Indulgence, Not Compulsion - A Discussion on Addiction and Recovery

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On this episode of the Neutral Wisdom Podcast, host Robert Shirley discusses indulgence and compulsion and is joined by a special panel of guests for discussion.
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This is the Neutral Wisdom Podcast, a view of life through a satanic lens.
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With your host, Robert Shirley.
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Greetings and welcome to the Neutral Wisdom Podcast.
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I'm your host, Robert Shirley, and today we're going to be discussing addiction and recovery.
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I'll be joined later by a panel of guests who are willing to discuss their own addictions and journeys to recovery.
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I think there'll be a lot we can take away from this one.
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I think all of us, Satanists especially, indulge in the things which bring us pleasure, and why wouldn't we?
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That's what life is for.
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Making the most of it here and now.
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One of the first things we learn and come to realize as Satanists is that all of the bad things we were taught were sinful in the eyes of some made up sky daddy are actually some of the best and most enjoyable things we can do.
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And that is very freeing.
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We obtain the ability to enjoy ourselves, pretty much guilt free.
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As long as we're not hurting anybody else, we're free to fill our boots, as they say in the military.
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For some it's chemical vices such as drugs and alcohol.
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Some are able to embrace their sexuality without guilt.
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Some of us even start podcasts and write books, although the jury is still out on that one.
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But what happens when our indulgences take control of us?
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When we feel an urge or a compulsion to indulge or to overindulge, we no longer enjoy the pleasure, we need it, we become addicted to it.
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Whatever brought us pleasure in the beginning becomes a physical or psychological need for us to keep going and face the world every day.
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And if we realize that our pleasures are not harmful and we need to stop, withdrawal is painful.
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Not only the process of withdrawal, but that niggling urge to fall off the wagon will almost always be there, no matter what our commitment to change is.
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Ask any reformed addict what the biggest challenge in their life is, and they'll say it's resisting the temptation to start again.
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Satanists understand that we are the ones in control of our own existence.
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We've rejected the notion that there's some supernatural force which guides us and looks out for us.
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We must look after ourselves, we are responsible for ourselves.
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This does not only apply to religion.
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If we allow our indulgences to take us over, we're allowing them to control us.
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We're giving up our control, not to some mythical being, but to some chemical or psychological need.
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I suppose one could argue that this really isn't the same thing, but have you ever spoken to a very ardent Christian?
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Those people are addicted to the promise of a glorious afterlife.
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Which is kind of stupid to me since they're addicted to something they might get, or might not, depending on their behavior.
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Whatever.
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But as we'll see later from the guests on our panel, there's a way back from addiction.
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There's a way out of compulsion.
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It is by no means an easy journey.
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And the scary thing is the journey in is always so much easier than the journey out.
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We'll get to our panel after the break.
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In the meantime, the title for today's essay comes from an old Irish proverb that speaks about the subtlety of addiction, the effect small choices can have on us, and how the point of no return is often invisible.
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I think it sums up indulgence not compulsion perfectly.
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Today's essay is titled The Drink Takes the Man Indulgence, not compulsion.
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A man takes a drink, the drink takes a drink, the drink takes the man.
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It's the first drop that destroys you.
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There's no harm at all in the last.
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Irish proverb.
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Satanism has long maintained the principle of indulgence, not compulsion, as our way of approaching life.
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Anton Levet wrote about this in the Satanic Bible, and it can also be found on the official Church of Satan website.
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Indulgence not compulsion means that it is perfectly fine to indulge in the things in which one finds pleasure responsibly.
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If our need to indulge becomes compulsive, then we've gone too far.
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Think of it as indulgence.
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When you control the thing and find pleasure in it.
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Compulsion.
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When the thing controls you and you move from want to need, it becomes an addiction.
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The Irish proverb is a good demonstration of what happens when one allows indulgence to turn into compulsion.
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You'll slowly lose control over time and not even realize it's happening.
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As a personal example, I was a late bloomer as far as a social life.
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I didn't really start hanging out with a steady group of friends until I was eighteen years old.
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The friends I made were through the military cadet program, and since we were all from different areas of the city and different backgrounds, we all had different tastes and hobbies, but the one thing we did have in common was drinking on weekends.
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We would have what we called TV parties, after the song of the same name by Black Flag.
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We would sit around drinking, talking, and listening to music, usually ska, with television on in the background.
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I had never been a big drinker up to that point, but I wasn't a straight edge or against alcohol, so I participated with the group.
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And we always had a good time at these parties, at least the ones I could remember.
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Then came the day when I was at home with a different friend who wasn't in our weekend group.
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I grabbed the bottle of cola from the refrigerator, and without thinking, went to the bar and poured a shot of rum into my glass.
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Buddy's eyes got very wide.
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Dude, what are you doing?
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I didn't have an answer.
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In fact, I haven't even realized what I had just done.
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It had become so habitual for me to pour a dark and dirty, a dark rum and coke, that I just automatically made one for myself on a Thursday morning.
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My indulgence was becoming a compulsion and I didn't even realize it was happening.
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Alcoholism runs in my family.
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Whether it's hereditary or not is up to science to determine.
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However, I have seen and experienced firsthand what alcohol does to the people you love.
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There was no way I was going to let that happen to me.
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It was then and there that I decided to back off the booze on weekends.
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I had a good group of friends, so there was no peer pressure or anything like that, I was lucky in that regard.
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Sure, if we were going to a club or something, I'd have a few drinks, but nothing like indulging every weekend.
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For what it's worth, I still drink every now and then, but nowhere near as much as I did when I was younger.
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As my doctor can tell you, even calling me a casual drinker would really be pushing it.
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I'll socially enjoy a glass of wine with a meal or a good bourbon with a premium cigar, but there's no more drinking to get wasted in my present or future, especially at my age.
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In short, you have to be conscious of your indulgences and be aware of when and how they can turn into compulsion.
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The Church of Satan is quite often asked about illegal drugs with regards to indulgence and compulsion.
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The Church of Satan has its own policy on illegal drug abuse which can be found on its website.
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Illegal drug abuse is also referenced on the site's QA page.
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Question Doesn't the Church of Satan endorse all kinds of hedonism, including drug use?
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Answer No.
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The Church of Satan's philosophy is Epicurean, not hedonistic.
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For us, a balanced and controlled seeking of pleasures is our goal, indulgence, not compulsion, as would be the case under hedonism.
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For a detailed explanation of our policy about drug use, please read the essay The Church of Satan's Policy on Drug Abuse.
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First of all, the Church of Satan does not condone illegal activity.
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That is, if your actions are illegal in your country of residence, the Church of Satan does not support them.
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Second, the use of drugs could be considered unsatanic.
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According to the aforementioned policy, since survival is the highest law, the Satanist will not ruin or poison his or her body, even if it is legal to do so.
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This is an important distinction.
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Self-destructive suicidal hedonism via whatever means is ultimately unsatanic as it threatens the very thing a Satanist holds most dear his or her own life.
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Simply put, if you choose to use drugs, either legal or illegal, remember that indulgence, not compulsion, should be your guideline.
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Like with anything else, if you lose control of your indulgence, you'll quickly head down the road to addiction, which is the definition of compulsion.
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As to my own point of view, I create my own reality.
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I choose to be the best version of myself.
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I influence the environment and the people around me with my lesser magic, and surround myself with things that make me happy.
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If I don't like something, I change it, either through hard work to get through it or by excising it from my life.
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I don't need drugs or alcohol to cope with my reality.
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The reality I make for myself is pretty good and I don't want to be separated from it.
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Personally, and this is my opinion only and will probably be a trigger for a lot of people, I see drug use as a sign of weakness.
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Yes, I understand that a lot of people use them to relax, but a lot of people use them to escape reality.
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For me, I don't get it.
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If your reality is so bad, change it, because stoned or not, it'll still be there when you're no longer high.
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I live in a town where I smell a lot of marijuana smoke.
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Marijuana's federally legal in my country.
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Even when I'm out for a run at seven AM on a Sunday morning, there are people out on their front stoop smoking a joint.
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Really?
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At seven AM?
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How bad is your life that you need to get away from it before everyone else is awake?
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But again, that is my opinion.
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I totally respect your right and want to smoke anything anytime you wish.
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What I think shouldn't matter to you any more than what you think matters to me.
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Indulgence, not compulsion.
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Let this be a guiding principle in your own life and get the most pleasure out of life that you can.
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And if you find yourself slipping into compulsion, do not hesitate to reach out for help to your medical professional or mental health provider.
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In the meantime, I'll meet you at the bar for a rusty nail and a premium cigar.
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Let us indulge together.
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Now's a good time for a break.
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After the break, we're joined by a panel of special guests to share their own stories and experiences with addiction and recovery.
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Stay tuned.
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You are listening to the Neutral Wisdom Podcast.
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For comments, questions, or suggestions, email us at information at neutralwisdom.ca.
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Unapologetic, the third collection of essays by author and podcaster Robert Shirley, is the most revealing instalment in his ongoing exploration of modern Satanism, specifically the personal philosophy he calls neutral wisdom.
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Unapologetic is a raw, forthright exploration of the author's life through the lens of modern Satanism, presented in two parts.
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Part one builds on his previous works, offering essays that dissect his worldview, personal evolution, and the philosophy that empowers him.
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Part two presents the Neutral Wisdom Manifesto, a distilled declaration of the beliefs and principles that guide him.
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Together, these pieces form a portrait of a man embracing his identity with clarity, sovereignty, and zero apology.
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Unapologetic is more direct, more personal, and more confrontational in its honesty than any of Robert Shirley's previous works.
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Hard copies available April 30th, 2026, through Dark Moon Press and ebooks through Amazon.com.
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I will live my life as a story I authored, not one I inherited.
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And for that I am completely unapologetic.
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And we are back with the Neutral Wisdom Podcast.
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I'm joined today by a very special panel of guests who are willing to talk about their own journeys of addiction and recovery.
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And it's a real honor to have them all here today.
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This can't be an easy thing to talk about, so I so appreciate their willingness to come on this show.
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Say hello to Frankie, Melted Chapsticks Hollywood, a former guest on this show and a glutton for punishment, and a musical collaborator with yours truly.
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Frankie is a legend in his own mind and a bona fide rock star with his band, The Melted Chapsticks.
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Mike North, another former guest.
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Mike is a photographer and host of both the Midnight Signal Podcast and the Skogan Outdoor Podcast.
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And Jimmy Kretz, a brand new guest on the Neutral Wisdom Podcast, and we're all looking forward to breaking him in.
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Jimmy is a married girl dad to two daughters, 22 and 14.
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And as the father of a daughter myself, I can honestly say.
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Oh boy.
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He's a commercial driver during the day and going to school at night to obtain his Cassack, which is a credentialed alcohol and substance abuse counselor and an associate's degree in addiction studies.
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Welcome, panel, to this show.
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I'm really, really pumped to have all you guys here.
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Thanks for having me.
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Thank you.
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Thank you.
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Wow, that's so formal.
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Relax, guys.
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It's gonna get a lot worse before it gets better.
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Hang in there, it gets worse, as we like to say.
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So, how are you guys doing?
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Well, what's going on in your areas of the country there?
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I'm doing all right, you know, same old shit.
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I like we talked about earlier, you know.
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I wish we'd have gotten winter this year, but it's been pretty pretty bad.
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It's been, you know, 80s, 90s.
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My heart weeps for you.
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Yeah, I'm how awful.
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I can't stand it, man.
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Open your freezer and think of us here on the east.
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I keep the AC on like at 58.
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So nice.
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It's it's comfortable inside the house, but Jimmy, I think uh you and I need to plan a trip to Mike's neck of the woods and kick a come up out of them.
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Come on out, 80s and 90s.
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Shit.
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And Boston, what's going on out there?
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A lot of good stuff.
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We just played in the St.
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Patrick's Day Parade.
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And I was only hit as this parade 100,000 people.
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Uh as a sober guy, I get hit with all these nips and just share them with the band.
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So that worked out well for you then.
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Well, it worked out well for them.
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I mean, I I throw shit at you too, but it's good to know that you didn't leave share.
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I asked him to throw avocados because we just want to make a dip.
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The tomatoes stink, but it was a lot of fun.
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And Jimmy, you took time out of your busy schedule to come and talk to us today.
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How's it going there?
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I go to work and then I go straight to school four nights a week, and then I come and I just hit the gym before I go home, and I average about four hours of sleep.
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Youth is wasted on the young.
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Hey, fellas.
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You know, I I used to stay awake for days with uh, you know, the help of other things, so you know, now doing it for a good reason now.
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Well, we're gonna get into that in a second.
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I I don't think this is an easy thing to talk about, so I appreciate all you guys being willing to come on and talk about this.
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There's not much we don't know about Mike and Frank because they've been here before.
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But Jimmy, is there anything else that you can tell us about you that I didn't really cover in my intro?
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Um I'm a believer of recovering out loud because somebody needs to hear it.
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And yes, there's a lot of stigma around it, as we all know.
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We we're all very familiar with stigma.
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Somebody's somebody's gonna wanna hear it.
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And even though if you can't relate with somebody a hundred percent, if they can relate to you, two, three, five percent, then that gives them a glimmer of hope that they can try to not suffer.
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Definitely.
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And you mentioned stigma, so how did you come to this thing of ours as well?
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Always when I was a kid, you know what I mean, just like everyone else with the outcast kind of, you know, we're always on the outside and obviously had uh had the book, and um, like a lot of kids, like back in like the early 90s and stuff, we had it, but like we didn't read it, and then like when I got older, you know, now being 43, you know, 40 in my 30s and my 40s, when I started reading it, like really, I'm like, yo, you know what?
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I should have read just like everything else.
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I should have done this years ago, you know?
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Should have gone to school years ago, should have read this book years ago, should have read that years ago, should have believed this years ago.
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A lot of woulda, coulda, shoulda's in uh everybody's past, I think.
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Oh, yeah.
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Absolutely.
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All right.
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Well, now we kind of know who everybody is, and uh I would like to get on to your stories.
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So before we jump into your stories, and I appreciate you saying, Jimmy, that you like to share this, and all three of you have said that to me offline.
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But are these stories for you guys, are they hard to tell, or like in some cases, are they hard to relive for you?
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To to tell, I mean, in the beginning, yeah.
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I didn't I didn't want to tell people now, like Jimmy says, you know, uh you don't know who's going through something.
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I'll tell anybody.
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I really well let me rephrase that.
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I guess there's certain people I don't talk to it about, but if it's just random people, I'll talk to them.
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You know, I it doesn't bother me.
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I'll happily say because you don't know if it's gonna help them or not.
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You gotta read the room, you gotta know your audience, you know.
00:17:30.559 --> 00:17:32.160
How does something like that come up?
00:17:32.319 --> 00:17:35.839
Do people like ask you guys to or do you volunteer it?
00:17:36.000 --> 00:17:38.799
Like, are you like, are you recovering guys like vegans?
00:17:38.880 --> 00:17:42.319
Like, I'm gonna know that you're recovering whether I ask you or not, kind of thing.
00:17:42.640 --> 00:17:45.599
Now it's worse when you have long hair.
00:17:46.400 --> 00:17:57.599
They all assume that you're wasted and whatever, and that's okay too, because I I'm not, but if people talk about it or whatever, I'm not afraid to share.
00:17:57.839 --> 00:18:02.960
And again, you can pick and choose if someone is completely wasted or whatever.
