348: Simon Sinek - Why Consistency Beats Intensity (Playing The Infinite Game)

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And we have to stop thinking of the other players
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as competitors and start thinking of them as rivals. And
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some of those rivals are worthy of comparison. Worthy rivals
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are the other players in the game who are better
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at some things than you are. Whether they're individuals or organizations,
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we don't have to like them. We don't have to
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agree with them. But we do have to respect them
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because they are better at some things than we are.
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And their strengths reveal to us our weaknesses. And once
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our weaknesses are revealed to us, we can work on them.
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We can improve on them. Otherwise, we remain blind and
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eventually we'll go out of business. So in the independent
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game of business, it's much healthier to view the other
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players as rivals so that we can learn from them
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and improve ourselves.
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Welcome to the Learning Leader Show presented by Brixie and Meyer.
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I am Ryan Hawk. Thank you so much for being here.
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Text LEARNERS to 44222 in order to join tens of
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thousands of learning leaders from all over the world. Receive
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Mindful Monday updates when I'm reading, writing, watching, thinking about.
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Also give you the opportunity to learn more about my book,
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which comes out next week. Welcome to Management. I wrote
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this book because I made so many mistakes when I
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got that initial promotion from individual contributor to leader. And fortunately,
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I've been able to learn from more than 350 podcast
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conversations and incredible mentors and coaches in my life to
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do it better. I've shared absolutely everything I know and
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what I've learned. I've distilled it down into its essence
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and put it in this book, Welcome to Management. It
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would mean so much to me. If you want out
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and bought it, pre-order on Amazon or Barnes & Noble
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or anywhere books are sold. I want to show my publisher, McGraw-Hill,
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that there are an army of learning leaders out there
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ready to support this mission. Okay, now on tonight's featured leader,
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the great Simon Sinek is back. He's probably best known
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for popularizing the concept of why in his first TED
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Talk in 2009. More than 40 million views. Also written many.
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bestselling books, including Start With Why, Leaders Eat Last, and
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most recently, The Infinite Game. A few of the topics
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we discussed, how excellent leaders have no competitors, and Simon
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shares what they have instead. Then the difference between being
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an infinite leader versus a finite leader, and which is
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better for you. And then the two critical skills that
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excellent leaders possess and how you can can develop them.
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Ladies and gentlemen, this is a special one. It's the
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great Simon Sinek. Simon, thank you so much for joining
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me for the third time here on the Learning Leader Show. Welcome, man.
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Thanks. Nice to be back.
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I'm curious since some time has passed since the last
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time we talked. It's been two years. I am fascinated
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and study leaders who sustain excellence. And I'm curious from
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your perspective, what have you found to be the commonalities
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among leaders who sustain excellence?
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There's a humility that they have. As somebody gains more success,
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more notoriety, sometimes more influence or power, some of them
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start to believe that they deserve it or that the
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success is due to them. And the ones who I
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think continue to grow and continue to main remarkable loyalty
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and also the best decision-making capabilities don't believe their own hype.
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They know as much as they've achieved or as much
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as they know, there's still so much more that they
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don't know. And as much as they have– how much
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power they have accumulated, it is a result of the
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help of lots and lots and lots of people. And
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the ones that I find the most astonishing are the
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ones who are in these very, very senior positions. They
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do really have remarkable power and they do really have
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remarkable experience. And if they said, I think I know
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what I'm doing when we had meetings with them, we'd
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probably be okay with it even though we would be embarrassed.
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But they don't. They lean in with absolute curiosity. They
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want to hear what others have to say. They don't
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always agree. But they're interested in expanding and growing and
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know that there's so much more that they have to
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learn as well. That is consistent across the board.
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You personally have achieved levels of success that are in
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kind of otherworldly as far as your space, speaking and
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certainly books. And you look at your first– the TED
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Talk where the microphone breaks. You're just writing on a
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flip chart. with circles and the thing goes absolutely viral.
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How have you maintained a level of, like what process
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do you have in place to maintain a level of
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humility despite, I can't even imagine the amount of offers
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that both in numbers of requests as well as the
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dollar amounts being thrown at your way daily. How have
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you remained humble despite all of that happening?
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I'm fully aware that I'm the same idiot now as
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I was then.
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But many others don't think that.
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It's like I'm fully aware that the things that I
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was bad at, I'm still bad at. And I think
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the way I think about my career, and I have
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for many years, which is I think of a vision
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like an iceberg. And for people who can see a
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vision of the future that does not yet exist, it's
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as if they can see just the tiniest piece of
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ice above the ocean, but they can imagine what's beneath it.
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And they get out there and they use their bully
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pulpit and they start talking about what they can imagine
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below the ocean. And the few early adopters who can say,
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I see what you can see. They start to help
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to build the movement or build the business. And a
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little more iceberg shows you have a little more success.
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The iceberg is the tangible thing that other people can see.
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And before you know it, there's a little bit of iceberg.
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And people can say, oh, now I see the vision.
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And more people jump on and more people help and
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more people believe in the cause that you're trying to promote.
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And before you know it, you've got quite a big
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piece of iceberg sitting above the ocean. And people look
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at you and say, oh, my God, you're so successful.
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Look at that iceberg. Uh, but I've always, uh, maintained,
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I've always maintained sort of a belief that there's so
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much more underneath the ocean that still has yet to
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be done. So I don't really look above the, above
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the ocean level to see how much iceberg has been achieved.
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I I'm always thinking how much more work there is
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to be done. So when people pay me kind compliments
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and say, you've done so much, what goes through my
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mind is, oh, there's still so much to do. And
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so I feel like I'm in service to revealing as
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much of that iceberg as possible and creating a movement
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so that when my time comes, that other people will
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continue to work to reveal even more of the vision
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as possible. So I never look at what I've done.
