The Commercial Testing Gap

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As practitioners in building science, as weatherization folks, we're looking at everything as a system, the whole home is a system.
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And that fundamental knowledge translates really easily in other settings, like you know, this light commercial, because realistically, we're still dealing with forced air furnaces, we're dealing with a similar ductwork, we're dealing with conditioned, unconditioned zones and all these other things that it's the next step up in terms of the scale of these projects.
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Welcome to the podcast where we dive into the type of building performance of 1424.
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Get ready to enter the floor lab where we'll explore the world of building performance.
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Let's get started.
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All right.
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Well, welcome everybody.
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My name's Sam Myers.
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I'm with Retro Tech.
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With us, we have a couple of guests from CETA.
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We've got uh Dan and John here with us.
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And um, the topic we're gonna talk about is weatherization and commercial construction.
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And um we did a project, was it last year when we ran that lower door to July, uh yeah, July of last year.
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It was uh it was a firehouse and it has been having some issues for basically since it was built around year 2000.
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That's right.
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High humidity.
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Uh there's a bunk room where the firemen sleep.
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Uh they were staying sick.
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Uh so there was all kinds of problems.
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Other contractors have tried to come in in the past and make changes.
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Nothing really got any better.
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So um we ended up running some testing on it.
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But uh, Dan, I'll let you kind of give us the the rundown on how we kind of got involved with this and where we went with it.
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Yeah, thanks, Sam.
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So uh I'm Dan Maxmew.
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I work for CEDA in the Shog in Chicago.
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Um we are a community action agency, but uh, you know, this was one of those kind of unique things based on based on my experience and and my passion for diagnostics.
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You know, uh I was uh happy to take this project on.
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Sam gave us a kind of a call and asked if we were willing to go out there and help do some testing.
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But um realistically, the the the project ended up being an envelope issue.
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So um really the there was no lid on the building, so to speak, right?
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That that's in kind of the short version of uh what was going on there.
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But um lots of HVAC contractors had gone out there and try and deal with the symptoms, right?
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Dealing with the moisture load, kind of dealing with some of those, some of those issues and you know, changing equipment, putting in dehumidification, doing all this stuff, but really there was no no one ever really addressed the envelope and no one stopped to think about that.
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So uh, you know, they've been dealing with this problem for the last 20 years.
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Um, it gotten so bad at some point where wallpaper was peeling off the walls, and um, so they had all sorts of stories and and history living there that they um they were able to share with us.
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And uh so once we made contact with them, John and I went out and took a look.
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Uh, and then we we ended up uh doing kind of more of a forensic building audit for them to try and just determine the root cause of the issues and uh provide a report for them, uh, which included doing kind of a whole building uh or an envelope test on that project.
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Um and we can kind of get into the details on that, but uh you know, we ran a bunch of fans and couldn't get a number, basically, is the way that that ended up working out.
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So um it was a uh fun project for us to get involved in, and uh um it really kind of uh uh allowed us to leverage our skills as a as a the weatherization agency and having all the experience doing years of retrofit work, just kind of in a new market, which was uh really the fun part about it.
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Add to it, Jen.
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I think that um, you know, we're always look you know, we're always kind of connecting with partners and looking for these type of opportunities.
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Um, when we look at the environment that we work in as a community action agency, right?
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We're always trying to say, how do we remain sustainable outside of the federal funding that's available and through the partnerships of attending these conferences and we are we a retro tech equipment uh user uh at a very large scale.
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And so uh, you know, this kind of partnership made sense to you know come together and address some issues that were really facing, uh health disparities for the fire, um, for the firemen that were in the firehouse and um frankly a taxpayer issue because they kept throwing money at HVAC contractors who, as Dan pointed out, kept trying to add different equipment versus really understanding the science of what was happening.
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Yeah, so I remember this project originally came across my desk.
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Um there one of my industry colleagues was walking through and kind of got the gist of what was going on, but he called me and said, Do you know anybody who does commercial blower door in Chicago?
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I thought about it, and no one really came off the top of my head.
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I was like, well, I know who has a bunch of fans and they know uh they know building science, right?
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Uh they know what makes buildings go wrong.
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And I don't know if folks in the weatherization industry realize this, but commercial blower door is its own industry.
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It's it's massive.
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And the projects are at a different scale.
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Um, they they cost a lot more, right?
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So they pay a lot more.
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Um and really the only differences between going from residential to commercial is learning how to network multiple fans, multiple manometers together, and using the software to run everything and getting all of your data from one spot and generating that report.
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That's really the only learning curve there is going from residential to commercial.
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And so knowing that, um, knowing that they had everything else that they needed, I was like, there's no reason why these guys can't go in and do this because it's an existing building.
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The other thing about this is when we see a lot of large building tests done, it's usually to meet code, right?
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So they're doing new construction.
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They're not figuring out why something went wrong.
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They're just there to prevent something from going wrong.
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And that's a lot easier to do because you're there from the design phase all the way to uh when it's completed.
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But when things go wrong, now you have to go hunt down and figure it out.
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And weatherization agencies do this every day.
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That's nothing new.
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Uh the physics are still the same.
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You get stuff below dew point in the human environment, it condenses and it grows mold.
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Um, we know that.
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Uh so there's this interesting kind of gray area between residential and large commercial, and that's existing light commercial, right?
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So those are projects that are, you know, maybe a little bit bigger and a little more complex that your typical uh weatherization agency is used to, but it's not big enough where these big engineering firms want to take them on.
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So I think it's a really good opportunity for weatherization agencies to kind of just learn these few extra steps and apply the same knowledge that they already have to everything else.
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Um that's what exactly what you guys did here.
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Yeah, and I can talk a little bit more and kind of give you an idea of what the project looked like, right?
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The construction of the building, yes, it was built like a commercial building, right?
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The the firehouse actually has two offices that are divided by the uh the apparatus bay where all the equipment is, the garage space, whatever you want to call it.
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And the the residential side, it's it was basically just a CMU block wall.
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It's a masonry wall.
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Um they have steel roof truss for the whole uh architectural roof.
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It's not a flat roof, it's it's a it's an actual pitched roof on top of this building.
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Um so realistically, you know, if you were standing in the attic, it looked very similar to what we were used to seeing in residential homes, where you know, but but it's just steel truss, right?
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Everything is built with commercial materials versus residential materials we're used to, wood and and that sort of thing.
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But um so inside the living space, one of the other major differences that that we encountered is that you know, it's eight-foot ceiling, and then there was a suspended ceiling, uh, an ACT uh uh acoustical tile ceiling.
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Um and then above that there's a three-foot mechanical chase that ran throughout the whole space.
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And then above that, that above that mechanical chase, what what the builder had done is just put in FSK or foil that uh foil scrimcraft paper that was not taped or sealed in any kind of way.
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It was just fastened to the bottom, bottom of that roof truss, right?
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And falling down a lot.
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And falling down in many places, and then they just laid bad insulation on top.
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So essentially there was really no cap on the building, right?
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That that FSK was not providing any kind of moisture barrier or anything.
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Uh, it could have been if it was installed uh intentionally, but it was really just put in to hold the insulation in place.
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So um realistically, you know, that whole living space and and in that mechanical chase, kind of being a buffer zone almost with that ceiling uh system in there, that drop ceiling system in there, was basically just open to the attic.
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Um, and there's just no separation at all.
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Um, so that was, I mean, we went in there and we did the full audit, but really it took us five seconds to realize what was going on, right?
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Um the condition of that uh FSK was falling down, some of the bats were falling down, all of the duct wrap, uh the duct insulation wrap that was running through the space that you kind of would see in a commercial setting, you know, um, was also saturated due to all the condensation and everything.
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So um, you know, there's just kind of these things just built on top of each other one after the other.
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Um and the you know, the thing is that this topic has come up quite a few times as we've as we've been in different sessions, but kind of connecting the dots between HVAC and envelope work, right, and making sure that you know those go hand in hand.
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Well, on the commercial side, I would almost say that there's more of a divide between those things than than there even is on the residential side.
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So these are commercial HVAC contractors that are coming in used to looking at complex systems and they're really focused in on solving the problem that they've been given to solve, not necessarily looking at other problems.
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And I think that's one of the skills that as practitioners and building science, as you know, weatherization folks, we're we're looking at everything as a system, the whole home as a system, right?
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And that fundamental knowledge translates really easily in other settings, like you know, this light commercial, because realistically, we're still dealing with forced air furnaces, uh, you know, we're dealing with uh similar ductwork, we're dealing with conditioned, unconditioned zones and all these other things that, you know, it's it's just kind of a it's the next step up in terms of the scale of these projects, really.
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I mean, it's it's not really all that different than what we're dealing with on a regular basis.
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So um, you know, Sam Sam came out and helped us run a run a test.
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Uh we threw up uh six fans um and couldn't get a number at all, right?
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Which is no surprise because um the the footprint uh of the space is uh you know, of the living space is right around 5,400 square feet.
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Um so it's a pretty big space, most of it all open to each other.
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Um, you know, it's got all the regular stuff living room, kitchen, bunk room, you know, bathrooms, uh a gym, you know, some some uh other accessory rooms, but um in that space we couldn't get a number.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Well, we could in one direction.
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Oh, that's right, yeah, yeah.
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Depressurize.
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So remember, like most a lot of this, maybe about half of the ceiling was ceiling tile, right?
