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I'm Jeff Asher, and this is the Jeffalytics Podcast.
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The Department of Justice encompasses nearly 100 U.S.
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attorneys' offices nationwide, employs thousands of prosecutors, and touches basically every dimension of public safety in America.
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But most people have no idea how any of it actually works.
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Today's guest, Kenth Pole, does.
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A native New Orleanian who lost his brother to gun violence on the city streets in 2004, Kenneth spent the next two decades inside DOJ.
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From Assistant U.S.
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Attorney in the Southern District of New York to U.S.
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Attorney in New Orleans to Assistant Attorney General heading the entire criminal division, overseeing 1,400 people across 17 sections and operations in over 70 countries.
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In this episode, Kenneth talks about what that vantage point actually reveals, how data moves to the department, where it breaks down, and why prosecutors so rarely communicate the full scope of what they do.
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We also get into consent decrees, the politics of DOJ independence, and why restoring the department's credibility is going to require more than just a change in administration.
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Let's get started.
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My guest today is Kenneth Poley.
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Kenneth, how are you doing?
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Good to see you, good man.
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Good to see you as well.
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So, my first question to every guest, I want to ask you as well what is your background?
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What brings you here today?
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Uh well, it's a pleasure to see you again.
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Pleasure to join you.
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Longtime friends, of course, from our time in New Orleans, native New Orleanian, born and raised there, lots of family still there.
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Left New Orleans for college or for Harvard and then Georgetown for law school.
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Have lived and practiced law primarily on the East Coast.
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I have spent about half of my career in private practice, mostly in white-collar criminal defense.
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Uh, the other half has been in the Department of Justice.
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So I've I've served as an assistant U.S.
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attorney in the Southern District of New York.
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I was, of course, the United States attorney in our hometown of New Orleans, which is what brought us together many years ago.
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And then most recently from 2021 to 23, I served as the assistant attorney general and head of the criminal division of the Department of Justice in Washington, D.C.
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Now I currently serve as I'm a partner at Sidley Austin in Washington now.
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And and how did you get into prosecution and the criminal justice side of things?
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Yeah.
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Well, like I said, I started my career in private practice.
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I was in a white, primarily white-collar criminal defense practice that was headed by former prosecutors.
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So I think the idea in terms of uh developing those relationships in the law, I had great mentors that that always pointed me towards the possibility of becoming a prosecutor eventually.
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Um the the key event, I would say, in my life that led me to ultimately decide to become a prosecutor was the death of my brother in New Orleans in 2004.
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He died very tragically and very violently on the streets of New Orleans.
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And it was his death that really motivated me to become a prosecutor, really focused on becoming a prosecutor in my hometown of New Orleans in the hope of preventing that type of pain and tragedy and loss for other family members and other citizens of the of the city.
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And so 2004, I made a decision that to apply to the U.S.
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attorney's office in New Orleans.
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2005, early August of 05, I actually got the job as an assistant U.S.
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attorney in New Orleans.
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A good job to a good time to have that job.
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Yeah, because by the end of that month, of course, Hurricane Katrina hit, and uh we were still living in New York, uh, but of course, our family back home was uh was in some upheaval like the rest of the region.
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We decided ultimately not to move to New Orleans at that time, and I applied to the U.S.
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Attorney's Office in New York and ultimately did that job as an A USA in New York, but of course always had an eye towards eventually returning back home, which is what we did in 2010.
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And then eventually, of course, I got the opportunity to lead that office that I originally applied to.
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I tell my my colleagues and friends from Southern District of New York, which of course is oftentimes lauded as the premier U.S.
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attorney's office in the country.
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It's important for them to remember that that was really my second choice as U.S.
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attorney's offices.
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I always really wanted to be in New Orleans.
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So it was a it was a great honor to lead that office.
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Are you the only person that has ever said your primary choice for leadership with the DOJR is New York or New Orleans, New York?
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That's why it's important to remind them of that.
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So uh speaking of New Orleans, you know, you were there, you and I were there together in that sort of 2012 to 2015 time frame-ish when the city was undergoing a lot of changes post-Katrina, but also in terms of its approach to gun violence.
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The 90s and the early 2000s and that immediate post-Catrina period was so violent in New Orleans, and they've come such a long way.
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Uh do you have any thoughts on sort of like what have been the drivers?
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We've seen success coming from the city, and we've also seen success in the last few years where the city really hasn't done a ton.
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What do you think of when you think of that this sort of sea change in violence in New Orleans?
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Yeah.
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Well, I I do think that that time period, particularly during that, was during Mayor Landrew's administration.
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I think he and his team did a an outstanding job of really canvassing policy makers and and leading criminologists from across the country to really bring in world-class approaches to trying to really intervene in at the time what was a really crippling level of violence in the city of New Orleans and in other parts of this country.
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And so some of the some of the intervention efforts that I think we saw in terms of ceasefire and the like that were having success in other parts of the country, you know, having a true investment in those types of those types of efforts in New Orleans was important.
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Of course, we also had, you know, we had some of the some of the efforts related to really amplifying our efforts on the coordination of state, local, and federal law enforcement that was that was critical at the time, right?
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At times those law enforcement efforts are quite siloed and at times even in tension with one another.
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But I think that was a renaissance period where we saw tremendous amounts of coordination across law enforcement, across, you know, federal, state, and local to really make a difference in terms of taking the worst of the worst off of the streets of New Orleans and the in in the region of Southeast Louisiana.
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So you're you're promoted up the chain and you're at sort of big DOJ.
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What is that like?
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And I know a lot of people think of DOJ as sort of this monolith within the leadership.
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Can you talk through how sort of the executive level is structured and how that operates?
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Yeah.
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Well, you know, being a U.S.
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attorney, you know, there's 94 U.S.
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attorneys or 93 U.S.
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attorneys, 94 U.S.
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attorneys' offices, all reporting up to the deputy attorney general and then ultimately up to the attorney general.
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My boss didn't stay didn't change it all, right?
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As as uh as an assistant attorney general, I still reported up to the deputy attorney general.
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The big difference, of course, is that instead of instead of supervising one regional U.S.
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attorney's office, I was now in charge of supervising 1,400 public servants across 17 different sections, uh, covering the entire portfolio and spectrum of criminal law enforcement priorities for the Department of Justice.
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We had employees that sat not just in Washington, D.C.
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They sat in many of the significant regions of the country and most of our major cities.
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And indeed, we had employees when you talk about some of the some of the law enforcement training, prosecutorial training, MLATs and the like that we had representing us in other countries.
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We actually had employees sitting in over 70 countries across the globe that all reported up through the criminal division.
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And so that international component of the work that we did was in many ways pretty eye-opening for me.
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I wasn't actually aware of how how expansive the mandate of the criminal division was, uh, but but very quickly became aware of how much of a priority it is for the work of the department.
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And what's sort of your elevator pitch type description of what the criminal justice excuse me, the criminal division does within DOJ?
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Yeah, I would say that the elevator pitch is, you know, when we have 1,400 public servants covering every aspect of criminal law enforcement for the department.
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That includes everything from the fraud section to public integrity to uh to international law enforcement training and prosecutorial training, all of the priorities of the Department of Justice on the criminal side.
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And how did you rely on data in your work?
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Uh so it's pretty interesting.
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So we uh we actually had an entire section that was focused on on data analytics and in a lot of ways was the number crunchers for the success of criminal law enforcement for the Department of Justice that was based in the criminal division.
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A lot of a lot of the data that we worked helped, uh that we that we focused on was critical to understanding the success of our prosecutorial efforts, uh, of sentencing outcomes.
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Uh, we had representatives that sat on on many of the judicial and sentencing commissioning efforts and have done so for decades, frankly, helping to inform some of the considerations of those various bodies.
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And so we use we use data quite a bit during our jobs there.
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And did you have sort of any any workarounds when you lack data or when one of the big complaints of crime data is that it's just oftentimes so slow or bulky?
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Are there workarounds from a senior level that you used?
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Yeah, I mean, look, I think the the workaround for the Department of Justice in that context, and it's it's because of the expansive nature of the organization, I think quite frequently utilizing the U.S.
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attorney's offices directly, both analytical and anecdotal evidence to support decision making that the department was was making from a policy perspective.
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You know, we could we could convene a call with with a group of U.S.
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attorneys uh U.S.
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attorneys offices to talk about a particular issue if we were considering making a change in terms of how we approached gun violence prosecutions or human trafficking prosecutions.
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The the U.S.
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Attorney's Office community itself also has a number of of committees and organizations, including the Attorney General's advisory committee, that help advise, help advise the attorney general and the deputy attorney general on those types of decisions as well.
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So the that would oftentimes be the way that we were able to get closer real-time data, real-time information about what folks are seeing on the ground in various areas of the of the country that would then ultimately help inform decision making in the absence of having, you know, raw historical data.
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One of my sort of complaints, and we see this with prosecutors frequently, and we at the district attorney type level, and we see it certainly with with the U.S.