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I keep thinking about what I still have to do.
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And I think that definitely helps keep me focused on
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where I'm going rather than what I've done.
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Do you reflect though? Are you a reflective person with
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your own work?
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I mean, I don't sit in the room and think
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about it, but you know, sometimes people will bring it
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up and it happens in conversation like now being reflective
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right now. Um, you know, it's, um, yeah, I mean,
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of course, you know, but, uh, but again, I, I,
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I tend to be very future focused. I tend to
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be very focused. You know, I, I don't, when things
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go badly, I tend to be pretty even keeled. I'm like,
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all right, well, let's move on, you know? And when
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things go well, I tend to be like, all right, good.
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Let's celebrate for a little bit. Let's move on. There's
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more to do. So I tend to really be much
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more interested in what has yet to be done rather
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than what has been done.
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I heard an interview with Denzel Washington, and he was
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very similar. He almost didn't even remember, or at least
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it seemed like, some of the incredible accomplishments in the movies.
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He was all about, I'm moving forward. I'm moving forward.
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And so what I'm trying to do is like as
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someone who me hopefully becomes better at pattern recognition, and
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I think that's one of the skills you develop after
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you interview hundreds and hundreds of people, to identify some
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of the patterns among people who are sustaining excellence. And
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one of them I'm finding more and more is what
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you're just describing here is that despite immense success, your
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thought process is– moving forward, on what more you can learn,
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on following your genuine intellectual curiosity. And that is what's
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going to continue or sustain some of the excellence that
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you've achieved in the past.
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Well, I– in the early days, let's start with why.
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People called me the why guy. And I had this
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horrible fear that 30 years from then, I'd still be
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called the why guy. And I know people like that
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who have an entire career based on one idea that
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they had at the beginning, which is great. It's a
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good idea. But I– for my tastes– And from my end,
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my desires are the kind of things I want to
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do in my life. It's about new ideas. It's about
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building on ideas, not just looking for ways to re-articulate
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the same idea. And I don't knock it. When there's
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a good idea, it has great value. And to be
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brought in many different ways, it's just not my thing.
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And recently, someone was interviewing me about Leaders Eat Last,
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which came out, I think, in 2014. And they were saying, Simon,
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in chapter seven, you talk about this. And I was like,
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you got to remind me what I said. I haven't
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read that book in years, you know? And like, they
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asked me, can you retell the story of this? I'm like, uh,
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which story was that? You know, it's like, I haven't,
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I haven't, I haven't read that book in years. I'm
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really interested in what, what is to come. And I
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believe in everything that I wrote and I, and I
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live my life still based on the principles that I
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wrote down and start with why, but I, but I,
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I couldn't tell you what chapter 12 is, you know?
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Do you think you could, um, deconstruct and unpack the
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skills that you developed to see more of the iceberg
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than other people, or for another metaphor, to see around corners.
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People like to follow leaders who make them feel more certainty.
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One thing that people don't like is uncertainty. And so
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when you find a leader who creates more certainty in
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your life, People follow, and that's one of the things
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that you do. How can, let's say, to get real
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practical here, Simon, there's a mid-level manager working within a
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big company. They have a team of 15 people. They're ambitious.
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They really care about leading and helping their team. They
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want to build coalitions of people to follow them, and
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so they want to develop this skill that Simon Sinek
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is so good at, which is seeing more of the
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iceberg than others. What are some ways to develop a
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skill to do that?
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Well, I think there's two parts. I think we put
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a lot of pressure on ourselves, especially younger people, because
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there's this constant question, what's your vision? What's your vision?
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And everybody thinks that they have to have a unique
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vision of the world, which is just not true. There's
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only like 2% of the world's population that we would
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call visionaries. You're Elon Musk's, you're Richard Branson's, you're Martin
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Luther King's. These are the These are the visionaries, you know,
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and we're not like them. You know, most of us
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are not like them. We will not have these incredible
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visions of the world. We don't have to all have
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a vision, but we all do have to find a vision.
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It doesn't have to be ours that we originated. But
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if there is a leader that we like, that we're
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drawn to, if there is a vision of the world
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that inspires us, that we want to commit our lives
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to building. then we can absolutely indeed take that vision
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and make it our own. You know, hundreds of thousands,
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millions of people took Martin Luther King's vision and made
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it their own. And they committed their lives to building
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what became their vision for a different kind of America.
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And even after Dr. King was assassinated, that vision continued
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because it was no longer his. It became of the people.
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This is really important that we don't have to stress
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about coming up with an original vision, but we do
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have to find one. And you can articulate it in
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their words or your own, which then goes to the
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second point, which is storytelling, which is, I think people
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have to practice telling stories. Most people explain things in
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rational terms. I see people trying to explain the world,
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but rather than telling stories, tell stories of individuals, tell
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stories of real case studies, tell stories of, you know,
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tell stories and metaphors, but tell stories that people can,
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we call it vision because we can see it. A
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story should help us imagine It should spark something in
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our mind's eye. I have a dream that one day
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little black children will hold hands on the playground with
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little white children, Martin Luther King said. Well, you can
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imagine that. He's painting a scene. There's a wonderful story
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with Phil Knight, the co-founder of Nike, when he went
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to a big business conference. And he was asked to
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talk about Nike. And we've all sat in conferences, heard
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CEOs talk about their companies, sometimes the ones they founded.
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And they stand up there and they tell you what
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the product is. And they tell you how much compounded
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growth they've had over the past 10, 20 years. They
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talk about where they're going, what their stock price is.
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They talk about the innovation. They talk about all these
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generic descriptions of their remarkable companies that aren't that inspiring.
