therapist did, which is kind of the traditional hierarchy ladder or, or menu.
83
00:12:39.202 --> 00:12:51.572
And what that is is you take your top 10 usually issues that bother you, in the s- in the order of, you know, 10 is a panic attack, you wanna, you can't deal with this thought. One is, is somewhat manageable.
84
00:12:51.592 --> 00:13:01.352
And you basically are working your way up. Um, that's what I did. And, um, what I noticed, and I remember him saying, "You're never really gonna go above a six or a seven."
85
00:13:01.392 --> 00:13:08.482
That was kind of the, the approach, and then it, it changed as we went. We actually just... 'Cause I kind of looked at it a little differently, um, towards the end.
86
00:13:09.072 --> 00:13:18.952
Um, but at the beginning it was nice because, one, you don't approach something so scary that you, the only way to, to help yourself deal with it is compulsions.
87
00:13:18.992 --> 00:13:23.352
I mean, it's kind of like throwing someone in the deep end that can't swim. You gotta learn how to swim first.
88
00:13:23.412 --> 00:13:30.512
So what we did at the, especially at the beginning, is we would take a, a theme that was scary but not too scary and approach that.
89
00:13:30.572 --> 00:13:40.632
You know, if I was nervous about holding my kids, which was tough for a while, um, you know, I would maybe get closer to them and put 'em on my lap, and then I'd pick 'em up and walk with them and, you know.
90
00:13:40.992 --> 00:13:50.912
And kind of work your way up towards the stimulus. And what that did for me, and what it does for others usually, is the 10s become eights, the eights become sevens, the sevens become sixes.
91
00:13:51.252 --> 00:14:01.472
So you never really go to that six or that seven because they come down to you. You don't necessarily go up to them. They, they come down to you because you are learning the biology part of it.
92
00:14:01.552 --> 00:14:10.432
You're learning kind of the irrationality of the thought. Not in a reinforcing way, but just, you know, in a new thought pattern. Um, and, and we went up the hierarchy that way.
93
00:14:10.472 --> 00:14:15.542
And I still, I still do exposures almost every day, um- Awesome, yeah. And, and, uh- Some way or another...
94
00:14:15.542 --> 00:14:24.191
yeah, and I think part of what you're hitting on now too is, is I think that once you do have ha- once you've had that training with ERP or ERP and ACT aspects- Mm-hmm...
95
00:14:24.292 --> 00:14:33.662
um, you know, but once you kind of put that together, it's kinda like saying, "Hey, as a lifestyle now, I'm going to be really kinda taking this on." So, right? Like, how you make- Yeah...
96
00:14:33.662 --> 00:14:43.662
decisions now, I'm assuming probably is gonna be a little different because now you're like, "Oh yeah, this is a thing I feel the, uh, you know, natural urge to avoid, but actually I know I'm gonna, I'm gonna go for it because-" Yeah...
97
00:14:43.662 --> 00:14:54.232
"it's good for me." So, so you start to make decisions differently. And so it becomes like an organic, natural- Yeah... kind of change. I, I've even embedded that in my parenting. Um, my son's a lot like me.
98
00:14:54.312 --> 00:15:03.212
He's the seven-year-old. And, um, he's got my anxiety, he's got my issues, and so we put him into jujitsu to... 'Cause that's a scary thing for people with anxiety, you gotta be wrestling.
99
00:15:03.632 --> 00:15:09.292
And I'll tell him, like, "Look, sometimes, son, life's gonna be hard. You're just gonna have to go through it. You know, you can't go around it, you gotta go through it."
100
00:15:09.372 --> 00:15:15.772
So yeah, it's, it's really infiltrating even my parenting, so. [laughs] That's actually really beautiful and cool to hear. Yeah.
101
00:15:15.782 --> 00:15:24.252
[laughs] Now, um, I wanna circle back to something you mentioned about you guys wrote a book, and in the book. So we haven't even touched on that. Can you tell us a little bit about what the book is about?
102
00:15:24.332 --> 00:15:32.952
Uh, like what, when? Do you have any idea for next year when people could look for it? So we actually have two. One is published right now, one is coming out, um, next year.
103
00:15:33.152 --> 00:15:43.872
What happened was the day, June 6, when I had my really bad breakdown and I wanted to kill myself and it was just terrible, my wife looked at me and she said, um, "How can I help you?" I said, "I don't know.
104
00:15:43.942 --> 00:15:56.162
Like, I can't even help myself." So, um, you know, we had the, the appointment with the psychologist the next day and still didn't get any help. And we were like, "F- you know, we wanna help people once I'm, I'm level."
105
00:15:56.472 --> 00:16:07.272
And, um, 'cause this was just, you know, a very debilitating disorder. So, um, I, uh... So after that happened and then we finally got the help, we were like, "You know, we need to do this to..."
106
00:16:07.372 --> 00:16:15.572
So the book was initially gonna be called How Can I Help You? But then now it's, the one published, is called Obsessed: A Couple's Story, um, Dealing With Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder.
107
00:16:16.112 --> 00:16:20.832
And, and what I think, and there's a lot of good books out there, I mean, so it's not like ours is better than, than others.
108
00:16:21.212 --> 00:16:32.592
But I think what sets it apart and what, what we do is we, we don't hit our story, we don't hit ERP, we don't hit s- we, we try to hit everything as, as little as we can, but with enough to make a difference.
109
00:16:32.632 --> 00:16:40.462
So we tell our story to help people see what it's like having with it, l- having it and, and living with it, uh, you know, to kind of see both sides.
110
00:16:40.912 --> 00:16:48.132
And then I try to explain what I did, 'cause I think there's a difference sometimes when you read books from people that have been through it and people that just research it, you know?
111
00:16:48.332 --> 00:16:58.212
Um, one reason I love Jonathan Hirschfield books over others is he's, you know, he has it and he's prac- he's a practitioner, right? So his are a little more relatable. So ours is only relatable.
112
00:16:58.292 --> 00:17:10.432
So we talk about what happened, um, what, what I had to do, the ERP method that we followed. I have a little bit of a different approach to exposures, so I kind of, I have a little, a little piece on there that I do.
113
00:17:10.812 --> 00:17:19.592
And then we, as we were going through and all these questions we had, we literally wrote down questions that I asked my therapist, and then we just took the answers and we put 'em in a book.
114
00:17:19.652 --> 00:17:27.952
So it's basically like this is what we went through. How do you deal with a breakdown? How do you deal with the thoughts that I have bipolar? How do you deal with, you know, I think I'm schizophrenic?
115
00:17:28.352 --> 00:17:34.082
Um, and we just answer those questions in the book as well. So it's about 111 pages, um, is the one that's published.
116
00:17:34.202 --> 00:17:43.962
And then the second one that we're working on now, ironically the best feedback we got was about my wife's portion of the book, which is the shortest portion of the book, so it kind of ticked me off a little bit [laughs].
