Supporting Children Through Divorce

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Welcome to The Educational Dilemma. I'm your
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host, Emma Goldsmith, head of the Dragon School
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in Oxford. Thank you for listening. In this episode
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of The Educational Dilemma, we are discussing
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divorce. We're talking about how to manage children's
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emotions during a really troubled time. We talk
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about what information to share with the school
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when you are either facing a separation or during
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the process. It's a tricky subject, but we have
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some outstanding guests who can help you navigate
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this really tricky journey. So welcome to this
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edition of The Educational Dilemma. And we're
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going to be talking about the thorny issue of
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divorce. And today's guests are going to introduce
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themselves. So we're going to start with Tara.
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Hi, Emma. My name is Tara MacDonald and I am
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an adult and child psychotherapist. I live and
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work in Cheltenham and have a private practice
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there. And I work with... across the lifespan,
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so from very little all the way through to adolescence.
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And I also work with adults. And I have a variety
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of approaches to support children, whether it's
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play therapy or traditional, more traditional
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counselling. But I have a real passion for working
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and supporting parents. So try as much as possible
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to... support the system, the family system,
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regardless of the reason why someone might be
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coming to see me. Amazing. And Mary -Kate, now
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I do have to tell listeners that Mary -Kate is
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known as MK and I know I will slip into that.
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So Mary -Kate, do you want to introduce yourself?
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Thank you very much. So I'm Mary -Kate and I
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work at The Dragon and my key roles are as Head
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of Upper School, which is overseeing the top
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two year groups, that's year seven and eight.
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their pastoral and academic journey. I'm also
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mental health lead, which is taking a systemic
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approach, looking at both the universal and the
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specialist needs of all children in the school.
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And finally, I do work as part of the safeguarding
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team. So I'm a deputy designated safeguarding
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lead. And I love my job. I love supporting the
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children through the ups and downs of life. And
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with that obviously comes parents. And I really
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appreciate the time I get with parents to talk
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things through and work with them to support
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their children. Yeah, and I think it's fair to
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say that, you know, the way in which schools
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support families has changed quite dramatically.
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And certainly, I think parents do turn to the
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school at these points in time where they need
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support, as well as obviously coming up with
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a plan of how we support children. And divorce
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is one of those things that, you know, we've
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had vast experience with. It's fair to say that,
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you know, the divorce levels are... are rising
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and our children are experiencing blended families
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more frequently. And it is often, I feel, much
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better if parents, if they are about to embark
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on a separation, that they do involve school.
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And I know that can be really quite uncomfortable
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for parents. But I mean, MK, coming to you first,
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I mean, would you endorse that, that actually...
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if parents are even starting to have these thoughts
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that they involve school as early as possible?
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Yeah, I think with any family, whatever they're
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facing, but particularly with this focus around
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separation and divorce, communication is key.
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And that's both ways. So not only them sharing
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with us in a space they're comfortable and a
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way they're comfortable of what they're going
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through and how that might impact the family
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dynamic and their children, as well as themselves.
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But also it's really important we as a school
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communicate clearly. I think it's really hard
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sometimes if parents share something and then
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don't get enough back. And I think you alluded
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to the fact there's been a big shift in the way
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we support schools. And I think we're so much
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better now at opening, you know, keeping that
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door open with parents and working closely in
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communication with them to support their child.
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Yeah, because Tara, when you're working with
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families, what advice do you give about sharing
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this idea that this might be a possibility or
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that they're embarking on separation? How do
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you advise parents as to how to involve the school?
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Well, I think sort of my starting point, actually,
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regardless of the issue of referral with parents
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is, and how are you? And I think that that would
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be my first position in this context because
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when we're asking people who are going through
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very painful experiences to share that information,
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there has to be a level of emotional readiness
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for them, whether that's they're sharing it with
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the school or they're sharing it with their child.
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And whilst I think you're absolutely spot on,
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I think that there is... it's essential that
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school are aware of what's happening for families
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so that they can best support their students.
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But I think from a school position within that,
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there needs to be obviously boundaries from your
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end about how you then manage what's happening.
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So naturally with some separation and divorce
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situations, there's a lot of conflict and there's
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a lot of difficulties happening within that system.
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I come from a child -centred position, which
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I have no doubt you do too. And so typically,
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unless there is a lot of conflict going on or
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there is a lot of change within the system before
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a separation has been announced or decided, I
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would possibly be thinking about making sure
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that the children are aware of what is happening
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within their own family. alongside school being
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informed. I would be, in some contexts, I would
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be a bit nervous about school having information
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about a child's life that they themselves are
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not necessarily aware of first, for all sorts
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of reasons. So I think that this might be something
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which all needs to kind of happen at the same
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time, if you like. Yeah, I'd agree with that.
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And Tara, sorry to interrupt you, but... Because
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we have boarders at our school and certainly
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MK and I have worked in boarding and there have
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been occasions where, you know, as a professional,
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I was once asked to tell the children about the
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divorce on behalf of the parent. And, you know,
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I think your advice is absolutely sage that you
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have to put the child at the centre of this and
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actually they need very open and understandable.
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And I guess that that takes us to those initial
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conversations with children. How do you broach
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the conversation with your children if you are
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thinking about separating? Well, first of all,
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make sure you're ready to have that conversation.
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I mean, you know, in a perfect world where there
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is imperfect because a family is going through
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this big change. It would happen with both parties.
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So it would be that both parents were able to
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have that conversation with the child. Obviously,
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developmentally appropriate. So, you know, we're
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thinking about sort of how to keep things as
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simple as possible. And, you know, taking into
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account the sort of developmental stage that
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each, you know, the child is at will have a big
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impact on what you share and how you share it,
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I think. You know, when I was thinking about
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coming on today, it was a really interesting
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conversation with myself when I was thinking
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back to families I've supported through this
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process. And the difficult thing is, is that
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it really depends on each and every family. Context
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is everything, really. But, you know, if we were
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to sort of talk about the idea, what would happen
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ideally, it would be both parents together. sort
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of thinking about this developmentally so you
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know if it's a very little child then they're
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perhaps going to be a bit more egocentric they're
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going to be worried about their part to play
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in it you know as we're moving up to perhaps
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sort of you know six six to eight year olds then
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we can start to think about perhaps they might
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be worried that they have some um loyalty to
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different parents they're trying to organize
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themselves around that and then moving up The
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older we get, in a way, thought becomes more
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complex. So they're likely to have more complex
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questions, more curiosity about actually the
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whys and the wherefores. And I think that's a
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very difficult landscape for parents because
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children absolutely have a right to know their
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story. And I think children need to know the
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truth and the facts about whatever is happening.
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without them being pulled into the adult's world.
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I couldn't agree more. And MK, have you seen
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this when it hasn't worked and a child is finding
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it really difficult to kind of come to terms
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with the conversation that's happened? How does
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that manifest itself? I think going back a step,
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what's really interesting is most often we see
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children already know. that there's something.
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So I think parents can build themselves up to
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a moment to tell their children and then are
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quite taken aback that the children have sort
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of semi -worked it out. So I think, you know,
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they're inevitably, when there's a separation
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or divorce, there's signs in the home and the
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children will pick up on that and they'll be
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at different stages of their processing of that,
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partly depending on how much they've asked already.
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So we find some children are really open with
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their parents and almost challenge them. Are
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you getting divorced? And then that's quite tricky
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because if the parents have said no, because
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they genuinely don't know yet, it can lead to
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trust issues. It's so complex. But with school,
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we tend to get children might open up and we'll
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be talking about... Because we know behaviour
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is a message and a behaviour in school. And we'll
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just ask that little question around, is everything
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OK? Or I just have noticed dot, dot, dot. And
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suddenly the floodgates open and they talk about
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unrest at home and challenges or something a
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parent has shared, but another parent hasn't.
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And I mean, in a way, we're really grateful for
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that childlike openness because that can help
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support us as a school to support the parents.
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And I think what's really key is, as you said,
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I can't remember if it was Tara or Emma, that
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everyone's different in what they're going through
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and everything's unique. And the key thing as
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a school is we're non -judgmental. I think sometimes
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a child can mention something that's going on
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at home. And as an adult, you think, oh, problem
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solve mode. I know what's going on. It must be
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this. And you just got to step back from that.
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And you've got to then allow the parent to feel
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heard. Because as soon as you talk to the parent,
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if you talk about the child's emotions, that's
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incredibly emotional for the parent. And that
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might be the tipping point of them being able
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to cope with managing a conversation. So it's
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just treading really carefully as a school in
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that support. But as you say, Tara, it's child
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-centred approach, working out for the wellbeing
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of the child. Absolutely. Because what is...
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And again, we're talking about typical things
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in an untypical world, but what are the emotional
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needs of a child, Tara, in that situation where
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they've been told that there is going to be a
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separation? What are the needs of the child at
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that moment? Well, I think the first thing to
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name is that not all children are massively impacted
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by their parents separating. So I think it's
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really important to, you know, To hold on to
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that because, and that really depends on the
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containment and the consistency of the adults
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around them. You know, for some children, actually
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moving into a separated situation is much healthier.
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Everybody's much happier. And so everybody's
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needs are met. And that can actually result in
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a much more, in greater stability for that child.
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Yes. So I think it's really important for us
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to think about that, first of all. Because a
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lot of times, you know, in my practice, I will
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talk to parents who, you know, for the best will
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in the world, are sticking through a very challenging
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relationship for the sake of the children. And
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that, in many instances, is not the best thing
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for the children. I know I'm going slightly off
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topic here, but that's made me link up to something
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that Mary -Kate said about, you know, children
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already know. Yes. And one of the most, one very
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difficult thing which children really find very
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difficult to integrate and which ends up in behaviours
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is when the adults around them are in Congress.