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That's not what Phil Knight did. He stood up on
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the stage and he said, if you have ever run
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for exercise, please stand up. Most of the room stood up.
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He says, if you consistently run at least twice a week,
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please remain standing. Everybody else sit down. Most of the
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room sits down. If he says you, you run at
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least three times a week, rain or shine, please keep standing.
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And now most of the room has sat down and
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only a few people remain standing. And Phil Knight talks
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directly to them. He looks at each of them in
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the eye and he says, when you're out there, when
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it's dark and cold and wet and you're running by yourself,
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We're the ones standing under the lamppost cheering you on.
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That's how he described Nike. And when you hear that
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story that Nike says that we're a brand for athletes
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and we believe everyone's an athlete, that when they say
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just do it, it's not about winning. It's about those
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who do, those who try, those who get out there.
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That's why Nike exists. And you can understand his vision
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that he wants people to get out there. He wants
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people to do something. And now it's so consistent. You
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see just that one story of how he explains his brand,
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how he explains his vision about those who get out
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there and those who do. And he wants everybody to
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get out there and do something. You have a crystal
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clear sense of where he's going and why he's doing
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it and why all the products now make sense.
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I love that story. And it reminds me a bit
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because I think we've had a similar experience, mine at
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a different company, but I'll explain mine, then tee up yours.
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I was recently listening to a CEO speak to the team.
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I was to go next after the person. And so
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I like to go early to hear what the leader
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is going to say to the team so I can
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refer to it and probably add on what they're saying.
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And I noticed that there was a heavy amount of
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talk about the competition. Other companies who maybe are passing
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them up or have better products and how there is
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this big mission to beat the competition there. And it's
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so interesting that at the same time I'm reading The
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Infinite Game, your book, and describing the fact that you
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gave a keynote at Microsoft and you gave a keynote
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at Apple. And can you describe the difference between what
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the message was at Apple versus Microsoft as well as
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the outcome?
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So this was in the Steve Ballmer days. Microsoft was
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really not what it used to be. And I gave
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a talk at an education summit for Microsoft. I also
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gave a talk at an education summit for Apple. At
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the Microsoft summit, the vast majority of the executives spent
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the vast majority of their presentations talking about how to
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beat Apple. It was clear that their sights were set
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on upstaging Apple. At the Apple summit, 100% of the
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executives spent 100% of their presentations talking about how to
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help teachers teach and how to help students learn. One
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was obsessed with revealing the iceberg. And the other one
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was obsessed with beating their competition. So guess which one
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was struggling with issues of trust and cooperation and innovation
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at the time, right? So at the end of my
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talk at Microsoft, they gave me a gift. They gave
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me the new Zune when it was a thing. This
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was Microsoft's response to the iPod. And this little piece
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of technology at the game was actually pretty good. It
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was actually pretty amazing. Beautifully designed and it worked. The
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user interface was really intuitive. So at the end of
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my Apple talk, I was sharing a taxi with a
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senior Apple executive, and of course I couldn't help myself.
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I had to stir the pot. So I turned to
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him and I said, you know, Microsoft gave me their
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new Zune, and it is so much better than your
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iPod Touch. And he looked at me and he said,
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I have no doubt. And the conversation was over. because
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basically what he understood was in the infinite game of
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business where there is no such thing as a finish line,
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nobody's declared the winner in business. It doesn't exist. There's
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no agreed upon metrics, no agreed upon time frames. It's
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all arbitrary. What he understood in the infinite game of
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business is that the only true competitor is yourself. But
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the goal is not to beat Microsoft because sometimes they
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have the better product and sometimes you have the better product.
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That's how it always works in business. Sometimes you're ahead
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and sometimes you're behind, but there's no such thing as
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being the winner or being the best. It doesn't exist.
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And the only true competitor in the infinite game is yourself.
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It's a game of constant improvement. How do I make
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my vision clearer this year than it was last year?
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How do I make my team stronger this year than
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it was last year? How do I improve the quality
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of leadership training so that it's better this year than
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it was last year? The quality of my product, the
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quality of my marketing, the quality of my communication. How
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do I make it better this year than it was
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last year? And we have to stop thinking about the
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other players in the game as competitors. Competitors are there
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to be beaten, but only in a finite game like
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baseball or football where there's agreed upon metrics and agreed
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upon rules and we know who all the players are
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and we know what the finish line looks like. We
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don't know these things in business. They don't exist. The
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only reason we declare our numbers at the end of
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the year is because that's when we pay taxes. If
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taxes were every 18 months, then that would be the
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standard time frame. And we have to stop thinking of
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the other players as competitors and start thinking of them
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as rivals. And some of those rivals are worthy of comparison.
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Worthy rivals are the other players in the game who
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are better at some things than you are. Whether they're
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individuals or organizations, we don't have to like them. We
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don't have to agree with them. But we do have
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to respect them because they are better at some things
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than we are. And their strengths reveal to us our weaknesses.
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And once our weaknesses are revealed to us, we can
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work on them. We can improve on them. Otherwise, we
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remain blind and eventually we'll go out of business. So
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in the independent game of business, it's much healthier to
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view the other players as rivals so that we can
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learn from them and improve ourselves.
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Why do you think CEOs, really smart people who have
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been successful, right? Steve Ballmer went on to buy the
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Clippers and he's got a good team, right? Some people
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could argue he's done incredibly, incredibly well. Why do people
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struggle with this? Why is this an issue?
