56. Dismemberment and Deception: The Tragic Story of Ronald Needs

WEBVTT
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A headless armless torso was found beneath a wooden door in the Boise foothills.
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The victim had been missing only two days.
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His wife told police he walked away during a fishing trip and was never seen again.
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What followed?
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Exposed, a history of violence and a hidden past.
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What?
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An opening.
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Okay.
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Wow.
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Straight to the point.
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Holy shit.
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This is gonna be an interesting one.
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Yeah.
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This is kind of scaring me that we have two, uh, headless episodes in short order, but here we go.
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I found it and
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I'm like,
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this is juicy.
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So,
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right.
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Let's into it.
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Okay, welcome back everyone to another episode of the Lethal Library.
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I'm Stephanie.
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And I'm Danny.
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And today we have yet another true crime tale directly out of the potato state, Idaho
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Tater Land.
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Good old Taland, if you will.
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Yes.
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Danny, what are we in store for today?
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This already is out of control.
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Yes.
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Sources used today are articles from the Los Angeles Evening Citizen News, Pasadena Independent, Kellogg Evening News, Idaho Statesman, of course, Santa Barbara News Press, San Bernardino County Sun and Coeur d'Alene Press.
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Wow.
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I was very busy.
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yeah.
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This was all over the place.
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Yeah.
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On June 27th, 1976, Ronald needs a 33-year-old Payette Butcher was reported missing by his wife Sally needs.
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She told Elmore County authorities that she and her husband had been traveling in their motor home and had been fishing.
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She said they had argued they'd been drinking and that Ronald needs had taken sleeping pills, pills.
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Fuck
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sleep in pales with the liquor.
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With the liquor.
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Not a, not a good combo.
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Folks.
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According to her account, he left the motor home and didn't return.
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Oh, went on an adventure.
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Mm-hmm.
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A drunken sleeping pill adventure.
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Deputy deputies accompanied her, accompanied her in an effort to locate the place where she had said she had last seen him.
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But she was unable to identify a specific location matching her description,
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uh, over yonder.
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Just over there somewhere, that general area.
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He left.
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Two days later on June 29th, an elderly Emmett man traveling along a dirt road in the Boise foothills, noticed an old wooden door lying lengthwise near the roadway.
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He stopped, and as he got a little closer.
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Noticed two feet sticking out from beyond the door.
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Mm-hmm.
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Mm-hmm.
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The man discovered what appeared to be a human body wrapped in a sheet.
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The body was headless and armless and partially burned.
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Oh my gosh.
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He reported the discovery to the sheriff's office in Emmett because he said it was quicker and easier than traveling farther to make a report.
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'cause it was right on the.
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On the border.
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Yeah.
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He's like, get the people, you guys tell
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the people too quick.
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Let's go.
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Jim County deputies responded and were joined by ADA County authorities.
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The site was located about three quarters of a mile east of Milepost 16, just inside the ADA County, Jim County line.
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So I put this into the chat.
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Mm-hmm.
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To help me find it.
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And so it's off of Highway 16.
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Okay.
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And basically it was Beacon Light.
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Really?
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Okay.
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Before Beacon Light was Beacon Light.
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Okay,
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so anyways, locals,
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now I know the area.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Now you know where the area is at.
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Investigators found the torso wrapped in a sheet with that wooden door placed on top of it.
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burned debris and partially burned clothing.
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We're scattered around the body.
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This already shit show written all over it.
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I mean, we are not carefully planning.
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Tried to burn a body, and especially back then before all the true crime people probably thought you could burn a body.
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Like you can burn a piece of wood, you can, it, it's a huge undertaking.
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You have to have tons of fuel, tons of extremely hot fire, and it takes forever.
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You're not gonna successfully burn a body and have it be unidentifiable.
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So, and then we, we tried to burn the body.
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That didn't work.
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Let's put a door on top of
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it.
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Yeah, I've, I've got this door.
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Where did the door come?
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Like, just found a door and they're like, that'll do what?
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And the feet are still poking out the end some fuckery was happening.
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Officers also located fragments of green glass bottle caps and two wooden matchsticks near the remains.
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That's like leaving the bullets there.
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Yeah, well throw the gun in there too.
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How?
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How about whatever you use to amputate this person's extremities?
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What the fuck?
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Portions of clothing were still on the body, including the elastic waistband of some jockey shorts and the upper band of some brown trouser trousers.
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So I'm just saying if you're gonna take the effort to try to burn a body, at least the clothes should be burned.
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That's like not even half-ass effort.
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Yeah.
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This was not well planned and.
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S clearly not executed in any way.
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She like, they just, you come to the conclusion, I'm gonna leave it on the side of the road with a door over it.
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Let's go.
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What an autopsy determined the victim has suffered multiple stab wounds and gunshot injuries.
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Overkill.
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Pathologist said the stab wounds to the abdomen probably did not cause death, and that the gunshots decapitation or a slit throat could have been fatal.
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They're not sure a lot happened.
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It seems just, just the utter ca I'm just picturing the utter chaos of that trying to happen, and they're like either, oh, he is not dead yet.
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Let's do this, or, oh this.
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You know, just like, I'd be pissed.
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I'd be like, I've tried three different ways.
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Mm-hmm.
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Yeah.
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Anyways, but I would not murder anybody, so there's that too.
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Yeah, true.
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But just.
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Sometimes the sheer dim wittedness of the things that we come across are like, what were you thinking?
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You were not thinking?
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No.
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Most of the time they're not thinking based on decomposition and insect activity, which I find fascinating by the, I love
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that stuff.
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Doctors said the body had been dead for several days and had been outside for several days before Discovery.
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Okay.
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This wasn't a freezer case.
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We've seen those.
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Mm-hmm.
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Because of the condition of the Remains Authority said identification would require circumstantial and laboratory evidence.
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Hmm.
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And you have to remember what year we're in,
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right?
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76 was
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it?
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Yeah.
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So we are not, uh, having.
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The forensic team come out and
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No,
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I mean I imagine there was some sort of forensics, but it's not a CSI forensic
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and the science just wasn't,
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it wasn't
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there as good as it is now.
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Like now they have that, I don't know if you wanna call it a camp or whatever where they study bodies and like document exactly what's happening in certain temperatures.
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Yeah, I find that fast.
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I could never do that, but I find it fascinating.
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I've listened to, I think Dan Cummins does one on that.
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Um, it's incredible.
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'cause they're like, what about this humidity?
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What about this Yeah.
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Location.
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just so you can know exactly.
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A timeline.
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'cause that's what,
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what you're supposed to be seeing on those bodies.
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Mm-hmm.
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How long they've been there.
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And when you donate, I'm sorry, I just remembered a TikTok about donating your.
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Um,
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your body to science.
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Yes.
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So, uh, just an offshoot here.
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Somebody was like, I can't remember.
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It was like on a, a big podcast or something, but it was a TikTok that they were doing.
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Maybe it was Joe Rogan anyways, or comedian, but this guy, um, his mom wanted to be donated to science and then to find out that they used her body.
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Um, to find out how explosives work on a pod.
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Yeah.
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And he is like, you think you're doing good, but then you find out your mom's unstrap to a bomb, like.
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Hmm.
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Yeah.
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You probably thought, you know, some medical students are gonna come in or, right,
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right.
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But I, it's for
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science.
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I mean, I'm all about, it's
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for science.
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Well, but just the general consensus, I think, with the public is that you're donating it so te so that, you know, doctors can learn about the body, or nurses can learn about the body, or Yes.
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You can specifically, I believe, request to be like, you know, put out in the wood deposed or, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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But.
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I don't think you're expecting to get
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blown up.
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Yeah,
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probably not.
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Yeah.
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So anyways, maybe there's some fine print or some other things
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you No, that's actually what they said.
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They said read the fine print.
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Yeah,
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you need to read the fine print.
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Okay.
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Got off on a tangent.
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That's
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so sad.
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Within hours of the discovery investigators focused on the missing person.
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Report filed two days earlier.
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Ronald needs had been reported missing before the body was found.
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An authority said no other adult male had been reporting missing in the area during that time.
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Mm-hmm.
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About three hours after the Ada County Sheriff's Office was notified of a body, a Jim County deputy.
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'cause these guys are working hand in hand.
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They're right there.
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Yeah.
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Right.
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A a Jim County deputy encountered Sally Meads driving the couple's motor home on a dirt road near the scene, just trucking along.
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According, uh, to a court affidavit later filed, she told the deputy she had pulled off the highway to stop and was traveling towards Payette.
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She said she stopped to have a coke,
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a cocaine, or a.
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A soda Coke.
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Okay.
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A soda pup.
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So just doing a quick little toot officer.
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Have you seen that one where it's like, yeah, I do.
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I do a little tooting.
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Everyone can have a little toot.
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We have to freaking watch it.
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Okay.
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The deputy said the stop appeared unusual because of the terrain.
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And the proximity to the body recovery site.
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The motor home was later searched by ADA County deputies as part of the investigation.
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Hang on.
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Was there a door missing from the motor home?
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No shit.
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What do you mean?
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I'm, I don't know why you would think I'd be doing anything.
00:11:58.434 --> 00:12:01.945
They're like you, A large door is missing from the motor home.
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I'm not actually sure where the door came from.
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I bet it was probably like found somewhere or.
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So
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that'll do,
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I probably flew off somebody going to the dump or something.
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Mm-hmm.
00:12:11.715 --> 00:12:13.240
I was on the side of the road anyway.
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Perfect.
00:12:15.399 --> 00:12:16.029
Yeah.
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Oh, how handy.
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Invisible.
00:12:18.490 --> 00:12:19.779
So handy for me right now.
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This, this works out well.
00:12:21.159 --> 00:12:21.940
That's crazy.
00:12:23.274 --> 00:12:30.730
I, uh, additional witnesses plays Sally needs in the area on successive days.
00:12:32.259 --> 00:12:39.759
One resident said she encountered the motor home in a ditch the day before the body was discovered.
00:12:39.820 --> 00:12:40.240
Oops.
00:12:41.215 --> 00:12:43.164
She identified the driver as Sally needs.
00:12:43.164 --> 00:12:51.414
Who told her her name was Karen, and she said her and her husband had taken separate vacations.
00:12:52.524 --> 00:12:54.865
Totally normal and not weird at all.
00:12:54.924 --> 00:12:56.034
Everyone's doing that.
00:12:56.274 --> 00:12:58.975
So she got stuck in this ditch, right?
00:13:00.475 --> 00:13:01.705
She's having a hard time.
00:13:02.725 --> 00:13:04.495
The motor home was pulled from the ditch.
00:13:04.554 --> 00:13:06.850
So this, this couple that she met, the husband went and she.
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Said, all right, I'll go get my tractor.
00:13:09.669 --> 00:13:10.809
We'll pull you outta here.
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And Sally needs continued on her way, just trucking along.
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Thanks for the help guys.
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Yeah.
00:13:18.759 --> 00:13:20.500
Me and my husband were on separate vacations.
00:13:20.919 --> 00:13:22.360
I, the person was like, what?
00:13:22.960 --> 00:13:24.340
Like, okay.
00:13:24.340 --> 00:13:24.700
Yeah.
00:13:25.419 --> 00:13:32.259
Another witness testified that Sally needs arrived at her home the day that Ronald turned up missing.
00:13:33.039 --> 00:13:37.899
And said she worried because her husband had attempted to drown himself in the Snake River.
00:13:39.309 --> 00:13:40.330
Nobody's doing that.
00:13:40.330 --> 00:13:40.389
We're
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now, we're just,
00:13:42.039 --> 00:13:42.909
nobody's doing that.
00:13:43.360 --> 00:13:59.529
That witness said, needs stayed overnight and made telephone calls to friends and relatives looking for her husband did she, investigators said that after filing the missing, per missing person report, Sally.
00:14:00.100 --> 00:14:07.299
Needs was unable to direct deputies back to the location where she said the motor home had been parked when her husband disappeared.
00:14:07.360 --> 00:14:08.019
Come on.
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No.
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She told authorities she had not been in the ETT area for a long time.
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Statements that later contrasted with witness sightings near the foothill.
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Do you remember that?
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Nice couple, Karen that pulled you outta the ditch?
00:14:23.440 --> 00:14:24.129
You remember that?
00:14:24.460 --> 00:14:24.909
Yeah.
00:14:25.389 --> 00:14:25.690
Weird.
00:14:25.690 --> 00:14:27.159
People have been seeing me all around.
00:14:28.990 --> 00:14:34.509
so this was in all of this happenings early, you know, in June.
00:14:34.514 --> 00:14:34.644
Mm-hmm.
00:14:36.220 --> 00:14:44.080
On August 27th, a magistrate issued a warrant charging needs with first degree murder and the death of her husband, Ronald.
00:14:44.379 --> 00:14:45.039
They're moving.
00:14:45.250 --> 00:14:47.679
Bail was set at$500,000.
00:14:49.509 --> 00:14:50.889
May as well have been a cajillion back then.
00:14:50.889 --> 00:14:51.370
Right,
00:14:51.414 --> 00:14:51.904
exactly.
00:14:53.049 --> 00:14:56.620
Uh, authorities said they began searching for her after learning.
00:14:56.620 --> 00:15:03.850
She had left Idaho following the investigation into the discovery of the headless armless torso found in June.
00:15:04.059 --> 00:15:04.240
Yeah.
00:15:04.240 --> 00:15:05.470
She's getting outta Dodge.
00:15:05.470 --> 00:15:06.250
She's like, okay.
00:15:06.254 --> 00:15:07.509
She's like, I have a house on wheels.
00:15:07.600 --> 00:15:08.529
I, bye.
00:15:08.595 --> 00:15:09.820
I, I did what?
00:15:09.820 --> 00:15:11.379
I, I, I did my job.
00:15:11.379 --> 00:15:11.740
I'm out.
00:15:11.980 --> 00:15:12.879
I reported him missing.
00:15:12.970 --> 00:15:14.289
Yeah, he's missing.
00:15:14.570 --> 00:15:17.029
hopefully he's not looking for me'cause I'm leaving.
00:15:17.360 --> 00:15:21.299
My, prosecutor said the body had tentatively.
00:15:21.764 --> 00:15:26.924
Been identified as Ronald tentatively
00:15:27.945 --> 00:15:29.865
Yeah, we're, we don't have any dental records.
00:15:29.865 --> 00:15:31.335
We don't have any fingerprints.
00:15:31.335 --> 00:15:33.615
We don't have a face ahead
00:15:36.044 --> 00:15:46.225
On September 8th, acting on a tip, ADA County Sheriff's detectives, arrested needs without incident in the Los Angeles area with assistance from California authorities.
00:15:47.529 --> 00:15:55.120
She was taken into custody and held in a Los Angeles jail while Idaho officials initiated extradition proceedings.
00:15:55.389 --> 00:15:56.919
Founder, founder
00:15:58.600 --> 00:16:05.059
authorities said, that she was 32 years old and formerly of pay at Idaho.
00:16:05.179 --> 00:16:07.730
So she is an Idaho win.
00:16:08.720 --> 00:16:09.679
She be Idahoan
00:16:11.750 --> 00:16:15.590
Needs appeared before a Los Angeles judge and waived extradition.
00:16:16.174 --> 00:16:21.664
On September 11th, she was escorted back to Idaho by law enforcement and flown into Boise.
00:16:22.235 --> 00:16:22.894
Welcome back.
00:16:24.245 --> 00:16:31.504
Deputy Sheriff Judy Axel escorted her through the Boise Air Terminal before she was transported to the ADA County Jail.
00:16:31.625 --> 00:16:38.705
She was booked and held in lieu of a$500,000 bail pending court proceedings on the first degree murder charge.
00:16:38.884 --> 00:16:42.274
So they got a ass.
00:16:42.904 --> 00:16:43.264
Mm-hmm.
00:16:44.225 --> 00:16:44.615
Murder.
00:16:44.764 --> 00:16:50.794
I said, you know what, if you come back with us real quick, I, I mean, your husband is missing from here.
00:16:51.184 --> 00:16:55.804
And we did find a burned body where you were just hanging out, having a coke on the side of the.
00:16:56.240 --> 00:16:58.460
Weird, you know, back dirt road.
00:16:58.940 --> 00:17:01.940
Have you ever been in, have you ever been up in the mountains?
00:17:01.940 --> 00:17:05.869
And you're like, that recreational vehicle should not be up here
00:17:05.930 --> 00:17:06.740
a hundred percent.
00:17:06.740 --> 00:17:06.890
No.
00:17:06.890 --> 00:17:08.660
She was in a place she should not have been.
00:17:08.660 --> 00:17:09.410
That that's what I'm saying.
00:17:09.410 --> 00:17:14.890
You're like, maybe you should have kept your 38 foot, fifth wheel out of the place.
00:17:14.890 --> 00:17:15.759
That really is, that
00:17:15.759 --> 00:17:17.319
has hairpin turns.
00:17:17.349 --> 00:17:17.529
Yeah.
00:17:18.204 --> 00:17:19.555
This is tent camping, bro.
00:17:19.644 --> 00:17:20.125
What do you do?
00:17:20.154 --> 00:17:21.474
There's no hookups here.
00:17:21.535 --> 00:17:23.005
What the fuck?
00:17:23.154 --> 00:17:24.295
You've seen that and you're like,
00:17:24.359 --> 00:17:26.244
like, we don't bring the tour bus here.
00:17:26.305 --> 00:17:27.505
Right, exactly.
00:17:27.505 --> 00:17:29.724
So I, that's what I just kinda envisioned with that.
00:17:29.724 --> 00:17:30.174
I'm feeling that too.
00:17:30.180 --> 00:17:30.369
Like
00:17:30.609 --> 00:17:31.609
whoopsie in a it.
00:17:32.390 --> 00:17:32.809
Whoops.
00:17:33.204 --> 00:17:35.575
And they're like, uh, really?
00:17:35.575 --> 00:17:35.994
What are you, why
00:17:35.994 --> 00:17:36.744
are you here?
00:17:36.805 --> 00:17:43.045
This is kind of like, were you looking for a campground because this looks like campground material here.
00:17:43.075 --> 00:17:45.894
And listen, no GPSI could have done it for sure.
00:17:47.214 --> 00:17:51.220
Yeah, but I mean, at some point, have you ever been like, maybe we shouldn't go here?
00:17:51.339 --> 00:17:56.559
Have you ever been like up going camping or hiking and you're gonna get off on her?
00:17:56.619 --> 00:17:56.920
You're like,
00:17:57.670 --> 00:17:57.940
looks
00:17:57.940 --> 00:17:58.119
a little
00:17:58.119 --> 00:17:58.960
dicey
00:17:59.019 --> 00:17:59.529
maybe.
00:17:59.650 --> 00:18:01.150
Maybe we shouldn't take this road.
00:18:01.420 --> 00:18:01.904
Yeah, yeah.
00:18:02.200 --> 00:18:02.410
Okay.
00:18:02.470 --> 00:18:03.640
I think she just kept going.
00:18:03.700 --> 00:18:05.019
I mean, she was rolling with it,
00:18:05.529 --> 00:18:06.250
so she got stuck
00:18:06.250 --> 00:18:06.490
in the ditch.
00:18:06.490 --> 00:18:12.400
She's all hopped up on a Coke and driving that thing like a bat outta hell, probably.
00:18:12.460 --> 00:18:12.549
And
00:18:13.269 --> 00:18:14.740
Jesus, I just picture it
00:18:14.740 --> 00:18:15.160
in my head.
00:18:15.204 --> 00:18:17.380
I'm, I'm picturing like the breaking bad.
00:18:17.440 --> 00:18:17.650
Yeah.
00:18:18.279 --> 00:18:21.369
Like just broken down on a dirt road.
00:18:26.380 --> 00:18:26.740
Wonderful.
00:18:29.769 --> 00:18:32.349
I'm like, are you sure that won't be in your way?
00:18:32.355 --> 00:18:32.704
No, not at all.
00:18:38.690 --> 00:18:40.365
All these cool decorations, guys.
00:18:44.265 --> 00:18:44.505
Fucking
00:18:44.505 --> 00:18:45.164
up the set
00:18:46.605 --> 00:18:46.964
mind.
00:18:46.964 --> 00:18:48.464
The set stuff.
00:18:48.464 --> 00:18:48.855
Shit.
00:18:48.855 --> 00:18:49.815
Show biz, baby.
00:18:50.625 --> 00:18:51.075
Show biz.
00:18:51.765 --> 00:18:54.944
on September 14th, needs was arraigned in Ada County.
00:18:55.394 --> 00:18:57.545
Magistrate Judge George D.
00:18:57.545 --> 00:19:02.025
Carey set a date for a preliminary hearing and ordered that she remain in custody.
00:19:02.325 --> 00:19:02.805
Good job.
00:19:03.075 --> 00:19:03.434
Yeah.
00:19:04.095 --> 00:19:04.454
Good job.
00:19:05.174 --> 00:19:11.204
Uh, court records identified the victim as Ronald Deans her husband of about one month.
00:19:12.674 --> 00:19:13.815
Oh no.
00:19:15.974 --> 00:19:16.694
Wow.
00:19:16.724 --> 00:19:16.785
Yeah.
00:19:17.414 --> 00:19:18.494
Newlyweds.
00:19:18.765 --> 00:19:18.825
Yeah.
00:19:19.365 --> 00:19:20.355
Was this their honeymoon?
00:19:21.869 --> 00:19:22.559
Damn
00:19:23.730 --> 00:19:28.140
a scheduled preliminary hearing later that week was postponed after needs requested.
00:19:28.410 --> 00:19:33.720
Court appointed counsel so, Carrie Magistrate.
00:19:33.720 --> 00:19:41.190
Carrie assigned a public defender firm of Matthews, Wilson and Lee to represent her after a California law firm.
00:19:41.430 --> 00:19:46.259
Needs said, would appear on her behalf, did not attend, so she's thinking she has an attorney.
00:19:46.875 --> 00:19:47.295
Yeah.
00:19:47.295 --> 00:19:48.525
Um, my, um,
00:19:48.525 --> 00:19:49.394
talk to my lawyer.
00:19:50.174 --> 00:19:51.884
They're from California.
00:19:52.095 --> 00:19:53.565
They said we don't know her.
00:19:53.744 --> 00:19:53.954
Yeah.
00:19:54.164 --> 00:19:56.805
And they're like, uh, we're not coming.
00:19:57.434 --> 00:20:01.065
I mean, it's, attorneys have to be like, they're very state specific.
00:20:01.065 --> 00:20:01.154
Mm-hmm.
00:20:01.394 --> 00:20:03.434
There's different laws in different states.
00:20:04.500 --> 00:20:08.640
And look, there are some attorneys that can be practicing in multiple states, but it's prepared.
00:20:08.640 --> 00:20:09.089
They know.
00:20:09.119 --> 00:20:09.359
Yeah.
00:20:09.569 --> 00:20:14.339
But, but you can't just be like, Hey, I got, my cousin is an attorney in Minnesota.