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attorney level as well, is that it feels like what they do is only communicated in terms of prosecution.
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Um, we tried this murder case and they were found guilty and all of this.
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And obviously DOJ has a nearly spectacular track record when it uh if the case goes style, it's for all of us that you're going to win it.
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Are there are there ways of communicating?
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Because I'm I'm really interested in sort of the communication element of this.
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Yeah, prosecution is so deep and the prosecutor's role is so deep, but often we only see this very tiny slice.
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Is are there ways that you would recommend, or maybe not, that the the US attorneys or local prosecutors can better communicate all of the work that they're doing so that that the public can better understand how they fit into the public safety atmosphere environment better?
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Yeah, I I I think this is an important issue, Jeff.
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And I I can't I'm not in the Department of Justice now, so I can't can't necessarily speak um to to how they frame this, this particular issue of how we communicate the the work of U.S.
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attorneys' offices or communicate the work of AUSAs and U.S.
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attorneys.
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But I I'll talk uh about the way that you know when I was becoming a U.S.
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attorney and speaking with leadership like you know, Eric Holder was the was the the attorney general at the time.
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And he would always frame this as you are not merely prosecutors, you are community problem solvers.
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Right.
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The notion being that appreciating the the power and authority that comes with investigating, prosecuting, sentencing, you know, leading to greater deterrence, you know, taking taking bad actors off of the street and and limiting their ability to replicate their criminality, all of those are important priorities for these offices.
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At the same time, that that is not the only way for us to achieve safety in our communities, right?
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And so if you know that, for example, your educational system uh is struggling with issues of truancy, and that may be leading to uh uh to greater youth violence in your communities, or it's a it's a it's it's a symptom of of greater youth violence in your community.
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Perhaps instead of just prosecuting your way towards addressing that issue, you you partner with educators, you partner with with with other support net uh systems within that community to help change the trajectory of those young people in a different way, away from criminality, away from turancy, and towards a more positive outcome.
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If you are seeing uh uh other issues related to your healthcare system, for example, and how that might be affecting safety in your community, issues of transportation, issues of of food, food security, uh uh issues of housing, all of these are issues that in the in the the the immediate kind of stereotypical fashioning of what a prosecutor, quote unquote, can do or a US attorney can do is clearly outside the scope.
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You know, you're not process that's not about prosecuting cases.
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That's not about making sure people go to jail.
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Uh, but those are all things that go to the bottom line of what you should be trying to achieve in that role, and that is increasing public safety.
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And that's where I think the framing of serving as a community problem solver really, really takes root.
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Yeah.
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And it it it feels like, you know, hey, crime is going down.
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Well, it's because of these, you know, very specific prosecutions we made, and crime is going up, and either it's ignored completely or it's we need to do more of the prosecutions, and we completely move that bigger angle.
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Yeah, no, that's right.
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That's right.
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And I and this this is there have been efforts, you know, there were at times different, different groups I can think of, you know, like the Brennan Center, for example, that would really press upon the Department of Justice, you know, look, we want you to to utilize other ways of measuring the success of your offices, right?
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Not just, you know, uh investigations, sentencing trials, you know, and the like, but you know, what are what are the outcomes within your community?
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Are you seeing uh are you seeing decreased homicides?
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Are you seeing greater safety in schools?
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Uh, are you seeing increases in graduation rate rate?
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I mean, is there any number of ways that you could kind of imagine a community being safer beyond how many people are locking up?
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And that's, you know, ultimately, I think that was one of the things that was was very important to me.
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You know, I was I was listening to the recent podcast that you had with our good friend Alex Papacristos.
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And, you know, I I I I remember meeting him and learning a little bit about his uh his research.
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And and of course, you were instrumental in helping us reimagine how we could utilize that type of data.
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You know, uh the that's that social networking uh information could be used to identify who we might think are gonna be the next shooters.
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And you could focus on it from an enforcement angle.
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At the same time, you could really focus on it as who's gonna be the next victims and what do we do to try to intervene to prevent them from becoming those victims.
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And ultimately it was that it was that reading of the data which led us to develop Crescent City Keepers, which was a you know a groundbreaking mentorship program that we were identifying young people that were identified as likely next victims, you know, four, 13, 14, 15-year-olds on the streets of New Orleans, and not wait until they're shot, not wait until we lose their lives, but intervene in their lives and intervene in the lives of their families to give them the support to have long-term success.
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And those are not easy efforts to undertake, but obviously very critical.
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And again, going to the long-term objective of increasing safety.
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Are there ways to improve the data flow from prosecutors, either at the local or the federal or the state level, to the public?
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I mean, we see it in policing excellent open data.
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Yeah.
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Other than Larry Krasner's office, maybe Kim Fox, when she was in Chicago, did a great job of publicizing data.
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I don't think they've continued that program now that she's no longer the district attorney.
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But there's so little public data, just the raw stuff, you know, remove all the PMI and all that, but raw data on how offices are working that allows the public to understand it and to evaluate it.
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Yeah.
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Is that a pipe dream that we get better prosecution data or is that proper?
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I think it I think the difficulty, of course, is that we don't have, you know, it's not one criminal justice system.
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It's, you know, we really have thousands of criminal justice systems from federal to the way various localities operate to state level law enforcement.
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And so the desperate priorities prioritization of how we gather and report out data becomes a challenge uh when you're dealing with that many different systems.
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With that said, I do think this is an area where the Department of Justice can really play an important role, you know, primarily through the purse strings.
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And again, I can only speak to the way that you know the department could and and did at times handle marshalling resources to ensure that there are some national, national implementation of priorities.
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But, you know, look, there are any number of law enforcement agencies and prosecutorial offices that get dollars from the Department of Justice, right?
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And so if if gathering and reporting out proper data was a priority for the attorney general, and he or she tied that funding as a prerequisite, you know, to that provoid providing that type of data became a prerequisite to getting those dollars.
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I think that's the closest that we could get uh to to ensuring in that that type of priority funnels down to to as many law enforcement agencies and cross creditorial offices as possible.
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You know, you kind of see, you know, one of the one of the ways, for example, that that happened primarily during Democratic administrations is through the consent decrees, right?
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When you re when you have a city that's under a consent decree, typically increased data reporting, data gathering is one of the factors that you see there.
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We definitely saw that when when New Orleans was under the consent decree there.
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That was the I was wondering how I was going to segue to my next question I've written down, which is is there a future for consent decrees with law enforcement?
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I mean, New Orleans is sort of heading out of it, and we were together at the baby steps of it.
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There's not new investigations happening and haven't for years.
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And the ones that have happened have been really slow, which I think makes it difficult to maintain these if it's gonna be a partisan happens under Democratic administrations and not Republican ones.
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So what it what do you see as the future there?
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Yeah, I as as I noted, I think the the partisan nature of of how these are received and viewed publicly is a concern.
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And and as a result, you don't really see much of them right now in the Republican administrations.
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What I will say though is I think the Minneapolis model that you're seeing where you know a state, a city, a locality, a law enforcement department voluntarily says we are we want to be better, we want to improve, we want to focus on whatever area of improving this agency is necessary, and we we're gonna put the dollars behind it to make it happen.
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I think that model can have.
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Some long-term success, regardless of whether a Democrat or Republican is sitting in the White House.
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You know, we did see a number of agencies begin to take on that type of a request, a voluntary request for additional support from the Department of Justice, outside of there being a pattern and practice investigation, them coming to the civil rights division and saying we want to have improvements in this particular aspect of the way that we are doing our operations, which I think that type of a perspective on this work can be can be long-term successful.
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I think some of the other challenges that, you know, frankly, there is alignment, I think, on for Democrats and Republicans on some aspects of improving consent decrees, namely the length of time of these consent decrees and the cost, the cost related to them.
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You know, Vanita Gupta issued some guidance under the Biden administration related to both aspects of that.
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I think Republicans you see have always focused on those as being critical detractors of the success of these things.
00:23:05.519 --> 00:23:07.599
I think there is some alignment related to that.
00:23:07.759 --> 00:23:14.400
So where you have a discrete commitment of time and dollars to these things, that they're not expected.
00:23:14.640 --> 00:23:20.319
You know, New Orleans, I think, was expected to be somewhere between three and five years or so.
00:23:20.480 --> 00:23:25.039
You know, we're over well over a decade before you're seeing that wind down.
00:23:25.279 --> 00:23:26.799
There has to be some urgency.
00:23:26.960 --> 00:23:40.960
We obviously don't want to lift up the pressure to can successfully implementing all of the requirements of a consent decree, but there has to be some recognition of uh limitations related to the time and expense of these things as well.
00:23:41.519 --> 00:23:43.599
And and what about on the investigation side?
00:23:43.759 --> 00:23:51.599
I mean, it takes, it feels like it takes an entire administration's length to get one consent decree done these days.