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And that was the biggest problem.
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Yeah, the rest was drywall.
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Yeah, the rest was drywall.
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But it's the ceiling tile was like the uh the effective air barrier that we could test.
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Uh so there is a little bit of a difference in how you interpret leakage when you test commercial buildings versus residential.
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What we're used to in weatherization is ACH 50, right?
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Where you need the volume of the structure to calculate that.
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In commercial, what we look at is these total surface area.
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So we want the CFM per square foot of envelope area.
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So instead of using the volume, we use the total surface area because air leaks through surfaces, not volumes.
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So it's a more accurate way to interpret that leakage.
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So in commercial, ACH isn't a thing.
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It's not used because when you have buildings of different sizes, ACH doesn't really put them all on a level playing field.
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Um, so that's what we had to go by.
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And just to give you a point of reference, maybe um one standard that's been used for quite some time, the the Army Corps of Engineers has their airtightness standard.
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And it's okay.
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It's not super tight, but 0.25 CFM per square foot of envelope area is what's allowed to leak for buildings of of that standard.
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Um this one was what?
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Oh, I I've I I think that we were like five or six.
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Well, I think it was like so like so like 0.25 would be like a pretty good building, but I think this was like one point something.
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Yeah.
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So it was pretty pretty intense.
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And the other thing, too, when in commercial, what we want to do is uh what most of the standards require us to do is test in both directions.
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So you want to depressurize and then flip fans around and then also pressurize and collect that data too, because the building's gonna leak uh a little bit different in both directions.
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Well, when we've we kind of knew this was gonna happen, but we we went for it anyway.
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And so we flipped the fans around and uh no, I mean those we we lifted up some ceiling tiles, like, okay, this FSK that they put up, let's see, let's see if it holds up, and it did not.
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We so and we even uh we even lifted ceiling tiles after opening ceiling tiles up in the ceiling.
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So uh it just kind of that that much that much air was moving through that you know it just wasn't feasible.
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Um yeah, it's it was an interesting project.
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So after we after we did all the testing, provided a report, we actually gave they asked for some recommendations on you know how to address the issue.
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And you know, obviously we're not an engineering firm, right?
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So we had to be careful about the way that we did that.
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And we gave them some suggestions, they vetted that, um, and they use that recommendation in in their scope of work when they bid this job out.
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So they actually put the job out to bid.
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Finding a contractor in this space was a whole nother fiasco for them.
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That was uh quite an interesting thing because you can imagine that you know it's very niche for the for the home performance contractors to be working on retrofit jobs, right?
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And that's uh most of the one most of the contractors that do it are at this conference, right?
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And on the commercial side, I think there's absolutely nobody that does this on the retrofit side.
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Um, so you know, we talked about how agencies can kind of uh you know move into a new market space and kind of generate some revenue that way and leverage the skills you have to grow, but the contractors also have that same opportunity here.
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Um, so we ended up getting brought on as the QAQC uh consultant as the work was being done and working with the procured contractor to kind of verify that the air barrier was being installed correctly and that sort of thing.
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But uh we ended up also being the trainer and the and the you know the specifier of the materials and all of the other things just because you know the we we had to teach that contractor who was used to doing commercial work how to do this kind of air barrier install work.
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So and there are air barrier contractors out there that specialize in this, but again, this this project no one wanted to touch because in that mechanical chase were all the electrical was running, all the sprinkler lines were already in place, all the ductwork is was in place, and everything was in the way.
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And it, you know, it had to be all dropped down, and we had to find a way to bridge over the top of existing uh partition wall top plates and stuff so that we could actually get the detail to uh make sure that we were getting a consistent air barrier across the ceiling and not just compartmentalizing the rooms room to room.
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So it I mean it was a it was a unique challenge, but again, these are all skills that I think that many of us in the industry already have.
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It's just applying them in a different way.
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Yeah.
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I think some of the the precursor, like we talked about like when we first walked in, I think they had some like they had some digital humidists.
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That's right, it was to read like 77% humidity.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, in the in the living quarters, right, for the for the firefighters.
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Specifically where they slept.
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And this was um this was in the winter.
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Yeah.
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This wasn't even in the summer when it was reading humidity that high, right?
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So when Dan had prefaced, like the wallpaper was coming off the walls.
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And um, the other really uh expense and health issue that was created is that they had to um replace all of the ductwork.
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One, they had to replace it because they had to do a whole new load calc once we actually created the right envelope area for the load calc, but um, there was uh issues with potential um uh mold and stuff in the ductwork.
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Like the when we were pulling some ceiling tiles, um the insulation was literally like pocket-dripping water just coming down and like it was it was a really bad health situation.
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And once again, being in this space of weatherization, right, we're used to having that acumen of understanding when we see something like that and and the health issues that it can cause.
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So while this turned into an unrestricted revenue generation opportunity for us as an agency, our building science and our knowledge as a WAP implementer really took that above and beyond to addressing health disparities for people.
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And uh one thing I forgot to mention at the beginning is especially if you're listening to this after the recording, uh, this is in front of a live audience.
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But we also have Zay Walter here with us from VPA who has a microphone.
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So if any of you have questions, which I'm sure, I'm sure you probably will as we get going with this, um, feel free to raise your hand and Zabe will bring the mic over to you.
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That way we can kind of capture um what you want to ask and provide an answer to you.
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Um let me try to think about where I was gonna go after that.
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So um yeah, so one of the problems, so the main problem that was causing this was right the bunk room, right?
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Because you know, the firemen were getting sick.
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It was definitely playing a role in how in their lives and how they feel and how they could do their jobs.
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But uh, who here lives in a in a humid environment deals with a lot of humidity uh in their market?
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Okay, so say the homeowner has uh a house that's dealing with high humidity.
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What do they usually do?
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They turn the air conditioning way down, right?
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Uh, because when you have high humidity, I mean you gotta you gotta drop that temperature to actually make it feel livable, right?
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So that's exactly what they did in here.
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I think what the thermostat was set on what?
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It's like 66 or something.
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In the winter.
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And so what happens when you do that?
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What happens to the structure when you do that?
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Things get below dew point.
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Yep.
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And if they were already below dew point, now they're way below dew point, and then it just rains harder.
00:18:56.400 --> 00:19:01.119
And so as you could, as you walked around in the building and looked, I mean, you could see specific stains.
00:19:01.200 --> 00:19:07.839
I mean, you could you could see where the uh the sprinkler pipes were running just from where it was dripping above.
00:19:08.000 --> 00:19:10.000
So it was pretty pretty rough.
00:19:10.240 --> 00:19:22.400
And the other thing too is when you have especially an HVAC contractor come in that doesn't know the house as a system, that doesn't know the stuff we know on weatherization, what do they usually do in that kind of situation?
00:19:23.119 --> 00:19:24.319
Throw more equipment at it.
00:19:25.279 --> 00:19:33.440
Yeah, so they already had two massive systems that were twinned together, and then down the road they put another two tons uh to serve just the bunk room.
00:19:33.519 --> 00:19:35.440
So they could get it down to 66.
00:19:35.599 --> 00:19:37.920
And so uh, which yeah, doesn't work.
00:19:38.240 --> 00:19:44.559
And they uh in addition to that, they had ducted dehumidification that they added on top of those oversized systems.
00:19:44.640 --> 00:19:49.279
So they were, you know, they were they were just fighting fighting the outdoors, basically.
00:19:49.440 --> 00:19:56.559
They were trying to trying to get rid of latent load from outside, uh, you know, but and obviously it was not working for them very well.
00:19:57.920 --> 00:19:59.119
So we have a question.
00:19:59.599 --> 00:20:02.559
Did you find it helpful working working with the fire department?
00:20:02.720 --> 00:20:07.359
I mean, fire department and weatherization, or fire and weatherization are so similar.
00:20:07.599 --> 00:20:08.640
Passive air.
00:20:08.960 --> 00:20:12.000
Uh I'm actually surprised a lot of the firemen weren't able to figure out.
00:20:12.160 --> 00:20:16.720
They use blower doors to desmoke houses, same technology.
00:20:16.960 --> 00:20:19.839
Um that go, working with the fire department.
00:20:20.160 --> 00:20:20.720
Great question.
00:20:20.880 --> 00:20:37.440
So uh when we first did our site walk after making initial contact and and making an appointment to go out there and just kind of taking a look around, before we proposed uh you know doing a more intensive audit, we uh we had a conversation with the fireman, and the second we started talking about stack effect, they lit up.
00:20:37.519 --> 00:20:38.079
Yeah, right.
00:20:38.240 --> 00:20:51.279
So in particular, um the we we met with the with the chief and the deputy chief, and the deputy chief uh um said that he's got uh uh the the chief kind of picks on him for being you know in in the weeds on the technical side.
00:20:51.359 --> 00:20:54.000
So like we hit it off right away, uh the two of us.
00:20:54.160 --> 00:20:57.920
But he started we started talking about stack effect, and he looked over at the chief and he's like, see?
00:20:58.079 --> 00:21:04.079
See the chief rolled his eyes and uh um so it was kind of funny.
00:21:04.240 --> 00:21:05.920
So uh I mean it's it's a great point.
00:21:06.000 --> 00:21:07.599
I mean, that we're dealing with a lot of the same things.
00:21:07.680 --> 00:21:11.920
We're trying to manage the same thing when we're talking about air movement or or air sealing, right?
