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I'm John Batchelor. The shadow fleet, a metaphor that has
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been extremely mysterious and enjoyable through these years of war.
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More shadow fleet mentioned in the Wall Street Journal in
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these last hours. Iran's fleet of shadow tankers has run
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out of oil after months-long U.S. blockade. Subhead from page
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of the Wall Street Journal. Tehran had millions of barrels
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of crude and tankers in Asian waters that gave it
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a steady flow of cash. Now, that oil has dried up.
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What this means, of course, is opportunity. And I welcome
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Miar Maliki, a senior fellow at the Foundation for Defense
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of Democracies. Heretofore, for eight years, he served the nation
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as a senior sanctioned official at the Treasury Department, Treasury's
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Office of Foreign Assets Control. If that sounds like the
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shadow fleet, you guessed right. A very good evening to you, Miar.
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The headline about the shadow fleet of Iran Running Out
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of Oil, looks to me a way of introducing your
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topic in the op-ed pages of the Wall Street Journal
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about opportunity. First, let's set how many we're talking about
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and what is right now your understanding of their fate.
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Good evening to you. How many tankers are there, super
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tankers and tankers of all kinds, that are carrying oil
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in and around the Strait of Hormuz? Good day.
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Thanks for having me, John. Great to be with you.
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So there are about 160 super tankers, the very large
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crude carriers that are out there that are sanctioned by U.S.
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Treasury Department's Office of Foreign Asset Control for operating in
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illicit oil market and transferring Iranian and Russian oil. So
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160 there. And then you have hundreds, probably somewhere around
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700 or more of tankers in total that that are
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either sanctioned, they're not supertankers, but they're sanctioned, or not sanctioned,
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but they're owned by, I'm sorry, they're operated or managed
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by sanctioned companies that are involved in helping Iran and
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Russia and other sanctioned jurisdictions to move oil and bypass U.S.
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Economic sanctions.
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So this is the Shadow Fleet, and its hulls are
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in rough shape, to characterize the photographs I've seen. it
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describes tankers that are worth less than their insurance sometimes,
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I'm going to guess. And that is out there floating
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on the water now, whether it has oil in it
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or not. It's still under the control of Iran and Russia.
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Is that correct?
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Right. Some of them are ready to be scrapped, ready
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to be established and retire. They're really old tankers. And
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some of them are really good shape. They can still
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continue to operate. They're large Super tankers, they need good
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maintenance and they can be returned back to legitimate oil market.
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And that's the opportunity that I discussed in my piece.
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And just to give you a little bit of background.
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So what happens here is for years, we sanctioned companies
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and operators of these tankers.
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And what that.
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Did, it really increased the operational cost of these companies
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to move oil to, for example, China, from Iran, from Venezuela,
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from other jurisdictions that have been subject to sanctions. Now,
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the reason and the way that it really increased the
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price or operational cost of moving oil for these companies
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is that because they're sanctioned, they can't really get proper insurance,
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they can't get refueling, they can't get They can't really
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work with a formal financial system. They can't work with
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a formal market. So they operate in the black market
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and they have to pay commissions. They have to pay middlemen.
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They have to pay a lot of people in the
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middle so they can get the oil to the buyers
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in China. And that's why they're shadow fleet. And because
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they have been sanctioned. They can't really deal with non-sanctioned oil.
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No one wants to deal with them because they're sanctioned.
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So it becomes an opportunity for Iran and other countries
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to use these tankers because no one else would work
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with them. So they've become a part of Iran and
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Russia's sanctions evasion landscape.
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The picture I had all these months of reporting the
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Shadow Fleet is that it's a collection of junked, about-junkable
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ships that are floating around independent of all reality staying
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away from the regular sea lanes, not enduring inspections of
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any kind, not entering into the regulatory ports of Europe.
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And now and again, they were threatened by European or
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NATO or U.S. powers to be intercepted and boarded and inspected.
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Is that too romantic of what the Shadow Fleet was,
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imagining it as a coordinated effort of parasites?
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That's exactly what it is, John.