117
00:17:44.222 --> 00:17:51.172
But, uh, but she's phenomenal. So that, but, but people were very interested in like that side, like how do you support someone that has OCD?
118
00:17:51.192 --> 00:18:01.132
And then as we were looking through, there's only one or maybe two books out there, um, that I've seen. There's one called Living With OC- or Loving Someone With OCD. Mm. There's not a lot there.
119
00:18:01.172 --> 00:18:11.152
So this is totally from her perspective, um, how to self-care for her, what she should do, what to not do, and it's, it's really for anybody that is supporting or loving someone with OCD.
120
00:18:11.752 --> 00:18:22.173
Um, I, I help her, I'm helping her write it just-As 'cause I like to write, but this is her book. Um, I don't know the title of that. That'll be out, I think, um, probably next June, I think.
121
00:18:22.184 --> 00:18:29.604
We're almost done with it, but we're, we're cleaning up a few things. Um, and I think that's gonna be the best one that we have. But we really just wanna help. I'm not trying to make money.
122
00:18:29.704 --> 00:18:39.694
Um, you know, we, we explain things in a way that, uh, I think are easy to read. My dissertation, my chair of- often said, uh, I write like I talk [laughs] which isn't good for a dissertation.
123
00:18:40.024 --> 00:18:48.924
But it's good for, I think, for, for, for- Yeah... books that you're trying to help others with, right? So, um, I think our writing style is easy to read, but then, um, we don't have a lot of fluff.
124
00:18:48.984 --> 00:18:52.744
We cut out all the fluff as well. That's awesome. And I mean, I, I, I agree.
125
00:18:52.944 --> 00:19:03.124
I think in general, you know, people who are dealing with this and, and really, you know, take a brave step towards, you know, putting themselves out there, I mean, I think that's, that's the goal, right?
126
00:19:03.184 --> 00:19:07.644
It, it's- Yeah... I'm literally trying to help because I've gone through something like this, right?
127
00:19:07.694 --> 00:19:14.704
And I'm, and I'm trying to put something out there that other people can relate to, that it's easy, it's understandable, right? That they can- Yeah... actually see.
128
00:19:14.804 --> 00:19:23.744
Like, like you said, in the very beginning, and I kinda smile 'cause I'm like, "Right." Oftentimes when you're starting, you think, "Oh my gosh, this is so unique. Somehow this is-" Yeah... "I'm so different.
129
00:19:23.784 --> 00:19:32.464
This is so special." I'm the only one. Right? Yeah. And then, yeah, you get into it and you're like, "Oh my God," like, "This is so common." [laughs] yeah. This is like, "Wait a minute." Yeah. "So many people have this."
130
00:19:32.534 --> 00:19:40.434
[laughs] Yeah, yeah. Um- Yeah, for sure... and then you realize, "Wow, okay, I am not unique in that way." No. [laughs] Like, this is, this is written about in so many places. Yeah.
131
00:19:40.444 --> 00:19:47.244
It's just, you know, when you don't know about it, you feel isolated, and then you find out- Yeah... and you're like, "Whoa." Yeah. Um, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I think that's awesome.
132
00:19:47.824 --> 00:19:50.364
Um, one last question before, uh, before we end.
133
00:19:50.484 --> 00:20:01.194
So now that you've had this, you know, therapy that it sounds like, you know, you're still continuing that, which is great, um, can you tell us a little bit kinda generally, like
134
00:20:02.544 --> 00:20:07.864
what's your kinda overall well- wellbeing kinda plan or, or what do you do, right? Because I think oftentimes people...
135
00:20:07.904 --> 00:20:16.744
and a lot of discussions are around, you know, medication and behavioral therapy or just behavioral therapy or a combo of two. But I think sometimes people forget, like, you know, you're a whole person.
136
00:20:16.784 --> 00:20:28.204
Like there's- Yeah... there's more to us than just those two aspects. So what else can you do or do you do for overall wellbeing and health? So I think personally, we will see in the...
137
00:20:28.234 --> 00:20:38.004
and I think you'll see more than me be- because you're a practitioner obviously, that soon part of therapy, um, protocols are gonna have more physical and nutritional guidelines.
138
00:20:38.184 --> 00:20:43.944
I really do think we're seeing that in other medical fields. You know, people come in with blood pressure now, and it's not just medication, it's also.
139
00:20:44.424 --> 00:20:57.364
So I've, I've really noticed with me, I try to eat clean, meaning anything that, that our ancestors could have eaten, I try to eat that. Um, I don't drink alcohol anymore. I used to drink way too much alcohol.
140
00:20:57.844 --> 00:21:09.364
I, I am on medication for, for, um, my OCD. I, um, I've been on that since I was 19. But, um, w- which I think obviously there's a part for that. But for me, when you're looking at that, it's the eating is important.
141
00:21:09.564 --> 00:21:24.104
I definitely try to work out physically something, um, just, you know, weights or run at least five to six times a week. Um, and, and if I don't do those things, I definitely see my, my anxiety go up.
142
00:21:24.224 --> 00:21:33.684
Um, I also am very focused on sleep. I've really gotten into, there's a great podcast, um, a guy named Andrew Huberman. I'm not trying to pitch another podcast, but, um, Andrew Huberman's great.
143
00:21:33.724 --> 00:21:38.504
He's a neuroscientist, neurobiologist at Stanford, and he's talking about the importance of sleep.
144
00:21:38.564 --> 00:21:45.284
So I've really, like, I could go into my sleep for 20 minutes on what I do, you know, with nose plugs and things to help me sleep better. So sleep is big.
145
00:21:45.313 --> 00:21:56.384
I'm on a schedule for my sleep very obsessively without using comp- [laughs] no, pun, pun intended maybe. Um, and then I've also gotten into a few other physical workout things.
146
00:21:56.424 --> 00:22:09.324
You know, like there's a lot of research Huberman says about like taking cold ice baths or showers within your physical limitations, um, even something like a home sauna, things like that. Mm. So I've really...
147
00:22:09.384 --> 00:22:23.774
And then I have a reminder every day on my phone, um, that reminds me I have OCD or, or reminds me about doing an exposure. So I also am trying not to run away from, you know, the, the, the e- the OCD, right?
148
00:22:23.824 --> 00:22:33.744
I think sometimes what gets people with OCD is, one, we forget about the nutrition, the working out, the staying active. That is super important. I, I, 100% think that's gonna be a new protocol in our...
149
00:22:34.104 --> 00:22:42.584
Like, I think our therapy's gonna be, or your therapy- Mm... will be like ERP, respon- response prevention exposures, triggers, boom, boom, boom. What you're eating, what you're working out.
