Anne Jacoby | Building Cultures Where People Are Valued and Deliver Value

WEBVTT
1
00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:05.280
Parachute did in and saw their corporate environments. They got a real clear sense of their cultures.
2
00:00:05.280 --> 00:00:09.360
You can almost feel it. It becomes kind of a spidey sense that you develop like,
3
00:00:09.360 --> 00:00:15.680
wow, this culture is off or there's some toxicity here or this one is really thriving and
4
00:00:15.680 --> 00:00:21.040
you start to see the patterns. I think that that was my aha was oh my goodness.
5
00:00:21.040 --> 00:00:27.040
If we can just adopt these patterns and give people the tools to be more creative and to recognize
6
00:00:27.840 --> 00:00:33.280
that, you know, people process technology systems, it's all meaningless if you don't have the
7
00:00:33.280 --> 00:00:40.480
right culture in place and if you're not encouraging the right behaviors. So that was kind of my
8
00:00:40.480 --> 00:00:47.600
my epiphany, I guess, was wow, there's such variance here and there actually is a method for madness.
9
00:00:47.600 --> 00:00:53.120
We're starting the holiday season strong with Angikobi, the creative culture expert guiding
10
00:00:53.120 --> 00:00:58.240
today's top leaders. She'll be sharing with us the inside blueprint for moving through
11
00:00:58.240 --> 00:01:03.600
your corporate holiday party with intention and without spilling your drink. Get ready to raise your
12
00:01:03.600 --> 00:01:18.320
glass.
13
00:01:22.160 --> 00:01:27.520
Hey, Bessies, while you're here, do all the things like, share, subscribe, smash the buttons.
14
00:01:27.520 --> 00:01:32.880
We appreciate your support. Welcome to the exit interview. Today we are here welcomed by
15
00:01:32.880 --> 00:01:40.400
Angikobi, author of Born to Create, a leader in work culture. So and thank you so much for joining
16
00:01:40.400 --> 00:01:49.920
us today. We're so glad to have you here on our holiday month episode. It would be very
17
00:01:49.920 --> 00:01:55.680
interesting to hear your perspective on how do you get sort of an industry from financial services
18
00:01:55.680 --> 00:02:01.200
for example, that doesn't have a lot of creativity and get them over to an entertainment side. But
19
00:02:01.200 --> 00:02:07.520
if you can start sort of with your origin story of how this all came to be and how you went from
20
00:02:07.520 --> 00:02:14.400
being yourself in the creative industry and then now you've written a book all about creativity
21
00:02:14.400 --> 00:02:19.280
and work culture. Yes, absolutely. The origin story. Let's start there. Let's start there.
22
00:02:22.480 --> 00:02:29.040
So I have a very unconventional path to business and business leadership and consulting. I started
23
00:02:29.520 --> 00:02:34.400
career in the arts, you know, since I was way high, you know, really thought that I would be a singer,
24
00:02:34.400 --> 00:02:39.840
actor, dancer, my entire career. And I went to the high school for the arts here in Los Angeles.
25
00:02:39.840 --> 00:02:44.160
I studied theater in Northwestern and I thought this is it. This is what I was meant to do. This is
26
00:02:44.160 --> 00:02:52.000
my calling. And then I kind of shifted gears. I found myself in New York during 9-11. I discovered
27
00:02:52.000 --> 00:02:57.360
that I wanted more stability and control over my own destiny. It's very difficult to have that
28
00:02:57.360 --> 00:03:04.160
sense of control as a performer. And I thought, I'll join a super stable startup. That's
29
00:03:08.160 --> 00:03:13.040
fun. But it ended up being a really stable choice. I was there for 12 and a half years and helped
30
00:03:13.040 --> 00:03:18.480
scale this enterprise from seven people to thousands around the globe. It was this rocket chip
31
00:03:18.480 --> 00:03:24.880
experience. And that's really where I got this aha that creativity belongs in business,
32
00:03:24.880 --> 00:03:31.200
that to build a super successful, high performing team, to scale a business, to reach all of those
33
00:03:31.200 --> 00:03:36.640
milestones, you've got to apply your creativity. You've got to be innovative. And so that was really
34
00:03:36.640 --> 00:03:42.720
the spark, I guess, for going on this path to help other organizations yield that kind of culture.
35
00:03:43.280 --> 00:03:48.320
What attracted you to the startup in the first place? I was in the legal sector, professional
36
00:03:48.320 --> 00:03:52.720
services. I'll tell you the origin story of that, actually, because I think it's an interesting
37
00:03:53.200 --> 00:03:59.120
one. I was waiting tables as an actor does, right? Waiting tables, babysitting, doing all the things.
38
00:03:59.120 --> 00:04:05.280
And I met someone who was also a very early career as a headhunter. And we really hit it off,
39
00:04:05.280 --> 00:04:10.480
you know, I was chatting with her as I was waiting on our table. And she said, you know what,
40
00:04:10.480 --> 00:04:14.320
I've got to find you a better job. You know, you went to Northwestern. There's more potential in
41
00:04:14.320 --> 00:04:20.320
you. And so she really saw that potential in someone that she just met. It's all conversational.
42
00:04:20.320 --> 00:04:24.880
And so I think that really speaks to the beauty of finding connection and building human
43
00:04:24.880 --> 00:04:30.240
connection and saying yes. And so she sent me on this interview and kind of the rest was history.
44
00:04:30.240 --> 00:04:34.480
I just really fell in love with business building and the culture and the opportunity.
45
00:04:34.480 --> 00:04:40.400
Yeah, I love that. This is this conversation for me personally is so fascinating.
46
00:04:40.400 --> 00:04:44.640
Obviously, just from my background as a producer, from my work as a coach.
47
00:04:45.120 --> 00:04:54.640
And so I'm deeply converted already to the idea that creativity and leadership are very
48
00:04:54.640 --> 00:05:02.560
aligned. But there's such, you know, there's been so much conversation and like almost pitting one
49
00:05:02.560 --> 00:05:08.160
against the other. You're either a creative or you're a leader or a business serious business
50
00:05:08.160 --> 00:05:13.840
person. And they they've created this, I don't know, black and white. We're looking at a
51
00:05:13.840 --> 00:05:20.640
Democrat version of creativity and leadership. And we're being a serious business person.
52
00:05:20.640 --> 00:05:24.800
Yeah. And that like, well, you shouldn't have to be creative. You know, like being creative
53
00:05:24.800 --> 00:05:29.200
has doesn't have anything to do with being a great leader. So I love that you do this work.
54
00:05:29.840 --> 00:05:33.440
And have had such great success at it. But I want to just start around.
55
00:05:33.920 --> 00:05:41.440
What did you find it was difficult in the beginning to even have that conversation for
56
00:05:41.440 --> 00:05:46.720
quote unquote, serious, you know, business leaders around like, Hey, you know, creativity can
57
00:05:46.720 --> 00:05:52.160
really help you lead. Like was there resistance? Yeah. Yeah. I love the question. And it's
58
00:05:52.160 --> 00:05:57.680
interesting. So when I was in New York, I actually ran the financial services portfolio. And I found
59
00:05:57.680 --> 00:06:02.800
that some of those banks were the most innovative, creative cultures that had come across.
60
00:06:02.800 --> 00:06:07.760
They were experimenting in new ways. They were outsourcing kind of first mover to think about
61
00:06:07.760 --> 00:06:13.440
different ways of flowing work through the system. And I found that some of the quote unquote
62
00:06:13.440 --> 00:06:19.680
creative organizations are actually the most process heavy and uncreative cultures. And so I
63
00:06:19.680 --> 00:06:24.880
always challenge the notion that I love how you phrased it. It's kind of this binary thinking
64
00:06:24.880 --> 00:06:29.680
you're either creative or you're not or you're born creative or you're just you don't have that gene.
