61. A Relationship Beyond Repair: The Ciccone Case Unraveled

WEBVTT
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In October, 2003, a couple left a counseling session at Mountain Home Air Force Base and drove to a home in rural Elmore County.
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Within hours, a woman was dead along Ditto Creek Road.
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After being struck by a car, the driver was her husband and the case that followed, focused on what happened in the moments between an argument and the impact
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already.
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Unbelievable.
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All right, everyone, welcome back to another episode of The Lethal Library.
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I'm Stephanie.
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And I'm Danny.
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And we're here to tell you yet another true crime tale straight out of the 2 0 8 AKA Idaho.
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we like to focus on Idaho cases and cases in the Pacific Northwest.
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we've done a lot of death row cases, but that isn't all that we cover.
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And Danny here does all the research.
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She's incredible.
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And I'm just here to hear the story and say, swear words is my, on my job description, which I've just reviewed because I'm falling short.
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Um,
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we'll have your quarterly review
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afterwards.
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Oh, I'm nervous.
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Shit, I didn't know that was part of our, our, our appointment tonight.
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but yeah, so Danny, please take it away.
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Sources used today are articles from the Idaho Statesmen, the Associated Press and Court Records.
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I love to get me a hold if they have some appeals and court records.
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Mm-hmm.
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That give me lots of juice.
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So
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match onto them.
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Yeah.
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and this is gonna be a little court heavy on the backside, because there was a new law and so it's kind of tested and Okay.
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Yeah.
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I do need to interject and just say that, there is breaking news in the Lethal Library studio, the bun.
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Isn't present, but can you see this princess side braid?
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What the hell?
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So we are, you know, just, we're just experimenting and I just, I came over and daddy had her hair like this and I was like, that's amazing.
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And so Danny's being extra comfy.
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The bun was not bunning today.
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You know how hair do be doing that sometimes.
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So, um, we are on YouTube now, so you could watch this if you want and see every detail and terrible facial expression that I make.
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And, you know, I might not even catch that I like picked my nose or something.
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So Hey Easter eggs.
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and check out all of our fun stuff that we have in our studio because it is curated.
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We have done it.
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It was fun.
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It was fun doing it.
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Ah, absolutely.
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We put a lot of hard work into it.
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Yeah.
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Went and got weird shit at school.
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Weird shit.
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School.
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Alright, Danny, back to you.
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In June, 1996, Albert Ciccone enlisted in the United States Air Force at the age of 19.
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Over the years, he was assigned to various duty stations, but spent much of his career at Mountain Home Air Force Base in Idaho, where he worked as a staff sergeant with the component maintenance squadron.
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Nailed it.
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Very nice.
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In early 2003 while living in Mountain Home, Ciccone met Kathleen Terry and their relationship.
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It progressed quickly.
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Really?
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Mm-hmm.
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They began living together and were married on August 29th, 2003.
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And when did they meet?
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In oh
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three?
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in, uh, what I could find was early 2003, and I don't know if that's January, I don't know if that's March.
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It could
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be earliest January.
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It could be earliest this January 1st.
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And you know what I'll say, and this isn't a dig, I, it's completely logical.
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Any of those in like the armed forces you get, if you're married.
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you get different things, benefits, really, and considerations.
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And so I'm not saying it's a bad thing and oftentimes it's not.
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But especially when you have younger kids.
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Mm-hmm.
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Fresh outta high school frontal lobe, not quite developed.
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It can.
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I mean, the math is math.
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Mm-hmm.
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Why wouldn't you try to find a partner immediately and qualify for better housing?
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Better pay.
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Hello?
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And you might like each other.
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I mean, we all know the first six months.
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Mm-hmm.
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How, how that fun that can be
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Oh yeah.
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If it's fun, right?
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Yeah.
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And the girl's got a, you know, a guy with a steady job.
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the guy's got a wife that can take care of things if he's deployed, it's, it can be extremely mutual, mutually beneficial.
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Mm-hmm.
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And that's not a bad thing, but it can lead to folks trying to shack up real quick.
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And I'm, so, I don't think that it's that quick under those standards.
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'cause most kids within their first six months of like, out of bootcamp and everything wifed up.
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And when I say kids, guys or gals wiped up, husbanded up immediately.
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So he started.
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Well, he had been in it,
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90.
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He's 96.
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Yeah.
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So he went and did all of his
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duties.
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So this, he, people would probably think, are you gonna be an old spinster?
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Not really.
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Men don't get that.
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But like, why aren't you married?
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Right.
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That's a lot of time to spend without getting those benefits.
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Yeah.
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I think he was out mm-hmm.
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Being station, doing the thing, and you gotta remember what time this was 2003
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Mm.
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Marine war kids.
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Scaly.
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Yeah.
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Uh, that we had all the nine 11 stuff.
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Mm-hmm.
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And so we were out over there in,
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it was not a, it wasn't looking, it wasn't as appealing as it is in times of peace.
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Sure.
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Yeah, yeah,
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yeah.
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You're right.
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Within two weeks of marriage, Kathleen learned she was pregnant.
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Wowy.
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Wow.
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In the short weeks that followed, the relationship was marked by repeated arguments and separations.
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In September of 2003, after an argument, Ciccone attempted suicide.
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Oh my gosh.
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This is not, this is escalated far too quickly.
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It really,
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which is
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crazy
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given how I really do feel that some might think this is quick, but under these standards it isn't nearly as quick as some,
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I wasn't even in the military
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sometimes, you know, and sometimes you just get her done or sometimes your heart takes a hold.
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That happens to a lot of people.
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he survived and was admitted to Intermountain Hospital in Boise for psychiatric treatment.
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After his release, he learned that Kathleen had been unfaithful during one of their separations.
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And he had contracted a sexually transmitted infection,
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which I know that so many women have gone through that.
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And first of all, the betrayal, the emotional turmoil, and then knowing that you've been physically harmed.
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I mean, truly, maybe some people will think that that sounds like woke or something to say it that way.
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But no, someone's introduced a disease to you that you trusted
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and you don't.
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I don't know what this, there are some diseases that do not go away.
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No.
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And you can
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even, but it is, spec is specifically said in infection.
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Mm-hmm.
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No.
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So I'm not a disease.
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We're hoping it's curable.
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Right.
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Yeah.
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I think that that is,'cause growing up we just heard STDs.
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Mm-hmm.
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Everything was a disease.
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but this said specifically infection.
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So, um,
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but still just knowing that,
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and he had just went through that suicide attempt and I'm not.
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Giving him any grace or anything.
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But
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that
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would, to come back from that and then find out that you are sick because your partner cheated on you is a significant mm-hmm.
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Mm-hmm.
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It's no walk in the park, that's for sure.
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That's tough.
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Another argument followed, and the, and the couple separated again, within about a week, they tried to reconcile,
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this is hot and cold.
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This,
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I'm
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so, I'm so in relief that this isn't my life and this was my life for a while, and you think that this is normal and that this is what everyone's going through, and that you should fight to save and you should do everything.
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And people are, you know, e everyone has flaws.
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Let it go.
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Let it go.
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And if you get someone that's taking you outta your character
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mm-hmm.
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Regularly, he or she is not the one, right.
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Cis or bro like.
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Yeah,
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absolutely.
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on October 16th, 2003, Koe and Kathleen attended a counseling session with a civilian social worker employed by the Air Force.
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Like, let's get you kids some help.
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Right?
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Great.
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Yeah.
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Let's use our resources.
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During the session, the counselor attempted to, and I, I don't, I'm not sure what this exactly means, so, but my research, it said the counselor attempted to provoke Ciccone by pressing him on issues in the relationship.
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I think I do know what it means.
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So you're getting them to emulate what they're doing behind closed doors in a, in a safe place.
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Like not, but you're challenging them.
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I, there's some of those, I think that
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would've been a better word.
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Yeah.
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Challenging than provoke.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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So you've seen probably some of those therapy shows.
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I have only on TikTok with that one doctor that does the, where she's like, tell me more like.
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What is her name?
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I don't know.
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She's really cool.
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But you see that, she's like, where's that coming from?
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Explain more the feeling and making, she was pressing him.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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At one point, Ciccone became upset enough to leave the room.
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I,
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so she, he's been challenged.
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Yeah.
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He later returned and continued the session.
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By the end of the appointment, the couple appeared to be calm and they left together.
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Okay.
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So you, we think at all, all may not be well, but there's, we're
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at a
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stable
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place
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again.
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We're, we're stable.
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Mm-hmm.
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Yeah.
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Sure.
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After leaving the base, they stopped a Burger King to grab a bite to eat.
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They then drove to Kathleen's mother's house.
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Where Kathleen had been staying during their separation after they arrived, another
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argument began.
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They're not ready.
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And you know, it's not good when it's still happening in front of family.
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I'm not saying it can never happen in front of family, but when that, when it starts creeping over to, well, to where you can't, and I think people will agree, but where you can't be like, we can have this discussion later, right?
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Like, let's just get, get this or get that.
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And I, this is isn't the appropriate time or place when it's bleeding over.
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Right.
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And,
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but there's no, there's like no SelfControl mm-hmm.
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Of like, yeah.
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That, that's, you're in a bad spot.
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It's no good if there's no self.
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I mean, and I, I don't know if everybody's, I have definitely been through this.
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You get in a little tense, little even spat mm-hmm.
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When you're getting ready to go somewhere.
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Right.
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It could be over.
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How are you loading the food?
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We're ta Why would you put that on the bottom of the bed?
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Like it could be something, so I've
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told you this before, or Hello, why did you put the milk on top of the bread?
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Right.
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Are we
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whatever
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you, whatever, whatever that situation is or Yeah.
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Or we are gonna be late, or whatever that little spat is with your partner, but you get there
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mm-hmm.
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And you put on a smiley face
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and, and you, if it needs to be addressed later, you address it.
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Or sometimes you're like,
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most of the time it goes away.
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Tensions were high.
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Tensions were high, it wasn't.
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Mm-hmm.
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Listen, I know that like Rick and I have had this several times and he's gotten so much better.
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So I do have to give him props.
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But Rick is of the belief that if you are not early, you're late.
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I'm of the belief that I'd love to show up right on time.
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That's when they asked us to be there.
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and or sometimes there's.
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An invite you get where there isn't, they're like show up between four and seven.
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That is not a strict time.
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They want people coming in and out, like for a graduation.
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Like it's just a pop-in time.
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You come in when you can, I'm
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showing up at 3 45 if it starts
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at four.
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Yeah.
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And that is Rick.
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And listen, I know that we differ this way and so I have, we've both given each other a lot of grace.
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But I will even try to accommodate and be like, okay, well we, I, if I get ready by this time, then we could be there 10 minutes early.
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Sure.
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Whatever.
00:13:50.259 --> 00:13:59.169
And when, I don't even need, when we don't even need to leave for 15 more minutes and I'm on the last steps of my routine, I have, I have a very set routine.
00:13:59.169 --> 00:14:03.460
So you know, if I'm on this layer of my hair, we're nearly there.
00:14:03.519 --> 00:14:04.659
This is the last step.
00:14:05.110 --> 00:14:07.960
This is the last step besides popping on whatever shirt I'm gonna wear.
00:14:08.559 --> 00:14:16.090
Like, we're very close and you have someone come in the bathroom and they're like, are you done yet?
00:14:17.889 --> 00:14:19.059
How, how we doing?
00:14:20.649 --> 00:14:21.340
What do you mean?
00:14:21.340 --> 00:14:22.299
How we doing?
00:14:22.504 --> 00:14:26.409
I, I have two curls left that are gonna take me 30 seconds.
00:14:26.620 --> 00:14:29.080
My shirt's gonna be on in another 30 seconds.
00:14:29.080 --> 00:14:33.370
I'm grabbing my bag and we're going, we've been at it 15 years.
00:14:33.370 --> 00:14:36.340
Folks, it, we know the, my dogs know the routine.
00:14:36.789 --> 00:14:40.779
They know exactly as soon as I get to that stuff, they're like, okay, I'm going to my room.
00:14:41.110 --> 00:14:42.610
You're gonna bring me my food.
00:14:42.789 --> 00:14:44.289
they know what's going on.
00:14:45.070 --> 00:14:47.740
And so one, is that helpful?
00:14:48.399 --> 00:14:51.429
No, there's nothing that you, I'm a very efficient person.
00:14:51.639 --> 00:14:54.490
There's nothing you could say that could make this physically go faster.
00:14:54.700 --> 00:14:57.159
There's nothing I could do to make it go faster.
00:14:57.700 --> 00:14:58.330
Two.
00:14:59.769 --> 00:15:00.220
What?
00:15:00.220 --> 00:15:03.580
Like it, it's just inflammatory.
00:15:03.970 --> 00:15:06.159
And then three, this is the kicker.
00:15:06.455 --> 00:15:12.610
This is, this doesn't happen very often, but it, every once in a while when it does, it makes me wanna flip a fucking table.
00:15:13.029 --> 00:15:13.629
So then.
00:15:14.065 --> 00:15:17.544
I'm working at M Speed, I'm working at peak efficiency.
00:15:17.725 --> 00:15:20.845
I am an absolutely oiled machine.
00:15:20.845 --> 00:15:23.095
'cause I'm like, okay, I'm trying to accommodate, right?
00:15:23.544 --> 00:15:24.715
And then I'm like, alright, let's go.
00:15:24.715 --> 00:15:29.815
Got the bag ready to go out the door, honey, have you seen my shoes?
00:15:33.625 --> 00:15:35.575
Oh my God, I can't find my keys.
00:15:39.894 --> 00:15:42.115
And I'm like, how?
00:15:42.894 --> 00:15:45.774
Absolutely fucking dare you.
