"We're talking about it because the people are talking about it"

WEBVTT
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Hey, Rohome Productions.
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You're listening to The Hum, a new podcast where we're sharing stories from people across the U.S.
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who are fighting the march of AI and data centers into every aspect of our lives.
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I'm Saul Levin, your host.
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Last week, I talked to Kerwin Olsen and Ben Inskeep of the Citizens Action Coalition of Indiana.
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Kerwin, Ben, and other Hoosiers have become known around the country for their portrayal of David in a fight against AI and private equity goliaths in Deep Red, Indiana, where community pushback has won a moratorium in more than 11 counties.
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They talked about Strange Bedfellows, evil utility companies, and their full court press to protect the place they call home.
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This week, I'm joined by Michigan political hopefuls Abdul Said and William Lawrence.
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Al Said is running for Senate and Lawrence is running for the House, but both have unexpected leads in primary polls after taking principled stances against giveaways to AI data centers.
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While both are Democrats, it's their appeal to independence and non-political folks that may be boosting them in Purple, Michigan.
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Our conversation is an educational exercise in how data center resistance is turning into political power.
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Hey Abdul, thank you so much for coming on the program.
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I've been excited to learn about your campaign's engagement with data center issues in the state of Michigan and AI.
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I know you all came out with a platform, but before we get into talking about the details of that, could you tell me a little bit about why your Senate campaign is talking about data centers, why this is a top of mind issue for you all?
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So I'll first thank you for your leadership on this issue.
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Uh grateful that there are folks who are paying attention and focused on it.
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I've been now to 75 cities.
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I've done 230 plus public events.
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And almost everywhere I go, people bring it up.
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So we're talking about it because the people are talking about it with us.
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In politics, you've got to be focused on the challenges that people are bringing to you.
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And I don't want to be in a situation like too many politicians, where my incentives, because of the ways that corporations spread money in our politics, are to just ostrich and bury my head in the sand.
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Instead, I want to be talking about the issues that people are afraid of and worried about.
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And we've had 15 different data center projects proposed in Michigan in the last year alone, and that's counting.
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You look at how much money is being spent just to build this data center infrastructure, and it is a massive amount of money.
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Folks estimating that it's going to be more than the amount of money that was spent to build the federal highway system under Dwight Eisenhower.
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You're talking about a huge amount of money.
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So this is coming everywhere, and the risks are clear.
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Now, here's the issue about it.
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Because a lot of the corporations have approached this without transparency, they've actually allowed for a lot more mis and disinformation to abound.
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And so there's a lot of fear in large part because of the amount of money being spent, and because a lot of the corporations behind this haven't taken the time to actually lay out what the real risks and benefits can be.
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And so we wanted to be able to clarify that and to uh understand what those risks are and how we stand up and protect people from them.
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I feel like yesterday and the day before, and the day before that, I heard about new data center projects happening in Michigan, uh new forms of resistance in more urban areas like Southfield and Detroit, but also, you know, way up north in the upper peninsula and in and all over the state.
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So it seems to be everywhere.
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Could you tell me a little bit more about what are some of the core tenets of this platform that you put out so far?
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And also, what are you gonna do to sort of continue keeping in touch with the community and make sure that it's updated given that this issue seems to change every hour, if not every minute?
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We wanted to lay out a terms of engagement.
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That if you want to open a data center in Michigan, we want to clarify what those risks are and offer a framework to try and step up to address them.
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That if you are promising jobs, that you've got to deliver all the jobs that you said you would promise, and those should be good, high-paying union jobs.
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Second, that there should be closed loop systems, that if you're gonna come in, there should be no impact on our water or our water infrastructure.
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Third, there should be no increase in the rates that people pay for their electricity.
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And in fact, fourth, there should be a leveraging of the revenue that comes out of these projects on the part of uh corporate utilities to invest in improving our reliability.
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Right?
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Part of the challenge here, of course, is that you're talking about huge outlays of energy expenditure.
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And it's hard for us in Southeast Michigan, where we're serviced by possibly the worst of the corporate offenders here who line the pockets of 93% of our state lawmakers.
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It's hard for us to trust that they're going to actually care about us when 50% of the energy they provide goes to a data center.
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And so we are holding them accountable to make sure that our rates don't go up and that the reliability improves.
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And keep going.
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Five, um, there should be a clear uh uh community benefits agreement that is negotiated on behalf of the community by the community to make sure that the money that's coming in from this project is being used to improve the lives of people in those communities.
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And then also all of this needs to be uh uh uh enforceable uh by clear penalties up front.
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And so these are terms that help to clarify what the risks are and uh lay the stage and empower local communities to be able to uh enforce them.
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But beyond that, you know, I'm running for US Senate, and as a US senator, I'm hoping that I can pass these terms into law so that we can uh make it clear that anytime uh a corporation wants to open a data center, these are the things that a local community can expect and that they can't use their lobbying dollars to just stream steamroll local government to get their way.
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When you talk about closed loop systems and other sort of details, how do you think that's gonna be enforceable in the context of the state of Michigan, the greatest freshwater state in America?
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Presumably, some of these data centers are locating to the state of Michigan and to areas in in Wisconsin and around the Great Lakes because they want access to freshwater.
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And as I understand it, the Democratic Party in Michigan has been very interested in making, you know, negotiating with them on those terms about giving huge amounts of water away to data centers.
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Some studies suggest that five million gallons a day are used by hyperscale data centers, if not more.
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That is in Michigan a rare bipartisan issue that no one wants the Great Lakes to be dried up by billionaires from California.
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So how do you think about the water issue as it relates to Michigan and the identity of the state in particular, especially keeping in mind the Flint Water crisis, water shortages in Detroit for residents, and other issues that have come up in the past 10 years or so?
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Yeah, so look, the issue in Michigan is not that we don't have water, it's that we have not invested in water infrastructure.
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You talked about the Flint Water crisis, that was a water infrastructure problem.
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You talk about water shutoffs in communities like Detroit, that is a water infrastructure problem.
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And to me, water infrastructure problems are solvable, right?
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The hard part here, though, is that when you're talking about this level of scale, this is not just an infrastructure problem, it becomes a potential water problem.
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So to me, it's just simply unacceptable to uh try and locate here because you want uh to dredge up um uh Michigan's and frankly the world's fresh water.