65
00:06:29.680 --> 00:06:35.440
We're in reality. It's a skill like any other that can be practiced. And it really requires
66
00:06:35.440 --> 00:06:40.800
that discipline that I draw from my arts background, that discipline around. Well, you're not
67
00:06:40.800 --> 00:06:45.200
always going to feel creative, but you've got to dedicate time to it. You've got to work out that
68
00:06:45.200 --> 00:06:52.160
muscle so that you develop that creativity within yourself to to turn it on when you need to turn it
69
00:06:52.160 --> 00:06:58.800
on. And I think that that is it's a process. It's a leadership skill. But I to respond to your
70
00:06:58.800 --> 00:07:05.200
question. I think I did sense some resistance. Oh, creative. That's chaotic or that's messy or
71
00:07:05.200 --> 00:07:10.400
that's not going to have the analytical rigor that we need. Right. When in reality, you know, I got
72
00:07:10.400 --> 00:07:18.800
my KPI to your creativity in that. Yeah. And in reality, experimentation and trying new things and
73
00:07:18.800 --> 00:07:25.360
taking risks is actually what great successful companies have always been doing. They might phrase
74
00:07:25.360 --> 00:07:33.120
it in a different way where they're driving innovation. Yeah. That was going to be my next
75
00:07:33.120 --> 00:07:39.920
question. So what is the correlation or what's the connection between between creativity, innovation
76
00:07:39.920 --> 00:07:45.440
or problem solving? Because particularly coming from the very like tight corporate culture,
77
00:07:45.440 --> 00:07:49.680
I come from financial services, when you hear the word like, oh, people be create. I mean,
78
00:07:49.680 --> 00:07:53.280
it's numbers, right? We're in finance. Now, it's black. It's white. It's wrong. It's right. You
79
00:07:53.280 --> 00:07:59.040
know. And so it's sort of when you think of creativity, you think of, oh, they're working on like
80
00:07:59.040 --> 00:08:06.000
fun projects. So how do you get what what what is the connection there between what's the output of
81
00:08:06.000 --> 00:08:12.320
creativity? Yeah. I see creative thinking and doing as problem solving. So I see them very much
82
00:08:12.320 --> 00:08:18.880
in sync and to solve a problem and to to solve a customer's really intense problem, you got to
83
00:08:18.880 --> 00:08:23.760
spend some time dedicated to let's figure this out. Let's think about this in new ways. Let's
84
00:08:23.760 --> 00:08:28.480
gather different perspectives so that we're really seeing this holistically. And that's to me
85
00:08:28.480 --> 00:08:33.200
creativity and action. I think your earlier question about the relationship between creativity
86
00:08:33.200 --> 00:08:39.680
and innovation is creativity is just the generation of these novel new fresh ideas where innovation,
87
00:08:39.680 --> 00:08:45.360
it's got to be useful to the business. And if it's not useful, then it's just kind of creative
88
00:08:45.360 --> 00:08:50.640
for creative sake. You know, it's not really connecting the dots and pulling it back to the
89
00:08:50.640 --> 00:08:55.840
north star, pulling it back to the purpose of what problem are resolving. And so what I try to do
90
00:08:55.840 --> 00:09:01.840
in my work is really let's develop the creative muscles that people feel more comfortable and safe
91
00:09:01.840 --> 00:09:07.200
generating these new fresh ideas. But let's anchor it to the north star and so that we're always
92
00:09:07.200 --> 00:09:12.880
building something with purpose. I think that's where real innovation thrives. Right. So we'll tell
93
00:09:12.960 --> 00:09:22.080
me about the purpose part two because again, there's a language thing with us as coaches a little
94
00:09:22.080 --> 00:09:26.160
bit where there's like we talk in purpose, like businesses might say, well, this is our mission.
95
00:09:26.160 --> 00:09:31.680
You know, what was your process for that resistance? What were some of the most effective ways
96
00:09:31.680 --> 00:09:36.400
that you were able to communicate to these companies and individuals, I know as well. Yeah.
97
00:09:36.400 --> 00:09:42.720
Like how this was going to really make a difference in their bottom line. Yeah, I mean, I do like
98
00:09:42.720 --> 00:09:49.280
to look at the data too, you know, being an MBA or, you know, really numbers speak to me too,
99
00:09:49.280 --> 00:09:54.720
I get it. And there's a real business case for creativity. There's an ROI associated with it.
100
00:09:54.720 --> 00:10:00.480
So I think if you speak in those terms and say, look, studies show that if you apply more creativity,
101
00:10:00.480 --> 00:10:05.840
you yield more organizational mattering, better productivity, better business results. If you can
102
00:10:05.840 --> 00:10:11.600
really point to those studies, I think that helps to anchor it in some real business purpose. Right.
103
00:10:12.320 --> 00:10:20.720
Truthiness, if you will. And so I find that those research nods to research really do help
104
00:10:20.720 --> 00:10:27.440
to move the needle. But I think creativity also feels good. And I think we can't dismiss the fact
105
00:10:27.440 --> 00:10:34.480
that people are craving connection, especially now they're craving the feeling, the feel good nature
106
00:10:34.480 --> 00:10:41.760
of collaborating with other inspiring people. And that requires time and intention and a safe
107
00:10:41.760 --> 00:10:47.600
environment where people can take risks together and feel like they can say a wacky idea and not be
108
00:10:47.600 --> 00:10:52.960
laughed out of the room. And that's the kind of environment that I think is so special when you do
109
00:10:52.960 --> 00:10:59.440
so with intention and when you build creativity into the system. Right. Right. Speaking of risk,
110
00:10:59.760 --> 00:11:05.440
right now we're in a very high pressure environment. There are budget cuts. There's job insecurity.
111
00:11:06.800 --> 00:11:12.880
There's a lot of pressures right now to perform to make sure that you're keeping costs low
112
00:11:14.160 --> 00:11:24.160
and providing appropriate KPIs. How do you foster creativity in an environment where there's
113
00:11:24.160 --> 00:11:29.760
not a lot of room for failure? It's a really tough one. I'll give the consulting answer,
114
00:11:29.760 --> 00:11:38.000
which is it depends. Yeah, it depends. And you have to choose carefully. So I would never apply
115
00:11:38.000 --> 00:11:42.400
a blanket solution because it's not black and white. There's so much nuance to that question.
116
00:11:43.200 --> 00:11:50.160
But I do think that noticing that when you create space and time for people to think about a
117
00:11:50.160 --> 00:11:56.320
different way of doing things and when you reward and encourage the creative process of continuous
118
00:11:56.320 --> 00:12:03.920
improvement, it may not be kind of a wacky, you know, completely big pivot changed the business.
119
00:12:03.920 --> 00:12:09.360
You may not be in the position to do that. But if you can create and provide different ways of
120
00:12:09.360 --> 00:12:15.120
doing things around the edges, that can really drive the improvement that we're looking for.
121
00:12:15.120 --> 00:12:19.840
And let's face it with with all these cuts with all of the budget pressure that people have,
122
00:12:19.840 --> 00:12:24.480
the status quo is not going to cut it. And I think people realize they've got to think differently
123
00:12:24.480 --> 00:12:28.720
and do things differently. And that's going to require creative mindset and creative doing.
124
00:12:28.720 --> 00:12:35.920
Right. I'm curious. What do you have sort of examples of like kind of like penny drop moments,
125
00:12:35.920 --> 00:12:41.600
right, with either companies or individuals that you've worked with where as they start to apply,
126
00:12:41.760 --> 00:12:45.920
these principles are start to look at things, whether it's again their own personal performance or
127
00:12:45.920 --> 00:12:53.120
maybe within the culture of the company or an ROI, the actual outcome. Yeah, it's interesting.
128
00:12:53.120 --> 00:12:59.680
And the stories are so powerful. And I kind of think in acting story, right? It's the linear line.
129
00:13:00.640 --> 00:13:06.880
But I think, you know, I work with a lot of legal and compliance departments groups that
130
00:13:07.440 --> 00:13:12.960
don't necessarily, again, consider themselves naturally creative. And there may be some truth to
131
00:13:12.960 --> 00:13:20.000
that. But getting them to unlock the potential of wow, we could do this in a different way. Or wow,
132
00:13:20.000 --> 00:13:25.440
maybe this process that we've been doing doesn't even need to be done anymore. Maybe we can set it
133
00:13:25.440 --> 00:13:30.880
to the side or maybe we can bring in technology and have that automate a certain part of the process.