00:20:14.339 --> 00:20:15.119
He's coming.
00:20:15.180 --> 00:20:15.569
No,
00:20:15.720 --> 00:20:16.559
he's not coming.
00:20:16.680 --> 00:20:16.890
Yeah.
00:20:16.890 --> 00:20:18.630
You have to be registered with a bar in that state.
00:20:18.630 --> 00:20:19.710
I believe that's how that works.
00:20:19.710 --> 00:20:19.980
So, yeah.
00:20:20.309 --> 00:20:27.325
Anyway, she thought she had her badass California, attorney coming up and he's like, no.
00:20:28.315 --> 00:20:29.724
Yeah, absolutely not doing that.
00:20:30.055 --> 00:20:35.234
And I'm just telling you, I don't think that they, Needs had any significant amount
00:20:35.444 --> 00:20:35.954
of,
00:20:36.005 --> 00:20:36.454
money
00:20:36.454 --> 00:20:37.325
to pay for
00:20:37.625 --> 00:20:38.644
that attorney lawyer.
00:20:38.644 --> 00:20:39.035
Yeah.
00:20:43.865 --> 00:20:48.875
at the request of the defense, Carrie ordered the courtroom cleared and rescheduled the hearing.
00:20:49.625 --> 00:21:02.194
During the closed preliminary proceedings, prosecutors outlined evidence gathered during the investigation, including those witness sightings, placing needs, and the couple's motor home near the area where the torso was found.
00:21:02.855 --> 00:21:05.075
It was more than just the torso, the legs were attached.
00:21:05.765 --> 00:21:05.855
Mm-hmm.
00:21:06.095 --> 00:21:06.184
But.
00:21:07.474 --> 00:21:20.075
Ada County prosecutor David Leroy, said testimony included accounts from law enforcement officers and civilians who described encounters with needs in the foothills before and after the body was discovered.
00:21:20.525 --> 00:21:20.704
Yeah.
00:21:20.704 --> 00:21:21.694
She's been all over the place.
00:21:21.694 --> 00:21:22.144
Out here.
00:21:22.474 --> 00:21:23.974
She's very little busy.
00:21:24.515 --> 00:21:24.845
Mm-hmm.
00:21:25.474 --> 00:21:25.505
Mm.
00:21:25.565 --> 00:21:31.470
Jim County Deputy Ron Roman testified that he encountered needs near the scene shortly after the torso was found.
00:21:32.285 --> 00:21:40.174
Prosecutors also presented testimony about an earlier altercation between the couple involving knives earlier in June.
00:21:40.714 --> 00:21:42.305
What is happening over there?
00:21:43.805 --> 00:21:53.295
Defense attorney Alyssa Matthews, challenged the state evidence focusing on the tentative nature of the body's identification and the absence of the head and arm.
00:21:54.710 --> 00:22:03.200
Matthews argued that conflicting testimony and the lack of conclusive identification failed to establish probable cause.
00:22:04.640 --> 00:22:06.079
Especially back then.
00:22:06.500 --> 00:22:09.650
They're like, it could be anybody's body when it really can't.
00:22:10.009 --> 00:22:11.119
Who else is missing?
00:22:11.119 --> 00:22:11.630
You know?
00:22:12.109 --> 00:22:16.309
But when you don't have that fingerprint or dental or,
00:22:17.089 --> 00:22:17.210
yeah.
00:22:17.210 --> 00:22:19.099
He's like, I don't even know why we're here.
00:22:19.579 --> 00:22:19.880
Yeah.
00:22:20.210 --> 00:22:21.805
Do we even know that that is Ronald Dean?
00:22:22.684 --> 00:22:23.795
Yeah, it could be anyone's body.
00:22:26.555 --> 00:22:38.325
On September 25th, Carrie ruled that there was probable cause to hold needs on trial, for a charge of first degree murder, but agreed to hear additional defense evidence before issuing a final order.
00:22:38.444 --> 00:22:39.644
So he is like, all right, gimme what you got.
00:22:39.644 --> 00:22:39.734
Mm-hmm.
00:22:39.974 --> 00:22:41.444
I'll listen a little more.
00:22:42.224 --> 00:22:46.545
He reduced bail from 500,000 to$100,000.
00:22:47.384 --> 00:22:50.924
Prosecutors said the missing body parts had never been recovered.
00:22:51.825 --> 00:22:53.325
I cannot believe that, by the way.
00:22:53.835 --> 00:22:54.045
Right.
00:22:54.615 --> 00:22:59.414
And that identification relied on circumstantial and laboratory evidence.
00:22:59.954 --> 00:23:03.224
The defense continued to dispute the identity of the remains.
00:23:03.674 --> 00:23:05.474
We don't, we can't know who it is, so
00:23:05.474 --> 00:23:07.184
I will say the defense is defensive.
00:23:07.244 --> 00:23:07.605
Mm-hmm.
00:23:09.329 --> 00:23:13.410
On September 30th, Carrie ruled that needs would stand trial.
00:23:13.559 --> 00:23:16.289
He was like, no, we're going to trial.
00:23:17.039 --> 00:23:22.410
He said The additional defense testimony did not alter his earlier finding of probable cause.
00:23:23.069 --> 00:23:25.164
The magistrate denied a further reduction in bail.
00:23:26.924 --> 00:23:28.694
I already went from 500 to 100.
00:23:28.694 --> 00:23:29.115
Yeah.
00:23:29.204 --> 00:23:30.525
What else do you want me to do here?
00:23:31.224 --> 00:23:36.025
needs remained in the ADA County Jail as the case was set to proceed in district court.
00:23:37.835 --> 00:23:39.065
on October 16th.
00:23:39.065 --> 00:23:43.595
Needs entered a plea of not guilty to the charge of that first degree murder.
00:23:44.644 --> 00:23:49.025
Her attorney filed motions seeking the dismissal of the charge, again,
00:23:49.085 --> 00:23:49.865
par for the course,
00:23:49.865 --> 00:23:52.085
and challenging the sufficiency of the evidence.
00:23:53.855 --> 00:23:54.575
They gotta do it.
00:23:55.414 --> 00:24:05.355
During the hearing, judge Che noticed that the constitutionality of Idaho's mandatory death penalty for first degree murder was in question.
00:24:05.355 --> 00:24:08.234
Following a recent ruling by the US Supreme Court.
00:24:08.775 --> 00:24:10.305
We have discussed this mm-hmm.
00:24:10.545 --> 00:24:18.075
In many needs remained in custody, pending further hearings as the case moved towards trial.
00:24:20.025 --> 00:24:32.535
After needs entered her not guilty plea, her defense immediately sought again, the dismissal of the charge, arguing that the evidence presented failed to establish probable cause that she committed the crime.
00:24:34.785 --> 00:24:35.505
Okay.
00:24:35.505 --> 00:24:42.795
I mean, it's very just suspicious that if your husband's missing, you're just going on along back to California and
00:24:42.880 --> 00:24:43.170
yeah.
00:24:46.394 --> 00:24:53.535
Fourth District Judge Ray Deci scheduled hearings on the motions while needs remained in custody on that a hundred thousand dollars bail.
00:24:55.305 --> 00:24:59.684
At a hearing later in October, Matthews also asked the court to reduce bail.
00:24:59.684 --> 00:25:04.845
Again, arguing that the amount was unreasonable and that needs was not a flight risk.
00:25:06.224 --> 00:25:08.835
He told the court that if bail were lowered between.
00:25:09.674 --> 00:25:14.384
10 to$20,000 a California relative could post bond for her release.
00:25:14.954 --> 00:25:16.964
I don't think that's how any of that works.
00:25:17.085 --> 00:25:23.325
Um, well, and just so people know, like here, different states are different about bonds.
00:25:23.355 --> 00:25:23.444
Mm-hmm.
00:25:23.684 --> 00:25:30.285
So a hundred thousand dollars bond, you would need to put up 10% of that to a bondsman.
00:25:30.285 --> 00:25:30.375
Right.
00:25:30.375 --> 00:25:31.694
So$10,000.
00:25:32.984 --> 00:25:33.345
So,
00:25:33.585 --> 00:25:35.474
so now we're asking to get her out for a thousand
00:25:35.474 --> 00:25:35.954
bucks.
00:25:35.954 --> 00:25:35.974
Thousand bucks.
00:25:35.984 --> 00:25:36.375
Yeah.
00:25:37.529 --> 00:25:43.750
You know, if you guys have like a Dollar Tree special for these, bonds, we could probably roll with that.
00:25:43.750 --> 00:25:54.250
That's why I'm like, that's not how any of the, and listen, we could go on and on about the cash bail system and I don't really agree with it, but it just now not how things are done.
00:25:54.460 --> 00:25:54.670
So
00:25:54.670 --> 00:25:54.730
I
00:25:54.789 --> 00:25:55.990
know, but this is fucking murder.
00:25:56.319 --> 00:25:57.339
A thousand bucks.
00:25:57.460 --> 00:25:57.789
Yeah.
00:25:58.299 --> 00:25:59.230
Get out of town.
00:26:01.180 --> 00:26:10.900
Matthew said the case against needs was not what it had appeared to be initially, and that some evidence gathered earlier in the investigation had not held up under laboratory testing.
00:26:11.740 --> 00:26:19.630
He said needs has cooperated with authorities after her husband was reported missing and was arrested peacefully in California.
00:26:20.500 --> 00:26:22.720
Okay, he's trying to get her out on bond.
00:26:26.575 --> 00:26:36.894
ADA county prosecutor Leroy opposed the request arguing that the nature of the crime and needs background justified keeping bail high.
00:26:38.095 --> 00:26:48.025
Leroy told the court that needs had a prior conviction for involuntary manslaughter in California and said, bail should remain at a hundred thousand dollars.
00:26:48.115 --> 00:26:50.634
Or here's an idea, let's increase it.
00:26:50.875 --> 00:26:52.255
Yeah, let's do even more.
00:26:52.255 --> 00:26:55.434
So she was convicted of involuntary manslaughter.
00:26:55.440 --> 00:26:55.569
Mm-hmm.
00:26:56.815 --> 00:26:58.345
Doesn't look good.
00:26:59.694 --> 00:27:01.855
And if you don't think, I'm not gonna tell you that story.
00:27:01.884 --> 00:27:02.454
Oh, I know you have not
00:27:02.454 --> 00:27:03.444
listened to our podcast
00:27:03.444 --> 00:27:03.595
before.
00:27:03.769 --> 00:27:05.724
I'm just, I'm just patiently waiting for it.
00:27:06.055 --> 00:27:06.805
Absolutely.
00:27:07.615 --> 00:27:20.065
During the same hearing, dichi said he could not rule on either the bail reduction request or the motion to dismiss until he had reviewed the transcript of the pulmonary hearing, which had not yet been completed.
00:27:20.515 --> 00:27:34.525
He also indicated that he might rule that if convicted needs could receive no more than a life sentence, despite being charged with first degree murder because of the recent court decisions calling mandatory death penalties into question.
00:27:34.525 --> 00:27:35.394
And they were
00:27:35.394 --> 00:27:35.545
mm-hmm.
00:27:35.785 --> 00:27:35.875
They
00:27:35.875 --> 00:27:37.375
were all wrong.
00:27:37.375 --> 00:27:38.994
We cannot make the problem any worse.
00:27:38.994 --> 00:27:39.234
Yeah.
00:27:39.234 --> 00:27:41.119
So let's just stick with life.
00:27:41.575 --> 00:27:42.295
Okay.
00:27:45.744 --> 00:28:06.505
At a subsequent hearing, Matthews expanded on his request for reduced bail portraying needs as a woman who had lived a law abiding life for several years, despite a troubled past, he told the court that needs had been beaten by her stepfather, placed in a youth home as a child, and later struggled with alcohol and
00:28:07.075 --> 00:28:07.255
drugs.
00:28:09.384 --> 00:28:11.634
Matthews outlined her criminal history.
00:28:13.869 --> 00:28:17.019
Including her earlier manslaughter conviction in California.
00:28:17.200 --> 00:28:22.180
Her prison escape, her recapture and her eventual discharge without parole.
00:28:23.380 --> 00:28:37.779
He said the California Parole Board had granted that discharge because of her conduct during several years when she lived as an escapee, and that the board believed she had learned from her experiences and was living a decent life.
00:28:38.799 --> 00:28:40.180
But she's not a flight risk.
00:28:40.180 --> 00:28:40.690
Danny.
00:28:42.789 --> 00:28:46.839
She's plotting she, she's like, you try to get me out on some bail.
00:28:47.109 --> 00:28:49.779
I'm gonna be seen if I can tunnel through these walls.
00:28:51.220 --> 00:28:52.359
We'll see who gets there first.
00:28:53.259 --> 00:28:59.980
She lived for years without being recaptured, and they just said, you know what?
00:29:00.865 --> 00:29:01.585
All right.
00:29:03.085 --> 00:29:06.565
You go on and we, we feel it's punishment enough.
00:29:06.595 --> 00:29:08.845
Usually they wanna lay the hammer on you.
00:29:08.845 --> 00:29:12.654
If you escape, they're like, you're avoiding your consequences.
00:29:13.434 --> 00:29:15.325
Was she being Mother Teresa while she was out?
00:29:15.325 --> 00:29:18.204
I know this is all gonna be answered, but I'm just flabbergasted.
00:29:22.599 --> 00:29:30.400
Leroy again objected saying the seriousness of the charge and needs prior escape history warranted, continued detention.
00:29:30.460 --> 00:29:33.130
He's like, yeah, I'm glad you brought that up because that's not good.
00:29:33.430 --> 00:29:37.930
He argued that needs posed a risk and said the bail should not be reduced.
00:29:40.775 --> 00:29:41.194
Agreed.
00:29:54.163 --> 00:29:57.943
So do you wanna hear about this?
00:29:58.273 --> 00:29:59.023
I've gotta know.
00:29:59.054 --> 00:30:00.463
Previous conviction,
00:30:00.463 --> 00:30:01.423
what were you up to?
00:30:01.513 --> 00:30:01.784
Ms.
00:30:01.784 --> 00:30:02.773
Sally O'Malley.
00:30:04.903 --> 00:30:16.423
On the night of August 23rd, 1964, Harry McGuire, a 53-year-old Los Angeles bar owner, closed his bar and went upstairs to his apartment behind the business.
00:30:16.663 --> 00:30:16.693
Ooh.
00:30:17.594 --> 00:30:20.743
And he took a woman with him as one does.
00:30:22.108 --> 00:30:28.048
Later that night, McGuire was found lying on the floor of the apartment shot in the abdomen.
00:30:29.098 --> 00:30:35.999
He was taken by ambulance to General Hospital while conscious McGuire spoke with ambulance attendants and police.
00:30:35.999 --> 00:30:36.028
He
00:30:36.659 --> 00:30:37.618
said, listen up.
00:30:38.759 --> 00:30:42.358
McGuire said he had gone into the bathroom after entering the apartment.
00:30:42.959 --> 00:30:48.179
He said that when he came out, the woman was holding his revolver, not good.
00:30:49.048 --> 00:30:52.709
McGuire said she shot him, took his car and left him there.
00:30:55.709 --> 00:30:56.308
Yikes.
00:30:56.459 --> 00:31:05.969
McGuire remained hospitalized for more than two weeks, and on September 11th, 1964, he died at General Hospital from complications of the gunshot wound
00:31:07.019 --> 00:31:11.519
and being shot in the stomach, the abdomen, and living two weeks.
00:31:11.519 --> 00:31:13.499
That's a painful way to die I bet.
00:31:13.679 --> 00:31:14.038
So.
00:31:15.989 --> 00:31:21.568
I fully, and this is probably just very naive of me, but I fully expected him to recover.
00:31:21.598 --> 00:31:21.659
Me
00:31:21.659 --> 00:31:22.078
too.
00:31:22.288 --> 00:31:23.368
If he's talking.
00:31:23.638 --> 00:31:31.378
And it wasn't, uh, I know the stomach has a lot of parts, but you know, if somebody gets shot in the heart, the head
00:31:31.499 --> 00:31:31.798
Yeah.
00:31:31.979 --> 00:31:32.374
You're like, mm,
00:31:33.689 --> 00:31:34.288
not good.
00:31:34.528 --> 00:31:35.729
Not gonna recover.
00:31:35.759 --> 00:31:38.638
Most likely not getting a shot in the stomach.
00:31:38.638 --> 00:31:40.409
I, I'm still kind of hopeful.
00:31:40.979 --> 00:31:41.068
Mm-hmm.
00:31:41.398 --> 00:31:41.459
For
00:31:41.459 --> 00:31:41.469
sure.
00:31:41.469 --> 00:31:41.699
For recovery
00:31:42.298 --> 00:31:42.449
there.
00:31:42.449 --> 00:31:44.009
There's hope, there's more hope there for sure.
00:31:44.669 --> 00:31:52.588
But, you know, medicine also wasn't what it is today too, so I'm sure it wasn't a pleasant death and that sucks.
00:31:54.179 --> 00:32:01.618
Police identified the woman as Sally, Joanne Norris, age 20, a former Idaho resident living in California.
00:32:03.449 --> 00:32:08.308
After her arrest, Norris gave a different account of what happened inside the apartment.
00:32:08.459 --> 00:32:08.578
Oh
00:32:08.578 --> 00:32:08.999
really?
00:32:09.388 --> 00:32:10.048
Of course she did.
00:32:11.189 --> 00:32:13.979
Norris told police that she and Maguire had been drinking.
00:32:14.804 --> 00:32:18.403
And a side note, totally forgot.
00:32:19.183 --> 00:32:21.913
Sally needs is Sally Norris.
00:32:21.943 --> 00:32:22.213
Right.
00:32:22.574 --> 00:32:27.493
So it's one and same, but you know, us, us women go be changing last names.
00:32:27.884 --> 00:32:28.124
Mm-hmm.
00:32:28.364 --> 00:32:28.413
Every once in a while.
00:32:28.413 --> 00:32:28.509
Mm-hmm.
00:32:28.753 --> 00:32:30.433
So she was Norris back in the day,
00:32:30.493 --> 00:32:32.384
back in the day she was a Norris.
00:32:34.183 --> 00:32:46.634
So she said that they had been drinking and she said, uh, that McGuire thought he heard someone outside and became frightened, nor said McGuire, loaded his revolver and pointed it at her.
00:32:47.503 --> 00:32:52.993
She said she persuaded him to put the gun down and then she picked it up.
00:32:54.044 --> 00:32:57.673
She picked up the revolver and McGuire tried to take it away from her.
00:32:57.733 --> 00:32:59.773
And the gun discharged during the struggle.
00:33:00.374 --> 00:33:02.443
She denied intentionally shooting him.
00:33:04.064 --> 00:33:07.094
And that just doesn't seem like a very likely story to me.
00:33:07.273 --> 00:33:07.903
I feel like.
00:33:08.969 --> 00:33:14.249
There's a million other more likely stories that one could say of like, I didn't wanna go up there.
00:33:14.249 --> 00:33:16.469
He was holding me against my will,
00:33:16.618 --> 00:33:19.229
asking me to do things that I didn't want to do.
00:33:19.318 --> 00:33:19.499
Mm-hmm.
00:33:19.739 --> 00:33:19.828
And
00:33:19.919 --> 00:33:21.419
those kind of situations.
00:33:21.808 --> 00:33:27.118
No, uh, I picked up the gun because he set it down.
00:33:28.138 --> 00:33:28.588
Yeah.
00:33:28.588 --> 00:33:30.509
It just, it still doesn't track.
00:33:30.568 --> 00:33:36.269
Like she's got, she's got a different story, but
00:33:37.078 --> 00:33:38.038
a lot of different
00:33:38.278 --> 00:33:38.489
mm-hmm.
00:33:39.239 --> 00:33:40.259
You wanna know what the police said?
00:33:40.318 --> 00:33:41.159
What'd they say?
00:33:41.848 --> 00:33:48.538
Police said Norris had gone to the apartment with a male companion and that robbery had been discussed.
00:33:48.868 --> 00:33:49.108
Oh.
00:33:49.108 --> 00:33:50.459
So there's a third party here.
00:33:50.939 --> 00:33:54.239
A neighbor reported seeing the shadow of a man on the veranda that night.
00:33:54.868 --> 00:34:03.298
So McGuire was probably right in the fact that he thought that she, someone's
00:34:03.479 --> 00:34:03.868
outside.
00:34:03.898 --> 00:34:04.229
Yeah.
00:34:04.229 --> 00:34:05.739
Had come there to trap him and rob him.
00:34:07.003 --> 00:34:13.873
With a male companion outside Norris was charged with first degree murder.
00:34:15.103 --> 00:34:19.543
And I do just wanna point out, you know, she's 20, he's 53.
00:34:20.233 --> 00:34:21.313
Not unheard of.
00:34:21.313 --> 00:34:21.373
No.
00:34:21.554 --> 00:34:21.643
You
00:34:21.643 --> 00:34:24.733
know, someone, bar owner, maybe a big personality.
00:34:24.733 --> 00:34:25.213
Sure.
00:34:25.813 --> 00:34:26.264
But,
00:34:27.043 --> 00:34:28.753
and she was also super hot.
00:34:30.793 --> 00:34:34.483
She was in the papers, uh, when all this was going down.
00:34:34.483 --> 00:34:37.963
It was like, model this and look her that.
00:34:38.293 --> 00:34:40.063
And, uh, she was very pretty.
00:34:40.603 --> 00:34:41.143
Um,
00:34:41.173 --> 00:34:43.153
and you see that type of shit on tiktoks now too.
00:34:43.184 --> 00:34:43.244
Yeah.
00:34:43.244 --> 00:34:49.813
Like the, some of these girls in their mugshot look like it's a literal photo for their portfolio.
00:34:50.114 --> 00:34:50.353
Yeah.
00:34:50.509 --> 00:34:56.443
I'm like, sis, I'm sorry for whatever you're going through, but you know what, you could submit this to a modeling.
00:34:56.443 --> 00:34:57.733
Remember the hot felon?
00:34:57.974 --> 00:34:58.454
Oh yes.
00:34:58.543 --> 00:34:58.634
Like,
00:35:00.103 --> 00:35:00.974
it's just crazy.
00:35:00.974 --> 00:35:02.684
'cause I know that that wouldn't be me.
00:35:03.074 --> 00:35:05.204
It would not be me, but oh my God.
00:35:05.893 --> 00:35:06.313
P girls mugshot.
00:35:06.824 --> 00:35:11.083
We should, do we need to go to the penitentiary this summer and do the mugshots out there?
00:35:11.083 --> 00:35:11.148
We do.
00:35:11.684 --> 00:35:12.673
We absolutely do.
00:35:12.733 --> 00:35:17.623
And go visit some of the, um, graystones of some of the old timey ones we've done.
00:35:17.623 --> 00:35:18.074
Right?
00:35:18.079 --> 00:35:19.309
Oh, that's a great idea.