00:15:46.735 --> 00:15:47.634
And it's rare.
00:15:47.784 --> 00:15:47.995
I
00:15:48.029 --> 00:15:49.404
rushed my last two curls.
00:15:49.495 --> 00:15:50.245
Yes, I lux
00:15:50.245 --> 00:15:51.534
feed for this shit.
00:15:51.710 --> 00:15:54.684
I have to let you know, like Rick and I have talked about this.
00:15:54.684 --> 00:15:56.215
I'm not shitting on him at all.
00:15:56.215 --> 00:15:58.404
He's so incredibly fantastic.
00:15:58.404 --> 00:15:59.095
Wonderful.
00:15:59.664 --> 00:16:03.835
This is why I, I always say you have to choose, choose your flaws that you're willing to live with.
00:16:03.835 --> 00:16:05.304
I'm totally willing to live with this.
00:16:05.424 --> 00:16:09.054
It is not a huge deal, but it's just one of those things it still gets, you're like.
00:16:10.779 --> 00:16:11.740
Pardon the fuck.
00:16:14.409 --> 00:16:16.720
I thought that we were a well-oiled machine.
00:16:16.870 --> 00:16:18.580
Ready to get the show on the road.
00:16:18.580 --> 00:16:19.929
Now we can't find shoes.
00:16:19.929 --> 00:16:20.110
Now.
00:16:20.110 --> 00:16:21.100
We can't find keys.
00:16:21.100 --> 00:16:22.360
And where's my cell phone?
00:16:22.360 --> 00:16:23.320
And oh gosh.
00:16:23.320 --> 00:16:24.429
Did we feed the dogs?
00:16:25.899 --> 00:16:29.134
These are all things that could have been done while you were busy walking
00:16:29.325 --> 00:16:30.174
into the bathroom.
00:16:31.254 --> 00:16:31.975
I know you, I
00:16:32.355 --> 00:16:32.575
Oh,
00:16:33.399 --> 00:16:33.669
oh shit.
00:16:33.700 --> 00:16:38.455
Anyway, that was a big sidetrack, but I know so many people can relate and it's all, it's, it's very relatable.
00:16:38.455 --> 00:16:39.309
It's all in good fun.
00:16:39.370 --> 00:16:40.750
Yeah, it's very relatable.
00:16:40.750 --> 00:16:42.370
It's just a silly, kooky little thing.
00:16:42.490 --> 00:16:45.220
And I have a feeling that this story is not silly and kooky.
00:16:45.220 --> 00:16:46.149
It's not silly and kook.
00:16:46.360 --> 00:16:46.720
No.
00:16:47.169 --> 00:16:49.179
So they had stopped to get the food.
00:16:50.049 --> 00:16:50.350
Yeah.
00:16:50.350 --> 00:16:50.950
Bk.
00:16:51.730 --> 00:16:52.179
Look at the
00:16:52.179 --> 00:16:52.419
restrain.
00:16:52.419 --> 00:16:52.629
Have it your
00:16:52.629 --> 00:16:52.960
way.
00:16:53.259 --> 00:16:54.250
Have it your way.
00:16:54.789 --> 00:16:56.320
Not even eating in the car.
00:16:56.590 --> 00:16:57.879
Totally would've ate in the car.
00:16:58.330 --> 00:17:00.129
I dunno if I've done that in my life.
00:17:00.179 --> 00:17:03.210
drove home and so they were, they were there.
00:17:03.309 --> 00:17:03.639
eating.
00:17:03.639 --> 00:17:15.519
When that, when that argument began, and during the argument, Kathleen threw her food at Oh shit, and then she left her mom's house and started walking down the road.
00:17:15.519 --> 00:17:17.650
She's like, oh, I could just totally, oh, this happened
00:17:17.650 --> 00:17:18.519
at the mom's
00:17:18.819 --> 00:17:19.660
throwing the food.
00:17:20.140 --> 00:17:20.589
Ooh.
00:17:20.589 --> 00:17:22.509
It wasn't even just a quick little snippy
00:17:22.509 --> 00:17:25.480
snip No, it, it overfloweth.
00:17:25.569 --> 00:17:26.200
Ooh.
00:17:27.279 --> 00:17:36.130
And plus, you have to remember, Kathleen is with child hormones are, I'm, I'm not saying it's an, it's not an excuse,
00:17:36.130 --> 00:17:38.950
but it is certain, a nuanced thing.
00:17:39.880 --> 00:17:46.240
Pregnant woman will tell you all the time, I'm reacting stupidly to so many things, and you have to give a little grace of like,
00:17:46.299 --> 00:17:46.720
give a little
00:17:46.720 --> 00:17:48.910
grace and not continue to escalate.
00:17:48.910 --> 00:17:49.180
Right.
00:17:49.240 --> 00:17:54.309
Which it sounds like there's nothing that factually you said that I can go on.
00:17:54.309 --> 00:18:01.509
But if you, if you're being sweet and like, okay, sweetie, or hey, no big.
00:18:02.259 --> 00:18:03.099
We can talk about it later.
00:18:04.299 --> 00:18:04.420
Huh?
00:18:05.319 --> 00:18:07.299
That, and so she was like, I'm fucking out.
00:18:07.869 --> 00:18:08.529
She left.
00:18:08.799 --> 00:18:10.150
She was in a rage.
00:18:10.269 --> 00:18:21.789
Like you probably that type of, you know, when you feel like, I would imagine where like, this is so frustrating to me when I'm angry, but I start crying and I'm not trying to cry.
00:18:22.029 --> 00:18:22.299
Right?
00:18:22.930 --> 00:18:25.210
Oh, that fucking pisses me off.
00:18:25.210 --> 00:18:29.049
So this is why I could never be pregnant.
00:18:29.440 --> 00:18:31.059
I made that decision myself.
00:18:31.240 --> 00:18:34.615
Well, I would probably be in jail for something
00:18:35.045 --> 00:18:35.454
like that,
00:18:35.460 --> 00:18:37.750
because they still prosecute you even if you're pregnant.
00:18:37.930 --> 00:18:38.680
They, they don't care about the
00:18:38.680 --> 00:18:39.099
hormones.
00:18:39.130 --> 00:18:40.390
They, there's no loophole
00:18:40.569 --> 00:18:40.720
there.
00:18:40.720 --> 00:18:41.980
There's no loophole for that one.
00:18:42.279 --> 00:18:42.339
Yeah.
00:18:42.339 --> 00:18:43.599
But I was pregnant, your Honor.
00:18:43.599 --> 00:18:44.170
You're like, eh.
00:18:44.170 --> 00:18:44.259
They're
00:18:44.259 --> 00:18:44.589
like, oh,
00:18:46.029 --> 00:18:46.750
you gonna pass?
00:18:46.750 --> 00:18:47.259
Bye.
00:18:47.349 --> 00:18:47.589
Yeah.
00:18:47.589 --> 00:18:48.670
That's not a thing.
00:18:48.880 --> 00:18:51.460
So as soon as I heard that, I was like, oof.
00:18:52.440 --> 00:18:52.890
Ciccone.
00:18:52.890 --> 00:18:53.160
Not for me.
00:18:53.380 --> 00:18:58.849
Ciccone remained at the house briefly, where he cleaned the food from his clothes.
00:18:59.359 --> 00:19:00.859
And that takes a lot of.
00:19:01.549 --> 00:19:07.940
Res I will, I will say some restraint to just be like cleaning, you know, when you're like controlled rage.
00:19:08.119 --> 00:19:09.230
That was a definitely
00:19:09.349 --> 00:19:11.630
a con where I'm gonna fix this.
00:19:11.630 --> 00:19:12.619
I'm getting the hell outta here.
00:19:13.039 --> 00:19:14.480
Then he went and jumped into his car.
00:19:17.089 --> 00:19:20.630
He drove down the same direction that Kathleen had gone.
00:19:22.190 --> 00:19:23.480
And this is out in the country?
00:19:23.960 --> 00:19:24.140
Mm-hmm.
00:19:24.380 --> 00:19:26.210
So there's not much traffic out there?
00:19:26.210 --> 00:19:26.269
No.
00:19:26.480 --> 00:19:27.470
So he was
00:19:27.740 --> 00:19:28.940
doing whatever he wanted.
00:19:28.940 --> 00:19:29.390
Yeah.
00:19:30.650 --> 00:19:32.630
Kathleen was walking along the roadway.
00:19:32.660 --> 00:19:41.059
When Cone's vehicle approached, he didn't stop and Ciccone struck her at approximately 50 miles per hour.
00:19:41.839 --> 00:19:43.154
55.
00:19:43.224 --> 00:19:43.515
Zero
00:19:43.865 --> 00:19:44.154
five.
00:19:44.154 --> 00:19:44.394
Zero
00:19:44.599 --> 00:19:44.839
five oh.
00:19:48.440 --> 00:19:50.450
She died instantly from the impact.
00:19:52.670 --> 00:19:59.750
After striking her, his vehicle continued forward and hit a mailbox where it was disabled.
00:20:02.240 --> 00:20:05.535
Jae exited the car but did not approach Kathleen.
00:20:06.224 --> 00:20:08.595
Instead, he used his cell phone to call his mother.
00:20:10.664 --> 00:20:20.865
During the call, he told her that he had been in an accident and that Kathleen was hurt, saying he didn't know where he was and that his head and chest felt like they were going to explode.
00:20:22.815 --> 00:20:29.984
His mother would later say that his voice sounded unrecognizable and that he was screaming during the phone call.
00:20:32.535 --> 00:20:37.095
After the call, he left the roadway and just started walking into the desert.
00:20:38.085 --> 00:20:40.095
And it is desert, ladies and gentlemen.
00:20:40.095 --> 00:20:40.365
Yeah.
00:20:40.605 --> 00:20:41.535
High desert
00:20:41.595 --> 00:20:42.944
sage brush and all of it.
00:20:43.035 --> 00:20:49.484
Not this area is not the pine trees and waterfalls and creeks that you're used to.
00:20:51.884 --> 00:20:52.484
I love that.
00:20:52.785 --> 00:20:53.684
Thank you for that.
00:20:53.805 --> 00:20:59.295
witnesses in the area, saw the collision and went outside of course to, yeah.
00:21:00.464 --> 00:21:03.404
Uh, well, I don't know if they saw him hit her.
00:21:03.434 --> 00:21:03.940
Maybe they slipped
00:21:03.940 --> 00:21:05.384
after, but they saw the collision.
00:21:05.384 --> 00:21:06.494
They knew there was a collision.
00:21:06.494 --> 00:21:07.634
I mean, you're out in the country.
00:21:07.634 --> 00:21:08.654
They might have heard it,
00:21:08.714 --> 00:21:09.974
I'm sure it was quite loud.
00:21:11.595 --> 00:21:12.974
oh no, they did see it.
00:21:13.035 --> 00:21:17.414
Sorry, was some reporting that her body had been thrown from the impact.
00:21:19.289 --> 00:21:25.529
Neighbors attempted to assist while speaking with dispatch, but she was pronounced dead at the scene.
00:21:25.859 --> 00:21:27.180
That took my breath away.
00:21:27.180 --> 00:21:29.579
Just imagining seeing that.
00:21:29.940 --> 00:21:30.210
Yeah.
00:21:30.809 --> 00:21:39.509
It's probably one of those things, and this, a lot of people that have witnessed a trauma like this or something crazy where like your brain doesn't even wanna let you know it's real.
00:21:40.109 --> 00:21:42.660
They're like, surely that did not just happen.
00:21:43.799 --> 00:21:51.269
Well, and also driving 50 miles an hour, I, I don't know what kind of vehicle, I couldn't find the vehicle.
00:21:51.329 --> 00:21:52.500
I was very disappointed.
00:21:52.859 --> 00:21:53.400
Um,
00:21:53.430 --> 00:21:54.900
I don't know that it matters for,
00:21:54.900 --> 00:22:00.599
but you know, it might, it would maybe draw your attention to even have you look at the street depending on
00:22:01.170 --> 00:22:01.470
Yeah.
00:22:01.470 --> 00:22:02.424
Like what, why are they driving
00:22:02.430 --> 00:22:02.440
that?
00:22:02.440 --> 00:22:07.529
Because I can hear, I can hear, I'm like, oh, that, that fucker's driving fast even in my neighborhood.
00:22:07.529 --> 00:22:07.859
Mm-hmm.
00:22:07.865 --> 00:22:08.305
You can hear it.
00:22:09.000 --> 00:22:14.430
And sometimes I'll poke up my head or you'll hear a UPS truck and you're like, what the hell's going The yard guys?
00:22:14.430 --> 00:22:15.869
Not my yard guys,
00:22:15.875 --> 00:22:19.799
motorcycle or diesels where I'm like, there's no way you're going 20.
00:22:20.099 --> 00:22:24.539
I know you're not going, if I can hear your turbo, just absolutely screaming.
00:22:24.539 --> 00:22:24.630
Mm-hmm.
00:22:24.900 --> 00:22:26.519
You're not going 20.
00:22:26.609 --> 00:22:26.849
Right.
00:22:27.210 --> 00:22:30.089
But it can cause some attention.
00:22:30.089 --> 00:22:30.099
Mm-hmm.
00:22:30.180 --> 00:22:30.690
To maybe
00:22:30.750 --> 00:22:31.079
that was
00:22:31.079 --> 00:22:31.140
it.
00:22:31.140 --> 00:22:42.329
When our, the people that come and, do the islands and stuff in the neighborhood, the, the long guys, not my lawn guy, but the long guys, they'll have equipment out there making.
00:22:42.390 --> 00:22:44.789
And so it just picture like, that's unusual.