00:23:51.839 --> 00:24:02.720
Are there ways of doing those faster from an investigation, or is this a like you can't prove something as as big and important as this in a short investigation?
00:24:03.200 --> 00:24:06.000
Yeah, I think it'd be an interesting comparison.
00:24:06.079 --> 00:24:20.880
And you you may have you may be able to see that comparison yourself, Jeff, based on consent decree or pattern and practice investigations from, say, the Obama administration to the compared to the Biden administration when Kristen Clark was head of the civil rights division.
00:24:21.039 --> 00:24:37.920
I think the length of those investigations oftentimes turns on the degree of cooperation and assistance that the the Department of Justice is getting from the local, you know, local agencies, local prosecutor, local law enforcement agency that's involved involved there.
00:24:38.480 --> 00:24:54.559
Where there is tension, where there is tension, there is oftentimes obstruction, uh, not obstruction from a criminal sense necessarily, but there's there's obstruction towards ultimately resolving or reaching some conclusion related to that investigation.
00:24:54.880 --> 00:25:11.519
Whereas where when an agency is voluntarily requesting the support of the Department of Justice, interested in improving, and they're coming to the department asking for that assistance, those types of investigations I've generally found can can move a little bit faster.
00:25:11.680 --> 00:25:12.799
Not always the case, though.
00:25:12.960 --> 00:25:25.039
I think New Orleans was one where I think the mayor of New Orleans initially asked for that support in the investigation itself, still, because of the broad scope of the pattern and practice investigation itself.
00:25:25.119 --> 00:25:30.240
I think New Orleans's consent decree at the time was one of the broadest uh ever implemented.
00:25:30.400 --> 00:25:36.799
The levels of conduct that were being addressed there, I think ultimately led to a longer investigation as well.
00:25:37.200 --> 00:25:37.440
Yeah.
00:25:37.519 --> 00:25:39.920
I mean, usually it feels like it's it's one or two things.
00:25:40.000 --> 00:25:40.960
It's one or two.
00:25:41.680 --> 00:25:43.920
They got there's more 490 paragraphs.
00:25:44.319 --> 00:25:45.440
It was a lot of issues.
00:25:45.599 --> 00:25:46.799
Well, there's a lot of issues.
00:25:47.119 --> 00:25:48.319
Just just everything.
00:25:48.559 --> 00:25:53.519
So obviously, politicization of DOJ has become a hot button issue.
00:25:53.759 --> 00:26:00.079
Um there's, you know, the present lawyer was just just sworn in as the new attorney general.
00:26:00.319 --> 00:26:08.079
Is this something that keeps you up at night, or do you or where do you sort of fall on the spectrum of concern with politicization within DOJ?
00:26:08.559 --> 00:26:09.119
Yeah.
00:26:09.359 --> 00:26:23.440
I I think, you know, unfortunately, partisan politics as they are, you know, this we heard allegations of political politicalization of the department from the last admin related to the last administration as well.
00:26:23.920 --> 00:26:32.880
Uh so I think it just depends on, you know, who's speaking and and and what vantage point you're you're viewing the conduct of the department.
00:26:33.039 --> 00:26:40.960
Sadly, public credibility about the way that the department works is at an all-time low, in my view.
00:26:41.119 --> 00:27:05.920
And so I do think that for us and for the department to be restored to the vantage point of having high credibility publicly, to have it to be viewed as a truly objective arbiter of justice in this country, I think that we have to commit to restoring guardrails to ensure that it is operating as an independent agency, right?
00:27:06.079 --> 00:27:12.160
Separate and apart from the women will of political actors there in Washington.
00:27:12.319 --> 00:27:32.640
And that degree of independence, that principle of independence, the procedures and policies related to independence of that department are were absolutely critical, I think, to ensure that the public viewed the work as being objective, to being fair, to not being partisan, to not being subject to fear or favor.
00:27:33.279 --> 00:27:40.880
Um that that independence is ultimately, I think, would would would help the department long term.
00:27:41.039 --> 00:27:53.680
And both sides of the political eye, I think, have to be committed to to whether it's statutes, whether it's regulations, we have to do something to ensure that that independence is restored.
00:27:53.920 --> 00:28:04.000
In in a lot of ways, you know, this this particular administration uh ran roughshod over some of what we thought were those guardrails.
00:28:04.240 --> 00:28:20.640
Those have to be thicker, they have to be more sturdy, whether you're talking about the way the department operates, whether you're talking about protections for uh its civil servants, that independence is ultimately the source of the department's credibility long-term.
00:28:21.039 --> 00:28:34.000
So if you were like czar, someone above the AG, um and you could just implement whatever you wanted to implement, what are what would some of those guardrails look like that you know, maybe the the next attorney general might want to look at?
00:28:34.400 --> 00:28:34.799
Yeah.
00:28:35.039 --> 00:28:44.079
And I and I'll just note, by the way, the the curr our current, our new attorney general is someone who I started out with as uh as an assistant U.S.
00:28:44.160 --> 00:28:45.680
attorney in Southern District of New York.
00:28:45.920 --> 00:28:49.759
We were we started out as general crimes together in Southern District.
00:28:49.920 --> 00:29:04.319
And and so I I do know Todd as someone who who knows and has deep experience in many of the policies, procedures, and practices of the department in past administrations.
00:29:04.559 --> 00:29:21.759
I I think to your question about what needs to be implemented long term, my view of this is that it's gonna require more than internal policies, guidance about the way that the department is allowed to communicate with political actors and the like.
00:29:21.839 --> 00:29:29.599
Many of those were were limited to guidance and principles that were promulgated by the department itself.
00:29:29.759 --> 00:29:36.799
I think we're gonna need some statutory action from Congress to ensure that level of independence is put in place and codified.
00:29:37.200 --> 00:29:38.559
So we need Congress.
00:29:38.799 --> 00:29:39.119
All right.
00:29:39.359 --> 00:29:39.759
I do.
00:29:39.920 --> 00:29:40.240
I do.
00:29:40.319 --> 00:30:18.160
And look, I I know that we none of us feel confident about the way that Congress necessarily can reach uh reach consensus on some of these issues, but I I do think it's ultimately going to require, Jeff, like we're gonna have to say, we as a society, we need to have independent decision makers about our criminal justice system, about our justice system generally, and what can we do to make sure that that independence exists and and hopefully uh we are able to find the right political actors that that appreciate that concern and are able to re reach the appropriate consensus.
00:30:18.640 --> 00:30:22.240
Well, you know, just just have to hold our breath until Congress acts, is what I'm hearing.
00:30:22.400 --> 00:30:41.200
Also that uh I I I do I mean, look, I think you know in the absence of of congressional action, you know, there are there are certainly executive orders and the like that uh that a president could could implement in very quickly, as we've seen, to stand up or uh reinitiate some of that independence.
00:30:41.279 --> 00:30:50.559
And and so I think that would be the fastest way for us to if if the administration changes and those priorities change or to implement or begin implementing that level of independence.
00:30:50.720 --> 00:30:53.920
But it's gonna take it's gonna take more than that, I think.
00:30:54.319 --> 00:30:56.319
It's gonna take more than just an executive order.
00:30:56.640 --> 00:31:08.559
And I'll throw out if your uh former colleague, the attorney general, is listening or or is is interested in coming on the program and wants to discuss his plans with the with uh DOJ, you still are standing in your engineer, so just throw that out there.
00:31:08.880 --> 00:31:12.640
So I I have two uh two more questions and then I'll let you go.
00:31:12.799 --> 00:31:21.920
But first, uh I I've been asking this, and I'm really curious to hear your answer, because I think that you missed sort of the AI craze when you were with DOJ.
00:31:22.480 --> 00:31:28.079
Do you see a role for AI within DOJ, within the legal profession in general?
00:31:28.319 --> 00:31:41.039
Obviously, there's whenever you hear about l AI in the law or legal or lawyers using it, it's you know, a lawyer used AI to craft a brief and it had all of these, you know, incorrect citations, solutionations.
00:31:41.759 --> 00:31:48.960
What is the path forward here with with AI as a tool that you want people to be able to use, but also it's important that they're not make mistakes?
00:31:49.279 --> 00:31:50.000
Yeah, yeah.
00:31:50.160 --> 00:32:00.079
Well, it's it's certainly here uh and it's here to stay from what I can appreciate related to any number of aspects of our society and the legal profession is no different from that.
00:32:00.319 --> 00:32:23.680
Our law firm, like a lot of a lot of the law firms, are making deep investments in terms of making sure that we are developing the right approaches, use of AI within our practice, doing so safely, doing so, doing so consistent with our obligations in representing our clients, and to and and consistent with our obligations of professional responsibility as well.
00:32:24.079 --> 00:32:36.319
Uh and so a lot of the safeguards that you are seeing put in place to prevent our our law firm from being the next one that's being castigated by a court, those are important.
00:32:36.400 --> 00:32:48.880
And we take a lot of time, take a lot of pride, and we take a lot of time in terms of ensuring that all of our attorneys and staff members are utilizing AI safely, appropriately, but but consistently.
