109 - Principle To Practice with Annemarie Rivers and Al James

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This file was generated by Descript
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AL: so I'm here with Emory Rivers.
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We're colleagues in the ministry
support team at YouthWorks.
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Which region are we from?
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Emory
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Annemarie: West.
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West is best.
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AL: The western region is where we
look after which for those that are in
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the kind of Sydney area, you'll know.
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That these words that I'm about
to say were Bacom Hills, basically
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through to Lithgo which is on the
other side of the Blue Mountains.
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And then Hawkesbury down to
the Parramatta kinda area.
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So we got a lot of, we have a lot
of fun catching up with youth and
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kids ministers in that, that area.
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Why do you love the West Emery?
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Annemarie: I just love working with
churches everywhere, but I think I like
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the
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west particularly because it reminds
me of where I grew up in the country.
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Like we go all the way from like.
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Inner city Parramatta churches,
multiple congregations, all the way
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out to where it feels very country.
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And they're much smaller churches.
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And there's just, yeah.
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So much variability and
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Everybody's working hard to see
kids and youth come to Jesus.
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AL: It's good times.
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It's good times.
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, We thought that we would kind of do
a little bit of a series I guess a
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sneak peek into what the Youth and
Children's Ministry Foundations course
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looks like at Youth Works College.
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So what we're gonna be doing is spending
some time today thinking a little bit
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about principle to practice, , which in
some ways if you end up doing the Youth
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and Children's Ministry Foundation's
course, or some of you might be listening
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from the course right now, but we, we
wanna just kinda let you know that.
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Is in some ways really what we
do at YouthWorks in general, but
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particularly, the Children's and
Youth Ministry Foundations course
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is really kind of geared around
this idea of principle to practice.
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So, Anne Marie, why are we thinking
about principle to practice or sometimes,
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like we say, theology to practice?
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Like what, what's going on there?
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Annemarie: Well, I guess we're,
we wanna explore, , the way
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that we think about ministry and
what good ministry looks like.
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And so, , this really gives
a framework for our approach.
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, We do wanna be, , thinking
well about what we do.
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We don't wanna just
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do what
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has always been done
in our ministry areas.
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Like, you might play games in
your youth group and that's
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great, but why do you do that?
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And So we really want to be, , making
choices on what is happening based
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on our theology and our convictions.
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, Instead of just.
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Various
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other reasons.
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AL: Well, and, and the typically , the
number one reason that someone might do
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something apart from , principles and
like, uh, yes, the theological principles,
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but also theoretical principles.
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We wanna be leaning on like
the best research and all
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that kind of thing as well.
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But typically the number one reason
someone might do something apart
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from having a principled reason
is that they're going to be.
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Replicating what they've done before.
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You know, this is, this is what kids
club was like for me, or this is
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what, what it was like when I led
kids church , at my home church.
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You know, this is what youth
ministry was like when I grew up.
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So, yeah, this is the way to do it.
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But it sounds like Emery we're
arguing that maybe we should
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do a little bit more than that.
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Annemarie: Yeah, that's right.
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I think it's also possible to do
things because we think it works.
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Mm-hmm.
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So if we do
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make a certain choice or run a certain
activity, we'll be guaranteed to
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get lots of people in the building.
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Like it looks like it's effective.
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It looks like it works, but
actually it might not align with
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our convictions, with our theology.
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And so that even though that's effective,
it might not be something we wanna
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continue doing, even though it looks.
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Like it works.
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AL: Mm-hmm.
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And actually the it might actually reveal
our principles, or our theology, you
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know, so ev even though we would maybe
never articulate a particular theology
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because we keep doing a certain activity
or a certain way of doing ministry.
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Even though, oh my goodness, if we
articulated it, we couldn't believe that.
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But, but it, it might actually sometimes
reveal what we really do believe.
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Even if it's in our subconscious.
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So kind of bringing that
stuff out into the light.
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And you know, I have a, I have
a bit of a love hate, you know,
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relationship with the word intentional.
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I feel like it's a bit of a buzz word,
but I guess that, you know, it does
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capture what we're kind of getting at is.
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Annemarie: is.
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AL: Let's do things on purpose.
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, Let's not just do things 'cause that's
the way that everyone's always done it,
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because you might end up doing something,
, not as good or, not as beneficial, or
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even maybe sometimes not as faithful.
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And so this is why we want to kind
of think about this idea of principle
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to practice, you know, thinking
about theological biblical and
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theoretical principles and moving from
there to a better practice in youth
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and kids ministry, which is good.
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Annemarie: Yeah, that's right.
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And I think it fits well as well.
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with Reflective practice.
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Like, that's something a lot of people
are talking about at the moment, , where
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you do spend time thinking about what
you're doing and on how effective it
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is and all the different aspects of
what you're doing and evaluating it
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and considering whether you wanna keep
doing that or what you wanna change.
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And that's part of the whole process.
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Like
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As we think about our principles, we
want to just think, be thinking about
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it intentionally and reflecting on our
practice as well as reflecting on our
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convictions and making sure they do align
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and
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avoiding those problems you
were just talking about.
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AL: Yeah, totally.
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And so one of the ways that we kind
of, you know, we've devised of, of
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moving from principle to practice is
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or
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I guess it's like a learning framework
or a thinking framework is we've devised
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this flow of how do you get from.
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Where we are in terms of what
we are thinking and thinking
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about to better practice.
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So let's go through that.
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We call it our thinking frame.
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What do we call it?
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Do we call it the thinking framework?
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Annemarie: Our thinking formula.
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AL: formula.
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Think thinking formula.
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And we've obviously gotta nail it
down a little bit, but that's fine.
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, In our
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in our
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sort of thinking framework here,
we start with biblical framework.
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So Emery, what are we
talking about with that?
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Annemarie: So here's where we're
thinking about what the Bible tells
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us about reality and the world.
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that the things that we assume as
Christians most of the time that God is
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the creator, that the world is his all
those big truthful things that we can pull
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out of our theology or our doctrine books.
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AL: And it, I guess it's, it's not only
gonna be the big, kind of the big rocks,
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but also the, the minutia as well.
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The little things, it's the
assumptions that we have.
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That is based on a biblical
in our theological thinking.
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I mean, potentially we should
call it our kind of biblical
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and theological framework,
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but we all have one, right?
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We all come to the table
with an existing framework.
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So say we are thinking about,
this is something we've done at
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House conference, for example.
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Say we're thinking about
the, the doctrine of sin.
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Like, we bring things to the table.
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We have a biblical framework for sin.
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We, we have probably multiple
thoughts about how that
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will,
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will play out in our lives, play out
in the lives of the young people in
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front of us and that kind of thing.
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So we bring that to the table.
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We have an existing framework for
thinking about topics from the Bible,
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but all and theological topics, but
also about, ministry and, you know, the
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ways in which we do ministry as well.
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. So we come with the framework
and then you're gonna introduce
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new knowledge in some way.
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Tell us about that.
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Annemarie: Yeah, so I think new
knowledge is sort of our second box.
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Like we've got that biblical information
in our first box, but the second one
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is new knowledge, and that is actually
intentional as well in the sense that
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we do hold the Bible as our authority.
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So, as we consider new knowledge
that is considered in light
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of what scripture says.
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And of course it's God's
world, his creation.
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And So it's not surprising that we
can find new knowledge in all sorts of
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places, but we do wanna always evaluate
it in light of what the Bible says.
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AL: Mm-hmm.
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And some, sometimes the new knowledge
is new biblical knowledge as well.
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Like, not new revelation, but like
a, a, a new, a new understanding
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that we've come to as we've read the
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Annemarie: Very true.
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That's right.
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But it could come from anywhere.
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So it could be something about
child development, it could be
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something about the way the brain
works or the way we learn things.
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New knowledge can be any aspect and
similar to the biblical framework
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that we were just talking about, it
can be both the big picture stuff.
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Or it can be a particular detail
or, , , very small fact about like
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the way a kid learns when they are
five years old or the growth spurt
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they have and what happens in their
brain at particular and specific ages.
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AL: And it might be something to do
with like the, you know, like the way
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that society is kind of functioning
or that kind of thing as well.
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Annemarie: Yeah, that's right.
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Culture.
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And so, and this is also where
statistics and research fits in.
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So often that can be highly motivating
for people in ministry to think,
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oh, the research is showing this.
