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Welcome to Headstones and Microphones
where we use AI to step into the past through
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a researched, first-person simulation of
history's most interesting people.
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I am your host, Calvin.
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While we've added some creative
storytelling, our goal is to inspire your own study
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of these fascinating lives.
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Now, let's meet our guest.
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For those who may somehow not know who you
are...
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who are you?
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I am Annie Turnbo Malone.
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I am an entrepreneur, an inventor, a
chemist, and a proud philanthropist who
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dedicated her life to the haircare
industry, education, and uplifting my community.
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Wonderful to meet you, Annie.
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Let's start at the very beginning.
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When and where were you born?
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I was born on August 9, 1869, in a town
called Metropolis, Illinois.
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What was your given name at birth?
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At birth, I was named Annie Minerva
Turnbo.
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Is there a story behind your birth name?
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There isn't a specific legendary tale
about my name itself,
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but the family I was born into carried a
deep history.
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My parents, Robert and Isabella Turnbo,
had been enslaved.
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My father actually went on to fight for
freedom by joining the Union Army during the
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Civil War.
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Being born a free child to parents who
fought so hard for liberty-that was the real
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story and foundation of my life.
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What was your hometown like growing up?
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Metropolis sat right on the Ohio River, so
it was a busy little river town.
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It was a modest place, quite rural in many
areas, full of hard-working folks just
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trying to build up their lives after the
war.
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What was your family life like?
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I was the tenth of eleven children, so you
can imagine it was a very busy,
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full house!
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Sadly, tragedy struck us early on.
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Both of my parents passed away when I was
quite young.
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Because of that, I was orphaned and went
to live with my older sister,
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Ada Moody, who took over raising me in
Peoria, Illinois.
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Even though we faced immense loss, we
stayed incredibly close-knit and supported one
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another.
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What kind of kid were you?
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Oh, I was an incredibly curious girl,
though a bit fragile in health.
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I loved public school, but I frequently
grew ill, which kept me away from the
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classroom more than I would have liked.
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But even when my body was resting, my mind
was working.
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I was fascinated by the world around me,
especially how things were made and how
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things worked.
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What were your biggest fears growing up?
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Growing up as an orphan in a world that
was still very harsh and deeply divided,
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my biggest fear was that the people around
me-especially Black women-would never get
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the chance to realize their full
potential, beauty, and independence.
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I feared stagnation and seeing my
community held back by a lack of resources or
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self-confidence.
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What did you dream of becoming as a child?
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From a very early age, I loved fashioning
hair.
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I would practice constantly on my sisters'
hair.
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As I grew a bit older, I developed a deep
love for chemistry.
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I dreamed of marrying those two passions
together.
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I wanted to become what we called a
"beauty doctor" and create things that genuinely
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helped people feel proud of who they were.
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What were some of your favorite activities
in school?
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Hands down, it was science and chemistry!
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I loved learning how different ingredients
interacted with one another.
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Even though my illnesses eventually forced
me to withdraw from Peoria High School
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before I could graduate, that love for
chemistry never left me.
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It became the laboratory for my life's
work.
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What was your first job?
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My first real hands-on work was practicing
hairdressing alongside my sister.
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We worked diligently together, handling
the hair of women in our community,
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which gave me the perfect insight into
what their scalps and hair truly needed.
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Was there a moment where you realized you
were different from everyone else?
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It was when I noticed the terrible damage
being done to women's hair.
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Back then, the common practice was to use
things like goose fat,
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bacon grease, heavy oils, and harsh
chemical straighteners that literally burned the
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scalp and caused hair loss.
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I looked at that and thought, "There must
be a better, healthier way."
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While others accepted it as the norm, I
saw it as a problem that science could
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solve.
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What's a decision that changed everything
for you, but felt small at the time?
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Around the turn of the century, while
living in Brooklyn, Illinois,
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I finally formulated a special chemical
product that helped hair grow and look
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beautiful without causing a single bit of
damage.
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I decided to call it the "Wonderful Hair
Grower."
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I started traveling around in a horse and
buggy, giving free demonstrations and
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making speeches on street corners to show
women how it worked.
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It started out as just me in a buggy, but
that small decision to take my creation
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directly to the people changed the entire
course of my life.
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What was your biggest break?
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My biggest break came in 1902 when I
decided to move my operations to St.
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Louis, Missouri.
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The city had one of the largest African
American populations in the country,
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and the 1904 World's Fair was just around
the corner.
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It was there that my business truly
exploded.
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We went door-to-door, gave free
treatments, and the word-of-mouth advertising spread
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like wildfire.