150
00:22:42.864 --> 00:22:46.184
Maybe you do that already as yourself, but I think that'll be in the literature.
151
00:22:46.264 --> 00:22:56.204
Um, but then I also think what gets me too is you have a few bad days or a few great days and you forget you have OCD, and all of a sudden you remember, right? Mm. I remind myself every day I have OCD.
152
00:22:56.304 --> 00:23:02.564
I, I post, I try to post every day to remind myself I have OCD, so I'm not running away from my thoughts or avoiding things.
153
00:23:02.584 --> 00:23:12.004
So every day at about, I think I just got an alert about 10 and 2:00, I get an alert that either has a topic or it says exposure, or it says, "You have OCD."
154
00:23:12.624 --> 00:23:21.844
Um, you know, here at work, actually, I have little reminders about my OCD on top of my computer, and I'm really trying to just immerse that to where it's, it's part of me.
155
00:23:21.884 --> 00:23:29.964
And then what I've noticed is it's, it gets easier to deal with. But I still have bad days. I mean, I, I do, and I'll, I'll, I post that on social media too to make people feel good.
156
00:23:30.384 --> 00:23:36.804
Um, but I think there's that holistic approach, and also, I should say, taking it to the end, where you don't just stop therapy when you feel good.
157
00:23:37.164 --> 00:23:49.864
I'm still going, um, just to make sure I'm good, and I'm still doing exposures every day in some capacity, even if it's a simple reminder, because I think that we often, with OCD, we want things to be over with right away.
158
00:23:50.484 --> 00:24:00.624
Mm-hmm. We, 'cause we're scared, we're nervous. There's that doom. I still want it to go away right away if I'm being honest. Yeah. Um, but, but I think now I can see big picture, you know?
159
00:24:00.744 --> 00:24:07.744
So again, yeah, I mean, physical nutrition. Um, also, if you're religious, for me, I'm very, um, I, I made sure to connect with my pastor.
160
00:24:07.804 --> 00:24:15.544
We're, we're writing a book on mental health as well because we think there's a, a, a need in that field. Um, so, you know, really a holistic approach.
161
00:24:15.784 --> 00:24:22.684
I, I think for everybody listening, especially that has OCDERP is the best way to do it, but that is the foundation of the building.
162
00:24:22.744 --> 00:24:30.404
You still need to put up the walls and look at other things, and all of those, in my opinion, is, is what I mentioned before. Yeah, I love that. That's a great overview.
163
00:24:30.444 --> 00:24:39.944
And, um, I also do love that podcast, the Huberman Lab. Um- Amazing... it's a great podcast. Yeah, he's wonderful. Um, but I think, yeah, you're hitting on a lot of different points, and it's exactly right.
164
00:24:39.984 --> 00:24:47.874
I mean, as someone who's, you know, both a specialist in this treatment and I have OCD myself, like I could say- Mm. Yeah... like, yeah, I still have really rough days, and there's still- Yeah...
165
00:24:47.904 --> 00:24:50.144
moments where you get triggered and just ugh, right? Yeah.
166
00:24:50.244 --> 00:25:04.424
But it's just when you know these tools, and like you said, when you really embrace and immerse yourself into all of this and, and make these lifestyle changes, absolutely it, it has that long-term benefit, so you can really short-circuit that cycle and don't let yourself spin out for hours and days on end.
167
00:25:04.684 --> 00:25:14.724
Yeah. For sure. Um, and, um, yeah, we're talking a lot about ERP, but I'm gonna just put a plug in. You know, there's also acceptance commitment therapy. There's also inference-based CBT specifically for OCD.
168
00:25:14.944 --> 00:25:20.304
So at this point, um, I f- you know, there's, there's more options. Um, and, and I think you're exactly right.
169
00:25:20.344 --> 00:25:33.044
There's definitely more and more of discussions around nutrition, overall physical health and wellbeing, the importance of movement, daily movement- Yeah... um, the importance of getting sleep, um, getting quality sleep.
170
00:25:33.304 --> 00:25:44.284
Um, like you said, nutrition, meaning that, you know, nutrient-rich, nutrient-dense food, not just, you know, very sugary or processed because that does actually impact our bodies and, and such. For sure. So, um, yeah.
171
00:25:44.754 --> 00:25:51.344
Thank you so much, Jonathan, for your time. Um, and if people wanna find you, how can they find you? The best way probably I would say is social media.
172
00:25:51.444 --> 00:26:01.064
My handles are OCD Strong, so ocd_strong for, um, Instagram and TikTok. Um, anybody can email me from those platforms as well. Again, I'm not a therapist.
173
00:26:01.124 --> 00:26:06.164
I don't give advice on that, but I, I put myself out there pretty much two or three times a day on what I'm going through.
174
00:26:06.724 --> 00:26:17.104
Um, so yeah, look, look up there and, um, then there's a link to my website, mentalhealthstruggles.com, um, that I have a few other kinda cool things on there. But the social media is probably the best. Beautiful.
175
00:26:17.244 --> 00:26:23.024
Thank you so much for your time. Thank you so much. Yeah, thank you. [outro music] Thank you for listening to OCD Whisperer Podcast.
176
00:26:23.584 --> 00:26:33.404
If you have any questions you want me to answer in future podcasts or any other comments, you can go to coreresults.com/contact/.
177
00:26:34.404 --> 00:26:41.804
That's Core Results, K-O-R-R-E-S-U-L-T-S.com/contact.
1
00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:17.420
[gentle music] Welcome to OCD Whisperer Podcast. This is your host, Christina Arlova. Here, we will talk about all things OCD. For more information and to contact me with questions, you can go to www.korresults.com.
2
00:00:17.900 --> 00:00:33.600
That's K-O-R results.com. Welcome to OCD Whisperer Show. Today, I have Jonathan Schultz with me, and Jonathan has a doctorate degree in organizational leadership and a master's degree in educational counseling.
3
00:00:34.180 --> 00:00:43.320
He's actually an academic counselor at Bakersfield College, and his job is to make sure that students have what they need to meet their personal and academic goals.
4
00:00:43.460 --> 00:00:55.520
So Jonathan is somebody who was formerly diagnosed with anxiety, depression, ADHD around 18 years old, and in around, at around 20,000, 2014, he got diagnosed with OCD.
5
00:00:56.340 --> 00:01:07.590
Um, Jonathan has had a couple of, uh, mental breakdowns, uh, around his OCD experience, and finally received ERP treatment, um, at age of 32.
6
00:01:07.900 --> 00:01:16.580
And, you know, today, one of the things we will talk about is kind of that journey that Jonathan went through of getting diagnosed and, you know, getting to the right treatment.
7
00:01:17.200 --> 00:01:27.900
Um, Jonathan, um, also he and his wife have written a book, which is awesome, and it's gonna be published next year, and he's very active on Instagram and TikTok.