00:35:19.768 --> 00:35:20.563
We could do a field
00:35:20.563 --> 00:35:21.193
trip.
00:35:21.344 --> 00:35:21.673
Yeah.
00:35:21.673 --> 00:35:22.963
Maybe we'll take you guys along.
00:35:25.304 --> 00:35:37.753
So she was arrested and charged with first degree murder and the case moved through Los Angeles Superior Court in 1965, nor pled guilty to involuntary manslaughter.
00:35:38.114 --> 00:35:43.393
She was sentenced to a term of up to 10 years and committed to the California Institution for women.
00:35:44.204 --> 00:35:46.003
Probably a good choice on her part.
00:35:46.034 --> 00:35:46.273
Yeah.
00:35:46.273 --> 00:35:48.344
Plea, plea deal.
00:35:48.643 --> 00:35:51.043
Without this having to go to a jury
00:35:51.344 --> 00:35:51.943
10 years.
00:35:51.943 --> 00:35:53.594
She's only 20 something.
00:35:53.594 --> 00:35:54.704
Probably get out on five.
00:35:54.704 --> 00:35:55.514
Good behavior.
00:35:55.603 --> 00:35:55.813
Yeah.
00:35:56.054 --> 00:35:56.534
So.
00:35:57.224 --> 00:35:58.213
Probably a good choice.
00:35:58.273 --> 00:35:58.364
Mm-hmm.
00:35:58.753 --> 00:36:00.554
Uh, sorry for the McGuire family.
00:36:00.704 --> 00:36:01.123
Yeah.
00:36:01.153 --> 00:36:01.934
Sucks for them.
00:36:01.994 --> 00:36:02.114
Mm-hmm.
00:36:03.253 --> 00:36:10.094
On January 4th, 1968, Norris escaped while being transported to a medical appointment.
00:36:10.213 --> 00:36:11.264
Naughty girl.
00:36:11.324 --> 00:36:13.304
Lemme just tell you what these medical appointments were,
00:36:14.353 --> 00:36:14.443
what
00:36:14.684 --> 00:36:21.224
she was like volunteering for these, uh, different kind of experiments,
00:36:21.434 --> 00:36:22.364
like trials.
00:36:22.393 --> 00:36:22.664
Yeah.
00:36:22.664 --> 00:36:22.693
Oh.
00:36:24.014 --> 00:36:24.463
So
00:36:24.583 --> 00:36:25.273
I think it's crazy.
00:36:25.273 --> 00:36:32.954
That was even allowed, like if you want a little vacate from the, because who wouldn't, who wouldn't want like, get a change of scenery?
00:36:33.373 --> 00:36:34.213
A field trip.
00:36:34.784 --> 00:36:36.463
They probably fed her lunch.
00:36:36.974 --> 00:36:37.063
Mm-hmm.
00:36:37.304 --> 00:36:42.103
Something better than the prison food trash she was getting.
00:36:42.103 --> 00:36:45.708
And she's like, look, I go there, they have, they have real sandwiches.
00:36:45.708 --> 00:36:46.063
They don't inject me
00:36:46.063 --> 00:36:46.784
with something.
00:36:47.143 --> 00:36:47.414
I get
00:36:47.414 --> 00:36:49.333
a sandwich in a what I care and a Coke.
00:36:49.393 --> 00:36:49.903
Thank you.
00:36:50.474 --> 00:36:51.103
She'll be, does like
00:36:51.103 --> 00:36:52.123
her Coca-Cola?
00:36:52.153 --> 00:36:53.773
She, she does.
00:36:54.764 --> 00:36:55.273
Um.
00:36:56.864 --> 00:37:06.494
So this poor fucking nurse, she pulled a knife on the registered nurse driving her like this was personal service.
00:37:06.673 --> 00:37:08.893
She wasn't taking a bus or, you know,
00:37:08.893 --> 00:37:11.773
and there wasn't a guard there, there weren't, this is how different it was.
00:37:11.833 --> 00:37:12.673
They're like, sure.
00:37:12.764 --> 00:37:17.954
She wasn't in like some prison bus with like 20 other women, you know, with a bunch of guards.
00:37:17.954 --> 00:37:20.623
No, the nurse swung by the prison and picked her up.
00:37:21.403 --> 00:37:31.514
Um, so she pulled the knife on, the registered nurse forced the nurse from the car, I wanna know where she got the knife and fled in the state vehicle.
00:37:31.724 --> 00:37:34.724
She said, Kay thinks honey, bye.
00:37:34.784 --> 00:37:36.043
Thanks for the ride.
00:37:36.074 --> 00:37:37.543
Bye bitch.
00:37:38.114 --> 00:37:43.873
Uh, but fortunately the nurse wasn't injured, which is good, but also very traumatic.
00:37:43.873 --> 00:37:45.614
She's just trying to do her job.
00:37:46.603 --> 00:37:47.384
She goes back to work.
00:37:47.384 --> 00:37:49.574
She's like, look, I don't
00:37:49.574 --> 00:37:51.523
wanna, I'll be doing this transport thing anymore.
00:37:51.523 --> 00:37:52.034
I'm not.
00:37:52.454 --> 00:37:54.014
I'm not built for this.
00:37:54.554 --> 00:37:54.793
Yeah.
00:37:54.884 --> 00:37:57.974
I'll, I'll be nursing not taxing inmates.
00:37:57.974 --> 00:37:58.333
Yeah.
00:37:58.364 --> 00:37:58.634
Thank you.
00:37:58.739 --> 00:37:59.139
Please.
00:37:59.414 --> 00:37:59.653
Yeah.
00:38:01.034 --> 00:38:03.224
Uh, Norris was captured and returned to custody.
00:38:03.974 --> 00:38:14.324
She pled guilty to robbery for taking the vehicle she's gonna pleading and a judge ordered the sentence to be served consecutively to her manslaughter term.
00:38:15.014 --> 00:38:18.463
Just get a little bit more time well deserved.
00:38:18.463 --> 00:38:21.494
You can't be like the violent nature of it
00:38:22.514 --> 00:38:23.684
not helping your case,
00:38:23.684 --> 00:38:24.014
honey.
00:38:25.153 --> 00:38:27.403
So, four years later, in June of 71
00:38:27.494 --> 00:38:27.673
mm-hmm.
00:38:28.393 --> 00:38:34.963
Norris was on a temporary furlough from the California Institution for women, and they'd be doing this.
00:38:34.963 --> 00:38:45.074
We, we remember Creech and how he was remanded to a, like, highly secure psych ward and they're like.
00:38:46.184 --> 00:38:47.893
But yeah, you get your weekend pass.
00:38:47.983 --> 00:38:48.224
And then
00:38:48.224 --> 00:38:49.543
he went to California and fucking
00:38:49.543 --> 00:38:53.054
murdered somebody out outside of state lines and was backed by curfew.
00:38:53.594 --> 00:38:53.983
No, he
00:38:53.983 --> 00:38:54.764
was, oh, he was late.
00:38:54.824 --> 00:38:58.543
He was late, but he called and he called and let him know he was gonna be late return.
00:38:58.543 --> 00:38:58.634
And
00:38:58.634 --> 00:38:59.773
they were like, it happened.
00:38:59.773 --> 00:38:59.923
That's
00:39:00.134 --> 00:39:00.224
okay.
00:39:00.224 --> 00:39:01.724
Life happens bud.
00:39:03.704 --> 00:39:04.963
Work life balance,
00:39:06.673 --> 00:39:09.943
psych ward, murder spree, balance.
00:39:11.023 --> 00:39:14.204
We gotta gotta advocate for yourselves people.
00:39:15.224 --> 00:39:15.554
Oh my God.
00:39:16.514 --> 00:39:24.373
So while out on furlough, she just didn't return and was listed as an escapee.
00:39:26.114 --> 00:39:27.824
So this is what happened.
00:39:28.063 --> 00:39:30.583
I She overstayed her furlough.
00:39:30.853 --> 00:39:31.364
Right.
00:39:31.634 --> 00:39:32.474
And we see that.
00:39:33.313 --> 00:39:41.474
Um, but she did later contact the authorities and said, all right, come get me.
00:39:41.474 --> 00:39:42.373
And they're like, no.
00:39:43.213 --> 00:39:44.143
They literally is like.
00:39:45.119 --> 00:39:46.438
You gotta return on your own.
00:39:47.039 --> 00:39:49.378
Yeah, go and get back to the station or something.
00:39:49.978 --> 00:39:51.148
We're not coming to get you.
00:39:52.858 --> 00:39:53.998
And she said, you know what?
00:39:55.108 --> 00:39:55.798
Fuck it.
00:39:55.798 --> 00:39:55.949
Fuck it.
00:39:56.909 --> 00:39:59.068
She remained at large for more than four years.
00:40:01.768 --> 00:40:03.389
'cause somebody wouldn't give her a little ride.
00:40:04.318 --> 00:40:06.028
That would never happen nowadays.
00:40:06.239 --> 00:40:06.659
Oh
00:40:06.748 --> 00:40:06.838
no.
00:40:06.838 --> 00:40:07.679
It would be on the news.
00:40:07.708 --> 00:40:10.829
They'd have the SWAT team showing up to collect you.
00:40:10.918 --> 00:40:11.458
Oh, fuck yeah.
00:40:13.469 --> 00:40:25.048
On August 17th, 1974, police and Nisa Idaho arrested a woman working as a secretary under the name Sally Stone.
00:40:25.739 --> 00:40:26.188
Oh.
00:40:26.878 --> 00:40:29.009
Sally Stone got a ring to it.
00:40:29.009 --> 00:40:37.559
Little s authorities identified her as Norris, who was wanted in California for escape or just not coming back.
00:40:38.909 --> 00:40:39.389
Look.
00:40:40.003 --> 00:40:41.623
Not coming back is one thing.
00:40:41.623 --> 00:40:43.603
Pulling a, pulling a knife on a nurse.
00:40:43.603 --> 00:40:43.693
Yeah.
00:40:43.994 --> 00:40:44.893
That's is another thing.
00:40:45.193 --> 00:40:48.253
But that they didn't even go bother to go get her when she called.
00:40:48.523 --> 00:40:49.393
They're like, yeah.
00:40:49.393 --> 00:40:58.813
Anyway, Sally we're, we've got a lot on our books today, so I can't, if you could just come back and she's like, eh, I don't think I'm gonna do that.
00:40:59.114 --> 00:41:00.193
We gotta stop at Dunking.
00:41:00.193 --> 00:41:01.483
We need some donuts and shit.
00:41:01.514 --> 00:41:01.574
Yeah.
00:41:01.574 --> 00:41:02.744
I don't have time for this.
00:41:03.134 --> 00:41:04.724
If you're not gonna come get me
00:41:06.494 --> 00:41:07.364
four years later.
00:41:07.393 --> 00:41:08.773
Yeah, I'm gonna go to Idaho.
00:41:11.503 --> 00:41:15.434
She was returned to California custody on October 21st, 1974.
00:41:18.103 --> 00:41:23.893
In March of 1975, Norris was just charged without parole.
00:41:27.224 --> 00:41:30.373
They just gave up and she returned to Idaho.
00:41:30.373 --> 00:41:30.943
Soon after
00:41:31.273 --> 00:41:33.313
they said we got bigger fish, fish to fry.
00:41:33.704 --> 00:41:34.423
So.
00:41:36.853 --> 00:41:38.503
But that she was only back in custody.
00:41:38.503 --> 00:41:40.063
So missing for four years.
00:41:40.123 --> 00:41:40.244
Mm-hmm.
00:41:40.724 --> 00:41:42.014
That would never happen today.
00:41:42.014 --> 00:41:42.643
Never.
00:41:42.733 --> 00:41:50.324
Uh, she was out doing her thing for four years and then they're like, just give us five more months.
00:41:50.384 --> 00:41:51.224
You can get the fuck.
00:41:51.224 --> 00:41:51.523
Alright.
00:41:51.523 --> 00:41:54.673
We'll call it Even let bygones be bygones.
00:41:55.273 --> 00:41:56.083
We fucked up.
00:41:56.083 --> 00:41:57.043
You fucked up.
00:41:58.719 --> 00:41:59.233
It's okay.
00:42:01.094 --> 00:42:01.423
Never
00:42:01.423 --> 00:42:02.054
would happen.
00:42:03.403 --> 00:42:06.134
So there's a little background on Ms.
00:42:06.193 --> 00:42:08.983
Sally needs slash Norris.
00:42:09.043 --> 00:42:10.153
She's got a little history.
00:42:10.153 --> 00:42:10.514
Yeah.
00:42:10.603 --> 00:42:11.773
A little bit.
00:42:12.074 --> 00:42:14.713
So back to the bond.
00:42:15.373 --> 00:42:15.884
Yeah.
00:42:16.153 --> 00:42:16.844
Okay.
00:42:17.503 --> 00:42:18.523
let's move back.
00:42:19.063 --> 00:42:21.273
Back into, 1976.
00:42:21.278 --> 00:42:21.289
Mm-hmm.
00:42:21.358 --> 00:42:22.318
Where all this is going down.
00:42:24.543 --> 00:42:31.594
Needs indeed posted the$25,000 bond and was released from the ADA County Jail on November 11th.
00:42:32.074 --> 00:42:50.463
Outliving life at a hearing two days later, ey granted a defense request to postpone the trial until the week of May 2nd, 1977, saying the defense needed additional time to prepare needs appeared in court until the judge that the new trial date was acceptable to her.
00:42:51.213 --> 00:42:53.733
And this is because of the speedy trial stuff.
00:42:54.574 --> 00:42:54.664
Sure.
00:42:54.664 --> 00:42:54.994
I'm glad she's, I'm glad
00:42:54.994 --> 00:42:56.583
that it worked for her though, because
00:42:56.583 --> 00:43:04.414
she's a busy woman and if you're busy and have appointments, apparently the court has to abide by that.
00:43:05.434 --> 00:43:11.764
If, if a jail sentence is gonna make you lose your job, the court can't impose that sentence.
00:43:12.123 --> 00:43:12.963
You're still hung up on.
00:43:13.083 --> 00:43:16.264
She's, I'm so hung up on our last episode, episode 51.
00:43:16.893 --> 00:43:24.903
Like I still, well, they couldn't even do three months'cause it didn't, it didn't work with their schedules
00:43:26.014 --> 00:43:26.103
guys.
00:43:27.454 --> 00:43:28.324
Oh, I think it's so funny.
00:43:30.213 --> 00:43:40.864
Her attorney said the bond arrangements have been made in California and that needs would return there briefly to retrieve personal belongings because she had the relative down there with the bond and all that stuff.
00:43:42.003 --> 00:43:42.153
Alright.
00:43:42.153 --> 00:43:45.034
Weird that they're allowed to go across state lines.
00:43:45.903 --> 00:43:47.673
The process, it's so fucking weird.
00:43:47.704 --> 00:43:49.864
You can't even leave the county if you're on parole.
00:43:49.954 --> 00:43:50.193
Mm-hmm.
00:43:50.554 --> 00:43:54.034
But you're out just on a, on a fucking first degree murder charge.
00:43:54.063 --> 00:43:58.713
You posted a bond heading to Cali, going back to Cali.
00:43:59.403 --> 00:44:06.389
Kelly, Kelly, and she did the prosecution, which had opposed any reduction in bail.
00:44:07.009 --> 00:44:09.289
Objected to the delay, but agreed to the continue.
00:44:09.349 --> 00:44:11.449
They're like, are you not seeing what we're seeing?
00:44:11.628 --> 00:44:12.199
Thank you.
00:44:12.228 --> 00:44:14.809
But they're like, go for it then.
00:44:15.108 --> 00:44:15.409
Fine.
00:44:15.438 --> 00:44:16.278
What am I gonna do?
00:44:18.139 --> 00:44:25.338
As the case moved toward trial, the motor home that had been seized as evidence became this subject of a separate court dispute.
00:44:26.059 --> 00:44:26.509
Uh oh.
00:44:27.528 --> 00:44:31.429
And for some OGs around here, Dan Webo Ford,
00:44:31.728 --> 00:44:33.139
Dan Webo Ford,
00:44:33.648 --> 00:44:44.628
an AMPA Auto dealer, filed suit in the fourth district court seeking the return of the 24 foot champion motor home, valued at over$14,000.
00:44:44.628 --> 00:44:45.978
Pretty penny back then,
00:44:46.009 --> 00:44:48.378
which had been impounded during the investigation.
00:44:49.608 --> 00:44:50.809
Give us our stuff back.
00:44:52.278 --> 00:44:55.728
The dealer said the vehicle was being wrongfully detained and asserted.
00:44:55.789 --> 00:44:57.829
It was lawful.
00:44:57.918 --> 00:44:59.418
It was the lawful owner.
00:45:00.498 --> 00:45:06.798
Yeah, I know, but you'd be given loans to murderers and you know,
00:45:07.398 --> 00:45:19.759
and so you are WebU someone was very likely killed or maimed, you know, in this motor home unlawfully detained.
00:45:20.599 --> 00:45:20.838
Hmm.
00:45:20.838 --> 00:45:20.869
Uh,
00:45:21.438 --> 00:45:23.418
I think that's up to debate here.
00:45:23.449 --> 00:45:23.628
Might
00:45:23.628 --> 00:45:23.989
be a little
00:45:23.989 --> 00:45:24.588
stretch.
00:45:24.614 --> 00:45:29.659
You, you might, there's gotta be some type of insurance for this and they probably should have had it.
00:45:29.958 --> 00:45:33.079
Like someone kills someone in your vehicle that's on loan.
00:45:33.679 --> 00:45:35.659
Your vehicle, the vehicle's impounded.
00:45:36.079 --> 00:45:36.889
Write it off.
00:45:36.978 --> 00:45:38.148
It's got you.
00:45:38.148 --> 00:45:38.989
Write it off.
00:45:40.159 --> 00:45:40.909
Fucking shit's crazy.
00:45:41.329 --> 00:45:42.739
Uh, little side note here.
00:45:42.798 --> 00:45:50.659
Well, the motor home had just been purchased by Ronald shortly before his death and was taken into custody after investigators learned.
00:45:50.659 --> 00:45:53.748
Sally needs had been driving it near the area where the torso was found.
00:45:54.559 --> 00:45:58.818
But I am wondering, so Ron.
00:45:58.938 --> 00:46:01.248
S brother worked at Dan Weald.
00:46:01.938 --> 00:46:02.088
Oh, really?
00:46:02.088 --> 00:46:07.309
So I'm wondering if they like made a special deal for him maybe to not get a, a loan through a bank.
00:46:07.309 --> 00:46:09.648
Maybe it was a direct, now I'm thinking about it.
00:46:10.248 --> 00:46:11.239
Maybe it was like,
00:46:11.509 --> 00:46:12.559
so they were more like,
00:46:13.039 --> 00:46:13.219
give us
00:46:13.219 --> 00:46:13.789
our shit.
00:46:13.878 --> 00:46:14.418
Yeah.
00:46:14.509 --> 00:46:14.958
By owner.
00:46:14.958 --> 00:46:16.699
There was no bank that was out.
00:46:16.759 --> 00:46:18.798
He, it was actually the dealership.
00:46:20.179 --> 00:46:20.778
So it,
00:46:21.318 --> 00:46:23.204
and I bet, I bet it hurt to get, I'm just
00:46:23.204 --> 00:46:23.523
dotting
00:46:23.523 --> 00:46:25.728
right now to give someone a special deal.
00:46:25.789 --> 00:46:25.909
Mm-hmm.
00:46:25.998 --> 00:46:29.028
Special hookup and now you're never gonna get the payments for that.
00:46:29.028 --> 00:46:31.518
And you've lost a$14,000 vehicle
00:46:31.909 --> 00:46:36.048
and there's a, a dead torso guy out in the desert.
00:46:36.048 --> 00:46:36.884
God damn.
00:46:37.969 --> 00:46:46.548
Dan Weil Ford asked the court to order Ada County prosecutor David Leroy and defense attorney Ellison Matthews to show cause why the vehicle should not be returned.
00:46:47.509 --> 00:46:48.559
Prosecutors were
00:46:48.559 --> 00:46:48.949
like,
00:46:49.639 --> 00:46:52.309
no, it's evidence an a
00:46:52.309 --> 00:46:53.478
pending murder case.
00:46:55.423 --> 00:46:57.438
And again, like so.
00:46:58.233 --> 00:47:06.213
You know, you hear about these more modern day murders and how they'll just take your phone and they're not gonna give it back until the trial.
00:47:06.423 --> 00:47:09.813
If they give it back, it's when the trial's complete.
00:47:09.813 --> 00:47:10.594
That's years.
00:47:10.804 --> 00:47:11.253
Years.
00:47:11.253 --> 00:47:13.023
And you just gotta buy.
00:47:13.023 --> 00:47:14.643
If you're innocent or guilty,
00:47:15.094 --> 00:47:16.653
you gotta just go buy a new phone.
00:47:16.744 --> 00:47:17.134
Yeah.
00:47:17.914 --> 00:47:19.023
You're your shit outta luck.
00:47:19.353 --> 00:47:31.684
That'd be a weird conversation going into like T-Mobile or Verizon being like, look, I don't have, I, I don't know how difficult this is gonna be, but the police have my phone and I need to get a new phone.
00:47:32.224 --> 00:47:34.414
I was just a little murder thing anyway.
00:47:35.134 --> 00:47:38.914
Um, is there any way to import my contacts?
00:47:39.003 --> 00:47:39.244
Yeah,
00:47:39.244 --> 00:47:39.364
please.
00:47:39.364 --> 00:47:42.304
And get all my pictures back without actually physically having my, is there
00:47:42.304 --> 00:47:43.804
anything on the cloud?
00:47:44.014 --> 00:47:44.313
Yeah, please.
00:47:44.403 --> 00:47:47.583
And then the sales person's like, oh my fucking God.
00:47:47.583 --> 00:47:48.063
Anyway.
00:47:48.123 --> 00:47:49.623
Um, in their brain, right?
00:47:49.983 --> 00:47:53.313
And then they, well, T two backup to the cloud.
00:47:54.048 --> 00:47:55.608
And what if it's no, then they're like,
00:47:56.838 --> 00:48:18.048
and don't murder me because you know, please, as the case moved forward, defense attorney Matthews sought a change of venue arguing that extensive publicity following Sally needs arrest had made it impossible to see an impartial jury in Ada County.
00:48:18.679 --> 00:48:23.239
And we've had this several times and it's move it, if you need to move it, move it.
00:48:23.239 --> 00:48:26.719
Because this is a lot of the What causes the appeals?
00:48:26.719 --> 00:48:27.318
Appeals appeal,
00:48:28.068 --> 00:48:29.568
or you can bust in.
00:48:29.568 --> 00:48:30.409
Mm-hmm.
00:48:30.469 --> 00:48:34.458
So a lot of reasons they don't wanna change the venue is because of the price.
00:48:34.518 --> 00:48:34.938
Oh yeah.