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Yes. So children know, but the adults are pretending
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everything's fine. And that becomes very difficult
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for children to organise themselves around because,
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you know, they're sensing something, but no one's
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being honest with them. Yeah. And they do know,
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they pick that up immediately, don't they, if
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they're not being, but how honest should you
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be? Because there's also that balance as well
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about. transparency and honesty and actually
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not giving perhaps the child too much responsibility
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for knowing too much, if that makes sense. I
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mean, Mary -Kate, does that ring true in terms
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of children's involvement? Yeah, and I think
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it's so hard. And I mean, this obviously goes
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to a broader topic of anything your child can
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bring up with you and you don't know quite how
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age appropriately they'd share the answer. But
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in this instance, I think it's giving them enough
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in that moment and then seeking advice. So maybe
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what I tend to say is actually ask the child
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a question back. I don't know Tara whether this
00:14:53.419 --> 00:14:56.460
is, but you know, if the child says, you're arguing
00:14:56.460 --> 00:15:00.919
all the time, are you going to divorce? You say,
00:15:01.019 --> 00:15:03.059
gosh, I'm really interested that you've noticed
00:15:03.059 --> 00:15:07.620
that. you know, how are you feeling? You know,
00:15:07.639 --> 00:15:09.919
maybe just to understand where their child is
00:15:09.919 --> 00:15:13.600
at and then maybe give them a little nugget of,
00:15:13.740 --> 00:15:16.960
you know, it can be really hard sometimes as
00:15:16.960 --> 00:15:19.820
two adults to work together and there will be,
00:15:19.860 --> 00:15:22.200
you know, because... Actually, in relationships
00:15:22.200 --> 00:15:23.919
which don't end in separation and divorce, there
00:15:23.919 --> 00:15:25.399
are going to be big blow -ups. There's going
00:15:25.399 --> 00:15:28.639
to be big moments of conflict. And you sometimes
00:15:28.639 --> 00:15:31.759
have to explain that. And so I suppose the first
00:15:31.759 --> 00:15:34.000
touchpoint might be reassurance that it is normal
00:15:34.000 --> 00:15:37.259
that there is conflict and that, you know, we're
00:15:37.259 --> 00:15:40.960
working together to make decisions and maybe
00:15:40.960 --> 00:15:43.340
just leave the door open but park it and get
00:15:43.340 --> 00:15:47.800
some advice from someone like Tara. Because,
00:15:47.800 --> 00:15:50.080
of course, what you don't want to do as a parent
00:15:50.080 --> 00:15:53.799
is you don't want to suddenly offload your emotional
00:15:53.799 --> 00:15:57.320
burden on your child. And you also might be sharing
00:15:57.320 --> 00:16:00.940
things only you have thought and your partner
00:16:00.940 --> 00:16:04.960
might not have thought it. So you've got to work
00:16:04.960 --> 00:16:07.000
together. I think that's a really good point.
00:16:07.100 --> 00:16:09.659
Yeah. Absolutely. And when you say work together,
00:16:09.720 --> 00:16:11.580
MK, are you meaning the parents working together?
00:16:11.679 --> 00:16:14.279
Yes, I mean, which obviously may be really hard,
00:16:14.299 --> 00:16:15.720
particularly if there's a lot of conflict, but
00:16:15.720 --> 00:16:18.139
maybe just at least come to the decision together
00:16:18.139 --> 00:16:21.559
that things are tricky at the moment. Because,
00:16:21.639 --> 00:16:23.500
you know, one might not be thinking of separation,
00:16:23.720 --> 00:16:26.059
the other might. So I'm finding things tricky,
00:16:26.179 --> 00:16:30.460
maybe the I emotions. You know, I'd really like
00:16:30.460 --> 00:16:32.340
to find a space to be able to talk about this.
00:16:33.159 --> 00:16:35.059
Now, it might be that you can then sit down and
00:16:35.059 --> 00:16:36.639
talk about it and work through and you might
00:16:36.639 --> 00:16:38.740
both be in agreement. And that's usually where
00:16:38.740 --> 00:16:41.659
parents then work together to find a way forward
00:16:41.659 --> 00:16:44.460
with a separation. But it might be the other
00:16:44.460 --> 00:16:46.320
one goes, what are you talking about? I had no
00:16:46.320 --> 00:16:49.039
idea. And so then you might need to get a third
00:16:49.039 --> 00:16:53.440
party involved and then work with them to come
00:16:53.440 --> 00:16:56.980
up with a plan. Yeah, I think you made a really
00:16:56.980 --> 00:16:58.879
interesting point. And it's one that I've heard
00:16:58.879 --> 00:17:01.559
time and time again, Tara, about parents thinking
00:17:01.559 --> 00:17:03.500
they should stay together for the sake of the
00:17:03.500 --> 00:17:06.619
children. And I have to say, I've never seen
00:17:06.619 --> 00:17:09.180
that work successfully. And I'm really glad that
00:17:09.180 --> 00:17:11.640
you articulated that, because I think if anybody
00:17:11.640 --> 00:17:14.299
is listening and thinking, actually, that's something
00:17:14.299 --> 00:17:17.099
they should do. My experience, as you say, for
00:17:17.099 --> 00:17:19.180
some children, sometimes a separation is a relief.
00:17:20.160 --> 00:17:22.380
And, you know, if you're in a household perhaps
00:17:22.380 --> 00:17:25.019
where there is addiction involved in the challenges
00:17:25.019 --> 00:17:27.440
in that family, you know, as you say, having
00:17:27.440 --> 00:17:31.240
that separation is going to benefit the child
00:17:31.240 --> 00:17:34.119
from that point of view, which is kind of quite
00:17:34.119 --> 00:17:38.180
tricky. If we can kind of move past the point
00:17:38.180 --> 00:17:41.799
at which the separation is happening, how...
00:17:42.349 --> 00:17:45.430
What is important to focus on, Tara, once the
00:17:45.430 --> 00:17:47.410
parents are separated in terms of supporting
00:17:47.410 --> 00:17:52.910
the needs of the child in that situation? Well,
00:17:53.029 --> 00:17:55.789
I think that, you know, we know that the sort
00:17:55.789 --> 00:17:59.470
of best outcomes, if you like, for children who
00:17:59.470 --> 00:18:03.869
really helps them after divorce is that they
00:18:03.869 --> 00:18:06.470
have as strong as possible a relationship with
00:18:06.470 --> 00:18:10.539
both parents, regardless of the... contact arrangements
00:18:10.539 --> 00:18:14.099
or you know the um who the child spends time
00:18:14.099 --> 00:18:16.640
with but that the relationship with each parent
00:18:16.640 --> 00:18:21.180
is is protected as much as possible um that there
00:18:21.180 --> 00:18:26.940
is consistency and that's an interesting one
00:18:26.940 --> 00:18:29.119
because there might not necessarily that doesn't
00:18:29.119 --> 00:18:32.220
necessarily mean that the same the same parenting
00:18:32.220 --> 00:18:34.599
approaches needs to happen in both households
00:18:35.589 --> 00:18:38.450
But what it does mean is that within each household
00:18:38.450 --> 00:18:41.069
there is consistency in the parenting approach
00:18:41.069 --> 00:18:45.849
that's given. And then the last piece is, as
00:18:45.849 --> 00:18:48.490
we sort of said, you know, minimal exposure to
00:18:48.490 --> 00:18:50.710
conflict. And I think one of the things that
00:18:50.710 --> 00:18:55.700
really happens. you know, as the result of divorce
00:18:55.700 --> 00:18:59.039
is that, you know, we see huge impacts on, you
00:18:59.039 --> 00:19:03.579
know, financial situations, moving house, changes
00:19:03.579 --> 00:19:06.759
in childcare. There might be cultural considerations.
00:19:07.359 --> 00:19:13.220
And all of those are adult pieces. But sometimes
00:19:13.220 --> 00:19:16.119
that can slip into the child's world, you know,
00:19:16.160 --> 00:19:19.980
money concerns or worries about, you know, organising
00:19:19.980 --> 00:19:22.519
who has who for holiday, those sorts of pieces.
00:19:23.380 --> 00:19:26.559
And so I think there's a big, you know, as much
00:19:26.559 --> 00:19:29.880
as possible to try and make sure that any conversations
00:19:29.880 --> 00:19:34.319
that an adult has to make are kept for the adults
00:19:34.319 --> 00:19:37.470
to make. And that children are just left out
00:19:37.470 --> 00:19:39.630
of that. That doesn't mean that they don't have
00:19:39.630 --> 00:19:44.329
autonomy or some sort of capacity to be asked,
00:19:44.430 --> 00:19:48.150
but not asked in a way where it's their responsibility
00:19:48.150 --> 00:19:52.990
to make the decision. That's so sage. I couldn't
00:19:52.990 --> 00:19:57.150
agree more. And I think we see where children
00:19:57.150 --> 00:20:00.430
are also holding that responsibility that they
00:20:00.430 --> 00:20:03.500
made a decision. that has hurt one of the other
00:20:03.500 --> 00:20:05.039
parents because they were put in that position
00:20:05.039 --> 00:20:08.140
is not a situation we should put children in.
00:20:08.279 --> 00:20:11.339
And MK, you're nodding to recognise when this
00:20:11.339 --> 00:20:14.680
hasn't gone well. Yeah, I mean, we do see on
00:20:14.680 --> 00:20:17.559
a lot of it, well, I want to just say, empathise.
00:20:17.559 --> 00:20:21.140
It's really hard not to share your opinions with
00:20:21.140 --> 00:20:23.500
your children. You know, even on the lowest,
00:20:23.640 --> 00:20:26.220
slightest level, you know, within a marriage,
00:20:26.380 --> 00:20:29.180
you know, not slightly dissing your other half.
00:20:29.850 --> 00:20:32.230
in front of your children. So, of course, if
00:20:32.230 --> 00:20:35.029
you're frustrated or angry or sad about something,
00:20:35.269 --> 00:20:38.369
that's going to be even harder. So I suppose
00:20:38.369 --> 00:20:40.569
first and foremost is the parent giving yourself
00:20:40.569 --> 00:20:45.990
the space and the outlet to be able to offload
00:20:45.990 --> 00:20:48.769
all those frustrations to someone who will listen
00:20:48.769 --> 00:20:52.549
and just listen, really, because often it can't
00:20:52.549 --> 00:20:56.470
be helped. So that then you're ready in a space.
00:20:56.970 --> 00:20:58.890
to talk to your children because so often we
00:20:58.890 --> 00:21:01.650
have children who come in and one of their heartaches
00:21:01.650 --> 00:21:05.549
is that they don't know who to please or who
00:21:05.549 --> 00:21:08.970
to believe. They feel sometimes they're the messenger
00:21:08.970 --> 00:21:14.130
in between because they know their parents don't
00:21:14.130 --> 00:21:16.750
like talking and they get sort of given messages.
