WEBVTT
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For people outside the industry, they they would never know, you know, much about an elevator traveling cable, right?
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But that's that's really what sends all the signals.
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It's uh critical to the operation of your your elevator, right?
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Yeah, we consider the elevator traveling cable is more or less the umbilical umbilical cord for the moving elevator.
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So any signal or data transmission, electricity, anything going to the cars going through that cable.
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I was able to work on the the first tower of terror for Disney.
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Right on.
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The challenge there was to design a cable for an elevator that's designed to crash.
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It had to withstand the robust erratic behavior of an elevator.
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That um normally if I had a call from somebody with erratic behavior like that, I would tell them maintenance the elevator is your problem.
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That's designed that way.
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Hello, and welcome to the Elevator Careers Podcast, sponsored by the Allred Group.
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I am your host, Matt Allred.
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Does your workforce need a list?
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At the Allred Group, we are committed to connecting your company with top talent that matches your needs.
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Give us a call at 404-890-0445.
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Today's guest is Dillard Green, a manufacturing and engineering expert with over four decades of experience supporting the elevator industry.
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Throughout his career, Dillard has worked at the intersection of manufacturing, engineering, code compliance, and innovation, helping develop solutions for everyday buildings and iconic projects like the Birch Khalifa and Disney's Tower of Tear.
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In this episode, we explore the role of elevator traveling cables and the lessons he's learned throughout his career.
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Dillard, welcome to the show.
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Hey Matt, thanks for having me.
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Looking forward to it.
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I appreciate it.
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Yeah.
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I've enjoyed our previous conversations and looking forward to this one.
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And you know, it's interesting.
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Uh you've spent four decades with one company, and uh that's that's a long time, especially by by today's standards.
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What has kept you motivated, curious, and engaged all those years?
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I think um just to be able to see the visibility of what I'm doing and how it affects service to the end user as well as um I'm working in manufacturing, so I'm very interested in seeing how products are made and kind of cradle grow cradle to grave opportunities for seeing uh product solutions being implemented and and helping people uh get solutions implemented.
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For sure.
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Yeah.
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Do you ever feel a little little bit of pride when you drive past a building and you go, hey, you know, our product is going up and down?
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Hopefully that's a common thing in the industry, but whenever you work on a particular project, um there's there's some satisfaction for sure and some uh realization that you put a little bit of effort of your efforts gone into a much bigger project.
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For sure, for sure.
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Yeah.
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When when you first entered the elevator industry, did you imagine this would become a lifelong career?
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Or was that more of a surprise as you kind of moved along?
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No, not really.
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I started out in education background as engineering with a focus on manufacturing.
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And I've always been intrigued how things are made, younger days, take things apart to see how they work.
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So I got into where I where I work here, we were wired cable manufacturer.
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So if I started out in manufacturing here, our sole customer base is the elevator contractor market.
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So at one point in my career I moved into a field engineering applications engineering position where I was interacting with the end user on job sites and uh helping with installation issues and and product understanding and solutions.
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And um that kind of put my other foot into the elevator industry, so I'm both in manufacturing and and the elevator space as a current supplier to the elevator contractor market, so it's been a good dichotomy, I guess, of uh best of both worlds.
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But no, I never uh considered elevator industry.
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In fact, the building where I work is one story and uh our city has very few elevators, but we do supply uh globally from here to the elevator.
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For sure.
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No, that's yeah, it's fascinating.
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Fascinating.
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And and obviously for people outside the industry, they they would know never know you know much about an elevator traveling cable, right?
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But that's that's really the what sends all the signals, right?
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It's it's uh critical to the operation of your your elevator, right?
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Yeah, we consider the elevator traveling cable is more or less the umbilical umbilical cord for the moving elevator.
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So any signal or data transmission, electricity, anything going to the car is going through that cable.
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So it's it's a lifeline.
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Uh it's one of many components in the elevator, but uh just like many others, it's critical to the operation of the car and it's successful uh travel.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Yeah, you you called the umbilical cord.
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I in my mind I saw an image of you know almost like the uh you know the spinal cord, right?
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It's like if it you know breaks anywhere along the way, you you're gonna have a paralyzed uh car or totally non-operational.
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So it uh it really is the central hub of all the communication.
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It's kind of a critical link in the entire system.
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Yeah.
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Yep.
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Certainly.
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Um so why why can't a building just use uh an ordinary like off-the-shelf cable instead of you know inside of their elevator?
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Like what makes a elevator cable as specialized as it is that maybe a lot of people wouldn't understand?
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It's a good question.
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I I remember when I first came to this factory and toured as a job interview, just realizing, you know, how how hard can it be, right?
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Make the cable, put some wires together.
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We all we all have experience with extension cords and back in the day, telephone cords, believe it or not.
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But uh not so much now, but um yeah, the the cable, I'm I'm involved in the design process uh as well, and a lot of the design attributes beyond the electrical characteristics.
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A lar large um important part is the mechanical attributes of the cable.
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It has to flex constantly uh as the elevator is moving and for for many years, um, which makes it unique to a lot of a lot of cables in in the in the marketplace.
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So there are design aspects to keep it where it'll flex continuously without any problems, and also it has to track in a very small space, in a vertical space of an element or hoist play.
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Uh it's very important that it stays where it's supposed to.
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So those are some of the some of the differences to standard run-of-the-mill cable.
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Yeah.
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I mean, uh and like you say, it's got to flex, it's got to move.
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Is there a kind of a standard lifetime that hey you gotta I mean I I've never heard people talk about that, but I'm just curious if like, you know, it's gonna wear out after however many uses or trips or what is that?
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That's a very good question.
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We we like we design the cables to we say run the lifetime of the elevator, and knowing that most elevators are at some point are modernized and the elevator may still be operational, but the workings of the controller and various electrical components may be replaced as technology changes.
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But that's typically 25 years, 30 years, and we all we also our our traveling cable has a lifetime warranty, which is indicative of some of that design and and manufacturing experience.
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So yeah, it lasts a long time, but um a lot of things are replaced in the meantime.
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Sometimes upgrades are necessary for technology change.
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For sure.
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And I and I hear people say that and I I've asked the question, right?
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I'm I'm uh ignorant enough to that I can ask the dumb questions like what at what point does it become a mod, right?
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I mean I hear people say mods and that and I've heard it said, well, that when you replace the controller, then it's a mod versus a you know a big repair.
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Does the traveling cable get replaced every time you do a mod essentially, or does it really depend?
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I think in most cases it probably does.
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I'm not an expert on that, but typically if you're replacing a controller, that the controller dictates primarily what's in the traveling cable, as well as the peripheral components on the car, cameras and card readers and things of that sort.
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So if you're replacing a controller, I would assume the traveling cable would be I would assume all the time, but I'm not 100% sure.
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We do service the modernization market, service market, as well as the OEM and new install.
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For sure.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Um so I mean, obviously you mentioned you worked, you know, design, manufacturing, field engineering, customer support.
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How has seeing every side of the business shaped how you solve problems today?
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Yeah, solving problems is something that um we we like to look at not just making cables, but we also sell a variety of other products, but manufacturing the cables is is a core product for us.
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But we like to look at it providing solutions to to the end customer, whether it's the product itself or how we deliver it or how we package it with other components.
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But seeing uh from being in different positions or different points of view, I think the common common thing I would think about is that people I like to think of our customers is we have internal customers and external.
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The internal would be within your organization, whoever you hand your work off to is your customer.
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And then the external would be the end user, the one that's paying for your service.
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And we've all in life, we're all customers, all consumers, and we we know what it's like to wait in the long line or have something that's not delivered when it's promised.
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And so we have to understand that.
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And I try to take those different viewpoints and dealing with helping customers solve problems, you know that they're maybe not the happiest day of their life, and you want to try to give them some reassurance, but you also have to be uh upfront and out and open with with what the options are and um just treat others as you want to be treated.
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Absolutely.
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Yeah, I mean you you told me a story once about um where technology existed, but the code hadn't caught up yet.
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And I'm curious how common is it for innovation to move faster than regulations and and a little bit more about that that uh process where you know, hey, this we know this is going to be coming into the code, but it's not here yet.
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And and how do you kind of marry up those two pieces of of building a product and you know getting it, getting it where it it needs to be as the code is updated?
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Yeah, that's that's a big lesson learned in in the industry, is um obviously everything we do is directed by various regulatory codes, but there's different layers of codes.
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And those of us in the elevator industry, of course, are very familiar with the ASME A17 codes for safety.
