223: Kim Malone Scott - Using Radical Candor To Be A Great Boss

WEBVTT
1
00:00:00.720 --> 00:00:04.599
I had recently started a job at Google, and I
2
00:00:04.620 --> 00:00:08.439
was working for Sheryl Sandberg, and she had me give
3
00:00:08.500 --> 00:00:12.949
a presentation to Google's founders and the CEO about the
4
00:00:13.029 --> 00:00:16.550
AdSense business, the online AdSense business that I was leading.
5
00:00:17.530 --> 00:00:21.789
And I walked into the room, and there was Larry,
6
00:00:21.929 --> 00:00:27.050
or Sergey, rather, in his toe shoes on an elliptical
7
00:00:27.109 --> 00:00:30.280
trainer in the corner of the room. And there was
8
00:00:30.399 --> 00:00:32.979
Eric Schmidt, the CEO at the time. It was like
9
00:00:33.020 --> 00:00:35.719
his brain had been plugged into his computer. He was
10
00:00:35.799 --> 00:00:39.649
so deep in his email. And like any normal person
11
00:00:39.689 --> 00:00:42.390
in this situation, I felt a little nervous. How in
12
00:00:42.429 --> 00:00:44.450
the world was I going to get their attention?
13
00:00:48.890 --> 00:00:51.409
Hey, and welcome to The Learning Leader Show. I am
14
00:00:51.570 --> 00:00:54.409
Ryan Hawk. Thanks so much for being here. It is
15
00:00:54.520 --> 00:00:59.960
Mindful Monday. Go to learningleader.com. Enter your email address. Receive
16
00:00:59.979 --> 00:01:04.420
the latest trends, topics, conversation pieces every Monday morning, 9
17
00:01:04.420 --> 00:01:07.769
o'clock Eastern. Join thousands of other learning leaders from all
18
00:01:07.829 --> 00:01:10.310
over the world to further the dialogue. We'd love to
19
00:01:10.349 --> 00:01:14.689
have you. Learningleader.com. Now, on to tonight's featured leader. It's
20
00:01:14.709 --> 00:01:17.109
with best-selling author Kim Levin.
21
00:01:17.689 --> 00:01:21.099
Scott. Her most recent book is titled Radical Candor.
22
00:01:21.200 --> 00:01:24.760
Prior to that, Kim was a CEO coach at Dropbox, Twitter,
23
00:01:24.840 --> 00:01:27.579
and several other Silicon Valley companies. She was a member
24
00:01:27.620 --> 00:01:31.159
of the faculty at Apple University and developed a course
25
00:01:31.219 --> 00:01:35.620
titled Managing at Apple. She also worked at Google directly
26
00:01:35.700 --> 00:01:39.189
with Sheryl Sandberg. A few of the topics we got into,
27
00:01:39.769 --> 00:01:43.530
as a leader, why you need to care personally and
28
00:01:44.310 --> 00:01:49.010
challenge directly. Then how to create a culture of trust,
29
00:01:49.450 --> 00:01:54.750
both at work and at home. And then fantastic advice
30
00:01:55.450 --> 00:01:59.010
on how to have a meaningful career and specifically the
31
00:01:59.109 --> 00:02:02.209
conversations you need to have and how you have them
32
00:02:02.269 --> 00:02:04.870
and who they should be with. Ladies and gentlemen, you're
33
00:02:04.890 --> 00:02:11.949
going to love this one with Kim Scott. Kim, um,
34
00:02:12.639 --> 00:02:17.219
Such a highly requested guest for many of my listeners
35
00:02:17.939 --> 00:02:19.199
on the Learning Leader Show.
36
00:02:19.280 --> 00:02:20.039
So welcome.
37
00:02:20.590 --> 00:02:23.719
Well, thank you, Ryan. I'm honored and excited to chat
38
00:02:23.759 --> 00:02:24.090
with you.
39
00:02:24.310 --> 00:02:27.349
As I told you, it's great when someone who I
40
00:02:27.389 --> 00:02:31.629
have a huge interest in, someone who I love their work,
41
00:02:32.710 --> 00:02:35.870
it marries with the fans and listeners emailing me at
42
00:02:35.909 --> 00:02:38.229
the same time and now we're able to make it happen.
43
00:02:38.289 --> 00:02:40.520
So I was really excited and looking forward to this one.
44
00:02:40.539 --> 00:02:43.000
I have a ton of notes and thoughts on your
45
00:02:43.080 --> 00:02:45.159
great work, and I'm looking forward to getting started. So
46
00:02:45.180 --> 00:02:47.919
I have to say, so you talk a lot about
47
00:02:47.939 --> 00:02:52.460
and written a lot about being a great boss. And
48
00:02:52.500 --> 00:02:56.120
as I told you, one of the number one emails
49
00:02:56.189 --> 00:03:00.069
I receive from people is about the fact that they
50
00:03:00.129 --> 00:03:01.349
don't have a great boss.
51
00:03:01.610 --> 00:03:04.590
But I'm curious, though, to get this one kicked off.
52
00:03:05.830 --> 00:03:07.870
From all the people you've been around, you've had CEO
53
00:03:08.349 --> 00:03:11.349
coaches for you, you've been a CEO coach for some
54
00:03:11.669 --> 00:03:15.669
really successful companies, you've spent time around a number of
55
00:03:15.750 --> 00:03:19.370
people who have sustained excellence, a number of leaders, a number.
56
00:03:19.219 --> 00:03:20.340
Of bosses who have done that.
57
00:03:21.099 --> 00:03:24.020
What are some of the common themes of the greatest
58
00:03:24.280 --> 00:03:25.740
bosses you've been around?
59
00:03:26.879 --> 00:03:30.840
The greatest bosses that I have been around know how
60
00:03:30.879 --> 00:03:34.099
to do two things for their employees. They know how
61
00:03:34.139 --> 00:03:37.370
to care about them not just as employees, but as
62
00:03:37.449 --> 00:03:40.650
human beings at a very deep and personal level. At
63
00:03:40.689 --> 00:03:44.759
the same time, they're not so worried about hurting the
64
00:03:44.800 --> 00:03:48.280
person's feelings that they won't tell them when they've screwed up.
65
00:03:48.939 --> 00:03:52.620
And they're not so worried about being seen. They're not
66
00:03:52.659 --> 00:03:56.370
worried about being liked. They care personally, but they don't
67
00:03:56.409 --> 00:03:59.750
worry about being liked. They're willing to piss people off.
68
00:03:59.810 --> 00:04:03.530
They're willing to challenge them very directly. And it sounds
69
00:04:03.789 --> 00:04:07.400
so sort of almost banal to say that because like
70
00:04:07.460 --> 00:04:10.780
who starts out their career thinking, I don't care about
71
00:04:10.840 --> 00:04:12.819
people at all, so I'm going to be a great boss.
72
00:04:12.900 --> 00:04:15.710
You know, that's not what moves people down on the
73
00:04:15.759 --> 00:04:19.810
care personally dimension. And who starts out their career thinking,
74
00:04:19.829 --> 00:04:22.589
you know, I'm not going to tell somebody when they've
75
00:04:22.629 --> 00:04:24.649
screwed up. I'm just going to let them make the
76
00:04:24.689 --> 00:04:27.230
same mistake over and over and over again and then
77
00:04:27.310 --> 00:04:30.459
fire them for it. Like that's not the intention that that.
78
00:04:31.040 --> 00:04:34.459
that managers have when they become managers. And yet it happens.
79
00:04:34.560 --> 00:04:36.540
Both those things happen all too often.
80
00:04:37.660 --> 00:04:37.920
Yeah.
81
00:04:38.480 --> 00:04:42.639
Interestingly, I have found great bosses in my career, Kim,
82
00:04:42.740 --> 00:04:48.639
who I deeply respected, who were not afraid to let
83
00:04:48.660 --> 00:04:50.620
me know when I messed up and tried to help
84
00:04:50.660 --> 00:04:54.519
me and coach and also cared about me personally. And
85
00:04:54.560 --> 00:04:59.060
so I, in effect, I love them and I realize
86
00:04:59.100 --> 00:05:01.420
that they were willing to challenge me. So can you
87
00:05:01.480 --> 00:05:05.060
be both highly respected and highly liked?
88
00:05:05.620 --> 00:05:07.000
And should you care as a boss?
89
00:05:07.800 --> 00:05:11.509
You can be. And when you're really lucky, you are.
90
00:05:11.529 --> 00:05:15.290
When you're really lucky, not only are you liked by
91
00:05:15.730 --> 00:05:18.290
your team, you love your team and they love you.
92
00:05:18.930 --> 00:05:22.009
But if you set that as your goal, by the way,
93
00:05:22.089 --> 00:05:24.230
when I say love, I mean it in the appropriate
94
00:05:24.269 --> 00:05:26.389
sense of the word. I'm not talking about things that
95
00:05:26.430 --> 00:05:27.709
destroy marriages.
96
00:05:27.930 --> 00:05:28.100
Me too.
97
00:05:28.720 --> 00:05:31.800
But we do spend more time at work than in
98
00:05:32.180 --> 00:05:34.670
any other part of our lives. So we may as
99
00:05:34.730 --> 00:05:38.370
well have relationships that have real meaning for us at work.
100
00:05:39.089 --> 00:05:41.029
And in fact, I would say at the very heart
101
00:05:41.129 --> 00:05:44.550
of being a good boss is a good relationship with
102
00:05:44.610 --> 00:05:49.970
each employee. The problem comes when you start to seek
103
00:05:50.189 --> 00:05:54.930
popularity as a leader, as a boss, rather than doing
104
00:05:54.959 --> 00:05:57.329
the right thing for your people. There's a big difference.
105
00:05:57.470 --> 00:06:00.730
This is true, by the way, in any relationship, not
106
00:06:00.769 --> 00:06:05.230
just in the boss-employee relationship. When you put how the
107
00:06:05.329 --> 00:06:10.069
other person is going to feel about you ahead of
108
00:06:11.670 --> 00:06:15.350
your obligation to tell them when their work isn't good enough,
109
00:06:16.269 --> 00:06:18.829
and that they need to improve it, then all of
110
00:06:18.889 --> 00:06:21.829
a sudden you're not worried about the other person. You're
111
00:06:21.870 --> 00:06:25.329
not caring about the other person. You're caring about your
112
00:06:25.370 --> 00:06:30.839
own reputation. And that's what's so dangerous. Johnny Ive tells
113
00:06:30.899 --> 00:06:34.259
a really good story about this. He said that Johnny Ive,
114
00:06:35.220 --> 00:06:39.620
who's the chief design officer at Apple, said that one
115
00:06:39.680 --> 00:06:42.610
time he was doing a design review with Steve Jobs
116
00:06:43.089 --> 00:06:47.810
and the team had not prepared adequately. The work wasn't
117
00:06:47.860 --> 00:06:52.019
good enough. And Steve said so in no uncertain terms.
118
00:06:52.540 --> 00:06:56.000
And after the meeting, Johnny said, why did you have
119
00:06:56.060 --> 00:07:01.060
to be so harsh on the team? And Steve said, well,
120
00:07:01.079 --> 00:07:03.709
why didn't you, did you think the work was good enough?
121
00:07:03.790 --> 00:07:05.990
And Johnny said, no. And he said, why didn't you
122
00:07:06.069 --> 00:07:10.350
tell them? You are just vain. You wanted to be liked.
123
00:07:11.250 --> 00:07:14.189
And Johnny kind of shook his head when he told
124
00:07:14.209 --> 00:07:17.689
the story and said, I was terribly cross because I
125
00:07:17.750 --> 00:07:21.120
realized that Steve was right. And this happens to all
126
00:07:21.139 --> 00:07:23.959
of us. I mean, we do. It's a fundamental human
127
00:07:24.000 --> 00:07:27.620
desire to be liked. But sometimes that desire gets in
128
00:07:27.660 --> 00:07:30.319
your way of doing what's best for the other person
129
00:07:30.379 --> 00:07:32.689
long term. There's sort of a short term, long term
130
00:07:32.730 --> 00:07:35.569
problem here. In the short term, you may say something
131
00:07:35.610 --> 00:07:38.850
to somebody that stings a little bit or even really
132
00:07:38.930 --> 00:07:41.370
upsets them. But it's important for them to know.
133
00:07:43.980 --> 00:07:47.420
You share a story in the book about something I
134
00:07:47.459 --> 00:07:51.980
personally went through where, particularly when I was a newer manager,
135
00:07:52.699 --> 00:07:57.639
boss of people, I wanted to be respected and liked.
136
00:07:57.680 --> 00:08:01.259
I just brought it up already. And sometimes you skew.
137
00:08:01.370 --> 00:08:04.649
And if you're newer, I think this might be more common,
138
00:08:04.689 --> 00:08:08.149
I guess. But you skew on the side of Not
139
00:08:08.209 --> 00:08:11.439
wanting to make them upset with you as Johnny. I
140
00:08:11.459 --> 00:08:13.399
believe some people do. Others just want to come in
141
00:08:13.420 --> 00:08:15.920
there and turn the place upside down, which.