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We're defining incredibly well that he made billions. That's how
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we're defining They did incredibly well. So if you had
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to say, so, so he, he made his money because
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he was an early employee of Microsoft and he's an
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extremely talented executive who worked very well alongside a visionary
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called Bill Gates. However, when he was promoted to the
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visionary position, uh, that the CEO position, which is not
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an operating position, it's a, it's a visionary position, but
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he's still an operator who ran the company much more
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about the numbers in the short term and much less
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about the longterm and the vision. He left the company
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in a shambles. So was he successful because he bought
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the Clippers? Like is that success? What's Steve Ballmer's legacy?
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He owned the Clippers. What's Bill Gates' legacy? He completely
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changed the way we do business. He helped put a
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PC on every desk. I mean you can define success
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however you want. But let's be very careful about saying, hey,
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he was successful. Maybe he's doing everything right. He was
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successful in one kind of metric, which is financial, and
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he was– He was very lucky to be in the
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right place at the right time as a talented executive
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to be hired early on by a visionary and be
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the number two. Yeah, it's a good point.
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One of the things you write about is great leaders
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are the ones who think beyond short-term versus long-term. They
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are the ones who know it's not about the next
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quarter or the next election, but about the next generation.
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I've worked in corporate America where there was such a
401
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push for quarter to quarter and that what you know
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00:21:26.849 --> 00:21:30.670
what goes with that right cost cutting doing kind of
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weird things to make sure revenue shows up on the
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balance sheet so that we hit our quarter those types
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so There are people, though, who say, Simon, it may
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be easier for us sitting here on the outside who
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are not inside the company to say, oh, that's bad.
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You shouldn't think that way. But they're the ones on
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the inside who are saying, if I don't do this,
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I'm going to get fired or the board's going to
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get rid of me or I'm a mid-level manager and
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my boss won't keep me. And I love doing this.
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What do you say to those people with that in mind,
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thinking about the long game versus the short game?
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Look, we're not going to change the way business works overnight.
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Let us be clear that the way that very many
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of the standard business functions today are not quote-unquote norms
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of business. They began 30 or 40 years ago. In
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the late 1970s, Milton Friedman, an economist named Milton Friedman,
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theorized that the responsibility of business was to maximize profit
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within the bounds of the law. And that has become
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the mantra Of business today, maximize profits. If you ask people,
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why do businesses exist, they say to maximize profit. This
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was just a theory proposed and it was embraced in
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the boom years of the 80s and 90s. And as
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a result of the embracing of this very, very basic definition,
427
00:22:52.490 --> 00:22:54.769
what about ethics? Is ethics not a part of the
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responsibility of business? Is it just profit at all costs?
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We know what that gets us. And so the problem is,
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is this definition of business drove some rather new ideas
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of how to run a business. For example, the use
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of mass layoffs on a regular basis, on an annualized
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basis to balance the books did not exist in the
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United States prior to the 1980s. Did not exist. It
435
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was popularized in the 80s and 90s by CEOs like
436
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Jack Welch of GE and those like him. The concept
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of shareholder supremacy, where we prioritize the wants, needs, and
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desires of an external constituency over the customer and the employee,
439
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which is like the coach of a team trying to
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00:23:34.539 --> 00:23:36.720
build a great team by taking advice from the fans
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rather than listening to the players. That concept of maximizing
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shareholder value and shareholder supremacy did not exist in the
443
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United States prior to the 70s, 80s, and 90s. It
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was really popularized as a concept in the 80s and 90s.
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And things like ranking yanks, And the dismantling of the
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00:23:56.029 --> 00:23:59.390
Glass-Steagall Act, which was passed after the Great Depression to
447
00:23:59.430 --> 00:24:02.170
prevent another Great Depression from happening, all in the name
448
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of corporate profit, have done great damage to our economy.
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Between the Great Depression and the dismantling of Glass-Steagall in
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the 80s and 90s, we had zero stock market crashes.
451
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Since the dismantling of those reforms, we had 1987, the
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dot-com boom, and 2008. We've had three significant stock market
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crashes as a result of the lack of reform focused
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on the short term. So I don't believe that we're
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going to just overnight change the way business is done.
456
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But if we want to see it changed and believe
457
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there's a better way, then all of us have to
458
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take some responsibility. We all have to be the leaders
459
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we wish we had. Of course, you're not going to
460
00:24:44.140 --> 00:24:48.200
change the way your CEO leads. Of course, no number
461
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of anonymously sent books to your CEO is going to
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change the way that they lead. But we can all
463
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become the leaders we wish we had. We can take
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care of the people to the left and to the right,
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ensure that someone has their back, that wants to see
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them grow as people, go home at the end of
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the day feeling like someone cares about them, going home
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at the end of the day fulfilled by their work.
469
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And what you'll find is those teams, regardless of your
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rank or position in the team, you can still be
471
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a leader because leadership has nothing to do with rank.
472
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It has everything to do with seeing those around us rise.
473
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And those teams tend to be higher performing teams, which
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means senior leadership either leaves you alone or they're curious
475
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about what you're doing because they want to implement that
476
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across the rest of the company. And then somebody from
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00:25:33.170 --> 00:25:35.380
that team will get moved to another team and bring
478
00:25:35.519 --> 00:25:39.019
everything they've learned about leadership to this new team. And
479
00:25:39.099 --> 00:25:42.859
that will be a high performing, highly functioning, high trusting,
480
00:25:42.920 --> 00:25:46.319
high cooperation team. And before you know it, the tail
481
00:25:46.359 --> 00:25:48.700
wags the dog. Before you know it, we've completely changed
482
00:25:48.720 --> 00:25:52.549
the company. It took us 30 years to convert away
483
00:25:52.630 --> 00:25:56.430
from when people would devote their entire lives to one
484
00:25:56.490 --> 00:25:59.819
company to get to the point where employees don't show
485
00:25:59.839 --> 00:26:03.339
a company loyalty because, quite frankly, companies don't show their
486
00:26:03.380 --> 00:26:07.420
employees loyalty. It's not a meritocracy anymore. Nothing personal. It's
487
00:26:07.460 --> 00:26:09.920
just business, we're told, which is complete nonsense. Business is
488
00:26:09.940 --> 00:26:11.920
one of the most personal things in the world. We
489
00:26:11.940 --> 00:26:14.059
spend more time at work than we do with our families.
