20 // Amanda Van de Paverd // Unleashing the Maverick organisation: Transforming the Public Sector to improve adaptability and innovation

WEBVTT
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How are we going to be innovative if we can't
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even question how we do things? And everything
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is just non -reflective and following that bouncing
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ball. That was the voice of Amanda Vandepavern,
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the guest on this episode of The Knowledge Mill.
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I'm your host, Greg Yocum. Amanda Van de Pavert
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is currently pursuing her PhD at the University
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of Queensland, building on an extensive career
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as a consultant and with the Royal Australian
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Air Force, or the RAAF. Amanda's research explores
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the practice of maverickism applied at the organizational
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level to improve innovation, learning, and adaptability
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in public sector organizations. She has completed
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her final review and just a few weeks ago submitted
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her thesis for examination. During her tenure
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with the RAAF, Amanda specialized in personnel
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management, organizational design, and workforce
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optimization. Her exemplary service included
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operational duties, earning her accommodation
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for her significant contributions to the International
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Campaign Against Terror. Beyond her Ph .D. research,
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Amanda has publications in defense industry outlets
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such as The Forge and the Propel Her Australia
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series. Since transitioning from full -time military
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service, Amanda has worked as a management consultant.
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focusing on leadership, change management, and
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organizational design. She has successfully led
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reviews, large -scale projects, and cultural
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change initiatives across diverse sectors, including
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NGOs, government, health, energy, and resources.
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Amanda is a proud mother of two daughters who
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inspire her continuous pursuit of knowledge and
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professional growth. Currently, Amanda serves
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on the Board of Directors at Family Services
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Australia, where she chairs the Human Resources
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and Governance Committee. She is also a director
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at Prax Studio, overseeing business operations
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and management. My conversation with Amanda folded
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over onto itself a couple of times in ways that
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I think listeners will find very satisfying.
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Her journey to and through her PhD candidature
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will serve as a valuable reminder that being
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purpose -driven in your life and work will take
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you further than maybe you think you can go.
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This episode of The Knowledge Mill was recorded
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at the University of Queensland in Brisbane on
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June 12, 2025. Show notes, including links to
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more information on some of the topics that Amanda
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and I discuss, can be found at thenowledgemill
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.com slash episode 20. That's episode and the
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numerals 2 and 0. Hi Amanda, welcome to the program.
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Thanks for having me on. Absolutely. We are here
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on your beautiful campus. I was telling you before
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we started recording that this is my second time
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on your beautiful campus here at the University
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of Queensland. Classic sandstone architecture
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and a standalone campus sort of along the river.
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It's a very beautiful scene. Oh, it is. Actually,
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I don't come out here very often. I work mostly
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from home, but whenever I come out here, I do
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think it's such a beautiful place to be and to
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walk around and the jacaranda trees and the river.
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Well, yeah, that's right. Even as I was pulling
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in today, my wife dropped me off this morning
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to come and meet you. And I was saying, in between
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these conversations we're having today, I'm just
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going to go for a walk around the campus and
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just take this all in. And I find it very, it
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makes me feel more scholarly to be on a campus
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like this. I definitely think it's a privilege
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to have this campus. It's beautiful. And I often
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go for walks around. I do a lot of exercise.
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It's just part of what I do. So I do a lot of
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weightlifting and runs and walks, although I'm
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getting a bit old now. So the running has dropped
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off a little bit from what I used to do. Fair
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enough. I'll say that's why I don't run too.
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Well, could you tell us a little bit about how
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you found yourself? Doing a PhD here. Absolutely.
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So it's a long story, sorry. I like long stories.
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So I used to be in defense, a uniformed defense
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member, and I left in 2014 and I started doing
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a lot of consulting work and I worked for a lot
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of public sector organizations. And over COVID,
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I went back and did a defense contract. And one
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of the things that really kind of stood out to
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me was that public sector organisations, and
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particularly Defence, because it is very structured,
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has very much a follow the bouncing ball, process
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-driven approach to the way that they do business.
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Now, my other half is an architect, and we have
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an architecture company, and he uses design thinking.
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As part of that process, it is always how can
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we do this better? And what I found the difference
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between a lot of public sector organisations
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and, you know, the design thinking principles
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is that when you're so process -based, you stop
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asking whether or not this is the best way to
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do it and you stop asking questions about can
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we do this better? Is this innovative? And it
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becomes really unreflective and you kind of go,
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okay, so how? How are we going to be innovative
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if we can't even question how we do things and
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everything is just non -reflective and following
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that bouncing ball? And that became particularly
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important during the COVID period where a lot
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of things were changing rapidly and we needed
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to work out how to do business differently. But
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the default is always, okay, so what does the
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policy say? That kind of made me question, okay,
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so there's a lot of public sector organisations
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out there who have to respond to volatile and
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uncertain environments. However, they're fundamentally
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bureaucratic. They're designed based on don't
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question things, follow the bouncing ball, very
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strict structure and processes. They're the ones
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that have to respond to these rapidly changing
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and actually life -threatening in some cases
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environments. And they don't have the flexibility.
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They don't have the innovation to be keeping
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up with those things. And so I kind of went back
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to... For me, this kind of sparked this, this
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is a really big problem. How are these organisations
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going to respond and change rapidly? And particularly
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if you're heading towards war or you're heading
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towards a pandemic and you're a health organisation
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or you're a police organisation and you're having
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to respond to something, how do you do that if
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you actually can't even fundamentally change
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basic process? You're going to be doing things
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inefficiently. You know, we're not going to serve
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the public as best as we can. And so that became
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like a really big problem for me. And I was really
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motivated to kind of go, how can we do this better?
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And then something that really has stuck with
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me always from having a background in defense
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is that defense in particularly and most public
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service organizations are really bound by the
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sense of service. and driven by this sense of
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the greater good you know like delivering for
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the community and i found this research on maverickism
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which is you know people who disrupt but and
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they question things but they do so for the benefit
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of the organization and they do so um in a contextual
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manner driven by this concept of higher order
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values and i found that really fascinating i'm
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like okay so If an organization, if a public
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sector organization could harness that at the
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organization level where you could have value
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-based disruption, you could really get some
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beneficial factors and start to question some
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of these things that need to be questioned, but
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within bounded disruption. And so that was really
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kind of the motivating factor for me. And that's
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kind of the path I've gone down. And yeah, it
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was basically just this like big complex problem
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that I was like. There has to be a solution.
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Yeah, absolutely. I think that's really powerful
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because you're talking about public organizations
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who ostensibly exist to serve the public. And
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then part of design thinking, of course, is to
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empathize with end users to understand their
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unmet needs and desires. And so if organizations
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are not doing that, they're not even understanding
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the people that they're meant to be serving.
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Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And, I mean, I don't
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go into design thinking as such. I embed it in
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maverickism. And I think what's important about
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that is because public sector transformation
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and change has always been and since kind of
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since the 90s has really focused on entrepreneurship.
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And it's like. Entrepreneurship just does not
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fit with public sector organizations for a number
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of reasons. And so I've tried to kind of reshape
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that conversation about how to bring in the innovative
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side of entrepreneurship, but actually embed
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it in that values -based decision making. Yeah,
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because there's an incentive problem with entrepreneurship,
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isn't there? Because in the business context,
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of course, the idea of being an entrepreneur
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is... starting something yeah absolutely less
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about running something yeah yeah and it's externally
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focused um and ultimately in public sector you
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kind of want to be focused on who you're serving
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and the community and you know those kind of
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purpose -driven organizations i think you're
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right that this is not fit for purpose and so
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i'm interested about this this idea of maverickism
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that you've raised i haven't encountered this
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concept before could you kind of walk me through
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what that is and what it looked like in your
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in your research sure i mean um there's not a
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lot of literature on maverickism and in fact
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um so my supervisor she did her phd on maverickism
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and um I found her, like I came across her research
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whilst I was kind of stumbling across this problem
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and I was just like, oh, my God, that's it. Yeah,
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right. She did the maverick habitus. So, you
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know, what is it that makes up a maverick and
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what are the things, what are their dispositions
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that make them who they are? And that's kind
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of where I went through her research. And I'm
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like, well, these people are disruptive and they're
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innovative, but they're politically savvy and
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they're bounded in the way that they disrupt.
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They're not just doing it for the sake of disruption.
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They're doing it for the benefit of the organization.
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And so I was really interested in that. And that's
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kind of started to ignite my passion a little
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bit about exploring this further. I found some
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other research that showed that they're more
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beneficial and they can be disruptive and they
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can have negative effects. But functional maverickism
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can actually be really, really beneficial for
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the organization. And in fact, whilst dysfunctional
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maverickism, and if it's not guided and it's
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not purpose -driven, can be actually negative
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for teams and things like that. if it's guided
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and purpose -driven and it has those clear goals,
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it can have some fundamental transformative beneficial
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impact on organizations. They can act as great
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change agents. There's literature saying that
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actually they can improve team. dynamics in diversity
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of thought so they can help facilitate the flow
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of new ideas and help give other people voices
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um and yeah i think there was a lot of really
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interesting things there that had kind of because
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it's not widely known about and it's not widely
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published you know these these snippets of absolute
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gold were just kind of doing nothing and not
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making as much impact as i think that they could
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yeah Because that sort of exists. Maverickism,
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it seems to me, exists at this intersection of
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these different things we've been talking about.
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Like entrepreneurs, they have this phrase, move
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fast and break things. But of course, that leaves
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off the, but why? Why would we break things?
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And so if you have the intention, then it seems
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like we're moving into something like maverickism.
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And if you have the bounded nature of it, like
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within... the organizational practice, the mission
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and vision, what are we actually here to do?
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This does seem like it would be really powerful
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in all these ways that you're mentioning. Are
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you able to share any examples of how Mavericks
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do this, like what this looks like in practice?
