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The embedding in the curriculum, as I said earlier, is so important because it sends
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a strong message to students about what matters, but it also recognises the immense pressure
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that students are under. So for us, if we believe in experiential learning as a pedagogy,
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and it is incredibly powerful and it has so many positive impacts on students, then we
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have to commit to putting that in the programme.
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Hello, and welcome back to the Experience Effect, the University of Leeds podcast dedicated
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to showcasing the amazing work in experiential learning taking place in higher education
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at Leeds and beyond. We're your hosts, Anna and Imogen, and in today's episode, we're
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talking to Dr Karen Burland, Academic Lead for Student Opportunities and Futures, about
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embedding experiential learning into the curriculum. In this discussion, we reflect
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on how Karen was inspired by her own research to be innovative about bringing experiential
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pedagogies into the curriculum, how this has inspired collaboration and meaningful
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learning experiences for staff and students, and her hopes for the future of experiential
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learning within the curriculum.
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Thank you for coming on the podcast today, Karen.
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Thanks for having me.
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So to start us off, could you tell us a little bit about how you got involved with experiential
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learning and the ways that this has shaped your approach to learning?
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Thank you so much for having me. It's great to be here. Just for a bit of context, I should
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say that I'm leading this work as part of my role as the Academic Lead for Student Opportunities
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and Futures. And as part of that role, I've been leading this work with Greg Miller, who's
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one of our colleagues at the university, on how we embed experiential learning at scale,
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but importantly, how we do that in the curriculum. So the way I got into experiential learning
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was as a result of my research, actually. So my research is all about musicians and
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how musicians make their lives with music. And as part of that research, where I spoke
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to lots of musicians at different stages of their careers, including as they were making
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that transition from university to making decisions about what they would do next and
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then tracing them as they made that journey, you know, through the first couple of years
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after graduation. And in those conversations, I realised that students were not necessarily
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aware of the range of skills that they had as musicians. You know, you think about, you
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know, the ways in which musicians have to work with other musicians. They have to listen
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really carefully and adjust what they're doing. They have to practice really hard. They have
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to identify problems in, you know, when they're making mistakes, why did that go wrong? And
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how do I make it better? They have to organise their time because musicians are always very
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busy people. You know, all of those things that musicians just take for granted, because
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that's what they've been doing since they were so high. So often they weren't able to
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identify the skills that they had. They weren't able to necessarily give examples of those
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when they were applying for jobs and things like that. They weren't necessarily sure of
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the range of options that were open to them as musicians or how to navigate the different
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pathways that you could take into work, whether that was as a professional musician or as
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a freelancer building a portfolio career or all of these different kinds of things.
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They also didn't seem to have thought very much about whether the life of a musician
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was in line with what they wanted their lives to be, you know, so not necessarily thinking
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through well, if they wanted to avoid working in the evenings and weekends, you know, maybe
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being a professional musician wasn't the best kind of course for them, because most of the
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work as a musician is in the evenings and at weekends and things like that. So how did
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their career choices kind of fit with their life desires and with their values and what
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they wanted their lives to look like? So really, I was keen to kind of explore these issues
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with students. So I created a module and it was originally intended for music students,
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but then it expanded to be for the Faculty of Arts as a faculty module. And this was
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designed to help students bring their extracurricular experiences into the curriculum for academic
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credit. So a lot of students, but music students in particular, use a lot of, they're involved
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in loads of societies, you know, as different bands, different kind of musical groups. They
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would often have roles within those groups, like conductor or musical director, or even
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kind of comms manager and all of those kind of things, but would see that as something
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that's quite separate. Yet, if you're trying to build a career as a musician, those skills
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are absolutely vital. So I wanted to find a way for those experiences to kind of be
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brought into the curriculum to help then support students to reflect on, well, what am I learning
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from this experience? How does it complement what I'm learning in my lectures? But also
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at the same time to do that work of thinking, well, what matters to me? What kind of person
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do I want to be in the future? And how do I achieve that in an effective way, building
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on all of my experiences? And importantly, how can I use my time at university to get
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the most of my experience? How can I prepare myself for what's ahead? So I created this
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module and in creating this module, we have to make sure that we do risk, whenever you
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do experiential learning, particularly when it involves some kind of outside work, because
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it's for credit, we have to make sure students are safe while they're doing that activity.
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So I encountered Greg Miller in trying to work out the risk processes for this module.
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And so Greg very kindly said, well, yes, we can support this, but you'll have to do this
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very heavy duty risk assessment process, which is the one they used for work placement year.
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But it was incredibly detailed. You know, this is for a year of work experience, not
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for 40 hours, which is what we were talking about. I said, this is a bit much, Greg. He
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was like, no, but that's what we've got to do. And so me and Greg had some very interesting
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discussions where I was saying, come on, Greg, let's be a bit more reasonable about this.
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This is a barrier for me doing something really innovative in the curriculum.
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And so that was how Greg and I actually ended up coming to work together, because I was
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a bit annoying and kept insisting that there must be a more efficient way to bring experiential
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learning into the curriculum. So we found a really great result in the end. And I think
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that's really that was the start of the work. And Greg recognising that there were barriers
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to this work being done effectively. And if I, as someone who's quite tenacious and
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stubborn was having to really fight to do it, other people who weren't quite so annoying
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as me probably wouldn't have persisted. And so that opportunity would have just disappeared.
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So it was really that that's how my interest and how my kind of passion for this work really
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came about.
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So, Karen, what are some of the ways that you have implemented experiential learning?
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And how has this been received? Are there any projects that you're particularly excited
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about?
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Yeah. So I think it's important to say that experiential learning isn't new in and of
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itself at the University of Leeds. And it wasn't new when we started this work. I mean,
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we started this work about two or three years ago now. So it wasn't new. We had loads going
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on. So work placement years were really kind of prevalent, study abroad, short opportunities
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over summer periods, for example. You know, we had lots going on. And then also we had
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lots of people who, like me, had created opportunities within modules. There was lots of pockets
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of good practice going on. So we weren't starting from nowhere. But a lot of this work was going
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on in the extracurricular space or co-curricular space. It wasn't very often happening in the
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curriculum. And as we know, increasingly, students are quite time poor and they're having
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to make choices between working for income just to survive while they're at university
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and prioritising their studies. And for those students who are having to work quite a lot
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of hours to supplement their time or because they have caring responsibilities or they're
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commuter students and have long commutes and things like that, they would say, well, actually,
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we're going to prioritise the degree. You know, whatever is in our degree is where our
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emphasis should go. And I think there's a lot going on in that kind of subliminal messaging
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of what we put in the degree programme is what students will think matters. And so if
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we're leaving some activities to the kind of extracurricular space, then actually that
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might make students think, well, maybe that's not so important. That's not my priority because
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it's not in my degree. So we were really trying to shift so that we could build on all of
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the expertise that happened in the university to bring it into curriculum. So we weren't
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working from nothing. But what we have done and the most joyful bit of this job has been
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finding all the people who work in this space, you know, who were already doing it, who were
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already annoying Greggs or other equivalents to try and get stuff done despite a lot of
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barriers. So what we've been trying to do is uncover those people. We've been trying
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to celebrate those people. We've been trying to fund people to be brave and try new things.