00:22:44.789 --> 00:22:45.390
What is that?
00:22:45.390 --> 00:22:45.750
Right.
00:22:46.049 --> 00:22:52.799
So they could have heard this vehicle coming that caught their attention to make them even look, you know, they,
00:22:53.910 --> 00:23:02.849
and I've just gotta say, I'm not trying to say this in a derogatory sense because I don't think it's derogatory.
00:23:02.849 --> 00:23:05.220
I feel like maybe some people might think it is.
00:23:05.640 --> 00:23:22.049
But the ability to like quietly and calmly collect yourself and act professionally and like tidy up the house of the food and then like, go and do this.
00:23:23.700 --> 00:23:38.250
I know that for me that feels, it's not like we own it, but like a very, like a lot of women, if they get to the snap point, this is kind of what you see is like the quiet planning.
00:23:38.759 --> 00:23:56.365
The, so this is strange for me because usually in stuff like this, cases of like domestic violence or ma male spouse killing the female spouse, you see a sloppy sometimes heat of the moment, no heat.
00:23:56.369 --> 00:24:01.140
Or even if it's planned, it's planned so poorly and they've been acting like a dip shit in front of everyone.
00:24:01.140 --> 00:24:02.160
But to be able to be like.
00:24:04.049 --> 00:24:04.750
I'm gonna clean it.
00:24:04.750 --> 00:24:04.825
Just
00:24:04.825 --> 00:24:08.940
clean, cleaning this up calmly and then still not be able, like,
00:24:10.109 --> 00:24:16.769
because I, and I will say in my research I did not see anything where, and I don't even know if mom was home.
00:24:17.759 --> 00:24:20.579
I didn't see any like reaction like there.
00:24:20.579 --> 00:24:20.849
Right.
00:24:20.880 --> 00:24:25.799
'cause then you that could add some like shame to it if she was of like embarrassment.
00:24:26.460 --> 00:24:26.549
Mm-hmm.
00:24:26.789 --> 00:24:28.710
And we know that that's not good for anyone.
00:24:29.339 --> 00:24:34.470
The shame and feeling that can drive people, and I'm not excusing it at all.
00:24:34.890 --> 00:24:35.220
No, it's
00:24:35.220 --> 00:24:39.180
just, I'm just trying to get into like it's a different, what's happening in the brain.
00:24:39.180 --> 00:24:39.269
Right.
00:24:41.579 --> 00:24:43.650
Kathleen was 27 years old.
00:24:43.680 --> 00:24:43.950
Oh my goodness.
00:24:44.009 --> 00:24:46.109
And approximately 11 weeks pregnant.
00:24:49.500 --> 00:24:50.130
What a shame.
00:24:51.000 --> 00:24:55.410
When deputies arrived at the scene, Ciccone was no longer there.
00:24:56.190 --> 00:24:58.019
And a search of the surrounding area.
00:24:58.664 --> 00:25:01.065
Was conducted, uh, let's go find this kid.
00:25:01.244 --> 00:25:01.605
Yeah.
00:25:01.605 --> 00:25:03.105
Walking off into the desert,
00:25:03.525 --> 00:25:19.214
approximately an hour later, he was located a mile from the scene standing on a ridge in the desert where he was taken into custody without incident and walked back towards the road different.
00:25:20.565 --> 00:25:22.184
It is not the standard.
00:25:24.855 --> 00:25:31.065
He was transported for medical treatment and later taken to the Elmore County Sheriff's Office where detectives began questioning him.
00:25:32.744 --> 00:25:39.704
During the interview, he was advised of his rights, and at the conclusion of the questioning, he was taken into custody on suspicion of murder.
00:25:42.765 --> 00:25:49.125
Kathleen Terry was born April 23rd, 1981 in Long Island, New York.
00:25:51.105 --> 00:25:51.464
That's a Long
00:25:51.464 --> 00:25:51.914
Island.
00:25:52.799 --> 00:25:54.059
That's a long way from
00:25:54.119 --> 00:25:54.930
the tater land.
00:25:54.930 --> 00:25:55.075
Long way.
00:25:55.079 --> 00:25:57.000
Long way from the tater land for sure.
00:25:57.000 --> 00:26:00.119
It's always interesting to me people from like big cities or
00:26:00.869 --> 00:26:01.890
the end about here.
00:26:02.099 --> 00:26:02.430
Yeah.
00:26:03.190 --> 00:26:04.779
she was the youngest of five children.
00:26:05.380 --> 00:26:06.519
In 1985.
00:26:06.519 --> 00:26:13.630
Her family moved to Eagle, Idaho where she lived until 1989 before relocating to the mountain home area.
00:26:13.660 --> 00:26:15.220
And Eagle was nothing back then?
00:26:15.250 --> 00:26:15.549
No.
00:26:15.640 --> 00:26:18.130
Eagle was Tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny.
00:26:18.130 --> 00:26:18.579
Yeah.
00:26:18.640 --> 00:26:19.750
Nothing there.
00:26:19.779 --> 00:26:20.894
Now it's fancy pants.
00:26:20.914 --> 00:26:21.579
Now it's the ritzy.
00:26:21.579 --> 00:26:22.240
Ritzy.
00:26:22.240 --> 00:26:23.349
One of the ritzy
00:26:23.355 --> 00:26:23.454
Yeah.
00:26:24.025 --> 00:26:24.375
Areas.
00:26:24.444 --> 00:26:26.494
It's fancy in this close proximity.
00:26:26.555 --> 00:26:26.934
But yeah,
00:26:27.515 --> 00:26:32.349
so I mean, basically she was eight years old when they moved to the mountain home area.
00:26:32.900 --> 00:26:39.170
she attended mountain home schools and later worked in the food service industry where she worked alongside friends and family members.
00:26:39.200 --> 00:26:40.309
'cause mountain home was small.
00:26:40.309 --> 00:26:40.369
Yeah.
00:26:40.759 --> 00:26:41.480
You know, everyone,
00:26:41.819 --> 00:26:48.289
she spent much of her time close to home, enjoying life on the ranch, traveling, with her father and siblings.
00:26:49.625 --> 00:26:56.795
Family members described her as outgoing and expressive with a sense of humor and a personality that drew people in.
00:26:57.694 --> 00:26:59.224
And she had a favorite color.
00:26:59.285 --> 00:27:00.694
She was a purple girl.
00:27:00.994 --> 00:27:01.654
Oh, cute.
00:27:01.805 --> 00:27:02.075
Yeah.
00:27:02.585 --> 00:27:11.515
And it also said that, she was a big makeup gal, and that she liked to share her makeup with others and, um, do people and
00:27:11.515 --> 00:27:14.394
doing makeup in this time and place.
00:27:15.474 --> 00:27:20.214
First of all, Idaho was always like five to 10 years behind the trends before cell phones.
00:27:22.015 --> 00:27:25.555
We were living in a, like a bubble.
00:27:26.365 --> 00:27:31.075
You know, you would get the next trend five years after when it was already said and said and done.
00:27:31.434 --> 00:27:34.345
But we did not have YouTube tutorials.
00:27:35.244 --> 00:27:40.309
We barely had a magazine or two to give you some bullshit fucking tip.
00:27:40.329 --> 00:27:40.789
And this is
00:27:40.795 --> 00:27:42.535
fucking nineties gl you remember?
00:27:42.710 --> 00:27:43.269
Nineties glam
00:27:43.410 --> 00:27:43.630
it.
00:27:44.319 --> 00:27:52.089
The underpainting, the, it was hard techniques to do it right for what was cool in that era.
00:27:52.089 --> 00:27:54.400
I say late nineties'cause this was 2003.
00:27:54.400 --> 00:27:55.750
But growing up, just
00:27:55.750 --> 00:27:56.980
learning that, no, it was all that.
00:27:56.980 --> 00:27:57.430
Yeah.
00:27:58.089 --> 00:28:07.869
And so to be into, or even good at makeup at that time was a lot harder and required just for real natural skill or tons of practice.
00:28:08.319 --> 00:28:16.150
There was no free courses on YouTube of learning how to apply makeup and people had the worst advice.
00:28:16.210 --> 00:28:25.000
I have pictures where I'm like, we spent an hour and a half on our makeup that day just'cause we were having a girl's day and I look like a fucking psychopath.
00:28:25.660 --> 00:28:26.769
It was not good.
00:28:27.369 --> 00:28:31.869
Look, I'm a victim of the nineties with the, with the tweezing of the brows.
00:28:31.930 --> 00:28:32.680
Oh, the brows.
00:28:32.740 --> 00:28:36.190
Remind me to show you a recent picture I just got from like one of my besties.
00:28:36.250 --> 00:28:38.200
Uh, and, and there's no recouping.
00:28:39.160 --> 00:28:40.960
I have recouped a bit, thank God.
00:28:40.960 --> 00:28:47.140
'cause I'm like, oh my God, if mine were still like that, I've got the McDonald's arches separated by a three mile barrier on my forehead.
00:28:47.980 --> 00:28:47.990
What?
00:28:47.990 --> 00:28:49.059
What am I doing?
00:28:49.240 --> 00:28:53.170
I have like, so mine have recouped a smidge.
00:28:54.460 --> 00:28:56.319
They'll never be regular.
00:28:56.380 --> 00:29:02.349
But thank goodness a few, a few of them have had the heart to grow back.
00:29:02.349 --> 00:29:03.670
And I thank you so much.
00:29:03.670 --> 00:29:05.140
Eyebrow hairs that after I
00:29:05.140 --> 00:29:10.539
do think about the ladies that get their eyebrows tattooed and I'm like, oh, I,
00:29:10.539 --> 00:29:11.890
you never know where the trend is
00:29:11.890 --> 00:29:12.130
gonna go.
00:29:12.130 --> 00:29:19.299
You don't know because look, and the nineties pencil thin was in pencil thin, high ass arches.
00:29:19.539 --> 00:29:20.589
Exactly.
00:29:20.619 --> 00:29:24.880
And if I would've got those tattooed, I mean, I've barely recovered.
00:29:24.970 --> 00:29:27.250
I have a little bit, but it's not good.
00:29:27.940 --> 00:29:30.339
Anyways, I was the master of the tweezers.
00:29:30.339 --> 00:29:30.670
Okay.
00:29:30.730 --> 00:29:31.660
That's all I gotta say.
00:29:32.200 --> 00:29:33.250
And too much.
00:29:33.279 --> 00:29:34.244
Yeah, I was the same.
00:29:34.244 --> 00:29:36.339
I was tweezer happy.
00:29:37.059 --> 00:29:39.490
And it was not good for me or anyone else around me.
00:29:51.741 --> 00:30:06.801
On October 17th, 2003, Ciccone was charged with two counts of first degree murder, one count for Kathleen, and one count for the unborn fetus under an Idaho law that had just went into effect.
00:30:06.832 --> 00:30:14.902
The year before in 2002, prosecutors were allowed to charge for the death of the fetus on a separate offense.
00:30:15.412 --> 00:30:15.801
Damn.
00:30:16.011 --> 00:30:18.442
And that didn't happen until 2002.
00:30:21.156 --> 00:30:28.116
Investigators said there was evidence supporting premeditation and that Ciccone was held without bond.
00:30:28.116 --> 00:30:33.156
In Elmore County jail, prosecutor said he confessed to killing his wife.
00:30:35.106 --> 00:30:55.136
A preliminary hearing began on October 30th, 2003 and extended over multiple dates cross, across the following weeks at the conclusions of the hearing on January 12th, 2004, Toni was bound over on both counts of first degree murder at his arraignment.
00:30:55.136 --> 00:31:02.906
On February 2nd, 2004, Ciccone entered a plea of not guilty and requested a jury trial'cause this is what they do
00:31:03.297 --> 00:31:05.037
and this is your best chances.
00:31:05.561 --> 00:31:06.612
For the most part
00:31:06.701 --> 00:31:08.112
to negotiate.
00:31:08.231 --> 00:31:08.622
Yeah.
00:31:08.741 --> 00:31:22.392
There's a few instances where just a judge where you just request the judge do it where it could be in your favor, but those are things of where there's like not legal precedent for the crime.
00:31:22.932 --> 00:31:25.656
Well, and you have to remember this new law.
00:31:25.916 --> 00:31:26.336
Mm-hmm.
00:31:26.876 --> 00:31:29.021
So it could, they're gonna try to challenge that.
00:31:29.021 --> 00:31:31.122
Like I, I do think, um,
00:31:31.122 --> 00:31:34.481
and I have opinions on that as well, so we'll get into it.
00:31:34.481 --> 00:31:34.902
Maybe
00:31:35.892 --> 00:32:03.491
The court case was set for trial, in July, 2004 with jury selection to begin on July 20th, four days before jury selection was set to begin on July 16th, the state filed a motion to continue the trial stating that several material witnesses assigned to Mountain Home Air Force Base were deployed overseas.
00:32:04.317 --> 00:32:05.967
And unavailable to testify.
00:32:06.446 --> 00:32:07.467
Makes sense.
00:32:07.946 --> 00:32:12.957
So a hearing on that motion was set for July 19th, literally the day before, jury selection.
00:32:13.856 --> 00:32:18.926
During that hearing, Ciccone opposed a delay and asserted his right to a speedy trial.
00:32:19.166 --> 00:32:19.196
Oh,
00:32:19.557 --> 00:32:20.217
stating
00:32:22.166 --> 00:32:25.872
again, this podcast brought to you by Garage Door.
00:32:25.872 --> 00:32:26.457
Garage door.
00:32:26.846 --> 00:32:27.237
Don't
00:32:27.237 --> 00:32:27.596
we all
00:32:27.596 --> 00:32:29.277
love garage door?