00:21:17.990 --> 00:21:20.650
And it is really damaging because ultimately
00:21:20.650 --> 00:21:25.589
our children's, our dialogue becomes our children's.
00:21:26.779 --> 00:21:31.539
Too often, a child hears one parent and then
00:21:31.539 --> 00:21:33.119
that's how they're speaking about their other
00:21:33.119 --> 00:21:36.539
parent. So I think we have to be really cautious
00:21:36.539 --> 00:21:41.980
as the adults not to overshare and prioritise
00:21:41.980 --> 00:21:44.240
offloading before we speak to the child about
00:21:44.240 --> 00:21:46.339
anything difficult linked to the relationship,
00:21:46.660 --> 00:21:52.970
time management. We do see the importance, as
00:21:52.970 --> 00:21:56.990
Tara says, of consistency. You know, it can be
00:21:56.990 --> 00:21:59.869
really hard. As a school, it's really hard for
00:21:59.869 --> 00:22:01.930
the child if they've, let's say, been with one
00:22:01.930 --> 00:22:04.089
parent and then they've stayed with another.
00:22:04.250 --> 00:22:06.190
All could have gone really smoothly, but they
00:22:06.190 --> 00:22:07.609
arrive into school with that parent and they
00:22:07.609 --> 00:22:10.089
haven't got some kit or they've left something
00:22:10.089 --> 00:22:12.170
at the other parent's house. And if they then
00:22:12.170 --> 00:22:14.539
walk into the lesson and get a... you know, a
00:22:14.539 --> 00:22:17.460
bad mark for it or a comment from a teacher,
00:22:17.519 --> 00:22:19.539
that can be really detrimental because they're
00:22:19.539 --> 00:22:22.039
carrying the burden of having made a mistake
00:22:22.039 --> 00:22:25.200
potentially, but also who do they blame? You
00:22:25.200 --> 00:22:28.339
know, and it starts to build. So I think the
00:22:28.339 --> 00:22:31.259
school having awareness of children who are,
00:22:31.299 --> 00:22:34.720
you know, going to different parents at different
00:22:34.720 --> 00:22:38.619
times, the challenges of that can really help
00:22:38.619 --> 00:22:41.559
support the child. Yeah. And I think, you know,
00:22:41.559 --> 00:22:43.500
sometimes we overthink it because actually the
00:22:43.500 --> 00:22:46.460
consistency piece is children wanting to know,
00:22:46.480 --> 00:22:48.519
well, where am I going to sleep when I stay with
00:22:48.519 --> 00:22:51.220
X? Or, you know, how am I going? You know, it's
00:22:51.220 --> 00:22:53.599
really practical things. I think you need to
00:22:53.599 --> 00:22:55.460
reassure children. And, you know, am I going
00:22:55.460 --> 00:22:57.740
to have to take clothes from one place to another
00:22:57.740 --> 00:23:00.299
or am I going to have different clothes at different
00:23:00.299 --> 00:23:03.299
different houses? It's actually the practicalities
00:23:03.299 --> 00:23:08.349
that can give them real. about, and sometimes
00:23:08.349 --> 00:23:09.970
we overthink and think, oh gosh, it's all about
00:23:09.970 --> 00:23:12.109
the emotional side. No, they want to know how
00:23:12.109 --> 00:23:14.349
is this going to work and what time am I going
00:23:14.349 --> 00:23:16.130
to have to get up if I'm staying with daddy or
00:23:16.130 --> 00:23:19.250
mummy and getting to school and so on. So it's
00:23:19.250 --> 00:23:21.990
not forgetting that consistency is actually about
00:23:21.990 --> 00:23:24.809
the practicalities of their day -to -day life.
00:23:25.529 --> 00:23:28.809
And as you say, Tara, it's making sure they have
00:23:28.809 --> 00:23:33.799
a voice, but it is... It is about the adults
00:23:33.799 --> 00:23:35.519
having that conversation. I remember someone
00:23:35.519 --> 00:23:39.559
very wisely saying to me that, yes, you're divorcing
00:23:39.559 --> 00:23:43.519
the person in your relationship, but you both
00:23:43.519 --> 00:23:46.420
remain parents and you have to have a relationship,
00:23:46.660 --> 00:23:48.859
no matter how difficult that is, because you're
00:23:48.859 --> 00:23:51.319
going to remain parents of this child for the
00:23:51.319 --> 00:23:53.599
rest of their lives. That's not going to change.
00:23:53.779 --> 00:23:55.819
And that's a really important distinction to
00:23:55.819 --> 00:23:58.279
make. So you've got to have those open lines
00:23:58.279 --> 00:24:00.480
of communication about the children, regardless
00:24:00.480 --> 00:24:03.359
of... the tensions in your relationship, the
00:24:03.359 --> 00:24:06.460
child's life has to be at the centre of your
00:24:06.460 --> 00:24:11.619
behaviours, if you like. I mean, Tara, in terms
00:24:11.619 --> 00:24:14.180
of those parents who are struggling with communicating
00:24:14.180 --> 00:24:17.960
sensibly about parenting, is there any advice
00:24:17.960 --> 00:24:20.440
you can give about how to try and keep those
00:24:20.440 --> 00:24:23.099
lines of communication open when you might be
00:24:23.099 --> 00:24:25.460
talking about difficult things like... Perhaps
00:24:25.460 --> 00:24:26.859
there's been an affair or there's difficulty
00:24:26.859 --> 00:24:30.160
with finances. I mean, how can we support parents
00:24:30.160 --> 00:24:37.220
to keep those lines of communication open? I
00:24:37.220 --> 00:24:39.680
mean, I think, you know, I'm sort of thinking,
00:24:39.819 --> 00:24:44.000
you know, as a therapist, it would be a different
00:24:44.000 --> 00:24:48.839
experience, I suppose, than to a school. You
00:24:48.839 --> 00:24:51.480
know, if we step back and look at this from the
00:24:51.480 --> 00:24:54.240
child -centered approach and really do hold the
00:24:54.240 --> 00:24:56.599
belief that regardless of what's happened for
00:24:56.599 --> 00:25:00.960
the adults, they want the very best for their
00:25:00.960 --> 00:25:05.480
children. And so just bringing it back to the
00:25:05.480 --> 00:25:09.119
child, the child, the child, you know, there
00:25:09.119 --> 00:25:14.059
are certain sort of things that could make life
00:25:14.059 --> 00:25:18.200
easier. For example, you know, perhaps... change
00:25:18.200 --> 00:25:20.400
of day when a child might move, you know, from
00:25:20.400 --> 00:25:23.019
one home to another happens after school. So
00:25:23.019 --> 00:25:26.200
there is less opportunity for the child to experience
00:25:26.200 --> 00:25:28.839
that conflict because, you know, mummy picks
00:25:28.839 --> 00:25:32.660
me up on Tuesday and daddy picks me up on Wednesday
00:25:32.660 --> 00:25:37.119
sort of thing. But it is supporting parents to
00:25:37.119 --> 00:25:40.319
remember that for everything that we're talking
00:25:40.319 --> 00:25:43.759
about, we're coming back to, and what does your
00:25:43.759 --> 00:25:47.089
child need? I think the other thing which is
00:25:47.089 --> 00:25:50.329
really difficult, you know, is that in a lot
00:25:50.329 --> 00:25:55.150
of situations, parents, rightly or wrongly, you
00:25:55.150 --> 00:25:57.890
know, there's no judgment on that at all, but
00:25:57.890 --> 00:26:00.630
might be concerned or preoccupied by what is
00:26:00.630 --> 00:26:03.670
happening in the other parent's house. You know,
00:26:03.710 --> 00:26:05.690
what are happening around mealtimes, what are
00:26:05.690 --> 00:26:09.990
happening with bedtimes. And that is entirely
00:26:09.990 --> 00:26:15.150
understandable. Unless obviously there is some
00:26:15.150 --> 00:26:17.789
safeguarding concerns or some real worries there.
00:26:18.490 --> 00:26:22.410
You know, my work with parents is to support
00:26:22.410 --> 00:26:25.990
them to let that parent do what they do and to
00:26:25.990 --> 00:26:29.289
focus on creating as much consistency as possible
00:26:29.289 --> 00:26:33.470
in their own home. Because that is what you actually
00:26:33.470 --> 00:26:37.130
can control and what you can manage. And children
00:26:37.130 --> 00:26:40.049
can organise themselves around different... family
00:26:40.049 --> 00:26:42.789
systems you know they can they can they have
00:26:42.789 --> 00:26:44.670
an understanding when i'm in this house i can
00:26:44.670 --> 00:26:46.750
do this and when i'm in this house i can do that
00:26:46.750 --> 00:26:51.009
so it comes back to actually what is within your
00:26:51.009 --> 00:26:55.190
control what should be within your control and
00:26:55.190 --> 00:26:59.230
trying to allow the other parent to parent in
00:26:59.230 --> 00:27:01.509
the way that they perceive to be in the best
00:27:01.509 --> 00:27:04.819
interest for their child yeah That's such good
00:27:04.819 --> 00:27:07.900
advice because that happens anyway. For example,
00:27:08.000 --> 00:27:11.880
even in a normal family, if one parent is in
00:27:11.880 --> 00:27:13.920
charge, sometimes the rules are a little bit
00:27:13.920 --> 00:27:16.539
different. So we won't maybe go down that route.
00:27:16.619 --> 00:27:19.759
But that is the reality of it. And I think the
00:27:19.759 --> 00:27:22.430
other thing that... that I've recognised working
00:27:22.430 --> 00:27:24.809
with families in this situation is that sometimes
00:27:24.809 --> 00:27:27.829
each parent feels that it has to be uber special
00:27:27.829 --> 00:27:30.849
and uber exciting when they're with that parent.
00:27:31.109 --> 00:27:33.589
And actually, you know, I think we realise that
00:27:33.589 --> 00:27:37.490
children quite like boring parents, parents who
00:27:37.490 --> 00:27:40.390
are predictable, parents who there's just a normality.