00:48:34.969 --> 00:48:35.239
'cause
00:48:35.239 --> 00:48:36.684
they buy it because then they're paying for everybody to
00:48:37.103 --> 00:48:37.963
hotels per
00:48:37.963 --> 00:48:44.208
deal meals look, and that's a lot more people than 12 jurors.
00:48:44.329 --> 00:48:44.418
Mm-hmm.
00:48:44.688 --> 00:48:46.489
Or even with the alternates and all that stuff.
00:48:46.909 --> 00:48:48.079
Just bring them here.
00:48:48.318 --> 00:48:48.648
Yeah,
00:48:49.009 --> 00:48:50.239
bring them here.
00:48:50.719 --> 00:48:52.489
If you can prove a concern, do it.
00:48:53.599 --> 00:48:54.318
Exactly.
00:48:55.188 --> 00:48:57.079
'cause then we just save on all of that.
00:48:58.969 --> 00:49:09.918
judge Darci denied the motion ruling that a fair jury could still be selected despite the coverage again, needs remain free on that$25,000 bond
00:49:10.039 --> 00:49:10.789
living life
00:49:10.878 --> 00:49:21.079
as a jury selection began in Boise, the trial opened the week of May 2nd, 1977 before a jury of eight women and four men.
00:49:21.708 --> 00:49:35.298
Ada County prosecutor David Leroy, told jurors the state would prove that Sally needs murdered her husband and attempted to conceal the crime by dismembering and burning his body to prevent identification.
00:49:36.559 --> 00:49:49.009
Leroy described the marriage as a as stormy and said the evidence would show that the defendant was the last person seen with her husband and was repeatedly present near the place where the body was found.
00:49:49.039 --> 00:49:49.278
Yeah.
00:49:49.278 --> 00:49:50.509
Why are you just.
00:49:50.974 --> 00:49:58.503
Zooming around repeatedly this place, and you didn't see the door with the feet,
00:49:59.373 --> 00:50:02.043
especially if you were looking for your missing husband.
00:50:02.103 --> 00:50:03.244
Where's my husband?
00:50:03.574 --> 00:50:06.333
Oh, couldn't be the, couldn't be those feet underneath the door.
00:50:06.364 --> 00:50:06.603
Yeah.
00:50:07.054 --> 00:50:09.034
Laying damn near nearby the side of the road.
00:50:11.344 --> 00:50:14.523
And in a weird, I will never understand.
00:50:14.523 --> 00:50:17.313
Process, thought, process.
00:50:17.704 --> 00:50:20.344
The defense counsel reserved opening remarks.
00:50:21.304 --> 00:50:36.574
And this is so weird when defenses do this, and you know, it can be said, usually the argument is the defense does not have the burden of proof, is what you hear from lawyers when they do this.
00:50:36.693 --> 00:50:44.673
However, even though you don't have to prove something, I, your job is to build doubt and without an opening statement.
00:50:44.673 --> 00:50:49.443
And you see some of these folks that don't ever call any of their own witnesses and don't even do sometimes a closing statement.
00:50:50.373 --> 00:50:51.603
It's fucking weird.
00:50:51.603 --> 00:50:52.534
That's not how it works.
00:50:52.534 --> 00:50:54.123
It's a cop out to me.
00:50:54.123 --> 00:50:58.023
I feel like it's for lawyers that can't handle the case anyway.
00:50:58.023 --> 00:51:02.043
But they're like, no, but listen to the strategery that I have.
00:51:02.463 --> 00:51:10.474
I'm so smart because if I, if I try to prove something, then they can pick it apart, but it, they just have to prove it.
00:51:10.474 --> 00:51:13.443
And I think that my case is strong enough,
00:51:14.673 --> 00:51:19.623
and more than likely it's that they don't even know how to present a defense.
00:51:19.653 --> 00:51:19.744
Mm-hmm.
00:51:20.103 --> 00:51:24.304
And so they're gonna wait till the prosecution lays out its case and they'll be like, ah ha.
00:51:25.023 --> 00:51:25.173
Yeah.
00:51:25.264 --> 00:51:26.403
This is what happened.
00:51:26.494 --> 00:51:29.583
Now I can go based on what they put forth.
00:51:30.094 --> 00:51:30.333
Yeah.
00:51:30.364 --> 00:51:30.903
It's weird.
00:51:31.023 --> 00:51:35.253
And I've heard somebody, like, also, I didn't want the prosecution to know my hand.
00:51:36.094 --> 00:51:36.753
Okay.
00:51:36.813 --> 00:51:39.724
But courtrooms are theater.
00:51:40.083 --> 00:51:40.923
Mm-hmm.
00:51:41.224 --> 00:51:47.704
And you're, you're not building that emotional connection with the jury of consider this point of view.
00:51:47.824 --> 00:51:49.054
What if this happened to you?
00:51:49.059 --> 00:51:49.068
Like.
00:51:50.239 --> 00:51:53.568
And you weren't guilty'cause you would never do that jury, would you?
00:51:54.048 --> 00:51:59.509
So isn't it reasonable to believe that maybe this is just a bungled up Ky dink?
00:52:01.128 --> 00:52:01.278
No.
00:52:01.278 --> 00:52:02.809
Instead I'm just gonna keep my mouth shut.
00:52:02.898 --> 00:52:04.369
Yeah, it's, I don't like it.
00:52:04.369 --> 00:52:06.679
I, I think it's a fucking total cop out.
00:52:08.059 --> 00:52:17.179
The state's first witness described, discover the discovery of the body, Lewis Burke, an Emmett Landscaper and former cowboy.
00:52:17.539 --> 00:52:18.753
Love that me too.
00:52:18.753 --> 00:52:19.579
That they described.
00:52:19.579 --> 00:52:28.969
That testified that he discovered the body on June 29th while driving along a dirt road in the Boise foothills that he said he had traveled frequently.
00:52:29.568 --> 00:52:33.798
Burke told the jury he was out riding in the hills over a road.
00:52:33.978 --> 00:52:38.838
He had traveled a thousand times when something near the roadside caught his attention.
00:52:39.619 --> 00:52:47.179
He said he noticed an old door leaning lengthwise and that it stood out because it was not something he had seen there before.
00:52:48.409 --> 00:52:52.699
And I, I would never wanna stumble upon something like this, so this is awful.
00:52:54.349 --> 00:52:59.478
And you know, these, these good old boys out there riding in the hills, they're like,
00:52:59.539 --> 00:52:59.628
mm-hmm.
00:53:00.199 --> 00:53:01.668
That wasn't there yesterday.
00:53:02.659 --> 00:53:02.898
Yeah.
00:53:02.898 --> 00:53:04.429
They know it like the back of their hand.
00:53:04.458 --> 00:53:04.608
Yeah.
00:53:05.838 --> 00:53:10.608
Burke testified that as he passed the door, he saw what appeared to be human remains beneath it.
00:53:12.199 --> 00:53:20.239
I went past it five or six feet and I seen those feet with the toes pointed downward, and I knew they had to be human.
00:53:21.168 --> 00:53:26.958
He said, he told the jury there was nothing between the door and the road to block the view.
00:53:27.289 --> 00:53:28.248
You couldn't miss it.
00:53:28.429 --> 00:53:30.289
There's nothing between it and the road.
00:53:30.289 --> 00:53:30.588
Burke
00:53:30.588 --> 00:53:33.318
said so again poorly.
00:53:33.559 --> 00:53:35.208
Why is it right by the road?
00:53:35.239 --> 00:53:37.009
It couldn't be 50 yards out.
00:53:38.358 --> 00:53:40.188
It would've probably been never noticed.
00:53:41.389 --> 00:53:45.043
We're talking like desert planes of nothingness.
00:53:45.318 --> 00:53:45.378
Yeah.
00:53:46.099 --> 00:53:48.079
Got his piece of sagebrush somewhere or something.
00:53:48.079 --> 00:53:48.858
Hello?
00:53:51.918 --> 00:53:56.599
He testified that the body appeared to be wrapped in a sheet and that the head and arms were missing.
00:53:57.318 --> 00:54:03.469
Look, I see feet hanging out of a door in the desert.
00:54:03.889 --> 00:54:04.608
I am.
00:54:04.849 --> 00:54:05.869
I'm not looking.
00:54:06.018 --> 00:54:09.199
Um, I see feet.
00:54:09.199 --> 00:54:10.699
I am backing up and getting in the
00:54:10.699 --> 00:54:10.909
car.
00:54:10.909 --> 00:54:12.648
I'm not, I'm not gonna flip over the door.
00:54:13.518 --> 00:54:23.088
And I'm different because I feel like I would, especially if I had never been into like true crime and worried about contaminating a scene.
00:54:23.869 --> 00:54:28.668
'cause I feel like my mind is like, surely that cannot be, you know?
00:54:28.699 --> 00:54:32.179
It's how people see a traumatic event and they're like, that's not happening.
00:54:32.748 --> 00:54:34.369
But something crazy is happening.
00:54:34.369 --> 00:54:39.108
And so they don't call the cops, but they're just, their mind will not let them believe that this is real life.
00:54:39.108 --> 00:54:42.199
So I'd be like, this has gotta be a prank or something.
00:54:42.199 --> 00:54:55.219
And I probably would've flipped that thing over and I would've regretted it, because that's gotta be one of the most unsettling things you can see as a human, a body without a head or arms.
00:54:55.369 --> 00:55:00.228
Well, we've had a couple, uh, stories that we, that had decap, remember the Snake River one?
00:55:00.228 --> 00:55:00.318
Yes.
00:55:00.318 --> 00:55:01.938
Where those, the fishermen
00:55:01.938 --> 00:55:02.659
found, found it?
00:55:02.869 --> 00:55:05.059
Ooh, no.
00:55:05.059 --> 00:55:15.619
There's something, as humans, I think that anyone, whether you're a great person or maybe a not so great person, that's gonna stick with you.
00:55:15.708 --> 00:55:21.139
And it's not something, it's just so terrible.
00:55:21.139 --> 00:55:22.159
I feel bad for this guy.
00:55:22.159 --> 00:55:23.119
I know he is a good old boy.
00:55:23.119 --> 00:55:28.219
He's a cowboy, but that's just, no one should have to see that.
00:55:29.778 --> 00:55:35.088
He testified that the body appeared to be wrapped in a sheet and that the head and arms were missing.
00:55:35.329 --> 00:55:37.248
I cannot even quote.
00:55:37.458 --> 00:55:40.099
It looked like a body wrapped in some kind of sheet deal.
00:55:40.099 --> 00:55:43.789
Burke said, I just picture this guy right now,
00:55:43.789 --> 00:55:45.259
some kind of sheet deal.
00:55:45.949 --> 00:55:47.088
It looked headless.
00:55:47.449 --> 00:55:50.838
I just love that like the head and arms are missing.
00:55:50.929 --> 00:55:52.969
Well, yeah, that means headless, bro.
00:55:53.628 --> 00:55:53.778
Yeah,
00:55:54.954 --> 00:55:56.778
it looked pretty headless to me.
00:55:57.318 --> 00:55:58.248
Oh, sorry.
00:55:59.809 --> 00:56:02.929
He also told jurors he noticed insects around the remains.
00:56:03.918 --> 00:56:14.989
I noticed a few green flies floating around and he said Burke testified that he reported what he had seen to the sheriff's office in Emmett rather than trying to reach authorities elsewhere.
00:56:16.489 --> 00:56:24.918
He told the court he chose that route because it was quicker and easier than attempting to report the discovery from a nearby farmhouse or business.
00:56:25.998 --> 00:56:26.838
He's getting her done.
00:56:27.829 --> 00:56:29.929
Or to drive to Ada County.
00:56:30.048 --> 00:56:30.679
He said, no,
00:56:30.679 --> 00:56:32.478
I'm, I know where the sheriff's office is.
00:56:32.478 --> 00:56:33.048
I'll just go there.
00:56:34.309 --> 00:56:41.748
Berk later returned to the scene with a Jim County Sheriff's deputy who was joined by ADA County officers and investigators from Boise.
00:56:42.498 --> 00:56:44.509
'cause this be an ADA County case.
00:56:44.539 --> 00:56:45.018
Mm-hmm.
00:56:47.539 --> 00:56:51.259
Investigators testified about the condition of the scene and the remains.
00:56:51.798 --> 00:57:00.259
Ada County Sheriff's Detective Mike Roberts said the torso was partially burned, wrapped in a sheet and uncovered by a door.
00:57:00.949 --> 00:57:08.628
He said, officers found charred clothing, fragments under clothing, broken glass and wooden matches near the body.
00:57:09.199 --> 00:57:11.239
Those damn matchsticks.
00:57:12.679 --> 00:57:17.418
The head and arms were never located and I still think that's crazy.
00:57:17.748 --> 00:57:23.088
A whole fucking head look, I'm gonna tell you, bones of an arm.
00:57:23.793 --> 00:57:31.353
Once they're fully decomposed, just the bones itself maybe would look like an'cause you're not expecting to find mm-hmm.
00:57:31.594 --> 00:57:33.034
Human bones.
00:57:33.693 --> 00:57:38.043
So that could have been chalked up to deer and that's way easier to bury too.
00:57:38.074 --> 00:57:38.134
Yeah.
00:57:38.224 --> 00:57:39.903
You don't have to go too deep.
00:57:40.083 --> 00:57:50.014
No, but still, if I saw, I mean even up at the cabin you see longer bones and I always assume it's a deer or an elk or Yeah.
00:57:50.103 --> 00:57:51.333
Something of that nature.
00:57:51.393 --> 00:57:57.733
Never assume, that it is of human nature, but a skull.
00:57:59.054 --> 00:57:59.623
Mm-hmm.
00:57:59.713 --> 00:58:00.889
No getting around that.
00:58:01.668 --> 00:58:01.963
But that
00:58:02.054 --> 00:58:09.134
was never until to this day where we could test dental and DNA, that it still hasn't been found.
00:58:09.554 --> 00:58:09.793
Yeah.
00:58:10.393 --> 00:58:11.563
There's no mistaking.
00:58:11.893 --> 00:58:14.393
Remember that one we did about the guy in Idaho City and he was like.
00:58:14.983 --> 00:58:16.423
What is that underneath the tree?
00:58:16.634 --> 00:58:17.474
Yes.
00:58:17.594 --> 00:58:20.503
And he is like, I moved it skull a hundred percent.
00:58:20.503 --> 00:58:20.983
Skull.
00:58:21.164 --> 00:58:21.974
A hundred percent.
00:58:22.603 --> 00:58:23.173
You know,
00:58:23.474 --> 00:58:23.983
you know.
00:58:24.103 --> 00:58:27.463
But even that, like they didn't have cadaver dogs back then.
00:58:27.463 --> 00:58:33.193
And you know, Idaho, especially way back when, didn't have a lot of resources.
00:58:33.193 --> 00:58:41.293
But we couldn't call someone to bring in'cause I'm, it sounds like there was several locations where she was spotted.
00:58:41.324 --> 00:58:41.713
Yes.
00:58:42.103 --> 00:58:42.523
That's what I'm
00:58:42.523 --> 00:58:43.123
saying.
00:58:43.123 --> 00:58:54.103
Fenced in a location of, I mean, she was taking this damn motor home Offroading in places it shouldn't have been.
00:58:54.494 --> 00:58:56.713
She couldn't have gotten too far.
00:58:56.744 --> 00:59:00.974
You know, there's specific pinpoints of where she has been spotted.
00:59:00.978 --> 00:59:04.813
Mm-hmm So there's gotta be, I wish that that would've happened.
00:59:04.813 --> 00:59:05.684
'cause that would've,
00:59:06.884 --> 00:59:08.744
because there's there's issues, right.
00:59:08.804 --> 00:59:10.244
The defense is gonna be like me.
00:59:10.543 --> 00:59:11.923
Well, and even just for the family.
00:59:11.923 --> 00:59:12.014
Yeah.
00:59:12.074 --> 00:59:14.443
Like knowing that your family's body part.
00:59:14.744 --> 00:59:21.853
Head and arms are somewhere out in the wilderness that's unsettling.
00:59:21.943 --> 00:59:22.094
Yeah.
00:59:22.094 --> 00:59:28.724
And there's just something that I think people, it helps with healing to be able to have someone's body.
00:59:29.594 --> 00:59:29.744
Yeah.
00:59:29.744 --> 00:59:43.128
I feel like there wasn't, uh, much effort and I didn't actually see anything in, uh, my research where they're like, they had, you know, 20 sheriff's deputies out there and they called in doing
00:59:43.168 --> 00:59:43.648
a big search
00:59:43.869 --> 00:59:45.583
or like a, I didn't see any of that stuff.
00:59:45.583 --> 00:59:45.643
Yeah.
00:59:46.574 --> 00:59:47.563
So you just wonder
00:59:48.673 --> 00:59:51.583
it like, well, we're missing this, but we got it.
00:59:51.643 --> 00:59:53.414
We got a torso and legs.
00:59:54.704 --> 01:00:08.503
Roberts testified that pathologists from around the country were consulted in an effort to identify the remains and that infrared photography failed to reveal, distinguishing, distinguishing scars because of the conditions of the body Fair.
01:00:08.773 --> 01:00:09.134
Yeah.
01:00:09.253 --> 01:00:11.264
And it's tough that he didn't have.
01:00:12.403 --> 01:00:21.793
A tattoo or some other like surgery with metal that they could have like screws in spine or something that they could have locked in
01:00:21.884 --> 01:00:23.083
because we did have that one.
01:00:23.083 --> 01:00:23.923
Sorry, I keep going back.
01:00:23.923 --> 01:00:29.114
No, but remember that one gal that was murdered by her husband and then she had had a hip
01:00:30.074 --> 01:00:30.434
Yes.
01:00:30.463 --> 01:00:30.884
Thing done.
01:00:30.884 --> 01:00:32.173
And they found her metal hip finally.
01:00:32.173 --> 01:00:32.264
Mm-hmm.
01:00:32.503 --> 01:00:33.673
Like 20 years later.
01:00:33.914 --> 01:00:34.364
Yeah.
01:00:34.454 --> 01:00:35.684
And she was identified by that.
01:00:35.684 --> 01:00:38.233
I just feel like there wasn't any real effort here.
01:00:38.713 --> 01:00:38.864
Yeah.
01:00:39.284 --> 01:00:42.253
It, and I feel like the body was too decomposed.
01:00:42.253 --> 01:00:45.253
'cause I mean everyone has birthmarks and freckles.
01:00:45.884 --> 01:00:46.123
You could, well
01:00:46.123 --> 01:00:47.534
I think the burning really did a
01:00:47.539 --> 01:00:47.608
number.
01:00:47.608 --> 01:00:47.969
Mm-hmm.
01:00:48.733 --> 01:00:48.943
Yeah.
01:00:48.974 --> 01:01:01.664
'cause they tried to burn and maybe they were successful in burning the smaller, like arm's head or more successful and then that made it easy to go dispose of that in the river or something.
01:01:01.664 --> 01:01:04.574
Maybe she, maybe she cut off an arm and burned it and was like cool at.
01:01:05.713 --> 01:01:06.824
Maybe she cut off the other
01:01:07.034 --> 01:01:13.244
and maybe she got tired and was like this cutting of the limbs is just throw the whole thing in there and then that didn't work.
01:01:13.244 --> 01:01:14.744
There had to be drugs involved.
01:01:15.403 --> 01:01:16.273
Drugs, yeah,
01:01:16.574 --> 01:01:17.204
for sure.
01:01:17.653 --> 01:01:19.153
She liked the Coca-Cola.
01:01:19.153 --> 01:01:22.184
I think she liked the cocaine pro possibly as well.
01:01:23.653 --> 01:01:23.864
Dr.
01:01:23.864 --> 01:01:25.123
Delbert Scott.
01:01:25.364 --> 01:01:25.934
Love that.
01:01:25.934 --> 01:01:26.233
Dr.
01:01:26.233 --> 01:01:26.684
Delbert
01:01:26.833 --> 01:01:27.704
Delbert,
01:01:27.793 --> 01:01:33.704
who performed the autopsy, testified that the body had suffered six stab wounds to the abdomen.
01:01:34.063 --> 01:01:35.983
She really likes going for the gut, doesn't she?
01:01:36.373 --> 01:01:38.083
Yeah, and that's scary.
01:01:38.083 --> 01:01:42.284
Like just picturing being stabbed six times, even once, but that
01:01:43.244 --> 01:01:45.793
those wounds likely did not cause death.
01:01:49.034 --> 01:01:56.833
He had to be in some state of, maybe he really did take those sleeping pills.
01:01:58.259 --> 01:02:07.559
And was trying to run on some adrenaline, but also being very inebriated, like drinking a bunch, plus sleeping pills is like mini coma.
01:02:08.159 --> 01:02:08.369
Right.
01:02:08.369 --> 01:02:11.998
I just dunno how she would be able to stab a man.
01:02:12.088 --> 01:02:12.179
Mm-hmm.
01:02:12.418 --> 01:02:15.778
Me as a woman, I don't know how I would get away with stabbing a man.
01:02:15.778 --> 01:02:15.869
You've
01:02:15.869 --> 01:02:16.858
gotta be so close
01:02:16.858 --> 01:02:19.693
six times in the stomach and not have that
01:02:19.713 --> 01:02:20.934
get knocked out in
01:02:20.934 --> 01:02:21.134
the head.
01:02:21.134 --> 01:02:22.168
Locked, have a response.
01:02:22.469 --> 01:02:23.009
Yeah.
01:02:23.398 --> 01:02:32.458
I might get away with it once sneaking and run maybe twice if they're sleeping or like super, like quick about it, like ninja skills, which I do not have.
01:02:33.478 --> 01:02:37.619
But six times there had to been something going on, right?
01:02:37.623 --> 01:02:37.773
Mm-hmm.
01:02:38.003 --> 01:02:38.293
Yeah.
01:02:38.324 --> 01:02:38.614
Okay.
01:02:38.764 --> 01:02:39.054
Okay.
01:02:40.153 --> 01:02:44.429
Uh, but those wounds to the abdomen likely did not cause his death.
01:02:45.389 --> 01:02:52.798
He said gunshot wounds to the neck, decapitation or a slit throat could have been fatal.
01:02:53.474 --> 01:02:55.844
So we're saying it's not the stabs to the stomach
01:02:55.844 --> 01:02:56.159
that killed him.
01:02:56.159 --> 01:02:56.744
It's not many stabs.
01:02:56.744 --> 01:02:56.983
No.
01:02:56.983 --> 01:02:58.664
Something happened with the head
01:02:59.864 --> 01:03:02.983
and it again leads you to think back on the scene.
01:03:03.733 --> 01:03:05.414
The stabs probably happened first.
01:03:05.414 --> 01:03:07.724
Why would they happen after someone was already dead?
01:03:08.534 --> 01:03:12.043
And so then you're saying, oh, oh, that didn't work.
01:03:12.313 --> 01:03:12.764
Right.