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You think about 21% of the world's fresh water, the Great Lakes, are quickly becoming an important global public good, and it is our responsibility to protect them.
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And we have the technology to improve systems so that they don't actually rely on local water.
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It's just a question of how much money these corporations want to spend.
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And we're saying that it is just unacceptable to be using uh local fresh water.
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You need to be invested uh in closed loop systems where you are not connected to water or water infrastructure.
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And in fact, I think part of those community benefits agreements that need to be negotiated are improvements to water infrastructure so that the whole community can benefit without having to worry about what happens to their access to fresh water, which of course is where that infrastructure problem uh hits the road.
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And so I think it is just important for us to be clear about the fact that yes, if you want to do this on the cheap, you can destroy whole ecosystems and devastate fresh water, and we're just not gonna be okay with that.
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You all have been talking to community groups to figure out this agenda, but this issue is rapidly shifting.
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So as things change, you know, next week and the research comes out about how energy is being used by data centers, what kind of deals are being struck.
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What is your team gonna be doing during the Senate campaign to stay close to the ground on one of the fastest moving issues we've ever seen?
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Look, one of the important pieces here of campaigning is putting your ear to the ground and going places and listening.
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You know, I talked about how far we've traveled, 75 different cities, 230 public events.
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We're only going further from here, right?
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We have not just done our listening and now we step back.
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No, this is about continuing a conversation with the public.
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And I just want to step back here and I want to set the frame.
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Everywhere I go, alongside data centers, people are telling me about how they can't afford their milk, can't afford their eggs, can't afford their healthcare, worried about what happens uh if their job goes away, worried about the air and the water that they drink.
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And we have to understand this within the broader context of what people are suffering from in the first place.
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And so as we think about where this goes, we have to be able to tie it to the broader questions about how we empower people to live a dignified life.
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The reason I can talk about this so easily is because I'm the only candidate in my race who's never taken a dime from the local utility, who's never taken a dime from any corporation on top of it.
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So when I show up, I'm showing up on behalf of the people.
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It's why people are willing to bring us their pain and to trust that we're actually going to come up with solutions.
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So, yeah, this is an evolving story, and it's our responsibility to continue to understand how it evolves, but also to tie it back to the broader challenges of affordability, the broader challenges of corporate corruption in our politics that are affecting so many people's lives.
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And it's important for us to continue to stand up and speak out.
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Now, don't get me wrong, too many politicians are worried about whether or not they're going to be on the right side of a corporation or whether or not that corporate pack is gonna write them a check.
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I'm just not.
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And so I'm gonna keep evolving our position so that we understand where this is.
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Two years ago, the question of how what's your position on data centers was not a question.
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Like this was not a thing that people saw coming unless you were, you know, sitting somewhere in Silicon Valley.
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Now it is.
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And it's a question that we're not just asking, we're asking it because the people in local communities are asking it.
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And so wherever we see people asking big questions about their ability to live a life of dignity, we're going to try and come with solutions.
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Thank you for that.
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Like you said, this wasn't a question that people were asking two years ago.
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However, last year, the Democrats actually led the charge to pass a bill, the House Bill 4906, which was about deregulating the materials in the siting of data centers and basically giving tax breaks to companies that want to come in and build a data center in the state.
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Most Democrats are on the record in support of it.
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And it's fascinating to me that some of the candidates for Republican Senate and governor have actually come out and said this bill was corporate welfare, that's why I voted against it.
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And so the normal partisan lines in Michigan don't seem to be breaking down on data centers the way that they have on other issues.
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Could you talk a little bit more about that and where you would stand on 4906 or other similar legislation?
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I would have opposed it just because I'm opposed to the whole system that tells us that we should send our taxpayer dollars to subsidized corporations to come in and create jobs for us.
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I just don't think that's ever worked for us.
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And Saul, this is a tale as old as time.
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Corporations come in and say, well, you know, this is a race to the bottom.
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And if you don't deregulate, if you don't give us tax breaks, then we're gonna go somewhere else.
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We've seen this happen over and over and over and over again, and it's always a trick.
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And so, you know, my position has always been that you're talking about the biggest corporations in the history of the world.
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They have the money.
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And if they're serious about trying to locate here, then we shouldn't be in the business of giving taxpayer dollars away.
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We should be in the business of being skeptical and making sure that this is coming in on our terms, hence a terms of engagement.
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And I'm worried, right?
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Because we think about the main winner locally, and that's a company like DTE, right?
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They are a corporate utility that spends more in Michigan politics than any other corporation.
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They have lined the pockets of 93% of the campaigns for the state legislature.
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That's Democrat or Republican.
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And I've been clear from the jump that the issue in our politics isn't left-right, it's not even Democrat-Republican.
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Too often it's corporations versus everyone else.
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And those corporations have figured out how to corrupt our system by giving to both Democrats and Republicans.
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And my message to my own party has been that if you're serious about standing with people, you cannot also stand with the corporations who are making problems for people.
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And so we've just got to be clear about the fact that this is just another situation in which corporations are using their money to bully politicians or to bribe and buy off politicians to do their bidding for them.
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And we can't fall prey to the same old game.
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And so it's not surprising to me that when a corporation like DTE, who's the biggest winner in all of this in Michigan, spends money to help elect 93% of the legislature, that they're going to get a vote that comes in their favor.
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I don't play that game.
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I never have and I never will, which puts me in a position to be able to say, what's in the best interest of the public first?
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And then let's ask ourselves questions about how uh we protect the public as uh as uh technology changes.
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Yeah, it's it's unbelievable.
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I mean, the control of DTE in the state of Michigan is something I think people outside of the state don't fully understand a lot of times.
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Um, the level at which it's basically a pay-to-play system in the state is is something that feels like it's out of a bad movie, but then it's real life when you show up in Lansing.
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So I want to turn a little bit to public health issues.
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I mean, you're known in Michigan and around the country for being a leader on public health issues with what you've written on public health with your leadership in the Detroit Department of Public Health.
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How are you thinking about public health issues related to not only data centers but artificial intelligence and the recent trial pilots that the Center for Medicaid and Medicare Services has been doing around AI care for rural communities?
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Could you tell me a little bit about where public health crashes into these issues?
