Justin Dorfman: All right, James, welcome to the Micro Collector podcast. I'm super excited to have you on today.
James: Thank you so much for the invitation, Justin. I've been watching a lot of your videos, so very excited to be here.
Justin Dorfman: Absolutely. Well, I'm excited. I think I was just telling you before this that I grew up in Hong Kong and I came across your brand first of all seeing the beautiful watches that you guys have have created in the Microbrands Book and as I was reading a little bit of the background in that book I noticed that you guys are from Hong Kong from my hometown and it's really exciting to see you know brands like yourself come on the scene and really
James: you
Justin Dorfman: bring Hong Kong watchmaking to the scene as well. So very excited to hear the story behind the brand today.
James: Thank you so much. I am James, the co-founder of Nectere Watches have another partner called Tony. He's also the co-founder the brand. So the company is just basically two of us. So a controlled size of brand and we are very new. ⁓ As you said, we just launched our Kickstarter campaign last year. So yeah, we're happy to share more stories and insights with guys.
Justin Dorfman: Great, great. Well, why don't we take a step back and learn a little bit maybe about your background and your co-founder's background. It sounds like I did a little bit of research and I understand that you guys go way back even to ⁓ childhood, So maybe tell us a little bit about how you guys met ⁓ and how you came to start a watch company together.
James: you Okay, so Tony and myself, are both primary schoolmates. ⁓ we've been knowing each other for more than 25 years since grade six, grade seven. And have always been good friends. we've been connected even after we graduated, but we both a passion about watches. And ⁓ coincidentally, ⁓ We both have our own career path, but somehow it's always related to the watch industry. So Tony has been working for a few Swiss watch brands in Hong Kong. He has also worked for ⁓ watch trading platforms. And I started my career as a digital marketer. ⁓ And then... there was an opportunity to be one of the first members of a watch brand in Hong Kong, which is called Undone, a customizable watch brand. ⁓ been working for Undone ⁓ a few years. They me a lot about watches, ⁓ about a digital brand. So basically all passions... about watches came from Undone and also all the media partners, all the influencers that I got to met because of Undone. basically that's the starting of how Tony and are passionate about watches. ⁓
Justin Dorfman: And where did the idea come from? Had it been something that you guys had discussed for a while and then finally got to a point where you're like, listen, let's do this thing? how did it come to be?
James: I think ⁓ and myself, ⁓ both really wanted to have a brand that truly represents what we like. ⁓ we always have this idea of doing something together, not about watches, because at first we were thinking about launching an app, we were about doing clothing brands, so we had a lot of ideas. But then I think a few years ago, saw that there is an opportunity in the ⁓ markets. We see that there's a lot brands coming out from Asia, especially in Hong Kong. ⁓ And we had connections in the watch industry. We kind of know how to launch a brand on Kickstarter. So this is also very way to do a brand. ⁓ So decided to put something on to see how it works. ⁓ And ⁓ if it goes well, we continue do it. But if it doesn't, it won't hurt our pocket that much. So that's how it started. ⁓
Justin Dorfman: Yeah, I think Kickstarter has really made the idea of starting your own watch brand, even beyond watches, right? Other products as well. But I think specifically in the watch industry, it's really opened up the door to that, right? Because I think it, first of all, from a sort of capital perspective, it allows you to get access to funds to produce these watches, right? And... ⁓
James: Right.
Justin Dorfman: also create that demand in that community that then you could first of all test the idea but then launch into. So I could see how Kickstarter was a great sort of entry point for you guys when it came to your watch. Maybe tell us a little bit about the first watch that you guys launched. So I think it's called Order from Chaos, right? And it's a very interesting looking watch. I think that's what caught my attention. It's not, you know, the usual round Welcome to The Micro Collector, a podcast where I talk with the founders and operators behind some of the most exciting microbrands and independent watch companies. I'm your host, Justin Dorfman, and in today's episode, I'm joined by James Wong, co-founder of Nectere Watches, a new Hong Kong-based microbrand, creating thoughtful, unconventional watches with real meaning behind the design. In this conversation,
James: Right.
Justin Dorfman: or even square watch, right? It's got a very unique shape. And I also noticed that there's a lot of really interesting details on the case, on the dial of the watch, and there's maybe some meaning behind that. So why don't you tell us a little bit about how that idea came to be. We talk about James and his co-founder Tony's 25 year friendship, the inspiration behind their first collection, Order from Chaos, and how ideas like chaos theory, the butterfly effect, and the abstract nature of time shaped the watch itself.
James: So ⁓ the inspiration really started with bit of an irony because ⁓ we noticed within the watch ⁓ there's a lot of people very obsessed over mechanics ⁓ and the craftsmanship of time. very few people around us actually a step back to think about ⁓ the concept of time itself. ⁓ So the truth is the way we measure time is a very artificial construct made by humans. we try to capture it on our wrist, but none of us actually own the concept of time, Because it's an artificial concept. So I've been very fascinated by a physicist ⁓ called Carlo So he ⁓ wrote a called Illusion of Time. So it's a very and very...
Justin Dorfman: we also get into the realities of bringing an unusual design to life, why they chose the Seagull ST17 hand wound movement, what they learned from a successful Kickstarter campaign, how they navigated tariffs and fulfillment. and why Hong Kong is becoming such an exciting place for new watch brands. If you enjoy the episode, be sure to subscribe for more conversations with the people behind these incredible watch brands. And with that, please enjoy my conversation with James Wong of Nectere watches.