8
00:01:28.540 --> 00:01:39.800
Um, and I'll make sure to include those handles in the show notes so that- Okay... you guys can follow. Um, and he has been married since 2012 and has three awesome children, seven, five, and three.
9
00:01:39.940 --> 00:01:47.420
So welcome to the show, Jonathan. Thank you, Christina, for having me. I'm really excited about this. Yeah. I'm, I'm really glad I reached out to you.
10
00:01:47.600 --> 00:01:54.790
Um, I've been seeing your posts, and it kind of caught my attention and, you know, I, I love to have people on the show who have lived experience. Yeah.
11
00:01:54.920 --> 00:02:02.460
Um, you know, just talking a little bit more and continuing to spread the word and kind of relate to others. Absolutely. Um- Absolutely. Yeah.
12
00:02:02.480 --> 00:02:11.109
So I think one of the things that we briefly kinda talked about, and I would love to have you share with us, is kinda your journey. Like, what was that beginning of that process?
13
00:02:11.340 --> 00:02:20.760
Because I think a lot of people probably will relate to, you know, getting wrong messages or not even being sure if it's OCD. Yeah. So maybe share with us kind of what, what that was like for you.
14
00:02:21.220 --> 00:02:31.180
Yeah, for sure, and that's actually one of the reasons why I like to be so active on social media, is I, I think my story is, it's somewhat unique, but the more I get into it, it's, it's a little more common than I think people realize.
15
00:02:31.280 --> 00:02:44.300
Um, so the, the formal diagnosis came for the OCD diagnosis, um, about th- uh, 13 years ago when I was around 21. Um, I had a really... I was in college. I was about ready to graduate with my bachelor's degree.
16
00:02:44.860 --> 00:02:55.340
I had previously been diagnosed with, um, anxiety and ADHD, interestingly enough, 'cause I played sports in college and, um, I was missing balls in the outfield 'cause I couldn't see them.
17
00:02:55.440 --> 00:03:04.160
So we went through all kinds of tests to see if I had vision problems or a tumor, and it turned out I was just getting anxious and my focus was changing. So that was the initial anxiety.
18
00:03:04.700 --> 00:03:16.240
After a breakdown, um, I, I was diagnosed with OCD, but I went to a therapist or a psychologist that did not know how to treat it. Um, never spoke about ERP, um, never did.
19
00:03:16.380 --> 00:03:25.960
He didn't even know, never mentioned what exposures were or anything. So I did kind of the traditional CBT therapy for a while. I don't know, it helped a little bit.
20
00:03:26.040 --> 00:03:36.680
I was given some medication, which was more helpful 'cause I wasn't getting the right therapy. But then the big kind of... And, and if I really trace it back, I mean, I had my first OCD cycle at the age of seven.
21
00:03:37.040 --> 00:03:46.680
So I, I can remember my first spin when I was seven, so really, I've had it my whole life. But this is, you know, the diagnosed piece that's a little more interesting. I had a, I was 32 years old.
22
00:03:46.880 --> 00:03:59.800
Um, so I went 10, 12 years without therapy 'cause, I mean, it, I wasn't getting what I needed. Um, I was, uh, I was ending my doctoral program, and I really started hitting that classical OCD cycle.
23
00:03:59.920 --> 00:04:09.390
Didn't really know how to help myself by any means. Um, on the way home from a vacation, I just had a horrible... Finally, everything came to a head.
24
00:04:09.480 --> 00:04:20.720
I finally admitted to my wife what was going on, all the different thoughts. Um, definitely suicidal at that point. And the, the, so, you know, after we got home from the vacation, we made some phone calls.
25
00:04:20.820 --> 00:04:31.380
I went back to the initial therapist that diagnosed me 13 years ago, and I actually had two books with me. I had Brain Lock by Jeffrey Schwartz- Mm... and, um, uh, one other one. I can't remember.
26
00:04:31.480 --> 00:04:39.520
And I walked in and I said, um, you know, "I'm, I'm back [laughs]," and I said, "How, nice seeing you again," you know, and he kinda laughed. And he
27
00:04:40.560 --> 00:04:47.600
said, you know, I said, "I have, my OCD's flaring up," and he showed me a video. And I was like, "I, I know I've seen this video before."
28
00:04:48.000 --> 00:04:58.260
Well, he showed me the same video that he showed me 13 years ago when he diagnosed me, and I was like... And, and, and it was a VHS video. I mean, we're in 2022. Like, VHS video, you know?
29
00:04:58.700 --> 00:05:09.280
[laughs] And the video said, this is true, "We now know Paxil can treat OCD." And I was like, "Now know?" Like, it was back in, like, the '80s. And so I said, "Well, what can I do? Here's a book.
30
00:05:09.460 --> 00:05:19.930
Like, I wanna do something. I, you know, what can I do?" And he said, "You can read all the books you want, but all we can do is really give you more medication to help OCD." Mm. I was like, "Frick," like, "Really?
31
00:05:19.980 --> 00:05:27.000
Are you sure? 'Cause this book..." And he said, "No," like, "That's, that's all we can do, is just prescribe more meds." So I left very defeated.
32
00:05:27.240 --> 00:05:38.540
Um, the next day I had a appointment with a psychiatrist to get medication and, or more medication, and he's taking notes and he said, you know, "Are you going to ERP?" I'm like, "What's ERP?
33
00:05:38.620 --> 00:05:46.310
Like, that's in a book, but, like, I was told that doesn't work, you know?" And he said, "No," like, "If you have OCD, like, you need to go get ERP." Like, "Are you serious?
34
00:05:46.340 --> 00:05:50.820
I was just told yesterday that you need more medication." He said, "No," like, "Go to ERP." I said, "Well, where do I go for this?"
35
00:05:51.260 --> 00:05:57.760
And I live in a small little farm town in, in California, so, um, he said, "I don't know." Like, "We don't have anybody close by that can do this.
36
00:05:58.400 --> 00:06:05.390
But I just had a client who went to a place in LA called OCD LA," and I hope I can say that. If not, you can bleep- Of course. Oh, yeah... Yeah, you can, you can bleep that out.
37
00:06:05.390 --> 00:06:15.364
This podcast, we share all sorts of resources. Yeah. Yeah. They're awesome. I mean, they're, they're, they're awesome. So yeah, I'm, and I'm still going there.Um, and so I, I luckily, the psychiatrist was the opposite.
38
00:06:15.444 --> 00:06:21.414
He was like, "We could do more meds, but you need the behavioral component. Like, that's what you have to do." I'm like, "Oh my gosh," like, "This is great."
39
00:06:21.454 --> 00:06:30.244
So as I hung up with him, 'cause it was virtual, you know, COVID season, I called OCDLA. Um, ironically, they called me back about 20 minutes later.