00:32:49.039 --> 00:32:51.119
I mean, look, like I said, this is not going away.
00:32:51.200 --> 00:33:01.359
So one of our professional responsibilities is for each of our attorneys, young and old, to become proficient in the use of AI in the practice of law.
00:33:01.519 --> 00:33:09.519
And so that has become that training aspect of the way that this is being rolled out for us is also obviously very critical as well.
00:33:10.000 --> 00:33:31.359
Uh just from the Department of Justice standpoint, I will say I can recall the the Deputy Tenor Attorney General Lisa Monaco issuing a memo where she said, you know, look, this this is we're seeing AI become more and more prevalent in criminality that we are seeing across the country and across the globe.
00:33:31.519 --> 00:33:36.240
Uh, but it hasn't necessarily changed what is a crime.
00:33:36.400 --> 00:34:04.000
It is simply exacerbating the complexity at times, perhaps exacerbating the type of victims, the scope and magnitude of victimhood that we're seeing as a result of some of whether you're talking about identity thefts, uh, other types of frauds, human trafficking, drug trafficking, and the like, it becomes uh uh criminal conduct that becomes magnified, perhaps as the use of AI is employed there.
00:34:04.160 --> 00:34:16.320
And as a result, the department, I think, views, views the use of AI and in conducting criminality as a appropriately so an aggravating circumstance.
00:34:16.480 --> 00:34:36.239
And you're seeing, I think you're gonna continue to see the department, uh, regardless of the administration, try to pursue greater sentences, increase penalties for individuals that have utilized AI as a as an aggravating factor in terms of increasing the impact of their criminal conduct.
00:34:36.320 --> 00:34:40.239
And I think that's appropriately uh an appropriate uh focus for the department.
00:34:40.559 --> 00:34:47.920
I can't imagine trying to to police and prosecute fraud and in the age of deep fakes and just the ability to do it.
00:34:48.400 --> 00:34:48.960
So yeah.
00:34:49.119 --> 00:35:00.079
Well, then it does it does require you to have, and then this is the department writ large, including, you know, including the the the DEA, ATF, and especially FBI.
00:35:00.559 --> 00:35:22.880
Uh, it requires you to have the, you know, not just the lawyers or the accountants, but you need the data, the data analysts, you know, and uh and other uh resources that understand this technology, understand how it can be abused, but also understand how it can be utilized appropriately by law enforcement uh in their efforts as well.
00:35:23.039 --> 00:35:27.039
And so it's also it's an investment from the department standpoint.
00:35:27.199 --> 00:35:40.559
You know, we can't have our agents uh still utilizing old school research, you know, law enforcement efforts from the 20th century to combat a 21st century criminal uh criminal tool like AI.
00:35:41.519 --> 00:35:47.440
So my my last question, which I probably should have led with because it's the most important, but any predictions for the Saints this season?
00:35:49.039 --> 00:35:53.519
I've had a lot of Eagles fans on and happened.
00:35:54.079 --> 00:35:59.039
I'm I'm I'm uh I'm optimistic for a winning season.
00:35:59.360 --> 00:36:00.719
A winning record.
00:36:01.199 --> 00:36:02.400
That's what I'm hoping for.
00:36:02.559 --> 00:36:05.360
I think that'd be a big step for us to have a winning record this year.
00:36:05.679 --> 00:36:07.280
You're an achievement team and no.
00:36:09.599 --> 00:36:13.760
I think we have to keep I think we gotta keep uh expectations in check here.
00:36:13.920 --> 00:36:21.599
You know, we I know folks are very excited about our our young quarterback, but he is uh he is just entering his second season.
00:36:21.679 --> 00:36:26.400
I'm hoping he takes the step forward, but we're gonna keep expectations in check here.
00:36:26.719 --> 00:36:27.119
All right.
00:36:27.280 --> 00:36:29.039
So championship for bust.
00:36:29.199 --> 00:36:29.519
I hear it.
00:36:29.679 --> 00:36:31.360
I think it's awful night.
00:36:31.519 --> 00:36:32.960
Kenneth, thank you so much for joining me.
00:36:33.039 --> 00:36:33.840
This has been a great conversation.
00:36:33.920 --> 00:36:34.400
I really appreciate it.
00:36:35.440 --> 00:36:36.400
Always great to talk to you, bro.
00:36:36.960 --> 00:36:38.960
Thanks for listening to the Jeffalytics Podcast.
00:36:39.039 --> 00:36:45.360
Be sure to subscribe and to learn more, head on over to ahdatalytics.com for more information and previous episodes.
00:36:45.599 --> 00:36:49.840
If you like what you heard, please leave a glowing review, which will help others to discover the show.
00:36:50.000 --> 00:36:51.840
Until next time, I'm Jeff Asher.
00:00:00.800 --> 00:00:03.919
I'm Jeff Asher, and this is the Jeffalytics Podcast.
00:00:04.160 --> 00:00:06.480
The Department of Justice encompasses nearly 100 U.S.
00:00:06.559 --> 00:00:13.279
attorneys' offices nationwide, employs thousands of prosecutors, and touches basically every dimension of public safety in America.
00:00:13.519 --> 00:00:16.480
But most people have no idea how any of it actually works.
00:00:16.719 --> 00:00:19.039
Today's guest, Kenth Pole, does.
00:00:19.199 --> 00:00:26.239
A native New Orleanian who lost his brother to gun violence on the city streets in 2004, Kenneth spent the next two decades inside DOJ.
00:00:26.559 --> 00:00:27.600
From Assistant U.S.
00:00:27.679 --> 00:00:30.079
Attorney in the Southern District of New York to U.S.
00:00:30.160 --> 00:00:39.840
Attorney in New Orleans to Assistant Attorney General heading the entire criminal division, overseeing 1,400 people across 17 sections and operations in over 70 countries.
00:00:40.079 --> 00:00:50.399
In this episode, Kenneth talks about what that vantage point actually reveals, how data moves to the department, where it breaks down, and why prosecutors so rarely communicate the full scope of what they do.
00:00:50.640 --> 00:00:59.359
We also get into consent decrees, the politics of DOJ independence, and why restoring the department's credibility is going to require more than just a change in administration.
00:00:59.520 --> 00:01:00.560
Let's get started.
00:01:00.799 --> 00:01:02.880
My guest today is Kenneth Poley.
00:01:02.960 --> 00:01:03.920
Kenneth, how are you doing?
00:01:04.159 --> 00:01:05.280
Good to see you, good man.
00:01:05.760 --> 00:01:06.959
Good to see you as well.
00:01:07.200 --> 00:01:10.640
So, my first question to every guest, I want to ask you as well what is your background?
00:01:10.719 --> 00:01:11.760
What brings you here today?
00:01:12.000 --> 00:01:13.840
Uh well, it's a pleasure to see you again.
00:01:14.079 --> 00:01:14.959
Pleasure to join you.
00:01:15.120 --> 00:01:23.680
Longtime friends, of course, from our time in New Orleans, native New Orleanian, born and raised there, lots of family still there.
00:01:24.079 --> 00:01:29.040
Left New Orleans for college or for Harvard and then Georgetown for law school.
00:01:29.359 --> 00:01:33.840
Have lived and practiced law primarily on the East Coast.
00:01:34.000 --> 00:01:40.239
I have spent about half of my career in private practice, mostly in white-collar criminal defense.
00:01:40.400 --> 00:01:44.319
Uh, the other half has been in the Department of Justice.
00:01:44.480 --> 00:01:46.640
So I've I've served as an assistant U.S.
00:01:46.719 --> 00:01:48.719
attorney in the Southern District of New York.
00:01:49.120 --> 00:01:55.920
I was, of course, the United States attorney in our hometown of New Orleans, which is what brought us together many years ago.
00:01:56.079 --> 00:02:07.840
And then most recently from 2021 to 23, I served as the assistant attorney general and head of the criminal division of the Department of Justice in Washington, D.C.
00:02:08.560 --> 00:02:13.280
Now I currently serve as I'm a partner at Sidley Austin in Washington now.
00:02:14.000 --> 00:02:18.159
And and how did you get into prosecution and the criminal justice side of things?
00:02:18.479 --> 00:02:19.120
Yeah.
00:02:19.520 --> 00:02:22.719
Well, like I said, I started my career in private practice.
00:02:22.879 --> 00:02:29.280
I was in a white, primarily white-collar criminal defense practice that was headed by former prosecutors.
00:02:29.439 --> 00:02:41.199
So I think the idea in terms of uh developing those relationships in the law, I had great mentors that that always pointed me towards the possibility of becoming a prosecutor eventually.
00:02:41.520 --> 00:02:54.159
Um the the key event, I would say, in my life that led me to ultimately decide to become a prosecutor was the death of my brother in New Orleans in 2004.