00:21:12.000 --> 00:21:14.559
The fire service is looking at that stuff on a constant basis.
00:21:14.720 --> 00:21:17.440
You know, obviously they're looking at it for different reasons, right?
00:21:17.519 --> 00:21:21.680
We're we're focused on energy, they're focused on you know, stop and fire from moving.
00:21:21.759 --> 00:21:23.119
But I mean the principles are the same.
00:21:23.200 --> 00:21:33.440
I mean, uh the same it just like we were saying on the weatherization side, you know, working in a small home versus air sealing in a small home on the retrofit side versus air sealing in this kind of commercial setting.
00:21:33.599 --> 00:21:35.440
It's virtually air sealing is air sealing.
00:21:35.519 --> 00:21:40.480
I mean, you're doing the same thing, you're trying to solve for the same problem, it's just you're solving for it in a different place.
00:21:40.960 --> 00:21:44.240
So, yeah, that was it, it really worked to our benefit, to be honest.
00:21:44.400 --> 00:21:44.880
Yeah.
00:21:47.359 --> 00:21:51.519
I think that uh his nickname uh the deputy chief's nickname was Sheldon.
00:21:52.400 --> 00:21:53.279
That was perfect.
00:21:56.160 --> 00:21:59.599
And so I think that that brought up another thing that's important.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:05.119
Think about when testing uh specific commercial buildings is that this is an active fire department.
00:22:05.200 --> 00:22:05.519
That's right.
00:22:05.680 --> 00:22:05.839
Right.
00:22:05.920 --> 00:22:07.839
So we had to plan for that in our tests.
00:22:08.000 --> 00:22:10.640
So there were certain doors that we had to leave accessible.
00:22:10.720 --> 00:22:10.799
Right.
00:22:10.960 --> 00:22:16.799
And the way that the building was laid out, there was, you know, all the fire trucks where they parked were just like kind of right in the center.
00:22:16.960 --> 00:22:22.079
And then one side are the are the offices, and then the other side is this living quarters where we were testing.
00:22:22.160 --> 00:22:25.279
And so that was really the only side of the building that we were concerned with.
00:22:25.759 --> 00:22:35.519
So we had to make sure in our test plan that we leave a pathway so that if a fire alarm goes off and they have to go out, then we have to stay out of the way while still running a six-man blower door test.
00:22:35.839 --> 00:22:39.279
And um, and I think uh were we using theatrical fog?
00:22:39.519 --> 00:22:42.079
We we set the fire alarm off at the fire department.
00:22:42.319 --> 00:22:42.640
Yeah.
00:22:42.799 --> 00:22:43.440
Yeah.
00:22:44.319 --> 00:22:45.279
So that that happened.
00:22:45.359 --> 00:22:45.920
There's a video of that.
00:22:46.240 --> 00:22:47.200
Trials and tribulations.
00:22:47.440 --> 00:22:47.759
Yeah.
00:22:47.920 --> 00:22:50.559
So it was part of the job.
00:22:50.880 --> 00:23:09.920
But um, yeah, so when you're when you're working with multiple fans uh and manometers and networking them together, it really helps to not only go to the site first and walk it, but get plans of the building so you can use those to draw out, okay, what doors am I gonna use to put fans in?
00:23:10.079 --> 00:23:11.519
How many am I gonna put there?
00:23:11.759 --> 00:23:16.079
If this is a tall building, am I gonna need more up top uh that access the roof?
00:23:16.319 --> 00:23:19.039
Luckily, this is just a one-story building, so it was pretty straightforward.
00:23:19.200 --> 00:23:24.240
We just knew it was gonna be crazy leaky, so we just kind of guessed about how many fans that we need.
00:23:24.400 --> 00:23:38.240
But there's actually a calculator you can download from the Retrotech website, it's number of fans calculator, and you can put in the dimensions of the building, what air tightness that you need, or what air tightness that you expect, and it'll tell you what how many fans you need based on what model that you have.
00:23:38.400 --> 00:23:40.240
But um, but that's exactly what Dan did.
00:23:40.319 --> 00:23:45.519
He got plans of that building, and it's like, all right, we're gonna put two here, two here, leave this door open here, but two here.
00:23:45.680 --> 00:23:51.839
So we kind of had them on three sides of the building and still was able to leave a pathway so they could get in and out if they needed to.
00:23:52.000 --> 00:23:55.680
I think the alarm might have gone off once, somewhere where they had to leave and roll out.
00:23:55.920 --> 00:23:59.440
But um, but yeah, and that's that might be true for other buildings too.
00:23:59.519 --> 00:24:06.240
So I've tested government buildings where there was one in New York where it was a million square feet of heated floor area.
00:24:06.319 --> 00:24:15.359
It took up a whole block in New York City, and it we could only be there on Saturday and Sunday, so we only had two days to figure it out because they opened back up on Monday.
00:24:15.440 --> 00:24:20.000
Uh so we were working up until maybe two, three in the morning uh to try to figure out what was going on with it.
00:24:20.079 --> 00:24:24.160
So when you get into commercial, like planning those out uh is important.
00:24:24.319 --> 00:24:25.279
So yeah, safe.
00:24:25.599 --> 00:24:25.759
Yeah.
00:24:25.839 --> 00:24:34.240
So speaking of that, what kind of other you know commercial projects do you see opportunities for folks like us to do um and make some more money with?
00:24:34.640 --> 00:24:36.960
Yeah, that's that's a good question.
00:24:37.200 --> 00:24:44.079
Um, I think restaurants are a big one because what do they usually have?
00:24:44.880 --> 00:24:45.680
Flow hoods.
00:24:46.000 --> 00:24:47.759
A big exhaust fan, right?
00:24:48.000 --> 00:24:50.000
Uh where does that air come from?
00:24:52.240 --> 00:24:52.480
Yeah.
00:24:52.960 --> 00:24:53.279
Exactly.
00:24:53.519 --> 00:24:54.000
Who knows?
00:24:54.559 --> 00:25:00.799
Yeah, if they don't have a if they don't have an MUA or a makeup air, um, then it's just getting pulled in through the building.
00:25:00.880 --> 00:25:04.799
And they're usually just depressurizing the crap out of those buildings.
00:25:04.960 --> 00:25:05.039
Yep.
00:25:05.200 --> 00:25:07.839
And have you ever been in a restaurant and it's just like the windows are fucked up?
00:25:08.640 --> 00:25:10.480
Like, yeah, so we see a lot of that.
00:25:10.640 --> 00:25:22.160
And it's easy because with our tools, especially if you have a high resolution manometer and like one of our probes that you can use that you can shut under a door, you can see how depressurized the building gets when it's under normal operation.
00:25:22.480 --> 00:25:31.599
And you guys have blower doors, and so you can actually set one of those up and set it to zero and read what the flow is on channel B, and that's how much uh makeup air they need.
00:25:31.759 --> 00:25:35.920
So you can use your blower doors kind of like a powered flow hood to see how much they need.
00:25:36.000 --> 00:25:46.880
And so I've got well, at least one HVAC contractor that I've trained on how to do that, and he's eventually got the account for like all the pizza huts in eastern North Carolina, uh, just because he was able to figure that out.
00:25:47.039 --> 00:25:49.440
But I mean, weatherization people, we know this stuff.
00:25:49.680 --> 00:25:51.759
Yeah and um and those are the jobs that pay.
00:25:52.000 --> 00:25:52.240
Yep.
00:25:52.400 --> 00:25:54.480
Um I had another one too that was really weird.
00:25:54.720 --> 00:26:10.160
Um it was so I live in eastern North Carolina, tobacco is a big industry there, and uh the company that uh buys it from the farmers, they process it, and then before it goes to get you know processed into whatever it's gonna become, uh has to get fumigated.
00:26:10.240 --> 00:26:18.000
Uh, USDA has a certain standard that it has to get fumigated, and I don't know how they measure it to a certain degree before it goes out and they test it.
00:26:18.079 --> 00:26:23.519
And so they put them in these big buildings, they fumit their company comes and fumigates it, and then they come and check it.
00:26:23.680 --> 00:26:25.519
Well, they kept failing their test.
00:26:25.920 --> 00:26:29.359
And they're like, okay, um it's one of two things.
00:26:29.519 --> 00:26:36.319
Either our building is too leaky, or the contractor that's coming to fumigate isn't sealing up the building well enough.
00:26:36.480 --> 00:26:43.039
And they kind of thought it might have been that, because if it fails, then they have to pay that contractor to come back and do it again.
00:26:43.279 --> 00:26:48.720
So I went and tested three of the buildings, and the one that kept failing was actually the tightest.
00:26:48.960 --> 00:26:50.240
Because I didn't have anything to go by.
00:26:50.480 --> 00:26:53.200
USDA doesn't have any standard for tobacco fumigation chambers.
00:26:53.359 --> 00:27:00.880
I didn't know what I was really looking for, but I at least could compare the three that were there, and the one that they were having problems with was actually the best.
00:27:01.200 --> 00:27:06.319
So that kind of proved that it was their contractor's fault for not sealing up the buildings well enough.
00:27:06.559 --> 00:27:08.799
So yeah, you can use blower doors for that.
00:27:08.960 --> 00:27:11.599
So there's there's different opportunities out there for sure.
00:27:11.920 --> 00:27:20.559
Uh I think the other thing that we realized is that uh so this builder has built several firehouses in the western suburbs in the Chicagoland area.