490
00:26:14.400 --> 00:26:19.789
It's always about people. So are there risks involved? Absolutely
491
00:26:19.829 --> 00:26:22.710
there are. And sometimes, some of our leaders will put
492
00:26:22.759 --> 00:26:24.579
their necks out to do the right thing, and some
493
00:26:24.599 --> 00:26:27.119
of them may lose their jobs accordingly. And here's the
494
00:26:27.160 --> 00:26:30.720
amazing thing. Others will be inspired by their courage. Others
495
00:26:30.779 --> 00:26:33.359
might leave with them. Others may continue to do what
496
00:26:33.380 --> 00:26:37.839
they're doing. And at the end of the day, There
497
00:26:37.920 --> 00:26:40.880
is risk, but there is very little risk in showing
498
00:26:40.940 --> 00:26:42.619
up to work today to be the leader you wish
499
00:26:42.640 --> 00:26:45.740
you had. But to rationalize a way that I can
500
00:26:45.819 --> 00:26:48.799
do bad things because, you know, I got to put
501
00:26:48.859 --> 00:26:50.960
food on the table or everyone else is doing it
502
00:26:51.119 --> 00:26:54.480
or that's just the industry standard. Then we end up
503
00:26:54.529 --> 00:27:00.230
with examples like Wells Fargo, where thousands of employees open 3.5
504
00:27:00.230 --> 00:27:03.710
million fake bank accounts so they could meet their numbers.
505
00:27:03.750 --> 00:27:05.980
That's what we end up with. We end up with
506
00:27:06.019 --> 00:27:09.279
a horrible case of ethical fading when we can rationalize
507
00:27:09.359 --> 00:27:13.440
our way, our abhorrent behavior. I would rather we hold
508
00:27:13.480 --> 00:27:16.019
ourselves to higher standards. I would rather we show up
509
00:27:16.059 --> 00:27:17.559
every single day and take care of each other.
510
00:27:18.339 --> 00:27:23.250
Like George Eastman. He was not just great for Kodak
511
00:27:23.549 --> 00:27:28.279
back in 1912, but great... for the game of business
512
00:27:28.559 --> 00:27:29.299
as a whole.
513
00:27:29.380 --> 00:27:30.779
Exactly, exactly.
514
00:27:30.839 --> 00:27:34.319
Right, he created employee incentives that were not happening up
515
00:27:34.339 --> 00:27:38.789
to that point, stock options, six days tuition, reimbursement, and
516
00:27:38.940 --> 00:27:41.990
on and on. And yet you say, well, of course,
517
00:27:42.029 --> 00:27:44.630
that's just normal. Well, it wasn't. And I think that's,
518
00:27:45.569 --> 00:27:47.789
maybe you know more about the story, you've written about it,
519
00:27:47.789 --> 00:27:52.150
but hearing stories about George Eastman, who I had not
520
00:27:52.230 --> 00:27:55.109
read a lot about until reading your work, was an
521
00:27:55.150 --> 00:27:57.730
inspiring moment for me as a leader.
522
00:27:59.009 --> 00:28:01.819
So this is what's really important, which is finite players
523
00:28:01.859 --> 00:28:03.740
in the game of business. In other words, people who
524
00:28:03.779 --> 00:28:05.339
are playing to win or be the best or be
525
00:28:05.380 --> 00:28:08.400
number one, they hoard information and they only want to
526
00:28:08.440 --> 00:28:11.589
do things that make themselves better. Infinite players want to
527
00:28:11.630 --> 00:28:13.589
play for the good of the game. And you can
528
00:28:13.650 --> 00:28:16.109
tell the infinite players because they share some of their
529
00:28:16.150 --> 00:28:18.390
best practices because they think it's just good for business.
530
00:28:18.910 --> 00:28:21.700
Like Netflix shares its employee handbook because they think other
531
00:28:21.740 --> 00:28:24.299
people should embrace the way that they do things because
532
00:28:24.319 --> 00:28:27.470
they think it's good for business. And the Container Store
533
00:28:27.730 --> 00:28:30.890
shares the way they do things. Barry Way Miller shares
534
00:28:30.930 --> 00:28:33.410
the way they reward people. A lot of the great
535
00:28:33.450 --> 00:28:36.490
companies who've had a positive impact in business share the
536
00:28:36.529 --> 00:28:38.589
way they do things because they think it's good for business.
537
00:28:39.089 --> 00:28:42.670
And George Eastman was no different. George Eastman pioneered things
538
00:28:42.710 --> 00:28:45.829
that we consider normal today. As you said, you gave
539
00:28:45.869 --> 00:28:49.650
that wonderful list. Paying for things like outside education, paying
540
00:28:49.690 --> 00:28:52.740
for things like health insurance, sick days. All of these
541
00:28:52.799 --> 00:28:55.980
things didn't exist prior to George Eastman. He was quite
542
00:28:56.000 --> 00:28:58.519
a pioneer in business, and he wanted other companies to
543
00:28:58.559 --> 00:29:00.180
do what he was doing because he thought it was
544
00:29:00.200 --> 00:29:05.779
good for business. Patagonia, they share. They're totally transparent with
545
00:29:05.920 --> 00:29:07.400
what they do right and what they do wrong because
546
00:29:07.420 --> 00:29:09.819
they think it's good for business. They think other companies
547
00:29:10.079 --> 00:29:12.660
should be as transparent as they are. So you can
548
00:29:12.720 --> 00:29:15.680
tell when companies are infinite-minded because they're not just trying
549
00:29:15.700 --> 00:29:17.869
to make themselves better. They're actually trying to make all
550
00:29:17.920 --> 00:29:20.430
companies better. They're trying to make the way we conduct
551
00:29:20.569 --> 00:29:24.170
business better. These are the organizations and these are the
552
00:29:24.269 --> 00:29:25.150
leaders I admire.