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Well, as I said, my supervisor did a lot of research
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on Mavericks and she actually did a publication
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that... demonstrated the separation between entrepreneurs
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innovators and and Mavericks and was able to
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demonstrate some overlapping traits and what
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differentiated them and to you know some of the
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overlapping traits were creativity and innovation
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and a little bit of disruption but really for
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me what set my bricks apart was one it was bounded
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to it was an internally focus and three it was
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They were guided by values. So those were the
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key differentiators for me, basically, that linked
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to my research. So, you know, in my studies,
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I provided an example of beneficial disruption
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that's, you know, within the bounds of higher
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order values. You know, you're not breaking laws.
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You're not breaking, you know, you're doing things
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and you're disrupting a little bit. But you know
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where those kind of, you know, those barriers
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are. So it's a little bit of testing and adjusting.
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And I think there is some other research by Gardner
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and Jackson that talks about them being deep
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learners. And that was the other fundamental
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part for me is that, you know, rather than being
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these, you know, entrepreneurs that are out there
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kind of looking at new markets and things like
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these, they're deep learners. They're just testing
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and adjusting. Yeah. And so for me, that was
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what it came back to that, you know, we're talking
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about design thinking earlier. And that's what
00:14:44.320 --> 00:14:46.059
it came back to is that testing and adjusting.
00:14:46.240 --> 00:14:50.299
Yeah. And that learning capability because specifically
00:14:50.299 --> 00:14:52.799
for public sector organizations, you want to
00:14:52.799 --> 00:14:56.220
see them be able to evolve. Yes. And evolve in
00:14:56.220 --> 00:14:59.679
a kind of organic responsive way where it's not
00:14:59.679 --> 00:15:02.340
clunky. And I think it becomes because it's so
00:15:02.340 --> 00:15:05.340
bounded, so structured and so process based.
00:15:06.000 --> 00:15:08.460
any kind of change becomes really difficult because
00:15:08.460 --> 00:15:11.960
they've got so much structural inertia. And so
00:15:11.960 --> 00:15:15.039
this kind of concept of maverickism could be
00:15:15.039 --> 00:15:17.820
so transformational to just drive that learning.
00:15:18.120 --> 00:15:20.500
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Because it occurs to
00:15:20.500 --> 00:15:22.580
me, this is also similar to what people might
00:15:22.580 --> 00:15:25.080
call like a devil's advocate. But I don't think
00:15:25.080 --> 00:15:27.220
that a devil's advocate is acting in good faith
00:15:27.220 --> 00:15:30.820
in the sense of when I hear devil's advocate,
00:15:30.879 --> 00:15:32.879
I think of someone who's just... challenging
00:15:32.879 --> 00:15:35.120
the status quo just because they feel like someone
00:15:35.120 --> 00:15:38.840
needs to versus what you're describing with that
00:15:38.840 --> 00:15:41.500
learning mindset of I want to I'm questioning
00:15:41.500 --> 00:15:44.519
you because I want to understand more why you're
00:15:44.519 --> 00:15:46.059
doing what you're doing the way that you're doing
00:15:46.059 --> 00:15:48.019
it and maybe I'll have some feedback maybe I
00:15:48.019 --> 00:15:51.980
won't but then from my view the power of doing
00:15:51.980 --> 00:15:56.179
that is Maybe, you know, if you're in a work
00:15:56.179 --> 00:15:57.960
-in -progress meeting, and you're all sharing
00:15:57.960 --> 00:15:59.639
notes about the work you're doing on projects,
00:15:59.840 --> 00:16:01.960
and I'm questioning someone about a project they're
00:16:01.960 --> 00:16:03.860
doing. Why did you do that the way you did it?
00:16:04.000 --> 00:16:06.620
What about XYZ? Did you think about ABC? And
00:16:06.620 --> 00:16:08.039
maybe I don't have anything to say about that
00:16:08.039 --> 00:16:10.220
then, but now I have that information, and I
00:16:10.220 --> 00:16:11.779
know why they acted the way they did in that
00:16:11.779 --> 00:16:15.059
context when faced with that situation. And the
00:16:15.059 --> 00:16:17.379
next time I see that, I'm going to have that
00:16:17.379 --> 00:16:19.500
information, and I'm going to be empowered to
00:16:19.500 --> 00:16:21.679
engage with that. Whereas if I'm just receiving
00:16:21.679 --> 00:16:24.740
information passively all the time, Then I'm
00:16:24.740 --> 00:16:29.200
having to go through a process of self -negotiation
00:16:29.200 --> 00:16:33.399
at every move rather than moving with some agency.
00:16:34.059 --> 00:16:37.080
Yeah. Actually, one of the people I interviewed
00:16:37.080 --> 00:16:40.200
spoke about that. That was one thing that one
00:16:40.200 --> 00:16:42.120
of the senior leaders I interviewed talked about
00:16:42.120 --> 00:16:44.980
that sense of agency. And she said, you know,
00:16:44.980 --> 00:16:47.100
some people just have more of a sense of agency
00:16:47.100 --> 00:16:50.889
than others. And so one of the things that I
00:16:50.889 --> 00:16:53.750
reflected on after that was, well, what gives
00:16:53.750 --> 00:16:56.750
some people a sense of agency versus others who
00:16:56.750 --> 00:16:59.149
don't feel they have that sense of agency? And
00:16:59.149 --> 00:17:02.809
then looking at the organizational factors and
00:17:02.809 --> 00:17:04.990
the environmental factors that impacted that.
00:17:05.069 --> 00:17:07.869
So was it a leader that made you feel more empowered
00:17:07.869 --> 00:17:12.029
to do that or was it, you know, self -confidence
00:17:12.029 --> 00:17:15.430
or what was that? So I really kind of went into.
00:17:16.490 --> 00:17:20.369
what are the factors that make people feel comfortable
00:17:20.369 --> 00:17:24.369
in challenging things or looking to do things
00:17:24.369 --> 00:17:26.809
better? And it was really interesting because
00:17:26.809 --> 00:17:30.549
a lot of the people that I interviewed had been
00:17:30.549 --> 00:17:32.289
in the organisation for a really long time and
00:17:32.289 --> 00:17:36.390
they'd been in different environments where they
00:17:36.390 --> 00:17:39.529
had different subcultures and things and they
00:17:39.529 --> 00:17:42.309
could clearly articulate the difference between...
00:17:42.509 --> 00:17:45.109
environments that they felt that they could challenge
00:17:45.109 --> 00:17:47.609
things and environments where they didn't feel
00:17:47.609 --> 00:17:50.109
comfortable doing that. And leadership played
00:17:50.109 --> 00:17:53.630
a big role in that, but also peer behavior. So
00:17:53.630 --> 00:17:58.849
how peers would react to that. That is one of
00:17:58.849 --> 00:18:00.349
the questions that I wanted to ask you because
00:18:00.349 --> 00:18:02.410
I'm thinking this whole time that, well, from
00:18:02.410 --> 00:18:04.369
the Maverick side of things, this all sounds
00:18:04.369 --> 00:18:06.470
good. I'm also thinking about the people who
00:18:06.470 --> 00:18:10.230
are being questioned. What can happen there?
00:18:10.329 --> 00:18:13.079
Could they become defensive? what kind of reactions
00:18:13.079 --> 00:18:17.000
did you see yeah absolutely and in those kind
00:18:17.000 --> 00:18:19.480
of really systemic environments where change
00:18:19.480 --> 00:18:21.779
doesn't happen very frequently and people get
00:18:21.779 --> 00:18:24.400
very comfortable in their spaces they were reacting
00:18:24.400 --> 00:18:30.259
quite you know um with um you know oh you know
00:18:30.259 --> 00:18:35.859
that's never gonna work and um one person described
00:18:35.859 --> 00:18:38.940
when they were trying to make change as you know
00:18:38.940 --> 00:18:43.190
um They described feeling really lonely because
00:18:43.190 --> 00:18:46.750
of the social isolation. And another person described
00:18:46.750 --> 00:18:48.630
tall poppy syndrome where they just try and bring
00:18:48.630 --> 00:18:52.289
you down. So there was a lot of really negative
00:18:52.289 --> 00:18:54.890
peer behavior that impacted people's willingness
00:18:54.890 --> 00:19:01.670
to challenge. And so that was one of the biggest
00:19:01.670 --> 00:19:04.549
factors. There was also a lot of, as you can
00:19:04.549 --> 00:19:06.549
imagine, in public sector environments, they're
00:19:06.549 --> 00:19:11.569
political. On top of that, they've got if you
00:19:11.569 --> 00:19:15.289
rock the boat, you might not get promoted. And
00:19:15.289 --> 00:19:17.589
so I found particularly with the middle management
00:19:17.589 --> 00:19:21.210
sector, the middle management layer, they were
00:19:21.210 --> 00:19:23.329
really, really cautious not to rock the boat
00:19:23.329 --> 00:19:25.470
because it really could impact their career.
00:19:25.549 --> 00:19:27.329
They may not be able to go anywhere post that
00:19:27.329 --> 00:19:31.650
if they made the wrong move. And so what you
00:19:31.650 --> 00:19:35.069
see from that is the impact is risk aversion.