142
00:08:15.839 --> 00:08:16.360
Is another part.
143
00:08:16.879 --> 00:08:20.029
And so I learned quickly that I had to learn
144
00:08:20.050 --> 00:08:22.050
this from others who helped me, who had been there
145
00:08:22.069 --> 00:08:25.930
before me, that feedback truly is a gift that you
146
00:08:25.970 --> 00:08:28.399
need to be giving on a regular basis. And sometimes
147
00:08:28.480 --> 00:08:33.240
it's critical feedback. And that is what they deserve. And
148
00:08:33.340 --> 00:08:36.279
as the boss, you need to give that. And I
149
00:08:36.820 --> 00:08:39.299
actually still mess this up from time to time, I know,
150
00:08:40.000 --> 00:08:42.960
because you feel like I want to.
151
00:08:42.940 --> 00:08:45.639
Be a good dude, I want to be liked.
152
00:08:46.940 --> 00:08:50.750
But in reality, they need that tough feedback to help
153
00:08:50.809 --> 00:08:53.450
them improve. Can you share the story about when you
154
00:08:53.610 --> 00:08:57.169
made this mistake earlier in your career as a new CEO?
155
00:08:57.909 --> 00:09:01.610
Sure, absolutely. So I had just hired this guy. We'll
156
00:09:01.649 --> 00:09:05.289
call him Bob. And I really liked Bob. He was funny.
157
00:09:05.309 --> 00:09:08.279
He was charming. He would do stuff like one time
158
00:09:08.320 --> 00:09:11.539
we were at a manager off-site and we were playing
159
00:09:11.639 --> 00:09:15.820
one of those ridiculous get-to-know-you games that takes forever. Everybody
160
00:09:15.879 --> 00:09:18.039
hates it, but nobody wants to be the jerk who
161
00:09:18.080 --> 00:09:23.269
says this is an utter waste of time. And so
162
00:09:23.429 --> 00:09:27.269
Bob said... you know, I've got a great idea and
163
00:09:27.330 --> 00:09:30.240
it'll be way faster. Why don't we just go around
164
00:09:30.279 --> 00:09:34.000
the room and tell what candy our parents used when
165
00:09:34.059 --> 00:09:37.389
potty training us? Weird, but fast. So we all did it.
166
00:09:37.759 --> 00:09:39.960
And then for the next 10 months, every time there
167
00:09:40.000 --> 00:09:42.740
was a tense moment in a meeting, Bob would whip
168
00:09:42.820 --> 00:09:45.039
out just the right piece of candy for the right
169
00:09:45.080 --> 00:09:48.610
person at the right moment. So anyway, we found Bob
170
00:09:48.769 --> 00:09:52.330
charming and funny. We liked working with Bob. One problem.
171
00:09:53.350 --> 00:09:57.820
Bob was doing terrible work, absolutely terrible work. I couldn't
172
00:09:57.860 --> 00:10:01.519
understand it because he had this amazing resume. He had
173
00:10:01.840 --> 00:10:04.740
all these great accomplishments under his belt. But when he
174
00:10:04.779 --> 00:10:07.610
would hand something into me, there would be shame in
175
00:10:07.679 --> 00:10:11.470
his eyes. He knew it wasn't good enough. I learned later, actually,
176
00:10:11.529 --> 00:10:14.649
the problem was that Bob was smoking pot in the
177
00:10:14.669 --> 00:10:17.269
bathroom a couple of times a day, which maybe explained
178
00:10:17.289 --> 00:10:19.710
all that candy. But anyway, I didn't know any of
179
00:10:19.750 --> 00:10:21.769
that at the time. All I knew was that Bob
180
00:10:21.789 --> 00:10:24.149
would hand something in to me with shame in his eyes.
181
00:10:24.710 --> 00:10:27.860
And just trying to be nice, just trying to buck
182
00:10:27.940 --> 00:10:31.740
Bob up, I would say, Bob, you know, you're so awesome.
183
00:10:31.759 --> 00:10:34.299
The whole team loves working with you. You're so smart.
184
00:10:34.679 --> 00:10:37.200
This is a great start, but maybe you could make
185
00:10:37.220 --> 00:10:40.519
it a little better. And of course, he never did.
186
00:10:41.399 --> 00:10:47.250
And eventually the inevitable happened. And I realized that if
187
00:10:47.330 --> 00:10:49.889
I didn't fire Bob, I was going to lose half
188
00:10:49.929 --> 00:10:52.389
my team because they were all having to correct his
189
00:10:52.450 --> 00:10:55.799
work and fix his mistakes and really redo a lot
190
00:10:55.820 --> 00:10:58.399
of what he should have been doing. And so I
191
00:10:58.480 --> 00:11:02.139
sat down to tell Bob how things stood, to have
192
00:11:02.159 --> 00:11:05.659
this conversation that I should have begun 10 months previously
193
00:11:05.679 --> 00:11:09.309
and And when I had finished, Bob pushed his chair
194
00:11:09.350 --> 00:11:11.769
back from the table. He looked at me right in
195
00:11:11.809 --> 00:11:14.490
the eye and he said, why didn't you tell me?
196
00:11:16.090 --> 00:11:18.809
And as that question was going around in my head
197
00:11:18.870 --> 00:11:21.889
with no good answer, he looked at me again and
198
00:11:21.929 --> 00:11:25.710
he said, why didn't anyone tell me? I thought you
199
00:11:25.730 --> 00:11:29.529
all cared about me. And that to me was the
200
00:11:29.649 --> 00:11:33.590
worst moment of my career because I realized that I
201
00:11:33.649 --> 00:11:37.000
had failed Bob in a bunch of different ways. I
202
00:11:37.029 --> 00:11:40.799
had failed to solicit feedback from him. Maybe I was
203
00:11:40.840 --> 00:11:43.500
doing something that was driving him so crazy he was
204
00:11:43.539 --> 00:11:45.940
forced to toke up in the bathroom. But I didn't
205
00:11:45.960 --> 00:11:47.679
know about it because I never asked him. I never
206
00:11:47.899 --> 00:11:50.799
asked him to criticize me. And I never asked him
207
00:11:50.899 --> 00:11:53.220
to praise what was going well. So I had no
208
00:11:53.299 --> 00:11:56.820
idea what was going on in Bob's mind. I also
209
00:11:56.960 --> 00:12:01.230
failed to give him praise that would really let him
210
00:12:01.259 --> 00:12:03.470
know what was genuinely good. The kind of praise I
211
00:12:03.490 --> 00:12:05.590
gave him was really just a head fake or some
212
00:12:05.629 --> 00:12:09.049
kind of emotional salve. And I failed to tell him
213
00:12:09.070 --> 00:12:12.870
when his work wasn't nearly good enough. And probably worst
214
00:12:12.950 --> 00:12:17.340
of all, I had failed to create the kind of
215
00:12:17.440 --> 00:12:20.899
environment in which everyone would tell Bob what was truly good,
216
00:12:21.299 --> 00:12:23.759
but also tell Bob when he was going off the rails.
217
00:12:24.379 --> 00:12:28.909
And because I had made these mistakes, I'm now firing Bob.
218
00:12:29.389 --> 00:12:32.490
And that's the worst thing about being a manager is
219
00:12:32.529 --> 00:12:35.409
that nobody really teaches you what to do. And so
220
00:12:35.450 --> 00:12:39.039
you learn your biggest mistakes on the backs of other
221
00:12:39.100 --> 00:12:42.379
people And that's really what prompted me to come up
222
00:12:42.440 --> 00:12:47.110
with this radical candor framework to help people avoid making
223
00:12:47.139 --> 00:12:49.870
the mistake that I made. So let me describe. Can
224
00:12:49.909 --> 00:12:51.929
I take a couple of minutes and describe the framework
225
00:12:52.009 --> 00:12:54.190
so that other people can avoid doing what I did
226
00:12:54.230 --> 00:12:57.889
to Bob? Please. So the framework is this. And this
227
00:12:58.070 --> 00:13:00.730
goes for all communication at work, by the way, whether
228
00:13:00.789 --> 00:13:03.750
you're talking to your boss, your peer or your employee.
229
00:13:03.830 --> 00:13:06.009
It works up, down and sideways. But just think about
230
00:13:06.049 --> 00:13:08.990
it like this. When you're developing a relationship at work,
231
00:13:09.490 --> 00:13:12.299
you want to be radically candid. You want to both
232
00:13:12.440 --> 00:13:16.639
care and challenge at the same time. But that's hard.
233
00:13:16.940 --> 00:13:20.720
That's really hard. To make it a little bit easier,
234
00:13:20.779 --> 00:13:23.659
let's think about what happens when you fail on one
235
00:13:23.700 --> 00:13:28.519
dimension or another. So when you are so worried about
236
00:13:28.580 --> 00:13:32.490
somebody's feelings, as I was in this Bob case, that
237
00:13:32.529 --> 00:13:35.629
you fail to challenge them directly. You fail to tell
238
00:13:35.669 --> 00:13:38.730
them what's truly good and what's truly bad and what
239
00:13:38.769 --> 00:13:42.789
they're doing. I call that ruinous empathy. And that's the
240
00:13:42.909 --> 00:13:46.490
most common mistake that we make at work, both as
241
00:13:46.590 --> 00:13:50.360
employees and as managers. We do it to everybody. And
242
00:13:50.379 --> 00:13:56.399
when you fail on both dimensions at the same time
243
00:13:56.559 --> 00:13:59.529
when you neither care nor challenge. And this was part
244
00:13:59.570 --> 00:14:01.850
of what happened with Bob too. Part of the reason
245
00:14:01.889 --> 00:14:05.549
why I was so careful not to upset Bob was
246
00:14:05.590 --> 00:14:09.080
that I was afraid if Bob sort of started to
247
00:14:09.120 --> 00:14:12.519
cry or something in the office, Everybody would think I
248
00:14:12.559 --> 00:14:15.379
was a terrible person. Everybody would think I was some
249
00:14:15.399 --> 00:14:18.259
kind of, you know, the the bitchy boss or whatever.
250
00:14:18.279 --> 00:14:21.350
And I didn't want to be that. And so that
251
00:14:21.389 --> 00:14:24.570
was also part of the reason why I didn't challenge Bob,
252
00:14:24.629 --> 00:14:26.690
not because I cared so much about him, but because
253
00:14:26.730 --> 00:14:29.809
I was worried about my own reputation and that mistake,
254
00:14:29.929 --> 00:14:32.649
which we all make from time to time. It's perfectly
255
00:14:32.850 --> 00:14:35.049
human to do it. You just have to try to
256
00:14:35.110 --> 00:14:39.070
avoid it. That mistake I call manipulative insincerity. I was
257
00:14:39.230 --> 00:14:42.240
not being sincere when I told Bob how I felt
258
00:14:42.299 --> 00:14:45.320
about his work, what I thought about his work. And then,
259
00:14:45.519 --> 00:14:48.279
of course, the other mistake that we make, we all
260
00:14:48.320 --> 00:14:51.379
make from time to time, is when we challenge but
261
00:14:51.419 --> 00:14:54.129
we fail to show we care. And that I call
262
00:14:54.250 --> 00:14:57.690
obnoxious aggression. And so when you're thinking about radical candor,
263
00:14:57.730 --> 00:15:01.049
it's really important to understand, not to judge people, don't
264
00:15:01.110 --> 00:15:04.549
use these terms to judge people, but use these terms
265
00:15:04.649 --> 00:15:09.259
to understand people. where conversations are headed. Are you moving
266
00:15:09.320 --> 00:15:13.299
towards radical candor or are you pulling your punches and
267
00:15:13.340 --> 00:15:18.289
moving towards ruinous empathy or even manipulative insincerity? Are you
268
00:15:18.370 --> 00:15:22.370
punching so hard that you're moving towards obnoxious aggression? And
269
00:15:22.409 --> 00:15:24.970
do you need to stop and attend to the other
270
00:15:25.029 --> 00:15:28.370
person's emotional reaction? Those are the questions I want to
271
00:15:28.409 --> 00:15:29.789
help people ask themselves.
272
00:15:31.179 --> 00:15:34.419
You also talk about, it's not about hierarchy or status
273
00:15:34.539 --> 00:15:37.159
or title. You need to have this go up and down,
274
00:15:37.220 --> 00:15:41.649
left and right. How do you go about, I'm thinking, Kim,
275
00:15:41.690 --> 00:15:43.049
one of the things I love about this show is
276
00:15:43.090 --> 00:15:46.990
that people often learn directly from our guests and they're
277
00:15:47.029 --> 00:15:49.950
able to implement and execute right away. They don't just
278
00:15:50.409 --> 00:15:52.830
have happy talk or happy listening in their car on
279
00:15:52.850 --> 00:15:56.210
their way to work. They can implement something and it
280
00:15:56.250 --> 00:15:59.620
could change their life, change their job. So I know
281
00:15:59.639 --> 00:16:02.110
this is a big one, but how do you create
282
00:16:02.149 --> 00:16:07.789
that culture of trust to where you empower everyone to
283
00:16:07.830 --> 00:16:11.529
show radical candor up, down, left, right, everywhere you look
284
00:16:11.590 --> 00:16:15.980
without people coming off as jerks or getting or some
285
00:16:16.000 --> 00:16:19.100
people have told me before, stay in your lane, that
286
00:16:19.120 --> 00:16:20.000
type of talk.