01:03:14.324 --> 01:03:28.423
So you're just wondering the time that passes, you know, someone trying to help themselves because they're stabbed, and the thought process that you're going through of not being able to be like, oh, let's see.
01:03:28.844 --> 01:03:35.114
Yeah, maybe, maybe you need to get you to the hospital instead of like, oh, now I gotta kill you.
01:03:38.503 --> 01:03:50.773
Maybe Scott testified that insect activity indicated the body had been exposed outdoors for several hours before the discovery, but that the victim had been dead for several days.
01:03:51.659 --> 01:03:54.179
So where was this body before?
01:03:54.179 --> 01:03:58.079
It was underneath a door On the side of the road is what I want to know.
01:03:59.728 --> 01:04:00.418
Same si.
01:04:02.248 --> 01:04:04.469
Because of decomposition and the burning.
01:04:04.469 --> 01:04:07.048
He said some identifying features could not be examined.
01:04:07.318 --> 01:04:07.469
Mm-hmm.
01:04:08.608 --> 01:04:11.818
Other experts addressed identification because this is huge.
01:04:11.818 --> 01:04:12.478
They pulled in.
01:04:12.778 --> 01:04:13.139
They pulled
01:04:13.139 --> 01:04:13.528
out all
01:04:13.528 --> 01:04:13.949
stops.
01:04:13.949 --> 01:04:15.898
If you go back to the preliminary hearing.
01:04:16.574 --> 01:04:19.543
The defense was like, it's not even, it's not even her husband.
01:04:19.543 --> 01:04:20.653
Like what?
01:04:20.653 --> 01:04:21.373
Who's to say?
01:04:21.403 --> 01:04:22.813
Who's to say who that is?
01:04:22.873 --> 01:04:32.983
They don't have a head, which again, I will say, I know I talked a lot of shit, but in the seventies, cutting off head and hands.
01:04:32.983 --> 01:04:33.373
I mean, shoot.
01:04:33.373 --> 01:04:35.563
Went for the full arm, not just the hands.
01:04:35.864 --> 01:04:40.784
Maybe he had some type of identifying feature, but no DNA.
01:04:42.253 --> 01:04:45.494
No dental records, no fingerprints.
01:04:45.824 --> 01:04:48.164
Note to self really?
01:04:48.164 --> 01:04:51.853
Probably should have a tattoo on every part of part of my body.
01:04:51.914 --> 01:04:53.023
Every extremity.
01:04:53.324 --> 01:04:54.043
Get a tattoo
01:04:54.043 --> 01:04:54.793
appendage.
01:04:54.974 --> 01:04:55.483
Let's go.
01:04:55.483 --> 01:04:56.684
Can you imagine?
01:04:56.684 --> 01:04:59.923
Sprinkle'em on like a fucking Chipotle bag wrapper.
01:05:00.014 --> 01:05:01.784
I love those type of, I think they're cute.
01:05:01.844 --> 01:05:01.994
Yeah.
01:05:02.083 --> 01:05:02.684
Let's go.
01:05:03.583 --> 01:05:04.873
Maybe that'll be our new goal.
01:05:04.963 --> 01:05:05.083
Okay.
01:05:05.744 --> 01:05:07.153
Little mini tats everywhere.
01:05:07.184 --> 01:05:07.543
Yeah.
01:05:08.773 --> 01:05:10.304
Who's in, are you guys in?
01:05:11.414 --> 01:05:13.153
Let's go just in case I accidentally.
01:05:13.333 --> 01:05:14.954
Can you imagine walking into a tattoo shop?
01:05:14.954 --> 01:05:16.063
Listen, this is my plan.
01:05:16.244 --> 01:05:23.623
It's kind of a long term, but short term plan, it's gonna be lots of visits, but I wanna do it in the short term because I need a tattoo.
01:05:24.074 --> 01:05:29.384
All of my appendages, extremities, everything, just in case I get murdered
01:05:29.384 --> 01:05:32.503
in December, I need 16 to 24 quarter sized tattoos.
01:05:32.503 --> 01:05:33.284
Can you help me?
01:05:33.494 --> 01:05:33.974
Thank you.
01:05:34.393 --> 01:05:36.164
And I want it very well documented.
01:05:36.164 --> 01:05:36.704
Okay.
01:05:37.273 --> 01:05:40.364
I mean, I'm gonna put it in the cloud, but will you put it in the cloud too?
01:05:40.364 --> 01:05:40.393
Okay.
01:05:40.844 --> 01:05:41.563
I'm in the cloud.
01:05:41.563 --> 01:05:42.344
You're in the cloud.
01:05:42.344 --> 01:05:43.753
I'm gonna post it on my Facebook
01:05:43.753 --> 01:05:48.103
just in case somebody forgets my password that I give in my murder book.
01:05:48.164 --> 01:05:52.813
There's one uh, podcast that says you should have a murder book or a disappearance book.
01:05:53.233 --> 01:05:54.673
So just in case.
01:05:54.853 --> 01:05:54.943
Mm-hmm.
01:05:55.184 --> 01:05:56.173
That gets missing.
01:05:56.173 --> 01:05:58.963
I need somebody else to have access to these pictures in the cloud.
01:05:59.023 --> 01:06:07.603
I mean, we could take it to 16 different QR codes where it goes to the tattoo artist or it goes to your Facebook and the tattoo artist.
01:06:07.903 --> 01:06:10.153
Actually, you don't even to, let's just do QR codes.
01:06:10.153 --> 01:06:10.454
Okay.
01:06:11.293 --> 01:06:14.954
It goes straight to make your whole body QR codes.
01:06:15.014 --> 01:06:18.643
It goes straight to my, either my TikTok, my Facebook, my Insta, it
01:06:18.643 --> 01:06:23.893
goes to like one of our weirdest tiktoks and they're like, what the fuck is this?
01:06:23.893 --> 01:06:25.034
Who are these girls?
01:06:26.353 --> 01:06:30.224
Like, this isn't really helpful, but I'll give it a like,
01:06:31.434 --> 01:06:33.923
other experts addressed identification.
01:06:33.923 --> 01:06:42.983
A radiologist testified that x-rays revealed possible bullet fragments in the neck, but they could not establish I'm identity.
01:06:43.193 --> 01:06:45.623
I'm just loving, we're getting radiology.
01:06:45.653 --> 01:06:45.744
Mm-hmm.
01:06:45.983 --> 01:06:47.244
There's lots of experts.
01:06:47.304 --> 01:06:47.393
They're
01:06:47.603 --> 01:06:48.173
trying,
01:06:48.293 --> 01:06:51.353
prosecution is prosecuting
01:06:51.503 --> 01:06:51.744
love.
01:06:51.744 --> 01:06:56.063
They're getting all their experts, which I love because this is back in the day, this is in the seventies
01:06:56.063 --> 01:07:00.893
when you're like, you, if you don't have this one thing, then you can't prove.
01:07:00.893 --> 01:07:02.184
And it's like, yes, you can.
01:07:02.304 --> 01:07:08.813
Circumstantial cases are iffy sometimes, but when there's 32 pieces of evidence.
01:07:09.204 --> 01:07:29.708
Where it's like any human couldn't reasonably be like, this isn't just an unlucky winky dink that you bought a silencer and a gun and it's the exact, you know, caliber and you were spotted on camera and you bought, you know, a book on how to do a murder and not get caught.
01:07:30.309 --> 01:07:38.259
Like the, there every single winky dink cannot be all of'em together, make a case.
01:07:38.378 --> 01:07:39.489
I love those ones.
01:07:39.938 --> 01:07:59.259
Speaking of experts, an anthropologist, ooh, testified that the remains of those were of a white male in his early to mid thirties, approximately five feet, eight inches to five feet, 10 inches tall, and weighing between 165 and 175 pounds.
01:07:59.438 --> 01:08:00.039
So they're.
01:08:00.173 --> 01:08:04.043
they're shortening the range of people where it could be anyone.
01:08:04.193 --> 01:08:05.333
Well, not really.
01:08:05.393 --> 01:08:07.344
It couldn't just be anyone.
01:08:07.494 --> 01:08:08.664
It couldn't be you or me.
01:08:08.664 --> 01:08:10.014
No, it's not us.
01:08:11.454 --> 01:08:15.983
measurements that prosecutors said were consistent with Ronald needs.
01:08:16.554 --> 01:08:21.923
Again, another winky dink, but with all of the other evidence, very relevant
01:08:23.844 --> 01:08:26.873
witnesses, then placed Sally needs near the scene.
01:08:27.054 --> 01:08:27.713
Here we go.
01:08:28.854 --> 01:08:36.828
Jim County Deputy Ron Roman testified about three hours after the body was discovered that he had encountered needs driving that motor home.
01:08:36.828 --> 01:08:37.189
Mm-hmm.
01:08:37.463 --> 01:08:40.344
On a dirt road near the recovery site.
01:08:41.724 --> 01:08:45.984
He said she told him she had pulled off the highway to have a coke
01:08:47.003 --> 01:08:52.373
as one does, you just need an ice cold coke sometimes, and you're driving on the highway and dirt roads.
01:08:52.373 --> 01:08:57.029
And with everything you've told me, Danny, it sounds like.
01:08:57.969 --> 01:09:13.479
This gal was just rooting, tooting along with her big ass steering wheel, driving in circles around the area, not knowing what to do, and I bet drugs, drugs and the body in there, like
01:09:13.599 --> 01:09:14.139
flopping
01:09:14.139 --> 01:09:16.599
around looking for a good place.
01:09:16.988 --> 01:09:20.559
Right off Highway 16, she's like, fuck, this is taking way too long.
01:09:20.559 --> 01:09:22.538
Here's a door perfect.
01:09:23.948 --> 01:09:27.819
No one's gonna know who looks under a door on a dirt road.
01:09:27.819 --> 01:09:32.003
And then our little farmer friend is like, that door was not there,
01:09:34.029 --> 01:09:38.408
and it could have been there maybe another 30 or 40 feet off the road behind some sagebrush.
01:09:38.469 --> 01:09:39.219
Hello.
01:09:39.639 --> 01:09:44.078
But you know, Sally needs needed.
01:09:45.878 --> 01:09:50.168
Dude, you would've been better to get a fucking canvas.
01:09:51.038 --> 01:09:53.469
And listen, honey, you, you've done the escaping
01:09:53.469 --> 01:09:54.069
thing before.
01:09:54.069 --> 01:09:55.899
Why didn't you drive straight to Mexico?
01:09:56.543 --> 01:10:02.423
In 76, you could have been on a beach as in the sand.
01:10:02.573 --> 01:10:02.904
Well, and
01:10:02.993 --> 01:10:03.804
you wouldn't even have to
01:10:03.953 --> 01:10:06.413
look Money Saver did not
01:10:06.444 --> 01:10:08.123
even have to pay for hotel rooms.
01:10:08.844 --> 01:10:09.743
Home on Wheels,
01:10:09.774 --> 01:10:11.634
van Life back in the seven.
01:10:11.663 --> 01:10:13.373
You could have been the originator.
01:10:14.724 --> 01:10:18.533
I bet you it was a really nice rig for 74 being 14 pounds.
01:10:18.743 --> 01:10:19.344
Oh fuck.
01:10:19.344 --> 01:10:20.154
Brand new.
01:10:20.213 --> 01:10:20.304
Mm-hmm.
01:10:21.264 --> 01:10:22.224
No pop outs though.
01:10:22.224 --> 01:10:23.363
'cause this was 74.
01:10:23.368 --> 01:10:24.384
No, no, no, they're not doing that,
01:10:24.389 --> 01:10:24.833
but, but you know what?
01:10:24.833 --> 01:10:25.163
I bet
01:10:25.163 --> 01:10:25.944
State of the art.
01:10:26.453 --> 01:10:32.033
I bet you it had a two burner stove top and probably a little propane fridge inside.
01:10:32.033 --> 01:10:32.123
Mm-hmm.
01:10:32.904 --> 01:10:33.654
Yeah, for sure.
01:10:34.134 --> 01:10:35.753
No, I'm sure it was nice.
01:10:35.873 --> 01:10:36.444
And
01:10:36.804 --> 01:10:42.533
that's why Dan, Dan, we will wanted that fucking, he said, this is a top of the line rig.
01:10:42.564 --> 01:10:44.993
We can clean up the blood, we could resell the shit.
01:10:44.993 --> 01:10:46.583
There's no bullet holes or nothing in it.
01:10:46.673 --> 01:10:48.083
Fuck, there's no body parts.
01:10:48.083 --> 01:10:49.344
What's in, what's in the tank.
01:10:49.493 --> 01:10:50.783
Did you guys clear the tanks?
01:10:50.963 --> 01:10:51.354
Because Gray
01:10:51.354 --> 01:10:51.804
water,
01:10:51.863 --> 01:10:53.484
I wondered that with him.
01:10:53.873 --> 01:10:54.923
I think he probably was.
01:10:55.493 --> 01:10:56.873
That's where you put someone is in a tub.
01:10:56.873 --> 01:10:58.373
There's liquids that are happening.
01:10:58.854 --> 01:10:59.123
Yeah.
01:11:00.384 --> 01:11:03.354
I Did they even think to check the tank?
01:11:04.493 --> 01:11:08.753
I, I'm gonna be optimistic and say yes.
01:11:08.783 --> 01:11:10.823
I mean, eventually that vehicle had to go somewhere, so.
01:11:10.823 --> 01:11:10.913
Mm-hmm.
01:11:11.514 --> 01:11:12.533
Um, but,
01:11:13.104 --> 01:11:15.444
but especially since there wasn't DNA, it's like, what
01:11:15.444 --> 01:11:17.514
will, they didn't check the drains in the, the seventies.
01:11:17.519 --> 01:11:17.529
What
01:11:17.529 --> 01:11:25.554
will we, what will we find Bo bodily matter of some type that we can't prove is whoever's,
01:11:26.094 --> 01:11:29.453
well listen, they're not checking now.
01:11:29.453 --> 01:11:33.594
They check sinks and stuff because they can identify DNA that way.
01:11:33.599 --> 01:11:33.769
Mm-hmm.
01:11:34.078 --> 01:11:37.734
Back in the day, they're like, what good would be to find blood in a you, you
01:11:37.734 --> 01:11:38.873
don't know whose it is.
01:11:38.963 --> 01:11:40.224
Someone's on their period.
01:11:40.314 --> 01:11:41.243
Exactly.
01:11:41.484 --> 01:11:45.413
Or they cut themselves shaving or they had a nose bleed,
01:11:45.413 --> 01:11:47.333
A little accident in the bathroom even.
01:11:47.333 --> 01:11:47.514
Yeah.
01:11:47.514 --> 01:11:48.264
Who knows?
01:11:48.264 --> 01:11:52.434
So they're not looking for blood and drains Tell the fucking DNA came around, right?
01:11:52.734 --> 01:11:52.884
Mm-hmm.
01:11:53.243 --> 01:11:53.484
Yeah.
01:11:53.963 --> 01:11:54.713
I do believe that.
01:11:54.713 --> 01:11:55.283
I could be wrong.
01:11:55.283 --> 01:11:56.064
Correct me if I'm wrong,
01:11:57.413 --> 01:12:01.434
but I bet you had this happened today, that Tank would've told a story.
01:12:01.493 --> 01:12:02.423
Oh, fuck yeah.
01:12:02.753 --> 01:12:03.474
Everything.
01:12:03.533 --> 01:12:03.804
Yeah.
01:12:04.554 --> 01:12:08.333
And I bet you she didn't even anyways, bitch not be emptying the tank.
01:12:08.543 --> 01:12:09.323
Oh no.
01:12:09.323 --> 01:12:11.213
Yeah, because there were, why would you?
01:12:11.219 --> 01:12:11.609
Mm-hmm.
01:12:13.434 --> 01:12:18.894
Uh, deputy Roman said he found that, that have a coke stop.
01:12:18.894 --> 01:12:21.293
Unusual because of the terrain in the location.
01:12:21.293 --> 01:12:29.814
Because she's driving a 24 foot fucking listen sis, we've all done it.
01:12:30.684 --> 01:12:35.423
We have all been in a place up in the woods and we're like, um, went a little
01:12:35.423 --> 01:12:36.173
too far.
01:12:36.594 --> 01:12:37.913
Why is that?
01:12:37.913 --> 01:12:40.373
38 foot, fifth wheel.
01:12:40.583 --> 01:12:40.764
Yeah.
01:12:41.573 --> 01:12:42.173
Up here.
01:12:42.894 --> 01:12:46.344
Who the fuck's crazy husband thought.
01:12:47.198 --> 01:12:49.389
You're on a trail that's like meant for four wheelers.
01:12:49.448 --> 01:12:50.408
That's that wide.
01:12:50.439 --> 01:12:50.588
Yeah.
01:12:50.618 --> 01:12:52.569
And you've got a fucking rv Yeah.
01:12:52.569 --> 01:12:54.069
Tour bus up there.
01:12:54.099 --> 01:12:54.729
Exactly.
01:12:54.759 --> 01:12:55.389
Hello?
01:12:55.748 --> 01:12:58.809
Like this is really kind of a tenting, maybe a little popup camper.
01:12:58.809 --> 01:13:01.838
Maybe like a 12, 16 foot, those cute little ones
01:13:01.929 --> 01:13:02.349
there.
01:13:02.349 --> 01:13:03.519
The little teardrops.
01:13:03.819 --> 01:13:04.748
Sure, sure.
01:13:04.988 --> 01:13:06.368
Not the Post Malone
01:13:06.368 --> 01:13:07.208
tour bus.
01:13:07.269 --> 01:13:07.538
No.
01:13:07.538 --> 01:13:08.109
That he's taking
01:13:08.109 --> 01:13:08.948
it with the pop outs.
01:13:08.948 --> 01:13:11.404
It has like fucking five pop outs and, and,
01:13:11.408 --> 01:13:13.609
and, and like a deck on the top and,
01:13:13.609 --> 01:13:15.099
and the star link going on.
01:13:15.099 --> 01:13:18.323
You're like, dude, this is not the time or the place.
01:13:18.323 --> 01:13:19.208
Go to a resort.
01:13:19.208 --> 01:13:21.878
There's plenty of places that are built just for you.
01:13:21.939 --> 01:13:22.149
Yeah.
01:13:22.149 --> 01:13:25.149
Not in, in the boonie.
01:13:25.328 --> 01:13:29.769
And people fuck up their trailers doing that or tumble in.
01:13:30.128 --> 01:13:31.809
I know this isn't just Idaho.
01:13:31.988 --> 01:13:38.529
I can't tell you how many of these types of roads that are mountain on one side sheer drop off on the other
01:13:38.948 --> 01:13:39.429
sheer,
01:13:40.208 --> 01:13:42.038
you're, you're tumbling and it, there's
01:13:42.038 --> 01:13:42.724
no barriers either.
01:13:43.628 --> 01:13:44.498
Guardrails.
01:13:44.559 --> 01:13:45.519
We don't know her.
01:13:45.609 --> 01:13:46.149
Mm-hmm.
01:13:46.389 --> 01:13:54.009
No, it's'cause it's a trail that's made for four wheelers with a four foot wheel base.
01:13:54.009 --> 01:13:55.958
And they're like, I can take it, I can do it.
01:13:56.319 --> 01:13:57.279
No you can't.
01:13:57.548 --> 01:13:58.868
Even up at Hazard Creek,
01:13:59.738 --> 01:14:02.139
we have went up there and um,
01:14:02.349 --> 01:14:03.729
I saw some vehicles
01:14:04.328 --> 01:14:11.019
and I'm like, we stop and park in a place where it's still, I mean it's, we're in a big truck.
01:14:11.679 --> 01:14:16.208
We'll pull our, our four wheeler up there and we'll get off.
01:14:16.208 --> 01:14:18.578
'cause we're like, this is really no more truck.
01:14:18.578 --> 01:14:18.588
Right.
01:14:18.764 --> 01:14:19.113
Truck.
01:14:19.179 --> 01:14:19.868
We should really truck.
01:14:20.109 --> 01:14:21.908
We should really just take the four wheeler.
01:14:22.689 --> 01:14:25.208
And we go up there and there's fucking trucks up there.
01:14:25.208 --> 01:14:26.319
I, I told Jared, I said,
01:14:26.319 --> 01:14:27.729
where there's like a big ass Escalade.
01:14:28.298 --> 01:14:28.569
Yeah.
01:14:28.628 --> 01:14:28.958
I'm like,
01:14:28.958 --> 01:14:30.189
big body bitch.
01:14:30.969 --> 01:14:37.929
I'm like, uh, just so you know, I would not, I would walk before I drove in the truck on these hills with you.
01:14:38.588 --> 01:14:40.088
And he is like, no, same.
01:14:40.208 --> 01:14:41.288
That's why we're on a four-wheeler.
01:14:41.349 --> 01:14:45.069
Yeah, we're not doing that because it's not appropriate anyway,
01:14:45.189 --> 01:14:46.029
so not
01:14:46.029 --> 01:14:48.099
driving for conditions.
01:14:49.118 --> 01:14:50.378
Hairpin turn.
01:14:50.828 --> 01:14:51.639
Hello.
01:14:52.359 --> 01:14:56.019
In a tour bus, it cannot make a hairpin turn.
01:14:56.019 --> 01:15:00.969
It's not like one of the buses you see in a downtown area that has the accordion fold.
01:15:01.179 --> 01:15:02.078
You don't have that.
01:15:02.229 --> 01:15:02.529
No,
01:15:02.618 --> 01:15:03.939
you're not making that turn.
01:15:04.208 --> 01:15:11.288
And also you can get on for particular Hazard Creek, when you go up there far enough, there are literal boulders
01:15:11.378 --> 01:15:12.099
in the road.
01:15:12.099 --> 01:15:12.488
In the road.
01:15:12.488 --> 01:15:13.929
They're sticking up like two feet.
01:15:14.378 --> 01:15:15.788
I am not tearing.
01:15:15.819 --> 01:15:17.168
No, you can go around them.
01:15:17.168 --> 01:15:19.809
Your shocks do not have the capacity for that.
01:15:19.868 --> 01:15:21.698
You're gonna rip off your oil pan,
01:15:22.599 --> 01:15:25.298
you're going to dislodge your entire axle.
01:15:25.509 --> 01:15:27.038
Like I actually, there's been idiots that done that.
01:15:27.099 --> 01:15:30.128
Anyways, so Deputy Reman, I
01:15:30.128 --> 01:15:31.538
digress, but yes,
01:15:31.538 --> 01:15:31.628
yes.
01:15:31.628 --> 01:15:33.158
It was like, uh.
01:15:34.014 --> 01:15:34.404
They should.
01:15:34.404 --> 01:15:35.033
She shouldn't have be.
01:15:35.033 --> 01:15:36.654
Sally was driving crazy.
01:15:36.654 --> 01:15:42.894
This 24 foot motor home had no business being here, and I found it kind of hot, so I went to talk to her.
