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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Francesca Rudkin.
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Speaker 2: And I'm Louise Erie. Welcome to our New Zealand Hero podcast, The Little Things.
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Speaker 1: Good to have you with us. In this podcast, we talk to experts. We find out all the little things you need to know to improve different areas of your life. We cut through all the confusion and the crazy overload of information out there. And today, well, we thought we'd talk about Louise's obsession with heated rivalries.
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Speaker 3: It's not an obsession.
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Speaker 2: I'm probably one of the least obsessed people. There's a lot more people obsessed with it than me.
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Speaker 1: But if you got to the end of this year and you had to write a list of maybe your top five TV shows of the year, it would be in there, right? It would be if it was like your Spotify playlist. Yeah.
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Speaker 2: But because, you know, I've got a little WhatsApp group with my sister and my daughter and we're just called HR just because I think it's just, you know, and you might exchange a meme or two. Sometimes, you know, or a GIF for a birthday or whatever.
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Speaker 3: GIF?
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Speaker 4: GIF. Yeah.
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Speaker 2: Yeah. Anyway, but you've been enjoying the Jilly Cooper Romp Horizons.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, I have. And today we're sort of going to talk about the rise in erotic kind of literature and And TV shows which are once again getting a little bit risque. And I loved Rivals because I can remember thinking it was very naughty reading Jilly Cooper when I was little, when I was, you know, quite young. And I used to just, oh, I just used to love it.
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Speaker 2: And it was probably- It had everything.
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Speaker 3: It had everything. But it kind of.
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Speaker 1: Captured what we see across most of these shows which grab our attention now. You know, you've got sort of, aristocrats or high-class society, you've got a bit of camp and then you've got these sort of the sexual sort of naughtiness. It's just escapism. The Rivals is, I remember what a great era it was for music, not so much for clothes, but it's just fun, really good escapism, isn't it?
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Speaker 2: Absolutely. So look, there has been a huge increase in demand for erotic fiction and romance novels as well. Whether it's spicy romanticism, outright smut, or whatever I saw referred to as the bonk buster. The genre is in high demand. What is driving our desire for more saucy content? And while we are seeing a definite increase in its consumption, is this a new thing? How far back does this erotic fiction date?
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Speaker 1: To talk us through it today, we're joined by author and sex historian Dr Esme Louise James. Esme has studied the history of erotic fiction extensively. Her PhD focused on the development of erotic and pornographic novels in the 18th century. She is the host of hugely followed and watched online lecture series and podcast, Kinky History, and has also released a book of the same name. This month, Esme has authored and released her first work of erotic fiction. It's called Becoming Venus.
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Speaker 4: Dr.
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Speaker 1: Esme Louise James, welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for being with us.
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Speaker 3: I'm incredibly excited to be here. This is going to be such a good chat. I think it is.
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Speaker 1: I was wondering if we could just start with your own interest in erotic literature and sex history. Where has that come from?
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Speaker 3: Absolutely. So my PhD was in the emergence of erotic literature as a genre. So starting back in the 18th century and looking at the original smut novels that came on the scene. And prior to that, one of the reasons that I went into this area was because we were seeing even in that time of 2020 around the pandemic we were seeing an increase in consumption of spicy novels in particular. And it's one of those conversations that I think it's really important to put our history aspect back in there. Because we talk about learning from the past in nearly every other aspect of our lives and what we consume and understanding how we relate to the world. And I think that's particularly important as well in our conversations about sex, sexuality, and gender as well. So that's really where I kind of came into the conversation.
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Speaker 1: Because our sex lives tell us a lot about what is kind of going on in the world, don't they?
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Speaker 3: Absolutely. Everything that we do in the bedroom now and historically is political. You can tell so much about a civilization's Position at large by finding out their favorite position in the bedroom. And that's my biggest takeaway as a sex historian who's done this for many years. If I just had a list of everything that they're getting up to, I can tell you exactly how they feel about their current ruling authorities.
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Speaker 1: That's interesting. So it can tell you about the authority. It probably tells you about how they're doing financially, how stable economies are, all sorts of things.
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Speaker 2: Oh, hugely.
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Speaker 3: Finance is such a big part to consider here. So especially when we're looking at, we're going to be speaking a bit today about erotic literature. So keeping on that line, consumption of, I guess, more like controversial and taboo content sees an increase in in times of political unrest in particular, right? And especially as we're kind of getting towards those periods of feeling a bit more financially unstable, there's often a big shift as well towards the other side of conservatism because people don't want to step out of line if they're really struggling financially. But you see this kind of war between people trying to push the taboo and people trying to stay safe. So you can find a lot about how we're doing wealth-wise and, again, as I say, how we're feeling politically if we're about to inspire a revolution really by finding out how much we're consuming smart. Isn't that fascinating?
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Speaker 2: Well, that is fascinating because I can't decide whether it's a nihilistic kind of approach of everything's going to hell, let's enjoy all of this, or if it's a fantasy thing of everything's going to hell, let's pretend it's not happening.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think there's definitely an aspect of that because when all of your pleasures are stripped away from you, all of the little luxuries that you can buy and purchase, one of the few things that you can still gain access to is your own sense of sexual pleasure, whether that's by yourself or with a partner or with a book. So this idea of, I guess, more sexual experimentation with our imagination or media happening at times where we don't feel like we have access to the ability to buy, you know, grand meals every weekend and everything, it does make a lot of sense. Because from a political side of things as well, you are keeping people happy. And you kind of, you know, you stop worrying about the pleasures that you're missing outside of your own bedroom, I suppose.
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Speaker 1: This current rise that we've sort of seen in erotic literature, as you mentioned, from pre-COVID, which seems to still be going, is that fair to say?
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Speaker 2: Or building?
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Speaker 3: I would... Say, if anything, we're seeing, for lack of a better term, a bit of a climax right now in our consumption of erotic media. You know, at the moment, especially on things like TikTok, BookTok. uh, you can give spice ratings on books and some people, you know, have the standard of if it doesn't have five Chili's, uh, Chili emojis attached to the book, I don't want to read it. Uh, big respect to those people. Um, but we, we're seeing not only in our book market, uh, if you look at any of the, the, the bestseller tables, or even sometimes we have the book talk tables now at bookstores, uh, a lot of them can, uh, contain a lot of, uh, explicit media, but then even the TV shows that we're consuming. I don't think anyone was prepared for the grand rise of heated rivalry over this Christmas, and thank the gods for heated rivalry. So it's really spanning across books, our TV, and then on top of that, we're listening to a lot of erotic audio. We have apps like Quinn at the moment that are erotic readings and stories that you essentially plug into your ears. So erotic media in all aspects has just shot up.
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Speaker 1: That's really interesting. I can kind of understand why during COVID, during all these lockdowns and things, we turned to some escapism, right? So you understand how that sort of rise began there. But it's interesting you talk about the book talk. Somebody said to me, Kindles have made a huge difference because people can't see the title of the book that you're reading. So women feel that they can read whatever they want without being seen. Audiobooks are the same, right? You can just put your headphones on at the gym and no one knows what you're listening to or what you're going through. So I wonder if it's sort of a combination, the continued interest, is it a bit of a combination of those sort of two things, sort of what was happening in society, but also the accessibility of it?
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Speaker 3: Absolutely. And I think that comes down to the aspect of shame, which is obviously really important to talk about in these conversations. And women's shame in particular for exploring any kind of aspect of their own sexuality and imagination. So the kind of anonymity that we have, as you say, you know, with book covers and audio books is a huge part of that. But I think even further than that, this idea that we are having conversations just like this that are so big in the media helps to reduce the aspect of shame when it comes to consumption of this media. And one thing that I always remind people, other than the fact that smutting media is far from a new thing, but often a lot of the content that it you know, contained sexually explicit content has been consumed by men and especially rich and elite men throughout history for centuries before it got into women's hands and women writers. And it was only really when women came into the conversation that we had this understanding of it as being something that is not very intelligent and frivolous and at worst, you know, a danger to our minds and intellect. And so that's really where the shame of sexually explicit books started to emerge. And so there is something incredibly powerful about pushing back on that and, you know, taking a sense of joy and empowerment in happily listening to heated rivalry on the train.
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Speaker 1: And actually, it'd be great maybe if we could just do a little bit of a history lesson, which I think is fascinating. So you were mentioning that erotic literature kind of evolved in the 18th century. Was that correct?
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Speaker 3: Yes. So one of the, what we classify as the first pornographic novel in the English language is a book called Fanny Hill, which people may be familiar with. No.
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Speaker 2: Is it any good? I think I have heard of it, but I haven't read it.
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Speaker 1: Is it any good?
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Speaker 3: Oh, absolutely. I highly recommend going back to the origins of this tradition and Fanny Hill is wonderful. Essentially, it follows a sex worker throughout London as she explores the world of pleasures and everything it has to offer. And Miss Fanny Hill is doing everything. She really tries out everything under the sun by the course of the novel and then, you know, remembers that she has a true love and, you know, hops back to him and saves him from ruin. So we love Fanny Hill. And one of the things I think is so beautiful about Fanny Hill is that in times it's really funny because it doesn't, um, uh, you know, uh, shy away from the fact that sex can be silly and funny and vulnerable. Um, the author John Cleland at some stages gets some, uh, uh, the actual autonomy of females entirely correct, which is lovely to see from novels that old. Um, but there's something great because I think when we, um, do talk about a lot of, um, sex in media, we think that it's like, you know, very serious, you know, it either has to be very, very highbrow, or it has to be very erotically driven and nothing else. But sex can be funny. And that's something that these early novels were doing right. So that's, you know, at 1749. It's a bit of a fun fact. On the day that one of the editions.
