113: David Meerman Scott – How Donald Trump Has Mastered NewsJacking

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I saw patterns that nobody else was seeing, starting back
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in the late 1990s. I saw the pattern that what
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marketing is on the web is not about advertising, like
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everybody else was saying it was, but it was about content.
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And the reason I was able to understand it is
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because I had already had 15 years of understanding what
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content is and how it worked. real-time content and how
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it worked on the basis of having been a bond
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trader and on the basis of having been a marketing
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person at real-time information companies. So I was really, really
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lucky to be able to have the experience that allowed
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me to see the patterns that nobody else was seeing.
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Because at that time, nobody was saying that marketing on
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the web is about content.
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Are leaders born or are they made? Our host, Ryan Hawk,
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believes that leaders can be made through determined, focused work
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on learning the art and science behind the makeup of
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other successful leaders. Now it's time to inhale knowledge and
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exhale success. You're listening to The Learning Leader Show with
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Ryan Hawk.
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Hey, guys, before we get to this great conversation, I
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want to let you know that this episode was brought
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to you by Mizzen and Main. You'll probably remember from
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episode 64, I spoke with the CEO of Mizzen and Main,
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Kevin Lavelle. And, you know, we promised to continue that
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dialogue as we both progressed on our journeys. And we
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certainly have. And we formed a partnership. Kevin and his
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great companies and support and people that he works with
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work with people who I truly believed in their products.
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tried one. But the four-way stretch fabric is literally like
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nothing I've ever felt before. And so originally I bought
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one just to try them out to see if this
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is really true. A button-down shirt that looks great with
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a suit or in business casual. I'm like, there's no
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way this thing is going to feel like people tell
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me it will. Well, it felt even better than that.
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And so after I bought that first shirt, I ended
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up buying six more shirts and two Henley's. And so
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we've set up a deal for you guys to go
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and you'll get $ 50 off. Again, I love Mizzen and Main.
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I love everything they stand for. And I promise when
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you try the shirt, you will too. Hey, and welcome
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to The Learning Leader Show. I am Ryan Hawk. Really
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excited about tonight's featured leader is David Meerman Scott. He
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is the author or co-author of 10 books, three of
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which are international bestsellers, including The New Rules of Marketing
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and PR, as well as News Jacking. Those are the
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two primary books we discussed during our conversation tonight. He's
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also an advisor to some of the most successful businesses
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in the world, and he's a top-rated keynote speaker who's
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able to charge $ 25, 000 per speech we got into that
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aspect of his business and his revenue streams which I
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found fascinating a few of the other things we got
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into the importance of being incredibly curious mixed with having
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no fear and I enjoyed this part of our conversation
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because David does a good job of expanding on curiosity
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and fearlessness and I found it to be really interesting
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and then how Miley Cyrus embodies great leadership I had
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a ton of notes prepared for this conversation with David.
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I watched his speeches. I read a ton of things
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about him. This is one aspect that I did not
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think we would go to. And I love that Miley
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Cyrus is one of the examples he used. And then
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why it's important for all of us to invest in
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a coach and the impact his speaking coach has had
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on his life and how that relates to all of us.
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And we can all learn from that experience that he's had.
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Ladies and gentlemen, without further ado, it's David Meerman Scott. David,
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thank you so much for being here. Excited to have
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you on The Learning Leader Show. Got a quick question
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to get us rolling, and that's around people who have
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sustained excellence over an extended period of time. You're definitely
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one of these types of people. You've spent time around
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a lot of those types of people, and I'm curious,
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what are some of the common characteristics that people who
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have sustained excellence all seem to share?
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Thanks, Ryan. It's great to be here on the show.
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I love speaking about excellence, and it's really great.
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To be here.
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So, gosh, what I see a lot are people, and
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I sort of think of this around myself, too, people
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who are incredibly curious, people who are not afraid to
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try something new, people who are eager to learn something new.
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And in my mind, these are some characteristics that I
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think I have and that I see in other people
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where I think that lots of people fall.
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Down on how to move forward. especially is this idea
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of fear.
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You know, they're used to something having been a certain way.
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They don't like to change. They may not even be
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conscious of this, but essentially what they're talking about is fear. Now,
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I don't want to venture into politics. I think it's
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always a bad idea on a podcast to venture into politics.
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But I would say that some of the discourse going
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on in our political world right now with the presidential
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primaries is have been around who's fearful and who's not fearful.
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And you erase that fear, push forward, get curious, learn
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something new, and you're off and running. And I think
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that's true of the leaders that I'm familiar with. In fact,
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I I spent time in the last two or three
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months up in New Hampshire. I live in the Boston
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area up in New Hampshire, going to visit the various
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candidates' events. I had a chance to go to Bernie
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Sanders and Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump and Marco Rubio.
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And John Kasich.
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And it was really an interesting process to see how
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people interact with those who they are looking to as
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potentially their leaders.
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Interesting you brought them up. I wasn't going to go here,
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but since you did and you got to see them.
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Well, and I'm not talking about the politics part. Oh,
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I know, I know. I'm talking about the marketing and
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the leadership part.
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Absolutely. Yeah, I completely get it. From seeing the marketing
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side of things and also witnessing the people themselves, and
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this is not a political show, so it's no big deal.
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I'm curious, who are the ones that you found to
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have this incredible curiosity and maybe a lack of fear?
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Well, what's interesting to me in the analysis I did
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was I focused on specifically on marketing. Who was doing
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marketing in an interesting way? And what I found is
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that Donald Trump actually was the most engaged with his
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audience from the perspective of Donald Trump is very, very
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real time. He's very plugged into marketing. his audience. And
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he is a master at what I call newsjacking. Newsjacking
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is a concept I invented. It's how you can align
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your ideas to a breaking news story. And I've been
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speaking and writing about newsjacking for about five years now.
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I have a site, newsjacking.com, where I have lots of
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stuff about newsjacking. But Donald Trump is fantastic at this,
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because what he does is he figures out what's going
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on in the news or what's going on with what
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his competing candidates in the Republican nomination have said. And
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then he tweets out little snippets. And then the media
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pick up on those snippets and they talk about what
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Donald Trump is saying. And all of that generates free
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attention for him. Whereas Jeb Bush and some of the
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other candidates are spending a whole bunch of money on advertising,
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Donald Trump gets it all free because he's such a
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master at this idea of newsjacking, this idea of real-time
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connection using his Twitter feed.