00:27:20.720 --> 00:27:26.160
And uh so the the deputy chief was already telling us he's like, Oh yeah, I got a uh a chief buddy over in this suburb.
00:27:26.240 --> 00:27:29.599
And you know, they've been having similar issues, so they're waiting to see how it shakes out with us.
00:27:29.680 --> 00:27:33.200
But I think that we're gonna connect you guys with them and you guys go take a look at their project.
00:27:33.279 --> 00:27:38.559
And so I mean, uh I guess a benefit for us is we could just follow this builder around, right?
00:27:38.720 --> 00:27:41.359
I mean, uh and just kind of continue to work there.
00:27:41.519 --> 00:27:45.279
But I think that you know, something that uh just knock on the door, like how you guys doing?
00:27:45.359 --> 00:27:45.599
Yeah, yeah.
00:27:46.000 --> 00:27:46.640
How am I doing?
00:27:46.880 --> 00:28:03.119
Yeah, we were over at your buddy's place, and uh, you know, so it's like a bit of its word-of-out business and um you know, something that I'll pass the mic to John, but you know, he's he's been really you know innovative in the way that he's thinking about things and and trying to come up with ways that we can leverage this to actually do more of this work.
00:28:03.279 --> 00:28:11.279
And yeah, I I think that you know sometimes you stumble upon opportunity, but then how do you continue to make it sustainable or capitalize on it?
00:28:11.359 --> 00:28:16.640
And so uh this kind of came about last year, but I think we didn't get a submission in in time.
00:28:16.799 --> 00:28:18.880
I was like, hey, we should tell this story, right?
00:28:18.960 --> 00:28:22.400
And I think that it has a broader benefit than just our organization.
00:28:22.559 --> 00:28:30.319
Um, you know, we're part of a network that's 1,100 organizations that do this work outside of the market rate contractors.
00:28:30.480 --> 00:28:34.240
And um, there's just like an inherent opportunity based on our knowledge.
00:28:34.319 --> 00:28:38.160
And so we're gonna continue to try and tell this story in other spaces, right?
00:28:38.240 --> 00:28:45.200
We're asking the the uh the fire chief, like, hey, what what conferences do you guys attend when you talk about your firehouses and these opportunities?
00:28:45.279 --> 00:28:49.039
And like, Dan, we gotta build another presentation, gotta get a hold of Sam.
00:28:49.119 --> 00:28:55.440
And, you know, so uh, you know, the the you know, ABB is a good place for us to, you know, try and socialize the work that we're doing, right?
00:28:55.519 --> 00:28:57.359
That audience is automatically gonna get it.
00:28:57.440 --> 00:29:01.680
That could shoot us in a foot because we might create competition in the that middle market space, right?
00:29:01.839 --> 00:29:10.640
But when we talk about those opportunities, is uh Sam and Dan kind of alluded to earlier, a lot of these companies that do this work currently, they're they're bigger companies, right?
00:29:10.720 --> 00:29:14.799
They're not taking on that middle market opportunity, the Pizza Huts, if you will, right?
00:29:14.880 --> 00:29:17.039
Or or a 6,000 square foot firehouse.
00:29:17.119 --> 00:29:21.839
And so um, you know, Dan is certainly on our team as we lead to push this forward.
00:29:21.920 --> 00:29:25.759
The technical guy, I'm more the more the business guy looking at what is it going to cost?
00:29:25.839 --> 00:29:32.640
How can we, you know, how can we monetize it, and then how can we create more career paths for our for employee retention and good company culture, right?
00:29:32.799 --> 00:29:34.160
So that's kind of our our part.
00:29:34.319 --> 00:29:37.359
Um I know enough to be dangerous when it comes to the technical side of things.
00:29:37.440 --> 00:29:42.079
And so I just kind of follow these guys around very dangerous, yes, and pal around a little bit.
00:29:42.240 --> 00:29:51.119
So yeah, and I think it also uh there's a couple of questions, but the one thing I'll say is that if I don't know if everybody's familiar with ABBA, the the acronym.
00:29:51.680 --> 00:29:53.119
We're not talking about the band, obviously.
00:29:53.200 --> 00:29:55.039
Uh we're talking about the Air Barrier Association of America.
00:29:55.440 --> 00:29:56.079
Pronounced the same way.
00:29:56.240 --> 00:29:56.400
Yeah.
00:29:56.559 --> 00:30:05.759
And uh they say they they're the ones that kind of uh cater to the whole commercial industry on the air barrier side and all the air barrier specific installers, that sort of thing.
00:30:05.839 --> 00:30:07.039
And they've got the certifications.
00:30:07.119 --> 00:30:20.000
They even have a blower door certification, so they have the whole building airtightness uh uh technician certification, which uh I think that anybody who's run blower doors in weatherization can qualify for or and actually sit and challenge that exam successfully.
00:30:20.160 --> 00:30:27.039
I did it and I found it relatively uh comparable to the you know all the BPA trainings that we go through and all the blower doors we've run.
00:30:27.119 --> 00:30:34.480
I mean, our our industry, believe it or not, I don't know if many of many of you realize, but you're running more blower doors probably than anybody else in the country.
00:30:34.640 --> 00:30:38.640
Uh you know, so uh you know leverage that to your to your benefit for sure.
00:30:38.880 --> 00:30:39.359
Yeah.
00:30:39.680 --> 00:30:40.799
Yeah, question.
00:30:41.119 --> 00:30:41.680
Uh yeah.
00:30:41.759 --> 00:30:54.400
Uh can you go specifically into what the scope was, the repairs, uh, was it on heating systems, shell what material you used, how much insulation, uh redefine the thermal envelope, go into more of the scope.
00:30:54.720 --> 00:30:55.839
All right, back to me.
00:30:56.000 --> 00:30:56.319
Okay.
00:30:56.640 --> 00:31:04.480
Um yeah, so uh we we tried to, you know, obviously it evolved a little bit, and we were trying to do the simplest application, right?
00:31:04.640 --> 00:31:06.000
Put a lid on the building, basically.
00:31:06.079 --> 00:31:06.640
That was the goal.
00:31:06.720 --> 00:31:08.000
And how do we accomplish that?
00:31:08.160 --> 00:31:14.960
There's a lot of stuff in the way, a lot of mechanicals, a lot of traffic, you know, there's there's I beams, there's all sorts of structural materials.
00:31:15.119 --> 00:31:20.000
Um so it was a bit of a challenge, but what we settled on was just putting in a smart membrane, right?
00:31:20.079 --> 00:31:24.160
So we used actually Intel O X was the membrane of choice that we used.
00:31:24.240 --> 00:31:33.519
And that membrane got fastened on the bottom side of that of that roof truss, basically the ceiling joist all the way throughout the throughout the space.
00:31:33.599 --> 00:31:42.960
Um, and then it got it got sealed to the exterior block wall um with some fluid-applied uh uh membrane material as well.
00:31:43.119 --> 00:31:46.240
So that was the we used all ProClima products on this.
00:31:46.319 --> 00:31:53.599
Um so that was uh you know Viscon, Viscon fiber for the for making that uh um connection to the wall.
00:31:53.680 --> 00:32:04.960
Um and then what they did is they actually fastened on top of the membrane, they fastened some um some drywall track to help support that membrane.
00:32:05.039 --> 00:32:13.920
So they that perpendicular to the direction that those uh those ceiling joints were running, and then they blew uh uh cellulose over the top of that membrane.
00:32:14.160 --> 00:32:25.119
So essentially they, you know, we put a put a smart membrane up there that provided that air barrier, provided the moisture management as well, um, and then blew uh loose insulation on top.
00:32:28.160 --> 00:32:37.359
Yeah, so the the their uh uh the the ACT, the acoustical ceiling tile in that space was designed to be a rated assembly from the beginning.
00:32:37.519 --> 00:32:41.039
Um so that's kind of how they're meeting that requirement.
00:32:45.599 --> 00:32:47.920
That's another I have a funny story.
00:32:48.319 --> 00:32:49.680
Same similar situation.
00:32:49.839 --> 00:33:00.160
I did a fitness center, and they call me in to do an assessment on the fitness center, and they I get in and I see up on the ceiling tiles all these black stains everywhere, all around the place.
00:33:00.240 --> 00:33:04.960
And there's people exercising on exercise bikes, and I'm like, what are all these stains?
00:33:05.039 --> 00:33:06.319
I'm like, where's your HVAC unit?
00:33:06.400 --> 00:33:09.440
The main this person to the person walking around is like, I don't really know.
00:33:09.599 --> 00:33:10.799
I think it's up here somewhere.
00:33:10.960 --> 00:33:13.039
And I turn the corner and what do I find?
00:33:13.279 --> 00:33:15.039
A giant indoor pool.
00:33:16.160 --> 00:33:19.039
So and I'm like, okay, well, I'm I'm on to something now.
00:33:19.200 --> 00:33:20.480
And he's like, I think it's up there.
00:33:20.559 --> 00:33:28.160
So I get the ladder, I climb up, and there is a giant desert air unit, dehumidifier unit, and the front panel is off, and all the wires are coming out.
00:33:28.319 --> 00:33:31.599
And I said, Listen, you know, they brought me there to sell light bulbs.
00:33:31.680 --> 00:33:33.839
And I said, Listen, I can't tell you any light bulbs.
