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The construction industry, the service business, it's to me it's not any different than going to a restaurant.
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I'm going to continue to go to a restaurant that gives me better value and better service.
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And I'm even willing to pay more for it.
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And I think that that's where just the elevator industry could improve is hey, if I know I'm getting better service from Company X, I don't care that they're 10% more than the other whatever.
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I know that I'm not going to have this$5,000 if there's going to be a team player.
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We're going to talk about this project from the very beginning.
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And welcome to the Elevator Careers Podcast, sponsored by the All Red Group.
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I am your host, at all.
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In this conversation, it offers an external field of elevator projects, what general contractors appreciate from elevator companies, where projects often go wrong, and how communication can prevent costing mistakes.
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This conversation shares valuable ways that contractors, project managers, and elevator contractors can build stronger partnerships.
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Zane, welcome to the show.
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How are you doing?
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Doing great.
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Thanks for being here with me today.
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Yes, thank you for having me.
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Yeah, no, I appreciate it.
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I uh I'm intrigued and kind of excited to get a general contractor's perspective.
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I I'm sure you've dealt with a lot of elevators over the years.
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Is that true?
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That that's that's very true.
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I probably 75% of the projects seem to have a elevator in them.
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And how long have you been doing it?
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Uh 26 years.
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Okay.
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Yeah.
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Uh no, actually, that back 20 uh 26 years or been 2000.
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So 29 years.
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Oh my.
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Okay.
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Yeah.
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Been at it for a while, and and you've you've seen a lot of different things.
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So uh obviously we'll get we'll get into some of the the details there.
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But uh you had said that um elevators are are kind of a black box to most contractors.
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I'm curious, when did you first realize elevators were were really different than pretty much any other trade on the project?
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Uh you know, it was it's funny when when I got in the trades, when I first got in the trades, my dad didn't really want me following in his footprint, you know, footsteps, but uh he wanted me to explore the other trades and get into a different trade.
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And talking to other people on job sites, you know, a lot of people like, if try to do it over again, I'd be an elevator mechanic, you know, or um, you know, hey, you're young enough, you should be, you know, joining the elevator union.
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So um that that kind of you know obviously sparked my interest um in understanding more on on why that is.
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But um, yeah, I said I don't know if it's the same now, but uh back when I got started, like I said, the elevator union didn't even really negotiate contracts or whatever, they just kind of did an average of the top three highest paid trades, and that you know, whatever they got as a raise, that's what their raise was uh every three years or whatever their contract links are.
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So um it's it's obviously always been kind of at the top of the pay scale uh of trades as well.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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What what was it that your father did that he was warning you to not do?
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Uh he was a hob carrier, so uh he was a laborer um that worked with uh Masons.
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Yeah, that's hard work.
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Yeah, I did it for 12 years.
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Yeah, yeah.
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I mean, I did like four months of of concrete work, like, you know, pre-college, and I was like, man, that's gonna keep me in college.
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Yeah, for sure.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Um, well, let's let's talk a little bit more about your experience with elevators.
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And um, I'm curious, what's the most expensive elevator mistake you've ever witnessed?
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And what happened?
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Yeah, it's it's funny you ask that because it's very fresh on the mind.
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It was actually the very last elevator that uh that we did.
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Um we uh just completed a project, it was only a four-story um edition, and it was estimated as a$300 mistake or error.
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Luckily, uh if you call it luck, but all the trades were locked into a TM rate and a and a certain limited markup.
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So at the end of the day, it'll end up costing the owner$240,000.
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But um what had happened was it was an addition on the building, and the building itself already had stairs right next to where we were adding, and so we had assumed that was the route of emergency egress, but the way the design team, the architects had uh designed this and permitted it, it was a standalone separate, basically separate building, even though it was attached to another building.
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And so the elevator was the egress.
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Um which sounds really dangerous to me, right?
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I mean, if you're talking about a fire, it's like no, you are gonna go on the elevator or yeah, exactly.
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It's it's it's funny um because like I said, after after looking into it, it falls under uh the IBC code or whatever, and it's basically it's for like buildings that are like 400 plus feet tall, right?
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That the the twin towers or something like that.
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They're not expecting everybody to go run down 40 flights of stairs.
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The occupants can get in the elevator themselves and go down and um exit the building so that the elevators continue to work and operate as a means of egress, which And that's supposed to happen with people who are panicking.
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I I'm just envisioning you know, some kind of airplane has crashed into the building and and people are gonna be nice and take turns and not kill each other getting in the elevator.
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Yeah, yeah, and I I agree.
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I said it's it's a it's a weird thing I've I've never ran into.
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Um and it's been I was trying to think if I've built a building over 400 feet, and I can't necessarily think of one off the top of my head, but it's been a long time since I've built any, you know, anything over 25 stories.
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So yeah, it's it's not something that we're used to, and again, it is something that's allowed in the code.
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Um, but why they did it on a four-story building and then they didn't design any of the other requirements of it.
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They just used that exception so that they didn't have to add more stairs, but didn't include all the necessary design in order for that to be an operational elevator in an emergency.
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Yeah, I mean it seems like they would need to create some kind of high performance.
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This is gonna work even if the building's on fire kind of setup.
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Is that true?
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Yeah, so that's that's why it costs so much as the elevator shaft has to become a three-hour um enclosure so that you know the the building can burn around it, but the elevator shaft will continue to work.
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Um it has to have its own generator power so that again, if the building's burning, that it's got power to run the elevator up and down, and it has to have a basically a fan at the top of the elevator to have smoke blow out so that you know the the elevator doesn't become engulfed in smoke and everybody die from smoke inhalation.
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Um so yeah, all these things had to be added to the project, and this happened while we were trying to get TCL.
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Right, so it's kind of last minute.
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It's like, oh, by the way, this won't work as is.
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So you said it cost$300,000, or it was estimated to cost$300,000 to fix, but didn't quite cost that much.
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Yeah, it didn't quite cost that much.
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$240,000 is still pretty painful.
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So what did they end up doing?
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Did they end up just tacking some stairs on, or did they actually go through and actually we had to go through and we added uh an additional layer of sheetrock around the elevator shaft.
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We had to hook it up to generator power, and we had to have a fan added at the top, and uh fire alarm had to get reworked, a couple other things.
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But yeah, that's that's what the cost ended up being was an extra 240,000 bucks.
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Wow.
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So it still is the egress and and now it's able to be used for that in in the case of emergency.
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It is, and the funny thing was is all the all the signage, the all the emergency exit signage that that uh was created for the project all says go down the stairs.
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Uh but okay, but in order for them not to design new stairs in the project, a gray area shortcut that the design team put in there, but um didn't understand what all else it entailed or what other scopes of work needed to be coordinated, um, along with you know just putting a elevator series XXX.45 type thing.
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So Right, right.
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How just in your opinion, how could that have been caught sooner so that it didn't cost not not only the the money at the end, but but it was obviously delayed in being able to be occupied.
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Well, I think number one, if there was something in the drawings and stuff that had said that that was what the intent of the elevator was, because even the elevator um subcontractor, um, they they knew that that elevator could be used for that purpose, and it really didn't affect the actual elevator subcontractor all that much, but it was um all the other trades.
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And so again, I don't I don't know because it was not a design build project, it was a another contractor that they'd had on during the earlier part of the project.
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So it was kind of like here's a set of plans, you know, start next week.
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That's what could have been done on our side of things.
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On their side of things, like I said, I I think that if the architects and design team knew what all the other ramifications were, that would be great.
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Uh somebody probably just said, Hey, I know about this code in the IBC that we can use so that we don't have to add stairs.
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And somebody else is like, Oh, great, you know, you're a genius.
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Do it.
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And um, and then they just moved on from there.
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And nobody else knew that that's what the purpose was.
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Yeah, till it till it came right down to the wire, right?
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I think you said they they were trying to move in the very day that that that all blew up.
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Correct.
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Yeah, they wanted to move furniture in, so we contacted Labor and Industry and they said, Yeah, this this can't operate like this.
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This is supposed to be have all these other components.
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So it was, yeah, definitely a curveball.
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Yeah, for sure, for sure.
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I mean, if you could sit every architect, owner, developer down in a room for five minutes, what elevator lessons would you make sure they understood before the next project?
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Um, I I believe that one size doesn't fit all.
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They often think, you know, okay, every elevator's got more specific things, but they can all kind of, you know, let's say fit in an eight foot by eight foot, you know, box, whatever, some of them one, eight foot six and some one eight foot two, and so on and so forth, but they can all get into a nine foot by nine foot.
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So they're just gonna go with a nine foot by nine foot or or whatever their thought process is behind it, they kind of think that they can do all of it.
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Or, you know, they just kind of cut and paste from the last project and they just think, oh yeah, this is a two-story, you know, a lot of it seems to really happen like on two-stop things where nobody thinks that the elevator is all that big a deal.
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They just they have to add it from the very first set of drawings.
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They draw a box on the floor plan and put a big X on it, and boom, that's what it is.
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Yeah, and they they nothing else is done with it until it's CDs.
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They grab some details and put them in there, and sometimes they're even supplied by the manufacturer, and specifications call for you know a specific elevator, but um the details that they threw in there weren't from that specific elevator, or they cut and paste, it's kind of an easy button type thing, and it definitely causes some issues, especially you know, here in Washington State.
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I mean, uh machine roomless elevators have been around for a long time, but they just started allowing you to not to actually have a machine room.
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So even though we've been having machine roomless elevators installed, they've all been installing the equipment.
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They still had a machine room.
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So so the design team now is like, oh, okay, now I can I got extra square footage, I can put, you know, an extra bedroom in there or or an extra classroom or whatever, but they don't understand where all that machine room is going or whatever.
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They're it's not disappearing.
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It's not that equipment isn't needed anymore.
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It's just being put in a different place.
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They're they're still trying to understand that.
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Yeah, yeah, understood.
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Um, so I I mean we've talked about this a little bit, but I'm just curious why you think elevator problems show up so late in a project instead of being caught by design.
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I mean, you would hope the designers would know that what they're designing, but but I guess sometimes they don't.
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Yeah, I I I think that they normally don't, and like I said, they either are grabbing something from another project or they're counting on, you know, hey, if I uh specify this specific elevator, then that manufacturer is gonna send me, you know, basically the submittal stuff, and I'm just gonna copy and paste that into my drawings, and the contractor is gonna know the price is gonna be there, everything else, but they don't actually go and coordinate with anybody else.
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They don't coordinate with their uh mechanical design team or their electrical design team, even you know, their their own walls uh see and ceiling assemblies and things.
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And so again, I I think I just said this, but they basically put a box on a floor plan and that's where it stays until the end of the design when they start thinking about what do I want the inside of this elevator to look like, what's the flooring material, what's the the wall paneling, and what's the ceiling paneling is going to be.
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And that's when they start thinking about the elevator again.
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And by then, any changes would require them moving walls that start affecting maybe some ADA compliance issues and turnaround stuff, or plumbing walls, stuff like that, or or worse, we've poured elevator pits and then found out there's this machine roomless elevator, needs an extra foot of elevator pit.
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And so, like, okay, what what do you want us to do?
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And so we end up cutting up a elevator pit we just installed.
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And going a foot deeper and and pouring another one, is that yeah.
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I mean, that's that's what it's it's had to have been on some projects.
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Um even something as silly as waterproofing.