287
00:16:20.159 --> 00:16:22.419
How do you create a culture of that?
288
00:16:23.360 --> 00:16:26.480
So creating a culture of radical candor, the good news
289
00:16:26.740 --> 00:16:29.080
is it can be, you can do it top down.
290
00:16:29.259 --> 00:16:32.600
You can also do it bottoms up, right? So if
291
00:16:32.879 --> 00:16:37.240
you're sort of a new employee in an organization and
292
00:16:37.340 --> 00:16:41.279
you have a boss who you think is not being
293
00:16:41.340 --> 00:16:46.000
radically candid, you have some power in this situation to
294
00:16:46.070 --> 00:16:50.350
change it. And so whether you are the boss or
295
00:16:50.409 --> 00:16:53.610
the employee or a peer, the steps that you want
296
00:16:53.649 --> 00:16:57.269
to think through are basically the same. You want to
297
00:16:57.429 --> 00:17:03.090
start by asking for feedback. Don't dish it out until
298
00:17:03.129 --> 00:17:05.750
you prove you can take it. Lead by example, whether
299
00:17:05.789 --> 00:17:10.200
you're the leader or whether you're the employee. And so
300
00:17:10.220 --> 00:17:14.059
the simplest way to think about asking for feedback is
301
00:17:14.160 --> 00:17:17.660
to take the following four steps. First of all, come
302
00:17:17.720 --> 00:17:22.460
up with a go-to question. If you say to somebody,
303
00:17:22.539 --> 00:17:24.920
do you have any feedback for me? I can already
304
00:17:24.980 --> 00:17:27.279
tell you what the answer is. Oh, no, everything's fine.
305
00:17:27.299 --> 00:17:27.859
Yeah, you're good.
306
00:17:27.880 --> 00:17:31.839
Yeah, good. Yeah, people hate giving feedback. I knew that
307
00:17:31.940 --> 00:17:34.299
when I started this book. And after I've written it,
308
00:17:34.559 --> 00:17:37.519
I've learned even more how much people hate giving feedback.
309
00:17:37.599 --> 00:17:40.680
So you've got to really come up with a question
310
00:17:40.720 --> 00:17:42.930
that's going to make it hard for them to say, no,
311
00:17:44.349 --> 00:17:47.490
everything's fine. One question that I like to ask is,
312
00:17:48.240 --> 00:17:51.750
Is there anything I could do or stop doing that
313
00:17:51.789 --> 00:17:55.650
would make it easier to work for me or with me? Now,
314
00:17:57.150 --> 00:18:00.650
not everybody can ask that question. I worked with the
315
00:18:00.750 --> 00:18:04.250
CEO of OpenTable, and she said I could never ask
316
00:18:04.289 --> 00:18:07.200
that question. The question I like to ask is, Tell
317
00:18:07.240 --> 00:18:10.480
me why I'm smoking crack, right? So there's different ways
318
00:18:10.519 --> 00:18:11.140
to ask the question.
319
00:18:11.160 --> 00:18:12.440
Or is there a way to make it an open-ended
320
00:18:12.480 --> 00:18:14.680
question to say, what could I be doing to make
321
00:18:14.720 --> 00:18:17.779
it better or easier to work with me as opposed
322
00:18:17.819 --> 00:18:19.240
to a yes or no?
323
00:18:20.579 --> 00:18:25.079
Absolutely. Absolutely. That's a great suggestion. What could I do
324
00:18:25.160 --> 00:18:27.420
or stop doing that would make it easier to work
325
00:18:27.460 --> 00:18:27.720
with me?
326
00:18:27.900 --> 00:18:31.569
A lot of good companies, too, and sometimes I've employed
327
00:18:31.609 --> 00:18:34.369
an HR partner to help with this, where you can
328
00:18:34.390 --> 00:18:37.329
do start, stop, continue exercises with the boss, not in
329
00:18:37.369 --> 00:18:39.410
the room. And it'd be awesome if you could do
330
00:18:39.430 --> 00:18:40.769
it with the boss in the room and people are
331
00:18:40.789 --> 00:18:42.670
honest enough to do it. I think that would be great.
332
00:18:42.710 --> 00:18:44.039
I'd like to think I could have done that.
333
00:18:44.819 --> 00:18:45.400
But I've had it.
334
00:18:45.420 --> 00:18:47.519
Where I'm not in the room and you ask for
335
00:18:47.720 --> 00:18:50.140
whether you do it, would they have these 360 reviews?
336
00:18:50.960 --> 00:18:54.089
I really enjoy the start, stop, continue question because what
337
00:18:54.109 --> 00:18:57.430
should we start doing? What should I stop doing? And
338
00:18:57.670 --> 00:19:00.190
what do you really like that we should continue doing?
339
00:19:00.250 --> 00:19:03.349
I think that that's a kind of a three-pronged question
340
00:19:03.390 --> 00:19:06.569
that can elicit a lot of feedback if you've created
341
00:19:06.589 --> 00:19:07.759
the right culture of trust.
342
00:19:08.589 --> 00:19:11.170
Yeah, I totally agree. I think it's so, I call
343
00:19:11.210 --> 00:19:13.430
this in the book, I call this create a speak
344
00:19:13.529 --> 00:19:17.859
truth to power process. So if you are a leader
345
00:19:17.920 --> 00:19:21.380
in your organization, that's something that you can do. You
346
00:19:21.420 --> 00:19:25.099
can either use HR or some sort of consultant to
347
00:19:25.160 --> 00:19:28.910
have these start, stop, continue conversations where you gather information
348
00:19:28.950 --> 00:19:30.950
from a person's team. I think it's even better if
349
00:19:31.569 --> 00:19:36.210
you get the person's manager to have these conversations with
350
00:19:36.269 --> 00:19:39.529
the person's team. And you can do it pretty quickly.
351
00:19:39.549 --> 00:19:43.829
I describe in the book a quick and scalable process
352
00:19:43.930 --> 00:19:48.890
where you, as a leader, will talk to the employees
353
00:19:49.349 --> 00:19:52.160
of the people who work for you. It doesn't have
354
00:19:52.220 --> 00:19:54.740
to be like all the time. You can actually get
355
00:19:54.759 --> 00:19:57.119
a lot if you do this once or twice a
356
00:19:57.140 --> 00:19:58.940
year for each of the teams. You talk to the
357
00:19:58.980 --> 00:20:01.960
whole team at once. So I think that's so important
358
00:20:01.980 --> 00:20:05.980
to begin asking the question. But that's only the first step.
359
00:20:06.240 --> 00:20:09.029
Asking the question is only the first step. The next
360
00:20:09.150 --> 00:20:11.569
thing you need to do is figure out how to
361
00:20:11.710 --> 00:20:15.359
embrace the discomfort. I think we often make the mistake
362
00:20:15.430 --> 00:20:20.059
of thinking that if we just build trust, that then
363
00:20:20.180 --> 00:20:23.279
people will tell us the truth. But part of building
364
00:20:23.380 --> 00:20:27.160
trust is pulling what they really think out of people.
365
00:20:27.200 --> 00:20:31.750
And they're reluctant to tell you. And so everybody's reluctant
366
00:20:31.789 --> 00:20:34.329
to do this. So a simple way to embrace the
367
00:20:34.369 --> 00:20:40.230
discomfort is just to shut your mouth and count to six. See,
368
00:20:40.309 --> 00:20:42.150
I only made it to two and a half there.
369
00:20:43.470 --> 00:20:45.039
And when you count to six, it's got to be
370
00:20:45.059 --> 00:20:49.759
like one Mississippi, two Mississippi. It's not one, two, three, four, five, six.
371
00:20:50.160 --> 00:20:53.339
Almost nobody can endure that much silence. They will tell
372
00:20:53.400 --> 00:20:56.559
you something if you can keep your mouth shut for
373
00:20:56.680 --> 00:21:00.769
six seconds. So I really recommend that as sort of
374
00:21:00.789 --> 00:21:04.170
the second step. Now that you've dragged this information out
375
00:21:04.210 --> 00:21:07.089
of somebody, though, the third step is to listen with
376
00:21:07.109 --> 00:21:13.160
the intent to understand. not to reply. And so that
377
00:21:13.299 --> 00:21:16.380
might just mean repeating back what was said to you.
378
00:21:16.579 --> 00:21:19.859
Just to make sure I understand, what I heard from
379
00:21:19.900 --> 00:21:22.880
you is that you really hate the title of my book,
380
00:21:22.920 --> 00:21:25.069
Radical Candor. You hate the word radical and you hate
381
00:21:25.089 --> 00:21:28.630
the word candor. So I disagree with that. I love
382
00:21:28.710 --> 00:21:31.890
radical candor, but I would just state it back to you.
383
00:21:31.990 --> 00:21:33.549
Can I interrupt real quick, Kim?
384
00:21:33.690 --> 00:21:33.930
Sure.
385
00:21:33.950 --> 00:21:36.609
I know you mentioned it because I think some of
386
00:21:36.670 --> 00:21:39.460
this stuff is so on point. One of the issues
387
00:21:39.519 --> 00:21:41.640
I've seen at some point in the past of my
388
00:21:41.680 --> 00:21:45.210
career is where people make statements that they want to
389
00:21:45.250 --> 00:21:50.670
have these speak-truth-to-power moments where you can share your feedback
390
00:21:50.799 --> 00:21:54.670
and the person who's in charge... says they're listening and
391
00:21:55.109 --> 00:21:57.210
they want to implement. And so then everyone kind of
392
00:21:57.259 --> 00:21:59.200
gets it out on the table and people actually do.
393
00:21:59.279 --> 00:22:03.160
They share some tough feedback with the boss or bosses
394
00:22:04.359 --> 00:22:06.640
and the boss kind of nods and they're there and they're,
395
00:22:06.660 --> 00:22:09.349
they're doing their thing. And then you look six months
396
00:22:09.390 --> 00:22:13.609
later and absolutely nothing has been done about what people
397
00:22:13.890 --> 00:22:16.410
had said, even if they brought solutions to the table
398
00:22:17.029 --> 00:22:20.009
in addition to their complaints. And so this is where
399
00:22:20.029 --> 00:22:22.869
I think as a leader or a boss, you think
400
00:22:22.910 --> 00:22:27.740
you're creating this culture of trust or this speak truth
401
00:22:27.779 --> 00:22:31.839
to power environment. Yet if you never follow up or
402
00:22:31.920 --> 00:22:34.759
follow through on the feedback you get, it's worthless. It's
403
00:22:34.779 --> 00:22:35.480
almost worse.
404
00:22:36.319 --> 00:22:37.619
It is definitely worse.
405
00:22:37.680 --> 00:22:38.380
To do it that way.
406
00:22:38.460 --> 00:22:42.329
And I've seen this personally happen. And at that point,
407
00:22:42.369 --> 00:22:46.869
then you just get a demoralized attitude. culture, because people
408
00:22:47.170 --> 00:22:50.349
have those moments, they air their frustrations, they hear frustrations
409
00:22:50.390 --> 00:22:52.630
of other people that they work with. And then they
410
00:22:52.690 --> 00:22:56.339
see nothing happens after all the head nods and to say, Oh, yeah,
411
00:22:56.359 --> 00:22:58.960
we'll take this back and all of that type of talk.
412
00:22:59.680 --> 00:23:01.960
And it becomes a really frustrating place. And that's when
413
00:23:01.980 --> 00:23:04.000
you start seeing attrition and things like that happen.
414
00:23:05.140 --> 00:23:08.450
Such an important point. And that's why the fourth step,
415
00:23:08.569 --> 00:23:12.650
once you've solicited feedback, is to reward the candor. Sometimes
416
00:23:12.750 --> 00:23:15.410
people think that they're doing a good job listening because
417
00:23:15.430 --> 00:23:19.369
they don't punish the candor. And that's not nearly good enough.
418
00:23:19.390 --> 00:23:21.809
You've got to actually reward it. So if you agree
419
00:23:22.309 --> 00:23:25.930
with the feedback, it's relatively straightforward. What you need to
420
00:23:25.970 --> 00:23:28.369
do is you need to fix the problem immediately. And
421
00:23:28.450 --> 00:23:31.490
you need to be very verbal about the fact that
422
00:23:31.529 --> 00:23:34.329
the reason why you're fixing the problem is that so-and-so
423
00:23:34.369 --> 00:23:37.450
brought it to your attention. And when more people bring
424
00:23:37.470 --> 00:23:40.059
problems to your attention, you're going to help fix them.