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You talk about newsjacking though. Do you think he's got
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a pretty big built-in advantage because of his current platform
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that has been built up over the years from everything
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he's done from a hit TV show to all of
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the money, the real estate deals, all of his business practices,
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and he's been in the news for many years. Do
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you think that's part of a built-in advantage? Because I'm
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trying to relate this to everyone listening to the show,
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to myself, to others, how they can implement newsjacking. I'm
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sure we'll get there to this conversation, but it feels
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like having that advantage is certainly helpful.
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Of course, of course.
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What you've done in the past always influences what you're
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planning on doing in the future. There's no question about that. However,
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I've been doing this analysis now actually since the 2004
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presidential cycle. I've been focused on U.S. presidential politics, the
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marketing aspects of it now for 12 years. And what's
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interesting to me is that in each cycle, somebody who
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focuses on the newer platforms tends to have a bump
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as a result of doing that.
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And it's Donald Trump's turn this year to figure that out.
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Now, yes, He did have a platform before he started
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this campaign. But I'm specifically just looking at his real-time engagement.
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He had about around— I don't know the exact number, but
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around 2 million followers on Twitter when he first jumped
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into the race. And last time I checked, he was
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over 5 million. And while we're talking here, I'll just
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look at it again. Over 5 million Twitter followers. So
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he's clearly— understanding as I'm, Oh no, 6.14 million Twitter followers.
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So he's added something like 4 million Twitter followers in
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less than six months that he's been.
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Running for office.
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So I would say that, yes, um, It is important
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in terms of where you start from as a leader,
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but it's also important to understand that you can't just
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rely on what you did in the past. You have
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to really focus on what's going on in the future.
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And the fact that he's been able to more than
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triple his number of followers is based on the engagement
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that he does.
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I think that's sort of a really interesting point.
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Agreed. Think about other people who are incredibly curious, who
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are not afraid to try something new, who lack fear,
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or at least they're able to deal with their fear
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better than others. Who are some other people that come
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to mind?
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And by the way, then also interestingly here, some of
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the other candidates are basically running on last cycle's playbook.
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The playbook to be elected to the presidency of the
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United States is to spend a whole lot of money
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in television advertising. And that's what some of these other candidates,
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most of these other candidates are doing. So I just
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look at it as being really, really interesting. Again, don't
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be fearful. Go with your own path. I'm going to
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choose a kind of a radical example here, but let's
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talk about Miley Cyrus for a second. Miley Cyrus was
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a Disney star. She was somebody who was an employee
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of Disney when she had her show, Hannah Montana, several
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years ago. And she had a large group of of
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typically young girls who followed that program. And then when
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the show went its way and she stopped doing that,
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she needed to become her own person. And interestingly, she's
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become a leader of a group of people who are
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incredibly passionate followers of what she's doing. And At this
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same time, she was growing up in front of our
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eyes and has become, in a sense, a leader of
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a large group of people. And she did that certainly
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from a platform that Disney had initially established for her,
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but she totally broke out from it. And I look
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at that as being very fearless. I mean, I think
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she's doing incredibly fearless. And in many cases, people dismiss
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her as, because of some of her actions as being
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a little bit on.
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The outrageous side. But I think she's fascinating.
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And I think she's done an incredible job at bringing
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a group of people along with her. She also has
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an organization called the Happy Hippie Foundation, which is providing
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a lot of great work for LGBT communities. So I
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think that when we open our eyes and look kind
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of beyond the obvious for our leaders— and leadership qualities.
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I'm always interested in trying to find who out there
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is somebody who maybe isn't considered a leader in the
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traditional sense, but has the skills and the characteristics of
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leadership that I think can work in many other industries. So,
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you know, what can we learn from Miley Cyrus? Totally
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taken to social networks. She's absolutely fearless in She is
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her own, absolutely her own person. You know, she doesn't
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let anyone else define her. She defines herself. She is
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willing to put product out there that she believes in
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even if the critics don't necessarily believe in it.
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You know, fascinating stuff.
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Really interesting example you bring up. And I love that
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you went there because it's not what I was expecting.
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No.
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And actually, I'm so fascinated by her as an example.
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And I actually went to her show a couple months
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ago here in Boston. And she was playing Backed by
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the Flaming Lips at a club, the House of Blues
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in Boston. I mean, this is a small, like sort
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of 2,000-person club. And there's Miley Cyrus backed by Flaming Lips.
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It was incredible to be able to see her in
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action after having thought about her and written about her
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a number of different times.
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Have you seen the YouTube clip of her singing the
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song Jolene?
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I have not.
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After people get done listening to this episode, just go
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to YouTube and look at that. And, man, what a voice.
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Oh, she's got a great voice.
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Oh, man.
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The one that I think really showcases her voice.
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She has a wonderful cover of 50 Ways to Leave
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Your Lover.
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It's a Paul Simon song. And just fantastic. So, yeah,
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besides that, she's talented. But I think she has interesting
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leadership qualities. And I don't know anyone else who would
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ever say that or necessarily even agree with me. But
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I think we can find leaders in unique places.
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So, David, as I'm preparing for our time together, I've
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read over a number of different things. I've spent hours reading,
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watching videos, doing all that. And nowhere in my notes
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is the name Miley Cyrus. It just goes to show
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you that these conversations can go a number of different areas.
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And I love it. It's so great. So, Dave, I
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do want to dive into you and your story and
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how you've gotten to this point. You know, have written
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either author or co-author of 10 books, international bestsellers. and
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multiple editions translated into 26 different languages. I mean, just
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incredible stats to back up you from an author perspective,
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but a really interesting speaker, entertaining, educational as well. I
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love to hear from you when people ask you, hey, David,
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what do you do? How do you respond to that question?
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How do I respond to that question?
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I help people to achieve their business results and personal results.
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And specifically, I help them understand how to reach buyers
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in the new world of the web. What's been interesting
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about my journey.
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I think, is that I have.
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been extremely lucky to have been able to experience some
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things that very few people were able to experience when
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I experienced them. The first thing was I worked on
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a bond trading desk in New York City. So I
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was able in the late 1980s to be able to
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be on a bond desk and use real-time information from
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companies like Reuters and Dow Jones on a regular basis,
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which got me really thinking about how information is used
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in a real-time world.
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I hated it.