00:33:34.000 --> 00:33:36.960
I said, we need to address this health and safety condition first.
00:33:37.200 --> 00:33:37.359
Yeah.
00:33:37.599 --> 00:33:43.920
So, like, all right, well, when we're walking across the street to talk to the executive directors, like, we've had the roofer out and they fixed it.
00:33:44.079 --> 00:33:45.119
They fixed it, they fixed it.
00:33:45.200 --> 00:33:46.880
I'm like, oh, it's not a roofer problem.
00:33:47.359 --> 00:33:55.279
So I explained to this woman, I said, Listen, what's happening here is that this, you know, the water's coming off the pool and it's getting through.
00:33:55.359 --> 00:34:04.640
It is a very similar deck, like you said, with the you know, the FSK, with the with the bath sitting right on top, not taped, leaking up, falling down.
00:34:04.880 --> 00:34:11.679
I said, this wet, moist air is going up and hitting the metal roof and just raining in the attic at all times.
00:34:11.920 --> 00:34:13.599
And she's like, oh well, it's the roofer.
00:34:13.679 --> 00:34:14.480
We called the roofer.
00:34:14.559 --> 00:34:15.679
I said, it's not the roofer.
00:34:15.760 --> 00:34:27.519
So then I went home and I was very upset at this point because like, meanwhile, somebody like passed out, and the ambulance came, and it was like a major health and safety problem at this government-funded senior center of sorts.
00:34:27.920 --> 00:34:33.840
And they wound up, I sent her, I drew a little diagram with like little rain droplets and ever the whole nine years.
00:34:34.400 --> 00:34:37.519
And so I called the I sent it to her, didn't hear anything for a day or two.
00:34:37.599 --> 00:34:39.199
I was like, ma'am, I'm just following back up.
00:34:39.280 --> 00:34:46.079
I was in there doing an assessment, and I still want to find out what you know what you did or what I can do to help more to solve for this problem.
00:34:46.239 --> 00:34:48.800
She's like, Oh, well, I left a message for my roofer.
00:34:49.840 --> 00:34:50.159
Yeah.
00:34:51.119 --> 00:34:51.599
Yeah.
00:34:51.920 --> 00:34:59.679
So it's it's funny you mentioned that because I I left that detail out, but they actually had just spent a ton of money redoing the roof on this building.
00:34:59.840 --> 00:35:09.039
And part of what they did is they got they had uh powered attic fans that they had removed because you know, initially they they had put them in and then they redid the roof.
00:35:09.199 --> 00:35:12.159
The roofer told me you didn't need it, and they pulled them out and all this other, right?
00:35:12.239 --> 00:35:17.679
So um, you know, but those those attic fans were actually just drawing more of that condition air up into the attic, right?
00:35:17.760 --> 00:35:20.079
And um, so yeah, similar story.
00:35:20.159 --> 00:35:24.559
I mean, they tried literally everything outside of thinking to address the envelope, right?
00:35:24.639 --> 00:35:31.199
And uh there was like the simplest solution was right there in front of them, but you know, it you you just didn't call the right people, I guess.
00:35:31.280 --> 00:35:31.519
Yeah.
00:35:31.599 --> 00:35:38.880
So yeah, and I think that's where the the conversation, being able to communicate with the customer, and that's what we have in weatherization.
00:35:39.199 --> 00:35:39.360
Right.
00:35:39.440 --> 00:35:40.400
I I think that's a great point.
00:35:40.480 --> 00:35:49.920
And like, you know, like Dan's talking about when we think about these inherent skills, right, that uh we we possess that because we do this work on a daily basis, is we understand work sequencing, right?
00:35:50.000 --> 00:35:55.360
We understand that if we're gonna insulate, when what when should HVAC go first or second based on what you're gonna do?
00:35:55.519 --> 00:35:57.119
And that really played a big role.
00:35:57.199 --> 00:36:07.760
Um, Dan did in working with the contractors, because there was at one point they were gonna call the HVAC guy in to run this duck run, and Dan and I are there, and we're like, well, how are you, you can't do that yet?
00:36:07.840 --> 00:36:11.679
Because then how are we gonna get above the ductwork to install the Intelli Barrier?
00:36:11.920 --> 00:36:14.800
So it was like there's there's other little things, right?
00:36:14.960 --> 00:36:20.880
That you we ask we would assume that a commercial right construction company would would kind of be on top of.
00:36:21.039 --> 00:36:33.679
But when you look at things the way that we do in our in our space, right, that the detail because of how our decisions affect people, I think we have a different detailed perspective, not just about the science, but about the construction.
00:36:34.079 --> 00:36:35.360
And how to communicate.
00:36:35.599 --> 00:36:35.840
Right.
00:36:36.000 --> 00:36:36.559
Yeah.
00:36:36.800 --> 00:36:46.480
And and even communicating that to the contractor, the level of detail and what they're actually trying to accomplish, and trying to teach their crew on site how to address these issues.
00:36:46.639 --> 00:36:56.800
And you're trying to explain, this is we deal with this challenge all the time in weatherization, but you're trying to explain to somebody the physics of heat transfer and air movement and all these other things.
00:36:56.960 --> 00:37:02.559
But if they don't have a blower door, if they have no way to induce that, right, you're just talking to them in abstracts.
00:37:02.800 --> 00:37:06.719
Like these are, you know, oh yeah, sure, you know, they're nodding at you, oh yeah, okay, yeah, you got it.
00:37:06.800 --> 00:37:12.480
And then you come back and you run the you run the fan and you do your QA, Q, QC testing, and your smoke test.
00:37:12.719 --> 00:37:25.840
We literally smoke tested every square inch of that install just to verify that like there, you know, and then you come across pinholes, or you come across like tape that was fish mouth, and you come across all these different things that, you know, add up over time.
00:37:25.920 --> 00:37:35.440
Or you or they they sealed everything, but they, you know, they left this big plumbing wall, a hole in the plumbing wall, and that, you know, and they didn't seal a top plate well, and now there's just all this air rushing through, right?
00:37:35.599 --> 00:37:56.000
So the you know, going through and working with the contractor and trying to explain to them and uh taking them along with me while I was doing QAQC testing to really teach them and and document everything really well, uh, you know, it was uh very similar to this, to the to the you know, uh work in progress work you do on the weatherization side with crews and contractors.
00:37:56.079 --> 00:38:00.239
I mean, it's really was no different than any of that stuff that I've done in the past.
00:38:01.360 --> 00:38:11.039
Yeah, and one question that I get about this too is like, okay, well, if I'm doing residential, then I get BPI certified or I become like a ResNet Hurgis rater.
00:38:11.199 --> 00:38:12.480
Like, what about commercial?
00:38:12.639 --> 00:38:16.400
And like the truth is right now that it's still kind of the Wild West.
00:38:17.280 --> 00:38:25.599
Um we talked about ABBA earlier, and they're really the only third party that's offering like a legit certification.
00:38:25.760 --> 00:38:30.239
Uh, we have our own at RetroTech too, uh, because it's kind of a specialized thing.
00:38:30.320 --> 00:38:38.559
And so we do this three-day training twice a year where people come out to our headquarters and we really go through the nuts and bolts and everything, and you test the building before you leave.
00:38:38.719 --> 00:38:55.519
Uh, but other than that, there's you know, the whoever's gonna be hiring you to do this work, I mean, they don't even really have anything to reference to tell you what you need to have as far as a credential goes, because there's only one and it's still pretty much brand new, and only a handful of people out there have it.
00:38:55.920 --> 00:38:58.400
So um, it's just pretty much wide open out there.
00:38:58.559 --> 00:39:10.000
So if you have the ability to work the equipment, to network multiple fans to get the results that you need, and the building science knowledge that you already have, I mean, that is a really effective combination.
00:39:10.559 --> 00:39:12.800
And the manufacturer really helps out, right?
00:39:12.960 --> 00:39:21.039
You know, like I've had situations where I, you know, hey Sam, I've got all this, you know, this building that wants tested, how much, how where can I get these blower doors?
00:39:21.119 --> 00:39:24.639
Like, how can I get I have one, but I think I need 10.
00:39:24.800 --> 00:39:26.159
Can you tell me how many I need?
00:39:26.320 --> 00:39:28.000
How can I go about getting them?
00:39:28.239 --> 00:39:32.960
Like, can I borrow them or yeah, we uh we rent them.
00:39:33.119 --> 00:39:34.960
We have we have customers that do that all the time.
00:39:35.039 --> 00:39:38.480
I mean, sometimes there's 20, 30 fan tests.
00:39:38.719 --> 00:39:43.920
Um I think there was one, I think the largest one that's ever been done was I think it was in Germany.
00:39:44.000 --> 00:39:47.679
It was a warehouse plant that was like 60 fans or something.
00:39:48.400 --> 00:39:53.199
Um so I mean, yeah, as long as you have the equipment, the people to operate it, and the time to do it, you can do it.
00:39:53.519 --> 00:39:54.239
And good internet.
00:39:54.880 --> 00:39:57.599
Yeah, yeah, and some connectivity for sure.
00:39:58.800 --> 00:40:00.320
Yeah, that that's the thing too.
00:40:00.480 --> 00:40:06.960
I mean, we've we've got plenty of fans um and we're we're willing to rent them out if we need to or kind of uh help out.
00:40:07.119 --> 00:40:09.119
I mean, uh honestly, we've gotten John likes that.