00:19:36.029 --> 00:19:38.470
Like chronic risk aversion where nobody wants
00:19:38.470 --> 00:19:40.470
to ask any questions, nobody wants to do anything
00:19:40.470 --> 00:19:43.890
outside of the box because if it doesn't turn
00:19:43.890 --> 00:19:47.289
out right, if somebody doesn't like it, it's
00:19:47.289 --> 00:19:48.930
all going to come down, it's going to come back
00:19:48.930 --> 00:19:52.210
to you, and you won't get promoted. And then
00:19:52.210 --> 00:19:55.450
that's your reputation. In the public sector,
00:19:55.589 --> 00:20:00.109
it's deceptively a small community, for lack
00:20:00.109 --> 00:20:02.970
of a better word, even if you work in – my wife
00:20:02.970 --> 00:20:06.880
used to work in government. And she knew people
00:20:06.880 --> 00:20:08.640
in different departments and functions across
00:20:08.640 --> 00:20:11.480
different levels. And people move jobs, but they
00:20:11.480 --> 00:20:13.640
tend to stay within government. And so they all
00:20:13.640 --> 00:20:15.220
sort of know each other. It's this funny thing
00:20:15.220 --> 00:20:17.380
where it's this huge organization, but everyone
00:20:17.380 --> 00:20:19.900
seems to know like the one or two degrees connected
00:20:19.900 --> 00:20:23.900
to everyone else. And so, yeah, that can be,
00:20:23.940 --> 00:20:26.940
that could really be a problem for you if you
00:20:26.940 --> 00:20:28.900
wanted to stay in that sector. Yeah, absolutely.
00:20:29.660 --> 00:20:35.329
And so, you know, someone, one of the, interviewees
00:20:35.329 --> 00:20:37.730
commented that you know some bosses you make
00:20:37.730 --> 00:20:41.309
a mistake and you're dead to them yeah so and
00:20:41.309 --> 00:20:43.190
that costs you opportunities you won't be assigned
00:20:43.190 --> 00:20:46.490
projects and yeah you won't be picked to go to
00:20:46.490 --> 00:20:50.089
the next conference yeah yeah huge impacts huge
00:20:50.089 --> 00:20:53.869
impacts so you know the kind of peer and leadership
00:20:53.869 --> 00:20:56.490
support environment makes a big difference about
00:20:56.490 --> 00:20:59.630
whether or not people are willing to pursue new
00:20:59.630 --> 00:21:04.420
ideas to look at anything innovative and to challenge
00:21:04.420 --> 00:21:08.079
the status quo. So without supportive environments
00:21:08.079 --> 00:21:11.740
that actually facilitate people to question things
00:21:11.740 --> 00:21:14.660
without negative impacts, you're just not going
00:21:14.660 --> 00:21:17.819
to see those behaviors. Yeah. How do we go about
00:21:17.819 --> 00:21:20.839
creating those kind of environments then? Well,
00:21:20.880 --> 00:21:23.900
I think one of the things is, and one of the
00:21:23.900 --> 00:21:26.160
quotes that I really liked is, giving you enough
00:21:26.160 --> 00:21:29.980
rope to... to push the boundaries a little bit
00:21:29.980 --> 00:21:32.380
but not enough to hang yourself you know autonomy
00:21:32.380 --> 00:21:35.839
is important you need to be feeling empowered
00:21:35.839 --> 00:21:40.220
to actually to test and if you don't feel empowered
00:21:40.220 --> 00:21:43.700
to test and to learn and to adjust then you're
00:21:43.700 --> 00:21:48.119
kind of just stagnating right um and so the other
00:21:48.119 --> 00:21:51.220
thing is just having somebody, just having somebody
00:21:51.220 --> 00:21:53.640
who will help you. Yeah. And it doesn't need
00:21:53.640 --> 00:21:56.240
to be the entire workforce. It doesn't need to
00:21:56.240 --> 00:21:58.339
be everybody's on your side. But if there's just
00:21:58.339 --> 00:22:01.140
one person who's willing to say, hey, you know
00:22:01.140 --> 00:22:03.759
what? This could be interesting. Why don't we
00:22:03.759 --> 00:22:06.200
have a look at it? Yeah. That can make the world
00:22:06.200 --> 00:22:08.759
of difference. Yeah, absolutely. Everybody wins.
00:22:09.019 --> 00:22:12.539
Yeah, that's right. That's right. And so one
00:22:12.539 --> 00:22:14.819
of my participants talked about the Maverick
00:22:14.819 --> 00:22:18.140
Enabler. Okay. I like the sound of that. Yeah,
00:22:18.180 --> 00:22:20.279
yeah. So someone who isn't a maverick themselves
00:22:20.279 --> 00:22:24.720
but is willing to support the maverick and help
00:22:24.720 --> 00:22:28.980
them kind of find out what the boundaries are
00:22:28.980 --> 00:22:32.619
and what the issues are and support them in challenging
00:22:32.619 --> 00:22:35.579
them. And so whilst they wouldn't put their own
00:22:35.579 --> 00:22:37.880
head out there, they're willing to kind of be
00:22:37.880 --> 00:22:40.279
in the background and support them to do what
00:22:40.279 --> 00:22:42.700
they need to do. And I think... those people
00:22:42.700 --> 00:22:44.819
are more important than what you would imagine
00:22:44.819 --> 00:22:47.940
because they can just give someone the confidence
00:22:47.940 --> 00:22:49.420
to go, you know what, you're not in this alone.
00:22:50.140 --> 00:22:53.279
And, you know, as I said before about that, you
00:22:53.279 --> 00:22:55.299
know, when there's not a supportive environment
00:22:55.299 --> 00:22:58.319
and the social isolation that goes with pushing
00:22:58.319 --> 00:22:59.980
the boundaries in an environment that's hostile,
00:23:00.220 --> 00:23:04.000
you know, just having someone by your side to
00:23:04.000 --> 00:23:07.619
say, hey, this is okay, you know, we'll give
00:23:07.619 --> 00:23:10.579
it a go. makes all the difference. Yeah, absolutely.
00:23:10.960 --> 00:23:13.519
And I wonder if some of that comes back to personality
00:23:13.519 --> 00:23:15.980
differences, that maybe mavericks would be more
00:23:15.980 --> 00:23:19.200
likely to be extroverted, maybe a maverick enabler
00:23:19.200 --> 00:23:21.640
might be more likely to be introverted in kind
00:23:21.640 --> 00:23:24.160
of the way people move within organizations.
00:23:25.119 --> 00:23:27.720
So, you know, there's some research that talks
00:23:27.720 --> 00:23:33.799
about personality and mavericks. The way that
00:23:33.799 --> 00:23:37.109
I look at it is that You can be a maverick in
00:23:37.109 --> 00:23:39.549
one workplace and you can not be considered a
00:23:39.549 --> 00:23:41.670
maverick in another. So if you're an outgoing
00:23:41.670 --> 00:23:43.589
person or you're a person who challenges the
00:23:43.589 --> 00:23:46.589
status quo and you're creative and politically
00:23:46.589 --> 00:23:48.549
savvy and you're working for a company like Google,
00:23:48.710 --> 00:23:49.849
you're not going to stand out and you're not
00:23:49.849 --> 00:23:51.210
going to be considered a maverick. You're just
00:23:51.210 --> 00:23:53.630
going to be considered one of the team. If you
00:23:53.630 --> 00:23:55.390
do that in a really traditional organization
00:23:55.390 --> 00:23:59.529
that doesn't have creative people, that isn't
00:23:59.529 --> 00:24:03.559
looking at reflective learning. approaches to
00:24:03.559 --> 00:24:05.859
how they do business, then you're going to be
00:24:05.859 --> 00:24:08.599
seen as a maverick. So context matters, right?
00:24:08.740 --> 00:24:11.420
Yeah, absolutely. And so that shapes our perceptions
00:24:11.420 --> 00:24:15.119
of who people are. And then in hand, we kind
00:24:15.119 --> 00:24:19.519
of, as a result of the bucket you get put in
00:24:19.519 --> 00:24:22.339
that organization, that kind of shapes what we
00:24:22.339 --> 00:24:24.920
feel is and isn't acceptable in that environment.
00:24:25.220 --> 00:24:29.799
So the environments that we're in can... change
00:24:29.799 --> 00:24:32.359
the way we're viewed and so in one environment
00:24:32.359 --> 00:24:34.759
we might be seen as a disruptor and in another
00:24:34.759 --> 00:24:36.900
environment we might just be seen as you know
00:24:36.900 --> 00:24:39.480
fairly standard meeting expectations yeah meeting
00:24:39.480 --> 00:24:44.180
expectations so um yeah i think you know there
00:24:44.180 --> 00:24:45.539
are definitely people that are more outgoing
00:24:45.539 --> 00:24:48.240
and more politically savvy and and have those
00:24:48.240 --> 00:24:54.490
um those um those personality traits but There
00:24:54.490 --> 00:24:58.630
are environments that facilitate those dispositions
00:24:58.630 --> 00:25:04.269
more easily than others. So in organizations
00:25:04.269 --> 00:25:07.589
where like if we talk about someone like 3M where
00:25:07.589 --> 00:25:09.910
they have like brainstorming meetings and they
00:25:09.910 --> 00:25:13.029
are reflective in the way that they approach
00:25:13.029 --> 00:25:16.950
developing new products and things like that.
00:25:17.690 --> 00:25:19.789
A maverick isn't going to be seen as a maverick.
00:25:19.890 --> 00:25:23.289
They're just going to be. And those kind of learning
00:25:23.289 --> 00:25:28.309
and reflective processes are just how they do
00:25:28.309 --> 00:25:32.150
business. Whereas if you go into a public sector
00:25:32.150 --> 00:25:34.569
organization where nobody's really reflecting
00:25:34.569 --> 00:25:37.609
on the processes and nobody's looking at creative
00:25:37.609 --> 00:25:39.910
ways of doing things, nobody's trying to create,
00:25:40.269 --> 00:25:43.210
then certainly you're going to be seen as a bit
00:25:43.210 --> 00:25:46.369
different. I'm imagining someone who works at
00:25:46.369 --> 00:25:48.500
Google. and is used to everybody thinking this
00:25:48.500 --> 00:25:50.799
way, who then moves into a public sector job.