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So I every project I estimate I always put waterproofing around the elevator pit.
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It's just my process or whatever.
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I think that every elevator pit needs uh waterproofing around it, whether it's in a water table or not.
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Um, but like I said, a lot of times, again, because they're not thinking about that elevator pit, they just think about my footings are only two feet deep and I'm not in a water table.
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Well, but your elevator pit is six feet below that.
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And so maybe you are in a water table.
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That's usually while we're digging a hole or something like that.
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The question gets brought up and everybody's like, oh shoot, you know, I didn't think about that.
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And so we're adding waterproofing, which again is a cost to the owner because we didn't anticipate it, it wasn't shown in the drawings.
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And then unless again, like we're hired as a design builder or we're brought on early to be able to help um coordinate some of these things, but um even then sometimes these things get get missed.
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We'll we'll talk about it, and sometimes it still doesn't all get coordinated in the drawing.
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Yeah, well, obviously there's a lot of complexity there, right?
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So it's it it does take effort, take some, you know, being aware, being conscious of okay, this is a very complex system, a lot of requirements, different codes, and not that everybody needs to know, but uh, I'm curious how many, I mean, percentage-wise, how many elevator projects get a little sideways and end up costing more than expected?
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I would say that probably at least 25% end up costing more than expected.
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Uh they're not all usually extreme.
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You know, usually it's you know a thousand bucks here, a couple thousand bucks there.
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Sometimes it's you know more like having to have an elevator operator, operating the elevator during you know, the owner's move in or something like that because we're, you know, they want to move in before you got C of O on the project.
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Um, you know, that those are kind of the simple ones or whatever.
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Sometimes it's you know, a a drywaller, you know, ran some screws, too long of screws into the elevator pit or the shaft area.
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To me, or whatever, it doesn't interfere with anything.
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So I don't know what the big deal is, but um, it's a big deal in the elevator uh world or whatever.
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They don't want any screw heads poking in the wall, even if it is you know eight, nine inches away from the actual elevator itself.
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Um, and so we've had to fix some of those things, you know, they get caught during an elevator.
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In fact, as a company now, I was just teaching a new project manager we hired last week uh that on our projects I always have money in the estimate for pre-inspection.
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So we'll hop in the elevator, write it with the elevator subcontractor, and point out all the stuff that the inspector's gonna catch so that we when the inspector shows up, we always pass and don't have an issue with it.
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Because right now, at least uh in the Seattle area, um there's only a handful of inspectors, and so you know, it may be you know a couple weeks before he's able to come back out and inspect your elevator.
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So usually the schedule doesn't allow for, oh, we didn't pass it, you know, we'll just wait two weeks and then pass in two weeks.
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Um so that's why uh we do it.
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Like I said, it's it's more of an insurance than anything else or whatever, and it's usually a thousand bucks or something or whatever to spend you know half a day running up and down the elevator shaft with the subcontractor and fixing cocaine or any other little thing that we all spot.
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I mean, how much does that thousand bucks save you?
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That sounds like it's a pretty smart idea to just do that and make sure you're good.
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But I mean, if you didn't do it, what would that look like?
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Um it well, I mean, depending on where how it affects the the schedule, I mean it could be, you know,$25,000 thing or whatever, or if you're trying to get C of O and you're right up against it and you don't have you know a day or two in your schedule, um, it it could be very costly because you could have um liquidated damages from the owner that are$10,000 a day.
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Um and so if you're waiting two weeks for that inspector to come back, buy or whatever, that's$140,000.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Well, I mean it's it sounds like uh just a little bit of pre-planning, right?
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You you get out ahead of it, do what you can, right?
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You may not catch absolutely everything, but uh just in other words, there could be something like what you plan the egress, like the one you talked about at the beginning, right?
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There could be something that just comes out of left field and you never saw it, but it sounds like you're at least getting ahead of of what you can control, what you can think of, and saving yourself that headache.
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Correct, yeah.
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And and again, it kind of goes back to your last question of if I have to spend a thousand bucks, but I know that 25% of the time I'm gonna be spending a thousand bucks anyway on a on a mistake.
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Um it's it's never seems to be a wasted amount of money.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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Hey there, listeners.
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It's Matt, and I would love to know what you want to hear more of on the podcast.
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If you have a topic in mind or a guest you'd like to hear from, head over to elevatorcareers.net and drop a suggestion in the box, or you can email podcast at elevatorcareers.net.
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The link will also be in the description below.
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Thank you so much for being part of this conversation.
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Now, back to the show.
00:18:53.920 --> 00:19:01.599
Um I mean, do elevator systems tend to create more surprises, change orders, frustration than other building systems in your experience?
00:19:01.920 --> 00:19:02.559
Well, a couple things.
00:19:02.640 --> 00:19:08.960
Number one, usually the the changes are more expensive, more more they're there's a bigger dollar value to them.
00:19:09.200 --> 00:19:15.039
Um and and I think it goes back to, like I said, they're they're one of the higher paid trades on any project or whatever.
00:19:15.119 --> 00:19:28.960
So if I'm having to pay them eight hours because I wasn't ready for something or things like that, or you know, pay a crew to go home, that adds up very quickly as opposed to, you know, maybe my landscaper or my foreign guy or something like that.
00:19:29.279 --> 00:19:34.319
Planting the wrong flowers is not as costly as installing the wrong elevator, I think what you're saying.
00:19:34.640 --> 00:19:35.680
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
00:19:35.920 --> 00:19:41.039
And um, and so like I said, I don't know that it generates more change orders.
00:19:41.119 --> 00:19:46.640
I mean, I don't know that that's the case or whatever, but again, the the change orders seem to have a little bit more pain to them.
00:19:47.039 --> 00:19:48.480
Yeah, yeah, understood.
00:19:48.559 --> 00:19:55.839
They they sting a little bit more than than other ones that uh that you can just kind of handle quickly and and just part of doing business.
00:19:56.079 --> 00:20:02.319
Um you uh you said that owners you know are the are the ones that a lot of times end up taking it in the shorts, quote unquote.
00:20:02.400 --> 00:20:07.519
Uh what are some ways building owners maybe unknowingly create some of their elevator problems?
00:20:07.680 --> 00:20:08.559
Have you seen that?
00:20:09.039 --> 00:20:14.960
Yeah, I the biggest thing for them is that they have to live with this elevator forever.
00:20:15.119 --> 00:20:26.640
I mean, it's uh on on any building or any project or whatever, if an owner decides, you know, hey, I don't like you know the brick on the outside, you know, we can re tear the brick off and replace it with siding.
00:20:26.720 --> 00:20:29.359
Um or if they don't like a color, we can repaint something.
00:20:29.599 --> 00:20:36.319
If you know the flooring gets outdated, you know, we can replace and upgrade flooring five years, ten years, twenty years down the road.
00:20:36.480 --> 00:20:42.880
You you're not going and pulling an elevator out after five or ten years or something like that or whatever.
00:20:42.960 --> 00:20:44.799
It's it's there forever.
00:20:45.039 --> 00:20:53.200
So um picking you know the right elevator and the right company to maintain it and and can service it is is important.
00:20:53.359 --> 00:20:57.519
So I think that's uh you know something that maybe owners maybe don't fully understand.
00:20:57.599 --> 00:21:01.279
They they think of, I'm saving some money choosing you know Company X.
00:21:01.440 --> 00:21:07.440
Well, Company X doesn't have any maintenance people in the area, or they're you know, overbooked all the time.
00:21:07.680 --> 00:21:16.160
So when the elevator's down and they uh say, oh, well I'll be out there to fix it in two weeks, that's that's not really an acceptable um deal.
00:21:16.319 --> 00:21:19.599
So then you're you know, as an owner, then you say, Okay, well, what can I do?
00:21:19.680 --> 00:21:20.640
I need this fixed right away.
00:21:20.799 --> 00:21:26.640
So then you're like, okay, well, we can get out there, but we're gonna charge you overtime or weekend rates or stuff like that.
00:21:26.799 --> 00:21:36.880
So um, like I said, understanding the life cycle um of the elevator, I think, is is very important for owners and usually where um they kind of create their own their own problems.
00:21:37.119 --> 00:21:37.680
Yeah, yeah.
00:21:37.839 --> 00:21:46.720
Well, and this this question just came to mind, which is I hear people talk about sometimes, you know, developers go in, they know they're not gonna keep it, they're just kind of building it, you know, flipping it, selling.
00:21:46.880 --> 00:21:52.000
And so so what they're buying an elevator for is very different from somebody who is gonna own it for the next twenty ten, twenty years.
00:21:52.079 --> 00:21:53.119
Do you ever see that show up?
00:21:53.359 --> 00:21:59.279
In in multifamilies, up until COVID, you know, we did a lot of multifamily in this area.
00:21:59.440 --> 00:22:01.839
And And yeah, that's exactly what happened, or whatever.
00:22:02.000 --> 00:22:07.440
I mean, I I worked on one project where it was like a 18-month construction period.
00:22:07.599 --> 00:22:12.000
Somewhere during construction, the original people that hired us sold the project.
00:22:12.160 --> 00:22:17.759
And then eight weeks after we were complete, the second owners sold that project.
00:22:17.920 --> 00:22:21.759
So within you know, like less than two years, that project was already sold twice.
00:22:21.839 --> 00:22:33.119
And each time, you know, we had like a I think it was a$23 million construction contract on the project, and we'd seen in the paper that while we were doing construction, they sold it for like$35 million or something like that.
00:22:33.279 --> 00:22:33.680
Wow.
00:22:33.920 --> 00:22:41.839
And then it was sold for um like$48 million, again, like eight weeks after uh we we finished building it.
00:22:41.920 --> 00:22:46.960
So they they'd basically doubled their investment in it, you know, in those two years.
00:22:47.119 --> 00:22:58.799
Um, but anyway, yes, uh, in that case, that's exactly what it was was the design started with two elevators, and um the owner is like, we don't need two elevators, we only need one elevator.
00:22:58.880 --> 00:23:07.200
And it's like, well, the the original people that we started design with wanted two elevators in case one was broke down, the residents could still use the other elevator.
00:23:07.440 --> 00:23:07.920
Sure.
00:23:08.240 --> 00:23:11.279
And the the new people are like, they didn't care.
00:23:11.359 --> 00:23:14.160
We're gonna but they knew we're gonna sell it.
00:23:14.319 --> 00:23:29.759
So we want one elevator, and you know, the lowest speeds possible is fine with us, you know, whatever the lowest cost denominator is, we want the lowest finish, lowest cost finishes inside, because that adds no value to what we're gonna um sell it for.
00:23:29.839 --> 00:23:37.599
Um it adds a huge amount of value to the actual project, but it doesn't add anything to the actual value and when you go and try to resell it.
00:23:37.680 --> 00:23:38.000
Yeah.
00:23:38.319 --> 00:23:39.200
Wow, fascinating.
00:23:39.279 --> 00:23:40.880
So yeah, to your to your point, right?
00:23:40.960 --> 00:23:48.720
It's uh if you're the third owner, you're and if you're gonna keep it, you you're gonna care a little bit more than than the first two that are just like, yeah.
00:23:49.519 --> 00:23:50.160
I don't care at all.
00:23:50.400 --> 00:23:50.720
Yeah.
00:23:51.039 --> 00:23:51.200
Yeah.