00:02:54.400 --> 00:02:58.960
He died very tragically and very violently on the streets of New Orleans.
00:02:59.120 --> 00:03:17.680
And it was his death that really motivated me to become a prosecutor, really focused on becoming a prosecutor in my hometown of New Orleans in the hope of preventing that type of pain and tragedy and loss for other family members and other citizens of the of the city.
00:03:17.919 --> 00:03:21.759
And so 2004, I made a decision that to apply to the U.S.
00:03:21.919 --> 00:03:23.680
attorney's office in New Orleans.
00:03:24.000 --> 00:03:28.719
2005, early August of 05, I actually got the job as an assistant U.S.
00:03:28.879 --> 00:03:30.080
attorney in New Orleans.
00:03:30.319 --> 00:03:33.039
A good job to a good time to have that job.
00:03:33.360 --> 00:03:46.159
Yeah, because by the end of that month, of course, Hurricane Katrina hit, and uh we were still living in New York, uh, but of course, our family back home was uh was in some upheaval like the rest of the region.
00:03:46.479 --> 00:03:52.159
We decided ultimately not to move to New Orleans at that time, and I applied to the U.S.
00:03:52.319 --> 00:04:03.840
Attorney's Office in New York and ultimately did that job as an A USA in New York, but of course always had an eye towards eventually returning back home, which is what we did in 2010.
00:04:03.919 --> 00:04:09.759
And then eventually, of course, I got the opportunity to lead that office that I originally applied to.
00:04:09.919 --> 00:04:16.879
I tell my my colleagues and friends from Southern District of New York, which of course is oftentimes lauded as the premier U.S.
00:04:16.959 --> 00:04:18.720
attorney's office in the country.
00:04:18.879 --> 00:04:22.879
It's important for them to remember that that was really my second choice as U.S.
00:04:22.959 --> 00:04:24.079
attorney's offices.
00:04:24.160 --> 00:04:26.000
I always really wanted to be in New Orleans.
00:04:26.079 --> 00:04:28.560
So it was a it was a great honor to lead that office.
00:04:28.959 --> 00:04:36.959
Are you the only person that has ever said your primary choice for leadership with the DOJR is New York or New Orleans, New York?
00:04:37.279 --> 00:04:39.519
That's why it's important to remind them of that.
00:04:39.680 --> 00:04:56.879
So uh speaking of New Orleans, you know, you were there, you and I were there together in that sort of 2012 to 2015 time frame-ish when the city was undergoing a lot of changes post-Katrina, but also in terms of its approach to gun violence.
00:04:57.120 --> 00:05:05.199
The 90s and the early 2000s and that immediate post-Catrina period was so violent in New Orleans, and they've come such a long way.
00:05:05.839 --> 00:05:09.439
Uh do you have any thoughts on sort of like what have been the drivers?
00:05:09.519 --> 00:05:15.920
We've seen success coming from the city, and we've also seen success in the last few years where the city really hasn't done a ton.
00:05:16.160 --> 00:05:21.199
What do you think of when you think of that this sort of sea change in violence in New Orleans?
00:05:21.519 --> 00:05:22.000
Yeah.
00:05:22.240 --> 00:05:29.199
Well, I I do think that that time period, particularly during that, was during Mayor Landrew's administration.
00:05:29.360 --> 00:05:54.720
I think he and his team did a an outstanding job of really canvassing policy makers and and leading criminologists from across the country to really bring in world-class approaches to trying to really intervene in at the time what was a really crippling level of violence in the city of New Orleans and in other parts of this country.
00:05:54.879 --> 00:06:10.560
And so some of the some of the intervention efforts that I think we saw in terms of ceasefire and the like that were having success in other parts of the country, you know, having a true investment in those types of those types of efforts in New Orleans was important.
00:06:10.800 --> 00:06:25.759
Of course, we also had, you know, we had some of the some of the efforts related to really amplifying our efforts on the coordination of state, local, and federal law enforcement that was that was critical at the time, right?
00:06:26.079 --> 00:06:32.000
At times those law enforcement efforts are quite siloed and at times even in tension with one another.
00:06:32.240 --> 00:06:50.000
But I think that was a renaissance period where we saw tremendous amounts of coordination across law enforcement, across, you know, federal, state, and local to really make a difference in terms of taking the worst of the worst off of the streets of New Orleans and the in in the region of Southeast Louisiana.
00:06:50.319 --> 00:06:55.040
So you're you're promoted up the chain and you're at sort of big DOJ.
00:06:55.360 --> 00:06:56.000
What is that like?
00:06:56.079 --> 00:07:00.160
And I know a lot of people think of DOJ as sort of this monolith within the leadership.
00:07:00.319 --> 00:07:05.040
Can you talk through how sort of the executive level is structured and how that operates?
00:07:05.360 --> 00:07:05.839
Yeah.
00:07:06.160 --> 00:07:07.839
Well, you know, being a U.S.
00:07:08.000 --> 00:07:09.680
attorney, you know, there's 94 U.S.
00:07:09.759 --> 00:07:11.040
attorneys or 93 U.S.
00:07:11.120 --> 00:07:12.399
attorneys, 94 U.S.
00:07:12.560 --> 00:07:19.040
attorneys' offices, all reporting up to the deputy attorney general and then ultimately up to the attorney general.
00:07:19.199 --> 00:07:21.439
My boss didn't stay didn't change it all, right?
00:07:21.600 --> 00:07:26.560
As as uh as an assistant attorney general, I still reported up to the deputy attorney general.
00:07:26.800 --> 00:07:31.839
The big difference, of course, is that instead of instead of supervising one regional U.S.
00:07:32.000 --> 00:07:48.959
attorney's office, I was now in charge of supervising 1,400 public servants across 17 different sections, uh, covering the entire portfolio and spectrum of criminal law enforcement priorities for the Department of Justice.
00:07:49.199 --> 00:07:52.399
We had employees that sat not just in Washington, D.C.
00:07:52.720 --> 00:07:58.319
They sat in many of the significant regions of the country and most of our major cities.
00:07:58.480 --> 00:08:10.319
And indeed, we had employees when you talk about some of the some of the law enforcement training, prosecutorial training, MLATs and the like that we had representing us in other countries.
00:08:10.480 --> 00:08:17.680
We actually had employees sitting in over 70 countries across the globe that all reported up through the criminal division.
00:08:17.759 --> 00:08:23.360
And so that international component of the work that we did was in many ways pretty eye-opening for me.
00:08:23.439 --> 00:08:35.600
I wasn't actually aware of how how expansive the mandate of the criminal division was, uh, but but very quickly became aware of how much of a priority it is for the work of the department.
00:08:35.919 --> 00:08:42.320
And what's sort of your elevator pitch type description of what the criminal justice excuse me, the criminal division does within DOJ?
00:08:43.840 --> 00:08:54.559
Yeah, I would say that the elevator pitch is, you know, when we have 1,400 public servants covering every aspect of criminal law enforcement for the department.
00:08:54.799 --> 00:09:08.720
That includes everything from the fraud section to public integrity to uh to international law enforcement training and prosecutorial training, all of the priorities of the Department of Justice on the criminal side.
00:09:08.960 --> 00:09:11.200
And how did you rely on data in your work?
00:09:11.440 --> 00:09:12.720
Uh so it's pretty interesting.
00:09:12.799 --> 00:09:28.240
So we uh we actually had an entire section that was focused on on data analytics and in a lot of ways was the number crunchers for the success of criminal law enforcement for the Department of Justice that was based in the criminal division.
00:09:28.399 --> 00:09:41.919
A lot of a lot of the data that we worked helped, uh that we that we focused on was critical to understanding the success of our prosecutorial efforts, uh, of sentencing outcomes.
00:09:42.080 --> 00:09:56.320
Uh, we had representatives that sat on on many of the judicial and sentencing commissioning efforts and have done so for decades, frankly, helping to inform some of the considerations of those various bodies.
00:09:56.639 --> 00:10:00.559
And so we use we use data quite a bit during our jobs there.
00:10:00.960 --> 00:10:10.080
And did you have sort of any any workarounds when you lack data or when one of the big complaints of crime data is that it's just oftentimes so slow or bulky?
00:10:10.240 --> 00:10:13.120
Are there workarounds from a senior level that you used?
00:10:13.519 --> 00:10:26.480
Yeah, I mean, look, I think the the workaround for the Department of Justice in that context, and it's it's because of the expansive nature of the organization, I think quite frequently utilizing the U.S.
00:10:26.639 --> 00:10:38.399
attorney's offices directly, both analytical and anecdotal evidence to support decision making that the department was was making from a policy perspective.
00:10:38.639 --> 00:10:43.600
You know, we could we could convene a call with with a group of U.S.
00:10:43.679 --> 00:10:44.879
attorneys uh U.S.
00:10:44.960 --> 00:10:56.480
attorneys offices to talk about a particular issue if we were considering making a change in terms of how we approached gun violence prosecutions or human trafficking prosecutions.