00:25:51.059 --> 00:25:54.400
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Crazy. Just like, why
00:25:54.400 --> 00:25:57.019
is no one asking these questions? We're just
00:25:57.019 --> 00:25:58.720
doing this the way we've always done it? Okay.
00:26:00.240 --> 00:26:02.599
That can be very jarring. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
00:26:02.900 --> 00:26:07.180
So I think, you know, and the type of people
00:26:07.180 --> 00:26:09.099
that go into public sector are probably, you
00:26:09.099 --> 00:26:13.779
know, you get a bit of bias in the kind of personalities
00:26:13.779 --> 00:26:16.680
you're getting in that. And, of course, those
00:26:16.680 --> 00:26:19.500
environmental factors shape what you will and
00:26:19.500 --> 00:26:22.319
won't do and what's considered socially acceptable
00:26:22.319 --> 00:26:24.980
behavior in that environment. And over time,
00:26:25.039 --> 00:26:28.839
that shapes who you are. What you're describing
00:26:28.839 --> 00:26:31.599
to me and maybe to people listening sounds like
00:26:31.599 --> 00:26:34.960
a big game. Yes. And there are people playing
00:26:34.960 --> 00:26:38.859
different avatars within the game and there are
00:26:38.859 --> 00:26:43.190
rules depending on what board you have. this
00:26:43.190 --> 00:26:44.970
is the Google board and this is the government
00:26:44.970 --> 00:26:47.970
board, depending on which one you're playing
00:26:47.970 --> 00:26:51.750
with has different rules. And it's, for me as
00:26:51.750 --> 00:26:55.430
an introvert, it's too much. I wouldn't, I'm
00:26:55.430 --> 00:27:00.119
uncomfortable having to. Read the room. Yeah.
00:27:00.519 --> 00:27:03.160
Well, I mean, it, it like, it depends on the
00:27:03.160 --> 00:27:05.359
field of play you're in. Right. So if you've
00:27:05.359 --> 00:27:07.779
got, you know, if, if you're a natural basketball
00:27:07.779 --> 00:27:11.220
player, you're super tall and you can, you can
00:27:11.220 --> 00:27:13.740
slam dunk, then you're going to be really valuable
00:27:13.740 --> 00:27:16.000
and you're going to be really useful on a basketball
00:27:16.000 --> 00:27:19.130
court. But, you know, you may not be so good
00:27:19.130 --> 00:27:22.450
in a gymnastic stadium. What is valuable in one
00:27:22.450 --> 00:27:24.509
field of play and what's considered important
00:27:24.509 --> 00:27:27.769
is very different. And as you would imagine,
00:27:27.890 --> 00:27:30.490
so are the rules. And so that definitely shapes
00:27:30.490 --> 00:27:33.369
the way that we approach different things and
00:27:33.369 --> 00:27:39.210
the way that we kind of adjust ourselves to fit
00:27:39.210 --> 00:27:42.329
those fields. Do you think that Mavericks...
00:27:42.700 --> 00:27:45.359
see themselves as mavericks like they are aware
00:27:45.359 --> 00:27:47.339
that they are playing this role within the organization
00:27:47.339 --> 00:27:49.759
or is this just the way they are no i don't i
00:27:49.759 --> 00:27:52.900
don't think they always think they are um although
00:27:52.900 --> 00:27:55.460
i did have one that was obviously a maverick
00:27:55.460 --> 00:27:59.359
and uh knew full well that they were a maverick
00:27:59.359 --> 00:28:05.359
and i loved that about them um but most mavericks
00:28:05.359 --> 00:28:08.000
are kind of like well you know maybe i did challenge
00:28:08.000 --> 00:28:11.000
a little bit but There was good reason for it.
00:28:11.079 --> 00:28:13.640
And it's always justifying their disruptive behavior
00:28:13.640 --> 00:28:15.680
because, oh, well, I did it for this reason.
00:28:15.880 --> 00:28:18.099
And so they're not seeing themselves as disruptive.
00:28:18.339 --> 00:28:20.940
They're just like saying, well, I'm just trying
00:28:20.940 --> 00:28:22.440
to help the organization. I just want to see
00:28:22.440 --> 00:28:25.019
it do better. And, you know, I think that's the
00:28:25.019 --> 00:28:27.420
part of Mavericks that I love. Yeah. Yeah, that's
00:28:27.420 --> 00:28:29.700
right. They're in it for the right reasons. Yeah.
00:28:29.759 --> 00:28:32.519
And they're not challenging things because they
00:28:32.519 --> 00:28:33.859
want to get promoted or they want to be seen
00:28:33.859 --> 00:28:36.099
as, you know, some kind of superhero. They're
00:28:36.099 --> 00:28:38.119
doing it because they just think it's the right
00:28:38.119 --> 00:28:41.710
thing to do. I'd be interested to know, because
00:28:41.710 --> 00:28:43.529
you're a very ambitious person. We talked a bit
00:28:43.529 --> 00:28:45.569
before we started recording about different things
00:28:45.569 --> 00:28:47.069
happening in your life, even as you're doing
00:28:47.069 --> 00:28:48.910
the PhD. And you've alluded to a couple of them
00:28:48.910 --> 00:28:52.170
in the conversation so far. But do you see yourself
00:28:52.170 --> 00:28:54.289
as a maverick in the way that you approach your
00:28:54.289 --> 00:28:59.589
life and work? I don't. But as I said earlier,
00:28:59.609 --> 00:29:01.509
most mavericks don't actually acknowledge their
00:29:01.509 --> 00:29:05.569
own maverickism. So, no, I wouldn't see myself
00:29:05.569 --> 00:29:08.829
as a maverick. But again, like I do. One of the
00:29:08.829 --> 00:29:10.630
most important things for my research is that
00:29:10.630 --> 00:29:15.710
it has an impact. I see ambition as really important.
00:29:17.230 --> 00:29:20.190
I have two children and both of them are girls
00:29:20.190 --> 00:29:23.890
and I want to see that I want to show them that
00:29:23.890 --> 00:29:25.970
just because you have kids doesn't mean your
00:29:25.970 --> 00:29:28.609
career is over and I want to show them that I'm
00:29:28.609 --> 00:29:31.450
driven and I want to make an impact in what I
00:29:31.450 --> 00:29:36.170
do. My research is... part of that you know i
00:29:36.170 --> 00:29:38.509
do a lot of different things to make an impact
00:29:38.509 --> 00:29:42.109
in my community and in the things that i do and
00:29:42.109 --> 00:29:45.410
you you can see that in the fact you know i i'm
00:29:45.410 --> 00:29:47.549
an ex -defense person so the sense of service
00:29:47.549 --> 00:29:50.769
to the community is like it is embedded in who
00:29:50.769 --> 00:29:54.009
i am I volunteer for a not -for -profit that
00:29:54.009 --> 00:29:57.650
helps families. So I sell on the board for a
00:29:57.650 --> 00:30:00.329
not -for -profit that supports families in need.
00:30:00.529 --> 00:30:04.630
And, you know, that is just, you know, it's part
00:30:04.630 --> 00:30:08.809
of that sense of service for me. But incredibly
00:30:08.809 --> 00:30:11.930
important to me is not losing that ambition,
00:30:12.089 --> 00:30:16.029
not losing that sight of, you know, to build
00:30:16.029 --> 00:30:17.990
resilience in your life you need more than one
00:30:17.990 --> 00:30:21.900
thing. Well, I need more than one thing. And
00:30:21.900 --> 00:30:25.599
I think, you know, the PhD journey is hard, right?
00:30:26.079 --> 00:30:31.519
But for me, it has been amazing. Like I am a
00:30:31.519 --> 00:30:35.099
lifelong learner, you know, like learning is
00:30:35.099 --> 00:30:37.940
important to me. And ultimately, even my PhD
00:30:37.940 --> 00:30:42.019
is about helping organizations to learn. And
00:30:42.019 --> 00:30:44.299
I want to kind of instill that in my children
00:30:44.299 --> 00:30:47.589
as well. that learning is a big important factor
00:30:47.589 --> 00:30:50.670
in everything that you do. And curiosity, we
00:30:50.670 --> 00:30:53.089
talked a little bit about curiosity before we
00:30:53.089 --> 00:30:58.089
started as well. And I think having that, it
00:30:58.089 --> 00:31:00.210
kind of drives a little bit of ambition, even
00:31:00.210 --> 00:31:03.509
if you don't really mean it to. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
00:31:04.829 --> 00:31:08.740
And so, you know. I feel like I haven't made
00:31:08.740 --> 00:31:12.720
the impact yet that I want to make. I still want
00:31:12.720 --> 00:31:18.240
to be supporting and helping people. I haven't
00:31:18.240 --> 00:31:19.920
kind of worked out how I'm going to do that yet,
00:31:19.940 --> 00:31:26.230
but I will continue to strive to improve. to
00:31:26.230 --> 00:31:29.289
be better every day and maybe that's incrementally
00:31:29.289 --> 00:31:32.069
and you know in everything i do whether that's
00:31:32.069 --> 00:31:34.750
how much i lift when i go weightlifting or whether
00:31:34.750 --> 00:31:37.390
that's the way i approach parenting or whether
00:31:37.390 --> 00:31:41.289
that's in um you know making my thesis just that
00:31:41.289 --> 00:31:43.269
little bit better before submission you know
00:31:43.269 --> 00:31:46.670
it i really do have that ambition to just be
00:31:46.670 --> 00:31:53.559
better and i think that as a mother You know,
00:31:53.559 --> 00:31:56.539
that's really important because when you become
00:31:56.539 --> 00:31:59.759
a mother, you really do lose yourself a little
00:31:59.759 --> 00:32:03.059
bit. Your sense of identity is kind of all in
00:32:03.059 --> 00:32:06.299
turmoil because you had a previous identity that
00:32:06.299 --> 00:32:08.140
was about you and the things that you do and
00:32:08.140 --> 00:32:10.240
about your career and all of these things. And
00:32:10.240 --> 00:32:12.700
then all of a sudden, you know, your entire life
00:32:12.700 --> 00:32:15.279
is just about keeping another person alive. Yeah.