00:23:51.279 --> 00:23:56.400
So sometimes the owners make problems for other owners down the road.
00:23:56.960 --> 00:23:57.920
Yeah, absolutely.
00:23:58.079 --> 00:23:58.400
Yeah.
00:23:58.559 --> 00:24:08.319
So uh you you told me about a project in that area, Battered Women's Shelter, where people were saying, hey, there's not even an elevator solution possible.
00:24:08.799 --> 00:24:11.279
And then somebody stepped up and found a way.
00:24:11.440 --> 00:24:12.640
Tell me more about that.
00:24:12.880 --> 00:24:13.519
Yeah, yeah.
00:24:13.599 --> 00:24:17.200
So I um I want to say it was like around 2000-ish.
00:24:17.519 --> 00:24:19.279
Um it was it was a long time ago.
00:24:19.440 --> 00:24:30.000
The it was the YWCA locally here, had bought in a building and wanted to renovate it into a woman's battered shelter basically for women and children escaping domestic violence.
00:24:30.240 --> 00:24:39.680
It was an emergency place or whatever, so the tenants weren't gonna be there more than you know, like I think 60, 90 days or something like that, or whatever, and then they'd move them into more uh transitional housing.
00:24:39.839 --> 00:24:48.160
So we renovated it, but during that renovation, the elevator could not be brought up to code and it was red tagged.
00:24:48.480 --> 00:24:50.880
Kind of an older build-how old was that building, if I may.
00:24:50.960 --> 00:24:53.279
Uh yeah, I want to say it was like 1920.
00:24:53.519 --> 00:24:54.000
Oh wow.
00:24:54.720 --> 00:24:58.400
Um yeah, I think that's I think that's about when it was about 1920.
00:24:58.720 --> 00:25:04.000
And so, yeah, they they everybody said that the new modern elevators couldn't fit in a small shaft.
00:25:04.079 --> 00:25:04.240
Right.
00:25:04.480 --> 00:25:26.240
Um, and so we had gotten prices to add an exterior elevator to the building, and it was, you know, far exceeded their budget, and uh, we found out that hey, it was grandfathered in, you don't actually need the working elevator, but you know, all these women and children were gonna have to be using the stairs with their groceries and strollers and everything else.
00:25:26.480 --> 00:25:27.839
What tall was the building?
00:25:28.079 --> 00:25:37.359
Um it was it was five stories, but you actually uh came in, residents actually came in on on the lower basement floor.
00:25:37.599 --> 00:25:42.400
So they actually go up you know a set of stairs to the lobby areas to begin with.
00:25:42.559 --> 00:25:47.839
So so yeah, so they're you know roughly 40-50 feet that they're you know walking upstairs.
00:25:47.920 --> 00:25:56.960
But I stayed in contact uh with them over the years, and usually about every three or four years, you know, they were they were fundraising, trying to raise the money.
00:25:57.119 --> 00:26:01.279
And every three or four years they'd reach out and say, Hey, can can we get an updated price on this?
00:26:01.440 --> 00:26:08.160
And so I would, and and construction costs kept outpacing their ability to fundraise.
00:26:08.480 --> 00:26:18.160
And um they ended up hiring an architect, they designed this exterior shaft, they were actually gonna have to lose one of their apartment units in order to get this um in and everything else.
00:26:18.319 --> 00:26:22.319
And then finally, um, I want to say it was like 2018 or something like that.
00:26:22.480 --> 00:26:26.559
They said, Hey, we think we we have you know the money or close to it.
00:26:26.640 --> 00:26:27.839
Can you provide an estimate?
00:26:28.000 --> 00:26:34.960
Right about that time, friend Jeremy um had gotten out of, he was working for you know one of the big name brand elevator contractors.
00:26:35.039 --> 00:26:37.839
He was starting his own deal, and I said, Hey, this is perfect timing.
00:26:38.160 --> 00:26:39.599
Um, I'd love to help you out.
00:26:39.680 --> 00:26:41.039
I'm working on this project.
00:26:41.200 --> 00:26:47.440
Can you help me out with the with the price so they know if they're close enough with their uh fundraising that they can pull the trigger?
00:26:47.759 --> 00:26:53.279
And uh, you know, after looking at it, he's like, you know, Zayn, why aren't we just putting something in the existing elevator shaft?
00:26:53.440 --> 00:26:57.519
And I'm like, everybody has told me that it can't fit in the modern elevator, cannot fit in that thing.
00:26:57.680 --> 00:27:04.880
And we had every major manufacturer uh looking at this thing, and he says, he says, I think I can.
00:27:05.039 --> 00:27:05.759
I think I can do that.
00:27:05.920 --> 00:27:09.039
Give give me a couple weeks and let me see what I can do.
00:27:09.200 --> 00:27:18.319
And he started sourcing the parts from all over the country and he was able to come up with you know parts and pieces from different elevator manufacturers that all fit inside that.
00:27:18.480 --> 00:27:35.920
We had to make some modifications, so there was some additional costs, but they had raised about a million dollars over the dozen plus years, and we had estimated this is gonna be 1.25 uh million bucks, and Jeremy came in with a price of like 250,000 bucks for the elevator.
00:27:36.079 --> 00:27:36.480
Wow.
00:27:36.640 --> 00:27:51.519
Um, with all the other stuff, um, I think all in, it was like 400,000 bucks, and so you know, we didn't even use up half of their budget to put this in, and they didn't lose a unit, so they were able to continue to have you know have families stay in those units every 90 days.
00:27:51.680 --> 00:27:54.960
Um I mean it was just a great story um all the way around.
00:27:55.039 --> 00:28:20.559
The the client couldn't have been happier with you know everybody about it, but I just kept thinking in my head, is as good as that makes you feel and and heartwarming as it as it is, if somebody else just would have been more concerned with helping out this you know nonprofit agency instead of selling something that comes in their you know one of their boxes, we could have had this elevator for them, you know, 10 plus years sooner.
00:28:20.799 --> 00:28:23.759
And it probably would have cost far less back then.
00:28:24.079 --> 00:28:44.559
So it is again as great as the story is, the it kind of sucked that, like I said, nobody else in the industry said, Hey, why don't you go reach out to this company who's out of Arizona or this company that's out of Utah or this company that's over in Florida or anything else where I mean none of that none of those conversations happened.
00:28:44.720 --> 00:28:46.400
It was just uh no, it can't happen.
00:28:46.480 --> 00:28:48.160
No modern elevator can fit in there.
00:28:48.400 --> 00:28:50.400
And you know, I'm I'm not in the industry.
00:28:50.480 --> 00:28:54.559
I'm it's the industry kind of operates as like an Illuminati.
00:28:55.119 --> 00:29:00.240
And uh and so I I can't say that's not right or that's not true.
00:29:00.400 --> 00:29:06.720
I mean I can't even I can't even Google, you know, I can't even Google it because I don't know you know what to Google and look for or whatever.
00:29:06.799 --> 00:29:13.920
I mean now that AI is around, maybe, maybe uh maybe one of these AI, you know, Claude or something can can find all the parts for me.
00:29:14.000 --> 00:29:24.400
But if if I didn't have uh somebody like you know that or have a relationship with somebody like that that would be able to tell me that, um, there's a possibility they still wouldn't have an elevator if that didn't happen.
00:29:24.720 --> 00:29:25.359
Yeah, yeah.
00:29:25.519 --> 00:29:26.319
I mean you're right.
00:29:26.400 --> 00:29:28.960
It's a it's a happy ending.
00:29:29.200 --> 00:29:43.839
It's unfortunate to have it wait so long for the happy ending, but but it does really point to who you know and having the right conversation and talking to the right person that that not only cares but knows knows how to go about uh finding it, making it happen.
00:29:44.079 --> 00:29:46.799
So yeah, yeah, thank you for for sharing that.
00:29:46.960 --> 00:29:52.319
Well let's let's talk just a minute about uh you know relationships a little bit before we we close out.
00:29:52.400 --> 00:29:53.519
I got a few more questions here.
00:29:53.599 --> 00:30:01.759
Um I'm just curious how much of a project success comes down to relationships versus the contracts, the specification, the paperwork, all that?
00:30:02.079 --> 00:30:09.519
I I tell every new estimator, every new employee here um that this industry is all about relationships.
00:30:09.680 --> 00:30:14.720
Um and it's about the the name on the center of the business card, not the logo in the corner.
00:30:14.960 --> 00:30:19.279
I I know lots of people in this industry that work for different companies, go to different industries.
00:30:19.440 --> 00:30:27.039
And I also tell them that, hey, you know, be prepared to be in this industry forever because even if you want to get out, you can't.
00:30:27.359 --> 00:30:36.400
Um I have a couple stories of a friend of mine um that I worked with when I was an apprentice back in uh 2008 when you know recession happened and stuff, whatever.
00:30:36.480 --> 00:30:42.960
He actually went to work at Fred Myers and he says, you know, I just you know it's a 40-hour paycheck every single week.
00:30:43.119 --> 00:30:44.880
Um so he got out of the industry.
00:30:45.119 --> 00:30:59.839
But uh Fred Myers started doing some remodeling, and you know, guess who got chosen to be the you know, the person communicating between the management and the different departments and the general contract or whatever, you know, it was it was him.
00:31:00.000 --> 00:31:13.839
And you know, similarly with uh the elevator we just finished, the guy that runs their golf course keeps getting brought in every time they do a new big project, not their smaller projects, but they're anytime it's a new big project, he gets brought in.
00:31:13.920 --> 00:31:20.480
He manages their golf course, but um he used to be a carpenter and he had a heart attack because of all the stress.
00:31:20.799 --> 00:31:26.400
And so every time they have a big project, he gets brought in to be their you know, construction manager form.
00:31:26.640 --> 00:31:36.240
And and this this last project with the elevator issue, he had to actually tell them, he goes, you know, look, I I'm not gonna do another, um, just gonna go back and manage the golf course.
00:31:36.400 --> 00:31:41.440
Um, otherwise I quit because it's just too much stress.
00:31:41.759 --> 00:31:44.319
So yeah, relationships are hugely important.
00:31:44.960 --> 00:31:45.839
Yeah, yeah.
00:31:46.079 --> 00:31:53.759
Well, um if you were hired tomorrow as a CEO of one of the major elevator companies, what's one thing you would change?
00:31:54.880 --> 00:32:04.799
You know, I it that's a that's a hard one because I'm guessing that the elevator companies are doing all right for themselves uh right now, whatever.
00:32:04.960 --> 00:32:12.799
So I think sometimes their mindset, you know, that I think the art of war had that uh within chaos or in midst of chaos, there's opportunity.
00:32:13.039 --> 00:32:18.799
So I think that's kind of the the the world that it feels like that's the world they kind of live in some days.
00:32:18.880 --> 00:32:38.000
But if I if I got you know put on as a CEO of a company, I think the first thing I would do is like send out a questionnaire to all of my clients and uh ask them, you know, what what can we have done better and how could we have been a better team member to you and uh see what the industry comes back with.
00:32:38.240 --> 00:32:53.839
Because you know, like we had talked about or whatever, that that having a contractor's point of view and having you know the architect's point of view and stuff like that in the elevator industry that we often don't get a glimpse into, it would be interesting to see what all how those responses would come back um to them.
00:32:54.000 --> 00:32:59.200
But ultimately the construction industry, you know, they don't want to admit it, but it's service, it's a service business.