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So that's kind of what we've been doing is trying to encourage new activity. We've been
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trying to make it as easy as possible for people to get started with experiential learning.
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And I think what we've achieved is a shift in recognition that experiential learning
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is a pedagogy, it's an approach to teaching, which can enhance the experience for students,
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but also for staff. I'm a great believer that teaching via experiential learning is a really
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great thing as a member of staff as well. So we're changing the narrative. We're saying
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we can move beyond the traditional stand in a lecture theatre. We're not replacing that.
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I think that's also very important. There's a place for that. In order to do experiential
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learning, we need the knowledge in the first place in order to understand it. So what's
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exciting is just the range of ways in which people are creative and the way that technology
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is beginning to come into that space. So we're sitting in Helix recording this podcast at
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the moment, which is a phenomenal space. But we've got people using virtual reality as
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a form of pedagogy of kind of inducting people into different work environments, for example,
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in dentistry or in food science, or extended reality and things like that. So we've got
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a lot of innovation happening. And we're right on the cusp of digital innovation and expansion
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that makes this a really exciting time for us to be doing experiential learning.
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And I guess you've already spoke on this a little bit. But I think one of the things
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that comes up in dialogues about experiential learning is that it involves really complex
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collaboration between students, academics, external partners and professional services.
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And so I wanted to ask you the different ways that you break down those barriers and the
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ways that you support those different groups to ensure that they all experience the benefits
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of experiential learning.
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Yeah, I mean, I think this is, this has been at the heart of the project from the start.
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It's not irrelevant that Greg and I are working on this together. So Greg's a professional
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service colleague who works in the space of student opportunity and how we support that
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from a kind of infrastructure kind of way. And I'm coming at it from an academic perspective.
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And that has been at the ethos of the work throughout. And increasingly, as the work's
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developed and we've started to recognise the barriers and challenges from an educator point
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of view, we've brought in the student voice to that work. We've got a fantastic team at
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the university called the Student Partnerships Team. And they've supported us to do some
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work with students in what it feels like to do experiential learning and how we can make
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that feel comfortable and safe for them as well. So I think the spirit of all of the
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work that we've been doing is it has to be collaborative. And so even when we've got,
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we've had some areas of priority around reflection and reflective practice and authentic assessment,
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for example. And key to that work has been it has to be a partnership between academic
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and professional service, because we can't do this work unless we do it together. So
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for academics, we've been always keen to emphasise the subject specialism rules, you know, and
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we're not in the space where we're saying you need to change what you are teaching.
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What we're saying is you're the experts, but are there techniques and tools that you
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could be using to bring your discipline to life in different ways that might engage students
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and stakeholders and yourself for that matter, in slightly different ways or in ways that
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deepen understanding of knowledge, I think is what experiential learning offers. So academics
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are the experts, like they know their disciplines. I'm not going to sit here and say this is
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how you teach dentistry, that would be very dangerous. But what it is, is they understand
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their students, they understand their discipline knowledge. What I've been trying to do is
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then say, well, look, if you work with some careers consultants on the issues that they
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know students are struggling with, that might help you bring some slightly different perspectives
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into this. If you work with people who from the work placements team, who might then be
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able to put you in touch with partners in those industries that can then give their
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perspectives on how that knowledge plays out in practice, then suddenly we start to
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get this really rich dialogue. But you can't bring in those external partners if you haven't
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got the teams that work with those partners and then how we do that in a really meaningful
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way for everybody. Because I think the other risk of experiential learning is that we don't
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think carefully enough or because we're all busy, that's the problem. We don't think carefully
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enough about how we manage those relationships and nurture them so that they sustain beyond
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the classroom and actually can lead to some really interesting research collaborations
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that go beyond what happens in the classroom to a meaningful collaboration for research
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active staff, for industry partners, maybe for future PhD students, all of those kind
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of collaborations which are really important. So, yeah, and then I think there's other issues,
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all the hidden kind of people that are involved, like timetabling. If you're going to do experiential
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learning, then you need particular kinds of learning spaces to be able to do that in
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a productive way. There's no good sitting in raked seating to try and collaborate in
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a team. So, you know, there's all of this kind of, it takes a whole university to make
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this happen in a kind of really meaningful way. And then we've got COIL. COIL is Collaborative
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Online International Learning, which is where you might partner with an overseas institution
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and their students on a particular project. That relies on digital infrastructure and
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things. So, this is a huge project. And so what we've been trying to do is understand
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the experience of all of these different stakeholders. So, for academics, we've been putting together
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loads of resources about how do you get started? Which teams do you need to talk to in order
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to sort out the risk assessment processes? Who is it that can put you in touch with external
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partners? What are the different techniques and tools? And who's done this? What have
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they tried? What are the things that have gone horribly wrong? I've been really wanting
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to push the whole, we need to learn from failure and we need to admit when things don't work
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and learn from that experiential learning in action. So, sharing all of those stories.
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So, we've got loads of resources for staff now. For students, we've done some student
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partnership work where we've tried to understand what feels comfortable or less comfortable
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when embarking on experiential learning. And so they've helped us put together a really
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great set of resources about how do you set up the idea of a module for students even
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before they take it? How do you induct them into that way of working before they begin?
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How do you build team ethos within a module? How do you help students understand how they
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work with each other? How can you support that experience over time? Because we all
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know working in teams can be great, but can be frustrating sometimes. And so how do we
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navigate, help students to navigate that territory? So, some really helpful resources that we've
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got from working with students and having student interns work with us, like you two,
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is an absolute pleasure. And we learn so much from that kind of added insight. And then
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at the same time, we've got QA process, quality assurance processes. So, how do we know what's
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going on? How do we ensure that there's kind of rigour in the kinds of activities that
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are going to be implemented? So, it's a whole multi-level approach that we've taken. But
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because collaboration has been at the heart of it, we've been trying to get at it from
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all the different perspectives so that there's something for everybody who is coming into
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this space to work.