00:32:29.487 --> 00:32:32.636
It's my absolute favorite garage door.
00:32:34.076 --> 00:32:36.237
Set it off three times when you want.
00:32:37.436 --> 00:32:38.547
Let's do it again.
00:32:39.537 --> 00:32:41.186
Now you've set off the dog.
00:32:41.457 --> 00:32:46.977
This podcast also brought to you by little white dog who was behaving.
00:32:47.412 --> 00:32:49.376
Amazingly until garage door.
00:32:49.376 --> 00:32:50.616
He thought his, his dad was garage door.
00:32:51.156 --> 00:32:52.872
He thought his dad was leaving.
00:32:52.932 --> 00:32:54.821
He's like, get me out of this prison.
00:32:54.852 --> 00:32:55.392
Oh my God.
00:32:55.392 --> 00:32:56.261
This is an important
00:32:56.261 --> 00:32:56.832
part.
00:32:58.842 --> 00:32:59.142
Okay.
00:32:59.172 --> 00:33:00.011
Oh, where was I
00:33:00.011 --> 00:33:00.491
at?
00:33:00.612 --> 00:33:01.122
Lori
00:33:01.122 --> 00:33:01.751
deployed.
00:33:01.751 --> 00:33:02.382
They were deployed.
00:33:02.382 --> 00:33:03.852
He wanted a speedy trial.
00:33:03.882 --> 00:33:04.241
Okay.
00:33:04.241 --> 00:33:05.291
Loop loophole.
00:33:05.352 --> 00:33:06.551
Not really a loophole, but a Gotcha.
00:33:07.241 --> 00:33:08.291
No, it's absolute.
00:33:08.291 --> 00:33:09.041
It's a gotcha.
00:33:09.461 --> 00:33:10.842
It's an absolute right.
00:33:10.872 --> 00:33:11.051
Yeah.
00:33:11.082 --> 00:33:16.241
That you get a speedy trial, otherwise they can let you sit there in prison for four or five years.
00:33:16.602 --> 00:33:16.692
Mm-hmm.
00:33:16.932 --> 00:33:17.576
And I lose everything.
00:33:17.771 --> 00:33:22.842
And I'm not saying for this particular thing, but you could literally lose your whole life.
00:33:22.842 --> 00:33:22.852
Life.
00:33:22.852 --> 00:33:23.682
It's an important, right.
00:33:23.682 --> 00:33:25.721
Especially with the cash bail system.
00:33:25.781 --> 00:33:27.672
It, you need to have a speedy trial.
00:33:27.676 --> 00:33:27.936
Mm-hmm.
00:33:28.241 --> 00:33:29.741
And so he was like, no way.
00:33:29.832 --> 00:33:31.781
I want my trial and I want it
00:33:31.872 --> 00:33:32.501
now.
00:33:32.501 --> 00:33:32.511
Now,
00:33:32.682 --> 00:33:33.132
yeah.
00:33:33.432 --> 00:33:35.352
What, who, what is that jingle?
00:33:35.981 --> 00:33:38.801
I want my, and I want it now.
00:33:39.457 --> 00:33:39.866
I want my money.
00:33:39.866 --> 00:33:40.267
Oh, it's the money.
00:33:40.267 --> 00:33:40.467
Money.
00:33:40.467 --> 00:33:41.172
And I want it now.
00:33:41.231 --> 00:33:42.011
It's j.
00:33:42.656 --> 00:33:44.906
Called JG Wentworth.
00:33:44.912 --> 00:33:45.727
Wentworth 8
00:33:45.727 --> 00:33:46.067
7
00:33:46.067 --> 00:33:46.406
7
00:33:46.406 --> 00:33:47.366
cash now.
00:33:47.396 --> 00:33:47.517
Yeah.
00:33:47.576 --> 00:33:49.166
That's, oh my gosh.
00:33:49.616 --> 00:33:52.436
It's my money and I want it now.
00:33:52.946 --> 00:33:54.866
He is like eating pizza at his mom's house.
00:33:55.856 --> 00:33:56.487
Jesus.
00:33:56.817 --> 00:33:57.057
Um, if,
00:33:57.057 --> 00:33:57.957
you know, you know,
00:33:59.186 --> 00:34:08.847
Sooni had a pose, a delay, was ready to go to trial, and the court granted the state's motion to continue the trial
00:34:10.347 --> 00:34:11.697
scandalous.
00:34:11.967 --> 00:34:12.956
This really,
00:34:13.047 --> 00:34:16.947
this is not giving me good vibes'cause I, we know where this type of shit goes.
00:34:17.436 --> 00:34:22.987
the court granted the state's motion and the case is reset for January, 2005.
00:34:23.376 --> 00:34:27.277
So we are literally, this happened in October
00:34:27.336 --> 00:34:27.856
oh 3,
00:34:27.856 --> 00:34:28.597
0 3,
00:34:29.976 --> 00:34:30.277
he,
00:34:30.697 --> 00:34:32.166
mm-hmm.
00:34:32.168 --> 00:34:37.666
And I feel like there should, this is one that's weird to me because this is.
00:34:38.407 --> 00:34:41.677
The, so the government's required to provide you a speedy trial.
00:34:41.677 --> 00:34:45.277
However, the government has also required people to be overseas and deployed.
00:34:45.847 --> 00:34:50.827
So it's like, I can see them being like, well, yeah, but this is our stuff.
00:34:50.907 --> 00:34:53.666
we're gonna do our thing and people are gonna be deployed.
00:34:54.027 --> 00:34:56.996
And so we'll, we'll speedy it up as much as we can.
00:34:57.356 --> 00:34:58.467
Isn't it a weird thing?
00:34:58.496 --> 00:35:04.496
It's, uh, I, I'm not a legal expert, so maybe it's, maybe it's a weird thing to me and it's not to other people.
00:35:04.496 --> 00:35:11.157
Feel free to, we, we love hearing guys, if you are in the field, let us know.
00:35:11.217 --> 00:35:11.907
Give us the deep,
00:35:11.907 --> 00:35:13.317
because I
00:35:13.317 --> 00:35:14.592
just, you can't trust ai.
00:35:14.972 --> 00:35:17.067
How can they not give?
00:35:17.367 --> 00:35:19.797
Like, that is the cornerstone.
00:35:19.797 --> 00:35:19.887
It's
00:35:20.067 --> 00:35:20.786
basic.
00:35:21.177 --> 00:35:23.876
It is the most basic, right?
00:35:23.996 --> 00:35:24.086
Mm-hmm.
00:35:25.286 --> 00:35:27.327
When you are charged at the time, and it's a risk
00:35:27.327 --> 00:35:31.137
you take when that's why some people wait forever to charge someone.
00:35:31.137 --> 00:35:31.586
'cause they're like.
00:35:32.036 --> 00:35:34.947
If we charge, they could flip that timer immediately.
00:35:34.947 --> 00:35:35.967
And we're not ready.
00:35:35.972 --> 00:35:36.101
It's done.
00:35:36.106 --> 00:35:36.777
And we're not ready.
00:35:37.077 --> 00:35:38.336
And we can't get ready
00:35:38.456 --> 00:35:38.942
in that time.
00:35:38.942 --> 00:35:42.356
And you know, a famous case for this is the OJ Simpson trial.
00:35:42.717 --> 00:35:43.467
Guess what?
00:35:44.067 --> 00:35:47.876
The prosecution wasn't ready and they wanted to fucking delay.
00:35:47.876 --> 00:35:51.476
And you know what Johnny Cochrane said, go fuck yourself.
00:35:51.476 --> 00:35:53.847
Why is no one ready,
00:35:53.992 --> 00:35:54.342
Uhhuh?
00:35:55.317 --> 00:35:56.547
Exactly.
00:35:56.606 --> 00:35:56.847
No.
00:35:56.847 --> 00:35:57.387
And guess what?
00:35:57.387 --> 00:35:57.536
You can
00:35:57.536 --> 00:35:57.956
get fucked.
00:35:57.956 --> 00:36:02.907
That was in OJ Simpson's trial.
00:36:03.177 --> 00:36:11.786
That was a benefit to the defense because they got caught literally with their pants down like they did.
00:36:11.786 --> 00:36:12.836
There was so much shit.
00:36:12.836 --> 00:36:12.902
It's it
00:36:12.902 --> 00:36:14.427
sometimes it's a bluffing game too.
00:36:14.456 --> 00:36:14.847
Yeah.
00:36:14.936 --> 00:36:25.106
But there was so much shit that they didn't have because there that case was epically fucking so much evidence.
00:36:25.496 --> 00:36:27.416
They did not have it.
00:36:27.626 --> 00:36:28.257
They couldn't.
00:36:28.257 --> 00:36:28.947
I just put
00:36:28.947 --> 00:36:29.516
it together.
00:36:29.577 --> 00:36:32.811
I will rewatch that on Netflix, the trial part.
00:36:32.811 --> 00:36:33.132
Mm-hmm.
00:36:33.211 --> 00:36:38.666
And they're like, did you touch the evidence without wearing a glove?
00:36:38.817 --> 00:36:40.797
And oh, what was his name?
00:36:41.666 --> 00:36:41.996
Fun.
00:36:42.027 --> 00:36:42.206
There
00:36:42.206 --> 00:36:42.836
was some fun.
00:36:43.347 --> 00:36:44.996
What about this Mr.
00:36:44.996 --> 00:36:45.657
Fung?
00:36:46.152 --> 00:36:53.067
And it showed him because oh, they had all those cameras out there and he is literally handling evidence with no gloves,
00:36:53.067 --> 00:36:53.757
Hiller.
00:36:55.137 --> 00:36:55.166
Oh.
00:36:55.226 --> 00:36:55.887
So yeah.
00:36:55.887 --> 00:36:59.666
So there it's a basic, oh, Shay dars, I suppose idea.
00:36:59.996 --> 00:37:00.297
Yeah.
00:37:00.416 --> 00:37:03.717
So, um, cluster fuck of the century.
00:37:04.226 --> 00:37:10.077
It really, yes, but, and so he does have, should have the right to a speedy trial.
00:37:10.137 --> 00:37:10.376
Yes.
00:37:10.436 --> 00:37:11.487
It's the most fundamental.
00:37:11.487 --> 00:37:12.777
There's many reasons for it.
00:37:12.777 --> 00:37:12.811
And it's.
00:37:13.722 --> 00:37:13.961
Even.
00:37:13.961 --> 00:37:16.961
And so the government can't hold you for fucking 20 years before they try you.
00:37:17.322 --> 00:37:18.521
It is a, yeah.
00:37:18.521 --> 00:37:19.211
I mean, and that's,
00:37:19.211 --> 00:37:21.731
and so that's how it works some places.
00:37:21.731 --> 00:37:22.121
And so it
00:37:22.121 --> 00:37:22.871
really is,
00:37:22.922 --> 00:37:40.382
even if you know that someone is for sure guilty and you don't agree with them getting this benefit, this is, it sucks when, you know, but it could affect all of our society so terribly if this wasn't a thing.
00:37:40.442 --> 00:37:40.836
So is it
00:37:41.041 --> 00:37:44.911
wasn't in Italy, Amanda Knox, like health forever.
00:37:45.001 --> 00:37:45.601
Yes.
00:37:45.661 --> 00:37:51.362
And then retried after she was like, there is, we have some good things in the court system.
00:37:52.052 --> 00:37:52.112
Yeah.
00:37:52.112 --> 00:37:52.172
To
00:37:52.172 --> 00:37:52.472
protect
00:37:52.472 --> 00:37:52.681
innocent.
00:37:52.681 --> 00:38:00.211
It's certainly not perfect and we talk about it every time of the failures and the loopholes that are are bad.
00:38:00.646 --> 00:38:02.266
This is a loophole.
00:38:02.387 --> 00:38:03.496
I wouldn't even call it a loophole.
00:38:03.496 --> 00:38:04.876
This is a right, that is,
00:38:04.876 --> 00:38:05.237
this is right.
00:38:05.536 --> 00:38:05.956
Overall.
00:38:05.956 --> 00:38:06.016
You
00:38:06.016 --> 00:38:07.246
can't hold me forever.
00:38:07.606 --> 00:38:08.567
You can't charge me.
00:38:08.567 --> 00:38:08.806
And then
00:38:08.806 --> 00:38:11.987
just because then you would never even have to have a good prosecution.
00:38:11.987 --> 00:38:13.606
You can let someone rot for 20 years.
00:38:13.606 --> 00:38:14.146
Exactly.
00:38:14.266 --> 00:38:15.137
And you could, so
00:38:15.137 --> 00:38:15.766
I agree.
00:38:15.766 --> 00:38:15.976
Like
00:38:15.976 --> 00:38:16.996
accused of anything.
00:38:16.996 --> 00:38:18.737
He, he should be pushing for this.
00:38:18.737 --> 00:38:19.126
Like
00:38:19.396 --> 00:38:19.936
it's a great
00:38:19.936 --> 00:38:20.206
strategy
00:38:20.206 --> 00:38:26.447
and I was, I was surprised that they granted that motion.
00:38:26.867 --> 00:38:27.407
Yeah.
00:38:27.407 --> 00:38:29.657
Risky business, risky bus.
00:38:29.657 --> 00:38:34.097
You know that you're going to, at that point I feel like you know that it's gonna come to appeal
00:38:34.606 --> 00:38:35.356
and it does.
00:38:36.536 --> 00:38:45.632
on December 20th, 2004, Ciccone filed the motion to dismiss the charges, arguing the delay violated his right to the speedy trial
00:38:45.961 --> 00:38:46.681
as he should.
00:38:46.681 --> 00:38:48.961
This is A plus B equals C.