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We're only now starting to really appreciate what the public health implications are going to be of AI.
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And when you talk about a world-changing technology like AI, it's almost impossible to fully enumerate all of the ways that can affect us.
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But I've said for a while now that the problem with AI isn't the technology.
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I mean, this is a world-changing technology.
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It's pretty incredible what AI can do.
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It's the way that the incentives around the development of AI have moved it into places where rather than improve our quality of life, this is being used in ways that are about growing a corporate bottom line.
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And that to me is the big danger.
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So one example that you brought up is the use of AI for prior authorization.
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Now, to explain what prior authorization is, it's if you go and see a doctor and your doctor tells you that you need a certain diagnostic or treatment, and then your insurance company steps up and says, we're not so sure about that.
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Now imagine rather than a real life doctor who's reviewing a case at the insurance company, it's now an AI that has every incentive to deny your care.
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That's what we're talking about.
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And now it's being used by Trump's version of the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid to now make decisions about whether or not Medicare beneficiaries are going to get the care that they need and deserve.
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I think that's exactly the wrong kind of use of AI.
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On the other front, right, one of the early test uses of AI was about whether or not it could predict how a protein would fold, opening up the opportunity to develop brand new medications.
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That to me seems like a positive use of AI.
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So it's important for me to decouple the technology itself from the incentives driving the technology.
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And right now, the incentives driving the technology are all about trying to accrue benefit for corporations.
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So much of the way that we're watching them potentially come for people's jobs is again about corporations using them to eliminate jobs rather than using them to expand the potential of what's possible.
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And so what we've needed, right, not just need, what we've needed for a long time, is a legislature that understands what these risks are and is willing to step up and actually legislate to protect folks from the risks and empower the positives.
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Beyond the obvious things of there's a lot of fresh water, I mean, why are these companies, primarily based in California, uh maybe New York City, why are they coming to the state of Michigan in such huge numbers?
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And why are the people, you know, the political leaders in both parties so amenable to those advances?
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I mean, what is it about Michigan that is that makes it such an important center in the fight over data centers and artificial intelligence?
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So what data centers are, stepping all the way back, they are rooms full of computing power.
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Those computing power, that computing power needs electricity, it needs space, and it needs to be cooled.
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And ideally, you want it relatively close to where people are asking for compute.
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So major metropolitan areas.
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So you think about Michigan and you think about the upper Midwest generally, you're talking about states that have large rural tracts of land.
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You're talking about proximity to fresh water, which of course we talked about as being a big risk because they need to be using closed loop systems where they're not relying on that fresh water.
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And you're talking about proximity to major metropolitan areas like the Detroit Metroplex and the Chicago Metroplex.
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And that to me seems to be why uh Michigan is a place to go.
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Now, the game that a lot of corporations play when it comes to where they're going to place these um uh factories is that they are saying that if you don't give us incentives, then we're gonna go somewhere else.
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But based on what I just shared, they're gonna want to come to the upper Midwest generally.
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They're basically playing Michigan off of Ohio, off of Indiana, off of Minnesota, off of Wisconsin, right?
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And so there's a race to the bottom to try and attract them.
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But I think there's a real responsibility for all of us to come together and say, here are the terms everywhere.
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Which is why, as a candidate for US Senate, I think the kind of enshrining of these terms into law has to happen at the federal government level to protect any of the local communities from falling prey to that race to the bottom where they're playing different states and different localities off of each other.
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And I also think that there's a real responsibility for us to be asking big questions about the long-term sustainability and need for what we're talking about here.
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So I just think that for all of us, right, we've got to be skeptical about what the promises are that are made, and we've got to be skeptical about what the risks are and about what people tell us about how we should ignore the risks.
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And we should not fall prey into a situation where we're all being pitted against our neighbors to race to the bottom for the lowest possible protections and the lowest possible uh potential upside.
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And so I just think right now that has to happen at the federal level, but that federal leadership hasn't come.
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And I think it's just really, really important that we get federal leadership that is not bought off, but understands the incentives so that we can actually pass the kind of legislation that can promote the upside of AI and protect us from the downsides.
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Thanks so much for your time, Abdul, and good luck out there.
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So we're always interested in learning more from Michiganers on the ground.
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So thank you, and uh and we appreciate uh your leadership in raising this conversation.
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That was my conversation with Michigan Senate candidate Abdul O Said.
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Now we zoom into Michigan's 7th Congressional District with candidate William Lawrence.
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Michigan 7th is known for swinging between political parties every election cycle and is now home to numerous proposed hyperscale AI data center projects.
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One of the things that we've noticed is that Will has been an outspoken advocate for protections, regulations of AI data centers, and also making sure that Michigan taxpayer dollars aren't going to fund big corporations.
00:20:05.920 --> 00:20:11.599
So, Will, welcome and tell us a little bit about how data centers are playing out in your race for Congress.
00:20:11.920 --> 00:20:12.480
Thank you, Saul.
00:20:12.559 --> 00:20:13.599
It's a pleasure to be here.
00:20:14.000 --> 00:20:17.200
I'll tell you, I've been in this race for about um almost 10 months.
00:20:17.279 --> 00:20:22.400
We've been campaigning, and it wasn't something I expected to be talking about when I got into the race last August.
00:20:22.559 --> 00:20:35.839
But um, you know, I'm a I'm an organizer and a community builder, first and foremost, and I listen to people, and what I've heard is that people are very opposed to uh data centers coming in to the state of Michigan.
00:20:36.079 --> 00:20:45.039
We have had four data centers proposed in the district, the 7th district during the time I've been running, um, including three hyperscalers.
00:20:45.279 --> 00:20:54.240
And um what I'm hearing is that people simply uh do not trust that these data centers are gonna be for the benefit of their communities.
00:20:54.400 --> 00:20:57.200
Um the details are very obscure.
00:20:57.359 --> 00:21:04.640
Local city and township officials are signing nondisclosure agreements and then trying to push the deals through over the public uh objection.
00:21:05.039 --> 00:21:18.160
And uh there's a lot of skepticism that is very well founded, and people don't just want to sign away the future of their communities to these behemoths without knowing all the implications.
00:21:18.319 --> 00:21:20.000
Aaron Powell That's what I've been hearing too.