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What were your biggest struggles before
success?
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In the beginning, it was a lack of capital
and a lack of trust.
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As a young Black woman trying to sell a
homemade product, people were naturally
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skeptical.
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I had to manufacture everything right out
of my own home, adjusting formulas on my
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sisters and friends, and physically carry
my products to the market myself.
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Did you ever consider quitting?
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Never.
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Not even for a moment.
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When you see the confidence return to a
woman's face when she realizes she doesn't
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have to suffer to look beautiful, it gives
you a purpose that far outweighs any
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exhaustion or doubt.
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Were there any specific daily habits or
routines that you feel are essential to your
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success?
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Cleanliness, strict punctuality, and a
polished personal presentation.
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When I later opened Poro College, our
training school, I didn't just teach hair
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care; I taught our agents how to walk, how
to talk, how to dress for business,
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and how to hold their heads high.
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Keeping a meticulous routine of personal
discipline was something I practiced every
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single day.
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What job would you have had if fame never
happened?
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I believe I still would have been a
teacher or a chemist working somewhere quietly
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behind the scenes.
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Helping people learn and unlocking the
secrets of science were simply wired into my
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soul.
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What was your life like before fame?
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It was quiet, modest, and filled with a
lot of hard, physical labor.
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It was a life of stirring pots on a stove,
packaging bottles by hand,
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and traveling long, dusty miles by
carriage hoping someone would buy a single bottle
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of hair grower.
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How did relationships change after
success?
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Success certainly brings complexity.
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As my business grew, I hired many agents,
including a bright young woman named Sarah
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Breedlove-who the world later came to know
as Madam C.J.
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Walker.
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She was a talented agent of mine, but we
eventually had a falling out over business
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directions, and she went on to create her
own line.
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It taught me that business can test
relationships, which is why I eventually
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copyrighted my brand under the name "Poro"
to protect my original work.
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Did fame bring happiness?
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Fame itself didn't bring me joy, but the
wealth allowed me to find true fulfillment
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through giving.
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Being able to share my fortune is what
made me genuinely happy.
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What was the downside of becoming famous?
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The public scrutiny and the legal battles.
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When you achieve a high level of financial
success, especially as a woman,
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people unfortunately try to take a piece
of it.
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My divorce from my second husband in the
late 1920s became a massive,
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highly publicized legal battle over the
Poro empire, which was incredibly taxing.
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What misconceptions did people have about
you?
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Some people thought I was just a
salesperson or a lucky face behind a brand.
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They didn't realize that I was the actual
chemist who formulated the products in the
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first place, and the master strategist who
designed the direct-sales franchise
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model.
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What was your darkest moment?
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The legal disputes over my company,
combined with the onset of the Great Depression,
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were incredibly heavy.
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Having to dismantle parts of the empire I
built in St.
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Louis and relocate my headquarters to
Chicago's South Side in 1930 was a profound
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challenge that tested all of my resolve.
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What past regrets did you carry, that you
spoke about?
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If I carried a regret, it was that I
couldn't completely protect the vast empire I
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built from the hands of government tax
collectors and intense litigation in my later
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years.
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But I comforted myself knowing that the
knowledge and skills I gave to my students
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could never be taken away.
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What's something people misunderstood
about your life?
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People often look at the end of my life
and see that I lost my vast multi-million
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dollar fortune, assuming it was all just
bad business.
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What they misunderstand is just how much
of my wealth I gave away intentionally!
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I poured hundreds of thousands of dollars
into charities, medical schools,
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and orphanages because I cared far more
about building up people than stacking up
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paper.
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Tell me about a time when everything went
wrong and how did you handle it?
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When competitors began copying my formulas
and claiming them as their own,
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it threatened to ruin everything I had
built.
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Instead of panicking, I handled it with
strategy.
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I rebranded everything under the West
African name "Poro"-a word signifying physical
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and spiritual discipline.
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I legally registered it and elevated our
training standards so high that no
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competitor could match the dignity of a
true Poro agent.
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Did fame and fortune change your life?
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It changed my surroundings, certainly!
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I went from a humble buggy to owning
massive, beautiful buildings with rooftop
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gardens, a chapel, and an auditorium.
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But it never changed my heart or my
values.
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I stayed a simple woman dedicated to
service.
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What personal battles were you fighting
privately?
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Managing the stress of a global business
with tens of thousands of agents while
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constantly navigating the systemic racial
and gender barriers of the early twentieth
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century was a heavy, exhausting daily
battle.
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Who had the biggest influence on your
life?
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My older sister, Ada.