01:15:43.283 --> 01:15:45.564
Meanwhile, we just found a dead body up the road
01:15:45.804 --> 01:15:47.753
and she said She's just having a coke,
01:15:47.904 --> 01:15:49.283
just all soda on parch.
01:15:49.314 --> 01:15:49.793
That's one does.
01:15:50.184 --> 01:15:51.774
You can't drive and drink a soda.
01:15:51.804 --> 01:15:52.913
What the fuck is wrong with
01:15:52.913 --> 01:15:53.003
you?
01:15:53.003 --> 01:15:53.213
Whoops.
01:15:53.213 --> 01:15:58.854
He ended up in a ditch, Sally,
01:15:59.274 --> 01:16:03.444
he testified that after he returned to Highway 16, he waited
01:16:05.184 --> 01:16:08.363
outta curiosity, is she gonna get outta here or what?
01:16:09.474 --> 01:16:10.253
Never came.
01:16:11.663 --> 01:16:27.444
I feel, I still feel she was driving in circles, possibly crack headedly or possibly panicking or either trying to find a place to put the body or trying to find a place to maybe hide and build a better alibi of.
01:16:27.444 --> 01:16:28.734
I've been here for two weeks.
01:16:28.734 --> 01:16:30.234
She is fucking up her alibi.
01:16:30.234 --> 01:16:30.533
Yeah,
01:16:30.863 --> 01:16:31.404
hard.
01:16:32.663 --> 01:16:34.344
Yeah, she's fallen over that alibi.
01:16:34.373 --> 01:16:34.554
Mm-hmm.
01:16:35.904 --> 01:16:39.054
So, uh, Marlene was sober, testified
01:16:39.083 --> 01:16:39.173
mm-hmm.
01:16:39.444 --> 01:16:46.194
That the day before the body was found, she encountered the motor home, stuck in a ditch near the same area.
01:16:46.703 --> 01:16:47.934
Why are you hanging out?
01:16:47.934 --> 01:16:49.043
She's not, she's not getting it.
01:16:49.644 --> 01:16:58.373
She identified the driver as Sally needs, but said the woman told her that her name was Karen and that she and her husband had taken separate vacations.
01:17:00.113 --> 01:17:00.953
That's not normal.
01:17:00.953 --> 01:17:03.743
Now that was especially not normal then.
01:17:05.363 --> 01:17:08.814
Wouldn't that just cause you more suspicion than anything?
01:17:10.073 --> 01:17:11.003
Hi, I am in a ditch.
01:17:11.003 --> 01:17:15.054
Me and my husband are on separate vacations, so isn't here.
01:17:16.613 --> 01:17:16.913
Okay.
01:17:16.913 --> 01:17:17.453
Thanks for,
01:17:17.484 --> 01:17:20.934
you could just say, I was taking the RV out by myself.
01:17:21.354 --> 01:17:24.533
He couldn't, his work got crazy at the last minute.
01:17:24.533 --> 01:17:26.304
He couldn't come and I decided to try to.
01:17:27.128 --> 01:17:27.939
We're, we're gonna
01:17:27.939 --> 01:17:30.849
meet our friends and so I'm gonna go ahead and go.
01:17:31.029 --> 01:17:31.448
Mm-hmm.
01:17:31.838 --> 01:17:32.078
So
01:17:32.078 --> 01:17:33.458
many better excuses.
01:17:33.668 --> 01:17:35.319
That's just so suspicious.
01:17:35.889 --> 01:17:44.319
Well, I'm assuming back in the seventies like that, you know, they're like, where's your husband miss?
01:17:44.319 --> 01:17:47.618
You shouldn't be driving this instead of bad bossing it.
01:17:47.623 --> 01:17:47.734
Mm-hmm.
01:17:47.814 --> 01:17:50.078
And being like, no, this is my vehicle.
01:17:50.078 --> 01:17:52.988
She's like, oh, well, silly me.
01:17:54.548 --> 01:17:59.019
And I love it, like the, the memes and stuff of like girls hitting curbs and being like,
01:17:59.078 --> 01:18:00.399
oh, just a girly pop day.
01:18:01.929 --> 01:18:07.118
Just dis dislodged my whole alignment because listen, in my younger years I did that.
01:18:07.779 --> 01:18:14.559
I consider myself a very good driver now, but I had a few abrupt meetings with a curb.
01:18:15.158 --> 01:18:17.139
I just did that a few fucking weeks ago.
01:18:17.139 --> 01:18:18.009
God dammit.
01:18:18.279 --> 01:18:18.458
No.
01:18:18.458 --> 01:18:20.984
And you're just like, well, still, it's all fairness.
01:18:21.123 --> 01:18:22.118
Is she still running?
01:18:22.269 --> 01:18:23.288
Am I still driving?
01:18:23.469 --> 01:18:23.948
Yes,
01:18:23.979 --> 01:18:24.729
we're moving on.
01:18:25.748 --> 01:18:34.779
In all fairness, it was one of those weird short curbs that they had back in the, like a landscaping curb in a parking lot of a restaurant.
01:18:34.779 --> 01:18:34.809
Mm.
01:18:34.868 --> 01:18:35.109
Yep.
01:18:35.109 --> 01:18:36.578
What, why are they doing that?
01:18:36.578 --> 01:18:36.998
Stop?
01:18:38.828 --> 01:18:42.458
And I didn't even, it was kind of a tight thing Anyways.
01:18:42.729 --> 01:18:43.269
Car's fine.
01:18:43.269 --> 01:18:43.689
I'm fine.
01:18:43.689 --> 01:18:44.469
It's a girly thing.
01:18:45.189 --> 01:18:46.628
You hit a curb sometimes.
01:18:47.078 --> 01:18:47.828
I was pissed.
01:18:47.979 --> 01:18:49.059
I actually drove over the front.
01:18:49.059 --> 01:18:50.738
We're not doing vehicular manslaughter.
01:18:50.798 --> 01:18:52.269
We hit a curb every once in a while.
01:18:52.328 --> 01:18:52.538
Okay.
01:18:52.538 --> 01:18:58.238
And I'm surely not driving a 20 foot motor home into a ditch, drinking my coke,
01:18:59.469 --> 01:19:01.118
drinking my coke.
01:19:02.498 --> 01:19:03.609
Something was happening here.
01:19:04.328 --> 01:19:10.719
Uh, so Westover testified that her husband pulled a motor home from the ditch with a tractor, and that needs drove away.
01:19:11.559 --> 01:19:16.118
Look, if that body was in the, I bet she, look,
01:19:16.328 --> 01:19:17.918
I'd be shitting bricks
01:19:18.158 --> 01:19:27.998
and you know what a lot of, and I am one of these people, if I am, if I get my vehicle stuck, I will let a perfect stranger get into my car because
01:19:27.998 --> 01:19:28.899
you can get me out
01:19:29.168 --> 01:19:33.488
if look, he probably was not driving a tractor, right?
01:19:33.548 --> 01:19:33.788
No.
01:19:33.788 --> 01:19:42.609
Miss had to go home and get her husband or they were driving together and had to go get, you know, but a, a lot of people just try to uns
01:19:43.088 --> 01:19:43.809
unstick it
01:19:43.868 --> 01:19:44.559
first.
01:19:44.918 --> 01:19:48.939
So, hey, let me have a hand on that because it does matter how you twist.
01:19:48.969 --> 01:19:49.059
Mm-hmm.
01:19:49.298 --> 01:19:49.569
And turn
01:19:49.569 --> 01:19:50.859
or rock the vehicle.
01:19:50.859 --> 01:19:51.158
Right.
01:19:52.088 --> 01:19:57.158
So before I travel a couple miles and go get my tractor, which is gonna go five miles an hour to get up here.
01:19:57.189 --> 01:19:57.578
Yeah.
01:19:57.939 --> 01:19:58.958
Let me give it a stab.
01:19:59.019 --> 01:20:03.189
Let me see if I can get this pretty, pretty 24 foot brand new motor home.
01:20:03.219 --> 01:20:04.958
And there's a good chance
01:20:05.019 --> 01:20:05.769
they coulda
01:20:06.849 --> 01:20:09.038
and that there's also maybe.
01:20:09.113 --> 01:20:12.564
A body in that teeny tiny little tub.
01:20:12.743 --> 01:20:13.043
Yeah.
01:20:14.604 --> 01:20:14.873
Eek.
01:20:15.384 --> 01:20:16.224
Oh, I wanna know.
01:20:16.404 --> 01:20:18.083
And I, we don't, we won't know.
01:20:18.654 --> 01:20:19.314
We'll never know.
01:20:19.373 --> 01:20:20.243
This is all, yeah.
01:20:21.863 --> 01:20:28.703
Uh, Westover said that that motor home later turned onto a dirt, dirt road leading toward the area where the body was found.
01:20:28.703 --> 01:20:35.694
So she watched her, her husband pulled, pulled, Sally needs out, and then she just cruised on towards Cru,
01:20:35.694 --> 01:20:36.684
like she was in circles
01:20:37.134 --> 01:20:39.144
around the crime scene, the panic scene that could have been the panic.
01:20:39.144 --> 01:20:40.043
The body in the car gotta
01:20:40.043 --> 01:20:40.854
find somewhere.
01:20:41.724 --> 01:20:44.154
And she might've been just hacking at a time, and
01:20:44.154 --> 01:20:49.554
it sounds like she gave up and was like, I gotta get, I gotta put this somewhere.
01:20:49.554 --> 01:20:50.484
Here's a door.
01:20:52.014 --> 01:20:54.743
The state introduced physical evidence from the motor home.
01:20:55.224 --> 01:21:04.043
A criminologist testified blood found on the metal step of the vehicle, matched blood found on the torso, and the sheet in which it was wrapped.
01:21:04.764 --> 01:21:08.123
He said, additional blood was found on a towel and a shower curtain.
01:21:08.559 --> 01:21:12.219
You nailed it, sis, and appeared to have been diluted with water.
01:21:12.279 --> 01:21:14.168
Little cleanup, cleanup,
01:21:14.349 --> 01:21:16.118
everybody, everywhere.
01:21:16.748 --> 01:21:17.649
Oh my gosh.
01:21:18.279 --> 01:21:27.969
Under cross-examination, the expert acknowledged that a percentage of the population shared the same blood type and enzyme markers because this is the seventies and we don't have DNA.
01:21:28.179 --> 01:21:28.269
Mm-hmm.
01:21:28.569 --> 01:21:32.588
So now it couldn't be anyone, but it could be this specific group of people.
01:21:33.158 --> 01:21:34.418
It's a KY dink.
01:21:34.418 --> 01:21:35.889
It can't be proven.
01:21:35.918 --> 01:21:43.689
And it's, again, 17 coincidences don't happen when someone's murdered.
01:21:43.748 --> 01:21:47.948
It just, it, it listen and prove me wrong.
01:21:48.009 --> 01:21:54.878
Maybe there's a story out there where it's like, gosh, this poor guy, there was all these clunky dinks that weren't related.
01:21:55.208 --> 01:21:55.689
I don't know.
01:21:55.988 --> 01:22:02.349
But no, a circumstantial case together, I think is solid
01:22:03.668 --> 01:22:04.809
matches near the body.
01:22:04.809 --> 01:22:06.009
Were also examined.
01:22:06.939 --> 01:22:20.738
Expert testimony indicated that the size and composition of the matches were consistent with matches found in the motor home and that they had appeared to have been manufactured at the same time or at the same plant.
01:22:22.029 --> 01:22:30.918
Here were defense in, defense counsel questioned the significance of that evidence, noting the large number of matches produced by manufacturers.
01:22:31.099 --> 01:22:33.349
Anyone can be lighting matches anywhere.
01:22:34.248 --> 01:22:39.708
By the way, Hey Sally, fucking amateur with the matches.
01:22:39.708 --> 01:22:39.769
Yeah.
01:22:40.099 --> 01:22:43.128
So I can barely let a candle sometimes with a match.
01:22:43.128 --> 01:22:43.189
Why
01:22:44.394 --> 01:22:45.229
are they there?
01:22:45.288 --> 01:22:45.769
Yeah.
01:22:46.279 --> 01:22:48.634
Burnt body plus matchsticks at the, the
01:22:48.634 --> 01:22:48.713
scene.
01:22:48.713 --> 01:22:49.154
Do you know what I heard?
01:22:49.158 --> 01:22:51.319
That would be to burn a body with matchsticks.
01:22:51.319 --> 01:22:51.948
That's what I'm saying.
01:22:52.248 --> 01:22:55.128
That's just do you gotta lie, you got a zippo.
01:22:55.158 --> 01:22:58.639
No, and it's, especially back then, there'd be no way to know how.
01:22:59.673 --> 01:23:02.134
Incredibly difficult it is to do this.
01:23:02.224 --> 01:23:03.003
You just think,
01:23:03.423 --> 01:23:04.743
I'm just throwing a little gas on here.
01:23:04.743 --> 01:23:05.913
Just like cooking a steak.
01:23:05.974 --> 01:23:06.154
Yeah.
01:23:06.184 --> 01:23:08.673
I cooked a steak too long once and it became cremated.
01:23:09.514 --> 01:23:10.234
What's a body?
01:23:11.344 --> 01:23:12.963
A lot different.
01:23:12.963 --> 01:23:13.113
A
01:23:13.113 --> 01:23:13.503
lot.
01:23:13.503 --> 01:23:14.373
A lot.
01:23:15.963 --> 01:23:36.453
As a state continued presenting witnesses, prosecutors said the evidence would show a pattern of behavior and movements tying needs to the area where her husband's body was found and would establish that the torso discovered in the foothills was that of Ronald needs medical experts return to the question of cause of death and identification.
01:23:37.354 --> 01:23:37.713
Dr.
01:23:37.713 --> 01:23:42.514
Delbert testified that the six stab wounds did not cause death.
01:23:45.033 --> 01:23:54.484
Um, and he said that UNH fly eggs found on the body indicated that the remains had been outdoors for about six to 14 hours.
01:23:55.743 --> 01:23:58.623
So not days, which is when he died,
01:23:58.713 --> 01:23:59.073
right?
01:23:59.884 --> 01:24:05.854
But that the death had occurred several days earlier, uh, due to decomposition.
01:24:05.854 --> 01:24:08.554
He said he could not examine the lungs for signs of asthma.
01:24:08.823 --> 01:24:11.404
A condition Ronald needs was known to have.
01:24:11.884 --> 01:24:12.663
They tried,
01:24:12.844 --> 01:24:13.354
they did try.
01:24:13.354 --> 01:24:18.003
Remember we were talking about some type of thing they could verify with a doctor that sucks.
01:24:18.963 --> 01:24:19.323
Dr.
01:24:19.323 --> 01:24:26.373
Clyde snow and anthropologist specializing and skeletal identification testified that the analysis is.
01:24:26.899 --> 01:24:36.349
Analysis of the bones indicated the victim was a white male, uh, between 30 and 36 years old, which is again consistent.
01:24:36.408 --> 01:24:36.529
Mm-hmm.
01:24:36.828 --> 01:24:37.698
With Ronald means.
01:24:39.769 --> 01:24:44.118
The state also presented testimony regarding injuries to the victim's feet.
01:24:44.809 --> 01:24:56.359
A pathologist testified that examination of the torso's big toes revealed scarring on the bottoms of both with more pronounced scarring on the left.
01:24:57.019 --> 01:25:13.698
Ronald's needs former wife testified that he had scars on both big toes, including a childhood injury to the left toe that damaged the tendon and restricted movement, and a later injury to the right toe that required medical treatment.
01:25:14.658 --> 01:25:19.729
A physician testified that he had treated Ronald needs for a laceration to his right foot in 1969,
01:25:20.748 --> 01:25:22.759
and this is the best you can hope for.
01:25:22.849 --> 01:25:23.029
Yeah.
01:25:23.029 --> 01:25:25.788
At the time is some type of documented thing.
01:25:26.194 --> 01:25:31.594
To show a scar or a disfigurement or a fracture line, something
01:25:32.764 --> 01:25:36.904
so we're not talking tattoos all over the body, but there is something.
01:25:37.054 --> 01:25:39.213
Maybe just break each one of your fingers.
01:25:40.234 --> 01:25:40.833
Just kidding.
01:25:40.984 --> 01:25:43.234
Tattoos and QR codes sound way better.
01:25:43.293 --> 01:25:43.623
Yeah.
01:25:43.654 --> 01:25:43.953
Yeah.
01:25:44.314 --> 01:25:48.003
I just wanna hairline fracture on each one of my fingers.
01:25:48.304 --> 01:25:51.573
Forearms, upper arms, calves.
01:25:52.054 --> 01:25:54.634
Just a, just a tiny hairline fracture on each.
01:25:54.634 --> 01:25:56.163
That can be x-rayed.
01:25:56.163 --> 01:25:56.404
And
01:25:56.583 --> 01:25:59.884
can you just put a screw inside of a bone for identifying marker.
01:25:59.884 --> 01:26:00.003
Gimme
01:26:00.003 --> 01:26:01.323
17 different screws.
01:26:01.384 --> 01:26:01.953
Let's do that.
01:26:03.904 --> 01:26:07.804
Testimony then addressed events leading up to Ronald's disappearance.
01:26:07.923 --> 01:26:19.054
A witness testified that in mid-June of 1976, he observed an argument at the couple's residence in peed in which Sally needs emerged from the house throwing bottles.
01:26:19.444 --> 01:26:24.333
They haven't been barely married and then returned with a butcher knife in each hand.
01:26:24.783 --> 01:26:25.234
Two
01:26:25.234 --> 01:26:26.253
butcher knives,
01:26:26.283 --> 01:26:32.014
making motions as if she were going to stab her husband, saying, I'm going to get you
01:26:33.779 --> 01:26:33.998
re
01:26:35.734 --> 01:26:38.434
the witness said Ronald Russell, the knives away.
01:26:38.463 --> 01:26:43.083
And that Sally needs later threw gasoline on him, getting some in his eyes.
01:26:43.713 --> 01:26:49.293
So let's go back to the part where the stabbing in the stomach, he was able to wrestle two butcher knives from her.
01:26:49.413 --> 01:26:52.413
And I'm not wrestling a knife from nobody.
01:26:52.474 --> 01:26:52.774
Right.
01:26:52.774 --> 01:26:54.798
So he had to be and
01:26:54.798 --> 01:26:55.198
he did that.
01:26:55.828 --> 01:26:56.118
Yeah.
01:26:56.179 --> 01:26:56.399
So
01:26:56.913 --> 01:26:57.783
he had to be sleeping.
01:26:57.788 --> 01:26:58.158
Mm-hmm.
01:26:58.378 --> 01:26:58.599
Or
01:26:58.599 --> 01:27:01.264
where the sleeping pills come from is now what I am thinking.
01:27:01.293 --> 01:27:01.833
Yeah.
01:27:02.613 --> 01:27:04.984
Did you crush them up and drop him in a coke?
01:27:05.043 --> 01:27:06.094
In a little cocktail?
01:27:07.594 --> 01:27:15.123
Another witness testified about a week later, she overheard Sally say, if I can't have him, nobody will have him.
01:27:15.123 --> 01:27:17.644
I will kill him First quotes.
01:27:19.203 --> 01:27:19.713
Uh oh.
01:27:21.453 --> 01:27:21.873
Okay.
01:27:22.804 --> 01:27:25.293
The defense presented limited testimony.
01:27:26.163 --> 01:27:30.724
I'm focused on challenging the identity of the remains and the location of the crime.
01:27:30.724 --> 01:27:30.814
They're
01:27:30.814 --> 01:27:31.894
still holding onto that.
01:27:32.043 --> 01:27:33.094
Let it go, bro.
01:27:33.094 --> 01:27:33.963
We don't know who it is.
01:27:33.993 --> 01:27:36.604
Did you not see all of the experts?
01:27:37.024 --> 01:27:39.154
Yeah, they exported for sure.
01:27:39.423 --> 01:27:43.953
Defense counsel emphasized that the head and arms hadn't been recovered.
01:27:44.014 --> 01:27:45.634
We know this and that.
01:27:45.634 --> 01:27:54.783
Some measurements of the torso did not precisely match Ronald's needs height, and there was no direct evidence showing where the killing occurred.
01:27:56.884 --> 01:27:57.453
Who.
01:27:58.173 --> 01:28:05.253
In the world has a direct measurement of all of the different measurements.
01:28:05.884 --> 01:28:06.304
The torso precise.
01:28:06.538 --> 01:28:09.753
I'm not talking like a chest, waist, hips measurement.
01:28:10.054 --> 01:28:13.533
I'm talking how long from the nipple to the belly button.
01:28:13.594 --> 01:28:13.713
Yeah.
01:28:13.743 --> 01:28:15.423
How long from the armpit to the nip?
01:28:16.234 --> 01:28:16.474
Who?
01:28:16.474 --> 01:28:16.684
How
01:28:16.684 --> 01:28:18.304
long is his kneecaps?
01:28:18.333 --> 01:28:24.694
Unless you are an athlete or an actor, actress, that's like going for a wax mold.
01:28:27.394 --> 01:28:30.934
Well, the nipple to collarbone ratio didn't seem to be exact.
01:28:31.173 --> 01:28:32.764
Nobody has that, bro.
01:28:32.764 --> 01:28:33.213
Shut up.
01:28:36.814 --> 01:28:45.213
The defense argued that the circumstantial evidence left reasonable doubt as to whether the torso was Ronald needs and whether the crime had been committed in Ada County.
01:28:45.363 --> 01:28:46.203
Could be anyone.
01:28:46.264 --> 01:28:47.644
This is another big thing.
01:28:47.823 --> 01:28:48.904
Oh, the county.
01:28:49.594 --> 01:28:51.184
Ooh, I didn't think about that.
01:28:52.264 --> 01:28:53.134
The jurisdiction?
01:28:53.134 --> 01:28:53.854
Mm-hmm.
01:28:53.859 --> 01:28:54.038
Okay.
01:28:55.038 --> 01:28:59.328
After four days of testimony, the state and defense presented closing arguments.
01:29:00.139 --> 01:29:11.088
Prosecutor Leroy told the jury the evidence taken together showed that the torso found in the foothills was Ronald needs, and that Sally needs was responsible for his death.
01:29:11.929 --> 01:29:21.439
Defense attorney Ellison Matthews argued that the state's case relied on speculation and that reasonable doubt remained regarding both identity and venue.
01:29:21.559 --> 01:29:22.099
And that's his job.
01:29:22.099 --> 01:29:23.868
He's gonna die on this fucking hill.
01:29:23.929 --> 01:29:24.109
Yeah,
01:29:24.408 --> 01:29:25.069
and you know what?
01:29:25.069 --> 01:29:26.448
He's not what?
01:29:26.448 --> 01:29:27.378
It's already been settled.
01:29:27.439 --> 01:29:27.618
Yeah.
01:29:28.609 --> 01:29:31.368
The jury began deliberations Thursday evening.