James: knowledgeable but at the same time it serves a very great to me, as in the time isn't ⁓ a ⁓ ticking universal line, ⁓ so doesn't have any direction. So that's the inspiration how we wanted to do ⁓ an irregular watch. So as you have read some of the content online, we actually reference the idea of chaos theory. which is also the beating heart of our first collection called Order from Chaos. So the chaos theory gave me a very different perspective of how unpredictable our lives are. ⁓ Especially mentioned about the butterfly effect, like how one small decision can actually everything. So we ⁓ to resonate idea with the visual effect of the asymmetrical case design. as you see, ⁓ are four steps ⁓ the case bezel, ⁓ each of the steps is actually irregular. So with the and the of it is actually different in each layer. So that's how want to resonate idea with a visual design. And ⁓ us, we feel we people to love our watch because ⁓ we wear our watch because ⁓ we want them to serve as daily reminder on your wrist. of where you are in the grand unpredictability of life. So ⁓ is basically the story behind how we want to do the watch. So that's why ⁓ have done ⁓ a chaotic case design, ⁓ which a way, as in ⁓ it turns to be a very unique piece to of our customers. And we have seen a of... people sharing online saying that when they wear this watch, a lot of people on the street will ask them the brand because it's very eye catching and somehow it looks very different from ⁓ normal shaped watches.
Justin Dorfman: Yeah, I mean that's what stood out to me as well. It was the shape of the watch, but then as you look at it, there's these details. As you said, there's sort of that ripple effect of ⁓ the I also noticed ⁓ that ⁓ the are sort of hidden behind the case a little bit, or it's almost like there are no lugs to the as well. ⁓ And I noticed this really interesting shaped open case back window, right, where you can see the movement. ⁓ It seems like it's one of those watches that you ⁓ of get in it immediately upon looking at it, but probably continue to discover details for a long time you continue wearing it ⁓ and sort admiring it on your wrist. Even the dial, I has some really interesting details as well. Was that hard to find a manufacturer that would
James: you
Justin Dorfman: sort of, I guess, go along with that vision, right? Because I can imagine manufacturers, you know, when it comes to round watches or your standard sort of dive design or pilot design, right? Things that have ⁓ been many, many times before, it's much for them. But when it comes to something that's so unique, there's custom tooling and all kinds of things. Was it hard to find somebody to sort of take that on?
James: I think for the manufacturing point of it not difficult to source a factory manufacturer to work on this project. ⁓ But ⁓ I think most importantly is how accurate ⁓ do you want to be? As in a of in China, they are very, They're very skilled and they know how to do watches in a very quick way. So we kind of need to ⁓ that balance of the deadlines, but at the same time delivering good qualities, right? ⁓ So it us quite a lot of time to do the sampling. We did a few rounds of ⁓ 3D printing and then also on the ⁓ actual case the dimension, as as how many steps that we actually want. ⁓ So I think is not a difficult part, but I think all the sampling is the most struggling part for us because it took us at least eight to 10 months to develop the final prototype. And I think it's normal because we are doing something that not a lot of factories are doing. But it is also a great news for us because we also understand the capabilities of the factories in China. They are actually very skilled and they very good at doing new things as long as you have the time and patience to try it with them.
Justin Dorfman: that's super interesting actually. So what it sounds like is it wasn't so hard to find a manufacturer, but going from let's design that's on paper or ⁓ digital design to that product coming out looking the way that you want it to look and that sort of transition from digital format to physical format is where there was a lot of iterations, ⁓ which is a really interesting I also noticed that you guys chose a Seagull movement, right? I think the ST17. ⁓ I'm starting to see more more Seagull movements, especially in the microbrand space. It seems like they're really gaining traction. Traditionally, I think we saw a lot of Miyotas and Seikos and then in Switzerland, like Sellitas right? now Seagull's starting to gain popularity.
James: Right.
Justin Dorfman: ⁓ Was that a movement that from the very beginning you knew that you wanted to use or was that something that along the way you discovered was the right movement for this particular watch? And what was sort of the reasoning deciding that that's the movement that you guys wanted to use?
James: you Right. So the logic behind picking this movement is we actually worked ⁓ ⁓ at we have an idea of ⁓ doing dress watch, but ⁓ we really to for the ⁓ super thin thickness. if I want to a ⁓ mechanical watch, the choice quite ⁓ because I have to balance out the cost and also the functionality of the movement. at first I didn't even consider about using a Swiss movement ⁓ even a Japanese movement is because of the thickness ⁓ also because of the cost. Because have a very bright idea ⁓ or objectives ⁓ that need to launch on Kickstarter. ⁓ So the point can't be that high. So that's why we explore ⁓ Chinese movements. then I think Seagull is also a very famous movement supplier. from ⁓ past years, I think ⁓ there's a of brands, even ⁓ brands from countries, overseas brand or middle-sized brands, they also use Seagull movements. So we decided to go with Seagull. But also there are... Before picking the movement, we understand that there is a misconception of Chinese movement. People feel like movement must be cheap. ⁓ might not be that durable. So ⁓ before go into production, ⁓ we set up a system ⁓ of to do the quality check on the movement. ⁓ So ⁓ the get ⁓ assembled in China, ⁓ we Me, myself and Tony, we actually flew to China and then ⁓ checked every single movement ⁓ try to minimize ⁓ percentage of ⁓ a faulty movement. Of course, we cannot 100 %... We cannot 100 % avoid this issue, but we try our best to do the quality check to minimize the percentage. So, I mean, it worked well. ⁓ mean, so far, I think we only have ⁓ little complaints on the movements, basically the... Because I think some of the customers from are not... ⁓ really watch users, they might not be able to differentiate a mechanical watch and a quartz movement. we have some ⁓ giving us feedback, ⁓ I think ⁓ 95 % of them are happy with the movement. ⁓
Justin Dorfman: Yeah, I mean, I've only heard good things about Seagull and ⁓ it's funny earlier today I was actually watching a video Teddy Baldassarre where one of the ones with Kevin O'Leary where they're reviewing a bunch of microbrands and at the end he chooses the winner. And the amount of ⁓ that are using movements or Chinese movements in general, I think is increasing because The quality issue is a thing of the past. So it's definitely a really good And in terms of manual side of things, I can see a little bit of maybe some education for folks that don't collect watches and ⁓ so on and maybe are more attractive ⁓ to the look of the watch than being a real enthusiast. I think... sort of meaning behind your watch and the focus on time as an abstract concept and then having a watch where every day you get to have that routine of winding it up. It kind of fits the watch in my opinion, not just from a size perspective to keep it nice and thin, but also just ⁓ meaning behind that watch and taking a moment ⁓ do that ritual I think is a good fit for this particular ⁓ We were talking about ⁓ Kickstarter, And you guys had a very successful Kickstarter campaign, know, beat your goal by a mile, right? Were there any, first of all, was that a surprise? Were you surprised how excited and receptive the Kickstarter community was for this watch? And were there any key learnings that you had in that process, you know, on how Kickstarter works and, you know, how to position yourself to have a really successful campaign?