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Sometimes academics and staff struggle to see how experiential learning might benefit
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them. So, how do you support staff who might not feel confident about integrating practical
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real-world elements into teaching?
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Yeah, and I think this is a really important question. And I said earlier that I find a
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lot of joy in teaching in this way. I'm quite comfortable with improvising on the spot and
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with going with the flow and kind of working with what's in front of me in that moment
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in time. But that doesn't play, that doesn't work for everybody. And I think we shouldn't
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try and make people feel like they've got to be something they are not. There are simply
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some people who don't feel comfortable not knowing what's going to happen and being more
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vulnerable. I see this, when I do this work, I am more vulnerable because I have to be
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myself in that space. I'm not being the lecturer, Karen. I'm being Karen and I'm saying if
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I don't know something and I'm all right with that. But that's not comfortable for everybody
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and I'm more experienced than someone who might be new to teaching and things.
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So, we have to recognise that this won't be for everybody. And I don't think we're
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saying as a university that everybody should do experiential learning. But what we've
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been trying to do is find little ways in for people that if they're just curious and want
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to test it, you know, it doesn't have to be a whole module. You know, at the beginning
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of the podcast, I talked about the module that I created, which was a whole scaffolded
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approach. But actually, it might just be a task that you do within a session. So, it
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might just be a debate that you set up in class where the students are applying knowledge
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to a particular discussion and they're told whether they have to be one side or another.
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And then they maybe reflect on that process afterwards and how comfortable or otherwise
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they felt and what they learned as a result of that. Or it might be that they get a project
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brief, which they just discuss some work through over a couple of seminars, for example. And
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they think, well, how would we address this problem if we were working in this kind of
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context? So, it doesn't have to be, you know, a work placement. It doesn't have to be a
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whole assessment. It could just be part of an activity. So, I think it's about firstly,
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reducing those kind of barriers that I spoke about earlier and making it as easy as possible
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for people not to have to jump through hoops to do what they want to do, to have models
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of how they might do it, to have really kind of careful guidance on, if you want to do
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this, here are the steps you follow and it will be easy. Here are the teams, here are
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the people. And we've been automating things and doing as much as we can to make it easy.
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But then it's also about just examples of templates of activities to try in a class,
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for example, or different ways of thinking about something, things to avoid so that it
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doesn't go wrong in your context. You know, those kinds of issues can be kind of quite
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helpful. We've got a really lovely community of practice as well, that's been growing
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over the time of this project. There's over 150 people in this community, which is just
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a very organic thing. And there's loads of people there that people can just ask. The
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best way to understand what to do is to find a friend and to talk about it or find someone
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who might be interested in doing something with you in a module so that you can try it
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out together. And there's safety in numbers, right? You know, you can test things out together
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and you've got two of you there to respond in the moment if things start to go a bit
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unpredicted. So I think, you know, that kind of helps. I think just being upfront and honest
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about it, it does involve work. You know, this kind of teaching, especially if there
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are partners involved, there's a bit of extra work involved, but actually being honest about
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that, but then talking about the joys that come with it and the benefits and the benefits
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for you as an educator, the benefits for your students are really kind of helpful to kind
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of articulate. And I think it's about building momentum and excitement and talking to students,
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you know, what would they benefit? You know, if all modules were experiential learning
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modules, it would be really quite a lot for students to deal with. I don't think that's
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what we're advocating, but to have an experience within a programme seems like a realistic
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thing for us to be aspiring to. So that means we don't all have to do it, but there are
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people out there who are really kind of creative and innovative and want to try something new
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and are brave enough to do that. I feel that they've got the kind of personal tools to
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do it. It really isn't for everybody, but for those who want to do it, it's incredibly
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joyful and incredibly meaningful. And the impact on students is really evident when
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you read their reflective reports or when you talk to them to kind of anecdotally or
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just in a conversation, the things they say about what they've gained from the experience
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is amazing. And that's why we're here. You know, as educators, we want the best for our
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students and we want to help them grow. So our job has been really, how do we make this
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as easy as possible? How do we make it feel as enticing as possible? Whilst also being
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realistic about what's involved, I think. But recognising that it's not for everybody
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and we certainly don't want people to feel pressured to do it if it makes them feel
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uncomfortable. That's that's good for nobody. Absolutely. I think you raise a really important
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point that experiential learning is very holistic. It's not a one size fits all.
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Exactly. Yeah, yeah. That's a good point. So another thing I wanted to chat about today
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is the process of embedding. And I guess what does embedding look like to you? Is there a way
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that you would embed within a certain module and how might you scale that across different
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programmes throughout the university? Yeah, I mean, this has been the crux of
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the project. This is where we're heading. And the embedding in the curriculum,
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as I said earlier, is so important because it sends a strong message to students about what
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matters. But it also recognises the immense pressure that students are under in terms of
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their time and their priorities and how they're being pulled in different directions. And so
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for us, if we believe in experiential learning as a pedagogy, and it is incredibly
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powerful and it has so many positive impacts on students, then we have to commit to putting that
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in the programme. So this is where the idea of the embedding came from. The at scale bit
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is tricky, I would say, because music is quite a small discipline. But if you think about the
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business school, for example, there are hundreds of people in a lecture there. So how on earth do
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we kind of make that happen? So I think it comes back to that point that you just made, Imogen,
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about there isn't a one size fits all. And we would certainly never at the university be in a
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position where we say, right, you have to do it like this. What we're trying to do is to show a
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kind of palette of opportunity. You know, here are the different ways in which you might do this. So
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it's about recognising the ways that students learn by just applying their knowledge in different
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kinds of ways. So as I said earlier, you know, it might just be different tools and techniques
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that you bring into a lecture or to a seminar, which complements a lecture. So seminars tend to
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be a bit smaller, they're a bit more easy to kind of manage. It could be a piece of homework that
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you set students off to do in between lectures, for example, go away and do this, upload a report
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here or be willing to share your findings. You know, there's whole different ways. I mean, I
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think we would love to get to a place where all programmes had some form of experiential learning
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in them. The other thing that we've been trying this year is the global industry programme.
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So this is where we've given all taught postgraduates the opportunity to do a two week
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online virtual work experience programme where they get put into teams and they work on different
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kinds of projects in interdisciplinary teams. So they're not just with people on their programme,
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but they're with people across the university. And that has been our attempt to say, well,
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can we do this at scale? You know, we've got projects going that are 200, we've got 200
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students on them working on different kinds of project. And that's been our attempt to say,
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well, actually, does it have to involve all of us going out and finding partners?
