WEBVTT
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Welcome it, changemakers to the deck
show with Tim Flower and Tom mcgras.
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Let's get into it. Hello,
change makers, welcome to the deck show.
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I'm Tom mcgrat. It's a solo
episode from me today, not suggesting
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you stuck with me and my own
insights for our half hour or so together.
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have no fear, merely that I
am timuless and joint instead by two
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guests who are going to help us
to explore the technical side of the hybrid
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workplace. Both of them, the
better or worse, are Brits like me,
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but unlike me that both very well
regarded fort leaders in the whole realm
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of Vidi, desktop virtualization, desktop
as a service, DAS. And if
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I sound like I'm spearing out technical
terminology without a clear sense of the difference
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between the terms, it's because I
might just be. And that's one of
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the reasons that they're here. So
let's get to it, into them and
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welcome the first of our guests,
Spencer pits. He's a digital workspace chief
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technologist at vmwhere. Spencer, we're
delighted to have you with us. Welcome
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to the show. Well, thank
you, thanks for having me and Yeah,
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interesting. Some of those acronyms and
terminologies. You he were just spearing
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out, like you just said.
So yeah, if maybe we're get a
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chance on the second we can talk
about those. But yeah, thanks for
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having me on. You did recognize
them, right, I did. I
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didn't get them wildly wrong or anything. Well, I recognized them. It's
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a bit like that. And now
I'm showing my age. You know when
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I said that you're playing all the
right letters but in the on order.
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Yeah, how right, right,
right. Well, yeah, there's work
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to be done on my awareness.
He I'm glad you have its great to
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have you with a spencer from a
s show, not that I'm saying that
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I'm of that ilk, by the
way. I just remember the reruns,
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as you Americans Weds Day. But
Anna good. It will start by insulting
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your host. Is a good way
to begin. And there's welcome our other
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guest. Maybe he'll insult me as
well, my colleague and fellow next thing.
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Yeah, and former colleague and VM
wearer of Spencer, Andy Phil and
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he welcome to the deck show.
Great to have you with US too.
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Yeah, thank you. And Yeah, I'm used to Spencer. I was
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used. I was the host of
a vmwhere podcast and he would insort me
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all the time, as I can
still quite not quite true, but anyway,
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it's positive, fantastic. Okay,
guys, first things first, because
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we are going to explore the hybrid
workplace in general a little bit today,
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as well as all of the acronyms
and terms I miss used earlier. But
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I'd like to begin with a general
question. What have your return to office
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experience is being like in the course
of the last twelve months or so,
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in fact, that you always hear
these cliches about our it was so wonderful
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to see everybody in the flesh again, and we're I'm a little bored of
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hearing them, so I want to
start today with the bad side of going
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back to the office. So we
with you first of all, Andy,
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putting all of that sort of love
you dovey stuff to one side. What
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was the point where you fought?
Yeah, God, I remember the vist.
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Going to the office can be rubbish
sometimes, kind of. But what
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was it? Yeah, I got
a couple of all. For me it's
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public transport. So now that I
work at next thing, going into London
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and being on the trains and tubes, I think I did it once and
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the way committigate that was pretty quick. I went straight back to walking.
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The next thing. Office is about
a twenty five minute walk from Waterloo,
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so straight back on that. But
that's kind of the more less serious one.
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The more serious one was just everyone's
wearing masks and London is one of
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these cities is a bit like New
York, where, you know, no
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one looks at each other, no
one's got the time of day, everyone's
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in a rush, everyone's got so
where to be, no one makes eye
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contact and it's just that's exacerbated by
masks. Yeah, and it's very just
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felt very impersonal. Getting to where
you need to get to even more than
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the as a good up of the
idea. That that one for that's a
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good point. And everybody is like
super squeezed together as well, right,
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but in masks it's quite a lasers
and and anxiety levels are just ratched up
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a little bit as well. So
yeah, that that that that doesn't sound
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too great. Well, about you, Spencer. Have you? Have you
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been inter vm where's offices and had
any experiences which were less than pleasurable?
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Well, let's just country to belief
that I'd actually even gone back to an
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office without free time. So far, so I've done one speaking engagement.
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Well, I actually had to somehow
speak, rather than behind a screen and
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all the lovely paraphernalia I've acquired at
the last eighteen months. I actually have
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to stand that was weird. People
have legs apparenting, which is just trying
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people at work with actual you have
legs. Was was point number one,
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but it's for me. Getting up
on the train was actually quite nice in
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one weird way, so contrary to
what Andy was saying, because a lot
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of people still at home, actually
it felt like it wasn't so squeezed in
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on the tube EXCP. But maybe
that was just when I went back.
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But the worst experience, though,
I think is is that sort of some
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people are at home and some people
are in the office, and especially when
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you're doing a you know ten people
round a you know like a balldroom type
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with the the elder camera up the
top there, and then suddenly at the
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end of the meeting you forget that
somebody else was on the Corese. I
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think there's some man. You've been
slagging them off for a couple of minutes
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and then you hear this kind of
quiet cough into the into the that's it.
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John's on the call still, yeah, the only you still there.
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We're just going to log off now. You know, we knew that all
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along, fam we were just kidding
exactly. But, and seriously, though,
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I think that is a problem,
though, is that hybrid. It's
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all great. What everybody's in one
place. I think everybody made working at
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home work because we're all in the
same boat, right, so we're all
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on the screen and I think it's
been a leveler everyone in the office to
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a degree. And if you think
even way before the pandemic, it was
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almost a bit like, well,
we don't really care about you if you're
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on a call, unless you are
from a pleat different you know, geography,
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then you sort of said okay,
but if you were sort of in
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the same country and you didn't make
it to the office, it was almost
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like, well, we don't really
care about you because you're clearly not bothered
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because you didn't come to the office. There was almost like a bit of
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a two tier thing going on there, right. That's how it used to
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feel anyway, and I think you
know, over the pandemic that's got better.
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But I have to admit the quality
and how you sort of how you
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have to address multiple groups, so
the people in front of you as well
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as people in the call. I
found that particularly hard, and I being
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one of those people in the call
when I couldn't make it in because my
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kids had to self isolated my wife. Yeah, and and being on the
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other end, if you know what
I mean, I found that quite bad
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as well. But yes, but
other than the travel, I didn't think
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we was too bad. Great reflection
on some of the challenges of the hybrid
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work place there. And you got
any any reflections on hybrid per se?
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That differs from it? Well,
I think kind of in that I think
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of the most Highbrid Day was last
week went into the office, you know,
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and bumped into someone actually that used
to work at Vm or as well,
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totally by accidents, as like one
of those kind of yours here the
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watercooler moment. But that's where the
office really comes alive, where you kind
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of accidentally have a meeting and have
a discussion. And off the back of
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that, now we're working on a
number of projects together, bunch of in
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plice meetings, a team's call on
and and that. That point it was
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an empty train on the way home
and then home for runtial zoom sessions.
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But really, if you think about
it, and I know save for Spencer
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is that's how I've worked for the
last twenty years really. So for me
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hybrid is just the way I've worked
normally and the adjustment appears to be more
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for people that are always death bound, but for me it's really like I
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kind of want to get back to
that. Got It, got it,
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got it. I mean, actually, you're talking of hybrid right. I
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had a got a mutual colleague and
friend of an Ani myself, and she
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was has an ear to the ground
about the right terminology to use, right
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and at propos hybrid work, etc. She'd been to a conference all about
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which was full of CIO is full
of senior it leaders and CIO is all
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talking about the pressing topics of the
day, and she came back and said
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look, everyone said they've heard enough
about hybrid work. There their board of
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it. They don't want to hear
about it any more. I said,
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oh my goodness, what are they
talking about? She's well, the Agile
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workspace is very popular and it's the
agile workspace, since it's hybrid work,
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it's exactly the same. It's just
they've all moved on in their terminology.
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So I don't even know what we
should call it or refer to specifically.
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But Spencer, when we talk about
agile work spaces or hybrid work, let's
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break it down. First of all, how do you define it? How
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do you differentiate it, for instance, from what and you were saying?
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He was working as before? You
know, what is new about it and
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how will this evolve going forward?
So there's a lot to digest on that
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one. But it's a good point
because I'd not've been hybrid all the time,
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but I didn't call it hybrid,
I just got it work. So
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it was my basline for what I
considered work. You know, I used
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to before the pandemic, travel lots, so I spend a bit of time
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doing some me wire catching up on
the plane if I was on that,
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or the train. Not so much
on the UK network as the shopping signal
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that was free G or for G
or not as a case maybe, but
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I think for us, you know, that was work. But to and
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these point a lot of people that
used to be in a physical workplace that
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suddenly had to go and relocate at
home for them then coming back in after
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not that we are really over the
pandemic, as we know, there's some
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new stuff coming out and whenever that
might happen. But so might be two
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days in the office, free days
at home or whatever it might be there.