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Um there's also the National Electrical Code that is more of an umbrella over many, many uh products and services that are electrical.
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So an example that you're referring to is um the electrical code stipulates general requirements for different types of products, and and there is a section on elevator traveling cables and specifically under a flexible cable uh section.
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And that dictates uh and uh as an example, uh minimum conductor size.
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Uh what happened with with us is that as technology changed and Ethernet cables, category cables became a standard in building infrastructures, naturally there were requests to have those within the traveling cable to continue the circuitry to the elevator, so you have internet access or on the on the car.
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That category cable is based on a smaller conductor size than what the code allowed.
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So that was a challenge.
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Um the the electrical code specifically is updated every three years, and there's a process to appeal or to s petition for changes.
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Um and if that's not approved, then you you can do it again in three years.
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We've done that before to get the conductor size reduced, and initially were unsuccessful in that.
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And so we um still had demand for the category cable, so we we went another route within the code requirements and designed and manufactured an equivalent uh category 5e pair using a larger conductor.
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That solution works works quite well, but it requires an adapter to be able to get the larger conductor down to the smaller conductor connectors that are standard with Ethernet cable.
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So that's an example where we were held back by code to make something that was was listed and certified.
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The final iteration with that going back to the electrical code was um it was helped with we petitioned again as well as some other um elevator industry professionals also petitioned and we were able to get the the change in the 2023 code.
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And so that was that was good and fine, but then the questions were okay, it's in the code, where's my cable?
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And uh what it's not as clean as that.
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It obviously there's other other uh codes around and the for the manufacturer we're we have to have uh in our industry the UL has a specific requirement for flexible cables, specifically elevator traveling cables.
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And that's the code that tells the manufacturer the performance criteria, insulation thickness, material types, all those types of things.
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So once the electrical code is changed, then the regulatory agency has to come in, in this case UL, and update their requirements.
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And we interviewed with them and they interviewed other manufacturers as well to develop a change into the code to comply with the uh NEC.
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Gotcha.
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So long story short, we we were able to get a UL listing for a category six cable and a traveling cable after over a year and a half from the case.
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I was gonna ask, yeah, how long does that take?
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You know, I mean it feels a little cumbersome, you know, just as an outside alert outsider looking in.
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Like, in other words, I don't suppose elevators are being held up, but how how do you navigate, you know, hey, here's the code, the the product it sounds like can't be made and sold until it gets the stamp.
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So what what happens for that year and a half?
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How does that work?
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Well, you have the you know, from my standpoint, providing technical support and um answering customers' questions in that regard, the answer initially is it's not commercially available.
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We do have other alternatives.
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We we have use of optical fibers in the traveling cable, which can send you know huge amounts of data, although it requires a different termination and maybe some conversion equipment.
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So there is a solution there, a little bit of resistance to that.
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If it's if you're going from copper in the building, you'd have to purchase transmission equipment, which is added expense.
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Um as I mentioned, we also developed a kind of interim solution with the larger component uh category five E pairs.
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But it's it's kind of an evolution and and with codes, it's you know, regulatory is there's bureaucracy and red tape, but it's also a tough job.
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You the code committees have to go through who who knows how many petitions every time they get around and they have to prioritize those and choose what they feel is necessary.
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You know, of course, those of us on the manufacturing side, the industry side need to lobby harder, I guess.
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But um it's a natural part of the process, I think.
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Sure.
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I mean, everything's safe, yeah.
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Exactly, right?
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There's a reason there's codes, there's a reason there's that much oversight, and it makes makes a lot of sense and and it does really kind of highlight your team and you, you know, you the need to be creative, right?
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And the need to say, okay, this particular thing isn't maybe commercially available, but we can still send the data, it sounds like, right?
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We can still make something work and we know how to you know create adapters or whatever, you know, some some kind of termination hardware you talked about, right, that can uh make sure that the message is is getting through the cable until such a time as we can do what we really wanted to in the first place, which in that case may have been just a standard category five cable.
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Hey there, listeners, it's Matt, and I would love to know what you want to hear more of on the podcast.
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If you have a topic in mind or a guest you'd like to hear from, head over to elevatorcareers.net and drop a suggestion in the box, or you can email podcast at elevatorcareers.net.
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The link will also be in the description below.
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Thank you so much for being part of this conversation.
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Now back to the show.
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And then the interim, you know, I try to educate the customer as best as possible to understand the because it's frustrating.
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Uh and it's not just us, it's the any any any provider is held by those codes.
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So um we try to develop products to anticipate code changes, and obviously everything has to align with the code in the end.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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Well, and and there's different codes in different cities and different parts of the country, right?
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So you're probably again back to creativity, you know, probably thinking a whole lot about, well, you know, over here we use this because they're using that code, and over here we're using something else because they're using different code, and then you know, there may be a way to you know use some of those different solutions at at different times depending on who's changing the code and and then make it work ultimately for the for the riding public.
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So we do some collaboration internationally, or company is global, um, different codes in different countries.
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Um this particular product that the European code was allowing smaller conductor sizes before we were here.
00:17:02.799 --> 00:17:15.519
So we do have experience in in Europe with similar product that's we've offered for a number of years, and sometimes I'd get a screenshot from a website asking how come you can't why can't you sell me this?
00:17:15.839 --> 00:17:19.599
Well, I can, but it doesn't meet the US, you know, requirements.
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So if everything was harmonized, then you know everybody's lives would be a lot easier, I guess.
00:17:24.000 --> 00:17:25.599
But that's true in so many areas.
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Yeah, I I get it.
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Yeah.
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It's it's fascinating, you know, not being involved in those to to just kind of learn a little bit about, you know, it it is a little bit like a a legal process in a way, right?
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That it uh you know has to be reviewed and voted on, and and like you say, you there's an appeal process and all kinds of things to to get some changes and ultimately it works out.
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It just takes a little while to to get there.
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Yep.
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Very cool.
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And uh yeah, I mean we were obviously talking about how it can take months or or years sometimes before a new product actually reaches the market.
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Are there times I mean, in a way, you're you're kind of this is just my guess here, right?
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But you're you're kind of subject to what is approved, right?
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I mean, in other words, can you create and like develop new technology?
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Uh I mean, at some point they would have to approve it, right?
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And does that happen often that you're like, hey, this would work better?
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We're just gonna keep asking until that is allowed to come out.
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Yes.
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Um, some ex I guess uh innovation, anything we come up with that's different.
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And in our case, our products are listed by UL underwriters laboratories, use in the US and North America.
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Anything we do that's outside of the realm of that specification, uh, we can open a project with UL, and basically we would manufacture a product using, say, different materials or different components that are outside of the scope of the spec.
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Then we would submit them.
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Of course, we do our own testing, uh, make sure everything works.
00:18:54.240 --> 00:19:06.000
But UL would typically look at it and say, if if it can meet the performance criteria of our specification, then they would give us a um grant us the use of that additional material or whatever that's outside of the spec.
00:19:06.400 --> 00:19:12.319
So that that's done within within UL because the National Code, electrical code, is is much more general.
00:19:12.559 --> 00:19:15.119
They're not telling us what type of material to use.
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They just, you know, in the case I just described, it's just a conductor size limitation, which by the way I learned the conductor size was introduced in the code, I think, in 1956.
00:19:28.000 --> 00:19:28.400
Oh wow.
00:19:28.640 --> 00:19:33.599
As a reason because they were worried about the wires breaking if they're any smaller than 20 gauge.
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We've had a lot of innovation since and stranding techniques and things.
00:19:37.359 --> 00:19:48.720
And now there's much smaller wires used on robotic applications and things like that, so it it really sits easily in the traveling cable space, but it took till 2023 to change that from back then.
00:19:48.880 --> 00:19:58.319
But anyway, um there's so most of the changes we do are not outside of the electrical code, but rather outside the scope of of the UL manufacturers.
00:19:58.640 --> 00:19:59.279
Interesting application.
00:19:59.839 --> 00:20:25.119
That that is fascinating that they have a way to uh open up a kind of preemptively, uh proactively, whatever the right word is, uh, you know, create hey, we want to create this, and then they can kind of almost you know supervise or you know, whatever, to pre-test it in a way, right, so that it's it's gonna meet the the standard once it once it comes out, and then they can put their stamp on it and you're good to go, as long as it's I guess part of the bigger code.
00:20:25.440 --> 00:20:35.920
Yeah, and it and again, they're the regulatory agency is responsible to be sure it meets basic performance criteria, mainly safety from fire and shorts and things like that.