00:27:40.430 --> 00:27:42.930
It doesn't have to be all singing and dancing
00:27:42.930 --> 00:27:45.089
just because you haven't seen them for a couple
00:27:45.089 --> 00:27:47.509
of days. You know, I think we come back to that
00:27:47.509 --> 00:27:51.099
idea that actually spending just time. with children
00:27:51.099 --> 00:27:53.160
when you haven't seen them for a couple of days
00:27:53.160 --> 00:27:56.539
is the most important thing and listening and
00:27:56.539 --> 00:27:58.740
not thinking actually we've got to go out and
00:27:58.740 --> 00:28:00.940
do something amazing or we you know we're going
00:28:00.940 --> 00:28:03.619
on a wildly exotic holiday or whatever actually
00:28:04.269 --> 00:28:06.750
the key thing is the space and time for that
00:28:06.750 --> 00:28:10.029
child to have your attention and the opportunity
00:28:10.029 --> 00:28:14.750
to listen. You're nodding there. Well, it's reminded
00:28:14.750 --> 00:28:18.329
me so much of how children have strong feelings
00:28:18.329 --> 00:28:22.529
and opinions around very little things. And the
00:28:22.529 --> 00:28:24.869
danger as a parent when you're facing big things
00:28:24.869 --> 00:28:28.109
is to ignore those little things and use phrases
00:28:28.109 --> 00:28:30.420
like, oh, don't be so silly. Or, oh, you'll be
00:28:30.420 --> 00:28:33.579
fine. And that could be as much as a little bedtime
00:28:33.579 --> 00:28:37.079
routine or a way somebody does something when
00:28:37.079 --> 00:28:40.519
they pick you up from school. Or maybe it's that
00:28:40.519 --> 00:28:44.420
the bedroom in the new house window is in a different
00:28:44.420 --> 00:28:46.799
position or the light's different. It can be
00:28:46.799 --> 00:28:49.559
tiny little things, but it's so important the
00:28:49.559 --> 00:28:52.500
child feels heard and the parent doesn't feel
00:28:52.500 --> 00:28:55.500
blamed. So as an adult, you've got to remove
00:28:55.500 --> 00:28:59.759
yourself from your child. probably very bluntly
00:28:59.759 --> 00:29:03.039
going, I don't like this room because the bed's
00:29:03.039 --> 00:29:05.720
not comfy. You know, it'll be far bigger than
00:29:05.720 --> 00:29:08.400
that. And what they need is as a parent, you
00:29:08.400 --> 00:29:11.279
just to say, gosh, that must be really hard.
00:29:11.380 --> 00:29:13.220
Let's have a think about what we can change.
00:29:13.759 --> 00:29:15.960
You know, I'm not sure I can get a new bed tonight,
00:29:16.140 --> 00:29:18.160
but what, you know, would you like an extra cushion?
00:29:18.539 --> 00:29:21.500
It's giving them that warmth and that feeling
00:29:21.500 --> 00:29:24.799
heard. Or if they jump in the car and they say,
00:29:24.940 --> 00:29:28.759
why haven't you got my treat? you know, immediately
00:29:28.759 --> 00:29:30.359
you want to go, don't speak to me like that.
00:29:30.460 --> 00:29:32.339
Why would you, you know, because you're on the
00:29:32.339 --> 00:29:33.740
defensive, you're feeling blamed, but actually
00:29:33.740 --> 00:29:36.160
say, do you know, I'm so sorry, that must feel
00:29:36.160 --> 00:29:39.819
really hard. Just allow them to feel heard rather
00:29:39.819 --> 00:29:41.279
than saying, oh, for goodness sake, you'll be
00:29:41.279 --> 00:29:43.599
fine. Because actually they might be worrying
00:29:43.599 --> 00:29:45.900
about something else, a change that is coming
00:29:45.900 --> 00:29:48.119
or something that happened in the school day.
00:29:48.240 --> 00:29:50.460
I mean, it goes back to any form of parenting,
00:29:50.559 --> 00:29:52.500
but ultimately when there's more change for a
00:29:52.500 --> 00:29:55.160
child, they may pick up on little things that
00:29:55.160 --> 00:29:58.240
will cause big outbursts. And they just need
00:29:58.240 --> 00:30:01.599
to be held and heard. Yeah. Do you know what's
00:30:01.599 --> 00:30:03.940
just come into my mind? You know, in Love Actually,
00:30:04.079 --> 00:30:07.619
the film, where the stepfather has the little
00:30:07.619 --> 00:30:09.220
boy and, you know, they're going through this
00:30:09.220 --> 00:30:13.099
really deep grief. And the little boy is, you
00:30:13.099 --> 00:30:15.759
know, very sad. And, of course, Liam Neeson thinks
00:30:15.759 --> 00:30:17.500
immediately it's because his mother's died and
00:30:17.500 --> 00:30:19.319
actually it's because he's fallen in love. And
00:30:19.319 --> 00:30:22.119
I think, you know, that similarity of actually
00:30:22.119 --> 00:30:25.440
not thinking that the child's... if they're angry
00:30:25.440 --> 00:30:27.460
or cross or whatever, is about the separation.
00:30:27.779 --> 00:30:29.299
You know, they're dealing with everything else
00:30:29.299 --> 00:30:31.680
that's going on in school as well. Yeah, yeah.
00:30:32.059 --> 00:30:34.799
And just making sure that we remember that they're
00:30:34.799 --> 00:30:37.579
having their normal life. And the one constant
00:30:37.579 --> 00:30:42.579
is potentially school life in their world, which
00:30:42.579 --> 00:30:44.980
is changing every other way. Actually, school
00:30:44.980 --> 00:30:48.480
can provide real stability for them during that
00:30:48.480 --> 00:30:50.339
time when everything else in their life is changing.
00:30:50.440 --> 00:30:52.940
Yeah, we see that over and over again. where
00:30:52.940 --> 00:30:56.400
children just want that space. Sometimes they
00:30:56.400 --> 00:30:58.559
even say it. They'll just doubt it. I really
00:30:58.559 --> 00:31:00.660
don't want to talk about home. I just want to
00:31:00.660 --> 00:31:03.059
think about school. And that's completely fine.
00:31:03.400 --> 00:31:05.220
And obviously we as a school have to monitor
00:31:05.220 --> 00:31:07.359
that because we don't want them shutting down
00:31:07.359 --> 00:31:09.440
numerous feelings because that obviously long
00:31:09.440 --> 00:31:13.359
-term isn't healthy. But it's effectively providing
00:31:13.359 --> 00:31:16.819
them adults and spaces they can go to and have
00:31:16.819 --> 00:31:21.299
autonomy over rather than... feeling like you've
00:31:21.299 --> 00:31:23.400
got to sit in this place at this time and talk
00:31:23.400 --> 00:31:26.720
at this point. So, you know, giving that flexibility
00:31:26.720 --> 00:31:28.859
as a school and make sure you're building positive
00:31:28.859 --> 00:31:32.460
relationships outside of the need just to talk
00:31:32.460 --> 00:31:36.779
about home. Yeah. I guess the other, the next
00:31:36.779 --> 00:31:38.779
step with any kind of divorce or separation is
00:31:38.779 --> 00:31:42.099
the introduction of a new partner. And Tara,
00:31:42.279 --> 00:31:45.519
how can you manage that safely and sensibly with
00:31:45.519 --> 00:31:52.579
children? Well, I suppose where possible, and
00:31:52.579 --> 00:31:55.319
again, this might not always be possible, but,
00:31:55.420 --> 00:31:59.079
you know, if we're able to have some sort of
00:31:59.079 --> 00:32:01.359
positive communication with our ex -partner,
00:32:01.400 --> 00:32:06.519
then, you know, I think it would be really important
00:32:06.519 --> 00:32:08.839
to try and let them know that this is going to
00:32:08.839 --> 00:32:13.099
happen. So that there is some awareness that,
00:32:13.099 --> 00:32:15.559
you know, that this is... Because even though
00:32:15.559 --> 00:32:18.599
there's potential for a blending happening in
00:32:18.599 --> 00:32:20.660
one part, that is going to impact the other.
00:32:21.400 --> 00:32:27.200
And so any opportunities to reduce flare -up
00:32:27.200 --> 00:32:29.819
or surprise in the other household, I think,
00:32:29.819 --> 00:32:33.579
is really beneficial. Because as we've come back
00:32:33.579 --> 00:32:37.440
to, if parents are feeling like they've got the
00:32:37.440 --> 00:32:40.019
hang of this, then they're going to be eliciting
00:32:40.019 --> 00:32:44.539
that to the children. I think with regards to
00:32:44.539 --> 00:32:48.400
the introduction of a new partner, again, it
00:32:48.400 --> 00:32:50.359
very much depends on the age and stage of the
00:32:50.359 --> 00:32:56.640
child. We're thinking then about, you know, how
00:32:56.640 --> 00:32:59.940
soon that this might be happening. I mean, I
00:32:59.940 --> 00:33:03.440
can find I'm sort of fidgeting over my words
00:33:03.440 --> 00:33:06.019
here because I'm back to context, you know, context
00:33:06.019 --> 00:33:10.920
of everything. But so, you know, again, dependent
00:33:10.920 --> 00:33:13.859
on the age and stage of the child, Perhaps do
00:33:13.859 --> 00:33:16.559
it in a way where they have the opportunity to
00:33:16.559 --> 00:33:19.920
have a momentary meeting with an adult who means
00:33:19.920 --> 00:33:22.500
something to their new parent. Yeah. And that
00:33:22.500 --> 00:33:26.579
conversations, you know, around, well, even new
00:33:26.579 --> 00:33:29.380
partner or, you know, girlfriend or boyfriend
00:33:29.380 --> 00:33:34.519
or sort of placing this person as being really
00:33:34.519 --> 00:33:38.279
important to the adult in their world. I would
00:33:38.279 --> 00:33:40.480
probably step away from and try and avoid at
00:33:40.480 --> 00:33:43.460
that point. It's one of the things which can
00:33:43.460 --> 00:33:48.599
happen for some children when they're experiencing
00:33:48.599 --> 00:33:53.319
divorce or their parents are separated. It's
00:33:53.319 --> 00:33:56.500
actually a feeling of abandonment or being usurped.
00:33:56.619 --> 00:33:59.940
Like, what do I now mean to the adults in my
00:33:59.940 --> 00:34:03.380
world? So we need to hold on to that, particularly
00:34:03.380 --> 00:34:07.140
if the new partner has children themselves. So
00:34:07.140 --> 00:34:10.239
I would be saying that it would be slow, it would
00:34:10.239 --> 00:34:15.880
be gradual, and it wouldn't be however delighted
00:34:15.880 --> 00:34:22.440
and happy the adult is to sort of mediate that
00:34:22.440 --> 00:34:25.019
a little bit in terms of what this new adult
00:34:25.019 --> 00:34:28.570
means for them and their family. Yeah, absolutely.