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I was a terrible bond trader. But I loved the
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information behind it, which then I gravitated to the real-time
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information world. And I was Asia marketing director for a
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company called Knight Ritter. Knight Ritter was competing with Dow
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Jones and Reuters and Bloomberg at the time. And I
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was based in Tokyo for seven years, Hong Kong for
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two years. And I had this wonderful opportunity to experience
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the world, to live outside my own country starting at
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age 26, to be able to have incredibly big job
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responsibilities at a very young age. I was the youngest
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director at this Fortune 200 company, Knight Ritter, and was
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able to use my understanding of real-time information when I
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moved back to the U.S., back in the in the
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early 1990s, actually mid-1990s, I was able to use my
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understanding of real-time information to use that same kind of
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real-time information for marketing purposes. Now, where the whole leadership
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idea comes in, I think, was that I saw patterns
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that nobody else was seeing, starting back in the late 1990s.
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I saw the pattern that.
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What marketing is on the web is not about advertising,
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like everybody else was saying it was, but it was
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about content. And the reason I was able to understand
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it is because I had already had 15 years of
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understanding what content is and how it works. real-time content
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and how it worked on the basis of having been
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a bond trader and on the basis of having been
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a marketing person at real-time information companies.
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So I was really, really lucky to be able to have.
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The experience that allowed me to see the patterns that
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nobody else was seeing. Because at that time, Nobody was
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saying that marketing on the web is about content. And
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it was way before social networking. So nobody was conscious
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of the idea of real-time engagement, real-time communications, because social
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media didn't exist at that point. And so marketing was
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about advertising. Marketing was about campaigns itself. you create content
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when you want to create it rather than when the
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market's ready. So I was really lucky to be able
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to see these patterns that nobody else was seeing. But
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I think the leadership part comes in was that I
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was fearless, fearless, about getting those ideas out into the marketplace,
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even when a huge number of people were utterly resistant
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of these ideas. I mean, think about advertising agency. The
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vested interest of an advertising agency is to maintain the
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status quo that people have to spend a lot of
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money on traditional advertising. And I'm not saying traditional advertising
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is going away, and if it's working for your organization, great,
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continue to spend money on it. However, for a lot
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of organizations, Traditional advertising just doesn't work as well anymore.
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So I was the one starting more than 10 years ago.
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I was the one who was jumping up and down saying, hey,
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this stuff is marketing on the web is about reaching
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people as they're going to search engines, about reaching people
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as they're looking for products and services to buy, as
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they're looking for companies to do business with. And so
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I fearlessly pushed my ideas out there, even with active
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resistance from vested interests. And now, fast forward more than
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10 years later, after I first started doing that. And
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there's tons and tons and tons of people who now
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recognize that that is the way the world is going,
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that we do engage instantly in social networks, that if
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a company is mentioned on Twitter, they can see that instantly.
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If somebody changes their LinkedIn status instantly. To reflect that
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they have a new job, that's a sales signal for
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a company that might be doing business with that individual.
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So lots of things have changed as a result. But
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I think I was lucky in where I started and
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how my career path went. And then I was fearless
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in implementing what I saw as the new patterns of
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the world.
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One of the things you mentioned, and you've written a
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book about this, and there's a lot online that you
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have about this, that you said that the phrase you
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coined is newsjacking.
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Yeah.
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And you mentioned how Donald Trump is great at newsjacking.
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And I spoke with Ryan Holiday a little bit about
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some of this as well, who wrote the bestselling book,
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Trust Me, I'm Lying. which there's some similarities here. If
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you search for each of your books in Amazon, they
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both will pop up. And I'm curious, not for the
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Donald Trumps of the world or for people who already
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have a platform, but people maybe who don't have as
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big of a platform, how they could implement news jacking
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into their work. So let's just, for example, here to
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make it easy, and I do this often, say it's
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for the case of me and what I've got going
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on here at the Learning Leader Show, a little bit
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of a platform, certainly not on a level of a
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Donald Trump, but somebody who obviously is looking to generate
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media coverage, positive earned PR, so to speak. What would
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be your advice to from a newsjacking perspective, or maybe
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there's something in addition to that for me and the
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Learning Leader Show.
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Okay, great.
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So like I said earlier, newsjacking is the art and
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science of injecting your ideas into a breaking news story.
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And Ryan knows the concept really well and has used
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it himself.
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And so I think the.
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Idea here is that for you, You need to inject
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your expertise into a story that's happening in the world. Now,
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let me start by just giving an example of somebody
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who was listening to me speak, just like many people
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are listening to this podcast right now, hearing about these
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ideas of newsjacking, and then realized, wow, I can take
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advantage of these ideas in my own business now. And
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his name is Trent Silver. He happens to be a
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22-year-old entrepreneur, and he runs a business called Cash for Purses.
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Cash for Purses is an online business where he buys
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people's used handbags, Prada and Louis Vuitton and other high-end
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used handbags. fixes them up and then on-sells them either
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through eBay or through boutiques. And his biggest challenge is
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he needs to get more purses and handbags to be
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able to sell. His biggest challenge is getting more stock.
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So he looks at what's going on in the news
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on the basis of understanding this idea of newsjacking, which
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he learned from me, And he was then able to say, wow,
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I can find people and stories going on in the
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news that I can tie my business to, which is
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exactly what newsjacking is. So just one example he shared
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00:24:34.420 --> 00:24:38.049
with me was that. He learned, as we all did,
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that Lindsay Lohan was having money trouble. She was having
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trouble paying her bills. It became a really big story.
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So he did a blog post where he offered to
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buy Lindsay Lohan's used handbags. Now, this was perfect, because
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every time she was photographed, Lindsay Lohan had a big
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old handbag over her shoulder. And here is Trent Silver
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saying that he's going to buy the handbags and help
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to make her financially secure. And as a result of that,
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he got in tons of publications. He got in People Magazine.
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He got in the Inquisitor. He got in Radar Online.
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He got in the Huffington Post and a whole bunch
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of other ones because all of those journalists were looking
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for another angle on the story of Lindsay Lohan having
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money trouble. So what they then wrote their stories, and
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when the stories were online, they actually pointed to Trent
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Silver's business, Direct Link to Cash for Purses. This generated 8,000
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online inquiries from Trent's business. 18% of them closed for
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new business for Trent. And he generated a quarter of
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a million dollars from this one newsjacking, this one time
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that he focused on Lindsay Lohan, generated a quarter of
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a million dollars. He's a 22-year-old entrepreneur. So that's the
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idea of how newsjacking works. Now, what I would do
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if I were you... is I would look for stories
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that are breaking right now that have a leadership component
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to them. So you could keep your eyes and ears open,
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for example, about how a company is in the process
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of replacing their CEO, or maybe they fired their CEO
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for whatever reason, or perhaps you could tie to the
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presidential primaries in some way about leadership and presidential leadership.
