079: Tucker Max – Attracting Women & How To Write Your Book

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If you start with great fundamentals and you practice those
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over and over, you're going to at least be solid,
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if not very good. Maybe to get to great, you've
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got to work on a lot of fancy stuff, but
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you don't have to. Most of the great people are
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great because they have amazing fundamentals.
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Are leaders born or are they made? Our host, Ryan Hawk,
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believes that leaders can be made through determined, focused work
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on learning the art and science behind the makeup of
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other successful leaders. Now it's time to inhale knowledge and
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exhale success. You're listening to The Learning Leader Show with
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Ryan Hawk.
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Hey, guys, before we get to this great conversation, I
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want to let you know that this episode was brought
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to you by Mizzen and Main. You'll probably remember from
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episode 64, I spoke with the CEO of Mizzen and Main,
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Kevin Lavelle. And, you know, we promised to continue that
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certainly have. And we formed a partnership. And Kevin and
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his great companies and support and people that he works
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wanted to work with people who I truly believed in
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their products. So this is not just a sponsor to me.
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This is an endorsement. I absolutely believe in everything that
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the Lone Survivor, Marcus Luttrell's Fund, or Chris Kyle Frog Foundation.
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there's no way this thing is going to feel like
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than that. And so after I bought that first shirt,
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I promise when you try the shirt, you will too.
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Hey and welcome to the Learning Leader Show. I am
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Ryan Hawk and I am thoroughly excited for you guys
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to hear this one from the one and only Tucker Max.
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With that said, if you are not a fan of
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colorful language, this is not the episode for you and
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I would urge you to skip it and go on
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to the next one. However, if you are okay with that,
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I think you'll really appreciate and enjoy this one. I
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found myself challenged by Tucker during a few different points
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of our conversation, and I don't think that happens all
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that often. Tucker just says exactly what he thinks, exactly
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when he thinks it. And he doesn't apologize and just
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says it. And I think that's why a lot of
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people are drawn to him. But I did find myself
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challenged from it. And I'll be curious to hear if
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you guys think the same thing. For those of you
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who don't know, Tucker Max has written three number one
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New York Times bestsellers, which have sold over three million
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copies worldwide. He is credited with being the originator of
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the literary genre of frat tire and and is only
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the third writer after Malcolm Gladwell and Michael Lewis to
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ever have three books on the New York Times nonfiction
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bestseller list at one time. Truly incredible. A few of
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the things we got into tonight. We discussed his newest book, Mate,
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why he wrote it and what it provides. The subtitle
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is Become the Man Women Want. I don't actually think
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this book is only for single guys. I think it
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can be for married guys like myself because the true
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basis for the book is about becoming a better man
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as a whole, not just to date women, but overall.
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And certainly for married guys, you need to constantly think
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about that as well. We also discussed his newest venture,
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Book in a Box, what they do, how they do it,
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why Tucker wanted to do this, and how they specifically
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help people get the books out of their heads, as
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Tucker would say. We discussed their entire process from start
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to finish of how they help people write books. A
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lot here in this conversation, and I know you guys
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will find it entertaining as well as educational. Ladies and gentlemen,
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it's Tucker Max. All right, Tucker, extremely excited to have
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you here, man, and I appreciate your time. I got
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a question to get us rolling, and that's around success.
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and sustained excellence. And you've been fortunate to spend a
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lot of time around people who have achieved big things,
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who have sustained excellence over a period of time, and
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you're obviously one of those guys. And I'm curious, from
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your perspective, what are some of the common characteristics that
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those people all seem to share?
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That's a good question. There's a lot of stuff written
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on this, and I feel like most of it is
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pretty stupid and pretty bad. Like, I You know, for
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me to really kind of give a deep answer, I'd
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really have to sit down and think about it. But
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I'll tell you just off the top of my head.
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So right away, the first thing I think of when
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I think of people who achieve stuff is that they
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actually do stuff. Which is like one of those things
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that sounds like obvious. Well, obviously, except the difference between
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an entrepreneur and an entrepreneur is action. And it's effective action.
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And so many people think they are taking effective action
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and they are not. What they're doing is just moving
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deck chairs on the Titanic. They're not actually doing anything.
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They're not actually... spending their time on those actions that
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actually move them forward in a real way towards whatever
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it is their goal is. And that's a big thing
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that I think a lot of people, that I think
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high achievers do. The other sort of thing that I
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think is really important is I think people who achieve
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a lot tend to look at reality as it is.
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They're excellent at seeing things the way they actually are,
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but then they also tend to be very good at,
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especially if we're talking about entrepreneurs, they tend to be
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also good at seeing what could be. So they ask
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questions about not just what is, but why it is
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the way it is, and they wonder about other ways
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for it to be, right? Which is... a very uncommon
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thing for a lot of people. And I think most
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people don't, most people just accept things the way they are. Uh, and,
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and which is fine. Like if you just want a normal,
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calm life, there's no problem just taking things the way
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they are and never asking questions and never sort of seeing, uh,
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or never sort of taking a hard look at reality. But, um,
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People who by definition do things unusual or notable or
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big or remarkable almost by definition have to see things
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differently than the ways that other people do. And, yeah,
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those would be the two things I would really point
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at is how they look at the world and then
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as a subsection of that how they ask questions about
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it and then do they convert that perception and those
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questions into effective action or not.
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When you think of sustained excellence, high achievers, success, who
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are– are there people or who are the people that
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pop into your mind immediately? Are there one or two
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people that immediately like, ah, that's who I view or
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my vision of nobody?
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No. Well, it's not that no one is successful. Of
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course they are. It's just that no one to me–
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because you kind of have to be talking about an area.
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Like if you're talking– if you want to talk about– Okay,
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so that's an easy answer. So then immediately you have
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to think of someone like Elon Musk, right? But whereas
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if you just talk about overall success, he's a total
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failure as a father and a husband. But an incredible,
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astounding success who's a great role model for a decision
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maker and an entrepreneur and someone who's impacting society. And
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they're different things. So I know very few people who
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are successful in multiple fields, especially all of the fields
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that really matter. And when I say fields, I mean
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areas of life that really matter. So you have to
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narrow that down. But entrepreneurship, definitely. I don't know if
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you could name anyone who's more of an entrepreneur than
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Elon Musk. You can name people that are maybe in
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that league, but not more.
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That brings up an interesting point. I've talked about this
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with other people, and it's a little bit bothersome actually
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to hear that answer because you want to believe that
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you can do both. But do you think it's possible
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to be a great dad, a great husband, and send
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rockets to Mars and create cars? You don't think it's possible?
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Why? No. So it is possible to be a great
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entrepreneur and a great father and a great husband. Absolutely.
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But he's not just a great entrepreneur. This dude didn't
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start– one great company he started four and three of
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them at once that's incredible that's that's all superhuman. That's
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borderline superhuman. And so, like, no, there's no way. If
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you actually, I don't know how much of Elon Musk
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stuff you've ever read.
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I've read Ashley Vance's book and all of his stuff. Yeah,
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I love it.
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So then you know, like, when people ask him, how
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do you get so much done, he'll say, well, when
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you don't have a social life and you spend all
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your time working, you automatically double the amount of time
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that you have available to work. That's the first thing
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I do. So, I mean, he says it himself. Being
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Elon Musk trades off of being a well-rounded human being.
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But do I think you can be an excellent entrepreneur
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and a father and a husband? Absolutely. There's a lot
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of examples of those. Just no examples of people who
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do what Elon Musk does and also spend time with
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their kids. Yeah.
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Tucker, let's take a minute for, I mean, most people
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listening know who you are, but for the minority of
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the group who doesn't, I'd love to dive into you,
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who you are, and how you've gotten to the point
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to where you currently are at. Now, you're obviously one
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of three people to have three books that are number
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one New York Times bestseller. The other two are Malcolm Gladwell,
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Michael Lewis, Tucker Max.
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No, no, no, that's not right. There's a lot of
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people who have three number one.
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At the same time.
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You can't have three number one at the same time.
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There's only one number one slot. So me and Malcolm
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and Michael are the only three nonfiction authors to have
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three books on the nonfiction list.
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At the same time. Right, right, right.
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My bad.
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So obviously you've got that going. You're an incredible writer,
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sold millions of books. But I'd love for you to
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take a minute to share that aspect of how you've
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gotten to this point.
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You summed it up. That's about it. I created a
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literary genre, sold three million books. What else do you
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want me to talk about?
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The things that you've done as far as writing to
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where now I know you're investing or you've spent time
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as an investor as well as written an additional book
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called Mate as well as Book in a Box, the
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company that you've started. There's just a number of different
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things that you've done prior to this point and now
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what you're doing currently.