00:18:03.039 --> 00:18:16.880
I'm not gonna waste my time, but if people have general questions or whatever, I have no problem sharing because I think when you finally cut ties with the alcohol and you look at where you were, there's a lot of shame.
00:18:17.039 --> 00:18:34.079
But as time goes by, you're gonna meet people that never met you as a drinker, and you grow in your life, you meet new people instead of you know that person remembered I fell down a flight of stairs, made a fool of myself.
00:18:34.319 --> 00:18:44.079
And I think it just takes time for us to get out of the fog, at least for me, to clear my head, to learn, to go to meetings, take what I need to leave the rest.
00:18:44.480 --> 00:18:48.480
I had so much support from friends in California being in Boston.
00:18:48.640 --> 00:18:52.400
Frankie, if it's midnight there, you're having a hard time, call me.
00:18:52.640 --> 00:18:55.519
We are the biggest gang in the world, really.
00:18:56.240 --> 00:18:58.559
I could call any of you, you could call me.
00:18:58.720 --> 00:19:00.400
We just keep lifting each other up.
00:19:00.640 --> 00:19:05.759
I've always heard that colloquially there's nothing worse than a reform sinner or reform smoker.
00:19:05.920 --> 00:19:10.319
So I didn't know if you guys just kind of hi, I'm Frankie.
00:19:10.400 --> 00:19:12.000
I used to, you know, like who knows?
00:19:12.079 --> 00:19:13.839
Like, I don't know how these things come up.
00:19:14.000 --> 00:19:20.319
I've been close to it, but never involved to the level that even I am right now speaking to you, right?
00:19:20.400 --> 00:19:20.559
Yeah.
00:19:20.720 --> 00:19:23.039
My old man was a drinker, like that kind of stuff.
00:19:23.119 --> 00:19:26.400
And I I don't know how that resolved or how that turned out.
00:19:26.640 --> 00:19:31.920
So I I just wasn't really sure how the the subject was broached or how the subject came up.
00:19:32.160 --> 00:19:34.880
For me, you know, I mean, Jimmy said it right, you gotta read the room.
00:19:35.119 --> 00:19:49.119
There are people that I've been around that will openly talk about what it is they use, and or they'll, you know, it it'll get brought up somehow, and then I'll kind of depending on what they say, I'll say, you know, something in relation to that and then kind of go from there.
00:19:49.599 --> 00:19:53.920
So I I generally don't just bring it up for the hell of it, you know.
00:19:54.079 --> 00:19:59.839
It once you do it so many times, there's it gets old just kind of repeating yourself.
00:20:00.160 --> 00:20:03.200
So, you know, if somebody has questions, I'll talk to them.
00:20:03.359 --> 00:20:05.200
You know, if they tell me they're struggling with something.
00:20:05.279 --> 00:20:12.480
I mean, there's a a guy that me and you know that he was on alcohol for a long time and he didn't tell many people.
00:20:12.640 --> 00:20:14.880
You know, I just let everybody know that I'm here.
00:20:14.960 --> 00:20:16.160
If you need me, call me.
00:20:16.240 --> 00:20:17.680
If you don't, great.
00:20:18.079 --> 00:20:22.960
So I would actually, if it's okay with you guys, I would like to start with Jimmy if that's all right with you.
00:20:23.039 --> 00:20:25.680
If you don't mind being the first guy thrown under the bus.
00:20:25.839 --> 00:20:32.559
If you could just start with yours, you can start at whatever point you want and uh end at whatever point you want, whatever you're comfortable with.
00:20:32.880 --> 00:20:33.200
Okay.
00:20:33.680 --> 00:20:36.960
I uh grew up in a very dysfunctional household.
00:20:37.200 --> 00:20:46.000
So when we got to the age where most kids knew the difference between right and wrong, my perception was altered.
00:20:46.240 --> 00:20:52.559
So what I thought was normal, I didn't really find out until my adult life it was not normal.
00:20:52.880 --> 00:21:08.000
You know, not to have like a drug a lot, but uh so when I was fourteen and I drank vodka for the first time, I woke up in the hospital and I was getting my stomach pumped that alcohol poison was uh was on my way out, organs was shutting down, you know, the whole night.
00:21:08.480 --> 00:21:15.839
I had this mentality of well, maybe I should just drink beer, maybe I shouldn't drink liquor, you know?
00:21:16.400 --> 00:21:32.160
That same like year that's when the experimenting with all the drugs started because when you go to high school, you know, you're going to high school, you know, and everybody's like, oh well, you know, all this town is so decided.
00:21:32.319 --> 00:21:35.359
I don't care what town it is, high school is high school, you know what I mean?
00:21:35.839 --> 00:21:41.200
So like we kind of like were like the outcasts that kind of like gravitated to each other.
00:21:41.519 --> 00:21:43.519
Most of us actually aren't here anymore.
00:21:43.839 --> 00:21:51.440
And in my journey sobriety, I had to, you know, people, places, and things, those that were left, we were no good for each other.
00:21:51.839 --> 00:21:58.000
So 14 uh, you know, alcohol poison blackout drinkers since day one.
00:21:58.319 --> 00:21:59.759
And then when I was 17, it happened.
00:22:00.000 --> 00:22:04.559
And again, walk up that time with like 55 stitches in my face.
00:22:04.720 --> 00:22:07.119
I don't know if I got hit by a car, fell off my bike.
00:22:07.200 --> 00:22:07.920
I'm 43.
00:22:08.000 --> 00:22:10.000
I still have no idea what happened to this day.
00:22:10.240 --> 00:22:12.400
The drugs really escalated.
00:22:12.559 --> 00:22:15.279
I was arrested like three times before I was 18.
00:22:15.599 --> 00:22:20.240
Addiction, everybody thinks substance use, but then we start to get addicted to other things too.
00:22:20.480 --> 00:22:22.079
We start to get addicted to people.
00:22:22.240 --> 00:22:23.039
You know what I mean?
00:22:23.200 --> 00:22:28.160
Because deep down, as much as we want to be like, you know, get away from me, get away from me.
00:22:28.240 --> 00:22:31.200
You know, a lot of us, I used the pineapple analogy, you know?
00:22:31.359 --> 00:22:39.279
Because we all had our leather and our spikes on and stuff, but we were really soft inside and we just didn't want anybody to really know how vulnerable we were.
00:22:39.440 --> 00:22:42.960
So we put on the uh, you know, the tough guy out that, you know.
00:22:43.200 --> 00:22:46.240
So I I wound up living with somebody very young.
00:22:46.400 --> 00:22:52.559
We were we were living together very, very young, and um that ended because of my because of my alcoholism.
00:22:52.720 --> 00:23:02.799
Then when I was about maybe 24, um, we were all hanging out, we were all partying, and uh I seen two people come out of the back room and I was like, yeah.
00:23:02.960 --> 00:23:04.000
I was like, just give me one.
00:23:04.079 --> 00:23:05.279
And they were like, what, you?
00:23:05.440 --> 00:23:08.160
I was like, just just cut me out one line, just one.
00:23:08.400 --> 00:23:18.799
And then it became the weekends, and then the weekends turned into I'm sleeping in the train station, I lost my job, I lost my fucking apartment, I lost everything.
00:23:18.960 --> 00:23:26.319
You know, I broke my nose at a concert, and I thought, um, I thought the solution to that was now we can cook it up and smoke it.
00:23:27.440 --> 00:23:30.960
You know, just very logical, right?
00:23:31.279 --> 00:23:31.839
Of course.
00:23:32.400 --> 00:23:37.440
So on top of that, you know, I was my alcoholism is insane.
00:23:37.759 --> 00:23:46.240
And I was uh in a very strange reality where I smoked crack with heroin addicts that told me I was drinking too much.
00:23:46.480 --> 00:23:50.160
After a while, I was like uh I was on the verge of suicide.
00:23:50.319 --> 00:24:00.079
I wound up going to a uh a charity for a couple days, and then they got me a bed and a rehab, and I had a nice, a nice 40-day head start into the world.
00:24:00.240 --> 00:24:02.319
I did the geographical cure.
00:24:02.480 --> 00:24:04.720
I flew from New York to Nevada.
00:24:04.880 --> 00:24:13.119
I was going to meetings, I was like washing the ashtrays, making the coffee, and then before you knew it, they they gave me a key.
00:24:13.200 --> 00:24:15.359
I was opening up and I was chairing one of them.
00:24:15.440 --> 00:24:35.119
I thought my higher power walked through the door, you know, like they say in the rooms, but um, she was not my higher power that that took me out, and then uh I was right about to get my eight-month chip, and um, I went out, and then uh I was good for like 30 days, and then after that 30 days, I said, you know what?
00:24:35.200 --> 00:24:37.599
I was like, I'm never gonna get those eight days back.
00:24:38.000 --> 00:24:42.480
And before you knew it, I was 2800 miles away from where I thought the problem was.
00:24:42.960 --> 00:24:49.759
Meanwhile, the problem was inside because you know, we're the masters of hiding stuff and pushing stuff down.
00:24:49.839 --> 00:24:52.480
And I heard this old timer out west.
00:24:52.559 --> 00:24:55.119
He he used the uh the garbage can analogy.
00:24:55.519 --> 00:24:58.960
Picture a metal garbage can, all dented and dirty and stuff.
00:24:59.200 --> 00:25:07.279
You you spray it off, you bang the dents out, and the the garbage can gets shiny, but then when you lift it up, we're still filled with the garbage.
00:25:08.160 --> 00:25:13.519
And he said that to me and it and it and it stuck because that's that's exactly what it was.
00:25:14.160 --> 00:25:21.759
I left Nevada, I went down to Florida, and then um I woke up and I have not touched anything with the exception of coffee.
00:25:22.799 --> 00:25:28.720
Because you know, we need our Bustello, we need our you know, we need our you know.
00:25:29.359 --> 00:25:50.000
The second time around, I I had because when I was out west in a short period of time, I wound up getting a car again, I had a job, I had an apartment, and then just like round one, within no time, I had no electricity, my car had expired tags, and um now I'm driving drunk through the desert and I'm hopped up on Crystal Met.
00:25:50.240 --> 00:25:55.279
And like I was doing great, and um, there was still something that was broken inside.
00:25:55.599 --> 00:26:00.960
And you know, in the rooms when they're like, Oh, well, you have to pray about it, and blah blah.
00:26:01.200 --> 00:26:02.319
Well, guess what?
00:26:02.480 --> 00:26:04.079
It didn't fucking work.
00:26:05.759 --> 00:26:19.839
You know that didn't work for me, and that's actually why now I I want to get into the program because people like us need to know that there's more than one way, you know?
00:26:20.400 --> 00:26:25.920
Um, the second way of the realization is just did I just I was I was like, yo, I can't do this.
00:26:26.000 --> 00:26:27.839
I can't keep living my life like this.
00:26:28.000 --> 00:26:33.599
And I'm the only one out of my family that's that's uh that's made this this decision.
00:26:33.839 --> 00:26:35.359
It sounds like a heavy experience.
00:26:35.839 --> 00:26:59.920
Yeah, like I can keep really keep going, but it would take up the entire thing, and you know, well, we have other happy tales of joy to get to, but uh and I and I'm I'm really looking forward to the you know, one of the questions that I have coming up about deciding that it was time, but I want to get through the other guys first and then we'll kind of come back in plenary and and talk about that moment for each of you.
00:27:00.240 --> 00:27:05.200
So, one of you two fellas, feel free to start with your own uh tale, please.
00:27:05.440 --> 00:27:08.400
I can I guess I'll kind of use the same format Jimmy did.
00:27:08.559 --> 00:27:17.680
I grew up in a really, really LDS family, so there was never any coffee, drinking, drugs, cigarettes, nothing like that was around.
00:27:17.839 --> 00:27:21.599
I didn't do anything until I hit, I think it was my senior year.
00:27:21.680 --> 00:27:25.039
I smoked weed once and just I didn't like it, didn't didn't stick.
00:27:25.200 --> 00:27:26.559
So that was the end of it.
00:27:26.799 --> 00:27:34.079
After high school, I left my parents' house and ended up just kind of hanging out with friends just all over the place.
00:27:34.319 --> 00:27:38.160
Drank a little bit, you know, every once in a while, but it wasn't that big of a deal.
00:27:38.319 --> 00:27:46.880
And then I ended up meeting this family, and I really can't remember how I met them, but there was like five kids, and everybody and the mom did drugs.
00:27:47.039 --> 00:27:50.960
And I ended up living with them for some reason and started doing meth.
00:27:51.119 --> 00:27:53.599
I was there for maybe six months and then started doing meth.
00:27:53.680 --> 00:27:55.279
And I did that for a long time.
00:27:55.359 --> 00:27:58.640
And then one day I kind of figured I didn't want to do this anymore.
00:27:58.799 --> 00:28:02.880
I remember I called my grandma and she said, You can come live with me, but you need to go to rehab first.
00:28:02.960 --> 00:28:04.240
I said, Okay, I agree to it.
00:28:04.400 --> 00:28:08.799
She picked me up and we went to the place and they told me there is no way in hell you'll ever do this on your own.
00:28:08.960 --> 00:28:11.519
And I just kind of looked at her like, what are you talking about?
00:28:11.839 --> 00:28:13.759
Addicts cannot quit cold turkey.
00:28:13.839 --> 00:28:14.799
They can't quit without help.
00:28:14.880 --> 00:28:15.759
You can't do it.
00:28:16.000 --> 00:28:18.799
And I basically told her to fuck off and I walked out.
00:28:19.039 --> 00:28:25.359
And I was away from everything for seven months and started a new job.
00:28:25.519 --> 00:28:27.759
There was a guy there that did meth as well.
00:28:27.839 --> 00:28:29.839
And so that kind of got me roped back into it.
00:28:30.000 --> 00:28:32.480
So at this point, it's just meth and drinking.
00:28:32.640 --> 00:28:40.960
I quit the meth, I quit all the drugs except for drinking, and I was drinking a liter of whiskey, if not more, every day.
00:28:41.200 --> 00:28:43.759
I did that until I had hip surgery.
00:28:43.920 --> 00:28:48.960
And of course, after having four surgeries, they put you on a shit ton of oxy.
00:28:49.279 --> 00:28:52.079
And from there, it just it spiraled out of control.
00:28:52.160 --> 00:28:57.200
And I'm sure you guys know as an addict, you think, okay, well, it's prescribed, there's nothing wrong with it.
00:28:57.359 --> 00:28:59.200
You know, I can do this, I'm not an addict.
00:28:59.359 --> 00:29:01.119
That was just me lying to myself.
00:29:01.279 --> 00:29:04.160
It got to the point where I started buying it from a good friend.
00:29:04.400 --> 00:29:09.519
He eventually had to cut me off because there were days that I was spending a thousand dollars a day.
00:29:09.759 --> 00:29:12.160
Once he cut me off, I went to heroin.
00:29:12.240 --> 00:29:13.680
I spent the same amount of money on it.
00:29:13.839 --> 00:29:14.880
You know, it didn't matter.
00:29:15.119 --> 00:29:18.000
As much as I could get, and I was just high all day long.
00:29:18.079 --> 00:29:21.680
But I still, for the most part, held a job, still took care of my family.
00:29:21.839 --> 00:29:24.640
I just was blitzed the whole entire fucking time.
00:29:24.799 --> 00:29:31.440
And the only way that I could really quit was I kind of ratted myself out to my parents and said, This is what's going on.