00:34:29.289 --> 00:34:32.389
MK, what's your thinking on this? Well, I completely
00:34:32.389 --> 00:34:35.730
agree. I just think it's so hard, isn't it? So
00:34:35.730 --> 00:34:38.130
hard as an adult when you've gone through perhaps
00:34:38.130 --> 00:34:40.429
the trauma of the separation and then you've
00:34:40.429 --> 00:34:42.769
started to find something new that's really exciting
00:34:42.769 --> 00:34:46.539
and yet you've got to... almost lived too long.
00:34:46.679 --> 00:34:49.699
You want to engage in that, but with your children,
00:34:49.820 --> 00:34:53.099
you do need to protect them because you don't
00:34:53.099 --> 00:34:55.099
actually know where that's going to go, particularly
00:34:55.099 --> 00:34:57.380
in the early stages. And the last thing your
00:34:57.380 --> 00:35:01.739
child needs is perhaps to build a relationship
00:35:01.739 --> 00:35:04.880
with someone and then them disappear. And I think
00:35:04.880 --> 00:35:09.239
as Tara says, that children can feel very jealous
00:35:09.239 --> 00:35:15.500
of the other partner. And so I think... Yeah,
00:35:15.539 --> 00:35:18.039
it's like anything coming back to being containing,
00:35:18.219 --> 00:35:22.519
you know, not oversharing your emotions, playing
00:35:22.519 --> 00:35:26.400
it down, but being stable with that play down.
00:35:26.460 --> 00:35:28.679
You obviously don't want to be flippant. And
00:35:28.679 --> 00:35:31.699
I think as the other parent who maybe hasn't
00:35:31.699 --> 00:35:35.599
found someone but has discovered your ex -partner
00:35:35.599 --> 00:35:39.659
has, again, you have so much containing of your
00:35:39.659 --> 00:35:42.039
emotions because you'll be curious. And of course,
00:35:42.039 --> 00:35:43.860
the one person who will know more than you is
00:35:43.860 --> 00:35:46.380
your child. Because they're likely to be living
00:35:46.380 --> 00:35:49.679
on and off with the other person. So, you know,
00:35:49.679 --> 00:35:51.940
so tempting. And we do hear this happening, you
00:35:51.940 --> 00:35:55.800
know. Oh, how was X today? You know, did you
00:35:55.800 --> 00:35:58.780
meet? And then children immediately know what's
00:35:58.780 --> 00:36:00.820
going on. And they know what's happening. So
00:36:00.820 --> 00:36:03.760
it's, again, containing your emotions and trying
00:36:03.760 --> 00:36:07.280
to step back from big feelings. Yeah. And I also
00:36:07.280 --> 00:36:09.320
think it's making sure that that one to one time
00:36:09.320 --> 00:36:11.699
happens with the child, because the one thing
00:36:11.699 --> 00:36:15.800
that they always sort of express is, oh, but
00:36:15.800 --> 00:36:17.719
I never get time with you on your own anymore.
00:36:18.480 --> 00:36:21.380
And so it's ensuring that there is that ring
00:36:21.380 --> 00:36:24.420
fence time that that child with the perhaps shortened
00:36:24.420 --> 00:36:26.000
period of time they're going to have with that
00:36:26.000 --> 00:36:29.250
parent. There is that one on one. And, you know,
00:36:29.289 --> 00:36:31.710
there is that phrase playing happy families.
00:36:31.929 --> 00:36:33.769
That's what you know, you don't want to jump
00:36:33.769 --> 00:36:36.949
straight in into into that trap. I mean, we've
00:36:36.949 --> 00:36:38.949
been talking a lot about, you know, what what
00:36:38.949 --> 00:36:42.690
we we should be doing. MK, just kind of giving
00:36:42.690 --> 00:36:45.230
some advice about what we've seen in schools
00:36:45.230 --> 00:36:47.889
and to you, Tara, in your practice when things
00:36:47.889 --> 00:36:51.019
go wrong. What has happened when things go wrong?
00:36:51.099 --> 00:36:53.360
What is it that we see that actually should be
00:36:53.360 --> 00:36:55.159
avoided? I mean, MK, I don't know whether you
00:36:55.159 --> 00:36:58.199
want to start on that one. I mean, what we usually
00:36:58.199 --> 00:37:01.260
see is a change of behaviour in the child. So
00:37:01.260 --> 00:37:05.699
the child, if things are going wrong at home,
00:37:05.840 --> 00:37:10.039
whether we know about it or not, the child will
00:37:10.039 --> 00:37:13.969
pick ways to communicate their feelings. And
00:37:13.969 --> 00:37:16.909
more often than not, that might be through a
00:37:16.909 --> 00:37:19.789
lack of care. They've maybe lost the motivation
00:37:19.789 --> 00:37:22.409
to care about certain things they used to care
00:37:22.409 --> 00:37:26.090
about. Perhaps their reluctance to build their
00:37:26.090 --> 00:37:28.570
own relationships with their peers for fear of
00:37:28.570 --> 00:37:34.449
disappointment. I think with things going wrong
00:37:34.449 --> 00:37:36.250
with our relationship with parents is parents
00:37:36.250 --> 00:37:39.800
can feel really judged. Whether rightly or wrongly,
00:37:39.900 --> 00:37:43.219
just maybe something that a member of staff said
00:37:43.219 --> 00:37:47.719
or didn't say makes them feel cross. And of course,
00:37:47.739 --> 00:37:50.179
as soon as you get elevated emotions involved
00:37:50.179 --> 00:37:53.559
with emailing and communication, it can make
00:37:53.559 --> 00:37:56.539
that dynamic very, very tricky, both for the
00:37:56.539 --> 00:37:59.320
parents and the school. So I think just remembering
00:37:59.320 --> 00:38:01.780
that the school are there to support. If you
00:38:01.780 --> 00:38:04.679
feel hurt by something the school has done, tell
00:38:04.679 --> 00:38:07.949
us. Tell the school, because actually we'd much
00:38:07.949 --> 00:38:10.510
rather know where maybe we said something that
00:38:10.510 --> 00:38:12.469
wasn't appropriate or we missed some communication.
00:38:12.530 --> 00:38:15.389
I think that's a big area, is where you can find
00:38:15.389 --> 00:38:18.130
you start emailing one parent about logistics
00:38:18.130 --> 00:38:21.510
or about some sort of information and you realise
00:38:21.510 --> 00:38:24.550
you've missed off the other parent. So do tell
00:38:24.550 --> 00:38:29.389
us. We're robust in being able to manage being
00:38:29.389 --> 00:38:34.730
told what's not OK. So I think when things start
00:38:34.730 --> 00:38:36.510
to go wrong for the child, it's around behaviours.
00:38:36.510 --> 00:38:38.889
And that's where we use, I think schools use
00:38:38.889 --> 00:38:43.429
their pastoral systems, the champion for the
00:38:43.429 --> 00:38:45.929
child in the school, maybe the tutor or the person
00:38:45.929 --> 00:38:49.369
overseeing the head of year to keep an eye out
00:38:49.369 --> 00:38:52.409
for those things. But also with communication
00:38:52.409 --> 00:38:56.510
with parents, I think it's just really important
00:38:56.510 --> 00:38:58.429
that the school remains open with the parents
00:38:58.429 --> 00:39:01.500
and the parents open with the children. Yeah,
00:39:01.500 --> 00:39:04.300
absolutely. And Tara, you know, what you see
00:39:04.300 --> 00:39:06.800
about when these things just don't go right and
00:39:06.800 --> 00:39:11.380
how it could be avoided? Well, I mean, I think
00:39:11.380 --> 00:39:14.019
that, you know, I think that, you know, as an
00:39:14.019 --> 00:39:17.260
adult, you know, as an adult, obviously I'm an
00:39:17.260 --> 00:39:19.599
adult, for myself, I mean, one of the things
00:39:19.599 --> 00:39:23.900
that I need to really hold on to is accepting
00:39:23.900 --> 00:39:28.099
that I have biases myself. And sometimes, you
00:39:28.099 --> 00:39:31.579
know, I will only really meet up with one parent
00:39:31.579 --> 00:39:34.159
because the other parent, you know, isn't the
00:39:34.159 --> 00:39:36.840
one that brings their child in to see me. And
00:39:36.840 --> 00:39:39.900
so I'm really only getting one side of the picture
00:39:39.900 --> 00:39:43.880
and as much as possible trying very, very hard
00:39:43.880 --> 00:39:46.900
to remind myself of that. If you don't, you know,
00:39:46.920 --> 00:39:50.039
if you're not hearing the other story, then that
00:39:50.039 --> 00:39:52.670
can be really difficult. And I can imagine. That
00:39:52.670 --> 00:39:54.710
might also be the same for schools as much as
00:39:54.710 --> 00:39:58.210
possible because we are humans after all. And
00:39:58.210 --> 00:40:02.130
so I think that's something that we as professionals
00:40:02.130 --> 00:40:05.329
need to really, really hold on to. And from what
00:40:05.329 --> 00:40:07.869
you're saying, that's something which you very
00:40:07.869 --> 00:40:11.110
much do. I mean, I think then as part of that,
00:40:11.170 --> 00:40:13.650
what we see is that that then feeds into the
00:40:13.650 --> 00:40:16.710
child system. So it's what you were talking about
00:40:16.710 --> 00:40:20.829
earlier, Mary -Kate. It's very dangerous to get
00:40:20.829 --> 00:40:24.489
into the situation of parental alienation whereby
00:40:24.489 --> 00:40:28.050
the child has taken on the negative perception
00:40:28.050 --> 00:40:33.730
of the other parent. And that becomes very, very
00:40:33.730 --> 00:40:38.869
hard because that can result in the child feeling
00:40:38.869 --> 00:40:41.969
very guilty about it. But as you said as well,
00:40:41.989 --> 00:40:45.570
we've got this situation of loyalty, wanting
00:40:45.570 --> 00:40:48.929
to be loyal. And so you could end up with a child
00:40:48.929 --> 00:40:51.650
who's kind of completely split and, you know,
00:40:51.670 --> 00:40:55.449
has one, almost separates themselves completely
00:40:55.449 --> 00:40:58.590
and doesn't have a joint experience of two parents