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Right now, my time is pretty much all spent on
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Book in a Box, my new company. You're kind of young.
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As you get older and you actually do a lot
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of things, it's weird. I feel like I've gotten the
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more I've done in my life and the more I've accomplished,
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the more humble I've gotten. And the less I care
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about talking about what I've done. It's weird. It's like
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when I had done very little, I was all about
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yelling about, uh, what little I had done, you know?
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But like now it's like, once you kind of reach
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a point where it's like, I'd rather just actually do
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things than talk about, uh, you know what I'm saying?
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I mean, I'm happy to talk about it, but what
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exactly do you want me to, to, cause you, you,
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you nailed all of it. Yeah. Three books, mate, book
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in a box. That's it. That's, that's one of them. Yeah.
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And so I'd love to dive into mate because I
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think a number of, of, of my listeners would be
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interested to discuss and the principles. And so I'm a
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married guy, a dad. So, and I still found huge
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value out of this book, but, But the book's called Mate,
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The Five Principles of Mating Success, and you wrote it
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with Jeffrey Miller. And so it's backed, you know, decisions
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are made with science instead of bias. And I found
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a lot of learnings through the book myself after reading
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it and rereading it again prior to us having this
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conversation tonight. And so I wanted to dive into, one,
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what made you want to write the book Mate?
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It was pretty interesting. it's one of those things where
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a hole is so big you don't realize it right
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and if you think about it like if you're a
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young guy who wants to learn about dating and sex
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and women and how to do it in a way
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that's effective and ethical and like something you can be
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proud of where do you go to get that information
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you know I mean the only people that are systematically
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out there teaching this stuff are pickup artists and they're
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the worst kind of manipulative slime balls. And actually most
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of the stuff they teach is not very effective. And
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so that, which is the worst scam of it. And
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so it's like, where do you go if you're a
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young guy? You know, like I had to learn all
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this stuff on my own. You probably had to learn
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it on your own. If you're lucky, you have men
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around you. Men or women who teach you this stuff,
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but very few men do. And so Jeff Miller and
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I just like, we kind of realized this in a
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conversation that, And we're like, well, no one's more qualified
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than he and I to write this book. I have
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the street cred and the experience. He has all the
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academic credentials and the intelligence. It's sort of it was
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it was one of those things that once we realized
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that this hole was there, it became an obvious, easy thing. Um,
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the book was not easy, but it became obvious what
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we had to do, you know, that there was this
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massive demand that no one was teaching men this and
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that we could. And so it's sort of like, if
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you have a chance to help the world, even in
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a small way and you don't, what are you doing?
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You know?
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So let's, let's talk, talk about some of, uh, my
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takeaways and, and, and I would love for to expand
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a little bit on what, what I read and some
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things that you could, Help explain a little bit better.
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So there's five principles to the five-step process. I'm not
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just going to reread the book because I would urge
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people to go read it, whether you're a single guy
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or you're married. But a couple of them start with
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get your head straight, develop attractive traits, display attractive proofs,
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go where the women are, and take action. How did
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you guys come up with this process?
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Because basically what we did is– it's funny. The book
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we thought we were going to write ended up changing
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because we have a podcast called The Mating Grounds. And
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we– over the course of that podcast, we thought this
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book was going to be much more advanced than it was,
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than it ended up being. Because what we realized through
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the course of the podcast is that most guys don't
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even have the basic fundamentals down. And so we wrote
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the book that teaches and explains the fundamentals. It's sort
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of like, I mean, you're an athlete. So you probably
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know very well. Like a lot of athletes want to
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work on the cool, fancy things like, you know, like
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every wide receiver wants to work on the crazy Odell
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Beckham one handed catch. Right. But but then then they're
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dropping like third down balls that are that are right
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in their face, you know, because they don't work on fundamentals.
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And for almost all sports, if you start with great
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fundamentals and you practice those over and over, you're going
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to at least be solid, if not very good. Maybe
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to get to great, you've got to work on a
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lot of fancy stuff, but you don't have to. Most
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of the great people are great because they have amazing fundamentals.
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And so that's really what this book is, is the
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fundamentals of understanding how to effectively deal with women in
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a romantic context. And most guys don't even understand how.
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The very beginning things like they don't understand simple basics like, OK,
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if you want to be effective with women, if you
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want women to like you, then you have to be
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attractive to women. Like you've got to understand what do
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women find attractive in men. First off, you have to
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understand that that women are only going to engage in
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any sort of romantic relationship. short or long term, with
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guys they're attracted to first, which is, believe it or not,
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kind of a shocking revelation for a lot of guys.
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You wouldn't believe how many guys come to me for
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advice about, okay, like, oh, I'm not doing good with girls, blah, blah, blah.
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And my first question will be, okay, what's attractive about you?
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Why would a girl want to get with you? And
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then they'll look at me like I'm speaking French and
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be like, uh, I don't know. And it's like, well,
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if you don't know why a woman's going to like you,
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how the hell is she going to know? And so
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like that's a basic fundamental thing. And the whole book
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really centers on attraction is understanding that if you want
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to be effective with women as a man, you need
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to be attractive to them. And then we explain exactly
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what women find attractive, why they find it attractive, how
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to cultivate those traits in yourself and then how to
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effectively use them. And that's really it, man. It's about
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helping guys get into the relationships they want to get into.
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And we don't take positions long-term, short-term. Oh, you shouldn't
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sleep with a bunch of women. Or, oh, you should
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bang every girl you meet. Honestly, we don't care. It's
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not our job to make moral judgments about that. It's
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our job to help guys understand, regardless of their goal,
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how to achieve it. As long as you achieve it
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in an ethical way. If you're honest with women, you
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deal with them in an appropriate way, which we actually
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guide guys through, what do actual practical ethics look like?
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It's the book that you wish you had when you
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were 16 or even 26 as a guy.
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I think even though for people like in my situation
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who are married, but you're looking to gain a better
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understanding because one of the things you guys do really
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well is help guys understand things from a female's perspective.
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You even tell a great story in the book about
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what it's like to be a female going to a bar.
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And I thought, is it really interesting analogy you guys
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use for a guy to put yourself in their shoes?
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Because we never really thought of it that way. We
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just go out and hang out with your friends and
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try to talk to girls. And for them, it's A.
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Bar is a very different place for a girl than
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it is for a guy. It's a scary place. And
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guys never think about that at all. Right, right. Because that's
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one of those key insights that guys never think about.
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But as soon as you tell them, it changes their
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entire life. So the insight you're talking about is basically
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that a woman's deepest unconscious fear is that a man
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is going to kill or rape her. He's going to
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hurt her physically. Men don't worry about women physically hurting them. Women,
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generally speaking, are not physical threats to men. A man's
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biggest fear is that a woman's going to humiliate him
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or like generally sexually humiliate him, but in some way
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embarrass him. And so if you think about it, dude,
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a bar is like the worst possible construction of a
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place for men and women to meet because you have
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a bunch of random guys that a woman doesn't know
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who have been drinking. So think about it. If a
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woman's fear is her physical safety, until she gets to
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know a guy and knows that he's a good dude,
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that's– every woman is thinking about that. So you put
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her around a bunch of random guys she doesn't know
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and then give them alcohol. And then what's she going
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to be? She's going to be afraid and she should be.
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It makes total sense. Now think about it from the
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other side too. So– From a guy's perspective, the worst
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thing that can happen is a woman embarrasses, humiliates him, right?
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So you're putting a dude around a bunch of women
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who are clustered together for safety, who don't want to
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go running off with different guys because they don't know
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who they are, and then expecting guys to go up
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and somehow... charm them or convince them to ignore their
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own primal fear. It makes no sense, dude. That's why
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bars are so awful for most people. Now, there are
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some people who excel. Like, if you're very gregarious, very outgoing,
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very verbally intelligent, you're good looking, blah, blah, you know,
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like physically very good looking. There's some guys who can
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do really well in bars, but most guys don't. They
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do really terribly, both because they're set up in a
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way that doesn't help guys or girls meet. And most
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guys don't understand this. They have no idea. They don't
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understand why a woman like is suspicious of them and
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doesn't want to talk to them because all they're doing
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is thinking in their head, I'm a good guy. I'm
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not going to hurt her. And that's probably 100 percent true.
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But she doesn't know that. And she can't know that
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until she gets to know you. And so we kind
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of walk through all of that with with guys and
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explain it to them. And then give them better places
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to meet women because bars are just about the worst place.
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What are some of the better places?
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So it's less a place and it's more of a way.
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So what we tell guys to do is that your
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dating life and your social life should not be different things.