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and the presidential candidates. Or you could focus perhaps on
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the MBA programs, educations. And when MBA programs, for whatever reason,
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get into the news, there's a leadership component or perhaps
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isn't a leadership component to MBA programs. Any one of
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these could potentially be a story that when it breaks,
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if the world is talking about it, Or your target
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market of potential leaders is talking about it. What you
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do is you then create a real-time piece of content.
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It could be a blog post. It could be a
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YouTube video. It could be tweeting using the proper hashtag.
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Or you could create, you know, since you're in the
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audio game, you could create a really quick audio, almost
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a teaser for your program relating back to that breaking
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news story. And if it's done cleverly and, you know,
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for example, the CEO of whatever Coca-Cola just resigned because
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of some leadership related issue. And all of a sudden
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you're the first person out of the gate talking about
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leadership and in some way referring back to the leader
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of Coca-Cola just losing their job. Then all of a
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sudden you can become someone who gets quoted in the press.
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They can even take your name.
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Blog post comments directly from the post without even talking
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to you and drop them into their stories. And that's
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how you can use newsjacking to generate attention for what
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you're doing and.
482
00:27:53.420 --> 00:27:54.250
For the podcast.
483
00:27:54.829 --> 00:27:56.730
What do you think about writing on your own platform
484
00:27:56.750 --> 00:27:59.849
versus a place like the Huffington Post, for example, which
485
00:27:59.869 --> 00:28:02.180
is a platform that I'm Fortunate to be able to
486
00:28:02.220 --> 00:28:05.019
write on. So what would you say? Would you prefer
487
00:28:05.059 --> 00:28:06.880
this on your own or somebody else's?
488
00:28:07.809 --> 00:28:12.309
I would err towards your own platform, but I would
489
00:28:12.410 --> 00:28:14.490
certainly push it out on a Huffington Post as well.
490
00:28:14.549 --> 00:28:17.009
The reason I say to err on your own platform
491
00:28:17.109 --> 00:28:19.789
is because– and I also write for the Huffington Post
492
00:28:19.809 --> 00:28:22.809
and some other publications, by the way, so I know
493
00:28:23.349 --> 00:28:26.079
what you're going through when you're thinking about that choice–
494
00:28:26.630 --> 00:28:29.210
I think that you're much, much more likely to get
495
00:28:29.319 --> 00:28:32.559
quoted in the press if you're not seen as a
496
00:28:32.619 --> 00:28:36.839
reporter for a competing publication. You know, is the New
497
00:28:36.859 --> 00:28:39.759
York Times going to quote a reporter from the Huffington Post?
498
00:28:41.140 --> 00:28:43.940
I think they're much more likely to quote someone's individual
499
00:28:43.980 --> 00:28:46.640
blog or somebody who is a podcaster than they are
500
00:28:46.660 --> 00:28:50.079
to quote someone who's writing for a competing online publication.
501
00:28:50.880 --> 00:28:53.099
Let me give you a specific example of something I did.
502
00:28:53.960 --> 00:28:57.299
As we're recording this podcast, it's the same week of
503
00:28:57.339 --> 00:29:00.849
the New Hampshire primary. And on Tuesday of the New
504
00:29:00.880 --> 00:29:05.130
Hampshire primary, what I did was I had visited a
505
00:29:05.670 --> 00:29:08.369
number of different campaign events in New Hampshire, which is
506
00:29:08.410 --> 00:29:11.269
just about an hour's drive from where I live in Boston.
507
00:29:12.049 --> 00:29:14.549
And I'd seen Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton and Bernie
508
00:29:14.589 --> 00:29:18.079
Sanders and Marco Rubio and John Kasich and a number
509
00:29:18.099 --> 00:29:21.779
of these events. I wrote a really detailed blog post
510
00:29:21.880 --> 00:29:25.599
on Tuesday talking about the marketing aspects of the different
511
00:29:25.660 --> 00:29:28.440
campaigns with a bunch of photographs. And it was a
512
00:29:28.480 --> 00:29:33.450
very long, intricate, detailed blog post. Pushed that out. I
513
00:29:33.630 --> 00:29:35.359
also put it on the Huffington Post, by the way.
514
00:29:35.369 --> 00:29:35.910
I did both.
515
00:29:36.329 --> 00:29:40.940
But here's an important tip for you. for you because
516
00:29:40.980 --> 00:29:44.200
you also write for Huffington Post. I use different headlines
517
00:29:44.299 --> 00:29:48.650
for the two different stories because I didn't want them
518
00:29:48.710 --> 00:29:51.769
both to appear in the same search engine results if
519
00:29:51.849 --> 00:29:55.109
somebody was looking for somebody to quote the So in
520
00:29:55.450 --> 00:29:58.559
other words, I had two separate stories, even though the
521
00:29:58.640 --> 00:30:02.390
research was essentially the same. And then I pushed that
522
00:30:02.450 --> 00:30:07.109
out on Tuesday, put it out on Facebook, on LinkedIn,
523
00:30:07.170 --> 00:30:09.710
on Twitter, on Google +, so there are a bunch
524
00:30:09.730 --> 00:30:12.480
of different things pointing back to the original story. And
525
00:30:12.779 --> 00:30:14.819
it was one of the most popular blog posts I've
526
00:30:14.839 --> 00:30:17.819
written in the last year. People really loved the idea
527
00:30:17.859 --> 00:30:20.440
that I had gone up to see these different events
528
00:30:20.859 --> 00:30:22.779
and that I was putting it out exactly on the
529
00:30:22.839 --> 00:30:25.809
day that New Hampshire was voting because I was talking
530
00:30:25.849 --> 00:30:28.809
about the New Hampshire primary. I did not get in
531
00:30:28.890 --> 00:30:31.130
any mainstream media as a result of this, but I
532
00:30:31.210 --> 00:30:33.450
did generate lots and lots of attention for me and
533
00:30:33.470 --> 00:30:35.400
my business, and I wouldn't be surprised if I sold
534
00:30:35.460 --> 00:30:37.819
a bunch of books as a result and perhaps even
535
00:30:37.940 --> 00:30:40.500
might end up booking a speaking gig as a result
536
00:30:40.559 --> 00:30:41.059
of doing this.
537
00:30:41.869 --> 00:30:45.670
You mentioned marketing. Selling books, speaking. I know you do
538
00:30:45.690 --> 00:30:47.660
a lot of advisory work as well. Are those your
539
00:30:47.740 --> 00:30:51.460
three primary sources and streams of revenue as those three
540
00:30:51.480 --> 00:30:52.039
different areas?
541
00:30:52.619 --> 00:30:56.440
I actually have four streams. I sell a lot of books.