00:29:31.680 --> 00:29:35.759
I had to do it while I was high as shit because otherwise I wasn't going to say anything.
00:29:36.000 --> 00:29:40.640
From there, I ended up going to a methadone clinic, and that's kind of what got me sober.
00:29:40.720 --> 00:29:42.799
And that's been March 10th was nine years.
00:29:43.039 --> 00:29:43.359
Awesome.
00:29:44.000 --> 00:29:45.200
So congratulations.
00:29:45.440 --> 00:29:46.160
That's thank you.
00:29:46.240 --> 00:29:48.000
That's kind of just the the gist of it.
00:29:48.240 --> 00:29:48.640
Wow.
00:29:48.799 --> 00:29:49.759
Uh okay.
00:29:50.000 --> 00:29:52.720
And thank you both so far for sharing.
00:29:52.880 --> 00:29:54.880
Uh, so Frank, what about yourself?
00:29:55.200 --> 00:29:59.680
I think it all started with being born in the correct religion of Catholicism.
00:29:59.839 --> 00:30:01.279
Uh, they're pretty easy going.
00:30:01.759 --> 00:30:06.400
No, really, it's just situations where started out the same and just listening.
00:30:06.559 --> 00:30:10.960
And thank you for Jimmy and Mike and sharing because this is not unique.
00:30:11.119 --> 00:30:14.079
It happens to people and they shouldn't be ashamed of it.
00:30:14.319 --> 00:30:17.920
I remember being 11 and 12, my parents divorced.
00:30:18.079 --> 00:30:20.880
I went to go live with my uncle in the Bay Area.
00:30:21.119 --> 00:30:25.039
So I'm drinking Southern Comfort, smoking weed.
00:30:25.279 --> 00:30:27.599
It just perpetually gets worse and worse.
00:30:27.680 --> 00:30:29.200
It's like driving a car.
00:30:29.359 --> 00:30:32.559
You start once, all right, it's 30 miles an hour.
00:30:32.720 --> 00:30:38.160
Once you stop and get back in the car, it's still 30 miles an hour and it's going to go up into 70.
00:30:38.400 --> 00:30:43.359
It never gets any slower, and it continues to be a menace.
00:30:43.599 --> 00:30:47.119
So, with that, you know, you live your life, you think you can handle it.
00:30:47.359 --> 00:30:53.279
I was banned from four clubs, blacking out, bought a bus driver, she won the fight.
00:30:53.359 --> 00:30:54.400
I got her weave.
00:30:54.480 --> 00:30:55.680
I'm wearing it now.
00:30:55.920 --> 00:30:59.200
And then almost threw up on Tom Brady's wife at a party.
00:30:59.359 --> 00:31:03.920
So the point is, it's terrible if it takes over your life.
00:31:04.160 --> 00:31:14.960
For me, what I'm grateful for is I too had people coming up to me and saying, Wow, Frankie, what are you doing with five espresso martinis in front of you?
00:31:15.119 --> 00:31:17.759
And I said, Well, I call it the Gulf Oil Spill.
00:31:17.920 --> 00:31:20.480
And believe me, I'm drinking all of these.
00:31:20.640 --> 00:31:26.079
So I'm appreciative of people out there that have came up and said something.
00:31:26.319 --> 00:31:29.519
I can't make anybody else not do it.
00:31:29.839 --> 00:31:32.319
It's up to us to hit our rock bottom.
00:31:32.480 --> 00:31:37.279
And so when I finally hit my rock bottom, I went to this place called Right Turn.
00:31:37.440 --> 00:31:39.839
It's for artists in recovery.
00:31:40.079 --> 00:31:45.440
And I was just shocked how comedians, rock and rollers, and painters had problems with drugs and alcohol.
00:31:45.519 --> 00:31:46.799
I'm like, what's up with you guys?
00:31:46.880 --> 00:31:47.839
This is so weird.
00:31:48.079 --> 00:31:57.759
It was just nice to go to meetings, and my higher power was Satom, which is a because it's it's a tough thing for a lot of people.
00:31:57.920 --> 00:32:04.240
People were like, you have to have a higher power, but they have that anti-God thing, and I don't blame them at all.
00:32:04.400 --> 00:32:09.440
Like, if a tree is gonna get you sober, I'll plant some more trees to help you.
00:32:09.680 --> 00:32:16.240
But I use Satom, which is a combination of Satan and Tom Brady, the football player.
00:32:16.480 --> 00:32:25.519
So it's either like evil and evil in some people's eyes, or good and evil, because I live in New England, you know, but you're gonna have a sense of humor about it.
00:32:25.680 --> 00:32:35.839
But going back to your experience, guys, is the fact that people want to maybe judge the fact like, oh, you did math, you're horrible.
00:32:36.079 --> 00:32:38.880
Oh, you did this, you're horrible.
00:32:39.119 --> 00:32:42.960
I used to pass checks to keep the party going.
00:32:43.039 --> 00:32:51.440
Well, you know, it's it's it wasn't in my account yet, but I would write it to get the money to go use my drug of choice.
00:32:51.680 --> 00:32:53.759
It's just, it's really tough.
00:32:53.920 --> 00:33:07.680
And but the good thing is, if you do get into a program, I think really coming from the satanic perspective, it's your self-worth, it's your survival, it's the greatest thing.
00:33:08.000 --> 00:33:18.000
This stuff is not healthy for us, and so these addictions, as well, they may be from alcohol to go to Christianity eight days a week.
00:33:18.400 --> 00:33:19.599
That's not good either.
00:33:19.759 --> 00:33:25.279
So it's good just to you know take care of yourself, take what you need and leave the rest.
00:33:25.519 --> 00:33:29.920
I'm just really grateful for the beautiful people that have been around me that just helped me.
00:33:30.000 --> 00:33:36.559
And I just know every day I get up, if I don't drink today, it's gonna be a good day.
00:33:36.799 --> 00:33:37.200
Yep.
00:33:37.440 --> 00:33:46.559
So I'm gonna ask a really ignorant question because I seem to ask those kinds of things on this show, but all of your experiences are very similar.
00:33:46.799 --> 00:33:56.720
Now, I think the big question that I have, not having ever had this issue, as I've said, I've known people who have, but never had it myself.
00:33:57.039 --> 00:33:57.680
Why?
00:33:58.000 --> 00:33:59.359
What were you chasing?
00:33:59.519 --> 00:34:02.160
Were you trying to dull some pain?
00:34:02.319 --> 00:34:04.240
Were you trying to forget reality?
00:34:04.400 --> 00:34:06.799
Were you trying to make your life better?
00:34:06.960 --> 00:34:10.320
Like, why every kid is gonna try it, right?
00:34:10.400 --> 00:34:14.000
And you've all said, Well, we all started when we were kids, so every kid's gonna try it.
00:34:14.239 --> 00:34:23.920
But what made you, and especially you, Jimmy, after almost dying from it, what made the three of you guys continue to chase whatever it was you were chasing?
00:34:24.000 --> 00:34:26.239
So, what were you chasing and why were you chasing it?
00:34:26.559 --> 00:34:29.119
For me, in initially, it was just fun.
00:34:29.280 --> 00:34:37.840
I like the feeling of being high, and then after the surgeries, it was more the pain, you know, being in constant pain 24 hours a day, seven days it fucking blew.
00:34:37.920 --> 00:34:38.880
You know, I hated it.
00:34:39.119 --> 00:34:43.519
And then it got to the point where I just didn't care about reality, you know.
00:34:43.599 --> 00:34:49.199
I just wanted to be in my own little world doing my own little thing, and so that's what kind of kept me doing it.
00:34:49.360 --> 00:34:52.800
Like I'm sure everybody here, you know, you try to get sober, it doesn't work.
00:34:53.039 --> 00:35:04.880
All the things that I did and all the things I enjoyed while I was sober, you know, before I started using, once I started using, it was so hard to get back into doing stuff, you know, because I was so high.
00:35:05.039 --> 00:35:08.079
Once I was used to doing all these things, I enjoyed life again.
00:35:08.239 --> 00:35:10.320
I mean, I was high, but I enjoyed what I was doing.
00:35:10.480 --> 00:35:16.159
It was scary to get sober because every time I wasn't high, I had no motivation to do anything.
00:35:16.320 --> 00:35:19.440
You know, I just hated life, people, everything about it.
00:35:19.599 --> 00:35:21.360
That's really for me what it was.
00:35:21.440 --> 00:35:23.199
I just I couldn't deal with people.
00:35:24.159 --> 00:35:31.119
Anyway, yeah, that's nine years ago, so it's it's a nice change, but there's still things I'm trying to get used to.
00:35:31.280 --> 00:35:37.760
I mean, Frankie said it right, each day that you wake up and you don't use, you know, you know you're gonna make it through the day, it'll be a good day in the end.
00:35:38.079 --> 00:35:42.719
I I would say for me, again, it's just your surroundings growing up.
00:35:42.880 --> 00:35:49.199
I mean, a lot of it, my dad's a cop, you know, not a lot of fostering of care and protection.
00:35:49.679 --> 00:35:51.440
Yes, that was my household.
00:35:51.679 --> 00:35:55.440
And then it's you're scared to death to do the wrong things.
00:35:55.599 --> 00:36:07.280
And then your folks split up and you're not even living with them, and you're 3,000 miles away in great weather, 3,000 kids in my high school, and then you're battling with trying to fit in.
00:36:07.519 --> 00:36:08.880
And what are people doing?
00:36:09.039 --> 00:36:09.760
These things.
00:36:10.000 --> 00:36:14.400
So, you know, naturally it was somewhat of an escape.
00:36:14.639 --> 00:36:19.840
And then I would say a lot of it too comes down to self-esteem and self-worth.
00:36:20.239 --> 00:36:31.519
And there's a lot of pain that we go through that instead of like really talking it out, which in my family, or I don't know if people do it now at days to communicate with each other.
00:36:31.679 --> 00:36:41.039
But once you get those tools and you can talk about things, it's really because therapy's frowned upon, you got to be a tough guy, you can't show your feelings.
00:36:41.280 --> 00:36:47.760
But that's through recovery in the program, speaking at meetings, getting it out of yourself.
00:36:48.000 --> 00:36:50.719
You uh just for me, I feel much, much better.
00:36:51.039 --> 00:37:10.800
Frank, that was that was that was something else right there because I always feel like uh even though it's 2025 and like the world's a weird place, uh I feel like you're not allowed to have feelings and you're not allowed to, you know, express yourself and uh you just have to do what society wants you to do.
00:37:10.960 --> 00:37:12.960
And that that's not the case.
00:37:13.440 --> 00:37:19.679
I feel and uh it took me up until about a year and a half ago I started to speak to a therapist.
00:37:19.920 --> 00:37:26.559
I know it's kind of not we're supposed to do things ourselves, but um something told me I needed it.
00:37:26.639 --> 00:37:30.960
And um I still go once once a week, once every two weeks sometimes, you know.
00:37:31.039 --> 00:37:35.360
I talk it's uh it's just like this, you know.
00:37:35.760 --> 00:37:46.639
And and it has helped me greatly, and I've hated it my whole life because they when I was a little kid, they tried to put me in social workers and they tried to force me to go to school psychiatrists and stuff.
00:37:46.719 --> 00:37:52.079
But to go back to the question, I think uh uh again it was a product of my environment.
00:37:52.559 --> 00:38:05.360
I grew up, my parents are alcoholics, they smoke pot, there was cocaine in the house when I was little, there was this scale on top of this shelf by the uh washer and dryer in this back room when I was real little.
00:38:05.679 --> 00:38:06.639
And I said, What's that?
00:38:06.719 --> 00:38:13.840
And they were like, Oh, it's it's soap, it's soap, and like it didn't click until I was way older.
00:38:14.239 --> 00:38:22.000
And like I remember I was like, Holy shit! You know, I kind of had uh an altered view of life.
00:38:22.159 --> 00:38:30.159
I mean, my father, when I would hang out with him on the weekend, once I was 14, both of the times I got alcohol poison, I was drinking with him.
00:38:30.400 --> 00:38:31.199
It was just us.
00:38:31.360 --> 00:38:51.440
We were behind a uh behind a building the one time, and then another time we were down at this park by the town beach, and he uh he was pretty much homeless my whole life, and I would just go and like we would hang out and we would drink, and that was another thing too, because he was a giant Irish fucking Catholic man, right?
00:38:51.760 --> 00:38:53.840
And uh we out of this kid.
00:38:55.920 --> 00:38:58.559
You know, I'm I'm only I'm half, you know.
00:38:59.519 --> 00:39:00.480
You're the best.
00:39:02.480 --> 00:39:11.679
So we'd be drinking in like an abandoned house, or we'd be drinking in the trailer that he had an extension cord running to, and like he's telling me you gotta believe in God.
00:39:12.079 --> 00:39:16.000
And I'm like, But dude, like look at what he did to you.
00:39:16.239 --> 00:39:20.480
And he was always like, No, God didn't do this, I did this.
00:39:20.719 --> 00:39:24.000
I just never, I just never, you know.
00:39:24.800 --> 00:39:33.280
I guess like, you know, when when you start to smoke pot, and like when you were a kid and cutting school, and I didn't fit in in my high school.
00:39:33.360 --> 00:39:41.519
Our high school was a lot of jocks and guidoes and preppies, and then here I am with my Pantera t-shirt and my Doc Mortens, you know.
00:39:41.840 --> 00:39:55.360
There was maybe two of us in our grade, like there was a couple that were older, and then there was like a couple that were younger, and then you know, even like the hardcore kids, like they had like like a lot of them, they had like money.
00:39:55.519 --> 00:39:57.920
It's just something that I just couldn't relate to.
00:39:58.159 --> 00:40:02.239
So, I mean, I guess I was always just uh, you know, broken somehow.
00:40:02.559 --> 00:40:06.159
You guys said it, you said it right, you know, it's product of your environment.
00:40:06.239 --> 00:40:12.239
You know, I I thought, you know, oh, if I quit hanging out with these people and move over here, I'm gonna be fine.
00:40:12.320 --> 00:40:17.679
And to use your word, if you're already fucked up and broken, you're gonna gravitate towards people that are like that.
00:40:17.840 --> 00:40:21.360
And so I kind of just found other people that did the same shit, you know.
00:40:21.440 --> 00:40:23.760
So it took a long time for it to finally work.
00:40:24.079 --> 00:40:33.039
So a big theme here really is misery loves company because you all seem to seek out people that supported your addictions, and it was a good time, right?
00:40:33.199 --> 00:40:34.239
Like you all did the same thing.
00:40:34.719 --> 00:40:41.440
The guy that I used to buy all my heroin from, once I quit or decided I was gonna quit, he didn't want to stop hanging out.
00:40:41.599 --> 00:40:43.920
And I hung out with him before I even started using.
00:40:44.400 --> 00:40:52.239
He would constantly call me and try and get me to go over, and he'd promise, Oh, you know, I won't bring this around, I won't do this, we'll we'll just go do this, we'll do that.
00:40:52.320 --> 00:40:54.480
And it's like, dude, look who you're talking to.
00:40:54.559 --> 00:40:55.599
You know, that's not gonna work.
00:40:55.760 --> 00:40:57.440
I'm gonna talk you into giving it to me.
00:40:57.519 --> 00:41:02.480
So I had to eventually cut him off and say, you know, kick rocks, I can't have anything to do with you.
00:41:02.800 --> 00:41:05.440
A lot of enablers in that kind of lifestyle, then as well.