40
00:06:30.264 --> 00:06:35.764
It was definitely a godsend, and I got hooked up with my, my current therapist, Chris, and we started the, the ERP journey.
41
00:06:36.344 --> 00:06:45.124
And, um, you know, if, if I had not gotten that second opinion from the psychiatrist, I don't know where I'd be right now. I wouldn't be working. Um, might not even be alive. I really don't know.
42
00:06:45.184 --> 00:06:55.144
But I absolutely would not be working, 'cause I had to take some time off work for a little while, um, to take care of this. So, um, it was, it was interesting and, and, uh, it was scary, it was frustrating.
43
00:06:55.244 --> 00:07:04.524
And then as things calmed down, um, I asked my therapist how I could get involved in the community. I don't really wanna go back and go to more school, but, um...
44
00:07:04.564 --> 00:07:12.264
And he mentioned advocacy, and I said, "I like to talk, so let's post my story on Instagram [laughs] and TikTok," and here we are. So. Oh, that's awesome. [laughs] Yeah. So that's me.
45
00:07:12.344 --> 00:07:17.914
I was curious how you got started and on- Uh-huh... the social media. So that, that's great. I mean, you said so many things- [laughs]...
46
00:07:17.944 --> 00:07:27.464
in terms of, like, I think people on average learn and know that it, it really does take, you know, literature says anywhere from, you know, 7 to 14 years to really get a proper diagnosis.
47
00:07:27.524 --> 00:07:36.654
Because I think exactly right, there's so many things that are happening internally that we kinda still don't fully, um, know or are aware of. Yeah.
48
00:07:36.654 --> 00:07:45.634
And so we, we kind of don't connect those dots, like, "Oh, this might be OCD." Um, I mean, I literally have had the same experience where, you know, for the longest time didn't know it. Yeah, yeah.
49
00:07:45.644 --> 00:07:56.354
Um, and, and I think the other piece that you're mentioning that, yeah, like once you do get it, not, unfortunately every professional is kinda trained or up to date. Right.
50
00:07:56.374 --> 00:08:07.404
And so sometimes you may actually get wrong information, right? Or somebody might say, "Yeah, go get CBT," but CBT, just basic traditional CBT- Can be hurtful...
51
00:08:07.714 --> 00:08:17.404
th- there's parts of that that are actually not right for OCD, um- Absolutely, yeah... right? Like, I think people hear about things like, you know, looking evidence for or against a thought, for example.
52
00:08:17.424 --> 00:08:22.753
Yeah, or- Like, that's only gonna perpetuate your mental analysis, right? Exactly. Yeah. Or, like, the rubber band, you know, to stop thoughts.
53
00:08:22.804 --> 00:08:32.724
Like, wait a minute, these are all things that literally do not work for OCD brain. They might work and, and they do for other anxiety disorders [laughs] but not OCD. Yeah. No, they hurt. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, they do.
54
00:08:32.804 --> 00:08:44.424
They actually perpetuate more compulsions. [laughs] Mm-hmm, for sure. Um, so since you're somebody who's had ERP training, for anybody listening who doesn't know what that is, that's exposure and response prevention.
55
00:08:44.494 --> 00:08:56.584
That's right. It is a behavioral, um, aspect of cognitive behavioral therapy. Um, can you tell us a little bit of kind of what about it has helped you and, you know, why do you think that it is important? Yeah.
56
00:08:56.644 --> 00:09:04.154
So, um, for, for me, and I, I'm assuming the audience, I know I've listened to a lot of your stuff, so there's a, there's probably a decent understanding.
57
00:09:04.184 --> 00:09:11.164
But ERP is, you know, the foundational OS- I mean, that is what you need to do when you have OCD, and it's, you know, exposure and response prevention.
58
00:09:11.224 --> 00:09:17.044
You expose yourself to the stimulus that, that scares you, but you do response prevention or you prevent yourself from doing the rituals.
59
00:09:17.724 --> 00:09:27.664
So for me, the first thing that was really eye-opening going through, and my therapist was phenomenal on how he laid it out, and I'll give him a shout-out. Chris Concata from, um, OCDLA.
60
00:09:27.724 --> 00:09:35.124
I know he can't confirm or deny that he knows me, but, um, uh, uh- [laughs]... he's, he's literally saved my life. Um, and I said that in the book. But, um,
61
00:09:36.064 --> 00:09:44.464
w- what I learned at the beginning was there was a lot of things that myself and my wife thought we were doing to help that was really reinforcing the irrational thought, right?
62
00:09:44.584 --> 00:09:54.604
So going to my wife for reassurance, um, compulsively praying over and over, researching things online. Everything that I thought was information-seeking. Even positive self-talk, right?
63
00:09:54.644 --> 00:09:58.564
You hear all the time, like, "Give yourself positive self-talk," and now I'm like, I'm doing the opposite.
64
00:09:58.624 --> 00:10:07.624
I'm giving myself negative self-talk, or, or no self-talk [laughs] um, because I found out very quickly that those were not only not helpful, they were detrimental.
65
00:10:07.724 --> 00:10:16.904
Because they were reinforcing whatever my irrational thought, my image, my feeling was. So initially going through the process, it was very much learning.
66
00:10:16.984 --> 00:10:24.924
Like, oh man, like, you mean I shouldn't go to my wife and ask her every day if she loves me in a compulsive way? I shouldn't ask my kids if they think I'm a good father?
67
00:10:25.484 --> 00:10:32.223
Um, so it was really that first information-getting, like it was very eye-opening. And then understanding why.
68
00:10:32.264 --> 00:10:39.363
Like, it, it didn't make sense at first, and my wife didn't understand it either, but it was like, oh, you know, this is a biological, almost evolutionary thing.
69
00:10:39.864 --> 00:10:46.424
We see a lion, we get scared, we run, and then if the lion comes back, we get scared again. Well, we fear a thought.
70
00:10:46.544 --> 00:10:55.524
The, the running is s- is what's reinforcing the lion is scary, well, the re- the reassurance is reinforcing the thought scary. So whenever that thought comes back, of course anxiety's gonna happen.
71
00:10:55.604 --> 00:11:01.924
It's, it's biological. It's literally what was supposed to happen in a normal situation. Our brain is just taking it down a path.
72
00:11:01.984 --> 00:11:13.564
So, um, understanding how to not do the, or, or, or limit the, the compulsions was really interesting and, and very educational. But then the exposure piece was really cool.
73
00:11:13.744 --> 00:11:24.284
It sucks, but it's really cool because some of the books I've read didn't emphasize i- an exposure, just to give a, you know- Yeah... a more example, and I'm assuming you've covered it, so I don't wanna d- kill it.
74
00:11:24.404 --> 00:11:37.484
But, um, you go towards the thing that you initially were avoiding, the thought, the stimulus, the situation. Instead of avoiding that Facebook post, you go back and reread it and you don't Google the, the answer to it.