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They should be the same thing. And you should meet
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women in places where you are doing things in groups
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with other people, some of whom you don't know. So
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for example, if you're volunteering at a dog shelter... You're
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going to meet a ton of women and you have
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a reason to be together, right? You're volunteering, a common
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cause and purpose. She can see you display traits that
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she might find attractive. You're going to know people in
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common with her that can vouch for you so you're safe.
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You're going to have a reason to talk to her
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and she's going to have a reason to talk to
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you that is independent of sort of alcohol or sexual undertones.
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Even though, of course, there will be sexual undertones, that's
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not the prime reason you're talking to each other. So
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it takes a very stressful situation and makes it very unstressful.
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And so like we basically say any sort of– we
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00:23:16.900 --> 00:23:18.960
just tell guys to do lots and lots and lots
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of social things but do them in groups with other people,
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especially women that you can meet. Volunteering is one example.
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There's about a million others in the book. And as
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soon as you start looking at meeting women not as
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a target– you don't look at women as targets to
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go find at a bar and then capture. But you
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look at them as people who have interests and you
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want to meet ones who have similar interests to you.
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Then it becomes a totally different thing. Now you're thinking, OK,
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so a girl who has interests X, Y, and Z
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just like me– I'm just going to go do activity X, Y,
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and Z, and then I'll meet all those girls. And
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in the context of doing those activities, we can talk
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to each other and relate to each other and see
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if there's any sort of mutual attraction, and then we
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can act on that very easily.
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Another thing you guys talk about. is improving your circle
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of friends and your social relationships for kind of some
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social proof. And you asked the question, who are your
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big five, which is, this is another big topic. And
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I talked with Joey Coleman about this when I had
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him previously on the podcast and some of the drastic
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measures him and his wife Barrett took to Improve their
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their big five so to speak of who are their
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00:24:30.279 --> 00:24:34.609
closest five friends talk a little bit more about Why
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that's so important in this case. I think it's even
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more important not just for in dating and for girls
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I think it's just more important in general for life.
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Yeah, so well actually it's that's the funny thing about
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00:24:44.210 --> 00:24:46.609
mate Is that it's really kind of a self-improvement book
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that's under the guise of sex and dating although every
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single piece of advice in there is about how to
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get better with women and The vast majority of it
470
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is actually how to become a more effective man because
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that's the ultimate answer about how to do better with
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women is you need to be an effective man because
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that's what women are attracted to are effective men. And
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so at the core is most biological level. That's there's
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no better way to get girls. And so anyway, so
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back to your question, there's a ton of data about
477
00:25:15.900 --> 00:25:20.880
this that basically this is a simplification, but it's true.
478
00:25:21.849 --> 00:25:25.349
you become the sum of the five people that you
479
00:25:25.450 --> 00:25:28.869
spend the most time with. So if you spend time
480
00:25:29.230 --> 00:25:32.069
with negative, shitty people, that's what you're going to be.
481
00:25:32.349 --> 00:25:35.650
If you spend time with positive people who are doing
482
00:25:35.710 --> 00:25:37.869
great things in their life, that's what you're going to do.
483
00:25:38.369 --> 00:25:44.500
In fact, the impact of your friends is so strong
484
00:25:44.519 --> 00:25:47.480
that There's a lot of data about this, a lot
485
00:25:47.519 --> 00:25:54.410
of studies. The happiness level of friends of your friends
486
00:25:54.650 --> 00:25:59.049
that you don't know, believe it or not, more accurately
487
00:25:59.109 --> 00:26:03.019
predicts your happiness level than does what you are earning
488
00:26:03.880 --> 00:26:08.019
or anything you do. Like think about how crazy that is.
489
00:26:08.480 --> 00:26:12.380
I can meet, I can meet you and judge you. Right.
490
00:26:12.519 --> 00:26:15.299
And then I can tell, like, do whatever, like measure
491
00:26:15.339 --> 00:26:20.200
your happiness level. And I can more accurately predict the
492
00:26:20.299 --> 00:26:23.119
happiness of someone. I don't know some mutual friend you
493
00:26:23.180 --> 00:26:25.180
have with your best friend that you don't know. I
494
00:26:25.730 --> 00:26:29.700
can tell you more about them. than almost any direct
495
00:26:29.779 --> 00:26:33.339
measurement of them. Think about how crazy that is. But
496
00:26:33.400 --> 00:26:38.029
that's how impactful your friendships are. Because most people don't
497
00:26:38.049 --> 00:26:41.869
understand human beings at all. The reality is humans are,
498
00:26:42.130 --> 00:26:47.000
we're not just social creatures. We actually don't exist. as
499
00:26:47.440 --> 00:26:50.779
as humans without other humans i i mean and i
500
00:26:50.819 --> 00:26:53.710
mean that in a very literal sense like unfortunately there
501
00:26:53.730 --> 00:26:57.549
have been quite a few examples of terrible like awful
502
00:26:57.650 --> 00:26:59.869
monsters that will like have a kid and then basically
503
00:26:59.930 --> 00:27:02.400
raise it in a closet and won't interact with it
504
00:27:02.420 --> 00:27:03.960
and we'll just put like food in there you know
505
00:27:03.980 --> 00:27:07.519
like like awful sort of things but what happens is
506
00:27:08.140 --> 00:27:12.410
those people that are raised in closets or the other
507
00:27:12.450 --> 00:27:14.589
people who kind of were raised by wolves. There's examples
508
00:27:14.630 --> 00:27:16.869
of these actually like the wild boar boy of Avignon.
509
00:27:16.890 --> 00:27:20.069
You can look up, um, they're not human. Like in
510
00:27:20.109 --> 00:27:22.029
the way we think of human, they don't have higher
511
00:27:22.109 --> 00:27:25.430
order capable of thinking capabilities. They don't have a lot of, uh,
512
00:27:25.529 --> 00:27:28.519
sort of basically they have undeveloped frontal lobes, like the
513
00:27:28.559 --> 00:27:31.180
things that make them human. They don't have. Uh, and,
514
00:27:31.359 --> 00:27:33.680
and so because they had no exposure to other humans.
515
00:27:34.200 --> 00:27:36.559
So you can almost think of it like a fax machine.
516
00:27:37.460 --> 00:27:41.279
A fax machine by itself is totally worthless. A fax
517
00:27:41.319 --> 00:27:45.279
machine plugged into a network is extremely valuable. Humans are
518
00:27:45.299 --> 00:27:50.329
the exact same way. If we don't have other relationships,
519
00:27:50.450 --> 00:27:55.690
we have nothing, and we are almost never anything more
520
00:27:55.750 --> 00:27:57.849
than the sum of the relationships we have.
521
00:27:59.490 --> 00:28:02.369
Yeah, it's fascinating, especially all the science behind it. That's
522
00:28:02.390 --> 00:28:04.230
why I love it. In Chapter 7, you talk about
523
00:28:04.769 --> 00:28:08.390
The intelligence trait, and there's a number of different ways
524
00:28:08.490 --> 00:28:13.079
to show your intelligence, social intelligence, emotional intelligence, verbal intelligence.
525
00:28:13.160 --> 00:28:16.759
And I love the example you used of Bill Clinton
526
00:28:16.799 --> 00:28:20.480
has a Carnival Cruise ship's worth of charisma to show
527
00:28:20.539 --> 00:28:23.319
his verbal intelligence. Talk to me more about verbal intelligence.
528
00:28:23.779 --> 00:28:26.720
Well, verbal intelligence is just how good you are at speaking.
529
00:28:27.319 --> 00:28:30.069
Like how like I have a lot of verbal intelligence.
530
00:28:30.130 --> 00:28:33.470
I'm a really good speaker. Right. Like, in fact, I
531
00:28:33.470 --> 00:28:36.049
was just thinking about talking about this with my pediatrician
532
00:28:36.069 --> 00:28:39.400
for my son. I was talking in full sentences and
533
00:28:39.500 --> 00:28:43.240
already like winning arguments with adults when I was 16
534
00:28:43.240 --> 00:28:46.509
months old. My son is now 16 months old and
535
00:28:46.549 --> 00:28:50.890
he barely talks. He's not a verbally intelligent. He doesn't
536
00:28:50.950 --> 00:28:53.150
have high levels of verbal intelligence like I did. It's
537
00:28:53.190 --> 00:28:55.730
funny though. Like I, like he'll, I'll teach him words
538
00:28:55.930 --> 00:28:58.490
like bye-bye and he'll learn bye-bye and he'll say it
539
00:28:58.509 --> 00:29:00.109
a couple of times and then he'll just be like, eh,
540
00:29:00.269 --> 00:29:01.950
I'm bored with it. I don't care. Like he doesn't,
541
00:29:02.289 --> 00:29:05.309
he doesn't like verbal communication is just either not a
542
00:29:05.390 --> 00:29:06.950
high in his priority list or just not high in
543
00:29:06.970 --> 00:29:09.410
his trait list. But he's, you can, I can already
544
00:29:09.450 --> 00:29:13.130
tell he's going to have extremely high mechanical intelligence and,
545
00:29:13.890 --> 00:29:15.869
He's probably going to be an engineer or something like
546
00:29:15.910 --> 00:29:18.910
that because all he wants to do, even at 16
547
00:29:18.910 --> 00:29:21.839
months old, is get into every cabinet, pull everything out,
548
00:29:22.980 --> 00:29:27.279
manipulate all kinds of physical things so that his kinesthetic
549
00:29:27.339 --> 00:29:32.990
intelligence and mechanical intelligence is going to be very high.