425
00:23:40.130 --> 00:23:44.200
So that's pretty straightforward. Of course, it's more complicated because
426
00:23:44.259 --> 00:23:49.410
sometimes you get feedback that you disagree with. And you
427
00:23:49.450 --> 00:23:53.119
don't want to come across as defensive or punishing the feedback,
428
00:23:53.680 --> 00:23:55.880
but nor do you want to pretend to agree when
429
00:23:55.900 --> 00:23:59.480
you disagree. That is not radical candor, nor is it
430
00:23:59.500 --> 00:24:03.940
good listening. It's manipulative insincerity is what it is. And
431
00:24:04.039 --> 00:24:09.460
so when you disagree with feedback that you've gotten, it's hard.
432
00:24:09.759 --> 00:24:11.759
And so the thing that I recommend that you do
433
00:24:11.880 --> 00:24:15.759
is you identify what's the 5% or 10% of what
434
00:24:15.799 --> 00:24:18.349
was said that you can agree with and focus on that.
435
00:24:19.069 --> 00:24:20.990
And then say, but there's some other stuff that you
436
00:24:21.049 --> 00:24:23.869
said that I really want to think about, but I'm
437
00:24:23.910 --> 00:24:25.779
not sure that I agree with you. Can I go
438
00:24:25.819 --> 00:24:28.059
away and think and then come back to you? And
439
00:24:28.079 --> 00:24:31.480
the reason to go away and think is because you do, A,
440
00:24:31.559 --> 00:24:33.480
you do want to think about it. Maybe you're just
441
00:24:33.519 --> 00:24:37.339
having a defensive reaction. And B, you're going to have
442
00:24:37.460 --> 00:24:40.440
probably a better conversation if you wait a day or two.
443
00:24:40.500 --> 00:24:44.359
But don't fail to come back. Sometimes the best the
444
00:24:44.519 --> 00:24:49.500
best reward of the candor is a fuller and more
445
00:24:49.700 --> 00:24:52.900
open description of why you disagree. Does that make sense?
446
00:24:53.109 --> 00:24:53.400
Yeah.
447
00:24:53.740 --> 00:24:55.740
I'm going to bounce around a little bit based on
448
00:24:55.789 --> 00:25:00.990
your background, Kim, if that's cool. So you've worked at Google,
449
00:25:01.990 --> 00:25:07.710
worked at Apple. You've started your own companies. You've coached CEOs.
450
00:25:07.769 --> 00:25:10.549
You've also been coached. And this is an important point
451
00:25:10.589 --> 00:25:13.920
I wanted to bring up. So you've quite accomplished. You've
452
00:25:13.980 --> 00:25:17.940
sustained excellence and yet you've also had CEO.
453
00:25:17.440 --> 00:25:19.609
Coaches or a coach for yourself.
454
00:25:19.710 --> 00:25:23.670
And I remember or I read when something happened from
455
00:25:23.690 --> 00:25:26.910
an emotional standpoint, you said, am I just some sort
456
00:25:26.930 --> 00:25:29.930
of emotional babysitter? And your coach told you, Leslie, I
457
00:25:29.970 --> 00:25:33.819
believe her name is, told you, no, it's called management
458
00:25:33.920 --> 00:25:35.240
and it's your job. And the reason I wanted to
459
00:25:35.259 --> 00:25:36.519
bring this up is I remember when I became a
460
00:25:36.559 --> 00:25:39.420
new manager for the first time, I was pretty young,
461
00:25:40.450 --> 00:25:44.420
and inexperienced, and there was a member of my team,
462
00:25:44.480 --> 00:25:47.390
someone I was managing who was older than me, came
463
00:25:47.470 --> 00:25:49.630
in and told me that their spouse had cheated on
464
00:25:49.650 --> 00:25:51.450
them and they were going to get a divorce and
465
00:25:51.809 --> 00:25:52.230
they didn't know.
466
00:25:52.170 --> 00:25:54.750
What to do. And how could I help? I'm in
467
00:25:54.769 --> 00:25:58.750
my twenties, not married at the time. And I'm thinking, what?
468
00:25:59.730 --> 00:26:02.049
And whenever someone says, what's the most surprising thing about
469
00:26:02.069 --> 00:26:04.109
being a manager? I always bring up that story. And
470
00:26:04.130 --> 00:26:07.690
I've had other ones, unfortunately, like that to where you
471
00:26:07.990 --> 00:26:11.289
do in some cases, almost as much of that type
472
00:26:11.329 --> 00:26:12.470
of discussion.
473
00:26:12.049 --> 00:26:12.690
With your people.
474
00:26:12.730 --> 00:26:14.730
Cause you do, as you said, you've got to care
475
00:26:14.789 --> 00:26:17.299
personally about, And you should if you're a good person.
476
00:26:18.019 --> 00:26:20.259
But that's a part of being a boss, being a manager.
477
00:26:21.240 --> 00:26:25.829
Yes, I think it's so important. All too often, people
478
00:26:26.049 --> 00:26:29.880
feel like The part of the job of management that
479
00:26:29.940 --> 00:26:32.809
is so central to it, which is listening to people,
480
00:26:32.849 --> 00:26:35.690
which is getting to know them at a personal level
481
00:26:35.990 --> 00:26:39.289
well enough that you can figure out what are the
482
00:26:39.410 --> 00:26:42.259
right opportunities for them right now, what are the wrong
483
00:26:42.339 --> 00:26:44.400
opportunities for them right now, where do they want to
484
00:26:44.420 --> 00:26:47.480
head in the future, all of that takes time and
485
00:26:47.519 --> 00:26:50.730
it takes time. getting to know the person at a
486
00:26:50.869 --> 00:26:56.079
human level. And I think very often people, even people
487
00:26:56.099 --> 00:26:59.059
who are really good managers, they enjoy that part of
488
00:26:59.099 --> 00:27:01.720
the job, but they don't view it as part of
489
00:27:01.779 --> 00:27:04.609
the job. They view it as almost like an extracurricular.
490
00:27:05.049 --> 00:27:08.769
And then when things get really busy or hectic or stressful,
491
00:27:09.369 --> 00:27:11.809
They resent having to do that part of the job.
492
00:27:11.849 --> 00:27:15.809
They resent the emotional labor of the job. But that
493
00:27:15.910 --> 00:27:18.250
is part of the work. That is part of what
494
00:27:18.309 --> 00:27:22.670
you do as a manager. And I think it becomes
495
00:27:22.750 --> 00:27:25.670
much easier to do it and to feel good about
496
00:27:25.710 --> 00:27:28.640
doing it if you remember that it's part of your job.
497
00:27:28.720 --> 00:27:32.440
It's not something you're doing just because you're a good person.
498
00:27:32.779 --> 00:27:35.460
You're doing it because it's actually part of your job description.
499
00:27:37.480 --> 00:27:40.440
Yeah, and the importance, I think, of having a coach, too.
500
00:27:41.039 --> 00:27:44.660
I don't want to shortchange that aspect. Some people, as
501
00:27:44.720 --> 00:27:47.900
I've said multiple times, I love the talk I had
502
00:27:47.940 --> 00:27:51.309
with J.J. Reddick when he said, you've never arrived, you're
503
00:27:51.369 --> 00:27:54.670
always becoming. And so even if you've accomplished some great things,
504
00:27:54.710 --> 00:27:57.529
that you still felt it important to have someone to
505
00:27:57.589 --> 00:28:00.970
help you and to coach you in your leadership role.
506
00:28:02.029 --> 00:28:05.859
Yes, the role of a coach is vital. I always say,
507
00:28:05.920 --> 00:28:08.420
people often ask me, what like, what do you talk
508
00:28:08.440 --> 00:28:11.059
to these people about? What is your job as a
509
00:28:11.200 --> 00:28:16.119
CEO coach? And there are things, being a leader is
510
00:28:16.140 --> 00:28:18.789
a very lonely job. And that's true. You don't have
511
00:28:18.829 --> 00:28:22.349
to be CEO to experience that loneliness. Being a middle
512
00:28:22.390 --> 00:28:25.869
manager can also be a very lonely job. And there
513
00:28:26.109 --> 00:28:32.089
are always things that as a boss, there's all this
514
00:28:32.250 --> 00:28:37.240
human dynamic on a team. And There are things that
515
00:28:37.259 --> 00:28:40.680
are happening that you don't want to talk to your
516
00:28:40.720 --> 00:28:42.539
boss about. You don't want to talk to your board
517
00:28:42.599 --> 00:28:48.430
about if you're the CEO because there's maybe performance problems
518
00:28:48.650 --> 00:28:53.730
or team dynamic problems, and you don't want somebody else
519
00:28:53.769 --> 00:28:55.869
to make the decision. You want to make the decision.
520
00:28:56.329 --> 00:28:58.579
So you don't really want to talk to your boss
521
00:28:58.839 --> 00:29:02.089
about these problems sometimes or your board about. And your
522
00:29:02.150 --> 00:29:05.490
spouse is sick of hearing about these problems. They really
523
00:29:05.569 --> 00:29:10.170
don't want to hear about the fight between two people
524
00:29:10.210 --> 00:29:13.609
on your team one more time. And so it's very
525
00:29:13.670 --> 00:29:17.609
helpful to have somebody who is paid to be on
526
00:29:17.650 --> 00:29:21.009
your side in these conflicts and to help you think
527
00:29:21.089 --> 00:29:24.079
through them and to hold up a mirror. Sometimes maybe
528
00:29:24.119 --> 00:29:26.720
you're considering whether or not you should fire somebody. And
529
00:29:28.480 --> 00:29:31.759
That's a hard decision. That's a really that's one of
530
00:29:31.779 --> 00:29:35.450
the most brutally hard decisions that you have to make
531
00:29:35.690 --> 00:29:39.799
as a manager. And it's really helpful to have a
532
00:29:39.839 --> 00:29:43.220
sounding board for those things. Sometimes you want to promote
533
00:29:43.299 --> 00:29:45.339
somebody and then you want to think through, is this
534
00:29:45.380 --> 00:29:47.359
the right thing for that person? Is it the right
535
00:29:47.400 --> 00:29:51.019
thing for the team? What are the unexpected consequences of
536
00:29:51.059 --> 00:29:54.349
doing this? Really helpful to have somebody to talk through
537
00:29:54.380 --> 00:29:55.390
those decisions with.
538
00:29:56.670 --> 00:29:59.089
So are you actively working with many CEOs right now
539
00:29:59.130 --> 00:30:00.190
or what's your day-to-day like?
540
00:30:01.079 --> 00:30:04.900
My day-to-day right now is I'm writing a new book
541
00:30:05.359 --> 00:30:11.069
and I am spending some time helping companies implement radical
542
00:30:11.130 --> 00:30:15.369
candor at scale. So I'm not doing very much CEO
543
00:30:15.410 --> 00:30:18.190
coaching because I find it doesn't scale. One of the
544
00:30:18.250 --> 00:30:21.960
things that that bothered me about being a CEO coach
545
00:30:22.019 --> 00:30:24.160
is that I felt I could only do it effectively
546
00:30:24.740 --> 00:30:28.359
for four or five people. And what I really wanted
547
00:30:28.420 --> 00:30:31.950
to do is help, help these ideas of radical candor
548
00:30:32.029 --> 00:30:34.789
get out into the world in a much bigger way.
549
00:30:35.789 --> 00:30:37.809
So, uh, I know we're getting outside of the book
550
00:30:37.829 --> 00:30:40.549
a little bit, but I'm curious from your perspective, uh,
551
00:30:40.670 --> 00:30:44.400
as a life changing moment, how has this book changed
552
00:30:44.440 --> 00:30:44.779
your life?
553
00:30:46.299 --> 00:30:49.259
It's so interesting. I mean, this book has taken me
554
00:30:49.299 --> 00:30:52.960
in all kinds of different directions that I'm delighted to
555
00:30:53.000 --> 00:30:56.589
go in, some of them expected and others unexpected. The
556
00:30:56.690 --> 00:31:00.049
main way that this book has changed my life is
557
00:31:00.190 --> 00:31:03.970
to really make me think at a more fundamental level
558
00:31:04.619 --> 00:31:08.480
about ways we can scale the idea of radical candor.
559
00:31:10.970 --> 00:31:14.109
It's something that a lot of people have found helpful
560
00:31:14.650 --> 00:31:17.599
to think about, but very hard to put into practice.
561
00:31:18.299 --> 00:31:21.519
And I thought at first that technology would be an
562
00:31:21.579 --> 00:31:26.400
enormous help. And it turns out that at least technology
563
00:31:26.759 --> 00:31:31.039
as I had envisioned it was not that helpful to people.
564
00:31:31.079 --> 00:31:34.359
What was much more helpful to people was just telling stories.
565
00:31:35.380 --> 00:31:39.180
reading stories in the book, sharing stories when we do
566
00:31:39.220 --> 00:31:43.880
talks and workshops, and sharing stories with each other. So
567
00:31:44.579 --> 00:31:47.349
one of the things that's been most interesting to me
568
00:31:47.789 --> 00:31:51.430
to learn about is the power of storytelling in terms
569
00:31:51.490 --> 00:31:54.289
of changing behavior. And that's been fun.
570
00:31:55.529 --> 00:31:58.230
I noticed one of your recent talks that I was watching,
571
00:31:58.470 --> 00:32:01.880
as you called me, was you started with a.