00:32:59.359 --> 00:33:03.920
Um it's it to me it's not any different than you know going to a restaurant or something like that.
00:33:04.079 --> 00:33:11.680
If um I'm gonna continue to go to a restaurant that gives me better value and better service, and I'm even willing to pay more for it.
00:33:11.839 --> 00:33:26.079
And I think that that's where you know that especially the elevator industry could improve that or whatever, is is hey, if I know I'm getting better service from Company X, I don't care that they're 10% more than the others, or whatever.
00:33:26.160 --> 00:33:31.200
I know that I'm not gonna have this$300,000 mistake, they're gonna be a team player.
00:33:31.359 --> 00:33:37.359
Um, we're gonna talk about this project you know from the very beginning, and they're gonna make this a better project.
00:33:37.519 --> 00:33:45.359
And so right now, that's what at least the people that I talk to, that's not easy to do within the companies themselves, or whatever.
00:33:45.440 --> 00:33:56.079
It seems like just within the elevator companies, they have management at odds with salesmen, at odds with the service team and the installers and and things like that, or whatever.
00:33:56.240 --> 00:34:06.799
So if you know if that is truly what's happening, then it's hard for any of them to be able to service the client to the to the expectations, and that's probably why service business contractors are.
00:34:13.920 --> 00:34:15.119
I mean we're gonna pay more for it.
00:34:15.280 --> 00:34:26.400
And for the last question for you, where looking at the industry, what would you have to change in order for general contractor to be able to say working with elevators has become dramatically easier?
00:34:27.360 --> 00:34:29.119
I know that uh open communication.
00:34:30.719 --> 00:34:39.760
I mean, uh that seems like everybody needs that talk about communications, but no, elevators are typically kind of um tend to tell you more like what they need and not ask what you need.
00:34:39.920 --> 00:34:46.639
And that kind of goes to the next one team atmosphere or um or team attitude, you know that you know we're all building this whole project.
00:34:46.719 --> 00:34:49.360
We're not just building the elevator, we're not just putting flooring in.
00:34:49.519 --> 00:35:04.159
We're we're building, you know, a school for the community, we're building a church, we're building you know an apartment project, we're building a skyscraper, whatever it is, we're building something for somebody else, and that's what we need to look at is the end user's perspective of it.
00:35:04.320 --> 00:35:06.639
And the last one is employee retention.
00:35:06.880 --> 00:35:14.079
At least early in my career, um, I seem like you know, I've seen a lot of the same faces, always working for the same companies.
00:35:14.400 --> 00:35:23.360
And uh now from one project to the next project, I'm probably not dealing with the same salesman or um the same project managers or anything else, whatever.
00:35:23.599 --> 00:35:26.400
You know, they're either moving up, they're moving on, or they're moving out.
00:35:26.559 --> 00:35:45.920
I think that some of it is hopping between either employers, at other times they're they get promoted, they move up, and the next person is just kind of a new hire that, you know, uh that maybe was a great salesman, for example, and sold used cars or something, and it's not the same um need as the elevator sales industry.
00:35:46.000 --> 00:35:53.360
Um, or they get out of the elevator industry altogether and become a consultant or go to work at you know, selling insurance.
00:35:53.440 --> 00:35:54.400
I'm not I'm not sure.
00:35:54.800 --> 00:36:01.599
I'm not sure where they all go to, but it does seem like there's there's less in the industry and they're just not sticking around.
00:36:01.920 --> 00:36:08.960
Which makes it sound like uh a challenge for you to to have somebody you can consistently call and say, hey, you know, help me out here, right?
00:36:09.039 --> 00:36:11.039
Let's succeed on this project.
00:36:11.360 --> 00:36:18.639
I I I'll send bid invites to somebody and then I'll like four or five months later, I'll hear hear from somebody else over, hey, how come I'm not getting a bid invite from you?
00:36:18.719 --> 00:36:23.360
I'm like, I've been sending invites to so and so, and I'm like, oh, they haven't worked here for a few months or whatever.
00:36:23.519 --> 00:36:24.960
Okay, well, where's their emails going?
00:36:25.039 --> 00:36:29.760
Is it shouldn't somebody be looking over their emails and forwarding that on or something or whatever?
00:36:29.840 --> 00:36:34.960
And it's like that's the turnover is is so rampant that that's not even a thing.
00:36:35.119 --> 00:36:41.760
Um, otherwise, managers would probably be getting emails from 10 different former employees, you know, getting forwarded to them.
00:36:41.920 --> 00:36:54.880
So there's there's not somebody really checking on us again until some new salesman's hired, and then they're tasked with going out and trying to find customers, you know, and they say, Hey, we haven't gotten a bid invite in invites from Corsmo in two years, so go knock on their door and see what's going on.
00:36:55.119 --> 00:36:58.960
And that's when we find out that the salesman's not there and they haven't been getting any of our bid invites.
00:36:59.039 --> 00:36:59.440
So yeah.
00:36:59.760 --> 00:37:13.519
Yeah, no, it's uh it's great feedback, and I appreciate you just just bringing that up because and that that is the reason I wanted to have you on here is just give us some some feedback from the people we work with, the people that may be paying the bills and putting bread on on the industry's table.
00:37:13.679 --> 00:37:20.400
You know, it's like, hey, we need to there are things we can do to improve by listening to to customers and just hearing what the feedback is.
00:37:20.480 --> 00:37:20.880
So thank you.
00:37:21.119 --> 00:37:22.000
Yeah, absolutely.
00:37:22.320 --> 00:37:40.559
Yeah, I'm not an employer, so I would just say, you know, I I don't know why people are moving on or out or anything else, but uh moving up, um, obviously, you know, pay them more money and so that you know there's not you know that that you take that out of the equation.
00:37:40.800 --> 00:37:42.159
Yeah, yeah, I hear you.
00:37:42.320 --> 00:37:44.480
Well, Zayn, thank you so much for being with me today.
00:37:44.559 --> 00:37:45.280
I've enjoyed it.
00:37:45.440 --> 00:37:49.920
I appreciate your your insights and wish you the best as you keep building buildings.
00:37:50.159 --> 00:37:51.199
No, thank you for having me on.
00:37:51.280 --> 00:37:54.159
And like I said, this is uh it's been an insightful as well.
00:37:54.239 --> 00:38:06.800
Like I said, I learned something new talking with you, and also we kind of assume that the whole construction world operates just like we do here in the Pacific Northwest and find out that on the East Coast and some of the southeast and stuff, it's you know a little different.
00:38:06.960 --> 00:38:07.199
Yep.
00:38:07.360 --> 00:38:07.599
Yep.
00:38:07.760 --> 00:38:12.159
Well we can all learn from each other, and I I appreciate you uh taking some time to help us learn.
00:38:12.480 --> 00:38:13.199
Thank you.
00:38:13.519 --> 00:38:20.320
Thank you for listening to the Elevator Careers Podcast, sponsored by the Allred Group, a leader in elevator industry recruiting.
00:38:20.480 --> 00:38:28.000
Please visit our YouTube channel at Elevator Careers or check us out online at elevatorcareers.net.
00:38:28.159 --> 00:38:29.519
Please like and subscribe.
00:38:29.679 --> 00:38:31.920
And until next time, stay safe.
00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:04.959
The construction industry, the service business, it's to me it's not any different than going to a restaurant.
00:00:05.040 --> 00:00:09.199
I'm going to continue to go to a restaurant that gives me better value and better service.
00:00:09.359 --> 00:00:11.279
And I'm even willing to pay more for it.
00:00:11.439 --> 00:00:23.199
And I think that that's where just the elevator industry could improve is hey, if I know I'm getting better service from Company X, I don't care that they're 10% more than the other whatever.
00:00:23.359 --> 00:00:28.239
I know that I'm not going to have this$5,000 if there's going to be a team player.
00:00:28.399 --> 00:00:31.600
We're going to talk about this project from the very beginning.
00:00:32.640 --> 00:00:37.439
And welcome to the Elevator Careers Podcast, sponsored by the All Red Group.
00:00:37.759 --> 00:00:39.280
I am your host, at all.
00:01:00.960 --> 00:01:11.359
In this conversation, it offers an external field of elevator projects, what general contractors appreciate from elevator companies, where projects often go wrong, and how communication can prevent costing mistakes.
00:01:11.519 --> 00:01:17.920
This conversation shares valuable ways that contractors, project managers, and elevator contractors can build stronger partnerships.
00:01:18.239 --> 00:01:19.599
Zane, welcome to the show.
00:01:19.840 --> 00:01:20.719
How are you doing?
00:01:21.040 --> 00:01:21.760
Doing great.
00:01:21.920 --> 00:01:23.280
Thanks for being here with me today.
00:01:23.519 --> 00:01:24.560
Yes, thank you for having me.
00:01:24.719 --> 00:01:25.920
Yeah, no, I appreciate it.
00:01:26.079 --> 00:01:31.760
I uh I'm intrigued and kind of excited to get a general contractor's perspective.
00:01:31.920 --> 00:01:35.120
I I'm sure you've dealt with a lot of elevators over the years.
00:01:35.200 --> 00:01:35.840
Is that true?
00:01:36.159 --> 00:01:37.519
That that's that's very true.
00:01:37.599 --> 00:01:41.599
I probably 75% of the projects seem to have a elevator in them.
00:01:41.760 --> 00:01:43.280
And how long have you been doing it?
00:01:43.680 --> 00:01:46.319
Uh 26 years.
00:01:46.560 --> 00:01:46.879
Okay.
00:01:47.040 --> 00:01:47.280
Yeah.
00:01:47.439 --> 00:01:51.840
Uh no, actually, that back 20 uh 26 years or been 2000.
00:01:52.239 --> 00:01:54.239
So 29 years.
00:01:54.560 --> 00:01:55.120
Oh my.
00:01:55.280 --> 00:01:55.599
Okay.
00:01:55.840 --> 00:01:56.000
Yeah.
00:01:56.319 --> 00:01:59.280
Been at it for a while, and and you've you've seen a lot of different things.
00:01:59.439 --> 00:02:03.599
So uh obviously we'll get we'll get into some of the the details there.
00:02:03.760 --> 00:02:08.800
But uh you had said that um elevators are are kind of a black box to most contractors.
00:02:09.120 --> 00:02:15.759
I'm curious, when did you first realize elevators were were really different than pretty much any other trade on the project?
00:02:16.000 --> 00:02:28.479
Uh you know, it was it's funny when when I got in the trades, when I first got in the trades, my dad didn't really want me following in his footprint, you know, footsteps, but uh he wanted me to explore the other trades and get into a different trade.
00:02:28.639 --> 00:02:39.439
And talking to other people on job sites, you know, a lot of people like, if try to do it over again, I'd be an elevator mechanic, you know, or um, you know, hey, you're young enough, you should be, you know, joining the elevator union.
00:02:39.680 --> 00:02:47.520
So um that that kind of you know obviously sparked my interest um in understanding more on on why that is.
00:02:47.680 --> 00:03:07.759
But um, yeah, I said I don't know if it's the same now, but uh back when I got started, like I said, the elevator union didn't even really negotiate contracts or whatever, they just kind of did an average of the top three highest paid trades, and that you know, whatever they got as a raise, that's what their raise was uh every three years or whatever their contract links are.