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I mean, again, these are networks of black market people
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who have assets that sometimes they're not in good shape
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and they're ready to be sent to junkyards or they're
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pretty valuable, but they can't use them for anything else
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but sanctioned oil because their names are on OFACs and
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EUs and other sanctions lists around the world. So they're
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kind of stuck in the black market. And there has
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been not just the Treasury Department being very seriously going
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after them.
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But as you said, U.S.
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Government's engagement with Europeans, with other jurisdictions, been really increasing
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the pressure on folks who are operating in the shadows
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and letting Iran and Venezuela bypass sanctions.
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So the pressure has built up.
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And now we also have this rate of hormones where expensive,
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valuable tankers are they take a lot of insurance money
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to move through the Strait of Hormuz. And now you
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have this huge shadow fleet of cheap tankers or less
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valuable than normal tankers that can be deployed to haul
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oil through the Strait of Hormuz for Gulf countries and
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other nations that are working with us.
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The news from Wall Street Journal involves just Iran's shadow fleet,
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but I take it from your article that there are
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many more countries involved in this. you've named Turkey, you've
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talked about Venezuela. We have an item in your column,
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China's Yulong petrochemical was sanctioned in October of last year.
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That means secondary sanctions, is that what that means? Or
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people who deal with Yulong have been sanctioned as well?
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How extensive is that sanctioning?
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So that's a very interesting case that I laid out
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in my piece as how Iran manages to to obtain
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these kind of huge networks of, um, companies operating in
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the black market. You know, this, uh, company is that
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you named is a reef refineries, a teapot refinery, meaning
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is a small size refinery in China that has been
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purchasing Iranian and sanctions oil. A portion of the oil
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they've been buying were Iranian and, and some Russian, but
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after they were sanctioned, they, um, dealt with a lot
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of problems, financial problems. They're probably going to have to
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close shop at some point. But in the meantime, they
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have no one else that is willing to work with
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them but the Iranians and Russians. So they went from,
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let's say, buying 10% of their entire oil purchases from
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Iran to having to purchase 100% of their oil from
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Iran and Russia. So now they've become a part of
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Iran's orbit of black market. And the article that I'm
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laying out is, my piece, is advocating for considering working
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with this company, take him away, chip him away from
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Iran's sanctions. This is how sanctions would actually work, that
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you go to these companies and you get them to
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comply with our sanctions. You get them to change their
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business operations to be aligned with U.S.
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National security interests.
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One more question before we go to the solution. And
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I love your solution. Okay, fine. The payoff is a
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big one. But, The secondary sanctions, would they be right
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now directed at the banks who give Yulong money to
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sustain its operations? Would they be directed at anybody selling
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or buying from Yulong Oil, not just sanctioned countries?
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Absolutely.
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That's really what secondary sanctions do. In this case, they're
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targeting banks, insurance companies, financial institutions, anyone who would be
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now willing to work with someone who is on the
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sanctions list. That's the most biting aspect or effective aspect
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of U.S. economic sanctions, and that is the secondary sanctions.
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And that includes people who are dealing in companies that
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are not non-transparent, not suspect. You mentioned Saudi Aramco. Is
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that in some way connected to Yulong Petrochemical? That's certainly
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a big company.
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Well, no. So what happened, that was the effect of
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secondary sanctions.
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So when this teapot refinery, when this refinery in China
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was sanctioned, And Romco and BP and other companies who
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had some dealings with this refinery, they quickly stopped working
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with them because they don't want to face the secondary sanctions.
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So they cut all the contracts and then this refinery
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was left with no business but Iran business. And yeah,
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the secondary sanctions is what really pushed these other companies
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to cut ties.
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I just want to establish, Mian, because you're an opportunity
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for me to clarify questions I've had over the years.
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Saudi Aramco and BP were not ignorant that they were
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dealing with the possibility of sanctioned oil coming from the
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Shadow Fleet. They could not pretend not to. to know this.
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Is that correct?
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That's correct. And they were not doing anything wrong here.