134
00:13:30.880 --> 00:13:38.160
I think it's those moments have really been those penny drop moments where you recognize that how
135
00:13:38.160 --> 00:13:44.080
by bringing together these different perspectives and experimenting together, we've seen a completely
136
00:13:44.080 --> 00:13:50.800
new way to get our work done. And it feels better and it's more efficient and it just builds
137
00:13:50.800 --> 00:13:58.480
better culture. Right, right. Do you, I wonder, do you see it? Almost, I can presume working with
138
00:13:58.480 --> 00:14:02.960
different companies like say probably a startup, right? Where they're like trying to be a disruptor
139
00:14:02.960 --> 00:14:09.200
and trying to break all the chains, right? That they might lean into like, you know, yeah, like be
140
00:14:09.200 --> 00:14:13.440
creative, like think out the box, like kind of thinking that that can be the ethos of a startup.
141
00:14:13.440 --> 00:14:18.480
But do you see it almost get like, oh, like the pendulum swing too much the other way where it's like
142
00:14:18.480 --> 00:14:24.000
everyone's so busy trying to break the box that no one actually like has a process around how
143
00:14:24.000 --> 00:14:30.480
to get things done? Yeah. Oh gosh, that's an insightful question. And what I noticed in having
144
00:14:30.480 --> 00:14:36.160
worked with startups, really early stage startups all the way to, you know, Fortune 50 companies,
145
00:14:36.160 --> 00:14:41.200
is that there are these inflection points where you experiment, you experiment in all of a sudden,
146
00:14:41.200 --> 00:14:46.800
you need out of necessity to create a process and you need more hierarchy and you need more structure
147
00:14:46.800 --> 00:14:54.880
to things. And I think the pattern that I've observed is when things become so process driven
148
00:14:54.880 --> 00:15:01.520
that all of the creativity is almost engineered out of the system. And that's where you start to see
149
00:15:02.240 --> 00:15:08.480
the lack of innovation, you see the lack of that creative spark, the lack of empowerment to,
150
00:15:08.480 --> 00:15:13.840
I'm going to make a choice to serve this customer in a better way. And let's see how this lands.
151
00:15:14.160 --> 00:15:19.520
It's that kind of ingenuity that you don't want to architect out of the system. And so I think
152
00:15:19.520 --> 00:15:25.200
whether you're a startup, defining your core processes for the first time or a Fortune 50
153
00:15:25.200 --> 00:15:30.720
company that has been doing things in a certain way, you got to protect those opportunities for
154
00:15:30.720 --> 00:15:35.120
improvement around the edges for innovative and creative thinking.
155
00:15:35.120 --> 00:15:41.680
You know, when I used to hire people when I was in my corporate job, during the onboarding
156
00:15:41.680 --> 00:15:46.080
process, one of the things that I would say is, you know, here are the guidelines, here's what we do,
157
00:15:46.080 --> 00:15:53.920
here's how we do things. But we do these processes were created in place at the time that it made
158
00:15:53.920 --> 00:16:00.320
the most sense. So if you find a way to make it better, and by all means, speak up. So is that sort
159
00:16:00.320 --> 00:16:09.200
of an example of like encouraging creativity? And you have to create that safety where they're not
160
00:16:09.520 --> 00:16:14.080
only allowed to speak up. They're really encouraged to speak up. And I think that's the nuanced
161
00:16:14.080 --> 00:16:19.040
difference is that there's an expectation of creativity wherever you sit at the company, whether
162
00:16:19.040 --> 00:16:25.120
you're in intern, whether you're in finance, whether you're in marketing, that everyone is expected
163
00:16:25.120 --> 00:16:30.800
to bring their creative thinking, their new ideas to make this company better. And everyone's
164
00:16:30.800 --> 00:16:36.400
invested in it. That's powerful. How do you foster that? How do you foster that safety?
165
00:16:36.640 --> 00:16:51.680
Yeah, I mean, gosh, if we figure that out, it's one conversation at a time, really. And I think
166
00:16:52.240 --> 00:16:57.840
for leaders to recognize that they don't have all the answers that they need to continuously learn
167
00:16:57.840 --> 00:17:04.080
and learn from people at all levels across the org, I think that's the hallmark of a really
168
00:17:04.080 --> 00:17:10.720
exceptional leader is someone who is humble, who protects the team, who speaks up, who encourages
169
00:17:10.720 --> 00:17:17.200
speaking up, who protects voices of descent, who creates those spaces to innovate and try new things,
170
00:17:17.200 --> 00:17:23.520
but also paints a very clear vision and picture of what high performance looks like and sets the
171
00:17:23.520 --> 00:17:29.920
tone. And I think that's the mark of a really exceptional leader and hopefully can foster that kind
172
00:17:29.920 --> 00:17:40.480
of environment. Is there backing that fostering your creativity in the workplace correlates with
173
00:17:40.480 --> 00:17:45.440
high performing teams? Oh, absolutely. Yes. Yeah, there's a lot of data that suggests that
174
00:17:46.800 --> 00:17:54.160
those that implement those creative behaviors and facilitate that kind of culture move the needle
175
00:17:54.240 --> 00:17:58.720
on results, which is exciting to see. I wanted just for people who are watching who may
176
00:17:59.520 --> 00:18:06.400
be in a difficult, say, or challenging company culture, but are still trying to function because
177
00:18:06.400 --> 00:18:11.840
they may be like, I got to stay in this job right now. Job again, because this is what it is.
178
00:18:12.640 --> 00:18:19.360
What do you find are either best practices or advice for people who are trying to, you know,
179
00:18:19.360 --> 00:18:24.960
still stay engaged? What's your advice for someone whose culture may not at the time at least,
180
00:18:24.960 --> 00:18:29.680
right? Belize support. They may laugh at you if you say something in the room. Yeah.
181
00:18:29.680 --> 00:18:33.760
But what kind of what are either best practices or advice would you have for people who still want
182
00:18:33.760 --> 00:18:37.840
to attempt to be creative? What have what have you seen? What what advice would you give them?
183
00:18:38.480 --> 00:18:46.000
Yeah, I mean, aside from doing on the side, that may be it too. Like it's maybe like
184
00:18:46.560 --> 00:18:50.560
find a different outlet for it. Find a different outlet or find your advocates, you know,
185
00:18:50.560 --> 00:18:57.200
find folks who are aligned with your vision, with your your principal ideas around there's
186
00:18:57.200 --> 00:19:01.440
got to be a better way to do this. You kind of have to find your champions and then build that
187
00:19:01.440 --> 00:19:07.360
momentum and that's really how I've seen real creative endeavors get implemented. Sometimes
188
00:19:07.360 --> 00:19:12.800
there's a lot of resistance in the beginning where people don't yet see the possibility and
189
00:19:12.800 --> 00:19:17.440
the vision. Yeah. And so you've got to build that advocacy and you've got to figure out who are my
190
00:19:17.440 --> 00:19:23.680
champions? Who are my detractors? Who's neutral? And how can I move more people along with this story?
191
00:19:23.680 --> 00:19:28.880
So that we can try some really great creative things. Those of us who are visionaries like you're
192
00:19:28.880 --> 00:19:33.440
going to see this thing so clearly you're going to have a lane into the future. That's the gift
193
00:19:33.440 --> 00:19:38.800
of the creativity. That's the site. Yeah. God is like, hey, here it is. I try to encourage people
194
00:19:38.800 --> 00:19:50.240
to not be set off or demoralized that initially people may not see it because that to me that's
195
00:19:50.240 --> 00:19:55.520
sometimes that's the price of site of foresight especially in business. What if your work is
196
00:19:55.520 --> 00:20:01.760
purely creative? You're going to see some things before other people do and that's the gift.