James: you you First of all, ⁓ you. I think it was a great surprise for us because as mentioned, ⁓ the brand just two of us and we have very limited budget on doing marketing on the campaign. And you know, the Kickstarter game has changed a lot ⁓ compared to the days where I still worked in Undone. So ⁓ the budget of ⁓ marketing digital spend ⁓ is actually pretty high compared to what I've learned 10 years ago. So with a very limited budget, ⁓ think that's all we can do. So we actually produced ⁓ pieces of prototypes for ⁓ and media to do unboxing and review for us. ⁓ then we have a very limited budget for digital spend basically on matter itself So I still remember when we first launched the campaign. I think we launched at 10.30pm in Hong Kong last year in ⁓ And then since didn't have an office. ⁓ So ⁓ Tony myself, booked a hotel room to work together. We our laptops to together. And then we decided to ⁓ press the launch button together to celebrate. ⁓ This is launch. That's it. I think we were so nervous that there would be any issues with the setting of the campaign and everything. So I I actually clicked that launch button five minutes earlier than the launch And then instantly got orders coming in right away because we can ⁓ see the numbers on Kickstarter sites. So we were super excited. We kept on seeing the going up. ⁓ So we launched at 10.30pm and then we stayed awake until I think 5am that night. So it was a very exciting but also nervous experience for us. In terms of learning curve, mean, there's a lot of things that I think I could do better. First thing is... When I first set up the campaign, I didn't know there were a limitation on one backer can only get one watch. So when we first launched the campaign, have ⁓ receiving a lot of, WhatsApp People asking me like, James, like, why can't I get more one watch? you have to set this combo ⁓ so people can buy more one. So I think this kind of limited actual results of campaign, but we are already very happy with the result because it's a great start us. And then secondly, in terms of marketing, Since we have little budget and resource, we to put everything in one goal. As in, we have asked all the media partners and influencers ⁓ to for us ⁓ or launch that unboxing video ⁓ on day of launch. And then ⁓ the launch lasts for ⁓ five weeks. So the rest of the four weeks is basically empty. So no one has been posting for us after the launch. So I think that part we can actually do better next time if we have to use the platform again. And also, ⁓ as I is there's only just two of us. We don't have any external helpers or freelancers to help us help us on this project. So the fulfillment is actually quite painful. Especially there was a trade war going on when we first launched the campaign. we were rushing a lot of timelines, like we need to ⁓ we need to out new shipping ⁓ arrangement ⁓ with the orders. I mean, because I ⁓ more than 60 % the orders are from the States. there was a big learning curve. ⁓ But I mean, it's a very good experience. Like now on, ⁓ I we already kind of know all the partners or vendors that we need to work with if ever there is a trade war going on again. ⁓ So ⁓ think are two sides of the story. But most of the experience, I'm quite happy with it.
Justin Dorfman: Yeah, that's really, really interesting. I think there are quite a few key learnings there, especially around, as you said, bundling the products. But also, ⁓ I think lot of people think about building an audience ahead of a launch, right? So that you can activate them for the launch, but then not what comes afterwards, right? So I think that's a really, really interesting learning. And obviously fulfillment as well is probably something that, know, You're so focused on the launch itself that maybe it becomes an afterthought and then you're like, that becomes like a good problem to have, but a problem nonetheless, right? And then the trade war thing, think is just like, what do they call it? A black swan that gets thrown in there for a good measure, right? ⁓ Very cool. I was going to ask about that trade war. I think read somewhere that you guys, ⁓
James: know. ⁓ know. ⁓
Justin Dorfman: the tariffs were announced maybe like a couple weeks before your Kickstarter campaign. What was the solution in the end? Like how did you resolve it in the end?
James: Yeah. when we first launched the Kickstarter campaign, I think the trade war has, as you said, it has already begun, ⁓ then ⁓ got escalated to another level when we launched, when we launched the project. ⁓ ⁓ think the tariff went up to, I 150% or 200%. ⁓ by the time we, launched the project. ⁓ So cause was super nervous about it because as you know, us is the market for Kickstarter campaigns. So I was trying to look out for other manufacturers in Asia for example Taiwan I have actually explored a few factories to do the assembly for us To see if we can have a lower tariff going into ⁓ the states luckily because as you know we are doing pre-orders, right? So we actually need three to four months of time to do the production. ⁓ luckily, right before we ⁓ to do the fulfillment, I actually got a contact with a forwarder in Hong Kong. ⁓ So they in sending products in bulk to the States. But at the same time, you know, ⁓ cause ⁓ we have pay for a tariff. ⁓ So Tony, and I decided to absorb part of the tariff. our customers from Kickstarter, they are the very first supporters of the brand. So we do not mind losing ⁓ to make them feel happy about the product, because we don't want Nectere be a bad shopping experience, especially for such a new brand. ⁓ Cause feel like ⁓ if pay ⁓ $500 dollars online, to an brand and you have to wait for four months ⁓ and it's your hard earned money. Right? So we have to ⁓ somehow give ⁓ better experience. So we absorbed part of the tariff. partnered up with the shipping ⁓ So ship everything in bulk to the States. But during that time, it was very hectic because there were certain that I had to hit. Once I have got the watches, I have to do all the quality check again, ⁓ and I have pack all the watches to the States in dividing them from West Coast and East Coast. And I still remember I have to hit the deadline in I think 48 hours because there was rumors saying that the tariff will be, the trade war situation will be even more escalated after. So. It was crazy and back then we didn't have an office so we have to rent out a small room, just the two of us packing all the watches and make sure we don't mix up the orders because as you know, because we have three colors, right? it's all individually numbered. So if, ⁓ if I ship a watch to a wrong person, that means I ship two watches to two person, right? So ⁓ That's a very hectic, but also I think it's a lifetime. It's a very worthy experience, I would say.