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They were just selling oil to a buyer in China,
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and that buyer was also buying oil from Iran. And
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there was no way for these guys to know that
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was the case. And what Treasury did, Treasury designated the
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purchaser of Iranian oil. And as a result of that,
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Aramco and BP quickly stopped working with that buyer.
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Wonderful. And when we come back, what is to be done?
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The Admiral Maliki of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracy,
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a veteran of the Treasury Department. I'm John Bash.
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Thank you.
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I'm John Baxter. I'm speaking to my colleague, Miad Maliki,
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of a senior fellow at the Foundation for Defense of Democracies.
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This is inside the sanctions machine that's been operating it
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for years now. And I've been outside trying to puzzle,
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what is the shadow fleet? What is to be done?
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Why don't they just sink it? Where does it go?
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All right. Miad served at Treasury for eight years, so
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he's seen the inside and outside of the shadow fleet.
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Now it might be.
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Date stamped out of use. It might be that they
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can't use the shadow fleet anymore. For example, we have
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a headline that says Iran's shadow fleet is empty of oil.
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What are they going to do with it? The solution
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is too easy and too obvious for me not to laugh. Mayad,
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it's your solution. It's capitalism. What do you recommend?
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So my recommendation is, you know, the problem that we
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laid out just a minute ago was that Tehran, Iran
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built a black market to get around our sanctions wall.
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The blockade and U.S.
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Treasury Department sanctions these days starved, as you said, this
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black market of oil, of Iranian oil. Now, my solution,
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what I'm proposing here is to work with companies that
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are not sanctioned. But they own these tankers, and these
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tankers have become a part of Shadow Fleet because they
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were managed by people who were helping Iranians bypass sanctions
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by moving their oil. Work with these owners, get them
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to sell these tankers to companies, corporations that are U.S.
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Companies that are aligned with U.S.
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Financial interests and national security interests, and employ these tankers
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that are mostly cheaper tankers or old tankers, use these
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tankers to haul oil, to move oil out of the
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Strait of Hormuz. They're not expensive tankers. They're not new tankers.
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The insurance cost is going to be lower. And what
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you do here, one, you deprive the Iranian regime of
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its shadow fleet by taking them away from Iranians. Two,
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you're helping Gulf countries and other partners to take oil
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out of the Strait of Hormuz at a lower insurance cost. So,
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It's an opportunity, the result of the blockade and great
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economic sanctions pressure that Treasury Department is imposing on Iran
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and its enablers. And now this is an opportunity to
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let U.S. companies or companies that are aligned with U.S.
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interests to go in, take these tankers and use them
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for legitimate business activities.
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You propose that the U.S. buy them and resell them
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or just make it possible for sellers to come into
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the market?
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I think we should make it possible for these tankers
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to be purchased by legitimate companies, brought out of the shadows,
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and start becoming a part of a legitimate oil transactions
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or oil transfers.
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These companies, these theoretical companies, they would need assurances that
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they weren't going to be sanctioned, correct? Can that happen?
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That's correct.
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I think there's a process in the Treasury Department that
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they can work with, provide full transparency, give all their paperwork,
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report to Treasury who they're talking to, who they're buying from,
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and what they're going to use the tankers for. And then, again,
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you bring in these tankers out of shadows into a
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full transparent process so they can start becoming a part
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of the fleet that would move oil out of the
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strata foremost and serve our financial economic interests.
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And you mentioned the very oldest ships, the one that
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can't pass any code whatsoever, that couldn't stand an inspection.
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You recommend they just be scrapped.
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They can just be scrapped, right? So they're not even
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operating as a part of the black market.
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They're gone.
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And you mentioned in the course of your article container
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ships as well. Are there many of those that can
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be brought away from Iran?
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There are a lot of them.
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There are hundreds of those that are now being used
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to move petrochemical products, refined petroleum products. Some of those
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could be used in the legitimate market. We just need
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to bring them out of the shadows.
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I can't find anything wrong with this, but I keep looking.
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The U.S. Navy is responsible for the blockade, they would
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be informed that this tanker or this container ship is
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agreeable to the U.S. and let it pass. Is that
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part of the plan as well?
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That's part of the plan.