542
00:30:56.660 --> 00:30:59.920
I've got a bunch of international bestsellers. The New Rules
543
00:30:59.960 --> 00:31:02.259
of Marketing and PR, which the book I'm best known for,
544
00:31:02.279 --> 00:31:05.779
has sold 350,000 copies so far in English. It's in
545
00:31:05.859 --> 00:31:08.769
its fifth edition, which just came out in October, and
546
00:31:08.829 --> 00:31:11.970
it's also available in 28 other languages. So I'm fortunate
547
00:31:12.029 --> 00:31:14.890
that unlike most business book authors, I actually make some.
548
00:31:14.950 --> 00:31:16.309
Real money from my books.
549
00:31:17.430 --> 00:31:20.670
A lot of authors don't because the royalties are so
550
00:31:20.730 --> 00:31:21.519
small these days.
551
00:31:25.140 --> 00:31:28.039
With all the other fees and people that get paid out,
552
00:31:28.119 --> 00:31:29.420
how much do you make per book?
553
00:31:29.880 --> 00:31:31.000
Figure $ 2 a copy.
554
00:31:31.200 --> 00:31:34.339
Okay. All right. So that's just kind of across the board,
555
00:31:34.400 --> 00:31:35.339
most people that are.
556
00:31:35.359 --> 00:31:37.960
It's just a rule of thumb.
557
00:31:38.039 --> 00:31:42.119
If you publish with a recognized business book publisher, like
558
00:31:42.180 --> 00:31:44.650
I've published with Wiley. A lot of my books are
559
00:31:44.690 --> 00:31:49.089
with Wiley. They're the largest business book publisher in North America.
560
00:31:49.130 --> 00:31:51.970
I've also published with MIT Press. One of my books,
561
00:31:52.049 --> 00:31:53.970
Marking the Moon, I published with MIT Press.
562
00:31:54.890 --> 00:31:55.809
And, you know, it depends.
563
00:31:55.869 --> 00:31:59.150
Is it paperback or hardback? You know, what's the retail
564
00:31:59.190 --> 00:32:02.289
price point of the book? But figure rule of thumb,
565
00:32:02.349 --> 00:32:04.799
just like, you know, toss it out there, $ 2 a book.
566
00:32:05.170 --> 00:32:09.099
Okay. What about self-publishing? Would you be able to keep
567
00:32:09.140 --> 00:32:10.240
more of the money that way?
568
00:32:10.259 --> 00:32:11.339
Oh, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
569
00:32:11.519 --> 00:32:12.420
Have you ever considered that?
570
00:32:13.059 --> 00:32:17.150
My first book was self-published, so I have self-published. Yeah,
571
00:32:17.230 --> 00:32:20.109
you keep 100% of the revenue unless you have a
572
00:32:20.150 --> 00:32:23.430
distribution partner and you keep a percentage. And, you know,
573
00:32:23.509 --> 00:32:25.789
Amazon will take some if you sell through Amazon. But
574
00:32:26.519 --> 00:32:29.039
you can certainly make more money. But then you've got
575
00:32:29.299 --> 00:32:31.160
so many other things you have to do. I mean
576
00:32:31.180 --> 00:32:33.599
you have to pay to have the book designed. You
577
00:32:33.640 --> 00:32:35.680
have to pay to have the book proofread. You have
578
00:32:35.720 --> 00:32:39.079
to pay– to have the book warehoused. You have to
579
00:32:39.160 --> 00:32:40.900
pay to have the book marketed.
580
00:32:41.019 --> 00:32:41.579
You have to.
581
00:32:41.559 --> 00:32:45.660
Pay for everything related to, and printing, by the way,
582
00:32:45.680 --> 00:32:48.759
a lot of money, have it printed. And so all
583
00:32:48.779 --> 00:32:51.140
of that has to get done. And also, it's much
584
00:32:51.220 --> 00:32:54.569
harder to get your book in international markets if you self-publish.
585
00:32:54.910 --> 00:32:58.220
You know, my books are in probably 50 or 60
586
00:32:58.220 --> 00:33:02.019
different countries in 28 different languages.
587
00:33:02.200 --> 00:33:06.460
So I'd be going through a bookstore. And I liked
588
00:33:06.569 --> 00:33:06.990
to do this.
589
00:33:07.009 --> 00:33:08.730
It was actually really one of my little hobbies is
590
00:33:09.190 --> 00:33:11.769
I'll be in a country, like I was recently in Dubai.
591
00:33:12.470 --> 00:33:14.089
And I was in Dubai and I went into a
592
00:33:14.109 --> 00:33:16.529
bookstore and there's three or four copies of my different
593
00:33:16.569 --> 00:33:18.390
books sitting in a bookstore in Dubai.
594
00:33:18.430 --> 00:33:20.619
You can't do that if you self-publish.
595
00:33:20.740 --> 00:33:23.960
So Yes, there's lots of different ways to get books out.
596
00:33:24.420 --> 00:33:27.019
So the area that I make the most money in
597
00:33:28.559 --> 00:33:31.380
terms of my revenue is paid speaking gigs. I speak
598
00:33:31.420 --> 00:33:35.029
all over the world. I do on average about 30
599
00:33:35.029 --> 00:33:39.210
paid speaking gigs every year. I've spoken in 41 different countries,
600
00:33:39.289 --> 00:33:42.730
all seven continents, which I love the fact that I spoke.
601
00:33:42.430 --> 00:33:43.410
In Antarctica as well.
602
00:33:43.430 --> 00:33:43.500
Wow.
603
00:33:44.549 --> 00:33:47.490
And I really dig it. I enjoy being on the stage.
604
00:33:47.950 --> 00:33:52.170
I serve as an advisor to SaaS-based marketing and sales
605
00:33:52.650 --> 00:33:56.480
software companies, for example, HubSpot, ExpertFile.
606
00:33:56.940 --> 00:33:58.980
I was on the Eloqua board of advisors before they
607
00:33:59.000 --> 00:33:59.740
were acquired.
608
00:34:00.619 --> 00:34:03.200
So those are sorts of businesses that I serve as
609
00:34:03.240 --> 00:34:07.180
an advisor for. And incidentally, I take equity, not cash,
610
00:34:07.240 --> 00:34:11.679
with my advisory work. So my skin is in their game,
611
00:34:12.179 --> 00:34:15.190
and if they do well, I do well. And then
612
00:34:15.889 --> 00:34:17.989
the fourth area of revenue for me is actually a
613
00:34:18.050 --> 00:34:21.309
new area just in the last two months, and it's
614
00:34:21.389 --> 00:34:23.989
a really exciting area, which is I just started an
615
00:34:24.150 --> 00:34:28.800
online learning school. My first course came out in December.
