WEBVTT
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Hey, welcome back to the Lars Larson Show.
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It's a pleasure to be with you on a conspiracy theory Thursday.
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ABC Television says the Trump administration is trying to censor it.
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But is that really about free speech or a network trying to dodge accountability?
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I thought we'd ask John O'Connor about it.
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John is the author of Postgate, and he served as assistant U.S.
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attorney in Northern California.
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John, welcome back to the program.
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Good to be with you, Lars.
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So should we believe that uh ABC is is simply a victim of censorship by the evil Trump administration?
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And then I've got a good example from about 50 years ago of the FCC doing the same kind of thing in a far different era for the same reason.
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Well, let me say this.
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To a certain extent, I would agree with ABC if, if, if it weren't for this pesky fact that they're operating under a license.
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And not everybody can go in, and you and I can't go in and get a television broadcasting license and start our own television station.
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And so uh I think it's I think that's the key.
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You know, with limited licenses, and in this case, they dominate the airwaves along with some other major media.
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Um, what responsibility do they have to the public?
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Now I'd be the first to say that this is fertile ground for lawyers.
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You can always come in and say, well, you know, what's in the public interest, uh, you know, uh isn't free speech, even if you don't like it, in the public interest, etc., etc.
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So there are plenty of legal arguments you can make.
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But uh, but ABC, and I think they are appropriately so, somewhat shaken.
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And I think if if um if I'm reading the tea leaves right, I think Trump's goal through Brennan Carr is to get some sort of a moderation of what ABC is doing because it's almost like the Jimmy Kimmel show and the View are in kind contributions to political campaigns.
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They're so stridently political.
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Yep.
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And uh, you know, and and anytime anybody does that on the other side, or can even be accused of, oh, you're doing something to help Trump.
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Well, well, what you know, but what about you guys?
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What about this?
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It's you know, every day, every day there's uh it's a political attack.
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And so I do think there's something to be said, and I think if our ABC I'd say, look, we we gotta look in the mirror here.
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Even if you keep another thing is, even if you keep Kimmel in the view doing what they're doing, what what else are you doing to s to say that there should be some balance here?
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Uh uh and we've gotten rid of the fairness doctrine, but that doesn't mean that the these uh uh stations, these uh broadcasters shouldn't be fair.
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They should be fair, and there are different ways to achieve it.
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Even if you let Kimmel go and you let him yammer on, I I mean I you know, he's he really narrows his office by not being as funny and as broad as Johnny Carson or Jay Leno.
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I think he he hurts himself, but that's their choice.
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But they ought to have something in there, some sort of, if you will, counterprogramming, somebody that actually and and you know, and I know this isn't uh uh ABC, but think about how bad Saturday Night Live has gotten, because there's almost this unwritten rule that you can't be truly funny, you can't make fun of anybody that is on the left side of the spectrum.
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I mean, that's no fun.
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That's no.
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No, even even when there are abundant opportunities.
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I mean, think about if you just think if you take politics out of it and you say, I I don't think much of Kamala Harris, I didn't think much of Joe Biden.
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I think he's a criminal, I think his family's a criminal family.
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But could you have mocked, you know, President Auto Penn?
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Could you have mocked Kamala Harris, the vice president, who sounded like she was always, you know, half in the bottle by noon every day?
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And and you say, Of course you could.
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And you say, Did Saturday Night Live take take advantage of that?
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They really didn't.
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Uh and there could be some balance.
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But, John, I'm gonna tell you, I I got into radio about 51 years ago.
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And then about 50 years ago, one year after I got in, there was a station that was actually taken off the air by the FCC.
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And it was over this same issue.
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It was political bias during a U.S.
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Senate campaign, because they simply went on the air and they and they they had a completely bent coverage of a particular campaign.
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In fact, I I knew one of the he's dead now, but I knew one of the people who was involved who benefited from the bent coverage.
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Now, I'd only been a radio for a year at that point, but they literally came in and turned the station off, which they never did back in those days.
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They do it today.
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But that was the FCC saying if you're gonna get involved in completely bent coverage one direction or the other, then we're gonna come in and take action against you.
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So this is nothing new, is it?
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Well, no, and I'd love to know who was the uh who was that?
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You've really got me curious.
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Oh, I what uh what candidate was it?
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I knew him reasonably well.
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He was already it was it was Senator Mark Hatfield, who was who ended up, not at that point, but it uh he ended up as one of the most powerful U.S.
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senators in America, even though he came from a state that only had at that point about three million people, you know, or the state of Oregon.
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But he became uh, let's see, Packwood was uh ways and means taxes, and hat Hatfield was appropriation.