00:38:49.411 --> 00:38:53.117
On January 3rd, uh oh five, the court denied the motion and found.
00:38:53.911 --> 00:38:57.181
That good cause existed for the continuance.
00:38:57.181 --> 00:38:58.862
I didn't even know this existed.
00:38:58.891 --> 00:38:59.311
Right.
00:38:59.311 --> 00:39:01.081
And that's why I was like, well, maybe
00:39:01.081 --> 00:39:02.382
they can, didn't say I didn't even know this existed.
00:39:02.507 --> 00:39:02.797
Yeah.
00:39:02.817 --> 00:39:04.081
But we're the government.
00:39:04.081 --> 00:39:05.402
And they're the government.
00:39:05.402 --> 00:39:05.641
So I
00:39:05.972 --> 00:39:06.961
thought there was a hard,
00:39:07.831 --> 00:39:08.731
I thought there was too
00:39:08.762 --> 00:39:09.422
hard line.
00:39:10.501 --> 00:39:10.952
The more you
00:39:10.952 --> 00:39:11.342
know,
00:39:12.032 --> 00:39:17.041
and usually it's the defense that needs more time.
00:39:17.431 --> 00:39:24.001
I, I'm gonna an uneducated guess I'm gonna say it's 90% the defense that asks for continuances.
00:39:24.811 --> 00:39:27.811
Well, and because you're waiting to see what they have.
00:39:27.811 --> 00:39:27.822
Mm-hmm.
00:39:27.822 --> 00:39:30.061
Because you have to see what they have to build your case.
00:39:30.271 --> 00:39:36.931
So if they're waiting for DNA, you're like, well, what the DNA says that's gonna choose which A, B, or C option.
00:39:36.931 --> 00:39:37.351
Exactly.
00:39:37.532 --> 00:39:38.402
I'm for my defense.
00:39:38.431 --> 00:39:38.672
Right.
00:39:38.731 --> 00:39:47.371
And I need time to, after that's received and they're ready to go, I still need some time to choose where I'm gonna go after I receive the evidence.
00:39:47.641 --> 00:39:47.731
Mm-hmm.
00:39:47.972 --> 00:39:48.032
Yeah.
00:39:48.181 --> 00:39:49.677
So this is kind of a little twist.
00:39:50.806 --> 00:39:52.847
I, this is a very interesting one.
00:39:52.847 --> 00:39:53.027
Legally.
00:39:53.027 --> 00:39:53.686
This is why.
00:39:53.867 --> 00:39:55.606
Oh, I love the legal stuff.
00:39:55.606 --> 00:39:56.356
You know, Denny's, that
00:39:56.356 --> 00:39:56.836
girl
00:39:58.007 --> 00:40:03.916
jury selection began on January 4th in 2005 in Elmore County.
00:40:04.456 --> 00:40:07.007
The trial proceeded over 11 days.
00:40:08.867 --> 00:40:15.077
testimony during the trial included accounts from individuals who responded to the scene shortly after the collision.
00:40:15.766 --> 00:40:23.416
Darlene Shaw, one of the first people to arrive, describe Ciccone standing near the vehicle and speaking on his phone.
00:40:24.137 --> 00:40:34.217
She said, he stated, quote, I got the job done, but in an earlier hearing, held closer to the time of the incident.
00:40:34.876 --> 00:40:38.896
Shaw had said she could not hear what he was saying during the call.
00:40:39.527 --> 00:40:52.456
And this is no matter what anyone wants to think, it has been proven so many times that memory, first person witness accounts are one of the most we've, we've fallible.
00:40:52.621 --> 00:40:53.041
Mm-hmm.
00:40:53.567 --> 00:41:01.601
And the, the more you access a memory, the more it changes because you're accessing it then, and
00:41:01.601 --> 00:41:01.882
you, you're
00:41:01.922 --> 00:41:05.657
bringing, then you're, then you're bringing in all of the things you've learned since then.
00:41:06.106 --> 00:41:07.547
She could have talked to a neighbor.
00:41:07.547 --> 00:41:23.461
I, and I, and I've mentioned this before, on, on a previous case that we've done, that there was, there's some Netflix series, but where like this lady could have literally talked to her neighbor and like, you didn't hear him say that, and then all of a sudden, that's her memory.
00:41:24.242 --> 00:41:25.442
It's a, it's a fucking
00:41:25.442 --> 00:41:25.592
thing.
00:41:25.592 --> 00:41:27.181
It can happen and it sucks.
00:41:27.181 --> 00:41:27.467
And I, I.
00:41:28.217 --> 00:41:34.847
Our brains want to think that our brains are the end all be all, and that we could never do that.
00:41:35.146 --> 00:41:38.806
That's another way of protecting from who wants to say they're wrong.
00:41:39.347 --> 00:41:47.146
Y your brain wants to avoid being incorrect, being rejected, being shamed, being the problem.
00:41:47.327 --> 00:41:53.056
And so your brain will do things to make you avoid all that
00:41:53.266 --> 00:41:54.077
and justify
00:41:54.887 --> 00:41:56.262
and make sense of something.
00:41:56.262 --> 00:41:56.541
Mm-hmm.
00:41:56.621 --> 00:41:57.856
Sometimes of,
00:41:58.217 --> 00:41:58.396
yeah.
00:41:58.456 --> 00:42:00.226
What, why could this have happened?
00:42:00.286 --> 00:42:10.757
Well, my brain thinks this, and it, I'm not saying that people are a hundred percent weak minded, but it there is literal science showing this, that this is a thing.
00:42:10.817 --> 00:42:11.327
It is.
00:42:11.327 --> 00:42:13.516
In general, it, it happens.
00:42:13.577 --> 00:42:14.507
Absolutely.
00:42:15.766 --> 00:42:24.347
Evidence presented at the trial, focused on the moments leading up to the collision and whether the vehicle had been driven intentionally towards c.
00:42:25.367 --> 00:42:29.086
The prosecution argued that the act was deliberate and premeditated.
00:42:29.536 --> 00:42:42.646
The defense argued that the collision was accidental during closing arguments, the prosecution addressed the lack of direct witnesses to the final moments before the impact stating.
00:42:43.427 --> 00:42:50.536
There's only two people that know, and Kathleen Ciccone isn't here to tell us.
00:42:51.527 --> 00:42:59.896
The prosecution also argued that there was no testimony indicating that Ciccone had been distracted or unaware of Kathleen's presence before the collision.
00:43:00.047 --> 00:43:00.197
Yeah.
00:43:00.197 --> 00:43:02.777
Cell phones were not very prevalent back then.
00:43:03.347 --> 00:43:06.976
They existed, but people were not texting and scrolling.
00:43:07.367 --> 00:43:09.077
Facebook, Instagram, TikTok.
00:43:09.436 --> 00:43:10.967
That was not happening.
00:43:10.996 --> 00:43:11.177
No.
00:43:11.177 --> 00:43:11.447
You were
00:43:11.447 --> 00:43:11.927
literally
00:43:11.927 --> 00:43:12.317
paying.
00:43:12.317 --> 00:43:13.336
It was safer.
00:43:13.396 --> 00:43:14.507
You were doing T nine.
00:43:14.597 --> 00:43:17.657
The little like doing the two for A, B, C.
00:43:17.836 --> 00:43:19.936
You can do that and look at the road.
00:43:20.327 --> 00:43:21.586
I was such a pro.
00:43:21.586 --> 00:43:22.876
T nine texter.
00:43:23.672 --> 00:43:25.711
I will not text now.
00:43:25.742 --> 00:43:27.541
'cause I know myself and I know how easy it is.
00:43:27.632 --> 00:43:27.902
Don't even
00:43:28.262 --> 00:43:29.686
in oh three, were we texting
00:43:30.567 --> 00:43:30.766
a little?
00:43:30.836 --> 00:43:39.331
Sometimes they even had those, like, this might've even been the time where Nokia had like the walkie talkie feature, which was so cool.
00:43:39.992 --> 00:43:41.731
Uh, that's was my son's first phone.
00:43:41.942 --> 00:43:50.612
My sister had that and I thought, I still think my sister is pretty cool, but I thought that she was like walking her friends all the time.
00:43:51.001 --> 00:43:55.561
Um, and you didn't have to, it was like cell phone coverage walkie.
00:43:55.561 --> 00:43:58.532
So you didn't have to be, you know how shitty walkies are, right?
00:43:58.532 --> 00:44:00.811
Unless you get the expensive, expensive ones.
00:44:01.862 --> 00:44:05.911
And it was, it was like voice to text and it would, but it would come right through.
00:44:05.911 --> 00:44:10.862
So if you're in questionable company and they're like, did you hear them?
00:44:11.012 --> 00:44:11.672
You know?
00:44:12.407 --> 00:44:14.717
Allison's a fucking batch,
00:44:15.677 --> 00:44:16.666
like or something.
00:44:16.907 --> 00:44:18.496
You know, it's gonna come right through.
00:44:18.947 --> 00:44:21.436
And you're also, we're paying a dollar a minute.
00:44:21.527 --> 00:44:21.706
Yeah.
00:44:22.786 --> 00:44:24.737
This is fucking for real.
00:44:25.067 --> 00:44:25.277
Yeah.
00:44:25.277 --> 00:44:30.317
You're not scrolling or calling or texting unnecessarily on a cell phone at this time.
00:44:30.317 --> 00:44:30.496
No, you
00:44:30.496 --> 00:44:32.567
are not making, it was quick.
00:44:32.567 --> 00:44:36.527
A little like, I remember it was, I don't know.
00:44:37.157 --> 00:44:38.686
You were like, yeah, I can wait till I get there.
00:44:38.726 --> 00:44:41.246
you might've got, and you had minutes.
00:44:41.847 --> 00:44:41.996
Yeah.
00:44:41.996 --> 00:44:44.876
You had a certain amount of minutes that you could use.
00:44:44.876 --> 00:44:46.527
And then after that it was a dollar a minute.
00:44:47.077 --> 00:44:50.976
but it was seriously super expensive to have a cell phone.
00:44:51.036 --> 00:44:51.396
Yeah.
00:44:51.456 --> 00:44:58.206
So this, I doubt it was a dis if it was a distraction, it certainly was not a cell phone is the moral of the story here.
00:44:58.206 --> 00:44:58.387
Yeah.
00:44:58.567 --> 00:45:04.327
No, the jury began deliberations on January 5th, 2005.
00:45:04.536 --> 00:45:09.277
During deliberations, an issue arose involving juror conduct.
00:45:10.746 --> 00:45:13.447
Jurors maintain your conduct.
00:45:13.447 --> 00:45:22.987
Gosh, this has been the kryptonite to so many cases that I've heard recently where I'm like the one juror doing their experiment
00:45:22.987 --> 00:45:23.137
at home.
00:45:23.137 --> 00:45:30.286
Even the fucker murder might get a fucking new trial because a jury, it wasn't jury misconduct, but it was the, court.
00:45:34.817 --> 00:45:36.077
Not the recorder.
00:45:37.007 --> 00:45:39.496
Oh, like sharing information or something?
00:45:39.617 --> 00:45:40.007
Yeah.
00:45:40.007 --> 00:45:45.166
She was just like, uh, basically like, oh, watch his testimony.
00:45:45.317 --> 00:45:46.876
She was like in charge of the jurors.
00:45:47.056 --> 00:45:47.777
It's a clerk.
00:45:48.077 --> 00:45:49.007
I think it was a clerk.
00:45:49.126 --> 00:45:49.336
Yes.
00:45:49.336 --> 00:45:51.916
We cannot be doing that guys.
00:45:52.007 --> 00:45:53.387
Today's a big day.
00:45:54.797 --> 00:45:57.407
Mm, wink, wink, uh, keep an eye on his, on his
00:45:57.407 --> 00:45:58.577
reactions.
00:45:58.606 --> 00:45:58.876
Yeah.
00:45:59.027 --> 00:46:02.416
Watch his body language, I think is what she said.
00:46:02.567 --> 00:46:03.137
Anyways,
00:46:03.257 --> 00:46:11.027
you cannot be like, these are the things that I understand the urge because listen, I love some tea.
00:46:11.027 --> 00:46:11.327
Then the
00:46:11.327 --> 00:46:12.496
bitch wrote a book
00:46:13.847 --> 00:46:17.836
and she was like, well, and I told them, take a look.
00:46:17.896 --> 00:46:20.896
Make sure you focus on this, and I don't know.
00:46:20.896 --> 00:46:21.286
That's how about
00:46:21.286 --> 00:46:24.827
you fucking take your job seriously, including jurors like,
00:46:24.827 --> 00:46:25.277
yeah,
00:46:25.516 --> 00:46:30.947
this is a right that is not afforded to many, many people in the world.
00:46:31.697 --> 00:46:33.257
Take your fucking job seriously.
00:46:33.286 --> 00:46:37.547
And the the expectations are laid out clearly.
00:46:37.547 --> 00:46:38.177
And so
00:46:38.237 --> 00:46:39.197
there's no guesswork here.
00:46:39.197 --> 00:46:40.996
You're not, you don't have the benefit.
00:46:41.056 --> 00:46:50.657
Like I, I sometimes understand when jurors misunderstand instructions because sometimes those instructions are not clear and there's 60 pages long Casey Anthony trial, they're like,
00:46:50.686 --> 00:46:51.047
if you
00:46:51.047 --> 00:46:54.077
don't know how someone died, you can't have a murder.
00:46:54.856 --> 00:46:58.427
That was not explicit in the instructions.
00:46:58.427 --> 00:46:59.507
but hello.
00:47:00.166 --> 00:47:04.186
They're like, if you don't know how someone died, the murder did not happen.