550
00:29:33.529 --> 00:29:36.609
In Western culture, especially in America, we think of intelligence
551
00:29:36.670 --> 00:29:40.279
as book smarts, which is total bullshit because we all
552
00:29:40.319 --> 00:29:43.759
know the super brilliant egghead professor who can't get his
553
00:29:43.819 --> 00:29:47.539
piss in the toilet and is alone at 50. You know,
554
00:29:47.599 --> 00:29:50.539
how smart is that guy? He's failed at life, even
555
00:29:50.579 --> 00:29:54.500
though he's incredibly book smart. Right. That's just one sort
556
00:29:54.519 --> 00:29:59.509
of intelligence. The most effective people generally put together several
557
00:29:59.569 --> 00:30:02.109
different types of intelligence. Like Bill Clinton's a great example.
558
00:30:02.490 --> 00:30:08.089
He's extremely book smart, extremely intellectually intelligent, but also extremely
559
00:30:08.170 --> 00:30:12.410
socially intelligent and verbally intelligent. Combine those three things together
560
00:30:12.490 --> 00:30:15.210
and you get a world leader. Mm hmm.
561
00:30:16.359 --> 00:30:19.099
Yeah, you brought up your son, and I think so.
562
00:30:19.279 --> 00:30:22.759
For some of the people listening, Tucker, they might be
563
00:30:22.839 --> 00:30:25.450
surprised if they haven't read about you recently to hear
564
00:30:25.609 --> 00:30:28.390
about where you currently are, maybe if they read some
565
00:30:28.410 --> 00:30:31.420
of your earlier books. to hear now that you're married
566
00:30:31.480 --> 00:30:35.480
with a child. Obviously, I've listened to you on other
567
00:30:35.519 --> 00:30:38.119
podcasts and read about you, and I know you're really
568
00:30:38.200 --> 00:30:40.720
focused on being a great spouse and a great dad,
569
00:30:40.759 --> 00:30:44.369
which is awesome. But people who are fans of yours
570
00:30:44.400 --> 00:30:47.029
from maybe a few years ago might be like, whoa, wait,
571
00:30:47.109 --> 00:30:49.809
this is Tucker Max, the same guy that I've read about?
572
00:30:49.829 --> 00:30:54.849
How have you progressed? Has there been specific events in
573
00:30:54.869 --> 00:30:57.670
your life that's helped you progress from maybe– some of
574
00:30:58.069 --> 00:30:59.990
the decisions you made earlier in your life to how
575
00:31:00.029 --> 00:31:02.859
you now are as a husband and a dad.
576
00:31:04.039 --> 00:31:06.460
I mean, that's a super, super, it's not a bad
577
00:31:06.500 --> 00:31:08.799
question at all. It's just super broad. Yeah. So like
578
00:31:08.960 --> 00:31:11.420
what exact, like what aspect of that? I mean, there's
579
00:31:11.460 --> 00:31:13.200
a million ways to sort of go about that.
580
00:31:13.240 --> 00:31:15.359
I'm thinking about like inflection points in your life or
581
00:31:15.420 --> 00:31:19.000
specific moments to where maybe if you had something that
582
00:31:19.140 --> 00:31:24.190
stopped you and said, wow, like, I feel like I'm
583
00:31:24.230 --> 00:31:27.150
ready to grow past the earlier stage of where you
584
00:31:27.170 --> 00:31:30.109
were writing about and going out and getting with a
585
00:31:30.150 --> 00:31:32.180
bunch of women and drinking and all that to now
586
00:31:32.220 --> 00:31:34.640
to the stage of being married and having a child.
587
00:31:35.950 --> 00:31:40.230
To me, dude, I don't see any conflict or contradiction
588
00:31:40.269 --> 00:31:44.940
between the things at all. You just can't do them
589
00:31:44.960 --> 00:31:48.299
both at the same time. If you want to go
590
00:31:48.359 --> 00:31:50.319
party and hook up with a bunch of girls and
591
00:31:50.380 --> 00:31:52.900
have fun, that's fantastic. Do that. If you want to
592
00:31:52.940 --> 00:31:55.519
be a family man and have a kid, you can
593
00:31:55.539 --> 00:31:57.819
do that as well. You just can't do those two
594
00:31:57.859 --> 00:32:01.740
things together. And the best order, I think, to put
595
00:32:01.789 --> 00:32:04.190
them in is the one I did. like get your
596
00:32:04.230 --> 00:32:06.289
partying and hooking up and all that stuff done early
597
00:32:06.970 --> 00:32:08.930
and then get it out of your system or get
598
00:32:08.970 --> 00:32:10.700
through as much of it as you need to. And then,
599
00:32:11.039 --> 00:32:14.660
then you can move on to sort of family and husband.
600
00:32:14.819 --> 00:32:20.559
It's especially for guys. It's much easier that way. But there's,
601
00:32:20.700 --> 00:32:23.670
there's a narrative in our culture that, that, that, like
602
00:32:23.890 --> 00:32:27.490
one is a good and one is bad or it's nonsense.
603
00:32:27.710 --> 00:32:30.650
It's just total nonsense. Uh, I think that's, there's a
604
00:32:30.690 --> 00:32:33.750
lot of reasons for that, whatever. But if you're a
605
00:32:33.769 --> 00:32:36.539
man and you want to do both, it's fine. Just
606
00:32:36.670 --> 00:32:39.920
don't do them at the same time and you'll be fine. Seriously.
607
00:32:39.960 --> 00:32:42.380
It was never, there was never a doubt in my mind, uh,
608
00:32:43.779 --> 00:32:45.420
the 15 years ago that I was going to have
609
00:32:45.460 --> 00:32:47.799
a great wife and kids and all that stuff. I
610
00:32:47.839 --> 00:32:49.240
was just going to have them when I was ready.
611
00:32:49.519 --> 00:32:52.400
And when I got ready, then I did it. I
612
00:32:52.420 --> 00:32:54.420
don't know what else to say.
613
00:32:54.539 --> 00:32:57.960
I got you. You transitioned to Book in a Box,
614
00:32:57.980 --> 00:33:01.589
the company that you're spending the majority of your time on.
615
00:33:02.410 --> 00:33:06.349
All my time. Family time is its own time, but
616
00:33:06.390 --> 00:33:08.430
I'm talking about work. It's all my work time now.
617
00:33:08.690 --> 00:33:10.210
Talk to me about Book in a Box. Why did
618
00:33:10.250 --> 00:33:12.990
you start it and why are you so passionate about it?
619
00:33:13.430 --> 00:33:16.099
So the company, basically, we figured out a way to
620
00:33:16.140 --> 00:33:19.440
turn writing and publishing into a service. So if you want,
621
00:33:19.460 --> 00:33:21.700
if you have wisdom and knowledge in your head and
622
00:33:21.720 --> 00:33:23.900
you want to turn it into a book. You can
623
00:33:24.039 --> 00:33:27.549
sit down at a computer for a thousand hours over
624
00:33:27.569 --> 00:33:29.710
the course of a year and type it all out
625
00:33:30.269 --> 00:33:32.549
and then figure out a way to get it published.
626
00:33:32.809 --> 00:33:34.950
Or you can come to us and you can spend
627
00:33:34.990 --> 00:33:38.349
about 15 hours on the phone over about four months
628
00:33:38.509 --> 00:33:41.109
and never touch a keyboard. And we do everything. And
629
00:33:41.170 --> 00:33:44.799
it's your ideas and your words and your voice in
630
00:33:44.839 --> 00:33:48.009
the book. And we publish it and everything. Yeah. I mean,
631
00:33:48.029 --> 00:33:50.230
like it was, dude, it was one of those things
632
00:33:50.269 --> 00:33:52.910
that came, it kind of fell into my lap. A
633
00:33:52.950 --> 00:33:56.130
friend of mine, this woman I know wanted to write
634
00:33:56.150 --> 00:33:58.480
a book. She didn't want to do it in the
635
00:33:58.519 --> 00:34:01.299
normal process. She asked me to help her solve her
636
00:34:01.319 --> 00:34:04.559
problem and I didn't think it would work and it did.