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You know, you think about Leeds as a city and the number of students we had, if everybody was
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doing this with partners in the city, they'd all be quite busy and probably wouldn't be able to
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support us all in the way that we'd like. So these virtual programmes are kind of quite interesting
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for us to explore. And we know from the data that we've got from that programme already that 90%
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of students have said they recognise the value of that opportunity and will be using it as an
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example of how they can work in different contexts in future job applications. So we know it's having
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a strong impact on the students, which is really helpful for us as we start to think, well, could
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we start using these in different ways in programmes? So that's an extra co-curricular
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offer. But how do we start bringing those kinds of things into modules on, you know, in business,
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you know, perhaps with specific kind of focus on HR, for example, or in food science with a
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particular focus on factory contexts or something like that. You know, there's kind of all these
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ways in which how do we bring these virtual experiences into a much more bespoke setting?
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So that's been part of the testing of that. So, yeah, I think the embedding bit is how we do that
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in ways that feel authentic to the discipline, that feel relevant as well. There's no point just
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doing something because it's ticking a box. It has to be meaningfully thought through and it has to
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feel right for the member of staff. You know, working in partnership with students is such a
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powerful thing to do. So if people are thinking about doing it in the curriculum, why not consult
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with students about where that would make sense from their point of view, where the content of
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a module might lend itself really well and they could see how that would work. Do it collaboratively,
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get them to help. Working with students is such an eye-opening experience for us as academics
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that we can learn a lot, I think, by doing it collaboratively.
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And in a similar context, how do you measure whether embedding and scaling have been successful
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and how do you balance between quality and scaling in experiential learning projects?
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Yeah, so this is a good question and this is where we're kind of heading in the next phase
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of the project is more of the understanding, the evaluation. I'd say where we've been so far has
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been how do we make it happen? And now we need to start evaluating the impact that it's having in
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the classroom. So from my own perspective, I've learned a lot about the impact of it through
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reading the student portfolios. So on my module, they submit an e-portfolio and a reflective
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report. And so those are really great exemplars of just how much a student has acquired through
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taking that module and seeing the ways that they talk about a kind of enhanced understanding of
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their values, of how that will determine the type of organisation that they want to work for or the
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type of work pattern that they want, of the realisation that they've come to, of all the
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skills that they've actually got and how they've managed difficult situations. That is amazing,
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you know, that you can see that played out in front of you in an assessment. And the same when
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you see students working on group projects and you see the final products of that and you see
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how confidently and how proud they are of the work that they've been doing. You know, that is
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evidence of growth, but it's very anecdotal. We have statistics of programmes like the Global
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Industry Programme that I just mentioned, where we can we ask students to sort of say how confident
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they feel in their skills at the beginning and how that progresses after or during and after.
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And you can see the growth there as well in terms of awareness of skills and confidence in their
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next steps and all of that. So we do have those kind of metrics. The research literature, as well
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as our own insights, suggests that where it's done well and where students feel supported,
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experiential learning is incredibly impactful on students, both while they're at university,
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but then also as they progress to their next steps. And how do you find integrating pedagogy
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with practice? Are there any specific examples of the ways that you equip staff, students and
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other partners to undertake experiential learning? I mean, I think pedagogy leads as a
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Russell Group university. So that means it's research intensive, which means that research
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really matters. And what we've got in this fantastic institution is lots of people who are
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absolutely at the top of their game in terms of their discipline knowledge and who respond really
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well to evidence that things are worth their time and effort. I think everybody is very time poor,
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that students and staff and our partners around the world or very locally in Leeds. And so the
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pedagogy side of things is helpful for making a case for why we should do this kind of research.
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But then also it helps us understand how we can do that in ways that feel authentic in particular
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disciplines. You know, there are some disciplines where experiential learning is written about
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a lot and there are others where it feels more of a stretch. So I think that there are some
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really kind of solid pieces of work that can just help academics understand why they would do it,
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can inspire, can give them ideas about what to do and how to do it. But certainly the research
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at a research intensive institution is everything. So that's absolutely vital, I think, to the way
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in which we kind of start to kind of roll this programme out more widely.
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And moving on to the lessons and future directions, what has been the biggest challenge
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in the beginning to implement experiential learning at Leeds? And what did you learn from it?
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Yeah, I mean, I think in my own little tiny piece of the world, it felt enormous to wrangle Greg
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into a position where I could come up with a more streamlined risk assessment process.
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And that was the start of it all, I suppose, really. I think one of the
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things is that we're a huge institution and sort of recognising that if we were going to do anything
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effective, we had to do it collaboratively. It comes back to that question that everybody's
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got a view. Everybody is time poor. And people don't necessarily feel like they've got headspace
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to innovate and be creative. And because we're so huge, and there are so many priorities,
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and there are so many things that we need to pay attention to, that being heard or being deemed
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sort of impactful enough for people to give us attention has been a real struggle because,
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you know, we've been doing this at a time of a big curriculum redefined curriculum transformation
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programme, where people have been busy thinking about lots and lots of different things at a time
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of economic crisis, you know, immediately following the pandemic, you know, at a time when
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student mental health is really poor. And so there's a lot of student support requirements.
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And so it's just a really complex time. And so feeling like we want to ask more of people
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has been a real challenge. And so I think that's been why we've been doing it kind of slowly and
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carefully and with collaboration at the heart, because we've been wanting to do it in a way that
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is sensitive to all of those challenges that everybody's facing. And we've certainly realised
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quite early on that we're not saying everybody ought to do this. This is not a kind of mandate
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for everybody to do it. But it is, we're trying to inspire people and enthuse people about the
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joys and benefits of experiential learning for everyone involved in the classroom. I mean,
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I would love for us to get to a place where we could confidently say to all prospective students,
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come to Leeds, and you will have, you know, experiential learning within your programme
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as a kind of core driver for your experience, so that you can leave university feeling equipped
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and prepared and full of enthusiasm for why you've studied this degree and how it will help
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you in the future. That would be the dream, really. I would love for staff to feel enthusiastic, to feel
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like it was worth their time, you know, feeling inspired to do the work and to want to bring
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their subject to life in just ways that resonate with today's students. Well, thank you so much for
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being on today's episode, Sharon, and we've thoroughly enjoyed chatting to you. Thank you.
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Thank you. Thanks for listening to our conversation with Dr Karen Burland,
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Academic Lead for Student Opportunities and Futures at Leeds, about the fascinating ways
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that experiential learning is becoming an essential pillar of the University of Leeds curriculum.
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Thanks and see you next time.