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So I think it's really around those
typical desk bound workers that were suddenly
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allowed to go and work at home. You know, conditions are forced on
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them and now it's like looking back
at it. So I think that's what
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it means from hybrid but for other
personas, and this is the interesting one,
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and and you knows where I'm going
to go with this one. I'm
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big passionate for Eiving B mwhere and
the industry that we've been it, professionals
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have always looked after their traditional personas, and what I mean by that is
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the taskworker. You go to,
typical it teams have been looking after some
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of that. Came to an office
that probably sat behind a PC and then
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sometimes we gave them pieces with handles
and they and home with them. Right,
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so early hybrid working or remote working, but they really just gave them
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the basic tools. Here's an operating
system. I'm I want to make sure
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it's patched and here's some productivity tools. are going to call them rather than
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give the flavor of what they are. That's sort of what most it departments
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have been doing for godders how long. And then mobiles came along and we
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sort said, well, that's just
an extension of a desktop really, isn't
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it, from an IT perspective?
So all you need on now where you
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need? Clearly you need email and
you need productivity tours. But we all
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know things like powerpoint etc. Don't
really work, or pages, depending on
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which flavor, again trying to be
agnostic, they don't really work on a
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mobile delay right. So, and
I've been a big firm believer, it's
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horses for courses and if that translates
to you need the right thing in your
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hands at the right time, given
what your functional your role is. So
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we don't talk about this, for
say, people that never have a desk.
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Now we got customers that don't ever
answer email because they're only interaction with
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head office is because they're in a
shop, as an example, and they're
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interacting for the EPOS system. So
I think we're we got to get into
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this hybrid work. What does that
mean? We've been focusing mostly on the
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people that used to be in the
office, which is normally a task worker.
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But if we take a step back, we should be looking at work
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and really it's not really hybrid,
is it? It's just it's the location
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can change at any time. So
I'm kind of with this agile which taking
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it all the way back to that, I quite like the word adjolder.
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I know agile gets over used in
industry as well when things quick fowl far
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ast as another one right that we
keep using a little succeed quickly as one.
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I particularly like it's got a positive
spin on it. So yeah,
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I think it's you know, it's
it shouldn't really matter what the location is
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anymore. That's the challenge and change. We're always benchmarking back to how it
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used to be. We need this
anchor point and really it's just, well,
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why should it matter where I am? I just need the right thing
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related to my job. And I
used to make this analogy of I don't
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really want my nuclear missile submarine operator
to be on a bring your own device
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at home. I can't want them
to be in a sub using the right
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tool that's specifically designed and they can't
do hybrid work and they are right.
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They needs to be there. So
we just need to take a step back
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and think about all the different personas
and it just traditionally look after the old
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ones. I think it's kind of
where I go with them. Keep the
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analogy, Spencer. It's a powerful
one and and the any challenge. Is
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He bad for that? Yeah,
I think. I think we've talked about
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this a lot, Spencer, but
for me again that we see this lot
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of next thing is this idea that
it needs to stop looking inwards. We
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talk about that a lot, focusing
on technology, and it's just if you
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take one of the things that you
know on boarding new employees, technology becomes
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a component of that, but it's
much wider. It's facilities, it's health
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and safety, it's HR and it's
how do you take someone in, welcome
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them into the business, make them
feel welcome, to make them feel hard,
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and technology plays a part of that. So I lot of the change
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that we're seeing in hybrid work is
it now being forced to look outwards towards
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people rather than inwards towards tech,
and I think hybrid is, or wherever
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you want to call it, is
one of the drivers for that. It's
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now a necessity for it to remain
relevant. They have to work that way,
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otherwise bad things are going to happen. Before we get into hybrid then,
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and in its connection to virtualization,
let's have a quick look over our
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shoulders at the pandemic remote work surge
of a year and change it go.
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I've heard you say something very interesting
before, Spencer, and that's the fact
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that if it wasn't for relatively recent
advances in the whole area of virtualization,
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if I'm if I'm right with that
time, the quite quick adaptation we saw
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across some very sensitive industries to remote
work wouldn't have even been possible at another
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year, at an earlier time.
Is that right? Yeah, pretty much.
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I think there's bit of a perfect
storm for things like D I and
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look for the I are not saying
is the ultimate answer for everybody. To
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my point just a moment ago,
I wouldn't expect my my pizza delivery driver
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to come along with a Vidi desktop
freeze android phone, right so that there
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are better ways of delivering an application. Now for a lot of our customers
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they are, you know, they
have this traditional installation base, if you
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want, of traditional windows or desktop
related application. It's now. Suddenly,
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when everything happened over the pandemic,
the best way to do that was to
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get them to be served that remotely
via virtualization platform, because now everyone's remote.
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Now you don't know where they are. You had to do something very
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quickly, but you need to ensure
that they're secure. So Val I was
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perfect for that. But but in
the background we'd been to your point,
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we've been fixing some of the challenges. Things like the big one is teams
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and zoom or picture, unified coms, flavor of the month for everyone's got
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their own version that you know.
I've got all nineteen billion of them exist
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on my machine, depending on who
I need to speak to you. Right.
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But my point there is that you
go back at two, three years
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ago, doing sort of unified colms, video conferencing, even audio to degree
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presence, desktop sharing together mode or
the new things that you had that they
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weren't really possible, and vide eye. So actually some of the things we've
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done recently to make sure that all
your video conferencing experiences better. That happened,
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but also the cloud as well,
right. So we've seen a mass
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of advancement in people using hyper scalers
to host their virtual desktops because they've had
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application strategies that involve using those as
well. You kind of combine all of
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those things and sadly, the pandemic
and actually it made a perfect use case
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for I need to scale quickly and
get everybody working remote at home. VDI
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was sort of the first port of
call and now I'm not saying it should
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be going forward all the time,
I think as we start to settle down,
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I'm firm believer that there isn't a
one size fits or and I've again.
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You know, I love it and
I came from it and that's the
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notion that I subscribe to. Twenty
years ago and I and everyone should get
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the same thing. It should all
be locked down and could it makes my
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life simple. Right. I don't
think it should be like that now,
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but Vdi was just perfect for the
scenario we happened last year. But I
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still think it's perfect for certain personas. But do your point. You know,
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a lot of advancements meant that actually
it was really for a prime time,
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if you like. We always hear
this term near a Vidi now,
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sadly, because of the happened,
it probably will be known as the year
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of Vidi. Have you even got
a t shirt of no, I think
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you and I were one, and
he's really very cold. Said back to
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the future and it has year Vidi
and it's got the old Dolorian on there.
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I should have supported it today,
but you know, it's probably somewhere
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in the back of my cupboard summer. But anyway, yeah, things have
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happened. That mean there was a
bit of a perfect storm. Thomas Lovely.
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Worry is this is touch upon something
you're you're often saying and you which
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is that there's a there's a profound
misunderstanding about what Vdi is. Still and
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enjoin a clear that. Yeah,
and I think I yeah, I think
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I'd agree everything with spend said.
There was a massive influx for Vidi and
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for death stops as service and for
you know, or infrastructure service, wherever
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you want to call it, because
it was very simple. But I think
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the the biggest misconception, and we
see that with some of the organizations that
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we talked to, is that it's
I think, as you alluded to Spencer
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before, it's just as kind of
lift and shift. You take the physical
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environment, you just plunk it into
a data center or a cloud and they
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go. You've now got your desktop
and it's it's secured, which is,
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I guess, by default it is, but the reality is the way in
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which you have to compose these desktops
and the applications, you have to kind
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of rethink it. So it's very
much like one size doesn't fit all.
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Against Spencer, you've said that already, and the only rule way you need
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to clearly define what people need.
is to understand what they need, how
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they work, when they need it, and you need to know that before
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you can make decisions. Are Out
whether you need to give someone a physical
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pc or a Mac or a think
client and the Vidi or a session based
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computing or dare's or all of the
above. And it's going to be really
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interesting. I think a lot of
decisions that were made in especially around February,
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March, two thousand and twenty.
I think a lot of organizations are
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going to have to go back now
and rethink, especially as and I'm saying
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this with hope in my heart,
Thomas, that we start going back to
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a bit more normality and go more
and more back to getting into offices that,
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whereas before, VDI there's was a
terrible solution for some, like myself
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and Spencer, because we were always
on the road. When people start going
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back for that, those decisions need
to be rethought and that rebalanced, and
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the only real way to do that
is to focus on the way people work,
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which kind of goes back to this
theme we keep talking about, which
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is not starting with a tech and
working out, but starting with the people
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and working back towards tech. So
that's, of course, what digital employ
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experience is all about. So exactly, and with that in mind, then,
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and you, let's talk about digital
employee experience as we like to.