Justin Dorfman: I mean, that's a good way to look at it, right? I think, you know, it's healthy to look at challenges, especially business challenges that way that you're going to have challenges and, you know, ⁓ to count as an experience and something that if hopefully you don't face it again, but if you did do, ⁓ you know that you're able to get around it and, you know, what some of options are. wanted to ask you about sort of Hong Kong as a sort of place for microbrands ⁓ launch, right? Because Hong Kong has always been an important city when it comes the watch industry, right? Not ⁓ a place where brands were born historically, but as a area of manufacturing the early days before manufacturing moved over to China. then since then as a place of commerce, where manufacturing is done in China, but a lot of maybe the businesses that you ⁓ with ⁓ handle that manufacturing are based in Hong Kong, right? And it's obviously also a major trade port as well. ⁓ it's always played a strong role in the manufacturing industry, not, or in the watch industry, but not from a brand perspective. And then now in recent years, I've been really excited to see brands like yours, but also like Monbrey and like Sunrex EONIQ and DIY Watch Club and all these great brands, Selten as well come out of Hong Kong. What do think the reason for that is? there ⁓ something in the water, something going on there that's causing all this entrepreneurial spirit and this eagerness to build ⁓ our own homegrown Hong brands?
James: I think there are a few reasons. First, ⁓ as you said, we have an edge on being very to China, so we have an easier access to manufacturing in China. That's one point. Secondly, I like, because back in the ⁓ 80s or ⁓ 90s, I think you want start out a brand, not even only about watches, but any kind of brand, the opportunity cost is very high. So you have to, know, ⁓ a lot of traditional marketing. ⁓ have to pay a lot of money on print ads ⁓ ⁓ TVCs. the of, and ⁓ cost entry is very high. But then, you ⁓ right now, because social media and especially because of AI as well, the opportunity cost of a brand is very low. ⁓ I think as long as you have the access to manufacture, you have a good design, and maybe you have a computer, you can already start something right away. So I think that's one thing. But then I see a very interesting phenomenon. basically, you know, it has ⁓ a lot power in ⁓ manufacturing. But ⁓ Brands that are created by the factories themselves. Like I see a lot of them on Kickstarter. They kind of really perform as a brand from Hong Kong or brand from other countries. I think it's because in Hong Kong we an international insights. Like we've ⁓ working with of companies or foreign brands ⁓ for a long And ⁓ what we it's little bit different from what they see from the factory. So they may be able to your product, ⁓ somehow... ⁓ they cannot launch a brand by themselves. I mean, even ⁓ you look at Atelier Wen they are really good. I they're really good at manufacturing and marketing ⁓ because take the soul of a ⁓ brand and they partner it up with really good manufacturing partner. ⁓ So that's why it a really good brand. It has great synergy, right? But just from a production point of view, if the factory can ⁓ produce really good quality ⁓ it's not good enough. ⁓ It definitely needs something more ⁓ make it as a brand. So what I've been observing recently. ⁓ And you mentioned, there's a lot of great brands in Hong Kong, especially Selten ⁓ and Monbrey are relatively new brands, but then perform really well in overseas market. So I'm quite excited the local watch scene as well. There are more watch clubs. in Hong Kong right now. Back then, you want to ⁓ a watch event, ⁓ actually pretty difficult. You have to go on Facebook groups and then try organize an offline event. But right now, there are a few ⁓ great clubs, watch communities in Hong Kong. ⁓ And can easily meet people, ⁓ easily the resources that you need. So I that's what I see in Hong Kong. ⁓
Justin Dorfman: Yeah, you know, I was saying to you that I grew up in Hong Kong, so it's really fun to see these brands. And I was at ⁓ Windup San Francisco because now I live in the Bay Area. prior to going to the event, I saw three or four brands that I recognized that were from Hong Kong. And it was really exciting just to go to the show and introduce myself them. ⁓ talk about Hong Kong and get their perspective and very similar to you, know, the reasons why we're seeing such great innovation in the watch space and brand building from Hong Kong. it's really great to see. What can folks expect next from you guys? So you've got your first watch ⁓ out You had a very successful Kickstarter campaign. I'm sure, you know, the appetite for a follow-up model is strong. Can we ⁓ something coming down the pipe in the near future? Will we see you at events in the near future as well? ⁓ Yet what can folks sort of expect coming down the pipe?
James: you We are now preparing a new design based off on the first collection. So it will be an extension of the Order from Chaos collection. So we're going to introduce a new colorway and then we will come up with a bracelet actually. So people can actually pair it up with their own choice of leather straps but it also comes with a bracelet that we spend quite a lot of time developing it. I think we will be releasing more pictures and about the new product in maybe a few weeks. But the ⁓ launch date be around August or September. what we're looking at.
Justin Dorfman: I'm really excited to see what you guys have in store. But ⁓ the meantime, thank you so much for taking the time to with us. If folks want to learn more ⁓ and follow are the best places that they can go to find you guys?
James: think follow us on Instagram, Nectere Watches, and I'm on Instagram, so ⁓ feel to with me. I will see you guys ⁓ on there, and then also preparing a new website. ⁓ We'll be launching it very soon. ⁓
Justin Dorfman: James, thanks again for taking the time and have a great rest of your day over there.