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and that's
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great, but again, we want to keep it in
dialogue with what the Bible is telling
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AL: Now you've used that word dialogue,
so I'm looking at the diagram here
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and that first bot, biblical frame
box, biblical framework has an arrow
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pointing to new knowledge as like we're
we're going from one to the other.
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But interestingly, there's also an arrow
pointing back to the biblical framework.
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So it's a bit of a back
and forth there, right?
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Annemarie: Yeah, totally.
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Yeah, we do wanna be looking
at them in light of each other.
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Like, there are plenty of things where
new knowledge will actually, , illuminate
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something that's always been in scripture,
but we have not quite seen in fresh ways.
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Like the classic example would
be, , the idea that does the
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world revolve around the earth or
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does the sun reso revolve
around the earth or vice versa.
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Whereas you know, hundreds
of years ago, they were very
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convinced of one perspective.
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And yet as science showed.
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It was actually, well, that doesn't
actually clash with what the Bible says,
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even though we had other convictions.
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The Bible can still speak and is
still truthful, even though we've now.
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understood
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The
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way
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God created
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it differently.
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AL: in some ways we're sort of,
you know, as, as we encounter new
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knowledge, it's not that we're kind
of shifting and changing biblical
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truth, but we might be accommodating
within our biblical framework.
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We might need to make accommodations
for that new, that new knowledge.
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But always testing it
against the scriptures.
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Yeah, and so actually what we're doing
as we go along is we're expanding that
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biblical and theological framework.
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So then we can, you know, as we enlarge
that framework, as we integrate that new
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knowledge, we can then start to move.
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Forward towards better practice.
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So we're gonna kind of
start that journey now.
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So we've had that so far.
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We've got biblical framework,
biblical or the theological framework.
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We've introduced new knowledge.
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We're integrating that there's a back
and forth between the new, the biblical
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framework and the new knowledge.
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Let's move towards better practice.
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What's the first stop
on the journey, Emery?
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Annemarie: It's context.
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AL: What do we mean by context?
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Annemarie: We mean thinking
about your particular space and
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where ministry is happening.
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So, for me, church happens
in the southwest of Sydney.
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It's a reasonably small church
where, you know, we get between
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10 to 25 kids on a Sunday morning.
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Like that is, those are some
of the details of my context
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for Ministry to Children.
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AL: there's sort of some
demographic information there.
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You know, who, who's
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in the room kind of thing.
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There'll be cultural
demographics going on as well.
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Yes.
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That in your church will
be different to my church.
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Which would, which will be different
to others of our colleagues', church
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or other, other listeners', church.
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And so some of those matter for context.
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What other, what are the other
things that matter for context?
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Annemarie: even
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things like our spaces.
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So, you know, the particular environment
and context can be things that
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change or things that don't change.
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So, you know, weather.
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Is a classic example with kids' ministry.
00:11:06.583 --> 00:11:09.853
If it's a stormy, windy day, the
kids are gonna behave differently.
00:11:09.853 --> 00:11:09.913
Yeah.
00:11:10.213 --> 00:11:14.213
To like, If it's a sunny day
or super hot or super cold.
00:11:14.213 --> 00:11:14.513
AL: Yeah.
00:11:14.513 --> 00:11:19.843
And if your, if your program is, is if
your ministry, you know, mostly occurs
00:11:19.843 --> 00:11:24.313
indoors, you'll be less susceptible to
weather than if it mostly occurs outdoors.
00:11:24.313 --> 00:11:26.533
And so there's, these are
some examples of context.
00:11:27.053 --> 00:11:31.233
Would you say that kind of the way in
which people have done things previously
00:11:31.503 --> 00:11:35.343
could be you know, part of this kind
of context kinda package as well?
00:11:35.503 --> 00:11:36.643
Annemarie: Yes, that's very true.
00:11:36.643 --> 00:11:38.623
So the things that we inherit
00:11:38.993 --> 00:11:42.473
in our ministry areas, so things
like what kind of resources or
00:11:42.473 --> 00:11:44.153
even the spaces that you are using.
00:11:44.153 --> 00:11:46.403
So your spaces might not change.
00:11:46.683 --> 00:11:49.713
The church is still the same size
with the same number of rooms, but.
00:11:50.053 --> 00:11:53.683
Kids, church or youth ministry has
always happened in a particular space.
00:11:53.923 --> 00:11:55.723
And so you've inherited that.
00:11:55.813 --> 00:11:56.053
As
00:11:56.053 --> 00:11:59.183
along with the way that
ministry happens in that
00:11:59.183 --> 00:11:59.693
space.
00:11:59.693 --> 00:12:01.583
Because of that environment,
00:12:01.678 --> 00:12:05.188
AL: the language that people use to
describe ministry, to describe culture,
00:12:05.188 --> 00:12:09.508
describe all those, all those sorts
of things will come under context.
00:12:09.508 --> 00:12:11.968
And so we've kind of had
our biblical framework.
00:12:12.208 --> 00:12:13.948
Enlarged enlivened.
00:12:14.008 --> 00:12:15.748
You know, we've integrated new knowledge.
00:12:15.748 --> 00:12:18.848
We have a kind of a bigger framework
that we're dealing with now.
00:12:19.028 --> 00:12:24.248
We've had a look at our context, and
then we move from context to the next
00:12:24.248 --> 00:12:26.383
stop, which is what Anne Marie, it's
00:12:26.498 --> 00:12:27.728
Annemarie: current practice.
00:12:27.978 --> 00:12:29.268
That one's really easy to explain.
00:12:29.268 --> 00:12:30.768
It's just what you're doing at the moment.
00:12:30.768 --> 00:12:34.188
Like, what is your, what are you
currently doing in your ministry?
00:12:34.353 --> 00:12:34.593
AL: Yeah.
00:12:34.593 --> 00:12:38.013
And so that might be to do with the, the
structures that you have, or it might be
00:12:38.013 --> 00:12:41.643
to do with the age groups that you have,
or it might be to do with the kind of
00:12:41.643 --> 00:12:43.638
elements of your program that you, that,
00:12:43.953 --> 00:12:46.413
that that are already part of
things and that kind of thing.
00:12:46.783 --> 00:12:48.133
But yeah, as Anne Marie said, it's.
00:12:48.763 --> 00:12:50.233
It's what you do now.
00:12:50.953 --> 00:12:51.973
Last stop though.
00:12:51.973 --> 00:12:52.753
What is it, Emory?
00:12:54.103 --> 00:12:55.243
Annemarie: It's better practice.
00:12:55.243 --> 00:12:57.223
AL: Why is it not best practice?
00:12:57.673 --> 00:12:58.963
Annemarie: Oh, that's
an excellent question.
00:12:59.353 --> 00:13:02.413
There is in some senses
the idea of best practice.
00:13:02.743 --> 00:13:06.103
It is whatever glorifies God
the most and is most faithful
00:13:06.103 --> 00:13:08.443
to his word and most obedient.
00:13:08.443 --> 00:13:09.913
And most trusting in him.
00:13:10.363 --> 00:13:15.643
And yet it's very easy for us to
take what might be best practice in
00:13:15.643 --> 00:13:19.333
one context and then go, this should
happen everywhere and everyone should
00:13:19.333 --> 00:13:21.103
be doing all exactly the same thing.
00:13:21.463 --> 00:13:22.993
And I don't think that's true.
00:13:23.263 --> 00:13:25.103
So I don't think that, . I.
00:13:26.193 --> 00:13:30.583
Being obedient, , and faithful and
teaching God's word clearly is going
00:13:30.583 --> 00:13:32.683
to look the same in different contexts.
00:13:32.683 --> 00:13:36.793
That's why we have that context box,
because it's gonna look different
00:13:36.943 --> 00:13:41.083
if you are teaching five kids or
five youth, to, if you are teaching
00:13:41.083 --> 00:13:45.133
a hundred, the way that you present
and interact, the strategies that
00:13:45.133 --> 00:13:49.463
you use, all of those things will
change, , according to your context.
00:13:49.463 --> 00:13:49.553
Mm-hmm.
00:13:50.443 --> 00:13:54.403
AL: So it's I guess another way to kind of
describe that better practice box might be
00:13:54.403 --> 00:13:56.383
best practice right now in your context.
00:13:57.283 --> 00:13:57.613
Annemarie: Yes.
00:13:57.703 --> 00:13:59.053
But we are using a shortened version.