00:32:15.859 --> 00:32:19.640
Suddenly new stakeholders. Yeah. And they demand
00:32:19.640 --> 00:32:22.660
all of your time. And then you kind of like,
00:32:22.680 --> 00:32:24.720
you know, as I said, I was super ambitious and
00:32:24.720 --> 00:32:28.680
I was like, you know, I have ambitions to be
00:32:28.680 --> 00:32:31.599
some great leader in an organization and make
00:32:31.599 --> 00:32:34.940
these huge impacts. And, you know, and I'm like,
00:32:35.000 --> 00:32:37.660
I can't do that while I have children because
00:32:37.660 --> 00:32:41.900
they demand so much of my time. So how do I pursue
00:32:41.900 --> 00:32:44.369
something that. He's still making an impact,
00:32:44.490 --> 00:32:47.289
but he's flexible and I can do in my own time.
00:32:47.349 --> 00:32:50.750
And when I need to, I can go pick up my sick
00:32:50.750 --> 00:32:54.329
kids and all those things. So, you know, those
00:32:54.329 --> 00:32:57.009
kind of things overlapped a little bit in, you
00:32:57.009 --> 00:32:59.829
know, fortuitous timing in that this big problem
00:32:59.829 --> 00:33:02.809
of my PhD appeared to me at the same time I had
00:33:02.809 --> 00:33:07.609
my second child. So at the time I had been consulting
00:33:07.609 --> 00:33:10.089
for a big four and then doing a defence contract
00:33:10.089 --> 00:33:15.250
over COVID. I was actually on maternity leave
00:33:15.250 --> 00:33:18.210
when they asked me to do my contract. Right.
00:33:18.430 --> 00:33:22.190
So, you know, I had to get – they were very flexible
00:33:22.190 --> 00:33:26.589
and kind of let me do things a bit differently
00:33:26.589 --> 00:33:28.349
because, you know, I had a toddler and a baby
00:33:28.349 --> 00:33:31.130
and I did this contract and throughout the contract
00:33:31.130 --> 00:33:34.990
that's when this idea came to me about the PhD
00:33:34.990 --> 00:33:38.170
and how would I solve those big complex problems.
00:33:38.609 --> 00:33:41.819
And I was like, well, actually – you know, we
00:33:41.819 --> 00:33:43.900
were talking about this as well, is Australia
00:33:43.900 --> 00:33:47.480
has a really great structure in place to support
00:33:47.480 --> 00:33:51.920
PhD students in terms of scholarships. And, you
00:33:51.920 --> 00:33:56.380
know, I was reading about maverickism and I called
00:33:56.380 --> 00:33:59.039
up my now supervisor and I had conversations
00:33:59.039 --> 00:34:01.599
with her and, you know, I really clicked with
00:34:01.599 --> 00:34:03.799
her as well. And I felt like if I'm going to
00:34:03.799 --> 00:34:06.500
go on this journey, I feel like. person is the
00:34:06.500 --> 00:34:09.320
right person to go on the journey with me I have
00:34:09.320 --> 00:34:13.219
a lot of respect for her and I feel like you
00:34:13.219 --> 00:34:16.900
know both both of my supervisors are amazingly
00:34:16.900 --> 00:34:19.980
supportive and I feel like they have made this
00:34:19.980 --> 00:34:25.539
journey so so special because you know they both
00:34:25.539 --> 00:34:29.199
have consulting backgrounds like they they both
00:34:29.199 --> 00:34:34.219
have a career before academia And so they understand
00:34:34.219 --> 00:34:38.920
my drivers. They understand that I'm not an academic
00:34:38.920 --> 00:34:41.880
and I'm kind of more of a practitioner and I'm
00:34:41.880 --> 00:34:44.559
doing this because I want to see organizations
00:34:44.559 --> 00:34:48.199
do better. And they get that. And they're also,
00:34:48.440 --> 00:34:52.219
you know, they kind of just understand me and
00:34:52.219 --> 00:34:55.420
have been incredible support for me. So I think
00:34:55.420 --> 00:34:59.179
that's made a big factor. So, you know, when
00:34:59.179 --> 00:35:01.989
people are asking me, How do I do all these things?
00:35:02.610 --> 00:35:05.349
I feel like, you know, it's like going back to
00:35:05.349 --> 00:35:07.789
that workplace. If you've got somebody supporting
00:35:07.789 --> 00:35:10.449
you through that journey, it makes all the difference.
00:35:10.769 --> 00:35:15.289
Yeah, yeah. It really does. I went about my PhD
00:35:15.289 --> 00:35:17.829
the same way. And I would even go so far as to
00:35:17.829 --> 00:35:21.849
say I was less interested in doing an actual
00:35:21.849 --> 00:35:24.969
PhD and more so interested in working with the
00:35:24.969 --> 00:35:27.250
professor who ended up being my supervisor. That
00:35:27.250 --> 00:35:29.469
was the initial interest that I had was just.
00:35:30.269 --> 00:35:33.250
I met him. He was teaching coursework in my master's.
00:35:33.929 --> 00:35:35.969
And I was just curious about his research. And
00:35:35.969 --> 00:35:38.449
we just had a beer one day. And I was sort of
00:35:38.449 --> 00:35:39.710
saying, like, you know, I was sort of thinking
00:35:39.710 --> 00:35:41.670
about doing some research or maybe even a PhD.
00:35:41.909 --> 00:35:43.610
And he walked me through what that would look
00:35:43.610 --> 00:35:45.150
like. And in the end, he talked me into it in
00:35:45.150 --> 00:35:47.869
about five minutes. But it very much started
00:35:47.869 --> 00:35:50.889
with, I want to work with you. And what shape
00:35:50.889 --> 00:35:53.170
that takes, I don't even really care. But that
00:35:53.170 --> 00:35:56.690
was my starting point. And I think that means
00:35:56.690 --> 00:36:01.900
that actually... I think helps facilitate striking
00:36:01.900 --> 00:36:03.780
that balance that you're describing. Because
00:36:03.780 --> 00:36:07.380
there's a difference between, I want to sit on
00:36:07.380 --> 00:36:10.320
a board. I want to be a good mother. I want to
00:36:10.320 --> 00:36:12.820
also do a PhD. I want to run this business with
00:36:12.820 --> 00:36:16.579
my partner. And knowing that you want to do these
00:36:16.579 --> 00:36:20.000
things, if not also other things, and then thinking,
00:36:20.159 --> 00:36:23.579
how can they play with each other? And how can
00:36:23.579 --> 00:36:27.159
I have it both ways in some instances? And that
00:36:27.159 --> 00:36:31.039
becomes about, I think, doing it the right way
00:36:31.039 --> 00:36:34.099
for want of a better way of describing it. And
00:36:34.099 --> 00:36:35.579
that's not to suggest other people were doing
00:36:35.579 --> 00:36:37.880
it the wrong way, but the right way for you,
00:36:38.000 --> 00:36:41.420
where if you are with supervisors who are cut
00:36:41.420 --> 00:36:44.179
from the same cloth, share your worldview, your
00:36:44.179 --> 00:36:47.300
perspective, your ambitions, then you're not
00:36:47.300 --> 00:36:49.760
swimming against the current, which would make
00:36:49.760 --> 00:36:53.719
it just that much more difficult. Yeah, I really
00:36:53.719 --> 00:36:56.659
think it is that the right way for you. Yeah.
00:36:56.860 --> 00:36:59.949
And having something that, reflects who you are
00:36:59.949 --> 00:37:02.889
and and what is important to you and what your
00:37:02.889 --> 00:37:07.030
priorities are um and i i feel like i've had
00:37:07.030 --> 00:37:10.429
you know the best team that have my interests
00:37:10.429 --> 00:37:13.949
at heart and have been patient with me and um
00:37:13.949 --> 00:37:17.829
you know i feel like i don't know whether it
00:37:17.829 --> 00:37:19.670
would be the same journey again with somebody
00:37:19.670 --> 00:37:22.309
else you know i think that's something special
00:37:22.309 --> 00:37:26.750
right like um but yeah the the whole journey
00:37:26.750 --> 00:37:31.260
has been um interesting and all of these different
00:37:31.260 --> 00:37:35.139
things that i do although they seem very disparate
00:37:35.139 --> 00:37:38.860
they all contribute something to having an interesting
00:37:38.860 --> 00:37:43.300
perspective um you know like my partner for example
00:37:43.300 --> 00:37:46.719
being an architect just like and our architecture
00:37:46.719 --> 00:37:50.119
company he always asks me what i think of his
00:37:50.119 --> 00:37:55.039
designs And I'm often, you know, I'm a very black
00:37:55.039 --> 00:37:57.099
and white person, so I'm very blunt. If I don't
00:37:57.099 --> 00:38:01.440
like it, it's very, I don't like this. And, you
00:38:01.440 --> 00:38:04.039
know, he never takes that personally. It is,
00:38:04.059 --> 00:38:07.079
okay, so what don't you like about this? And
00:38:07.079 --> 00:38:09.119
we have these really fascinating conversations
00:38:09.119 --> 00:38:13.420
about how to move forward in what he's doing.