75
00:11:37.944 --> 00:11:47.844
So, you know, I had never really seen what the exposure piece was. And I remember my therapist saying, "This is gonna be one of the most helpful parts of that as long as you can do response prevention.
76
00:11:48.364 --> 00:11:58.464
Um, you know, it's gonna be hard at times, but it's gonna be necessary." And I've really seen the benefit in that, both for my OCD but also for my personal life as well, too. Wow.
77
00:11:58.584 --> 00:12:03.544
That's, yeah, a lot of stuff you covered there, too. Um, and yeah, I mean, I, I think that's exactly right.
78
00:12:03.604 --> 00:12:10.484
You're hitting on an important element where, you know, a lot of people kinda get nervous when they hear the words exposure response prevention. Mm-hmm.
79
00:12:10.494 --> 00:12:19.822
And, and they kind of I think sometimes have this w-Kind of myth or biased thinking of like, "Oh my gosh, I'm gonna like dive off the deep end, like right into my scariest stuff." Yeah, no.
80
00:12:19.822 --> 00:12:26.212
And what, you want, you want me to do what? And entertain what? Um, can you speak a little bit about that, like what that process was? Yeah.
81
00:12:26.352 --> 00:12:33.922
So the way my therapist approached it, and if you read some of the books, there's a few different kind of approaches out there for the exposures.
82
00:12:33.932 --> 00:12:38.732
And I like what my therapist did, which is kind of the traditional hierarchy ladder or, or menu.
83
00:12:39.202 --> 00:12:51.572
And what that is is you take your top 10 usually issues that bother you, in the s- in the order of, you know, 10 is a panic attack, you wanna, you can't deal with this thought. One is, is somewhat manageable.
84
00:12:51.592 --> 00:13:01.352
And you basically are working your way up. Um, that's what I did. And, um, what I noticed, and I remember him saying, "You're never really gonna go above a six or a seven."
85
00:13:01.392 --> 00:13:08.482
That was kind of the, the approach, and then it, it changed as we went. We actually just... 'Cause I kind of looked at it a little differently, um, towards the end.
86
00:13:09.072 --> 00:13:18.952
Um, but at the beginning it was nice because, one, you don't approach something so scary that you, the only way to, to help yourself deal with it is compulsions.
87
00:13:18.992 --> 00:13:23.352
I mean, it's kind of like throwing someone in the deep end that can't swim. You gotta learn how to swim first.
88
00:13:23.412 --> 00:13:30.512
So what we did at the, especially at the beginning, is we would take a, a theme that was scary but not too scary and approach that.
89
00:13:30.572 --> 00:13:40.632
You know, if I was nervous about holding my kids, which was tough for a while, um, you know, I would maybe get closer to them and put 'em on my lap, and then I'd pick 'em up and walk with them and, you know.
90
00:13:40.992 --> 00:13:50.912
And kind of work your way up towards the stimulus. And what that did for me, and what it does for others usually, is the 10s become eights, the eights become sevens, the sevens become sixes.
91
00:13:51.252 --> 00:14:01.472
So you never really go to that six or that seven because they come down to you. You don't necessarily go up to them. They, they come down to you because you are learning the biology part of it.
92
00:14:01.552 --> 00:14:10.432
You're learning kind of the irrationality of the thought. Not in a reinforcing way, but just, you know, in a new thought pattern. Um, and, and we went up the hierarchy that way.
93
00:14:10.472 --> 00:14:15.542
And I still, I still do exposures almost every day, um- Awesome, yeah. And, and, uh- Some way or another...
94
00:14:15.542 --> 00:14:24.191
yeah, and I think part of what you're hitting on now too is, is I think that once you do have ha- once you've had that training with ERP or ERP and ACT aspects- Mm-hmm...
95
00:14:24.292 --> 00:14:33.662
um, you know, but once you kind of put that together, it's kinda like saying, "Hey, as a lifestyle now, I'm going to be really kinda taking this on." So, right? Like, how you make- Yeah...
96
00:14:33.662 --> 00:14:43.662
decisions now, I'm assuming probably is gonna be a little different because now you're like, "Oh yeah, this is a thing I feel the, uh, you know, natural urge to avoid, but actually I know I'm gonna, I'm gonna go for it because-" Yeah...
97
00:14:43.662 --> 00:14:54.232
"it's good for me." So, so you start to make decisions differently. And so it becomes like an organic, natural- Yeah... kind of change. I, I've even embedded that in my parenting. Um, my son's a lot like me.
98
00:14:54.312 --> 00:15:03.212
He's the seven-year-old. And, um, he's got my anxiety, he's got my issues, and so we put him into jujitsu to... 'Cause that's a scary thing for people with anxiety, you gotta be wrestling.
99
00:15:03.632 --> 00:15:09.292
And I'll tell him, like, "Look, sometimes, son, life's gonna be hard. You're just gonna have to go through it. You know, you can't go around it, you gotta go through it."
100
00:15:09.372 --> 00:15:15.772
So yeah, it's, it's really infiltrating even my parenting, so. [laughs] That's actually really beautiful and cool to hear. Yeah.
101
00:15:15.782 --> 00:15:24.252
[laughs] Now, um, I wanna circle back to something you mentioned about you guys wrote a book, and in the book. So we haven't even touched on that. Can you tell us a little bit about what the book is about?
102
00:15:24.332 --> 00:15:32.952
Uh, like what, when? Do you have any idea for next year when people could look for it? So we actually have two. One is published right now, one is coming out, um, next year.
103
00:15:33.152 --> 00:15:43.872
What happened was the day, June 6, when I had my really bad breakdown and I wanted to kill myself and it was just terrible, my wife looked at me and she said, um, "How can I help you?" I said, "I don't know.
104
00:15:43.942 --> 00:15:56.162
Like, I can't even help myself." So, um, you know, we had the, the appointment with the psychologist the next day and still didn't get any help. And we were like, "F- you know, we wanna help people once I'm, I'm level."
105
00:15:56.472 --> 00:16:07.272
And, um, 'cause this was just, you know, a very debilitating disorder. So, um, I, uh... So after that happened and then we finally got the help, we were like, "You know, we need to do this to..."
106
00:16:07.372 --> 00:16:15.572
So the book was initially gonna be called How Can I Help You? But then now it's, the one published, is called Obsessed: A Couple's Story, um, Dealing With Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder.
107
00:16:16.112 --> 00:16:20.832
And, and what I think, and there's a lot of good books out there, I mean, so it's not like ours is better than, than others.
108
00:16:21.212 --> 00:16:32.592
But I think what sets it apart and what, what we do is we, we don't hit our story, we don't hit ERP, we don't hit s- we, we try to hit everything as, as little as we can, but with enough to make a difference.