00:13:59.053 --> 00:13:59.263
Yeah,
00:13:59.323 --> 00:14:00.013
AL: absolutely.
00:14:00.343 --> 00:14:03.523
Alright, so I mean, this is, this
is the, the thinking framework
00:14:03.523 --> 00:14:07.303
that we kind of, we, we, we
think, think about or that we use.
00:14:07.843 --> 00:14:12.433
And we, just to recap that we start
with the biblical theological framework.
00:14:12.463 --> 00:14:15.703
We add new knowledge, what,
wherever that might come from.
00:14:15.703 --> 00:14:19.753
And we're having a back and forth with
the biblical data and the new knowledge,
00:14:19.783 --> 00:14:22.393
and we're making accommodations and
we're integrating that knowledge.
00:14:23.053 --> 00:14:23.233
we're
00:14:23.233 --> 00:14:26.383
testing it all against scripture so
that we have a more faithful, more, more
00:14:26.383 --> 00:14:29.153
robust biblical and theological framework.
00:14:29.153 --> 00:14:32.123
And once we've kind of established that
we've integrated the new knowledge,
00:14:32.363 --> 00:14:35.153
then we start to think about the
context that we're in, the things
00:14:35.153 --> 00:14:38.723
that we do in ministry at this point
in time, or what the current practice
00:14:38.723 --> 00:14:43.493
in ministry is so that we might move
towards practice that is better.
00:14:43.793 --> 00:14:48.143
By better we mean the best thing for your
context at this particular point in time.
00:14:48.638 --> 00:14:49.448
Annemarie: Yeah, That's right.
00:14:49.448 --> 00:14:52.658
And I, I guess part of the
assumptions behind this is the idea
00:14:52.658 --> 00:14:54.218
that we always want to be growing.
00:14:54.218 --> 00:14:54.308
Mm-hmm.
00:14:54.888 --> 00:14:59.218
We always want to be moving forward
because as disciples ourselves, we
00:14:59.218 --> 00:15:02.888
are growing and hopefully reflecting
Christ more clearly and knowing
00:15:02.888 --> 00:15:04.358
him better and loving him more.
00:15:04.388 --> 00:15:08.958
And so our practice is similarly
improving because it is.
00:15:09.248 --> 00:15:10.478
The best thing to be doing.
00:15:10.538 --> 00:15:14.318
Like, if I can convince you all kids in
youth ministry, it's the place to be.
00:15:14.628 --> 00:15:17.478
Because we can tell the next
generation, and we, this is
00:15:17.478 --> 00:15:19.788
such a great way to serve Jesus.
00:15:19.848 --> 00:15:22.068
So we wanna do it as best we can.
00:15:22.183 --> 00:15:22.798
AL: Yeah, yeah.
00:15:22.798 --> 00:15:23.488
Absolutely.
00:15:23.698 --> 00:15:27.178
And even if you were just happy to
kind of be doing decent ministry all
00:15:27.178 --> 00:15:30.718
the time and not kind of striving
for perfection or like, you know, and
00:15:30.778 --> 00:15:35.218
that's not what you say Mary, but like,
even if you weren't kind of Absolutely
00:15:35.218 --> 00:15:37.228
driving to improve all the time.
00:15:37.633 --> 00:15:41.793
Even if that was the case, , the
world around you will be changing.
00:15:41.823 --> 00:15:45.393
And so it is important to continually
be assessing your ministry and
00:15:45.393 --> 00:15:48.813
thinking about is this what is
needed at this point in time?
00:15:49.293 --> 00:15:52.743
Because, you know, I mean, like
we've just done an episode of, uh,
00:15:52.743 --> 00:15:56.193
the Effective Ministry podcast on
the social media band just before
00:15:56.193 --> 00:15:58.148
that happened, that was not a thing.
00:15:59.013 --> 00:16:03.303
A year or two ago, but we need to
consider , what changes in our ministry
00:16:03.333 --> 00:16:04.863
we need to be thinking through.
00:16:04.863 --> 00:16:08.553
And we wanna be doing that from a place
of principle so we can move through to
00:16:08.943 --> 00:16:10.293
effective practice.
00:16:11.888 --> 00:16:14.793
Annemarie: So our, what
do we do with our thinking
00:16:15.043 --> 00:16:15.463
Framework?
00:16:15.883 --> 00:16:16.093
AL: Yeah.
00:16:16.093 --> 00:16:19.097
Well I think, we wanna be doing
with this, because we're gonna
00:16:19.097 --> 00:16:21.167
be using this thinking framework.
00:16:21.677 --> 00:16:23.447
We, , on various different things.
00:16:23.447 --> 00:16:26.687
So like I said before, it might be
on a particular topic, you know,
00:16:26.987 --> 00:16:32.537
on eschatology or on, you know, the
incarnation or on Atonement or on
00:16:32.537 --> 00:16:34.487
the book of James or whatever it is.
00:16:34.547 --> 00:16:37.357
Or we might be using it to
think through particular issues.
00:16:37.357 --> 00:16:42.007
So what do I think about, you know,
engaging teaching or what do I think
00:16:42.007 --> 00:16:45.917
about age and gender breakups , for
discussion groups or whatever it is?
00:16:46.592 --> 00:16:51.482
And so as we kind of do this piecemeal,
we use this thinking framework along
00:16:51.482 --> 00:16:55.922
the way, what we're actually doing as
we do do this, you know, one thing.
00:16:55.922 --> 00:16:59.492
Then the next, then the next topic
by topic, by topic is we're actually
00:16:59.492 --> 00:17:01.562
developing a ministry philosophy.
00:17:02.342 --> 00:17:04.322
And so that's, that's kind of
what we're doing, which, you
00:17:04.322 --> 00:17:05.222
know, a ministry philosophy.
00:17:06.247 --> 00:17:10.327
Is in many ways it's a set of
guiding principles, like a statement
00:17:10.327 --> 00:17:14.467
of our guiding principles that
drive ministry in our context.
00:17:14.677 --> 00:17:20.137
And so, you know, it's a movement from
principles then the things that you
00:17:20.137 --> 00:17:23.887
believe to be true in regard to ministry
through your context as we've talked
00:17:23.887 --> 00:17:26.227
about with the, the thinking framework.
00:17:26.547 --> 00:17:29.967
Things that are specific to your ministry
to practice and how you'll go about
00:17:29.967 --> 00:17:31.617
ministry in your specific context.
00:17:31.737 --> 00:17:36.717
And so it really is essential that
we're able to connect the practice of
00:17:36.747 --> 00:17:41.337
our ministry to articulate principles
and where they're actually assumed
00:17:41.607 --> 00:17:44.157
then to articulate those principles.
00:17:44.517 --> 00:17:47.427
And so it is essential that
our ministry practice is
00:17:47.427 --> 00:17:50.277
consistent with our principles.
00:17:50.727 --> 00:17:51.507
Annemarie: Yeah, That's right.
00:17:51.537 --> 00:17:53.687
And I think you said the word
articulate there, and I think
00:17:53.687 --> 00:17:54.617
that's really important.
00:17:54.617 --> 00:17:57.707
Like The ministry philosophy
is an articulation.
00:17:58.057 --> 00:18:01.357
So that when somebody says, oh, why
do you do things that way, you're able
00:18:01.357 --> 00:18:06.067
to say, not just, oh, we always have
done them, or Oh gosh, I don't know.
00:18:06.127 --> 00:18:11.372
Or because it works you can actually
go back to where it came from.
00:18:11.682 --> 00:18:15.342
And often your principles like
all the various statements
00:18:15.342 --> 00:18:16.842
that make up your philosophy.
00:18:17.202 --> 00:18:19.182
They are summaries of.
00:18:19.542 --> 00:18:23.532
Of your theological convictions and your
convictions in light of new knowledge
00:18:23.532 --> 00:18:25.542
and context and all those things.
00:18:25.552 --> 00:18:25.882
AL: Yeah.
00:18:26.182 --> 00:18:30.773
And so as we develop a ministry
philosophy that is kind of a, like
00:18:30.893 --> 00:18:35.908
a, a conglomeration of all of the
different kind of principles that we are
00:18:35.908 --> 00:18:37.888
developing using our thinking framework.
00:18:38.008 --> 00:18:38.038
Mm.
00:18:38.398 --> 00:18:40.528
And so, you know, as we think about.
00:18:40.798 --> 00:18:42.388
Age and gender discussion groups.