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On the one hand, it's never
been more important. Of course, whereas
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DEX was once an aspect of x, it's now almost consumed employee experience into
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itself through works extreme agility, right. And what are the implications here?
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I mean, how does this impact
the theme and topical CDI? It's really
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interesting and I'll talk briefly. So
I know spends, you want to talk
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about this as well, but I
you know, coming from one of the
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leading vendors in this space, as
in my earlier in my career, is
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you would talk about standardization and orchestration
and we you know, providing all the
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different options for customers, and then
this idea of a great employee experience is
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this kind of last bullet point which
is an end result that just happens magically
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if you do all of this lovely
stuff at the front. And the reality
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is that it's a massive chasm to
jump and you need to understand what these
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is doing. You need to ask
them and you understand how they feel.
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And he's a gotten nothing to do
with measuring things like performance and things within
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a desktop. So I remember talking
to a lot of teams where they kind
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of they're almost proud about how complex
their environments are. Right it's all we've
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got this architecture in here and we
stitch it all together and we and we
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got, you know, a hyperscal
over here and we've got some data center
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over here. But if it doesn't
think about it, take a step back,
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all of the employees, none of
the none of them care about how
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complex it is. They just want
something that works, doesn't get the way
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their job and, you know,
and enables them to do their best work.
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And I think that's really what digital
employeexperience is kind of driving. It's
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kind of focusing on what's really important, the end goal, which is not
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to have a most complex and amazing
architecture, which is more of a Geeky,
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self congratulary, congratulatory kind of view
of the world, which is not
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really helping anyone. So, but
I think, you know, we talked
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about this all the time, expense
over. Maybe you can add something to
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that. I think the thing that's
changed is how people get kpied now,
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right, so you go back a
long time ago and it was all about
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I've got ninety nine percent nine and
ninety ninety nine, all the nines,
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as I used to say, uptime. And you know, I know the
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value of everything, right, but
or the price of everything, I should
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say, but not the value or
deep the entire thing. And I think
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that's the thing that's changed now,
is it? We're very much you just
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need to get your techy stuff working, and then now I start to see
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people more kpied on the user experience
piece as well. Now depends again what
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you mean by user experience. I
get a different companies and different partners and
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different other does in the space as
well, and everyone's got their own terminology.
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But I think that sort of,
as you mentioned, Andy, that
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culmination of that. You do need
to understand what's going on. You need
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visibility to a degree, but you
also need to marry that up with,
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like you said, use a sentiment, etc. To get a sort of
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hybrid form. Now, interestingly,
a lot of it departments still have Kpis
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on the oldware doing things. So
even though they get user experience as a
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bonus, the reason why it's a
bonus to them as well. You know,
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it's not hit in their KPIS,
whereas that might be in HR.
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Hr are interested in those things.
So then it's comes so down to right.
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So it is buying a solution,
but they don't want necessarily get all
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the benefit. Apart from they're being
told, maybe by their cioh that they
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now need to make sure that the
user experience is better. So it's an
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interesting sort of situation. I think
you touched on it earlier. Well,
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Andy, right, there's it's a
lot more than just what used to do.
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It's remis got a bit bigger,
but there's other people in the in
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the family and the team sport as
we call it. You know, HR
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facilities management are now involved, like
I was my story about that. You
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know, unified coms and being almost
like a second class synisom. That's that's
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got an impact that wouldn't normally sit
with it. Facilities Management were doing coms
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and building stuff. It's suddenly got
a lot harder and how do you sort
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of understand all of that that's going
on together? I mean that's the big
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change that needs to happen and it's
not just an it thing now other departments
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are interested. Yeah, I think
just to add to that as well is
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that outward comes. I think the
other value of digit employee experiences. If
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you can get that kind of common
language, it's a lot easier for it
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to then communicate with the rest of
the business, because if you start going
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to the business and saying, Oh, the tickets went down or the meantime
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to resolution reduced or faults went down, I mean someone in hr doesn't really
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care about that. So using a
language it's more centered around this to employ
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experience will also help it have that
common sort of teamwork language which is needed.
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So that's another kind of benefit of
kind of thinking of things differently.
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That's fine for the sending the reports
upwards, which is kind of what use
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are yet it then you still need
that first line support person has the problem,
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someone's phoned up, they don't know
where the issue as you need to
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be able to walk through and get
it fixed, and that became a lot
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harder now we're all hybrid as well, right, so having more tools to
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understand where the problem is, you
can sort of see the trending and get
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that experience score if you like,
but you still need to be able to
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go deeper and fix the problem for
the person that's having an issue. Right
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yeah, and that's just getting harder
and harder, the more complex and the
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hybrid and Heterogeneus in Sass and cloud
and yes, so I think a big
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part of what we see of obvious. Next think, is finding the scope,
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impact and context of issues is a
massively important part of what it has
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to do. And, you know, to take it off track, but
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all too often, I guess you'll
agree with this, the VDI teams and
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the teams that are running those Das
desktops. They unfairly get the blame quite
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often. Right. So, someone
has a problem and it happens to be
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in a virtual desktop. Immediately quite
often we see teams getting escalated, you
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know, level three and engineering and
when in fact it could be something that
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could be scoped out and found at
kind of level one. It might be
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an application issue and nothing to do
with virtual so absolutely right. I think
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traversing that increase complexity is another big
challenge that we see a lot of it
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teams struggling with right now and stuff. And when we look at the evolving
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workplace and we fast forward five years
and we all assume we're going to see
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a lot more are in the work
space, for instance, I mean do
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you see this topic is something that's
going to become especially relevant to that future
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rather than becoming antiquated? I mean, starting with you, Andy, where
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does this go in the next five
years or so? Yeah, we the
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almost got some good stories around there
and I have an oculous quest. Then
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I've joined meetings and you do.
This kind of augmented reality is got some
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use cases and things like manufacturing right
now, which is good, but I'm
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a little little dubious about what a
little bit rested to kind of you know
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when you hear about the metaverse and
all these kind of jacking into the Matrix.
400
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And I think there are good youth
cases today for augmented and virtual reality
401
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and it will become more more prevalent
things that meetings. But again, maybe
402
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I'm just old. Spencer, the
aneric how you felt about it, but
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I I well, I want to
be outside and not plugged in and I
404
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think I already spend my life on
zoom. I'm not sure I want to
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be in a augmented or virtual reality
zoom for you want to be in that
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all. I don't want that.
You wanted that full experience. Gonna.
407
00:26:14.700 --> 00:26:17.859
One of my favorite films is wally
and I just look at that as the
408
00:26:17.900 --> 00:26:22.049
kind of future of mankind and kind
of filled me with dreads. So I
409
00:26:22.130 --> 00:26:25.089
think for me there'll be a point
of where I'll resist technology and that might
410
00:26:25.130 --> 00:26:30.529
be the nay been. So you're
going to give us some more optimistic future?
411
00:26:30.609 --> 00:26:33.720
No here. Well, yeah,
I'm done. Last forward five years
412
00:26:33.759 --> 00:26:34.880
and he's off careers. We don't
know where he is. He's got a
413
00:26:34.960 --> 00:26:41.720
beard kind of light up in the
HUMO bomber over here. Like it.
414
00:26:41.920 --> 00:26:45.400
There are some people that I believe
that that actually taken that approach in well,
415
00:26:47.150 --> 00:26:49.829
California, and such life. Anyway. Now I think it's interesting the
416
00:26:49.869 --> 00:26:52.990
rvr one, because I think that
is another one we're very guilty and I
417
00:26:53.630 --> 00:26:56.789
and I feel like I'm apologizing for
I for the last three things I've opened
418
00:26:56.829 --> 00:27:00.829
with that. A new thing comes
along and it's the answer to everything,
419
00:27:00.869 --> 00:27:03.339
right, and it will be the
single thing we use. And again I
420
00:27:03.940 --> 00:27:07.619
think it's horses for courses. There
are definitely some roles where I r VR
421
00:27:07.700 --> 00:27:10.900
makes sense. Digital twin as you
have one of you here quite a bit
422
00:27:10.900 --> 00:27:14.299
at the moment. That's a that's
a term. I'm doing the rounds and
423
00:27:14.420 --> 00:27:17.369
it's kind of like this, you
know, sentient thing. If you like.
424
00:27:17.690 --> 00:27:19.089
I'm going to stop short scenting.
I won't quite call it. I
425
00:27:19.130 --> 00:27:23.210
don't think Ali's advanced that far yet, right, but it's something that can
426
00:27:23.250 --> 00:27:26.410
help you with your job and it
makes sense. Let's say you're a roadside
427
00:27:26.490 --> 00:27:30.079
breakdown a system, right, you're
not going to keep up to speed with
428
00:27:30.160 --> 00:27:33.440
all the latest things that you need
to understand. That used to learn over
429
00:27:33.519 --> 00:27:37.000
experience as a mechanic or something.