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The embedding in the curriculum, as I said earlier, is so important because it sends
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a strong message to students about what matters, but it also recognises the immense pressure
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that students are under. So for us, if we believe in experiential learning as a pedagogy,
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and it is incredibly powerful and it has so many positive impacts on students, then we
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have to commit to putting that in the programme.
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Hello, and welcome back to the Experience Effect, the University of Leeds podcast dedicated
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to showcasing the amazing work in experiential learning taking place in higher education
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at Leeds and beyond. We're your hosts, Anna and Imogen, and in today's episode, we're
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talking to Dr Karen Burland, Academic Lead for Student Opportunities and Futures, about
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embedding experiential learning into the curriculum. In this discussion, we reflect
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on how Karen was inspired by her own research to be innovative about bringing experiential
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pedagogies into the curriculum, how this has inspired collaboration and meaningful
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learning experiences for staff and students, and her hopes for the future of experiential
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learning within the curriculum.
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Thank you for coming on the podcast today, Karen.
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Thanks for having me.
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So to start us off, could you tell us a little bit about how you got involved with experiential
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learning and the ways that this has shaped your approach to learning?
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Thank you so much for having me. It's great to be here. Just for a bit of context, I should
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say that I'm leading this work as part of my role as the Academic Lead for Student Opportunities
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and Futures. And as part of that role, I've been leading this work with Greg Miller, who's
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one of our colleagues at the university, on how we embed experiential learning at scale,
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but importantly, how we do that in the curriculum. So the way I got into experiential learning
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was as a result of my research, actually. So my research is all about musicians and
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how musicians make their lives with music. And as part of that research, where I spoke
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to lots of musicians at different stages of their careers, including as they were making
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that transition from university to making decisions about what they would do next and
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then tracing them as they made that journey, you know, through the first couple of years
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after graduation. And in those conversations, I realised that students were not necessarily
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aware of the range of skills that they had as musicians. You know, you think about, you
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know, the ways in which musicians have to work with other musicians. They have to listen
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really carefully and adjust what they're doing. They have to practice really hard. They have
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to identify problems in, you know, when they're making mistakes, why did that go wrong? And
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how do I make it better? They have to organise their time because musicians are always very
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busy people. You know, all of those things that musicians just take for granted, because
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that's what they've been doing since they were so high. So often they weren't able to
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identify the skills that they had. They weren't able to necessarily give examples of those
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when they were applying for jobs and things like that. They weren't necessarily sure of
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the range of options that were open to them as musicians or how to navigate the different
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pathways that you could take into work, whether that was as a professional musician or as
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a freelancer building a portfolio career or all of these different kinds of things.
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They also didn't seem to have thought very much about whether the life of a musician
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was in line with what they wanted their lives to be, you know, so not necessarily thinking
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through well, if they wanted to avoid working in the evenings and weekends, you know, maybe
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being a professional musician wasn't the best kind of course for them, because most of the
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work as a musician is in the evenings and at weekends and things like that. So how did
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their career choices kind of fit with their life desires and with their values and what
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they wanted their lives to look like? So really, I was keen to kind of explore these issues
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with students. So I created a module and it was originally intended for music students,
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but then it expanded to be for the Faculty of Arts as a faculty module. And this was
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designed to help students bring their extracurricular experiences into the curriculum for academic
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credit. So a lot of students, but music students in particular, use a lot of, they're involved
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in loads of societies, you know, as different bands, different kind of musical groups. They
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would often have roles within those groups, like conductor or musical director, or even
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kind of comms manager and all of those kind of things, but would see that as something
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that's quite separate. Yet, if you're trying to build a career as a musician, those skills
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are absolutely vital. So I wanted to find a way for those experiences to kind of be
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brought into the curriculum to help then support students to reflect on, well, what am I learning
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from this experience? How does it complement what I'm learning in my lectures? But also
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at the same time to do that work of thinking, well, what matters to me? What kind of person
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do I want to be in the future? And how do I achieve that in an effective way, building
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on all of my experiences? And importantly, how can I use my time at university to get
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the most of my experience? How can I prepare myself for what's ahead? So I created this
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module and in creating this module, we have to make sure that we do risk, whenever you
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do experiential learning, particularly when it involves some kind of outside work, because
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it's for credit, we have to make sure students are safe while they're doing that activity.
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So I encountered Greg Miller in trying to work out the risk processes for this module.
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And so Greg very kindly said, well, yes, we can support this, but you'll have to do this
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very heavy duty risk assessment process, which is the one they used for work placement year.
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But it was incredibly detailed. You know, this is for a year of work experience, not
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for 40 hours, which is what we were talking about. I said, this is a bit much, Greg. He
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was like, no, but that's what we've got to do. And so me and Greg had some very interesting
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discussions where I was saying, come on, Greg, let's be a bit more reasonable about this.
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This is a barrier for me doing something really innovative in the curriculum.
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And so that was how Greg and I actually ended up coming to work together, because I was
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a bit annoying and kept insisting that there must be a more efficient way to bring experiential
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learning into the curriculum. So we found a really great result in the end. And I think
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that's really that was the start of the work. And Greg recognising that there were barriers
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to this work being done effectively. And if I, as someone who's quite tenacious and
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stubborn was having to really fight to do it, other people who weren't quite so annoying
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as me probably wouldn't have persisted. And so that opportunity would have just disappeared.
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So it was really that that's how my interest and how my kind of passion for this work really
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came about.
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So, Karen, what are some of the ways that you have implemented experiential learning?
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And how has this been received? Are there any projects that you're particularly excited
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about?
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Yeah. So I think it's important to say that experiential learning isn't new in and of
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itself at the University of Leeds. And it wasn't new when we started this work. I mean,
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we started this work about two or three years ago now. So it wasn't new. We had loads going
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on. So work placement years were really kind of prevalent, study abroad, short opportunities
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over summer periods, for example. You know, we had lots going on. And then also we had
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lots of people who, like me, had created opportunities within modules. There was lots of pockets
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of good practice going on. So we weren't starting from nowhere. But a lot of this work was going
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on in the extracurricular space or co-curricular space. It wasn't very often happening in the
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curriculum. And as we know, increasingly, students are quite time poor and they're having
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to make choices between working for income just to survive while they're at university
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and prioritising their studies. And for those students who are having to work quite a lot
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of hours to supplement their time or because they have caring responsibilities or they're
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commuter students and have long commutes and things like that, they would say, well, actually,
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we're going to prioritise the degree. You know, whatever is in our degree is where our
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emphasis should go. And I think there's a lot going on in that kind of subliminal messaging
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of what we put in the degree programme is what students will think matters. And so if
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we're leaving some activities to the kind of extracurricular space, then actually that
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might make students think, well, maybe that's not so important. That's not my priority because
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it's not in my degree. So we were really trying to shift so that we could build on all of
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the expertise that happened in the university to bring it into curriculum. So we weren't
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working from nothing. But what we have done and the most joyful bit of this job has been
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finding all the people who work in this space, you know, who were already doing it, who were
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already annoying Greggs or other equivalents to try and get stuff done despite a lot of
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barriers. So what we've been trying to do is uncover those people. We've been trying
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to celebrate those people. We've been trying to fund people to be brave and try new things.