00:03:07.919 --> 00:03:14.159
So um it's it's obviously always been kind of at the top of the pay scale uh of trades as well.
00:03:14.719 --> 00:03:15.680
Yeah, absolutely.
00:03:15.840 --> 00:03:19.280
What what was it that your father did that he was warning you to not do?
00:03:19.520 --> 00:03:24.560
Uh he was a hob carrier, so uh he was a laborer um that worked with uh Masons.
00:03:24.800 --> 00:03:26.000
Yeah, that's hard work.
00:03:26.479 --> 00:03:28.560
Yeah, I did it for 12 years.
00:03:29.120 --> 00:03:29.759
Yeah, yeah.
00:03:29.840 --> 00:03:37.919
I mean, I did like four months of of concrete work, like, you know, pre-college, and I was like, man, that's gonna keep me in college.
00:03:39.520 --> 00:03:40.719
Yeah, for sure.
00:03:40.960 --> 00:03:41.840
Yeah, yeah.
00:03:42.080 --> 00:03:46.000
Um, well, let's let's talk a little bit more about your experience with elevators.
00:03:46.080 --> 00:03:50.639
And um, I'm curious, what's the most expensive elevator mistake you've ever witnessed?
00:03:50.879 --> 00:03:51.759
And what happened?
00:03:52.080 --> 00:03:55.199
Yeah, it's it's funny you ask that because it's very fresh on the mind.
00:03:55.280 --> 00:03:58.639
It was actually the very last elevator that uh that we did.
00:03:58.960 --> 00:04:09.520
Um we uh just completed a project, it was only a four-story um edition, and it was estimated as a$300 mistake or error.
00:04:09.759 --> 00:04:18.480
Luckily, uh if you call it luck, but all the trades were locked into a TM rate and a and a certain limited markup.
00:04:18.639 --> 00:04:22.959
So at the end of the day, it'll end up costing the owner$240,000.
00:04:23.680 --> 00:04:47.759
But um what had happened was it was an addition on the building, and the building itself already had stairs right next to where we were adding, and so we had assumed that was the route of emergency egress, but the way the design team, the architects had uh designed this and permitted it, it was a standalone separate, basically separate building, even though it was attached to another building.
00:04:47.920 --> 00:04:50.319
And so the elevator was the egress.
00:04:50.399 --> 00:04:52.639
Um which sounds really dangerous to me, right?
00:04:52.720 --> 00:04:57.759
I mean, if you're talking about a fire, it's like no, you are gonna go on the elevator or yeah, exactly.
00:04:57.839 --> 00:05:09.360
It's it's it's funny um because like I said, after after looking into it, it falls under uh the IBC code or whatever, and it's basically it's for like buildings that are like 400 plus feet tall, right?
00:05:09.439 --> 00:05:11.519
That the the twin towers or something like that.
00:05:11.600 --> 00:05:15.680
They're not expecting everybody to go run down 40 flights of stairs.
00:05:15.920 --> 00:05:30.879
The occupants can get in the elevator themselves and go down and um exit the building so that the elevators continue to work and operate as a means of egress, which And that's supposed to happen with people who are panicking.
00:05:30.959 --> 00:05:41.279
I I'm just envisioning you know, some kind of airplane has crashed into the building and and people are gonna be nice and take turns and not kill each other getting in the elevator.
00:05:41.680 --> 00:05:43.199
Yeah, yeah, and I I agree.
00:05:43.279 --> 00:05:46.800
I said it's it's a it's a weird thing I've I've never ran into.
00:05:46.879 --> 00:06:01.600
Um and it's been I was trying to think if I've built a building over 400 feet, and I can't necessarily think of one off the top of my head, but it's been a long time since I've built any, you know, anything over 25 stories.
00:06:01.680 --> 00:06:09.360
So yeah, it's it's not something that we're used to, and again, it is something that's allowed in the code.
00:06:09.519 --> 00:06:15.360
Um, but why they did it on a four-story building and then they didn't design any of the other requirements of it.
00:06:15.519 --> 00:06:27.519
They just used that exception so that they didn't have to add more stairs, but didn't include all the necessary design in order for that to be an operational elevator in an emergency.
00:06:27.759 --> 00:06:32.319
Yeah, I mean it seems like they would need to create some kind of high performance.
00:06:32.480 --> 00:06:36.000
This is gonna work even if the building's on fire kind of setup.
00:06:36.079 --> 00:06:36.639
Is that true?
00:06:36.959 --> 00:06:49.360
Yeah, so that's that's why it costs so much as the elevator shaft has to become a three-hour um enclosure so that you know the the building can burn around it, but the elevator shaft will continue to work.
00:06:49.600 --> 00:07:12.160
Um it has to have its own generator power so that again, if the building's burning, that it's got power to run the elevator up and down, and it has to have a basically a fan at the top of the elevator to have smoke blow out so that you know the the elevator doesn't become engulfed in smoke and everybody die from smoke inhalation.
00:07:12.480 --> 00:07:19.360
Um so yeah, all these things had to be added to the project, and this happened while we were trying to get TCL.
00:07:19.600 --> 00:07:20.720
Right, so it's kind of last minute.
00:07:20.800 --> 00:07:24.240
It's like, oh, by the way, this won't work as is.
00:07:24.399 --> 00:07:30.160
So you said it cost$300,000, or it was estimated to cost$300,000 to fix, but didn't quite cost that much.
00:07:30.399 --> 00:07:31.839
Yeah, it didn't quite cost that much.
00:07:32.000 --> 00:07:34.560
$240,000 is still pretty painful.
00:07:34.879 --> 00:07:35.920
So what did they end up doing?
00:07:36.000 --> 00:07:45.759
Did they end up just tacking some stairs on, or did they actually go through and actually we had to go through and we added uh an additional layer of sheetrock around the elevator shaft.
00:07:45.920 --> 00:07:54.240
We had to hook it up to generator power, and we had to have a fan added at the top, and uh fire alarm had to get reworked, a couple other things.
00:07:54.319 --> 00:07:58.639
But yeah, that's that's what the cost ended up being was an extra 240,000 bucks.
00:07:58.879 --> 00:07:59.199
Wow.
00:07:59.279 --> 00:08:06.000
So it still is the egress and and now it's able to be used for that in in the case of emergency.
00:08:06.240 --> 00:08:14.480
It is, and the funny thing was is all the all the signage, the all the emergency exit signage that that uh was created for the project all says go down the stairs.
00:08:17.199 --> 00:08:39.360
Uh but okay, but in order for them not to design new stairs in the project, a gray area shortcut that the design team put in there, but um didn't understand what all else it entailed or what other scopes of work needed to be coordinated, um, along with you know just putting a elevator series XXX.45 type thing.
00:08:39.519 --> 00:08:40.879
So Right, right.
00:08:41.279 --> 00:08:51.600
How just in your opinion, how could that have been caught sooner so that it didn't cost not not only the the money at the end, but but it was obviously delayed in being able to be occupied.
00:08:51.919 --> 00:09:14.080
Well, I think number one, if there was something in the drawings and stuff that had said that that was what the intent of the elevator was, because even the elevator um subcontractor, um, they they knew that that elevator could be used for that purpose, and it really didn't affect the actual elevator subcontractor all that much, but it was um all the other trades.
00:09:14.159 --> 00:09:24.080
And so again, I don't I don't know because it was not a design build project, it was a another contractor that they'd had on during the earlier part of the project.
00:09:24.240 --> 00:09:27.840
So it was kind of like here's a set of plans, you know, start next week.
00:09:28.000 --> 00:09:30.480
That's what could have been done on our side of things.
00:09:30.639 --> 00:09:38.320
On their side of things, like I said, I I think that if the architects and design team knew what all the other ramifications were, that would be great.
00:09:38.480 --> 00:09:44.799
Uh somebody probably just said, Hey, I know about this code in the IBC that we can use so that we don't have to add stairs.
00:09:44.960 --> 00:09:47.519
And somebody else is like, Oh, great, you know, you're a genius.
00:09:47.759 --> 00:09:48.080
Do it.
00:09:48.480 --> 00:09:52.320
And um, and then they just moved on from there.
00:09:52.480 --> 00:09:55.679
And nobody else knew that that's what the purpose was.
00:09:56.000 --> 00:09:58.159
Yeah, till it till it came right down to the wire, right?
00:09:58.240 --> 00:10:02.639
I think you said they they were trying to move in the very day that that that all blew up.
00:10:02.879 --> 00:10:03.200
Correct.
00:10:03.279 --> 00:10:10.399
Yeah, they wanted to move furniture in, so we contacted Labor and Industry and they said, Yeah, this this can't operate like this.
00:10:10.480 --> 00:10:13.120
This is supposed to be have all these other components.
00:10:13.360 --> 00:10:15.039
So it was, yeah, definitely a curveball.
00:10:15.279 --> 00:10:16.240
Yeah, for sure, for sure.
00:10:16.399 --> 00:10:25.840
I mean, if you could sit every architect, owner, developer down in a room for five minutes, what elevator lessons would you make sure they understood before the next project?
00:10:26.879 --> 00:10:30.559
Um, I I believe that one size doesn't fit all.
00:10:30.799 --> 00:10:46.799
They often think, you know, okay, every elevator's got more specific things, but they can all kind of, you know, let's say fit in an eight foot by eight foot, you know, box, whatever, some of them one, eight foot six and some one eight foot two, and so on and so forth, but they can all get into a nine foot by nine foot.
00:10:46.879 --> 00:10:53.759
So they're just gonna go with a nine foot by nine foot or or whatever their thought process is behind it, they kind of think that they can do all of it.
00:10:53.919 --> 00:11:07.279
Or, you know, they just kind of cut and paste from the last project and they just think, oh yeah, this is a two-story, you know, a lot of it seems to really happen like on two-stop things where nobody thinks that the elevator is all that big a deal.
00:11:07.360 --> 00:11:10.320
They just they have to add it from the very first set of drawings.
00:11:10.480 --> 00:11:16.799
They draw a box on the floor plan and put a big X on it, and boom, that's what it is.
00:11:17.039 --> 00:11:21.039
Yeah, and they they nothing else is done with it until it's CDs.
00:11:21.200 --> 00:11:41.279
They grab some details and put them in there, and sometimes they're even supplied by the manufacturer, and specifications call for you know a specific elevator, but um the details that they threw in there weren't from that specific elevator, or they cut and paste, it's kind of an easy button type thing, and it definitely causes some issues, especially you know, here in Washington State.
00:11:41.360 --> 00:11:47.759
I mean, uh machine roomless elevators have been around for a long time, but they just started allowing you to not to actually have a machine room.
00:11:47.919 --> 00:11:52.559
So even though we've been having machine roomless elevators installed, they've all been installing the equipment.
00:11:52.799 --> 00:11:53.519
They still had a machine room.
00:11:55.440 --> 00:12:09.200
So so the design team now is like, oh, okay, now I can I got extra square footage, I can put, you know, an extra bedroom in there or or an extra classroom or whatever, but they don't understand where all that machine room is going or whatever.
00:12:09.279 --> 00:12:10.559
They're it's not disappearing.
00:12:10.639 --> 00:12:12.559
It's not that equipment isn't needed anymore.
00:12:12.639 --> 00:12:14.080
It's just being put in a different place.
00:12:14.240 --> 00:12:15.600
They're they're still trying to understand that.