00:40:58.590 --> 00:41:01.190
and behaves one way with one parent and one way
00:41:01.190 --> 00:41:04.130
with another. And that's a lot for a little,
00:41:04.289 --> 00:41:08.050
well, any person actually to be able to manage
00:41:08.050 --> 00:41:12.500
is to kind of... Be the secret keeper, I suppose,
00:41:12.760 --> 00:41:15.199
of their parents' individual lives. Not even
00:41:15.199 --> 00:41:19.159
if they're asked to keep secrets, but there can
00:41:19.159 --> 00:41:21.619
be this inference of, you know, don't tell daddy
00:41:21.619 --> 00:41:23.739
about what we do at home or don't tell mommy
00:41:23.739 --> 00:41:29.340
about this. And that is that that becomes a big,
00:41:29.440 --> 00:41:33.820
big, big, big burden for children. And the other
00:41:33.820 --> 00:41:38.010
thing that I often see or hear. when I meet with
00:41:38.010 --> 00:41:40.449
parents is that children can, there can be a
00:41:40.449 --> 00:41:43.670
lot of regression that happens, regressive behaviors
00:41:43.670 --> 00:41:47.210
that become very confusing for parents. I mean,
00:41:47.230 --> 00:41:50.550
I don't necessarily just mean, although it can
00:41:50.550 --> 00:41:53.090
happen, things like bedwetting and, you know,
00:41:53.110 --> 00:41:55.690
and those sorts of things where there is natural
00:41:55.690 --> 00:41:59.150
sort of physiological. But also we could be going
00:41:59.150 --> 00:42:01.929
back to sort of earlier tantruming or sibling
00:42:01.929 --> 00:42:06.760
behaviors or, you know. stage which one would
00:42:06.760 --> 00:42:09.420
perceive, you know, your younger brother doesn't
00:42:09.420 --> 00:42:11.940
even do that. You know, come on. And just being
00:42:11.940 --> 00:42:16.539
alert to, you know, Mary Kate, as you said, this
00:42:16.539 --> 00:42:19.960
is a message of actually I'm regressing to a
00:42:19.960 --> 00:42:24.059
point where I need your attention because I don't
00:42:24.059 --> 00:42:27.659
know how else to tell you that I'm in real trouble
00:42:27.659 --> 00:42:31.460
here. And so I actually, I might be nine, but
00:42:31.460 --> 00:42:35.389
I want to climb on your lap or, you know. And
00:42:35.389 --> 00:42:38.610
so just being aware of those and moving with
00:42:38.610 --> 00:42:41.289
the child's regression. So allowing that child
00:42:41.289 --> 00:42:44.389
to have that younger experience with you so they
00:42:44.389 --> 00:42:47.849
can sort of almost top themselves up and sort
00:42:47.849 --> 00:42:51.969
of grow back up again. That's so, honestly, Tara,
00:42:52.050 --> 00:42:54.230
that's so interesting. It also brought to my
00:42:54.230 --> 00:42:56.929
thinking about being very careful with the eldest
00:42:56.929 --> 00:43:00.429
child, because I think what can happen is sometimes
00:43:00.429 --> 00:43:02.210
the eldest child suddenly feels that they've
00:43:02.210 --> 00:43:05.730
got responsibility for their siblings and, you
00:43:05.730 --> 00:43:08.289
know, taking on greater responsibilities that
00:43:08.289 --> 00:43:10.389
really they're not ready for. And it's making
00:43:10.389 --> 00:43:12.590
sure that that eldest child really does feel
00:43:12.590 --> 00:43:15.150
heard and that they can still be a child. They're
00:43:15.150 --> 00:43:17.070
not having to be responsible for everybody remembering
00:43:17.070 --> 00:43:19.130
things, because I think there is a tendency.
00:43:19.150 --> 00:43:21.730
tendency sometimes with families to look to give
00:43:21.730 --> 00:43:23.570
that responsibility to the child, or sometimes
00:43:23.570 --> 00:43:26.469
the child will take that on themselves. It's
00:43:26.469 --> 00:43:28.530
something just to be aware of. Yeah. And I think
00:43:28.530 --> 00:43:30.510
just going back to that whole thing of when things
00:43:30.510 --> 00:43:35.369
go wrong, possibly reasons for it, I think not
00:43:35.369 --> 00:43:39.159
understanding sometimes. the reason for the divorce.
00:43:39.219 --> 00:43:41.400
So sometimes it is just people have grown apart
00:43:41.400 --> 00:43:46.239
and they decide that they don't want to be together.
00:43:46.480 --> 00:43:49.739
But other times, as Tara alluded to, there can
00:43:49.739 --> 00:43:54.119
be addiction involved or another reason. And
00:43:54.119 --> 00:43:57.800
actually, I know we have to be highly sensitive
00:43:57.800 --> 00:44:00.400
in how we receive information, how we try and
00:44:00.400 --> 00:44:02.360
get information from parents, but the more we
00:44:02.360 --> 00:44:04.980
can understand about a situation as a school,
00:44:05.760 --> 00:44:07.559
the more we can support the child appropriately.
00:44:08.300 --> 00:44:11.500
Because actually it can really go wrong if a
00:44:11.500 --> 00:44:14.420
child is having to hold, as you say, lots of
00:44:14.420 --> 00:44:18.659
secrets and feels that responsibility and burden.
00:44:19.019 --> 00:44:21.699
And, you know, some of the worst case scenarios
00:44:21.699 --> 00:44:24.139
is that that forms into an element of the child
00:44:24.139 --> 00:44:26.219
then needing to control other areas of their
00:44:26.219 --> 00:44:28.780
life. And that's where we see mental health issues
00:44:28.780 --> 00:44:32.489
coming in, which of course, you know... More
00:44:32.489 --> 00:44:34.489
often than not, we see supported and the child
00:44:34.489 --> 00:44:36.730
comes through it. But, you know, we could have
00:44:36.730 --> 00:44:41.670
avoided that with open communication and enough
00:44:41.670 --> 00:44:46.869
nuggets as a school to support them. Yeah, I
00:44:46.869 --> 00:44:49.550
think just to add to that, I think that's absolutely
00:44:49.550 --> 00:44:53.630
spot on. The other thing which is curious, which
00:44:53.630 --> 00:44:57.449
I have experienced a number of times over the
00:44:57.449 --> 00:45:00.309
course of my work is actually... The impact on
00:45:00.309 --> 00:45:04.610
children whose parents separate or divorce, and
00:45:04.610 --> 00:45:07.789
they're highly amicable. There has been no rupture
00:45:07.789 --> 00:45:10.769
in the home, right? There has been no conflict.
00:45:11.929 --> 00:45:15.130
Parents have just fallen out of love with each
00:45:15.130 --> 00:45:16.909
other, but they're still great friends and they
00:45:16.909 --> 00:45:21.510
still hang out. And so there is this perception
00:45:21.510 --> 00:45:23.750
that because there hasn't been big conflict,
00:45:24.150 --> 00:45:28.400
the children will be fine. There isn't so much
00:45:28.400 --> 00:45:31.719
attention perhaps paid to the idea that, you
00:45:31.719 --> 00:45:34.679
know, yeah, but the whole world has changed.
00:45:34.739 --> 00:45:37.820
And actually trying, you know, the younger you
00:45:37.820 --> 00:45:41.719
are, trying to understand why my parents no longer
00:45:41.719 --> 00:45:43.500
want to sleep in the same room and be in the
00:45:43.500 --> 00:45:46.340
same house, but they want to hang out, you know,
00:45:46.340 --> 00:45:50.239
hang out in the day and they have great fun together
00:45:50.239 --> 00:45:53.559
and they still come over for supper. It's a really
00:45:53.559 --> 00:45:56.400
complex one. And I just wanted to add that in
00:45:56.400 --> 00:45:59.280
because I think perhaps that's something we don't
00:45:59.280 --> 00:46:02.880
pay attention to. I think that's so that's really,
00:46:02.960 --> 00:46:05.360
really important because, again, I see families
00:46:05.360 --> 00:46:07.039
who perhaps think, well, you know, we get on
00:46:07.039 --> 00:46:09.639
well, so let's have Christmas together. And that's
00:46:09.639 --> 00:46:13.119
really confusing for children because actually,
00:46:13.300 --> 00:46:16.599
you know, it's a bit weird. And seeing their
00:46:16.599 --> 00:46:18.280
parents and, you know, you do get the situation
00:46:18.280 --> 00:46:20.599
where sometimes those parents might even be flirtatious
00:46:20.599 --> 00:46:23.730
with one another. And that's very, the messaging
00:46:23.730 --> 00:46:26.849
for children is really tricky. So I think you're
00:46:26.849 --> 00:46:28.389
absolutely right. It's something that we don't
00:46:28.389 --> 00:46:30.590
talk a lot about, but we do see an increase in
00:46:30.590 --> 00:46:35.570
that happening. And again, I think that's open
00:46:35.570 --> 00:46:38.750
communication with the children about how relationships
00:46:38.750 --> 00:46:42.309
work. And actually not all relationships are
00:46:42.309 --> 00:46:44.369
romantic relationships and you can have a deep
00:46:44.369 --> 00:46:48.329
friendship with somebody without it being. romantically
00:46:48.329 --> 00:46:51.090
involved and what marriage is and so on. But
00:46:51.090 --> 00:46:53.650
I think you're absolutely right. Tara, there's
00:46:53.650 --> 00:46:55.309
a book for you to write. How do you manage that
00:46:55.309 --> 00:46:59.730
complexity of relationships? Oh, my goodness.
00:46:59.889 --> 00:47:02.150
I think the other thing, just when we're talking
00:47:02.150 --> 00:47:05.010
about how we support as a school, I think...
00:47:05.579 --> 00:47:08.000
you know, actually articulating to a third party
00:47:08.000 --> 00:47:10.559
that you are separating is really difficult.
00:47:10.760 --> 00:47:12.679
And I would encourage any parent who is thinking,
00:47:12.780 --> 00:47:15.139
you know, gosh, I need to tell the school, you
00:47:15.139 --> 00:47:16.940
know, you can do it in an email. Of course you
00:47:16.940 --> 00:47:19.139
can do that. But to realise that as schools.