00:10:56.799 --> 00:10:57.440
The the U.S.
00:10:57.519 --> 00:11:12.480
Attorney's Office community itself also has a number of of committees and organizations, including the Attorney General's advisory committee, that help advise, help advise the attorney general and the deputy attorney general on those types of decisions as well.
00:11:12.639 --> 00:11:31.840
So the that would oftentimes be the way that we were able to get closer real-time data, real-time information about what folks are seeing on the ground in various areas of the of the country that would then ultimately help inform decision making in the absence of having, you know, raw historical data.
00:11:32.720 --> 00:11:42.080
One of my sort of complaints, and we see this with prosecutors frequently, and we at the district attorney type level, and we see it certainly with with the U.S.
00:11:42.159 --> 00:11:49.919
attorney level as well, is that it feels like what they do is only communicated in terms of prosecution.
00:11:50.240 --> 00:11:55.600
Um, we tried this murder case and they were found guilty and all of this.
00:11:55.679 --> 00:12:02.720
And obviously DOJ has a nearly spectacular track record when it uh if the case goes style, it's for all of us that you're going to win it.
00:12:02.960 --> 00:12:05.679
Are there are there ways of communicating?
00:12:05.759 --> 00:12:08.639
Because I'm I'm really interested in sort of the communication element of this.
00:12:08.799 --> 00:12:15.919
Yeah, prosecution is so deep and the prosecutor's role is so deep, but often we only see this very tiny slice.
00:12:16.159 --> 00:12:33.759
Is are there ways that you would recommend, or maybe not, that the the US attorneys or local prosecutors can better communicate all of the work that they're doing so that that the public can better understand how they fit into the public safety atmosphere environment better?
00:12:34.240 --> 00:12:37.279
Yeah, I I I think this is an important issue, Jeff.
00:12:37.360 --> 00:12:49.840
And I I can't I'm not in the Department of Justice now, so I can't can't necessarily speak um to to how they frame this, this particular issue of how we communicate the the work of U.S.
00:12:49.919 --> 00:12:54.159
attorneys' offices or communicate the work of AUSAs and U.S.
00:12:54.240 --> 00:12:54.799
attorneys.
00:12:54.960 --> 00:13:01.200
But I I'll talk uh about the way that you know when I was becoming a U.S.
00:13:01.279 --> 00:13:09.120
attorney and speaking with leadership like you know, Eric Holder was the was the the attorney general at the time.
00:13:09.360 --> 00:13:16.799
And he would always frame this as you are not merely prosecutors, you are community problem solvers.
00:13:17.120 --> 00:13:17.360
Right.
00:13:18.080 --> 00:13:38.879
The notion being that appreciating the the power and authority that comes with investigating, prosecuting, sentencing, you know, leading to greater deterrence, you know, taking taking bad actors off of the street and and limiting their ability to replicate their criminality, all of those are important priorities for these offices.
00:13:39.039 --> 00:13:46.720
At the same time, that that is not the only way for us to achieve safety in our communities, right?
00:13:46.879 --> 00:14:04.720
And so if you know that, for example, your educational system uh is struggling with issues of truancy, and that may be leading to uh uh to greater youth violence in your communities, or it's a it's a it's it's a symptom of of greater youth violence in your community.
00:14:04.879 --> 00:14:26.159
Perhaps instead of just prosecuting your way towards addressing that issue, you you partner with educators, you partner with with with other support net uh systems within that community to help change the trajectory of those young people in a different way, away from criminality, away from turancy, and towards a more positive outcome.
00:14:26.399 --> 00:14:57.759
If you are seeing uh uh other issues related to your healthcare system, for example, and how that might be affecting safety in your community, issues of transportation, issues of of food, food security, uh uh issues of housing, all of these are issues that in the in the the the immediate kind of stereotypical fashioning of what a prosecutor, quote unquote, can do or a US attorney can do is clearly outside the scope.
00:14:57.840 --> 00:15:01.039
You know, you're not process that's not about prosecuting cases.
00:15:01.279 --> 00:15:04.240
That's not about making sure people go to jail.
00:15:04.399 --> 00:15:14.399
Uh, but those are all things that go to the bottom line of what you should be trying to achieve in that role, and that is increasing public safety.
00:15:14.559 --> 00:15:20.480
And that's where I think the framing of serving as a community problem solver really, really takes root.
00:15:20.879 --> 00:15:21.120
Yeah.
00:15:21.200 --> 00:15:24.720
And it it it feels like, you know, hey, crime is going down.
00:15:24.799 --> 00:15:36.240
Well, it's because of these, you know, very specific prosecutions we made, and crime is going up, and either it's ignored completely or it's we need to do more of the prosecutions, and we completely move that bigger angle.
00:15:36.639 --> 00:15:37.759
Yeah, no, that's right.
00:15:37.919 --> 00:15:38.320
That's right.
00:15:38.399 --> 00:15:58.480
And I and this this is there have been efforts, you know, there were at times different, different groups I can think of, you know, like the Brennan Center, for example, that would really press upon the Department of Justice, you know, look, we want you to to utilize other ways of measuring the success of your offices, right?
00:15:58.639 --> 00:16:08.000
Not just, you know, uh investigations, sentencing trials, you know, and the like, but you know, what are what are the outcomes within your community?
00:16:08.159 --> 00:16:12.639
Are you seeing uh are you seeing decreased homicides?
00:16:12.799 --> 00:16:15.919
Are you seeing greater safety in schools?
00:16:16.080 --> 00:16:19.679
Uh, are you seeing increases in graduation rate rate?
00:16:19.840 --> 00:16:27.360
I mean, is there any number of ways that you could kind of imagine a community being safer beyond how many people are locking up?
00:16:27.519 --> 00:16:33.200
And that's, you know, ultimately, I think that was one of the things that was was very important to me.
00:16:33.279 --> 00:16:39.679
You know, I was I was listening to the recent podcast that you had with our good friend Alex Papacristos.
00:16:39.759 --> 00:16:45.759
And, you know, I I I I remember meeting him and learning a little bit about his uh his research.
00:16:46.000 --> 00:16:53.440
And and of course, you were instrumental in helping us reimagine how we could utilize that type of data.
00:16:53.840 --> 00:17:05.440
You know, uh the that's that social networking uh information could be used to identify who we might think are gonna be the next shooters.
00:17:05.920 --> 00:17:08.799
And you could focus on it from an enforcement angle.
00:17:09.920 --> 00:17:19.920
At the same time, you could really focus on it as who's gonna be the next victims and what do we do to try to intervene to prevent them from becoming those victims.
00:17:20.079 --> 00:17:53.599
And ultimately it was that it was that reading of the data which led us to develop Crescent City Keepers, which was a you know a groundbreaking mentorship program that we were identifying young people that were identified as likely next victims, you know, four, 13, 14, 15-year-olds on the streets of New Orleans, and not wait until they're shot, not wait until we lose their lives, but intervene in their lives and intervene in the lives of their families to give them the support to have long-term success.
00:17:53.759 --> 00:17:59.039
And those are not easy efforts to undertake, but obviously very critical.
00:17:59.200 --> 00:18:04.160
And again, going to the long-term objective of increasing safety.
00:18:05.279 --> 00:18:14.240
Are there ways to improve the data flow from prosecutors, either at the local or the federal or the state level, to the public?
00:18:14.400 --> 00:18:17.519
I mean, we see it in policing excellent open data.
00:18:17.839 --> 00:18:17.920
Yeah.
00:18:18.160 --> 00:18:24.799
Other than Larry Krasner's office, maybe Kim Fox, when she was in Chicago, did a great job of publicizing data.
00:18:24.960 --> 00:18:29.039
I don't think they've continued that program now that she's no longer the district attorney.
00:18:29.200 --> 00:18:42.240
But there's so little public data, just the raw stuff, you know, remove all the PMI and all that, but raw data on how offices are working that allows the public to understand it and to evaluate it.
00:18:42.559 --> 00:18:42.720
Yeah.
00:18:43.119 --> 00:18:47.359
Is that a pipe dream that we get better prosecution data or is that proper?
00:18:47.920 --> 00:18:54.079
I think it I think the difficulty, of course, is that we don't have, you know, it's not one criminal justice system.
00:18:54.240 --> 00:19:04.319
It's, you know, we really have thousands of criminal justice systems from federal to the way various localities operate to state level law enforcement.
00:19:04.559 --> 00:19:17.519
And so the desperate priorities prioritization of how we gather and report out data becomes a challenge uh when you're dealing with that many different systems.
00:19:17.759 --> 00:19:28.240
With that said, I do think this is an area where the Department of Justice can really play an important role, you know, primarily through the purse strings.
00:19:28.319 --> 00:19:41.839
And again, I can only speak to the way that you know the department could and and did at times handle marshalling resources to ensure that there are some national, national implementation of priorities.