00:12:15.840 --> 00:12:17.120
Yeah, yeah, understood.
00:12:17.279 --> 00:12:26.240
Um, so I I mean we've talked about this a little bit, but I'm just curious why you think elevator problems show up so late in a project instead of being caught by design.
00:12:26.399 --> 00:12:31.440
I mean, you would hope the designers would know that what they're designing, but but I guess sometimes they don't.
00:12:31.679 --> 00:12:58.879
Yeah, I I I think that they normally don't, and like I said, they either are grabbing something from another project or they're counting on, you know, hey, if I uh specify this specific elevator, then that manufacturer is gonna send me, you know, basically the submittal stuff, and I'm just gonna copy and paste that into my drawings, and the contractor is gonna know the price is gonna be there, everything else, but they don't actually go and coordinate with anybody else.
00:12:58.960 --> 00:13:08.960
They don't coordinate with their uh mechanical design team or their electrical design team, even you know, their their own walls uh see and ceiling assemblies and things.
00:13:09.120 --> 00:13:24.159
And so again, I I think I just said this, but they basically put a box on a floor plan and that's where it stays until the end of the design when they start thinking about what do I want the inside of this elevator to look like, what's the flooring material, what's the the wall paneling, and what's the ceiling paneling is going to be.
00:13:24.320 --> 00:13:27.039
And that's when they start thinking about the elevator again.
00:13:27.279 --> 00:13:45.279
And by then, any changes would require them moving walls that start affecting maybe some ADA compliance issues and turnaround stuff, or plumbing walls, stuff like that, or or worse, we've poured elevator pits and then found out there's this machine roomless elevator, needs an extra foot of elevator pit.
00:13:45.440 --> 00:13:48.320
And so, like, okay, what what do you want us to do?
00:13:48.480 --> 00:13:51.519
And so we end up cutting up a elevator pit we just installed.
00:13:51.759 --> 00:13:55.279
And going a foot deeper and and pouring another one, is that yeah.
00:13:55.440 --> 00:13:58.879
I mean, that's that's what it's it's had to have been on some projects.
00:13:59.039 --> 00:14:02.080
Um even something as silly as waterproofing.
00:14:02.559 --> 00:14:06.720
So I every project I estimate I always put waterproofing around the elevator pit.
00:14:06.799 --> 00:14:08.720
It's just my process or whatever.
00:14:08.799 --> 00:14:13.759
I think that every elevator pit needs uh waterproofing around it, whether it's in a water table or not.
00:14:13.840 --> 00:14:22.559
Um, but like I said, a lot of times, again, because they're not thinking about that elevator pit, they just think about my footings are only two feet deep and I'm not in a water table.
00:14:22.720 --> 00:14:26.320
Well, but your elevator pit is six feet below that.
00:14:26.480 --> 00:14:28.559
And so maybe you are in a water table.
00:14:28.720 --> 00:14:31.600
That's usually while we're digging a hole or something like that.
00:14:31.759 --> 00:14:36.159
The question gets brought up and everybody's like, oh shoot, you know, I didn't think about that.
00:14:36.320 --> 00:14:42.320
And so we're adding waterproofing, which again is a cost to the owner because we didn't anticipate it, it wasn't shown in the drawings.
00:14:42.480 --> 00:14:52.639
And then unless again, like we're hired as a design builder or we're brought on early to be able to help um coordinate some of these things, but um even then sometimes these things get get missed.
00:14:52.720 --> 00:14:56.879
We'll we'll talk about it, and sometimes it still doesn't all get coordinated in the drawing.
00:14:57.120 --> 00:14:59.440
Yeah, well, obviously there's a lot of complexity there, right?
00:14:59.519 --> 00:15:18.080
So it's it it does take effort, take some, you know, being aware, being conscious of okay, this is a very complex system, a lot of requirements, different codes, and not that everybody needs to know, but uh, I'm curious how many, I mean, percentage-wise, how many elevator projects get a little sideways and end up costing more than expected?
00:15:18.320 --> 00:15:25.039
I would say that probably at least 25% end up costing more than expected.
00:15:25.519 --> 00:15:28.320
Uh they're not all usually extreme.
00:15:28.399 --> 00:15:31.919
You know, usually it's you know a thousand bucks here, a couple thousand bucks there.
00:15:32.080 --> 00:15:43.440
Sometimes it's you know more like having to have an elevator operator, operating the elevator during you know, the owner's move in or something like that because we're, you know, they want to move in before you got C of O on the project.
00:15:43.679 --> 00:15:47.120
Um, you know, that those are kind of the simple ones or whatever.
00:15:47.279 --> 00:15:55.600
Sometimes it's you know, a a drywaller, you know, ran some screws, too long of screws into the elevator pit or the shaft area.
00:15:55.840 --> 00:15:58.240
To me, or whatever, it doesn't interfere with anything.
00:15:58.399 --> 00:16:03.279
So I don't know what the big deal is, but um, it's a big deal in the elevator uh world or whatever.
00:16:03.360 --> 00:16:10.320
They don't want any screw heads poking in the wall, even if it is you know eight, nine inches away from the actual elevator itself.
00:16:10.399 --> 00:16:15.279
Um, and so we've had to fix some of those things, you know, they get caught during an elevator.
00:16:15.440 --> 00:16:24.960
In fact, as a company now, I was just teaching a new project manager we hired last week uh that on our projects I always have money in the estimate for pre-inspection.
00:16:25.039 --> 00:16:37.519
So we'll hop in the elevator, write it with the elevator subcontractor, and point out all the stuff that the inspector's gonna catch so that we when the inspector shows up, we always pass and don't have an issue with it.
00:16:37.600 --> 00:16:48.799
Because right now, at least uh in the Seattle area, um there's only a handful of inspectors, and so you know, it may be you know a couple weeks before he's able to come back out and inspect your elevator.
00:16:48.960 --> 00:16:55.919
So usually the schedule doesn't allow for, oh, we didn't pass it, you know, we'll just wait two weeks and then pass in two weeks.
00:16:56.080 --> 00:16:57.679
Um so that's why uh we do it.
00:16:57.759 --> 00:17:11.519
Like I said, it's it's more of an insurance than anything else or whatever, and it's usually a thousand bucks or something or whatever to spend you know half a day running up and down the elevator shaft with the subcontractor and fixing cocaine or any other little thing that we all spot.
00:17:11.839 --> 00:17:13.519
I mean, how much does that thousand bucks save you?
00:17:13.599 --> 00:17:18.160
That sounds like it's a pretty smart idea to just do that and make sure you're good.
00:17:18.240 --> 00:17:20.720
But I mean, if you didn't do it, what would that look like?
00:17:20.960 --> 00:17:43.359
Um it well, I mean, depending on where how it affects the the schedule, I mean it could be, you know,$25,000 thing or whatever, or if you're trying to get C of O and you're right up against it and you don't have you know a day or two in your schedule, um, it it could be very costly because you could have um liquidated damages from the owner that are$10,000 a day.
00:17:43.599 --> 00:17:49.920
Um and so if you're waiting two weeks for that inspector to come back, buy or whatever, that's$140,000.
00:17:50.240 --> 00:17:50.799
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:17:50.960 --> 00:17:54.960
Well, I mean it's it sounds like uh just a little bit of pre-planning, right?
00:17:55.039 --> 00:17:57.839
You you get out ahead of it, do what you can, right?
00:17:57.920 --> 00:18:06.079
You may not catch absolutely everything, but uh just in other words, there could be something like what you plan the egress, like the one you talked about at the beginning, right?
00:18:06.160 --> 00:18:15.599
There could be something that just comes out of left field and you never saw it, but it sounds like you're at least getting ahead of of what you can control, what you can think of, and saving yourself that headache.
00:18:15.839 --> 00:18:16.319
Correct, yeah.
00:18:16.400 --> 00:18:25.440
And and again, it kind of goes back to your last question of if I have to spend a thousand bucks, but I know that 25% of the time I'm gonna be spending a thousand bucks anyway on a on a mistake.
00:18:25.519 --> 00:18:28.799
Um it's it's never seems to be a wasted amount of money.
00:18:29.039 --> 00:18:30.160
Yeah, absolutely.
00:18:30.480 --> 00:18:31.440
Hey there, listeners.
00:18:31.519 --> 00:18:35.519
It's Matt, and I would love to know what you want to hear more of on the podcast.
00:18:35.680 --> 00:18:46.319
If you have a topic in mind or a guest you'd like to hear from, head over to elevatorcareers.net and drop a suggestion in the box, or you can email podcast at elevatorcareers.net.
00:18:46.640 --> 00:18:48.559
The link will also be in the description below.
00:18:48.720 --> 00:18:51.119
Thank you so much for being part of this conversation.
00:18:51.359 --> 00:18:53.119
Now, back to the show.
00:18:53.920 --> 00:19:01.599
Um I mean, do elevator systems tend to create more surprises, change orders, frustration than other building systems in your experience?
00:19:01.920 --> 00:19:02.559
Well, a couple things.
00:19:02.640 --> 00:19:08.960
Number one, usually the the changes are more expensive, more more they're there's a bigger dollar value to them.
00:19:09.200 --> 00:19:15.039
Um and and I think it goes back to, like I said, they're they're one of the higher paid trades on any project or whatever.
00:19:15.119 --> 00:19:28.960
So if I'm having to pay them eight hours because I wasn't ready for something or things like that, or you know, pay a crew to go home, that adds up very quickly as opposed to, you know, maybe my landscaper or my foreign guy or something like that.
00:19:29.279 --> 00:19:34.319
Planting the wrong flowers is not as costly as installing the wrong elevator, I think what you're saying.
00:19:34.640 --> 00:19:35.680
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
00:19:35.920 --> 00:19:41.039
And um, and so like I said, I don't know that it generates more change orders.
00:19:41.119 --> 00:19:46.640
I mean, I don't know that that's the case or whatever, but again, the the change orders seem to have a little bit more pain to them.
00:19:47.039 --> 00:19:48.480
Yeah, yeah, understood.
00:19:48.559 --> 00:19:55.839
They they sting a little bit more than than other ones that uh that you can just kind of handle quickly and and just part of doing business.
00:19:56.079 --> 00:20:02.319
Um you uh you said that owners you know are the are the ones that a lot of times end up taking it in the shorts, quote unquote.
00:20:02.400 --> 00:20:07.519
Uh what are some ways building owners maybe unknowingly create some of their elevator problems?
00:20:07.680 --> 00:20:08.559
Have you seen that?
00:20:09.039 --> 00:20:14.960
Yeah, I the biggest thing for them is that they have to live with this elevator forever.
00:20:15.119 --> 00:20:26.640
I mean, it's uh on on any building or any project or whatever, if an owner decides, you know, hey, I don't like you know the brick on the outside, you know, we can re tear the brick off and replace it with siding.
00:20:26.720 --> 00:20:29.359
Um or if they don't like a color, we can repaint something.
00:20:29.599 --> 00:20:36.319
If you know the flooring gets outdated, you know, we can replace and upgrade flooring five years, ten years, twenty years down the road.
00:20:36.480 --> 00:20:42.880
You you're not going and pulling an elevator out after five or ten years or something like that or whatever.
00:20:42.960 --> 00:20:44.799
It's it's there forever.
00:20:45.039 --> 00:20:53.200
So um picking you know the right elevator and the right company to maintain it and and can service it is is important.