So how do you do that? You
430
00:27:37.039 --> 00:27:40.440
want the schematics of the engine overlaid
perfect use case, right, and it
431
00:27:40.480 --> 00:27:42.240
doesn't have to be a big VR
set. That can just be at mobile
432
00:27:42.359 --> 00:27:45.109
phone with the new ar you know, and some of the things in the
433
00:27:45.150 --> 00:27:51.430
apple chips and that where they can
overlay and understand and the superimpose the schematics
434
00:27:51.470 --> 00:27:53.509
or the part you need to fix. I think that's where it makes sense.
435
00:27:53.950 --> 00:27:57.900
But then it's that line, the
meeting room ones interesting. I still
436
00:27:57.980 --> 00:28:00.140
think there's a lot of work we
need to do. Their based on what
437
00:28:00.220 --> 00:28:03.940
I said earlier right. But yeah, I think going back a little bit
438
00:28:03.980 --> 00:28:08.460
around machine learning, that's the thing
that I think it's really made decks to
439
00:28:08.539 --> 00:28:14.049
hold industry and Change, and also
around things like zero trust. Some of
440
00:28:14.089 --> 00:28:17.289
these concepts are around before, but
we didn't really have enough compute power to
441
00:28:17.369 --> 00:28:19.410
understand them. So, whether you
want to call it machine learning or whether
442
00:28:19.450 --> 00:28:22.650
you just want to say we've got
there's a lot more computer in the cloud
443
00:28:22.650 --> 00:28:25.690
that we can leverage now and check
a load of computer a problem and do
444
00:28:25.849 --> 00:28:27.599
some algorithms on it right, which
is kind of where we are really with
445
00:28:27.759 --> 00:28:32.519
machine learning. For we being totally
frank, you now can get some interesting
446
00:28:32.559 --> 00:28:36.640
numbers out and Statistics and some conclusions. You can really do that for you
447
00:28:36.759 --> 00:28:38.319
four years ago, and I think
that pass only going to get better and
448
00:28:38.400 --> 00:28:41.069
better. So I think the future
is we're going to we're going to add
449
00:28:41.150 --> 00:28:45.390
more and more insights. Now then
the question is, what do we do
450
00:28:45.509 --> 00:28:48.750
with those? Right, and that
becomes that sort of more philosophical type argument,
451
00:28:48.789 --> 00:28:52.710
I guess. But Yeah, I'm
pretty sure I do want to unplug
452
00:28:52.750 --> 00:28:55.710
from the Matrix at some point every
now and again. Andy, what I
453
00:28:55.859 --> 00:28:57.539
there is one new one coming out
that I want to plug into very soon.
454
00:28:59.460 --> 00:29:03.059
You're going to go full John Conner
like Andy. Is Important. I
455
00:29:03.220 --> 00:29:07.779
know Crom food. I have his
name right in the Terminator. John Conner
456
00:29:07.859 --> 00:29:10.730
Right. Yeah, and it come
with me if you want to live,
457
00:29:10.769 --> 00:29:15.049
if you really want to learn.
Yeah, said. Anyway, listens as
458
00:29:15.049 --> 00:29:18.849
it's been great to speak to you
both. Hope to have you both on
459
00:29:18.970 --> 00:29:22.569
it again, but if anyone needs
another hit from your insights sooner than that,
460
00:29:22.890 --> 00:29:25.359
check the show notes for a link
to the deck show, decks hub
461
00:29:25.440 --> 00:29:29.240
mother ship. What you can find
fantastic, original articles, but from both
462
00:29:29.319 --> 00:29:33.559
of these gentlemen and from many other
contributors to until then, we'll see you
463
00:29:33.599 --> 00:29:38.670
all in two weeks time. Thank
you very much. To make sure that
464
00:29:38.789 --> 00:29:42.950
you never miss an episode, subscribe
to the show in Apple Podcast, spotify,
465
00:29:44.309 --> 00:29:48.190
your favorite podcast player, and if
you're listening on Apple PODCASTS, make
466
00:29:48.230 --> 00:29:51.150
sure to leave a rating at the
show. Just have the number of stars
467
00:29:51.230 --> 00:29:53.980
you think the podcast deserves. If
you like to learn more about how next
468
00:29:55.019 --> 00:29:59.619
thing can help me improve your digital
employee experience, head over to next thingcom.
469
00:30:00.099 --> 00:30:02.339
Thank you so much for listening.
Until next time.
1
00:00:01.240 --> 00:00:06.480
Welcome it, changemakers to the deck
show with Tim Flower and Tom mcgras.
2
00:00:06.919 --> 00:00:11.949
Let's get into it. Hello,
change makers, welcome to the deck show.
3
00:00:12.070 --> 00:00:16.510
I'm Tom mcgrat. It's a solo
episode from me today, not suggesting
4
00:00:17.109 --> 00:00:20.230
you stuck with me and my own
insights for our half hour or so together.
5
00:00:20.350 --> 00:00:24.620
have no fear, merely that I
am timuless and joint instead by two
6
00:00:24.699 --> 00:00:28.859
guests who are going to help us
to explore the technical side of the hybrid
7
00:00:29.339 --> 00:00:32.579
workplace. Both of them, the
better or worse, are Brits like me,
8
00:00:33.259 --> 00:00:36.770
but unlike me that both very well
regarded fort leaders in the whole realm
9
00:00:36.850 --> 00:00:41.490
of Vidi, desktop virtualization, desktop
as a service, DAS. And if
10
00:00:41.530 --> 00:00:45.609
I sound like I'm spearing out technical
terminology without a clear sense of the difference
11
00:00:45.649 --> 00:00:48.810
between the terms, it's because I
might just be. And that's one of
12
00:00:48.850 --> 00:00:52.399
the reasons that they're here. So
let's get to it, into them and
13
00:00:52.520 --> 00:00:56.960
welcome the first of our guests,
Spencer pits. He's a digital workspace chief
14
00:00:57.039 --> 00:01:00.240
technologist at vmwhere. Spencer, we're
delighted to have you with us. Welcome
15
00:01:00.240 --> 00:01:04.069
to the show. Well, thank
you, thanks for having me and Yeah,
16
00:01:04.629 --> 00:01:08.829
interesting. Some of those acronyms and
terminologies. You he were just spearing
17
00:01:08.870 --> 00:01:11.030
out, like you just said.
So yeah, if maybe we're get a
18
00:01:11.069 --> 00:01:14.430
chance on the second we can talk
about those. But yeah, thanks for
19
00:01:14.469 --> 00:01:17.189
having me on. You did recognize
them, right, I did. I
20
00:01:17.230 --> 00:01:21.060
didn't get them wildly wrong or anything. Well, I recognized them. It's
21
00:01:21.099 --> 00:01:23.459
a bit like that. And now
I'm showing my age. You know when
22
00:01:23.459 --> 00:01:26.340
I said that you're playing all the
right letters but in the on order.
23
00:01:26.739 --> 00:01:29.980
Yeah, how right, right,
right. Well, yeah, there's work
24
00:01:30.060 --> 00:01:33.010
to be done on my awareness.
He I'm glad you have its great to
25
00:01:33.049 --> 00:01:37.569
have you with a spencer from a
s show, not that I'm saying that
26
00:01:37.650 --> 00:01:40.290
I'm of that ilk, by the
way. I just remember the reruns,
27
00:01:40.569 --> 00:01:44.090
as you Americans Weds Day. But
Anna good. It will start by insulting
28
00:01:44.129 --> 00:01:48.200
your host. Is a good way
to begin. And there's welcome our other
29
00:01:48.280 --> 00:01:51.920
guest. Maybe he'll insult me as
well, my colleague and fellow next thing.
30
00:01:52.000 --> 00:01:56.719
Yeah, and former colleague and VM
wearer of Spencer, Andy Phil and
31
00:01:56.879 --> 00:01:59.439
he welcome to the deck show.
Great to have you with US too.
32
00:02:00.319 --> 00:02:02.790
Yeah, thank you. And Yeah, I'm used to Spencer. I was
33
00:02:02.829 --> 00:02:06.430
used. I was the host of
a vmwhere podcast and he would insort me
34
00:02:06.469 --> 00:02:09.189
all the time, as I can
still quite not quite true, but anyway,
35
00:02:10.509 --> 00:02:14.430
it's positive, fantastic. Okay,
guys, first things first, because
36
00:02:14.430 --> 00:02:19.939
we are going to explore the hybrid
workplace in general a little bit today,
37
00:02:19.939 --> 00:02:23.139
as well as all of the acronyms
and terms I miss used earlier. But
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00:02:23.180 --> 00:02:27.419
I'd like to begin with a general
question. What have your return to office
39
00:02:27.819 --> 00:02:30.330
experience is being like in the course
of the last twelve months or so,
40
00:02:30.930 --> 00:02:35.250
in fact, that you always hear
these cliches about our it was so wonderful
41
00:02:35.330 --> 00:02:38.849
to see everybody in the flesh again, and we're I'm a little bored of
42
00:02:38.930 --> 00:02:42.530
hearing them, so I want to
start today with the bad side of going
43
00:02:42.610 --> 00:02:45.120
back to the office. So we
with you first of all, Andy,
44
00:02:45.199 --> 00:02:49.080
putting all of that sort of love
you dovey stuff to one side. What
45
00:02:49.280 --> 00:02:52.280
was the point where you fought?