572
00:32:01.859 --> 00:32:07.670
Story and There's something about that that I had trouble
573
00:32:09.589 --> 00:32:10.269
looking away.
574
00:32:10.730 --> 00:32:14.900
I think we're so attracted to personal stories, especially people
575
00:32:14.920 --> 00:32:15.119
who are.
576
00:32:15.119 --> 00:32:16.299
Good at telling them that.
577
00:32:17.480 --> 00:32:21.750
I think that that can be useful when you're coaching
578
00:32:22.349 --> 00:32:25.769
other people, sharing maybe some mistakes that you've made or
579
00:32:25.809 --> 00:32:30.160
you've went through that could potentially help others. Avoid making
580
00:32:30.200 --> 00:32:34.759
those mistakes. How do you use stories when you're coaching,
581
00:32:34.960 --> 00:32:37.569
giving speeches, sharing this message?
582
00:32:38.670 --> 00:32:41.029
Well, why don't we why don't I answer that question
583
00:32:41.069 --> 00:32:41.769
with a story?
584
00:32:41.789 --> 00:32:44.599
I was hoping you would do that.
585
00:32:45.259 --> 00:32:48.930
So so. For me, one of the best examples of
586
00:32:48.970 --> 00:32:51.799
radical candor, and this is something all your listeners can
587
00:32:51.839 --> 00:32:55.279
do right now. Think about that moment in your career
588
00:32:55.299 --> 00:32:58.259
where somebody gave you some feedback that was hard to
589
00:32:58.319 --> 00:33:00.730
hear but really helpful for the rest of your career.
590
00:33:00.789 --> 00:33:05.069
So here's my moment. I had recently started a job
591
00:33:05.210 --> 00:33:09.099
at Google, and I was working for Sheryl Sandberg. And
592
00:33:09.500 --> 00:33:13.740
she had me give a presentation to Google's founders and
593
00:33:13.779 --> 00:33:18.000
the CEO about the AdSense business, the online AdSense business
594
00:33:18.019 --> 00:33:21.630
that I was leading. And I walked into the room,
595
00:33:22.170 --> 00:33:26.509
and there was Larry in his– or Sergey, rather, in
596
00:33:26.589 --> 00:33:29.880
his toe shoes walking. on an elliptical trainer in the
597
00:33:29.940 --> 00:33:33.170
corner of the room. And there was Eric Schmidt, the
598
00:33:33.210 --> 00:33:35.910
CEO at the time. It was like his brain had
599
00:33:35.950 --> 00:33:38.779
been plugged into his computer. He was so deep in
600
00:33:38.819 --> 00:33:42.680
his email. And like any normal person in this situation,
601
00:33:42.759 --> 00:33:45.380
I felt a little nervous. How in the world was
602
00:33:45.440 --> 00:33:48.630
I going to get their attention? Luckily, the business that
603
00:33:48.670 --> 00:33:50.759
I was leading was on fire. And when I said
604
00:33:50.859 --> 00:33:54.099
how many new AdSense customers we had added over the
605
00:33:54.140 --> 00:33:57.019
last couple of months, Eric's head jerks up out of
606
00:33:57.079 --> 00:33:59.559
his computer to the extent that you can come to
607
00:33:59.599 --> 00:34:03.380
a screeching halt on an elliptical trainer. Sergey came to
608
00:34:03.400 --> 00:34:06.440
a screeching halt. And they said, what do you need?
609
00:34:06.480 --> 00:34:10.300
Do you need more engineering resources? Do you need more
610
00:34:10.360 --> 00:34:13.480
marketing budget? So, you know, I'm feeling like the meeting
611
00:34:13.559 --> 00:34:17.039
went pretty well. In fact, I'm feeling like a genius.
612
00:34:17.840 --> 00:34:20.679
And as I was walking out of the room, I
613
00:34:20.719 --> 00:34:23.929
passed Cheryl and I was expecting kind of a high
614
00:34:23.989 --> 00:34:26.530
five or a good job or a pat on the back.
615
00:34:26.590 --> 00:34:31.070
And instead, Cheryl said to me, why don't you walk
616
00:34:31.110 --> 00:34:33.449
back to my office with me? And I thought, oh, boy,
617
00:34:33.610 --> 00:34:36.090
I screwed something up. I have no idea what it is,
618
00:34:36.250 --> 00:34:39.590
but I'm sure I'm about to hear about it. And.
619
00:34:40.969 --> 00:34:44.090
Cheryl started by telling me the good things that had happened,
620
00:34:44.150 --> 00:34:47.010
not in a feedback sandwich kind of way, but she
621
00:34:47.050 --> 00:34:50.190
seemed to genuinely mean it. And she was also telling
622
00:34:50.230 --> 00:34:52.570
me some things that I didn't know. But of course,
623
00:34:53.210 --> 00:34:55.429
that was all very interesting. But what I really wanted
624
00:34:55.469 --> 00:34:59.469
to know was what had I screwed up? And eventually
625
00:34:59.550 --> 00:35:02.960
Cheryl said to me, you said I'm a lot in there.
626
00:35:03.199 --> 00:35:07.010
Were you aware of it? And I breathed a huge
627
00:35:07.050 --> 00:35:09.800
sigh of relief. If that was all I had done wrong,
628
00:35:10.219 --> 00:35:11.980
it didn't really matter. I was fine. I kind of
629
00:35:12.000 --> 00:35:14.480
made a brush-off gesture with my hand, and I said, yeah,
630
00:35:14.500 --> 00:35:16.420
I know it's a verbal tick. It's no big deal, really.
631
00:35:17.219 --> 00:35:20.300
And then Cheryl said, I know a really good speech coach,
632
00:35:20.869 --> 00:35:23.510
Maureen Taylor at S & P Communications. Would you like
633
00:35:23.570 --> 00:35:27.750
an introduction? And again, I made this brush-off gesture with
634
00:35:27.949 --> 00:35:30.710
my hand, and I said, no, I'm busy. Didn't you
635
00:35:30.769 --> 00:35:34.429
hear about all those new customers? And Cheryl stopped. She
636
00:35:34.469 --> 00:35:37.030
looked at me right in the eye and she said,
637
00:35:37.170 --> 00:35:41.309
when you say every third word, it makes you sound stupid.
638
00:35:42.250 --> 00:35:45.699
Now she has my full attention. And some people would
639
00:35:45.760 --> 00:35:48.519
say that it was mean of Cheryl to say that
640
00:35:48.619 --> 00:35:51.280
I sounded stupid, but it was the kindest thing she
641
00:35:51.300 --> 00:35:54.000
could possibly have done for me at that moment in
642
00:35:54.039 --> 00:35:57.389
my career. By the way, she wouldn't have said it
643
00:35:57.429 --> 00:35:59.969
that way to anybody else on her team because everybody
644
00:36:00.070 --> 00:36:03.239
else on her team were better listeners than I was.
645
00:36:03.599 --> 00:36:06.780
They weren't quite as bullheaded, but she knew those were
646
00:36:06.820 --> 00:36:09.139
the words she had to say to get through to
647
00:36:09.199 --> 00:36:12.019
me in order to get me to go see the
648
00:36:12.579 --> 00:36:15.159
S & P Communications. When I did, and I watched
649
00:36:15.219 --> 00:36:18.630
a video of myself presenting one of life's more painful
650
00:36:18.750 --> 00:36:24.460
experiences— I learned something important. Cheryl wasn't exaggerating. I really
651
00:36:24.539 --> 00:36:29.550
did say, um, every third word. And this was news
652
00:36:29.670 --> 00:36:31.769
to me. And it was news because I had been
653
00:36:31.789 --> 00:36:37.489
giving presentations my entire career. I had raised $ 35 million
654
00:36:38.300 --> 00:36:40.670
giving presentations. I thought I was pretty good at it.
655
00:36:41.340 --> 00:36:45.139
And this got me to thinking, why had nobody else
656
00:36:45.239 --> 00:36:47.980
told me? It was as though I'd been walking through
657
00:36:48.039 --> 00:36:51.300
my whole career with my fly down and nobody had
658
00:36:51.340 --> 00:36:54.519
had the common courtesy to tell me. So why had
659
00:36:54.559 --> 00:36:58.369
nobody told me? And what made it so seemingly easy
660
00:36:58.570 --> 00:37:01.150
for Cheryl to tell me? And that was when I
661
00:37:01.190 --> 00:37:04.670
realized that there were these two aspects to being a
662
00:37:04.710 --> 00:37:10.269
good boss. One is caring personally. I knew Cheryl cared
663
00:37:10.389 --> 00:37:13.710
about me as a human being. When I moved from
664
00:37:13.730 --> 00:37:17.409
New York to California and didn't know anybody, she, knowing
665
00:37:17.449 --> 00:37:19.909
that I loved to read, invited me to join her
666
00:37:19.949 --> 00:37:22.789
book group. When I had a family member who was sick,
667
00:37:22.969 --> 00:37:27.070
she said, make sure that you go home right now.
668
00:37:27.349 --> 00:37:30.289
I'm going to come up with a plan to cover
669
00:37:30.409 --> 00:37:32.969
you while you're out. And don't count it as vacation.
670
00:37:33.050 --> 00:37:35.289
Just take the time you need to be with your family.
671
00:37:35.329 --> 00:37:38.360
That's the most important thing right now. And it wasn't
672
00:37:38.400 --> 00:37:40.019
the sort of thing she did just for me. She
673
00:37:40.039 --> 00:37:42.320
did that sort of thing for everyone, all of her
674
00:37:42.340 --> 00:37:44.699
direct reports, everyone who worked directly with her. So we
675
00:37:44.800 --> 00:37:48.360
all knew that she had our, more than had our backs.
676
00:37:48.440 --> 00:37:51.849
She really had our growth in mind. But because she
677
00:37:51.869 --> 00:37:55.739
had our growth in mind, she wasn't, She wasn't going
678
00:37:55.780 --> 00:37:57.940
to pull her punches when we screwed up. She was
679
00:37:57.960 --> 00:38:00.219
going to let us know very clearly. She was going
680
00:38:00.239 --> 00:38:03.260
to challenge us very directly. And that, to me, is
681
00:38:03.599 --> 00:38:07.500
sort of the essence of radical candor and of good management.
682
00:38:08.280 --> 00:38:09.300
Wow, what a great boss.
683
00:38:10.039 --> 00:38:11.820
Yes, I was very, very lucky.
684
00:38:12.360 --> 00:38:15.099
She seems to have done okay for herself.
685
00:38:15.780 --> 00:38:18.920
Yes, yes, she has. Yeah.
686
00:38:19.920 --> 00:38:24.619
Thinking about the hiring process, my dad told me early
687
00:38:24.639 --> 00:38:27.300
in my career, he's my number one mentor in life,
688
00:38:27.380 --> 00:38:30.559
and he's the best. And he told me, you'll become
689
00:38:31.219 --> 00:38:35.340
rich and famous within this company, within whatever company you
690
00:38:35.380 --> 00:38:39.079
work for, if you get it right. And the most
691
00:38:39.139 --> 00:38:41.619
important decision you'll make is who you decide to bring
692
00:38:41.659 --> 00:38:47.099
into the business, who you decide to hire. And understand
693
00:38:47.139 --> 00:38:51.280
the qualities you're looking for, understand why, most importantly, why
694
00:38:51.300 --> 00:38:53.389
you're looking for, and then figure out a way to
695
00:38:54.389 --> 00:38:59.210
find that out through whatever interview process you create. And
696
00:38:59.250 --> 00:39:01.610
some of the things that you talk about are personality
697
00:39:01.630 --> 00:39:04.909
and drive and the characteristics you're looking for, motivations, career aspirations,
698
00:39:04.969 --> 00:39:08.130
and not necessarily about education or titles or experience.
699
00:39:09.179 --> 00:39:10.039
On paper.
700
00:39:10.280 --> 00:39:12.880
And also, it doesn't necessarily mean that you won't be
701
00:39:12.900 --> 00:39:16.079
a good manager if you haven't had direct reports in
702
00:39:16.099 --> 00:39:19.219
the past, because that's not always an indicator whether or
703
00:39:19.260 --> 00:39:21.929
not someone is or isn't or couldn't be a great boss.
704
00:39:22.489 --> 00:39:27.670
Can you expand on that aspect of hiring, promoting, just
705
00:39:27.690 --> 00:39:30.409
the importance of that aspect of of.
706
00:39:30.570 --> 00:39:31.840
Being a boss?
707
00:39:32.800 --> 00:39:37.659
Yes. One of the most important decisions that you make
708
00:39:38.699 --> 00:39:42.079
is who you hire. These are the people who are
709
00:39:42.139 --> 00:39:45.360
either going to make you successful or contribute to your failure.