00:41:05.679 --> 00:41:05.840
Yeah.
00:41:06.639 --> 00:41:09.360
Well, like that's great self-preservation for you.
00:41:10.320 --> 00:41:10.480
No.
00:41:11.039 --> 00:41:21.679
It sucked, of course, you know, to to not hang out with him, you know, because he he he was a good guy, but if I had wanted any chance of getting cleaned, there was no way I could be around him.
00:41:21.840 --> 00:41:27.840
And he was he eventually got pissed off and told me to fuck off because I would never I would talk to him on the phone.
00:41:28.000 --> 00:41:28.559
That is it.
00:41:28.639 --> 00:41:29.760
I would never go over there.
00:41:29.920 --> 00:41:31.280
I just I just couldn't, you know.
00:41:31.360 --> 00:41:33.039
It's like I don't want to keep doing this shit.
00:41:33.119 --> 00:41:37.199
If you want to, that's fine, that's your choice, but you're not gonna rope me into doing it.
00:41:37.360 --> 00:41:39.679
I'm not gonna be miserable with you anymore.
00:41:40.000 --> 00:41:43.840
So, at what point did you guys realize that you were addicts?
00:41:44.239 --> 00:41:47.440
So uh from what I'm hearing, like Jimmy, you said you had a hard time.
00:41:47.599 --> 00:41:49.199
Well, you lost a job because of it.
00:41:49.360 --> 00:41:54.320
And I know Frankie's always worked, and Mike, I'm not sure, but were you functioning addicts?
00:41:54.559 --> 00:41:58.960
Like, were you were you kind of engaging in the satanic sin of self-deceit?
00:41:59.039 --> 00:42:03.199
You know, if you know you have a problem but are denying it, that's what we would call that.
00:42:03.280 --> 00:42:05.599
So, were you you were you functioning addicts?
00:42:05.920 --> 00:42:06.800
I functioned.
00:42:06.880 --> 00:42:09.519
Um, I was always going to work, either drunk or high.
00:42:09.679 --> 00:42:17.119
All the people that I worked with and hung out with, they saw me come in one day after I had worked there at the specific location for maybe a year.
00:42:17.199 --> 00:42:20.800
And one day I went in there completely sober and they thought I was high.
00:42:20.960 --> 00:42:24.639
They thought I had been drinking or using it out back, and it's like, no, dude, I'm actually sober.
00:42:24.719 --> 00:42:26.159
I've been high this whole entire time.
00:42:26.320 --> 00:42:27.039
I went to work.
00:42:27.119 --> 00:42:34.559
Towards the end is where I got more fed up with people, and the addiction really went off the rails even more.
00:42:34.719 --> 00:42:41.760
I was going on medical leave and then I just didn't care about work, so it didn't matter, but I still function day to day.
00:42:41.920 --> 00:42:49.920
I could drink all day, go to work all night, sleep a couple hours and drink and smoke carolin and go right back to work, and it didn't phase me.
00:42:50.159 --> 00:42:51.440
Jimmy, you're nodding a lot.
00:42:51.599 --> 00:42:53.360
You used to have a similar story.
00:42:53.679 --> 00:43:02.000
Well, you know, I'd be I would sit and I would drink and drink, and uh, you know, obviously, you know, we were talking about the dry goods, so I'd be awake.
00:43:02.079 --> 00:43:10.880
I used to go to work, I would jump on the train and I would go and I was working in the in the city at the time when I started to realize things needed to stop.
00:43:10.960 --> 00:43:15.039
And um, I used to come out of blackouts on job sites.
00:43:15.280 --> 00:43:18.400
So like it was crazy, like crazy.
00:43:18.639 --> 00:43:25.360
I I'd be at work and I you know what was messed up is like you could have asked me like that morning, are you gonna drink today?
00:43:25.679 --> 00:43:28.880
And you could have gave me a lie detector test, and I would say, No, I'm not.
00:43:29.039 --> 00:43:30.320
I'm not gonna drink today.
00:43:30.480 --> 00:43:33.360
And I would have passed because I believed that I wasn't going to.
00:43:33.840 --> 00:43:40.400
And then by the time lunchtime would come, I'd run down, you know, wherever I was and uh grab a couple.
00:43:40.639 --> 00:43:59.760
Before you knew it, now I I'm making it back to the train station, and then you get a couple more there, and then all of a sudden I'm on the phone, and uh, hey, I'm gonna be at this station at this time, and then there's the guy, and then now it's off to the races, and like I'm like, you know, it'd be like two or three in the morning.
00:44:00.320 --> 00:44:05.360
And I'm like ready to get on the next train to go back to work and I'm like, yo, I said I wasn't gonna drink today.
00:44:05.440 --> 00:44:07.119
Like I don't even remember starting.
00:44:07.360 --> 00:44:07.519
Yeah.
00:44:07.760 --> 00:44:09.119
Like crazy.
00:44:09.280 --> 00:44:17.440
Like it's just uh like you th you think of this stuff and like you can't even you can't even fathom it, like you know, when we've been removed for as long as we have now.
00:44:17.920 --> 00:44:18.159
Oh yeah.
00:44:18.400 --> 00:44:20.960
And it's like it's it's crazy, you know?
00:44:21.440 --> 00:44:26.480
And and Mike, I uh to I can relate to you, you know, with your uh with your friend.
00:44:26.719 --> 00:44:30.719
I went to a concert when I was six months clean with my half brother.
00:44:31.199 --> 00:44:33.840
And he's like, You're not fun anymore since you can't drink.
00:44:34.000 --> 00:44:37.280
Let me just call and just just do like we will just get a 40.
00:44:37.360 --> 00:44:38.239
You just do a little bit.
00:44:38.320 --> 00:44:43.119
And like he was hated the fact that I was that I was doing a fucking hated it.
00:44:43.280 --> 00:44:48.639
And this is supposed to be my older, uh, you know, my older, my older brother, my my brother.
00:44:48.800 --> 00:44:50.559
You know, it was it was it was hard.
00:44:50.800 --> 00:44:51.599
It was hard.
00:44:51.920 --> 00:44:56.480
Yeah, there's nothing like blacking out and waking up going, where the what the fuck happened?
00:44:56.559 --> 00:44:57.360
Why am I here?
00:44:58.639 --> 00:45:04.239
Before I started doing heroin, the uh guy that I hung out with, I would buy all my oxy from him.
00:45:04.400 --> 00:45:05.679
We had to go pick up his son.
00:45:05.760 --> 00:45:11.599
I remember this one day, and we went and got a bunch of pills, then we went and picked up his son, and I said, you know what?
00:45:11.760 --> 00:45:16.400
I want to sit in the seat, uh in the passenger seat and just get high, just drive, drive us home.
00:45:16.559 --> 00:45:17.920
I woke up on his couch.
00:45:18.079 --> 00:45:19.039
I had OD'd.
00:45:19.199 --> 00:45:24.800
They didn't even take me to a hospital, they didn't do anything, they had just fucking threw me on the couch and went and did whatever the hell they did.
00:45:24.960 --> 00:45:28.639
That's kind of when I knew, oh shit, there's there's a big problem here.
00:45:28.880 --> 00:45:31.599
Very odd to wake up and go, where the hell am I?
00:45:31.760 --> 00:45:33.920
We were just driving, you know, two seconds ago.
00:45:34.000 --> 00:45:35.519
Why am I sitting here on your couch?
00:45:35.679 --> 00:45:38.639
Because oh, you fucking OD'd and we just put you here.
00:45:38.800 --> 00:45:41.440
Well, you didn't fucking take me to a hospital, you didn't call anybody?
00:45:41.599 --> 00:45:42.559
No, why would we?
00:45:42.719 --> 00:45:42.880
Wow.
00:45:43.039 --> 00:45:44.320
All right, well, thanks for that.
00:45:44.559 --> 00:45:48.000
Frankie, you look like you have your own blackout experiences.
00:45:48.320 --> 00:45:48.960
Oh, yeah.
00:45:49.199 --> 00:45:54.239
I was very much functioning, but I was a Thursday to Sunday drinker.
00:45:54.400 --> 00:46:00.639
One of my bosses one time said, uh, all right, try to drink 25 drinks over the weekend.
00:46:00.800 --> 00:46:02.719
Like it was marathon Monday.
00:46:02.880 --> 00:46:07.760
Yeah, I'm I'm functioning during you know, this binge drinking or whatever.
00:46:08.000 --> 00:46:15.840
It's just, you know, blacking out three times, you know, over a course of a few days in the December when I finally stop.
00:46:16.159 --> 00:46:21.679
It's just that's when it's if it's not a wake-up call, someone needs to wake you up.
00:46:22.480 --> 00:46:32.239
The the great thing about getting sober was though, as well, is that there would be a Saturday where I would wake up and hit the bed and I'm like, where are you?
00:46:32.400 --> 00:46:33.760
What did you do last night?
00:46:33.920 --> 00:46:41.440
It's when I became weeks into my sobriety, I was still doing that because before I had no idea.
00:46:41.679 --> 00:46:48.239
Like if I told someone to burn, if I tell you to burn in motherfucking hell, I actually mean it now.
00:46:48.480 --> 00:46:55.840
I don't ever say it to people now, but but back then it was just anger, rage, etc.
00:46:56.079 --> 00:46:59.199
And it got worse as it went along.
00:46:59.360 --> 00:47:04.159
So yeah, I was able to function through it, but I'm glad it caught up to me.
00:47:04.320 --> 00:47:04.480
Yeah.
00:47:04.639 --> 00:47:08.960
So, Mike, you briefly touched on this for just a general question to the panel.
00:47:09.199 --> 00:47:12.800
At what point did you decide I need to get clean now?
00:47:12.960 --> 00:47:14.880
Was there a light bulb moment for you?
00:47:15.119 --> 00:47:19.119
Jimmy, you said on a certain day you woke up and said I was done.
00:47:19.280 --> 00:47:27.760
So, what was the for each one of you guys, what was the moment where you went, This is not right, and I need to get cleaned up, I need to get some help.
00:47:28.000 --> 00:47:29.199
I really don't know.
00:47:29.440 --> 00:47:38.559
Um, like I said, I knew that if I was sober, I, you know, that day I wasn't going to call anybody or talk to anybody.
00:47:38.800 --> 00:47:40.800
So I just wanted to quit for some reason.
00:47:40.880 --> 00:47:42.400
It was like this has gone on for too long.
00:47:42.559 --> 00:47:49.039
Honestly, there is no rhyme or reason for it because I still worked, I still took care of the family, the kids, did everything I was supposed to.
00:47:49.199 --> 00:47:50.400
I just got sick of it.
00:47:50.639 --> 00:47:56.239
And that's why the only way I knew that I would be able to get clean is if I ratted myself out.
00:47:56.480 --> 00:48:04.079
So I remember one day I just got home from work sitting in my car, completely fucked up, and text my dad and said, Hey, this is what's going on.
00:48:04.159 --> 00:48:05.679
I'm going to a methadone clinic.
00:48:05.760 --> 00:48:10.079
And they knew I had taken pills because of my surgery, but they didn't think there was any problem.
00:48:10.400 --> 00:48:12.960
He just said, Okay, you know, if you need any help, let us know.
00:48:13.039 --> 00:48:15.199
And that's kind of what pushed me to do it.
00:48:15.360 --> 00:48:18.400
Other than that, I mean, there nobody really ever pushed me to get clean.
00:48:18.480 --> 00:48:19.920
No one talked to me about it.
00:48:20.079 --> 00:48:21.519
I don't know why, they just didn't.
00:48:21.760 --> 00:48:24.239
So for me, it was just sick of doing it.
00:48:24.400 --> 00:48:29.519
I just got almost bored, you know, like this has been going on for so many years, I just don't care anymore.
00:48:29.760 --> 00:48:33.280
So I better get clean now before something major happens.
00:48:33.599 --> 00:48:35.760
So, what process did you follow to get clean?
00:48:35.920 --> 00:48:38.400
Did you go to an uh an AA or an NA?
00:48:38.480 --> 00:48:40.400
Or did you have a lot of withdrawals?
00:48:40.639 --> 00:48:42.000
Like, what was the process for you?
00:48:42.480 --> 00:48:50.400
Well, I'll back up a little bit because I was doing the pills and I was drinking, and I'd already had two hip surgeries by that time.
00:48:50.639 --> 00:49:00.800
The drinking was so bad that within a three-month period, I ended up in the hospital four times because I would drink in all over my body, would get giant red splotches, and I had no idea what it was.
00:49:00.960 --> 00:49:02.400
I was just trying to quit.
00:49:02.559 --> 00:49:07.760
You know, but because I had drank so much and was trying to do it cold turkey, it was really messing with me.
00:49:07.920 --> 00:49:11.519
So I finally decided I was going to go into a detox unit.
00:49:11.679 --> 00:49:16.320
And I was only supposed to be there for three days, but I was so bad that I was there for like a week and a half.
00:49:16.480 --> 00:49:24.800
Going to any rehab while it's helpful, there's also, in my opinion, a lot of bad that can come from it because I learned how to smoke this that way.
00:49:24.880 --> 00:49:26.320
I know how to took this drug that way.
00:49:26.400 --> 00:49:29.360
You know, they tell you addicts will tell you everything on how to do it.
00:49:29.519 --> 00:49:31.920
So I was really there just to quit drinking.
00:49:32.159 --> 00:49:36.880
Once I got out, I stayed away from alcohol for a little while, got back into it.
00:49:37.119 --> 00:49:38.719
For me, I just got so sick of it.
00:49:38.800 --> 00:49:41.119
It was it was to the point where I couldn't do it anymore.
00:49:41.440 --> 00:49:42.480
No, it was a struggle.
00:49:42.559 --> 00:49:44.719
I mean, it sounded like it was a struggle, you know.
00:49:44.800 --> 00:49:49.840
But to get to get to the point where you've had enough says a lot.
00:49:50.000 --> 00:49:50.320
Yeah.
00:49:50.559 --> 00:49:54.159
Like you're just like you can't, you're not getting anything out of this anymore.
00:49:54.239 --> 00:49:57.519
And at least you were self-aware enough to go, well, I don't like this anymore.
00:49:57.599 --> 00:49:59.199
I gotta do something different, right?
00:49:59.519 --> 00:50:02.800
Yeah, and and on the AA meetings, you know, you bring you bring that up.
00:50:02.960 --> 00:50:05.119
When I was in detox, they made us go.
00:50:05.199 --> 00:50:10.079
And like I think Jimmy said, you know, when they say, Oh, you need to turn yourself over to a higher power, you need to do this.
00:50:10.239 --> 00:50:11.280
Well, I don't believe in God.
00:50:11.360 --> 00:50:13.679
I think all of that's a bunch of horseshit.
00:50:13.840 --> 00:50:21.679
At the time, I didn't like speaking in a group, I didn't like having to talk to people about what was going on, you know, because I was trying to focus on myself.
00:50:21.840 --> 00:50:23.440
I didn't give a shit about anybody else.
00:50:23.599 --> 00:50:26.960
So I didn't go to them when I got out of detox.
00:50:27.199 --> 00:50:32.800
In order for me to leave, I had to set up a meeting with either an in-house or outpatient rehab.
00:50:33.039 --> 00:50:36.159
And I went into this, the uh company was called Turning Point.
00:50:36.239 --> 00:50:36.639
I remember that.
00:50:36.719 --> 00:50:41.119
I went into the first meeting and they sat us in a room with like 30 people in a circle.