00:47:04.666 --> 00:47:07.487
Wasn't their exact words, but they're like, well, how can you?
00:47:07.817 --> 00:47:08.117
Yeah,
00:47:08.266 --> 00:47:10.606
if you don't know, then that's the doubt.
00:47:11.507 --> 00:47:17.987
And then juries can walk away and then get a, get a different perspective and they're like, oh my God, we've done the wrong thing.
00:47:18.467 --> 00:47:19.157
That's happened.
00:47:19.217 --> 00:47:19.666
Mm-hmm.
00:47:20.056 --> 00:47:22.246
But let me tell you about this juror misconduct.
00:47:22.456 --> 00:47:23.416
Tell me about it.
00:47:24.797 --> 00:47:28.936
One juror obtained outside information related to the case,
00:47:29.117 --> 00:47:29.871
big L and,
00:47:29.956 --> 00:47:31.487
and shared it with other jurors.
00:47:31.666 --> 00:47:36.976
And this is relatable to, like people doing self experiments, they do their own experiments.
00:47:36.976 --> 00:47:37.876
Like, can
00:47:37.876 --> 00:47:40.737
I fit a gun in my, if I had a gun this long?
00:47:40.737 --> 00:47:50.036
There was one that I just listened to recently that was like, they did their own thing of, well, I did it and that there's no way that I could have shot it myself if the gun was this long.
00:47:50.036 --> 00:47:51.536
And that wasn't part of evidence.
00:47:51.597 --> 00:48:00.217
One that comes to mind for me was, a woman had been drowned in a bathtub and then she was outside of the bathtub, so they got wet.
00:48:01.237 --> 00:48:07.956
And then got outta the bathtub and laid on the floor to see how long it took them to be like drier or how wet.
00:48:08.197 --> 00:48:09.186
Oh, the wetness.
00:48:09.186 --> 00:48:09.936
Yes.
00:48:09.936 --> 00:48:09.947
Yes.
00:48:10.626 --> 00:48:12.817
No, you cannot be conducting experiments.
00:48:12.817 --> 00:48:15.577
You have to go off what the experts say.
00:48:16.387 --> 00:48:16.447
Yeah.
00:48:16.447 --> 00:48:23.257
And if they don't have the, and listen son, you especially cannot share it.
00:48:24.097 --> 00:48:24.246
That
00:48:24.246 --> 00:48:36.007
was'cause I can, I can, if I was in a jury and it wasn't answered for me, would I have tried it being in the bathtub and out or checking the, a gun length, trying to see what did that look like.
00:48:36.967 --> 00:48:38.856
I would've absolutely done it.
00:48:39.277 --> 00:48:43.896
And this is why this, this is why they won't choose me for jury duty and they shouldn't.
00:48:43.896 --> 00:48:46.237
'cause I don't wanna be doing jury duty.
00:48:46.387 --> 00:48:47.407
I used to think I wanted it.
00:48:47.407 --> 00:48:48.306
I do not want it.
00:48:48.786 --> 00:48:50.137
I would never get selected.
00:48:50.916 --> 00:48:51.336
No.
00:48:51.436 --> 00:48:55.706
So they won't choose me for a jury selection as they should.
00:48:55.706 --> 00:48:56.117
As they shouldn't.
00:48:56.266 --> 00:48:59.237
We will not be, uh, so yeah.
00:48:59.757 --> 00:49:05.516
the, and being a small town, I think that this juror probably obtained that information from everyone's
00:49:05.516 --> 00:49:05.996
talking.
00:49:06.027 --> 00:49:06.507
Yeah.
00:49:07.467 --> 00:49:09.177
But there was another juror.
00:49:09.806 --> 00:49:12.027
Oh, we have multiple issues here.
00:49:12.056 --> 00:49:16.646
Another juror reported overhearing the lead investigator discussing the case in public.
00:49:19.077 --> 00:49:25.376
And in that point, jurors I can, juror, were all just regular people, were not law degrees.
00:49:26.367 --> 00:49:31.166
The lead investigator, shut the fuck up.
00:49:32.967 --> 00:49:33.146
The
00:49:33.146 --> 00:49:35.336
court questioned jurors about the incidents.
00:49:35.907 --> 00:49:38.726
One juror was removed and replaced with an alternate,
00:49:38.996 --> 00:49:39.956
which I love that.
00:49:39.956 --> 00:49:41.996
That's part of it, is that there's alternates,
00:49:42.306 --> 00:49:45.697
and that jury was instructed to begin deliberations all over again.
00:49:45.757 --> 00:49:46.056
So they
00:49:46.056 --> 00:49:46.356
did.
00:49:47.286 --> 00:49:50.496
And I, I get it.
00:49:50.496 --> 00:49:56.976
And I understand for the ti the time and money aspect, you can't unring a bell.
00:49:56.976 --> 00:50:02.737
So even if someone introduces something in the court in front of the jury and the judge says, you can't take that into account.
00:50:05.692 --> 00:50:10.371
I don't know how, and there's surely there's ways to do it.
00:50:10.612 --> 00:50:15.291
That would be very tough for me, even if I didn't voice about something that I heard.
00:50:15.472 --> 00:50:15.561
Mm-hmm.
00:50:16.552 --> 00:50:20.121
For me to not have that as part of my personal decision.
00:50:20.152 --> 00:50:20.902
Correct.
00:50:21.112 --> 00:50:23.121
You can't unring that bell.
00:50:23.181 --> 00:50:23.961
That bell.
00:50:24.291 --> 00:50:27.291
As soon as you say, don't pay attention, ignore that.
00:50:27.472 --> 00:50:27.831
Boom.
00:50:27.831 --> 00:50:28.612
It's locked in.
00:50:28.702 --> 00:50:31.101
I'm remembering it until I definitely remembering it.
00:50:31.161 --> 00:50:31.251
Death.
00:50:31.492 --> 00:50:33.592
I'm taking that all the way to heart.
00:50:34.402 --> 00:50:38.331
But even though they, they started their jury de deliberation
00:50:38.331 --> 00:50:38.931
mm-hmm.
00:50:38.938 --> 00:50:39.706
Deliberations,
00:50:40.246 --> 00:50:41.211
we got this,
00:50:42.052 --> 00:50:44.601
uh, that they were instructed to start all over again.
00:50:45.172 --> 00:50:48.442
By the end of that day, the jury had returned the verdict.
00:50:48.532 --> 00:50:48.802
Yeah.
00:50:48.862 --> 00:50:50.452
They said, okay, we got our ducks in a row.
00:50:50.452 --> 00:50:53.842
Now, now we know not to, not to be doing the things
00:50:53.871 --> 00:50:55.702
and we definitely don't share.
00:50:56.271 --> 00:50:57.592
Uh, Ciccone was,
00:50:57.592 --> 00:50:58.402
they wanted out of there.
00:50:59.246 --> 00:51:01.521
Ciccone was found guilty of first degree murder.
00:51:01.911 --> 00:51:04.731
And the death of Kathleen and second degree murder.
00:51:04.731 --> 00:51:06.081
In the death of the fetus.
00:51:07.762 --> 00:51:13.822
On February 10th, 2005, ney filed a motion for a new trial based on the juror conduct.
00:51:14.661 --> 00:51:21.922
The motion was heard on March 8th, 2005, and a few days later, the court issued a written order denying the motion.
00:51:22.251 --> 00:51:22.731
Oh, they said nah.
00:51:23.842 --> 00:51:24.231
Mm-hmm.
00:51:25.206 --> 00:51:28.192
The, the sentencing hearing was held in June.
00:51:28.681 --> 00:51:37.981
after hearing statements from the victim's family and arguments from the counsel, the court sentenced Ciccone to a fixed life sentence for the murder of Kathleen.
00:51:38.791 --> 00:51:42.061
He was sentenced to 15 years in prison for the death of the fetus.
00:51:44.552 --> 00:51:45.601
Big sentences.
00:51:45.632 --> 00:51:45.811
Mm-hmm.
00:51:47.552 --> 00:52:01.771
Following sentencing, a judgment and commitment order was entered and the document was initially filed with a date that proceeded the sentencing hearing before the court later entered an amend amended judgment correcting the filing date.
00:52:02.192 --> 00:52:06.751
So this was, this is, um,
00:52:07.141 --> 00:52:08.431
is this like a typo?
00:52:08.521 --> 00:52:09.422
Yeah.
00:52:09.751 --> 00:52:10.262
Ooh.
00:52:10.262 --> 00:52:11.282
And that can be very
00:52:11.762 --> 00:52:12.422
dangerous.
00:52:12.452 --> 00:52:12.572
Yeah.
00:52:12.572 --> 00:52:12.661
In
00:52:12.661 --> 00:52:13.351
this realm.
00:52:14.822 --> 00:52:20.572
On August 2nd of oh five, Ciccone filed a notice of appeal in the appeal.
00:52:20.592 --> 00:52:27.431
Ciccone challenged the delay between his arrest and trial, arguing that the continuance granted in the July, 2004.
00:52:28.882 --> 00:52:51.742
resulted in a violation of his right to a speedy trial, and he also challenged statements made during closing arguments, including the prosecution's statement that only two people knew what occurred, and that Kathleen was not present to provide her account, along with the argument that there was no testimony indicating he had been distracted or unaware of her presence.
00:52:56.902 --> 00:53:01.851
Again, this is one of those things where I think it's a relevant appeal.
00:53:01.911 --> 00:53:02.211
Thank you.
00:53:02.422 --> 00:53:03.081
Okay.
00:53:03.081 --> 00:53:09.742
It is relevant, like nobody said, how I could have been distracted or not seen her
00:53:11.032 --> 00:53:13.161
and the speedy trial is the biggest thing
00:53:13.161 --> 00:53:14.302
that, that's it for me
00:53:14.692 --> 00:53:15.291
like and.
00:53:17.047 --> 00:53:23.286
It's the court's responsibility to hear and weigh these out to fi better.
00:53:23.286 --> 00:53:24.217
Fine tune.
00:53:24.277 --> 00:53:26.407
Our justice system is never gonna be perfect.
00:53:26.496 --> 00:53:26.646
No,
00:53:26.887 --> 00:53:28.626
because there's a million different, the
00:53:28.626 --> 00:53:31.117
speedy trial really fucks with me because I feel it fucks
00:53:31.117 --> 00:53:31.657
with me.
00:53:32.077 --> 00:53:53.137
Um, I feel like the people that they were wanting to, and I didn't find this, I'm assuming the people that were overseas that they couldn't find weren't the neighbors that saw her hit, they were his buddies at the Air Force that probably had some information or would testify to the relationship.
00:53:53.137 --> 00:53:53.146
Mm-hmm.
00:53:53.617 --> 00:53:54.726
Not the actual act.
00:53:54.726 --> 00:53:54.817
Not
00:53:54.817 --> 00:53:55.177
critical.
00:53:55.192 --> 00:53:55.411
Not
00:53:55.771 --> 00:53:56.376
critical, not the act.
00:53:56.376 --> 00:54:01.237
I mean, it builds up a whole case, but for it to be held up on your character,
00:54:01.266 --> 00:54:02.556
like a character witness.
00:54:02.556 --> 00:54:02.706
No.
00:54:03.077 --> 00:54:03.226
And
00:54:03.226 --> 00:54:05.356
that's why these protections are in place.
00:54:05.356 --> 00:54:05.717
Yes.
00:54:06.556 --> 00:54:14.987
And again, there was also, within all that, there was additional arguments addressing that juror conduct that happened during deliberations.
00:54:15.856 --> 00:54:20.266
where the court had moved that one juror and replaced it with an alternate.
00:54:21.376 --> 00:54:23.117
But koi challenged whether
00:54:24.137 --> 00:54:25.157
that was sufficient.
00:54:25.637 --> 00:54:27.436
That's exactly what I have written down.
00:54:27.586 --> 00:54:29.271
You cannot unring that bell.
00:54:29.271 --> 00:54:29.512
Right.
00:54:29.652 --> 00:54:31.472
And so it's the,
00:54:31.652 --> 00:54:41.507
you can even say that you have for me, maybe some people can and be like, I will not let that be any part of my decision making my brain do not work that way.
00:54:41.572 --> 00:54:41.992
Mm-hmm.
00:54:42.407 --> 00:54:44.327
It's there, it's, the seeds have been planted.
00:54:45.376 --> 00:54:55.246
The appeal addressed the overall timeline of the case, including the period between the arrest, charging, and trial, and the reasons provided for the continuance.
00:54:55.771 --> 00:54:59.311
With arguments presented regarding the availability of those witnesses.
00:55:01.021 --> 00:55:25.041
In the briefing that followed, Ciccone argued that the delay between his arrest and the trial extended beyond one year, and that the continuance granted in July of oh four was not supported by sufficient cause, asserting that the absence of a witness assigned to Mountain Home Air Force Base did not justify postponing the trial for several months.
00:55:25.851 --> 00:55:39.501
He argued that the statements made during the closing argument and properly referenced his decision not to testify, focusing on the prosecution's statement that only two people knew what occurred, and that Kathleen was not present to provide her account.
00:55:39.981 --> 00:55:47.641
As well as the argument that there was no testimony indicating that he had been distracted, before the collision.
00:55:47.822 --> 00:55:51.331
That seems a little bit more murky to me, but sure, they've they've got it.
00:55:51.632 --> 00:55:57.601
You've gotta pull out all the punches, and that's how this works.
00:56:00.782 --> 00:56:21.572
cni further, further challenge the handling of that juror conduct, arguing that the introduction of the outside information and the report of a juror overhearing the lead investigator discussing the case, created a risk of prejudice that was not cured by removing one juror, substituting an alternate and restarting deliberations.