00:38:13.559 --> 00:38:17.199
And even though I'm not an architect, but having
00:38:17.199 --> 00:38:20.280
those views and working together about... well,
00:38:20.300 --> 00:38:23.300
why don't you like this? And I'm a very practical
00:38:23.300 --> 00:38:25.519
person and sometimes it's just about practical
00:38:25.519 --> 00:38:28.280
sense and others it's about it's overly complex
00:38:28.280 --> 00:38:33.920
or whatever. But it was something that, as I
00:38:33.920 --> 00:38:38.880
said, really highlighted to me the lack of reflective
00:38:38.880 --> 00:38:42.719
practice and learning approaches in other organisations
00:38:42.719 --> 00:38:46.239
because it was so it doesn't matter. What we
00:38:46.239 --> 00:38:49.840
need to do is understand. what is somebody else's
00:38:49.840 --> 00:38:52.300
opinion and why do they come from that perspective
00:38:52.300 --> 00:38:55.159
and, you know, taking on different bits of information
00:38:55.159 --> 00:38:57.619
and going, okay, so is this a problem or is it
00:38:57.619 --> 00:39:01.360
not a problem? Yeah. And so, you know, I've really
00:39:01.360 --> 00:39:04.500
loved that process and it's such, you know, it's
00:39:04.500 --> 00:39:10.289
been a big learning experience for me. And it's
00:39:10.289 --> 00:39:14.389
fed part of my PhD research and it's fed a whole
00:39:14.389 --> 00:39:16.789
lot of different ideas in the way that I do things.
00:39:17.030 --> 00:39:19.849
Yeah. That's kind of the reason that I wanted
00:39:19.849 --> 00:39:22.829
to start this podcast is because inevitably there
00:39:22.829 --> 00:39:26.590
are elements of your PhD journey that will never
00:39:26.590 --> 00:39:28.710
go into your thesis. It's not going to be explicitly
00:39:28.710 --> 00:39:32.989
written on the page that the curiosity generated
00:39:32.989 --> 00:39:41.349
by your partnership. fed into XYZ in your experimental
00:39:41.349 --> 00:39:43.230
design or your interpretation of your findings
00:39:43.230 --> 00:39:44.750
or something like that, but you know that it
00:39:44.750 --> 00:39:49.349
did. And I find those stories fascinating because
00:39:49.349 --> 00:39:52.030
even, of course, you're describing reflecting
00:39:52.030 --> 00:39:56.590
upon practice, but in so doing, you're reflecting
00:39:56.590 --> 00:40:00.210
upon your practice. And so you're obviously taking
00:40:00.210 --> 00:40:03.440
that mindset into everything that you do and
00:40:03.440 --> 00:40:06.420
uh it sounds like i would say that you've you've
00:40:06.420 --> 00:40:08.360
been lucky but that's the wrong word you you've
00:40:08.360 --> 00:40:11.619
been fortunate to be able to build a network
00:40:11.619 --> 00:40:14.559
a supportive network of people who are the same
00:40:14.559 --> 00:40:18.559
and want to behave that way and it keeps you
00:40:18.559 --> 00:40:20.940
all moving forward which also of course in obvious
00:40:20.940 --> 00:40:23.019
ways connects to the research that you've done
00:40:23.019 --> 00:40:26.420
uh yeah i think it's you were you were speaking
00:40:26.420 --> 00:40:31.199
before about constantly being ambitious and wanting
00:40:31.199 --> 00:40:35.519
to push and be the best. And I think that you're
00:40:35.519 --> 00:40:37.179
near it because you're near the end of the PhD.
00:40:37.340 --> 00:40:39.579
So you're very close to a point where I think
00:40:39.579 --> 00:40:42.559
everybody gets to where you finally hit send
00:40:42.559 --> 00:40:45.900
and the thesis goes away to your examiners and
00:40:45.900 --> 00:40:49.940
you can't do anything. It's out there. And all
00:40:49.940 --> 00:40:53.219
you have is time while you're waiting for it
00:40:53.219 --> 00:40:55.199
to come back that you can't possibly be improving
00:40:55.199 --> 00:40:58.699
it. And so it forces you. to just sit with it
00:40:58.699 --> 00:41:03.039
and realize, wow, I did a thing. And that was
00:41:03.039 --> 00:41:07.079
a good thing that I did. And those moments are
00:41:07.079 --> 00:41:10.199
rare, but that one is forced upon you. And so
00:41:10.199 --> 00:41:13.059
it's coming. And I hope you enjoy it because
00:41:13.059 --> 00:41:16.760
it's very easy, I think, for ambitious people
00:41:16.760 --> 00:41:20.820
to feel like they're not going at the pace they
00:41:20.820 --> 00:41:24.300
want to go because they're constantly pushing
00:41:24.300 --> 00:41:27.070
the finish line out. And so you feel like maybe
00:41:27.070 --> 00:41:28.809
you're not getting there, but actually you're
00:41:28.809 --> 00:41:31.829
making so much progress in terms of the distance
00:41:31.829 --> 00:41:34.769
that you've covered. Yeah, actually, that is
00:41:34.769 --> 00:41:42.309
just incredibly accurate. You know, I was actually
00:41:42.309 --> 00:41:46.309
having a conversation just before we sat down
00:41:46.309 --> 00:41:49.349
about, you know, I had timeframes for myself.
00:41:49.929 --> 00:41:51.610
I mean, those timeframes are completely irrelevant
00:41:51.610 --> 00:41:54.909
and unnecessary, but I had timeframes for myself.
00:41:56.010 --> 00:41:59.630
And, you know, I'm starting to creep up on that
00:41:59.630 --> 00:42:03.909
timeframe. And, but there's also a level of perfectionism
00:42:03.909 --> 00:42:07.349
where I'm still editing and I'm still doing things.
00:42:07.449 --> 00:42:09.449
I mean, there's a limitation to how long I can
00:42:09.449 --> 00:42:13.670
do that. Eventually you must click send. Eventually
00:42:13.670 --> 00:42:15.829
I must click send and it's going to be very,
00:42:15.909 --> 00:42:20.380
very soon. So, you know, It's never going to
00:42:20.380 --> 00:42:26.159
feel 100%, but, you know, it's balancing between
00:42:26.159 --> 00:42:30.360
trying to get it to be everything that you hoped
00:42:30.360 --> 00:42:34.340
it would be and, you know, how long do I drag
00:42:34.340 --> 00:42:37.460
this out for? I'm actually like, you know, I'm
00:42:37.460 --> 00:42:41.000
kind of, I've only done about just over three,
00:42:41.019 --> 00:42:43.500
I'm creeping up to the three and a half year
00:42:43.500 --> 00:42:47.440
mark. So, you know, I haven't spent an incredible
00:42:47.440 --> 00:42:52.730
amount of time. But, yeah, I think once it's
00:42:52.730 --> 00:42:57.130
gone, it's going to be both a huge weight and
00:42:57.130 --> 00:43:01.849
a huge kind of – it's going to be hard because
00:43:01.849 --> 00:43:06.389
I've actually truly loved this experience. It
00:43:06.389 --> 00:43:11.369
is hard, yes, and, you know, we were talking
00:43:11.369 --> 00:43:14.940
about this earlier about – you know, you actually
00:43:14.940 --> 00:43:17.420
kind of feel more stupid doing a PhD because
00:43:17.420 --> 00:43:20.519
you spend so much time questioning yourself and
00:43:20.519 --> 00:43:23.059
questioning, you know, and learning different
00:43:23.059 --> 00:43:24.940
things. And the more you learn, the more you
00:43:24.940 --> 00:43:28.079
realize there's a lot you don't know. Yep. Yep,
00:43:28.119 --> 00:43:30.139
that's right. You keep finding new PhDs to do.