Yeah, God, I remember the vist.
46
00:02:52.360 --> 00:02:53.840
Going to the office can be rubbish
sometimes, kind of. But what
47
00:02:54.120 --> 00:02:58.590
was it? Yeah, I got
a couple of all. For me it's
48
00:02:58.629 --> 00:03:02.229
public transport. So now that I
work at next thing, going into London
49
00:03:02.270 --> 00:03:07.270
and being on the trains and tubes, I think I did it once and
50
00:03:07.870 --> 00:03:10.189
the way committigate that was pretty quick. I went straight back to walking.
51
00:03:10.550 --> 00:03:14.219
The next thing. Office is about
a twenty five minute walk from Waterloo,
52
00:03:14.300 --> 00:03:17.659
so straight back on that. But
that's kind of the more less serious one.
53
00:03:17.659 --> 00:03:22.500
The more serious one was just everyone's
wearing masks and London is one of
54
00:03:22.539 --> 00:03:24.340
these cities is a bit like New
York, where, you know, no
55
00:03:24.419 --> 00:03:27.409
one looks at each other, no
one's got the time of day, everyone's
56
00:03:27.449 --> 00:03:30.449
in a rush, everyone's got so
where to be, no one makes eye
57
00:03:30.490 --> 00:03:35.090
contact and it's just that's exacerbated by
masks. Yeah, and it's very just
58
00:03:35.169 --> 00:03:38.610
felt very impersonal. Getting to where
you need to get to even more than
59
00:03:38.650 --> 00:03:40.800
the as a good up of the
idea. That that one for that's a
60
00:03:40.840 --> 00:03:45.840
good point. And everybody is like
super squeezed together as well, right,
61
00:03:45.919 --> 00:03:51.080
but in masks it's quite a lasers
and and anxiety levels are just ratched up
62
00:03:51.080 --> 00:03:53.319
a little bit as well. So
yeah, that that that that doesn't sound
63
00:03:53.400 --> 00:03:55.229
too great. Well, about you, Spencer. Have you? Have you
64
00:03:55.310 --> 00:04:00.229
been inter vm where's offices and had
any experiences which were less than pleasurable?
65
00:04:02.069 --> 00:04:05.590
Well, let's just country to belief
that I'd actually even gone back to an
66
00:04:05.590 --> 00:04:09.949
office without free time. So far, so I've done one speaking engagement.
67
00:04:10.060 --> 00:04:15.219
Well, I actually had to somehow
speak, rather than behind a screen and
68
00:04:15.300 --> 00:04:18.339
all the lovely paraphernalia I've acquired at
the last eighteen months. I actually have
69
00:04:18.420 --> 00:04:23.500
to stand that was weird. People
have legs apparenting, which is just trying
70
00:04:23.579 --> 00:04:26.569
people at work with actual you have
legs. Was was point number one,
71
00:04:26.610 --> 00:04:30.370
but it's for me. Getting up
on the train was actually quite nice in
72
00:04:30.449 --> 00:04:33.449
one weird way, so contrary to
what Andy was saying, because a lot
73
00:04:33.449 --> 00:04:36.810
of people still at home, actually
it felt like it wasn't so squeezed in
74
00:04:36.850 --> 00:04:40.319
on the tube EXCP. But maybe
that was just when I went back.
75
00:04:40.439 --> 00:04:44.800
But the worst experience, though,
I think is is that sort of some
76
00:04:44.959 --> 00:04:46.759
people are at home and some people
are in the office, and especially when
77
00:04:46.759 --> 00:04:53.509
you're doing a you know ten people
round a you know like a balldroom type
78
00:04:53.589 --> 00:04:57.589
with the the elder camera up the
top there, and then suddenly at the
79
00:04:57.629 --> 00:05:00.110
end of the meeting you forget that
somebody else was on the Corese. I
80
00:05:00.230 --> 00:05:01.910
think there's some man. You've been
slagging them off for a couple of minutes
81
00:05:01.990 --> 00:05:06.379
and then you hear this kind of
quiet cough into the into the that's it.
82
00:05:08.019 --> 00:05:12.980
John's on the call still, yeah, the only you still there.
83
00:05:13.220 --> 00:05:15.100
We're just going to log off now. You know, we knew that all
84
00:05:15.100 --> 00:05:20.529
along, fam we were just kidding
exactly. But, and seriously, though,
85
00:05:20.569 --> 00:05:25.050
I think that is a problem,
though, is that hybrid. It's
86
00:05:25.089 --> 00:05:28.329
all great. What everybody's in one
place. I think everybody made working at
87
00:05:28.370 --> 00:05:30.209
home work because we're all in the
same boat, right, so we're all
88
00:05:30.250 --> 00:05:34.569
on the screen and I think it's
been a leveler everyone in the office to
89
00:05:34.689 --> 00:05:39.399
a degree. And if you think
even way before the pandemic, it was
90
00:05:39.439 --> 00:05:42.360
almost a bit like, well,
we don't really care about you if you're
91
00:05:42.360 --> 00:05:45.399
on a call, unless you are
from a pleat different you know, geography,
92
00:05:45.480 --> 00:05:46.920
then you sort of said okay,
but if you were sort of in
93
00:05:47.000 --> 00:05:50.110
the same country and you didn't make
it to the office, it was almost
94
00:05:50.110 --> 00:05:53.470
like, well, we don't really
care about you because you're clearly not bothered
95
00:05:53.509 --> 00:05:55.870
because you didn't come to the office. There was almost like a bit of
96
00:05:55.910 --> 00:05:59.709
a two tier thing going on there, right. That's how it used to
97
00:05:59.750 --> 00:06:02.509
feel anyway, and I think you
know, over the pandemic that's got better.
98
00:06:03.300 --> 00:06:06.779
But I have to admit the quality
and how you sort of how you
99
00:06:06.899 --> 00:06:11.540
have to address multiple groups, so
the people in front of you as well
100
00:06:11.620 --> 00:06:15.180
as people in the call. I
found that particularly hard, and I being
101
00:06:15.220 --> 00:06:16.420
one of those people in the call
when I couldn't make it in because my
102
00:06:16.500 --> 00:06:20.649
kids had to self isolated my wife. Yeah, and and being on the
103
00:06:20.689 --> 00:06:23.970
other end, if you know what
I mean, I found that quite bad
104
00:06:24.009 --> 00:06:26.290
as well. But yes, but
other than the travel, I didn't think
105
00:06:26.290 --> 00:06:30.529
we was too bad. Great reflection
on some of the challenges of the hybrid
106
00:06:30.610 --> 00:06:33.199
work place there. And you got
any any reflections on hybrid per se?
107
00:06:33.800 --> 00:06:40.959
That differs from it? Well,
I think kind of in that I think
108
00:06:41.000 --> 00:06:46.120
of the most Highbrid Day was last
week went into the office, you know,
109
00:06:46.800 --> 00:06:48.990
and bumped into someone actually that used
to work at Vm or as well,
110
00:06:49.949 --> 00:06:53.589
totally by accidents, as like one
of those kind of yours here the
111
00:06:53.709 --> 00:06:57.550
watercooler moment. But that's where the
office really comes alive, where you kind
112
00:06:57.550 --> 00:07:00.149
of accidentally have a meeting and have
a discussion. And off the back of
113
00:07:00.269 --> 00:07:03.699
that, now we're working on a
number of projects together, bunch of in
114
00:07:03.779 --> 00:07:08.779
plice meetings, a team's call on
and and that. That point it was
115
00:07:08.779 --> 00:07:12.540
an empty train on the way home
and then home for runtial zoom sessions.