00:20:53.359 --> 00:20:57.519
So I think that's uh you know something that maybe owners maybe don't fully understand.
00:20:57.599 --> 00:21:01.279
They they think of, I'm saving some money choosing you know Company X.
00:21:01.440 --> 00:21:07.440
Well, Company X doesn't have any maintenance people in the area, or they're you know, overbooked all the time.
00:21:07.680 --> 00:21:16.160
So when the elevator's down and they uh say, oh, well I'll be out there to fix it in two weeks, that's that's not really an acceptable um deal.
00:21:16.319 --> 00:21:19.599
So then you're you know, as an owner, then you say, Okay, well, what can I do?
00:21:19.680 --> 00:21:20.640
I need this fixed right away.
00:21:20.799 --> 00:21:26.640
So then you're like, okay, well, we can get out there, but we're gonna charge you overtime or weekend rates or stuff like that.
00:21:26.799 --> 00:21:36.880
So um, like I said, understanding the life cycle um of the elevator, I think, is is very important for owners and usually where um they kind of create their own their own problems.
00:21:37.119 --> 00:21:37.680
Yeah, yeah.
00:21:37.839 --> 00:21:46.720
Well, and this this question just came to mind, which is I hear people talk about sometimes, you know, developers go in, they know they're not gonna keep it, they're just kind of building it, you know, flipping it, selling.
00:21:46.880 --> 00:21:52.000
And so so what they're buying an elevator for is very different from somebody who is gonna own it for the next twenty ten, twenty years.
00:21:52.079 --> 00:21:53.119
Do you ever see that show up?
00:21:53.359 --> 00:21:59.279
In in multifamilies, up until COVID, you know, we did a lot of multifamily in this area.
00:21:59.440 --> 00:22:01.839
And And yeah, that's exactly what happened, or whatever.
00:22:02.000 --> 00:22:07.440
I mean, I I worked on one project where it was like a 18-month construction period.
00:22:07.599 --> 00:22:12.000
Somewhere during construction, the original people that hired us sold the project.
00:22:12.160 --> 00:22:17.759
And then eight weeks after we were complete, the second owners sold that project.
00:22:17.920 --> 00:22:21.759
So within you know, like less than two years, that project was already sold twice.
00:22:21.839 --> 00:22:33.119
And each time, you know, we had like a I think it was a$23 million construction contract on the project, and we'd seen in the paper that while we were doing construction, they sold it for like$35 million or something like that.
00:22:33.279 --> 00:22:33.680
Wow.
00:22:33.920 --> 00:22:41.839
And then it was sold for um like$48 million, again, like eight weeks after uh we we finished building it.
00:22:41.920 --> 00:22:46.960
So they they'd basically doubled their investment in it, you know, in those two years.
00:22:47.119 --> 00:22:58.799
Um, but anyway, yes, uh, in that case, that's exactly what it was was the design started with two elevators, and um the owner is like, we don't need two elevators, we only need one elevator.
00:22:58.880 --> 00:23:07.200
And it's like, well, the the original people that we started design with wanted two elevators in case one was broke down, the residents could still use the other elevator.
00:23:07.440 --> 00:23:07.920
Sure.
00:23:08.240 --> 00:23:11.279
And the the new people are like, they didn't care.
00:23:11.359 --> 00:23:14.160
We're gonna but they knew we're gonna sell it.
00:23:14.319 --> 00:23:29.759
So we want one elevator, and you know, the lowest speeds possible is fine with us, you know, whatever the lowest cost denominator is, we want the lowest finish, lowest cost finishes inside, because that adds no value to what we're gonna um sell it for.
00:23:29.839 --> 00:23:37.599
Um it adds a huge amount of value to the actual project, but it doesn't add anything to the actual value and when you go and try to resell it.
00:23:37.680 --> 00:23:38.000
Yeah.
00:23:38.319 --> 00:23:39.200
Wow, fascinating.
00:23:39.279 --> 00:23:40.880
So yeah, to your to your point, right?
00:23:40.960 --> 00:23:48.720
It's uh if you're the third owner, you're and if you're gonna keep it, you you're gonna care a little bit more than than the first two that are just like, yeah.
00:23:49.519 --> 00:23:50.160
I don't care at all.
00:23:50.400 --> 00:23:50.720
Yeah.
00:23:51.039 --> 00:23:51.200
Yeah.
00:23:51.279 --> 00:23:56.400
So sometimes the owners make problems for other owners down the road.
00:23:56.960 --> 00:23:57.920
Yeah, absolutely.
00:23:58.079 --> 00:23:58.400
Yeah.
00:23:58.559 --> 00:24:08.319
So uh you you told me about a project in that area, Battered Women's Shelter, where people were saying, hey, there's not even an elevator solution possible.
00:24:08.799 --> 00:24:11.279
And then somebody stepped up and found a way.
00:24:11.440 --> 00:24:12.640
Tell me more about that.
00:24:12.880 --> 00:24:13.519
Yeah, yeah.
00:24:13.599 --> 00:24:17.200
So I um I want to say it was like around 2000-ish.
00:24:17.519 --> 00:24:19.279
Um it was it was a long time ago.
00:24:19.440 --> 00:24:30.000
The it was the YWCA locally here, had bought in a building and wanted to renovate it into a woman's battered shelter basically for women and children escaping domestic violence.
00:24:30.240 --> 00:24:39.680
It was an emergency place or whatever, so the tenants weren't gonna be there more than you know, like I think 60, 90 days or something like that, or whatever, and then they'd move them into more uh transitional housing.
00:24:39.839 --> 00:24:48.160
So we renovated it, but during that renovation, the elevator could not be brought up to code and it was red tagged.
00:24:48.480 --> 00:24:50.880
Kind of an older build-how old was that building, if I may.
00:24:50.960 --> 00:24:53.279
Uh yeah, I want to say it was like 1920.
00:24:53.519 --> 00:24:54.000
Oh wow.
00:24:54.720 --> 00:24:58.400
Um yeah, I think that's I think that's about when it was about 1920.
00:24:58.720 --> 00:25:04.000
And so, yeah, they they everybody said that the new modern elevators couldn't fit in a small shaft.
00:25:04.079 --> 00:25:04.240
Right.
00:25:04.480 --> 00:25:26.240
Um, and so we had gotten prices to add an exterior elevator to the building, and it was, you know, far exceeded their budget, and uh, we found out that hey, it was grandfathered in, you don't actually need the working elevator, but you know, all these women and children were gonna have to be using the stairs with their groceries and strollers and everything else.
00:25:26.480 --> 00:25:27.839
What tall was the building?
00:25:28.079 --> 00:25:37.359
Um it was it was five stories, but you actually uh came in, residents actually came in on on the lower basement floor.
00:25:37.599 --> 00:25:42.400
So they actually go up you know a set of stairs to the lobby areas to begin with.
00:25:42.559 --> 00:25:47.839
So so yeah, so they're you know roughly 40-50 feet that they're you know walking upstairs.
00:25:47.920 --> 00:25:56.960
But I stayed in contact uh with them over the years, and usually about every three or four years, you know, they were they were fundraising, trying to raise the money.
00:25:57.119 --> 00:26:01.279
And every three or four years they'd reach out and say, Hey, can can we get an updated price on this?
00:26:01.440 --> 00:26:08.160
And so I would, and and construction costs kept outpacing their ability to fundraise.
00:26:08.480 --> 00:26:18.160
And um they ended up hiring an architect, they designed this exterior shaft, they were actually gonna have to lose one of their apartment units in order to get this um in and everything else.
00:26:18.319 --> 00:26:22.319
And then finally, um, I want to say it was like 2018 or something like that.
00:26:22.480 --> 00:26:26.559
They said, Hey, we think we we have you know the money or close to it.
00:26:26.640 --> 00:26:27.839
Can you provide an estimate?
00:26:28.000 --> 00:26:34.960
Right about that time, friend Jeremy um had gotten out of, he was working for you know one of the big name brand elevator contractors.
00:26:35.039 --> 00:26:37.839
He was starting his own deal, and I said, Hey, this is perfect timing.
00:26:38.160 --> 00:26:39.599
Um, I'd love to help you out.
00:26:39.680 --> 00:26:41.039
I'm working on this project.
00:26:41.200 --> 00:26:47.440
Can you help me out with the with the price so they know if they're close enough with their uh fundraising that they can pull the trigger?
00:26:47.759 --> 00:26:53.279
And uh, you know, after looking at it, he's like, you know, Zayn, why aren't we just putting something in the existing elevator shaft?
00:26:53.440 --> 00:26:57.519
And I'm like, everybody has told me that it can't fit in the modern elevator, cannot fit in that thing.
00:26:57.680 --> 00:27:04.880
And we had every major manufacturer uh looking at this thing, and he says, he says, I think I can.
00:27:05.039 --> 00:27:05.759
I think I can do that.
00:27:05.920 --> 00:27:09.039
Give give me a couple weeks and let me see what I can do.
00:27:09.200 --> 00:27:18.319
And he started sourcing the parts from all over the country and he was able to come up with you know parts and pieces from different elevator manufacturers that all fit inside that.
00:27:18.480 --> 00:27:35.920
We had to make some modifications, so there was some additional costs, but they had raised about a million dollars over the dozen plus years, and we had estimated this is gonna be 1.25 uh million bucks, and Jeremy came in with a price of like 250,000 bucks for the elevator.
00:27:36.079 --> 00:27:36.480
Wow.
00:27:36.640 --> 00:27:51.519
Um, with all the other stuff, um, I think all in, it was like 400,000 bucks, and so you know, we didn't even use up half of their budget to put this in, and they didn't lose a unit, so they were able to continue to have you know have families stay in those units every 90 days.
00:27:51.680 --> 00:27:54.960
Um I mean it was just a great story um all the way around.
00:27:55.039 --> 00:28:20.559
The the client couldn't have been happier with you know everybody about it, but I just kept thinking in my head, is as good as that makes you feel and and heartwarming as it as it is, if somebody else just would have been more concerned with helping out this you know nonprofit agency instead of selling something that comes in their you know one of their boxes, we could have had this elevator for them, you know, 10 plus years sooner.
00:28:20.799 --> 00:28:23.759
And it probably would have cost far less back then.
00:28:24.079 --> 00:28:44.559
So it is again as great as the story is, the it kind of sucked that, like I said, nobody else in the industry said, Hey, why don't you go reach out to this company who's out of Arizona or this company that's out of Utah or this company that's over in Florida or anything else where I mean none of that none of those conversations happened.
00:28:44.720 --> 00:28:46.400
It was just uh no, it can't happen.
00:28:46.480 --> 00:28:48.160
No modern elevator can fit in there.
00:28:48.400 --> 00:28:50.400
And you know, I'm I'm not in the industry.
00:28:50.480 --> 00:28:54.559
I'm it's the industry kind of operates as like an Illuminati.
00:28:55.119 --> 00:29:00.240
And uh and so I I can't say that's not right or that's not true.
00:29:00.400 --> 00:29:06.720
I mean I can't even I can't even Google, you know, I can't even Google it because I don't know you know what to Google and look for or whatever.
00:29:06.799 --> 00:29:13.920
I mean now that AI is around, maybe, maybe uh maybe one of these AI, you know, Claude or something can can find all the parts for me.