00:21:20.319 --> 00:21:31.839
Can you tell me like a specific story about someone you've talked to, uh a constituent of the 7th district, and and why they're concerned about data centers or why they've come out against them?
00:21:31.920 --> 00:21:32.480
Aaron Powell Sure.
00:21:32.640 --> 00:21:52.640
I mean, there's a fellow from down uh in Mason, which is just south of Lansing, where the city council and mayor um worked to adjust the zoning code, and they said, well, there's no specific proposal planned, but by all accounts it looked as if they were rolling out the red carpet to allow for hyperscale data center development.
00:21:52.960 --> 00:21:59.759
And I met um Randy on a picket line basically in front of the city council meeting where they were um protesting.
00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:01.519
Against this rezoning.
00:22:01.599 --> 00:22:08.480
And then he walked into my campaign office a couple of weeks later and he said, You know, I met you, I didn't know you from Adam, but then I looked you up.
00:22:08.640 --> 00:22:11.839
And I got to say, thank God you're a Democrat.
00:22:12.079 --> 00:22:14.480
Because I've been a Democrat my whole life.
00:22:14.720 --> 00:22:23.759
And but I have been unsure what I was going to do this election because I've heard more Republicans speaking out against these data centers than I've heard Democrats.
00:22:23.839 --> 00:22:30.000
But knowing that you're a Democrat and you can see common sense, you're against these data centers, you know, it means everything to me.
00:22:30.160 --> 00:22:32.720
And he started showing me some pictures of his property.
00:22:32.960 --> 00:22:42.000
I mean, he lives, I mean, literally directly across the street from uh, you know, several hundred acre property that is slated for hyperscale data center development.
00:22:42.160 --> 00:22:46.640
And he's worried about the noise pollution, he's worried about the light pollution, he's worried about the traffic.
00:22:46.799 --> 00:22:48.799
He's, I mean, it's gonna totally change his life.
00:22:48.880 --> 00:22:54.000
This is a rural community, and it's gonna turn it into an industrial site.
00:22:54.240 --> 00:22:57.920
And uh, I don't think anybody would be happy in that situation.
00:22:58.079 --> 00:23:00.319
So that's that's one that stands out to me.
00:23:00.480 --> 00:23:03.599
Uh, but there are many others like him uh across the whole district.
00:23:03.680 --> 00:23:09.519
Aaron Powell So I mean, he was so inspired that you were talking about this that he came and found your campaign office and walked in.
00:23:09.680 --> 00:23:12.240
I mean, that doesn't happen that much in 2026.
00:23:12.720 --> 00:23:19.599
Some people have been saying, you know, folks in Michigan who are fighting back against these projects just don't want them in their backyard.
00:23:19.759 --> 00:23:25.119
They are fine if they go somewhere else and it's sort of a NIMBY or not in my backyard response.
00:23:25.359 --> 00:23:28.559
But a lot of folks I've talked to have said it's more complicated than that.
00:23:28.720 --> 00:23:37.200
What have you been hearing in terms of people's broader reactions to data centers in Michigan, in their backyards, but also uh in the region and around the state?
00:23:37.519 --> 00:23:37.920
Sure.
00:23:38.160 --> 00:23:42.480
You know, I I want to say something about the the the NIMBY concept in this case.
00:23:42.720 --> 00:23:46.880
Um, you know, I saw the pictures that Randy showed me of where he lives.
00:23:47.119 --> 00:23:49.440
Nobody would want this in their neighborhood.
00:23:49.599 --> 00:23:54.720
I mean, this is gonna dramatically, dramatically change his life and not for the better.
00:23:54.880 --> 00:23:56.480
It creates a sacrifice zone.
00:23:56.640 --> 00:24:00.799
And that's a phrase I learned, you know, from the environmental justice movement, sacrifice zone.
00:24:01.039 --> 00:24:07.759
People who are expected to bear the brunt for the common good without getting a benefit to themselves.
00:24:08.000 --> 00:24:09.599
Nobody should have to deal with that.
00:24:09.680 --> 00:24:11.599
We should not have sacrifice zones.
00:24:11.920 --> 00:24:31.519
And so what I hear generally speaking is that the people who are directly there on the fence line and people across the region, they don't have a clear sense of what the benefits may be of these projects.
00:24:31.759 --> 00:24:33.440
They see a lot of drawbacks.
00:24:33.599 --> 00:24:46.240
They see the potential for the traffic, for the noise pollution, for the light pollution, for the increased energy rates, for a lot of uncertainty about um, you know, what's going to happen with our water and how much water is or isn't going to be used.
00:24:46.400 --> 00:24:48.240
There's uncertainty about all these questions.
00:24:48.319 --> 00:24:50.079
We think the answers may be bad.
00:24:50.400 --> 00:24:56.720
And then we're being told that this is necessary for the sake of what?
00:24:57.119 --> 00:25:00.799
For the sake of progress, for the sake of a little tax revenue.
00:25:00.960 --> 00:25:05.519
Although the reason why they're coming in in the first place is because there's been massive tax breaks.
00:25:05.680 --> 00:25:08.640
So it's not like the revenue is that overwhelming.
00:25:08.960 --> 00:25:15.519
People just don't the proposition on the value has not been made by the advocates of this project.
00:25:15.599 --> 00:25:24.400
And they act as if it's completely common sense and understood that this is the way of the future and it's going to be good for everybody.
00:25:24.480 --> 00:25:28.319
And so they say, look, we need to have shared sacrifice for the common good.
00:25:28.640 --> 00:25:34.720
I say, if there was a common good that was possible here, people would accept it.
00:25:34.799 --> 00:25:45.759
If they understood that we're all going to benefit, people will make sacrifices for the common good, but only if the common good is truly grounded in a real political bargain.
00:25:45.920 --> 00:25:56.480
And there has been no bargain made that delivers tangible and concrete benefits to communities on the fence line or the people of the state of Michigan more broadly.
00:25:56.720 --> 00:26:15.599
And that is the work that people uh who are the advocates of AI and data centers need to get busy with is to actually convince people that there will be a shared benefit that is shared among all rather than going exclusively to a few billionaires in Silicon Valley, because that's who's getting rich right now.
00:26:16.240 --> 00:26:17.759
You grew up in Lansing.