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So when you controlled, when you had one state that had two senators that controlled the taxing and the spending in America, then you you basically owned the whole the whole shooting works.
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And and what was the coverage?
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Was the coverage pro uh Hatfield or anti?
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Yeah, it was it was pro-Hatfield.
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And uh and so they they they went in and like I said, there used to be a time when the FCC would not let a station, as they called it then, go dark.
00:06:04.879 --> 00:06:15.360
That is, they would they would tell you if you owned a station and you told the FCC we're out of money, we're broke, they would say, you are not allowed to let that station go off the air because they wanted you to serve the public interest.
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That was the phrase.
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And so they never let stations go dark.
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Today, times have changed considerably because of social media and a bunch of other things.
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But back then, they would not let you take it off the air.
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They came into that station.
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The FCC sent officials into the station and they literally flipped the switch from on to off.
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And I take it that was because they were more on the Democrat side of the spectrum and wanted to silence a Republican.
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I I guess.
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And and by the way, we're coming right up on the anniversary.
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It was September 2, 1976.
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So it was right then.
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And they found they said the FCC found the station had violated political broadcasting rules and displayed a lack of candor, and there were questions about misrepresentation and accusations of biased political reporting.
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Well, there you go.
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Uh, and I think that's probably the hook.
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And that's probably the hook if there are sustained um omissions of truth or or statements that really are only half true, you can start saying, wait a second, this goes from simply First Amendment issues into false advertising.
00:07:31.199 --> 00:07:40.240
And and and it really is it in using the airwaves in a false way, and not just saying, gee, I like it's one thing to say I don't like Trump and I like this other guy.
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It's another thing to just to falsify things.
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Well, and and here's the thing, John, to your point that radio spectrum is limited and it is licensed by the federal government.
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We have a thing called the Hatch Act that says if you're a public official, you are not allowed to spend public resources to benefit one political side or the other political side.
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You're not allowed to do it.
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It violates the Hatch Act.
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U and it gets brought up all the time these days.
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And you say, well, if it's illegal to spend the public's resources, usually meaning taxpayer dollars, would it be okay to take a a rare or uh a scarce resource like radio or television spectrum and allow it to be spent to mostly benefit one side or mostly benefit the other side?
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And I think it would it would fit right in with a Hatch Act that would say you can't allow that to happen because only certain people have licenses to run radio and TV stations.
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And maybe, maybe ABC needs to straighten out its own neck.
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That is John O'Connor.
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John, it is a pleasure to have you on.
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Author of Postgate served as assistant U.S.
00:08:45.039 --> 00:08:46.960
attorney in Northern California.
00:00:09.679 --> 00:00:11.919
Hey, welcome back to the Lars Larson Show.
00:00:12.000 --> 00:00:15.119
It's a pleasure to be with you on a conspiracy theory Thursday.
00:00:15.359 --> 00:00:20.160
ABC Television says the Trump administration is trying to censor it.
00:00:20.320 --> 00:00:24.559
But is that really about free speech or a network trying to dodge accountability?
00:00:24.719 --> 00:00:26.640
I thought we'd ask John O'Connor about it.
00:00:26.800 --> 00:00:30.160
John is the author of Postgate, and he served as assistant U.S.
00:00:30.320 --> 00:00:31.839
attorney in Northern California.
00:00:32.079 --> 00:00:33.679
John, welcome back to the program.
00:00:34.320 --> 00:00:35.759
Good to be with you, Lars.
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So should we believe that uh ABC is is simply a victim of censorship by the evil Trump administration?
00:00:43.039 --> 00:00:51.359
And then I've got a good example from about 50 years ago of the FCC doing the same kind of thing in a far different era for the same reason.
00:00:52.399 --> 00:00:54.159
Well, let me say this.
00:00:54.399 --> 00:01:04.480
To a certain extent, I would agree with ABC if, if, if it weren't for this pesky fact that they're operating under a license.
00:01:04.640 --> 00:01:11.760
And not everybody can go in, and you and I can't go in and get a television broadcasting license and start our own television station.
00:01:12.079 --> 00:01:15.599
And so uh I think it's I think that's the key.
00:01:15.760 --> 00:01:21.840
You know, with limited licenses, and in this case, they dominate the airwaves along with some other major media.
00:01:22.079 --> 00:01:24.959
Um, what responsibility do they have to the public?
00:01:25.120 --> 00:01:29.120
Now I'd be the first to say that this is fertile ground for lawyers.
00:01:29.200 --> 00:01:38.560
You can always come in and say, well, you know, what's in the public interest, uh, you know, uh isn't free speech, even if you don't like it, in the public interest, etc., etc.
00:01:38.799 --> 00:01:41.439
So there are plenty of legal arguments you can make.