116
00:07:12.620 --> 00:07:15.449
But really, if you think about
it, and I know save for Spencer
117
00:07:15.569 --> 00:07:18.449
is that's how I've worked for the
last twenty years really. So for me
118
00:07:18.569 --> 00:07:23.610
hybrid is just the way I've worked
normally and the adjustment appears to be more
119
00:07:23.689 --> 00:07:27.449
for people that are always death bound, but for me it's really like I
120
00:07:27.490 --> 00:07:30.800
kind of want to get back to
that. Got It, got it,
121
00:07:30.120 --> 00:07:32.680
got it. I mean, actually, you're talking of hybrid right. I
122
00:07:32.759 --> 00:07:38.199
had a got a mutual colleague and
friend of an Ani myself, and she
123
00:07:38.720 --> 00:07:42.079
was has an ear to the ground
about the right terminology to use, right
124
00:07:42.160 --> 00:07:46.589
and at propos hybrid work, etc. She'd been to a conference all about
125
00:07:46.149 --> 00:07:49.870
which was full of CIO is full
of senior it leaders and CIO is all
126
00:07:49.910 --> 00:07:53.949
talking about the pressing topics of the
day, and she came back and said
127
00:07:53.990 --> 00:07:57.870
look, everyone said they've heard enough
about hybrid work. There their board of
128
00:07:57.949 --> 00:07:59.819
it. They don't want to hear
about it any more. I said,
129
00:07:59.819 --> 00:08:01.300
oh my goodness, what are they
talking about? She's well, the Agile
130
00:08:01.420 --> 00:08:05.939
workspace is very popular and it's the
agile workspace, since it's hybrid work,
131
00:08:07.180 --> 00:08:11.100
it's exactly the same. It's just
they've all moved on in their terminology.
132
00:08:11.139 --> 00:08:13.649
So I don't even know what we
should call it or refer to specifically.
133
00:08:13.970 --> 00:08:18.290
But Spencer, when we talk about
agile work spaces or hybrid work, let's
134
00:08:18.329 --> 00:08:22.529
break it down. First of all, how do you define it? How
135
00:08:22.569 --> 00:08:24.490
do you differentiate it, for instance, from what and you were saying?
136
00:08:24.490 --> 00:08:28.519
He was working as before? You
know, what is new about it and
137
00:08:30.079 --> 00:08:35.840
how will this evolve going forward?
So there's a lot to digest on that
138
00:08:35.919 --> 00:08:39.440
one. But it's a good point
because I'd not've been hybrid all the time,
139
00:08:39.480 --> 00:08:41.509
but I didn't call it hybrid,
I just got it work. So
140
00:08:41.710 --> 00:08:46.190
it was my basline for what I
considered work. You know, I used
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to before the pandemic, travel lots, so I spend a bit of time
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doing some me wire catching up on
the plane if I was on that,
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or the train. Not so much
on the UK network as the shopping signal
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that was free G or for G
or not as a case maybe, but
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I think for us, you know, that was work. But to and
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these point a lot of people that
used to be in a physical workplace that
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suddenly had to go and relocate at
home for them then coming back in after
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not that we are really over the
pandemic, as we know, there's some
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new stuff coming out and whenever that
might happen. But so might be two
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days in the office, free days
at home or whatever it might be there.
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So I think it's really around those
typical desk bound workers that were suddenly
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allowed to go and work at home. You know, conditions are forced on
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them and now it's like looking back
at it. So I think that's what
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it means from hybrid but for other
personas, and this is the interesting one,
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and and you knows where I'm going
to go with this one. I'm
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big passionate for Eiving B mwhere and
the industry that we've been it, professionals
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have always looked after their traditional personas, and what I mean by that is
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the taskworker. You go to,
typical it teams have been looking after some
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of that. Came to an office
that probably sat behind a PC and then
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sometimes we gave them pieces with handles
and they and home with them. Right,
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so early hybrid working or remote working, but they really just gave them
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the basic tools. Here's an operating
system. I'm I want to make sure
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it's patched and here's some productivity tools. are going to call them rather than
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give the flavor of what they are. That's sort of what most it departments
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have been doing for godders how long. And then mobiles came along and we
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sort said, well, that's just
an extension of a desktop really, isn't
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it, from an IT perspective?
So all you need on now where you
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need? Clearly you need email and
you need productivity tours. But we all
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know things like powerpoint etc. Don't
really work, or pages, depending on
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which flavor, again trying to be
agnostic, they don't really work on a
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mobile delay right. So, and
I've been a big firm believer, it's
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horses for courses and if that translates
to you need the right thing in your
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hands at the right time, given
what your functional your role is. So
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we don't talk about this, for
say, people that never have a desk.
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Now we got customers that don't ever
answer email because they're only interaction with
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head office is because they're in a
shop, as an example, and they're
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interacting for the EPOS system. So
I think we're we got to get into
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this hybrid work. What does that
mean? We've been focusing mostly on the
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people that used to be in the
office, which is normally a task worker.
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But if we take a step back, we should be looking at work
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and really it's not really hybrid,
is it? It's just it's the location
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can change at any time. So
I'm kind of with this agile which taking
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it all the way back to that, I quite like the word adjolder.
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I know agile gets over used in
industry as well when things quick fowl far
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ast as another one right that we
keep using a little succeed quickly as one.
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I particularly like it's got a positive
spin on it. So yeah,
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I think it's you know, it's
it shouldn't really matter what the location is
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anymore. That's the challenge and change. We're always benchmarking back to how it
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used to be. We need this
anchor point and really it's just, well,
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why should it matter where I am? I just need the right thing
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related to my job. And I
used to make this analogy of I don't
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really want my nuclear missile submarine operator
to be on a bring your own device
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at home. I can't want them
to be in a sub using the right
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tool that's specifically designed and they can't
do hybrid work and they are right.
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They needs to be there. So
we just need to take a step back
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and think about all the different personas
and it just traditionally look after the old
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ones. I think it's kind of
where I go with them. Keep the
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analogy, Spencer. It's a powerful
one and and the any challenge. Is
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He bad for that? Yeah,
I think. I think we've talked about
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this a lot, Spencer, but
for me again that we see this lot
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of next thing is this idea that
it needs to stop looking inwards. We
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talk about that a lot, focusing
on technology, and it's just if you
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take one of the things that you
know on boarding new employees, technology becomes
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a component of that, but it's
much wider. It's facilities, it's health
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and safety, it's HR and it's
how do you take someone in, welcome
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them into the business, make them
feel welcome, to make them feel hard,
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and technology plays a part of that. So I lot of the change
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that we're seeing in hybrid work is
it now being forced to look outwards towards
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people rather than inwards towards tech,
and I think hybrid is, or wherever
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you want to call it, is
one of the drivers for that. It's
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now a necessity for it to remain
relevant. They have to work that way,
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otherwise bad things are going to happen. Before we get into hybrid then,
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and in its connection to virtualization,
let's have a quick look over our
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shoulders at the pandemic remote work surge
of a year and change it go.
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I've heard you say something very interesting
before, Spencer, and that's the fact
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that if it wasn't for relatively recent
advances in the whole area of virtualization,
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if I'm if I'm right with that
time, the quite quick adaptation we saw
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across some very sensitive industries to remote
work wouldn't have even been possible at another
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year, at an earlier time.
Is that right? Yeah, pretty much.
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I think there's bit of a perfect
storm for things like D I and
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look for the I are not saying
is the ultimate answer for everybody. To
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my point just a moment ago,
I wouldn't expect my my pizza delivery driver
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to come along with a Vidi desktop
freeze android phone, right so that there
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are better ways of delivering an application. Now for a lot of our customers
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they are, you know, they
have this traditional installation base, if you
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want, of traditional windows or desktop
related application. It's now. Suddenly,
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when everything happened over the pandemic,
the best way to do that was to
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get them to be served that remotely
via virtualization platform, because now everyone's remote.
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Now you don't know where they are. You had to do something very
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quickly, but you need to ensure
that they're secure. So Val I was
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perfect for that. But but in
the background we'd been to your point,
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we've been fixing some of the challenges. Things like the big one is teams
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and zoom or picture, unified coms, flavor of the month for everyone's got
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their own version that you know.
I've got all nineteen billion of them exist
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on my machine, depending on who
I need to speak to you. Right.
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But my point there is that you
go back at two, three years
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ago, doing sort of unified colms, video conferencing, even audio to degree
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presence, desktop sharing together mode or
the new things that you had that they
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weren't really possible, and vide eye. So actually some of the things we've
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done recently to make sure that all
your video conferencing experiences better. That happened,
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but also the cloud as well,
right. So we've seen a mass
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of advancement in people using hyper scalers
to host their virtual desktops because they've had
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application strategies that involve using those as
well. You kind of combine all of
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those things and sadly, the pandemic
and actually it made a perfect use case
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for I need to scale quickly and
get everybody working remote at home. VDI
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was sort of the first port of
call and now I'm not saying it should
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be going forward all the time,
I think as we start to settle down,
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I'm firm believer that there isn't a
one size fits or and I've again.