00:18:42.578 --> 00:18:46.598
We, we, you know, we're going
to come up with a principle.
00:18:46.598 --> 00:18:49.838
We're going to, you know, think
about things that are true and we're
00:18:49.838 --> 00:18:51.338
gonna move through to practice.
00:18:51.458 --> 00:18:55.478
And as we kind of think about all of
those different parts, they go together.
00:18:55.528 --> 00:18:58.138
To make a ministry philosophy.
00:18:58.198 --> 00:19:02.758
Which yeah, as as, as we talked about
a moment ago, it drives our ministry.
00:19:03.118 --> 00:19:05.068
We're able to defend our ministry.
00:19:05.068 --> 00:19:08.638
We're able to explain why we do things
a certain way and not another way.
00:19:08.948 --> 00:19:12.788
And, you know, not this way, not this
way, but this way we're able to have
00:19:12.818 --> 00:19:16.598
really good, robust discussions with
our ministry teams so that we can
00:19:16.598 --> 00:19:18.068
move forward in the best way possible.
00:19:18.633 --> 00:19:21.093
Annemarie: Yeah, and that's
like building a ministry
00:19:21.093 --> 00:19:22.623
philosophy is something that we.
00:19:22.833 --> 00:19:23.283
focus
00:19:23.283 --> 00:19:24.993
on, particularly in the course.
00:19:25.083 --> 00:19:25.173
Mm-hmm.
00:19:25.573 --> 00:19:30.143
So we're working towards, across the
year or across the semester being
00:19:30.143 --> 00:19:35.543
able to put together particularly the
principles that shape our own ministry.
00:19:35.543 --> 00:19:38.243
So there are of course, some,
some things that everyone would
00:19:38.243 --> 00:19:40.743
agree on in all of our churches.
00:19:41.013 --> 00:19:44.643
But then there are also particular
areas where the way you do ministry
00:19:44.643 --> 00:19:46.353
is different to the way I do ministry.
00:19:46.563 --> 00:19:47.733
AL: So like what?
00:19:47.733 --> 00:19:49.773
That's really salient point.
00:19:49.773 --> 00:19:50.103
Annemarie.
00:19:50.103 --> 00:19:53.343
Like what are some of the things that
everyone agrees on in our context?
00:19:53.943 --> 00:19:57.303
Annemarie: Well, I very much hope and
do believe that like things like the
00:19:57.303 --> 00:19:58.863
importance of teaching God's word.
00:19:59.133 --> 00:20:02.513
And of having God's word central
to our teaching and to our
00:20:02.813 --> 00:20:06.763
discipling ministry programs,
that's something that is happening
00:20:06.763 --> 00:20:08.943
in every church that we work with.
00:20:09.088 --> 00:20:09.418
AL: Yeah.
00:20:09.568 --> 00:20:13.318
And so, , that's an essential principle
that we'll be driving our ministry
00:20:13.318 --> 00:20:15.418
and that's like a big ticket item.
00:20:16.018 --> 00:20:19.378
And it's probably not super
contestable, at least.
00:20:19.768 --> 00:20:23.158
For the people that are kind of driving
the ministry, or at least the people that
00:20:23.158 --> 00:20:24.478
are sort of in leadership in the ministry.
00:20:24.478 --> 00:20:27.418
There might be sort of rumblings,
sort of, amongst congregation.
00:20:27.418 --> 00:20:29.788
Like people have, you know,
everybody's welcome to church no
00:20:29.788 --> 00:20:31.168
matter what your theology of scripture.
00:20:31.608 --> 00:20:36.248
And so, but it's one of those things
that probably, you know it's worth
00:20:36.248 --> 00:20:40.808
articulating, but it might not make
much difference in the ministry for
00:20:40.808 --> 00:20:44.798
you to articulate it, even though it
absolutely does drive your ministry.
00:20:45.298 --> 00:20:46.108
Annemarie: Yeah, that's right.
00:20:46.198 --> 00:20:49.428
And I think this is where our
seven principles sits really.
00:20:49.428 --> 00:20:52.798
So our team has developed the
seven principles for effective
00:20:52.798 --> 00:20:54.088
youth and children's ministry.
00:20:54.358 --> 00:20:57.988
And, and most of these would
sit in that kind of space.
00:20:57.988 --> 00:21:00.568
Like there are one or two that are
potentially a little bit contentious.
00:21:01.008 --> 00:21:05.458
But the first one about word centered
relational discipleship, like
00:21:05.458 --> 00:21:07.768
that is a general principle that.
00:21:08.463 --> 00:21:11.823
Every church in within our
circles would agree with.
00:21:11.998 --> 00:21:12.358
AL: Yeah.
00:21:12.358 --> 00:21:15.448
And I mean, just to run through, like,
just to kind of help give some examples
00:21:15.688 --> 00:21:18.898
that, that, the first one was word,
word, word based relational discipleship.
00:21:19.178 --> 00:21:22.568
Second one is, you know, the
importance of parent partnership and
00:21:22.568 --> 00:21:25.658
so, you know, partnering with the
home because, you know, parents are
00:21:25.658 --> 00:21:27.308
the primary place of discipleship.
00:21:27.338 --> 00:21:27.973
The third one.
00:21:28.718 --> 00:21:31.488
Is integrating young people
into the household of God.
00:21:31.828 --> 00:21:34.858
So the importance of
intergenerational discipleship.
00:21:35.138 --> 00:21:36.848
The fourth one is to do with mission.
00:21:36.848 --> 00:21:40.438
So making sure that young, you know,
that young people are coming to
00:21:40.438 --> 00:21:43.988
faith, not just being not just the
ones that are being nurtured in faith
00:21:43.988 --> 00:21:44.963
because they already have faith.
00:21:44.963 --> 00:21:46.748
So we, you know, the priority of mission.
00:21:47.203 --> 00:21:49.033
The fifth one is, oh, man.
00:21:49.183 --> 00:21:50.383
Oh, collaboration,
00:21:50.678 --> 00:21:52.268
Annemarie: is a little
bit more contentious.
00:21:52.268 --> 00:21:55.148
There are some churches that don't
think they need to collaborate
00:21:55.148 --> 00:21:58.908
with other churches, whereas we
think that's a valuable thing
00:21:58.958 --> 00:22:00.848
for fostering effective ministry.
00:22:01.003 --> 00:22:01.303
AL: Yeah.
00:22:01.363 --> 00:22:03.793
Number six is about training.
00:22:03.793 --> 00:22:08.093
So making sure leadership teams are well
equipped for the task that they that
00:22:08.093 --> 00:22:09.833
they're, that they're doing in ministry.
00:22:10.103 --> 00:22:11.063
And then the last one
00:22:11.328 --> 00:22:14.918
Annemarie: is emotionally healthy
and spiritually growing leaders.
00:22:15.258 --> 00:22:18.168
So again, there's not many people
that wouldn't agree with that.
00:22:18.258 --> 00:22:21.048
but more about how you might
implement that principle.
00:22:21.363 --> 00:22:24.703
AL: And that's, that, I guess that's
specifically to do with vocational yeah.
00:22:24.753 --> 00:22:27.453
Vocational leaders more
than like volunteer leaders.
00:22:27.863 --> 00:22:28.103
Yeah.
00:22:28.103 --> 00:22:31.253
So those are the side, those are like,
and, and as you're saying, Emery, they
00:22:31.253 --> 00:22:32.723
operate at kind of a, a high level.
00:22:33.638 --> 00:22:36.698
They're, they're the things that
maybe are true of lots of different
00:22:36.698 --> 00:22:40.428
churches, not necessarily dependent
on context to the same degree
00:22:40.428 --> 00:22:42.438
as some of the other principles
that we might be thinking about.
00:22:42.853 --> 00:22:43.603
Annemarie: Yeah, that's right.
00:22:43.693 --> 00:22:46.873
And I mean, to take a step
back for a minute they are
00:22:46.993 --> 00:22:48.408
principles, so they aren't.
00:22:49.798 --> 00:22:53.608
Directly our theology, but
there's summaries of our theology.
00:22:53.888 --> 00:22:55.538
'Cause that's really what a principle is.
00:22:55.598 --> 00:22:57.428
How might you define it besides that?
00:22:57.858 --> 00:23:00.138
AL: I think it's, it would be
something along the lines of, it's
00:23:00.138 --> 00:23:06.018
a, it's a, a statement of truth
that drives or animates ministry.