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As soon as these tankers are moved, their ownership is
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moved to legitimate companies.
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That are aligned with U.S. and or U.S.
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Companies, they'll become clean and they're going to start engaging
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in clean and a type of business that is going
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to serve the interests of us, of the U.S., and
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I think U.S.
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Navy will let them move through.
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You mentioned the war risk insurance. I'm told that that's
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a big piece of the price of a barrel of
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oil these days is the insurance cost for each tanker,
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and you think it would cost 7.5% to 10% of
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a ship's hull value, so that would be a very
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low number, and the insurance companies would go along with this.
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Yeah, I mean, if you have a tanker that is old,
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that is not as expensive and valuable, then the insurance
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would go down. And I think this is the way
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that Iranians managed to bypass sanctions. They used really old
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oil tankers that didn't have a whole lot of value
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and the risk was low and the insurance coverage was
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financially feasible for them. We're not going to use those
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against the Iranians. And that's the proposal that I have here.
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One more twist. Would this work with the shadow fleet
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that Russia uses to get its oil? And it's about
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to sell diesel again now that the harvest is in.
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Would it work with those tankers as well? Or would
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that be going up against the Russian agents?
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I think it would work. So here's the interesting thing, John.
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Most of these shadow fleet tankers are switching between Iranian
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and Russian oil. And now there is no Iranian oil left.
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They're probably going to switch to the Russian oil. Yeah.
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And And now there's an opportunity again to bring these
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tankers into legitimate market. And then it will give President
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Trump a leverage with Russia as well. That if you
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want to allow diesel to go through, now you can
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have tankers that would be authorized and operate in the
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legitimate market to move that diesel.
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Mayad Maliki, the Capitalism Solutionist, Senior Fellow at the Foundation
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for the Defense of Democracies. He served as a senior
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sanctions official at Treasury 17 to 25. That's the Treasury's
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Office of Foreign Assets Control. A podcast of our conversation
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about the Shadow Fleet, available at Amazon, at Apple, Spotify, Spreaker,
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and other distinguished venues. I'm John Batchelor.
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I'm John Batchelor. The shadow fleet, a metaphor that has
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been extremely mysterious and enjoyable through these years of war.
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More shadow fleet mentioned in the Wall Street Journal in
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these last hours. Iran's fleet of shadow tankers has run
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out of oil after months-long U.S. blockade. Subhead from page
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of the Wall Street Journal. Tehran had millions of barrels
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of crude and tankers in Asian waters that gave it
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a steady flow of cash. Now, that oil has dried up.
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What this means, of course, is opportunity. And I welcome
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Miar Maliki, a senior fellow at the Foundation for Defense
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of Democracies. Heretofore, for eight years, he served the nation
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as a senior sanctioned official at the Treasury Department, Treasury's
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Office of Foreign Assets Control. If that sounds like the
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shadow fleet, you guessed right. A very good evening to you, Miar.
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The headline about the shadow fleet of Iran Running Out
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of Oil, looks to me a way of introducing your
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topic in the op-ed pages of the Wall Street Journal
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about opportunity. First, let's set how many we're talking about
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and what is right now your understanding of their fate.
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Good evening to you. How many tankers are there, super
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tankers and tankers of all kinds, that are carrying oil
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in and around the Strait of Hormuz? Good day.
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Thanks for having me, John. Great to be with you.
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So there are about 160 super tankers, the very large
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crude carriers that are out there that are sanctioned by U.S.
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Treasury Department's Office of Foreign Asset Control for operating in
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illicit oil market and transferring Iranian and Russian oil. So
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160 there. And then you have hundreds, probably somewhere around
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700 or more of tankers in total that that are
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either sanctioned, they're not supertankers, but they're sanctioned, or not sanctioned,
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but they're owned by, I'm sorry, they're operated or managed
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by sanctioned companies that are involved in helping Iran and
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Russia and other sanctioned jurisdictions to move oil and bypass U.S.
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Economic sanctions.