637
00:34:04.579 --> 00:34:08.309
And And even before we had this as a company,
638
00:34:08.349 --> 00:34:11.210
people were asking us, Hey, can you do that for me?
639
00:34:11.230 --> 00:34:12.929
Can you do that for me? And so it was
640
00:34:12.969 --> 00:34:15.119
like one of those things where when you're selling a
641
00:34:15.179 --> 00:34:19.130
product before you're even advertising it or trying to sell it,
642
00:34:19.159 --> 00:34:21.920
then you have product, then you've got a company. That's
643
00:34:22.000 --> 00:34:25.860
the definition of product market fit. And so, um, it
644
00:34:25.880 --> 00:34:27.739
was like one of those things where we kind of start,
645
00:34:27.800 --> 00:34:30.619
Zach and I started, uh, doing it. And after about
646
00:34:30.659 --> 00:34:32.760
three months, I realized what we had on our hands
647
00:34:32.820 --> 00:34:35.489
and I realized it was way bigger than a, anything
648
00:34:35.550 --> 00:34:38.579
I thought. And so this is, I mean, this is
649
00:34:38.619 --> 00:34:40.679
probably for the next decade or more going to be,
650
00:34:40.699 --> 00:34:43.869
if we do it right, it may end up being
651
00:34:43.889 --> 00:34:44.730
the greatest thing I ever do.
652
00:34:46.929 --> 00:34:49.070
So what was the process like or what is the
653
00:34:49.110 --> 00:34:51.550
current process for people who, because I think there's a
654
00:34:51.550 --> 00:34:53.099
lot of people listening who do want to write a
655
00:34:53.119 --> 00:34:55.280
book and you get the book out of their heads
656
00:34:55.340 --> 00:34:58.500
and not into an actual book form. So what is
657
00:34:58.539 --> 00:35:00.340
it like if someone's like, oh, how would I do that?
658
00:35:00.380 --> 00:35:01.440
That sounds kind of cool.
659
00:35:01.480 --> 00:35:06.750
The simplified explanation of our process is there's really two,
660
00:35:07.110 --> 00:35:10.289
three big attributes to it that make it different. The
661
00:35:10.329 --> 00:35:13.469
first thing is the way we create outline. And we
662
00:35:13.510 --> 00:35:17.280
basically start Most people will tell you to start with
663
00:35:17.380 --> 00:35:19.789
what your book is going to be about. That's actually
664
00:35:19.809 --> 00:35:21.650
the last thing you do in an outline. The way
665
00:35:21.670 --> 00:35:23.429
we do it is we start with what result you're
666
00:35:23.469 --> 00:35:26.710
looking for in a book because everyone is like– no
667
00:35:26.769 --> 00:35:28.730
one wants a book. They want what they think a
668
00:35:28.789 --> 00:35:31.500
book is going to get them. No one is like, oh, yeah,
669
00:35:31.519 --> 00:35:32.880
I'm going to write this book and then I'm going
670
00:35:32.900 --> 00:35:34.800
to put it in my drawer and never look at
671
00:35:34.840 --> 00:35:38.340
it again. Um, no, uh, that's not what anyone wants
672
00:35:38.519 --> 00:35:40.380
because if you just wanted a book, that's what you
673
00:35:40.420 --> 00:35:43.039
would do. Right. So, uh, so what, what results are
674
00:35:43.059 --> 00:35:45.900
you looking for? Then the next question is what audience
675
00:35:45.940 --> 00:35:48.280
do you need to reach to get that result? And
676
00:35:48.300 --> 00:35:51.360
then to understand, uh, the next question then is what
677
00:35:51.820 --> 00:35:55.050
do you know that's valuable to that audience? Then that
678
00:35:55.119 --> 00:35:57.449
is the book you need to write. And then, uh,
679
00:35:57.849 --> 00:35:59.469
so we kind of have a process where we work
680
00:35:59.489 --> 00:36:02.070
through that, that kind of outlines the book. And then
681
00:36:02.230 --> 00:36:03.929
that's that's sort of in our book. We wrote a
682
00:36:03.929 --> 00:36:05.690
book called The Book in a Box Method that explains
683
00:36:05.710 --> 00:36:07.869
the entire process. It's the exact thing that we do
684
00:36:07.909 --> 00:36:11.289
with our clients. And so our outline process, once you're
685
00:36:11.309 --> 00:36:13.170
done with the outline process, then instead of sitting down
686
00:36:13.210 --> 00:36:15.130
to type it all out, what we do is we
687
00:36:15.250 --> 00:36:17.989
interview you off of the outline and we get all
688
00:36:18.010 --> 00:36:20.659
of the knowledge and wisdom out of your head in
689
00:36:20.739 --> 00:36:24.780
a verbal way. which has a lot of benefits. Namely,
690
00:36:24.820 --> 00:36:28.179
it saves an immense amount of time. It makes it
691
00:36:28.280 --> 00:36:31.650
about 90% faster. Usually, you get better content out of
692
00:36:31.690 --> 00:36:35.730
people because they're not trying to translate it from thoughts
693
00:36:35.869 --> 00:36:40.869
into sentences. They're just talking and people... Pretty much everybody
694
00:36:40.909 --> 00:36:42.730
is a better talker than a better writer. There are
695
00:36:42.750 --> 00:36:47.260
a few exceptions, and they're professional writers. Those people become
696
00:36:47.320 --> 00:36:50.239
professional writers. There's very few of them. The other sort
697
00:36:50.260 --> 00:36:52.440
of big benefit is that you're able to sort of
698
00:36:52.940 --> 00:36:55.679
get to core ideas a lot better, I think, most
699
00:36:55.719 --> 00:36:58.949
people are through talking. So we record the entire conversation.
700
00:36:58.969 --> 00:37:01.949
It takes hours. eight to 10 hours over a few interviews,
701
00:37:02.630 --> 00:37:06.070
get it transcribed. And then what our editors do is
702
00:37:06.130 --> 00:37:09.789
they translate that transcription into book prose. Because if you've
703
00:37:09.889 --> 00:37:14.300
ever seen a transcription of a podcast, it's really hard
704
00:37:14.340 --> 00:37:17.360
to read. Exactly. So it's not just transcription. You have
705
00:37:17.400 --> 00:37:19.940
to translate that into the book. But because it's an
706
00:37:20.000 --> 00:37:24.179
outline format, it's really easy to organize it. And then
707
00:37:24.219 --> 00:37:26.639
it's just a matter of making the sentences and paragraphs flow,
708
00:37:26.900 --> 00:37:30.780
which is really easy for, we have, you know, professional
709
00:37:30.820 --> 00:37:34.000
freelance editors who do that. But it's actually for most people,
710
00:37:34.039 --> 00:37:37.280
that's not so hard to do. It's much easier for
711
00:37:37.320 --> 00:37:40.000
them to sort of edit a transcript than it is
712
00:37:40.159 --> 00:37:43.360
to try and write from scratch. And then the other
713
00:37:43.500 --> 00:37:45.260
big sort of part of the process that I think
714
00:37:45.280 --> 00:37:48.590
is really innovative is that is the editing phase. So
715
00:37:48.670 --> 00:37:51.250
once you're finished with the manuscript, what we do is
716
00:37:51.269 --> 00:37:54.010
we get our authors on the phone with us and
717
00:37:54.269 --> 00:37:56.489
they sit in front of the manuscript and they read
718
00:37:56.550 --> 00:37:59.489
it page for page, word for word. They read it
719
00:37:59.570 --> 00:38:02.690
out loud to the editor because when you read your
720
00:38:02.730 --> 00:38:05.590
writing out loud, it's really easy to see all the
721
00:38:05.639 --> 00:38:09.320
mistakes and correct them. If you're trying to read it
722
00:38:09.400 --> 00:38:12.179
to yourself and correct them, unless you are professional, it's
723
00:38:12.340 --> 00:38:16.750
really hard. And so our authors, the people who work
724
00:38:16.789 --> 00:38:20.460
with us, don't actually even ever touch a keyboard. All
725
00:38:20.480 --> 00:38:22.150
they do is talk and all they do is read
726
00:38:22.550 --> 00:38:25.420
and think. But if you're doing this yourself, you need
727
00:38:25.440 --> 00:38:28.039
to touch a keyboard some. But still, most of the
728
00:38:28.059 --> 00:38:32.320
process is not sitting at a computer typing. It's talking
729
00:38:32.840 --> 00:38:34.659
because that's the way human brains are designed to work.