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When our parents died, she stepped up to
give me a home, a sense of security,
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and she was the one who introduced me to
the art of hairdressing.
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Without her guiding hand, the spark for
Poro may never have caught fire.
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What was life like in your final years?
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My final years were much quieter and far
more modest.
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I lived in Chicago, removed from the grand
spotlight I once commanded,
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but I was still surrounded by the respect
of the industry I helped pioneer.
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What were you working on in your career
before you passed away?
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Even as my health slowed me down, I
remained dedicated to supporting the National
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Beauty Culturists League and ensuring that
the history of Black cosmetology was
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preserved and respected.
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When and where and how did you pass away
and how old were you?
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I passed away on May 10, 1957, at
Provident Hospital in Chicago,
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Illinois.
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I suffered a stroke and was 87 years old
at the time of my passing.
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What's a random fact about you most people
have never heard?
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I used to give lavish, extraordinary gifts
to my employees just for things like
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perfect attendance, punctuality, or as
rewards to help them invest in buying their
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own real estate!
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I believed an employer should uplift her
workers' lives completely.
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What's the craziest rumor ever told about
you?
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During the height of my success, because a
Black woman accumulating millions of
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dollars was so unheard of, people rumored
that I must have discovered some magical,
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secret occult formula from overseas,
rather than just giving credit to my hard work,
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dedication, and knowledge of chemistry!
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What was your most unique habit?
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I loved traveling to study beauty culture
methods.
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In 1924, I took a massive trip all the way
to Europe just to observe and learn their
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techniques so I could bring that advanced
knowledge back to my students at Poro
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College.
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Did you have any known rivalries?
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My relationship with Madam C.J.
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Walker was viewed by the public as a
massive, fierce rivalry.
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While we were certainly direct competitors
in the market, I always maintained that
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the market was vast, and the ultimate goal
was the elevation of Black women.
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Tell us a story nobody talks about.
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People remember Poro College as a beauty
school, but during the devastating St.
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Louis race riots of 1917, our campus
became a sanctuary.
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We opened our doors to provide shelter,
food, and medical clothing to hundreds of
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displaced people.
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It was a haven of safety when the world
outside was burning.
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What's your funniest behind-the-scenes
moment?
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In the early days, when I was trying to
mix formulas in my kitchen,
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a batch boomed a bit too loudly and scared
my sisters half to death!
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00:13:44,065 --> 00:13:48,877
They thought I was going to blow the roof
right off the house with my experiments.
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00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:50,199
Did you ever prank someone?
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00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:55,471
I wasn't much of a traditional jokester,
but I did love to surprise my nieces and
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00:13:55,535 --> 00:14:01,155
nephews by hiding financial gifts and
tuition money in completely mundane household
235
00:14:01,235 --> 00:14:03,951
items for them to find when they least
expected it.
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00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:07,878
What was the most outlandish purchase you
made?
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00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:10,317
Buying an entire city block in St.
238
00:14:10,397 --> 00:14:14,319
Louis to construct the massive Poro
College complex!
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00:14:14,452 --> 00:14:19,674
It featured a factory, a bakery, a gym,
and a beautiful roof garden.
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00:14:19,765 --> 00:14:24,551
People thought a woman buying that much
real estate was completely outlandish,
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00:14:24,591 --> 00:14:27,030
but it was exactly what our community
deserved.
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00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:30,640
What advice would you give people chasing
success?
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00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:33,640
Do not build an empire just to sit on a
throne.
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00:14:33,733 --> 00:14:38,115
Build an empire so you can construct a
ladder for others to climb up with you.
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00:14:38,243 --> 00:14:41,803
True success is measured by how many
people you bring along.
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00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:45,838
Annie, do you have any closing remarks
about the interview or the stories you shared
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00:14:45,870 --> 00:14:48,478
that you would like to share with the
listeners before we sign off?
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00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:53,959
I just want to remind everyone listening
that your beginnings do not define your
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00:14:54,049 --> 00:14:54,839
endings.
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00:14:54,967 --> 00:15:00,597
Keep studying, keep serving your
community, and never underestimate the power of a
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00:15:00,645 --> 00:15:03,877
good idea mixed with a lot of faith and
discipline.
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00:15:03,984 --> 00:15:09,075
Thank you so much for having me on the
show, Calvin, it has been an absolute joy!
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00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:13,930
What an incredible journey from a horse
and buggy to a global empire.
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00:15:14,130 --> 00:15:18,889
Annie Turnbo Malone reminds us all of the
power of innovation,
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00:15:18,940 --> 00:15:21,213
resilience, and true generosity.