00:50:41.280 --> 00:50:46.400
And from what I knew about rehab or AA is if you had something to share, you shared your story.
00:50:46.559 --> 00:50:51.039
If you don't want to share, you just sit there and and you listen and you take it in.
00:50:51.280 --> 00:50:55.760
Well, whoever was running the meetings would not leave me alone because I was the new guy.
00:50:55.840 --> 00:50:59.440
They kept badgering me and badgering me and trying to get me to answer all these questions.
00:50:59.599 --> 00:51:03.920
And it's like, you realize I've only been sober for seven days, eight days.
00:51:04.079 --> 00:51:07.360
You know, I don't want to talk about my whole entire life with you.
00:51:07.519 --> 00:51:09.280
And so I just kind of walked out.
00:51:09.440 --> 00:51:15.199
And after that, that's when I kind of got really bad because I was so pissed off at how they tried to force it on me.
00:51:15.360 --> 00:51:20.639
And then that kind of led up to where I really abused everything, and enough was enough.
00:51:20.800 --> 00:51:23.599
You know, decided to go to a methadone clinic.
00:51:23.679 --> 00:51:26.639
And honestly, if I wouldn't have, I wouldn't be here today.
00:51:26.800 --> 00:51:38.880
I mean, they they run your, I don't know if anybody else is here's been to one, but just like most rehabs and stuff, uh, they ask you what you take, how much, how often, everything about it, and then they do a drug screen on you.
00:51:39.039 --> 00:51:43.360
And when they looked at mine, they said, you know, quite frankly, you're fucking lucky to be here.
00:51:43.519 --> 00:51:45.519
You you wouldn't have lasted much longer.
00:51:45.679 --> 00:51:48.000
That kind of opened my eyes, going, Oh shit.
00:51:48.239 --> 00:51:51.679
Yeah, I pulled a Jimmy where I said, This is brilliant.
00:51:51.840 --> 00:51:53.920
I'm only gonna drink wine.
00:51:54.159 --> 00:51:56.400
That's all I'm gonna do is drink wine.
00:51:56.559 --> 00:51:58.639
This whisk, this whiskey in this vodka.
00:51:59.280 --> 00:52:03.760
And I just drank the wine for a little bit and I said, This is so boring.
00:52:04.159 --> 00:52:07.440
And then back full speed into the other stuff.
00:52:07.679 --> 00:52:10.079
But it goes back to what Mike said as well.
00:52:10.320 --> 00:52:16.719
I was just really sick and tired of being sick and tired, literally sick, exhausted.
00:52:16.960 --> 00:52:22.880
I was doing Walum Kung Fu three days a week because it was invented in China by a woman.
00:52:23.039 --> 00:52:24.400
I'm not the biggest dude.
00:52:24.559 --> 00:52:27.920
But I also have three sisters to fight over the flat iron.
00:52:28.000 --> 00:52:29.760
So you learn these techniques.
00:52:30.000 --> 00:52:35.519
But even with that, trying to exercise all that alcohol, it just affects you.
00:52:35.679 --> 00:52:40.079
And it finally just came down to all of these blackouts in a row.
00:52:40.239 --> 00:52:43.280
You know, let me let me switch my medicine up.
00:52:43.440 --> 00:52:44.960
That didn't work either.
00:52:45.119 --> 00:52:50.719
And I just remember my last drinks with some Mexican politicians that I know.
00:52:50.880 --> 00:52:53.039
And I said, this is fucking it.
00:52:53.599 --> 00:53:01.840
Three days before New Year's, I went to a meeting, New Year's Day came, I'm with my family, my buddies are bringing up bottles of champagne.
00:53:02.000 --> 00:53:04.320
And I'm like, no, I'm not drinking any.
00:53:04.559 --> 00:53:07.360
And then you get that sort of like, what's wrong with you?
00:53:07.599 --> 00:53:12.320
No, it's what's wrong with you, because you also have a problem.
00:53:12.800 --> 00:53:14.880
You just want me to be a part of it.
00:53:14.960 --> 00:53:19.840
Yeah, and it's about finally caring about ourselves to say, look, I'm done.
00:53:19.920 --> 00:53:29.760
And as the process goes on, you clear your head, get some counseling, and you're gonna run into those people, unfortunately, like with Mike or whatever.
00:53:29.920 --> 00:53:33.679
And it's like it's a texting thing that I say, F T T Y.
00:53:34.159 --> 00:53:35.199
Fuck them.
00:53:35.599 --> 00:53:36.639
That's why.
00:53:36.800 --> 00:53:39.039
Like, mind your own business.
00:53:39.360 --> 00:53:42.880
And if you really want to be a help, be a help.
00:53:43.039 --> 00:53:45.519
And it's like Jimmy getting his KDAC.
00:53:45.679 --> 00:53:46.800
I admire that.
00:53:47.039 --> 00:53:47.840
Learn about it.
00:53:47.920 --> 00:53:49.920
You can help people professionally.
00:53:50.239 --> 00:53:57.440
Um, might when the time comes up, you help people, but we can't, people gotta want to do it, and that and that's it.
00:53:57.519 --> 00:54:00.480
I'm just glad that I got that gift to want to do it.
00:54:01.280 --> 00:54:04.639
I think it's cool that, you know, Jimmy, what you're going to school for.
00:54:04.719 --> 00:54:10.159
Um, at the the clinic, you know, we had to go through um, we have to do counseling and stuff for that.
00:54:10.320 --> 00:54:17.039
I remember seeing so many different counselors there that we would all try to talk to about this stuff, and they all they did is go to school for it.
00:54:17.199 --> 00:54:20.000
They had no clue what it was like to go through this.
00:54:20.159 --> 00:54:23.360
I still talk to these people and I'm just blown away.
00:54:23.440 --> 00:54:40.559
Like, how can you sit here and counsel me on why I shouldn't use or it's gonna do this, or whatever your spiel is, if you have no clue what's going on, just because you read a book and it says addicts do this, and this is what heroin does to you, and this is what alcoholics generally act like, that doesn't mean you know.
00:54:40.800 --> 00:54:48.000
So they finally started getting in people that were former addicts themselves, and those are the ones that have been the most beneficial.
00:54:48.239 --> 00:54:54.480
So I personally think if people are going to be a counselor, you know, a drug counselor, they should have some experience with it.
00:54:54.639 --> 00:54:56.559
You know, they're able to help more, I think.
00:54:56.800 --> 00:54:57.599
Damn right.
00:54:57.760 --> 00:55:03.360
They need more of us, and that's another reason why really yeah, and they need more of us.
00:55:03.599 --> 00:55:04.960
And I think that's really awesome.
00:55:05.119 --> 00:55:09.920
You're doing it because you know, I used to do my counseling every I would do it every week.
00:55:10.159 --> 00:55:16.079
It was mandatory I go once a month, but they changed it so I can, you know, you can go as many times as you want.
00:55:16.239 --> 00:55:26.719
So I started doing it two or three times a week because I was benefiting from it, even though I'd been sober for eight years, nine years, you know, to this point, I would still go through it because I enjoyed it.
00:55:26.960 --> 00:55:31.360
And the counselors they have now, it's like these people have no idea what they're doing.
00:55:31.440 --> 00:55:34.000
And it's to me, you're just here for a paycheck.
00:55:34.079 --> 00:55:38.000
You're not here because you give two shits about what we go through.
00:55:38.239 --> 00:55:41.119
Anyway, that was my little side, my little side spiel on that.
00:55:41.199 --> 00:55:45.760
I I get really frustrated when because I'm very open about it.
00:55:45.920 --> 00:55:50.480
So when they start talking to us, I'll be the first to say, Oh, have you experienced this?
00:55:50.559 --> 00:55:51.519
Do you know what this is like?
00:55:51.679 --> 00:55:54.000
Well, no, and then I'll just all right, that's it.
00:55:54.159 --> 00:55:56.880
Yeah, I really don't give two shits what you have to say now.
00:55:57.119 --> 00:56:01.199
I mean, all the stuff you're telling me is stuff you can read anywhere.
00:56:01.280 --> 00:56:05.199
You know, I want somebody that's gone through it that knows the struggle.
00:56:05.519 --> 00:56:09.840
That's a good lead-in to a question that we have later about red flags.
00:56:10.000 --> 00:56:12.719
But I'm looking forward to touching on that one again.
00:56:12.880 --> 00:56:15.119
Jimmy, I just want to wrap this one up with you.
00:56:15.280 --> 00:56:17.760
So you woke up that morning and you said, That's it.
00:56:17.920 --> 00:56:22.000
So, what precipitated that decision and and what did you do to clean yourself up?
00:56:22.239 --> 00:56:32.079
So I was going to meetings for a while, but my two when I was going, I was going and I would they would say, uh, if you've been drinking within the first 24 hours, don't uh don't share.
00:56:32.159 --> 00:56:35.760
And I would always just sit in the back because I used to go to these meetings and I would be drunk.
00:56:35.920 --> 00:56:37.920
And for some reason I kept going to meetings.
00:56:38.079 --> 00:56:41.840
I went to rehab, but I didn't get right until 2009.
00:56:42.239 --> 00:56:48.159
In 08, the one night my phone rang, I was in somebody's house that I didn't know.
00:56:48.239 --> 00:56:49.360
I was in their apartment.
00:56:49.519 --> 00:56:52.480
I had met them at the bar and I I needed a place to shower.
00:56:52.800 --> 00:56:59.920
So they were like, You can shower at my place, you know, because you know, bar flies, you know, we you know how the how it was.
00:57:00.480 --> 00:57:11.039
So I never had minutes on my phone, even though I was making all good good good money, I because I hadn't nowhere to live, no and I had minutes on my phone, so I'm like, yo, and he's like, You want to go to a meeting?
00:57:11.199 --> 00:57:12.400
I said, Dude, I have to get help.
00:57:12.719 --> 00:57:18.079
And he was like, All right, I was like, No, if I don't get help tonight, I'm jumping in front of the train.
00:57:18.559 --> 00:57:23.360
He picked me up, we were calling people, nobody had a bed, nobody had a bed, until finally we found a place.
00:57:23.760 --> 00:57:26.800
I wasn't allowed to go until I forget what time it was.
00:57:27.280 --> 00:57:28.559
So we had time to kill.
00:57:28.960 --> 00:57:34.320
So we went to the cemetery to see his little brother, who was my best friend, who passed from the disease.
00:57:34.639 --> 00:57:39.840
And then we went to a meeting, and then I went, it's like a like kind of like a crisis center or whatever.
00:57:40.159 --> 00:57:43.679
And they keep you there for a couple days until they can get you a bed in a rehab.
00:57:43.920 --> 00:57:52.800
And I went into the rehab, and that was the first time, and then I fell off, and then the second time, I'm sitting in my apartment, no electricity.
00:57:52.960 --> 00:58:08.400
I got these dollar store candles, I got a um a thing of water because I got a bucket from the dollar store that I would let the water come down to room temperature so I could, you know, shower in the bathtub just with the basically like a sponge bath, more or less, and and I'm and I'm wasted.
00:58:09.199 --> 00:58:10.079
And what's that?
00:58:10.159 --> 00:58:11.119
It's a big book.
00:58:11.679 --> 00:58:24.559
And I was only going to meetings at that time after I went back because I wanted to charge my phone because I had no electricity, you know, and I would have to wait until after nine to use it most of the time because how long ago it was, you know.
00:58:25.039 --> 00:58:29.199
And then finally I was just like, I can't, I can't keep doing this.
00:58:30.000 --> 00:58:31.199
I can't do this again.
00:58:31.280 --> 00:58:32.880
I did do it once before.
00:58:33.280 --> 00:58:35.679
I'm gonna try I I think I could do it again.
00:58:36.239 --> 00:58:37.679
Life is really hard, dude.
00:58:37.920 --> 00:58:39.679
Life is really hard.
00:58:40.239 --> 00:58:44.719
And when we start putting all that other shit in the way of it, it just makes it that much worse.
00:58:45.519 --> 00:58:49.280
I mean, I'm struggling right now in a million different ways, but you know what?
00:58:49.599 --> 00:58:50.719
And you know what's wild?
00:58:51.280 --> 00:58:54.800
I've been removed for 16 years, I still have dreams about it.
00:58:55.039 --> 00:59:05.840
Like you know, what I find really interesting is your story has a common thread, is that you all did it for yourselves.
00:59:06.239 --> 00:59:08.639
You didn't do it for somebody else.
00:59:08.880 --> 00:59:19.440
So is this the kind of thing, and Frankie, I could see you shaking your head, is this the kind of thing that you can do for somebody, or is this the kind of thing you have to do for yourself?
00:59:19.599 --> 00:59:21.360
I rock bottom, baby.
00:59:21.599 --> 00:59:24.079
Rock bottom, yeah, rock bottom.
00:59:24.320 --> 00:59:27.920
Yeah, it it's I think for yourself, you know.
00:59:28.000 --> 00:59:35.519
It's I kind of battled with that question a bit because I've heard it from so many people over the years, like, did you do it for yourself or did you do it for your family?
00:59:35.599 --> 00:59:44.960
And it I can never really answer it, what I felt completely, because in my mind, if I gave two shits about myself, I wouldn't have even been doing this stuff in the first place.
00:59:45.519 --> 00:59:52.239
You know, so part of me wants to say I did it for the family, but then I also know I did it for myself as well.
00:59:52.400 --> 00:59:54.000
You said it right, rock bottom.
00:59:54.079 --> 01:00:01.039
And I think Jimmy said it earlier that everybody has to hit, it was either Jimmy or Frank, I can't remember, but everybody has to hit their rock bottom.
01:00:01.280 --> 01:00:09.599
And I mean, an example, my my grandma calls me all the time because my aunt, my dad's sister, ended up becoming an addict.
01:00:09.679 --> 01:00:11.760
And my grandma knows I went through all this shit.
01:00:11.840 --> 01:00:13.519
So, you know, how can you help her?
01:00:13.679 --> 01:00:14.480
What can you do for her?
01:00:14.639 --> 01:00:17.519
It's like there's there's nothing I can do for her.
01:00:17.760 --> 01:00:20.800
If she wants to talk about it, you know, I'll happily talk about it.
01:00:20.880 --> 01:00:23.280
I'll talk about my experiences, what I did to get help.
01:00:23.440 --> 01:00:27.599
I'll help her in any way I can, but I can't force her to get sober, neither can you.
01:00:27.760 --> 01:00:28.880
You can put her in jail.
01:00:28.960 --> 01:00:31.519
If she doesn't want to get sober, when she gets out, she's gonna use again.
01:00:31.679 --> 01:00:37.039
If you put her in rehab, once she gets out, if she doesn't really want to get sober, she's gonna do it again.
01:00:37.280 --> 01:00:42.639
So the only thing you can do is just sit there and support her, let her know she's loved and that you're there for her.
01:00:43.199 --> 01:00:56.000
So like I got I I did do it for myself in the beginning, but then after a while, you know, because prone to relapse, I started to question some things, you know, really early on.
01:00:56.159 --> 01:01:05.039
But then I, you know, my wife, we were just dating at the time, and she had this little girl, and I met her on her sixth birthday.
01:01:05.360 --> 01:01:08.960
I was just uh mommy's friend at the time, she was real careful about things.
01:01:09.599 --> 01:01:13.119
I said, I gotta keep it, I gotta stay there, I gotta stay.
01:01:13.519 --> 01:01:15.760
You know, this is I have to keep doing it for them.