00:47:19.789 --> 00:47:21.909
We can help. And this is something that we see
00:47:21.909 --> 00:47:24.269
time and time again. And we are there to support.
00:47:24.389 --> 00:47:26.889
We're not there to judge. There's no shame involved
00:47:26.889 --> 00:47:29.690
in any of this, which obviously I can appreciate
00:47:29.690 --> 00:47:31.949
it. It might feel like that for some parents,
00:47:32.050 --> 00:47:34.610
but that would be my one bit of advice to any
00:47:34.610 --> 00:47:37.190
parent is really do just please be open and don't
00:47:37.190 --> 00:47:40.050
think there's going to be any judgment or shame
00:47:40.050 --> 00:47:43.030
attached to it. As we're sort of drawing this
00:47:43.030 --> 00:47:45.329
conversation to a close, I think about what are
00:47:45.329 --> 00:47:49.980
those practical hopefully tips that we can give
00:47:49.980 --> 00:47:52.519
parents who are either thinking about separation
00:47:52.519 --> 00:47:56.239
or navigating them. What would be our, I don't
00:47:56.239 --> 00:47:58.460
want to give too many, but your top tip Tara,
00:47:58.519 --> 00:48:00.800
for anybody who is navigating any kind of separation
00:48:00.800 --> 00:48:03.179
and divorce, this is obviously for parents and
00:48:03.179 --> 00:48:05.739
MK for you too. And then I'll have a think about
00:48:05.739 --> 00:48:14.340
my two penneth. I mean, I think if the top, the
00:48:14.340 --> 00:48:19.730
top tip is to think about, I'm going to use the
00:48:19.730 --> 00:48:21.809
word that Mary -Kate has used throughout this,
00:48:21.929 --> 00:48:26.670
is to be containing and to be consistent. And
00:48:26.670 --> 00:48:31.510
if you can do that together with your partner
00:48:31.510 --> 00:48:35.949
or your ex -partner, so there is no... We want
00:48:35.949 --> 00:48:38.510
to basically remove the unknowns for these children,
00:48:38.610 --> 00:48:41.900
remove the unknowns, make... everything as known
00:48:41.900 --> 00:48:44.739
as possible so they don't have to fill in the
00:48:44.739 --> 00:48:47.440
gaps. They don't have to create story. And as
00:48:47.440 --> 00:48:50.440
you said, that leads to, you know, where are
00:48:50.440 --> 00:48:52.760
you sleeping? On what days am I in which house?
00:48:54.159 --> 00:48:58.679
So just make everything as, you know, take those
00:48:58.679 --> 00:49:02.420
unknowns away and try and make sure that whichever
00:49:02.420 --> 00:49:04.920
story they're hearing, there is consistency in
00:49:04.920 --> 00:49:09.610
that story so that they can start to... to integrate
00:49:09.610 --> 00:49:11.889
and understand what's happening in their world.
00:49:12.429 --> 00:49:15.489
Yeah, absolutely. MK, what about you? I think
00:49:15.489 --> 00:49:18.750
as the adults, it's keeping our emotions in check
00:49:18.750 --> 00:49:22.570
around our children. So I think to be able to
00:49:22.570 --> 00:49:24.949
do that, you've got to get yourself some support.
00:49:25.250 --> 00:49:28.019
And I don't mean you need to... have formal support,
00:49:28.239 --> 00:49:30.219
but have you got an outlet? Have you got a great
00:49:30.219 --> 00:49:32.940
friend who will listen, who isn't biased, maybe
00:49:32.940 --> 00:49:35.519
who doesn't take one side, who you can just offload
00:49:35.519 --> 00:49:38.079
to, which allows that space so that when you're
00:49:38.079 --> 00:49:39.880
speaking to a child about the more difficult
00:49:39.880 --> 00:49:42.460
issues or answering their questions, you are
00:49:42.460 --> 00:49:44.800
not emotionally offloading onto your children.
00:49:45.099 --> 00:49:48.420
I think that's really key. And then secondly,
00:49:48.559 --> 00:49:51.639
just... making your child feel heard in those
00:49:51.639 --> 00:49:54.000
little things. So obviously you've done, as Tara
00:49:54.000 --> 00:49:56.519
says, the big planning and the big telling them,
00:49:56.579 --> 00:50:00.130
but then day to day, are you hearing them? around
00:50:00.130 --> 00:50:02.530
the little things they might need through all
00:50:02.530 --> 00:50:05.510
this change. And remembering the child is coming
00:50:05.510 --> 00:50:07.710
from a dialogue in the day. We haven't talked
00:50:07.710 --> 00:50:10.150
about how actually the child's friends can ask
00:50:10.150 --> 00:50:12.550
them a lot of questions. The child might have
00:50:12.550 --> 00:50:14.570
offloaded a lot of feelings to their friends.
00:50:14.730 --> 00:50:16.670
And then that child might come with a lot of
00:50:16.670 --> 00:50:18.789
those questions to the parent. And that might
00:50:18.789 --> 00:50:24.130
feel quite surprising and sort of knock you off
00:50:24.130 --> 00:50:27.929
guard. And so just being ready, emotions in check.
00:50:28.639 --> 00:50:32.460
allowing your child to feel heard yeah and i
00:50:32.460 --> 00:50:34.780
would add to that the importance of time the
00:50:34.780 --> 00:50:36.760
importance of time to you don't have to rush
00:50:36.760 --> 00:50:40.099
at these things and any conversation that you
00:50:40.099 --> 00:50:42.420
have to have with your child at any stage making
00:50:42.420 --> 00:50:46.019
sure that there there isn't a a cut off time
00:50:46.019 --> 00:50:49.420
of that conversation um and going for a walk
00:50:49.420 --> 00:50:52.420
is always an amazing opportunity to to have a
00:50:52.420 --> 00:50:55.440
have a conversation and just giving them time
00:50:55.440 --> 00:50:58.360
and space and coming back to conversations as
00:50:58.360 --> 00:51:01.460
well so they don't think, oh, well, you know,
00:51:01.480 --> 00:51:02.639
we've talked about that, we're never going to
00:51:02.639 --> 00:51:05.519
talk about that again. It's, you know, revisiting
00:51:05.519 --> 00:51:07.260
and saying, well, how are you feeling about that
00:51:07.260 --> 00:51:10.159
now? How are you feeling about, you know, spending,
00:51:10.400 --> 00:51:13.619
going on holiday with, you know, daddy or mummy
00:51:13.619 --> 00:51:15.860
or whatever? It's just that real importance of
00:51:15.860 --> 00:51:19.219
giving children time and listening to them. Very
00:51:19.219 --> 00:51:21.860
much so. So we've talked a lot about containment
00:51:21.860 --> 00:51:25.320
and as the adult in these conversations, what
00:51:25.320 --> 00:51:28.019
does that look like? Are there any advice we
00:51:28.019 --> 00:51:30.960
can help people with about how to be contained?
00:51:31.880 --> 00:51:35.159
Tara, looking at you as they might be able to
00:51:35.159 --> 00:51:37.719
help us with this. Well, I think the first thing
00:51:37.719 --> 00:51:40.639
to say is that this isn't about being calm. No
00:51:40.639 --> 00:51:42.940
one is expecting anyone to be calm when they're
00:51:42.940 --> 00:51:46.380
going through separation or divorce. It's about
00:51:46.380 --> 00:51:48.980
having the capacity to feel everything that you're
00:51:48.980 --> 00:51:53.219
feeling and come back to yourself. So we're really
00:51:53.219 --> 00:51:58.000
talking about self -regulation here. And I think
00:51:58.000 --> 00:51:59.920
that, you know, if we're thinking about this
00:51:59.920 --> 00:52:03.420
from the, you know, from the lens of parents
00:52:03.420 --> 00:52:06.400
looking after themselves, their children need
00:52:06.400 --> 00:52:11.420
to see their pain. You know, containment is also
00:52:11.420 --> 00:52:13.739
not pretending that you're fine with everything,
00:52:13.860 --> 00:52:16.280
because that is also a really confusing message
00:52:16.280 --> 00:52:20.099
to children. And children learn how to manage
00:52:20.099 --> 00:52:24.199
their emotions from experiencing how their adults
00:52:24.199 --> 00:52:28.780
have managed theirs. So it's, you know, and it
00:52:28.780 --> 00:52:30.800
sounds like an awful lot of pressure to put on
00:52:30.800 --> 00:52:33.320
people. But actually, I think this is more about
00:52:33.320 --> 00:52:35.480
permission giving, that containment does not
00:52:35.480 --> 00:52:39.739
mean. Being calm, being fine, never getting upset,
00:52:39.880 --> 00:52:44.159
never being irritated or angry. But it's about
00:52:44.159 --> 00:52:46.400
coming back, having that experience and then
00:52:46.400 --> 00:52:48.679
coming back to oneself. And I suppose it's the
00:52:48.679 --> 00:52:51.900
old adage of, you know, put the crying baby down.
00:52:52.519 --> 00:52:55.840
You know, if something is overwhelming or too
00:52:55.840 --> 00:52:59.760
much or you feel feelings when you're with your
00:52:59.760 --> 00:53:03.260
children to an extent where, you know, it's impacting
00:53:03.260 --> 00:53:07.429
on how you are relating to them. then put the
00:53:07.429 --> 00:53:10.429
baby down, take them home, you know, give yourself
00:53:10.429 --> 00:53:14.829
time and space. So I think over and above, you
00:53:14.829 --> 00:53:17.449
know, recognising if you need support, whether,
00:53:17.650 --> 00:53:21.090
you know, as Mary -Kate has said, that is support
00:53:21.090 --> 00:53:23.809
through friendship or through an activity or
00:53:23.809 --> 00:53:26.210
walking or nature or something a bit more, you
00:53:26.210 --> 00:53:28.289
know, whether you need some professional support.