00:23:06.558 --> 00:23:10.908
And so, you know, where something is,
you know, a thing that is a, that is
00:23:10.908 --> 00:23:13.098
true, that is relevant to the ministry
00:23:13.368 --> 00:23:18.448
Specifically that is gonna make an impact
in the way in which you do ministry.
00:23:18.788 --> 00:23:22.388
So a a, you know, a, a good
example might be young people
00:23:22.778 --> 00:23:24.998
are of great value in God's eyes.
00:23:25.398 --> 00:23:28.118
Or it might be something
like young people are
00:23:28.633 --> 00:23:30.283
Part of the body of Christ.
00:23:30.653 --> 00:23:33.083
And so those two things, they're
gonna actually change the
00:23:33.083 --> 00:23:34.883
way in which you do ministry.
00:23:34.883 --> 00:23:37.853
If you don't think that they're
part of the body of Christ, you know
00:23:37.853 --> 00:23:41.323
that they need to be baptized or
something before you know, , at a
00:23:41.323 --> 00:23:44.743
later stage, then that will impact
the way in which you do ministry and
00:23:44.743 --> 00:23:46.213
the way that you view young people.
00:23:46.493 --> 00:23:49.373
And so you know whether or not
you believe those things or not,
00:23:49.673 --> 00:23:51.203
you know, that's not the point.
00:23:51.203 --> 00:23:54.293
The point is articulating those
things will actually change the
00:23:54.293 --> 00:23:55.308
way in which you do ministry.
00:23:56.148 --> 00:23:56.838
Annemarie: Yeah, that's right.
00:23:56.838 --> 00:24:00.268
And it highlights, I think you can
have principles at different levels.
00:24:00.268 --> 00:24:02.158
So like we were saying, the
seven principles is for.
00:24:02.928 --> 00:24:04.308
fairly high level.
00:24:04.698 --> 00:24:04.998
but you
00:24:04.998 --> 00:24:07.068
can have more specific ones.
00:24:07.348 --> 00:24:11.028
Like those examples about baptism
and convictions about how children
00:24:11.028 --> 00:24:14.958
fit in the church are moving to a
little bit more of a specific level
00:24:14.958 --> 00:24:16.818
and you can get even more specific.
00:24:16.818 --> 00:24:16.878
Yeah.
00:24:17.238 --> 00:24:18.348
Can you think of an example
00:24:18.673 --> 00:24:20.053
AL: of more specific ones?
00:24:20.053 --> 00:24:20.113
Yeah.
00:24:20.383 --> 00:24:20.923
Hmm.
00:24:21.133 --> 00:24:22.003
Good question.
00:24:22.343 --> 00:24:23.043
Oh, here's one.
00:24:23.053 --> 00:24:23.643
Young people
00:24:23.903 --> 00:24:24.363
try on
00:24:24.473 --> 00:24:27.108
many aspects of identity
during their teenage years.
00:24:27.408 --> 00:24:27.528
Yeah.
00:24:28.083 --> 00:24:29.523
That that's pretty specific.
00:24:29.613 --> 00:24:31.683
I, I guess it's addressing
the identity stuff.
00:24:32.083 --> 00:24:35.223
But it's yeah, it's something that
developmental psychology would kind of.
00:24:35.943 --> 00:24:39.423
Yeah, I guess it's para, it's not
paraphrased, but it's a summary of
00:24:39.703 --> 00:24:43.393
what we learn from developmental
psychology, James, Marcia, Eric
00:24:43.393 --> 00:24:44.773
Erickson, those kinds of things.
00:24:44.773 --> 00:24:48.553
And they're contested, like those that
it's, it's not that we take them, you
00:24:48.553 --> 00:24:50.293
know, without thinking about them.
00:24:50.603 --> 00:24:54.443
But it's a bit of a summary of the,
the experience of being a young person.
00:24:54.443 --> 00:24:55.463
And so that will.
00:24:56.153 --> 00:24:59.453
Impact on the way that you do
ministry with young people.
00:24:59.693 --> 00:25:03.303
So for example, if someone comes,
and this has happened to me someone
00:25:03.303 --> 00:25:04.803
comes to you and say, oh, Al
00:25:04.803 --> 00:25:07.953
i've been looking into satanism,
and you just kind of go,
00:25:08.523 --> 00:25:08.853
oh, right.
00:25:08.853 --> 00:25:13.383
And so what I, what, what happens in
my mind is I freak out, but actually.
00:25:13.873 --> 00:25:17.143
If I remember that young people try
on many aspects of identity during
00:25:17.143 --> 00:25:20.803
their teenage years, I'm able to
go, ah, tell me more about that.
00:25:21.223 --> 00:25:25.013
And you know, the way in which I
respond is directly impacted by
00:25:25.013 --> 00:25:28.463
the principle that I hold, that I
know from developmental psychology.
00:25:28.803 --> 00:25:30.723
Annemarie: So I think that's
actually a great example.
00:25:30.723 --> 00:25:35.153
Because you can see the thinking our
thinking framework in action there.
00:25:35.183 --> 00:25:35.273
Mm-hmm.
00:25:35.523 --> 00:25:37.293
So, you know, you've got your own.
00:25:37.593 --> 00:25:41.433
Like assumptions underlying it
about the value of the young
00:25:41.433 --> 00:25:43.383
person and your role as a leader.
00:25:43.413 --> 00:25:45.663
Like they might fit into
the biblical framework box.
00:25:45.813 --> 00:25:49.353
But then this new knowledge about
from psychology and developmental
00:25:49.353 --> 00:25:53.163
science and all those kinds of
areas has integrated into that.
00:25:53.583 --> 00:25:57.433
It's in the context of this specific
conversation and where you might be
00:25:57.433 --> 00:25:58.933
freaking out on the inside or maybe
00:25:59.173 --> 00:25:59.533
freaked
00:25:59.533 --> 00:26:00.013
out in
00:26:00.493 --> 00:26:01.993
past interactions.
00:26:02.263 --> 00:26:05.843
You are now in a place where
you can, again, take a breath,
00:26:06.143 --> 00:26:09.753
Be a calm and non-anxious
presence for that kid.
00:26:10.173 --> 00:26:13.863
And so he or she knows
that they can be safe.
00:26:14.203 --> 00:26:16.423
In coming back to you and going,
you know what, I've changed my mind.
00:26:16.423 --> 00:26:17.053
That was dumb.
00:26:17.563 --> 00:26:19.003
Which we very much hope they did,
00:26:19.333 --> 00:26:19.753
AL: and they did.
00:26:20.263 --> 00:26:20.863
Annemarie: Excellent.
00:26:21.053 --> 00:26:21.858
AL: Yeah, absolutely.
00:26:22.163 --> 00:26:24.323
So, I mean, should we have a
chat about how you might go
00:26:24.323 --> 00:26:25.823
about building principles?
00:26:25.823 --> 00:26:26.273
Let's do that.
00:26:26.393 --> 00:26:26.753
Yeah.
00:26:26.783 --> 00:26:29.453
So, I mean, one of the things
that's interesting is there's no,
00:26:29.633 --> 00:26:31.193
there's no right or wrong way.
00:26:31.578 --> 00:26:35.778
But one of the ways, and we think the
way ways we think about it in, in our
00:26:35.778 --> 00:26:40.668
course is that because we consider
them to be truth statements or things
00:26:40.668 --> 00:26:44.748
that are true, we really try to make
sure that they're built that way.
00:26:45.078 --> 00:26:48.828
And so my little exercise that I
make people do is that I say you
00:26:48.828 --> 00:26:52.908
have to be able to put the phrase,
it is true that in front of it.
00:26:53.028 --> 00:26:53.358
Right.
00:26:53.718 --> 00:26:53.958
Okay.
00:26:53.958 --> 00:26:58.323
So, you know, a lot of the time
people might say, you know, and,
00:26:58.428 --> 00:27:01.578
and people get pretty excited about
intergenerational ministry in our course.
00:27:01.638 --> 00:27:04.118
And also, you know, if you wanted
to do the intergenerational
00:27:04.118 --> 00:27:06.008
ministry course at Youth West
College, you could do that as well.
00:27:06.008 --> 00:27:07.298
But people get excited about that.
00:27:07.778 --> 00:27:11.018
And so sometimes they're like, oh,
you know, my ministry principle
00:27:11.018 --> 00:27:12.608
is intergenerational ministry.