00:40:09.360 --> 00:40:11.440
Yeah, we've gotten calls for that in the past.
00:40:11.599 --> 00:40:15.280
Uh, you know, just kind of cold calls about you know equipment and that sort of thing.
00:40:15.360 --> 00:40:18.719
But I think that you know, it kind of goes uh uh to build on your points, Dave.
00:40:18.800 --> 00:40:23.039
Uh you know, the our industry is very willing to collaborate and help each other out.
00:40:23.119 --> 00:40:28.960
And I think that's really one of the benefits, especially kind of stepping into like this, you know, this mid-market space, if you will.
00:40:29.119 --> 00:40:36.400
Um and that's one of the things that I really enjoy about it because you know, literally, Sam, uh, I think we actually got a cold call from this lead.
00:40:36.480 --> 00:40:37.840
I don't think Sam even called me about it.
00:40:37.920 --> 00:40:40.000
And then I called him, I was like, hey, we got this lead.
00:40:40.159 --> 00:40:40.800
Do you know anything about it?
00:40:40.880 --> 00:40:42.000
And he's like, Oh yeah, I sent that to you.
00:40:42.079 --> 00:40:43.840
I was like, oh well, thanks for the heads up, you know.
00:40:44.079 --> 00:40:45.920
Like, well, can you come help us with it?
00:40:46.000 --> 00:40:46.480
You know what I mean?
00:40:46.559 --> 00:40:47.679
And um and that sort of thing.
00:40:47.760 --> 00:40:56.719
And you know, one of the benefits I guess we have as an agency being that we we do multifamily work is we have dabbled with kind of larger building tests and running multiple fans and stuff.
00:40:56.800 --> 00:41:02.239
So I mean, I we may have had just kind of a bit of an advantage over uh somebody who hasn't done that before.
00:41:02.400 --> 00:41:12.639
But really, uh, if you can plug in some wires and uh and run a computer software, you can do a multifan test because that's I mean, the manufacturers really make it that easy now.
00:41:12.800 --> 00:41:22.960
Um, so uh just just making sure that you know you got some some resources to help you walk through the first one and you know, making sure that you you check all your equipment ahead of time.
00:41:23.119 --> 00:41:26.800
I mean, the planning of these tests really is is the key.
00:41:26.960 --> 00:41:33.599
Um that that that's kind of the bigger piece that you need to worry about is planning and just kind of coordination uh more than anything else.
00:41:34.400 --> 00:41:35.840
Yeah, I missed the first uh few minutes.
00:41:35.920 --> 00:41:45.920
I was late getting in, but uh could you go to and speak to the structure of how you got from uh weatherization at our level to that level of meeting 60 fans?
00:41:46.800 --> 00:41:55.039
And how big of a step is that uh for uh uh an Auditing Company and home performance company uses one fan all the time to go to two or three fans.
00:41:55.119 --> 00:42:03.119
And where I'm out in Delaware, we just got an email two weeks ago saying they want to start a commercial rebate program and they want us to come.
00:42:03.280 --> 00:42:10.639
Anybody who wants to come uh can get trained and they're willing to provide equipment and certifications, uh, but uh they don't even know what they want.
00:42:10.800 --> 00:42:12.800
They want us to bring this information to them.
00:42:12.960 --> 00:42:14.480
So how hard is that transition?
00:42:14.559 --> 00:42:17.440
And you said something about light commercial and commercial.
00:42:17.760 --> 00:42:28.000
I see that I I envision the light commercial being like doctors' offices and houses that have been uh changed over to offices from lawyers and doctors and accountants and all we have a lot of that.
00:42:28.159 --> 00:42:33.360
We also have uh data centers, which I was involved in one of them at one time, which is a total mess.
00:42:33.519 --> 00:42:35.119
But you don't finally hear that.
00:42:35.599 --> 00:42:40.559
Um could you uh kind of talk about that transition and how easy or hard that may be?
00:42:40.800 --> 00:42:41.280
Yeah, yeah.
00:42:41.360 --> 00:42:42.400
Go just on real quick.
00:42:42.719 --> 00:42:45.039
I'll let Sam take that, but I just wanted to mention quickly.
00:42:45.199 --> 00:42:50.559
So, you know, we did the first test on the firehouse, and again, this is around 6,000 square foot space.
00:42:50.719 --> 00:42:55.360
Um and we did the first test with six fans, didn't really get a result.
00:42:55.519 --> 00:42:58.320
Um, I mean, um we got some numbers, but nothing significant.
00:42:58.480 --> 00:43:02.880
Uh the last test I did was at the end of March, so they're still working on this project, believe it or not.
00:43:02.960 --> 00:43:05.119
That's how long it took for the contractor, you know, anyway.
00:43:05.199 --> 00:43:07.760
So that's another, I think that's another conversation we could have.
00:43:07.840 --> 00:43:13.119
But um by uh by that point, every all the air barrier had been installed.
00:43:13.199 --> 00:43:15.519
So this was kind of the last QAQC test.
00:43:15.599 --> 00:43:22.480
Um, and they got the uh I ran two fans only is what I needed to get that that test on.
00:43:22.639 --> 00:43:26.639
And I uh they were at 2400 CFM at 75 Pascal.
00:43:26.880 --> 00:43:35.840
So and that translated based on CFM per square foot about 1.25 or 0.125 CFM per square foot.
00:43:36.159 --> 00:43:38.800
So a really significant uh decrease.
00:43:38.960 --> 00:43:54.000
So to answer your question, I mean, a building that size, if if in decent condition or if the air barrier is in, if there's some complete air barrier in place, uh even although not perfect, you probably only need one or two fans, you know, maybe two or three fans really to run it.
00:43:54.079 --> 00:44:01.280
So I mean the scaling of what you need equipment wise isn't as significant as even 60 of them for like a A big commercial job.
00:44:02.800 --> 00:44:04.880
Yeah, so you're you're kind of on the right track.
00:44:05.039 --> 00:44:07.519
That's kind of how I um categorize it too.
00:44:07.599 --> 00:44:09.920
You've got residential, light commercial, and then commercial.
00:44:10.000 --> 00:44:17.119
And then when you get into full commercial, I mean, it can be a lot of fans or you're just sampling a tall building uh on several floors.
00:44:17.280 --> 00:44:19.119
I mean, that can take quite a while.
00:44:19.360 --> 00:44:28.559
But um, if you're working with an organization that wants to do a commercial program like that, I would really want to see what it is that they're trying to achieve.
00:44:28.800 --> 00:44:32.159
Um, because it's very similar to what we're doing here.
00:44:32.320 --> 00:44:39.519
Like if they're not doing blower door testing, they're just guessing at what they're trying to do, especially if we're talking about existing buildings.
00:44:39.760 --> 00:44:48.400
Um existing homes, you know, when we do enough of them, they're kind of predictable, but commercial, it could be all over the board.
00:44:48.719 --> 00:44:50.800
Um, you can't really predict what that's gonna be.
00:44:50.960 --> 00:44:52.960
I mean, there's so many more materials, layouts.
00:44:53.039 --> 00:44:54.559
I mean, they're usually custom done.
00:44:54.719 --> 00:44:56.960
I mean, it's uh it's a prototype every time.
00:44:57.119 --> 00:44:59.840
So there's really no telling what you're gonna come across.
00:45:00.079 --> 00:45:02.719
So yeah, we need to test them out.
00:45:03.039 --> 00:45:08.480
And there's not a whole lot of training opportunities um across the country right now that do it.
00:45:08.559 --> 00:45:10.000
Like I said, ABBA does theirs.
00:45:10.079 --> 00:45:14.159
They have a few uh pockets around the country where they do it on the West Coast and the East Coast.
00:45:14.239 --> 00:45:15.440
They do it in Chicago now too.
00:45:15.679 --> 00:45:16.159
They do, yeah.
00:45:16.320 --> 00:45:21.199
Um, and then we have ours that we do in Washington State at our headquarters a couple times a year.
00:45:21.360 --> 00:45:25.360
Um, but other than that, um I think ETEC does one too.
00:45:25.519 --> 00:45:33.760
Um, but other than those three, I mean, that's really the only ones that I know of that are actually teaching it correctly um on how to do it and get the results that you need.
00:45:33.920 --> 00:45:40.800
So I would go back to that organization and just really try to get a good clear picture of what it is that's what they're looking for and what resources that they're using.
00:45:40.960 --> 00:45:43.920
Um, because I mean you could probably help them out quite a bit.
00:45:44.239 --> 00:45:44.960
Thank you.
00:45:45.360 --> 00:45:53.599
The the one other thing I'll mention that I think is uh take there's a there's a builder knowledge gap, I think, on the mechanical side, right?
00:45:53.760 --> 00:46:08.639
So especially in existing buildings or even if it's a if it's a you know smaller commercial building but maybe newer construction, understanding the way the mechanical system is functioning in there and the different component pieces sometimes can be a little more complicated than what we're used to seeing in the single family side.
00:46:08.800 --> 00:46:18.960
Now, if if you've done some multifamily work in larger multifamily buildings, it's it's an easier transition because it's very comparable from that side of things on the maca on the HVAC side.
00:46:19.119 --> 00:46:29.519
Uh but you know that that also is probably maybe like the I'd say maybe one of the bigger skills gaps that's uh that that you need to fill in to kind of make the step.