553
00:29:26.769 --> 00:29:31.599
Me too. Simon, you're sitting in front of a young, ambitious, intelligent,
554
00:29:31.640 --> 00:29:33.759
thoughtful person who says, I want to make a positive
555
00:29:33.799 --> 00:29:37.849
contribution on the world. What are some pieces of general
556
00:29:38.170 --> 00:29:41.099
life advice that you would give me to help?
557
00:29:42.750 --> 00:29:46.069
There's an entire section in the bookshop called self-help and
558
00:29:46.089 --> 00:29:48.809
there is no section in the bookshop called help others.
559
00:29:50.039 --> 00:29:51.960
And frankly, I think we can do a lot better
560
00:29:52.019 --> 00:29:53.700
at taking care of people to the left of us
561
00:29:53.740 --> 00:29:55.119
and taking care of people to the right of us.
562
00:29:55.579 --> 00:30:00.490
We've become an unbelievably self-interested and selfish society to the
563
00:30:00.569 --> 00:30:04.069
point where we are happy to pull out our phones
564
00:30:04.130 --> 00:30:06.970
at a dinner table because, I don't know, it beeped
565
00:30:07.089 --> 00:30:09.559
or we got an alert for an Instagram post and
566
00:30:09.599 --> 00:30:13.380
we'll just swipe and check it real quick. And we
567
00:30:13.920 --> 00:30:16.339
forget about how it makes us feel because it exaggerates
568
00:30:16.380 --> 00:30:19.819
feelings of loneliness and isolation in our own lives. But
569
00:30:19.859 --> 00:30:22.019
we forget that it has an impact in the person
570
00:30:22.079 --> 00:30:25.269
whose life we're sitting across from. That we've all sat
571
00:30:25.309 --> 00:30:27.150
there when somebody pulls out their phone when we're there
572
00:30:27.170 --> 00:30:29.549
and it makes us feel like we don't exist. Well,
573
00:30:29.589 --> 00:30:31.910
we're doing that to people every day. When we put
574
00:30:31.970 --> 00:30:35.069
our phones on the table at a conference room in
575
00:30:35.109 --> 00:30:37.849
a meeting, we're telling the rest of the room, you're
576
00:30:37.890 --> 00:30:40.509
not that important to me. When we hold our phones
577
00:30:40.529 --> 00:30:42.210
and we talk to our friends, we're telling them, you're
578
00:30:42.250 --> 00:30:44.109
not that important to me. When we put our phones
579
00:30:44.170 --> 00:30:47.089
face up or face down at a meal table, we're
580
00:30:47.109 --> 00:30:49.329
telling the people across from us, you're not that important
581
00:30:49.349 --> 00:30:53.609
to me. When we break up with someone by ghosting
582
00:30:53.650 --> 00:30:56.339
them instead of having a fight or getting some closure
583
00:30:56.380 --> 00:30:58.599
or calling them and just talking it through and we
584
00:30:58.640 --> 00:31:02.039
become so confrontation avoidant. Why? Because it's easier for us
585
00:31:02.119 --> 00:31:05.789
even though it makes it harder for other people. We've
586
00:31:05.950 --> 00:31:08.730
we've shied away from doing things that are good for
587
00:31:08.769 --> 00:31:10.549
other people so that we can continue to do things
588
00:31:10.569 --> 00:31:12.150
that are right for us. And it comes at the
589
00:31:12.210 --> 00:31:15.009
expense of our own happiness, our own joy and our
590
00:31:15.089 --> 00:31:17.900
own health. And worse, at the expense of the happiness,
591
00:31:17.940 --> 00:31:19.900
joy and health of the people that we supposedly love.
592
00:31:21.440 --> 00:31:23.420
I think we should all pay a little more attention
593
00:31:23.460 --> 00:31:26.299
to the people around us. You know, everybody's obsessed with
594
00:31:26.339 --> 00:31:28.660
work life balance. Well, I got news for you. No
595
00:31:28.779 --> 00:31:32.230
amount of yoga will fix that uncomfortable feeling that you have.
596
00:31:33.289 --> 00:31:34.630
And when you go to yoga and you say, I
597
00:31:34.690 --> 00:31:37.599
love being present for that hour, or I love meditating
598
00:31:37.640 --> 00:31:40.339
because I love being present, that is a selfish disposition.
599
00:31:40.839 --> 00:31:44.019
You are not present until someone says you are. The
600
00:31:44.079 --> 00:31:47.180
reason we meditate is because we learn to be totally
601
00:31:47.289 --> 00:31:49.210
there and with it. We learn to put thoughts out
602
00:31:49.230 --> 00:31:51.430
of our mind and focus on what somebody else is saying.
603
00:31:51.730 --> 00:31:53.990
So when we're sitting across the table from someone, they
604
00:31:54.170 --> 00:31:57.619
feel like we're listening. They feel like we hear them.
605
00:31:58.160 --> 00:31:59.740
And at the end of our time with them, they
606
00:31:59.779 --> 00:32:02.640
will say to us, I feel heard. Thank you for
607
00:32:02.700 --> 00:32:05.750
being there for me. Thank you for being present. Congratulations.