730
00:38:34.780 --> 00:38:37.599
The whole process is described. It's on Amazon, the book.
731
00:38:37.619 --> 00:38:40.340
It's called The Book in a Box Method. It's like $ 2,
732
00:38:40.260 --> 00:38:43.519
the book is, or something crazy like that. So if
733
00:38:43.719 --> 00:38:46.539
any of your people want to do it, it's on Amazon.
734
00:38:46.880 --> 00:38:48.099
Or I'll tell you, you can get the book for
735
00:38:48.139 --> 00:38:50.949
free actually. If you go to bookinabox.com, if you join
736
00:38:50.969 --> 00:38:53.530
our email list, I'm pretty sure the opt-in is like
737
00:38:53.570 --> 00:38:55.250
you get a copy of the book for free.
738
00:38:55.869 --> 00:38:58.349
Yeah, I got it when I was out at Jason
739
00:38:58.369 --> 00:39:01.409
Gaynor and Joey's event in Vegas when you spoke. And
740
00:39:01.469 --> 00:39:03.360
so I read it on the flight home. So it's
741
00:39:03.440 --> 00:39:08.230
really good and helpful. that's certainly something I'm interested in pursuing.
742
00:39:09.050 --> 00:39:13.880
Now that you're leading this business, I'm curious about from
743
00:39:13.920 --> 00:39:16.840
the leadership part of leading a business with other people
744
00:39:16.860 --> 00:39:19.880
that you're working with, what are some of the main
745
00:39:20.260 --> 00:39:23.489
characteristics in other people and business partners that you look
746
00:39:23.550 --> 00:39:25.639
for when you're saying you're going to hire somebody to
747
00:39:25.639 --> 00:39:27.750
work with you? I know you have different positions that
748
00:39:27.750 --> 00:39:30.199
you hire hire for. I saw you recently were hiring
749
00:39:30.239 --> 00:39:33.179
for salespeople and you hire for different positions, but what
750
00:39:33.219 --> 00:39:35.539
are you looking for in business partners?
751
00:39:36.039 --> 00:39:39.760
Yeah. So even business partners are people we hire. Uh,
752
00:39:39.780 --> 00:39:41.860
it's not, it's not the same thing. Like my exact,
753
00:39:42.199 --> 00:39:44.699
my co-founder of my company. Yeah. I'm not sure I
754
00:39:44.719 --> 00:39:47.639
would hire him, but he's an amazing co-founder. Explain that. Oh, why?
755
00:39:49.309 --> 00:39:54.170
Because a co-founder– if you're a true entrepreneur, I don't
756
00:39:54.190 --> 00:39:58.030
mean fucking like online entrepreneurs, these clowns who talk about– no, no, no.
757
00:39:58.030 --> 00:40:00.219
I'm talking about a real– if you're building a real
758
00:40:00.260 --> 00:40:04.659
business that actually makes real money with real employees that
759
00:40:04.699 --> 00:40:07.900
you have to actually deal with and manage, being an
760
00:40:07.940 --> 00:40:10.340
entrepreneur is about– it's kind of like what I talked
761
00:40:10.360 --> 00:40:13.480
about earlier. You've got to think in a very specific
762
00:40:13.519 --> 00:40:16.159
way that's very different from everybody else and it's very difficult.
763
00:40:16.539 --> 00:40:19.590
And there's a lot– there's a large emotional content. context
764
00:40:19.610 --> 00:40:21.570
to it too. You've got to be able to, to
765
00:40:21.630 --> 00:40:23.969
balance a lot of paradoxical ideas and you've got to
766
00:40:23.989 --> 00:40:25.409
deal with a lot of chaos and you've got to
767
00:40:25.809 --> 00:40:29.670
make decisions. And it's, it's very, very difficult and it
768
00:40:29.730 --> 00:40:33.789
requires a very different skill set. And people who are
769
00:40:33.869 --> 00:40:38.650
true entrepreneurs are generally not happy working for anybody else.
770
00:40:39.070 --> 00:40:42.610
Not always, not always, but often. and and zach is
771
00:40:42.659 --> 00:40:44.460
the type where he's never going to be happy working
772
00:40:44.480 --> 00:40:46.300
for somebody else he's got to have his own thing
773
00:40:46.760 --> 00:40:48.800
but when he has his own thing it's something he
774
00:40:48.840 --> 00:40:52.280
believes in and he's his tasks and and sort of
775
00:40:52.320 --> 00:40:55.579
day-to-day sort of work is is focused in sort of
776
00:40:55.960 --> 00:40:59.360
creative areas like he's going from uh zero to one
777
00:40:59.440 --> 00:41:03.500
so to speak he excels he's amazing uh he's like
778
00:41:03.539 --> 00:41:06.119
i couldn't have had i couldn't have gotten a better
779
00:41:06.559 --> 00:41:09.420
co-founder if i designed one from the ground up but
780
00:41:09.480 --> 00:41:12.550
like uh But I wouldn't hire him as an employee
781
00:41:12.570 --> 00:41:14.670
because I think he would he just not he wouldn't.
782
00:41:15.340 --> 00:41:17.639
It would waste so much of his talent and it
783
00:41:17.679 --> 00:41:21.949
would– he needs to feel like he's in charge and
784
00:41:21.969 --> 00:41:23.840
in control of his own destiny. And he is because
785
00:41:23.860 --> 00:41:27.989
he started the company with me. But– so that's the
786
00:41:28.210 --> 00:41:30.530
one sort of difference between an entrepreneur and sort of
787
00:41:30.570 --> 00:41:33.849
an employee. But that being said, Zach and I, we
788
00:41:33.889 --> 00:41:37.690
do two big things we look for. One is sort
789
00:41:37.710 --> 00:41:40.130
of character. A lot of people use that word in
790
00:41:40.170 --> 00:41:44.389
different ways. But basically, is this an awesome person? And
791
00:41:44.409 --> 00:41:47.389
we don't mean like high character and, of course, integrity,
792
00:41:47.409 --> 00:41:50.380
all those things. But, I mean, is this person just awesome?
793
00:41:50.440 --> 00:41:51.880
Do we want to hang out with them and spend
794
00:41:51.920 --> 00:41:55.960
time with them? Are they a good person? People think
795
00:41:56.000 --> 00:41:59.679
culture and stuff is secondary in a business. Those people
796
00:41:59.760 --> 00:42:03.760
don't run successful businesses, not anymore. The days where you
797
00:42:03.780 --> 00:42:07.550
could look at employees as just sort of employees and
798
00:42:07.630 --> 00:42:10.969
not as part of a tribe or whatever– Those days
799
00:42:11.030 --> 00:42:13.429
are gone. And, you know, maybe some of the old
800
00:42:13.449 --> 00:42:15.809
legacy businesses can still operate that way sort of, but
801
00:42:16.030 --> 00:42:18.679
the clock is ticking on them. So we look at
802
00:42:18.780 --> 00:42:22.219
not hiring friends necessarily, but hiring people that we just,
803
00:42:22.659 --> 00:42:24.260
we're going to be spending a lot of time dealing
804
00:42:24.300 --> 00:42:26.219
with this person. And the question is, do we want to?
805
00:42:26.800 --> 00:42:28.739
As a human, do we want to be around this
806
00:42:28.780 --> 00:42:32.940
person and spend time with them and whatever? And that's
807
00:42:32.980 --> 00:42:35.789
very much what I would summarize as character. And the
808
00:42:35.809 --> 00:42:37.389
other big thing that Zach and I do that I
809
00:42:37.389 --> 00:42:41.199
think most people not most, but most or a huge
810
00:42:41.260 --> 00:42:44.320
number of business owners don't do, or at least managers
811
00:42:44.340 --> 00:42:47.000
don't do is we actively look for people who are
812
00:42:47.239 --> 00:42:50.519
smarter and better than we are at, at least at
813
00:42:50.559 --> 00:42:52.440
the very least of the job we're hiring them for.
814
00:42:53.260 --> 00:42:56.710
So like, um, okay. So for, I'm a, like you
815
00:42:56.730 --> 00:42:59.090
said at the beginning, I'm a three time, number one,
816
00:42:59.110 --> 00:43:01.489
New York Times bestselling author. I've sold millions of books and,
817
00:43:02.219 --> 00:43:04.340
Right now, there are at least three people in my
818
00:43:04.380 --> 00:43:08.019
company who are, I think, without a doubt, better writers
819
00:43:08.079 --> 00:43:12.170
than I am and more skilled with story and narrative
820
00:43:12.769 --> 00:43:19.530
and structure. And like whatever measure of creative intellectual writing
821
00:43:19.590 --> 00:43:24.440
ability there is, they are better than me. And it's awesome.