00:26:17.920 --> 00:26:19.279
How do you think that plays into this?
00:26:19.440 --> 00:26:33.519
I mean, you're like, this is where I'm from, and now there's these, you know, billionaires and their developers coming in and trying to build these massive projects that we're not really even sure who they're for or what they're for, because they're not benefiting us.
00:26:33.839 --> 00:26:38.480
What is the relationship between this data center fight and your roots in the 7th District?
00:26:38.880 --> 00:26:39.200
Sure.
00:26:39.359 --> 00:27:00.319
It just feels like the latest version of rich and powerful people who are not from here coming in, making deals with the local political elites under the shroud of nondisclosure agreements, and then the public is the last to know and ends up holding the back.
00:27:00.880 --> 00:27:09.599
I mean, we've gone through the uh ups and downs of the industrial revolution here in Michigan.
00:27:09.759 --> 00:27:16.880
I mean people are proud of the automotive industry here in the state and its history and its ongoing reality.
00:27:17.519 --> 00:27:18.880
And people are excited.
00:27:19.440 --> 00:27:20.400
People want to build things.
00:27:20.559 --> 00:27:24.960
People want to have this be a state where there is industry.
00:27:25.200 --> 00:27:29.920
But they've also seen over the years, you know what, the big three, they don't give a damn about us.
00:27:30.079 --> 00:27:31.440
They don't give a damn about us.
00:27:31.599 --> 00:27:38.400
And it was the union that has had to fight for every single penny that has gone to the people and the communities of Michigan.
00:27:38.559 --> 00:27:42.880
None of it was given by the executives in the big three.
00:27:43.119 --> 00:27:54.480
And so people here know, do not trust promises made by multinational corporations because they will pack up their bags and leave the first chance that they get.
00:27:54.720 --> 00:27:56.079
The first chance that they get.
00:27:56.319 --> 00:28:04.400
And that is just as much true now for these Silicon Valley billionaires who are trying to do the latest version of the same thing.
00:28:04.559 --> 00:28:29.519
Unfortunately, too many politicians on both sides of the aisle, Democrats and Republicans, here in Michigan, have a kind of nostalgia for the 20th century version of our manufacturing economy, and they want to believe that these data centers are the next big thing that is going to bring back a middle-class manufacturing economy to the state of Michigan, which is utter crap, utter crap.
00:28:29.759 --> 00:28:36.480
Because you know, nothing about these projects uh is resembles that 20th century Fordist manufacturing economy.
00:28:36.640 --> 00:28:44.799
We're not going to have 10,000 guys walking onto the assembly line with their lunch pails and then going home and investing in their communities and spending money at small businesses.
00:28:45.039 --> 00:28:46.480
None of that is in the cards here.
00:28:46.640 --> 00:29:04.240
We're talking about a massive capital investment with a very short number of short small number of short-term manufacturing jobs, and then an even smaller number of high-tech jobs that in many cases will be served by people who are not from the district and are moving in to take those ongoing jobs, maintaining the centers.
00:29:04.559 --> 00:29:06.400
It just is not a path back.
00:29:06.640 --> 00:29:13.680
The only benefit that has really been articulated is that there will be some tax revenue that is then available to communities.
00:29:13.839 --> 00:29:23.200
But when you consider the drain on the infrastructure, the drain on the grid, the increased energy costs, and then all of the disruption that happened, it just doesn't add up.
00:29:23.599 --> 00:29:29.200
So I mean, it it doesn't add up, and people are coming to Michigan because there's ample land.
00:29:29.279 --> 00:29:31.200
You know, it's a big state geographically.
00:29:31.279 --> 00:29:31.440
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
00:29:31.599 --> 00:29:37.440
And the state legislature passed major tax breaks and incentives to bring uh data centers here to our state.
00:29:37.519 --> 00:29:38.000
Aaron Powell Right.
00:29:38.160 --> 00:29:45.839
So I mean, the Democrats in power pushed through major tax breaks and incentives.
00:29:45.920 --> 00:29:54.000
They've worked on giving away as much Great Lakes water as possible, as far as I can tell, to data centers and AI infrastructure.
00:29:54.319 --> 00:30:03.200
How do you relate to people who say, hey, you're running as a Democrat, but Democrats in Michigan at least are kind of the ones who got us in this position in the first place?
00:30:03.599 --> 00:30:04.400
I say, sure.
00:30:04.559 --> 00:30:04.960
Yeah.
00:30:05.200 --> 00:30:13.279
You know, I I I'm not going to DC to take orders from Democratic leadership because I've seen them get it wrong time and time again.
00:30:13.519 --> 00:30:16.160
I don't feel well represented by the Republican Party either.
00:30:16.319 --> 00:30:20.400
I mean, truthfully, I'm an independent-minded guy and I make my own conclusions.
00:30:20.559 --> 00:30:28.720
Um, I'm running as a Democrat because I find more alignment with that side of the aisle, and I certainly think we need to place a check on the president at this juncture.
00:30:28.880 --> 00:30:31.279
But I'm here to represent the people of this district.
00:30:31.440 --> 00:30:41.039
And what I hear from the people of this district is that they don't trust big tech, they don't trust Wall Street, they don't trust Democrats, and they don't trust Republicans.
00:30:41.200 --> 00:30:50.079
And so my job is to uh represent them, represent my neighbors by taking that perspective to Washington.
00:30:50.240 --> 00:30:53.839
And my job is going to be to represent the people of this district above all.
00:30:54.720 --> 00:31:09.920
What do you think it is about the data center fight that has uh bred such animus, not from just Democratic or Republican voters, from both sides of the aisle, like people who vote, people who don't vote, independence.
00:31:10.160 --> 00:31:17.119
So many people that I've talked to in the state of Michigan and also in the 7th district have said, listen, this is against my values.
00:31:17.279 --> 00:31:20.720
What is it about data centers though that has brought so many people together?
00:31:21.119 --> 00:31:23.680
You know, it's completely impersonal.
00:31:24.480 --> 00:31:25.839
This is what is bringing people together.
00:31:25.920 --> 00:31:48.480
Is it feels like it is something, it's this amorphous, corporate, faceless entity that is coming into your neighborhood to put a gigantic box that is going to make noise and raise your energy bill and who knows what with the light pollution, the water pollution, all the rest of it.