00:29:14.000 --> 00:29:24.400
But if if I didn't have uh somebody like you know that or have a relationship with somebody like that that would be able to tell me that, um, there's a possibility they still wouldn't have an elevator if that didn't happen.
00:29:24.720 --> 00:29:25.359
Yeah, yeah.
00:29:25.519 --> 00:29:26.319
I mean you're right.
00:29:26.400 --> 00:29:28.960
It's a it's a happy ending.
00:29:29.200 --> 00:29:43.839
It's unfortunate to have it wait so long for the happy ending, but but it does really point to who you know and having the right conversation and talking to the right person that that not only cares but knows knows how to go about uh finding it, making it happen.
00:29:44.079 --> 00:29:46.799
So yeah, yeah, thank you for for sharing that.
00:29:46.960 --> 00:29:52.319
Well let's let's talk just a minute about uh you know relationships a little bit before we we close out.
00:29:52.400 --> 00:29:53.519
I got a few more questions here.
00:29:53.599 --> 00:30:01.759
Um I'm just curious how much of a project success comes down to relationships versus the contracts, the specification, the paperwork, all that?
00:30:02.079 --> 00:30:09.519
I I tell every new estimator, every new employee here um that this industry is all about relationships.
00:30:09.680 --> 00:30:14.720
Um and it's about the the name on the center of the business card, not the logo in the corner.
00:30:14.960 --> 00:30:19.279
I I know lots of people in this industry that work for different companies, go to different industries.
00:30:19.440 --> 00:30:27.039
And I also tell them that, hey, you know, be prepared to be in this industry forever because even if you want to get out, you can't.
00:30:27.359 --> 00:30:36.400
Um I have a couple stories of a friend of mine um that I worked with when I was an apprentice back in uh 2008 when you know recession happened and stuff, whatever.
00:30:36.480 --> 00:30:42.960
He actually went to work at Fred Myers and he says, you know, I just you know it's a 40-hour paycheck every single week.
00:30:43.119 --> 00:30:44.880
Um so he got out of the industry.
00:30:45.119 --> 00:30:59.839
But uh Fred Myers started doing some remodeling, and you know, guess who got chosen to be the you know, the person communicating between the management and the different departments and the general contract or whatever, you know, it was it was him.
00:31:00.000 --> 00:31:13.839
And you know, similarly with uh the elevator we just finished, the guy that runs their golf course keeps getting brought in every time they do a new big project, not their smaller projects, but they're anytime it's a new big project, he gets brought in.
00:31:13.920 --> 00:31:20.480
He manages their golf course, but um he used to be a carpenter and he had a heart attack because of all the stress.
00:31:20.799 --> 00:31:26.400
And so every time they have a big project, he gets brought in to be their you know, construction manager form.
00:31:26.640 --> 00:31:36.240
And and this this last project with the elevator issue, he had to actually tell them, he goes, you know, look, I I'm not gonna do another, um, just gonna go back and manage the golf course.
00:31:36.400 --> 00:31:41.440
Um, otherwise I quit because it's just too much stress.
00:31:41.759 --> 00:31:44.319
So yeah, relationships are hugely important.
00:31:44.960 --> 00:31:45.839
Yeah, yeah.
00:31:46.079 --> 00:31:53.759
Well, um if you were hired tomorrow as a CEO of one of the major elevator companies, what's one thing you would change?
00:31:54.880 --> 00:32:04.799
You know, I it that's a that's a hard one because I'm guessing that the elevator companies are doing all right for themselves uh right now, whatever.
00:32:04.960 --> 00:32:12.799
So I think sometimes their mindset, you know, that I think the art of war had that uh within chaos or in midst of chaos, there's opportunity.
00:32:13.039 --> 00:32:18.799
So I think that's kind of the the the world that it feels like that's the world they kind of live in some days.
00:32:18.880 --> 00:32:38.000
But if I if I got you know put on as a CEO of a company, I think the first thing I would do is like send out a questionnaire to all of my clients and uh ask them, you know, what what can we have done better and how could we have been a better team member to you and uh see what the industry comes back with.
00:32:38.240 --> 00:32:53.839
Because you know, like we had talked about or whatever, that that having a contractor's point of view and having you know the architect's point of view and stuff like that in the elevator industry that we often don't get a glimpse into, it would be interesting to see what all how those responses would come back um to them.
00:32:54.000 --> 00:32:59.200
But ultimately the construction industry, you know, they don't want to admit it, but it's service, it's a service business.
00:32:59.359 --> 00:33:03.920
Um it's it to me it's not any different than you know going to a restaurant or something like that.
00:33:04.079 --> 00:33:11.680
If um I'm gonna continue to go to a restaurant that gives me better value and better service, and I'm even willing to pay more for it.
00:33:11.839 --> 00:33:26.079
And I think that that's where you know that especially the elevator industry could improve that or whatever, is is hey, if I know I'm getting better service from Company X, I don't care that they're 10% more than the others, or whatever.
00:33:26.160 --> 00:33:31.200
I know that I'm not gonna have this$300,000 mistake, they're gonna be a team player.
00:33:31.359 --> 00:33:37.359
Um, we're gonna talk about this project you know from the very beginning, and they're gonna make this a better project.
00:33:37.519 --> 00:33:45.359
And so right now, that's what at least the people that I talk to, that's not easy to do within the companies themselves, or whatever.
00:33:45.440 --> 00:33:56.079
It seems like just within the elevator companies, they have management at odds with salesmen, at odds with the service team and the installers and and things like that, or whatever.
00:33:56.240 --> 00:34:06.799
So if you know if that is truly what's happening, then it's hard for any of them to be able to service the client to the to the expectations, and that's probably why service business contractors are.
00:34:13.920 --> 00:34:15.119
I mean we're gonna pay more for it.
00:34:15.280 --> 00:34:26.400
And for the last question for you, where looking at the industry, what would you have to change in order for general contractor to be able to say working with elevators has become dramatically easier?
00:34:27.360 --> 00:34:29.119
I know that uh open communication.
00:34:30.719 --> 00:34:39.760
I mean, uh that seems like everybody needs that talk about communications, but no, elevators are typically kind of um tend to tell you more like what they need and not ask what you need.
00:34:39.920 --> 00:34:46.639
And that kind of goes to the next one team atmosphere or um or team attitude, you know that you know we're all building this whole project.
00:34:46.719 --> 00:34:49.360
We're not just building the elevator, we're not just putting flooring in.
00:34:49.519 --> 00:35:04.159
We're we're building, you know, a school for the community, we're building a church, we're building you know an apartment project, we're building a skyscraper, whatever it is, we're building something for somebody else, and that's what we need to look at is the end user's perspective of it.
00:35:04.320 --> 00:35:06.639
And the last one is employee retention.
00:35:06.880 --> 00:35:14.079
At least early in my career, um, I seem like you know, I've seen a lot of the same faces, always working for the same companies.
00:35:14.400 --> 00:35:23.360
And uh now from one project to the next project, I'm probably not dealing with the same salesman or um the same project managers or anything else, whatever.
00:35:23.599 --> 00:35:26.400
You know, they're either moving up, they're moving on, or they're moving out.
00:35:26.559 --> 00:35:45.920
I think that some of it is hopping between either employers, at other times they're they get promoted, they move up, and the next person is just kind of a new hire that, you know, uh that maybe was a great salesman, for example, and sold used cars or something, and it's not the same um need as the elevator sales industry.
00:35:46.000 --> 00:35:53.360
Um, or they get out of the elevator industry altogether and become a consultant or go to work at you know, selling insurance.
00:35:53.440 --> 00:35:54.400
I'm not I'm not sure.
00:35:54.800 --> 00:36:01.599
I'm not sure where they all go to, but it does seem like there's there's less in the industry and they're just not sticking around.
00:36:01.920 --> 00:36:08.960
Which makes it sound like uh a challenge for you to to have somebody you can consistently call and say, hey, you know, help me out here, right?
00:36:09.039 --> 00:36:11.039
Let's succeed on this project.
00:36:11.360 --> 00:36:18.639
I I I'll send bid invites to somebody and then I'll like four or five months later, I'll hear hear from somebody else over, hey, how come I'm not getting a bid invite from you?
00:36:18.719 --> 00:36:23.360
I'm like, I've been sending invites to so and so, and I'm like, oh, they haven't worked here for a few months or whatever.
00:36:23.519 --> 00:36:24.960
Okay, well, where's their emails going?
00:36:25.039 --> 00:36:29.760
Is it shouldn't somebody be looking over their emails and forwarding that on or something or whatever?
00:36:29.840 --> 00:36:34.960
And it's like that's the turnover is is so rampant that that's not even a thing.
00:36:35.119 --> 00:36:41.760
Um, otherwise, managers would probably be getting emails from 10 different former employees, you know, getting forwarded to them.
00:36:41.920 --> 00:36:54.880
So there's there's not somebody really checking on us again until some new salesman's hired, and then they're tasked with going out and trying to find customers, you know, and they say, Hey, we haven't gotten a bid invite in invites from Corsmo in two years, so go knock on their door and see what's going on.
00:36:55.119 --> 00:36:58.960
And that's when we find out that the salesman's not there and they haven't been getting any of our bid invites.
00:36:59.039 --> 00:36:59.440
So yeah.
00:36:59.760 --> 00:37:13.519
Yeah, no, it's uh it's great feedback, and I appreciate you just just bringing that up because and that that is the reason I wanted to have you on here is just give us some some feedback from the people we work with, the people that may be paying the bills and putting bread on on the industry's table.
00:37:13.679 --> 00:37:20.400
You know, it's like, hey, we need to there are things we can do to improve by listening to to customers and just hearing what the feedback is.
00:37:20.480 --> 00:37:20.880
So thank you.
00:37:21.119 --> 00:37:22.000
Yeah, absolutely.
00:37:22.320 --> 00:37:40.559
Yeah, I'm not an employer, so I would just say, you know, I I don't know why people are moving on or out or anything else, but uh moving up, um, obviously, you know, pay them more money and so that you know there's not you know that that you take that out of the equation.
00:37:40.800 --> 00:37:42.159
Yeah, yeah, I hear you.
00:37:42.320 --> 00:37:44.480
Well, Zayn, thank you so much for being with me today.
00:37:44.559 --> 00:37:45.280
I've enjoyed it.
00:37:45.440 --> 00:37:49.920
I appreciate your your insights and wish you the best as you keep building buildings.
00:37:50.159 --> 00:37:51.199
No, thank you for having me on.
00:37:51.280 --> 00:37:54.159
And like I said, this is uh it's been an insightful as well.
00:37:54.239 --> 00:38:06.800
Like I said, I learned something new talking with you, and also we kind of assume that the whole construction world operates just like we do here in the Pacific Northwest and find out that on the East Coast and some of the southeast and stuff, it's you know a little different.
00:38:06.960 --> 00:38:07.199
Yep.
00:38:07.360 --> 00:38:07.599
Yep.
00:38:07.760 --> 00:38:12.159
Well we can all learn from each other, and I I appreciate you uh taking some time to help us learn.
00:38:12.480 --> 00:38:13.199
Thank you.
00:38:13.519 --> 00:38:20.320
Thank you for listening to the Elevator Careers Podcast, sponsored by the Allred Group, a leader in elevator industry recruiting.
00:38:20.480 --> 00:38:28.000
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00:38:28.159 --> 00:38:29.519
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