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But uh, but ABC, and I think they are appropriately so, somewhat shaken.
00:01:47.920 --> 00:02:11.120
And I think if if um if I'm reading the tea leaves right, I think Trump's goal through Brennan Carr is to get some sort of a moderation of what ABC is doing because it's almost like the Jimmy Kimmel show and the View are in kind contributions to political campaigns.
00:02:11.280 --> 00:02:13.280
They're so stridently political.
00:02:13.439 --> 00:02:13.840
Yep.
00:02:14.080 --> 00:02:20.879
And uh, you know, and and anytime anybody does that on the other side, or can even be accused of, oh, you're doing something to help Trump.
00:02:21.039 --> 00:02:23.680
Well, well, what you know, but what about you guys?
00:02:23.840 --> 00:02:24.319
What about this?
00:02:24.479 --> 00:02:28.800
It's you know, every day, every day there's uh it's a political attack.
00:02:28.960 --> 00:02:36.159
And so I do think there's something to be said, and I think if our ABC I'd say, look, we we gotta look in the mirror here.
00:02:36.400 --> 00:02:46.719
Even if you keep another thing is, even if you keep Kimmel in the view doing what they're doing, what what else are you doing to s to say that there should be some balance here?
00:02:47.360 --> 00:02:57.439
Uh uh and we've gotten rid of the fairness doctrine, but that doesn't mean that the these uh uh stations, these uh broadcasters shouldn't be fair.
00:02:57.680 --> 00:03:00.319
They should be fair, and there are different ways to achieve it.
00:03:00.400 --> 00:03:11.520
Even if you let Kimmel go and you let him yammer on, I I mean I you know, he's he really narrows his office by not being as funny and as broad as Johnny Carson or Jay Leno.
00:03:11.759 --> 00:03:14.719
I think he he hurts himself, but that's their choice.
00:03:14.960 --> 00:03:39.759
But they ought to have something in there, some sort of, if you will, counterprogramming, somebody that actually and and you know, and I know this isn't uh uh ABC, but think about how bad Saturday Night Live has gotten, because there's almost this unwritten rule that you can't be truly funny, you can't make fun of anybody that is on the left side of the spectrum.
00:03:39.919 --> 00:03:40.719
I mean, that's no fun.
00:03:40.800 --> 00:03:41.120
That's no.
00:03:41.520 --> 00:03:43.840
No, even even when there are abundant opportunities.
00:03:43.919 --> 00:03:51.039
I mean, think about if you just think if you take politics out of it and you say, I I don't think much of Kamala Harris, I didn't think much of Joe Biden.
00:03:51.280 --> 00:03:54.479
I think he's a criminal, I think his family's a criminal family.
00:03:54.719 --> 00:03:58.080
But could you have mocked, you know, President Auto Penn?
00:03:58.319 --> 00:04:05.039
Could you have mocked Kamala Harris, the vice president, who sounded like she was always, you know, half in the bottle by noon every day?
00:04:05.199 --> 00:04:06.800
And and you say, Of course you could.
00:04:06.879 --> 00:04:09.919
And you say, Did Saturday Night Live take take advantage of that?
00:04:10.080 --> 00:04:11.039
They really didn't.
00:04:11.199 --> 00:04:12.719
Uh and there could be some balance.
00:04:12.800 --> 00:04:18.000
But, John, I'm gonna tell you, I I got into radio about 51 years ago.
00:04:18.160 --> 00:04:26.000
And then about 50 years ago, one year after I got in, there was a station that was actually taken off the air by the FCC.
00:04:26.160 --> 00:04:27.759
And it was over this same issue.
00:04:27.920 --> 00:04:30.000
It was political bias during a U.S.
00:04:30.160 --> 00:04:38.639
Senate campaign, because they simply went on the air and they and they they had a completely bent coverage of a particular campaign.
00:04:38.800 --> 00:04:44.800
In fact, I I knew one of the he's dead now, but I knew one of the people who was involved who benefited from the bent coverage.
00:04:44.959 --> 00:04:53.360
Now, I'd only been a radio for a year at that point, but they literally came in and turned the station off, which they never did back in those days.
00:04:53.519 --> 00:04:54.480
They do it today.
00:04:54.639 --> 00:05:03.839
But that was the FCC saying if you're gonna get involved in completely bent coverage one direction or the other, then we're gonna come in and take action against you.
00:05:04.000 --> 00:05:06.079
So this is nothing new, is it?
00:05:06.959 --> 00:05:09.839
Well, no, and I'd love to know who was the uh who was that?
00:05:10.000 --> 00:05:11.040
You've really got me curious.