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00:15:21,593 --> 00:15:25,371
And that wraps up another conversation
from beyond the grave.
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00:15:25,531 --> 00:15:29,367
Thanks for joining us on The Headstones
and Microphones Podcast.
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00:15:29,456 --> 00:15:33,287
Remember-legends may die, but their
stories never do.
259
00:15:33,470 --> 00:15:37,210
Please help spread the word by sharing and
following the pod.
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,642
Welcome to Headstones and Microphones
where we use AI to step into the past through
2
00:00:04,722 --> 00:00:09,046
a researched, first-person simulation of
history's most interesting people.
3
00:00:09,526 --> 00:00:11,890
I am your host, Calvin.
4
00:00:11,990 --> 00:00:16,884
While we've added some creative
storytelling, our goal is to inspire your own study
5
00:00:16,937 --> 00:00:18,485
of these fascinating lives.
6
00:00:18,765 --> 00:00:20,807
Now, let's meet our guest.
7
00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:25,640
For those who may somehow not know who you
are...
8
00:00:25,680 --> 00:00:26,200
who are you?
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00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:29,083
I am Annie Turnbo Malone.
10
00:00:29,403 --> 00:00:36,194
I am an entrepreneur, an inventor, a
chemist, and a proud philanthropist who
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00:00:36,258 --> 00:00:42,831
dedicated her life to the haircare
industry, education, and uplifting my community.
12
00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:44,120
Wonderful to meet you, Annie.
13
00:00:44,280 --> 00:00:46,361
Let's start at the very beginning.
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00:00:46,537 --> 00:00:48,843
When and where were you born?
15
00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:54,760
I was born on August 9, 1869, in a town
called Metropolis, Illinois.
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00:00:55,000 --> 00:00:56,757
What was your given name at birth?
17
00:00:57,000 --> 00:01:00,926
At birth, I was named Annie Minerva
Turnbo.
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00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:02,925
Is there a story behind your birth name?
19
00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:06,514
There isn't a specific legendary tale
about my name itself,
20
00:01:06,534 --> 00:01:09,233
but the family I was born into carried a
deep history.
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00:01:09,420 --> 00:01:13,390
My parents, Robert and Isabella Turnbo,
had been enslaved.
22
00:01:13,550 --> 00:01:17,383
My father actually went on to fight for
freedom by joining the Union Army during the
23
00:01:17,423 --> 00:01:18,423
Civil War.
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00:01:18,543 --> 00:01:23,464
Being born a free child to parents who
fought so hard for liberty-that was the real
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00:01:23,531 --> 00:01:25,308
story and foundation of my life.
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00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:28,319
What was your hometown like growing up?
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00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:33,873
Metropolis sat right on the Ohio River, so
it was a busy little river town.
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00:01:33,900 --> 00:01:38,753
It was a modest place, quite rural in many
areas, full of hard-working folks just
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00:01:38,787 --> 00:01:40,991
trying to build up their lives after the
war.
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00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:43,522
What was your family life like?
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00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:49,514
I was the tenth of eleven children, so you
can imagine it was a very busy,
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00:01:49,578 --> 00:01:50,794
full house!
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00:01:50,941 --> 00:01:53,677
Sadly, tragedy struck us early on.
34
00:01:53,773 --> 00:01:56,878
Both of my parents passed away when I was
quite young.
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00:01:56,988 --> 00:02:01,124
Because of that, I was orphaned and went
to live with my older sister,
36
00:02:01,204 --> 00:02:04,721
Ada Moody, who took over raising me in
Peoria, Illinois.
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00:02:04,945 --> 00:02:10,641
Even though we faced immense loss, we
stayed incredibly close-knit and supported one
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00:02:10,691 --> 00:02:11,121
another.
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00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:14,721
What kind of kid were you?
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00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:18,763
Oh, I was an incredibly curious girl,
though a bit fragile in health.
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00:02:19,003 --> 00:02:22,689
I loved public school, but I frequently
grew ill, which kept me away from the
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00:02:22,745 --> 00:02:24,449
classroom more than I would have liked.
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00:02:24,569 --> 00:02:27,487
But even when my body was resting, my mind
was working.
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00:02:27,687 --> 00:02:31,879
I was fascinated by the world around me,
especially how things were made and how
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00:02:31,913 --> 00:02:32,920
things worked.
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00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:35,922
What were your biggest fears growing up?