00:27:12.638 --> 00:27:14.313
And I, I always come back at them, I say.
00:27:14.943 --> 00:27:19.723
It is true that intergenerational
ministry question mark because it's not
00:27:19.723 --> 00:27:21.283
a truth statement, it's just a heading.
00:27:21.703 --> 00:27:27.843
And so, I want people to work harder and
actually work at articulating something
00:27:27.843 --> 00:27:30.543
that makes sense in and of itself, right?
00:27:30.543 --> 00:27:34.213
So, Emery, just thinking about
intergenerational ministry, you
00:27:34.213 --> 00:27:37.663
know, obviously it is true that
intergenerational ministry, that's not
00:27:37.663 --> 00:27:41.743
a sentence, it doesn't make sense, but
what might be a principle that we could
00:27:42.043 --> 00:27:46.303
use when it comes to intergenerational
ministry that works with the It is true.
00:27:46.303 --> 00:27:47.473
That kind of test.
00:27:47.473 --> 00:27:47.563
Sure.
00:27:47.988 --> 00:27:49.608
Annemarie: Oh, Well, I might be
able to give you one, but I'm
00:27:49.608 --> 00:27:51.048
not sure if it'll pass the test.
00:27:51.108 --> 00:27:51.198
Well,
00:27:51.223 --> 00:27:51.648
AL: we'll see how we go.
00:27:51.743 --> 00:27:52.668
Annemarie: maybe We can shape it.
00:27:53.008 --> 00:27:57.868
So you could say something again, it's
taking intergenerational ministry,
00:27:57.868 --> 00:27:59.758
but then refining it a little bit.
00:27:59.758 --> 00:28:02.878
So which aspect of that, like
what are we actually talking about
00:28:02.908 --> 00:28:07.108
'cause can, people can refer, use that
term to refer to lots of different things,
00:28:07.183 --> 00:28:09.223
AL: which is exactly what
this process helps us to do.
00:28:09.223 --> 00:28:10.153
Refine it, right?
00:28:10.153 --> 00:28:10.453
Yeah.
00:28:10.453 --> 00:28:10.753
Yeah.
00:28:11.068 --> 00:28:11.128
Annemarie: Yeah.
00:28:11.148 --> 00:28:14.448
So we could say, when young
people have warm intergenerational
00:28:14.448 --> 00:28:17.928
relationships, they are more
likely to persevere in their faith.
00:28:18.198 --> 00:28:18.498
Yeah.
00:28:18.588 --> 00:28:19.668
So that's a true
00:28:20.563 --> 00:28:21.343
AL: Let's test it.
00:28:21.343 --> 00:28:25.633
It is true that when young people have,
what is it, warm, intergenerational
00:28:25.633 --> 00:28:28.423
relationships, they're more
likely to per persevere in faith.
00:28:28.428 --> 00:28:29.328
Annemarie: Oh, so it does work.
00:28:29.443 --> 00:28:30.463
AL: It does work.
00:28:30.523 --> 00:28:30.853
Okay.
00:28:30.853 --> 00:28:32.053
And you could refine that further.
00:28:32.053 --> 00:28:32.783
You could say something like.
00:28:33.653 --> 00:28:36.953
It is true that warm intergenerational
relationships enable or
00:28:37.313 --> 00:28:39.293
help young people to persevere in faith.
00:28:39.428 --> 00:28:39.878
Annemarie: Yes.
00:28:39.963 --> 00:28:43.113
AL: That might be a further refinement
saying the same thing, but in less words.
00:28:43.143 --> 00:28:47.013
But the, the idea though is that
it works as a truth statement.
00:28:47.748 --> 00:28:48.048
Annemarie: And
00:28:48.063 --> 00:28:51.943
AL: That's good because . One of the
reasons that we work so hard at making
00:28:51.943 --> 00:28:56.713
them truth statements is because we
actually want to make sure that we
00:28:57.163 --> 00:29:02.053
distinguish between the true thing
and the practice that comes from it.
00:29:02.233 --> 00:29:02.593
Annemarie: Mm-hmm.
00:29:02.653 --> 00:29:02.893
yes.
00:29:02.893 --> 00:29:03.343
That's right.
00:29:03.343 --> 00:29:05.053
So we wanna keep the principle.
00:29:05.263 --> 00:29:06.913
Separate from the practice.
00:29:06.973 --> 00:29:07.093
Yeah.
00:29:07.123 --> 00:29:10.363
Because it will again, look
different in each context.
00:29:10.483 --> 00:29:10.543
Yeah.
00:29:10.573 --> 00:29:13.303
So the principle should always be true.
00:29:13.843 --> 00:29:13.933
Mm-hmm.
00:29:13.933 --> 00:29:18.498
Whereas how it is played out
in different contexts will be
00:29:19.048 --> 00:29:19.108
AL: Yeah.
00:29:19.578 --> 00:29:19.818
Annemarie: So
00:29:19.818 --> 00:29:21.648
Al, I think you've got a couple of tests.
00:29:22.048 --> 00:29:25.288
That we can apply as we sort
of arti begin to articulate and
00:29:25.288 --> 00:29:26.548
put together our principles.
00:29:26.548 --> 00:29:27.508
Tell us about those.
00:29:27.728 --> 00:29:28.508
AL: Yeah, absolutely.
00:29:28.538 --> 00:29:28.808
Okay.
00:29:28.808 --> 00:29:33.248
So, so when we when we come up with
a principle, it's gonna be, you
00:29:33.248 --> 00:29:36.008
know, you, you don't wanna state
it, it is true that dot, dot dot.
00:29:36.248 --> 00:29:39.368
But you've, it's able to
kind of pass that test.
00:29:39.368 --> 00:29:40.593
There's a couple of other
tests that we sort of.
00:29:40.878 --> 00:29:43.938
Often use the first one
is, is it too broad?
00:29:43.998 --> 00:29:44.208
Okay.
00:29:44.208 --> 00:29:48.198
So is it such a big topic that it's
difficult to be specific about what
00:29:48.198 --> 00:29:50.268
difference it would make in your ministry?
00:29:50.358 --> 00:29:54.858
An example of that might be
all people are valued by God.
00:29:55.458 --> 00:29:58.803
Well, okay, that's that's
true, but that's gonna be
00:29:59.178 --> 00:30:00.768
applicable to every setting.
00:30:01.188 --> 00:30:03.918
Both within and inside
and outside the church.
00:30:04.538 --> 00:30:09.248
And so how might you make it more specific
such that it's gonna make a difference
00:30:09.458 --> 00:30:11.318
in youth and children's ministry?
00:30:11.858 --> 00:30:16.538
It might be something like this, children
are of immense value to God, or even
00:30:16.808 --> 00:30:20.888
children are of great value to God, and
an integral part of the body of Christ.
00:30:21.038 --> 00:30:23.198
Okay, that's sharpening it
just a little bit further.
00:30:23.828 --> 00:30:24.908
That's the first test.
00:30:25.148 --> 00:30:28.628
Is it too broad and you want it to
be narrow enough that it's gonna
00:30:28.628 --> 00:30:30.158
make a difference in your ministry?
00:30:31.088 --> 00:30:33.818
Second one is, is it too narrow?
00:30:34.388 --> 00:30:34.628
Okay.
00:30:34.628 --> 00:30:38.078
So would you be willing to devote
a whole strategy to this principle?
00:30:38.388 --> 00:30:41.898
You know, as you, as you do your strategic
planning in in ministry, you're gonna
00:30:41.898 --> 00:30:43.608
devote a whole strategy to this principle.
00:30:43.608 --> 00:30:48.288
So, is it saying basically the same
thing as other principles you've stated?
00:30:49.258 --> 00:30:53.098
So for example, children can
encourage others, is very specific.
00:30:53.803 --> 00:30:54.133
Okay.
00:30:54.643 --> 00:30:57.703
You know the fact that
children can encourage others,
00:30:58.033 --> 00:30:59.623
that's a very specific, that's okay.
00:30:59.653 --> 00:31:03.853
Are we gonna devote a whole strategy
to children encouraging others?
00:31:04.393 --> 00:31:06.643
Well, maybe, but maybe not.
00:31:06.643 --> 00:31:09.283
Every child has the gift of encouragement.
00:31:09.883 --> 00:31:12.013
Okay, so it's a little bit too specific.