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So this is the Shadow Fleet, and its hulls are
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in rough shape, to characterize the photographs I've seen. it
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describes tankers that are worth less than their insurance sometimes,
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I'm going to guess. And that is out there floating
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on the water now, whether it has oil in it
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or not. It's still under the control of Iran and Russia.
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Is that correct?
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Right. Some of them are ready to be scrapped, ready
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to be established and retire. They're really old tankers. And
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some of them are really good shape. They can still
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continue to operate. They're large Super tankers, they need good
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maintenance and they can be returned back to legitimate oil market.
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And that's the opportunity that I discussed in my piece.
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And just to give you a little bit of background.
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So what happens here is for years, we sanctioned companies
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and operators of these tankers.
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And what that.
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Did, it really increased the operational cost of these companies
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to move oil to, for example, China, from Iran, from Venezuela,
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from other jurisdictions that have been subject to sanctions. Now,
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the reason and the way that it really increased the
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price or operational cost of moving oil for these companies
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is that because they're sanctioned, they can't really get proper insurance,
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they can't get refueling, they can't get They can't really
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work with a formal financial system. They can't work with
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a formal market. So they operate in the black market
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and they have to pay commissions. They have to pay middlemen.
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They have to pay a lot of people in the
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middle so they can get the oil to the buyers
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in China. And that's why they're shadow fleet. And because
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they have been sanctioned. They can't really deal with non-sanctioned oil.
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No one wants to deal with them because they're sanctioned.
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So it becomes an opportunity for Iran and other countries
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to use these tankers because no one else would work
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with them. So they've become a part of Iran and
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Russia's sanctions evasion landscape.
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The picture I had all these months of reporting the
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Shadow Fleet is that it's a collection of junked, about-junkable
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ships that are floating around independent of all reality staying
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away from the regular sea lanes, not enduring inspections of
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any kind, not entering into the regulatory ports of Europe.
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And now and again, they were threatened by European or
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NATO or U.S. powers to be intercepted and boarded and inspected.
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Is that too romantic of what the Shadow Fleet was,
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imagining it as a coordinated effort of parasites?
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That's exactly what it is, John.
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I mean, again, these are networks of black market people
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who have assets that sometimes they're not in good shape
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and they're ready to be sent to junkyards or they're
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pretty valuable, but they can't use them for anything else
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but sanctioned oil because their names are on OFACs and
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EUs and other sanctions lists around the world. So they're
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kind of stuck in the black market. And there has
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been not just the Treasury Department being very seriously going
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after them.
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But as you said, U.S.
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Government's engagement with Europeans, with other jurisdictions, been really increasing
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the pressure on folks who are operating in the shadows
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and letting Iran and Venezuela bypass sanctions.
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So the pressure has built up.
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And now we also have this rate of hormones where expensive,
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valuable tankers are they take a lot of insurance money
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to move through the Strait of Hormuz. And now you
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have this huge shadow fleet of cheap tankers or less
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valuable than normal tankers that can be deployed to haul
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oil through the Strait of Hormuz for Gulf countries and
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other nations that are working with us.
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The news from Wall Street Journal involves just Iran's shadow fleet,
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but I take it from your article that there are
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many more countries involved in this. you've named Turkey, you've
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talked about Venezuela. We have an item in your column,
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China's Yulong petrochemical was sanctioned in October of last year.
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That means secondary sanctions, is that what that means? Or
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people who deal with Yulong have been sanctioned as well?
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How extensive is that sanctioning?
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So that's a very interesting case that I laid out
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in my piece as how Iran manages to to obtain
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these kind of huge networks of, um, companies operating in
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the black market. You know, this, uh, company is that
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you named is a reef refineries, a teapot refinery, meaning
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is a small size refinery in China that has been
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purchasing Iranian and sanctions oil. A portion of the oil
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they've been buying were Iranian and, and some Russian, but
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after they were sanctioned, they, um, dealt with a lot
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of problems, financial problems. They're probably going to have to
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close shop at some point. But in the meantime, they
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have no one else that is willing to work with
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them but the Iranians and Russians. So they went from,
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let's say, buying 10% of their entire oil purchases from
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Iran to having to purchase 100% of their oil from
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Iran and Russia. So now they've become a part of
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Iran's orbit of black market. And the article that I'm
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laying out is, my piece, is advocating for considering working
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with this company, take him away, chip him away from
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Iran's sanctions. This is how sanctions would actually work, that
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you go to these companies and you get them to
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comply with our sanctions. You get them to change their
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business operations to be aligned with U.S.