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Speaker 5: Of it was released, An earthquake shook London and it made the church declare that the publication of Fanny Hill had brought down the wrath of God.
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Speaker 3: And that was one of the reasons that it was banned for a while. So really made an impact. But this starts a bit of a tradition all throughout the 18th century as we start to write more and more. They weren't then called pornographic novels. They would later be called pornographic novels in England and France in particular. In France, we had a lot more very, very explicit pornography coming out. People may be familiar with the likes of Le Marquis de Sade, who wrote some incredibly, incredibly explicit content that comes with every content warning under the sun. But a lot of what these French pornographers were doing, remembering that at this time, these were just novels. We didn't have genres like we know today. These were just a part of the wide variety of books you could read. A lot of these books were really taking a swipe at the aristocracy. A lot of them, you know, Marie Antoinette was a prime victim of our smut campaign. There was smutty pamphlets and operas and books written about Marie Antoinette and all of the various, you know, lesbian parties that she would go to and all of her various dalliances with everyone but her husband. you know, her husband who they kind of pictured as this cuck of a king. But this was so impactful that one of the main reasons that a lot of historians say that we kind of developed such an anger towards the aristocracy was fuelled by these pornographic pamphlets. So much so that when Versailles was stormed, the revolutionaries actually instigated enacted some of the scenes that we saw from the most famous pornographic novels. So they were having a considerable impact on the public's perception. You know, this is before an age where we have a conversation about engaging critically in media. So there was no difference between reading something that was fictional and determining it to be, you know, fact.
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Speaker 2: That is absolutely fascinating. And I feel like you can transport that to different parts of history, you know, moving forward. Sorry, is it still history when it's going forward? But you know what I mean. Even today with, you know, the files and that whole, what's it?
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Speaker 3: Epstein?
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Speaker 2: The Epstein class and all that kind of thing. You know, I find that quite interesting. It's almost a parallel kind of thought process.
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Speaker 1: Isma, there were a couple of things that you said there that caught my attention. One, you said that Fanny Hill did everything.
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Speaker 3: Yeah.
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Speaker 1: And the reason that caught my attention is because we feel that this day and age we're so much more risque and we do so many more, you know, like, I don't know, we sort of think of once upon a time everyone thought sex was very conservative and things like that. But the point is that actually they were doing everything and playing with everything and kind of, you know, it's not, there's nothing really new when it comes maybe to writing about sex.
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Speaker 3: Not at all. I am a big proponent of the fact that history is very circular. And this is part of the story, actually, is that around the time that we have this influx and this emergence of pornography, which is depicting... Everything that we would consider very radical today, that we were very open about. We didn't have a word for things like kinks and fetishes at that time, but Fanny is engaging in BDSM play. Her initial experience is with a woman in bed. She was in group play, toys, items. Around the same time in this 18th century, spanking, for instance, became known as the English vice because it was so prolifically practiced all throughout England, particularly in London. You could go to brothels in London at lunchtime for a quick spanking and go on your way. They thought it was really good for your overall health, particularly for men. So around the post-revolutionary period, if we're saying that pornography really had its hand in causing a lot of these revolutionary attitudes, there is this fear of further revolution creeping into England. And one of the, you know, things that we start to do is we really start to clean up our act politically. There is, we see that conservative shift really start to happen. And this is why we often call it the long 18th century, because in many ways, we're still trying to unlearn some of the attitudes that we developed throughout this time. This is when we start to define words like homosexuality, kinks fetishes and importantly we give these words a um well give these activities a word um not to understand these behaviors but to diagnose perversion to determine what is normal and what is not normal right and so when we start to do that then we have this attitude of well we need to behave correctly you know marriage is now something that only happens in the bed with your husband, and that is it. And we go away from a more sexually liberal attitude that we were seeing in the early 18th century in many places. And, you know, I also remind people that at this time, in the 1600s, 1700s, Across Europe, you could just go buy dildos at markets.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, I've seen them in museums.
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Speaker 3: Yes. And, you know, we've had a huge flashback into sex toys being a big part of our life now, but in many ways, you know, we still can't talk about them in a lot of media. But go back 300 or so years ago, you could just pop out and get it with your carrots and your cabbages.
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Speaker 1: I love it. Sorry, the other thing I just really quickly wanted to ask was, when it came to the erotic literature, when it began, was it, was it all about the male gaze? Was it written by men for men? Or, you know, listening to you talk about Fanny Hill, it sounds like a woman could kind of read this book and enjoy it.
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Speaker 3: I don't, Yes, there's a bit of a mix of both because obviously, you know, we have a restriction on a lot of women that were able to write at the time. That's not to say we didn't have women who were writing these. We have a fair few that are under, you know, as Virginia Woolf says, if a non was often a woman. And a lot of our publications that came out under that time that did come out anonymously could well have been for women. They often tend to be our ones that are very... they kind of have that more female gaze to them. What's fascinating about the likes of Fanny Hill and other, uh, you know, uh, big, uh, pornographic novels of the time, uh, that we say as literary scholars is very often these are, and they're nearly always a woman's perspective and they're written, uh, in a way that's very queer. Um, so often Fanny Hill has been called a, um, an attempt at literary cross-dressing, for instance. And there was, you know, a lot of rumours about John Cleland, the author's own sexuality. And so I also think that there is a situation there where while they may not always have been written for women and with women in mind, often they're men who are potentially a towards women and potentially the relationships they have. But of course, you know, we also, at the same time, we get the rise of the romance novel, which, uh, you know, was seen as the same thing like, uh, Pamela and Clarissa. And this was when we saw women for the first time have a mass readership. Um, and it wasn't just, um, women wouldn't just read these books alone. They would get together in groups and read them all together, which was, you know, that's really where we see those first kind of initial bestsellers. And at times, you know, these novels were– they can get very explicit as well. But then that brings us not too far from that to the likes of Jane Austen, who at the time that.
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Speaker 1: She was writing– She was naughty, wasn't she?
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Speaker 3: She was incredibly naughty. She was considered as– dangerous and in many ways classified as pornography. Pride and Prejudice would have been considered the erotica of its age. And what I find really fascinating when you go back through literary criticism of that time is that critics were talking the exact same about Pride and Prejudice as we talk about fairy smut novels today. They really thought that at best Jane Austen was this light and frivolous read and and at worst could be a danger to the intellect and reason of women because it would send our imagination so wild that we would lose all control of our libido.
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Speaker 1: I'm really embarrassed to have to ask this question, but what is a fairy smut novel?
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Speaker 2: Francesca.
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Speaker 1: What have I missed?
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Speaker 2: Well, it's just that it is what it is, fairy smut.
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Speaker 3: Fairy smut.
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Speaker 1: Like fairies, like elves fairies. what are we talking about.
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Speaker 3: Well a court of thorns and roses is one of uh i think one of the book series that took off uh quite prolifically around 2022 i would say um and it's a series by an author called sarah j mass and essentially uh over the course of five novels uh she explores the a fairy world, but people aren't reading it for the fairy politics, I would say, that much.
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Speaker 1: All right, so we are in a fairy, okay.
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Speaker 2: I didn't know whether they meant, I guess it could mean something else. It's not a genre I've really read. My daughter's always trying to get me to read more the ones with sport associated with them, and there seems to be a large genre of that as well, sports and same-sex stuff, and often men in the same sex, you know. Hence heated rivalry. But there's another great Australian one with two football players. It's that taboo. I think it's still pushing those taboos. And I was thinking about that when you said about how things changed and we started to, you know, make words like homosexually perverse and things like that. It's just silly, isn't it? Because it's a veneer. It's all still happening. It's just being pushed into another quieter place.
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Speaker 3: Absolutely. And that, you know, when it comes down to coining words, that's often what happens. It's very rare throughout history that we're coining a term when it comes to human behavior because we're very excited about it.
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Speaker 2: You know.
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Speaker 3: And so that really is a case that once we have a word for homosexuality, then we have discussions and we have an understanding of from that point on, which is not that long ago, you know, this is only about 250 years we're talking about, where we now have an understanding of sexuality being something that, you know, is something that's innate, we're human, and not something that's just, you know, you had these behaviours or these dalliances with these people. And because, you know, in many ways, throughout most of history, we had a more fluid understanding of our sexuality. But now we have this diagnosis and this kind of imperative to try and cure people, which starts around that time.
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Speaker 1: And lots of labels.
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Speaker 3: Lots of labels all kind of appear around that. There's a kind of like rush for labels when we see the likes of, Freud and everyone coming on the scene and he decides to really bang out labels for everything that he can see. And a lot of those still exist. Thankfully, a lot of them have gone away. But that is really where we kind of see that very medical imperative come in, which we really still live with a lot of that today.
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Speaker 1: So, Esme, what is it? What is it about fairy sex that attracts people? Is it escapism? Is it filling a gap in our lives?
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Speaker 3: What is it? Escapism is a huge part of it. And that is something that goes along with any kind of sexual fantasy. You know, for instance, I would classify Fifty Shades of Grey as a fantasy novel because that kind of– world of such immense wealth and being swept away on your first date on a helicopter is a fantastical situation. So often a lot of the most high performing romance or sexual content has an aspect of fantasy to it. And that isn't just now. You know, fairy smut's been around for many, many, many centuries. I've been missing out.