00:43:30.599 --> 00:43:33.800
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And there's like so much to
00:43:33.800 --> 00:43:35.920
it. And you're trying to put so much into your
00:43:35.920 --> 00:43:37.760
PhD because there's so many things that you want
00:43:37.760 --> 00:43:39.960
to talk about, but then you can't put them all
00:43:39.960 --> 00:43:42.579
in. And then you're kind of like, well. you know
00:43:42.579 --> 00:43:44.960
what do you cut out like it is these are all
00:43:44.960 --> 00:43:47.980
important and you know you kind of it becomes
00:43:47.980 --> 00:43:51.019
an elephant you're trying to eat the elephant
00:43:51.019 --> 00:43:53.619
but it's just massive and so you're trying to
00:43:53.619 --> 00:43:58.380
like go okay so what is really important um but
00:43:58.380 --> 00:44:01.559
you know that learning journey the yeah I feel
00:44:01.559 --> 00:44:03.840
really privileged to have been able to spend
00:44:03.840 --> 00:44:08.079
you know three and a half years just indulging
00:44:08.079 --> 00:44:12.449
in learning and in a project that you know, I
00:44:12.449 --> 00:44:16.170
just wanted to see things do better and just
00:44:16.170 --> 00:44:19.989
kind of work on something, work on a hard problem
00:44:19.989 --> 00:44:24.869
and create something that maybe, maybe it won't,
00:44:24.869 --> 00:44:27.269
but maybe it'll make an impact for somebody or
00:44:27.269 --> 00:44:31.349
maybe next time there's a crisis, you know, government
00:44:31.349 --> 00:44:33.409
organizations will be slightly more efficient
00:44:33.409 --> 00:44:36.150
because of the research, the years that I've
00:44:36.150 --> 00:44:39.590
spent trying to help them look at a different
00:44:39.590 --> 00:44:42.630
perspective. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. When I first
00:44:42.630 --> 00:44:45.110
started my PhD, one of the, it's interesting,
00:44:45.170 --> 00:44:47.230
right, that you, when you start, you look up
00:44:47.230 --> 00:44:48.829
to the people who are almost finishing and then
00:44:48.829 --> 00:44:50.489
eventually you become those people you're helping,
00:44:50.550 --> 00:44:53.110
the ones coming behind you. When I started, there
00:44:53.110 --> 00:44:56.849
was a guy, Jack Sugden, hi Jack, if you're listening,
00:44:56.989 --> 00:45:01.050
who described to me, he had literally drew a
00:45:01.050 --> 00:45:04.710
circle on a dead tree sheet of paper and said,
00:45:04.769 --> 00:45:06.869
you know, this is everything that we know. this
00:45:06.869 --> 00:45:09.510
circle. And then he just made like just the tiniest
00:45:09.510 --> 00:45:11.630
little pimple on the side of the circle and said,
00:45:11.730 --> 00:45:15.150
and this is you pushing that circle out. You
00:45:15.150 --> 00:45:17.449
know, in the grand scheme of things, it's very,
00:45:17.489 --> 00:45:20.449
very small, but you are pushing it out. And that's,
00:45:20.449 --> 00:45:23.010
I always try to keep that in mind of even if
00:45:23.010 --> 00:45:24.730
there's not an impact that I could point out
00:45:24.730 --> 00:45:28.389
and say, I did that. I did push our understanding
00:45:28.389 --> 00:45:31.050
out in some broad way. And that's a non -zero
00:45:31.050 --> 00:45:35.900
impact. And I think in your case, it's going
00:45:35.900 --> 00:45:38.579
to be something that you could see one day, even
00:45:38.579 --> 00:45:40.559
if it's just for yourself. And that would still
00:45:40.559 --> 00:45:43.480
be a monumental contribution if you're able to
00:45:43.480 --> 00:45:45.780
implement some of that in, for example, the work
00:45:45.780 --> 00:45:47.900
that you do with the board that you sit on to
00:45:47.900 --> 00:45:50.920
help improve people's lives. And then, you know,
00:45:50.960 --> 00:45:53.380
modeling for your daughters as well, whenever
00:45:53.380 --> 00:45:56.579
they go into whatever they end up doing one day
00:45:56.579 --> 00:46:03.179
to approach things the same way. in a way that's
00:46:03.179 --> 00:46:04.880
informed by the research that you've just done
00:46:04.880 --> 00:46:09.739
i think that that moves the needle yeah i think
00:46:09.739 --> 00:46:12.880
and it comes back down to like just still being
00:46:12.880 --> 00:46:15.800
ambitious like just you know the impact might
00:46:15.800 --> 00:46:19.179
not be as monumental as what you hoped but you're
00:46:19.179 --> 00:46:22.800
still moving forward yeah and um you know just
00:46:22.800 --> 00:46:25.920
having that learning mindset of okay you know
00:46:25.920 --> 00:46:28.340
i'm eating the elephant it's a big elephant i'm
00:46:28.340 --> 00:46:30.760
going to take it one step at a time and each
00:46:30.760 --> 00:46:34.739
tiny step i'm i'm moving forward and maybe it's
00:46:34.739 --> 00:46:38.360
not as rapidly as you know sometimes you'd like
00:46:38.360 --> 00:46:42.480
but you know you're moving forward and um i think
00:46:42.480 --> 00:46:44.719
sometimes you know when you're in the throes
00:46:44.719 --> 00:46:46.340
of parenting and we were talking about this earlier
00:46:46.340 --> 00:46:49.039
about um you know you have all these things whether
00:46:49.039 --> 00:46:53.559
it's daycare sicknesses or um you know just imagining
00:46:53.559 --> 00:46:57.019
you can stick to a timeline yeah any anything
00:46:57.019 --> 00:47:00.260
and Everything becomes more difficult, but that
00:47:00.260 --> 00:47:02.920
doesn't mean that opportunities end. That means
00:47:02.920 --> 00:47:07.440
that different opportunities open up and you
00:47:07.440 --> 00:47:10.639
can reimagine the way that you do things in how
00:47:10.639 --> 00:47:13.679
you approach your work and how you approach your
00:47:13.679 --> 00:47:18.500
impact. But for me, I think it was really important
00:47:18.500 --> 00:47:26.400
to still be me and to still be resilient and
00:47:26.400 --> 00:47:30.119
still be a learner. And keeping that kind of
00:47:30.119 --> 00:47:34.659
ambitious focus because I think like, you know,
00:47:34.659 --> 00:47:37.800
often you kind of lose yourself in maternity
00:47:37.800 --> 00:47:39.760
leave and then you're like, okay, so what am
00:47:39.760 --> 00:47:42.739
I now and am I capable of these things? You kind
00:47:42.739 --> 00:47:46.260
of go through this questioning process of who
00:47:46.260 --> 00:47:48.719
are you and what does that mean and what am I
00:47:48.719 --> 00:47:52.260
capable of now? And, you know, when you kind
00:47:52.260 --> 00:47:56.039
of really dig into it and it's a hard kind of...
00:47:56.980 --> 00:47:59.219
realization to come to you you're capable of
00:47:59.219 --> 00:48:04.039
a lot yeah yeah you're still capable of a lot
00:48:04.039 --> 00:48:08.159
and I think that's a it's a really hard time
00:48:08.159 --> 00:48:11.639
to not lose yourself when you're drowning in
00:48:11.639 --> 00:48:15.400
in kind of the throes of parenting and and and
00:48:15.400 --> 00:48:18.079
keep faith in yourself about like how you can
00:48:18.079 --> 00:48:20.519
contribute and even if that is for a period of
00:48:20.519 --> 00:48:23.280
time in a different way than you thought it was.
00:48:23.460 --> 00:48:25.460
I mean, look at the things that I've accomplished
00:48:25.460 --> 00:48:27.880
in the time that I've had, since I've had kids.
00:48:27.960 --> 00:48:31.440
Like, you know, yes, completely different to
00:48:31.440 --> 00:48:34.219
what I was doing, you know, prior to that. You
00:48:34.219 --> 00:48:37.159
know, I can't, you know, like I can't go for
00:48:37.159 --> 00:48:39.360
an 8K run every morning and do all the things
00:48:39.360 --> 00:48:44.239
that I did before. But I'm still, now I'm just
00:48:44.239 --> 00:48:46.980
doing different things and making different impacts
00:48:46.980 --> 00:48:51.039
and, you know, still. being resilient in a different
00:48:51.039 --> 00:48:54.500
way and you know i think that's a really kind
00:48:54.500 --> 00:48:57.639
of critical things for individuals and organizations
00:48:57.639 --> 00:49:01.960
is like kind of having those those layers of
00:49:01.960 --> 00:49:05.400
you know what creates our our resilience if one
00:49:05.400 --> 00:49:08.289
thing's going badly What else do you have? Do
00:49:08.289 --> 00:49:10.269
you have other things to support you and to keep
00:49:10.269 --> 00:49:13.929
you going? And I think it goes through a lot
00:49:13.929 --> 00:49:15.309
of different things. If you're still learning
00:49:15.309 --> 00:49:16.969
and you're still engaged in a lot of different
00:49:16.969 --> 00:49:18.969
spaces, if one thing's not going right, then
00:49:18.969 --> 00:49:21.789
at least you have something else. I think that's
00:49:21.789 --> 00:49:23.769
a really beautiful place to end that part of
00:49:23.769 --> 00:49:26.030
the conversation. And from where I'm sitting,
00:49:26.250 --> 00:49:28.250
we've only been speaking for a little over an
00:49:28.250 --> 00:49:30.570
hour, but it's been really interesting to hear
00:49:30.570 --> 00:49:34.210
your story. And for someone who's come into your
00:49:34.210 --> 00:49:39.460
journey cold, I have the perspective of, it really
00:49:39.460 --> 00:49:42.480
sounds like you've done something powerful here.
00:49:42.739 --> 00:49:45.400
And I do hope that you get those moments of reflection
00:49:45.400 --> 00:49:48.559
to appreciate. what you've done and how far you've
00:49:48.559 --> 00:49:50.639
come because I can see it from where I'm sitting.
00:49:50.739 --> 00:49:52.820
So I hope that you get a chance to see it too.
00:49:53.480 --> 00:49:56.260
But we'll move from here into the last two questions
00:49:56.260 --> 00:49:59.159
that I ask everyone. And the first one is something
00:49:59.159 --> 00:50:00.860
that I wanted to ask you along the way, but I've
00:50:00.860 --> 00:50:03.239
waited until now because the question is what's
00:50:03.239 --> 00:50:06.119
on the horizon for you. But I'd be particularly
00:50:06.119 --> 00:50:08.519
interested to know what shape you think your
00:50:08.519 --> 00:50:12.880
career will take after the PhD. Oh, that's interesting.
00:50:15.500 --> 00:50:18.380
Look, I'm not really – I'm not certain. I'm not
00:50:18.380 --> 00:50:21.519
kind of committing myself to anything at this
00:50:21.519 --> 00:50:23.840
point. I'm just – right now I'm just focused
00:50:23.840 --> 00:50:28.059
on the submission part because it does seem like,
00:50:28.079 --> 00:50:30.579
you know, like you said, it's such a monumental
00:50:30.579 --> 00:50:37.659
thing. And, yeah, it's huge. So right now I'm
00:50:37.659 --> 00:50:42.340
focusing on just getting there. Yeah. But I do
00:50:42.340 --> 00:50:45.900
think that post this, there will be something.