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You know, I love it and
I came from it and that's the
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notion that I subscribe to. Twenty
years ago and I and everyone should get
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the same thing. It should all
be locked down and could it makes my
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life simple. Right. I don't
think it should be like that now,
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but Vdi was just perfect for the
scenario we happened last year. But I
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still think it's perfect for certain personas. But do your point. You know,
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a lot of advancements meant that actually
it was really for a prime time,
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if you like. We always hear
this term near a Vidi now,
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sadly, because of the happened,
it probably will be known as the year
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of Vidi. Have you even got
a t shirt of no, I think
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you and I were one, and
he's really very cold. Said back to
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the future and it has year Vidi
and it's got the old Dolorian on there.
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I should have supported it today,
but you know, it's probably somewhere
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in the back of my cupboard summer. But anyway, yeah, things have
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happened. That mean there was a
bit of a perfect storm. Thomas Lovely.
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Worry is this is touch upon something
you're you're often saying and you which
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is that there's a there's a profound
misunderstanding about what Vdi is. Still and
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enjoin a clear that. Yeah,
and I think I yeah, I think
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I'd agree everything with spend said.
There was a massive influx for Vidi and
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for death stops as service and for
you know, or infrastructure service, wherever
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you want to call it, because
it was very simple. But I think
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the the biggest misconception, and we
see that with some of the organizations that
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we talked to, is that it's
I think, as you alluded to Spencer
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before, it's just as kind of
lift and shift. You take the physical
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environment, you just plunk it into
a data center or a cloud and they
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go. You've now got your desktop
and it's it's secured, which is,
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I guess, by default it is, but the reality is the way in
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which you have to compose these desktops
and the applications, you have to kind
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of rethink it. So it's very
much like one size doesn't fit all.
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Against Spencer, you've said that already, and the only rule way you need
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to clearly define what people need.
is to understand what they need, how
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they work, when they need it, and you need to know that before
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you can make decisions. Are Out
whether you need to give someone a physical
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pc or a Mac or a think
client and the Vidi or a session based
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computing or dare's or all of the
above. And it's going to be really
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interesting. I think a lot of
decisions that were made in especially around February,
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March, two thousand and twenty.
I think a lot of organizations are
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going to have to go back now
and rethink, especially as and I'm saying
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this with hope in my heart,
Thomas, that we start going back to
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a bit more normality and go more
and more back to getting into offices that,
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whereas before, VDI there's was a
terrible solution for some, like myself
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and Spencer, because we were always
on the road. When people start going
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back for that, those decisions need
to be rethought and that rebalanced, and
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the only real way to do that
is to focus on the way people work,
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which kind of goes back to this
theme we keep talking about, which
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is not starting with a tech and
working out, but starting with the people
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and working back towards tech. So
that's, of course, what digital employ
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experience is all about. So exactly, and with that in mind, then,
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and you, let's talk about digital
employee experience as we like to.
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On the one hand, it's never
been more important. Of course, whereas
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DEX was once an aspect of x, it's now almost consumed employee experience into
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itself through works extreme agility, right. And what are the implications here?
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I mean, how does this impact
the theme and topical CDI? It's really
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interesting and I'll talk briefly. So
I know spends, you want to talk
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about this as well, but I
you know, coming from one of the
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leading vendors in this space, as
in my earlier in my career, is
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you would talk about standardization and orchestration
and we you know, providing all the
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different options for customers, and then
this idea of a great employee experience is
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this kind of last bullet point which
is an end result that just happens magically
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if you do all of this lovely
stuff at the front. And the reality
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is that it's a massive chasm to
jump and you need to understand what these
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is doing. You need to ask
them and you understand how they feel.
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And he's a gotten nothing to do
with measuring things like performance and things within
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a desktop. So I remember talking
to a lot of teams where they kind
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of they're almost proud about how complex
their environments are. Right it's all we've
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got this architecture in here and we
stitch it all together and we and we
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got, you know, a hyperscal
over here and we've got some data center
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over here. But if it doesn't
think about it, take a step back,
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all of the employees, none of
the none of them care about how
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complex it is. They just want
something that works, doesn't get the way
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their job and, you know,
and enables them to do their best work.
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And I think that's really what digital
employeexperience is kind of driving. It's
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kind of focusing on what's really important, the end goal, which is not
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to have a most complex and amazing
architecture, which is more of a Geeky,
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self congratulary, congratulatory kind of view
of the world, which is not
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really helping anyone. So, but
I think, you know, we talked
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about this all the time, expense
over. Maybe you can add something to
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that. I think the thing that's
changed is how people get kpied now,
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right, so you go back a
long time ago and it was all about
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I've got ninety nine percent nine and
ninety ninety nine, all the nines,
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as I used to say, uptime. And you know, I know the
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value of everything, right, but
or the price of everything, I should
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say, but not the value or
deep the entire thing. And I think
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that's the thing that's changed now,
is it? We're very much you just
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need to get your techy stuff working, and then now I start to see
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people more kpied on the user experience
piece as well. Now depends again what
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you mean by user experience. I
get a different companies and different partners and
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different other does in the space as
well, and everyone's got their own terminology.
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But I think that sort of,
as you mentioned, Andy, that
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culmination of that. You do need
to understand what's going on. You need
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visibility to a degree, but you
also need to marry that up with,
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like you said, use a sentiment, etc. To get a sort of
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hybrid form. Now, interestingly,
a lot of it departments still have Kpis
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on the oldware doing things. So
even though they get user experience as a
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bonus, the reason why it's a
bonus to them as well. You know,
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it's not hit in their KPIS,
whereas that might be in HR.
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Hr are interested in those things.
So then it's comes so down to right.
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So it is buying a solution,
but they don't want necessarily get all
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the benefit. Apart from they're being
told, maybe by their cioh that they
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now need to make sure that the
user experience is better. So it's an
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interesting sort of situation. I think
you touched on it earlier. Well,
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Andy, right, there's it's a
lot more than just what used to do.
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It's remis got a bit bigger,
but there's other people in the in
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the family and the team sport as
we call it. You know, HR
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facilities management are now involved, like
I was my story about that. You
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know, unified coms and being almost
like a second class synisom. That's that's
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got an impact that wouldn't normally sit
with it. Facilities Management were doing coms
356
00:22:40.490 --> 00:22:44.480
and building stuff. It's suddenly got
a lot harder and how do you sort
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of understand all of that that's going
on together? I mean that's the big
358
00:22:47.920 --> 00:22:52.039
change that needs to happen and it's
not just an it thing now other departments
359
00:22:52.079 --> 00:22:56.000
are interested. Yeah, I think
just to add to that as well is
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that outward comes. I think the
other value of digit employee experiences. If
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you can get that kind of common
language, it's a lot easier for it
362
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to then communicate with the rest of
the business, because if you start going
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to the business and saying, Oh, the tickets went down or the meantime
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to resolution reduced or faults went down, I mean someone in hr doesn't really
365
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care about that. So using a
language it's more centered around this to employ
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experience will also help it have that
common sort of teamwork language which is needed.
367
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So that's another kind of benefit of
kind of thinking of things differently.
368
00:23:33.490 --> 00:23:37.490
That's fine for the sending the reports
upwards, which is kind of what use
369
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are yet it then you still need
that first line support person has the problem,
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00:23:41.519 --> 00:23:44.799
someone's phoned up, they don't know
where the issue as you need to
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00:23:44.839 --> 00:23:48.039
be able to walk through and get
it fixed, and that became a lot
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00:23:48.119 --> 00:23:51.319
harder now we're all hybrid as well, right, so having more tools to
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understand where the problem is, you
can sort of see the trending and get
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that experience score if you like,
but you still need to be able to
375
00:23:57.910 --> 00:24:02.309
go deeper and fix the problem for
the person that's having an issue. Right
376
00:24:02.309 --> 00:24:07.430
yeah, and that's just getting harder
and harder, the more complex and the
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00:24:07.470 --> 00:24:11.380
hybrid and Heterogeneus in Sass and cloud
and yes, so I think a big
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00:24:11.460 --> 00:24:15.220
part of what we see of obvious. Next think, is finding the scope,
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impact and context of issues is a
massively important part of what it has
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00:24:21.339 --> 00:24:23.890
to do. And, you know, to take it off track, but
381
00:24:25.329 --> 00:24:27.170
all too often, I guess you'll
agree with this, the VDI teams and
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00:24:27.250 --> 00:24:32.089
the teams that are running those Das
desktops. They unfairly get the blame quite
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00:24:32.130 --> 00:24:34.210
often. Right. So, someone
has a problem and it happens to be
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00:24:34.289 --> 00:24:38.640
in a virtual desktop. Immediately quite
often we see teams getting escalated, you
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00:24:38.720 --> 00:24:42.279
know, level three and engineering and
when in fact it could be something that
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00:24:42.440 --> 00:24:47.000
could be scoped out and found at
kind of level one. It might be
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00:24:47.240 --> 00:24:52.279
an application issue and nothing to do
with virtual so absolutely right. I think
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00:24:52.029 --> 00:24:57.230
traversing that increase complexity is another big
challenge that we see a lot of it
389
00:24:57.309 --> 00:25:03.589
teams struggling with right now and stuff. And when we look at the evolving
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00:25:03.670 --> 00:25:07.460
workplace and we fast forward five years
and we all assume we're going to see
391
00:25:07.460 --> 00:25:10.859
a lot more are in the work
space, for instance, I mean do
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00:25:10.940 --> 00:25:15.140
you see this topic is something that's
going to become especially relevant to that future
393
00:25:15.140 --> 00:25:18.380
rather than becoming antiquated? I mean, starting with you, Andy, where
394
00:25:18.380 --> 00:25:23.769
does this go in the next five
years or so? Yeah, we the
395
00:25:23.890 --> 00:25:27.130
almost got some good stories around there
and I have an oculous quest. Then
396
00:25:27.289 --> 00:25:32.690
I've joined meetings and you do.