01:01:16.239 --> 01:01:19.360
Not for them, but because I wanted to keep them in my life.
01:01:19.679 --> 01:01:19.840
Right.
01:01:20.000 --> 01:01:20.800
You know what I'm saying?
01:01:21.280 --> 01:01:28.079
Fast forward through decades, within that time, I wound up adopting her and she's my daughter.
01:01:28.400 --> 01:01:29.920
Yeah, like she's mine.
01:01:30.079 --> 01:01:38.000
You know, things happened to her that she didn't ask for, you know, her biological father kind of just walked away from her and I was there the whole time.
01:01:38.239 --> 01:01:42.639
Since the first day we met on her sixth birthday, we just like magnet.
01:01:43.119 --> 01:01:45.360
Then a couple years later, we had my second daughter.
01:01:45.679 --> 01:01:50.239
Now, of course, decade and a half later, I'm I don't want that life.
01:01:50.559 --> 01:01:52.079
Like, I just don't want that life.
01:01:52.400 --> 01:01:56.960
I I know that I would never have had my life because she don't tolerate that shit.
01:01:57.039 --> 01:01:59.599
She's she didn't have any of the problems that we had.
01:02:00.079 --> 01:02:01.679
She really doesn't tolerate anything.
01:02:02.880 --> 01:02:11.920
I couldn't have my kids go through what I went through because look, we we were talking about counseling, we were talking about helping the adults, right?
01:02:12.239 --> 01:02:16.719
But the family, the kid, there's that kid, the kid needs to help.
01:02:17.039 --> 01:02:28.480
I didn't start to see things until like my kids started hitting a certain age, and I'm looking at them and I'm like, yo, I like totally raped myself of a child, and they're both honest students, they're awesome, you know.
01:02:28.639 --> 01:02:30.000
They take after their mother.
01:02:30.960 --> 01:02:33.599
Oh, I think they take after their dad a little bit too.
01:02:34.000 --> 01:02:36.719
Their dad seems to be a pretty strong guy.
01:02:38.639 --> 01:02:46.639
One thing I've I always find interesting is talking to people is finding out their significant other and how they dealt with it.
01:02:46.800 --> 01:02:50.480
I got pretty fucking lucky because my wife should have left me long ago.
01:02:50.639 --> 01:02:57.599
There was points where she did enable it and she knows she did, but she stuck by the whole time and you know, I couldn't be more thankful.
01:02:57.840 --> 01:03:00.239
As far as kids go, I think you're 100% right.
01:03:00.320 --> 01:03:02.639
You know, they need the help just as much.
01:03:02.880 --> 01:03:09.760
The one thing like me growing up, I did the whole DARE program they did when you're in elementary school, and I did all that bullshit.
01:03:09.920 --> 01:03:12.159
My parents didn't really talk about it though.
01:03:12.320 --> 01:03:15.280
I think when I was little, they just went, drugs and alcohol, bad, stay away.
01:03:15.440 --> 01:03:16.159
And that was it.
01:03:16.320 --> 01:03:23.440
But with with my kids now that they're older or getting older for probably the last seven years, I've been completely honest about everything.
01:03:23.679 --> 01:03:27.280
This is what I did when you were little, this is why I did it.
01:03:27.599 --> 01:03:32.880
If you ever think about going down this road, look at the shit I went through, being honest with them.
01:03:32.960 --> 01:03:38.960
A lot of parents, I feel, try to shelter their kids away from stuff, and I've just been completely open about it.
01:03:39.119 --> 01:03:40.719
Like, you have any questions, ask me.
01:03:40.800 --> 01:03:41.760
I'll tell you straight up.
01:03:41.920 --> 01:03:42.239
I don't know.
01:03:42.320 --> 01:03:46.400
I I personally think that's a good thing to do with the kids, but everybody's different.
01:03:46.639 --> 01:03:54.480
So this is a a bit of a heavy topic in a feeble attempt to lighten it up, whether this is a good question or not.
01:03:54.719 --> 01:03:59.840
I know all of you guys through this thing of ours, and uh, I'm grateful that you're here.
01:04:00.000 --> 01:04:02.639
I think you're three great guys, you know, 100%.
01:04:02.960 --> 01:04:06.079
I've spoken to all of you, and and I can we get along fine.
01:04:06.159 --> 01:04:08.159
We're good to talk on the phone anytime.
01:04:08.480 --> 01:04:15.440
Question though, hearing all of this, would I have liked you when you were using no?
01:04:16.079 --> 01:04:21.840
No, I would have liked Mike because he was sappy go lucky, but Jimmy, why why wouldn't I have liked you?
01:04:22.320 --> 01:04:32.239
I was uh it's it's for some reason alcohol that turns me into a a sloppy, disgusting mean.
01:04:32.880 --> 01:04:37.519
I told you I moved in with somebody when we were very young that was very abusive.
01:04:38.000 --> 01:04:40.880
I was the person that I hate today.
01:04:41.599 --> 01:04:47.519
Like, you know, when you when you're reading a story or something like that, you're like, yo, just gotta kill that motherfucker, you know?
01:04:47.679 --> 01:04:52.960
Like I was that I was just an obnoxious, disgusting individual.
01:04:53.280 --> 01:04:54.480
I was happy go lucky.
01:04:54.559 --> 01:04:57.519
Like, very rarely did I get angry or mad.
01:04:57.679 --> 01:05:08.480
Yeah, I I just I mean, towards the end, the the few times that I did black out towards the end, because I never really blacked out drunk in in the beginning, even though I would drink a shit ton.
01:05:08.639 --> 01:05:11.679
Towards the end, you know, I started getting more obnoxious.
01:05:11.920 --> 01:05:15.280
But for the most part, I was just happy go lucky, not a care in the world.
01:05:15.599 --> 01:05:17.440
Relaxed your inhibitions a little bit.
01:05:17.599 --> 01:05:21.519
I guess it's true what they say, kids drunks in yoga pants never lie, huh?
01:05:21.760 --> 01:05:22.480
Unfortunately.
01:05:23.280 --> 01:05:26.719
I've never sorry, I threw it.
01:05:26.880 --> 01:05:28.000
That is good in there.
01:05:28.159 --> 01:05:28.639
That was good.
01:05:29.599 --> 01:05:31.039
So well, you know, Frank.
01:05:31.360 --> 01:05:34.320
It just depends what time of the night I suppose.
01:05:35.920 --> 01:05:42.239
No, like as far as I I was I'm still a lot of fun, had a lot of fun getting wasted.
01:05:42.559 --> 01:05:47.920
But again, it's at what level, what time of night, whether you would have liked me or not.
01:05:48.159 --> 01:05:49.199
Early on, yes.
01:05:49.599 --> 01:05:58.079
So I saw some pictures of you back in the day and uh with your shorter haircut, and you were you were so cherubic back then.
01:05:58.320 --> 01:05:59.440
You were so innocent.
01:06:00.159 --> 01:06:00.719
Yes.
01:06:01.039 --> 01:06:03.039
My hair turns water into wine now.
01:06:03.119 --> 01:06:04.159
I just can't drink it.
01:06:04.239 --> 01:06:07.360
So lucky lost the party.
01:06:09.039 --> 01:06:13.440
Since we move past the dark part of the show, I guess now it's like the sun's out.
01:06:13.519 --> 01:06:19.039
So I can ask you guys, and Mike, you touched on this before, is how's life now that you're recovered?
01:06:19.199 --> 01:06:25.519
So the question, uh the reason that I asked the question is I'm I'm hyper self-aware, but that's just me by nature.
01:06:25.679 --> 01:06:30.800
So are you guys now hyper self-aware of the triggers that make you might want to start using again?
01:06:30.960 --> 01:06:33.039
And are you always fighting that?
01:06:33.280 --> 01:06:34.800
Will you always fight that?
01:06:35.039 --> 01:06:35.519
I am.
01:06:35.760 --> 01:06:37.440
I am very hyper-aware now.
01:06:37.599 --> 01:06:42.239
You know, you said earlier I'm a photographer, um, do a lot of landscape photography.
01:06:42.559 --> 01:06:52.880
So the guy I used to buy all my heroin from, the way to his house is the same way I would have to go to get to the mountains to do all uh my work.
01:06:53.039 --> 01:06:58.639
And when I first got sober, I would try to drive up there thinking, okay, great, I feel I feel good.
01:06:58.800 --> 01:07:01.440
Let's go take some photos, let's go hiking, camping.
01:07:01.519 --> 01:07:10.639
And I would get almost to where the street turn off to his house was, and I would just start freaking out, major panic attacks that I would just have to turn around and go home.
01:07:10.800 --> 01:07:18.079
For a long time, I couldn't really leave my house unless it was something I had to do because there were so many things that triggered me.
01:07:18.239 --> 01:07:29.199
Where whether it was me going to his house or us going to a specific spot to score or whatever now, I mean, there's still things that do trigger me.
01:07:29.440 --> 01:07:35.920
If I get angry at something or you get sad or depressed or anxious, any any emotion can trigger you.
01:07:36.079 --> 01:07:40.159
You know, I'll get mad and I'm like, fuck, I just want to go get high because I don't have to deal with this shit.
01:07:40.320 --> 01:07:42.719
Um, because that's what I always did in the past.
01:07:43.039 --> 01:07:48.480
But I've learned how to navigate that and talk myself out of relapsing.
01:07:48.559 --> 01:07:50.320
I mean, yes, I'm still hyper-aware.
01:07:50.559 --> 01:07:56.239
Life is, I mean, as good as it can get, you know, things can always get better, but I'm happy now.
01:07:56.719 --> 01:08:01.599
Overall, like I said, life is really hard, you know, especially now.
01:08:01.679 --> 01:08:05.599
You know, nobody's well, we're all kind of in the same boat, you know what I mean?
01:08:05.679 --> 01:08:10.719
Like, and just the the the world is it's wild right now.
01:08:11.280 --> 01:08:18.159
So of course there's gonna be like things that would have been a trigger that are not now.
01:08:18.560 --> 01:08:21.600
I can I can go to a concert by myself, you know.
01:08:21.680 --> 01:08:27.600
We we we had tickets to a couple shows, and like my wife's like, I'm not going, go seriously, right?
01:08:27.760 --> 01:08:28.640
I'm like, come on.
01:08:28.880 --> 01:08:30.319
She's like, go, go, go, go.
01:08:30.560 --> 01:08:34.720
And like, I can go to a concert by myself, and I don't even think about drinking.
01:08:34.880 --> 01:08:37.680
I can I I can like do things now.
01:08:37.840 --> 01:08:41.920
I know that if there's a reason to be there, then um there's a reason to be there.
01:08:42.239 --> 01:08:45.760
But I know that I wouldn't have the things that I have in my life right now.
01:08:46.239 --> 01:08:47.439
Of course I want more.
01:08:47.920 --> 01:08:54.880
All right, especially being over here and it's it's it's not cheap, and uh, you know, a lot of us are struggling.
01:08:55.279 --> 01:08:56.640
Financially that'll happen.
01:08:56.960 --> 01:08:57.760
It'll happen.
01:08:58.079 --> 01:08:59.520
It's it's an up and down.
01:08:59.760 --> 01:09:06.640
But as far as everything else, like, and I hate to sound cheesy, but all the stuff that I have, money can't buy.
01:09:07.039 --> 01:09:08.319
Like, I really can't.
01:09:08.640 --> 01:09:13.439
I I couldn't imagine life without the things that I've acquired.
01:09:13.600 --> 01:09:19.039
I I have one friend in this state, everyone else is in the other states.
01:09:19.279 --> 01:09:20.319
I don't mind that.
01:09:20.479 --> 01:09:25.039
I got my wife who, you know, sometimes she wants me around.
01:09:26.399 --> 01:09:29.840
You know, spoken like a true married man, I'll tell you.
01:09:31.600 --> 01:09:33.439
Same thing with my girls, you know.
01:09:33.600 --> 01:09:36.079
Sometimes they want me around, you know.
01:09:36.880 --> 01:09:41.920
My cats, I saw I saw Frankie had the had a um a celebrity on the bat right there.
01:09:42.479 --> 01:09:46.560
You know, I got my cats and my turtle, and just uh you can't explain it.
01:09:46.640 --> 01:09:51.279
You can't explain like that atmosphere, like you know, you you just you wouldn't have that atmosphere.
01:09:51.520 --> 01:09:53.439
And Frank, how about you as recovered?
01:09:53.520 --> 01:10:00.479
Now, what's interesting with you, Frankie, is you actually drink non-alcoholic beverages.
01:10:00.640 --> 01:10:02.800
How close does that come to the line for you?
01:10:02.960 --> 01:10:12.079
Because I remember seeing something you had posted about a non-alcoholic Guinness, and I thought, where's that line for you to say, well, you know what?
01:10:12.319 --> 01:10:13.920
One or whatever it is.
01:10:14.000 --> 01:10:16.159
Like, how do you how do you stay question?
01:10:16.319 --> 01:10:22.159
Yeah, how do you stay constant with the temptation always in your face, especially if you're entertaining it?
01:10:22.800 --> 01:10:37.039
Well, I I just again, there's no alcohol in it, so it's pretty much the flavor of mud without the it's kind of like even the zero Heineken's, which I used to drink when I was 12.
01:10:37.359 --> 01:10:45.199
It's actually so then I got the Heineken Zero, there's no alcohol in it, so I drink it, and I'm like, this tastes like skunk piss.
01:10:45.760 --> 01:10:48.319
Why did I ever drink it in the first place?
01:10:48.479 --> 01:10:51.920
Oh, because there was alcohol, it it it did something to you.
01:10:52.079 --> 01:10:53.920
But with that, that's just for me.
01:10:54.000 --> 01:10:56.479
It's just, you know, there's no alcohol in it.
01:10:56.560 --> 01:10:58.159
So I don't have a problem with that.
01:10:58.239 --> 01:11:04.399
But there are times where it'll be 80 degrees, you drive by a liquor store, you see people coming out.
01:11:04.640 --> 01:11:09.680
But with all of this, it's the one saying of think through the drink.
01:11:09.760 --> 01:11:11.760
You look at the lights in a bar.
01:11:12.079 --> 01:11:13.359
Oh, they're low.
01:11:13.600 --> 01:11:14.800
Look at all this stuff.
01:11:14.960 --> 01:11:24.800
This whiskey, it whispers until you know, you know, you're laying face down, you shake your pants, yeah, you know, you have no money.
01:11:24.960 --> 01:11:27.199
I mean, that's what happens.
01:11:27.439 --> 01:11:32.640
So you think through where that drink's gonna bring, whatever temptation comes.
01:11:32.880 --> 01:11:34.640
We all have been there.
01:11:35.119 --> 01:11:37.199
I just don't want to go back.
01:11:37.840 --> 01:11:42.960
So, with that, I still go out, I perform, I'm around it.
01:11:43.279 --> 01:11:47.600
But there are remember when's when I see people who can't walk.
01:11:47.840 --> 01:11:49.439
And I'm like, that was me.
01:11:49.600 --> 01:11:51.039
It's disgusting.
01:11:51.199 --> 01:11:53.680
I I just don't want to be that person.
01:11:54.159 --> 01:12:11.439
There are times where I really think that I need to make this show video, and and never would I make light of this, but I have to share with you that when Frankie said face down on the street and you shit your pants, the other two guys are nodding like we've all been there, buddy.