197
00:20:01.760 --> 00:20:06.720
And then find those first few people like it's like in the Bible like I hear the sound of an
198
00:20:06.720 --> 00:20:11.520
abundance of rain and it's the drought and everyone's like, what'd you talk about baby? It ain't
199
00:20:11.520 --> 00:20:17.280
rain in four months. You're the person who you hear it before it comes before it's reality. I was
200
00:20:17.280 --> 00:20:21.760
just interested that it seemed like you have the same experience but it seems that there are those
201
00:20:21.760 --> 00:20:27.120
people who can see things and you have to kind of get through that season of people not getting it
202
00:20:27.120 --> 00:20:32.240
until they do. Yeah and I say meet them where they are. You know that if you are listening and if
203
00:20:32.240 --> 00:20:37.040
you can bring them along that journey so that they feel like they have their fingerprints on it
204
00:20:37.040 --> 00:20:42.720
sometimes that yields something even better than the initial vision and so I think that that takes
205
00:20:42.720 --> 00:20:49.600
a real humility of the creative person. I have to be honest though when I think of creativity
206
00:20:49.600 --> 00:20:58.480
I think of something that takes a lot of time and so I'm curious as to because to me creativity
207
00:20:58.480 --> 00:21:07.120
feels like my immediate head goes to experimentation exploration trying to find something new and for
208
00:21:07.120 --> 00:21:12.720
someone who is used to working under very tight deadlines and had a very strict like monthly quarterly
209
00:21:12.720 --> 00:21:19.760
system and the thought of creativity was more of like a luxury. What's your feedback to that
210
00:21:19.760 --> 00:21:25.040
thought process? Yeah. I'm clearly the dinosaur in the box that's trying to like break free so
211
00:21:26.240 --> 00:21:33.120
you're certainly not alone. You just tell you that. No I think first of all there's been a really
212
00:21:33.120 --> 00:21:38.720
interesting study and this is from Ronnie Ryder Pullman out of University of Nebraska where they've
213
00:21:38.720 --> 00:21:46.960
studied different teams and team A completes a project and takes 15-20 minutes to reflect and
214
00:21:46.960 --> 00:21:52.160
talk about what went well with this. What could we be doing differently? How should we look at this
215
00:21:52.160 --> 00:21:58.480
in a different way if we were to do this again? That really small intervention of reflection
216
00:21:58.480 --> 00:22:04.160
and then moves on to the next project versus team B which finishes the project and moves right into
217
00:22:04.160 --> 00:22:13.200
project the next project and I think the data clearly show that the team that reflects is much
218
00:22:13.200 --> 00:22:20.720
more creative in the next project and so those very brief moments of disruption of kind of
219
00:22:20.720 --> 00:22:27.120
pausing and reflecting has really tremendous impact on a team's ability to create and it doesn't
220
00:22:27.120 --> 00:22:33.680
take a lot of time and we're so in this hustle culture right productivity productivity. We know
221
00:22:33.680 --> 00:22:38.080
that the best creative ideas don't happen when you don't have any time to think when you're not
222
00:22:38.080 --> 00:22:44.320
taking walks or reflecting or connecting with your colleague or grabbing that cup of coffee with someone.
223
00:22:44.320 --> 00:22:49.120
I mean that's where the creativity really blooms and so we've got to create those spaces. We've
224
00:22:49.120 --> 00:22:56.320
got to pause and reflect and I think the data really show that there's an ROI to that. Interesting.
225
00:22:56.320 --> 00:23:05.440
The messaging around what creativity is. That's why I feel like it's half of it is the problem
226
00:23:05.440 --> 00:23:10.480
around when people just hear it. It's like they think oh we're gonna sit around a fire circle
227
00:23:10.480 --> 00:23:16.720
and start braiding each other's hair. It's creativity. Yeah. I'm just we're gonna like
228
00:23:21.520 --> 00:23:28.240
and it goes kind of to a super super woo woo out there. I think part of that though is also because
229
00:23:28.240 --> 00:23:35.120
when you think of creativity it almost has like a child like connotation to it when I have toddlers
230
00:23:35.120 --> 00:23:39.600
and so when I think of creativity I think of my daughter painting like that's literally the image
231
00:23:39.600 --> 00:23:44.960
that comes in my head and so I think that's not associated necessarily immediately with like
232
00:23:44.960 --> 00:23:52.880
sitting at a desk and working. Of course. What would you say core principles of creativity in the
233
00:23:52.880 --> 00:23:59.040
workplace and the those direct outputs? I'd say rewarding the creative process and not just the
234
00:23:59.040 --> 00:24:07.680
output and I think there's a lot of companies that are highly critical and and they want perfection
235
00:24:07.680 --> 00:24:12.000
right they're really striving for perfection they want high performance there's nothing wrong
236
00:24:12.000 --> 00:24:17.360
with high performance but you've got to reward people for the effort right and acknowledge them
237
00:24:17.440 --> 00:24:23.200
for the creative thinking because we know that there are a lot of bad ideas like not all ideas are
238
00:24:23.200 --> 00:24:28.480
good but if you're not rewarding the generation of those ideas you're gonna shut people down before
239
00:24:28.480 --> 00:24:32.320
you get to the good idea and we don't want that to happen. Are you talking about parenting?
240
00:24:34.800 --> 00:24:40.720
Well I was gonna say when you're talking about how I'm also a mom and it's funny I've done this
241
00:24:40.720 --> 00:24:47.280
exercise with puzzles it's a creative exercise and I've done it with corporate teams adults
242
00:24:47.680 --> 00:24:55.280
and I've done it with elite university members and then I've done it with six graders my
243
00:24:55.280 --> 00:25:01.520
daughter six great-class and the teams that performed the best six graders six graders yeah right
244
00:25:01.520 --> 00:25:08.160
because they're not self-editing right and they are you know connecting organically it's just kind of
245
00:25:08.160 --> 00:25:13.600
how they move through the world and it's really interesting to see how we lose that so when you say
246
00:25:13.600 --> 00:25:17.920
child like maybe that's a good thing right to think about creativity is going back to our child
247
00:25:17.920 --> 00:25:24.080
like state let's just try it absolutely but it's I could be challenging how what would you say to
248
00:25:24.080 --> 00:25:30.720
leaders of departments or executives who okay we're at an inflection point we're trying to grow as
249
00:25:30.720 --> 00:25:37.600
a company we need to be more creative there needs to be a shift where we need to elevate everything
250
00:25:37.600 --> 00:25:44.320
whatever that is how could an executive or manager head of a department what should be their first
251
00:25:44.320 --> 00:25:50.160
sort of approach to making that happen yeah and I think going back to that idea of rewarding the
252
00:25:50.160 --> 00:25:55.760
creative process and really inspiring folks you can make it playful right make it gamify it if you
253
00:25:55.760 --> 00:26:03.200
can the the challenges a lot of times you see companies that maybe they'll have a hackathon you know
254
00:26:03.200 --> 00:26:08.080
there's nothing wrong with that but they're kind of signaling to the org that okay there's one
255
00:26:08.080 --> 00:26:13.120
day to be creative and the rest of the time just do do your normal jobs with your head down right
256
00:26:13.120 --> 00:26:17.680
where in reality you've got to architect these moments right that you have the time and space to be
257
00:26:17.680 --> 00:26:23.520
creative and and bubble up those great ideas that it's kind of baked into just your mode of operating
258
00:26:23.520 --> 00:26:29.680
and I think that's the difference between a company that truly has a creative culture versus one
259
00:26:29.680 --> 00:26:35.600
that just says okay we'll have innovation week and then that's it listen I wish if you can get
260
00:26:35.600 --> 00:26:43.360
legal departments compliance departments more creative my god like okay yeah we know what you're
261
00:26:43.360 --> 00:26:47.440
trying to do everyone respects each other and what they're trying to do everyone like we all have
262
00:26:47.440 --> 00:26:55.920
the same goal one one one sound yeah um but let's be creative in how we address the issues like you
263
00:26:55.920 --> 00:27:01.680
bring up the issues but maybe how we address them isn't so black and white and the best versions of
264
00:27:01.680 --> 00:27:07.440
that are when everyone's willing to have that conversation is that what you found yeah and I think
265
00:27:07.440 --> 00:27:12.960
I look no one wants executives to go to jail right they're certain roles that we've gotten
266
00:27:12.960 --> 00:27:18.320
by by but I think you know the legal department that I've seen that's really effective is about being