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So that's kind of what we've been doing is trying to encourage new activity. We've been
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trying to make it as easy as possible for people to get started with experiential learning.
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And I think what we've achieved is a shift in recognition that experiential learning
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is a pedagogy, it's an approach to teaching, which can enhance the experience for students,
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but also for staff. I'm a great believer that teaching via experiential learning is a really
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great thing as a member of staff as well. So we're changing the narrative. We're saying
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we can move beyond the traditional stand in a lecture theatre. We're not replacing that.
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I think that's also very important. There's a place for that. In order to do experiential
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learning, we need the knowledge in the first place in order to understand it. So what's
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exciting is just the range of ways in which people are creative and the way that technology
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is beginning to come into that space. So we're sitting in Helix recording this podcast at
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the moment, which is a phenomenal space. But we've got people using virtual reality as
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a form of pedagogy of kind of inducting people into different work environments, for example,
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in dentistry or in food science, or extended reality and things like that. So we've got
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a lot of innovation happening. And we're right on the cusp of digital innovation and expansion
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that makes this a really exciting time for us to be doing experiential learning.
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And I guess you've already spoke on this a little bit. But I think one of the things
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that comes up in dialogues about experiential learning is that it involves really complex
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collaboration between students, academics, external partners and professional services.
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And so I wanted to ask you the different ways that you break down those barriers and the
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ways that you support those different groups to ensure that they all experience the benefits
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of experiential learning.
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Yeah, I mean, I think this is, this has been at the heart of the project from the start.
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It's not irrelevant that Greg and I are working on this together. So Greg's a professional
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service colleague who works in the space of student opportunity and how we support that
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from a kind of infrastructure kind of way. And I'm coming at it from an academic perspective.
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And that has been at the ethos of the work throughout. And increasingly, as the work's
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developed and we've started to recognise the barriers and challenges from an educator point
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of view, we've brought in the student voice to that work. We've got a fantastic team at
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the university called the Student Partnerships Team. And they've supported us to do some
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work with students in what it feels like to do experiential learning and how we can make
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that feel comfortable and safe for them as well. So I think the spirit of all of the
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work that we've been doing is it has to be collaborative. And so even when we've got,
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we've had some areas of priority around reflection and reflective practice and authentic assessment,
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for example. And key to that work has been it has to be a partnership between academic
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and professional service, because we can't do this work unless we do it together. So
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for academics, we've been always keen to emphasise the subject specialism rules, you know, and
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we're not in the space where we're saying you need to change what you are teaching.
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What we're saying is you're the experts, but are there techniques and tools that you
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could be using to bring your discipline to life in different ways that might engage students
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and stakeholders and yourself for that matter, in slightly different ways or in ways that
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deepen understanding of knowledge, I think is what experiential learning offers. So academics
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are the experts, like they know their disciplines. I'm not going to sit here and say this is
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how you teach dentistry, that would be very dangerous. But what it is, is they understand
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their students, they understand their discipline knowledge. What I've been trying to do is
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then say, well, look, if you work with some careers consultants on the issues that they
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know students are struggling with, that might help you bring some slightly different perspectives
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into this. If you work with people who from the work placements team, who might then be
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able to put you in touch with partners in those industries that can then give their
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perspectives on how that knowledge plays out in practice, then suddenly we start to
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get this really rich dialogue. But you can't bring in those external partners if you haven't
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got the teams that work with those partners and then how we do that in a really meaningful
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way for everybody. Because I think the other risk of experiential learning is that we don't
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think carefully enough or because we're all busy, that's the problem. We don't think carefully
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enough about how we manage those relationships and nurture them so that they sustain beyond
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the classroom and actually can lead to some really interesting research collaborations
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that go beyond what happens in the classroom to a meaningful collaboration for research
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active staff, for industry partners, maybe for future PhD students, all of those kind
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of collaborations which are really important. So, yeah, and then I think there's other issues,
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all the hidden kind of people that are involved, like timetabling. If you're going to do experiential
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learning, then you need particular kinds of learning spaces to be able to do that in
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a productive way. There's no good sitting in raked seating to try and collaborate in
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a team. So, you know, there's all of this kind of, it takes a whole university to make
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this happen in a kind of really meaningful way. And then we've got COIL. COIL is Collaborative
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Online International Learning, which is where you might partner with an overseas institution
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and their students on a particular project. That relies on digital infrastructure and
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things. So, this is a huge project. And so what we've been trying to do is understand
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the experience of all of these different stakeholders. So, for academics, we've been putting together
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loads of resources about how do you get started? Which teams do you need to talk to in order
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to sort out the risk assessment processes? Who is it that can put you in touch with external
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partners? What are the different techniques and tools? And who's done this? What have
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they tried? What are the things that have gone horribly wrong? I've been really wanting
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to push the whole, we need to learn from failure and we need to admit when things don't work
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and learn from that experiential learning in action. So, sharing all of those stories.
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So, we've got loads of resources for staff now. For students, we've done some student
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partnership work where we've tried to understand what feels comfortable or less comfortable
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when embarking on experiential learning. And so they've helped us put together a really
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great set of resources about how do you set up the idea of a module for students even
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before they take it? How do you induct them into that way of working before they begin?
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How do you build team ethos within a module? How do you help students understand how they
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work with each other? How can you support that experience over time? Because we all
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know working in teams can be great, but can be frustrating sometimes. And so how do we
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navigate, help students to navigate that territory? So, some really helpful resources that we've
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got from working with students and having student interns work with us, like you two,
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is an absolute pleasure. And we learn so much from that kind of added insight. And then
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at the same time, we've got QA process, quality assurance processes. So, how do we know what's
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going on? How do we ensure that there's kind of rigour in the kinds of activities that
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are going to be implemented? So, it's a whole multi-level approach that we've taken. But
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because collaboration has been at the heart of it, we've been trying to get at it from
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all the different perspectives so that there's something for everybody who is coming into
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this space to work.