00:53:29.150 --> 00:53:31.690
But the important thing is that, you know, you
00:53:31.690 --> 00:53:33.750
will be feeling feelings and your children need
00:53:33.750 --> 00:53:36.920
to see you feeling them. They just need to experience,
00:53:37.360 --> 00:53:42.860
gosh, mommy, daddy was really upset and now they're
00:53:42.860 --> 00:53:48.159
okay. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's gone. Well, I
00:53:48.159 --> 00:53:49.719
was just going to say it's so true and I think
00:53:49.719 --> 00:53:52.139
it's really empowering for the child and the
00:53:52.139 --> 00:53:55.059
way they're going to navigate their own ups and
00:53:55.059 --> 00:53:58.880
downs in life is to witness their parents thinking
00:53:58.880 --> 00:54:02.179
through carefully how to manage themselves. And,
00:54:02.199 --> 00:54:06.139
you know, it's okay to not be okay. It's okay
00:54:06.139 --> 00:54:10.380
to feel sad and be able to articulate that with
00:54:10.380 --> 00:54:13.679
your child. It's just what you say with it. We
00:54:13.679 --> 00:54:17.039
don't want to add to it a blame to someone else,
00:54:17.119 --> 00:54:20.739
but it's okay to voice that we're not okay and
00:54:20.739 --> 00:54:24.019
that that's okay. And then thinking to yourself,
00:54:24.159 --> 00:54:28.030
what do I do for myself? I think sometimes it
00:54:28.030 --> 00:54:30.090
can feel a real treadmill when you're going through
00:54:30.090 --> 00:54:32.670
a lot of, you know, you're burdened by emotions
00:54:32.670 --> 00:54:35.349
and change and having, you know, your head is
00:54:35.349 --> 00:54:37.090
full of everything you've got to think through.
00:54:38.389 --> 00:54:41.429
And I think, you know, we can lose sight of what
00:54:41.429 --> 00:54:45.789
we need. So ask yourself what... What do I find
00:54:45.789 --> 00:54:48.429
really helpful in just giving me space? Is it
00:54:48.429 --> 00:54:50.750
a walk? Is it a coffee with a friend? Is it a
00:54:50.750 --> 00:54:53.710
game of tennis? You know, is it just watching
00:54:53.710 --> 00:54:57.090
TV and switching off? It's thinking of what helps
00:54:57.090 --> 00:55:00.480
you. And I think the important thing in that
00:55:00.480 --> 00:55:05.159
change of, you know, your children spending time
00:55:05.159 --> 00:55:09.000
away from you is a very odd feeling for a parent
00:55:09.000 --> 00:55:11.139
who's kind of being totally absorbed. And it's
00:55:11.139 --> 00:55:13.519
making sure that you plan that time and you're
00:55:13.519 --> 00:55:15.360
not sitting there dwelling. What is my child
00:55:15.360 --> 00:55:18.400
doing with, you know, the other partner? And
00:55:18.400 --> 00:55:20.710
that's the point at which you've got to. to really
00:55:20.710 --> 00:55:23.989
construct what self -care looks like, because
00:55:23.989 --> 00:55:26.409
that's your time to fill up and think about things
00:55:26.409 --> 00:55:28.869
and reflect on and get yourself into a position
00:55:28.869 --> 00:55:31.550
of regulated and actually talk to the child,
00:55:31.650 --> 00:55:33.309
you know, when they come back and saying, do
00:55:33.309 --> 00:55:34.949
you know, mummy was really sad last week, but,
00:55:34.969 --> 00:55:36.849
you know, I spent a bit of time thinking, you
00:55:36.849 --> 00:55:39.309
know, so that they can also understand the pathway
00:55:39.309 --> 00:55:43.239
to. the recovery from those feelings or the regulation
00:55:43.239 --> 00:55:45.480
of those feelings as well. Sorry, Tara, you were
00:55:45.480 --> 00:55:47.440
going to say something. No, no, no. It was just
00:55:47.440 --> 00:55:50.260
feeding on from what Mary -Kate said that, you
00:55:50.260 --> 00:55:56.179
know, that self -care piece is absolutely essential
00:55:56.179 --> 00:55:58.679
for the well -being of your children. And I think
00:55:58.679 --> 00:56:01.820
this is something which we don't really think
00:56:01.820 --> 00:56:04.099
about as adults, is that actually, you know,
00:56:04.099 --> 00:56:07.409
essentially you are... For your child to be able
00:56:07.409 --> 00:56:10.110
to regulate their way through this process, they're
00:56:10.110 --> 00:56:12.369
going to need you. They're going to need your
00:56:12.369 --> 00:56:16.909
system. And, you know, children will be impacted
00:56:16.909 --> 00:56:19.409
by whether or not you yourself are regulated
00:56:19.409 --> 00:56:23.670
or not, and that will feed in. So if we look
00:56:23.670 --> 00:56:25.630
at it through that lens, because very often,
00:56:25.869 --> 00:56:27.869
you know, understandably, parents are sort of
00:56:27.869 --> 00:56:29.809
so focused on making sure that their children
00:56:29.809 --> 00:56:31.909
are okay that they forget about themselves and
00:56:31.909 --> 00:56:34.579
their story. And actually, most of the time,
00:56:34.599 --> 00:56:39.119
children are OK if their parents are OK. That's
00:56:39.119 --> 00:56:41.539
so true. That's so true. Tara, what a wonderful
00:56:41.539 --> 00:56:44.219
moment to draw this conversation to a close.
00:56:44.260 --> 00:56:46.699
Now, before you go, something I ask all of my
00:56:46.699 --> 00:56:49.000
guests on the podcast is about the people who
00:56:49.000 --> 00:56:51.659
are inspirational in their lives. And I think
00:56:51.659 --> 00:56:54.980
as a result of this conversation, I wonder whether
00:56:54.980 --> 00:56:58.670
there was anybody. in your kind of upbringing,
00:56:58.710 --> 00:57:01.269
in your school life that was really impactful
00:57:01.269 --> 00:57:04.969
from a pastoral point of view? Who you felt listened
00:57:04.969 --> 00:57:09.550
to you or coached you or who was it for you?
00:57:10.989 --> 00:57:13.409
MK, you were kind of nodding there. Is there
00:57:13.409 --> 00:57:14.690
something you can think of? Yeah, I think it
00:57:14.690 --> 00:57:20.230
was, so my schools went from 11 to 16 and then
00:57:20.230 --> 00:57:22.989
finished and then I went to sixth form in another
00:57:22.989 --> 00:57:27.030
school. And it was both my housemistresses, actually.
00:57:27.070 --> 00:57:30.389
I didn't board straight away at school, but my
00:57:30.389 --> 00:57:32.929
first housemistress was also in the sports department
00:57:32.929 --> 00:57:36.570
and I loved sport. And she just became someone
00:57:36.570 --> 00:57:39.690
I could really talk to. I was very close with
00:57:39.690 --> 00:57:44.610
my parents, but, you know, I definitely, she
00:57:44.610 --> 00:57:47.670
was a role model to me in the way she talked
00:57:47.670 --> 00:57:50.909
and was open. And then my second housemistress,
00:57:50.909 --> 00:57:54.679
I think. her conduct and just her moral standing
00:57:54.679 --> 00:57:58.079
and the way she communicated and that door was
00:57:58.079 --> 00:58:03.159
open was really impactful for me. Yeah. What
00:58:03.159 --> 00:58:06.860
about you, Tara? I mean, that's quite a question.
00:58:07.300 --> 00:58:11.159
It's, yeah, it's a really lovely question. I
00:58:11.159 --> 00:58:14.389
mean... I was at boarding school and my parents
00:58:14.389 --> 00:58:17.409
were divorced. So it's quite a poignant question
00:58:17.409 --> 00:58:21.130
that way. And it was my drama teacher, Mrs. Jackson.
00:58:22.050 --> 00:58:31.670
And she was so important to me. She was just
00:58:31.670 --> 00:58:35.690
a safe place for me to go to. I don't even really
00:58:35.690 --> 00:58:38.409
remember talking about my family situation with
00:58:38.409 --> 00:58:43.039
her. I just knew that when I was with her, I
00:58:43.039 --> 00:58:48.699
was seen, I was regarded, I felt safe. I felt
00:58:48.699 --> 00:58:52.059
like I was home. She just, you know, she was
00:58:52.059 --> 00:58:56.619
interested in me. She was supportive of me. And
00:58:56.619 --> 00:59:00.530
yeah, she was definitely my person. Yeah. So
00:59:00.530 --> 00:59:02.630
that was that was a really lovely thing to remember.
00:59:02.809 --> 00:59:05.050
Thank you. Yeah. Well, not at all, because I
00:59:05.050 --> 00:59:06.809
think it's quite reassuring for parents to know
00:59:06.809 --> 00:59:08.610
that there are going to be other adults in their
00:59:08.610 --> 00:59:11.210
lives who they will feel safe with and they'll
00:59:11.210 --> 00:59:13.489
they'll seek them out. It won't be the person
00:59:13.489 --> 00:59:15.409
they're necessarily allocated to them to look
00:59:15.409 --> 00:59:17.789
after them. But, you know, just to be reassured
00:59:17.789 --> 00:59:20.789
that as parents that there will be people. adults
00:59:20.789 --> 00:59:22.429
that your children will seek out because they
00:59:22.429 --> 00:59:24.670
feel safe and listened to and heard and held.
00:59:25.269 --> 00:59:28.750
And, you know, if you've chosen the right school
00:59:28.750 --> 00:59:30.389
in the right environment, it will be those people
00:59:30.389 --> 00:59:32.010
who naturally your children will talk to and
00:59:32.010 --> 00:59:34.289
feel supported by. So thank you for sharing that.
00:59:34.409 --> 00:59:37.489
And thank you both for being so open. And I hope
00:59:37.489 --> 00:59:39.929
those people who listen to this will really have
00:59:39.929 --> 00:59:43.550
taken some advice from your wisdom. So thank
00:59:43.550 --> 00:59:47.510
you so much. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you
00:59:47.510 --> 00:59:51.050
for listening to today's Dilemma. If you'd like
00:59:51.050 --> 00:59:53.469
to hear more about what I get up to, please follow
00:59:53.469 --> 00:59:56.369
me on Instagram at Head & Heels. Or if you want
00:59:56.369 --> 00:59:58.590
to learn more about the Dragon School, our Instagram
00:59:58.590 --> 01:00:02.070
account is Dragonschooloxford. And if you've
01:00:02.070 --> 01:00:04.409
got any ideas or dilemmas you'd like us to discuss,
01:00:04.630 --> 01:00:08.730
please do email us at podcast at dragonschool
01:00:08.730 --> 01:00:11.170
.org. So until next time.