822
00:43:24.900 --> 00:43:45.000
I fucking love it, man. Of course, yeah. People who
823
00:43:45.059 --> 00:43:48.500
are both great people and great at their job, then
824
00:43:48.800 --> 00:43:51.739
you're going to do really well. And that's what we
825
00:43:51.780 --> 00:43:52.179
try and do.
826
00:43:52.480 --> 00:43:54.679
Well, it shows security in the leader as well. Some
827
00:43:54.719 --> 00:43:57.510
insecure leaders are a little bit scared to hire people
828
00:43:57.550 --> 00:43:59.230
who are smarter than them. And that's when you see
829
00:43:59.289 --> 00:44:00.050
businesses fail.
830
00:44:00.590 --> 00:44:03.190
Exactly. I mean, that's the definition of an insecure leader.
831
00:44:03.389 --> 00:44:04.849
Someone afraid to hire over them.
832
00:44:04.949 --> 00:44:07.909
We've all seen those types. And then we've seen the
833
00:44:07.949 --> 00:44:11.760
inverse of the ones who... actively seek out people who
834
00:44:11.860 --> 00:44:12.820
are smarter than them.
835
00:44:12.980 --> 00:44:14.300
If you're not better than me at the job I'm
836
00:44:14.320 --> 00:44:16.340
hiring you for the, what the fuck am I hiring? Yeah. Yeah.
837
00:44:16.579 --> 00:44:18.599
You know, if you can't sell better than me, then
838
00:44:18.639 --> 00:44:21.469
you shouldn't be in sales in my company. Right. Exactly.
839
00:44:21.550 --> 00:44:23.230
How, how was it like from a year over year
840
00:44:23.289 --> 00:44:25.309
growth perspective without, you don't have to dive into the
841
00:44:25.329 --> 00:44:26.980
exact revenues. How's the company doing?
842
00:44:27.610 --> 00:44:30.530
I'll tell you, I'm no problem with it. So our
843
00:44:30.590 --> 00:44:33.610
first year, uh, we're about 18, a little bit, uh,
844
00:44:33.969 --> 00:44:36.940
under 18 months old. We started in August of 2014.
845
00:44:36.940 --> 00:44:41.780
We've done about 2.5 million since then, maybe about 2
846
00:44:41.780 --> 00:44:48.429
million in this calendar year. You know, we're growing about consistently.
847
00:44:48.469 --> 00:44:51.829
I think our average annual or average growth rate in
848
00:44:51.869 --> 00:44:54.849
terms of quarter over quarter is about 40 ish percent.
849
00:44:56.219 --> 00:44:58.949
Last quarter was 65. That was pretty good. We don't
850
00:44:58.989 --> 00:45:02.070
really– we're not more than– our year-over-year growth rate is
851
00:45:02.090 --> 00:45:06.190
like one quarter to one quarter. So it's just– it's
852
00:45:06.210 --> 00:45:08.929
too early for those growth rates to matter. But I
853
00:45:08.949 --> 00:45:11.059
think realistically we should be able to get to somewhere
854
00:45:11.119 --> 00:45:13.460
between 6 and 12 million next year and then 20
855
00:45:13.460 --> 00:45:14.260
to 30 the year after.
856
00:45:15.519 --> 00:45:17.440
What's long-term for the business? Do you want to stay
857
00:45:17.480 --> 00:45:20.219
in it? Do you want to eject? What's to sell?
858
00:45:20.659 --> 00:45:26.570
I think we want to grow horizontally and vertically. Vertically means,
859
00:45:26.829 --> 00:45:29.469
right now we charge $ 18, 000 for our basic package, which
860
00:45:29.550 --> 00:45:32.309
is not cheap. It's not really expensive, actually, considering what
861
00:45:32.329 --> 00:45:37.349
we do, but it's also not cheap. I think we
862
00:45:37.590 --> 00:45:41.300
can turn our process into software as a service and
863
00:45:41.340 --> 00:45:44.199
make it much cheaper for a lot of people and
864
00:45:44.340 --> 00:45:46.989
open it up to a lot of people that otherwise
865
00:45:47.050 --> 00:45:50.170
it would not be accessible to. Like Zach and I
866
00:45:50.230 --> 00:45:54.329
see our company, like our sort of mission is unlocking
867
00:45:54.369 --> 00:45:57.940
the world's wisdom and not necessarily through books. Books are
868
00:45:57.980 --> 00:45:59.900
just one way to do it. And so I think
869
00:45:59.940 --> 00:46:02.400
the other way we're going to grow, not just turning
870
00:46:02.440 --> 00:46:04.679
our process into software as a service, but I think
871
00:46:04.719 --> 00:46:09.440
we're also going to, um, going to sort of extend
872
00:46:09.719 --> 00:46:15.619
it to other areas like speeches or pitch decks or
873
00:46:15.840 --> 00:46:19.619
movie scripts or video courses. I mean basically any sort
874
00:46:19.659 --> 00:46:23.489
of medium that you can transmit knowledge from one head
875
00:46:23.550 --> 00:46:27.349
to another can be turned into a process. I mean
876
00:46:27.369 --> 00:46:33.179
the way to sort of create those– to go from
877
00:46:33.239 --> 00:46:36.699
idea in your head to, to sort of finished product
878
00:46:36.719 --> 00:46:39.699
that other people can sort of share. So, um, I
879
00:46:39.719 --> 00:46:42.170
think that's the longer, larger, longer term vision for the
880
00:46:42.210 --> 00:46:45.610
company is to spread horizontally and vertically. And then we'd
881
00:46:45.630 --> 00:46:48.650
be the company that if we do this right, we're
882
00:46:48.690 --> 00:46:52.269
the pro we're the company, the service process company that
883
00:46:52.409 --> 00:46:56.130
everyone uses to create, to turn their ideas into finished products,
884
00:46:56.190 --> 00:47:01.650
whether they're, uh, books or, um, speeches or anything. Yeah.
885
00:47:02.639 --> 00:47:06.389
If you were coming across like a 24-year-old guy who
886
00:47:06.510 --> 00:47:08.210
is saying, hey, Tucker, what are some of the best
887
00:47:08.269 --> 00:47:13.469
books for me to read to increase my overall knowledge, intelligence?
888
00:47:13.829 --> 00:47:14.989
What books would you give him?
889
00:47:16.289 --> 00:47:19.030
Man, it really depends on the guy. Like it's really
890
00:47:19.050 --> 00:47:22.030
hard for me to give generic explanations because it depends.
891
00:47:22.519 --> 00:47:23.920
A wall full of books in your house.
892
00:47:23.940 --> 00:47:29.650
Right. What are some– It just depends. I don't know.
893
00:47:29.750 --> 00:47:37.000
Everyone comes from different perspectives and different places. There's almost
894
00:47:37.099 --> 00:47:40.980
not a generic book, I would say, read this to
895
00:47:41.000 --> 00:47:44.559
get smarter. Or to be a better person.
896
00:47:44.579 --> 00:47:46.360
Like a give and take from Adam Grant or something
897
00:47:46.380 --> 00:47:46.739
like that.
898
00:47:47.889 --> 00:47:50.309
I mean, listen. I know Adam. I love Adam. It's
899
00:47:50.349 --> 00:47:53.349
a great book. But for most people, the fucking book
900
00:47:53.409 --> 00:47:58.239
is just not... It's like giving someone instructions about how
901
00:47:58.559 --> 00:48:01.320
to repair a TV set when all they want is
902
00:48:01.340 --> 00:48:05.829
to change the channel or something. No, seriously, most business
903
00:48:05.889 --> 00:48:10.230
books are just so complex and complicated and they're dealing
904
00:48:10.250 --> 00:48:12.510
with issues that are on the edges. It's like what
905
00:48:12.530 --> 00:48:14.369
we talked about before. It's like are you going to
906
00:48:14.469 --> 00:48:15.809
focus on the edge or are you going to focus
907
00:48:15.849 --> 00:48:18.889
on fundamentals? There's very few people who need to focus
908
00:48:18.929 --> 00:48:21.849
on edge cases. Most people need to focus on fundamentals.
909
00:48:22.429 --> 00:48:24.989
But it just kind of depends, man. Like, um, give
910
00:48:25.010 --> 00:48:27.980
me a specific person or like, and you can be
911
00:48:28.000 --> 00:48:30.539
a generic person, but like a specific situation where they
912
00:48:30.579 --> 00:48:32.719
are in their life, what they need to like, what
913
00:48:32.739 --> 00:48:34.699
are they looking, what basic things are they looking to
914
00:48:34.739 --> 00:48:37.619
learn about, et cetera.