616
00:34:28.860 --> 00:34:36.170
It's about newsjacking. And it's at www.newsjacking.com. And it's a
617
00:34:36.250 --> 00:34:39.230
self-learning course that people can take to learn how to
618
00:34:39.269 --> 00:34:40.199
do newsjacking.
619
00:34:40.969 --> 00:34:43.730
I love it because it's hard work to put it together.
620
00:34:43.769 --> 00:34:46.349
I mean, I've got eight different lessons, an average of
621
00:34:46.429 --> 00:34:49.239
six pieces of content each lesson, and the majority of
622
00:34:49.300 --> 00:34:52.440
the pieces of content are video. And so it takes
623
00:34:52.480 --> 00:34:54.460
a long time to put it together. But once it's
624
00:34:54.760 --> 00:34:59.300
put together, then it's a revenue source that I can
625
00:34:59.340 --> 00:35:02.300
just have an ongoing revenue source and I like to
626
00:35:02.340 --> 00:35:08.440
say making money while I sleep. Passive income, people subscribe
627
00:35:08.460 --> 00:35:11.860
to that course. And I'm in the process of figuring
628
00:35:11.940 --> 00:35:13.760
out what the second course is that I'm going to
629
00:35:13.960 --> 00:35:16.840
push out with that school as well. But those are
630
00:35:16.860 --> 00:35:19.380
the four areas of revenue that I have for my business.
631
00:35:19.599 --> 00:35:21.599
I assume there's something around the new rules of marketing
632
00:35:21.639 --> 00:35:23.469
and PR just simply based on the fact that you've
633
00:35:23.929 --> 00:35:26.239
sold so many of those books that there's an audience
634
00:35:26.280 --> 00:35:28.289
that's already been built, a tribe, so to speak.
635
00:35:29.170 --> 00:35:32.789
Well, one of the challenges is that book has lots
636
00:35:32.809 --> 00:35:36.449
and lots and lots of different ideas in it. Newsjacking
637
00:35:36.510 --> 00:35:39.380
is a discrete thing that you can learn that, you know,
638
00:35:39.420 --> 00:35:44.000
it's focused on one particular technique and it lends itself
639
00:35:44.079 --> 00:35:47.829
beautifully to an online course. The new rules of marketing
640
00:35:47.929 --> 00:35:51.329
is interesting. you know, an enormous topic and an enormous subject.
641
00:35:51.389 --> 00:35:53.889
So I'm trying to, that's, I actually don't have the
642
00:35:53.989 --> 00:35:56.469
answer right now about what the next course is. Um,
643
00:35:56.909 --> 00:35:59.210
if I tackle the new rules of marketing and PR
644
00:35:59.289 --> 00:36:03.570
as a course, it's a big ass course. We'll see
645
00:36:03.590 --> 00:36:04.179
what I end up doing.
646
00:36:04.679 --> 00:36:06.639
I got to talk to me about your public speaking
647
00:36:06.679 --> 00:36:08.940
because I've watched your videos and preparing for this. And
648
00:36:09.679 --> 00:36:12.260
obviously you do a great job. And what was that?
649
00:36:12.400 --> 00:36:16.090
Where have you, like, how do you develop that skill? I'm, I'm, I'm,
650
00:36:16.869 --> 00:36:19.289
really getting into this right now personally. So I love
651
00:36:19.309 --> 00:36:21.869
to hear from others who, how it was at the
652
00:36:21.909 --> 00:36:24.269
beginning versus how it is right now and some of
653
00:36:24.289 --> 00:36:27.559
the things along the way in order to, that maybe
654
00:36:27.579 --> 00:36:29.820
there's little tips and tricks I could tease out that
655
00:36:30.300 --> 00:36:33.059
have helped you become a great public speaker.
656
00:36:34.309 --> 00:36:37.150
Yeah, thank you for saying that. I am a huge
657
00:36:37.250 --> 00:36:37.960
student of it.
658
00:36:38.369 --> 00:36:44.000
It's very, very important for me to do as great
659
00:36:44.059 --> 00:36:47.739
a speech as I can. I fortunately have been able
660
00:36:47.760 --> 00:36:51.920
to develop some skills there. And I'm able to do
661
00:36:51.980 --> 00:36:54.929
a presentation that typically I'm not rated the top speaker
662
00:36:54.969 --> 00:36:56.050
when I do speak at.
663
00:36:56.010 --> 00:36:57.250
A conference or an event.
664
00:36:57.690 --> 00:37:01.469
So, you know, going back, I actually started doing Toastmasters,
665
00:37:01.530 --> 00:37:03.969
which is a great sort of, I guess you'd call
666
00:37:03.989 --> 00:37:07.610
it a club of like-minded people who help one another
667
00:37:07.679 --> 00:37:11.039
to develop public speaking skills. And I was in a
668
00:37:11.059 --> 00:37:15.019
Toastmasters club in Tokyo starting way, way, way back in 1989.
669
00:37:15.000 --> 00:37:18.599
Wow. Actually, 1988, I think.
670
00:37:18.940 --> 00:37:22.050
And so I started my journey of learning how to
671
00:37:22.429 --> 00:37:26.309
be a good public speaker back in 1988. I can't
672
00:37:26.349 --> 00:37:28.840
even count how many years ago that was. And I
673
00:37:28.880 --> 00:37:32.519
was focused on developing the skills around public speaking. I
674
00:37:32.579 --> 00:37:35.900
did that for about six years. I did a bunch
675
00:37:35.920 --> 00:37:38.510
of speaking for my work when I worked for companies.
676
00:37:38.630 --> 00:37:40.110
I was able to develop that way.
677
00:37:40.530 --> 00:37:45.250
But it wasn't until about 2004 or so that I
678
00:37:45.329 --> 00:37:47.840
started to speak for.
679
00:37:48.460 --> 00:37:50.239
Money, and I was running my own business.
680
00:37:50.599 --> 00:37:54.320
And initially, it was a small honorarium of a couple
681
00:37:54.360 --> 00:37:57.320
of thousand dollars. And I'm up to now, if I
682
00:37:57.360 --> 00:38:01.309
do an international keynote, it's $ 25, 000 plus travel. But at
683
00:38:01.429 --> 00:38:04.750
that time, I realized that I needed to get better
684
00:38:04.809 --> 00:38:08.030
at public speaking. So I really became a student of it.