James: Thank you so much, Justin
James: Thank you so much for the invitation, Justin. I've been watching a lot of your videos, so very excited to be here.
Justin Dorfman: Absolutely. Well, I'm excited. I think I was just telling you before this that I grew up in Hong Kong and I came across your brand first of all seeing the beautiful watches that you guys have have created in the Microbrands Book and as I was reading a little bit of the background in that book I noticed that you guys are from Hong Kong from my hometown and it's really exciting to see you know brands like yourself come on the scene and really
James: you
Justin Dorfman: bring Hong Kong watchmaking to the scene as well. So very excited to hear the story behind the brand today.
James: Thank you so much. I am James, the co-founder of Nectere Watches have another partner called Tony. He's also the co-founder the brand. So the company is just basically two of us. So a controlled size of brand and we are very new. ⁓ As you said, we just launched our Kickstarter campaign last year. So yeah, we're happy to share more stories and insights with guys.
Justin Dorfman: Great, great. Well, why don't we take a step back and learn a little bit maybe about your background and your co-founder's background. It sounds like I did a little bit of research and I understand that you guys go way back even to ⁓ childhood, So maybe tell us a little bit about how you guys met ⁓ and how you came to start a watch company together.
James: you Okay, so Tony and myself, are both primary schoolmates. ⁓ we've been knowing each other for more than 25 years since grade six, grade seven. And have always been good friends. we've been connected even after we graduated, but we both a passion about watches. And ⁓ coincidentally, ⁓ We both have our own career path, but somehow it's always related to the watch industry. So Tony has been working for a few Swiss watch brands in Hong Kong. He has also worked for ⁓ watch trading platforms. And I started my career as a digital marketer. ⁓ And then... there was an opportunity to be one of the first members of a watch brand in Hong Kong, which is called Undone, a customizable watch brand. ⁓ been working for Undone ⁓ a few years. They me a lot about watches, ⁓ about a digital brand. So basically all passions... about watches came from Undone and also all the media partners, all the influencers that I got to met because of Undone. basically that's the starting of how Tony and are passionate about watches. ⁓
Justin Dorfman: And where did the idea come from? Had it been something that you guys had discussed for a while and then finally got to a point where you're like, listen, let's do this thing? how did it come to be?
James: I think ⁓ and myself, ⁓ both really wanted to have a brand that truly represents what we like. ⁓ we always have this idea of doing something together, not about watches, because at first we were thinking about launching an app, we were about doing clothing brands, so we had a lot of ideas. But then I think a few years ago, saw that there is an opportunity in the ⁓ markets. We see that there's a lot brands coming out from Asia, especially in Hong Kong. ⁓ And we had connections in the watch industry. We kind of know how to launch a brand on Kickstarter. So this is also very way to do a brand. ⁓ So decided to put something on to see how it works. ⁓ And ⁓ if it goes well, we continue do it. But if it doesn't, it won't hurt our pocket that much. So that's how it started. ⁓
Justin Dorfman: Yeah, I think Kickstarter has really made the idea of starting your own watch brand, even beyond watches, right? Other products as well. But I think specifically in the watch industry, it's really opened up the door to that, right? Because I think it, first of all, from a sort of capital perspective, it allows you to get access to funds to produce these watches, right? And... ⁓
James: Right.
Justin Dorfman: also create that demand in that community that then you could first of all test the idea but then launch into. So I could see how Kickstarter was a great sort of entry point for you guys when it came to your watch. Maybe tell us a little bit about the first watch that you guys launched. So I think it's called Order from Chaos, right? And it's a very interesting looking watch. I think that's what caught my attention. It's not, you know, the usual round Welcome to The Micro Collector, a podcast where I talk with the founders and operators behind some of the most exciting microbrands and independent watch companies. I'm your host, Justin Dorfman, and in today's episode, I'm joined by James Wong, co-founder of Nectere Watches, a new Hong Kong-based microbrand, creating thoughtful, unconventional watches with real meaning behind the design. In this conversation,
James: Right.
Justin Dorfman: or even square watch, right? It's got a very unique shape. And I also noticed that there's a lot of really interesting details on the case, on the dial of the watch, and there's maybe some meaning behind that. So why don't you tell us a little bit about how that idea came to be. We talk about James and his co-founder Tony's 25 year friendship, the inspiration behind their first collection, Order from Chaos, and how ideas like chaos theory, the butterfly effect, and the abstract nature of time shaped the watch itself.
James: So ⁓ the inspiration really started with bit of an irony because ⁓ we noticed within the watch ⁓ there's a lot of people very obsessed over mechanics ⁓ and the craftsmanship of time. very few people around us actually a step back to think about ⁓ the concept of time itself. ⁓ So the truth is the way we measure time is a very artificial construct made by humans. we try to capture it on our wrist, but none of us actually own the concept of time, Because it's an artificial concept. So I've been very fascinated by a physicist ⁓ called Carlo So he ⁓ wrote a called Illusion of Time. So it's a very and very...
Justin Dorfman: we also get into the realities of bringing an unusual design to life, why they chose the Seagull ST17 hand wound movement, what they learned from a successful Kickstarter campaign, how they navigated tariffs and fulfillment. and why Hong Kong is becoming such an exciting place for new watch brands. If you enjoy the episode, be sure to subscribe for more conversations with the people behind these incredible watch brands. And with that, please enjoy my conversation with James Wong of Nectere watches.