01:12:11.680 --> 01:12:16.319
Yeah, I had too much to drink, and now my socks know things they shouldn't.
01:12:16.479 --> 01:12:17.119
Yeah.
01:12:18.159 --> 01:12:23.680
It smell smell interestingly funky when they did before.
01:12:24.960 --> 01:12:34.239
I you know, I think that's a great question because when I was in uh detox, I asked about non-alcoholic beer, you know, like, hey, is this fine?
01:12:34.319 --> 01:12:40.720
You know, as long as I'm not drinking something with alcohol, because it had only been literally like two days since I had drunk.
01:12:40.880 --> 01:12:54.079
They said, you know, I wouldn't even entertain that idea because you're going to start drinking it, all those memories are gonna come up, and you're not gonna be getting drunk, and you're gonna just say, fuck it, and then you're gonna start drinking again.
01:12:54.399 --> 01:12:58.159
I have never once tasted a non-alcoholic uh beer.
01:12:58.239 --> 01:12:59.600
I don't know what it tastes like.
01:12:59.680 --> 01:13:01.600
I mean, I just kind of stayed away from it.
01:13:01.840 --> 01:13:07.119
If you miss uh skunk piss, there's a nice Heineken zero for you.
01:13:07.279 --> 01:13:08.479
You're not missing anything.
01:13:08.640 --> 01:13:11.039
I don't want to know why you're making that comparison.
01:13:11.119 --> 01:13:12.239
None of us do.
01:13:12.640 --> 01:13:13.920
Well, it smells like it.
01:13:14.000 --> 01:13:14.319
I don't know.
01:13:14.640 --> 01:13:16.800
It smells one, it's yeah, it is.
01:13:16.960 --> 01:13:22.560
Heineken was always fucking rancid skunk, it's disgusting.
01:13:22.800 --> 01:13:24.560
Uh I got nothing to compare it to.
01:13:24.640 --> 01:13:26.560
I got Canadian beer up here, fellas.
01:13:26.640 --> 01:13:30.079
Sorry, I I can't I can't compare it to skunk pizza, really.
01:13:30.399 --> 01:13:32.720
You got the good beer, the good beer, huh?
01:13:32.880 --> 01:13:34.479
The good beer, exactly.
01:13:34.880 --> 01:13:40.399
Maybe not the best subject to bring up on a show about addiction, but you know, I'm just trying to fit in.
01:13:40.640 --> 01:13:42.239
Yeah, no, I just want to be cool.
01:13:42.399 --> 01:13:44.720
Yeah, I just want to be cool like you guys.
01:13:45.600 --> 01:13:52.720
So so what signs would you say somebody needs to watch out for when their indulgence starts to become a compulsion?
01:13:52.880 --> 01:13:55.439
Oh so are there are there red flags?
01:13:55.520 --> 01:14:00.720
Like, is there something obvious where it's like, oh shit, it's time to do something about this?
01:14:01.119 --> 01:14:02.960
That that's a tough question, honestly.
01:14:03.119 --> 01:14:05.279
I mean, I don't know how to answer that one.
01:14:05.439 --> 01:14:08.880
I I was reading it and I couldn't couldn't answer that right away.
01:14:08.960 --> 01:14:14.479
So see, for me, it was the real it was the reality of somebody saying to me, What are you doing?
01:14:14.720 --> 01:14:16.800
And I didn't even realize what I was doing.
01:14:16.960 --> 01:14:19.680
Now, I was nowhere near the level you guys were.
01:14:19.840 --> 01:14:25.680
I mean, I'm listening to your stories and I'm going, I've never even seen any of the things you're talking about.
01:14:25.760 --> 01:14:28.960
So I'd I'm grateful that I had a sheltered life here.
01:14:29.279 --> 01:14:33.359
But uh, you know, it was somebody pointing it out and saying, What are you doing, man?
01:14:33.520 --> 01:14:34.960
Like it's Thursday morning.
01:14:35.119 --> 01:14:36.880
Why are you making yourself a drink?
01:14:37.119 --> 01:14:45.039
They I I was never I was never asked anything like that just because the people I bought it from were the people that were friends that I hung out with.
01:14:45.119 --> 01:14:48.239
So a dealer is not gonna tell you what the fuck are you generally.
01:14:48.319 --> 01:14:53.760
I mean, they there have been you know cases, but generally they're they just want the money, so they don't give a shit.
01:14:54.000 --> 01:15:04.880
Yeah, I just I have a lot of dear friends that are were active, while alcoholics, like to the point of they're getting banned from places, you know.
01:15:05.039 --> 01:15:23.760
Oh, Johnny can't go in here, this person can't go, but yet still you talk to them about it, or even their dear best friends would try to talk to them, they're still going to do it until they do it for themselves or do it for their family or for whatever reason.
01:15:23.920 --> 01:15:27.439
And this same friend of mine, he ended up having a stroke.
01:15:27.680 --> 01:15:32.159
So this stuff is not good for you, it's a poison.
01:15:33.039 --> 01:15:38.960
And they don't tell you that because I went to my doctor one day, I am filled with anxiety.
01:15:39.199 --> 01:15:40.960
Well, what are you doing there, Frankie?
01:15:41.279 --> 01:15:42.319
Well, I drank.
01:15:42.560 --> 01:15:44.720
Well, that causes anxiety.
01:15:44.880 --> 01:15:46.399
I go, what are you talking about?
01:15:46.560 --> 01:15:50.159
What about the wild pirate Morgan's chicks?
01:15:50.319 --> 01:15:56.399
I mean, look at them, look at the corona commercials, look at all the fun these people are having on TV.
01:15:56.640 --> 01:16:00.479
And he said, It's marketing, it's lies.
01:16:00.720 --> 01:16:01.920
And you're like, What?
01:16:02.239 --> 01:16:09.760
Oh, you know, so they're not here, whether it's the dealers, the big corporations, the fights that they have with the tobacco.
01:16:09.920 --> 01:16:17.600
There are these major lobbies that these blues and reds that we think we vote for that can change anything are paying them.
01:16:18.079 --> 01:16:21.279
So, what about something like uh like an intervention?
01:16:21.359 --> 01:16:27.279
Do you think that that would have been effective for you, or do you think that's just like screaming into a windstorm?
01:16:27.680 --> 01:16:29.600
No, I think that it wouldn't have affected it.
01:16:30.960 --> 01:16:31.600
But go ahead.
01:16:31.680 --> 01:16:32.000
Yeah.
01:16:32.399 --> 01:16:34.000
Oh, sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you.
01:16:34.079 --> 01:16:35.680
Yeah, it would have worked for me.
01:16:36.000 --> 01:16:46.079
Again, I mean, there are, I'm sure, people that it does work for, but it still kind of goes back to the same saying, you know, unless you hit your own rock bottom, it's not gonna fucking matter.
01:16:46.239 --> 01:16:51.680
I know I already used the example of my aunt, but that was the thing my grandma said, you know, well, what if we do an intervention?
01:16:51.840 --> 01:16:57.680
90% of the time, if anybody's even seen the show, most of those people just walk out telling everybody to fuck off.
01:16:57.840 --> 01:17:01.760
You know, it it wouldn't have worked for me.
01:17:01.920 --> 01:17:03.199
I know that for a fact.
01:17:03.520 --> 01:17:06.720
Yeah, I probably need the intervention for sure.
01:17:06.960 --> 01:17:13.039
But where we end up, and that's you know, where a lot of these sayings from the halls have helped me.
01:17:13.199 --> 01:17:15.920
It's like jail's institution.
01:17:16.079 --> 01:17:17.920
What are the choices you want to make?
01:17:18.159 --> 01:17:23.920
Well, what I like about asking you guys this is there are no obvious common red flags.
01:17:24.000 --> 01:17:39.119
And it I think it speaks, Mike, to you saying you can write down in a book what a typical alcoholic does, what a typical heroin addict does, but it's really coming across as a very individual experience, although it's shared, it's very individual.
01:17:39.359 --> 01:17:45.359
So none of you would be in a position to say, are there any red flags that I should be looking out for?
01:17:46.239 --> 01:17:50.239
So if I shift years a little bit, oh no, go ahead.
01:17:50.720 --> 01:17:58.640
No, I just think that like I think there would be some obvious red flags of people continuing to use.
01:17:58.960 --> 01:18:08.079
I mean, you can if you're looking from an outside perspective, if I see someone doing this behavior over and over, that's a red flag for me.
01:18:08.239 --> 01:18:09.680
They may enjoy it.
01:18:09.840 --> 01:18:14.239
There's gonna be no stopping them, you know, if it's someone you care about.
01:18:14.399 --> 01:18:28.079
You know, you just try to plant some seeds, but that's as far as it's gonna go, including they have Al-Anon meetings or whatever the NA equivalent is, that you're living with these people in addiction.
01:18:28.159 --> 01:18:40.800
And it really does affect the non-drinker too, especially whether it's a relationship, a family, because we legitimately, if we do, love and care for these certain family members, and it's heartbreaking.
01:18:40.960 --> 01:18:51.279
But again, it's it's you know, going back to your um like your lover, but it people can be put in jail, they'll come out and use, they'll go over these things.
01:18:51.439 --> 01:18:55.039
So, you know, there are red flags, it's just like, you know, then what?
01:18:55.439 --> 01:18:58.239
So the three of you guys have been very candid with your stories.
01:18:58.399 --> 01:18:59.279
You've shared them.
01:18:59.359 --> 01:19:02.720
You the, you know, said how you've all hit rock bottom and what have you.
01:19:02.880 --> 01:19:13.359
Now, let's say someone's listening to this podcast and says, Wow, I I might have a problem here, or look, these guys were able to get through it whatever way they got through it.
01:19:13.520 --> 01:19:17.920
What would you say to that person who thinks that they might have an addiction right now?
01:19:18.319 --> 01:19:20.960
If you think that you might have one, you have one.
01:19:21.199 --> 01:19:22.399
Yeah, you have one.
01:19:22.560 --> 01:19:25.119
Um, it's just it's different levels, you know.
01:19:25.359 --> 01:19:26.239
Yeah, wow, okay.
01:19:26.399 --> 01:19:29.520
I mean, get the help immediately.
01:19:29.760 --> 01:19:40.000
Yeah, you know, it doesn't have to be inpatient, you could be uh you could be intensive outpatient, go to a meeting, go start, just start your journey.
01:19:40.239 --> 01:19:44.720
Yeah, talk just talking to some, even talking to a friend or a family member.
01:19:44.880 --> 01:19:54.319
I mean, that has been, I think, besides going to the clinic, that was the biggest thing for me is having a friend that he knew I used and would just say, dude, you're gonna do what you're gonna do.
01:19:54.399 --> 01:19:55.359
I wouldn't do it.
01:19:55.600 --> 01:19:56.720
Now I can call him.
01:19:56.800 --> 01:20:00.479
And I mean, I still known the dude for over 30 years, still see him every week.
01:20:00.560 --> 01:20:06.399
And no matter what I'm going through, I know I have somebody to bitch to, you know, and just get everything off my chest.
01:20:06.560 --> 01:20:09.680
And I think that's a big help for anybody going through it.
01:20:09.920 --> 01:20:19.359
The dynamic shift here is unbelievable because I ask you guys to share your stories and you all pause and you all wait and you measure what you're gonna say.
01:20:19.439 --> 01:20:26.640
And I say, What do you say to somebody who thinks they might have an addiction and you're fighting for airspace, like you're so passionate about this?
01:20:26.960 --> 01:20:28.640
That's amazing.
01:20:28.800 --> 01:20:31.439
That is absolutely amazing, and I so appreciate it.
01:20:31.680 --> 01:20:37.039
You can find meetings on uh online, it's just that easy in your area.
01:20:37.279 --> 01:20:47.600
Like my sponsor would say, Let's just uh drop into Oklahoma, let's find a meeting, they're there, and that's why I think it's it's good to take what you need and leave the rest.
01:20:47.760 --> 01:20:51.680
There's also a saying, principles before personalities.
01:20:51.920 --> 01:20:59.520
You're gonna meet some people where look, I don't think my my backhand is big enough to get this person away from me.
01:20:59.840 --> 01:21:07.760
Some people you're just not gonna mix with, but that's why the principles of trying to get sober, do the next right thing.
01:21:07.920 --> 01:21:15.760
I can't control people, places, or things, but I can control myself, yeah, you know, and enjoy life sober.
01:21:15.840 --> 01:21:28.880
Because there was a time I walked into a bar and the bar manager had been sober for 15 years, and I said to him, I said, I have so much time now, I don't know what to do with my life.
01:21:29.199 --> 01:21:33.680
And he said, Pretty soon, Frankie, you're gonna fill it with great things.
01:21:33.920 --> 01:21:46.159
So now I get to ruin people's lives through punk music because all I care about is how I dress up, you know, have good musicians, but have a good time without that stuff.
01:21:46.319 --> 01:21:47.279
It's wonderful.
01:21:47.680 --> 01:21:49.039
You you said it right.
01:21:49.119 --> 01:21:57.039
I mean, when you get sober, you have so much free time, isolation and free time not doing anything, all that shit.
01:21:57.119 --> 01:22:02.079
If you have nothing to do and you're just sitting around, that can just go right back into it.
01:22:02.239 --> 01:22:11.439
So it was really hard for me to find shit to do because I am on disability, so can't go work, nothing I can do.
01:22:11.600 --> 01:22:16.640
So it's like I gotta figure out what I can do to occupy this time, or I'm just gonna go right back to it.
01:22:16.880 --> 01:22:23.359
I don't want to admit this to anybody, but I would wake up early and go to Target at 8 a.m.
01:22:23.600 --> 01:22:24.720
I had so much time.
01:22:24.960 --> 01:22:29.760
My weekends were so long, I'm actually at Target walking around.
01:22:30.000 --> 01:22:32.000
But that was a step to do something.
01:22:32.079 --> 01:22:36.159
You know, once you get the fog out of your way, it's just really, really nice.
01:22:36.319 --> 01:22:38.000
Yeah, and you have the support.
01:22:38.319 --> 01:22:39.199
It's okay, man.
01:22:39.359 --> 01:22:40.560
We're not gonna tell anybody.
01:22:40.640 --> 01:22:43.359
It's at least I think these guys are good for it.
01:22:43.439 --> 01:22:45.840
So we'll hold that close to the vest, dude.
01:22:46.000 --> 01:22:46.399
Deal.
01:22:53.039 --> 01:23:07.359
I I had one friend that I grew up with that when I started going to the methadone clinic, I struggled really bad because he was the type that said, Okay, well, you're going here to get off heroin, but you're doing this, so you're not sober.
01:23:07.439 --> 01:23:12.319
It's like the way his brain worked, he was just he wasn't asking questions about it.
01:23:12.479 --> 01:23:19.840
He was more or less just being a dick, trying to say, because he's the type of person that would always try to be better than everybody in everything he did.
01:23:20.079 --> 01:23:36.239
It was hard to fill up the time, getting rid of everybody, not having shit to do, trying to work on staying sober, being at this clinic, dealing with all the bullshit there, dealing with the shit people thought of you know, so replacing it with all these good things, finding all these good things to do.
01:23:36.319 --> 01:23:39.920
It just, I mean, Frank, you said it right, it makes everything so much better.
01:23:40.479 --> 01:23:42.319
Carry that a little further, then.
01:23:42.720 --> 01:23:46.479
What would you say to somebody in the midst of their recovery?