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Speaker 2: You're thinking about Tinkerbell in a whole other way aren't you Francesca.
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Speaker 3: I mean Tinkerbell Tinkerbell's a very popular Halloween costume for a reason I suppose.
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Speaker 1: Oh I didn't know the things we're learning this is putting a whole new perspective on a lot of things but it's really interesting that you mention that that it's often sort of maybe aristocrats or high society there's that element of camp maybe to it and then there's just these sexual encounters and And I've been totally drawn to the TV show Rivals because I've just loved going back into that Jilly Cooper 80s world. And it is, it's just fun, light escapism compared to what's on the front page of the newspaper each day.
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Speaker 3: Absolutely. And, you know, I would say stuff like Bridgerton, for instance, that's been a huge aspect of our escapism over the last few years. We just recently had a a new reimagining of my brilliant career come out, which has been wonderful. Really, really. And, you know, we're seeing a lot of, like, reinsertion of sexual content into that book as well. I think we're seeing this in a lot of different aspects of what we consume. But in a world where we are waking up, I would say, with a lot of anxiety every time we open our phones and read what's happened in the news, it's only... it's only a pattern, I would say, that we would suddenly turn to escapist fantasies, namely sexual ones, because we've done that all throughout history. The best way to kind of you know, pull away from the world is to consume yourself in some fairy smut.
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Speaker 2: And I think it's not even just fantasy. There's a certain comfort in it because as, you know, Francesco, I have re-watched. If I'm feeling a bit down, I'll re-watch a bit of my favourite episodes of Heated Wife.
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Speaker 3: How many times? Honestly, this is.
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Speaker 2: I'm not even an exception. Go on, tell us how many times have you watched that series? No, I can't. I wouldn't even know. But I don't watch the whole series over again. I just watch certain feel-good episodes.
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Speaker 4: Yeah.
00:27:45
Speaker 1: You don't go straight to the sex bits.
00:27:47
Speaker 2: No, no.
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Speaker 3: Just checking. No, she's episode five only.
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Speaker 2: Wait, which one's episode five? Is that when he says, I'm going to the cottage?
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Speaker 3: Yes. I think that's the one that's free of all sex. The one episode.
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Speaker 2: Yeah. It's just so adorable. I guess it's that, you know, I mean, there must be a lot of gay sportsmen who can never come out. So there's also that kind of, you know, and we know it's not real, but if it only were, you know, if people were still free to be completely who they are.
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Speaker 3: Well, do you know what? There was a recent social media survey about how many women have left their husbands after watching Heated Rivalry. And I think it actually has a lot to do with the fact that the depiction of romance, which I think is so important for so many reasons within Heated Rivalry, really shows this, by the end, this really intense caring relationship. We have two people who just to the ends of the earth would want to care and nurture for one another. And what we see is such a beautiful evolution of something that starts as very physical. And I think that's important in depictions of queer relationships because often, especially in male homosexual scenes, casual queer intimacy is very prolific. And so seeing something like that develop so movingly to something that by the final episodes they are stripped of sex and we just have the vulnerabilities of these two men really coming to the surface and then nurturing each other through it. And it's such, I can see why so many people left their husbands.
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Speaker 2: It's really interesting because I know so many people who have tried to watch it and gone, oh, I can't get past, I just couldn't get past the second episode. I'm like, I know it sounds crazy, but you've.
00:29:36
Speaker 3: Got to keep going.
00:29:37
Speaker 1: Because I was a bit the same. Lou said to me, you've got to watch.
00:29:39
Speaker 2: It.
00:29:40
Speaker 1: And I said, I went, Lou, really? Have I got time for this?
00:29:43
Speaker 5: You know?
00:29:44
Speaker 1: And then I got, and then I got hooked. And then as you say, the relationships, which became this really, the story sort of moves and it becomes this really beautiful love story. And I suppose that's why it hit such a nerve. It's, it's, it's, we're seeing something a little bit different in the sense you've got two sports people who can't be themselves who are out there showing a love story. And I imagine that was really the thing that has turned it into this global sensation.
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Speaker 3: Absolutely. It's the reverse of your slow burn, which I think is really important for representations of our queer community in Um, there was, I know there was so many people in my life that were so deeply moved by feeling, um, it's like their journey of coming out represented. Um, we, we, we, I think, you know, it can be very easy to, um, believe that we're now so removed from the shame that exists around, um, um, uh, a lot of the LGBTQ plus community, because, uh, you know, hopefully if we have people in our lives, it doesn't feel that way anymore, but, um, the amount of people that are still living with the shame they had to carry with them for so many years that can relate to the journey of these men and, you know, potentially coming out to their, to their best friend, finding solace in someone else who's going through the same situation. And I'm really looking forward to seeing the next season to see how they're going to navigate this world of coming out, not coming out. We have the beautiful storyline of, scott hunter the star player you know coming out so publicly and so beautifully and we're seeing different representations of what it can mean to embrace um your own sexuality or your own sense of self and that there's no right or wrong way there could be big public declarations or often it can just be a more slow and vulnerable thing that you have to do alongside a partner and a friend.
00:31:41
Speaker 1: You're listening to The Little Things, and our guest is author and sex historian Esme Louise James, talking about the increase in demand for erotic fiction. We'll be back after the break.
00:32:00
Speaker 3: When we were talking.
00:32:01
Speaker 1: About shame earlier, is the shame associated with erotic literature more of a reflection of who we are in our situation? Or is it the shame of, I've picked up, I'm reading this book?
00:32:16
Speaker 3: I think it's a bit of both. We still are, you know, in that long 18th century, we're still unlearning a lot of shame when it comes to our bodies and our sexuality. I think it's wonderful that we're seeing more open conversations to do with, you know, more public conversations of love and relationships and on podcasts and media and everything. Because more than anything, it's conversation that can start to erase this stigma. There's still so many people. I do a lot of work alongside my mum, who's a statistician, and we recently did a sexistics survey, as we call it. Ooh, love it. Yeah, a lot of fun. And out of the 15,000 people that were on our recent survey, 97% of them said that they wanted sex education to continue into adulthood forever. And they wanted that education to come from forms that were more innovative, like social media, podcasts, books, things like that, rather than your traditional kind of educational setting. And that speaks so much, I believe, to the fact that so many of us feel like we still don't know our own bodies and our desires and how we love and how we lust. And that's because often our education stops in high school. And it should go without saying that teachings of how to hold hands at recess are a bit different to what sex looks like after 50.
00:33:40
Speaker 4: That's really interesting, that survey. Out of curiosity, though, how do they feel about kind of traditional pornography, which, of course, we are a little bit concerned about as a mother with teenagers and sons and daughters and things, about how they're being told how to have sex?
00:34:00
Speaker 3: There is a real shift, a real pendulum shift that we've seen in pornographic consumption. You know, around the 2010s, we were seeing a bit of, it was almost like an empowerment movement for women to claim that they watched porn as well. And, you know, kind of fixing the gender gap of who says they watch porn. And now very quickly in that conversation, we've seen a swap the opposite way. And I think a lot of this, again, happened after COVID. So during COVID, again, one of the studies that we and many other people did was about how sexual behavior changed in COVID. And one thing that is, I still find quite hilarious. is that you can tell when every city in Australia went into lockdown by an almost 300% increase in pornographic access that day. And so sex historians of the future don't even need to look at any political documents. We can tell exactly when every country was, every state rather, was shut down.
00:34:59
Speaker 2: So people were buying puppies and they were looking at porn.
00:35:02
Speaker 1: And making sourdough.
00:35:04
Speaker 3: Absolutely. Sale of sex toys skyrocketed. consumption of pornographic media skyrocketed. And I think a lot of that also has probably influenced this escalation in conversations about sex and sexuality. Because once we're let out of our house, that doesn't suddenly all go away, everything that we learned and did.
00:35:28
Speaker 1: You really, Lou was really curious to know whether with this rise of erotic fiction, whether people were having better sex and we weren't sure whether there'd be any way to be able.
00:35:36
Speaker 4: To test that.
00:35:37
Speaker 1: But since you've got the statistician, you know, the mum, and you've done the survey, I don't know whether you asked that question or not.
00:35:43
Speaker 3: Oh, do you know what? You absolutely can. So one of the, our most recent survey, which was completed at the top of last year, one of the things that we looked at as well, alongside, you know, how people... you know, want to gain sexual education and what they learn from books and stuff like that was also around how that translates into their own intimate lives. One thing that was really fascinating for us throughout this was that many people still say that they can't talk to their partners about sex. And that's important because a lot of people can talk to, not a lot of people, but people are most likely to kind of talk to friends about um and their partner is the most difficult person uh for a lot of people to speak with and then we allowed people to not only um uh you know you know tick a box but also kind of give us some qualitative data and what people were saying in the comments about that was that they just didn't know about how to go about having these conversations of what they wanted with their partner and while you can you know read the sexual fantasy and reading photographic media is wonderful for learning about your own sexuality, about what you like and what you don't like and what you want to try. We know that. That is something that comes up time and time again, especially for women who are consuming this media, whether through audiobooks. But what people are still struggling to do is then take that, what they've learned about themselves, and communicate to their partners, whoever they may be. And that really comes down to this Yeah, but it comes down to that education aspect, right?
00:37:24
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, but I'm just thinking, and this is a really big generalisation, so just take it as that, but if young men are watching quite full-on porn and it's sometimes a bit troubling and a little bit dangerous or risque or even outright violent, and girls are reading Very Smart, how does that come together in the bedroom?