00:56:22.411 --> 00:56:23.192
That bell.
00:56:25.021 --> 00:56:26.672
This is, I would totally,
00:56:26.911 --> 00:56:27.867
if it was me, whether
00:56:28.027 --> 00:56:29.746
I was with that guilty or innocent
00:56:29.896 --> 00:56:30.186
with
00:56:30.302 --> 00:56:32.192
that juror tampering bullshit.
00:56:33.121 --> 00:56:34.981
It fucks no.
00:56:35.101 --> 00:56:35.431
Nope.
00:56:35.702 --> 00:56:37.021
If you're gonna be a
00:56:37.322 --> 00:56:37.981
juror.
00:56:38.867 --> 00:56:40.487
First off, you're better than me.
00:56:41.117 --> 00:56:41.717
Good for you.
00:56:42.286 --> 00:56:45.527
But you have to mind your P's and Q's and
00:56:45.527 --> 00:56:45.947
encourage your peers.
00:56:45.947 --> 00:56:50.871
You're literally go sentencing somebody to fucking life in prison.
00:56:51.251 --> 00:56:51.672
Mm-hmm.
00:56:52.251 --> 00:56:53.431
Or 20 years.
00:56:53.431 --> 00:56:53.992
Years in prison
00:56:54.047 --> 00:56:54.166
even.
00:56:54.166 --> 00:56:54.827
It's five years.
00:56:54.827 --> 00:56:57.347
Could you imagine losing five years of your life?
00:56:57.646 --> 00:56:58.876
I would never recover.
00:56:58.876 --> 00:57:01.126
Oh, I would never fucking recover.
00:57:01.157 --> 00:57:02.657
So you gotta take it seriously.
00:57:02.896 --> 00:57:03.106
Qui.
00:57:03.106 --> 00:57:04.876
Be back talking shit.
00:57:05.086 --> 00:57:06.407
Don't be whispering.
00:57:06.407 --> 00:57:06.737
Follow
00:57:06.737 --> 00:57:07.306
the rules.
00:57:07.306 --> 00:57:09.166
Follow the goddamn rules.
00:57:09.197 --> 00:57:09.407
'cause
00:57:09.407 --> 00:57:10.186
you will fuck it
00:57:10.186 --> 00:57:10.427
up.
00:57:10.456 --> 00:57:11.626
Thank you for your service.
00:57:11.657 --> 00:57:13.487
Yes, appreciate it.
00:57:14.027 --> 00:57:23.536
In response to State argued that the delay was supported by the unavailability of those material witnesses and that the continuance was necessary to ensure the presence at trial.
00:57:24.197 --> 00:57:28.157
Listen, I wanted to find out what was so important.
00:57:28.157 --> 00:57:28.876
I couldn't find it.
00:57:29.056 --> 00:57:35.356
I couldn't find what was so important to this trial that had to be, had, had to what these witnesses had.
00:57:36.811 --> 00:57:37.592
I couldn't find it.
00:57:37.681 --> 00:57:38.612
I was so disappointed.
00:57:40.802 --> 00:57:49.472
The state also maintained that the district court acted with, in its discretion, in granting the motion and denying the motion to dismiss.
00:57:50.282 --> 00:58:00.842
The state argued that the statements made during the closing argument were proper comments on the evidence and did not reference Cheney's decision not to testify.
00:58:01.322 --> 00:58:06.422
And it maintained that the district court properly addressed the juror issues by removing the affected juror.
00:58:08.552 --> 00:58:10.981
I don't like that affected your,
00:58:12.092 --> 00:58:14.702
the pool is tainted, in my opinion.
00:58:14.882 --> 00:58:14.972
Mm-hmm.
00:58:16.231 --> 00:58:17.431
But it's all made better.
00:58:17.431 --> 00:58:20.612
But because they instructed the jury to begin deliberations again.
00:58:20.702 --> 00:58:20.942
Yeah.
00:58:20.942 --> 00:58:21.902
Start, start.
00:58:22.141 --> 00:58:23.731
And you can do that and.
00:58:24.286 --> 00:58:43.722
Maybe there, maybe people aren't generally like me in this way to where I don't think I could not, I'm such a context person if I've heard it, even if I'm not bringing it to the jury table in that room, that is going to part of my decision.
00:58:43.981 --> 00:58:44.402
Mm-hmm.
00:58:44.481 --> 00:58:44.922
Because
00:58:45.791 --> 00:58:47.356
it's locked and loaded, it's
00:58:47.356 --> 00:58:47.536
in there.
00:58:47.536 --> 00:58:52.277
Oh, I, I need the context.
00:58:52.306 --> 00:58:52.396
Mm-hmm.
00:58:52.637 --> 00:58:55.876
And that, that's what guides me.
00:58:55.876 --> 00:58:58.487
And that's like, like a core principle for me.
00:58:58.487 --> 00:59:03.286
So I wouldn't be able to have the self-restraint to do it.
00:59:03.286 --> 00:59:05.806
I would have the self-restraint to not talk about it.
00:59:07.847 --> 00:59:16.456
And I might find other reasons to say why I am saying no or yes and not say the real reason if that was like the real reason.
00:59:16.786 --> 00:59:17.327
Sure.
00:59:17.717 --> 00:59:18.356
I could do that.
00:59:19.847 --> 00:59:21.166
And I'm not saying that's right.
00:59:21.226 --> 00:59:22.967
That's, that's why I shouldn't be on a jury.
00:59:23.567 --> 00:59:24.706
It, it truly is.
00:59:24.706 --> 00:59:26.177
I shouldn't be on a jury.
00:59:26.177 --> 00:59:26.297
You
00:59:26.297 --> 00:59:27.371
cannot disregard it.
00:59:27.376 --> 00:59:29.777
It would be just, it would be very difficult for me to
00:59:29.782 --> 00:59:30.291
disregard.
00:59:30.291 --> 00:59:32.206
How do you erase something from your head?
00:59:32.266 --> 00:59:32.536
Yeah.
00:59:33.286 --> 00:59:39.317
Like imagine if your partner wronged you in some way and they're like, actually per the rules, you have to erase that from your head.
00:59:39.317 --> 00:59:41.896
And this can't be a part of any of our discussions ever.
00:59:44.206 --> 00:59:44.896
It's not happening.
00:59:44.927 --> 00:59:46.367
It's not fucking happening.
00:59:46.367 --> 00:59:46.726
For me,
00:59:48.646 --> 00:59:58.396
in the Appellate's court decision, the court concluded that the delay in bringing the case to trial did not violate toe's right to a speedy trial.
00:59:58.967 --> 01:00:06.137
Finding that the reasons for the continuance, including the unavailability of witnesses, supported the district court's decision.
01:00:07.952 --> 01:00:08.911
I wish I knew you
01:00:09.101 --> 01:00:10.112
guys time.
01:00:10.112 --> 01:00:15.976
You knew, and I feel like they're like, well yeah, we can't delay it if for other delays, but if it's us,
01:00:16.126 --> 01:00:17.387
that's my assumption.
01:00:17.822 --> 01:00:19.532
Please legal people
01:00:19.592 --> 01:00:20.041
if you
01:00:20.041 --> 01:00:21.601
have an opinion or know why.
01:00:22.141 --> 01:00:27.452
I feel like they're like, yeah, but we caused the delay so we we could delay if fault.
01:00:27.586 --> 01:00:28.266
I just don't know
01:00:28.367 --> 01:00:28.786
our fault.
01:00:29.702 --> 01:00:32.521
What the prosecution,
01:00:34.052 --> 01:00:35.192
what made it so important?
01:00:35.342 --> 01:00:35.762
Right.
01:00:35.972 --> 01:00:43.501
I and God, I wish I, I wish I looked, I looked, I looked, I looked, um,'cause a lot of times I get information about what happened.
01:00:43.501 --> 01:00:43.592
Mm-hmm.
01:00:43.831 --> 01:00:46.891
In court I got zero, zilch, nothing.
01:00:46.891 --> 01:00:49.081
They were very hush hush about this,
01:00:49.081 --> 01:00:51.961
which doesn't surprise me involving the military.
01:00:52.172 --> 01:00:52.771
Oh, maybe
01:00:52.771 --> 01:00:54.061
almost always.
01:00:54.271 --> 01:00:57.106
They do not want these cases to be,
01:00:57.112 --> 01:01:03.871
maybe they went to, maybe they went and just like report on it, but don't,'cause there was nothing, there was no court test.
01:01:04.592 --> 01:01:08.222
Look, the statesman always gives me court testimony.
01:01:08.311 --> 01:01:09.692
Statesman.
01:01:09.782 --> 01:01:11.192
I didn't get shit here.
01:01:12.797 --> 01:01:28.186
The court also concluded that the statements made during closing, the closing argument did not constitute an improper comment on Choi's decision not to testify, and that they were within the scope of permissible argument based on the evidence presented at trial.
01:01:28.516 --> 01:01:30.286
I don't even know what the closing argument was.
01:01:30.527 --> 01:01:31.186
I'm pissed.
01:01:31.217 --> 01:01:32.146
I wanna know.
01:01:32.717 --> 01:01:33.766
We wanna know.
01:01:34.336 --> 01:01:34.547
It's
01:01:34.547 --> 01:01:35.597
out there in the ether.
01:01:36.257 --> 01:01:49.456
With respect to the juror conduct, the court concluded that the district court did not abuse its discretion in removing the one juror, substituting the alternate and requiring the jury to begin deliberations again.
01:01:50.146 --> 01:01:51.436
They said that's
01:01:51.797 --> 01:01:52.666
par for the course.
01:01:52.666 --> 01:01:53.237
Good enough,
01:01:53.327 --> 01:01:59.717
and they probably, they're usually coming to this with like multiple cases where that's happened and it's been accepted.
01:01:59.746 --> 01:02:00.827
It's good enough precedent.
01:02:01.007 --> 01:02:01.277
Yep.
01:02:01.367 --> 01:02:03.856
They, I'm sure they were able to show precedent.
01:02:04.532 --> 01:02:04.711
So
01:02:04.711 --> 01:02:06.992
I would hope we don't know, but I would hope,
01:02:07.831 --> 01:02:11.702
oh, there was lots of, I prob I could have prob I did not include those.
01:02:11.702 --> 01:02:12.931
You guys would've been bored with that.
01:02:13.492 --> 01:02:14.601
but I do have that.
01:02:14.632 --> 01:02:16.521
You break it down very nicely for us.
01:02:16.641 --> 01:02:17.331
Thank you, ma'am.
01:02:18.231 --> 01:02:22.041
The court affirmed the judgment and the sentences imposed.
01:02:22.942 --> 01:02:26.391
Ciccone is currently 49 and in custody Wow.
01:02:26.422 --> 01:02:28.431
At the Idaho State Correctional Center.
01:02:32.632 --> 01:02:36.831
Look, I am, I I just don't like the way the court went down.
01:02:36.922 --> 01:02:39.047
I'm just gonna say it, um, it, it was,
01:02:39.411 --> 01:02:40.911
it was risky business.
01:02:41.181 --> 01:02:41.302
Mm-hmm.
01:02:41.302 --> 01:02:49.161
And you don't want that in court just because things can pop up and it drags the family back through.
01:02:49.251 --> 01:02:49.521
Yeah.
01:02:50.001 --> 01:02:50.512
And it,
01:02:51.081 --> 01:02:53.512
but there hasn't been any other appeals or anything.
01:02:54.472 --> 01:02:55.041
Weird.
01:02:55.041 --> 01:02:55.702
So,
01:02:55.822 --> 01:02:56.271
okay.
01:02:56.271 --> 01:02:58.521
I do, I do think he should rot again.
01:02:58.762 --> 01:02:58.822
Yeah.
01:02:58.822 --> 01:03:00.077
This is something that like, you
01:03:00.141 --> 01:03:00.952
don't accidentally,
01:03:00.952 --> 01:03:04.222
in those Facebook groups, people are not able to reconcile that.
01:03:04.222 --> 01:03:06.652
Like, I don't think that he should be free.
01:03:06.652 --> 01:03:08.121
I'm not fighting on behalf.
01:03:08.121 --> 01:03:08.211
Right.
01:03:08.211 --> 01:03:17.481
I'm saying, guys, this move to do the thing where we're saying it is still a speedy trial, does it fit it like that?
01:03:17.541 --> 01:03:20.032
I'm asking a question, I'm not a lawyer.
01:03:20.152 --> 01:03:20.601
Like mm-hmm.
01:03:20.842 --> 01:03:30.112
And people will be like, you hate the family and you wanted her to, people say the wildest shit, you guys, the fucking wildest shit.
01:03:30.112 --> 01:03:30.351
That
01:03:30.351 --> 01:03:30.592
is
01:03:30.592 --> 01:03:38.871
an and also fun fact, when I used to do the Facebook groups a lot, it was when it was being like Facebook was being very heavily censored.
01:03:38.871 --> 01:03:43.012
But I, I told someone that I said, Hey.
01:03:43.552 --> 01:03:50.032
Hey sis, you are acting like a silly goose because someone was losing their absolute shit in the comments.
01:03:50.032 --> 01:03:55.371
And we, our philosophy was let let the, let the group run the group.
01:03:55.371 --> 01:03:59.242
Like we're not some groups, if you say one thing bad, you're out.
01:03:59.572 --> 01:04:02.842
So I was like, and that, and that's why people liked our group.
01:04:03.141 --> 01:04:09.952
But you know, we tried to go in and be like, the bumpers, if you're like bumper bowling, like, Hey bro, racist much.
01:04:10.192 --> 01:04:13.132
Just so you know, like, that is a hot take.