James: knowledgeable but at the same time it serves a very great to me, as in the time isn't ⁓ a ⁓ ticking universal line, ⁓ so doesn't have any direction. So that's the inspiration how we wanted to do ⁓ an irregular watch. So as you have read some of the content online, we actually reference the idea of chaos theory. which is also the beating heart of our first collection called Order from Chaos. So the chaos theory gave me a very different perspective of how unpredictable our lives are. ⁓ Especially mentioned about the butterfly effect, like how one small decision can actually everything. So we ⁓ to resonate idea with the visual effect of the asymmetrical case design. as you see, ⁓ are four steps ⁓ the case bezel, ⁓ each of the steps is actually irregular. So with the and the of it is actually different in each layer. So that's how want to resonate idea with a visual design. And ⁓ us, we feel we people to love our watch because ⁓ we wear our watch because ⁓ we want them to serve as daily reminder on your wrist. of where you are in the grand unpredictability of life. So ⁓ is basically the story behind how we want to do the watch. So that's why ⁓ have done ⁓ a chaotic case design, ⁓ which a way, as in ⁓ it turns to be a very unique piece to of our customers. And we have seen a of... people sharing online saying that when they wear this watch, a lot of people on the street will ask them the brand because it's very eye catching and somehow it looks very different from ⁓ normal shaped watches.
Justin Dorfman: Yeah, I mean that's what stood out to me as well. It was the shape of the watch, but then as you look at it, there's these details. As you said, there's sort of that ripple effect of ⁓ the I also noticed ⁓ that ⁓ the are sort of hidden behind the case a little bit, or it's almost like there are no lugs to the as well. ⁓ And I noticed this really interesting shaped open case back window, right, where you can see the movement. ⁓ It seems like it's one of those watches that you ⁓ of get in it immediately upon looking at it, but probably continue to discover details for a long time you continue wearing it ⁓ and sort admiring it on your wrist. Even the dial, I has some really interesting details as well. Was that hard to find a manufacturer that would
James: you
Justin Dorfman: sort of, I guess, go along with that vision, right? Because I can imagine manufacturers, you know, when it comes to round watches or your standard sort of dive design or pilot design, right? Things that have ⁓ been many, many times before, it's much for them. But when it comes to something that's so unique, there's custom tooling and all kinds of things. Was it hard to find somebody to sort of take that on?
James: I think for the manufacturing point of it not difficult to source a factory manufacturer to work on this project. ⁓ But ⁓ I think most importantly is how accurate ⁓ do you want to be? As in a of in China, they are very, They're very skilled and they know how to do watches in a very quick way. So we kind of need to ⁓ that balance of the deadlines, but at the same time delivering good qualities, right? ⁓ So it us quite a lot of time to do the sampling. We did a few rounds of ⁓ 3D printing and then also on the ⁓ actual case the dimension, as as how many steps that we actually want. ⁓ So I think is not a difficult part, but I think all the sampling is the most struggling part for us because it took us at least eight to 10 months to develop the final prototype. And I think it's normal because we are doing something that not a lot of factories are doing. But it is also a great news for us because we also understand the capabilities of the factories in China. They are actually very skilled and they very good at doing new things as long as you have the time and patience to try it with them.
Justin Dorfman: that's super interesting actually. So what it sounds like is it wasn't so hard to find a manufacturer, but going from let's design that's on paper or ⁓ digital design to that product coming out looking the way that you want it to look and that sort of transition from digital format to physical format is where there was a lot of iterations, ⁓ which is a really interesting I also noticed that you guys chose a Seagull movement, right? I think the ST17. ⁓ I'm starting to see more more Seagull movements, especially in the microbrand space. It seems like they're really gaining traction. Traditionally, I think we saw a lot of Miyotas and Seikos and then in Switzerland, like Sellitas right? now Seagull's starting to gain popularity.
James: Right.
Justin Dorfman: ⁓ Was that a movement that from the very beginning you knew that you wanted to use or was that something that along the way you discovered was the right movement for this particular watch? And what was sort of the reasoning deciding that that's the movement that you guys wanted to use?
James: you Right. So the logic behind picking this movement is we actually worked ⁓ ⁓ at we have an idea of ⁓ doing dress watch, but ⁓ we really to for the ⁓ super thin thickness. if I want to a ⁓ mechanical watch, the choice quite ⁓ because I have to balance out the cost and also the functionality of the movement. at first I didn't even consider about using a Swiss movement ⁓ even a Japanese movement is because of the thickness ⁓ also because of the cost. Because have a very bright idea ⁓ or objectives ⁓ that need to launch on Kickstarter. ⁓ So the point can't be that high. So that's why we explore ⁓ Chinese movements. then I think Seagull is also a very famous movement supplier. from ⁓ past years, I think ⁓ there's a of brands, even ⁓ brands from countries, overseas brand or middle-sized brands, they also use Seagull movements. So we decided to go with Seagull. But also there are... Before picking the movement, we understand that there is a misconception of Chinese movement. People feel like movement must be cheap. ⁓ might not be that durable. So ⁓ before go into production, ⁓ we set up a system ⁓ of to do the quality check on the movement. ⁓ So ⁓ the get ⁓ assembled in China, ⁓ we Me, myself and Tony, we actually flew to China and then ⁓ checked every single movement ⁓ try to minimize ⁓ percentage of ⁓ a faulty movement. Of course, we cannot 100 %... We cannot 100 % avoid this issue, but we try our best to do the quality check to minimize the percentage. So, I mean, it worked well. ⁓ mean, so far, I think we only have ⁓ little complaints on the movements, basically the... Because I think some of the customers from are not... ⁓ really watch users, they might not be able to differentiate a mechanical watch and a quartz movement. we have some ⁓ giving us feedback, ⁓ I think ⁓ 95 % of them are happy with the movement. ⁓
Justin Dorfman: Yeah, I mean, I've only heard good things about Seagull and ⁓ it's funny earlier today I was actually watching a video Teddy Baldassarre where one of the ones with Kevin O'Leary where they're reviewing a bunch of microbrands and at the end he chooses the winner. And the amount of ⁓ that are using movements or Chinese movements in general, I think is increasing because The quality issue is a thing of the past. So it's definitely a really good And in terms of manual side of things, I can see a little bit of maybe some education for folks that don't collect watches and ⁓ so on and maybe are more attractive ⁓ to the look of the watch than being a real enthusiast. I think... sort of meaning behind your watch and the focus on time as an abstract concept and then having a watch where every day you get to have that routine of winding it up. It kind of fits the watch in my opinion, not just from a size perspective to keep it nice and thin, but also just ⁓ meaning behind that watch and taking a moment ⁓ do that ritual I think is a good fit for this particular ⁓ We were talking about ⁓ Kickstarter, And you guys had a very successful Kickstarter campaign, know, beat your goal by a mile, right? Were there any, first of all, was that a surprise? Were you surprised how excited and receptive the Kickstarter community was for this watch? And were there any key learnings that you had in that process, you know, on how Kickstarter works and, you know, how to position yourself to have a really successful campaign?