710
00:39:46.000 --> 00:39:50.420
And as another piece of wisdom from my CEO coach,
711
00:39:50.500 --> 00:39:55.050
Leslie Koch, was if you're not dying to hire that person,
712
00:39:55.510 --> 00:40:00.110
don't hire them. It's so tempting when you have, quote unquote,
713
00:40:00.210 --> 00:40:02.949
a hole on your team, when you have this body
714
00:40:02.989 --> 00:40:05.250
of work that needs doing, you need to hire somebody
715
00:40:05.309 --> 00:40:08.969
to do the work. It's so tempting to to hire
716
00:40:09.070 --> 00:40:12.440
somebody who you're not dying to hire because you're dying
717
00:40:12.500 --> 00:40:15.860
to get this work done. But in the immortal words
718
00:40:15.940 --> 00:40:18.780
of Steve Jobs, it's better to have a hole than
719
00:40:18.820 --> 00:40:24.059
an asshole. So you want to hire great, great people,
720
00:40:24.139 --> 00:40:27.159
people who you're dying to hire because really if you're
721
00:40:27.179 --> 00:40:31.329
not dying to hire that person, if you have reservations
722
00:40:31.610 --> 00:40:34.369
or sort of you're not so sure about this or that,
723
00:40:35.469 --> 00:40:37.349
it's not going to get better. The next day is
724
00:40:37.369 --> 00:40:39.030
going to be worse than the first day. And the
725
00:40:39.070 --> 00:40:40.679
third day, you know, it's going to go in the
726
00:40:40.699 --> 00:40:42.559
wrong direction. And the same is true, by the way,
727
00:40:42.860 --> 00:40:45.860
of choosing a boss when you're choosing a job. If
728
00:40:45.880 --> 00:40:48.849
you're not dying to work for that person, don't take
729
00:40:48.889 --> 00:40:51.889
the job. So I think that's really important. But I
730
00:40:51.929 --> 00:40:56.980
think another mistake that that managers make is they think
731
00:40:57.219 --> 00:40:59.340
the only thing they have to do is hire great
732
00:40:59.380 --> 00:41:01.559
people and then they get and then just get out
733
00:41:01.599 --> 00:41:06.079
of their way. And I was once talking to Dick
734
00:41:06.119 --> 00:41:09.570
Costolo about this phenomenon and he burst out laughing and
735
00:41:09.590 --> 00:41:11.869
he said, yeah, that would be kind of like my
736
00:41:11.929 --> 00:41:15.250
saying to my wife that You're doing a great job
737
00:41:16.250 --> 00:41:19.449
raising those children. I don't want to micromanage. I'm just
738
00:41:19.489 --> 00:41:21.460
going to not come home for dinner for the next
739
00:41:21.460 --> 00:41:27.400
20 years. That wouldn't work out so well. Saying all
740
00:41:27.440 --> 00:41:29.940
I have to do is hire the right people and
741
00:41:29.960 --> 00:41:33.190
then never spend another minute with them is sort of
742
00:41:33.250 --> 00:41:35.530
like saying all I have to do is marry the
743
00:41:35.570 --> 00:41:38.510
right person. and then never spend another minute with them.
744
00:41:38.590 --> 00:41:41.070
That's not how you build a relationship. So you've got
745
00:41:41.090 --> 00:41:42.889
to hire the right people, but you also have to
746
00:41:42.969 --> 00:41:47.139
invest the time becoming a thought partner to each of
747
00:41:47.199 --> 00:41:51.619
those people who you hire. You can't just ignore them.
748
00:41:52.239 --> 00:41:55.820
Yeah, you hear that so much of people saying hire
749
00:41:55.840 --> 00:41:57.539
the right people and just kind of let them do
750
00:41:57.579 --> 00:41:59.780
their thing. The one thing, though, that Steve Jobs and
751
00:41:59.820 --> 00:42:02.159
Apple said is we hire people who tell us what
752
00:42:02.179 --> 00:42:04.300
to do, not the other way around.
753
00:42:04.760 --> 00:42:07.989
Yes, yes. You don't want to micromanage them. You want
754
00:42:08.010 --> 00:42:11.469
to listen to them. The way I think that you
755
00:42:11.570 --> 00:42:15.710
achieve results, the best results on a team, is you
756
00:42:15.730 --> 00:42:19.570
do it collaboratively. And that means that you don't tell
757
00:42:19.610 --> 00:42:22.119
people what to do. Telling people what to do doesn't work.
758
00:42:22.610 --> 00:42:25.510
You listen to them. You work with them to help
759
00:42:25.550 --> 00:42:28.369
them clarify their thinking. I think in the case of
760
00:42:28.409 --> 00:42:31.289
James Damore, he did not have a boss who helped
761
00:42:31.329 --> 00:42:34.300
him clarify his thinking. And it got him into a
762
00:42:34.320 --> 00:42:37.539
lot of trouble and got Google into a lot of trouble, frankly.
763
00:42:37.579 --> 00:42:40.300
It's a sad failure of radical candor. So you want
764
00:42:40.340 --> 00:42:42.760
to listen to them. You want to help them clarify
765
00:42:42.780 --> 00:42:48.219
their thinking. Another word of wisdom from Johnny Ive is
766
00:42:48.280 --> 00:42:52.719
that new ideas are fragile. Part of your job as
767
00:42:52.739 --> 00:42:55.800
a boss is to create a private space where people
768
00:42:55.840 --> 00:42:59.409
can come to you with new ideas and flesh them out,
769
00:42:59.530 --> 00:43:02.150
clarify them. So you want to listen to the thinking.
770
00:43:02.170 --> 00:43:05.489
You want to clarify it. Then you want to open
771
00:43:05.550 --> 00:43:07.750
it up to debate. You want to get the ideas
772
00:43:07.949 --> 00:43:11.190
of the whole team on these, the thoughts of the
773
00:43:11.230 --> 00:43:15.269
whole team on these new ideas, on these suggestions, on
774
00:43:15.289 --> 00:43:19.469
these changes that people are recommending. And then only after
775
00:43:19.510 --> 00:43:24.579
you've gone through that listen, clarify, debate process is it
776
00:43:24.699 --> 00:43:27.320
safe to make a decision. And your job as the
777
00:43:27.360 --> 00:43:31.760
boss is very often not to be the decider. Your
778
00:43:31.800 --> 00:43:34.679
job as the boss is to make it clear who
779
00:43:34.719 --> 00:43:38.219
the decider is, to push decisions into the facts, to
780
00:43:38.300 --> 00:43:42.360
help the people who work for you build that decision-making muscle.
781
00:43:43.690 --> 00:43:46.369
And having made a decision, now you've got to make
782
00:43:46.409 --> 00:43:49.199
sure that you're bringing everybody along, that the rest of
783
00:43:49.239 --> 00:43:51.579
the team is persuaded. And then you've got to make
784
00:43:51.679 --> 00:43:56.199
sure that you get to execute. So often, managers think
785
00:43:56.260 --> 00:43:59.679
they have to just zoom right past all those steps
786
00:43:59.840 --> 00:44:02.940
to execution. But you've got to take the time to
787
00:44:02.980 --> 00:44:04.860
go through those steps, but you also need to make
788
00:44:04.909 --> 00:44:07.730
sure they don't take so long that people don't have
789
00:44:07.769 --> 00:44:11.070
time to execute. And then, of course, most painful of all,
790
00:44:11.190 --> 00:44:13.550
you've got to learn when you're right and when you're wrong.
791
00:44:13.650 --> 00:44:16.510
Sometimes you will have made the wrong decision or you
792
00:44:16.530 --> 00:44:20.570
will have executed poorly. And you've got to have the
793
00:44:20.610 --> 00:44:24.369
self-honesty to recognize that. And then you've got to start
794
00:44:24.409 --> 00:44:29.380
listening all over again. So it can feel sometimes slow
795
00:44:29.460 --> 00:44:32.769
and frustrating as a boss, but It's really important to
796
00:44:32.829 --> 00:44:35.409
make sure that you remember that your job is not
797
00:44:35.449 --> 00:44:38.769
to be the decider. Your job is not to tell
798
00:44:38.809 --> 00:44:41.369
people what to do. Your job is to create the
799
00:44:41.409 --> 00:44:45.210
conditions where people can achieve results collaboratively.
800
00:44:47.219 --> 00:44:52.280
Kim, one of the problems currently going on today that
801
00:44:52.320 --> 00:44:56.329
I've seen and heard is is people with these jammed
802
00:44:56.409 --> 00:44:58.190
up schedules of back to back to back to back
803
00:44:58.210 --> 00:45:01.010
to back meetings with no time to sit and think
804
00:45:01.090 --> 00:45:05.260
and reflect and learn from both success and failure. And
805
00:45:05.909 --> 00:45:10.179
I pulled a great quote from a phenomenal book in
806
00:45:10.219 --> 00:45:12.300
addition to yours that I'm reading about the Wright brothers.
807
00:45:13.079 --> 00:45:15.659
And this is people who are witnessing and watching how
808
00:45:15.699 --> 00:45:18.880
the Wright brothers worked down. They're from here in Dayton, Ohio,
809
00:45:18.900 --> 00:45:21.840
where I'm from, but they worked down in also North Carolina.
810
00:45:21.860 --> 00:45:25.090
And they said, We couldn't help thinking they were just
811
00:45:25.190 --> 00:45:28.130
a pair of poor nuts. They'd stand on the beach
812
00:45:28.210 --> 00:45:33.050
for hours at a time just looking at the birds flying, soaring, dipping.
813
00:45:33.489 --> 00:45:35.239
We thought they were crazy, but we just had to
814
00:45:35.280 --> 00:45:37.320
admire the way they could move their arms this way
815
00:45:37.360 --> 00:45:39.820
and that and bend their elbows and wrist bones up
816
00:45:39.860 --> 00:45:42.940
and down just like the birds. Orville said learning the
817
00:45:43.019 --> 00:45:45.519
secret of flight from a bird was a good deal
818
00:45:45.920 --> 00:45:48.820
like learning the secret of magic from a magician. The
819
00:45:48.880 --> 00:45:52.829
fact that they took time, they sat back, to analyze,
820
00:45:53.010 --> 00:45:56.539
to think, to not just be back to back to
821
00:45:56.579 --> 00:46:00.500
back on building the plane, but trying to understand maybe
822
00:46:00.539 --> 00:46:02.539
a better way to build the plane. And I thought
823
00:46:02.559 --> 00:46:05.300
this relates so well to leaders who are jammed up
824
00:46:05.360 --> 00:46:09.010
and never take time to think. And I'm curious from
825
00:46:09.030 --> 00:46:12.130
your perspective, from Radical Candor, from being a great boss
826
00:46:12.170 --> 00:46:17.389
of how you build in this time to reflect, to learn,
827
00:46:17.570 --> 00:46:19.309
to think so that you can improve.
828
00:46:20.289 --> 00:46:24.130
Yeah, a couple of really important suggestions here because it is,
829
00:46:24.969 --> 00:46:28.889
especially now, we just do not give ourselves enough time,
830
00:46:29.150 --> 00:46:32.760
quiet time to think. We don't, we've always got stuff
831
00:46:32.800 --> 00:46:35.360
coming at us. One of the things that I really
832
00:46:35.559 --> 00:46:40.050
admire that Dick Costolo did is he put two hours
833
00:46:40.170 --> 00:46:42.610
of think time in his calendar, an hour in the morning,
834
00:46:42.670 --> 00:46:45.630
an hour in the afternoon, every day. And he really
835
00:46:45.789 --> 00:46:49.099
didn't let that time get interrupted, no matter what kind
836
00:46:49.139 --> 00:46:52.820
of crises were burning. And believe me, there was always
837
00:46:52.860 --> 00:46:58.190
a crisis burning Twitter. So I think having the discipline
838
00:46:58.349 --> 00:47:02.400
to create space in your big chunks of time, like
839
00:47:02.440 --> 00:47:06.639
an hour. Sometimes when I'm writing a book, I need
840
00:47:07.239 --> 00:47:10.679
three two-hour chunks every day. That's six hours a day.
841
00:47:10.719 --> 00:47:13.630
That's pretty hard to get that much think time. I
842
00:47:14.130 --> 00:47:17.789
think that's really important. When I was coming up with
843
00:47:17.809 --> 00:47:23.150
the Radical Candor framework, I spent several months just debating
844
00:47:23.550 --> 00:47:29.309
which words for each of the axes and which words
845
00:47:29.349 --> 00:47:32.909
for radical candor at first radical candor was just tough love,
846
00:47:33.030 --> 00:47:36.909
which doesn't, which doesn't sound nearly so good. And I
847
00:47:36.949 --> 00:47:39.239
felt crazy about it at the time, but it was
848
00:47:39.320 --> 00:47:44.940
not wasted time. So sort of like feeling that having
849
00:47:44.980 --> 00:47:48.039
a conversation with someone who works for you about their
850
00:47:48.059 --> 00:47:52.119
divorce or, or their sick kid or whatever, that's not
851
00:47:52.179 --> 00:47:55.309
wasted time. So I think just giving that the time
852
00:47:55.369 --> 00:47:58.590
and space that it deserves to think is really important.