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Sometimes academics and staff struggle to see how experiential learning might benefit
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them. So, how do you support staff who might not feel confident about integrating practical
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real-world elements into teaching?
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Yeah, and I think this is a really important question. And I said earlier that I find a
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lot of joy in teaching in this way. I'm quite comfortable with improvising on the spot and
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with going with the flow and kind of working with what's in front of me in that moment
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in time. But that doesn't play, that doesn't work for everybody. And I think we shouldn't
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try and make people feel like they've got to be something they are not. There are simply
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some people who don't feel comfortable not knowing what's going to happen and being more
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vulnerable. I see this, when I do this work, I am more vulnerable because I have to be
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myself in that space. I'm not being the lecturer, Karen. I'm being Karen and I'm saying if
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I don't know something and I'm all right with that. But that's not comfortable for everybody
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and I'm more experienced than someone who might be new to teaching and things.
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So, we have to recognise that this won't be for everybody. And I don't think we're
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saying as a university that everybody should do experiential learning. But what we've
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been trying to do is find little ways in for people that if they're just curious and want
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to test it, you know, it doesn't have to be a whole module. You know, at the beginning
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of the podcast, I talked about the module that I created, which was a whole scaffolded
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approach. But actually, it might just be a task that you do within a session. So, it
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might just be a debate that you set up in class where the students are applying knowledge
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to a particular discussion and they're told whether they have to be one side or another.
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And then they maybe reflect on that process afterwards and how comfortable or otherwise
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they felt and what they learned as a result of that. Or it might be that they get a project
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brief, which they just discuss some work through over a couple of seminars, for example. And
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they think, well, how would we address this problem if we were working in this kind of
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context? So, it doesn't have to be, you know, a work placement. It doesn't have to be a
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whole assessment. It could just be part of an activity. So, I think it's about firstly,
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reducing those kind of barriers that I spoke about earlier and making it as easy as possible
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for people not to have to jump through hoops to do what they want to do, to have models
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of how they might do it, to have really kind of careful guidance on, if you want to do
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this, here are the steps you follow and it will be easy. Here are the teams, here are
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the people. And we've been automating things and doing as much as we can to make it easy.
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But then it's also about just examples of templates of activities to try in a class,
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for example, or different ways of thinking about something, things to avoid so that it
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doesn't go wrong in your context. You know, those kinds of issues can be kind of quite
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helpful. We've got a really lovely community of practice as well, that's been growing
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over the time of this project. There's over 150 people in this community, which is just
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a very organic thing. And there's loads of people there that people can just ask. The
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best way to understand what to do is to find a friend and to talk about it or find someone
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who might be interested in doing something with you in a module so that you can try it
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out together. And there's safety in numbers, right? You know, you can test things out together
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and you've got two of you there to respond in the moment if things start to go a bit
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unpredicted. So I think, you know, that kind of helps. I think just being upfront and honest
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about it, it does involve work. You know, this kind of teaching, especially if there
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are partners involved, there's a bit of extra work involved, but actually being honest about
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that, but then talking about the joys that come with it and the benefits and the benefits
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for you as an educator, the benefits for your students are really kind of helpful to kind
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of articulate. And I think it's about building momentum and excitement and talking to students,
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you know, what would they benefit? You know, if all modules were experiential learning
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modules, it would be really quite a lot for students to deal with. I don't think that's
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what we're advocating, but to have an experience within a programme seems like a realistic
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thing for us to be aspiring to. So that means we don't all have to do it, but there are
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people out there who are really kind of creative and innovative and want to try something new
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and are brave enough to do that. I feel that they've got the kind of personal tools to
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do it. It really isn't for everybody, but for those who want to do it, it's incredibly
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joyful and incredibly meaningful. And the impact on students is really evident when
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you read their reflective reports or when you talk to them to kind of anecdotally or
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just in a conversation, the things they say about what they've gained from the experience
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is amazing. And that's why we're here. You know, as educators, we want the best for our
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students and we want to help them grow. So our job has been really, how do we make this
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as easy as possible? How do we make it feel as enticing as possible? Whilst also being
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realistic about what's involved, I think. But recognising that it's not for everybody
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and we certainly don't want people to feel pressured to do it if it makes them feel
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uncomfortable. That's that's good for nobody. Absolutely. I think you raise a really important
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point that experiential learning is very holistic. It's not a one size fits all.
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Exactly. Yeah, yeah. That's a good point. So another thing I wanted to chat about today
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is the process of embedding. And I guess what does embedding look like to you? Is there a way
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that you would embed within a certain module and how might you scale that across different
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programmes throughout the university? Yeah, I mean, this has been the crux of
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the project. This is where we're heading. And the embedding in the curriculum,
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as I said earlier, is so important because it sends a strong message to students about what
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matters. But it also recognises the immense pressure that students are under in terms of
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their time and their priorities and how they're being pulled in different directions. And so
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for us, if we believe in experiential learning as a pedagogy, and it is incredibly
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powerful and it has so many positive impacts on students, then we have to commit to putting that
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in the programme. So this is where the idea of the embedding came from. The at scale bit
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is tricky, I would say, because music is quite a small discipline. But if you think about the
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business school, for example, there are hundreds of people in a lecture there. So how on earth do
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we kind of make that happen? So I think it comes back to that point that you just made, Imogen,
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about there isn't a one size fits all. And we would certainly never at the university be in a
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position where we say, right, you have to do it like this. What we're trying to do is to show a
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kind of palette of opportunity. You know, here are the different ways in which you might do this. So
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it's about recognising the ways that students learn by just applying their knowledge in different
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kinds of ways. So as I said earlier, you know, it might just be different tools and techniques
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that you bring into a lecture or to a seminar, which complements a lecture. So seminars tend to
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be a bit smaller, they're a bit more easy to kind of manage. It could be a piece of homework that
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you set students off to do in between lectures, for example, go away and do this, upload a report
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here or be willing to share your findings. You know, there's whole different ways. I mean, I
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think we would love to get to a place where all programmes had some form of experiential learning
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in them. The other thing that we've been trying this year is the global industry programme.
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So this is where we've given all taught postgraduates the opportunity to do a two week
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online virtual work experience programme where they get put into teams and they work on different
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kinds of projects in interdisciplinary teams. So they're not just with people on their programme,
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but they're with people across the university. And that has been our attempt to say, well,
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can we do this at scale? You know, we've got projects going that are 200, we've got 200
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students on them working on different kinds of project. And that's been our attempt to say,
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well, actually, does it have to involve all of us going out and finding partners?