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00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:42,246
Growing up as an orphan in a world that
was still very harsh and deeply divided,
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00:02:42,273 --> 00:02:47,368
my biggest fear was that the people around
me-especially Black women-would never get
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00:02:47,408 --> 00:02:52,099
the chance to realize their full
potential, beauty, and independence.
50
00:02:52,419 --> 00:02:57,536
I feared stagnation and seeing my
community held back by a lack of resources or
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00:02:57,584 --> 00:02:58,734
self-confidence.
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00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:01,078
What did you dream of becoming as a child?
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00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:05,361
From a very early age, I loved fashioning
hair.
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00:03:05,401 --> 00:03:07,927
I would practice constantly on my sisters'
hair.
55
00:03:08,114 --> 00:03:11,650
As I grew a bit older, I developed a deep
love for chemistry.
56
00:03:11,750 --> 00:03:14,319
I dreamed of marrying those two passions
together.
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00:03:14,639 --> 00:03:19,362
I wanted to become what we called a
"beauty doctor" and create things that genuinely
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00:03:19,396 --> 00:03:21,519
helped people feel proud of who they were.
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00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:24,246
What were some of your favorite activities
in school?
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00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:27,959
Hands down, it was science and chemistry!
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00:03:28,199 --> 00:03:31,725
I loved learning how different ingredients
interacted with one another.
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00:03:31,853 --> 00:03:36,126
Even though my illnesses eventually forced
me to withdraw from Peoria High School
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00:03:36,206 --> 00:03:40,043
before I could graduate, that love for
chemistry never left me.
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00:03:40,150 --> 00:03:42,523
It became the laboratory for my life's
work.
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00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:44,358
What was your first job?
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00:03:45,000 --> 00:03:49,639
My first real hands-on work was practicing
hairdressing alongside my sister.
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00:03:49,666 --> 00:03:53,553
We worked diligently together, handling
the hair of women in our community,
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00:03:53,580 --> 00:03:57,317
which gave me the perfect insight into
what their scalps and hair truly needed.
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00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:01,359
Was there a moment where you realized you
were different from everyone else?
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00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:05,362
It was when I noticed the terrible damage
being done to women's hair.
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00:04:05,458 --> 00:04:09,359
Back then, the common practice was to use
things like goose fat,
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00:04:09,412 --> 00:04:13,684
bacon grease, heavy oils, and harsh
chemical straighteners that literally burned the
73
00:04:13,751 --> 00:04:15,528
scalp and caused hair loss.
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00:04:15,728 --> 00:04:19,131
I looked at that and thought, "There must
be a better, healthier way."
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00:04:19,198 --> 00:04:23,212
While others accepted it as the norm, I
saw it as a problem that science could
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00:04:23,305 --> 00:04:24,090
solve.
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00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:29,160
What's a decision that changed everything
for you, but felt small at the time?
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00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:33,115
Around the turn of the century, while
living in Brooklyn, Illinois,
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00:04:33,195 --> 00:04:37,430
I finally formulated a special chemical
product that helped hair grow and look
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00:04:37,486 --> 00:04:40,470
beautiful without causing a single bit of
damage.
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00:04:40,630 --> 00:04:43,665
I decided to call it the "Wonderful Hair
Grower."
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00:04:43,945 --> 00:04:48,058
I started traveling around in a horse and
buggy, giving free demonstrations and
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00:04:48,104 --> 00:04:51,332
making speeches on street corners to show
women how it worked.
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00:04:51,492 --> 00:04:55,962
It started out as just me in a buggy, but
that small decision to take my creation
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00:04:56,006 --> 00:04:59,399
directly to the people changed the entire
course of my life.
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00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:01,198
What was your biggest break?
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00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:06,636
My biggest break came in 1902 when I
decided to move my operations to St.
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00:05:06,676 --> 00:05:07,679
Louis, Missouri.
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00:05:07,819 --> 00:05:11,917
The city had one of the largest African
American populations in the country,
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00:05:11,937 --> 00:05:15,033
and the 1904 World's Fair was just around
the corner.
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00:05:15,113 --> 00:05:17,356
It was there that my business truly
exploded.
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00:05:17,516 --> 00:05:22,073
We went door-to-door, gave free
treatments, and the word-of-mouth advertising spread
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00:05:22,121 --> 00:05:23,195
like wildfire.
94
00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:26,640
What were your biggest struggles before
success?
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00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:30,681
In the beginning, it was a lack of capital
and a lack of trust.
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00:05:30,894 --> 00:05:35,236
As a young Black woman trying to sell a
homemade product, people were naturally
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00:05:35,292 --> 00:05:35,876
skeptical.