00:20:36.160 --> 00:20:46.000
If we can make a product that still meets those performance criteria, then not always, but many times we will get a get an approval to expand our listing to add different components.
00:20:46.319 --> 00:20:47.119
Yeah, yeah.
00:20:47.359 --> 00:20:54.480
There's been a lot of talk the last few years about the A17, I think it's.1, code and the the need for audiovisual.
00:20:54.640 --> 00:20:56.880
How much has that affected the work you do?
00:20:56.960 --> 00:21:02.000
Or I mean is it just a matter of throwing in an extra cable or has it has that been a significant change?
00:21:02.559 --> 00:21:10.880
I think the audiovisual requirement from in for emergency use, um, it certainly changes the components within the traveling cable.
00:21:10.960 --> 00:21:18.559
We have many different variations, and some are just different combinations of pairs and power conductors and the like.
00:21:18.799 --> 00:21:39.680
Um I you know we've seen an increase in in the communication requirement with with video, and I believe the you know the Cat 6A Ethernet cable would be a component that would be interesting for that application for sure, more so than you know, replacing coacts and and shielded pairs and things to give you higher performance and better quality picture.
00:21:40.319 --> 00:21:40.720
Right.
00:21:40.960 --> 00:21:41.599
Right.
00:21:41.839 --> 00:21:45.519
So um yeah, I mean it it does sound like there's been a lot of innovation.
00:21:45.680 --> 00:21:57.279
I just I know a lot of different suppliers and inventors that have you know created products that kind of work on that and obviously have to communicate through the through the umbilical cord of the traveling cable.
00:21:57.440 --> 00:21:58.720
So very cool.
00:21:58.880 --> 00:22:06.160
So tell me a little bit I was uh pretty intrigued when you told me you'd worked on the the may say it wrong, the Burj Khalifa, is that how that's pronounced?
00:22:06.240 --> 00:22:06.559
Yeah.
00:22:06.799 --> 00:22:08.400
And uh One World Trade.
00:22:08.559 --> 00:22:15.599
And what are some uh things that uh would need to be considered when designing cables for buildings like that?
00:22:16.000 --> 00:22:20.319
Well, for you mentioned the Burj Khalifa, of course, is the tallest building in the world.
00:22:21.039 --> 00:22:37.440
I had the privilege to work on that project um early on, um, which was a real highlight because many times with the traveling cable, you're they reach out to you when it's time to get the traveling cable after the building's you know already in construction and need the elevators to run in a couple of weeks.
00:22:37.599 --> 00:22:47.519
Uh in this case where I was actually able to be in on involved in the process before they started building the building, so it was probably four four years earlier than it when it was built.
00:22:47.599 --> 00:23:03.759
But anyway, in our first drawings we had access to, and of course I worked for the elevator company uh installing everything, but as a supplier, the first drawing I had uh reference to did not have the building height on it because it's gonna be the tallest building.
00:23:03.920 --> 00:23:10.720
I've what I've learned is it seems that any building that's being built to be the tallest, they they kind of keep that a secret a little bit.
00:23:11.680 --> 00:23:13.359
They don't want to tell their competitors.
00:23:13.839 --> 00:23:16.079
It's either a secret or they hadn't decided yet.
00:23:16.160 --> 00:23:16.640
I don't know.
00:23:16.880 --> 00:23:20.000
But um we were, you know, as as needed basis, I guess.
00:23:20.160 --> 00:23:27.920
Obviously that that was disclosed later because it's it's hard to design a traveling cable when you don't know at that length what the length's gonna be.
00:23:28.240 --> 00:23:37.039
So most most elevators uh you design cables that have suspended lengths, they're plenty long for just about all the elevators.
00:23:37.119 --> 00:23:43.359
Um but when you get into a building of that height, you have to reconsider you know, just the physical strength of the cable.
00:23:43.519 --> 00:23:46.720
Uh can it hold up and you you don't want it to break or anything.
00:23:47.279 --> 00:23:52.880
So that was one aspect, but the biggest thing with that job was that um there were a lot of weight requirements.
00:23:53.200 --> 00:24:01.279
As you imagine just the restriction of that height, some of the things that had to be resolved um just to be able to do that type of elevator.
00:24:01.759 --> 00:24:04.240
Things like hoist ropes, comp ropes.
00:24:04.720 --> 00:24:10.559
Very heavy when they're that long, you know, do an observation car to the top of a building like that.
00:24:11.039 --> 00:24:21.519
So there were some different technologies used on those things, and and we had as a traveling cable supplier, we had a maximum weight load requirement for the cables.
00:24:21.759 --> 00:24:27.519
Um generally we design a cable and then don't pay a lot of attention to the weight, it's just an output of the design.
00:24:27.759 --> 00:24:35.119
In this case, we had to really scrutinize the design and and make everything compacted together as best as possible.
00:24:35.279 --> 00:24:40.400
And we also made use of a lot of optical fibers, which are much lighter than the copper, obviously.
00:24:40.559 --> 00:24:42.559
So that that helped get our weight down.
00:24:42.640 --> 00:24:48.079
But they also wanted an incredible number of components within the cables on the observation cars.
00:24:48.559 --> 00:25:02.160
And I think with those types of buildings, you always have a tourist element of some type of observation car that has lots of video screens and a very entertaining ride to the top, so that requires a lot of components that most elevators wouldn't have as well.
00:25:02.400 --> 00:25:02.720
Yeah.
00:25:03.839 --> 00:25:04.640
That's fascinating.
00:25:04.720 --> 00:25:06.480
I mean, you mentioned a couple things that caught my attention.
00:25:06.640 --> 00:25:09.200
One is just that the rope itself won't break, right?
00:25:09.279 --> 00:25:11.519
You stretch it up, what is it, 1200 feet or something?
00:25:11.599 --> 00:25:12.720
I forget how tall that build is.
00:25:14.799 --> 00:25:16.319
It's over 150 floors.
00:25:16.400 --> 00:25:17.759
I should have rewritten a little bit.
00:25:19.279 --> 00:25:28.240
So so the the the question of, hey, can we make one long enough that it's not so heavy that it won't just snap like spaghetti when we stretch it out?
00:25:28.559 --> 00:25:30.640
I mean, that's that's significant.
00:25:30.799 --> 00:25:34.319
And then the other one, you know, just that it had to have all these weight considerations.
00:25:34.480 --> 00:25:39.279
I mean, you even told me that the cab itself was made from like ultralight aluminum.
00:25:39.519 --> 00:25:49.599
You know, it's so obviously it's it feels like to me they're they're maybe approaching the the maximum capacity of elevator technology uh or maximum height.
00:25:50.000 --> 00:26:00.720
Yeah, I I think my understanding on that project was really breaking some barriers of maximum heights, but then you know, re I guess resetting the bar or what maximum is.
00:26:00.880 --> 00:26:08.799
But other projects in the works that are even taller that at least in theory can be done, but not with a traditional elevator um components.
00:26:08.880 --> 00:26:11.680
Everything has to be reviewed and considered.
00:26:11.839 --> 00:26:16.160
Because ultimately, if the if there's too much weight on the car, there's no capacity for passengers.
00:26:16.240 --> 00:26:17.759
So you have to make money.
00:26:18.000 --> 00:26:19.200
One at a time, please.
00:26:20.160 --> 00:26:25.759
So um, but yeah, that's so that that was a unique challenge, but it was uh rewarding to be part of that.
00:26:26.000 --> 00:26:26.559
Absolutely.
00:26:26.720 --> 00:26:34.480
See this now that sounds like a lot of fun and and uh yeah, just the the engineering alone is has got to be, like I say, rewarding and and memorable.
00:26:34.640 --> 00:26:36.799
And um, yeah, no, that's fascinating.
00:26:36.960 --> 00:26:39.119
So a couple questions for you before we end.
00:26:39.200 --> 00:26:44.960
And one is you know, looking back in your career, what project or accomplishment makes you the most proud and why?
00:26:45.279 --> 00:26:53.759
Well, the first one comes to mind is the Burge Khalifa, just because it is the tallest building in the world, but uh been involved in some other unique projects.
00:26:53.839 --> 00:27:05.359
Um one that comes to mind is it's kind of obscure for most people don't think about it, but I was able to work on the the first um Tower of Terror for Disney.
00:27:05.519 --> 00:27:06.000
Right on.
00:27:06.160 --> 00:27:06.480
I love it.
00:27:07.200 --> 00:27:11.759
The challenge there was to design a cable for an elevator that's designed to crash.