00:19:42.079 --> 00:19:51.279
But, you know, look, there are any number of law enforcement agencies and prosecutorial offices that get dollars from the Department of Justice, right?
00:19:51.440 --> 00:20:09.440
And so if if gathering and reporting out proper data was a priority for the attorney general, and he or she tied that funding as a prerequisite, you know, to that provoid providing that type of data became a prerequisite to getting those dollars.
00:20:09.599 --> 00:20:20.400
I think that's the closest that we could get uh to to ensuring in that that type of priority funnels down to to as many law enforcement agencies and cross creditorial offices as possible.
00:20:20.559 --> 00:20:30.400
You know, you kind of see, you know, one of the one of the ways, for example, that that happened primarily during Democratic administrations is through the consent decrees, right?
00:20:30.480 --> 00:20:41.119
When you re when you have a city that's under a consent decree, typically increased data reporting, data gathering is one of the factors that you see there.
00:20:41.279 --> 00:20:45.440
We definitely saw that when when New Orleans was under the consent decree there.
00:20:45.920 --> 00:20:52.960
That was the I was wondering how I was going to segue to my next question I've written down, which is is there a future for consent decrees with law enforcement?
00:20:53.039 --> 00:20:57.599
I mean, New Orleans is sort of heading out of it, and we were together at the baby steps of it.
00:20:57.759 --> 00:21:01.680
There's not new investigations happening and haven't for years.
00:21:01.920 --> 00:21:12.720
And the ones that have happened have been really slow, which I think makes it difficult to maintain these if it's gonna be a partisan happens under Democratic administrations and not Republican ones.
00:21:12.799 --> 00:21:14.480
So what it what do you see as the future there?
00:21:14.799 --> 00:21:24.079
Yeah, I as as I noted, I think the the partisan nature of of how these are received and viewed publicly is a concern.
00:21:24.240 --> 00:21:29.599
And and as a result, you don't really see much of them right now in the Republican administrations.
00:21:29.839 --> 00:21:57.599
What I will say though is I think the Minneapolis model that you're seeing where you know a state, a city, a locality, a law enforcement department voluntarily says we are we want to be better, we want to improve, we want to focus on whatever area of improving this agency is necessary, and we we're gonna put the dollars behind it to make it happen.
00:21:57.839 --> 00:21:59.519
I think that model can have.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:05.359
Some long-term success, regardless of whether a Democrat or Republican is sitting in the White House.
00:22:05.519 --> 00:22:35.920
You know, we did see a number of agencies begin to take on that type of a request, a voluntary request for additional support from the Department of Justice, outside of there being a pattern and practice investigation, them coming to the civil rights division and saying we want to have improvements in this particular aspect of the way that we are doing our operations, which I think that type of a perspective on this work can be can be long-term successful.
00:22:36.079 --> 00:22:52.000
I think some of the other challenges that, you know, frankly, there is alignment, I think, on for Democrats and Republicans on some aspects of improving consent decrees, namely the length of time of these consent decrees and the cost, the cost related to them.
00:22:52.240 --> 00:22:58.079
You know, Vanita Gupta issued some guidance under the Biden administration related to both aspects of that.
00:22:58.240 --> 00:23:05.359
I think Republicans you see have always focused on those as being critical detractors of the success of these things.
00:23:05.519 --> 00:23:07.599
I think there is some alignment related to that.
00:23:07.759 --> 00:23:14.400
So where you have a discrete commitment of time and dollars to these things, that they're not expected.
00:23:14.640 --> 00:23:20.319
You know, New Orleans, I think, was expected to be somewhere between three and five years or so.
00:23:20.480 --> 00:23:25.039
You know, we're over well over a decade before you're seeing that wind down.
00:23:25.279 --> 00:23:26.799
There has to be some urgency.
00:23:26.960 --> 00:23:40.960
We obviously don't want to lift up the pressure to can successfully implementing all of the requirements of a consent decree, but there has to be some recognition of uh limitations related to the time and expense of these things as well.
00:23:41.519 --> 00:23:43.599
And and what about on the investigation side?
00:23:43.759 --> 00:23:51.599
I mean, it takes, it feels like it takes an entire administration's length to get one consent decree done these days.
00:23:51.839 --> 00:24:02.720
Are there ways of doing those faster from an investigation, or is this a like you can't prove something as as big and important as this in a short investigation?
00:24:03.200 --> 00:24:06.000
Yeah, I think it'd be an interesting comparison.
00:24:06.079 --> 00:24:20.880
And you you may have you may be able to see that comparison yourself, Jeff, based on consent decree or pattern and practice investigations from, say, the Obama administration to the compared to the Biden administration when Kristen Clark was head of the civil rights division.
00:24:21.039 --> 00:24:37.920
I think the length of those investigations oftentimes turns on the degree of cooperation and assistance that the the Department of Justice is getting from the local, you know, local agencies, local prosecutor, local law enforcement agency that's involved involved there.
00:24:38.480 --> 00:24:54.559
Where there is tension, where there is tension, there is oftentimes obstruction, uh, not obstruction from a criminal sense necessarily, but there's there's obstruction towards ultimately resolving or reaching some conclusion related to that investigation.
00:24:54.880 --> 00:25:11.519
Whereas where when an agency is voluntarily requesting the support of the Department of Justice, interested in improving, and they're coming to the department asking for that assistance, those types of investigations I've generally found can can move a little bit faster.
00:25:11.680 --> 00:25:12.799
Not always the case, though.
00:25:12.960 --> 00:25:25.039
I think New Orleans was one where I think the mayor of New Orleans initially asked for that support in the investigation itself, still, because of the broad scope of the pattern and practice investigation itself.
00:25:25.119 --> 00:25:30.240
I think New Orleans's consent decree at the time was one of the broadest uh ever implemented.
00:25:30.400 --> 00:25:36.799
The levels of conduct that were being addressed there, I think ultimately led to a longer investigation as well.
00:25:37.200 --> 00:25:37.440
Yeah.
00:25:37.519 --> 00:25:39.920
I mean, usually it feels like it's it's one or two things.
00:25:40.000 --> 00:25:40.960
It's one or two.
00:25:41.680 --> 00:25:43.920
They got there's more 490 paragraphs.
00:25:44.319 --> 00:25:45.440
It was a lot of issues.
00:25:45.599 --> 00:25:46.799
Well, there's a lot of issues.
00:25:47.119 --> 00:25:48.319
Just just everything.
00:25:48.559 --> 00:25:53.519
So obviously, politicization of DOJ has become a hot button issue.
00:25:53.759 --> 00:26:00.079
Um there's, you know, the present lawyer was just just sworn in as the new attorney general.
00:26:00.319 --> 00:26:08.079
Is this something that keeps you up at night, or do you or where do you sort of fall on the spectrum of concern with politicization within DOJ?
00:26:08.559 --> 00:26:09.119
Yeah.
00:26:09.359 --> 00:26:23.440
I I think, you know, unfortunately, partisan politics as they are, you know, this we heard allegations of political politicalization of the department from the last admin related to the last administration as well.
00:26:23.920 --> 00:26:32.880
Uh so I think it just depends on, you know, who's speaking and and and what vantage point you're you're viewing the conduct of the department.
00:26:33.039 --> 00:26:40.960
Sadly, public credibility about the way that the department works is at an all-time low, in my view.
00:26:41.119 --> 00:27:05.920
And so I do think that for us and for the department to be restored to the vantage point of having high credibility publicly, to have it to be viewed as a truly objective arbiter of justice in this country, I think that we have to commit to restoring guardrails to ensure that it is operating as an independent agency, right?
00:27:06.079 --> 00:27:12.160
Separate and apart from the women will of political actors there in Washington.
00:27:12.319 --> 00:27:32.640
And that degree of independence, that principle of independence, the procedures and policies related to independence of that department are were absolutely critical, I think, to ensure that the public viewed the work as being objective, to being fair, to not being partisan, to not being subject to fear or favor.
00:27:33.279 --> 00:27:40.880
Um that that independence is ultimately, I think, would would would help the department long term.
00:27:41.039 --> 00:27:53.680
And both sides of the political eye, I think, have to be committed to to whether it's statutes, whether it's regulations, we have to do something to ensure that that independence is restored.
00:27:53.920 --> 00:28:04.000
In in a lot of ways, you know, this this particular administration uh ran roughshod over some of what we thought were those guardrails.
00:28:04.240 --> 00:28:20.640
Those have to be thicker, they have to be more sturdy, whether you're talking about the way the department operates, whether you're talking about protections for uh its civil servants, that independence is ultimately the source of the department's credibility long-term.
00:28:21.039 --> 00:28:34.000
So if you were like czar, someone above the AG, um and you could just implement whatever you wanted to implement, what are what would some of those guardrails look like that you know, maybe the the next attorney general might want to look at?
00:28:34.400 --> 00:28:34.799
Yeah.
00:28:35.039 --> 00:28:44.079
And I and I'll just note, by the way, the the curr our current, our new attorney general is someone who I started out with as uh as an assistant U.S.