267
00:27:18.320 --> 00:27:23.120
a business enabler and finding ways where we can do this or have we thought about this and really
268
00:27:23.120 --> 00:27:29.360
being a partner a strategic partner exactly to the business that's really what an effective
269
00:27:29.360 --> 00:27:35.040
compliance program can deliver right to to that point because you mentioned safety what does that
270
00:27:35.040 --> 00:27:42.800
really look like for a company to create a safe working environment for people to be creative in
271
00:27:42.800 --> 00:27:49.120
yeah I mean I think um psychological safety obviously it became really popular after Google's
272
00:27:49.200 --> 00:27:54.240
project Aristotle Amy Edmondson out of Harvard did all this research around high performing
273
00:27:54.240 --> 00:27:59.600
teams and how psychological safety is the main driver of this high performing team and so I think
274
00:27:59.600 --> 00:28:05.920
if you look under the hood there it's really about making sure that people feel that they can
275
00:28:05.920 --> 00:28:11.120
raise things without being laughed at or overly criticized that they have each other's backs um
276
00:28:11.120 --> 00:28:16.480
again those voices of descent are so important to protect and and cultivate really
277
00:28:17.120 --> 00:28:23.360
so that people are looking out for each other are looking out for the organization as well and it
278
00:28:23.360 --> 00:28:28.640
requires being intentional about it and practicing and creating different forums for people to speak
279
00:28:28.640 --> 00:28:34.000
up and really listening deeply listening and that's really hard to do when you're moving a million
280
00:28:34.000 --> 00:28:41.600
miles an hour so it comes down to a leader's ability to sense what's not being said in this room
281
00:28:42.160 --> 00:28:48.480
um I notice you know in my own work you know I might be conducting a workshop and if you notice
282
00:28:49.120 --> 00:28:54.080
no one is speaking up you know you're you're you're kind of posing a question hey what do we
283
00:28:54.080 --> 00:29:00.080
think about this and just crickets and what is the hesitance so you say something stupid in a
284
00:29:00.080 --> 00:29:04.800
safe environment that's totally fine and you move through it and people feel supported through it
285
00:29:04.800 --> 00:29:10.480
but in a high risk environment where people are walking on eggshells you get those crickets
286
00:29:10.960 --> 00:29:16.000
but how do you get people to break the ice when they when they do that like what do you come over come
287
00:29:16.000 --> 00:29:21.840
that yeah how do you shake that up yeah again I think it comes down to the leaders that's the tone
288
00:29:21.840 --> 00:29:29.200
maybe the leader goes first and uh also important for the leader to admit failure and and showcase
289
00:29:29.200 --> 00:29:34.240
learning and recognize that hey I'm an imperfect person and I didn't get this right let me tell
290
00:29:34.240 --> 00:29:39.200
you about it yeah because that really demonstrates to everyone that the world is not going to crumble if
291
00:29:39.200 --> 00:29:44.080
you make a mistake uh you can move through it you can learn from it and then you you keep moving
292
00:29:44.080 --> 00:29:50.240
forward and I think it's those little conversations those stories that are so powerful to really shape
293
00:29:50.240 --> 00:29:57.120
the safety of a team what was it in your own experience while you were working at your
294
00:29:58.160 --> 00:30:04.880
previous in your previous life at your corporate job yeah um that sparked this epiphany yeah
295
00:30:05.840 --> 00:30:10.560
yeah so I was working at a firm called axiom a legal services firm and we were scaling very
296
00:30:10.560 --> 00:30:16.240
quickly and it gave me the opportunity to have clients across a lot of different industries and sectors
297
00:30:16.240 --> 00:30:21.360
and I kind of parachute it in and saw their corporate environments they got a real clear sense of
298
00:30:21.360 --> 00:30:26.960
their cultures you can almost feel it it becomes kind of a spidey sense that you develop like wow
299
00:30:26.960 --> 00:30:33.360
this culture is off or um there's some toxicity here or this one is really thriving and you start
300
00:30:33.360 --> 00:30:39.600
to see the patterns I think that that was my aha was oh my goodness if we can just adopt these
301
00:30:39.600 --> 00:30:46.400
patterns and give people the tools to be more creative and to recognize that you know people
302
00:30:46.400 --> 00:30:52.400
process technology systems it's all meaningless if you don't have the right culture in place and if
303
00:30:52.400 --> 00:31:00.480
you're not encouraging the right right behaviors so that was kind of my my epiphany I guess was wow
304
00:31:00.480 --> 00:31:06.160
there's such variance here and there actually is a method to the madness there's a way to cultivate
305
00:31:06.160 --> 00:31:11.920
a stronger creative culture and what sparked you to write the book you know I had worked
306
00:31:11.920 --> 00:31:18.720
with so many exceptional creative human beings across my various worlds right the performing arts
307
00:31:19.520 --> 00:31:24.880
my time in business the leaders that I support now and I really wanted their voices to be told
308
00:31:24.880 --> 00:31:32.720
and I wanted to hopefully offer some doable practical tips for people to live more creatively
309
00:31:32.720 --> 00:31:38.800
as an individual to lead more creatively as a leader and to foster a more creative culture so
310
00:31:38.800 --> 00:31:44.240
that's not the the book is structured and reacts away what's been some of the most surprising
311
00:31:44.240 --> 00:31:49.440
feedback you've gotten from the book or like what's the takeaway that everyone seems to be like
312
00:31:49.440 --> 00:31:55.440
you said that like that really like and like a bulb started going off for people yeah what's
313
00:31:55.440 --> 00:32:01.520
interesting is it often comes back to the process of feedback and when I was in the arts there's a
314
00:32:01.520 --> 00:32:07.040
process after you do your first run through on stage and all the actors sit in the house and the
315
00:32:07.040 --> 00:32:12.560
director sits on the apron of the stage and gives notes and it's a very public experience and
316
00:32:12.560 --> 00:32:17.840
you're getting notes oh you flood that line or you did really well that was nice chemistry between
317
00:32:17.840 --> 00:32:23.200
you two or you know try to move more to the right you didn't hit your mark whatever it is right
318
00:32:23.200 --> 00:32:32.320
you get these notes very publicly and I recognized early on that the notes process is just part of
319
00:32:32.320 --> 00:32:37.440
the creative journey that we don't have to make it this big deal of oh my gosh someone gave me
320
00:32:37.440 --> 00:32:43.680
feedback I'm in a crumble and never recover from it if we can normalize the feedback process
321
00:32:43.760 --> 00:32:49.920
there's actually a real strong element of co-creativeness and there's co-creativity embedded
322
00:32:49.920 --> 00:32:56.400
within that and I think that connection has been really exciting to see among my readers like wow
323
00:32:57.280 --> 00:33:03.360
feedback is a creative process and we we can normalize it and bake this into to our culture
324
00:33:04.080 --> 00:33:10.480
I'm curious for you personally what are because I can imagine like you said every day it's not like
325
00:33:10.480 --> 00:33:16.640
we wake up like I'm feeling so creative I just wanted to think so what's your kind of personal
326
00:33:17.360 --> 00:33:23.680
creativity habit based practice that you do to kind of keep yourself at a certain level
327
00:33:23.680 --> 00:33:28.960
yeah so in the book I call them creativity boosters and there are these brief moments of intervention
328
00:33:28.960 --> 00:33:35.040
to try to get into the creative mindset right get into that creative headspace and for me it might
329
00:33:35.280 --> 00:33:41.280
be walking around the block you know noticing the number of red flowers that I see it might be
330
00:33:41.280 --> 00:33:46.960
playing lego with my kids something that really takes me out of what my mind is focusing on maybe
331
00:33:46.960 --> 00:33:51.520
the rumination of a work problem especially if you step in a lego in that process that's true that's
332
00:33:51.520 --> 00:33:58.320
all your minds about this very true nothing like that pain that's so true but I think it's it's
333
00:33:58.320 --> 00:34:04.800
just about finding those moments of disruption that kind of gets me into my body I love to dance so
334
00:34:04.800 --> 00:34:10.480
I try to get to the studio as much as I can and just move my body and get into that creative
335
00:34:10.480 --> 00:34:16.080
space and it's amazing what a difference it makes when I invest in that time and how much more
336
00:34:16.080 --> 00:34:23.200
productive I can be when I return to the work I would like to know as you kind of progressed on your
337
00:34:23.200 --> 00:34:28.960