00:27:11.920 --> 00:27:15.039
It's designed the elevator is designed to fail, it has a free fall element.
00:27:15.359 --> 00:27:21.519
Yeah, and and I didn't, I mean, I rode that 30 years ago with some friends in college or whatever.
00:27:21.680 --> 00:27:24.000
But um I think we went through up 15 times.
00:27:24.079 --> 00:27:26.720
It wasn't busy that day and just over and over and over.
00:27:26.960 --> 00:27:35.279
So reflecting on that, I mean, obviously, probably not your area of expertise, but it it's designed to fall and to go back up and fall, right?
00:27:35.440 --> 00:27:40.880
So there's uh I really didn't think about it at the time other than it was just a a fun ride.
00:27:41.039 --> 00:27:52.000
But yeah, and I I tried to um get a trip there to help observe installation or assist or whatever, but Disney has all their own, as you might can imagine, their own imagineering department.
00:27:52.079 --> 00:27:57.599
They do all their own install and maintenance and basically deliver product to their gate and they take it from there.
00:27:57.759 --> 00:28:03.839
But it had to withstand the robust, you know, erratic behavior of an elevator.
00:28:04.000 --> 00:28:11.359
That um normally if I had a call from somebody with erratic behavior like that, I would tell them, Well, you have to, you know, maintenance your elevator is your problem.
00:28:11.440 --> 00:28:14.240
It's not that's not cable, but that's designed that way.
00:28:14.400 --> 00:28:15.680
So so that was unique one.
00:28:15.759 --> 00:28:21.599
It was kind of fun, and that's as you said, um that was a long time ago, evidently, if you were there 30 years ago.
00:28:21.759 --> 00:28:22.720
Um I yeah.
00:28:23.039 --> 00:28:24.000
And it's probably right.
00:28:24.079 --> 00:28:34.400
It's it's you know, I've been doing this for a little while, but um and we've you know, we've had that was the first one was in Orlando, and then of course there's others not thinking Disney Euro and places like that.
00:28:34.880 --> 00:28:35.200
Yeah.
00:28:35.359 --> 00:28:38.480
So they wouldn't give you uh a backstage pass to to see it.
00:28:38.799 --> 00:28:43.039
They they they said no, just come buy a ticket and you can ride it all you want, but exactly.
00:28:43.119 --> 00:28:43.759
Yeah.
00:28:44.319 --> 00:28:45.279
Like everybody else.
00:28:45.359 --> 00:28:46.240
So yeah, yeah.
00:28:46.319 --> 00:28:50.799
So last question I have for you, what advice would you give to somebody who's just starting out, right?
00:28:50.880 --> 00:28:53.279
Maybe it was young Dillard just coming out of college.
00:28:53.440 --> 00:28:55.039
What would you what would you say to them?
00:28:55.440 --> 00:29:01.039
One, take advantage of every opportunity that's afforded you if you're working for a company, they offer training, take that.
00:29:01.200 --> 00:29:04.079
Um and really do well with people.
00:29:04.240 --> 00:29:34.400
I think coming from a technology background, there's there's not always a people element there, but I think whatever role you have, working with people makes things a lot better, dealing with the customer, obviously, but even working within your organization, um, understanding that we all have similar needs, but maybe approach them a different way, and try to collaborate with others so that different you know, different viewpoints can often the synergy can give uh a larger sum than what individually would provide.
00:29:34.799 --> 00:29:35.359
So true.
00:29:35.440 --> 00:29:36.319
Yeah, well said.
00:29:36.559 --> 00:29:38.160
Dillard, thank you for being with me today.
00:29:38.240 --> 00:29:41.119
I I've enjoyed it and uh appreciate you being on the show.
00:29:41.440 --> 00:29:42.160
Okay, Matt.
00:29:42.240 --> 00:29:43.519
I appreciate the opportunity.
00:29:43.759 --> 00:29:44.480
Yes, sir.
00:29:44.720 --> 00:29:45.519
Take care.
00:29:45.839 --> 00:29:52.640
Thank you for listening to the Elevator Careers Podcast, sponsored by the Allred Group, a leader in elevator industry recruiting.
00:29:52.799 --> 00:30:00.319
Please visit our YouTube channel at Elevator Careers or check us out online at elevatorcareers.net.
00:30:00.480 --> 00:30:01.839
Please like and subscribe.
00:30:01.920 --> 00:30:04.079
And until next time, stay safe.
00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:04.959
For people outside the industry, they they would never know, you know, much about an elevator traveling cable, right?
00:00:05.040 --> 00:00:07.120
But that's that's really what sends all the signals.
00:00:07.200 --> 00:00:10.400
It's uh critical to the operation of your your elevator, right?
00:00:10.720 --> 00:00:16.879
Yeah, we consider the elevator traveling cable is more or less the umbilical umbilical cord for the moving elevator.
00:00:16.960 --> 00:00:22.559
So any signal or data transmission, electricity, anything going to the cars going through that cable.
00:00:22.640 --> 00:00:26.320
I was able to work on the the first tower of terror for Disney.
00:00:26.480 --> 00:00:26.800
Right on.
00:00:28.160 --> 00:00:32.000
The challenge there was to design a cable for an elevator that's designed to crash.
00:00:32.159 --> 00:00:35.840
It had to withstand the robust erratic behavior of an elevator.
00:00:36.000 --> 00:00:42.000
That um normally if I had a call from somebody with erratic behavior like that, I would tell them maintenance the elevator is your problem.
00:00:43.920 --> 00:00:45.039
That's designed that way.
00:00:45.679 --> 00:00:51.119
Hello, and welcome to the Elevator Careers Podcast, sponsored by the Allred Group.
00:00:51.280 --> 00:00:53.119
I am your host, Matt Allred.
00:00:53.520 --> 00:00:55.039
Does your workforce need a list?
00:00:55.359 --> 00:01:00.799
At the Allred Group, we are committed to connecting your company with top talent that matches your needs.
00:01:01.039 --> 00:01:06.079
Give us a call at 404-890-0445.
00:01:06.959 --> 00:01:14.000
Today's guest is Dillard Green, a manufacturing and engineering expert with over four decades of experience supporting the elevator industry.
00:01:14.159 --> 00:01:26.000
Throughout his career, Dillard has worked at the intersection of manufacturing, engineering, code compliance, and innovation, helping develop solutions for everyday buildings and iconic projects like the Birch Khalifa and Disney's Tower of Tear.
00:01:26.159 --> 00:01:31.280
In this episode, we explore the role of elevator traveling cables and the lessons he's learned throughout his career.
00:01:31.599 --> 00:01:33.120
Dillard, welcome to the show.
00:01:33.519 --> 00:01:35.040
Hey Matt, thanks for having me.
00:01:35.359 --> 00:01:36.239
Looking forward to it.
00:01:36.640 --> 00:01:37.439
I appreciate it.
00:01:37.519 --> 00:01:37.680
Yeah.
00:01:38.079 --> 00:01:42.400
I've enjoyed our previous conversations and looking forward to this one.
00:01:42.480 --> 00:01:43.840
And you know, it's interesting.
00:01:43.920 --> 00:01:50.079
Uh you've spent four decades with one company, and uh that's that's a long time, especially by by today's standards.
00:01:50.239 --> 00:01:54.239
What has kept you motivated, curious, and engaged all those years?
00:01:54.640 --> 00:02:19.039
I think um just to be able to see the visibility of what I'm doing and how it affects service to the end user as well as um I'm working in manufacturing, so I'm very interested in seeing how products are made and kind of cradle grow cradle to grave opportunities for seeing uh product solutions being implemented and and helping people uh get solutions implemented.
00:02:19.360 --> 00:02:19.680
For sure.
00:02:19.919 --> 00:02:20.159
Yeah.
00:02:20.400 --> 00:02:26.560
Do you ever feel a little little bit of pride when you drive past a building and you go, hey, you know, our product is going up and down?
00:02:27.039 --> 00:02:41.520
Hopefully that's a common thing in the industry, but whenever you work on a particular project, um there's there's some satisfaction for sure and some uh realization that you put a little bit of effort of your efforts gone into a much bigger project.
00:02:41.759 --> 00:02:42.479
For sure, for sure.
00:02:44.319 --> 00:02:44.800
Yeah.
00:02:45.120 --> 00:02:50.479
When when you first entered the elevator industry, did you imagine this would become a lifelong career?
00:02:50.719 --> 00:02:53.919
Or was that more of a surprise as you kind of moved along?