109
00:16:32.632 --> 00:16:40.462
So we tell our story to help people see what it's like having with it, l- having it and, and living with it, uh, you know, to kind of see both sides.
110
00:16:40.912 --> 00:16:48.132
And then I try to explain what I did, 'cause I think there's a difference sometimes when you read books from people that have been through it and people that just research it, you know?
111
00:16:48.332 --> 00:16:58.212
Um, one reason I love Jonathan Hirschfield books over others is he's, you know, he has it and he's prac- he's a practitioner, right? So his are a little more relatable. So ours is only relatable.
112
00:16:58.292 --> 00:17:10.432
So we talk about what happened, um, what, what I had to do, the ERP method that we followed. I have a little bit of a different approach to exposures, so I kind of, I have a little, a little piece on there that I do.
113
00:17:10.812 --> 00:17:19.592
And then we, as we were going through and all these questions we had, we literally wrote down questions that I asked my therapist, and then we just took the answers and we put 'em in a book.
114
00:17:19.652 --> 00:17:27.952
So it's basically like this is what we went through. How do you deal with a breakdown? How do you deal with the thoughts that I have bipolar? How do you deal with, you know, I think I'm schizophrenic?
115
00:17:28.352 --> 00:17:34.082
Um, and we just answer those questions in the book as well. So it's about 111 pages, um, is the one that's published.
116
00:17:34.202 --> 00:17:43.962
And then the second one that we're working on now, ironically the best feedback we got was about my wife's portion of the book, which is the shortest portion of the book, so it kind of ticked me off a little bit [laughs].
117
00:17:44.222 --> 00:17:51.172
But, uh, but she's phenomenal. So that, but, but people were very interested in like that side, like how do you support someone that has OCD?
118
00:17:51.192 --> 00:18:01.132
And then as we were looking through, there's only one or maybe two books out there, um, that I've seen. There's one called Living With OC- or Loving Someone With OCD. Mm. There's not a lot there.
119
00:18:01.172 --> 00:18:11.152
So this is totally from her perspective, um, how to self-care for her, what she should do, what to not do, and it's, it's really for anybody that is supporting or loving someone with OCD.
120
00:18:11.752 --> 00:18:22.173
Um, I, I help her, I'm helping her write it just-As 'cause I like to write, but this is her book. Um, I don't know the title of that. That'll be out, I think, um, probably next June, I think.
121
00:18:22.184 --> 00:18:29.604
We're almost done with it, but we're, we're cleaning up a few things. Um, and I think that's gonna be the best one that we have. But we really just wanna help. I'm not trying to make money.
122
00:18:29.704 --> 00:18:39.694
Um, you know, we, we explain things in a way that, uh, I think are easy to read. My dissertation, my chair of- often said, uh, I write like I talk [laughs] which isn't good for a dissertation.
123
00:18:40.024 --> 00:18:48.924
But it's good for, I think, for, for, for- Yeah... books that you're trying to help others with, right? So, um, I think our writing style is easy to read, but then, um, we don't have a lot of fluff.
124
00:18:48.984 --> 00:18:52.744
We cut out all the fluff as well. That's awesome. And I mean, I, I, I agree.
125
00:18:52.944 --> 00:19:03.124
I think in general, you know, people who are dealing with this and, and really, you know, take a brave step towards, you know, putting themselves out there, I mean, I think that's, that's the goal, right?
126
00:19:03.184 --> 00:19:07.644
It, it's- Yeah... I'm literally trying to help because I've gone through something like this, right?
127
00:19:07.694 --> 00:19:14.704
And I'm, and I'm trying to put something out there that other people can relate to, that it's easy, it's understandable, right? That they can- Yeah... actually see.
128
00:19:14.804 --> 00:19:23.744
Like, like you said, in the very beginning, and I kinda smile 'cause I'm like, "Right." Oftentimes when you're starting, you think, "Oh my gosh, this is so unique. Somehow this is-" Yeah... "I'm so different.
129
00:19:23.784 --> 00:19:32.464
This is so special." I'm the only one. Right? Yeah. And then, yeah, you get into it and you're like, "Oh my God," like, "This is so common." [laughs] yeah. This is like, "Wait a minute." Yeah. "So many people have this."
130
00:19:32.534 --> 00:19:40.434
[laughs] Yeah, yeah. Um- Yeah, for sure... and then you realize, "Wow, okay, I am not unique in that way." No. [laughs] Like, this is, this is written about in so many places. Yeah.
131
00:19:40.444 --> 00:19:47.244
It's just, you know, when you don't know about it, you feel isolated, and then you find out- Yeah... and you're like, "Whoa." Yeah. Um, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I think that's awesome.
132
00:19:47.824 --> 00:19:50.364
Um, one last question before, uh, before we end.
133
00:19:50.484 --> 00:20:01.194
So now that you've had this, you know, therapy that it sounds like, you know, you're still continuing that, which is great, um, can you tell us a little bit kinda generally, like
134
00:20:02.544 --> 00:20:07.864
what's your kinda overall well- wellbeing kinda plan or, or what do you do, right? Because I think oftentimes people...
135
00:20:07.904 --> 00:20:16.744
and a lot of discussions are around, you know, medication and behavioral therapy or just behavioral therapy or a combo of two. But I think sometimes people forget, like, you know, you're a whole person.
136
00:20:16.784 --> 00:20:28.204
Like there's- Yeah... there's more to us than just those two aspects. So what else can you do or do you do for overall wellbeing and health? So I think personally, we will see in the...
137
00:20:28.234 --> 00:20:38.004
and I think you'll see more than me be- because you're a practitioner obviously, that soon part of therapy, um, protocols are gonna have more physical and nutritional guidelines.
138
00:20:38.184 --> 00:20:43.944
I really do think we're seeing that in other medical fields. You know, people come in with blood pressure now, and it's not just medication, it's also.
139
00:20:44.424 --> 00:20:57.364
So I've, I've really noticed with me, I try to eat clean, meaning anything that, that our ancestors could have eaten, I try to eat that. Um, I don't drink alcohol anymore. I used to drink way too much alcohol.
140
00:20:57.844 --> 00:21:09.364
I, I am on medication for, for, um, my OCD. I, um, I've been on that since I was 19. But, um, w- which I think obviously there's a part for that. But for me, when you're looking at that, it's the eating is important.
141
00:21:09.564 --> 00:21:24.104
I definitely try to work out physically something, um, just, you know, weights or run at least five to six times a week. Um, and, and if I don't do those things, I definitely see my, my anxiety go up.
142
00:21:24.224 --> 00:21:33.684
Um, I also am very focused on sleep. I've really gotten into, there's a great podcast, um, a guy named Andrew Huberman. I'm not trying to pitch another podcast, but, um, Andrew Huberman's great.