00:31:48.960 --> 00:31:53.519
And nobody is there to actually say, This is my project.
00:31:53.759 --> 00:31:56.559
You know, I'm a stand-up guy, I'm trustworthy.
00:31:56.720 --> 00:31:57.519
Nobody is there.
00:31:57.599 --> 00:32:11.039
You have lawyers, you have PR agents from the companies, and then you have uh you have uh public officials who, in many cases, are under the shroud of nondisclosure agreements.
00:32:11.200 --> 00:32:16.720
So the whole thing is so alienated from a human touch.
00:32:16.960 --> 00:32:36.000
Uh the way that we ought to be making choices about the future of our communities when it comes to major investments is to sit down at the table, to examine what our desires are, to talk about the possible courses of action, to be real about trade-offs.
00:32:36.160 --> 00:32:37.839
Okay, folks, there's pros and cons.
00:32:37.920 --> 00:32:39.519
You know, there's a downside to everything.
00:32:39.680 --> 00:32:42.319
There is gonna have to be sacrifice that we share in common.
00:32:42.480 --> 00:32:49.200
If we want to have a benefit that we share in common, nobody is gonna get everything they want, but there is gonna be something for everybody.
00:32:49.359 --> 00:32:53.279
And then, okay, now we're ready to move forward and build the thing together.
00:32:53.440 --> 00:32:55.599
And that's what politics ought to be about.
00:32:55.759 --> 00:33:04.079
It's about mediating and negotiating among um sometimes contradictory interests in order to strike a deal, right?
00:33:04.240 --> 00:33:06.000
That's what the new deal was all about.
00:33:06.160 --> 00:33:09.359
Is saying, okay, American capitalism is on the rise.
00:33:09.519 --> 00:33:20.000
Some people are getting really rich, that can be good, but we're not going to allow anybody to die on the streets of this country because they didn't get their fair share in the midst of this amazing prosperity.
00:33:20.160 --> 00:33:21.039
That was the deal.
00:33:21.279 --> 00:33:21.920
That was the deal.
00:33:22.079 --> 00:33:23.599
Right now we have no deal.
00:33:23.839 --> 00:33:33.519
We have uh a set of economic oligarchs and their political lackeys who want to simply set the terms and impose them on our communities.
00:33:33.680 --> 00:33:38.480
And they do not even dare to face the public in a real way.
00:33:38.640 --> 00:33:49.119
There's nobody capable of facing the public in a real way and answering in a human sense, meeting the frustration and the anger that people feel, and then being able to negotiate in a meaningful way.
00:33:49.279 --> 00:33:57.200
Because the whole thing is so corporatized and abstracted, and they're all just people there to do a job, lawyers and PR agents and all the rest of it.
00:33:57.359 --> 00:33:59.119
So people hate that shit.
00:33:59.440 --> 00:34:00.240
People hate it.
00:34:00.319 --> 00:34:02.640
This is not how our future should be determined.
00:34:02.880 --> 00:34:05.200
And that is what people are reacting to.
00:34:05.359 --> 00:34:16.880
And they're reacting that way against other megaprojects, I might add, it's not just data centers, it's other industrial megaprojects in the state of Michigan that I've seen a broad-based reaction against.
00:34:17.039 --> 00:34:21.039
Some of them, you know, are good in my opinion, some of them are bad, some of them are in between.
00:34:21.119 --> 00:34:27.039
But what they all have in common is that they're they're completely alienated, abstracted, there's not a human face on it.
00:34:27.119 --> 00:34:31.920
And that is fostering the sense of mistrust from the bottom up.
00:34:32.320 --> 00:34:32.880
100%.
00:34:33.760 --> 00:34:43.519
One of the places that people have been expressing this fury about industrial projects by and for people somewhere else is at town halls.
00:34:43.920 --> 00:34:48.960
Have you attended any of the town halls about data center and AI infrastructure projects?
00:34:49.039 --> 00:34:50.400
And yeah, what was that like?
00:34:50.559 --> 00:34:51.599
Who did you run into there?
00:34:52.079 --> 00:34:52.719
All kinds of people.
00:34:52.880 --> 00:35:05.519
I mean, yeah, I've been to I've been to town halls and um, you know, planning board meetings in hearings and um um township board meetings in Howell Township, in Lyon Township, um, in Mason, and in Lansing.
00:35:05.760 --> 00:35:09.440
And, you know, what I hear is is broadly similar everywhere.
00:35:09.599 --> 00:35:18.800
A lot of this mistrust, um, and a lot of lecturing um on the part of the public officials who basically are saying, you know, take your fucking medicine.
00:35:19.039 --> 00:35:21.199
Don't you know that this is good for you?
00:35:21.440 --> 00:35:24.400
And uh if they have anything to say at all.
00:35:24.719 --> 00:35:42.480
And I also find myself sitting next to Democrats, Republicans, libertarians, nonvoters, people who are, you know, eclectic and um eccentric, and uh then, you know, lots of professionals, I mean, people across the political spectrum, across the class spectrum.
00:35:42.639 --> 00:35:52.719
This is what I really need to emphasize is that this is people from all walks of life who are deeply mistrustful of this bargain that is being pushed onto us.
00:35:53.039 --> 00:35:59.519
And um, it's been a real interesting experience, inspiring actually, to see people coming together.
00:35:59.679 --> 00:36:18.159
And, you know, many of the local groups are really doing uh they're they're doing the work of politics of uniting people and keeping them together, even in the spite of all the other things on the culture wars and on other issues that people don't share.
00:36:18.239 --> 00:36:22.079
And partisan identification, there are community leaders on the ground.
00:36:22.239 --> 00:36:26.079
Some of them are Democratic voters, some of them are Republican voters that I've met.
00:36:26.159 --> 00:36:34.960
And what they have in common is that they can see the value of bringing people together across the aisle to stand up for our communities and against these big tech billionaires.
00:36:35.199 --> 00:36:38.000
Aaron Powell What is your alternative proposal?
00:36:38.239 --> 00:36:40.719
We're hearing about data center opposition.
00:36:40.880 --> 00:36:58.000
And although it seems like most regular people in Michigan are opposed, and only like, you know, a couple AI executives and bought-out politicians are in favor, there is a lot of interest in new economic activity in the state of Michigan, in the 7th district in particular.