00:02:54.240 --> 00:02:54.960
No, not really.
00:02:55.199 --> 00:02:59.840
I started out in education background as engineering with a focus on manufacturing.
00:03:00.319 --> 00:03:06.000
And I've always been intrigued how things are made, younger days, take things apart to see how they work.
00:03:06.159 --> 00:03:10.719
So I got into where I where I work here, we were wired cable manufacturer.
00:03:10.800 --> 00:03:16.800
So if I started out in manufacturing here, our sole customer base is the elevator contractor market.
00:03:17.280 --> 00:03:30.960
So at one point in my career I moved into a field engineering applications engineering position where I was interacting with the end user on job sites and uh helping with installation issues and and product understanding and solutions.
00:03:31.120 --> 00:03:44.960
And um that kind of put my other foot into the elevator industry, so I'm both in manufacturing and and the elevator space as a current supplier to the elevator contractor market, so it's been a good dichotomy, I guess, of uh best of both worlds.
00:03:45.039 --> 00:03:48.240
But no, I never uh considered elevator industry.
00:03:48.319 --> 00:03:56.719
In fact, the building where I work is one story and uh our city has very few elevators, but we do supply uh globally from here to the elevator.
00:03:56.960 --> 00:03:57.199
For sure.
00:03:57.439 --> 00:03:58.719
No, that's yeah, it's fascinating.
00:03:58.879 --> 00:03:59.280
Fascinating.
00:03:59.360 --> 00:04:06.319
And and obviously for people outside the industry, they they would know never know you know much about an elevator traveling cable, right?
00:04:06.400 --> 00:04:08.960
But that's that's really the what sends all the signals, right?
00:04:09.039 --> 00:04:12.639
It's it's uh critical to the operation of your your elevator, right?
00:04:12.960 --> 00:04:19.360
Yeah, we consider the elevator traveling cable is more or less the umbilical umbilical cord for the moving elevator.
00:04:19.439 --> 00:04:25.279
So any signal or data transmission, electricity, anything going to the car is going through that cable.
00:04:25.519 --> 00:04:26.720
So it's it's a lifeline.
00:04:26.800 --> 00:04:34.399
Uh it's one of many components in the elevator, but uh just like many others, it's critical to the operation of the car and it's successful uh travel.
00:04:34.720 --> 00:04:34.959
Yeah, yeah.
00:04:35.120 --> 00:04:36.720
Yeah, you you called the umbilical cord.
00:04:36.800 --> 00:04:41.040
I in my mind I saw an image of you know almost like the uh you know the spinal cord, right?
00:04:41.120 --> 00:04:49.839
It's like if it you know breaks anywhere along the way, you you're gonna have a paralyzed uh car or totally non-operational.
00:04:50.079 --> 00:04:54.079
So it uh it really is the central hub of all the communication.
00:04:54.560 --> 00:04:57.519
It's kind of a critical link in the entire system.
00:04:58.319 --> 00:04:58.720
Yeah.
00:04:58.879 --> 00:04:59.279
Yep.
00:04:59.519 --> 00:04:59.920
Certainly.
00:05:00.160 --> 00:05:07.519
Um so why why can't a building just use uh an ordinary like off-the-shelf cable instead of you know inside of their elevator?
00:05:07.680 --> 00:05:13.759
Like what makes a elevator cable as specialized as it is that maybe a lot of people wouldn't understand?
00:05:14.160 --> 00:05:14.959
It's a good question.
00:05:15.040 --> 00:05:23.519
I I remember when I first came to this factory and toured as a job interview, just realizing, you know, how how hard can it be, right?
00:05:23.680 --> 00:05:25.279
Make the cable, put some wires together.
00:05:25.439 --> 00:05:33.279
We all we all have experience with extension cords and back in the day, telephone cords, believe it or not.
00:05:33.360 --> 00:05:45.040
But uh not so much now, but um yeah, the the cable, I'm I'm involved in the design process uh as well, and a lot of the design attributes beyond the electrical characteristics.
00:05:45.279 --> 00:05:50.240
A lar large um important part is the mechanical attributes of the cable.
00:05:50.399 --> 00:06:00.720
It has to flex constantly uh as the elevator is moving and for for many years, um, which makes it unique to a lot of a lot of cables in in the in the marketplace.
00:06:00.959 --> 00:06:11.680
So there are design aspects to keep it where it'll flex continuously without any problems, and also it has to track in a very small space, in a vertical space of an element or hoist play.
00:06:11.759 --> 00:06:14.319
Uh it's very important that it stays where it's supposed to.
00:06:14.480 --> 00:06:18.399
So those are some of the some of the differences to standard run-of-the-mill cable.
00:06:18.639 --> 00:06:18.879
Yeah.
00:06:19.040 --> 00:06:21.120
I mean, uh and like you say, it's got to flex, it's got to move.
00:06:21.360 --> 00:06:34.639
Is there a kind of a standard lifetime that hey you gotta I mean I I've never heard people talk about that, but I'm just curious if like, you know, it's gonna wear out after however many uses or trips or what is that?
00:06:35.040 --> 00:06:35.839
That's a very good question.
00:06:36.000 --> 00:06:53.519
We we like we design the cables to we say run the lifetime of the elevator, and knowing that most elevators are at some point are modernized and the elevator may still be operational, but the workings of the controller and various electrical components may be replaced as technology changes.
00:06:53.680 --> 00:07:04.959
But that's typically 25 years, 30 years, and we all we also our our traveling cable has a lifetime warranty, which is indicative of some of that design and and manufacturing experience.
00:07:05.199 --> 00:07:09.680
So yeah, it lasts a long time, but um a lot of things are replaced in the meantime.
00:07:10.000 --> 00:07:12.879
Sometimes upgrades are necessary for technology change.
00:07:13.279 --> 00:07:13.600
For sure.
00:07:13.759 --> 00:07:16.720
And I and I hear people say that and I I've asked the question, right?
00:07:16.800 --> 00:07:21.519
I'm I'm uh ignorant enough to that I can ask the dumb questions like what at what point does it become a mod, right?
00:07:21.680 --> 00:07:29.519
I mean I hear people say mods and that and I've heard it said, well, that when you replace the controller, then it's a mod versus a you know a big repair.
00:07:29.759 --> 00:07:34.000
Does the traveling cable get replaced every time you do a mod essentially, or does it really depend?
00:07:34.319 --> 00:07:36.319
I think in most cases it probably does.
00:07:36.399 --> 00:07:48.959
I'm not an expert on that, but typically if you're replacing a controller, that the controller dictates primarily what's in the traveling cable, as well as the peripheral components on the car, cameras and card readers and things of that sort.
00:07:49.120 --> 00:07:56.560
So if you're replacing a controller, I would assume the traveling cable would be I would assume all the time, but I'm not 100% sure.
00:07:57.040 --> 00:08:03.279
We do service the modernization market, service market, as well as the OEM and new install.
00:08:03.600 --> 00:08:04.000
For sure.
00:08:04.160 --> 00:08:05.279
Yeah, yeah.
00:08:05.519 --> 00:08:11.680
Um so I mean, obviously you mentioned you worked, you know, design, manufacturing, field engineering, customer support.
00:08:11.920 --> 00:08:16.399
How has seeing every side of the business shaped how you solve problems today?
00:08:16.720 --> 00:08:28.079
Yeah, solving problems is something that um we we like to look at not just making cables, but we also sell a variety of other products, but manufacturing the cables is is a core product for us.
00:08:28.160 --> 00:08:36.639
But we like to look at it providing solutions to to the end customer, whether it's the product itself or how we deliver it or how we package it with other components.
00:08:36.879 --> 00:08:48.240
But seeing uh from being in different positions or different points of view, I think the common common thing I would think about is that people I like to think of our customers is we have internal customers and external.
00:08:48.480 --> 00:08:53.440
The internal would be within your organization, whoever you hand your work off to is your customer.
00:08:53.600 --> 00:08:57.679
And then the external would be the end user, the one that's paying for your service.
00:08:57.840 --> 00:09:06.480
And we've all in life, we're all customers, all consumers, and we we know what it's like to wait in the long line or have something that's not delivered when it's promised.
00:09:06.559 --> 00:09:08.399
And so we have to understand that.
00:09:08.480 --> 00:09:27.039
And I try to take those different viewpoints and dealing with helping customers solve problems, you know that they're maybe not the happiest day of their life, and you want to try to give them some reassurance, but you also have to be uh upfront and out and open with with what the options are and um just treat others as you want to be treated.