685
00:38:08.139 --> 00:38:11.440
I read books about it. I would practice it. And
686
00:38:11.480 --> 00:38:15.139
then in about 2007 or so, roughly 10 years ago,
687
00:38:15.159 --> 00:38:18.010
I think it might have been 06, 07, I connected
688
00:38:18.070 --> 00:38:22.030
with a fantastic guy called Nick Morgan. And Nick is
689
00:38:22.090 --> 00:38:24.849
my speaker coach. And I've been using a speaker coach
690
00:38:24.929 --> 00:38:29.110
now for almost 10 years. And what's great about Nick
691
00:38:29.230 --> 00:38:33.570
is he is a fantastic teacher for public speaking. And,
692
00:38:33.630 --> 00:38:36.889
you know, just like a professional athlete, even though they
693
00:38:36.929 --> 00:38:39.000
might be the best athlete in the world, still has
694
00:38:39.039 --> 00:38:41.500
a coach. I think it's important for me to have.
695
00:38:41.380 --> 00:38:42.380
A coach, which I do.
696
00:38:43.139 --> 00:38:48.969
And my final sort of thought on how I've developed
697
00:38:49.050 --> 00:38:53.750
my public speaking skills is I look a lot at
698
00:38:54.050 --> 00:38:56.969
public speakers who are good and see what they do
699
00:38:57.010 --> 00:39:00.159
and how they do it. I had a chance, for example,
700
00:39:00.300 --> 00:39:03.000
on Monday, just this week on Monday, to see Bill
701
00:39:03.019 --> 00:39:06.280
Clinton speak. This is actually the second time I saw
702
00:39:06.320 --> 00:39:08.610
him speak, but this time I was literally in the
703
00:39:08.659 --> 00:39:11.630
front row. I was about eight feet away from Bill
704
00:39:11.670 --> 00:39:14.250
Clinton as he was speaking, and I was able to
705
00:39:14.329 --> 00:39:16.789
see some of the skills that he used.
706
00:39:16.849 --> 00:39:17.949
And I was able to learn from that.
707
00:39:18.250 --> 00:39:24.110
But surprisingly, I've developed some of my most interesting skills,
708
00:39:24.289 --> 00:39:28.070
not from other people who public speak, but from rock stars.
709
00:39:29.570 --> 00:39:34.699
I'm a huge... live music geek. I'm such a geek.
710
00:39:34.500 --> 00:39:38.670
About it, I have a spreadsheet, and it tells me
711
00:39:38.690 --> 00:39:42.510
that I've seen 630 bands live in concert since the
712
00:39:42.570 --> 00:39:45.190
1970s when I was in high school. And so I
713
00:39:45.269 --> 00:39:49.769
try my best when I'm seeing somebody on a concert stage,
714
00:39:50.230 --> 00:39:53.030
a rock star, how do they move? How do they
715
00:39:53.070 --> 00:39:56.219
work the crowd? Where do they stand? How do they stand?
716
00:39:56.760 --> 00:39:58.360
What are some of the things that they do? How
717
00:39:58.380 --> 00:39:59.800
do they hold the microphone? What are some of the
718
00:39:59.840 --> 00:40:02.920
things they're doing that I can learn from? And in fact,
719
00:40:02.980 --> 00:40:07.710
I've learned a great deal from rock stars. Why does
720
00:40:07.730 --> 00:40:10.989
Mick Jagger command so much audience attention? What does he
721
00:40:11.090 --> 00:40:14.610
do that I can maybe learn from? And I've applied
722
00:40:14.670 --> 00:40:18.380
a number of different techniques that rock stars use in
723
00:40:18.420 --> 00:40:21.460
my events. I'll just give you one example. I will
724
00:40:21.840 --> 00:40:25.719
go early to the stage. I like to do it
725
00:40:25.760 --> 00:40:28.079
the night before. That's my preference. But if I can't
726
00:40:28.099 --> 00:40:30.590
do it the night before, it'll be early the next morning.
727
00:40:31.210 --> 00:40:33.710
And walk the stage and look for somewhere that I
728
00:40:33.769 --> 00:40:38.690
can stand that's kind of unique and weird. You know,
729
00:40:38.730 --> 00:40:41.869
because I learned from rock stars that when you stand
730
00:40:41.949 --> 00:40:44.590
on a speaker or do something strange like that, it
731
00:40:44.659 --> 00:40:47.860
commands attention. So I find somewhere that I can stand.
732
00:40:48.519 --> 00:40:52.079
And during my presentation, I might stand on and I
733
00:40:52.119 --> 00:40:55.739
will have many times stood on speakers, for example. And
734
00:40:55.920 --> 00:41:00.039
I have never in 500 live events that I've spoken at.
735
00:41:00.159 --> 00:41:02.260
I have never seen another speaker do that ever.
736
00:41:02.420 --> 00:41:05.570
Never. Not once. And I learned that from a rock star.
737
00:41:06.159 --> 00:41:07.369
So really interesting.
738
00:41:07.630 --> 00:41:09.610
Yeah, I like that a lot. You know, the other
739
00:41:10.030 --> 00:41:13.170
group that I've studied that I think helps develop some
740
00:41:13.289 --> 00:41:17.550
skill and storytelling and crafting your messages are stand up comedians.
741
00:41:17.730 --> 00:41:18.710
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
742
00:41:18.849 --> 00:41:21.869
I agree with they watch a lot of those YouTube clips,
743
00:41:22.719 --> 00:41:26.099
one because entertaining, but two, because especially the great ones,
744
00:41:26.699 --> 00:41:30.880
they're just the way they're able to put bits together
745
00:41:31.460 --> 00:41:34.860
and how they eliminate all of the unnecessary language that
746
00:41:35.780 --> 00:41:37.820
So they try to scale their jokes back to the
747
00:41:37.900 --> 00:41:40.940
minimum number of words needed in order to get their
748
00:41:41.039 --> 00:41:45.539
point or their joke across. And I think public speakers
749
00:41:45.639 --> 00:41:48.429
could really study those guys and learn from them. But
750
00:41:48.469 --> 00:41:50.329
the other part you mentioned in what you were saying
751
00:41:50.909 --> 00:41:53.889
about having a coach. If there's one thing I found
752
00:41:54.070 --> 00:41:58.409
that great speakers have in common is every single one
753
00:41:58.429 --> 00:42:01.739
of them has a coach. And I'm very I love
754
00:42:01.780 --> 00:42:03.900
that because it shows because there's there are people out
755
00:42:03.920 --> 00:42:06.159
there say, I'm good. I can just study and learn.