01:04:13.132 --> 01:04:15.172
Like everyone, let's, let's calm down.
01:04:15.172 --> 01:04:18.141
This is, people can have bad theories.
01:04:18.141 --> 01:04:19.762
That's not illegal.
01:04:20.032 --> 01:04:26.992
And I, I told someone that they were acting like a silly goose and I got banned from Facebook for like a week.
01:04:27.322 --> 01:04:31.161
Couldn't comment or beep a part of groups for like a month.
01:04:32.181 --> 01:04:37.012
This was, and I had, I had no previous strikes or anything and I was just like,
01:04:37.342 --> 01:04:38.751
look at you being controversial.
01:04:38.751 --> 01:04:42.351
That was, that was me making it.
01:04:42.742 --> 01:04:46.402
I wanted to say, listen up, cunt, like you're
01:04:46.402 --> 01:04:47.782
being lighthearted about
01:04:47.782 --> 01:04:48.351
it.
01:04:48.382 --> 01:04:48.831
Okay.
01:04:48.831 --> 01:04:49.942
Let's be silly.
01:04:49.942 --> 01:04:55.791
I'm just being, I'm trying to keep the peace for everyone and I got absolutely slammed for it.
01:04:55.791 --> 01:05:00.291
So, man, the memories, I, I love those memories.
01:05:00.291 --> 01:05:03.262
I've met some of my dearest friends.
01:05:03.922 --> 01:05:15.952
I've never had online friends before and I have now had online friends for like six years and I ride for them like I do my in real life friends.
01:05:15.952 --> 01:05:17.572
They are amazing women.
01:05:17.621 --> 01:05:19.842
so it, I'm so happy for it.
01:05:20.592 --> 01:05:36.612
But damn them Facebook groups, there's just, they have a, there's a little bit of a stench coming off'em and I don't know if I'll ever get, get down like that again, but, and for all the people that are listening from the Facebook group.
01:05:37.376 --> 01:05:38.186
I loved it.
01:05:38.186 --> 01:05:41.757
I still love it, but you all know what I'm talking about.
01:05:41.757 --> 01:05:44.907
I feel like ours were the best, but you know what I'm talking about.
01:05:45.867 --> 01:05:49.286
This isn't to every Facebook crime group user.
01:05:52.197 --> 01:05:52.586
Wow,
01:05:52.586 --> 01:05:53.126
sis.
01:05:53.427 --> 01:05:53.757
Yeah.
01:05:53.762 --> 01:06:12.927
And I, I wish that I could have had or trial business, so if someone has the in, uh, because I'd really like to know, like looking at it, hovering over it, a country road.
01:06:13.257 --> 01:06:16.436
You, you, there's no obstructed views.
01:06:17.427 --> 01:06:21.476
I also think that maybe he was just completely mad, like
01:06:21.507 --> 01:06:31.402
you could be driving in a blind rage and sp because listen, I have a sped down a road just to speed down a road in like I know my emotions driving that and.
01:06:32.172 --> 01:06:35.561
I'm not saying no, but I, I, I don't, I just don't,
01:06:36.612 --> 01:06:37.782
I, I don't like
01:06:37.782 --> 01:06:39.101
how the trial went down.
01:06:39.101 --> 01:06:41.681
I do not like that because I do believe
01:06:41.952 --> 01:06:42.161
they
01:06:42.161 --> 01:06:42.822
left a lot of
01:06:42.822 --> 01:06:44.112
openings for appeal.
01:06:44.862 --> 01:06:51.371
Appeals, appeals, appeals, and you know, luckily it all went the state's way.
01:06:52.601 --> 01:07:01.121
But geez, to drive the family through all that and unnecessarily over probably a couple of his buddies saying,
01:07:01.121 --> 01:07:07.001
and listen, even if it was a accident, I'm sorry, someone still died, is my opinion.
01:07:07.001 --> 01:07:17.431
There's people, just it being an accident is not enough to have, you have no consequence.
01:07:17.431 --> 01:07:24.992
And I feel like some people, when they're in that situation and it is an innocent accident, it's like, yeah, but someone died.
01:07:25.891 --> 01:07:29.791
You weren't pulling out of a parking space at five miles an hour.
01:07:30.016 --> 01:07:36.586
No, and I, and, and didn't see the guy turning, doing 15, I'd have a fucking fit, by the way.
01:07:36.592 --> 01:07:36.702
Mm-hmm.
01:07:36.786 --> 01:07:38.507
Because I'm super careful about backing out.
01:07:39.702 --> 01:07:52.217
I I, I don't, there wasn't enough information for me, for me to have a decisive decision, like either way, because I don't have that information available to me.
01:07:52.396 --> 01:07:52.757
Yeah.
01:07:52.876 --> 01:07:54.737
On whether it was an accident or delivery a court
01:07:54.737 --> 01:07:54.916
case.
01:07:54.916 --> 01:07:55.036
Yeah.
01:07:55.067 --> 01:07:55.336
Right.
01:07:55.427 --> 01:07:57.222
And, but he must
01:07:57.242 --> 01:07:58.936
com What was he saying was distracting,
01:07:58.967 --> 01:07:59.177
right?
01:07:59.177 --> 01:07:59.327
Is what
01:07:59.327 --> 01:07:59.626
you're saying?
01:07:59.626 --> 01:07:59.836
Yeah.
01:07:59.981 --> 01:08:11.266
I, I don't have any of that information, but what I can say is he was convicted, but I don't like the withholding of the witness, like not the speedy trial.
01:08:11.266 --> 01:08:14.867
That's my big fucking hangup because I feel like,
01:08:15.527 --> 01:08:16.426
and I'm just, this,
01:08:16.426 --> 01:08:17.506
there's a lot of assumption.
01:08:17.506 --> 01:08:20.327
It sets an unhealthy precedent for anyone.
01:08:20.537 --> 01:08:27.436
This if someone's on vacation or sabbatical or your friend that is a free spirit and is living in Taiwan.
01:08:27.886 --> 01:08:28.606
For now.
01:08:28.817 --> 01:08:31.546
And that's the, that's the thing that they're saying.
01:08:31.546 --> 01:08:33.436
They're holding it up for they can keep you jail
01:08:33.436 --> 01:08:39.646
unless your friend is testifying that you said, I'm going to murder her or
01:08:39.676 --> 01:08:39.856
Yeah.
01:08:39.856 --> 01:08:40.096
Where's
01:08:40.096 --> 01:08:40.247
the line?
01:08:40.247 --> 01:08:41.207
I don't need to listen.
01:08:41.296 --> 01:08:43.216
Look, I don't need the testimony.
01:08:43.216 --> 01:08:44.867
Who is, she lights up every room.
01:08:45.046 --> 01:08:50.686
No, I don't need the testimony that you're like, uh, well, he said she was a bitch
01:08:52.396 --> 01:08:53.117
and
01:08:53.806 --> 01:08:56.372
like you're holding up the speedy trial thing.
01:08:56.391 --> 01:08:58.971
So to hold up and that's a very dangerous thing.
01:08:58.971 --> 01:09:00.346
So I really wish I knew.
01:09:00.766 --> 01:09:07.247
So what we're saying is, or what I'm saying is, I won't speak for you, but I think he absolutely did it.
01:09:07.247 --> 01:09:26.627
I think he did it intentionally based on all the prev, so many men do not do well with having to face their flaws and that counseling session and then true that, and then having food thrown at you, which even for me as a woman, oh my god.
01:09:30.346 --> 01:09:31.457
I know she was pregnant.
01:09:31.697 --> 01:09:33.346
I'm not saying that this is right at all.
01:09:33.346 --> 01:09:39.077
This is not affecting, but that's like some, some people, it's, if you spit on me, if you, which is another, like mm-hmm.
01:09:39.617 --> 01:09:45.046
There's things that will make me absolutely, like some people can be a door slammed, like you wanna escalate it.
01:09:45.992 --> 01:09:47.476
Uh, I've escalate it.
01:09:47.532 --> 01:09:47.692
Right.
01:09:47.697 --> 01:09:53.056
So I can see, again, not justifying, but all, all this together.
01:09:53.056 --> 01:09:54.737
I absolutely think that he did it.
01:09:54.737 --> 01:09:56.506
I think that he did it on purpose.
01:09:57.527 --> 01:10:02.596
The speedy trial stuff sucks, and I don't like the precedent that it sets.
01:10:02.596 --> 01:10:13.457
I don't, again, now if I get a jaywalking ticket and they're like, oh, well your friend that's in Hawaii for the next six months, we can't, they're busy.
01:10:13.457 --> 01:10:16.487
So I guess you gotta sit here.
01:10:17.027 --> 01:10:17.447
That's
01:10:17.447 --> 01:10:19.277
a dangerous precedent to set.
01:10:19.457 --> 01:10:19.726
Yeah.
01:10:19.862 --> 01:10:22.936
That's, that's the crux of the argument
01:10:23.417 --> 01:10:25.167
and that's why I found this so interesting is.
01:10:25.907 --> 01:10:27.527
The trial portion.
01:10:27.617 --> 01:10:28.096
Right.
01:10:28.096 --> 01:10:31.457
Because we had that, the new Fetus law.
01:10:31.697 --> 01:10:31.787
Mm-hmm.
01:10:32.027 --> 01:10:41.176
That he was convicted on the speedy trial thing, the jury, it, it, it was just very messy.
01:10:41.386 --> 01:10:41.716
Yeah.
01:10:41.716 --> 01:10:43.157
It was a mess front
01:10:43.157 --> 01:10:43.577
to back.
01:10:43.577 --> 01:10:43.636
Um,
01:10:43.697 --> 01:10:44.117
but
01:10:44.117 --> 01:10:46.186
poor Kathleen, I mean,
01:10:46.186 --> 01:10:59.327
she didn't deserve this and it horrific and a split second decision that absolutely rocks the community and takes a life.
01:10:59.417 --> 01:11:09.796
Like, it's terrible that when shit gets this bad, it just, it hurts in so many ways for so many people.
01:11:09.856 --> 01:11:12.287
So thank you guys for listening.
01:11:12.377 --> 01:11:13.067
Um,
01:11:13.577 --> 01:11:15.527
thank you to all our new listeners.
01:11:15.617 --> 01:11:16.096
Yeah.
01:11:16.096 --> 01:11:19.787
We've been seeing you guys really pumping up the listen.
01:11:19.787 --> 01:11:21.856
So if you're a new listener, welcome.
01:11:21.856 --> 01:11:23.596
If you are an OG listener.
01:11:24.181 --> 01:11:26.462
Thank you so fucking much.
01:11:26.702 --> 01:11:33.542
We know that we've got so many that ride for us every week, and I just want you guys to know that we appreciate you.
01:11:33.782 --> 01:11:39.692
If you're a first time listener, I hope, I hope you enjoyed and we're always open to feedback.
01:11:40.112 --> 01:11:44.162
you can reach out to us at the Lethal library@gmail.com.
01:11:44.521 --> 01:11:45.962
We have TikTok, Facebook.
01:11:45.962 --> 01:11:49.891
That's where we're most active, just trying to make little funny sies for you guys.
01:11:49.891 --> 01:11:50.731
We love those.
01:11:51.341 --> 01:11:53.712
we make an ass for ourselves for your enjoyment,
01:11:53.801 --> 01:11:55.872
and we'll do it again.
01:11:56.202 --> 01:11:59.801
We will do it again, um, to an extent.
01:12:00.131 --> 01:12:03.851
Uh, but um, yeah, thank you guys.
01:12:03.851 --> 01:12:05.891
And that's all I've got for today.
01:12:05.891 --> 01:12:06.551
How about you, Danny?
01:12:07.212 --> 01:12:07.811
I'm good.
01:12:07.931 --> 01:12:09.462
All right, well, ten four rubber ducky.
01:12:09.641 --> 01:12:10.212
Fuck yeah.
01:12:32.127 --> 01:12:37.257
Hey friends, we wanna talk about some of the subjects that are a little bit heavier on our podcast.
01:12:37.597 --> 01:12:41.797
abuse isn't your fault and there are safe, confidential ways to get help.
01:12:42.307 --> 01:12:44.738
Domestic violence doesn't always look the same.
01:12:45.158 --> 01:12:47.768
It isn't just bruises or broken bones.
01:12:48.037 --> 01:12:54.728
It can be about controlling money, isolating you from your friends, constant surveillance or threats against your kids and pets.
01:12:55.478 --> 01:13:00.578
Abuse thrives in silence and breaking that silence is the first step to safety.
01:13:01.118 --> 01:13:04.688
the National Domestic Violence Hotline is available twenty four seven.
01:13:04.927 --> 01:13:14.887
Call 1 807 9 9 SAFE or 7 2 3 3 or text start to 8 8 7 8 8.
01:13:15.368 --> 01:13:18.757
You can also chat@thehotline.org.
01:13:19.403 --> 01:13:23.632
Advocates can help safety plan with you even if you're not ready to leave.
01:13:24.113 --> 01:13:27.832
If you're worried that your device is being monitored, it may be safest to call.
01:13:28.523 --> 01:13:30.712
Teens and young adults can also contact.
01:13:30.712 --> 01:13:38.273
Love is Respect at 8 6 6 3 3 1 9 4 7 4 or text.
01:13:38.273 --> 01:13:41.662
Love is 2 2 2 5, 2 2.
01:13:42.353 --> 01:13:53.002
For Native American and Alaska native survivors strong heart's, native helpline offers culturally specific 24 7 support at 8 4 4 7 native.
01:13:53.662 --> 01:13:57.563
If you are someone near you is in immediate danger, please call 9 1 1.
01:13:58.042 --> 01:13:58.972
You deserve safety.