00:09:27.440 --> 00:09:27.919
Absolutely.
00:09:28.080 --> 00:09:34.159
Yeah, I mean you you told me a story once about um where technology existed, but the code hadn't caught up yet.
00:09:34.320 --> 00:09:47.600
And I'm curious how common is it for innovation to move faster than regulations and and a little bit more about that that uh process where you know, hey, this we know this is going to be coming into the code, but it's not here yet.
00:09:47.679 --> 00:09:56.639
And and how do you kind of marry up those two pieces of of building a product and you know getting it, getting it where it it needs to be as the code is updated?
00:09:57.039 --> 00:10:06.720
Yeah, that's that's a big lesson learned in in the industry, is um obviously everything we do is directed by various regulatory codes, but there's different layers of codes.
00:10:06.799 --> 00:10:13.279
And those of us in the elevator industry, of course, are very familiar with the ASME A17 codes for safety.
00:10:13.440 --> 00:10:22.960
Um there's also the National Electrical Code that is more of an umbrella over many, many uh products and services that are electrical.
00:10:23.440 --> 00:10:40.480
So an example that you're referring to is um the electrical code stipulates general requirements for different types of products, and and there is a section on elevator traveling cables and specifically under a flexible cable uh section.
00:10:41.039 --> 00:10:46.159
And that dictates uh and uh as an example, uh minimum conductor size.
00:10:46.320 --> 00:11:04.559
Uh what happened with with us is that as technology changed and Ethernet cables, category cables became a standard in building infrastructures, naturally there were requests to have those within the traveling cable to continue the circuitry to the elevator, so you have internet access or on the on the car.
00:11:04.799 --> 00:11:09.759
That category cable is based on a smaller conductor size than what the code allowed.
00:11:09.919 --> 00:11:11.279
So that was a challenge.
00:11:11.440 --> 00:11:20.639
Um the the electrical code specifically is updated every three years, and there's a process to appeal or to s petition for changes.
00:11:20.799 --> 00:11:24.159
Um and if that's not approved, then you you can do it again in three years.
00:11:24.320 --> 00:11:30.399
We've done that before to get the conductor size reduced, and initially were unsuccessful in that.
00:11:30.559 --> 00:11:44.799
And so we um still had demand for the category cable, so we we went another route within the code requirements and designed and manufactured an equivalent uh category 5e pair using a larger conductor.
00:11:44.960 --> 00:11:55.039
That solution works works quite well, but it requires an adapter to be able to get the larger conductor down to the smaller conductor connectors that are standard with Ethernet cable.
00:11:55.200 --> 00:12:01.279
So that's an example where we were held back by code to make something that was was listed and certified.
00:12:01.679 --> 00:12:18.960
The final iteration with that going back to the electrical code was um it was helped with we petitioned again as well as some other um elevator industry professionals also petitioned and we were able to get the the change in the 2023 code.
00:12:19.440 --> 00:12:24.639
And so that was that was good and fine, but then the questions were okay, it's in the code, where's my cable?
00:12:25.120 --> 00:12:27.440
And uh what it's not as clean as that.
00:12:27.519 --> 00:12:43.120
It obviously there's other other uh codes around and the for the manufacturer we're we have to have uh in our industry the UL has a specific requirement for flexible cables, specifically elevator traveling cables.
00:12:43.360 --> 00:12:50.639
And that's the code that tells the manufacturer the performance criteria, insulation thickness, material types, all those types of things.
00:12:50.799 --> 00:12:58.159
So once the electrical code is changed, then the regulatory agency has to come in, in this case UL, and update their requirements.
00:12:58.399 --> 00:13:07.519
And we interviewed with them and they interviewed other manufacturers as well to develop a change into the code to comply with the uh NEC.
00:13:07.759 --> 00:13:08.080
Gotcha.
00:13:08.399 --> 00:13:18.960
So long story short, we we were able to get a UL listing for a category six cable and a traveling cable after over a year and a half from the case.
00:13:19.039 --> 00:13:20.559
I was gonna ask, yeah, how long does that take?
00:13:20.639 --> 00:13:26.159
You know, I mean it feels a little cumbersome, you know, just as an outside alert outsider looking in.
00:13:26.240 --> 00:13:40.000
Like, in other words, I don't suppose elevators are being held up, but how how do you navigate, you know, hey, here's the code, the the product it sounds like can't be made and sold until it gets the stamp.
00:13:40.159 --> 00:13:41.759
So what what happens for that year and a half?
00:13:41.840 --> 00:13:42.639
How does that work?
00:13:43.039 --> 00:13:53.279
Well, you have the you know, from my standpoint, providing technical support and um answering customers' questions in that regard, the answer initially is it's not commercially available.
00:13:53.440 --> 00:13:55.360
We do have other alternatives.
00:13:55.600 --> 00:14:07.200
We we have use of optical fibers in the traveling cable, which can send you know huge amounts of data, although it requires a different termination and maybe some conversion equipment.
00:14:07.360 --> 00:14:10.320
So there is a solution there, a little bit of resistance to that.
00:14:10.399 --> 00:14:16.639
If it's if you're going from copper in the building, you'd have to purchase transmission equipment, which is added expense.
00:14:16.879 --> 00:14:24.159
Um as I mentioned, we also developed a kind of interim solution with the larger component uh category five E pairs.
00:14:24.399 --> 00:14:32.799
But it's it's kind of an evolution and and with codes, it's you know, regulatory is there's bureaucracy and red tape, but it's also a tough job.
00:14:32.879 --> 00:14:43.759
You the code committees have to go through who who knows how many petitions every time they get around and they have to prioritize those and choose what they feel is necessary.
00:14:43.840 --> 00:14:49.519
You know, of course, those of us on the manufacturing side, the industry side need to lobby harder, I guess.
00:14:49.679 --> 00:14:52.159
But um it's a natural part of the process, I think.
00:14:52.480 --> 00:14:52.720
Sure.
00:14:52.799 --> 00:14:54.879
I mean, everything's safe, yeah.
00:14:55.440 --> 00:14:56.080
Exactly, right?
00:14:56.159 --> 00:15:07.120
There's a reason there's codes, there's a reason there's that much oversight, and it makes makes a lot of sense and and it does really kind of highlight your team and you, you know, you the need to be creative, right?
00:15:07.200 --> 00:15:15.600
And the need to say, okay, this particular thing isn't maybe commercially available, but we can still send the data, it sounds like, right?
00:15:15.679 --> 00:15:38.960
We can still make something work and we know how to you know create adapters or whatever, you know, some some kind of termination hardware you talked about, right, that can uh make sure that the message is is getting through the cable until such a time as we can do what we really wanted to in the first place, which in that case may have been just a standard category five cable.
00:15:39.200 --> 00:15:44.320
Hey there, listeners, it's Matt, and I would love to know what you want to hear more of on the podcast.
00:15:44.399 --> 00:15:55.200
If you have a topic in mind or a guest you'd like to hear from, head over to elevatorcareers.net and drop a suggestion in the box, or you can email podcast at elevatorcareers.net.
00:15:55.360 --> 00:15:57.279
The link will also be in the description below.
00:15:57.440 --> 00:15:59.919
Thank you so much for being part of this conversation.
00:16:00.080 --> 00:16:01.600
Now back to the show.
00:16:02.000 --> 00:16:08.639
And then the interim, you know, I try to educate the customer as best as possible to understand the because it's frustrating.
00:16:08.720 --> 00:16:13.679
Uh and it's not just us, it's the any any any provider is held by those codes.
00:16:13.840 --> 00:16:22.480
So um we try to develop products to anticipate code changes, and obviously everything has to align with the code in the end.
00:16:22.799 --> 00:16:23.440
Yeah, absolutely.
00:16:23.600 --> 00:16:27.039
Well, and and there's different codes in different cities and different parts of the country, right?
00:16:27.120 --> 00:16:48.960
So you're probably again back to creativity, you know, probably thinking a whole lot about, well, you know, over here we use this because they're using that code, and over here we're using something else because they're using different code, and then you know, there may be a way to you know use some of those different solutions at at different times depending on who's changing the code and and then make it work ultimately for the for the riding public.
00:16:49.039 --> 00:16:55.120
So we do some collaboration internationally, or company is global, um, different codes in different countries.
00:16:55.279 --> 00:17:02.639
Um this particular product that the European code was allowing smaller conductor sizes before we were here.
00:17:02.799 --> 00:17:15.519
So we do have experience in in Europe with similar product that's we've offered for a number of years, and sometimes I'd get a screenshot from a website asking how come you can't why can't you sell me this?