00:36:58.159 --> 00:37:00.480
People want to see new jobs getting created.
00:37:00.719 --> 00:37:07.280
People want to see uh new resources coming into Lansing and Mason, places like that.
00:37:08.000 --> 00:37:09.440
What do you think we should do?
00:37:09.599 --> 00:37:12.960
Like, what's your vision for alternative economic development?
00:37:13.440 --> 00:37:25.199
I do think that there, I think there should be like an AI social compact that is about the regulation and management of AI in society at large, including the question of the data centers where the AI is powered.
00:37:25.440 --> 00:37:32.400
You know, I'm not one of these people who thinks that AI is just a big nothing burger, like it's all completely hype and there's nothing there.
00:37:32.559 --> 00:37:38.000
I think it's a pretty amazing technology, and much of what it's capable of is very impressive.
00:37:38.239 --> 00:37:52.000
And I think I would like to live in a world where we can uh deploy AI for the common good and actually save some of the unnecessary labor that AI is very capable of doing.
00:37:52.159 --> 00:37:56.639
Now, in order for that to happen, we need to make sure that it's not going to cook the planet.
00:37:56.719 --> 00:38:04.960
Um, it's not going to destroy the local sovereignty and self-determination of communities that are in the in the around these data centers.
00:38:05.119 --> 00:38:13.679
And we need to ensure that the benefits of the increased productivity that is unlocked by AI will be shared by everybody in common.
00:38:13.760 --> 00:38:30.239
Because truly it's it's the sum total of human language that found its way onto the internet, that then has been digested for training these AAI models, that has been uh is now being privatized by a small number of frontier AI companies.
00:38:30.320 --> 00:38:40.639
So I think it's a it's a marvel of human creativity and technology and is something that should be regarded as a public common good and treated in that sense.
00:38:40.880 --> 00:38:47.840
So I think that is where we need to be going on the management and regulation of AI specifically.
00:38:48.079 --> 00:39:04.079
But um here in Michigan, I mean, I was just speaking with a woman the other day who is uh involved in fighting many of these mega projects around the state, and she's working from the bottom up, listening to people about what they want their alternatives to be.
00:39:04.239 --> 00:39:40.079
And she has uh something called a regenerative agriculture mega site, which is a combination of investment in rural infrastructure, in agricultural infrastructure, supporting small farmers and a more diversified agricultural ecosystem in our in our rural areas, while pushing back against the control of uh monopoly agribusiness, which is a huge issue in these rural communities because, again, young people are getting pushed out and family farmers are being forced to sell because of the consolidation of agribusiness and the terrible cycles of debt that farmers are being pushed into.
00:39:40.239 --> 00:39:55.360
So they're proposing can we try to push back against that, invest in a more diverse rural agricultural ecosystem, invest in education and recreation, and really put Michigan's beautiful land and water, which we all love, at the center of that whole vision.
00:39:55.440 --> 00:39:56.800
I mean, pure Michigan.
00:39:56.960 --> 00:39:58.880
Everybody here knows what that means.
00:39:59.119 --> 00:40:22.719
And seeing Michigan as a site for tourism, and it already is, but we should be investing even further in our eco-tourism business and preserving the rural communities that are beautiful and amazing all across the state and revitalizing them rather than just assuming that we need to turn them all into industrial megasites, which is not what people want to see.
00:40:23.119 --> 00:40:24.480
It makes a lot of sense to me.
00:40:24.639 --> 00:40:29.199
Okay, so I'm wondering if you've come across any funny conversations.
00:40:29.519 --> 00:40:32.719
I mean, this issue is so crazy.
00:40:32.880 --> 00:40:38.000
You know, every single person is like, we have the biggest data center in the country.
00:40:38.400 --> 00:40:41.760
And at first you're like, well, someone here must be not telling the truth.
00:40:42.000 --> 00:40:54.800
And then you realize, well, actually, you know, this person in in um Texas did have the biggest data center in their county yesterday, and today it's someone in Louisiana, and tomorrow it's someone in Michigan.
00:40:54.880 --> 00:41:03.519
And so it it just becomes sort of a comedy of developers showing up with a list of pros and the list of cons is absent.
00:41:03.679 --> 00:41:09.119
Um, I'm wondering if anything has has made you laugh uh as you're talking to people about this fight.
00:41:09.519 --> 00:41:12.719
Oh, I mean, just I I'm not gonna be able to do it justice, Saul.
00:41:12.800 --> 00:41:15.920
But I mean, the comments that people give in public comment are really funny.
00:41:16.079 --> 00:41:20.000
I mean, you know, some people are angry, some people are just all business.
00:41:20.239 --> 00:41:31.280
There was one guy who basically came up and he was submitting his resume for a job with the um with the AI developer, and he was like, I'm I'm a skilled scammer.
00:41:31.440 --> 00:41:35.679
Like, I uh I I I can't even begin to do it justice, but he was really hilarious.
00:41:35.840 --> 00:41:42.559
He was talking about all the all of his um skills in the dark arts that was gonna make him a good employee for them.
00:41:42.880 --> 00:41:53.280
And uh so I'm not gonna be able to do the question justice, but it's it's um there's uh some levity, especially in the midst of these very, very long public hearings.
00:41:53.440 --> 00:41:54.800
People find a way to keep it interesting.
00:41:55.119 --> 00:41:55.440
Awesome.
00:41:55.519 --> 00:41:58.719
And my last question for you is about how this is affecting your race.
00:41:58.880 --> 00:42:01.599
You're running in a primary for Congress right now.
00:42:01.840 --> 00:42:07.280
How much daylight is there between you and other candidates on the issue of data centers and AI?
00:42:07.360 --> 00:42:08.400
Aaron Powell There's a lot of daylight.
00:42:08.480 --> 00:42:13.760
I mean, Tom Barrett hasn't had anything to say about the race whatsoever, about about the about AI in this race.
00:42:13.840 --> 00:42:15.679
That's the Republican incumbent, Tom Barrett.
00:42:15.920 --> 00:42:17.920
He's been completely silent on the matter.
00:42:18.079 --> 00:42:27.440
Uh and my two Democratic opponents have also been completely silent on the matter and haven't spoken about it whatsoever.