756
00:42:06.199 --> 00:42:09.099
But it's just not the case. These guys out there
757
00:42:09.179 --> 00:42:13.590
like you, David, who are charging top dollar. for you
758
00:42:13.630 --> 00:42:17.389
to come and speak, all of them invest in themselves
759
00:42:17.469 --> 00:42:19.800
and in a coach. And I think that's a great
760
00:42:19.860 --> 00:42:22.400
lesson for all of us, anyone listening and for me,
761
00:42:23.000 --> 00:42:25.039
is that if you want to be great at something,
762
00:42:25.119 --> 00:42:28.530
it's important to invest in yourself. invest in a coach
763
00:42:28.590 --> 00:42:31.400
to help you, to critique you, to tell you when
764
00:42:31.420 --> 00:42:33.900
you're doing something right, and more importantly, to tell you
765
00:42:33.920 --> 00:42:35.559
when you need to fix something or tell you an
766
00:42:35.599 --> 00:42:37.099
area where you need to improve. So I love that
767
00:42:37.199 --> 00:42:39.010
aspect of your process.
768
00:42:39.409 --> 00:42:40.110
Yeah, absolutely.
769
00:42:40.130 --> 00:42:44.170
It's been incredibly valuable for me. I mean, I actually
770
00:42:44.230 --> 00:42:48.130
charted when I started working with Nick Morgan. And my
771
00:42:48.590 --> 00:42:52.300
speaker fees that I was collecting per speaking gig. And,
772
00:42:52.360 --> 00:42:54.090
you know, it just goes up and to the right.
773
00:42:54.179 --> 00:42:56.239
You know, it's the graph is going in the right direction.
774
00:42:56.300 --> 00:42:59.420
And I chalk that up to my speaker coach.
775
00:42:59.780 --> 00:43:01.539
Love it. Love it, David. So one more question before
776
00:43:01.559 --> 00:43:03.739
we get out of here. This is all about learning
777
00:43:03.920 --> 00:43:07.039
and leadership. We talked about that prior to hitting record here.
778
00:43:07.059 --> 00:43:09.219
And I got a question for you around that. And
779
00:43:09.579 --> 00:43:11.980
that is when you hear the phrase learning leader, what's
780
00:43:12.019 --> 00:43:13.219
the first thing you think of?
781
00:43:14.079 --> 00:43:15.059
Learning leader.
782
00:43:16.019 --> 00:43:19.440
I think of somebody who recognizes that they don't already
783
00:43:19.480 --> 00:43:21.860
have all the answers and they need to learn what's
784
00:43:21.940 --> 00:43:24.519
coming up next and they need to focus on how
785
00:43:24.559 --> 00:43:25.800
they can make themselves better.
786
00:43:26.780 --> 00:43:28.360
Perfect. I love it.
787
00:43:28.719 --> 00:43:30.000
Is that the right answer?
788
00:43:30.179 --> 00:43:31.900
Well, there is no right answer. The right answer is
789
00:43:31.940 --> 00:43:35.449
what you think. It's your opinion. And so I love it, man. So, David,
790
00:43:36.090 --> 00:43:38.030
I really appreciate you being here. Where would you tell
791
00:43:38.050 --> 00:43:39.329
everyone to find you online?
792
00:43:40.170 --> 00:43:43.880
So my name is David Meerman Scott. And if you
793
00:43:43.909 --> 00:43:46.460
Google that, you will find me and only me. And
794
00:43:46.480 --> 00:43:50.039
that's actually an interesting last thought here is that when
795
00:43:50.099 --> 00:43:53.940
I first started to build an online presence, I realized
796
00:43:54.019 --> 00:43:56.099
I was not the only David Scott in the world.
797
00:43:56.119 --> 00:43:59.260
There were hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of David Scotts
798
00:43:59.300 --> 00:44:00.960
in the world. One of us walked on the moon.
799
00:44:01.760 --> 00:44:04.429
Another David Scott is a member of Congress from Georgia.
800
00:44:04.469 --> 00:44:08.550
Another David Scott was an Ironman triathlon champion. And I
801
00:44:08.570 --> 00:44:11.150
was just not going to be able in the early
802
00:44:11.210 --> 00:44:13.820
days to compete with all of them. So I became
803
00:44:13.920 --> 00:44:17.019
unique in the world when I started using my middle name,
804
00:44:17.179 --> 00:44:17.599
which is.
805
00:44:17.599 --> 00:44:19.239
Meerman, M-E-E-R-M-A-N.
806
00:44:19.900 --> 00:44:21.780
And now I'm the only David Meerman Scott in the
807
00:44:21.820 --> 00:44:24.820
entire planet. So Google my name, you will find me.
808
00:44:24.889 --> 00:44:27.849
If you want to know more about newsjacking, it's newsjacking.com.
809
00:44:28.170 --> 00:44:30.630
I have some free videos. I have some free infographics,
810
00:44:30.650 --> 00:44:32.750
a bunch of stuff you can grab at newsjacking.com.
811
00:44:33.289 --> 00:44:35.349
Perfect. David, thank you so much for being here. I
812
00:44:35.429 --> 00:44:38.829
really appreciate it. I definitely want to continue this conversation
813
00:44:38.869 --> 00:44:41.860
as we both progress because there's a lot here. And
814
00:44:42.260 --> 00:44:44.079
I know I could learn a lot and our listeners
815
00:44:44.420 --> 00:44:45.940
will learn a lot from this conversation as well. So
816
00:44:45.980 --> 00:44:47.019
thank you so much for being here.
817
00:44:47.300 --> 00:44:48.559
My pleasure, Ryan. Thanks very much.
818
00:44:48.679 --> 00:44:48.980
Thanks, David.
819
00:44:49.000 --> 00:44:52.949
Bye. This episode of The Learning Leader Show is over,
820
00:44:53.050 --> 00:44:55.070
but we have plenty more to keep you locked in
821
00:44:55.130 --> 00:44:59.570
until next time. Head over to learningleadershow.com for more information
822
00:44:59.869 --> 00:45:04.110
and to request your favorite entrepreneur, CEO, world-class athlete, or
823
00:45:04.269 --> 00:45:07.000
anyone else that inspires you. You can also talk to
824
00:45:07.039 --> 00:45:10.599
Ryan directly by reaching out to him on Twitter at RyanHawk12.
825
00:45:11.139 --> 00:45:13.199
Thanks again, and we'll see you next time on The
826
00:45:13.260 --> 00:45:14.099
Learning Leader Show.