853
00:47:59.030 --> 00:48:01.369
And then there's also just creating a little bit of
854
00:48:01.510 --> 00:48:05.469
slack in your schedule. I think when I have talked
855
00:48:06.090 --> 00:48:10.570
to leaders at every level of organizations and so many
856
00:48:10.650 --> 00:48:14.849
industries and people in different countries, the reason the best
857
00:48:14.949 --> 00:48:19.519
feedback always happens in these two-minute impromptu conversations is And
858
00:48:19.579 --> 00:48:24.219
the most common reason why those conversations don't happen is
859
00:48:24.260 --> 00:48:27.099
that you see something happen in a meeting. You want
860
00:48:27.119 --> 00:48:29.980
to talk to the person, but you're late for your
861
00:48:30.019 --> 00:48:33.510
next meeting. You're hungry and you have to pee. And
862
00:48:33.550 --> 00:48:36.230
now you've got this fourth thing to do, right? All
863
00:48:36.269 --> 00:48:40.329
in the non-two minutes, you're late for your next meeting, right?
864
00:48:40.610 --> 00:48:43.769
Not only do you not have two minutes, you need
865
00:48:43.769 --> 00:48:48.400
10 and you've got negative three. And so figuring out
866
00:48:48.559 --> 00:48:51.869
how either to create the mental space, to be willing
867
00:48:51.929 --> 00:48:54.369
to be late to the next meeting, to be willing
868
00:48:54.510 --> 00:48:56.610
to hold it for a few more minutes before you
869
00:48:56.650 --> 00:49:00.269
go to the bathroom and to prioritize that conversation is
870
00:49:00.949 --> 00:49:03.800
one approach. And that was the approach I took. It
871
00:49:03.840 --> 00:49:06.960
was really sort of a psychological creating the mental space
872
00:49:07.019 --> 00:49:09.750
for it, being willing to be late afterwards. being willing
873
00:49:09.869 --> 00:49:14.119
to delay eating or going to the bathroom because this
874
00:49:14.159 --> 00:49:18.329
conversation was so important. Another thing that I really admire
875
00:49:18.369 --> 00:49:20.659
that a lot of leaders have tried is to create
876
00:49:20.739 --> 00:49:26.619
slack time in the schedule. So 30-minute meetings all are
877
00:49:26.639 --> 00:49:31.389
25-minute meetings and hour-long meetings are all 50-minute meetings. And
878
00:49:31.739 --> 00:49:34.690
that can be very helpful in terms of just creating
879
00:49:34.809 --> 00:49:38.349
a little bit of space and slack in your schedule
880
00:49:38.849 --> 00:49:42.130
to think or talk. Because it's hard and it's important.
881
00:49:42.610 --> 00:49:46.210
Yeah. Kim, I'm sure you get this a lot now,
882
00:49:46.369 --> 00:49:50.010
so I want to ask it still. But when somebody
883
00:49:50.289 --> 00:49:52.190
who's at any point in their career, I don't want
884
00:49:52.250 --> 00:49:53.949
to just say people earlier in their career, but they're
885
00:49:53.969 --> 00:49:58.630
looking to progress. Anyone can define this differently, but they
886
00:49:58.650 --> 00:50:01.269
want to put together a great career. And without going
887
00:50:01.289 --> 00:50:05.659
into semantics as to defining that, And they say, what advice?
888
00:50:05.699 --> 00:50:07.760
You've been able to do this in a number of
889
00:50:07.780 --> 00:50:11.420
different ways. Worked at great companies, worked for yourself, started companies.
890
00:50:11.699 --> 00:50:15.639
You've really done a lot. And they come to you
891
00:50:15.780 --> 00:50:19.110
and I get these types of emails too. So I'm
892
00:50:19.250 --> 00:50:22.070
curious to hear what you'd say. What are the top
893
00:50:22.230 --> 00:50:25.469
pieces of career advice you'd give to someone as they're
894
00:50:25.510 --> 00:50:28.409
looking to build and grow and create a great career?
895
00:50:29.789 --> 00:50:32.420
I think one of the most important things you can
896
00:50:32.480 --> 00:50:36.619
do is... Quiet all the advice that you're going to
897
00:50:36.659 --> 00:50:40.260
get about building a great resume. You don't want to
898
00:50:40.320 --> 00:50:44.179
build a great resume. You want to build a great life.
899
00:50:44.440 --> 00:50:48.530
And so take some time. Find somebody who you can
900
00:50:48.590 --> 00:50:52.769
have the following career conversations with. In an ideal world,
901
00:50:52.969 --> 00:50:55.809
your boss would do this for you. But if your
902
00:50:55.829 --> 00:50:58.750
boss is unwilling, find a mentor or a friend or
903
00:50:58.789 --> 00:51:02.340
a colleague or a parent who Find someone who will
904
00:51:02.380 --> 00:51:06.900
have these conversations with you. This is my co-founder, Russ Laraway,
905
00:51:06.960 --> 00:51:11.719
developed a great career conversation methodology. And the first conversation
906
00:51:11.760 --> 00:51:14.449
you want to have is just, even if the person
907
00:51:14.530 --> 00:51:18.809
knows you well, just taking 45 minutes, maybe an hour,
908
00:51:18.829 --> 00:51:22.429
to sort of recount your life story to the person.
909
00:51:23.250 --> 00:51:26.210
And in an ideal world, if you find a good
910
00:51:26.349 --> 00:51:31.789
conversation partner on this life story conversation The person will
911
00:51:32.110 --> 00:51:34.550
sort of ask you about pivots, but you can do
912
00:51:34.590 --> 00:51:38.929
this for yourself as well. Zero in on those changes
913
00:51:39.010 --> 00:51:42.570
that you made in your life and try to understand
914
00:51:42.840 --> 00:51:48.860
from those changes what really motivates you about work. What
915
00:51:48.980 --> 00:51:54.579
is it that you value at work? And if you
916
00:51:54.659 --> 00:51:59.510
start by just asking yourself what are your values– you're
917
00:51:59.530 --> 00:52:03.090
not going to– it's too abstract of a question. And
918
00:52:03.250 --> 00:52:06.150
you're not going to get the same texture. Whereas I'll
919
00:52:06.210 --> 00:52:08.889
give you an example that I share in the book.
920
00:52:08.929 --> 00:52:13.050
There was a woman I was talking to, and she
921
00:52:13.130 --> 00:52:15.750
told a story about a time when she went to
922
00:52:15.829 --> 00:52:19.510
New Orleans with her family. And her father, who had
923
00:52:19.550 --> 00:52:23.480
maybe had a couple of milk punches into the afternoon–
924
00:52:23.849 --> 00:52:26.469
noticed that she was about 12. She was kind of
925
00:52:26.530 --> 00:52:31.820
glancing into a strip club. And there's a woman on
926
00:52:31.840 --> 00:52:38.179
the pole. And her father turns her face towards the
927
00:52:38.260 --> 00:52:40.840
strip club. And he says, do you see that woman
928
00:52:40.880 --> 00:52:45.010
in there? She makes more money every night than your
929
00:52:45.050 --> 00:52:47.989
mother makes in a year. Her mother was a teacher.
930
00:52:48.849 --> 00:52:53.440
And the woman at this moment... looked at her father
931
00:52:53.519 --> 00:52:56.349
and said, I am going to make more money than you, dad.
932
00:52:56.809 --> 00:52:59.989
So if she had said financial independence or making a
933
00:53:00.010 --> 00:53:02.429
lot of money was a core value, you kind of
934
00:53:02.489 --> 00:53:05.280
wouldn't have felt that sympathetic with her. But when she
935
00:53:05.320 --> 00:53:10.960
told that story, like now you understood her drive to
936
00:53:11.300 --> 00:53:16.059
do very well financially. And so I think by sharing
937
00:53:16.079 --> 00:53:18.659
your life story, you get the texture of what really
938
00:53:18.719 --> 00:53:21.900
matters to you and why. So that's conversation number one.
939
00:53:22.340 --> 00:53:27.050
Conversation number two is think about your dreams. Like imagine
940
00:53:27.090 --> 00:53:30.690
your life at a moment when you've got everything you
941
00:53:30.909 --> 00:53:34.829
ever thought you wanted. And imagine several different scenarios. Almost
942
00:53:35.010 --> 00:53:38.889
nobody knows what they want to be when they grow up.
943
00:53:39.269 --> 00:53:42.070
And those who do, those who have those kinds of vocations,
944
00:53:42.130 --> 00:53:44.090
they confuse the heck out of the rest of us.
945
00:53:44.610 --> 00:53:50.719
It's You know, there's different dreams that we all have.
946
00:53:51.179 --> 00:53:54.619
So give yourself the space and the freedom to dream
947
00:53:54.679 --> 00:53:58.760
those dreams, to kind of put some color on those dreams.
948
00:53:59.380 --> 00:54:02.280
And then make sure, take a moment to make sure
949
00:54:02.300 --> 00:54:05.730
that the dreams and the values are in alignment. If
950
00:54:05.869 --> 00:54:08.929
one of the things that really motivates you is creating
951
00:54:09.030 --> 00:54:13.269
something from nothing, make sure one of your dreams is entrepreneurial.
952
00:54:14.289 --> 00:54:18.329
Then take some time to come up with a plan.
953
00:54:18.769 --> 00:54:21.800
Imagine what are the skills that you need to develop
954
00:54:22.389 --> 00:54:28.260
to achieve each dream and think about where you are
955
00:54:28.340 --> 00:54:32.750
in the development process of those skills and How can
956
00:54:32.789 --> 00:54:35.210
you begin to develop those skills? Can you change your
957
00:54:35.250 --> 00:54:37.670
current role a little bit so that you learn something
958
00:54:37.690 --> 00:54:41.380
that's taking you a step in the direction of your dreams?
959
00:54:41.519 --> 00:54:44.980
One of my favorite stories that Russ Larraway tells is
960
00:54:45.000 --> 00:54:50.119
he was. managing a woman who was selling DoubleClick ad servers.
961
00:54:50.320 --> 00:54:52.920
And one of her dreams was to own and operate
962
00:54:52.940 --> 00:54:57.920
a spirulina farm. So like you can't imagine that her
963
00:54:58.059 --> 00:55:02.590
job selling DoubleClick ad servers was gonna have anything to
964
00:55:02.610 --> 00:55:06.030
do with owning and operating a spirulina farm. But it
965
00:55:06.090 --> 00:55:09.829
turned out that one of the important skills she needed
966
00:55:09.889 --> 00:55:13.610
to develop to achieve that dream was to learn how
967
00:55:13.630 --> 00:55:16.829
to be a better manager. And in fact, she had Russ,
968
00:55:17.010 --> 00:55:19.550
one of the best managers at Google, teaching her how
969
00:55:19.590 --> 00:55:21.710
to be a good manager. She was also in Sheryl
970
00:55:21.730 --> 00:55:25.389
Sandberg's organization. So all of a sudden, this job, which
971
00:55:25.429 --> 00:55:29.030
had seemed sort of meaningless to her, was very meaningful.
972
00:55:29.159 --> 00:55:31.239
It was taking her a step in the direction of
973
00:55:31.320 --> 00:55:34.699
her dreams. So figure out like how can you adjust
974
00:55:34.719 --> 00:55:37.980
your role so that you're learning things that are taking
975
00:55:38.019 --> 00:55:40.070
you a step in the direction of your dreams. Who
976
00:55:40.110 --> 00:55:42.289
are the people you can meet and talk to who
977
00:55:42.329 --> 00:55:44.449
are going to help you take a step in the
978
00:55:44.489 --> 00:55:48.070
direction of your dreams? What are the things you can learn,
979
00:55:48.110 --> 00:55:50.409
the books you can read, the classes you can attend
980
00:55:50.829 --> 00:55:53.289
that are going to help build those skills? And I
981
00:55:53.349 --> 00:55:57.530
think thinking more broadly about your career and avoiding the
982
00:55:58.159 --> 00:56:03.300
kind of narrow promotion obsession, resume obsession is the best
983
00:56:03.340 --> 00:56:05.679
thing you can do to build a career that's going
984
00:56:05.699 --> 00:56:08.159
to really get you where you want to go in life.
985
00:56:08.679 --> 00:56:10.739
Yeah, you don't have to go about checking boxes.
986
00:56:11.500 --> 00:56:11.800
No.
987
00:56:12.000 --> 00:56:14.139
Or if you're going to check them, create them for
988
00:56:14.280 --> 00:56:17.750
a good, meaningful reason. And when you oftentimes have heard
989
00:56:17.829 --> 00:56:19.469
someone say, well, I took that job because I thought
990
00:56:19.489 --> 00:56:22.130
I would look really good on my resume. Some of
991
00:56:22.150 --> 00:56:25.349
their priorities are backwards. And maybe they're listening now.
992
00:56:25.369 --> 00:56:27.880
They've done that. And maybe I'm sure people have.
993
00:56:28.719 --> 00:56:29.420
We've all done it.
994
00:56:29.500 --> 00:56:29.889
I get it.
995
00:56:29.940 --> 00:56:30.900
We've all made those mistakes.
996
00:56:30.920 --> 00:56:31.659
Yeah, we've all made it.
997
00:56:31.719 --> 00:56:33.619
And so it's just time to take a step back
998
00:56:33.679 --> 00:56:35.460
and think and maybe watch the birds a little bit.