00:31:12.013 --> 00:31:16.183
So perhaps it would be better to come
under a broader principle, like children
00:31:16.183 --> 00:31:20.053
are able to make valuable contributions to
the building up of the church, and that's
00:31:20.053 --> 00:31:22.243
allowing for all kinds of different gifts.
00:31:22.588 --> 00:31:26.068
But still having that emphasis on
the children's capacity or the chi,
00:31:26.068 --> 00:31:30.368
you know, the god-given capacity
that God has given to children to
00:31:30.368 --> 00:31:32.288
be able to, you know, edify others.
00:31:32.693 --> 00:31:33.833
Annemarie: Yeah, that's really helpful.
00:31:33.833 --> 00:31:37.373
So we wanna avoid being too broad,
like too big and too general.
00:31:37.673 --> 00:31:39.983
But then we also wanna
avoid being too narrow.
00:31:39.983 --> 00:31:40.463
So,
00:31:40.873 --> 00:31:43.813
I think that was a really good
example, like we want to be able
00:31:43.813 --> 00:31:49.093
to acknowledge children's valuable
contributions but allowing that to.
00:31:49.393 --> 00:31:53.443
Differ in terms of the number of kids you
have, the type, like the personalities
00:31:53.443 --> 00:31:58.353
of the people in front of you and the
context not making it so specific that
00:31:58.353 --> 00:32:00.603
you actually find it hard to apply.
00:32:00.903 --> 00:32:02.823
And for it to influence your practice.
00:32:03.303 --> 00:32:04.503
What are the other tests?
00:32:04.763 --> 00:32:07.913
AL: Next one is, or the third one is
sort of the, the question, does the
00:32:07.913 --> 00:32:10.013
principle help you avoid possible risks?
00:32:10.343 --> 00:32:11.723
So, you know, an example,
00:32:11.773 --> 00:32:14.293
a statement about the authority
of scripture relative to other
00:32:14.293 --> 00:32:18.523
sources of truth may help
you avoid potential pitfalls.
00:32:18.913 --> 00:32:20.323
Depending on the context.
00:32:20.323 --> 00:32:26.143
So if you are in a context where
actually it is totally accepted that
00:32:26.413 --> 00:32:31.243
you know that scripture is the source
of authority when it comes to God's
00:32:31.243 --> 00:32:36.493
mind, if that's not contested well
then maybe it's something that you.
00:32:37.123 --> 00:32:41.773
That might not be as relevant to
in your context, that it won't
00:32:41.773 --> 00:32:43.873
change your ministry very much.
00:32:44.263 --> 00:32:47.773
But it might be that in your
specific context, it is challenged
00:32:47.773 --> 00:32:50.593
and so it's really worth
articulating that particular thing.
00:32:51.043 --> 00:32:55.423
Now sometimes things are so
important and arguably this is one.
00:32:56.048 --> 00:32:58.658
That you've gotta articulate
them regardless of whether
00:32:58.658 --> 00:32:59.738
they're contested or not.
00:32:59.738 --> 00:33:03.818
And you know, like, the authority of
scripture might be one of those things.
00:33:04.148 --> 00:33:05.078
Annemarie: That's very true though.
00:33:05.078 --> 00:33:07.388
And I think, I mean, the benefit of
00:33:07.478 --> 00:33:08.378
thinking through
00:33:08.378 --> 00:33:13.088
your principles outside the course is
that it doesn't matter how many you have.
00:33:13.208 --> 00:33:13.508
so you
00:33:13.508 --> 00:33:15.668
don't have to have seven,
you don't have to have three.
00:33:16.028 --> 00:33:19.508
If you are in the course, then there'll
be a word limit on your assessment.
00:33:19.658 --> 00:33:19.748
Mm-hmm.
00:33:20.178 --> 00:33:23.418
And so we do encourage you to think
about the ones that are specific
00:33:23.418 --> 00:33:27.658
to your particular context and the
things that make you different from
00:33:27.658 --> 00:33:28.978
the student sitting next to you.
00:33:29.338 --> 00:33:29.818
But
00:33:30.188 --> 00:33:32.168
you don't actually have to have a limit.
00:33:32.588 --> 00:33:36.508
And one of the beautiful things about
developing a ministry philosophy, like
00:33:36.508 --> 00:33:38.908
a, a collection of, of your principles.
00:33:39.298 --> 00:33:39.598
Is
00:33:39.598 --> 00:33:41.008
that you can keep refining it.
00:33:41.038 --> 00:33:45.358
So as you grow, as you read more books,
as you interact with more people, as
00:33:45.358 --> 00:33:49.948
you gain more experience, hopefully
your ministry philosophy is becoming
00:33:50.188 --> 00:33:50.428
more
00:33:50.428 --> 00:33:52.618
refined, more clear.
00:33:53.278 --> 00:33:56.038
A better reflection of what you believe.
00:33:56.043 --> 00:33:56.063
More
00:33:56.203 --> 00:33:57.913
AL: robust mo More coherent.
00:33:58.093 --> 00:33:58.153
Yeah.
00:33:58.183 --> 00:33:58.723
Fuller.
00:33:58.813 --> 00:34:00.223
Yeah, absolutely.
00:34:00.523 --> 00:34:05.233
And just thinking as well about, you
know, that the, the question of something
00:34:05.233 --> 00:34:08.083
like the authority of scripture, it
might actually be that it doesn't make
00:34:08.083 --> 00:34:11.743
it into your ministry philosophy because
it already exists in a statement of faith
00:34:12.073 --> 00:34:15.583
or a set of principles or values that
your church has already articulated.
00:34:15.673 --> 00:34:16.093
Annemarie: Good point.
00:34:16.268 --> 00:34:20.108
AL: And so, you know, and actually
a lot of those things that will sit
00:34:20.108 --> 00:34:24.298
in the, you know, church's belief
statement, they also are principles,
00:34:24.568 --> 00:34:28.468
but they're just very, very high level
principles that actually animate or
00:34:28.468 --> 00:34:30.688
drive everything about church life.
00:34:30.988 --> 00:34:34.708
And so as you kind of, I guess we're
talking, talked about levels, like,
00:34:34.708 --> 00:34:38.608
as you sort of jump down levels to
being more specific, you don't wanna
00:34:38.608 --> 00:34:43.078
go too specific where you end up with,
you know, like a principle about.
00:34:43.458 --> 00:34:45.023
You know, the importance tea?
00:34:45.133 --> 00:34:45.423
Yeah.
00:34:45.523 --> 00:34:49.578
Or the, or the importance of, you
know, neat clothing or something.
00:34:49.578 --> 00:34:50.088
I don't know.
00:34:50.518 --> 00:34:54.148
You might have ministry practices
associated with morning tea and
00:34:54.418 --> 00:34:57.478
neat clothing, but to devote a
principle to them is probably
00:34:57.628 --> 00:34:58.618
overkill, I would've thought.
00:34:58.973 --> 00:35:02.803
Annemarie: And that actually leads
us nicely to the the force test.
00:35:03.103 --> 00:35:06.653
Because like some of those things that
you just mentioned aren't particularly
00:35:06.653 --> 00:35:08.633
applicable to kids or youth ministry.
00:35:08.758 --> 00:35:08.878
AL: Mm-hmm.
00:35:09.788 --> 00:35:11.318
Combing, like combing your hair.
00:35:12.278 --> 00:35:12.368
Yes.
00:35:12.368 --> 00:35:16.418
I mean, I can imagine a lot of
youth that might need to comb their
00:35:16.418 --> 00:35:17.468
hair for the sake of the gospel.
00:35:17.468 --> 00:35:17.918
We'll see.
00:35:18.158 --> 00:35:19.748
But no, yeah, that's right.
00:35:19.748 --> 00:35:20.768
But yeah, that's right.
00:35:20.768 --> 00:35:24.008
So, you know, the fourth test is
can you apply the principle, the
00:35:24.008 --> 00:35:25.058
youth and children's ministry?
00:35:25.058 --> 00:35:29.048
And if you can't, it's a
very, it's likely a very true.
00:35:29.803 --> 00:35:31.033
Irrelevant principle.
00:35:31.313 --> 00:35:34.643
And so if it's hard to, to apply
specifically to your youth or
00:35:34.643 --> 00:35:39.143
children's ministry, it may be that it's
either too broad or it's too narrow.
00:35:39.473 --> 00:35:43.133
And so, I mean, those are the main
tests that we kind of think about.