00:37:50
Speaker 3: One thing that I would recommend to any men is that at the moment with this prolific rise in the likes of heated rivalry, Bridgerton, very smart, what be it, if so many women are saying that this is– they are loving this, they are enjoying this, give it a read. Yeah.
00:38:14
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:38:15
Speaker 3: Give it a read. You know, we keep on putting these books into women's only media. But if that is what is resonating with us, and if you really want to be a stallion in the bedroom, go give it a read. You're seeing, you know, a big kickback from, I think, the conversations that we're having about the manosphere and everything. A lot of men who are, you know, kind of doing the work to unlearn that more toxic behavior are turning away from things like explicit pornography and But again, it's just a case of being able to have these conversations in the forefront because how are young boys in particular meant to know how to access good or ethical pornographic media if we're not having those conversations? It's so true.
00:39:01
Speaker 2: I mean, it can only be a win-win, right?
00:39:03
Speaker 4: Yeah.
00:39:04
Speaker 2: Exactly.
00:39:05
Speaker 1: They could be horrified for a moment or two and then go away and read it. We should also probably just cover off Who is reading this book? Is there a demographic? Is there an age group? I know that a friend of mine was saying that, you know, such a range of people are reading this and that their husband was quite shocked, bordering on horrified when he picked up. a book that she was reading and read it. So who is, it's not my partner, by the way, but who is reading? Is it a wide range of age and demographics and?
00:39:48
Speaker 3: We are. It's definitely a huge, a huge range of demographics. But most popular is a lot of women and non-binary readers. They are the biggest demographic, but have also historically for many years been the biggest demographic of romance media. And as much as, you know, again, we like to classify it as frivolous. The romance wheelhouse of Mills and Boone have really kept the printing press alive for the last 50 years. These are our biggest sellers and always have been. We just, you know, don't like to celebrate it as much. So women and non-binary people are really high up there. But we are now finally seeing an increase in men coming on board. And I think that also has to do, you know, as we came back to earlier about the fact that you can hide the book that you're reading. In some of the work I did recently, one of the men's submissions came and said that he loves reading this Court of Thorns and Roses series, for instance, but he feels like he has to hide it and he's ashamed of his co-workers finding out that he was reading it. So I think if we're talking about shame, there's still definitely a shame around men consuming this kind of media at the moment because we have classified it as dainty and feminine. So the best thing that we can possibly do is try and erase that assumption. Just like things like Game of Thrones are considered for everyone, so these books should be for everyone as well.
00:41:17
Speaker 1: And you've written your own book, Becoming Venus.
00:41:20
Speaker 2: I have.
00:41:20
Speaker 1: Yes, which is available here at Enamored Bookstore. Tell us what drove you to do it. Well, I think it's probably clear what drove you to do it.
00:41:29
Speaker 2: You've read enough.
00:41:30
Speaker 1: You thought, I can give this a whirl.
00:41:33
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think after spending so long studying the history of pornographic novels, I should really try my hand in writing my own. But I really wanted to, for a long time, attempt the feminist Fifty Shades of Grey. I am also E.L. James, which was the bane of my life as an aspiring author at 14 when I got up at assembly and told everyone I'd written a book at 14. I got called into the principal's office because everyone went to look it up and they had complaints from the parents because they thought I was peddling Fifty Shades of Grey. I would be a much richer woman and that would be wonderful. But I think, you know, to kind of get my revenge on being on the shadows, I've attempted to write this novel, which essentially follows Rose, who's a PhD student in Melbourne, who has just gone through a breakup and decides to impulsively reach out to a hookup of five years earlier. And this one impulsive message ends up sending her on a very unexpected journey through the various secret underground clubs of Melbourne. And it really centers around her own journey becoming her and using or finding a way to kind of through understanding her own sexuality, getting a better sense of who she is and her place in the world. In many ways, it's loosely an adaptation of Fanny Hill. So if you read Fanny Hill alongside it or before and after, you'll see some modernisations of the famous scenes of Fanny Hill in it throughout. So it's got a bit of everything.
00:43:12
Speaker 2: And have you left room for it to be a series?
00:43:15
Speaker 3: Absolutely. I just got the green light to start ticking away at book two now, which is very exciting.
00:43:22
Speaker 2: Oh, that's so wonderful.
00:43:25
Speaker 3: Thank you very much.
00:43:26
Speaker 2: I mean, what role do you see erotic play, fiction playing into the future? Do you expect the demand to keep growing?
00:43:34
Speaker 3: I hope it does. But as I say, history is always very circular. So we could be seeing a rise now. And then I do think we're already seeing a very strong conservative kickback. But one thing that we're in a unique position in history is is that we have access to such immediate forms of information and technology that we've never seen before. So if we're able to have conversations like this that are able to reach people about the importance of erotica, that it's not just something to quickly get your rocks off before bed, erotica can be a ways to understand more about ourselves, a way to strengthen our connection to our partner, It can be a way, as we've seen throughout history, to inspire revolution. And it can be a way to challenge our philosophical beliefs. There's a lot of strengths to erotica that are very unique to the genre. By nature, it is stimulating, whether that's physically, intellectually, or for the imagination. And that is something that is so truly powerful for the genre. So I hope it continues to grow. And that will only happen if we continue to kind of understand the importance of it.
00:44:55
Speaker 4: Dr.
00:44:56
Speaker 1: Esme Louise James, it has been a delight to talk to you. I thought I was sort of quite switched on, but it turns out I've got a lot to learn about smutty media and I shall head on forth and do that.
00:45:09
Speaker 3: But thank you.
00:45:10
Speaker 1: It's been really wonderful to talk to you. Really lovely to meet you and best of luck with the book.
00:45:14
Speaker 3: Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.
00:45:16
Speaker 2: Such an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much.
00:45:28
Speaker 1: I just love that term, smutty media.
00:45:29
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've written it down. I mean, I've heard it a million times. It's just very representative.
00:45:36
Speaker 1: I think so. I think so. And it is smutty. And that's okay, I think, as opposed to the smutty media, which isn't okay. I'm so sorry. I'm very embarrassed about not knowing about fairy sex. I'm just saying off here. Did she think it was sex on a fairy?
00:45:53
Speaker 2: No, I didn't.
00:45:55
Speaker 1: I was just wanting to clarify that we were in a sort of a little mythical world there with fairies.
00:45:59
Speaker 2: I mean, I couldn't have explained it because I've only heard the term and seen a couple of the books in my little browsing of those types of wonderful bookshops.
00:46:08
Speaker 4: Yeah.
00:46:10
Speaker 2: And it's not a genre. I can't really imagine getting into it. But I do know people do.
00:46:14
Speaker 1: The other fascinating thing Isamay said was, you know, I've always, I'm going to be really honest, I've always looked down on Mills and Boone's books. right Mills and Boone I've always kind of gone I wouldn't be seeing dead reading one of those books you know but she made a really good point there that they've kept the printing the publishing industry alive for sort of 50 decades or so you know what.
00:46:35
Speaker 2: Was it what were they the 70s and 80s was that Mills and.
00:46:37
Speaker 1: Boone yeah I think so they were always in they were always in doctors you know they'd be in the magazine racks at doctors clinics and the dentists and things.
00:46:44
Speaker 2: Like that you know and I'd always go.
00:46:46
Speaker 1: I can't pick that up here in the you know the waiting room Which is silly.
00:46:52
Speaker 2: Think of books that felt a bit taboo from our lives. But yeah, that is weird. Although they were fairly tame, Meals and Beans.
00:47:02
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think so.
00:47:03
Speaker 2: I think so.
00:47:03
Speaker 1: But I think it's great that we're all enjoying a lot more sort of bonk fests on the bonk buster and the bonk fest. Bit of erotica. literacy and the TV shows and things like that, broadening everybody's horizons.
00:47:18
Speaker 2: We didn't go into the downsides, which I'm sure, you know, there may be some. But I think overall, what I really love about it is that young women are, you know, young and old. People are engaging in it and enjoying it. And maybe they are learning something about what they like. And maybe if they can translate that to their partner, people might be Having a bit better sex.
00:47:41
Speaker 1: There we go.
00:47:42
Speaker 2: Or if not, at least a bit of time on their own.
00:47:44
Speaker 1: If you'd like to hear more from Esme, Kinky History is her podcast and the novel Becoming Venus is available now. You can get it at the Enamid bookstore. And they have a fantastic range of erotic literature if you're interested in delving into something new.
00:47:59
Speaker 2: Excellent for gifts for that person who's got everything.
00:48:02
Speaker 1: Okay, there we go. Thanks for joining us on our New Zealand Herald podcast series, The Little Things. We hope you share this podcast with the women in your life so we can all broaden our reading lists and spice up book clubs.
00:48:12
Speaker 2: A little bit. You can follow this podcast on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts. And for more episodes from us on other topics, head to nzherald.co.nz.
00:48:21
Speaker 1: And we'll catch you next time on The Little Things.
Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Francesca Rudkin.
00:00:03
Speaker 2: And I'm Louise Erie. Welcome to our New Zealand Hero podcast, The Little Things.
00:00:06
Speaker 1: Good to have you with us. In this podcast, we talk to experts. We find out all the little things you need to know to improve different areas of your life. We cut through all the confusion and the crazy overload of information out there. And today, well, we thought we'd talk about Louise's obsession with heated rivalries.
00:00:26
Speaker 3: It's not an obsession.
00:00:27
Speaker 2: I'm probably one of the least obsessed people. There's a lot more people obsessed with it than me.