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00:05:36,116 --> 00:05:40,355
I had to manufacture everything right out
of my own home, adjusting formulas on my
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00:05:40,395 --> 00:05:44,347
sisters and friends, and physically carry
my products to the market myself.
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00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:46,354
Did you ever consider quitting?
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00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:47,480
Never.
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00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:48,843
Not even for a moment.
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00:05:48,955 --> 00:05:53,250
When you see the confidence return to a
woman's face when she realizes she doesn't
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00:05:53,282 --> 00:05:57,569
have to suffer to look beautiful, it gives
you a purpose that far outweighs any
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00:05:57,649 --> 00:05:59,248
exhaustion or doubt.
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00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:04,235
Were there any specific daily habits or
routines that you feel are essential to your
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00:06:04,295 --> 00:06:04,795
success?
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00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:09,721
Cleanliness, strict punctuality, and a
polished personal presentation.
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00:06:09,849 --> 00:06:14,994
When I later opened Poro College, our
training school, I didn't just teach hair
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00:06:15,074 --> 00:06:20,827
care; I taught our agents how to walk, how
to talk, how to dress for business,
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00:06:20,847 --> 00:06:22,668
and how to hold their heads high.
112
00:06:22,778 --> 00:06:28,099
Keeping a meticulous routine of personal
discipline was something I practiced every
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00:06:28,179 --> 00:06:29,219
single day.
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00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:32,879
What job would you have had if fame never
happened?
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00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:37,320
I believe I still would have been a
teacher or a chemist working somewhere quietly
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00:06:37,366 --> 00:06:38,762
behind the scenes.
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00:06:38,822 --> 00:06:43,561
Helping people learn and unlocking the
secrets of science were simply wired into my
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00:06:43,657 --> 00:06:44,201
soul.
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00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:47,163
What was your life like before fame?
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00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:52,641
It was quiet, modest, and filled with a
lot of hard, physical labor.
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00:06:52,881 --> 00:06:57,600
It was a life of stirring pots on a stove,
packaging bottles by hand,
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00:06:57,620 --> 00:07:02,317
and traveling long, dusty miles by
carriage hoping someone would buy a single bottle
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00:07:02,370 --> 00:07:03,276
of hair grower.
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00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:06,235
How did relationships change after
success?
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00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:09,560
Success certainly brings complexity.
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00:07:09,613 --> 00:07:14,271
As my business grew, I hired many agents,
including a bright young woman named Sarah
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00:07:14,324 --> 00:07:17,949
Breedlove-who the world later came to know
as Madam C.J.
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00:07:17,983 --> 00:07:18,267
Walker.
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00:07:18,447 --> 00:07:22,984
She was a talented agent of mine, but we
eventually had a falling out over business
130
00:07:23,035 --> 00:07:25,781
directions, and she went on to create her
own line.
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00:07:26,048 --> 00:07:30,260
It taught me that business can test
relationships, which is why I eventually
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00:07:30,313 --> 00:07:34,646
copyrighted my brand under the name "Poro"
to protect my original work.
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00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:36,359
Did fame bring happiness?
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00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:42,281
Fame itself didn't bring me joy, but the
wealth allowed me to find true fulfillment
135
00:07:42,321 --> 00:07:43,164
through giving.
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00:07:43,337 --> 00:07:48,604
Being able to share my fortune is what
made me genuinely happy.
137
00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:51,162
What was the downside of becoming famous?
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00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:54,637
The public scrutiny and the legal battles.
139
00:07:54,717 --> 00:07:59,196
When you achieve a high level of financial
success, especially as a woman,
140
00:07:59,242 --> 00:08:01,518
people unfortunately try to take a piece
of it.
141
00:08:01,785 --> 00:08:06,721
My divorce from my second husband in the
late 1920s became a massive,
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00:08:06,767 --> 00:08:12,638
highly publicized legal battle over the
Poro empire, which was incredibly taxing.
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00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:15,479
What misconceptions did people have about
you?
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00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:21,042
Some people thought I was just a
salesperson or a lucky face behind a brand.
145
00:08:21,058 --> 00:08:24,880
They didn't realize that I was the actual
chemist who formulated the products in the
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00:08:24,920 --> 00:08:29,277
first place, and the master strategist who
designed the direct-sales franchise
147
00:08:29,330 --> 00:08:29,835
model.
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00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:31,683
What was your darkest moment?
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00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:36,559
The legal disputes over my company,
combined with the onset of the Great Depression,
150
00:08:36,591 --> 00:08:37,996
were incredibly heavy.
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00:08:38,110 --> 00:08:41,276
Having to dismantle parts of the empire I
built in St.