This kind of augmented reality is got some
397
00:25:32.769 --> 00:25:36.640
use cases and things like manufacturing right
now, which is good, but I'm
398
00:25:36.640 --> 00:25:41.400
a little little dubious about what a
little bit rested to kind of you know
399
00:25:41.480 --> 00:25:45.720
when you hear about the metaverse and
all these kind of jacking into the Matrix.
400
00:25:45.839 --> 00:25:49.109
And I think there are good youth
cases today for augmented and virtual reality
401
00:25:49.269 --> 00:25:56.710
and it will become more more prevalent
things that meetings. But again, maybe
402
00:25:56.750 --> 00:25:59.109
I'm just old. Spencer, the
aneric how you felt about it, but
403
00:25:59.150 --> 00:26:02.309
I I well, I want to
be outside and not plugged in and I
404
00:26:02.430 --> 00:26:04.819
think I already spend my life on
zoom. I'm not sure I want to
405
00:26:04.859 --> 00:26:10.339
be in a augmented or virtual reality
zoom for you want to be in that
406
00:26:10.500 --> 00:26:12.180
all. I don't want that.
You wanted that full experience. Gonna.
407
00:26:14.700 --> 00:26:17.859
One of my favorite films is wally
and I just look at that as the
408
00:26:17.900 --> 00:26:22.049
kind of future of mankind and kind
of filled me with dreads. So I
409
00:26:22.130 --> 00:26:25.089
think for me there'll be a point
of where I'll resist technology and that might
410
00:26:25.130 --> 00:26:30.529
be the nay been. So you're
going to give us some more optimistic future?
411
00:26:30.609 --> 00:26:33.720
No here. Well, yeah,
I'm done. Last forward five years
412
00:26:33.759 --> 00:26:34.880
and he's off careers. We don't
know where he is. He's got a
413
00:26:34.960 --> 00:26:41.720
beard kind of light up in the
HUMO bomber over here. Like it.
414
00:26:41.920 --> 00:26:45.400
There are some people that I believe
that that actually taken that approach in well,
415
00:26:47.150 --> 00:26:49.829
California, and such life. Anyway. Now I think it's interesting the
416
00:26:49.869 --> 00:26:52.990
rvr one, because I think that
is another one we're very guilty and I
417
00:26:53.630 --> 00:26:56.789
and I feel like I'm apologizing for
I for the last three things I've opened
418
00:26:56.829 --> 00:27:00.829
with that. A new thing comes
along and it's the answer to everything,
419
00:27:00.869 --> 00:27:03.339
right, and it will be the
single thing we use. And again I
420
00:27:03.940 --> 00:27:07.619
think it's horses for courses. There
are definitely some roles where I r VR
421
00:27:07.700 --> 00:27:10.900
makes sense. Digital twin as you
have one of you here quite a bit
422
00:27:10.900 --> 00:27:14.299
at the moment. That's a that's
a term. I'm doing the rounds and
423
00:27:14.420 --> 00:27:17.369
it's kind of like this, you
know, sentient thing. If you like.
424
00:27:17.690 --> 00:27:19.089
I'm going to stop short scenting.
I won't quite call it. I
425
00:27:19.130 --> 00:27:23.210
don't think Ali's advanced that far yet, right, but it's something that can
426
00:27:23.250 --> 00:27:26.410
help you with your job and it
makes sense. Let's say you're a roadside
427
00:27:26.490 --> 00:27:30.079
breakdown a system, right, you're
not going to keep up to speed with
428
00:27:30.160 --> 00:27:33.440
all the latest things that you need
to understand. That used to learn over
429
00:27:33.519 --> 00:27:37.000
experience as a mechanic or something.
So how do you do that? You
430
00:27:37.039 --> 00:27:40.440
want the schematics of the engine overlaid
perfect use case, right, and it
431
00:27:40.480 --> 00:27:42.240
doesn't have to be a big VR
set. That can just be at mobile
432
00:27:42.359 --> 00:27:45.109
phone with the new ar you know, and some of the things in the
433
00:27:45.150 --> 00:27:51.430
apple chips and that where they can
overlay and understand and the superimpose the schematics
434
00:27:51.470 --> 00:27:53.509
or the part you need to fix. I think that's where it makes sense.
435
00:27:53.950 --> 00:27:57.900
But then it's that line, the
meeting room ones interesting. I still
436
00:27:57.980 --> 00:28:00.140
think there's a lot of work we
need to do. Their based on what
437
00:28:00.220 --> 00:28:03.940
I said earlier right. But yeah, I think going back a little bit
438
00:28:03.980 --> 00:28:08.460
around machine learning, that's the thing
that I think it's really made decks to
439
00:28:08.539 --> 00:28:14.049
hold industry and Change, and also
around things like zero trust. Some of
440
00:28:14.089 --> 00:28:17.289
these concepts are around before, but
we didn't really have enough compute power to
441
00:28:17.369 --> 00:28:19.410
understand them. So, whether you
want to call it machine learning or whether
442
00:28:19.450 --> 00:28:22.650
you just want to say we've got
there's a lot more computer in the cloud
443
00:28:22.650 --> 00:28:25.690
that we can leverage now and check
a load of computer a problem and do
444
00:28:25.849 --> 00:28:27.599
some algorithms on it right, which
is kind of where we are really with
445
00:28:27.759 --> 00:28:32.519
machine learning. For we being totally
frank, you now can get some interesting
446
00:28:32.559 --> 00:28:36.640
numbers out and Statistics and some conclusions. You can really do that for you
447
00:28:36.759 --> 00:28:38.319
four years ago, and I think
that pass only going to get better and
448
00:28:38.400 --> 00:28:41.069
better. So I think the future
is we're going to we're going to add
449
00:28:41.150 --> 00:28:45.390
more and more insights. Now then
the question is, what do we do
450
00:28:45.509 --> 00:28:48.750
with those? Right, and that
becomes that sort of more philosophical type argument,
451
00:28:48.789 --> 00:28:52.710
I guess. But Yeah, I'm
pretty sure I do want to unplug
452
00:28:52.750 --> 00:28:55.710
from the Matrix at some point every
now and again. Andy, what I
453
00:28:55.859 --> 00:28:57.539
there is one new one coming out
that I want to plug into very soon.
454
00:28:59.460 --> 00:29:03.059
You're going to go full John Conner
like Andy. Is Important. I
455
00:29:03.220 --> 00:29:07.779
know Crom food. I have his
name right in the Terminator. John Conner
456
00:29:07.859 --> 00:29:10.730
Right. Yeah, and it come
with me if you want to live,
457
00:29:10.769 --> 00:29:15.049
if you really want to learn.
Yeah, said. Anyway, listens as
458
00:29:15.049 --> 00:29:18.849
it's been great to speak to you
both. Hope to have you both on
459
00:29:18.970 --> 00:29:22.569
it again, but if anyone needs
another hit from your insights sooner than that,
460
00:29:22.890 --> 00:29:25.359
check the show notes for a link
to the deck show, decks hub
461
00:29:25.440 --> 00:29:29.240
mother ship. What you can find
fantastic, original articles, but from both
462
00:29:29.319 --> 00:29:33.559
of these gentlemen and from many other
contributors to until then, we'll see you
463
00:29:33.599 --> 00:29:38.670
all in two weeks time. Thank
you very much. To make sure that
464
00:29:38.789 --> 00:29:42.950
you never miss an episode, subscribe
to the show in Apple Podcast, spotify,
465
00:29:44.309 --> 00:29:48.190
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466
00:29:48.230 --> 00:29:51.150
sure to leave a rating at the
show. Just have the number of stars
467
00:29:51.230 --> 00:29:53.980
you think the podcast deserves. If
you like to learn more about how next
468
00:29:55.019 --> 00:29:59.619
thing can help me improve your digital
employee experience, head over to next thingcom.
469
00:30:00.099 --> 00:30:02.339
Thank you so much for listening.
Until next time.