915
00:48:37.840 --> 00:48:40.519
A 25 year old graduated with a degree in business
916
00:48:40.559 --> 00:48:45.260
from a top 25 school works at a big consulting firm,
917
00:48:45.280 --> 00:48:47.980
but he doesn't like it. And he wants to, he
918
00:48:48.019 --> 00:48:49.679
doesn't know what he wants to do, but he wants
919
00:48:49.719 --> 00:48:50.550
to do something else.
920
00:48:51.170 --> 00:48:54.030
Okay. The first thing, because the way you described this person,
921
00:48:54.050 --> 00:48:55.650
the first thing I would actually tell them to read
922
00:48:55.690 --> 00:48:58.900
is a book called status anxiety by Elaine de Botton. Okay. Um,
923
00:48:59.460 --> 00:49:03.179
one of the things that most people don't understand, they
924
00:49:03.239 --> 00:49:05.980
don't understand why they do what they do. Status anxiety
925
00:49:06.059 --> 00:49:09.920
explains in a deep way what drives human beings to
926
00:49:10.079 --> 00:49:13.389
act the way they act. Um, it's a wonderful book.
927
00:49:13.510 --> 00:49:15.170
Elaine de Botton is one of the best thinkers of
928
00:49:15.250 --> 00:49:18.130
our time. He's like the Socrates of our time. The
929
00:49:18.170 --> 00:49:22.090
dude's fucking brilliant. I would, first off recommend that. Then– I.
930
00:49:23.659 --> 00:49:25.929
Think he was just on Tim Ferriss' podcast actually.
931
00:49:25.969 --> 00:49:35.800
Yeah. I actually– yes. So then I might– I might
932
00:49:35.840 --> 00:49:39.199
have them look at Clayton Christensen's book, What Do You
933
00:49:39.219 --> 00:49:42.099
Want to Do with Your Life? It's pretty good about
934
00:49:42.159 --> 00:49:46.070
sort of sorting out the moral issues. And then assuming
935
00:49:46.110 --> 00:49:49.570
they want to start their own thing or their own business. Man,
936
00:49:49.610 --> 00:49:53.070
there's so many great books about how to start a business.
937
00:49:53.570 --> 00:49:56.050
You know, I don't know, man. They could go with...
938
00:49:57.090 --> 00:49:59.079
I don't know. It's hard to say. It depends what field,
939
00:49:59.159 --> 00:50:03.039
like if it's in tech, I would point them towards, uh,
940
00:50:03.099 --> 00:50:05.099
maybe lean startup. If it's in sort of, if they
941
00:50:05.139 --> 00:50:07.480
want more small business type thing, I maybe point them
942
00:50:07.519 --> 00:50:12.409
towards like EMS. Uh, if they want to do like
943
00:50:12.670 --> 00:50:15.530
some sort of nonprofit thing, I might point them to like,
944
00:50:15.550 --> 00:50:17.369
I mean, there's a ton of those books. Maybe I
945
00:50:17.409 --> 00:50:19.570
know Adam pretty well. So maybe pencils of promise. Like
946
00:50:20.110 --> 00:50:22.019
it just kind of depends what field they want to
947
00:50:22.039 --> 00:50:27.449
go into. Um, as to which book is how to
948
00:50:27.489 --> 00:50:28.409
start in that field.
949
00:50:28.489 --> 00:50:31.010
I love it. It's great. Hey, man, Tucker, I really
950
00:50:31.030 --> 00:50:33.769
appreciate you. You've been really generous with your time, your investment,
951
00:50:33.809 --> 00:50:35.760
and bringing the energy, man. I got one more question
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00:50:35.780 --> 00:50:38.760
before we jump off here. It's all around, like I
953
00:50:38.780 --> 00:50:40.480
told you before we started recording, my show is a
954
00:50:40.519 --> 00:50:43.400
learning leader show. It's all about focusing on the art
955
00:50:43.420 --> 00:50:47.880
and science of leadership and constantly striving to improve and
956
00:50:47.900 --> 00:50:51.809
get better on a day-to-day basis, thus the learning aspect
957
00:50:51.889 --> 00:50:54.050
of it. And I'm curious, when you hear the phrase
958
00:50:54.130 --> 00:50:57.980
learning leader, what pops into your mind? Is it a person?
959
00:50:58.139 --> 00:51:01.019
Is there a definition in your mind? What do you
960
00:51:01.039 --> 00:51:02.420
think of when you hear that phrase?
961
00:51:03.699 --> 00:51:07.760
I mean, that's like, to me, what pops into my
962
00:51:07.800 --> 00:51:11.429
mind is sort of what we're doing with our company,
963
00:51:11.449 --> 00:51:13.570
A Book in a Box. I feel like there's a
964
00:51:13.650 --> 00:51:17.789
massive tectonic shift going on underway in business, and it's
965
00:51:17.869 --> 00:51:21.570
invisible to most people. But I think most people, 20th
966
00:51:21.610 --> 00:51:28.179
century organizations were about access to resources. I think 21st organizations,
967
00:51:28.199 --> 00:51:31.860
21st century organizations that succeed are going to be about
968
00:51:32.039 --> 00:51:35.800
access to, uh, both knowledge and wisdom, which are not
969
00:51:35.860 --> 00:51:39.219
the same thing, but really max, mostly access to wisdom.
970
00:51:39.719 --> 00:51:44.869
And that means you, that means you, that 21st century
971
00:51:44.929 --> 00:51:49.409
organizations are essentially learning organizations. And, uh, and the, the,
972
00:51:49.530 --> 00:51:55.940
the better, uh, leaders institute a learning environment, hire learners,
973
00:51:56.139 --> 00:51:59.559
institute an environment that fosters both learning and then changes
974
00:51:59.579 --> 00:52:02.530
the results of the learning. And the quicker the organization
975
00:52:02.570 --> 00:52:05.409
can learn, the better it's going to succeed. That's the
976
00:52:05.469 --> 00:52:08.929
way I see myself, my job and my company. uh
977
00:52:09.329 --> 00:52:12.349
is to find the best possible people i can and
978
00:52:12.369 --> 00:52:14.170
then give them set them up in a way to
979
00:52:14.230 --> 00:52:16.769
succeed uh and then that's a big part of the
980
00:52:16.789 --> 00:52:19.989
way we set up our organization is that like everyone's
981
00:52:20.010 --> 00:52:23.179
a learner at every level and we assume everything we're
982
00:52:23.239 --> 00:52:25.380
doing is wrong and will eventually have to be changed
983
00:52:25.460 --> 00:52:27.039
but it's just what we're going to do right now
984
00:52:27.460 --> 00:52:29.480
and everyone's job is to constantly make it better and
985
00:52:29.500 --> 00:52:30.840
the only way to make it better is to learn
986
00:52:30.860 --> 00:52:34.340
man so like that that's what comes to my mind Awesome.
987
00:52:34.460 --> 00:52:38.619
That's so good. And I love it. And where would
988
00:52:38.659 --> 00:52:40.199
you send people to find you online?
989
00:52:41.409 --> 00:52:43.329
It depends what they want. If you want books, go
990
00:52:43.349 --> 00:52:48.090
to bookinabox.com. If you want to read my books, probably
991
00:52:48.110 --> 00:52:50.949
go to Amazon and buy them. I don't know.
992
00:52:51.170 --> 00:52:55.469
I mean– no that's good that's probably about it yeah
993
00:52:55.730 --> 00:52:58.769
okay cool man like I said I really appreciate it
994
00:52:59.150 --> 00:53:02.500
and I look forward to continue talking as we both
995
00:53:02.719 --> 00:53:05.960
progress I'm excited to see the everything you do with
996
00:53:06.000 --> 00:53:09.130
book in a box as we both progress man cool
997
00:53:09.150 --> 00:53:11.070
man thank you brother thanks man see ya.
998
00:53:13.900 --> 00:53:16.360
This episode of The Learning Leader Show is over, but
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00:53:16.389 --> 00:53:18.570
we have plenty more to keep you locked in until
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00:53:18.630 --> 00:53:23.130
next time. Head over to learningleadershow.com for more information and
1001
00:53:23.150 --> 00:53:27.730
to request your favorite entrepreneur, CEO, world-class athlete, or anyone
1002
00:53:27.789 --> 00:53:30.429
else that inspires you. You can also talk to Ryan
1003
00:53:30.449 --> 00:53:33.750
directly by reaching out to him on Twitter at RyanHawk12.
1004
00:53:34.309 --> 00:53:36.369
Thanks again, and we'll see you next time on The
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00:53:36.409 --> 00:53:37.280
Learning Leader Show.