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00:08:41,343 --> 00:08:46,958
Louis and relocate my headquarters to
Chicago's South Side in 1930 was a profound
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00:08:47,022 --> 00:08:49,841
challenge that tested all of my resolve.
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00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:53,678
What past regrets did you carry, that you
spoke about?
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00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:58,161
If I carried a regret, it was that I
couldn't completely protect the vast empire I
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00:08:58,201 --> 00:09:02,236
built from the hands of government tax
collectors and intense litigation in my later
157
00:09:02,316 --> 00:09:03,116
years.
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00:09:03,196 --> 00:09:07,593
But I comforted myself knowing that the
knowledge and skills I gave to my students
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00:09:07,660 --> 00:09:09,192
could never be taken away.
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00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:12,875
What's something people misunderstood
about your life?
161
00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:18,918
People often look at the end of my life
and see that I lost my vast multi-million
162
00:09:18,964 --> 00:09:22,595
dollar fortune, assuming it was all just
bad business.
163
00:09:22,627 --> 00:09:27,711
What they misunderstand is just how much
of my wealth I gave away intentionally!
164
00:09:27,791 --> 00:09:32,191
I poured hundreds of thousands of dollars
into charities, medical schools,
165
00:09:32,211 --> 00:09:37,074
and orphanages because I cared far more
about building up people than stacking up
166
00:09:37,141 --> 00:09:37,716
paper.
167
00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:41,603
Tell me about a time when everything went
wrong and how did you handle it?
168
00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:46,557
When competitors began copying my formulas
and claiming them as their own,
169
00:09:46,584 --> 00:09:49,273
it threatened to ruin everything I had
built.
170
00:09:49,333 --> 00:09:52,552
Instead of panicking, I handled it with
strategy.
171
00:09:52,672 --> 00:09:58,227
I rebranded everything under the West
African name "Poro"-a word signifying physical
172
00:09:58,267 --> 00:09:59,585
and spiritual discipline.
173
00:09:59,745 --> 00:10:04,620
I legally registered it and elevated our
training standards so high that no
174
00:10:04,678 --> 00:10:08,058
competitor could match the dignity of a
true Poro agent.
175
00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:11,479
Did fame and fortune change your life?
176
00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:14,314
It changed my surroundings, certainly!
177
00:10:14,554 --> 00:10:19,834
I went from a humble buggy to owning
massive, beautiful buildings with rooftop
178
00:10:19,924 --> 00:10:23,194
gardens, a chapel, and an auditorium.
179
00:10:23,334 --> 00:10:26,870
But it never changed my heart or my
values.
180
00:10:27,070 --> 00:10:30,469
I stayed a simple woman dedicated to
service.
181
00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:33,554
What personal battles were you fighting
privately?
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00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:38,876
Managing the stress of a global business
with tens of thousands of agents while
183
00:10:38,934 --> 00:10:43,424
constantly navigating the systemic racial
and gender barriers of the early twentieth
184
00:10:43,494 --> 00:10:46,942
century was a heavy, exhausting daily
battle.
185
00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:50,078
Who had the biggest influence on your
life?
186
00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:52,677
My older sister, Ada.
187
00:10:52,869 --> 00:10:58,195
When our parents died, she stepped up to
give me a home, a sense of security,
188
00:10:58,215 --> 00:11:01,396
and she was the one who introduced me to
the art of hairdressing.
189
00:11:01,496 --> 00:11:06,279
Without her guiding hand, the spark for
Poro may never have caught fire.
190
00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:09,324
What was life like in your final years?
191
00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:13,765
My final years were much quieter and far
more modest.
192
00:11:14,005 --> 00:11:18,728
I lived in Chicago, removed from the grand
spotlight I once commanded,
193
00:11:18,748 --> 00:11:22,886
but I was still surrounded by the respect
of the industry I helped pioneer.
194
00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:27,038
What were you working on in your career
before you passed away?
195
00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:32,641
Even as my health slowed me down, I
remained dedicated to supporting the National
196
00:11:32,675 --> 00:11:37,353
Beauty Culturists League and ensuring that
the history of Black cosmetology was
197
00:11:37,425 --> 00:11:39,273
preserved and respected.
198
00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:43,598
When and where and how did you pass away
and how old were you?
199
00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:48,795
I passed away on May 10, 1957, at
Provident Hospital in Chicago,
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Illinois.
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I suffered a stroke and was 87 years old
at the time of my passing.
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What's a random fact about you most people
have never heard?