01:29:31.908 --> 01:29:38.359
By the end of the night, no verdict had been reached and the jurors were instructed to return the following morning to continue their deliberations.
01:29:39.168 --> 01:29:51.649
Jurors had been instructed to consider only whether the state had proven the headless armless torso found in the Boise foothills was Ronald Kns, and that his death was at the result of a homicide.
01:29:52.069 --> 01:29:55.279
And that the crime had been committed in Ada County by his wife.
01:29:56.569 --> 01:29:58.969
And you know, the defense has been dying on that hill.
01:29:59.029 --> 01:30:01.819
They should have leaned more into what county was it?
01:30:01.819 --> 01:30:05.899
Because nobody knows where this actually happened.
01:30:06.048 --> 01:30:09.649
If the defense should have leaned more on that than who's the body, in my opinion.
01:30:10.578 --> 01:30:14.689
They returned to the, the jury returned to the courtroom Friday afternoon to deliver their verdict.
01:30:16.458 --> 01:30:17.538
The courtroom was failed.
01:30:17.538 --> 01:30:19.519
As the clerk prepared to read the verdict.
01:30:19.639 --> 01:30:22.458
Sally needs sat quietly at the defense table.
01:30:23.208 --> 01:30:28.069
Her hands trembling slightly as the jury foreman handed the verdict form to the to the clerk.
01:30:28.788 --> 01:30:32.958
The clerk read the verdict aloud, finding Sally needs guilty of first degree murder.
01:30:33.769 --> 01:30:38.088
A gasp from spectators seated in the courtroom as the words were spoken.
01:30:38.838 --> 01:30:40.099
A gasp who?
01:30:40.849 --> 01:30:42.469
Who gasped a gasp?
01:30:42.769 --> 01:30:43.698
I don't know.
01:30:44.509 --> 01:30:46.099
Uh, I don't know.
01:30:46.338 --> 01:30:49.519
It didn't say whether, and sometimes it does say my research,
01:30:49.548 --> 01:30:51.769
like if it's the family or the mom or whatever.
01:30:52.729 --> 01:30:52.788
Yeah.
01:30:52.788 --> 01:30:56.059
Nead shook her head slowly and then slumped back in her chair.
01:30:57.198 --> 01:30:58.908
This is such a surprise to me.
01:30:59.328 --> 01:31:05.658
Uh, I just, deputies moved to assist her as she fainted while being taken from the current room toward herself.
01:31:06.738 --> 01:31:07.248
Hmm.
01:31:07.939 --> 01:31:09.918
First degree says that's bad.
01:31:10.668 --> 01:31:11.628
Uh, she was later.
01:31:11.658 --> 01:31:15.948
This isn't a 10 year sentence where you're getting furloughs and shit.
01:31:17.328 --> 01:31:18.378
This is the hard time.
01:31:19.338 --> 01:31:19.904
Uh, yeah.
01:31:20.059 --> 01:31:23.479
She was later revived and taken to the Ada County Jail where she was
01:31:23.748 --> 01:31:24.109
revived.
01:31:24.288 --> 01:31:24.649
Yeah.
01:31:25.248 --> 01:31:29.298
Where she was held with bail, pending sentencing without bail, pending sentencing.
01:31:29.448 --> 01:31:32.088
Because we have seen motherfuckers get out on bail.
01:31:32.149 --> 01:31:32.628
Yes.
01:31:32.628 --> 01:31:34.548
When they're per, when they're guilty.
01:31:35.644 --> 01:31:36.514
Should never happen,
01:31:37.024 --> 01:31:37.564
ever.
01:31:37.713 --> 01:31:41.134
You have nothing to lose, especially with this kind of a sentence,
01:31:41.224 --> 01:31:42.634
you know exactly what's coming to
01:31:42.634 --> 01:31:42.724
you.
01:31:42.724 --> 01:31:42.963
Yeah.
01:31:43.564 --> 01:31:46.413
Jurors were individually pulled at the request of the court.
01:31:47.104 --> 01:31:47.734
Um,
01:31:47.884 --> 01:31:48.184
normal.
01:31:48.184 --> 01:31:49.323
Every jury responded.
01:31:49.323 --> 01:31:50.104
Yes.
01:31:51.423 --> 01:32:01.684
Judge Durey uh, addressed the courtroom after the polling, noting that because Idaho's mandatory death penalty statute had been ruled unconstitutional.
01:32:01.863 --> 01:32:03.724
This must have been right at that time
01:32:03.724 --> 01:32:04.863
in the juicy spot.
01:32:04.923 --> 01:32:05.253
Yeah.
01:32:05.253 --> 01:32:05.264
Yeah.
01:32:05.463 --> 01:32:09.304
The court would determine the appropriate sentence under other provisions of state law.
01:32:09.783 --> 01:32:10.644
It's like, Hey, hey, hey.
01:32:10.644 --> 01:32:13.654
We got some weird stuff happening, so we're not gonna go that direction.
01:32:13.833 --> 01:32:14.104
Yeah.
01:32:14.493 --> 01:32:16.113
And he's like, let's not even fuck with that.
01:32:16.474 --> 01:32:23.734
Sensing was scheduled for June 3rd, nearly a year after the body had been found outside the courtroom.
01:32:24.708 --> 01:32:25.969
Dumb defense attorney.
01:32:26.298 --> 01:32:27.469
Sorry, I shouldn't say that.
01:32:28.219 --> 01:32:30.078
He was doing That's what you have to do.
01:32:30.469 --> 01:32:33.979
You have to defense, but I just feel like he didn't pick his battles correctly.
01:32:33.979 --> 01:32:34.338
No.
01:32:34.788 --> 01:32:40.458
Uh, Matthew said, I don't think it was justified in view of the evidence.
01:32:41.298 --> 01:32:44.298
When asked whether he believed, he established reasonable doubt.
01:32:44.298 --> 01:32:48.109
He said, quote, I thought I had it, but obviously I didn't.
01:32:48.469 --> 01:32:48.859
That's what I'm
01:32:48.859 --> 01:32:48.979
saying.
01:32:48.979 --> 01:32:51.798
That's more generous than most defense attorneys will do.
01:32:51.798 --> 01:33:08.118
Sometimes you hear these defense attorneys that, like on Dateline and stuff, they're asked a very, uh, they're asked a very reasonable question and their, their answer is just, do we have the same eyes?
01:33:08.149 --> 01:33:09.469
Like, do we have the same ears?
01:33:09.469 --> 01:33:15.618
Like you can still defend yourself and your client without being like, no, that was the perfect thing to say.
01:33:17.359 --> 01:33:25.009
Ada County prosecutor David Leroy said after the verdict quote, I'd like to thank the jury for their careful consideration of a complicated set of facts,
01:33:25.368 --> 01:33:26.958
especially then It sure was.
01:33:27.618 --> 01:33:32.868
But he did say that Matthew did a very capable job of representing his client.
01:33:33.378 --> 01:33:43.488
This is almost like after teams win the Super Bowl and even the loser or the winner is like my opponent gotta give props even if they maybe had a terrible showing.
01:33:44.179 --> 01:33:48.139
I'm not a sportsy person, but I know that that happens when, and it's nice, it's courteous.
01:33:48.139 --> 01:33:48.198
Yeah.
01:33:48.529 --> 01:33:49.488
He's being courteous.
01:33:49.493 --> 01:33:49.703
Mm-hmm.
01:33:49.783 --> 01:33:51.679
Not being like that dumb ass.
01:33:51.708 --> 01:33:56.238
He went home, was like, fuck yeah, babe, I nailed that motherfucker to the wall.
01:33:56.538 --> 01:33:57.738
That dip shit.
01:33:57.738 --> 01:34:00.529
That's defense was horrible.
01:34:00.529 --> 01:34:04.189
He's like, yeah, he presented a lot of intriguing facts.
01:34:04.189 --> 01:34:05.059
Surely he did
01:34:05.328 --> 01:34:06.439
way to be profesh.
01:34:07.069 --> 01:34:09.139
Yeah, I, I get the vibes here.
01:34:11.179 --> 01:34:29.899
After the jury returned its guilty verdict, Sally needs was taken from the courtroom and held in that ADA County jail while the court prepared for sentencing fourth District Judge Dirt, she delayed the initial sentencing date telling attorneys he had not yet completed his review of the pre-sentence investigation report.
01:34:31.038 --> 01:34:34.788
He's being extra careful given the sentencing weirdness.
01:34:34.788 --> 01:34:34.878
Mm-hmm.
01:34:35.413 --> 01:34:35.774
I bet.
01:34:36.033 --> 01:34:37.158
Uh, I think so.
01:34:37.793 --> 01:34:41.958
Uh, the report, which includes needs criminal history.
01:34:41.958 --> 01:34:42.048
Mm-hmm.
01:34:42.288 --> 01:34:49.878
Personal background and institutional record was described in court as lengthy'cause it was
01:34:50.118 --> 01:34:54.319
well, and not many people escape from prison twice
01:34:56.479 --> 01:34:57.769
and then kill, Ugh.
01:34:58.729 --> 01:34:59.118
Again.
01:34:59.599 --> 01:34:59.899
Yeah.
01:35:01.519 --> 01:35:09.078
Um, at the sentencing hearing, ADA County prosecutor David Leroy urged the court to impose the maximum penalty allowed under state law.
01:35:09.738 --> 01:35:13.639
Leroy said the killing of Ronald Des was deliberate and premeditated.
01:35:14.418 --> 01:35:14.509
Yep.
01:35:14.509 --> 01:35:17.298
I don't know if it was premeditated, but it definitely was deliberate.
01:35:17.958 --> 01:35:18.139
Yeah.
01:35:18.168 --> 01:35:20.599
Well, I guess she didn't plan it in weeks.
01:35:20.628 --> 01:35:22.009
She's like, here's some sleeping pills.
01:35:22.009 --> 01:35:23.658
Maybe that's still premeditation.
01:35:23.658 --> 01:35:23.748
Mm-hmm.
01:35:23.748 --> 01:35:24.529
I need to keep that in mind.
01:35:24.529 --> 01:35:24.679
I'll get
01:35:24.679 --> 01:35:24.828
ya.
01:35:24.828 --> 01:35:24.889
I'm
01:35:25.668 --> 01:35:30.588
citing the matter in which the body had been mutilated and the steps taken to conceal its identity.
01:35:30.918 --> 01:35:33.859
Not that good, but still steps were taken.
01:35:33.979 --> 01:35:34.849
Good old door.
01:35:35.118 --> 01:35:42.319
Uh, he told the court the homicide was a horrible one and argued that a life sentence was necessary to protect the public.
01:35:43.219 --> 01:35:48.798
He also asked the court to recommend to the Idaho Commission of Pardons and Parole.
01:35:48.798 --> 01:35:50.779
That needs not be considered for early release.
01:35:51.618 --> 01:35:55.519
Citing her prior felony convictions and her history of escape.
01:35:55.548 --> 01:36:00.408
Yeah, she was early releasing herself, so maybe that shouldn't be an option here.
01:36:02.668 --> 01:36:16.168
a defense attorney Matthews argued that the court should impose a lesser sentence contending the case was built entirely on circumstantial evidence and that unresolved questions remained about the identity of the body and the location of the homicide.
01:36:17.248 --> 01:36:18.118
No sir.
01:36:18.149 --> 01:36:19.439
We have tow scars.
01:36:19.588 --> 01:36:22.229
Were you not in the courtroom when they talked about tow scars?
01:36:22.979 --> 01:36:23.248
I don't know.
01:36:23.849 --> 01:36:25.168
I don't have a bunch of tow scar.
01:36:25.198 --> 01:36:26.399
Do you have tow scar stuff?
01:36:26.399 --> 01:36:27.958
I don't think I have one tow scar.
01:36:27.988 --> 01:36:28.259
Okay.
01:36:28.259 --> 01:36:29.219
I had some ingrown.
01:36:29.338 --> 01:36:32.819
Maybe they could find that that was a thing for me when I was a kid.
01:36:33.298 --> 01:36:33.658
Right.
01:36:33.719 --> 01:36:35.128
But we're not scarring toes.
01:36:35.128 --> 01:36:35.248
I
01:36:35.248 --> 01:36:38.399
mean, no, I don't have scars on the bottom of my big toes.
01:36:38.819 --> 01:36:39.238
I feel like that's from
01:36:39.238 --> 01:36:40.798
stepping on a knife when you were a child?
01:36:40.889 --> 01:36:41.338
No.
01:36:41.429 --> 01:36:41.729
Okay.
01:36:42.328 --> 01:36:43.679
Just wanted to clear that up.
01:36:45.488 --> 01:36:49.359
Matthew said his client had lived much of her life in chaos.
01:36:50.634 --> 01:36:51.384
And here we go.
01:36:52.253 --> 01:36:55.463
She had been the victim of abuse beginning in childhood.
01:36:56.213 --> 01:37:04.583
also that she had struggled with alcohol and unstable relationships and that her past convictions were being overstated.
01:37:06.354 --> 01:37:07.163
I don't think so.
01:37:07.163 --> 01:37:08.003
Excuse me.
01:37:08.634 --> 01:37:16.703
I think they were being stated and she got off Again, if you, you're able to escape a sentence like that, someone's dead.
01:37:17.304 --> 01:37:18.984
That that bar owner's dead.
01:37:19.194 --> 01:37:19.493
Right.
01:37:19.493 --> 01:37:20.663
You didn't get murder one.
01:37:20.783 --> 01:37:22.043
You didn't get 10 years.
01:37:22.048 --> 01:37:22.149
You
01:37:22.149 --> 01:37:22.373
plea, you
01:37:22.373 --> 01:37:23.453
got to escape.
01:37:23.484 --> 01:37:25.194
You got plead to manslaughter.
01:37:25.644 --> 01:37:29.904
You escaped, lived your life and they said, oh, five more months and you're done.
01:37:29.908 --> 01:37:30.269
Mm-hmm.
01:37:31.974 --> 01:37:36.444
Start dotting your i's and crossing your fucking t's.
01:37:36.774 --> 01:37:39.474
Find a way to exist in society where
01:37:39.474 --> 01:37:40.613
without killing men.
01:37:41.844 --> 01:37:42.564
Thank you.
01:37:42.713 --> 01:37:42.863
Yeah.
01:37:43.793 --> 01:37:51.118
Matthews also argued that because the court had ruled Idaho's death penalty statute unconstitutional, this must have happened right in the sweet spot.
01:37:51.118 --> 01:37:51.319
Mm-hmm.
01:37:51.399 --> 01:37:51.599
It did.
01:37:51.698 --> 01:37:52.038
Oh yeah.
01:37:52.613 --> 01:37:56.394
The maximum lawful sentence for first degree murder should be limited.
01:37:57.054 --> 01:37:57.953
Why, sir?
01:37:58.344 --> 01:37:59.333
They're latching
01:37:59.333 --> 01:38:05.573
onto this because they know that the court is scared of fucking up because they have fucked up is what I feel.
01:38:05.814 --> 01:38:06.113
Yeah.
01:38:06.113 --> 01:38:06.684
He, he's like,
01:38:06.894 --> 01:38:09.354
but you can still give a life sentence.
01:38:09.804 --> 01:38:09.863
Yeah.
01:38:09.863 --> 01:38:11.394
That's not under review.
01:38:11.394 --> 01:38:12.238
I feel like try.
01:38:12.238 --> 01:38:12.503
I feel like he's trying
01:38:12.503 --> 01:38:13.194
to, yeah.
01:38:14.213 --> 01:38:15.444
When they, they gotta try.
01:38:16.583 --> 01:38:25.043
When given an opportunity to speak needs stood before the court and told Judge Dirt, she, I do contend my innocence.
01:38:25.823 --> 01:38:31.944
She says she believed she had not been allowed to present an adequate defense until the court quote.
01:38:31.974 --> 01:38:35.814
I feel I truly am the only one who knows the whole story.
01:38:35.844 --> 01:38:36.413
Yup.
01:38:36.774 --> 01:38:37.373
We agree
01:38:37.373 --> 01:38:37.974
alive.
01:38:37.974 --> 01:38:38.394
Sure.
01:38:38.394 --> 01:38:38.844
Yeah.
01:38:39.203 --> 01:38:47.154
Needs objected two portions of the pre-sentence report, including statements attributed to her in which she was said to have threatened her husband.
01:38:47.543 --> 01:38:56.634
She told the judge such remarks, did not reflect her pre, did not reflect premeditation, and said, I made a bad choice of men.
01:38:57.804 --> 01:39:19.283
Ma'am, I promise you that if Ronald needs was a horrible person, as you are suggesting that it would've been brought up by your defense attorney because right then he could try to justify
01:39:19.283 --> 01:39:20.243
something provable.
01:39:20.304 --> 01:39:20.484
Yeah.
01:39:20.484 --> 01:39:21.384
Ex-girlfriends,
01:39:21.444 --> 01:39:32.904
uh, I did not hear, I, I did not find that in any of my research and, you know, newspapers can be selective, but I didn't hear anything negative about Ronald needs nothing.
01:39:33.713 --> 01:39:35.663
So Nice try.
01:39:36.054 --> 01:39:36.833
Nice try.
01:39:37.703 --> 01:39:39.203
And she's gotta try, right?
01:39:39.863 --> 01:39:40.194
Mm-hmm.
01:39:41.873 --> 01:39:48.444
Judge rejected the defense arguments and said the jury's verdict was properly reached.
01:39:48.533 --> 01:39:48.623
Mm-hmm.
01:39:49.434 --> 01:39:55.703
He told the courtroom that imposing a lesser sentence would simply depreciate the seriousness
01:39:55.884 --> 01:39:56.304
Yeah.
01:39:56.304 --> 01:39:57.113
Of the offense.
01:39:57.113 --> 01:39:58.314
You're setting a precedent.
01:39:58.613 --> 01:40:04.554
The judge said the fatal wounds inflicted on Ronald's knees supported the jury's finding a premeditation.
01:40:05.453 --> 01:40:10.224
And that the evidence presented at trial was sufficient to sustain a conviction for first degree murder.
01:40:10.253 --> 01:40:11.304
He's like, no,
01:40:11.304 --> 01:40:12.099
no, you're done.
01:40:12.474 --> 01:40:13.073
You're done.
01:40:13.073 --> 01:40:18.899
Not only did you cut off arms and heads, but he was stabbed in the stomach and possibly shot decapitated,
01:40:18.904 --> 01:40:20.033
shot,
01:40:20.243 --> 01:40:21.173
slit his throat.
01:40:21.173 --> 01:40:23.378
You did something up there they would've been able to carry
01:40:23.719 --> 01:40:26.394
now, and then you're just trucking around in your RV with a
01:40:26.394 --> 01:40:26.543
fucking
01:40:26.904 --> 01:40:27.384
body in
01:40:27.384 --> 01:40:27.594
the back.
01:40:27.594 --> 01:40:28.373
Little soda pop.
01:40:30.444 --> 01:40:31.493
the judge sentenced.
01:40:31.644 --> 01:40:33.264
Sally needs to life in prison.
01:40:34.253 --> 01:40:38.694
He told her she would be in prison for the rest of your natural life.
01:40:39.354 --> 01:40:44.423
Needs stood with her hands clasped in her lap as the sentence was announced.
01:40:45.323 --> 01:40:49.404
She was then handcuffed and escorted from the courtroom by deputies and marshals.
01:40:50.509 --> 01:41:01.913
The court officials says she would be processed through the Idaho penitentiary before being transferred to an out-of-state women's prison because of her criminal record and experience in other institutions.
01:41:02.094 --> 01:41:03.503
Meaning the bitch is escaping.
01:41:03.654 --> 01:41:03.923
Yeah.
01:41:03.923 --> 01:41:06.684
They're like, no, we need, we need the big guns on this one.
01:41:06.684 --> 01:41:09.113
And mind you, she did not tunnel out of prison.
01:41:09.113 --> 01:41:09.894
This is not shocking,
01:41:10.793 --> 01:41:14.814
but listen, the crimes of opportunity like this
01:41:14.814 --> 01:41:14.904
mm-hmm.
01:41:15.144 --> 01:41:16.849
They do take quite a bit of planning.
01:41:17.069 --> 01:41:17.488
Mm-hmm.
01:41:17.844 --> 01:41:19.944
And motivate it.
01:41:20.003 --> 01:41:24.323
It could be spontaneous, but I bet that was not her first ride with that nurse.
01:41:24.774 --> 01:41:25.073
No.
01:41:25.073 --> 01:41:27.804
She was like, I could fucking do this.
01:41:27.984 --> 01:41:30.264
And then she probably had to find somebody to find her a knife.
01:41:30.623 --> 01:41:30.743
Mm-hmm.
01:41:31.194 --> 01:41:34.884
Those are not just, well, fuck in the sixties, maybe they were just handy dandy everywhere.
01:41:34.884 --> 01:41:36.203
Preach razors.
01:41:36.203 --> 01:41:37.014
Hello.
01:41:37.073 --> 01:41:37.493
That's true.
01:41:37.493 --> 01:41:38.873
That my bad.
01:41:40.373 --> 01:41:43.434
Following the sentencing, Matthew said the conviction would be appealed.
01:41:43.434 --> 01:41:44.484
We know.
01:41:45.128 --> 01:41:50.229
Prosecutor said the sentence was appropriate given the nature of the crime and her history.
01:41:54.219 --> 01:42:02.948
After sentencing questions immediately arose over how long Sally needs would be required to serve before becoming eligible for parole.
01:42:04.328 --> 01:42:04.929
Could we just let, I
01:42:04.929 --> 01:42:06.908
thought we had life without parole, or did
01:42:06.908 --> 01:42:06.998
we?
01:42:07.163 --> 01:42:07.628
No, just life
01:42:07.628 --> 01:42:08.738
with, oh, okay.
01:42:09.368 --> 01:42:16.569
Ada County Prosecutor Leroy said the life sentence imposed by the court met needs could not be considered for release for at least 10 years.
01:42:17.048 --> 01:42:17.618
Okay.
01:42:18.908 --> 01:42:28.929
The Idaho Commission of Pardons and Paroles took a different position pointing to conflicting language within the Idaho code governing parole eligibility for inmates serving life limits.
01:42:28.958 --> 01:42:29.798
No surprise.
01:42:30.219 --> 01:42:31.184
It was a, it was a shit show.
01:42:31.184 --> 01:42:31.993
It was a cluster fuck.
01:42:31.993 --> 01:42:32.323
Thank you.
01:42:32.323 --> 01:42:35.413
We didn't, we did not have our ducks in a row, that's for sure.
01:42:35.474 --> 01:42:48.399
Boise attorney, Sam Kauf, Sam Kaufman, chairman of the parole Commission, said that the statute allowed parole consideration after five years, or one third of the sentence, whichever was less five years.
01:42:48.649 --> 01:42:58.274
Coman said the revision requiring prisoners to serve 10 years before release conflicted with a later revision stating the commission could accept parole applications after five.
01:42:58.814 --> 01:43:01.634
This state was willy-nilly the whole fucking state.