00:46:32.000 --> 00:46:46.719
John, let us give me an idea of like if I'm just uh if I'm just an energy auditor, you know, and I'm kind of nervous and and I have my own, you know, I'm good at the one blower door, what is it gonna take for me to gain the confidence that I need to get to that next level?
00:46:47.039 --> 00:46:50.320
Yeah, I well, first of all, I think you're gonna you're gonna have to connect with somebody, right?
00:46:50.400 --> 00:46:55.360
You're gonna have to connect with somebody that ha has the knowledge to help train you to build that confidence.
00:46:55.519 --> 00:47:01.360
I think that's one thing that we have a good ecosystem with at our organization being being a little bit larger, right?
00:47:01.519 --> 00:47:03.760
We have our own dedicated training team.
00:47:03.920 --> 00:47:07.199
And so our staff can really grow into other our areas.
00:47:07.280 --> 00:47:14.880
I think the fact that we do multifamily, again, to Dan's point, we've taken our residential folks out with our multifamily people and kind of exposed them.
00:47:15.039 --> 00:47:24.000
And a matter of fact, I think three of our single family energy auditors came out on this project, you know, to to get that exposure and help set the fans up.
00:47:24.079 --> 00:47:32.800
So I think that it's really it's about it's about collaboration and and and and having the right resources to you know to be exposed to the opportunity and to the education.
00:47:36.480 --> 00:47:36.880
Sweet.
00:47:36.960 --> 00:47:37.599
Yeah.
00:47:38.880 --> 00:47:40.079
Any other questions?
00:47:42.719 --> 00:47:43.039
Comments?
00:47:44.639 --> 00:47:49.679
Yeah, I had a building once, you know, I'll tell another commercial story just for the sake of rounding this thing out.
00:47:49.760 --> 00:47:53.760
And you know, one of the good places I've made some good money is in safe rooms.
00:47:53.840 --> 00:48:13.119
I know Sam, you and I have talked about this, being able to get into uh, you know, a lot of these I was working for a DuPont and they a lot of these uh chemical plants have safe rooms where if everything melts down, you know, they the the folks working there need to be able to go into their office space and they use the one air change per hour.
00:48:13.280 --> 00:48:15.039
That's where we were kind of heading down.
00:48:15.280 --> 00:48:27.760
And you know, in commercial work, it's way more expensive, you know, the average cost of that test, same test, same amount of time, one lower door, testing, you know, just a couple hundred square foot of an office.
00:48:27.840 --> 00:48:34.960
Um, and I had to come back a couple times because you know, it wasn't making the grade, it didn't meet the standard that they had.
00:48:35.039 --> 00:48:40.800
And I was replacing a test that cost 10 times what I was charging, and I was charging a lot.
00:48:41.039 --> 00:48:46.400
So, you know, there's always that opportunity that you know there's there's it's hidden places everywhere.
00:48:46.719 --> 00:48:48.159
Sean, what do you got?
00:48:49.760 --> 00:48:51.840
Before you ask that, it's funny when you said safe rooms.
00:48:51.920 --> 00:48:55.519
I have a customer in Louisiana who who also does some testing for those.
00:48:55.679 --> 00:49:01.199
And uh actually the the manufacturer of the safe rooms uh for where they use down there is in Houston.
00:49:01.280 --> 00:49:10.400
And they called uh our customer and said, Hey, we want somebody that can come over to our headquarters and do some testing at our facility uh to do a tracer gas test.
00:49:10.639 --> 00:49:14.079
And he called me, he goes, Yeah, what do I do with like tracer gas?
00:49:14.159 --> 00:49:14.800
What do I do with that?
00:49:14.960 --> 00:49:20.320
So you call them back until it's not 1970 anymore, and that you have blower doors uh that you can do a much better job with.
00:49:20.480 --> 00:49:22.559
So, I mean, because that's exactly what they should be using.
00:49:22.880 --> 00:49:23.679
So yeah.
00:49:24.079 --> 00:49:38.719
Uh my question is, is uh is your upgrading uh commercial blower doors that you offer that are beyond setting up six blower doors, um using a trailer to back up something a little bigger as you grow your business.
00:49:38.880 --> 00:49:40.079
You guys are just starting, right?
00:49:40.320 --> 00:49:44.480
But I can see setting up 20 blower doors after a while is gonna get tiresome.
00:49:45.119 --> 00:49:49.280
Yeah, we we have a high output fan um that we manufacture.
00:49:49.440 --> 00:49:53.760
Uh it gives you so your regular fan will give you about 5,000 CFM.
00:49:53.920 --> 00:49:56.559
Uh these will give you about 2,000 more per fan.
00:49:56.639 --> 00:49:59.199
Um so that's less equipment that you would have to set up.
00:49:59.360 --> 00:50:01.039
So they run a little bit more.
00:50:01.119 --> 00:50:12.400
Um the ones that we have now, um, they're lighter, they're a DC motor, uh, there's a power supply that sits beside it, but you can get about 8,000 CFM um out of one of those at 50 Pascal.
00:50:12.480 --> 00:50:15.840
So that way you're not having to haul as many fans, but you'll still need more than one.
00:50:16.079 --> 00:50:23.519
There was a company, um, I think they might still be around, called InfoTech that used to make these big gas-powered trailer fans.
00:50:24.079 --> 00:50:30.000
Yeah, so Torrance Kramer is like the only person in the country that I know that actually has those.
00:50:30.159 --> 00:50:30.800
He had two.
00:50:30.880 --> 00:50:31.920
He just told me he got another one.
00:50:32.000 --> 00:50:33.199
I don't know where he got it from.
00:50:33.440 --> 00:50:38.480
But uh but I think I really do think he's probably the only person in the United States that has those.
00:50:38.559 --> 00:50:39.599
Uh, they're popular in Europe.
00:50:39.760 --> 00:50:41.920
They shipped a bunch of them over there a long time ago.
00:50:42.079 --> 00:50:44.880
But to my knowledge, I don't think they're being manufactured anymore.
00:50:45.039 --> 00:50:45.679
Yeah.
00:50:46.239 --> 00:50:48.800
Uh I think it also depends on the configuration of the building.
00:50:48.880 --> 00:50:52.320
So a lot of times, you know, like those would be good in a big open warehouse space.
00:50:52.400 --> 00:50:59.920
But anytime you've got a building that's divided up that might have, you know, some areas that bottleneck, you know, small hallways, doorways, that sort of thing.
00:51:00.079 --> 00:51:08.000
It can actually be a challenge if you're putting all the fans in one place because you won't get balanced pressures then throughout that whole test envelope.
00:51:08.079 --> 00:51:16.239
So sometimes you have to put fans in one spot and the other spot and kind of spread them out to help make sure that you get consistent pressures and throughout the building.
00:51:16.320 --> 00:51:24.719
So I mean, there are pros and cons to having one giant setup that can do everything, and then also having kind of uh, you know, being being a little more modular.
00:51:25.119 --> 00:51:28.719
So that would be a multi-point low door desk.
00:51:29.440 --> 00:51:33.760
Uh yeah, well, so a lot of the standards for commercial are are multi-point tests.
00:51:33.840 --> 00:51:41.679
So you're doing multi-point, but it you can still if you can you there are calculations you can do to determine what the bottleneck would be.
00:51:41.840 --> 00:51:52.159
Um and if you can open it up and actually you can still do it as a single zone test, um, as long as you know you can get enough airflow through there and get fans on both sides.
00:51:53.039 --> 00:51:58.000
Yeah, so that the term that we use uh that we want to achieve when we're running the test is pressure uniformity.
00:51:58.320 --> 00:51:58.480
Right?
00:51:58.559 --> 00:52:00.800
I mean that's that's true for residential too, right?
00:52:00.880 --> 00:52:06.000
We when before we run the blower door, we open up all the interior doors uh because they kind of behave like dampers.
00:52:06.079 --> 00:52:07.920
We don't want to shut off any part of the building.
00:52:08.079 --> 00:52:09.679
It's the exact same for commercial.
00:52:09.840 --> 00:52:12.000
So we're propping doors open for stairwells.
00:52:12.079 --> 00:52:23.840
So sometimes we might be um opening up elevator doors if it's multi-story, maybe setting the car on different floors uh to be able to achieve that, any way that we can get uh that pressure uniform all the way.
00:52:23.920 --> 00:52:29.599
And then sometimes if it's a tall building, we put them on the roof if there's a roof access just to kind of pull it from both sides.
00:52:29.760 --> 00:52:32.000
So and use the fans to move air.
00:52:32.320 --> 00:52:36.000
Yeah, using booster fans just to kind of help push it up a staircase, maybe or something like that.
00:52:36.079 --> 00:52:38.480
So, but that gets that's getting into like full-on commercial.
00:52:38.719 --> 00:52:42.239
If we're talking light commercial, you're probably not gonna be getting into that as much.
00:52:42.400 --> 00:52:46.079
So if you're gonna if this is something you want to pursue, I definitely recommend doing baby steps, right?
00:52:46.320 --> 00:52:47.599
Starting light commercial.
00:52:47.679 --> 00:52:49.519
Uh, you know, do two, three fans.
00:52:49.599 --> 00:52:51.360
You know, you can practice at your office.
00:52:51.440 --> 00:52:54.000
Um, you can you can use the software and try it out.
00:52:54.079 --> 00:52:56.159
And you don't need a huge space to do it, right?