00:35:43.433 --> 00:35:46.363
A couple of other things that we think
about when we when we are developing
00:35:46.363 --> 00:35:49.453
principles is avoiding should language.
00:35:50.683 --> 00:35:52.663
Why do we wanna avoid should language,
00:35:53.383 --> 00:35:55.993
what's an example of a
sh a should principle?
00:35:56.593 --> 00:35:57.043
You know,
00:35:57.583 --> 00:36:01.993
Annemarie: leaders should
always be trained in first aid.
00:36:02.128 --> 00:36:02.668
AL: Yeah.
00:36:02.728 --> 00:36:05.608
Or even leaders should
be trained in anything
00:36:06.533 --> 00:36:07.708
in exegesis.
00:36:07.888 --> 00:36:08.038
Yes.
00:36:08.098 --> 00:36:10.228
That's a pretty good, that's a
pretty good thing to do, right?
00:36:10.438 --> 00:36:10.678
Yes.
00:36:10.888 --> 00:36:14.098
Why do we avoid the, the should
or, you know, the should?
00:36:14.143 --> 00:36:14.713
Annemarie: language?
00:36:15.283 --> 00:36:17.803
Well, I think there's a few reasons,
but the two that spring to mind
00:36:17.803 --> 00:36:19.933
firth like should is guilt language.
00:36:20.043 --> 00:36:23.013
But we're setting up laws
and rules that are not.
00:36:23.193 --> 00:36:23.733
AL: not,
00:36:24.048 --> 00:36:25.878
Annemarie: We have no
right to put in place.
00:36:26.158 --> 00:36:29.248
So even though as a ministry leader,
an employed ministry leader, for
00:36:29.248 --> 00:36:34.538
some of us there is a degree of
responsibility to oversee ministry wisely.
00:36:34.818 --> 00:36:38.958
We don't really want to be setting
up rules that sort of define
00:36:38.958 --> 00:36:41.498
somebody's faith and service.
00:36:41.838 --> 00:36:43.458
In ways that Jesus hasn't done.
00:36:43.923 --> 00:36:44.283
AL: Mm.
00:36:44.673 --> 00:36:48.978
And I think also, I mean, related
to that the, the should language
00:36:48.978 --> 00:36:50.538
drives us towards practice.
00:36:50.838 --> 00:36:54.113
And the whole point of articulating
the principle is that we we're, we're
00:36:54.198 --> 00:36:58.998
stating a, a true thing, not setting
up a, a practice that must be followed.
00:36:59.448 --> 00:37:03.708
And so that, you know, like all
leaders should be trained in exegesis.
00:37:04.428 --> 00:37:06.018
Well, that's really just a practice.
00:37:06.198 --> 00:37:12.218
Okay, so why not say something more
like, you know, A Leader's capacity
00:37:12.218 --> 00:37:16.298
to read and understand and apply
the Bible is vital to ministry.
00:37:17.168 --> 00:37:18.668
Effectiveness or something like that.
00:37:18.998 --> 00:37:23.028
The practice then being that all
leaders are trained in exegesis.
00:37:23.208 --> 00:37:23.268
Yeah.
00:37:23.328 --> 00:37:27.558
So avoiding the should language just
kind of ensures that we stick to the
00:37:27.558 --> 00:37:30.768
true thing, not the practice that
we're actually trying to justify.
00:37:30.918 --> 00:37:31.308
Annemarie: Yeah.
00:37:31.308 --> 00:37:32.118
And that again, that
00:37:32.358 --> 00:37:32.538
it
00:37:32.538 --> 00:37:35.298
also impacts our practice
in terms of context.
00:37:35.298 --> 00:37:39.598
So if your context is different
the type of exegesis training,
00:37:39.658 --> 00:37:42.718
even if it's technically exegesis
training or something else.
00:37:43.088 --> 00:37:44.018
Is gonna look different.
00:37:44.018 --> 00:37:46.658
And so you yeah, you don't wanna
lock yourself into something that's
00:37:46.658 --> 00:37:48.728
not actually gonna be helpful
00:37:48.878 --> 00:37:49.208
because
00:37:49.208 --> 00:37:51.128
it isn't true in every context.
00:37:51.133 --> 00:37:51.293
Yeah.
00:37:51.368 --> 00:37:55.868
AL: And, and you know, I can imagine a, a
youth ministry that's run by exclusively
00:37:55.868 --> 00:37:58.138
fourth year SNBC or more college.
00:37:58.623 --> 00:38:04.563
Students will perhaps their training
in exegesis is not required because
00:38:04.563 --> 00:38:05.613
they've just been doing that.
00:38:05.743 --> 00:38:08.713
And so the context, again, it's not
true in every context, which I think
00:38:08.713 --> 00:38:09.943
is a really helpful thing to point out.
00:38:10.183 --> 00:38:10.393
Annemarie: that's right.
00:38:10.603 --> 00:38:10.843
AL: that's right.
00:38:11.004 --> 00:38:11.117
Annemarie: Is
00:38:11.197 --> 00:38:11.887
AL: anything else you wanna say?
00:38:11.887 --> 00:38:11.917
I
00:38:12.832 --> 00:38:13.582
Annemarie: I don't think so.
00:38:13.582 --> 00:38:18.322
I think it's been helpful to, yeah, think
about moving from principle to practice
00:38:18.322 --> 00:38:20.032
and why we think that's important.
00:38:20.402 --> 00:38:22.832
And what a ministry philosophy looks like.
00:38:22.992 --> 00:38:24.942
I really like our thinking formula.
00:38:25.372 --> 00:38:30.582
I hope it's helpful to people because
yeah, it's really just a way of capturing
00:38:30.582 --> 00:38:34.762
the process which is messy and changeable.
00:38:35.232 --> 00:38:39.432
for some of us it will be quick, and
others it'll be slow and that's all fine.
00:38:39.822 --> 00:38:40.032
But
00:38:40.032 --> 00:38:44.382
it's, I guess just a way of
visualizing and articulating
00:38:44.532 --> 00:38:46.092
what's hopefully happening.
00:38:46.422 --> 00:38:48.192
Through the course, but also for,
00:38:48.312 --> 00:38:48.522
for
00:38:48.522 --> 00:38:53.822
all of us as we think about ministry as
we listen to podcasts, as we read books.
00:38:54.172 --> 00:38:56.932
And as we let that inform
what we do week to week.
00:38:56.977 --> 00:38:57.267
AL: Yeah.
00:38:57.487 --> 00:39:00.092
And that like, we're always
taking in new knowledge.
00:39:00.092 --> 00:39:04.012
And so to just have a process to kind
of, integrate that knowledge, whether
00:39:04.012 --> 00:39:08.722
that looks like total rejection or
accommodation or changing or tweaking
00:39:08.722 --> 00:39:12.842
or just cherry picking or whatever it
is it's a really helpful thing to have.
00:39:13.262 --> 00:39:16.442
Emery, if there was one last thing.
00:39:17.072 --> 00:39:17.402
Annemarie: that,
00:39:17.462 --> 00:39:20.972
AL: You know, whether it's people in the
course or whether it's just listeners
00:39:20.972 --> 00:39:26.242
out there in podcast land that you,
you know, you, you want them to take
00:39:26.242 --> 00:39:28.312
away from this, what would it be?
00:39:29.587 --> 00:39:33.487
Annemarie: I think it would be around
like, letting our theology drive
00:39:33.487 --> 00:39:33.547
our,
00:39:33.982 --> 00:39:34.312
AL: our,
00:39:34.627 --> 00:39:35.377
Annemarie: our practice.
00:39:35.377 --> 00:39:40.387
So we, we just really want our
ministry practice, like the things
00:39:40.387 --> 00:39:43.267
that we do, the things that we
say, the things we prioritize.
00:39:43.607 --> 00:39:44.357
To be
00:39:44.567 --> 00:39:45.227
intentional
00:39:45.467 --> 00:39:50.327
choices because of what Jesus says in the
Bible, because of what God has revealed.
00:39:50.627 --> 00:39:53.537
Like it, it it must come from that place.
00:39:53.987 --> 00:39:54.377
AL: Mm, love it.
00:39:54.917 --> 00:39:56.507
Well, thanks Emory.
00:39:56.507 --> 00:39:59.297
Good times, good chats and
yeah, looking forward to more.
00:39:59.322 --> 00:39:59.672
Great.
00:40:00.102 --> 00:40:00.322
Annemarie: Bye.