00:00:32
Speaker 1: But if you got to the end of this year and you had to write a list of maybe your top five TV shows of the year, it would be in there, right? It would be if it was like your Spotify playlist. Yeah.
00:00:48
Speaker 2: But because, you know, I've got a little WhatsApp group with my sister and my daughter and we're just called HR just because I think it's just, you know, and you might exchange a meme or two. Sometimes, you know, or a GIF for a birthday or whatever.
00:01:03
Speaker 3: GIF?
00:01:03
Speaker 4: GIF. Yeah.
00:01:04
Speaker 2: Yeah. Anyway, but you've been enjoying the Jilly Cooper Romp Horizons.
00:01:08
Speaker 1: Yeah, I have. And today we're sort of going to talk about the rise in erotic kind of literature and And TV shows which are once again getting a little bit risque. And I loved Rivals because I can remember thinking it was very naughty reading Jilly Cooper when I was little, when I was, you know, quite young. And I used to just, oh, I just used to love it.
00:01:28
Speaker 2: And it was probably- It had everything.
00:01:29
Speaker 3: It had everything. But it kind of.
00:01:31
Speaker 1: Captured what we see across most of these shows which grab our attention now. You know, you've got sort of, aristocrats or high-class society, you've got a bit of camp and then you've got these sort of the sexual sort of naughtiness. It's just escapism. The Rivals is, I remember what a great era it was for music, not so much for clothes, but it's just fun, really good escapism, isn't it?
00:01:55
Speaker 2: Absolutely. So look, there has been a huge increase in demand for erotic fiction and romance novels as well. Whether it's spicy romanticism, outright smut, or whatever I saw referred to as the bonk buster. The genre is in high demand. What is driving our desire for more saucy content? And while we are seeing a definite increase in its consumption, is this a new thing? How far back does this erotic fiction date?
00:02:18
Speaker 1: To talk us through it today, we're joined by author and sex historian Dr Esme Louise James. Esme has studied the history of erotic fiction extensively. Her PhD focused on the development of erotic and pornographic novels in the 18th century. She is the host of hugely followed and watched online lecture series and podcast, Kinky History, and has also released a book of the same name. This month, Esme has authored and released her first work of erotic fiction. It's called Becoming Venus.
00:02:45
Speaker 4: Dr.
00:02:45
Speaker 1: Esme Louise James, welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for being with us.
00:02:50
Speaker 3: I'm incredibly excited to be here. This is going to be such a good chat. I think it is.
00:02:55
Speaker 1: I was wondering if we could just start with your own interest in erotic literature and sex history. Where has that come from?
00:03:03
Speaker 3: Absolutely. So my PhD was in the emergence of erotic literature as a genre. So starting back in the 18th century and looking at the original smut novels that came on the scene. And prior to that, one of the reasons that I went into this area was because we were seeing even in that time of 2020 around the pandemic we were seeing an increase in consumption of spicy novels in particular. And it's one of those conversations that I think it's really important to put our history aspect back in there. Because we talk about learning from the past in nearly every other aspect of our lives and what we consume and understanding how we relate to the world. And I think that's particularly important as well in our conversations about sex, sexuality, and gender as well. So that's really where I kind of came into the conversation.
00:03:54
Speaker 1: Because our sex lives tell us a lot about what is kind of going on in the world, don't they?
00:03:59
Speaker 3: Absolutely. Everything that we do in the bedroom now and historically is political. You can tell so much about a civilization's Position at large by finding out their favorite position in the bedroom. And that's my biggest takeaway as a sex historian who's done this for many years. If I just had a list of everything that they're getting up to, I can tell you exactly how they feel about their current ruling authorities.
00:04:26
Speaker 1: That's interesting. So it can tell you about the authority. It probably tells you about how they're doing financially, how stable economies are, all sorts of things.
00:04:36
Speaker 2: Oh, hugely.
00:04:37
Speaker 3: Finance is such a big part to consider here. So especially when we're looking at, we're going to be speaking a bit today about erotic literature. So keeping on that line, consumption of, I guess, more like controversial and taboo content sees an increase in in times of political unrest in particular, right? And especially as we're kind of getting towards those periods of feeling a bit more financially unstable, there's often a big shift as well towards the other side of conservatism because people don't want to step out of line if they're really struggling financially. But you see this kind of war between people trying to push the taboo and people trying to stay safe. So you can find a lot about how we're doing wealth-wise and, again, as I say, how we're feeling politically if we're about to inspire a revolution really by finding out how much we're consuming smart. Isn't that fascinating?
00:05:40
Speaker 2: Well, that is fascinating because I can't decide whether it's a nihilistic kind of approach of everything's going to hell, let's enjoy all of this, or if it's a fantasy thing of everything's going to hell, let's pretend it's not happening.
00:05:54
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think there's definitely an aspect of that because when all of your pleasures are stripped away from you, all of the little luxuries that you can buy and purchase, one of the few things that you can still gain access to is your own sense of sexual pleasure, whether that's by yourself or with a partner or with a book. So this idea of, I guess, more sexual experimentation with our imagination or media happening at times where we don't feel like we have access to the ability to buy, you know, grand meals every weekend and everything, it does make a lot of sense. Because from a political side of things as well, you are keeping people happy. And you kind of, you know, you stop worrying about the pleasures that you're missing outside of your own bedroom, I suppose.
00:06:42
Speaker 1: This current rise that we've sort of seen in erotic literature, as you mentioned, from pre-COVID, which seems to still be going, is that fair to say?
00:06:50
Speaker 2: Or building?
00:06:51
Speaker 3: I would... Say, if anything, we're seeing, for lack of a better term, a bit of a climax right now in our consumption of erotic media. You know, at the moment, especially on things like TikTok, BookTok. uh, you can give spice ratings on books and some people, you know, have the standard of if it doesn't have five Chili's, uh, Chili emojis attached to the book, I don't want to read it. Uh, big respect to those people. Um, but we, we're seeing not only in our book market, uh, if you look at any of the, the, the bestseller tables, or even sometimes we have the book talk tables now at bookstores, uh, a lot of them can, uh, contain a lot of, uh, explicit media, but then even the TV shows that we're consuming. I don't think anyone was prepared for the grand rise of heated rivalry over this Christmas, and thank the gods for heated rivalry. So it's really spanning across books, our TV, and then on top of that, we're listening to a lot of erotic audio. We have apps like Quinn at the moment that are erotic readings and stories that you essentially plug into your ears. So erotic media in all aspects has just shot up.
00:08:09
Speaker 1: That's really interesting. I can kind of understand why during COVID, during all these lockdowns and things, we turned to some escapism, right? So you understand how that sort of rise began there. But it's interesting you talk about the book talk. Somebody said to me, Kindles have made a huge difference because people can't see the title of the book that you're reading. So women feel that they can read whatever they want without being seen. Audiobooks are the same, right? You can just put your headphones on at the gym and no one knows what you're listening to or what you're going through. So I wonder if it's sort of a combination, the continued interest, is it a bit of a combination of those sort of two things, sort of what was happening in society, but also the accessibility of it?
00:08:53
Speaker 3: Absolutely. And I think that comes down to the aspect of shame, which is obviously really important to talk about in these conversations. And women's shame in particular for exploring any kind of aspect of their own sexuality and imagination. So the kind of anonymity that we have, as you say, you know, with book covers and audio books is a huge part of that. But I think even further than that, this idea that we are having conversations just like this that are so big in the media helps to reduce the aspect of shame when it comes to consumption of this media. And one thing that I always remind people, other than the fact that smutting media is far from a new thing, but often a lot of the content that it you know, contained sexually explicit content has been consumed by men and especially rich and elite men throughout history for centuries before it got into women's hands and women writers. And it was only really when women came into the conversation that we had this understanding of it as being something that is not very intelligent and frivolous and at worst, you know, a danger to our minds and intellect. And so that's really where the shame of sexually explicit books started to emerge. And so there is something incredibly powerful about pushing back on that and, you know, taking a sense of joy and empowerment in happily listening to heated rivalry on the train.
00:10:26
Speaker 1: And actually, it'd be great maybe if we could just do a little bit of a history lesson, which I think is fascinating. So you were mentioning that erotic literature kind of evolved in the 18th century. Was that correct?
00:10:40
Speaker 3: Yes. So one of the, what we classify as the first pornographic novel in the English language is a book called Fanny Hill, which people may be familiar with. No.
00:10:52
Speaker 2: Is it any good? I think I have heard of it, but I haven't read it.
00:10:54
Speaker 1: Is it any good?
00:10:56
Speaker 3: Oh, absolutely. I highly recommend going back to the origins of this tradition and Fanny Hill is wonderful. Essentially, it follows a sex worker throughout London as she explores the world of pleasures and everything it has to offer. And Miss Fanny Hill is doing everything. She really tries out everything under the sun by the course of the novel and then, you know, remembers that she has a true love and, you know, hops back to him and saves him from ruin. So we love Fanny Hill. And one of the things I think is so beautiful about Fanny Hill is that in times it's really funny because it doesn't, um, uh, you know, uh, shy away from the fact that sex can be silly and funny and vulnerable. Um, the author John Cleland at some stages gets some, uh, uh, the actual autonomy of females entirely correct, which is lovely to see from novels that old. Um, but there's something great because I think when we, um, do talk about a lot of, um, sex in media, we think that it's like, you know, very serious, you know, it either has to be very, very highbrow, or it has to be very erotically driven and nothing else. But sex can be funny. And that's something that these early novels were doing right. So that's, you know, at 1749. It's a bit of a fun fact. On the day that one of the editions.