00:42:27.679 --> 00:42:36.719
Actually, one funny thing that happened is that one of my Democratic opponents, Matt Masdam, he posted about this crypto regulation act, which is favored by the crypto industry.
00:42:36.880 --> 00:42:41.199
Now we're a hair outside of AI here, but crypto is all very much up in the same world.
00:42:41.360 --> 00:42:52.159
And he was posting about how like uh it was imperative that we pass this um Crypto Clarity Act, um, which is gonna do so much good for the people of the district.
00:42:52.239 --> 00:42:56.320
And I'm it's because he's trying to get the big money from the crypto industry.
00:42:56.400 --> 00:42:57.920
So he's putting up a flair.
00:42:58.000 --> 00:43:01.119
And it's like, man, nobody, nobody wants this.
00:43:01.280 --> 00:43:02.239
Nobody cares.
00:43:02.400 --> 00:43:03.199
Nobody cares.
00:43:03.440 --> 00:43:14.239
It's like, I mean, he's he's not doing a lot of public events, and then all of a sudden he's communicating on um the issue that everybody wants to know about, which is your stance on the Crypto Clarity Act.
00:43:14.320 --> 00:43:15.760
It's just kind of ridiculous.
00:43:16.000 --> 00:43:29.599
My other opponent, Bridget Brink, um, you know, has taken a lot of money from Silicon Valley and um, you know, Venture Capital and Wall Street that are investing in the AI and in data centers.
00:43:29.679 --> 00:43:41.599
Um, one of her um max donors um, you know, has uh several gigawatts of um AI data centers in the development pipeline at this very moment.
00:43:41.920 --> 00:43:50.480
And so both of them are fundamentally in the pocket of Silicon Valley and Wall Street.
00:43:50.559 --> 00:43:53.360
You look at their disclosure statements, and that's what you'll see.
00:43:53.519 --> 00:43:59.760
It's donor after donor after donor who are giving$3,500 from major Wall Street.
00:44:00.239 --> 00:44:07.039
Street and Silicon Valley firms, and that's who they will answer to if they get elected to Congress.
00:44:07.280 --> 00:44:09.679
And I don't think that that's acceptable.
00:44:10.320 --> 00:44:10.880
Wow, yeah.
00:44:11.119 --> 00:44:14.400
Daylight is was maybe an understatement when we really get into it.
00:44:14.559 --> 00:44:16.960
I mean, these you know, and the money is just crazy.
00:44:17.039 --> 00:44:30.960
So I mean it sounds like basically the other candidates are not only uh silent on the data center and AI issue, but actually working directly with the folks who are trying to swallow up land, water, and energy in the state of Michigan.
00:44:31.360 --> 00:44:37.840
I don't know how it could be otherwise should they get elected, because who you take money from is who you're accountable to.
00:44:38.000 --> 00:44:46.559
And if you have no ties to this district, which is true for my two opponents, neither of them had ever lived here in the district prior to running for this seat.
00:44:46.639 --> 00:44:54.159
They both bought homes in the district last year and are now claiming to to to represent us, you have no ties in the district.
00:44:54.400 --> 00:45:00.000
You are taking your money from Silicon Valley and Wall Street and you know, major health insurance executives.
00:45:00.159 --> 00:45:02.960
That is who you will be accountable to once you get elected.
00:45:03.360 --> 00:45:04.719
So did they get a duplex?
00:45:04.800 --> 00:45:10.639
I mean, is it is it shared housing for people who are moving into the district to run?
00:45:12.159 --> 00:45:13.199
That's a good idea.
00:45:13.280 --> 00:45:15.039
You know, maybe that's a growth industry.
00:45:15.199 --> 00:45:21.360
Um, but hopefully not, because I'm gonna win this primary and then we're gonna hold this district down um for years to come.
00:45:21.519 --> 00:45:23.599
But you know, it does, it does make me mad.
00:45:23.760 --> 00:45:28.239
I mean, you know, I'm uh I've been clear all along that like, look, we've got to flip this district.
00:45:28.320 --> 00:45:34.480
I do believe we need a Democrat to win this seat, and any of the three Democrats in this race would sure be better than Tom Barrett.
00:45:34.960 --> 00:45:47.599
But are any of these are are are any of the other candidates, Democrats or Republicans, going to represent the people in this district who don't trust Silicon Valley and AI data center companies?
00:45:47.760 --> 00:45:48.559
Certainly they won't.
00:45:48.639 --> 00:45:52.559
I'm the only candidate who's capable of doing that because I'm the only one who isn't taking the big money.
00:45:52.800 --> 00:45:53.199
I love it.
00:45:53.280 --> 00:45:54.079
Thanks so much, Ro.
00:45:54.320 --> 00:45:56.320
Thanks for your time, and uh let's talk more soon.
00:45:56.559 --> 00:45:58.000
Thanks, all this is fun.
00:46:02.800 --> 00:46:08.559
That was my conversation with Michigan political candidates Abdul Said and William Morris.
00:46:09.039 --> 00:46:16.880
While establishment candidates are reaching for Silicon Valley money, Michigan hopefuls in both parties who are fighting back are gaining ground.
00:46:17.039 --> 00:46:18.719
You've been listening to The Hum.
00:46:18.960 --> 00:46:26.639
We're publishing new episodes weekly, so if you like what you heard, please subscribe and download this episode and everyone before and after it.
00:46:26.880 --> 00:46:33.199
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00:46:33.440 --> 00:46:38.559
Note, our conversation with Al Saeed was recorded in February 2026.
00:46:39.360 --> 00:46:43.360
Disclaimer, this podcast is an educational project.
00:46:43.599 --> 00:46:47.920
We're not encouraging support or endorsing specific candidates or parties.
00:46:48.559 --> 00:46:51.599
The Hum is produced in partnership with Rohome Productions.
00:46:51.760 --> 00:46:54.320
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00:46:54.400 --> 00:46:56.800
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00:46:57.039 --> 00:46:58.960
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00:46:59.119 --> 00:47:04.880
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00:47:05.039 --> 00:47:08.000
I'm Saul Levin, your host and banjo journeyman.
00:47:08.079 --> 00:47:10.880
Thanks for listening and see you next Tuesday.