608
00:32:05.869 --> 00:32:09.710
Now you are present. All of these things, meditation, yoga,
609
00:32:09.730 --> 00:32:12.869
they're acts of service. They're not to help us find
610
00:32:12.930 --> 00:32:16.700
work-life balance. They're there to help us help others find
611
00:32:16.779 --> 00:32:20.559
work-life balance, to help others feel like they matter in
612
00:32:20.599 --> 00:32:23.400
the world. I think we can all do a much
613
00:32:23.460 --> 00:32:27.049
better job of just being more self-aware and remembering we're
614
00:32:27.069 --> 00:32:28.970
not the only people in the world. And we do
615
00:32:29.009 --> 00:32:31.130
have to take care of the people around us. And
616
00:32:31.170 --> 00:32:32.849
if we do, they'll take care of us.
617
00:32:35.089 --> 00:32:38.680
One more. Leadership is a choice. You have to make
618
00:32:38.700 --> 00:32:43.339
the choice to be a leader. Why should someone choose
619
00:32:43.700 --> 00:32:44.319
to lead?
620
00:32:46.000 --> 00:32:49.640
Why should someone choose to be a parent? Everyone has
621
00:32:49.680 --> 00:32:52.109
the capacity to be a parent. Not everybody wants to
622
00:32:52.140 --> 00:32:54.910
and not everybody should. Leadership is the same. Everyone has
623
00:32:54.950 --> 00:32:57.470
the capacity to be a leader. Not everybody wants to
624
00:32:57.509 --> 00:33:00.190
and not everybody should. And the reason to become a
625
00:33:00.210 --> 00:33:02.170
leader is the exact same reason to become a parent
626
00:33:02.690 --> 00:33:06.529
because you actually want to see others grow. You actually
627
00:33:06.549 --> 00:33:08.299
want to commit your life to a life of service.
628
00:33:08.710 --> 00:33:12.119
Being a parent is unbelievably hard work. It's 24-7. It's
629
00:33:12.160 --> 00:33:14.900
not 9-5. Leadership is the same. Your job is 9-5.
630
00:33:14.960 --> 00:33:18.900
Leadership is 24-7. It's accepting a new responsibility. I'm no
631
00:33:18.940 --> 00:33:22.039
longer responsible for the results. I'm no longer responsible for
632
00:33:22.079 --> 00:33:25.200
getting my job done. I'm now responsible for taking care
633
00:33:25.220 --> 00:33:27.640
of the people who are responsible for the results. I'm
634
00:33:27.680 --> 00:33:30.200
now responsible for the people who are responsible for getting
635
00:33:30.220 --> 00:33:33.049
the job done. It's an entirely different skill set. Just
636
00:33:33.089 --> 00:33:35.329
like becoming a parent is an entirely different skill set
637
00:33:35.369 --> 00:33:38.269
and an entirely different way of life. If you like
638
00:33:38.349 --> 00:33:41.549
the idea of taking care of others, then you may
639
00:33:41.650 --> 00:33:44.589
be a candidate to be a leader. Some people fall
640
00:33:44.630 --> 00:33:46.990
into it. They don't think that they would be good leaders.
641
00:33:47.069 --> 00:33:50.690
And when given the position, when given the opportunity, they
642
00:33:50.750 --> 00:33:54.109
actually thrive. They embrace it. Just like some people have
643
00:33:54.210 --> 00:33:56.930
kids and they're deathly afraid. One of my best friends
644
00:33:56.990 --> 00:33:58.990
called me up the night before his wife was due,
645
00:33:59.269 --> 00:34:02.150
freaking out. He's become one of the most remarkable fathers
646
00:34:02.210 --> 00:34:07.690
I've ever met. This happens. People actually, when they find
647
00:34:07.730 --> 00:34:10.619
themselves with the opportunity to lead, and again, this has
648
00:34:10.739 --> 00:34:13.099
nothing to do with rank or position. You can be
649
00:34:13.239 --> 00:34:15.739
the lowest level employee and still be the best leader
650
00:34:15.780 --> 00:34:17.920
on the team because you've made the choice to look
651
00:34:17.980 --> 00:34:20.860
after the people on the team. That's what leadership is.
652
00:34:20.960 --> 00:34:23.639
Leadership is not about being in charge. It's about taking
653
00:34:23.679 --> 00:34:26.909
care of those in your charge. And the choice to
654
00:34:26.949 --> 00:34:29.130
do it is one of the most gratifying things you
655
00:34:29.150 --> 00:34:32.010
can ever do in the world. There's a wonderful leader
656
00:34:32.030 --> 00:34:34.010
I know by the name of Colonel Dede Halfhill. She's
657
00:34:34.030 --> 00:34:36.909
in the United States Air Force. She had an amazing opportunity.
658
00:34:36.989 --> 00:34:39.090
She was thrust into a leadership position when she was
659
00:34:39.130 --> 00:34:44.389
deployed to Balad Air Base in Iraq. And she went
660
00:34:44.429 --> 00:34:48.659
through a whole journey of self-discovery. But when she came back,
661
00:34:48.900 --> 00:34:51.300
I sat down with her within a week after she
662
00:34:51.840 --> 00:34:54.320
got back to America. And I asked her, how was it?
663
00:34:54.420 --> 00:34:56.659
She told me the story and all the ups and downs.
664
00:34:56.980 --> 00:34:58.659
And then at the end of her story, she started
665
00:34:58.719 --> 00:35:02.610
crying and said, I've never experienced a joy so great
666
00:35:03.090 --> 00:35:06.849
as seeing those, seeing others achieve things they never thought
667
00:35:06.889 --> 00:35:10.510
they were able to do. That's the reason to become
668
00:35:10.550 --> 00:35:12.670
a leader. Hmm.