00:12:20
Speaker 5: Of it was released, An earthquake shook London and it made the church declare that the publication of Fanny Hill had brought down the wrath of God.
00:12:30
Speaker 3: And that was one of the reasons that it was banned for a while. So really made an impact. But this starts a bit of a tradition all throughout the 18th century as we start to write more and more. They weren't then called pornographic novels. They would later be called pornographic novels in England and France in particular. In France, we had a lot more very, very explicit pornography coming out. People may be familiar with the likes of Le Marquis de Sade, who wrote some incredibly, incredibly explicit content that comes with every content warning under the sun. But a lot of what these French pornographers were doing, remembering that at this time, these were just novels. We didn't have genres like we know today. These were just a part of the wide variety of books you could read. A lot of these books were really taking a swipe at the aristocracy. A lot of them, you know, Marie Antoinette was a prime victim of our smut campaign. There was smutty pamphlets and operas and books written about Marie Antoinette and all of the various, you know, lesbian parties that she would go to and all of her various dalliances with everyone but her husband. you know, her husband who they kind of pictured as this cuck of a king. But this was so impactful that one of the main reasons that a lot of historians say that we kind of developed such an anger towards the aristocracy was fuelled by these pornographic pamphlets. So much so that when Versailles was stormed, the revolutionaries actually instigated enacted some of the scenes that we saw from the most famous pornographic novels. So they were having a considerable impact on the public's perception. You know, this is before an age where we have a conversation about engaging critically in media. So there was no difference between reading something that was fictional and determining it to be, you know, fact.
00:14:39
Speaker 2: That is absolutely fascinating. And I feel like you can transport that to different parts of history, you know, moving forward. Sorry, is it still history when it's going forward? But you know what I mean. Even today with, you know, the files and that whole, what's it?
00:14:58
Speaker 3: Epstein?
00:14:58
Speaker 2: The Epstein class and all that kind of thing. You know, I find that quite interesting. It's almost a parallel kind of thought process.
00:15:06
Speaker 1: Isma, there were a couple of things that you said there that caught my attention. One, you said that Fanny Hill did everything.
00:15:12
Speaker 3: Yeah.
00:15:12
Speaker 1: And the reason that caught my attention is because we feel that this day and age we're so much more risque and we do so many more, you know, like, I don't know, we sort of think of once upon a time everyone thought sex was very conservative and things like that. But the point is that actually they were doing everything and playing with everything and kind of, you know, it's not, there's nothing really new when it comes maybe to writing about sex.
00:15:39
Speaker 3: Not at all. I am a big proponent of the fact that history is very circular. And this is part of the story, actually, is that around the time that we have this influx and this emergence of pornography, which is depicting... Everything that we would consider very radical today, that we were very open about. We didn't have a word for things like kinks and fetishes at that time, but Fanny is engaging in BDSM play. Her initial experience is with a woman in bed. She was in group play, toys, items. Around the same time in this 18th century, spanking, for instance, became known as the English vice because it was so prolifically practiced all throughout England, particularly in London. You could go to brothels in London at lunchtime for a quick spanking and go on your way. They thought it was really good for your overall health, particularly for men. So around the post-revolutionary period, if we're saying that pornography really had its hand in causing a lot of these revolutionary attitudes, there is this fear of further revolution creeping into England. And one of the, you know, things that we start to do is we really start to clean up our act politically. There is, we see that conservative shift really start to happen. And this is why we often call it the long 18th century, because in many ways, we're still trying to unlearn some of the attitudes that we developed throughout this time. This is when we start to define words like homosexuality, kinks fetishes and importantly we give these words a um well give these activities a word um not to understand these behaviors but to diagnose perversion to determine what is normal and what is not normal right and so when we start to do that then we have this attitude of well we need to behave correctly you know marriage is now something that only happens in the bed with your husband, and that is it. And we go away from a more sexually liberal attitude that we were seeing in the early 18th century in many places. And, you know, I also remind people that at this time, in the 1600s, 1700s, Across Europe, you could just go buy dildos at markets.
00:18:08
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've seen them in museums.
00:18:10
Speaker 3: Yes. And, you know, we've had a huge flashback into sex toys being a big part of our life now, but in many ways, you know, we still can't talk about them in a lot of media. But go back 300 or so years ago, you could just pop out and get it with your carrots and your cabbages.
00:18:30
Speaker 1: I love it. Sorry, the other thing I just really quickly wanted to ask was, when it came to the erotic literature, when it began, was it, was it all about the male gaze? Was it written by men for men? Or, you know, listening to you talk about Fanny Hill, it sounds like a woman could kind of read this book and enjoy it.
00:18:46
Speaker 3: I don't, Yes, there's a bit of a mix of both because obviously, you know, we have a restriction on a lot of women that were able to write at the time. That's not to say we didn't have women who were writing these. We have a fair few that are under, you know, as Virginia Woolf says, if a non was often a woman. And a lot of our publications that came out under that time that did come out anonymously could well have been for women. They often tend to be our ones that are very... they kind of have that more female gaze to them. What's fascinating about the likes of Fanny Hill and other, uh, you know, uh, big, uh, pornographic novels of the time, uh, that we say as literary scholars is very often these are, and they're nearly always a woman's perspective and they're written, uh, in a way that's very queer. Um, so often Fanny Hill has been called a, um, an attempt at literary cross-dressing, for instance. And there was, you know, a lot of rumours about John Cleland, the author's own sexuality. And so I also think that there is a situation there where while they may not always have been written for women and with women in mind, often they're men who are potentially a towards women and potentially the relationships they have. But of course, you know, we also, at the same time, we get the rise of the romance novel, which, uh, you know, was seen as the same thing like, uh, Pamela and Clarissa. And this was when we saw women for the first time have a mass readership. Um, and it wasn't just, um, women wouldn't just read these books alone. They would get together in groups and read them all together, which was, you know, that's really where we see those first kind of initial bestsellers. And at times, you know, these novels were– they can get very explicit as well. But then that brings us not too far from that to the likes of Jane Austen, who at the time that.
00:20:52
Speaker 1: She was writing– She was naughty, wasn't she?
00:20:55
Speaker 3: She was incredibly naughty. She was considered as– dangerous and in many ways classified as pornography. Pride and Prejudice would have been considered the erotica of its age. And what I find really fascinating when you go back through literary criticism of that time is that critics were talking the exact same about Pride and Prejudice as we talk about fairy smut novels today. They really thought that at best Jane Austen was this light and frivolous read and and at worst could be a danger to the intellect and reason of women because it would send our imagination so wild that we would lose all control of our libido.
00:21:37
Speaker 1: I'm really embarrassed to have to ask this question, but what is a fairy smut novel?
00:21:43
Speaker 2: Francesca.
00:21:45
Speaker 1: What have I missed?
00:21:48
Speaker 2: Well, it's just that it is what it is, fairy smut.
00:21:53
Speaker 3: Fairy smut.
00:21:54
Speaker 1: Like fairies, like elves fairies. what are we talking about.
00:21:59
Speaker 3: Well a court of thorns and roses is one of uh i think one of the book series that took off uh quite prolifically around 2022 i would say um and it's a series by an author called sarah j mass and essentially uh over the course of five novels uh she explores the a fairy world, but people aren't reading it for the fairy politics, I would say, that much.
00:22:22
Speaker 1: All right, so we are in a fairy, okay.
00:22:24
Speaker 2: I didn't know whether they meant, I guess it could mean something else. It's not a genre I've really read. My daughter's always trying to get me to read more the ones with sport associated with them, and there seems to be a large genre of that as well, sports and same-sex stuff, and often men in the same sex, you know. Hence heated rivalry. But there's another great Australian one with two football players. It's that taboo. I think it's still pushing those taboos. And I was thinking about that when you said about how things changed and we started to, you know, make words like homosexually perverse and things like that. It's just silly, isn't it? Because it's a veneer. It's all still happening. It's just being pushed into another quieter place.
00:23:13
Speaker 3: Absolutely. And that, you know, when it comes down to coining words, that's often what happens. It's very rare throughout history that we're coining a term when it comes to human behavior because we're very excited about it.
00:23:28
Speaker 2: You know.
00:23:30
Speaker 3: And so that really is a case that once we have a word for homosexuality, then we have discussions and we have an understanding of from that point on, which is not that long ago, you know, this is only about 250 years we're talking about, where we now have an understanding of sexuality being something that, you know, is something that's innate, we're human, and not something that's just, you know, you had these behaviours or these dalliances with these people. And because, you know, in many ways, throughout most of history, we had a more fluid understanding of our sexuality. But now we have this diagnosis and this kind of imperative to try and cure people, which starts around that time.
00:24:17
Speaker 1: And lots of labels.
00:24:19
Speaker 3: Lots of labels all kind of appear around that. There's a kind of like rush for labels when we see the likes of, Freud and everyone coming on the scene and he decides to really bang out labels for everything that he can see. And a lot of those still exist. Thankfully, a lot of them have gone away. But that is really where we kind of see that very medical imperative come in, which we really still live with a lot of that today.
00:24:45
Speaker 1: So, Esme, what is it? What is it about fairy sex that attracts people? Is it escapism? Is it filling a gap in our lives?