journey of speaking to different leaders was there anything that surprised you that you learned
338
00:34:29.040 --> 00:34:36.000
from some of these leaders oh I learned new things every day and I love learning and some of the
339
00:34:36.000 --> 00:34:43.360
leaders that I've I've had the privilege of partnering with have revealed insecurities call it
340
00:34:44.880 --> 00:34:50.880
you know do executives actually tell you about insecurity oh my goodness yes the cost of
341
00:34:50.880 --> 00:34:57.440
syndrome is real you have a certain title yes you can still feel a little out of your element and
342
00:34:57.440 --> 00:35:03.920
out of your depth and so I I think I I learn how human we all are right and if you take the mask
343
00:35:03.920 --> 00:35:12.320
away and just be real with people how much more refreshing and fulfilling that way of life can be
344
00:35:12.320 --> 00:35:18.960
and that's how I try to live my life and try to encourage others to live theirs is feeling that
345
00:35:18.960 --> 00:35:24.400
connection to your your values and how how you want to show up it's really important and I've
346
00:35:24.400 --> 00:35:32.160
learned that from from years I wonder because I mean obviously you're an actor by trade so
347
00:35:32.160 --> 00:35:37.680
getting in front of people's the bright lights and cameras and audiences I this is I'm sure
348
00:35:37.680 --> 00:35:44.000
something for you that you're like I love this this is my happy place and I'm sure you have
349
00:35:44.000 --> 00:35:48.880
worked for people who are like I don't love this I don't crave this yeah not my happy place yes
350
00:35:48.880 --> 00:35:53.280
what would be your like process right to help someone who's like I really don't want to be seen
351
00:35:53.760 --> 00:35:56.960
I'm really not in front of this is not for me I'm just asking for the people
352
00:35:57.920 --> 00:36:05.360
because the people want to know so there's no personal curiosity at all what kind of ways do you
353
00:36:05.360 --> 00:36:11.120
use to kind of encourage people out of their shell yeah we don't want to be judged right we all we
354
00:36:11.120 --> 00:36:19.120
that's so because we're perfect yeah hello I don't know I don't know well it's funny I'll put it
355
00:36:19.120 --> 00:36:25.200
into context to writing the book yeah and feeling like oh gosh this is so hard it's such a
356
00:36:25.200 --> 00:36:31.040
slog right it took like about four years to to kind of come up with the book idea then actually
357
00:36:31.040 --> 00:36:37.600
put it on the shelf and I think you have to edit it really like emailing you every quarter like hey
358
00:36:37.600 --> 00:36:46.160
oh that wasn't good that wasn't the issue it's a long laborious process and I think my mantra
359
00:36:46.160 --> 00:36:51.280
in that was if there is one person that I reach through this work right and through this piece
360
00:36:51.280 --> 00:36:57.920
it will have been worth it and I say I say that in the same way that showing up for your team or
361
00:36:57.920 --> 00:37:02.480
showing up for things like this or anything that gets you a little out of your comfort zone if
362
00:37:02.480 --> 00:37:08.320
you can just focus on that one person right who will benefit it may not be a smash success you know
363
00:37:08.320 --> 00:37:13.360
reaching millions of subscribers or whatever your end goal is but if you can reach that one person
364
00:37:13.360 --> 00:37:20.160
to me that holds a lot of value so that's what I try to anchor to so this is the exit interview
365
00:37:20.160 --> 00:37:28.480
and so I would like to ask you at what point is a culture no longer maybe fitting for a person
366
00:37:28.480 --> 00:37:38.320
where they need to consider an exit I think a good question to ask is am I delivering value
367
00:37:38.400 --> 00:37:45.360
and am I being valued and if your answer to either one of those is no it's probably time to move on
368
00:37:46.240 --> 00:37:52.640
the other thing to consider is what's the opportunity cost of staying and I think a lot of times
369
00:37:52.640 --> 00:37:58.800
we overlook that we think oh well if I move on it it could be worse sure but what are you missing out
370
00:37:58.800 --> 00:38:05.120
on where are your talents not being applied where you're really needed somewhere else so giving that
371
00:38:05.120 --> 00:38:12.000
a good thoughtful question is worth it and then how do you scope out let's say the answer is
372
00:38:12.000 --> 00:38:19.520
I need to look elsewhere how do you scope out a company knowing or trying to find out that they do
373
00:38:19.520 --> 00:38:26.080
embrace creativity in their culture and it's not just performative yeah I think asking the tough
374
00:38:26.080 --> 00:38:32.320
questions around hey how much is your team failed and what did you learn from it oh that's a great
375
00:38:32.320 --> 00:38:44.880
question that's a great question because I think we like we never we like we can be revealed
376
00:38:44.880 --> 00:38:56.480
in that prompt because look we're we're not all perfect I know the other but I think that
377
00:38:56.560 --> 00:39:01.760
that really demonstrates whether a company is open to learning and cultivating that learning
378
00:39:01.760 --> 00:39:09.520
and experimentation and risk taking versus really needing someone to just perform a certain task
379
00:39:09.520 --> 00:39:15.840
and to me that's not highly rewarding or creative yeah what's another question that you think
380
00:39:15.840 --> 00:39:21.600
would be helpful to ascertain whatever like work culture creativity level like if you were
381
00:39:21.600 --> 00:39:25.920
interviewing for a job like what what are the kind of things would you recommend that you probe
382
00:39:25.920 --> 00:39:33.760
for and ask for yeah I always like to know how connected to the values the leaders are and so
383
00:39:33.760 --> 00:39:41.360
asking a question around I see that let's see ownership is one of your core values what does good
384
00:39:41.360 --> 00:39:47.600
look like in terms of ownership how is this actually lived in practice and if you get them to share
385
00:39:47.600 --> 00:39:53.600
stories really fluently and consistently then they've probably put in the work in terms of defining
386
00:39:53.600 --> 00:39:59.520
what good looks like a lot of times those are just words on the wall on a coffee mug just you know
387
00:39:59.520 --> 00:40:04.160
platitudes right they might be nice words but they're not really lived and so I like to press your
388
00:40:04.160 --> 00:40:09.680
test against what does it look like an action right I want to talk about the landscape a little bit
389
00:40:09.680 --> 00:40:17.600
and the shift in authenticity acceptance currently I think you know obviously during COVID
390
00:40:17.600 --> 00:40:22.880
and immediately following that there is a big push to come to work with your authentic self
391
00:40:23.520 --> 00:40:31.280
and be open and for companies to embrace belonging and inclusion we're seeing a shift in that now
392
00:40:31.280 --> 00:40:37.680
with the current environment less accepted more companies you know pushing it aside or
393
00:40:37.680 --> 00:40:47.120
extinguishing it completely and so I would like to know in if you're trying to encourage creativity in
394
00:40:47.120 --> 00:40:55.600
order to in order to produce more problem solving and innovation for a company how do you do that
395
00:40:56.880 --> 00:41:03.440
do you still embrace authenticity or if your if your company is now shying away from that
396
00:41:04.320 --> 00:41:12.480
what is the balance in this environment yeah authenticity is such a personalized experience
397
00:41:12.480 --> 00:41:17.280
and I think someone might be deeply offensive and say I'm just being authentic that's just how
398
00:41:17.280 --> 00:41:22.720
I feel and we don't want to go there right you got to show up as respectful you've got to show up
399
00:41:22.720 --> 00:41:28.640
as caring about the company and your colleagues right I mean I think there are some table stakes
400
00:41:28.640 --> 00:41:34.320
there and so I think authenticity can almost be weaponized in a way where people kind of contorted
401
00:41:34.320 --> 00:41:39.600
into I was just being my authentic self even though they're being deeply rude you know or just
402
00:41:39.600 --> 00:41:46.720
not authentic self is right not for the standards of expectations and so I think getting clear
403
00:41:46.720 --> 00:41:51.680
on what we mean by authenticity is kind of the first step but I think you're right I think there
404
00:41:51.680 --> 00:41:58.880
is a shift probably because there's some fear out in the market around job security around
405
00:41:59.840 --> 00:42:05.040
is AI going to take over everyone's job I mean that that fear exists and we need to name it we need
406
00:42:05.040 --> 00:42:12.560
to put it in its place and assure people that there is a place for you but these are our expectations
407
00:42:12.560 --> 00:42:19.520
and so I think all leaders need to really think deeply about what kind of environment they want to
408
00:42:19.520 --> 00:42:27.760