143
00:21:33.724 --> 00:21:38.504
He's a neuroscientist, neurobiologist at Stanford, and he's talking about the importance of sleep.
144
00:21:38.564 --> 00:21:45.284
So I've really, like, I could go into my sleep for 20 minutes on what I do, you know, with nose plugs and things to help me sleep better. So sleep is big.
145
00:21:45.313 --> 00:21:56.384
I'm on a schedule for my sleep very obsessively without using comp- [laughs] no, pun, pun intended maybe. Um, and then I've also gotten into a few other physical workout things.
146
00:21:56.424 --> 00:22:09.324
You know, like there's a lot of research Huberman says about like taking cold ice baths or showers within your physical limitations, um, even something like a home sauna, things like that. Mm. So I've really...
147
00:22:09.384 --> 00:22:23.774
And then I have a reminder every day on my phone, um, that reminds me I have OCD or, or reminds me about doing an exposure. So I also am trying not to run away from, you know, the, the, the e- the OCD, right?
148
00:22:23.824 --> 00:22:33.744
I think sometimes what gets people with OCD is, one, we forget about the nutrition, the working out, the staying active. That is super important. I, I, 100% think that's gonna be a new protocol in our...
149
00:22:34.104 --> 00:22:42.584
Like, I think our therapy's gonna be, or your therapy- Mm... will be like ERP, respon- response prevention exposures, triggers, boom, boom, boom. What you're eating, what you're working out.
150
00:22:42.864 --> 00:22:46.184
Maybe you do that already as yourself, but I think that'll be in the literature.
151
00:22:46.264 --> 00:22:56.204
Um, but then I also think what gets me too is you have a few bad days or a few great days and you forget you have OCD, and all of a sudden you remember, right? Mm. I remind myself every day I have OCD.
152
00:22:56.304 --> 00:23:02.564
I, I post, I try to post every day to remind myself I have OCD, so I'm not running away from my thoughts or avoiding things.
153
00:23:02.584 --> 00:23:12.004
So every day at about, I think I just got an alert about 10 and 2:00, I get an alert that either has a topic or it says exposure, or it says, "You have OCD."
154
00:23:12.624 --> 00:23:21.844
Um, you know, here at work, actually, I have little reminders about my OCD on top of my computer, and I'm really trying to just immerse that to where it's, it's part of me.
155
00:23:21.884 --> 00:23:29.964
And then what I've noticed is it's, it gets easier to deal with. But I still have bad days. I mean, I, I do, and I'll, I'll, I post that on social media too to make people feel good.
156
00:23:30.384 --> 00:23:36.804
Um, but I think there's that holistic approach, and also, I should say, taking it to the end, where you don't just stop therapy when you feel good.
157
00:23:37.164 --> 00:23:49.864
I'm still going, um, just to make sure I'm good, and I'm still doing exposures every day in some capacity, even if it's a simple reminder, because I think that we often, with OCD, we want things to be over with right away.
158
00:23:50.484 --> 00:24:00.624
Mm-hmm. We, 'cause we're scared, we're nervous. There's that doom. I still want it to go away right away if I'm being honest. Yeah. Um, but, but I think now I can see big picture, you know?
159
00:24:00.744 --> 00:24:07.744
So again, yeah, I mean, physical nutrition. Um, also, if you're religious, for me, I'm very, um, I, I made sure to connect with my pastor.
160
00:24:07.804 --> 00:24:15.544
We're, we're writing a book on mental health as well because we think there's a, a, a need in that field. Um, so, you know, really a holistic approach.
161
00:24:15.784 --> 00:24:22.684
I, I think for everybody listening, especially that has OCDERP is the best way to do it, but that is the foundation of the building.
162
00:24:22.744 --> 00:24:30.404
You still need to put up the walls and look at other things, and all of those, in my opinion, is, is what I mentioned before. Yeah, I love that. That's a great overview.
163
00:24:30.444 --> 00:24:39.944
And, um, I also do love that podcast, the Huberman Lab. Um- Amazing... it's a great podcast. Yeah, he's wonderful. Um, but I think, yeah, you're hitting on a lot of different points, and it's exactly right.
164
00:24:39.984 --> 00:24:47.874
I mean, as someone who's, you know, both a specialist in this treatment and I have OCD myself, like I could say- Mm. Yeah... like, yeah, I still have really rough days, and there's still- Yeah...
165
00:24:47.904 --> 00:24:50.144
moments where you get triggered and just ugh, right? Yeah.
166
00:24:50.244 --> 00:25:04.424
But it's just when you know these tools, and like you said, when you really embrace and immerse yourself into all of this and, and make these lifestyle changes, absolutely it, it has that long-term benefit, so you can really short-circuit that cycle and don't let yourself spin out for hours and days on end.
167
00:25:04.684 --> 00:25:14.724
Yeah. For sure. Um, and, um, yeah, we're talking a lot about ERP, but I'm gonna just put a plug in. You know, there's also acceptance commitment therapy. There's also inference-based CBT specifically for OCD.
168
00:25:14.944 --> 00:25:20.304
So at this point, um, I f- you know, there's, there's more options. Um, and, and I think you're exactly right.
169
00:25:20.344 --> 00:25:33.044
There's definitely more and more of discussions around nutrition, overall physical health and wellbeing, the importance of movement, daily movement- Yeah... um, the importance of getting sleep, um, getting quality sleep.
170
00:25:33.304 --> 00:25:44.284
Um, like you said, nutrition, meaning that, you know, nutrient-rich, nutrient-dense food, not just, you know, very sugary or processed because that does actually impact our bodies and, and such. For sure. So, um, yeah.
171
00:25:44.754 --> 00:25:51.344
Thank you so much, Jonathan, for your time. Um, and if people wanna find you, how can they find you? The best way probably I would say is social media.
172
00:25:51.444 --> 00:26:01.064
My handles are OCD Strong, so ocd_strong for, um, Instagram and TikTok. Um, anybody can email me from those platforms as well. Again, I'm not a therapist.
173
00:26:01.124 --> 00:26:06.164
I don't give advice on that, but I, I put myself out there pretty much two or three times a day on what I'm going through.
174
00:26:06.724 --> 00:26:17.104
Um, so yeah, look, look up there and, um, then there's a link to my website, mentalhealthstruggles.com, um, that I have a few other kinda cool things on there. But the social media is probably the best. Beautiful.
175
00:26:17.244 --> 00:26:23.024
Thank you so much for your time. Thank you so much. Yeah, thank you. [outro music] Thank you for listening to OCD Whisperer Podcast.
176
00:26:23.584 --> 00:26:33.404
If you have any questions you want me to answer in future podcasts or any other comments, you can go to coreresults.com/contact/.
177
00:26:34.404 --> 00:26:41.804
That's Core Results, K-O-R-R-E-S-U-L-T-S.com/contact.