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I used to give lavish, extraordinary gifts
to my employees just for things like
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00:12:02,602 --> 00:12:07,352
perfect attendance, punctuality, or as
rewards to help them invest in buying their
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own real estate!
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00:12:08,555 --> 00:12:12,237
I believed an employer should uplift her
workers' lives completely.
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What's the craziest rumor ever told about
you?
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During the height of my success, because a
Black woman accumulating millions of
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00:12:20,525 --> 00:12:25,279
dollars was so unheard of, people rumored
that I must have discovered some magical,
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secret occult formula from overseas,
rather than just giving credit to my hard work,
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dedication, and knowledge of chemistry!
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What was your most unique habit?
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00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:38,957
I loved traveling to study beauty culture
methods.
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00:12:39,117 --> 00:12:44,475
In 1924, I took a massive trip all the way
to Europe just to observe and learn their
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00:12:44,533 --> 00:12:48,387
techniques so I could bring that advanced
knowledge back to my students at Poro
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College.
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Did you have any known rivalries?
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My relationship with Madam C.J.
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00:12:53,668 --> 00:12:58,325
Walker was viewed by the public as a
massive, fierce rivalry.
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While we were certainly direct competitors
in the market, I always maintained that
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the market was vast, and the ultimate goal
was the elevation of Black women.
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Tell us a story nobody talks about.
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People remember Poro College as a beauty
school, but during the devastating St.
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00:13:15,542 --> 00:13:20,041
Louis race riots of 1917, our campus
became a sanctuary.
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00:13:20,254 --> 00:13:25,238
We opened our doors to provide shelter,
food, and medical clothing to hundreds of
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00:13:25,286 --> 00:13:26,281
displaced people.
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It was a haven of safety when the world
outside was burning.
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00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:33,321
What's your funniest behind-the-scenes
moment?
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00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:38,556
In the early days, when I was trying to
mix formulas in my kitchen,
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00:13:38,636 --> 00:13:43,921
a batch boomed a bit too loudly and scared
my sisters half to death!
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00:13:44,065 --> 00:13:48,877
They thought I was going to blow the roof
right off the house with my experiments.
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Did you ever prank someone?
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00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:55,471
I wasn't much of a traditional jokester,
but I did love to surprise my nieces and
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00:13:55,535 --> 00:14:01,155
nephews by hiding financial gifts and
tuition money in completely mundane household
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00:14:01,235 --> 00:14:03,951
items for them to find when they least
expected it.
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00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:07,878
What was the most outlandish purchase you
made?
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00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:10,317
Buying an entire city block in St.
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00:14:10,397 --> 00:14:14,319
Louis to construct the massive Poro
College complex!
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00:14:14,452 --> 00:14:19,674
It featured a factory, a bakery, a gym,
and a beautiful roof garden.
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00:14:19,765 --> 00:14:24,551
People thought a woman buying that much
real estate was completely outlandish,
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00:14:24,591 --> 00:14:27,030
but it was exactly what our community
deserved.
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00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:30,640
What advice would you give people chasing
success?
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00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:33,640
Do not build an empire just to sit on a
throne.
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00:14:33,733 --> 00:14:38,115
Build an empire so you can construct a
ladder for others to climb up with you.
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00:14:38,243 --> 00:14:41,803
True success is measured by how many
people you bring along.
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00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:45,838
Annie, do you have any closing remarks
about the interview or the stories you shared
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00:14:45,870 --> 00:14:48,478
that you would like to share with the
listeners before we sign off?
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I just want to remind everyone listening
that your beginnings do not define your
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00:14:54,049 --> 00:14:54,839
endings.
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00:14:54,967 --> 00:15:00,597
Keep studying, keep serving your
community, and never underestimate the power of a
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00:15:00,645 --> 00:15:03,877
good idea mixed with a lot of faith and
discipline.
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00:15:03,984 --> 00:15:09,075
Thank you so much for having me on the
show, Calvin, it has been an absolute joy!
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What an incredible journey from a horse
and buggy to a global empire.
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00:15:14,130 --> 00:15:18,889
Annie Turnbo Malone reminds us all of the
power of innovation,
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00:15:18,940 --> 00:15:21,213
resilience, and true generosity.
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00:15:21,593 --> 00:15:25,371
And that wraps up another conversation
from beyond the grave.
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00:15:25,531 --> 00:15:29,367
Thanks for joining us on The Headstones
and Microphones Podcast.
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00:15:29,456 --> 00:15:33,287
Remember-legends may die, but their
stories never do.
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00:15:33,470 --> 00:15:37,210
Please help spread the word by sharing and
following the pod.