foster what kind of sense of belonging what does that mean in our world in our team specifically
409
00:42:27.760 --> 00:42:33.760
and and hopefully shape that so that people can be real with each other while also meeting
410
00:42:33.760 --> 00:42:40.480
those performance expectations it's got to be both right you mentioned AI where does creativity
411
00:42:40.560 --> 00:42:49.440
fit in with AI I read a headline that creativity is the new productivity and I think
412
00:42:50.240 --> 00:42:59.520
my hope is that as we start to use AI to its best potential meaning it's not just creating
413
00:42:59.520 --> 00:43:04.880
work-slop it's not creating work that it kind of doesn't mean anything it's gobbling
414
00:43:04.880 --> 00:43:09.600
book and creates more work for people which is the opposite direction we want to go in but when
415
00:43:09.600 --> 00:43:16.320
it's thoughtfully applied it will create more space and time in people's schedules and that's
416
00:43:16.320 --> 00:43:23.360
where the creativity slots in my hope is that we can lean into our humanity more by the application
417
00:43:23.360 --> 00:43:29.760
of technology that takes on routine tasks that don't require human creativity right so that's
418
00:43:29.840 --> 00:43:36.080
my vision for the best use of AI tools I agree with that we've had a conversation before
419
00:43:36.080 --> 00:43:42.080
where I ask Keisha the question like we've been so conditioned to glamorize and be possessive
420
00:43:42.080 --> 00:43:50.160
over this work culture and with AI like what if it turns out that AI does all the work
421
00:43:50.320 --> 00:43:55.600
and we just live in it like I'm not mad about it I'm not
422
00:43:55.600 --> 00:44:02.080
right it's like that's how listen if that's how it works if I get to kind of show up and just be
423
00:44:02.080 --> 00:44:09.360
create like I'll be painting it work yeah this is great and all you do is idea Jen right I mean
424
00:44:09.360 --> 00:44:15.360
yeah that's the the question is is is that or once someone once there's another entity
425
00:44:15.360 --> 00:44:20.480
quote-unquote doing the work what's then the relationship with labor but I think there are places
426
00:44:20.480 --> 00:44:26.320
where it's going to be great and super innovative and like like really transform certain businesses
427
00:44:26.320 --> 00:44:31.200
in a really productive way yeah and I think they're going to be other areas and arenas I mean
428
00:44:31.200 --> 00:44:37.120
obviously working creatively and dealing with writers who are just getting eviscerated yeah um
429
00:44:37.120 --> 00:44:44.160
and work that's been created is kind of just being co-opted um and and muddied you know there's
430
00:44:44.160 --> 00:44:50.400
like the race to the middle um part that I'm not super crazy about so yeah what does that mean
431
00:44:51.280 --> 00:44:57.840
well AI is yeah media I mean like AI is mid you know I mean at least right now from a right
432
00:44:57.840 --> 00:45:06.320
example no shade chat GPC um don't don't talk to me um but you know like when you when you you
433
00:45:06.320 --> 00:45:11.200
know you read things everything is just kind of like you know the the point of writing is to
434
00:45:11.200 --> 00:45:16.720
sometimes have a very sharp perspective to have bright you know you read Tony Morrison or you
435
00:45:16.720 --> 00:45:24.160
know you read people who use words in a very specific way not the right way even necessarily but in a
436
00:45:24.160 --> 00:45:32.000
very specific way where language becomes very evocative and how things are said and how things
437
00:45:32.000 --> 00:45:39.600
are positioned is meant to kind of great a guest yeah and AI is meant to be smooth and um we all
438
00:45:39.600 --> 00:45:45.520
like it's an LL right it's kind of gathering what's been done before and regurgitating it in a
439
00:45:45.520 --> 00:45:51.520
nice clean polished way but it's same that's yeah yeah yeah that's what it is same syrup of writing
440
00:45:51.520 --> 00:45:56.480
you know like it's you know vanilla it's vanilla it's effective it gets right in there
441
00:45:56.480 --> 00:46:04.480
once you're done but yeah that's that's what I mean it gets a little like like same there's a
442
00:46:04.480 --> 00:46:10.880
same this yes to everything I also think the challenge for leaders who are experimenting with AI
443
00:46:10.880 --> 00:46:17.120
now you know the leaders that I see do this really well are stepping back and really evaluating
444
00:46:17.120 --> 00:46:21.680
what is the problem that we're solving right let's just not throw a bunch of AI tools at it
445
00:46:21.920 --> 00:46:27.520
and say that we're working with AI let's really think deeply about the problem and then apply
446
00:46:27.520 --> 00:46:34.160
the right tool to solve that problem and I think that's the step that I see is often missing right
447
00:46:34.160 --> 00:46:45.680
right I agree with that we are in the holiday at the same yay yay
448
00:46:46.240 --> 00:46:53.040
and so I would like your perspective we would like your perspective on we'd like to play a game
449
00:46:55.440 --> 00:47:03.360
we would like to know what are the yays and nays for showing up at your holiday party
450
00:47:04.000 --> 00:47:10.080
your corporate holiday party hey what are the yays and nays one let's start with the employer
451
00:47:10.240 --> 00:47:15.440
or the yays and nays of the employer to show that you really are embracing a healthy creative
452
00:47:15.440 --> 00:47:23.920
culture that's welcoming at a holiday party okay okay well I mean I think it's funny one of
453
00:47:24.560 --> 00:47:29.760
my most treasured moments when I was at the start-up was a big holiday bash that we did
454
00:47:30.320 --> 00:47:38.320
and we did a custom scavenger hunt around New York City where we all got into teams and we piled
455
00:47:38.320 --> 00:47:44.400
into limos and drove around the city and had to kind of act out skits and play games and solve
456
00:47:44.400 --> 00:47:50.960
riddles and there was something so creative about that way of celebrating together and it was highly
457
00:47:50.960 --> 00:47:57.040
inclusive everyone was in everyone felt a sense of belonging we had different teams it was competitive
458
00:47:57.040 --> 00:48:03.360
and it was so kind of emblematic of our culture at the time was we're building this thing together
459
00:48:03.360 --> 00:48:11.440
so that's a yay for me something that's that's curated and special right and tailored to your
460
00:48:11.440 --> 00:48:19.920
organization what's a nay what's a nay well I mean people celebrate in different ways and I think
461
00:48:20.960 --> 00:48:28.080
if you're creating an environment that's highly clicky maybe where people don't feel comfortable
462
00:48:28.080 --> 00:48:35.600
or safe where there be any sections yeah yeah we want to break down those barriers right so
463
00:48:35.600 --> 00:48:41.200
that would be a nay or the executives really just keeping to themselves and not connecting with
464
00:48:41.200 --> 00:48:46.880
others because it's such a beautiful opportunity to celebrate everyone's hard work and see everyone
465
00:48:46.880 --> 00:48:52.800
for who they are and to kind of break down those those false walls that we create flipping it over
466
00:48:52.880 --> 00:49:01.120
to the employee side yeah what are your what is a yay and a nay or showing up at your holiday party
467
00:49:01.120 --> 00:49:10.160
yeah I think yay is celebrating each other another party comes to mind where we all gave roast
468
00:49:10.160 --> 00:49:15.440
toasts to each other we picked names out of a hat in advance and then prepared these beautifully
469
00:49:16.320 --> 00:49:23.680
created crafted messages of appreciation some were a little bit either self deprecating or teasing
470
00:49:23.680 --> 00:49:28.960
and playful but it shows that we're not taking ourselves too seriously but also recognizing people
471
00:49:28.960 --> 00:49:37.040
for who they are and what they brought so that's a yay for me I think a yay is kind of over
472
00:49:37.040 --> 00:49:43.920
indulging and not making smart choices so always good to know your your policies before you go
473
00:49:44.000 --> 00:49:51.600
and plan accordingly you know use good judgment ten shot limit you think oh yeah this is a good
474
00:49:51.600 --> 00:49:56.560
question yeah this is a good question how many drinks is appropriate for a corporate holiday party
475
00:49:56.560 --> 00:50:02.400
well it's interesting because everyone handles alcohol so differently so I think first follow
476
00:50:02.400 --> 00:50:08.800
the policy you know if there is a drink cap be respectful of that and and also know yourself
477
00:50:08.800 --> 00:50:24.240
I've never seen one stated yeah well good to know good to know but I'm working in a table so
478
00:50:24.240 --> 00:50:35.520
there's I work it's hard to see where I'm like you know what y'all got it you know it's always
479
00:50:35.520 --> 00:50:46.000
the unexpected departments oh yeah legal and compliance I also I help to orchestrate a murder mystery