00:28:44.160 --> 00:28:45.680
attorney in Southern District of New York.
00:28:45.920 --> 00:28:49.759
We were we started out as general crimes together in Southern District.
00:28:49.920 --> 00:29:04.319
And and so I I do know Todd as someone who who knows and has deep experience in many of the policies, procedures, and practices of the department in past administrations.
00:29:04.559 --> 00:29:21.759
I I think to your question about what needs to be implemented long term, my view of this is that it's gonna require more than internal policies, guidance about the way that the department is allowed to communicate with political actors and the like.
00:29:21.839 --> 00:29:29.599
Many of those were were limited to guidance and principles that were promulgated by the department itself.
00:29:29.759 --> 00:29:36.799
I think we're gonna need some statutory action from Congress to ensure that level of independence is put in place and codified.
00:29:37.200 --> 00:29:38.559
So we need Congress.
00:29:38.799 --> 00:29:39.119
All right.
00:29:39.359 --> 00:29:39.759
I do.
00:29:39.920 --> 00:29:40.240
I do.
00:29:40.319 --> 00:30:18.160
And look, I I know that we none of us feel confident about the way that Congress necessarily can reach uh reach consensus on some of these issues, but I I do think it's ultimately going to require, Jeff, like we're gonna have to say, we as a society, we need to have independent decision makers about our criminal justice system, about our justice system generally, and what can we do to make sure that that independence exists and and hopefully uh we are able to find the right political actors that that appreciate that concern and are able to re reach the appropriate consensus.
00:30:18.640 --> 00:30:22.240
Well, you know, just just have to hold our breath until Congress acts, is what I'm hearing.
00:30:22.400 --> 00:30:41.200
Also that uh I I I do I mean, look, I think you know in the absence of of congressional action, you know, there are there are certainly executive orders and the like that uh that a president could could implement in very quickly, as we've seen, to stand up or uh reinitiate some of that independence.
00:30:41.279 --> 00:30:50.559
And and so I think that would be the fastest way for us to if if the administration changes and those priorities change or to implement or begin implementing that level of independence.
00:30:50.720 --> 00:30:53.920
But it's gonna take it's gonna take more than that, I think.
00:30:54.319 --> 00:30:56.319
It's gonna take more than just an executive order.
00:30:56.640 --> 00:31:08.559
And I'll throw out if your uh former colleague, the attorney general, is listening or or is is interested in coming on the program and wants to discuss his plans with the with uh DOJ, you still are standing in your engineer, so just throw that out there.
00:31:08.880 --> 00:31:12.640
So I I have two uh two more questions and then I'll let you go.
00:31:12.799 --> 00:31:21.920
But first, uh I I've been asking this, and I'm really curious to hear your answer, because I think that you missed sort of the AI craze when you were with DOJ.
00:31:22.480 --> 00:31:28.079
Do you see a role for AI within DOJ, within the legal profession in general?
00:31:28.319 --> 00:31:41.039
Obviously, there's whenever you hear about l AI in the law or legal or lawyers using it, it's you know, a lawyer used AI to craft a brief and it had all of these, you know, incorrect citations, solutionations.
00:31:41.759 --> 00:31:48.960
What is the path forward here with with AI as a tool that you want people to be able to use, but also it's important that they're not make mistakes?
00:31:49.279 --> 00:31:50.000
Yeah, yeah.
00:31:50.160 --> 00:32:00.079
Well, it's it's certainly here uh and it's here to stay from what I can appreciate related to any number of aspects of our society and the legal profession is no different from that.
00:32:00.319 --> 00:32:23.680
Our law firm, like a lot of a lot of the law firms, are making deep investments in terms of making sure that we are developing the right approaches, use of AI within our practice, doing so safely, doing so, doing so consistent with our obligations in representing our clients, and to and and consistent with our obligations of professional responsibility as well.
00:32:24.079 --> 00:32:36.319
Uh and so a lot of the safeguards that you are seeing put in place to prevent our our law firm from being the next one that's being castigated by a court, those are important.
00:32:36.400 --> 00:32:48.880
And we take a lot of time, take a lot of pride, and we take a lot of time in terms of ensuring that all of our attorneys and staff members are utilizing AI safely, appropriately, but but consistently.
00:32:49.039 --> 00:32:51.119
I mean, look, like I said, this is not going away.
00:32:51.200 --> 00:33:01.359
So one of our professional responsibilities is for each of our attorneys, young and old, to become proficient in the use of AI in the practice of law.
00:33:01.519 --> 00:33:09.519
And so that has become that training aspect of the way that this is being rolled out for us is also obviously very critical as well.
00:33:10.000 --> 00:33:31.359
Uh just from the Department of Justice standpoint, I will say I can recall the the Deputy Tenor Attorney General Lisa Monaco issuing a memo where she said, you know, look, this this is we're seeing AI become more and more prevalent in criminality that we are seeing across the country and across the globe.
00:33:31.519 --> 00:33:36.240
Uh, but it hasn't necessarily changed what is a crime.
00:33:36.400 --> 00:34:04.000
It is simply exacerbating the complexity at times, perhaps exacerbating the type of victims, the scope and magnitude of victimhood that we're seeing as a result of some of whether you're talking about identity thefts, uh, other types of frauds, human trafficking, drug trafficking, and the like, it becomes uh uh criminal conduct that becomes magnified, perhaps as the use of AI is employed there.
00:34:04.160 --> 00:34:16.320
And as a result, the department, I think, views, views the use of AI and in conducting criminality as a appropriately so an aggravating circumstance.
00:34:16.480 --> 00:34:36.239
And you're seeing, I think you're gonna continue to see the department, uh, regardless of the administration, try to pursue greater sentences, increase penalties for individuals that have utilized AI as a as an aggravating factor in terms of increasing the impact of their criminal conduct.
00:34:36.320 --> 00:34:40.239
And I think that's appropriately uh an appropriate uh focus for the department.
00:34:40.559 --> 00:34:47.920
I can't imagine trying to to police and prosecute fraud and in the age of deep fakes and just the ability to do it.
00:34:48.400 --> 00:34:48.960
So yeah.
00:34:49.119 --> 00:35:00.079
Well, then it does it does require you to have, and then this is the department writ large, including, you know, including the the the DEA, ATF, and especially FBI.
00:35:00.559 --> 00:35:22.880
Uh, it requires you to have the, you know, not just the lawyers or the accountants, but you need the data, the data analysts, you know, and uh and other uh resources that understand this technology, understand how it can be abused, but also understand how it can be utilized appropriately by law enforcement uh in their efforts as well.
00:35:23.039 --> 00:35:27.039
And so it's also it's an investment from the department standpoint.
00:35:27.199 --> 00:35:40.559
You know, we can't have our agents uh still utilizing old school research, you know, law enforcement efforts from the 20th century to combat a 21st century criminal uh criminal tool like AI.
00:35:41.519 --> 00:35:47.440
So my my last question, which I probably should have led with because it's the most important, but any predictions for the Saints this season?
00:35:49.039 --> 00:35:53.519
I've had a lot of Eagles fans on and happened.
00:35:54.079 --> 00:35:59.039
I'm I'm I'm uh I'm optimistic for a winning season.
00:35:59.360 --> 00:36:00.719
A winning record.
00:36:01.199 --> 00:36:02.400
That's what I'm hoping for.
00:36:02.559 --> 00:36:05.360
I think that'd be a big step for us to have a winning record this year.
00:36:05.679 --> 00:36:07.280
You're an achievement team and no.
00:36:09.599 --> 00:36:13.760
I think we have to keep I think we gotta keep uh expectations in check here.
00:36:13.920 --> 00:36:21.599
You know, we I know folks are very excited about our our young quarterback, but he is uh he is just entering his second season.
00:36:21.679 --> 00:36:26.400
I'm hoping he takes the step forward, but we're gonna keep expectations in check here.
00:36:26.719 --> 00:36:27.119
All right.
00:36:27.280 --> 00:36:29.039
So championship for bust.
00:36:29.199 --> 00:36:29.519
I hear it.
00:36:29.679 --> 00:36:31.360
I think it's awful night.
00:36:31.519 --> 00:36:32.960
Kenneth, thank you so much for joining me.
00:36:33.039 --> 00:36:33.840
This has been a great conversation.
00:36:33.920 --> 00:36:34.400
I really appreciate it.
00:36:35.440 --> 00:36:36.400
Always great to talk to you, bro.
00:36:36.960 --> 00:36:38.960
Thanks for listening to the Jeffalytics Podcast.
00:36:39.039 --> 00:36:45.360
Be sure to subscribe and to learn more, head on over to ahdatalytics.com for more information and previous episodes.
00:36:45.599 --> 00:36:49.840
If you like what you heard, please leave a glowing review, which will help others to discover the show.
00:36:50.000 --> 00:36:51.840
Until next time, I'm Jeff Asher.