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You know, you think about Leeds as a city and the number of students we had, if everybody was
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doing this with partners in the city, they'd all be quite busy and probably wouldn't be able to
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support us all in the way that we'd like. So these virtual programmes are kind of quite interesting
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for us to explore. And we know from the data that we've got from that programme already that 90%
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of students have said they recognise the value of that opportunity and will be using it as an
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example of how they can work in different contexts in future job applications. So we know it's having
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a strong impact on the students, which is really helpful for us as we start to think, well, could
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we start using these in different ways in programmes? So that's an extra co-curricular
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offer. But how do we start bringing those kinds of things into modules on, you know, in business,
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you know, perhaps with specific kind of focus on HR, for example, or in food science with a
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particular focus on factory contexts or something like that. You know, there's kind of all these
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ways in which how do we bring these virtual experiences into a much more bespoke setting?
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So that's been part of the testing of that. So, yeah, I think the embedding bit is how we do that
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in ways that feel authentic to the discipline, that feel relevant as well. There's no point just
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doing something because it's ticking a box. It has to be meaningfully thought through and it has to
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feel right for the member of staff. You know, working in partnership with students is such a
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powerful thing to do. So if people are thinking about doing it in the curriculum, why not consult
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with students about where that would make sense from their point of view, where the content of
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a module might lend itself really well and they could see how that would work. Do it collaboratively,
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get them to help. Working with students is such an eye-opening experience for us as academics
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that we can learn a lot, I think, by doing it collaboratively.
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And in a similar context, how do you measure whether embedding and scaling have been successful
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and how do you balance between quality and scaling in experiential learning projects?
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Yeah, so this is a good question and this is where we're kind of heading in the next phase
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of the project is more of the understanding, the evaluation. I'd say where we've been so far has
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been how do we make it happen? And now we need to start evaluating the impact that it's having in
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the classroom. So from my own perspective, I've learned a lot about the impact of it through
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reading the student portfolios. So on my module, they submit an e-portfolio and a reflective
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report. And so those are really great exemplars of just how much a student has acquired through
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taking that module and seeing the ways that they talk about a kind of enhanced understanding of
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their values, of how that will determine the type of organisation that they want to work for or the
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type of work pattern that they want, of the realisation that they've come to, of all the
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skills that they've actually got and how they've managed difficult situations. That is amazing,
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you know, that you can see that played out in front of you in an assessment. And the same when
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you see students working on group projects and you see the final products of that and you see
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how confidently and how proud they are of the work that they've been doing. You know, that is
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evidence of growth, but it's very anecdotal. We have statistics of programmes like the Global
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Industry Programme that I just mentioned, where we can we ask students to sort of say how confident
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they feel in their skills at the beginning and how that progresses after or during and after.
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And you can see the growth there as well in terms of awareness of skills and confidence in their
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next steps and all of that. So we do have those kind of metrics. The research literature, as well
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as our own insights, suggests that where it's done well and where students feel supported,
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experiential learning is incredibly impactful on students, both while they're at university,
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but then also as they progress to their next steps. And how do you find integrating pedagogy
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with practice? Are there any specific examples of the ways that you equip staff, students and
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other partners to undertake experiential learning? I mean, I think pedagogy leads as a
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Russell Group university. So that means it's research intensive, which means that research
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really matters. And what we've got in this fantastic institution is lots of people who are
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absolutely at the top of their game in terms of their discipline knowledge and who respond really
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well to evidence that things are worth their time and effort. I think everybody is very time poor,
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that students and staff and our partners around the world or very locally in Leeds. And so the
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pedagogy side of things is helpful for making a case for why we should do this kind of research.
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But then also it helps us understand how we can do that in ways that feel authentic in particular
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disciplines. You know, there are some disciplines where experiential learning is written about
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a lot and there are others where it feels more of a stretch. So I think that there are some
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really kind of solid pieces of work that can just help academics understand why they would do it,
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can inspire, can give them ideas about what to do and how to do it. But certainly the research
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at a research intensive institution is everything. So that's absolutely vital, I think, to the way
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in which we kind of start to kind of roll this programme out more widely.
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And moving on to the lessons and future directions, what has been the biggest challenge
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in the beginning to implement experiential learning at Leeds? And what did you learn from it?
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Yeah, I mean, I think in my own little tiny piece of the world, it felt enormous to wrangle Greg
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into a position where I could come up with a more streamlined risk assessment process.
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And that was the start of it all, I suppose, really. I think one of the
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things is that we're a huge institution and sort of recognising that if we were going to do anything
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effective, we had to do it collaboratively. It comes back to that question that everybody's
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got a view. Everybody is time poor. And people don't necessarily feel like they've got headspace
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to innovate and be creative. And because we're so huge, and there are so many priorities,
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and there are so many things that we need to pay attention to, that being heard or being deemed
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sort of impactful enough for people to give us attention has been a real struggle because,
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you know, we've been doing this at a time of a big curriculum redefined curriculum transformation
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programme, where people have been busy thinking about lots and lots of different things at a time
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of economic crisis, you know, immediately following the pandemic, you know, at a time when
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student mental health is really poor. And so there's a lot of student support requirements.
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And so it's just a really complex time. And so feeling like we want to ask more of people
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has been a real challenge. And so I think that's been why we've been doing it kind of slowly and
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carefully and with collaboration at the heart, because we've been wanting to do it in a way that
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is sensitive to all of those challenges that everybody's facing. And we've certainly realised
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quite early on that we're not saying everybody ought to do this. This is not a kind of mandate
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for everybody to do it. But it is, we're trying to inspire people and enthuse people about the
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joys and benefits of experiential learning for everyone involved in the classroom. I mean,
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I would love for us to get to a place where we could confidently say to all prospective students,
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come to Leeds, and you will have, you know, experiential learning within your programme
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as a kind of core driver for your experience, so that you can leave university feeling equipped
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and prepared and full of enthusiasm for why you've studied this degree and how it will help
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you in the future. That would be the dream, really. I would love for staff to feel enthusiastic, to feel
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like it was worth their time, you know, feeling inspired to do the work and to want to bring
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their subject to life in just ways that resonate with today's students. Well, thank you so much for
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being on today's episode, Sharon, and we've thoroughly enjoyed chatting to you. Thank you.
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Thank you. Thanks for listening to our conversation with Dr Karen Burland,
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Academic Lead for Student Opportunities and Futures at Leeds, about the fascinating ways
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that experiential learning is becoming an essential pillar of the University of Leeds curriculum.
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Thanks and see you next time.