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National security interests.
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One more question before we go to the solution. And
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I love your solution. Okay, fine. The payoff is a
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big one. But, The secondary sanctions, would they be right
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now directed at the banks who give Yulong money to
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sustain its operations? Would they be directed at anybody selling
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or buying from Yulong Oil, not just sanctioned countries?
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Absolutely.
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That's really what secondary sanctions do. In this case, they're
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targeting banks, insurance companies, financial institutions, anyone who would be
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now willing to work with someone who is on the
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sanctions list. That's the most biting aspect or effective aspect
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of U.S. economic sanctions, and that is the secondary sanctions.
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And that includes people who are dealing in companies that
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are not non-transparent, not suspect. You mentioned Saudi Aramco. Is
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that in some way connected to Yulong Petrochemical? That's certainly
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a big company.
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Well, no. So what happened, that was the effect of
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secondary sanctions.
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So when this teapot refinery, when this refinery in China
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was sanctioned, And Romco and BP and other companies who
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had some dealings with this refinery, they quickly stopped working
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with them because they don't want to face the secondary sanctions.
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So they cut all the contracts and then this refinery
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was left with no business but Iran business. And yeah,
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the secondary sanctions is what really pushed these other companies
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to cut ties.
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I just want to establish, Mian, because you're an opportunity
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for me to clarify questions I've had over the years.
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Saudi Aramco and BP were not ignorant that they were
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dealing with the possibility of sanctioned oil coming from the
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Shadow Fleet. They could not pretend not to. to know this.
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Is that correct?
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That's correct. And they were not doing anything wrong here.
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They were just selling oil to a buyer in China,
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and that buyer was also buying oil from Iran. And
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there was no way for these guys to know that
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was the case. And what Treasury did, Treasury designated the
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purchaser of Iranian oil. And as a result of that,
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Aramco and BP quickly stopped working with that buyer.
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Wonderful. And when we come back, what is to be done?
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The Admiral Maliki of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracy,
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a veteran of the Treasury Department. I'm John Bash.
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Thank you.
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I'm John Baxter. I'm speaking to my colleague, Miad Maliki,
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of a senior fellow at the Foundation for Defense of Democracies.
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This is inside the sanctions machine that's been operating it
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for years now. And I've been outside trying to puzzle,
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what is the shadow fleet? What is to be done?
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Why don't they just sink it? Where does it go?
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All right. Miad served at Treasury for eight years, so
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he's seen the inside and outside of the shadow fleet.
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Now it might be.
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Date stamped out of use. It might be that they
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can't use the shadow fleet anymore. For example, we have
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a headline that says Iran's shadow fleet is empty of oil.
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What are they going to do with it? The solution
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is too easy and too obvious for me not to laugh. Mayad,
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it's your solution. It's capitalism. What do you recommend?
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So my recommendation is, you know, the problem that we
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laid out just a minute ago was that Tehran, Iran
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built a black market to get around our sanctions wall.
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The blockade and U.S.
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Treasury Department sanctions these days starved, as you said, this
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black market of oil, of Iranian oil. Now, my solution,
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what I'm proposing here is to work with companies that
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are not sanctioned. But they own these tankers, and these
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tankers have become a part of Shadow Fleet because they
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were managed by people who were helping Iranians bypass sanctions
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by moving their oil. Work with these owners, get them
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to sell these tankers to companies, corporations that are U.S.
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Companies that are aligned with U.S.
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Financial interests and national security interests, and employ these tankers
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that are mostly cheaper tankers or old tankers, use these
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tankers to haul oil, to move oil out of the
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Strait of Hormuz. They're not expensive tankers. They're not new tankers.