00:25:00
Speaker 3: What is it? Escapism is a huge part of it. And that is something that goes along with any kind of sexual fantasy. You know, for instance, I would classify Fifty Shades of Grey as a fantasy novel because that kind of– world of such immense wealth and being swept away on your first date on a helicopter is a fantastical situation. So often a lot of the most high performing romance or sexual content has an aspect of fantasy to it. And that isn't just now. You know, fairy smut's been around for many, many, many centuries. I've been missing out.
00:25:40
Speaker 2: You're thinking about Tinkerbell in a whole other way aren't you Francesca.
00:25:45
Speaker 3: I mean Tinkerbell Tinkerbell's a very popular Halloween costume for a reason I suppose.
00:25:52
Speaker 1: Oh I didn't know the things we're learning this is putting a whole new perspective on a lot of things but it's really interesting that you mention that that it's often sort of maybe aristocrats or high society there's that element of camp maybe to it and then there's just these sexual encounters and And I've been totally drawn to the TV show Rivals because I've just loved going back into that Jilly Cooper 80s world. And it is, it's just fun, light escapism compared to what's on the front page of the newspaper each day.
00:26:23
Speaker 3: Absolutely. And, you know, I would say stuff like Bridgerton, for instance, that's been a huge aspect of our escapism over the last few years. We just recently had a a new reimagining of my brilliant career come out, which has been wonderful. Really, really. And, you know, we're seeing a lot of, like, reinsertion of sexual content into that book as well. I think we're seeing this in a lot of different aspects of what we consume. But in a world where we are waking up, I would say, with a lot of anxiety every time we open our phones and read what's happened in the news, it's only... it's only a pattern, I would say, that we would suddenly turn to escapist fantasies, namely sexual ones, because we've done that all throughout history. The best way to kind of you know, pull away from the world is to consume yourself in some fairy smut.
00:27:21
Speaker 2: And I think it's not even just fantasy. There's a certain comfort in it because as, you know, Francesco, I have re-watched. If I'm feeling a bit down, I'll re-watch a bit of my favourite episodes of Heated Wife.
00:27:32
Speaker 3: How many times? Honestly, this is.
00:27:34
Speaker 2: I'm not even an exception. Go on, tell us how many times have you watched that series? No, I can't. I wouldn't even know. But I don't watch the whole series over again. I just watch certain feel-good episodes.
00:27:45
Speaker 4: Yeah.
00:27:45
Speaker 1: You don't go straight to the sex bits.
00:27:47
Speaker 2: No, no.
00:27:48
Speaker 3: Just checking. No, she's episode five only.
00:27:51
Speaker 2: Wait, which one's episode five? Is that when he says, I'm going to the cottage?
00:27:56
Speaker 3: Yes. I think that's the one that's free of all sex. The one episode.
00:27:59
Speaker 2: Yeah. It's just so adorable. I guess it's that, you know, I mean, there must be a lot of gay sportsmen who can never come out. So there's also that kind of, you know, and we know it's not real, but if it only were, you know, if people were still free to be completely who they are.
00:28:18
Speaker 3: Well, do you know what? There was a recent social media survey about how many women have left their husbands after watching Heated Rivalry. And I think it actually has a lot to do with the fact that the depiction of romance, which I think is so important for so many reasons within Heated Rivalry, really shows this, by the end, this really intense caring relationship. We have two people who just to the ends of the earth would want to care and nurture for one another. And what we see is such a beautiful evolution of something that starts as very physical. And I think that's important in depictions of queer relationships because often, especially in male homosexual scenes, casual queer intimacy is very prolific. And so seeing something like that develop so movingly to something that by the final episodes they are stripped of sex and we just have the vulnerabilities of these two men really coming to the surface and then nurturing each other through it. And it's such, I can see why so many people left their husbands.
00:29:28
Speaker 2: It's really interesting because I know so many people who have tried to watch it and gone, oh, I can't get past, I just couldn't get past the second episode. I'm like, I know it sounds crazy, but you've.
00:29:36
Speaker 3: Got to keep going.
00:29:37
Speaker 1: Because I was a bit the same. Lou said to me, you've got to watch.
00:29:39
Speaker 2: It.
00:29:40
Speaker 1: And I said, I went, Lou, really? Have I got time for this?
00:29:43
Speaker 5: You know?
00:29:44
Speaker 1: And then I got, and then I got hooked. And then as you say, the relationships, which became this really, the story sort of moves and it becomes this really beautiful love story. And I suppose that's why it hit such a nerve. It's, it's, it's, we're seeing something a little bit different in the sense you've got two sports people who can't be themselves who are out there showing a love story. And I imagine that was really the thing that has turned it into this global sensation.
00:30:14
Speaker 3: Absolutely. It's the reverse of your slow burn, which I think is really important for representations of our queer community in Um, there was, I know there was so many people in my life that were so deeply moved by feeling, um, it's like their journey of coming out represented. Um, we, we, we, I think, you know, it can be very easy to, um, believe that we're now so removed from the shame that exists around, um, um, uh, a lot of the LGBTQ plus community, because, uh, you know, hopefully if we have people in our lives, it doesn't feel that way anymore, but, um, the amount of people that are still living with the shame they had to carry with them for so many years that can relate to the journey of these men and, you know, potentially coming out to their, to their best friend, finding solace in someone else who's going through the same situation. And I'm really looking forward to seeing the next season to see how they're going to navigate this world of coming out, not coming out. We have the beautiful storyline of, scott hunter the star player you know coming out so publicly and so beautifully and we're seeing different representations of what it can mean to embrace um your own sexuality or your own sense of self and that there's no right or wrong way there could be big public declarations or often it can just be a more slow and vulnerable thing that you have to do alongside a partner and a friend.
00:31:41
Speaker 1: You're listening to The Little Things, and our guest is author and sex historian Esme Louise James, talking about the increase in demand for erotic fiction. We'll be back after the break.
00:32:00
Speaker 3: When we were talking.
00:32:01
Speaker 1: About shame earlier, is the shame associated with erotic literature more of a reflection of who we are in our situation? Or is it the shame of, I've picked up, I'm reading this book?
00:32:16
Speaker 3: I think it's a bit of both. We still are, you know, in that long 18th century, we're still unlearning a lot of shame when it comes to our bodies and our sexuality. I think it's wonderful that we're seeing more open conversations to do with, you know, more public conversations of love and relationships and on podcasts and media and everything. Because more than anything, it's conversation that can start to erase this stigma. There's still so many people. I do a lot of work alongside my mum, who's a statistician, and we recently did a sexistics survey, as we call it. Ooh, love it. Yeah, a lot of fun. And out of the 15,000 people that were on our recent survey, 97% of them said that they wanted sex education to continue into adulthood forever. And they wanted that education to come from forms that were more innovative, like social media, podcasts, books, things like that, rather than your traditional kind of educational setting. And that speaks so much, I believe, to the fact that so many of us feel like we still don't know our own bodies and our desires and how we love and how we lust. And that's because often our education stops in high school. And it should go without saying that teachings of how to hold hands at recess are a bit different to what sex looks like after 50.
00:33:40
Speaker 4: That's really interesting, that survey. Out of curiosity, though, how do they feel about kind of traditional pornography, which, of course, we are a little bit concerned about as a mother with teenagers and sons and daughters and things, about how they're being told how to have sex?
00:34:00
Speaker 3: There is a real shift, a real pendulum shift that we've seen in pornographic consumption. You know, around the 2010s, we were seeing a bit of, it was almost like an empowerment movement for women to claim that they watched porn as well. And, you know, kind of fixing the gender gap of who says they watch porn. And now very quickly in that conversation, we've seen a swap the opposite way. And I think a lot of this, again, happened after COVID. So during COVID, again, one of the studies that we and many other people did was about how sexual behavior changed in COVID. And one thing that is, I still find quite hilarious. is that you can tell when every city in Australia went into lockdown by an almost 300% increase in pornographic access that day. And so sex historians of the future don't even need to look at any political documents. We can tell exactly when every country was, every state rather, was shut down.
00:34:59
Speaker 2: So people were buying puppies and they were looking at porn.
00:35:02
Speaker 1: And making sourdough.
00:35:04
Speaker 3: Absolutely. Sale of sex toys skyrocketed. consumption of pornographic media skyrocketed. And I think a lot of that also has probably influenced this escalation in conversations about sex and sexuality. Because once we're let out of our house, that doesn't suddenly all go away, everything that we learned and did.
00:35:28
Speaker 1: You really, Lou was really curious to know whether with this rise of erotic fiction, whether people were having better sex and we weren't sure whether there'd be any way to be able.
00:35:36
Speaker 4: To test that.
00:35:37
Speaker 1: But since you've got the statistician, you know, the mum, and you've done the survey, I don't know whether you asked that question or not.
00:35:43
Speaker 3: Oh, do you know what? You absolutely can. So one of the, our most recent survey, which was completed at the top of last year, one of the things that we looked at as well, alongside, you know, how people... you know, want to gain sexual education and what they learn from books and stuff like that was also around how that translates into their own intimate lives. One thing that was really fascinating for us throughout this was that many people still say that they can't talk to their partners about sex. And that's important because a lot of people can talk to, not a lot of people, but people are most likely to kind of talk to friends about um and their partner is the most difficult person uh for a lot of people to speak with and then we allowed people to not only um uh you know you know tick a box but also kind of give us some qualitative data and what people were saying in the comments about that was that they just didn't know about how to go about having these conversations of what they wanted with their partner and while you can you know read the sexual fantasy and reading photographic media is wonderful for learning about your own sexuality, about what you like and what you don't like and what you want to try. We know that. That is something that comes up time and time again, especially for women who are consuming this media, whether through audiobooks. But what people are still struggling to do is then take that, what they've learned about themselves, and communicate to their partners, whoever they may be. And that really comes down to this Yeah, but it comes down to that education aspect, right?