00:52:56.239 --> 00:53:03.280
You can take multiple if you have multiple fans, then you can just choke them down to a smaller setting and just kind of force the test to need more.
00:53:03.360 --> 00:53:05.519
And that way you can network them together and practice.
00:53:05.840 --> 00:53:09.920
And it's always better to have a few more fans than you need.
00:53:10.159 --> 00:53:10.400
Yeah.
00:53:10.559 --> 00:53:10.639
Right.
00:53:10.960 --> 00:53:12.960
Rather than try and run a test and not have enough.
00:53:13.039 --> 00:53:18.079
Uh, because uh, you know, it's pretty hard to go back to the shop and regroup all the planning and everything that went into it.
00:53:18.239 --> 00:53:19.679
So um, yeah.
00:53:20.239 --> 00:53:22.000
So we've got five minutes left.
00:53:22.239 --> 00:53:28.159
Um, I just wanted to leave some time here if uh if you guys had any kind of closing remarks before we take any more questions.
00:53:28.320 --> 00:53:32.880
And um when our time's up at 232, we we'll hang around here for a sec, too, if you guys want to come up.
00:53:33.039 --> 00:53:33.840
So sure.
00:53:34.159 --> 00:53:35.039
John, you want to start?
00:53:35.280 --> 00:53:35.440
Sure.
00:53:35.519 --> 00:53:35.760
Yeah.
00:53:35.920 --> 00:53:39.440
I think that, you know, from the perspective of the opportunity, right?
00:53:39.519 --> 00:53:44.480
Um I think that partnership, collaboration, and education, like I said earlier, right?
00:53:44.559 --> 00:53:46.320
You have to build that social network.
00:53:46.480 --> 00:53:56.800
I think that it's a very uh very obvious that the relationships with the manufacturers of the equipment who provide that training on their equipment was key, specifically in this case.
00:53:56.960 --> 00:54:17.280
Um, you know, the fact that that we we really engage heavily with RetroTech um is is inherent to our success based on the products they provide us, but more really the the friendship and the professional like insights that they that they give us, because without without having a relationship with Sam, we wouldn't have had that opportunity, right?
00:54:17.440 --> 00:54:26.800
And then him spending his time to come out and give us kind of that that confidence and that security of like, hey, we have somebody to lean into from a partnership perspective.
00:54:26.880 --> 00:54:32.719
So I think it's all about education and partnerships when you're looking to try and you know push forward with something innovative or different.
00:54:34.639 --> 00:54:36.400
Yeah, and I think oh, go ahead, Zach.
00:54:36.880 --> 00:54:45.519
I was just gonna ask, are there any government policies or new codes or things that are coming down the pike that we should be aware of that's gonna promulgate a lot more of this work?
00:54:46.159 --> 00:54:47.199
You want to take out sure.
00:54:47.440 --> 00:54:52.079
You would it's it's very so and John, thanks for the kind words too.
00:54:53.920 --> 00:54:55.280
I didn't want to ignore that.
00:54:55.440 --> 00:54:58.639
Um it's it's kind of similar to how residential works.
00:54:58.800 --> 00:55:00.559
It's all all by state, right?
00:55:00.800 --> 00:55:05.519
So um Washington State right now, uh any commercial building that's being built right now has to be tested.
00:55:05.599 --> 00:55:05.760
Yeah.
00:55:05.920 --> 00:55:06.079
Right?
00:55:06.159 --> 00:55:08.880
They've they've been kind of the guinea pig uh in all of this.
00:55:09.039 --> 00:55:11.920
But in existing, no.
00:55:12.320 --> 00:55:13.360
Yeah, there's there's nothing.
00:55:13.840 --> 00:55:14.239
Federal.
00:55:14.400 --> 00:55:16.239
I know there's some federal stuff coming.
00:55:16.719 --> 00:55:17.760
There might be.
00:55:17.920 --> 00:55:19.119
Not not that I've heard of.
00:55:19.280 --> 00:55:20.639
You might know more about that than I do.
00:55:20.880 --> 00:55:21.519
I just heard it.
00:55:22.000 --> 00:55:22.159
Okay.
00:55:22.239 --> 00:55:23.119
Well, so yeah.
00:55:23.280 --> 00:55:24.559
No, no, I just heard it.
00:55:24.639 --> 00:55:25.280
Yeah.
00:55:27.679 --> 00:55:31.679
Uh um, but yeah, I mean, I I completely agree though, like with John's point.
00:55:31.760 --> 00:55:33.920
I mean, about the more that we network together.
00:55:34.079 --> 00:55:41.760
That's one of the most special things about the people at this conference and just in this industry, because we're all eager to share what we know uh and help out where we can.
00:55:41.920 --> 00:55:58.320
Um, the one test I was telling you about earlier, where it took like 30-something fans to test that uh building in New York, we uh they rented a bunch of fans from us, the customer did, and they got freighted out from our headquarters coming across country to New York, and they told us that it's in Pennsylvania, it'll be there tomorrow.
00:55:58.480 --> 00:56:02.320
Well, then we found out that no, the truck got stuck in a snowstorm in Wyoming.
00:56:02.480 --> 00:56:06.159
And there was like like 18 fans on that truck.
00:56:06.320 --> 00:56:14.880
And so I'm at a conference and I had to fly out, and we're on the phone with everybody that we know in New York that has blower doors, and they all showed up and dropped stuff off.
00:56:14.960 --> 00:56:15.840
And so that was awesome.
00:56:16.800 --> 00:56:19.039
So, I mean, like, what other industry can you do that with?
00:56:19.199 --> 00:56:23.679
Um, so that that was that was a good example of just how we all all work together to make stuff happen.
00:56:24.000 --> 00:56:26.639
So yeah, I don't think there's any codes.
00:56:26.800 --> 00:56:45.360
The only thing that I'm aware of that major cities are doing now is they're taking the um existing multifamily buildings and they're looking for them to model their energy and then be able to upgrade their energy and give them a plan.
00:56:45.519 --> 00:56:49.199
I don't know if that includes any blower doors specifically.
00:56:50.400 --> 00:56:52.159
Yeah, that's uh that's a good point.
00:56:52.239 --> 00:56:56.639
I mean, uh that's kind of that benchmarking process that's going on uh a lot of places.
00:56:56.800 --> 00:56:58.000
Chicago has that as well.
00:56:58.159 --> 00:57:11.280
But um, you know, and and I'm almost embarrassed to say this, uh, but on the, you know, I think that we all know it on the weatherization side and multifamily weatherization on large buildings in particular, we're really not doing any blower door testing, right?
00:57:11.360 --> 00:57:16.000
We're just doing the air sealing work and kind of, you know, it's more of a compartmentalization approach, right?
00:57:16.159 --> 00:57:23.599
Where we're trying to seal each unit from each unit and um and then allow the building to kind of continue to do what it's doing in all of the common areas.
00:57:23.760 --> 00:57:32.800
But um, on the small multifamily though, this this is this could be a bigger opportunity to kind of continue uh finding ways to, or even just practice your skills, right?
00:57:32.880 --> 00:57:38.480
And and get some of that credibility in this space before moving into the commercial uh running multiple blowdoors.
00:57:38.719 --> 00:57:55.920
I think that one of the just kind of as far as you know, final comments and uh closing thoughts here, you know, one of the things that stood out to me really is um as folks that have a lot of experience in this industry, we can't be afraid to leverage that in new ways.
00:57:56.079 --> 00:58:02.000
And we can't get kind of stuck and entrenched in in just looking at it from the one perspective.
00:58:02.159 --> 00:58:06.880
So I think that that was really eye-opening for me that like, hey, these opportunities exist and they're very attainable.
00:58:07.039 --> 00:58:22.559
And quite honestly, is a little intimidating to take on a project like that and doing it for hire and kind of being in a new new uh new market, but at the same time, you very quickly realize that the you you can be just as confident doing that work as you are doing weatherization work.
00:58:22.639 --> 00:58:44.639
So I think really the the the challenge I leave with everybody in the room and listening to the podcast is uh you know, try and get out there and make sure that people know the work that we're doing and know the skills that we all have in the industry and that we are credible and capable of doing this testing, especially in the commercial space, because um I, you know, I no one else is doing it.
00:58:44.800 --> 00:58:45.519
No one else is doing it.
00:58:45.840 --> 00:58:46.559
Everybody else knows it.
00:58:46.719 --> 00:58:50.639
And we uh and you everybody in this room has the expertise to do it, I'm pretty sure.
00:58:50.719 --> 00:58:53.440
So that's that's really the thing I want to leave everybody with.
00:58:55.039 --> 00:58:55.280
Cool.
00:58:55.679 --> 00:58:58.000
We hit it right at uh 2.30 on the dot.
00:58:58.320 --> 00:59:06.079
So um if you came in late, this is uh a live episode of the Flow Lab, which is uh a podcast hosted by RetroTech.
00:59:06.159 --> 00:59:12.639
We appreciate you guys joining us, and um, we'll hang out here for a few minutes uh if you wanted to come up, chat, and ask any questions.
00:59:12.800 --> 00:59:13.519
Um thanks again.
00:59:13.679 --> 00:59:14.079
Appreciate it.
00:59:14.239 --> 00:59:14.800
Thanks everybody.
00:59:15.039 --> 00:59:16.079
Thank you, everybody.