James: you you First of all, ⁓ you. I think it was a great surprise for us because as mentioned, ⁓ the brand just two of us and we have very limited budget on doing marketing on the campaign. And you know, the Kickstarter game has changed a lot ⁓ compared to the days where I still worked in Undone. So ⁓ the budget of ⁓ marketing digital spend ⁓ is actually pretty high compared to what I've learned 10 years ago. So with a very limited budget, ⁓ think that's all we can do. So we actually produced ⁓ pieces of prototypes for ⁓ and media to do unboxing and review for us. ⁓ then we have a very limited budget for digital spend basically on matter itself So I still remember when we first launched the campaign. I think we launched at 10.30pm in Hong Kong last year in ⁓ And then since didn't have an office. ⁓ So ⁓ Tony myself, booked a hotel room to work together. We our laptops to together. And then we decided to ⁓ press the launch button together to celebrate. ⁓ This is launch. That's it. I think we were so nervous that there would be any issues with the setting of the campaign and everything. So I I actually clicked that launch button five minutes earlier than the launch And then instantly got orders coming in right away because we can ⁓ see the numbers on Kickstarter sites. So we were super excited. We kept on seeing the going up. ⁓ So we launched at 10.30pm and then we stayed awake until I think 5am that night. So it was a very exciting but also nervous experience for us. In terms of learning curve, mean, there's a lot of things that I think I could do better. First thing is... When I first set up the campaign, I didn't know there were a limitation on one backer can only get one watch. So when we first launched the campaign, have ⁓ receiving a lot of, WhatsApp People asking me like, James, like, why can't I get more one watch? you have to set this combo ⁓ so people can buy more one. So I think this kind of limited actual results of campaign, but we are already very happy with the result because it's a great start us. And then secondly, in terms of marketing, Since we have little budget and resource, we to put everything in one goal. As in, we have asked all the media partners and influencers ⁓ to for us ⁓ or launch that unboxing video ⁓ on day of launch. And then ⁓ the launch lasts for ⁓ five weeks. So the rest of the four weeks is basically empty. So no one has been posting for us after the launch. So I think that part we can actually do better next time if we have to use the platform again. And also, ⁓ as I is there's only just two of us. We don't have any external helpers or freelancers to help us help us on this project. So the fulfillment is actually quite painful. Especially there was a trade war going on when we first launched the campaign. we were rushing a lot of timelines, like we need to ⁓ we need to out new shipping ⁓ arrangement ⁓ with the orders. I mean, because I ⁓ more than 60 % the orders are from the States. there was a big learning curve. ⁓ But I mean, it's a very good experience. Like now on, ⁓ I we already kind of know all the partners or vendors that we need to work with if ever there is a trade war going on again. ⁓ So ⁓ think are two sides of the story. But most of the experience, I'm quite happy with it.
Justin Dorfman: Yeah, that's really, really interesting. I think there are quite a few key learnings there, especially around, as you said, bundling the products. But also, ⁓ I think lot of people think about building an audience ahead of a launch, right? So that you can activate them for the launch, but then not what comes afterwards, right? So I think that's a really, really interesting learning. And obviously fulfillment as well is probably something that, know, You're so focused on the launch itself that maybe it becomes an afterthought and then you're like, that becomes like a good problem to have, but a problem nonetheless, right? And then the trade war thing, think is just like, what do they call it? A black swan that gets thrown in there for a good measure, right? ⁓ Very cool. I was going to ask about that trade war. I think read somewhere that you guys, ⁓
James: know. ⁓ know. ⁓
Justin Dorfman: the tariffs were announced maybe like a couple weeks before your Kickstarter campaign. What was the solution in the end? Like how did you resolve it in the end?
James: Yeah. when we first launched the Kickstarter campaign, I think the trade war has, as you said, it has already begun, ⁓ then ⁓ got escalated to another level when we launched, when we launched the project. ⁓ ⁓ think the tariff went up to, I 150% or 200%. ⁓ by the time we, launched the project. ⁓ So cause was super nervous about it because as you know, us is the market for Kickstarter campaigns. So I was trying to look out for other manufacturers in Asia for example Taiwan I have actually explored a few factories to do the assembly for us To see if we can have a lower tariff going into ⁓ the states luckily because as you know we are doing pre-orders, right? So we actually need three to four months of time to do the production. ⁓ luckily, right before we ⁓ to do the fulfillment, I actually got a contact with a forwarder in Hong Kong. ⁓ So they in sending products in bulk to the States. But at the same time, you know, ⁓ cause ⁓ we have pay for a tariff. ⁓ So Tony, and I decided to absorb part of the tariff. our customers from Kickstarter, they are the very first supporters of the brand. So we do not mind losing ⁓ to make them feel happy about the product, because we don't want Nectere be a bad shopping experience, especially for such a new brand. ⁓ Cause feel like ⁓ if pay ⁓ $500 dollars online, to an brand and you have to wait for four months ⁓ and it's your hard earned money. Right? So we have to ⁓ somehow give ⁓ better experience. So we absorbed part of the tariff. partnered up with the shipping ⁓ So ship everything in bulk to the States. But during that time, it was very hectic because there were certain that I had to hit. Once I have got the watches, I have to do all the quality check again, ⁓ and I have pack all the watches to the States in dividing them from West Coast and East Coast. And I still remember I have to hit the deadline in I think 48 hours because there was rumors saying that the tariff will be, the trade war situation will be even more escalated after. So. It was crazy and back then we didn't have an office so we have to rent out a small room, just the two of us packing all the watches and make sure we don't mix up the orders because as you know, because we have three colors, right? it's all individually numbered. So if, ⁓ if I ship a watch to a wrong person, that means I ship two watches to two person, right? So ⁓ That's a very hectic, but also I think it's a lifetime. It's a very worthy experience, I would say.