00:17:15.839 --> 00:17:19.599
Well, I can, but it doesn't meet the US, you know, requirements.
00:17:19.680 --> 00:17:23.920
So if everything was harmonized, then you know everybody's lives would be a lot easier, I guess.
00:17:24.000 --> 00:17:25.599
But that's true in so many areas.
00:17:26.240 --> 00:17:27.920
Yeah, I I get it.
00:17:28.000 --> 00:17:28.400
Yeah.
00:17:28.880 --> 00:17:37.680
It's it's fascinating, you know, not being involved in those to to just kind of learn a little bit about, you know, it it is a little bit like a a legal process in a way, right?
00:17:37.839 --> 00:17:49.599
That it uh you know has to be reviewed and voted on, and and like you say, you there's an appeal process and all kinds of things to to get some changes and ultimately it works out.
00:17:49.680 --> 00:17:51.440
It just takes a little while to to get there.
00:17:51.599 --> 00:17:52.079
Yep.
00:17:52.400 --> 00:17:53.200
Very cool.
00:17:53.440 --> 00:18:00.480
And uh yeah, I mean we were obviously talking about how it can take months or or years sometimes before a new product actually reaches the market.
00:18:00.640 --> 00:18:06.000
Are there times I mean, in a way, you're you're kind of this is just my guess here, right?
00:18:06.079 --> 00:18:08.960
But you're you're kind of subject to what is approved, right?
00:18:09.119 --> 00:18:13.680
I mean, in other words, can you create and like develop new technology?
00:18:13.759 --> 00:18:16.400
Uh I mean, at some point they would have to approve it, right?
00:18:16.480 --> 00:18:19.839
And does that happen often that you're like, hey, this would work better?
00:18:20.000 --> 00:18:24.160
We're just gonna keep asking until that is allowed to come out.
00:18:24.559 --> 00:18:25.039
Yes.
00:18:25.200 --> 00:18:29.839
Um, some ex I guess uh innovation, anything we come up with that's different.
00:18:30.000 --> 00:18:36.079
And in our case, our products are listed by UL underwriters laboratories, use in the US and North America.
00:18:36.240 --> 00:18:49.200
Anything we do that's outside of the realm of that specification, uh, we can open a project with UL, and basically we would manufacture a product using, say, different materials or different components that are outside of the scope of the spec.
00:18:49.519 --> 00:18:50.880
Then we would submit them.
00:18:51.039 --> 00:18:54.079
Of course, we do our own testing, uh, make sure everything works.
00:18:54.240 --> 00:19:06.000
But UL would typically look at it and say, if if it can meet the performance criteria of our specification, then they would give us a um grant us the use of that additional material or whatever that's outside of the spec.
00:19:06.400 --> 00:19:12.319
So that that's done within within UL because the National Code, electrical code, is is much more general.
00:19:12.559 --> 00:19:15.119
They're not telling us what type of material to use.
00:19:15.200 --> 00:19:27.519
They just, you know, in the case I just described, it's just a conductor size limitation, which by the way I learned the conductor size was introduced in the code, I think, in 1956.
00:19:28.000 --> 00:19:28.400
Oh wow.
00:19:28.640 --> 00:19:33.599
As a reason because they were worried about the wires breaking if they're any smaller than 20 gauge.
00:19:33.759 --> 00:19:37.279
We've had a lot of innovation since and stranding techniques and things.
00:19:37.359 --> 00:19:48.720
And now there's much smaller wires used on robotic applications and things like that, so it it really sits easily in the traveling cable space, but it took till 2023 to change that from back then.
00:19:48.880 --> 00:19:58.319
But anyway, um there's so most of the changes we do are not outside of the electrical code, but rather outside the scope of of the UL manufacturers.
00:19:58.640 --> 00:19:59.279
Interesting application.
00:19:59.839 --> 00:20:25.119
That that is fascinating that they have a way to uh open up a kind of preemptively, uh proactively, whatever the right word is, uh, you know, create hey, we want to create this, and then they can kind of almost you know supervise or you know, whatever, to pre-test it in a way, right, so that it's it's gonna meet the the standard once it once it comes out, and then they can put their stamp on it and you're good to go, as long as it's I guess part of the bigger code.
00:20:25.440 --> 00:20:35.920
Yeah, and it and again, they're the regulatory agency is responsible to be sure it meets basic performance criteria, mainly safety from fire and shorts and things like that.
00:20:36.160 --> 00:20:46.000
If we can make a product that still meets those performance criteria, then not always, but many times we will get a get an approval to expand our listing to add different components.
00:20:46.319 --> 00:20:47.119
Yeah, yeah.
00:20:47.359 --> 00:20:54.480
There's been a lot of talk the last few years about the A17, I think it's.1, code and the the need for audiovisual.
00:20:54.640 --> 00:20:56.880
How much has that affected the work you do?
00:20:56.960 --> 00:21:02.000
Or I mean is it just a matter of throwing in an extra cable or has it has that been a significant change?
00:21:02.559 --> 00:21:10.880
I think the audiovisual requirement from in for emergency use, um, it certainly changes the components within the traveling cable.
00:21:10.960 --> 00:21:18.559
We have many different variations, and some are just different combinations of pairs and power conductors and the like.
00:21:18.799 --> 00:21:39.680
Um I you know we've seen an increase in in the communication requirement with with video, and I believe the you know the Cat 6A Ethernet cable would be a component that would be interesting for that application for sure, more so than you know, replacing coacts and and shielded pairs and things to give you higher performance and better quality picture.
00:21:40.319 --> 00:21:40.720
Right.
00:21:40.960 --> 00:21:41.599
Right.
00:21:41.839 --> 00:21:45.519
So um yeah, I mean it it does sound like there's been a lot of innovation.
00:21:45.680 --> 00:21:57.279
I just I know a lot of different suppliers and inventors that have you know created products that kind of work on that and obviously have to communicate through the through the umbilical cord of the traveling cable.
00:21:57.440 --> 00:21:58.720
So very cool.
00:21:58.880 --> 00:22:06.160
So tell me a little bit I was uh pretty intrigued when you told me you'd worked on the the may say it wrong, the Burj Khalifa, is that how that's pronounced?
00:22:06.240 --> 00:22:06.559
Yeah.
00:22:06.799 --> 00:22:08.400
And uh One World Trade.
00:22:08.559 --> 00:22:15.599
And what are some uh things that uh would need to be considered when designing cables for buildings like that?
00:22:16.000 --> 00:22:20.319
Well, for you mentioned the Burj Khalifa, of course, is the tallest building in the world.
00:22:21.039 --> 00:22:37.440
I had the privilege to work on that project um early on, um, which was a real highlight because many times with the traveling cable, you're they reach out to you when it's time to get the traveling cable after the building's you know already in construction and need the elevators to run in a couple of weeks.
00:22:37.599 --> 00:22:47.519
Uh in this case where I was actually able to be in on involved in the process before they started building the building, so it was probably four four years earlier than it when it was built.
00:22:47.599 --> 00:23:03.759
But anyway, in our first drawings we had access to, and of course I worked for the elevator company uh installing everything, but as a supplier, the first drawing I had uh reference to did not have the building height on it because it's gonna be the tallest building.
00:23:03.920 --> 00:23:10.720
I've what I've learned is it seems that any building that's being built to be the tallest, they they kind of keep that a secret a little bit.
00:23:11.680 --> 00:23:13.359
They don't want to tell their competitors.
00:23:13.839 --> 00:23:16.079
It's either a secret or they hadn't decided yet.
00:23:16.160 --> 00:23:16.640
I don't know.
00:23:16.880 --> 00:23:20.000
But um we were, you know, as as needed basis, I guess.
00:23:20.160 --> 00:23:27.920
Obviously that that was disclosed later because it's it's hard to design a traveling cable when you don't know at that length what the length's gonna be.
00:23:28.240 --> 00:23:37.039
So most most elevators uh you design cables that have suspended lengths, they're plenty long for just about all the elevators.
00:23:37.119 --> 00:23:43.359
Um but when you get into a building of that height, you have to reconsider you know, just the physical strength of the cable.
00:23:43.519 --> 00:23:46.720
Uh can it hold up and you you don't want it to break or anything.
00:23:47.279 --> 00:23:52.880
So that was one aspect, but the biggest thing with that job was that um there were a lot of weight requirements.
00:23:53.200 --> 00:24:01.279
As you imagine just the restriction of that height, some of the things that had to be resolved um just to be able to do that type of elevator.