999
00:56:35.989 --> 00:56:39.610
As Wilbur and Orville did. So Kim, I love this talk.
1000
00:56:39.849 --> 00:56:41.030
We're going to have to do it again because I
1001
00:56:41.070 --> 00:56:45.420
have tons more notes, but this was really, I just
1002
00:56:45.460 --> 00:56:49.300
appreciate the energy and intellect you bring to the conversation.
1003
00:56:49.340 --> 00:56:51.219
And I want to thank you for putting this book out,
1004
00:56:51.610 --> 00:56:53.869
making us aware of radical candor. I think this could,
1005
00:56:54.369 --> 00:56:56.630
It already has changed many people's.
1006
00:56:56.369 --> 00:56:58.750
Lives all over the world, and I want to acknowledge that.
1007
00:56:58.789 --> 00:57:00.650
And I appreciate you doing that.
1008
00:57:00.989 --> 00:57:01.769
One more question, though.
1009
00:57:01.789 --> 00:57:05.230
When you saw somebody with a podcast with the title
1010
00:57:05.329 --> 00:57:10.570
of Learning Leader in the email, what was the first
1011
00:57:10.650 --> 00:57:12.969
thought that came to mind when you saw that phrase,
1012
00:57:13.070 --> 00:57:14.030
Learning Leader?
1013
00:57:15.349 --> 00:57:18.590
It is so important for leaders to be learners and
1014
00:57:18.630 --> 00:57:21.969
not knowers. So I think it says a lot. The
1015
00:57:22.010 --> 00:57:26.369
learning leader is the leader who listens, who doesn't try
1016
00:57:26.429 --> 00:57:28.989
to tell people what to do. So I love the title,
1017
00:57:29.369 --> 00:57:30.030
Learning Leader.
1018
00:57:30.929 --> 00:57:32.239
Thank you. I appreciate that.
1019
00:57:32.800 --> 00:57:36.900
And I'm a firm believer in that aspect of you've
1020
00:57:36.940 --> 00:57:39.480
never arrived, you're always becoming. And I think that's a
1021
00:57:40.780 --> 00:57:43.420
Big aspect of being a learning leader. And I appreciate
1022
00:57:43.440 --> 00:57:45.519
you sharing. Where would you send my listeners to learn
1023
00:57:45.559 --> 00:57:46.480
more about you online?
1024
00:57:47.659 --> 00:57:51.019
Online, you can go to RadicalCandor.com or you can listen
1025
00:57:51.079 --> 00:57:55.010
to the Radical Candor podcast, which is about how not
1026
00:57:55.050 --> 00:57:57.349
to hate the boss you have or be the boss
1027
00:57:57.389 --> 00:57:57.769
you hate.
1028
00:57:59.130 --> 00:58:00.949
I love it. Well, Kim, thanks so much.
1029
00:58:00.989 --> 00:58:03.170
Again, I meant it when I say I want to
1030
00:58:03.210 --> 00:58:06.030
continue our dialogue as we both progress because I love
1031
00:58:06.090 --> 00:58:09.210
what you're doing and I want to continue us talking.
1032
00:58:09.940 --> 00:58:12.389
I really look forward to it. It's a fun conversation.
1033
00:58:12.610 --> 00:58:13.289
Awesome. Thanks, Kim.
1034
00:58:13.969 --> 00:58:15.530
Okay. Thank you. Bye-bye.
1035
00:58:17.530 --> 00:58:19.989
This episode of The Learning Leader Show is over, but
1036
00:58:20.010 --> 00:58:22.179
we have plenty more to keep you locked in until
1037
00:58:22.239 --> 00:58:26.739
next time. Head over to learningleadershow.com for more information and
1038
00:58:26.780 --> 00:58:31.360
to request your favorite entrepreneur, CEO, world-class athlete, or anyone
1039
00:58:31.400 --> 00:58:34.059
else that inspires you. You can also talk to Ryan
1040
00:58:34.079 --> 00:58:37.380
directly by reaching out to him on Twitter at RyanHawk12.
1041
00:58:37.940 --> 00:58:39.980
Thanks again, and we'll see you next time on The
1042
00:58:40.039 --> 00:58:40.889
Learning Leader Show.
1043
00:58:48.010 --> 00:58:50.750
This episode is brought to you by my friends at
1044
00:58:50.849 --> 00:58:55.219
Callaway Golf. Callaway's business and marketing approach has turned heads
1045
00:58:55.280 --> 00:58:57.519
over the last several years, helping the company make a
1046
00:58:57.559 --> 00:59:00.860
dramatic turnaround from losing millions of dollars per year to
1047
00:59:00.900 --> 00:59:04.769
being a leader in the industry. Products like the GBB
1048
00:59:04.969 --> 00:59:09.530
Epic Driver, Steelhead XR Irons, and Callaway's Chrome Soft are
1049
00:59:10.260 --> 00:59:14.219
Ball are aimed at avid golfers looking for premium performance.
1050
00:59:14.239 --> 00:59:17.139
And the coolest part about this partnership is we're doing
1051
00:59:17.159 --> 00:59:21.159
a giveaway. Yes, we're giving away the number one selling
1052
00:59:21.199 --> 00:59:25.929
driver of 2017, the GBB Epic Driver. All you have
1053
00:59:25.969 --> 00:59:30.550
to do is put your favorite leadership quote pulled from
1054
00:59:30.590 --> 00:59:35.409
an episode of The Learning Leader Show on Twitter or Instagram.
1055
00:59:35.429 --> 00:59:38.530
So pull your favorite leadership quote that any of the
1056
00:59:38.610 --> 00:59:42.159
greatest leadership minds over the last three years from The
1057
00:59:42.199 --> 00:59:45.420
Learning Leader Show has said. Quote them on Twitter or
1058
00:59:45.500 --> 00:59:51.800
Instagram and tag my name, at RyanHawk12, at RyanHawk12 on
1059
00:59:51.900 --> 00:59:56.380
Twitter or Instagram. My team will gather all of the
1060
00:59:56.440 --> 00:59:58.840
quotes and you can enter as many times you'd like.
1061
00:59:58.860 --> 01:00:00.780
The more times that you enter, the better chance you
1062
01:00:00.800 --> 01:00:03.840
have of winning. And over the course of a few months,
1063
01:00:04.000 --> 01:00:06.039
we will gather them all and then we will draw
1064
01:00:06.059 --> 01:00:08.530
a random winner. And my friends at Callaway will send
1065
01:00:08.550 --> 01:00:10.929
you the GBB Epic Driver.
1066
01:00:10.989 --> 01:00:12.010
Thank you so much.
1067
01:00:12.050 --> 01:00:15.250
I look forward to seeing all of your great responses
1068
01:00:15.369 --> 01:00:18.349
on Twitter and Instagram at RyanHawk12. And thank you to
1069
01:00:18.389 --> 01:00:19.969
my friends at Callaway Golf.
1070
01:00:23.780 --> 01:00:24.289
Are you still there?
1071
01:00:24.969 --> 01:00:25.730
Yep, still here.
1072
01:00:26.510 --> 01:00:31.630
Thank you so much. That was so good. I'm really
1073
01:00:31.650 --> 01:00:34.159
appreciative of you just being able to dive deep, tell
1074
01:00:34.280 --> 01:00:37.159
great stories. As I mentioned before, I think the story
1075
01:00:37.260 --> 01:00:41.079
aspect is huge when it comes to speeches, to keynotes.
1076
01:00:41.460 --> 01:00:44.940
And I noticed that you never use um or fillers.
1077
01:00:45.000 --> 01:00:47.840
So that speaking coach must have seriously had a big
1078
01:00:47.900 --> 01:00:48.550
impact on you.
1079
01:00:48.860 --> 01:00:51.489
SMP communications had a really big impact. I do.
1080
01:00:51.530 --> 01:00:53.289
How did they do it? What did they do? What's
1081
01:00:53.329 --> 01:00:54.690
a quick thing they did? I should have put this
1082
01:00:54.710 --> 01:00:56.230
in the episode, but what's a quick thing they did?
1083
01:00:56.849 --> 01:00:59.769
You know, the key thing that they taught me was
1084
01:00:59.809 --> 01:01:02.840
that the reason why I say um is that I'm
1085
01:01:02.980 --> 01:01:04.199
uncomfortable with silence.
1086
01:01:05.099 --> 01:01:06.960
Ah, okay. Or you're not prepared.
1087
01:01:07.019 --> 01:01:09.519
Some coaches have told me that, like, If you're not
1088
01:01:09.559 --> 01:01:13.199
fully prepared, you might say like or um or you know.
1089
01:01:13.260 --> 01:01:16.280
And I do all those things, unfortunately. But that's what
1090
01:01:16.380 --> 01:01:17.900
people have shared with me.
1091
01:01:18.059 --> 01:01:18.579
What do you think?
1092
01:01:19.320 --> 01:01:24.619
I think that can happen. But I don't think that usually,
1093
01:01:24.800 --> 01:01:28.760
even if you are prepared, you'll often say um. At
1094
01:01:28.800 --> 01:01:32.360
least I did. Even if I was incredibly well prepared,
1095
01:01:32.539 --> 01:01:38.699
I would say um. And the reason was that Sometimes
1096
01:01:38.780 --> 01:01:42.840
there is a natural silence. Even when you're prepared, sometimes
1097
01:01:42.860 --> 01:01:45.880
you need to just gather your thoughts. Or sometimes you
1098
01:01:45.920 --> 01:01:49.619
need to wait for a reaction. And if you're not
1099
01:01:49.940 --> 01:01:54.500
comfortable with silence, you don't give yourself the space to
1100
01:01:54.639 --> 01:01:59.679
either collect your thoughts or wait for an audience's reaction.
1101
01:01:59.760 --> 01:02:02.699
It's sort of like it's a form of not listening
1102
01:02:03.019 --> 01:02:05.719
to the audience as you're talking, if you say, um.
1103
01:02:06.480 --> 01:02:07.300
Yeah, it makes sense.
1104
01:02:08.090 --> 01:02:10.960
Well, you do it really well and tell the story.
1105
01:02:11.019 --> 01:02:12.980
And obviously, it probably is a combination of all the
1106
01:02:13.039 --> 01:02:15.820
reps you get speaking and podcasting and everything like that
1107
01:02:15.860 --> 01:02:16.619
and the interviews you do.
1108
01:02:16.659 --> 01:02:19.920
But I appreciate it. I really do. I'll be sure.
1109
01:02:20.099 --> 01:02:23.619
Is there anything that we missed or anything that we
1110
01:02:23.639 --> 01:02:25.460
did that you didn't like or what did you think?
1111
01:02:26.139 --> 01:02:28.840
No, I felt really good about the conversation. I felt
1112
01:02:28.889 --> 01:02:31.849
like I rambled a little bit a couple of times.
1113
01:02:31.969 --> 01:02:32.329
It was good.
1114
01:02:32.510 --> 01:02:34.820
That's why podcasts are great because you can You can
1115
01:02:34.860 --> 01:02:36.300
go deep on topics and I love this.
1116
01:02:36.320 --> 01:02:39.400
So I would be honest with you. I promise you're
1117
01:02:39.420 --> 01:02:41.579
the one person I can't lie to. I can't lie
1118
01:02:41.599 --> 01:02:43.239
to anybody, but I can't be too nice.
1119
01:02:43.260 --> 01:02:46.710
I have to be candid with you, but no, I'll
1120
01:02:46.750 --> 01:02:49.769
be sure when we get this one put together, slap
1121
01:02:49.889 --> 01:02:51.809
on an intro and outro, I'll be sure to let
1122
01:02:52.210 --> 01:02:54.269
you and your team know and send you a note
1123
01:02:54.329 --> 01:02:56.030
when it goes live.
1124
01:02:57.849 --> 01:03:00.199
We'll give it some social media love. And if you,
1125
01:03:00.639 --> 01:03:03.079
if you can put a link to the podcast, uh
1126
01:03:03.280 --> 01:03:05.219
book on amazon that would be awesome.
1127
01:03:05.039 --> 01:03:07.639
Oh yeah i have show notes at learningleader.com so i'll
1128
01:03:07.659 --> 01:03:09.280
make sure that all the show notes are there as
1129
01:03:09.340 --> 01:03:12.280
well as within apple podcast stitcher all that stuff that
1130
01:03:12.480 --> 01:03:14.260
uh it is right in there a link to to
1131
01:03:14.300 --> 01:03:16.659
get to get the book and i've already been recommending
1132
01:03:16.719 --> 01:03:19.590
it been a book of my mindful monday emails i
1133
01:03:19.610 --> 01:03:22.710
send out to my my community so i i'm a
1134
01:03:22.750 --> 01:03:24.650
big big fan kim so it was cool for me
1135
01:03:24.690 --> 01:03:25.829
to be able to have this one with you.
1136
01:03:26.349 --> 01:03:29.590
Well thanks so much really really enjoyed the conversation.
1137
01:03:29.269 --> 01:03:31.210
Awesome all right thanks kim okay
1138
01:03:31.230 --> 01:03:32.840
Take care okay bye Bye-bye.