01:43:01.634 --> 01:43:06.404
We had different things that were conflicting other things, and that's no surprise to me.
01:43:06.404 --> 01:43:11.503
And so then of course they have something, it's reasonable to bring these things up.
01:43:12.944 --> 01:43:22.634
So he said the provision requiring prisoners to serve 10 years before being released conflicted with the later revision, stating the commission could accept parole applications after five years.
01:43:23.413 --> 01:43:24.463
What's the difference?
01:43:24.463 --> 01:43:30.703
Kauffman said, adding that the commission was bound by the intent of the newer language Prosecutor.
01:43:30.703 --> 01:43:37.634
Leroy disagreed saying the revision addressed only when applications could be filed, not when release could occur.
01:43:37.634 --> 01:43:38.564
What a fuck.
01:43:38.623 --> 01:43:40.213
Get your word salad.
01:43:40.213 --> 01:43:40.838
Just say what you mean.
01:43:42.434 --> 01:43:46.484
The disagreement centered on two sentences within the same paragraph of the law.
01:43:46.604 --> 01:43:49.963
One which had never been removed when the statute was amended.
01:43:50.203 --> 01:43:52.663
Whoopsie fucking idiots.
01:43:53.863 --> 01:43:55.963
This is the price that we pay because it was,
01:43:56.024 --> 01:44:03.134
yeah, as a dispute Unfolded needs was transferred from Ada County jail to the Idaho Penitentiary.
01:44:04.213 --> 01:44:13.963
And then because of her prior convictions escape institutional history, she was sent to a prison outside of Idaho.
01:44:14.384 --> 01:44:16.873
She w ended up in, um.
01:44:17.833 --> 01:44:21.673
Alderson Federal Women's Prison in West Virginia.
01:44:21.793 --> 01:44:21.913
Oh
01:44:21.913 --> 01:44:22.003
damn.
01:44:22.003 --> 01:44:25.764
Which is so far away, to serve her life sentence
01:44:27.173 --> 01:44:28.793
going to the West Virginia.
01:44:28.823 --> 01:44:29.543
Okay.
01:44:29.844 --> 01:44:33.684
And of course then we have an appeal with Idaho Supreme Court.
01:44:34.493 --> 01:44:41.434
A the, her attorneys argued that the evidence presented at trial was insufficient to support the conviction for first degree murder.
01:44:42.274 --> 01:44:43.623
Dude, he didn't have a head.
01:44:43.684 --> 01:44:44.163
Yeah.
01:44:44.863 --> 01:44:53.384
the appeal challenge, the state's failure to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the headless armless torso found in the Boise foothills was that of Ronald needs,
01:44:53.384 --> 01:44:54.463
but it's reasonable.
01:44:54.463 --> 01:44:55.573
So moving on,
01:44:55.904 --> 01:45:02.474
and that the homicide occurred in Ada County, I would have everything banking on wrong venue if it was me.
01:45:02.533 --> 01:45:02.804
Yeah.
01:45:02.804 --> 01:45:03.554
Because that's.
01:45:04.333 --> 01:45:05.144
You cannot.
01:45:05.173 --> 01:45:08.564
We had that on the one that went from like Washington to here.
01:45:08.594 --> 01:45:08.654
Yeah.
01:45:08.654 --> 01:45:08.743
There.
01:45:08.743 --> 01:45:11.203
And they couldn't prove where the death occurred.
01:45:11.203 --> 01:45:11.474
Covers
01:45:11.474 --> 01:45:12.554
the motorcycle gangs.
01:45:12.559 --> 01:45:12.759
Mm-hmm.
01:45:12.844 --> 01:45:13.094
Mm-hmm.
01:45:13.484 --> 01:45:13.844
Motor.
01:45:14.234 --> 01:45:19.844
Now that our episodes are all available, it's the one two part episode that we did.
01:45:19.844 --> 01:45:20.774
Motorcycle was 13
01:45:20.774 --> 01:45:21.554
and 14.
01:45:21.554 --> 01:45:22.453
Something like that.
01:45:22.484 --> 01:45:24.479
Anyways, just if you guys don't know, I love that episode.
01:45:24.698 --> 01:45:30.043
Uh, we had a setting on our RSSV to only release, have 30 episodes current.
01:45:30.043 --> 01:45:30.104
Yeah.
01:45:30.104 --> 01:45:30.134
I
01:45:30.134 --> 01:45:31.243
don't know why that's the default.
01:45:31.243 --> 01:45:38.953
So for those of you that are newer listeners that haven't been here, day one, uh, episodes one through 20 are now available for you.
01:45:38.984 --> 01:45:39.793
Yeah, they're there.
01:45:39.793 --> 01:45:39.854
So
01:45:40.033 --> 01:45:40.184
go
01:45:40.184 --> 01:45:40.363
listen.
01:45:40.363 --> 01:45:42.703
Just a, a quick click of a setting.
01:45:42.913 --> 01:45:43.844
Had no idea.
01:45:44.743 --> 01:45:45.493
Apologies.
01:45:48.703 --> 01:45:54.819
within days of her transfer needs filed a notice of appeal with the Idaho Supreme Court through her attorney.
01:45:54.944 --> 01:46:00.823
She argued that the evidence presented at trial was insufficient to support a conviction for first degree murder.
01:46:01.889 --> 01:46:13.618
The appeal challenge the state's failure to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the headless armless torso found in the Boise foothills was that of Ronald Des, and that the homicide occurred in Ada County.
01:46:13.708 --> 01:46:14.759
They're gonna die on this hill.
01:46:15.479 --> 01:46:28.738
The defense also argued that extensive pretrial publicity had denied her a fair trial and that inflammatory evidence, including photographs and testimony about a prior knife incident, should not have been admitted.
01:46:30.988 --> 01:46:32.908
Why are there so many knife incidents?
01:46:34.019 --> 01:46:34.109
Like
01:46:34.109 --> 01:46:34.198
what?
01:46:34.198 --> 01:46:34.288
Yeah.
01:46:34.679 --> 01:46:43.859
Says, come on in written briefs, defense attorneys said the prosecution had avoided directly establishing where the killing took place.
01:46:44.128 --> 01:46:49.588
Did they really though, or did we don't know because people be burning evidence.
01:46:49.889 --> 01:46:49.979
Yeah.
01:46:50.759 --> 01:46:54.479
and had relied on circumstantial evidence to bridge gaps in the case.
01:46:54.658 --> 01:46:55.738
Yes, they did.
01:46:56.573 --> 01:47:05.844
they contended the trial court aired by denying a change of venue they did and allowing the ver the jury to view graphic images of the remains.
01:47:06.743 --> 01:47:14.694
Look, I do think, and there's been some other cases we've done where yes, it could be too much, but they still have to present that evidence.
01:47:14.694 --> 01:47:18.354
They, they still need to show what the farmer,
01:47:18.354 --> 01:47:18.599
what happened.
01:47:18.599 --> 01:47:18.878
Yeah.
01:47:19.043 --> 01:47:19.644
What they saw.
01:47:19.644 --> 01:47:20.873
So, yeah, exactly.
01:47:22.463 --> 01:47:33.503
Prosecutors responded that the totality of the evidence was sufficient to support the verdict and that the trial had been conducted fairly, why the appeal moved forward.
01:47:33.713 --> 01:47:42.083
Parole authorities said needs could be eligible for consideration in fewer than five years because somebody didn't fucking fix their PDF.
01:47:42.083 --> 01:47:43.769
No, there was no PDF, but it wasn't fixed.
01:47:43.868 --> 01:47:44.288
Mm-hmm.
01:47:44.974 --> 01:47:47.463
depending on how the statute was interpreted.
01:47:47.514 --> 01:47:52.373
So I just, nobody used whiteout prosecutor.
01:47:52.373 --> 01:47:59.634
Leroy requested a formal legal opinion to clarify the minimum time of a life Sentenced inmate
01:48:00.203 --> 01:48:00.293
mm-hmm.
01:48:00.833 --> 01:48:02.814
Must serve before parole eligibility.
01:48:03.323 --> 01:48:06.984
Five years is too little if you're getting a whole, fucking lifetime.
01:48:07.554 --> 01:48:07.734
Yeah.
01:48:08.613 --> 01:48:13.293
but the issue remained unresolved as needs began serving her sentence in federal custody.
01:48:15.123 --> 01:48:15.634
Alright.
01:48:16.054 --> 01:48:21.993
The Idaho Supreme Court heard oral arguments on Sally needs a appeal in December of 1978.
01:48:23.823 --> 01:48:27.724
Her attorneys argued everything that we've talked about.
01:48:27.904 --> 01:48:29.764
Was it done in Ada County?
01:48:29.854 --> 01:48:32.253
Was it the, was it really Ronald?
01:48:34.113 --> 01:48:34.474
Um,
01:48:35.944 --> 01:48:38.404
I feel like they should have leaned more on the county stuff.
01:48:38.463 --> 01:48:39.274
I really should.
01:48:40.458 --> 01:48:45.559
but they said the state attorneys responded that taken as a whole supported the jury's verdict.
01:48:46.338 --> 01:48:56.479
They argued that the body had been discovered inside Ada County and that physical evidence recovered from the scene and from the motor home tied the remains to Ronald needs.
01:48:57.139 --> 01:48:59.538
And this is all just minute.
01:48:59.543 --> 01:48:59.873
Mm-hmm.
01:48:59.958 --> 01:49:00.469
Stuff.
01:49:00.469 --> 01:49:01.189
We're splitting hairs.
01:49:01.219 --> 01:49:01.639
Yes.
01:49:02.899 --> 01:49:09.529
Trial court acted within its discretion and that the jury had been properly instructed on how to waste circumstantial evidence, which is huge.
01:49:09.708 --> 01:49:10.009
Mm-hmm.
01:49:10.788 --> 01:49:19.368
February, 1979, the Idaho Supreme Court issued a unanimous decision, upholding the conviction, writing for the court.
01:49:19.519 --> 01:49:35.179
Justice Charles Donaldson said the evidence was sufficient to allow the jury to conclude the homicide occurred in Ada County Fair and that the body was that of Ronald Deeds, and I'm pretty sure there's just not a lot of missing men out there.
01:49:35.328 --> 01:49:38.748
Yeah, with that same height, weight, race,
01:49:38.958 --> 01:49:45.738
injured toes, scarred toes, The court rejected the pretrial publicity had denied deans a fair trial.
01:49:46.618 --> 01:49:54.179
the court also upheld the admission of evidence challenged by the defense, and ruled that the trial court did not abuse its discretion in denying a change of venue,
01:49:55.618 --> 01:50:02.009
which that's in my opinion, a tough one to even say of did the venue affect.
01:50:03.149 --> 01:50:04.679
How do you quantify?
01:50:04.679 --> 01:50:04.859
That's,
01:50:05.609 --> 01:50:07.679
and it's, but it's the easiest one.
01:50:07.769 --> 01:50:07.918
Mm-hmm.
01:50:08.158 --> 01:50:09.538
To be like, we can make this happen.
01:50:10.229 --> 01:50:10.439
Yeah.
01:50:10.439 --> 01:50:10.498
Yeah.
01:50:11.458 --> 01:50:15.748
With a conviction, affirmed needs remained incarcerated under a life sentence.
01:50:16.048 --> 01:50:21.029
She served time in several institutions, including federal facilities outside of Idaho.
01:50:21.673 --> 01:50:24.644
Before eventually returning to the state prison system.
01:50:24.974 --> 01:50:25.274
Oh,
01:50:25.904 --> 01:50:28.243
over the years she repeatedly sought parole.
01:50:28.844 --> 01:50:55.304
In 1982, the Idaho Commission of Pardons and Parole denied her request for release the commission again, rejected her bid for parole in 1992, citing the severity of the crime and her institutional record, and set her next hearing years later, In January, 1997, prison officials found her hanging in her cell at the Pocatello Women's Prison.
01:50:55.484 --> 01:50:56.083
Oh no.
01:50:56.533 --> 01:51:03.434
Officers cut her down and attempted to revive her before she was transported to Ock Regional Medical Center.
01:51:03.974 --> 01:51:06.253
She was placed on life support and critical condition.
01:51:07.064 --> 01:51:11.594
Three days later, after consultation with family and medical staff, life support was withdrawn.
01:51:12.569 --> 01:51:16.769
Sally needs died on January 12th, 1997 at the age of 52.
01:51:21.179 --> 01:51:22.349
Yeah, 52.
01:51:23.788 --> 01:51:27.448
And look, hanging yourself.
01:51:27.448 --> 01:51:29.698
That's awful, right?
01:51:29.819 --> 01:51:31.679
We don't want anybody doing that, but
01:51:31.679 --> 01:51:37.828
no, it seems like there was some problems deep seated, you know?
01:51:37.828 --> 01:51:40.948
And what her defense attorney said, she had a rough childhood.
01:51:41.849 --> 01:51:48.418
It makes for adults that don't have good coping mechanisms and then go on to do really terrible, awful shit.
01:51:48.929 --> 01:51:49.349
So
01:51:49.408 --> 01:51:52.229
including cutting the head and arms off of
01:51:52.229 --> 01:51:53.429
her dismembering
01:51:53.729 --> 01:51:58.679
husband of one month, a human body, any.
01:51:59.384 --> 01:52:02.923
I would struggle to do that with a deer that I was going to eat.
01:52:02.923 --> 01:52:04.783
That's why I don't, I don't do that.
01:52:04.814 --> 01:52:06.524
No, don't participate.
01:52:06.524 --> 01:52:06.703
No,
01:52:06.703 --> 01:52:06.974
Rick.
01:52:06.974 --> 01:52:13.123
One time the boys went hunting and they can get, you know, the prong horn, like barely have horns.
01:52:13.123 --> 01:52:13.304
Right.
01:52:14.144 --> 01:52:18.913
And they had skinned and gutted it in the field and brought it back.
01:52:19.484 --> 01:52:24.613
It was the exact same looking size and body style as my old Doberman.
01:52:24.613 --> 01:52:26.804
'cause he was a very big doberman, like tall.
01:52:27.224 --> 01:52:27.764
Mm-hmm.
01:52:27.765 --> 01:52:27.784
And big.
01:52:28.423 --> 01:52:35.054
And it was a very tiny deer, and just like the, it looked like my dog skinned.
01:52:36.349 --> 01:52:38.264
I, I couldn't, I couldn't separate it.
01:52:38.323 --> 01:52:39.703
I couldn't, it's just not for me.
01:52:40.243 --> 01:52:40.484
Yeah.
01:52:40.484 --> 01:52:45.344
And so dismembering a human body that's very, it takes
01:52:45.344 --> 01:52:47.474
something special to be able to do that.
01:52:47.713 --> 01:52:48.253
Yeah.
01:52:48.524 --> 01:52:50.083
I don't think most people could do that.
01:52:50.948 --> 01:52:51.668
I, I just don't.
01:52:51.668 --> 01:52:51.948
Mm-hmm.
01:52:52.048 --> 01:52:53.533
I'd like to believe in humanity.
01:52:53.684 --> 01:52:56.713
I mean, I just don't think, and, you know.
01:52:57.538 --> 01:53:07.979
I also kind of, I wonder, I ponder the thought that if you've murdered before and I'll, and I, I'm not going to in a lighter way.
01:53:08.309 --> 01:53:08.698
Right.
01:53:08.698 --> 01:53:09.328
Not that
01:53:09.328 --> 01:53:11.189
you can maybe excuse
01:53:13.019 --> 01:53:14.878
shooting somebody in the stomach is still murder.
01:53:15.538 --> 01:53:18.389
But it's not as heinous as some of the crimes we've seen.
01:53:18.658 --> 01:53:22.979
I wonder if that lends itself to be able just to be able to be more gruesome the next time.
01:53:23.184 --> 01:53:23.564
You know what
01:53:23.564 --> 01:53:23.844
I'm saying?
01:53:23.904 --> 01:53:27.029
Or you might think, I've already crossed that bridge.
01:53:27.179 --> 01:53:27.899
I'm already here.
01:53:28.198 --> 01:53:28.529
Let's go.
01:53:28.529 --> 01:53:39.899
So orally you might think to yourself or already going, if you believe in heaven or hell, or I'm already a bad person, and so then you're like.
01:53:41.248 --> 01:53:41.458
It.
01:53:41.548 --> 01:53:46.198
There's not as much of a moral, like pullback, pushback, internally.
01:53:47.309 --> 01:53:52.078
Interesting stuff needs, why you be out
01:53:52.078 --> 01:53:52.168
there?
01:53:52.168 --> 01:53:52.319
Crazy.
01:53:52.319 --> 01:53:55.198
We have another woman, fucking beheading people.
01:53:56.429 --> 01:53:57.359
Don't love it.
01:53:57.658 --> 01:54:04.288
Not a fan, but I was very the, I was like, oh, and she was already convicted.
01:54:04.319 --> 01:54:04.408
Mm-hmm.
01:54:04.708 --> 01:54:05.009
Yeah.
01:54:05.248 --> 01:54:06.328
So, and I love that.
01:54:06.328 --> 01:54:09.118
If this crime were to happen today, it's a hundred percent.
01:54:09.719 --> 01:54:12.208
How messy that type of crime is.
01:54:12.719 --> 01:54:13.889
You're never getting away with it.
01:54:13.918 --> 01:54:14.429
Never
01:54:14.488 --> 01:54:22.588
ever they're gonna find a speck of blood on the inside of your collar or your DNA under a fingernail or mm-hmm.
01:54:22.948 --> 01:54:25.139
The knife, or you're gonna cut yourself.
01:54:25.439 --> 01:54:31.649
Usually in stabbings, people do cut themselves, so I wonder if they even were taking pictures of her hand.
01:54:31.649 --> 01:54:31.679
I
01:54:31.679 --> 01:54:33.298
kind of feel like probably not,
01:54:33.359 --> 01:54:35.099
and maybe she was like, I was hiking.
01:54:35.399 --> 01:54:35.668
You know?
01:54:35.668 --> 01:54:37.498
Even if they did say, oh, what's that?
01:54:37.889 --> 01:54:42.988
I was actually on the side of the road drinking my bottle of Coca-Cola and I dropped,
01:54:42.993 --> 01:54:43.408
dropped it
01:54:43.413 --> 01:54:45.658
not, and then I fell and I slipped.
01:54:46.229 --> 01:54:47.969
Ow I slipped my hands up so bad.
01:54:47.969 --> 01:54:49.078
You would not even imagine.
01:54:50.038 --> 01:54:53.878
Everyone does that when they're having a nice cold coke on a sloped, you know, place.
01:54:53.878 --> 01:54:56.998
They're standing and they fall on it and it slices you a little bit.
01:54:57.748 --> 01:54:59.338
Can a gal have a Coke?
01:54:59.458 --> 01:55:00.179
Jesus.
01:55:01.123 --> 01:55:01.634
Wow.
01:55:01.814 --> 01:55:03.613
A very strange one, Danny.
01:55:03.613 --> 01:55:10.154
I do have to say not, not your typical, you know, I mean, even just a woman with two murders.
01:55:11.623 --> 01:55:13.993
Very rare, very unique.
01:55:15.344 --> 01:55:16.033
But thank you.
01:55:16.033 --> 01:55:17.024
'cause that was a good one.
01:55:17.144 --> 01:55:17.713
Thanks.
01:55:18.144 --> 01:55:20.003
like, follow, subscribe.
01:55:20.394 --> 01:55:23.904
Got a new TikTok out, as you heard with Danny.
01:55:24.444 --> 01:55:28.134
If you haven't been here from the beginning, there's 20 episodes.
01:55:28.854 --> 01:55:32.934
With a little bit maybe questionable audio quality that are out for you.
01:55:32.934 --> 01:55:33.863
Sorry about that.
01:55:34.283 --> 01:55:34.913
So sorry.
01:55:34.913 --> 01:55:38.884
But we were doing the best we could and yeah, thanks for following.
01:55:39.274 --> 01:55:41.673
We, I'm just gonna say we're not sound engineers
01:55:42.873 --> 01:55:46.654
and we try the amount of research and time, the effort
01:55:46.654 --> 01:55:47.073
was made.
01:55:47.073 --> 01:55:48.033
We were effort team.
01:55:48.094 --> 01:55:48.423
But
01:55:48.429 --> 01:55:52.684
how, how many different sets of cords did you have to buy just to make the audio?
01:55:52.684 --> 01:55:52.713
I
01:55:52.713 --> 01:55:54.304
know you wanna, one day I'll go count'em.
01:55:54.304 --> 01:55:54.628
'cause I still.
01:55:55.279 --> 01:55:55.488
We've
01:55:55.488 --> 01:55:57.618
just got random cords that we'll never use for anything
01:55:57.618 --> 01:55:57.708
else.
01:55:57.708 --> 01:55:59.658
You open that package, you own it.
01:55:59.779 --> 01:55:59.868
Mm-hmm.
01:56:00.109 --> 01:56:00.708
So I'm
01:56:00.708 --> 01:56:02.118
not returning that.
01:56:02.418 --> 01:56:02.479
No.
01:56:02.479 --> 01:56:04.609
Got adapters, all kinds of shit anyways.
01:56:04.998 --> 01:56:06.618
Doing the best we can with what we got.
01:56:06.958 --> 01:56:08.069
we've come a long way.
01:56:08.338 --> 01:56:12.429
I'm sure we will continue to grow, and learn from our mistakes.
01:56:12.458 --> 01:56:13.899
Yes, they're out there.
01:56:13.974 --> 01:56:15.929
So, we didn't realize we had a bad setting, so.
01:56:16.378 --> 01:56:21.868
If you're new to our podcast in the last, you know, 20, 30 episodes, we dropped a bunch for you to binge.
01:56:21.899 --> 01:56:22.139
Yeah.
01:56:22.139 --> 01:56:28.048
And you know what, if you're a connoisseur of podcasts, we do like feedback.
01:56:28.048 --> 01:56:30.298
I mean, of course, be kind.
01:56:30.418 --> 01:56:37.769
But if, if you notice something where you're like, wow, you really grew here, or Hey, this might be something you wanna continue to work on,
01:56:37.828 --> 01:56:38.998
we're here, we're open,
01:56:38.998 --> 01:56:39.628
we are here.
01:56:39.628 --> 01:56:41.639
The lethal library@gmail.com.
01:56:42.208 --> 01:56:43.498
We're open to hearing it.
01:56:43.828 --> 01:56:46.529
But anyway, it's been, it's been good.
01:56:46.529 --> 01:56:46.979
It's been fun.
01:56:46.979 --> 01:56:47.969
It's been great, Danny.
01:56:48.118 --> 01:56:48.868
It's been a day.
01:56:48.988 --> 01:56:50.338
It's been a day.
01:56:50.548 --> 01:56:51.899
We'll talk about that another time.
01:56:52.769 --> 01:56:54.088
Ten four rubber ducky.
01:56:54.328 --> 01:56:54.958
Fuck yeah.