Justin Dorfman: I mean, that's a good way to look at it, right? I think, you know, it's healthy to look at challenges, especially business challenges that way that you're going to have challenges and, you know, ⁓ to count as an experience and something that if hopefully you don't face it again, but if you did do, ⁓ you know that you're able to get around it and, you know, what some of options are. wanted to ask you about sort of Hong Kong as a sort of place for microbrands ⁓ launch, right? Because Hong Kong has always been an important city when it comes the watch industry, right? Not ⁓ a place where brands were born historically, but as a area of manufacturing the early days before manufacturing moved over to China. then since then as a place of commerce, where manufacturing is done in China, but a lot of maybe the businesses that you ⁓ with ⁓ handle that manufacturing are based in Hong Kong, right? And it's obviously also a major trade port as well. ⁓ it's always played a strong role in the manufacturing industry, not, or in the watch industry, but not from a brand perspective. And then now in recent years, I've been really excited to see brands like yours, but also like Monbrey and like Sunrex EONIQ and DIY Watch Club and all these great brands, Selten as well come out of Hong Kong. What do think the reason for that is? there ⁓ something in the water, something going on there that's causing all this entrepreneurial spirit and this eagerness to build ⁓ our own homegrown Hong brands?
James: I think there are a few reasons. First, ⁓ as you said, we have an edge on being very to China, so we have an easier access to manufacturing in China. That's one point. Secondly, I like, because back in the ⁓ 80s or ⁓ 90s, I think you want start out a brand, not even only about watches, but any kind of brand, the opportunity cost is very high. So you have to, know, ⁓ a lot of traditional marketing. ⁓ have to pay a lot of money on print ads ⁓ ⁓ TVCs. the of, and ⁓ cost entry is very high. But then, you ⁓ right now, because social media and especially because of AI as well, the opportunity cost of a brand is very low. ⁓ I think as long as you have the access to manufacture, you have a good design, and maybe you have a computer, you can already start something right away. So I think that's one thing. But then I see a very interesting phenomenon. basically, you know, it has ⁓ a lot power in ⁓ manufacturing. But ⁓ Brands that are created by the factories themselves. Like I see a lot of them on Kickstarter. They kind of really perform as a brand from Hong Kong or brand from other countries. I think it's because in Hong Kong we an international insights. Like we've ⁓ working with of companies or foreign brands ⁓ for a long And ⁓ what we it's little bit different from what they see from the factory. So they may be able to your product, ⁓ somehow... ⁓ they cannot launch a brand by themselves. I mean, even ⁓ you look at Atelier Wen they are really good. I they're really good at manufacturing and marketing ⁓ because take the soul of a ⁓ brand and they partner it up with really good manufacturing partner. ⁓ So that's why it a really good brand. It has great synergy, right? But just from a production point of view, if the factory can ⁓ produce really good quality ⁓ it's not good enough. ⁓ It definitely needs something more ⁓ make it as a brand. So what I've been observing recently. ⁓ And you mentioned, there's a lot of great brands in Hong Kong, especially Selten ⁓ and Monbrey are relatively new brands, but then perform really well in overseas market. So I'm quite excited the local watch scene as well. There are more watch clubs. in Hong Kong right now. Back then, you want to ⁓ a watch event, ⁓ actually pretty difficult. You have to go on Facebook groups and then try organize an offline event. But right now, there are a few ⁓ great clubs, watch communities in Hong Kong. ⁓ And can easily meet people, ⁓ easily the resources that you need. So I that's what I see in Hong Kong. ⁓
Justin Dorfman: Yeah, you know, I was saying to you that I grew up in Hong Kong, so it's really fun to see these brands. And I was at ⁓ Windup San Francisco because now I live in the Bay Area. prior to going to the event, I saw three or four brands that I recognized that were from Hong Kong. And it was really exciting just to go to the show and introduce myself them. ⁓ talk about Hong Kong and get their perspective and very similar to you, know, the reasons why we're seeing such great innovation in the watch space and brand building from Hong Kong. it's really great to see. What can folks expect next from you guys? So you've got your first watch ⁓ out You had a very successful Kickstarter campaign. I'm sure, you know, the appetite for a follow-up model is strong. Can we ⁓ something coming down the pipe in the near future? Will we see you at events in the near future as well? ⁓ Yet what can folks sort of expect coming down the pipe?
James: you We are now preparing a new design based off on the first collection. So it will be an extension of the Order from Chaos collection. So we're going to introduce a new colorway and then we will come up with a bracelet actually. So people can actually pair it up with their own choice of leather straps but it also comes with a bracelet that we spend quite a lot of time developing it. I think we will be releasing more pictures and about the new product in maybe a few weeks. But the ⁓ launch date be around August or September. what we're looking at.
Justin Dorfman: I'm really excited to see what you guys have in store. But ⁓ the meantime, thank you so much for taking the time to with us. If folks want to learn more ⁓ and follow are the best places that they can go to find you guys?
James: think follow us on Instagram, Nectere Watches, and I'm on Instagram, so ⁓ feel to with me. I will see you guys ⁓ on there, and then also preparing a new website. ⁓ We'll be launching it very soon. ⁓
Justin Dorfman: James, thanks again for taking the time and have a great rest of your day over there.
James: Thank you so much, Justin