01:23:46.800 --> 01:23:50.560
All of you have basically said, Oh, well, I tried more than once.
01:23:50.800 --> 01:23:57.600
Is there any kind of encouragement you can give to somebody who's in the middle of their recovery, might be having some some struggles?
01:23:57.840 --> 01:24:00.800
What kind of support could they seek on their own?
01:24:00.880 --> 01:24:06.960
And what kind of support could you offer them as uh, especially with uh Jimmy going for his case act?
01:24:07.039 --> 01:24:10.960
Like, what kind of support is out there for someone in the middle of this right now?
01:24:11.279 --> 01:24:23.199
If you're in the middle of it and you're starting to question it, or you're starting to feel like you know, that's completely it's completely natural because we spend so much time on the other end of the table, right?
01:24:23.840 --> 01:24:25.920
You don't want to go backwards.
01:24:26.319 --> 01:24:28.880
Most of us didn't want, we didn't want to.
01:24:29.039 --> 01:24:33.359
There's just something inside like just you can't give up, you can't stop.
01:24:33.760 --> 01:24:37.600
You know, you you have like you know, you're here, you're here.
01:24:37.920 --> 01:24:43.760
And I and I try to tell people we woke up this morning, we already won half the battle.
01:24:44.000 --> 01:24:45.840
Yep, and that's that's it.
01:24:46.000 --> 01:24:48.239
You know, like Frankie said, call somebody.
01:24:48.399 --> 01:24:50.079
There's meetings, find a meeting.
01:24:50.399 --> 01:24:57.840
I don't really go to too many meetings nowadays, but I 100% will always say that AA got the ball rolling.
01:24:58.000 --> 01:25:06.640
Yeah, you meet a lot of these guys and they like they hide in the rooms, and like I didn't get sober and I didn't get clean because I wanted to spend my life hiding in the room.
01:25:06.960 --> 01:25:09.279
I wanted to learn how to live life.
01:25:09.520 --> 01:25:14.880
Um still not really 100% sure how to live life.
01:25:16.399 --> 01:25:18.720
But you know, that's just go.
01:25:18.880 --> 01:25:23.760
And and like, you know, like us, we don't um we don't think like the rest of them.
01:25:24.239 --> 01:25:28.479
So just when they start dropping the three-letter word, just tune it out.
01:25:28.560 --> 01:25:29.359
You know what I mean?
01:25:29.520 --> 01:25:32.159
Because you know what, that there's still that was the hard thing for me.
01:25:32.560 --> 01:25:33.199
So much more.
01:25:33.439 --> 01:25:34.319
Of course.
01:25:34.640 --> 01:25:36.880
Just read me the agnostics, yeah.
01:25:37.039 --> 01:25:37.359
Yeah.
01:25:37.600 --> 01:25:39.359
I mean, you you guys said it right.
01:25:39.520 --> 01:25:45.760
If if somebody's in the middle of recovery, you know, and feel like you're slipping backwards, you you've got to talk to somebody.
01:25:45.840 --> 01:26:00.800
And that's what I think that was really the the hardest thing for me, because when this one friend who I don't even talk to anymore now because of it, but when he started talking shit about me going to a methadone clinic and all this, it really made me question everything that I was doing at the time.
01:26:00.960 --> 01:26:11.359
Like, okay, is this working for one, even though I've been sober, you know, for X amount of years, or am I really just replacing it, or is my life alive, you know, all this bullshit.
01:26:11.439 --> 01:26:15.359
And so questioning it, I almost said, fuck it.
01:26:15.600 --> 01:26:20.000
You know, that I didn't even want to continue going through all the treatment and the recovery.
01:26:20.159 --> 01:26:25.760
And so that's what led me to doing more counseling, which I hated counseling growing up.
01:26:25.840 --> 01:26:36.159
I hated my parents always made me see a therapist, so I always vowed never to talk to another therapist because of the experience I had until I started going to this clinic.
01:26:36.319 --> 01:26:40.479
And then that kind of it it helped me if if it wasn't for that, I wouldn't be here.
01:26:40.640 --> 01:26:47.039
So I started using counseling, talking to anybody I could, you know, family if I was struggling with whatever it was.
01:26:47.199 --> 01:26:48.239
It's a huge help.
01:26:48.319 --> 01:26:50.079
You got to find somebody that you can trust.
01:26:50.479 --> 01:26:53.680
A lot of those people we found out were not actually our friends.
01:26:53.840 --> 01:26:54.239
Oh, no.
01:26:54.399 --> 01:27:03.359
And a lot of people you start to see, they didn't want to see us rise because they didn't want anybody looking at them.
01:27:03.600 --> 01:27:06.800
So it was so easy for them to point the finger at us.
01:27:07.039 --> 01:27:07.840
Oh, yeah.
01:27:08.079 --> 01:27:08.319
Yep.
01:27:08.560 --> 01:27:09.920
We were like a scapegoat.
01:27:10.079 --> 01:27:15.359
Yeah, I think encouragement is is great at any point in time, just in general.
01:27:15.600 --> 01:27:18.800
I mean, I look at people like they have an invisible backpack.
01:27:18.880 --> 01:27:20.640
I don't know what you're going through.
01:27:20.880 --> 01:27:24.880
I'm not gonna make things worse for you, unless you fuck with me.
01:27:24.960 --> 01:27:29.039
Yeah, and then you're getting a destruction ritual uh in the boostel.
01:27:29.680 --> 01:27:42.479
But but with that, really, it's just that's why they have the sponsors and the sponsees, you have somebody to talk to, then your friends group, because that is your your friend group is gonna change.
01:27:42.720 --> 01:27:46.800
Just like my I cannot hang with this person anymore.
01:27:47.520 --> 01:27:55.600
And my friend OD'd, and I was a Paul Bear for him, and I couldn't talk to him the last few months of his life because of the addiction.
01:27:56.399 --> 01:27:57.760
And these things happen.
01:27:58.239 --> 01:27:59.760
So it's just important look.
01:28:00.159 --> 01:28:01.359
Be your own best friend.
01:28:01.520 --> 01:28:03.279
And I think that's the key.
01:28:03.439 --> 01:28:09.760
And the toughest thing, especially with environments we're brought up in, be your own best friend.
01:28:10.079 --> 01:28:15.199
Read books, or do the hobbies that you like to do, whether it's the photography.
01:28:15.520 --> 01:28:22.640
And know that above paying your bills, you're gonna be no happier.
01:28:23.119 --> 01:28:25.840
It's the illusion of like, oh, I'll buy this and buy that.
01:28:26.000 --> 01:28:26.319
No.
01:28:26.479 --> 01:28:30.399
If your basic means are not happiness, is a choice.
01:28:30.640 --> 01:28:32.399
We have shitty things come up.
01:28:32.640 --> 01:28:37.600
I know any any of these substances is gonna make it worse.
01:28:38.239 --> 01:28:40.640
And and feelings are okay to feel.
01:28:40.880 --> 01:28:43.840
And it's good to read books by Dr.
01:28:43.920 --> 01:28:44.880
Robert Green.
01:28:45.359 --> 01:28:46.319
That's great.
01:28:46.560 --> 01:28:52.399
Even though young Robert Shirley's not a big fan of the stoicism, I highly recommend it.
01:28:52.880 --> 01:28:56.399
And then go read Hell Has Windows or else.
01:28:56.640 --> 01:29:02.000
You know, so just I think it's the positivity of having a good group.
01:29:02.239 --> 01:29:06.640
And I feel like I have that in my life and for myself.
01:29:06.960 --> 01:29:11.439
Yeah, it was definitely hard to change my whole entire friend group.
01:29:11.520 --> 01:29:15.840
It, you know, because I was hanging out with these people before I was doing anything.
01:29:16.079 --> 01:29:19.600
They were doing their shit, but I just kind of live my own life.
01:29:19.840 --> 01:29:30.880
And once I started doing it with them, I would always get the, oh, well, let's just do it, you know, on the weekends, or every once in a while, you know, when we're we want to have a good time.
01:29:31.039 --> 01:29:34.079
And it's like, man, do you not realize that that never works?
01:29:34.239 --> 01:29:41.920
You may start off doing it every Saturday, but it's gonna quickly go into every Saturday and Sunday, and then it's gonna be all week, and then that's what your whole life is.
01:29:42.159 --> 01:29:45.840
So I had to unfortunately, and it still sucks.
01:29:46.079 --> 01:29:52.880
And I'm glad I did it, but I can't say that I'm proud, you know, to basically tell all your friends to go fuck themselves.
01:29:52.960 --> 01:29:54.159
You want nothing to do with them anymore.
01:29:54.479 --> 01:29:58.800
If they get cleaned, then then you can uh rebuild that relationship.
01:29:59.039 --> 01:30:02.000
Now I just surround myself with people like you guys.
01:30:02.640 --> 01:30:06.960
Some amazing stories of what you went through and recovery.
01:30:07.279 --> 01:30:09.279
Thank you guys so much for sharing those.
01:30:09.439 --> 01:30:12.640
It means a lot to me personally that you were willing to come and do this.
01:30:13.039 --> 01:30:17.439
You know, especially that it it's and it gives you a platform to get your voices out there.
01:30:17.520 --> 01:30:21.199
And it's I I'm I'm feeling very grateful for that.
01:30:21.600 --> 01:30:38.159
When when you sent out the message, you know, I saw your I think it was on Facebook, you know, I quickly sent you a text right away and said, dude, I I'll be more than happy to be on there, you know, because I mean one of you guys said it, you know, you you never know what somebody else is going through.
01:30:38.720 --> 01:30:42.560
So you know, sharing your story may help somebody.
01:30:43.119 --> 01:30:46.720
Yeah, and I'm completely grateful that the three of you guys stepped up.
01:30:46.880 --> 01:30:49.760
So from the bottom of my heart, thank you so much.
01:30:50.479 --> 01:30:52.640
Where can where can we thank you?
01:30:52.880 --> 01:30:55.359
Where can we find you guys now?
01:30:55.680 --> 01:31:00.640
And uh especially Jimmy, really interested to know what you're up to these days.
01:31:00.720 --> 01:31:03.359
Uh, you're an unknown commodity to us.
01:31:03.520 --> 01:31:05.520
So uh where can we find you online?
01:31:05.600 --> 01:31:08.239
Are you doing anything interesting that we might want to check out?
01:31:08.560 --> 01:31:10.720
I'm actually very boring right now.
01:31:11.119 --> 01:31:18.239
I just right now, my life is just basically it's just it's just work school and then um laundry, Costco, Walmart.
01:31:18.640 --> 01:31:20.239
So you're on a reality show.
01:31:22.239 --> 01:31:23.600
This is awesome.
01:31:24.720 --> 01:31:28.560
Jimmy will be the first guest we don't have back for any reason, I guess.
01:31:30.560 --> 01:31:31.680
No, just wait.
01:31:31.840 --> 01:31:33.439
Wait till he gets his degrees.
01:31:33.680 --> 01:31:36.880
I know, and he'll definitely he'll run his own thing for sure.
01:31:37.199 --> 01:31:39.119
I'm on Facebook, I'm on Instagram.
01:31:39.199 --> 01:31:40.239
You guys are awesome.
01:31:40.399 --> 01:31:43.119
Uh Frankie, I've actually spoken to you on Facebook.
01:31:43.279 --> 01:31:51.359
My wife and I were in Salem, and I was gonna go see you in that guitar store you were playing a show, but um, it just it didn't it didn't pan out.
01:31:51.600 --> 01:31:52.960
No, no worries at all.
01:31:53.119 --> 01:31:54.319
Yeah, good stuff.
01:31:54.640 --> 01:31:55.039
Same.
01:31:55.199 --> 01:32:04.720
I'm on Facebook, Instagram, the uh Midnight Signal podcast, like you said, Robert, uh Skogan Outdoors podcast with another uh close friend.
01:32:04.960 --> 01:32:08.720
So they're all on Facebook and actually Instagram as well.
01:32:08.880 --> 01:32:14.239
You guys all have my number, you know, people can reach me anyway, pretty much.
01:32:14.640 --> 01:32:18.079
Uh you guys can catch me on Instagram, Facebook.
01:32:18.159 --> 01:32:19.600
You know, I'm a really shy person.
01:32:19.760 --> 01:32:22.319
King Frankie Hollywood on Instagram.
01:32:22.560 --> 01:32:23.039
Very modest.
01:32:26.479 --> 01:32:27.680
Very shy person.
01:32:30.079 --> 01:32:31.520
My show melted.
01:32:31.760 --> 01:32:35.439
I appreciate all the support as far as especially with this stuff.
01:32:35.760 --> 01:32:40.000
So this really, Robert, has been one of the best meetings I've ever been to.
01:32:40.079 --> 01:32:42.239
So thank you, Mikey, Jimmy.
01:32:42.399 --> 01:32:43.359
So this is great.
01:32:43.760 --> 01:32:44.880
Yes, it was a lot of fun.
01:32:44.960 --> 01:32:51.359
It's Frankie, you said earlier, we all have emotions, we all have feelings, and most meetings I can sit by and just talk about shit.
01:32:51.439 --> 01:32:52.880
I just don't, I don't care.
01:32:52.960 --> 01:33:02.319
You know, I'll happily tell my story, but sitting here with people that you know we share a lot in common, it it was hard, you know, but very enjoyable and glad to be a part of it.
01:33:02.479 --> 01:33:05.279
No, thank you again ever so much.
01:33:05.600 --> 01:33:11.920
I always like to have repeat guests on my show, so uh you know that I'll invite all of you back at one point or another.
01:33:12.319 --> 01:33:15.840
And until the next time we get to talk, hail Satan.
01:33:16.000 --> 01:33:16.720
Hail Satan.
01:33:16.880 --> 01:33:18.720
Hail Satan, hail Satan.
01:33:19.359 --> 01:33:23.359
And that's gonna wrap it up for this episode of the Neutral Wisdom Podcast.
01:33:23.439 --> 01:33:28.079
I'd like to thank all of you for listening and a huge thank you to our panel for being here today.
01:33:28.319 --> 01:33:30.640
Please drop a like or a comment down below.
01:33:30.800 --> 01:33:35.920
For questions or comments, you can email me directly at information at neutral wisdom.ca.
01:33:36.640 --> 01:33:43.439
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01:33:43.600 --> 01:33:47.359
A like and subscribe go a long way in pushing this podcast out.
01:33:47.600 --> 01:33:53.279
Check me out on Facebook under Robert Shirley, and check out Instagram at neutral underscore wisdom.
01:33:53.439 --> 01:33:56.640
And be sure to visit the website at neutralwisdom.ca.
01:33:57.920 --> 01:34:03.920
And don't forget to check out my books Neutral Wisdom, Hell Has Windows, and Unapologetic.
01:34:04.159 --> 01:34:10.319
Published by Darkmoon Press and available now at Amazon.com in print and Kindle formats.
01:34:10.479 --> 01:34:13.039
Until next time, ever forward.
01:34:19.520 --> 01:34:22.720
You have been listening to the Neutral Wisdom Podcast.
01:34:22.880 --> 01:34:32.880
For more information, email us at information at neutralwisdom.ca, Facebook under Robert Shirley, or Instagram at neutral underscore wisdom.
01:34:33.279 --> 01:34:36.960
Also, check out our website at neutralwisdom.ca.
01:34:37.680 --> 01:34:40.239
Program copyrighted 2026.
01:34:40.640 --> 01:34:42.800
Devilish Gentleman Enterprises.