00:05:11.279 --> 00:05:13.120
Oh, I what uh what candidate was it?
00:05:13.360 --> 00:05:14.399
I knew him reasonably well.
00:05:14.560 --> 00:05:23.040
He was already it was it was Senator Mark Hatfield, who was who ended up, not at that point, but it uh he ended up as one of the most powerful U.S.
00:05:23.199 --> 00:05:30.079
senators in America, even though he came from a state that only had at that point about three million people, you know, or the state of Oregon.
00:05:30.240 --> 00:05:37.120
But he became uh, let's see, Packwood was uh ways and means taxes, and hat Hatfield was appropriation.
00:05:37.199 --> 00:05:48.079
So when you controlled, when you had one state that had two senators that controlled the taxing and the spending in America, then you you basically owned the whole the whole shooting works.
00:05:48.800 --> 00:05:50.319
And and what was the coverage?
00:05:50.480 --> 00:05:52.720
Was the coverage pro uh Hatfield or anti?
00:05:53.120 --> 00:05:54.800
Yeah, it was it was pro-Hatfield.
00:05:55.040 --> 00:06:04.639
And uh and so they they they went in and like I said, there used to be a time when the FCC would not let a station, as they called it then, go dark.
00:06:04.879 --> 00:06:15.360
That is, they would they would tell you if you owned a station and you told the FCC we're out of money, we're broke, they would say, you are not allowed to let that station go off the air because they wanted you to serve the public interest.
00:06:15.519 --> 00:06:16.399
That was the phrase.
00:06:16.560 --> 00:06:18.720
And so they never let stations go dark.
00:06:18.879 --> 00:06:23.680
Today, times have changed considerably because of social media and a bunch of other things.
00:06:23.839 --> 00:06:26.560
But back then, they would not let you take it off the air.
00:06:26.720 --> 00:06:28.480
They came into that station.
00:06:28.639 --> 00:06:34.480
The FCC sent officials into the station and they literally flipped the switch from on to off.
00:06:35.519 --> 00:06:42.480
And I take it that was because they were more on the Democrat side of the spectrum and wanted to silence a Republican.
00:06:42.879 --> 00:06:43.680
I I guess.
00:06:43.839 --> 00:06:46.639
And and by the way, we're coming right up on the anniversary.
00:06:46.720 --> 00:06:49.839
It was September 2, 1976.
00:06:50.639 --> 00:06:52.879
So it was right then.
00:06:53.839 --> 00:07:08.160
And they found they said the FCC found the station had violated political broadcasting rules and displayed a lack of candor, and there were questions about misrepresentation and accusations of biased political reporting.
00:07:10.000 --> 00:07:11.360
Well, there you go.
00:07:11.439 --> 00:07:13.680
Uh, and I think that's probably the hook.
00:07:13.839 --> 00:07:31.040
And that's probably the hook if there are sustained um omissions of truth or or statements that really are only half true, you can start saying, wait a second, this goes from simply First Amendment issues into false advertising.
00:07:31.199 --> 00:07:40.240
And and and it really is it in using the airwaves in a false way, and not just saying, gee, I like it's one thing to say I don't like Trump and I like this other guy.
00:07:40.319 --> 00:07:42.560
It's another thing to just to falsify things.
00:07:42.959 --> 00:07:50.079
Well, and and here's the thing, John, to your point that radio spectrum is limited and it is licensed by the federal government.
00:07:50.240 --> 00:08:00.639
We have a thing called the Hatch Act that says if you're a public official, you are not allowed to spend public resources to benefit one political side or the other political side.
00:08:00.800 --> 00:08:01.759
You're not allowed to do it.
00:08:01.920 --> 00:08:03.279
It violates the Hatch Act.
00:08:03.519 --> 00:08:05.920
U and it gets brought up all the time these days.
00:08:06.079 --> 00:08:24.160
And you say, well, if it's illegal to spend the public's resources, usually meaning taxpayer dollars, would it be okay to take a a rare or uh a scarce resource like radio or television spectrum and allow it to be spent to mostly benefit one side or mostly benefit the other side?
00:08:24.319 --> 00:08:34.399
And I think it would it would fit right in with a Hatch Act that would say you can't allow that to happen because only certain people have licenses to run radio and TV stations.
00:08:34.559 --> 00:08:38.399
And maybe, maybe ABC needs to straighten out its own neck.
00:08:38.559 --> 00:08:39.919
That is John O'Connor.
00:08:40.080 --> 00:08:41.919
John, it is a pleasure to have you on.
00:08:42.159 --> 00:08:44.960
Author of Postgate served as assistant U.S.
00:08:45.039 --> 00:08:46.960
attorney in Northern California.