669
00:35:13.920 --> 00:35:18.489
Thank you, man. Simon, as always, really appreciate it. Look
670
00:35:18.510 --> 00:35:19.769
forward to the next one. Where would you send my
671
00:35:19.809 --> 00:35:21.369
listeners to learn more about you online?
672
00:35:22.949 --> 00:35:28.550
I'm in all the usual places. It feels weird.
673
00:35:28.730 --> 00:35:30.469
Just so you know, it feels kind of weird going
674
00:35:30.510 --> 00:35:33.449
to that after I'm just sitting here forgetting that I'm
675
00:35:33.469 --> 00:35:36.909
supposed to talk, listening in a Simon Sinek trance. That's
676
00:35:37.280 --> 00:35:40.820
legitimately how I feel right now. I do have to
677
00:35:40.840 --> 00:35:43.719
thank you for that. Just Google Simon Sinek. You'll find him.
678
00:35:43.920 --> 00:35:47.239
I'm so appreciative of you, man. Thank you for being here.
679
00:35:48.650 --> 00:35:50.409
My pleasure. Thanks for having me. Thanks for helping me
680
00:35:50.429 --> 00:35:52.170
spread the message. I appreciate it. All right, man.
681
00:35:52.289 --> 00:35:52.750
I'll talk to you.
682
00:35:54.949 --> 00:35:55.329
Wow.
683
00:35:55.949 --> 00:35:58.789
I was in a trance there towards the end of
684
00:35:58.809 --> 00:36:03.050
that conversation. It's almost like he has this hypnotic voice
685
00:36:03.889 --> 00:36:06.590
that makes you forget everything else that's going on and
686
00:36:06.630 --> 00:36:09.469
you pay attention. And I think there's a learning there
687
00:36:10.409 --> 00:36:17.429
that Simon's messages are always wrapped with these incredible real-life stories.
688
00:36:18.530 --> 00:36:20.409
And not only does he tell you to become a
689
00:36:20.429 --> 00:36:23.530
great storyteller, but he models that behavior. And that's one
690
00:36:23.570 --> 00:36:26.800
we all can work on getting better through repetition and
691
00:36:26.880 --> 00:36:30.820
practice and study and working with others. I love that
692
00:36:30.880 --> 00:36:34.380
part of the talk. And then infinite leaders don't have competitors.
693
00:36:34.440 --> 00:36:38.090
They have rivals. I thought this was a unique and
694
00:36:38.230 --> 00:36:42.510
useful way to view your work in the world because
695
00:36:42.650 --> 00:36:46.530
playing the comparison game and feeling like everyone is competitive
696
00:36:46.550 --> 00:36:48.949
and there's not enough to go around can be so
697
00:36:49.030 --> 00:36:52.610
damaging and just, quite frankly, not a very happy way
698
00:36:52.650 --> 00:36:56.610
to live. So I liked that spin. And then there's
699
00:36:56.650 --> 00:37:00.570
an entire book section of self-help, but not one that
700
00:37:00.630 --> 00:37:05.340
says help others. Really knocked me back. And it helped
701
00:37:05.440 --> 00:37:08.659
also answer his question of why lead. And that's because
702
00:37:08.679 --> 00:37:11.199
you want to see others grow. If you care to
703
00:37:11.219 --> 00:37:14.880
see others succeed, that's why you lead. I hope you
704
00:37:14.920 --> 00:37:17.039
enjoyed this one as much as I did.
705
00:37:17.059 --> 00:37:18.019
I absolutely.
706
00:37:18.519 --> 00:37:22.239
Love these conversations with Simon. If you did, I'd greatly
707
00:37:22.260 --> 00:37:25.639
appreciate it if you would spread the message one person
708
00:37:25.880 --> 00:37:28.360
at a time. Word of mouth marketing is as powerful
709
00:37:28.570 --> 00:37:31.789
as it gets. Tell somebody who perhaps has never listened
710
00:37:31.809 --> 00:37:35.150
to a podcast before, check out this episode of The
711
00:37:35.210 --> 00:37:39.769
Learning Leader Show with the legendary Simon Sinek. It could
712
00:37:40.409 --> 00:37:43.510
help you. Thank you once again for continuing to give
713
00:37:43.570 --> 00:37:45.880
me the opportunity to do what I love on a
714
00:37:46.039 --> 00:37:51.199
daily basis. For that, I will forever be grateful. Thank
715
00:37:51.219 --> 00:37:52.599
you so much. Talk with you next week.
716
00:37:52.739 --> 00:37:52.969
Can't wait.
717
00:37:57.489 --> 00:38:00.070
Okay, thank you so much. I was really getting into
718
00:38:00.090 --> 00:38:04.150
trance there. I really appreciate just how much, it's obvious
719
00:38:04.170 --> 00:38:06.530
how much you care and the effort you put into it.
720
00:38:06.690 --> 00:38:09.349
And for that, I'm just so grateful, man. I really am.
721
00:38:09.369 --> 00:38:11.190
You could easily mail it in and still be great,
722
00:38:11.469 --> 00:38:13.469
and you just don't do that. And that means a
723
00:38:13.510 --> 00:38:14.809
lot to me. So thank you, and it'll mean a
724
00:38:14.809 --> 00:38:15.869
lot to my listeners as well.
725
00:38:16.710 --> 00:38:18.630
Thank you again. And I mean that sincerely. Thank you
726
00:38:18.670 --> 00:38:20.750
for giving me a platform to help share these ideas.
727
00:38:20.789 --> 00:38:22.710
I really appreciate it. Always, always.
728
00:38:22.869 --> 00:38:24.650
All right, man. Until next time. Thanks, Simon.
729
00:38:24.869 --> 00:38:25.550
Okay, bye.