00:50:46.440 --> 00:50:48.559
I have faith that there'll be something. I mean,
00:50:48.559 --> 00:50:51.840
I'm pretty driven. So usually something turns
00:50:51.840 --> 00:50:55.460
up. Are you thinking academia or industry or
00:50:55.460 --> 00:50:58.820
whatever's there? Look, I would like to continue
00:50:58.820 --> 00:51:01.880
to research, but I think it's actually, I don't
00:51:01.880 --> 00:51:04.820
think, I think for me, it's never like 100 %
00:51:04.820 --> 00:51:09.500
one way or another. I'm more likely to. um keep
00:51:09.500 --> 00:51:12.320
the flexibility open so i'd like to continue
00:51:12.320 --> 00:51:14.639
to research but i would also like to make an
00:51:14.639 --> 00:51:18.619
impact with my research through industry so i
00:51:18.619 --> 00:51:20.420
think i think there are a lot of opportunities
00:51:20.420 --> 00:51:24.139
um particularly since covert one of the the great
00:51:24.139 --> 00:51:26.940
things is that workforce flexibility has increased
00:51:26.940 --> 00:51:30.760
exponentially i think um over the last kind of
00:51:30.760 --> 00:51:34.960
um five years i think most organizations accept
00:51:34.960 --> 00:51:39.550
a little bit of flexibility these days so You
00:51:39.550 --> 00:51:45.190
know, I'd like to do some consulting, some implementation
00:51:45.190 --> 00:51:53.349
of hopefully my research in industry whilst I'm
00:51:53.349 --> 00:51:56.510
also supporting and potentially doing more research
00:51:56.510 --> 00:51:59.829
about other ways that we can improve resilience
00:51:59.829 --> 00:52:04.690
and improve innovation in organizations. So I
00:52:04.690 --> 00:52:09.590
don't think it's a one or the other. I think
00:52:09.590 --> 00:52:13.230
it's kind of a, it's just going to be a continuation
00:52:13.230 --> 00:52:16.690
journey of, okay, where do I think I can make
00:52:16.690 --> 00:52:20.869
impact? And, you know, what opportunities are
00:52:20.869 --> 00:52:23.429
available? Yep. Yep. And then you'll be well
00:52:23.429 --> 00:52:25.789
placed to take whatever's there, I think, because
00:52:25.789 --> 00:52:29.570
you have that openness to it. You're not, you're
00:52:29.570 --> 00:52:33.199
not. dead set on being an academic. And so, you
00:52:33.199 --> 00:52:35.559
know, the hiring for that only happens once a
00:52:35.559 --> 00:52:37.380
year and you get a job or you don't, and then
00:52:37.380 --> 00:52:39.699
it's another year and you're trying to fill the
00:52:39.699 --> 00:52:41.980
gaps and that could be a rough cycle to get stuck
00:52:41.980 --> 00:52:45.159
in. So I'm sure something will come along at
00:52:45.159 --> 00:52:49.059
the right time. That'll be good. The last question
00:52:49.059 --> 00:52:51.760
that I ask everybody is, and maybe it's hard
00:52:51.760 --> 00:52:53.239
for you because as you said, you're very focused
00:52:53.239 --> 00:52:55.920
on finishing right now, but something not related
00:52:55.920 --> 00:52:58.320
to the PhD that you're excited about at the moment.
00:52:59.360 --> 00:53:02.739
Look, you know, my youngest just started prep
00:53:02.739 --> 00:53:10.440
and so I'm really excited about watching my kids
00:53:10.440 --> 00:53:16.199
go through the learning process. There are two
00:53:16.199 --> 00:53:18.860
aspects of that, right, and some of it's selfish.
00:53:19.480 --> 00:53:22.460
One is that I'm excited to see them be hungry
00:53:22.460 --> 00:53:25.800
to learn and my kids are very hungry learners.
00:53:26.519 --> 00:53:30.860
Gosh, my... My eight -year -old is such a great
00:53:30.860 --> 00:53:33.400
reader and she just devours books. That's great.
00:53:33.599 --> 00:53:37.519
And my preppy, she is already reading four books
00:53:37.519 --> 00:53:41.300
on her own and I'm so excited for them to have
00:53:41.300 --> 00:53:47.099
a love of learning. But equally with this having
00:53:47.099 --> 00:53:50.869
two in school. And it's really kind of starts
00:53:50.869 --> 00:53:53.590
to free up a bit of my time and a bit more capacity
00:53:53.590 --> 00:53:58.210
for myself, which is also super exciting about,
00:53:58.429 --> 00:54:02.030
you know, redefining what I'm capable of doing
00:54:02.030 --> 00:54:06.690
and, you know, taking not only them through a
00:54:06.690 --> 00:54:10.429
new journey, but also like what does that mean
00:54:10.429 --> 00:54:14.190
for me and the things that I can do in this period.
00:54:15.960 --> 00:54:20.460
I'm really excited for that. It's a pretty, yeah,
00:54:20.599 --> 00:54:24.039
it's watching them grow and watching them be
00:54:24.039 --> 00:54:29.059
excited about learning is, yeah, it's exciting.
00:54:29.380 --> 00:54:31.539
Yeah, and you'll be there, you know, to model
00:54:31.539 --> 00:54:33.920
along the way. I think that's a big part of especially
00:54:33.920 --> 00:54:37.710
reading, if kids see you reading. then they'll
00:54:37.710 --> 00:54:39.090
also be reading. That's something I'm looking
00:54:39.090 --> 00:54:42.269
forward to. My son only just turned four. And
00:54:42.269 --> 00:54:44.090
we're just now getting to the point where we're
00:54:44.090 --> 00:54:46.909
in that stage where he quote unquote reads books
00:54:46.909 --> 00:54:49.510
because he's memorized them. But he's thrilled
00:54:49.510 --> 00:54:53.150
that he can read a book to me. And so he's obviously
00:54:53.150 --> 00:54:55.170
got that hunger and that'll be the next stage
00:54:55.170 --> 00:54:59.150
is actually learning how to read. But I'm hoping
00:54:59.150 --> 00:55:04.059
that I've been trying to find. pockets of time
00:55:04.059 --> 00:55:08.179
and build more reading into my day. I've started
00:55:08.179 --> 00:55:11.099
reading on a Kobo, on an e -reader, and he's
00:55:11.099 --> 00:55:15.039
very curious about that. So hopefully he follows
00:55:15.039 --> 00:55:18.440
along and wants to keep reading with me. I have
00:55:18.440 --> 00:55:23.039
this very specific fantasy of a Sunday afternoon,
00:55:23.300 --> 00:55:26.440
he and I... shoot off to a cafe and we just were
00:55:26.440 --> 00:55:28.139
reading our books and we're having our coffee
00:55:28.139 --> 00:55:30.519
and our baby Chino and or hot chocolate or whatever
00:55:30.519 --> 00:55:33.000
and just Kind of being a couple would couple
00:55:33.000 --> 00:55:36.460
would do the reading books So one day I hope
00:55:36.460 --> 00:55:39.400
that comes true I'm sure it will I mean, you
00:55:39.400 --> 00:55:42.199
know, I am I taught both my girls to read before
00:55:42.199 --> 00:55:45.940
they went to school I was very much a Look, you
00:55:45.940 --> 00:55:48.519
know and one of the things I love is it is trying
00:55:48.519 --> 00:55:53.860
to help them be curious learners and so Yeah,
00:55:53.900 --> 00:55:56.460
that was something that I wanted to make sure
00:55:56.460 --> 00:56:00.639
that I instilled in them, that love. And one
00:56:00.639 --> 00:56:02.920
of the things that I'm looking at with my eight
00:56:02.920 --> 00:56:07.219
-year -old now is, you know, critical thinking.
00:56:07.880 --> 00:56:11.820
Yeah. Critical thinking and kind of starting
00:56:11.820 --> 00:56:15.099
to just like plant the seed of that for her.
00:56:15.219 --> 00:56:17.639
Yeah. Which is obviously dangerous as she goes
00:56:17.639 --> 00:56:21.179
into the teenage years. I'm going to live to
00:56:21.179 --> 00:56:24.219
regret it. Yeah, I think... It'll keep you on
00:56:24.219 --> 00:56:26.219
your toes. It's absolutely going to keep me on
00:56:26.219 --> 00:56:30.199
my toes. But yeah, I look forward to, and whether
00:56:30.199 --> 00:56:34.199
that be my children or other people in the workplace,
00:56:34.480 --> 00:56:37.400
but instilling a love of learning and personal
00:56:37.400 --> 00:56:41.960
growth in other people and sharing the ability
00:56:41.960 --> 00:56:46.579
to just keep going. Just because you're here
00:56:46.579 --> 00:56:48.159
right now doesn't mean you have to stay here
00:56:48.159 --> 00:56:51.860
and continue to look at... how you can do better
00:56:51.860 --> 00:56:56.239
and help people to reflect on that in their own
00:56:56.239 --> 00:57:00.980
lives and actually just spark a little bit of
00:57:00.980 --> 00:57:03.519
curiosity and spark a little bit of motivation
00:57:03.519 --> 00:57:07.400
and ambition, you know, trying to get that happening.
00:57:07.679 --> 00:57:10.000
Yeah. Well, you've certainly sparked some curiosity
00:57:10.000 --> 00:57:11.619
for me. I'm going to be looking up some more
00:57:11.619 --> 00:57:14.820
about maverickism once I get back to Sydney.
00:57:16.489 --> 00:57:19.010
Maybe just pure curiosity. Maybe it informs my
00:57:19.010 --> 00:57:21.610
research. I don't know. But you've sparked my
00:57:21.610 --> 00:57:25.170
interest. Thank you very much for taking the
00:57:25.170 --> 00:57:27.969
time to sit down and share your story with me
00:57:27.969 --> 00:57:30.190
today. I really enjoyed hearing it. And I hope
00:57:30.190 --> 00:57:34.230
that listeners out there are inspired by what
00:57:34.230 --> 00:57:36.769
you've shared with us today. Thank you so much
00:57:36.769 --> 00:57:38.630
for having me. I've really appreciated meeting
00:57:38.630 --> 00:57:40.949
you and getting to know you a little bit and
00:57:40.949 --> 00:57:41.989
sharing with you.