00:37:24
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, but I'm just thinking, and this is a really big generalisation, so just take it as that, but if young men are watching quite full-on porn and it's sometimes a bit troubling and a little bit dangerous or risque or even outright violent, and girls are reading Very Smart, how does that come together in the bedroom?
00:37:50
Speaker 3: One thing that I would recommend to any men is that at the moment with this prolific rise in the likes of heated rivalry, Bridgerton, very smart, what be it, if so many women are saying that this is– they are loving this, they are enjoying this, give it a read. Yeah.
00:38:14
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:38:15
Speaker 3: Give it a read. You know, we keep on putting these books into women's only media. But if that is what is resonating with us, and if you really want to be a stallion in the bedroom, go give it a read. You're seeing, you know, a big kickback from, I think, the conversations that we're having about the manosphere and everything. A lot of men who are, you know, kind of doing the work to unlearn that more toxic behavior are turning away from things like explicit pornography and But again, it's just a case of being able to have these conversations in the forefront because how are young boys in particular meant to know how to access good or ethical pornographic media if we're not having those conversations? It's so true.
00:39:01
Speaker 2: I mean, it can only be a win-win, right?
00:39:03
Speaker 4: Yeah.
00:39:04
Speaker 2: Exactly.
00:39:05
Speaker 1: They could be horrified for a moment or two and then go away and read it. We should also probably just cover off Who is reading this book? Is there a demographic? Is there an age group? I know that a friend of mine was saying that, you know, such a range of people are reading this and that their husband was quite shocked, bordering on horrified when he picked up. a book that she was reading and read it. So who is, it's not my partner, by the way, but who is reading? Is it a wide range of age and demographics and?
00:39:48
Speaker 3: We are. It's definitely a huge, a huge range of demographics. But most popular is a lot of women and non-binary readers. They are the biggest demographic, but have also historically for many years been the biggest demographic of romance media. And as much as, you know, again, we like to classify it as frivolous. The romance wheelhouse of Mills and Boone have really kept the printing press alive for the last 50 years. These are our biggest sellers and always have been. We just, you know, don't like to celebrate it as much. So women and non-binary people are really high up there. But we are now finally seeing an increase in men coming on board. And I think that also has to do, you know, as we came back to earlier about the fact that you can hide the book that you're reading. In some of the work I did recently, one of the men's submissions came and said that he loves reading this Court of Thorns and Roses series, for instance, but he feels like he has to hide it and he's ashamed of his co-workers finding out that he was reading it. So I think if we're talking about shame, there's still definitely a shame around men consuming this kind of media at the moment because we have classified it as dainty and feminine. So the best thing that we can possibly do is try and erase that assumption. Just like things like Game of Thrones are considered for everyone, so these books should be for everyone as well.
00:41:17
Speaker 1: And you've written your own book, Becoming Venus.
00:41:20
Speaker 2: I have.
00:41:20
Speaker 1: Yes, which is available here at Enamored Bookstore. Tell us what drove you to do it. Well, I think it's probably clear what drove you to do it.
00:41:29
Speaker 2: You've read enough.
00:41:30
Speaker 1: You thought, I can give this a whirl.
00:41:33
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think after spending so long studying the history of pornographic novels, I should really try my hand in writing my own. But I really wanted to, for a long time, attempt the feminist Fifty Shades of Grey. I am also E.L. James, which was the bane of my life as an aspiring author at 14 when I got up at assembly and told everyone I'd written a book at 14. I got called into the principal's office because everyone went to look it up and they had complaints from the parents because they thought I was peddling Fifty Shades of Grey. I would be a much richer woman and that would be wonderful. But I think, you know, to kind of get my revenge on being on the shadows, I've attempted to write this novel, which essentially follows Rose, who's a PhD student in Melbourne, who has just gone through a breakup and decides to impulsively reach out to a hookup of five years earlier. And this one impulsive message ends up sending her on a very unexpected journey through the various secret underground clubs of Melbourne. And it really centers around her own journey becoming her and using or finding a way to kind of through understanding her own sexuality, getting a better sense of who she is and her place in the world. In many ways, it's loosely an adaptation of Fanny Hill. So if you read Fanny Hill alongside it or before and after, you'll see some modernisations of the famous scenes of Fanny Hill in it throughout. So it's got a bit of everything.
00:43:12
Speaker 2: And have you left room for it to be a series?
00:43:15
Speaker 3: Absolutely. I just got the green light to start ticking away at book two now, which is very exciting.
00:43:22
Speaker 2: Oh, that's so wonderful.
00:43:25
Speaker 3: Thank you very much.
00:43:26
Speaker 2: I mean, what role do you see erotic play, fiction playing into the future? Do you expect the demand to keep growing?
00:43:34
Speaker 3: I hope it does. But as I say, history is always very circular. So we could be seeing a rise now. And then I do think we're already seeing a very strong conservative kickback. But one thing that we're in a unique position in history is is that we have access to such immediate forms of information and technology that we've never seen before. So if we're able to have conversations like this that are able to reach people about the importance of erotica, that it's not just something to quickly get your rocks off before bed, erotica can be a ways to understand more about ourselves, a way to strengthen our connection to our partner, It can be a way, as we've seen throughout history, to inspire revolution. And it can be a way to challenge our philosophical beliefs. There's a lot of strengths to erotica that are very unique to the genre. By nature, it is stimulating, whether that's physically, intellectually, or for the imagination. And that is something that is so truly powerful for the genre. So I hope it continues to grow. And that will only happen if we continue to kind of understand the importance of it.
00:44:55
Speaker 4: Dr.
00:44:56
Speaker 1: Esme Louise James, it has been a delight to talk to you. I thought I was sort of quite switched on, but it turns out I've got a lot to learn about smutty media and I shall head on forth and do that.
00:45:09
Speaker 3: But thank you.
00:45:10
Speaker 1: It's been really wonderful to talk to you. Really lovely to meet you and best of luck with the book.
00:45:14
Speaker 3: Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.
00:45:16
Speaker 2: Such an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much.
00:45:28
Speaker 1: I just love that term, smutty media.
00:45:29
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've written it down. I mean, I've heard it a million times. It's just very representative.
00:45:36
Speaker 1: I think so. I think so. And it is smutty. And that's okay, I think, as opposed to the smutty media, which isn't okay. I'm so sorry. I'm very embarrassed about not knowing about fairy sex. I'm just saying off here. Did she think it was sex on a fairy?
00:45:53
Speaker 2: No, I didn't.
00:45:55
Speaker 1: I was just wanting to clarify that we were in a sort of a little mythical world there with fairies.
00:45:59
Speaker 2: I mean, I couldn't have explained it because I've only heard the term and seen a couple of the books in my little browsing of those types of wonderful bookshops.
00:46:08
Speaker 4: Yeah.
00:46:10
Speaker 2: And it's not a genre. I can't really imagine getting into it. But I do know people do.
00:46:14
Speaker 1: The other fascinating thing Isamay said was, you know, I've always, I'm going to be really honest, I've always looked down on Mills and Boone's books. right Mills and Boone I've always kind of gone I wouldn't be seeing dead reading one of those books you know but she made a really good point there that they've kept the printing the publishing industry alive for sort of 50 decades or so you know what.
00:46:35
Speaker 2: Was it what were they the 70s and 80s was that Mills and.
00:46:37
Speaker 1: Boone yeah I think so they were always in they were always in doctors you know they'd be in the magazine racks at doctors clinics and the dentists and things.
00:46:44
Speaker 2: Like that you know and I'd always go.
00:46:46
Speaker 1: I can't pick that up here in the you know the waiting room Which is silly.
00:46:52
Speaker 2: Think of books that felt a bit taboo from our lives. But yeah, that is weird. Although they were fairly tame, Meals and Beans.
00:47:02
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think so.
00:47:03
Speaker 2: I think so.
00:47:03
Speaker 1: But I think it's great that we're all enjoying a lot more sort of bonk fests on the bonk buster and the bonk fest. Bit of erotica. literacy and the TV shows and things like that, broadening everybody's horizons.
00:47:18
Speaker 2: We didn't go into the downsides, which I'm sure, you know, there may be some. But I think overall, what I really love about it is that young women are, you know, young and old. People are engaging in it and enjoying it. And maybe they are learning something about what they like. And maybe if they can translate that to their partner, people might be Having a bit better sex.
00:47:41
Speaker 1: There we go.
00:47:42
Speaker 2: Or if not, at least a bit of time on their own.
00:47:44
Speaker 1: If you'd like to hear more from Esme, Kinky History is her podcast and the novel Becoming Venus is available now. You can get it at the Enamid bookstore. And they have a fantastic range of erotic literature if you're interested in delving into something new.
00:47:59
Speaker 2: Excellent for gifts for that person who's got everything.
00:48:02
Speaker 1: Okay, there we go. Thanks for joining us on our New Zealand Herald podcast series, The Little Things. We hope you share this podcast with the women in your life so we can all broaden our reading lists and spice up book clubs.
00:48:12
Speaker 2: A little bit. You can follow this podcast on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts. And for more episodes from us on other topics, head to nzherald.co.nz.
00:48:21
Speaker 1: And we'll catch you next time on The Little Things.