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The insurance cost is going to be lower. And what
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you do here, one, you deprive the Iranian regime of
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its shadow fleet by taking them away from Iranians. Two,
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you're helping Gulf countries and other partners to take oil
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out of the Strait of Hormuz at a lower insurance cost. So,
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It's an opportunity, the result of the blockade and great
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economic sanctions pressure that Treasury Department is imposing on Iran
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and its enablers. And now this is an opportunity to
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let U.S. companies or companies that are aligned with U.S.
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interests to go in, take these tankers and use them
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for legitimate business activities.
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You propose that the U.S. buy them and resell them
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or just make it possible for sellers to come into
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the market?
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I think we should make it possible for these tankers
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to be purchased by legitimate companies, brought out of the shadows,
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and start becoming a part of a legitimate oil transactions
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or oil transfers.
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These companies, these theoretical companies, they would need assurances that
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they weren't going to be sanctioned, correct? Can that happen?
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That's correct.
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I think there's a process in the Treasury Department that
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they can work with, provide full transparency, give all their paperwork,
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report to Treasury who they're talking to, who they're buying from,
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and what they're going to use the tankers for. And then, again,
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you bring in these tankers out of shadows into a
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full transparent process so they can start becoming a part
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of the fleet that would move oil out of the
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strata foremost and serve our financial economic interests.
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And you mentioned the very oldest ships, the one that
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can't pass any code whatsoever, that couldn't stand an inspection.
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You recommend they just be scrapped.
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They can just be scrapped, right? So they're not even
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operating as a part of the black market.
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They're gone.
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And you mentioned in the course of your article container
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ships as well. Are there many of those that can
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be brought away from Iran?
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There are a lot of them.
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There are hundreds of those that are now being used
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to move petrochemical products, refined petroleum products. Some of those
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could be used in the legitimate market. We just need
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to bring them out of the shadows.
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I can't find anything wrong with this, but I keep looking.
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The U.S. Navy is responsible for the blockade, they would
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be informed that this tanker or this container ship is
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agreeable to the U.S. and let it pass. Is that
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part of the plan as well?
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That's part of the plan.
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As soon as these tankers are moved, their ownership is
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moved to legitimate companies.
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That are aligned with U.S. and or U.S.
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Companies, they'll become clean and they're going to start engaging
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in clean and a type of business that is going
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to serve the interests of us, of the U.S., and
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I think U.S.
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Navy will let them move through.
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You mentioned the war risk insurance. I'm told that that's
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a big piece of the price of a barrel of
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oil these days is the insurance cost for each tanker,
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and you think it would cost 7.5% to 10% of
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a ship's hull value, so that would be a very
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low number, and the insurance companies would go along with this.
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Yeah, I mean, if you have a tanker that is old,
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that is not as expensive and valuable, then the insurance
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would go down. And I think this is the way
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that Iranians managed to bypass sanctions. They used really old
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oil tankers that didn't have a whole lot of value
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and the risk was low and the insurance coverage was
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financially feasible for them. We're not going to use those
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against the Iranians. And that's the proposal that I have here.
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One more twist. Would this work with the shadow fleet
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that Russia uses to get its oil? And it's about
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to sell diesel again now that the harvest is in.
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Would it work with those tankers as well? Or would
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that be going up against the Russian agents?
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I think it would work. So here's the interesting thing, John.
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Most of these shadow fleet tankers are switching between Iranian
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and Russian oil. And now there is no Iranian oil left.
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They're probably going to switch to the Russian oil. Yeah.
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And And now there's an opportunity again to bring these
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tankers into legitimate market. And then it will give President
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Trump a leverage with Russia as well. That if you
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want to allow diesel to go through, now you can
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have tankers that would be authorized and operate in the
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legitimate market to move that diesel.
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Mayad Maliki, the Capitalism Solutionist, Senior Fellow at the Foundation
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for the Defense of Democracies. He served as a senior
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sanctions official at Treasury 17 to 25. That's the Treasury's
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Office of Foreign Assets Control. A podcast of our conversation
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about the Shadow Fleet, available at Amazon, at Apple, Spotify, Spreaker,
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and other distinguished venues. I'm John Batchelor.