480
00:50:46.000 --> 00:50:51.840
for one client which was their holiday party and everyone dressed up that is kind of 20s guard
481
00:50:51.840 --> 00:50:58.320
oh yeah it was off the charts fun so I think you know there are ways to celebrate that don't
482
00:50:58.320 --> 00:51:08.160
need alcohol all the time that are super fun yeah and then just so no we've we've had photo booths
483
00:51:08.160 --> 00:51:19.440
in the past and those are always a hit I feel like the photo booths yeah I'd like to know is it
484
00:51:20.560 --> 00:51:25.600
a networking opportunity should you make it a network opportunity or should you actually be
485
00:51:25.600 --> 00:51:32.160
there to celebrate I say yes and to all of that I think it's all of the above check all the boxes
486
00:51:32.800 --> 00:51:39.600
and I think it's an opportunity for leaders in particular to maybe understand people's guards are
487
00:51:39.600 --> 00:51:45.200
down a little bit right kind of listen hey what's what what do you wish would change here yeah use
488
00:51:45.200 --> 00:51:53.440
that as an opportunity not as a spy but yeah as a really curious invested in the culture leader
489
00:51:53.440 --> 00:51:59.680
and I think it's an opportunity that should not be best would you encourage executives to make
490
00:51:59.680 --> 00:52:07.520
their rounds as opposed to typically the people make the rounds to them oh good question again it
491
00:52:07.520 --> 00:52:18.480
depends in the environment but I think I think it's powerful when when an executive really reaches out
492
00:52:18.560 --> 00:52:31.520
and tries to listen and not just be greeted yeah so I think that's probably if I had to choose
493
00:52:31.520 --> 00:52:36.320
yeah what I would recommend now I agree and I think the the executives who do that really stand
494
00:52:36.320 --> 00:52:42.720
out to people the people who are like not just me going with the SVPs and who are like oh let's
495
00:52:42.720 --> 00:52:47.680
talk to this pool of interns and let's talk to the assistance yeah and kind of be like what are
496
00:52:47.680 --> 00:52:52.320
your goals what are you interested in and like be do those people who do that and are genuinely
497
00:52:52.320 --> 00:52:59.120
curious yes about the people I think it says it indicates to people who work there that you're
498
00:52:59.120 --> 00:53:04.800
at a certain kind of company yes not all companies do that not all people do that it just
499
00:53:04.800 --> 00:53:13.280
helps people feel like oh someone cares someone's invested and it's not in who I am so it does
500
00:53:13.280 --> 00:53:18.160
make a big difference I think to your point when executives can do if you're looking to get so
501
00:53:18.160 --> 00:53:22.960
holiday parties at the end of the year yeah and then there's promotion time okay so if you're
502
00:53:22.960 --> 00:53:30.000
looking to get to that next level your manager ahead of a department VP trying to get to SVP
503
00:53:30.000 --> 00:53:37.840
or above or trying to make it on the exact team do you use the holiday party as an opportune
504
00:53:37.920 --> 00:53:46.640
moment to try and lobby your way in there or is it inappropriate I would find it a bit off-putting
505
00:53:46.640 --> 00:53:53.520
I think to to be gunning for promotion in that kind of setting but I do think it's a forum and an
506
00:53:53.520 --> 00:53:59.120
opportunity to demonstrate leadership and again going back to the celebrating of all people and
507
00:53:59.120 --> 00:54:04.960
team members contributions if you're at that level you should be really showcasing the accomplishments of
508
00:54:04.960 --> 00:54:11.680
your team members and and celebrating and helping them shine so if anything I think that's
509
00:54:12.560 --> 00:54:17.760
that's the move to be made is how do I really shine a light on their contributions on the impact
510
00:54:17.760 --> 00:54:23.600
that our team has made not me as the leader but of these great people that I helped shepherd through
511
00:54:23.600 --> 00:54:31.920
this this year yeah yeah what would you say now let's talk about it the elephant in the room
512
00:54:31.920 --> 00:54:37.200
always when you're going to the holiday party and there are colleagues that you don't particularly
513
00:54:37.200 --> 00:54:42.800
like on the day-to-day do you interact with them at the holiday party or do you avoid them no
514
00:54:45.680 --> 00:54:53.280
super even a classy yeah you know I think gosh if you can
515
00:54:54.000 --> 00:54:59.760
settle that stuff aside for one night I think that's the the high road we all try to take the high
516
00:54:59.760 --> 00:55:08.160
road and I know egos get involved and there are hurt feelings that are real hurt feelings but I
517
00:55:08.160 --> 00:55:16.080
do think that's a chance to just set it aside enjoy the spirit of the holidays and let bygones be
518
00:55:16.080 --> 00:55:24.320
bygones that's that would be my advice and at what point so if you're an employee on the fence
519
00:55:24.400 --> 00:55:30.560
about do you stay or do you go and your views coming up your contemplating and exit
520
00:55:31.680 --> 00:55:36.240
you're at the holiday party what are you looking for to help you make a decision
521
00:55:40.240 --> 00:55:46.080
I think if if there are certain behaviors that are extremely grating to you
522
00:55:46.960 --> 00:55:54.720
um things like the clickiness or the hierarchy or the conflict or you know whatever's brewing for you
523
00:55:54.720 --> 00:56:01.440
that's maybe driving your decision to consider leaving just taking inventory and sometimes that can
524
00:56:01.440 --> 00:56:08.800
be really revealing um you might surprise yourself it might not be as bad as you think and there
525
00:56:08.800 --> 00:56:14.400
might be some mending offenses that convince you that hey maybe I will stick it out maybe this
526
00:56:14.400 --> 00:56:22.400
can be repaired but I think those moments of social connection can either reveal that you're on
527
00:56:22.400 --> 00:56:28.320
the right track to exit or no this is a place that I am still adding value and being valued
528
00:56:29.280 --> 00:56:37.360
well and something we like to ask all of our guests here on the exit interview is to let us know like
529
00:56:37.360 --> 00:56:42.960
what what is your what is your definition of success how do you define success and has that
530
00:56:43.520 --> 00:56:49.840
has your current definition evolved over your career is it different now than how it was before
531
00:56:49.840 --> 00:56:58.000
yeah such a great question and I love the question success to me is really about doing meaningful
532
00:56:58.640 --> 00:57:06.000
purposeful fulfilling work with people that inspire me that is work that's aligned to my values
533
00:57:06.560 --> 00:57:12.880
and that I get to do on my own terms that to me is kind of oh yeah everywhere star right that's a
534
00:57:12.880 --> 00:57:21.600
north star and I would say now in my current time and place it's much more about internal
535
00:57:21.600 --> 00:57:29.040
rewards versus the external validators of a title or a salary or you know number of followers
536
00:57:29.040 --> 00:57:34.720
and now it's much more about is this feeling meaningful to me and am I continuing to learn
537
00:57:34.720 --> 00:57:41.440
and stretch myself and and that to me is what drives successful outcome would you say it was more
538
00:57:41.440 --> 00:57:50.080
externally based before oh sure yeah yeah kind of being measured by what others think of you or
539
00:57:50.080 --> 00:57:56.320
where you should be versus really is this fulfilling for me and it's such an individual question
540
00:57:56.960 --> 00:58:02.320
and I think we all need to ask it at some point in our lives if we're lucky enough to do that
541
00:58:02.960 --> 00:58:10.800
amazing well thank you so much and for being with us here today I loved like I was so excited
542
00:58:10.800 --> 00:58:17.920
for this conversation because I really think again creativity leadership work culture
543
00:58:17.920 --> 00:58:23.840
all go super super hand in hand and I love sort of destigmatizing all of those things
544
00:58:23.840 --> 00:58:30.960
yeah taking the binary away yeah from both of those dynamics and I'm so happy for you in your work
545
00:58:30.960 --> 00:58:35.920
thank you for the conversation and for helping us encouraging us to be more creative in our
546
00:58:35.920 --> 00:58:41.840
leadership and reminding us that the data proves that it's actually worthwhile for all of us to do so
547
00:58:41.840 --> 00:58:47.280
so thank you for joining us yes thank you and thank you so much for being here thanks for having me
548
00:58:47.280 --> 00:58:54.080
this is the blast yay if you're interested in purchasing or reading born to create then look
549
00:58:54.080 --> 00:58:59.680
in the description below if you like this episode please like comment and subscribe so we can
550
00:58:59.680 --> 00:59:05.040
continue to provide this type of content in these type of wonderful guests to you thank you thanks
551
00:59:05.040 --> 00:59:13.920
everybody