00:24:01.759 --> 00:24:04.240
Things like hoist ropes, comp ropes.
00:24:04.720 --> 00:24:10.559
Very heavy when they're that long, you know, do an observation car to the top of a building like that.
00:24:11.039 --> 00:24:21.519
So there were some different technologies used on those things, and and we had as a traveling cable supplier, we had a maximum weight load requirement for the cables.
00:24:21.759 --> 00:24:27.519
Um generally we design a cable and then don't pay a lot of attention to the weight, it's just an output of the design.
00:24:27.759 --> 00:24:35.119
In this case, we had to really scrutinize the design and and make everything compacted together as best as possible.
00:24:35.279 --> 00:24:40.400
And we also made use of a lot of optical fibers, which are much lighter than the copper, obviously.
00:24:40.559 --> 00:24:42.559
So that that helped get our weight down.
00:24:42.640 --> 00:24:48.079
But they also wanted an incredible number of components within the cables on the observation cars.
00:24:48.559 --> 00:25:02.160
And I think with those types of buildings, you always have a tourist element of some type of observation car that has lots of video screens and a very entertaining ride to the top, so that requires a lot of components that most elevators wouldn't have as well.
00:25:02.400 --> 00:25:02.720
Yeah.
00:25:03.839 --> 00:25:04.640
That's fascinating.
00:25:04.720 --> 00:25:06.480
I mean, you mentioned a couple things that caught my attention.
00:25:06.640 --> 00:25:09.200
One is just that the rope itself won't break, right?
00:25:09.279 --> 00:25:11.519
You stretch it up, what is it, 1200 feet or something?
00:25:11.599 --> 00:25:12.720
I forget how tall that build is.
00:25:14.799 --> 00:25:16.319
It's over 150 floors.
00:25:16.400 --> 00:25:17.759
I should have rewritten a little bit.
00:25:19.279 --> 00:25:28.240
So so the the the question of, hey, can we make one long enough that it's not so heavy that it won't just snap like spaghetti when we stretch it out?
00:25:28.559 --> 00:25:30.640
I mean, that's that's significant.
00:25:30.799 --> 00:25:34.319
And then the other one, you know, just that it had to have all these weight considerations.
00:25:34.480 --> 00:25:39.279
I mean, you even told me that the cab itself was made from like ultralight aluminum.
00:25:39.519 --> 00:25:49.599
You know, it's so obviously it's it feels like to me they're they're maybe approaching the the maximum capacity of elevator technology uh or maximum height.
00:25:50.000 --> 00:26:00.720
Yeah, I I think my understanding on that project was really breaking some barriers of maximum heights, but then you know, re I guess resetting the bar or what maximum is.
00:26:00.880 --> 00:26:08.799
But other projects in the works that are even taller that at least in theory can be done, but not with a traditional elevator um components.
00:26:08.880 --> 00:26:11.680
Everything has to be reviewed and considered.
00:26:11.839 --> 00:26:16.160
Because ultimately, if the if there's too much weight on the car, there's no capacity for passengers.
00:26:16.240 --> 00:26:17.759
So you have to make money.
00:26:18.000 --> 00:26:19.200
One at a time, please.
00:26:20.160 --> 00:26:25.759
So um, but yeah, that's so that that was a unique challenge, but it was uh rewarding to be part of that.
00:26:26.000 --> 00:26:26.559
Absolutely.
00:26:26.720 --> 00:26:34.480
See this now that sounds like a lot of fun and and uh yeah, just the the engineering alone is has got to be, like I say, rewarding and and memorable.
00:26:34.640 --> 00:26:36.799
And um, yeah, no, that's fascinating.
00:26:36.960 --> 00:26:39.119
So a couple questions for you before we end.
00:26:39.200 --> 00:26:44.960
And one is you know, looking back in your career, what project or accomplishment makes you the most proud and why?
00:26:45.279 --> 00:26:53.759
Well, the first one comes to mind is the Burge Khalifa, just because it is the tallest building in the world, but uh been involved in some other unique projects.
00:26:53.839 --> 00:27:05.359
Um one that comes to mind is it's kind of obscure for most people don't think about it, but I was able to work on the the first um Tower of Terror for Disney.
00:27:05.519 --> 00:27:06.000
Right on.
00:27:06.160 --> 00:27:06.480
I love it.
00:27:07.200 --> 00:27:11.759
The challenge there was to design a cable for an elevator that's designed to crash.
00:27:11.920 --> 00:27:15.039
It's designed the elevator is designed to fail, it has a free fall element.
00:27:15.359 --> 00:27:21.519
Yeah, and and I didn't, I mean, I rode that 30 years ago with some friends in college or whatever.
00:27:21.680 --> 00:27:24.000
But um I think we went through up 15 times.
00:27:24.079 --> 00:27:26.720
It wasn't busy that day and just over and over and over.
00:27:26.960 --> 00:27:35.279
So reflecting on that, I mean, obviously, probably not your area of expertise, but it it's designed to fall and to go back up and fall, right?
00:27:35.440 --> 00:27:40.880
So there's uh I really didn't think about it at the time other than it was just a a fun ride.
00:27:41.039 --> 00:27:52.000
But yeah, and I I tried to um get a trip there to help observe installation or assist or whatever, but Disney has all their own, as you might can imagine, their own imagineering department.
00:27:52.079 --> 00:27:57.599
They do all their own install and maintenance and basically deliver product to their gate and they take it from there.
00:27:57.759 --> 00:28:03.839
But it had to withstand the robust, you know, erratic behavior of an elevator.
00:28:04.000 --> 00:28:11.359
That um normally if I had a call from somebody with erratic behavior like that, I would tell them, Well, you have to, you know, maintenance your elevator is your problem.
00:28:11.440 --> 00:28:14.240
It's not that's not cable, but that's designed that way.
00:28:14.400 --> 00:28:15.680
So so that was unique one.
00:28:15.759 --> 00:28:21.599
It was kind of fun, and that's as you said, um that was a long time ago, evidently, if you were there 30 years ago.
00:28:21.759 --> 00:28:22.720
Um I yeah.
00:28:23.039 --> 00:28:24.000
And it's probably right.
00:28:24.079 --> 00:28:34.400
It's it's you know, I've been doing this for a little while, but um and we've you know, we've had that was the first one was in Orlando, and then of course there's others not thinking Disney Euro and places like that.
00:28:34.880 --> 00:28:35.200
Yeah.
00:28:35.359 --> 00:28:38.480
So they wouldn't give you uh a backstage pass to to see it.
00:28:38.799 --> 00:28:43.039
They they they said no, just come buy a ticket and you can ride it all you want, but exactly.
00:28:43.119 --> 00:28:43.759
Yeah.
00:28:44.319 --> 00:28:45.279
Like everybody else.
00:28:45.359 --> 00:28:46.240
So yeah, yeah.
00:28:46.319 --> 00:28:50.799
So last question I have for you, what advice would you give to somebody who's just starting out, right?
00:28:50.880 --> 00:28:53.279
Maybe it was young Dillard just coming out of college.
00:28:53.440 --> 00:28:55.039
What would you what would you say to them?
00:28:55.440 --> 00:29:01.039
One, take advantage of every opportunity that's afforded you if you're working for a company, they offer training, take that.
00:29:01.200 --> 00:29:04.079
Um and really do well with people.
00:29:04.240 --> 00:29:34.400
I think coming from a technology background, there's there's not always a people element there, but I think whatever role you have, working with people makes things a lot better, dealing with the customer, obviously, but even working within your organization, um, understanding that we all have similar needs, but maybe approach them a different way, and try to collaborate with others so that different you know, different viewpoints can often the synergy can give uh a larger sum than what individually would provide.
00:29:34.799 --> 00:29:35.359
So true.
00:29:35.440 --> 00:29:36.319
Yeah, well said.
00:29:36.559 --> 00:29:38.160
Dillard, thank you for being with me today.
00:29:38.240 --> 00:29:41.119
I I've enjoyed it and uh appreciate you being on the show.
00:29:41.440 --> 00:29:42.160
Okay, Matt.
00:29:42.240 --> 00:29:43.519
I appreciate the opportunity.
00:29:43.759 --> 00:29:44.480
Yes, sir.
00:29:44.720 --> 00:29:45.519
Take care.
00:29:45.839 --> 00:29:52.640
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00:29:52.799 --> 00:30:00.319
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00:30:00.480 --> 00:30:01.839
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00:30:01.920 --> 00:30:04.079
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