How to Lead Without Authority: A Conversation with Scott Mautz (Part One)

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Look at this email, what does it mean?
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Communication is the imparting or exchanging of information or news.
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The single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that
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it has taken place.
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Conversation is the oral exchange of sentiments, observations, opinions, or ideas.
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Forbes Books Radio presents the Conversation with Clinton and Pageant.
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Today's guest has spent his career helping leaders answer a
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question that almost everyone in business has to deal with,
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the some point, how do you lead when you're not
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fully in charge? Scott Mots is a former senior executive
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at Procter and Gamble, where he successfully ran several not
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just one, but several of the company's largest multi billion
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dollar businesses. That's billion with a B, folks. He's an
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award winning and best selling author, a faculty member to
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the Indiana University's Kelly School of Business for exec ED,
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and a popular LinkedIn Learning instructor whose courses have been
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taken more than one point five million times. He's also
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the founder of Profound Performance, where he helps organizations ignite
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sustained peak performance, deeper employee engagement, motivation, and inspiration. Scott
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is the author of several books, including Make it matter,
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find the fire the mentally strong leader, and the book
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will be discussed in today. Leading from the Middle, a
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playbook for managers or influence up down and across the organization.
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Very few people have complete authority. Most of us are
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leading with the boss above us, peers beside us, and
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teams counting on us. That means leadership is less about
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title and more about influence, conversation, collaboration, and the ability
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to get things done through others. That's exactly where we're
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going to be sporn today, Scott, Welcome to the Conversation.
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Oh great, great to be here, Clint. That that guy
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sounds pretty interesting. I can't wait to meet him. I'm
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happy to be here. The show is aptly named The
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Conversation because you're very good at making it just that.
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So I'm happy to be here at Clinton.
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Thank you so much. So I know you said you
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listened to some of the episodes, and you know that
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I started all these off with a question. And I
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think everybody comes on this show as a superhero, certainly
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of mine, and all superheroes have an origin story, So
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give me yours.
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Yeah, mine's pretty straightforward. So you know, I grew up
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in corporate America. Probably, like a lot of your listeners, did,
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I spent you know, twenty five years at Procter and
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Gamble kind of moving my way through the organization as
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I went, and I would say, Clint, you know, probably,
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you know, about year twenty I started looking around and
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noticing that what I was really most passionate about wasn't
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just leading you know, businesses, it was leading the organization.
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And you know, it kind of dawned on me at
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that point in time that the best version of me
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came out when I was teaching, when I was researching,
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when I was writing, when I was talking about leadership,
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you know, as we'll get into, you know, when I
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was studying how people around me, how the middle managers
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can thrive in difficult situations, and so, you know, while
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I loved my time in corporate, I soon realized that,
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you know, what I really wanted to do was to
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get out and influence others with the spoken and the
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written word, to have a bigger, more profound differences. The
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name of my company profound Performance. And once I made
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that decision, it was a pretty straightforward to you and
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people often ask me, as part of my organ story,
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will Scott, What made you decide to leave the healthy confines?
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And then you know the comfortableness of corporate to go
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out on your own and do this. And you know,
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I have like a one question that I asked myself
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as part of my urgent story. I remember very clearly
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Clinton looking back and asking myself, Okay, you know the
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old should I stay or should I go? Now? If
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you step back and look at it, how can I
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make more of an impact? And the amount of time
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that I have left on this planet? Could I make
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more of an impact influencing you know, the people that
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work for me in the organization I was leading at
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the time in corporate or could I you know, by
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taking a chance, betting on myself and reaching out to
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a global black while to try to spread what I
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have learned and all the research that I engage in
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to a broader audience. And once I put it that
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way and I set aside all the other things and
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all the other noise, keep very clear what I want
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to do. So that's that's the essetce of my origin story.
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Well, it sounds like you've been successful, because if I remember,
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it's like over one and a half million people that
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take in your course on LinkedIn, So you've impacted at
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least that many people.
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Yeah, yeah, we're we're at three million now in counting,
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so it's growing fast. And it's only because you know,
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I don't credit the author of the courses on LinkedIn learning.
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I credit the nature of the of the courses themselves,
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the subject matter that I teach in, which is leadership
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and self leadership. Just how hungry people are for more help,
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especially in a controlled self learned you know, self learning environment.
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Probably why your podcast is so popular, Clint right. People
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need little nuggets are practically usable insight and wisdom because
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jobs today are hard enough in the ever changing environment
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we all work in.
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So yeah, no doubt, it's a lot of change going on,
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so we got to get on top of that. Now,
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you open the book with a I'm a big scuba diver,
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so this jump down and appeal to me right away.
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You open the book with the image of a yellow
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fish in the middle of an aquarium, and I love
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being in those aquariums called and you know, on the
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coral reef. But he says, your surrounded, watched and under
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pressure from all sides. So why did that image what
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did that image capture for you.
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Yeah, I was at a dinner one night, a corporate dinner,
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and behind you is a real fancy restaurant. For those
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of you that worked in corporate life, maybe you've been
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at these dinners where you're sitting with counterparts at an
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expensive dinner that you're very happy you're not paying for.
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And there was a big aquarium, one of those big
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wall aquariums. It was a nice fish restaurant, and I
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remember seeing this one particular fish swimming around in the middle,
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and I remember thinking, you know, that's all I felt
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at the times. You know, as a middle manager, I
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had pressure all around me. I felt like I was,
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you know, swimming in a fish bowl where everybody could
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watch my move from every angle, judging everything I did.
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It wasn't really a lot of room for error. I
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felt kind of surrounded but alone at the same time,
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like that one fish I saw swimming in the aquarium,
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and it just it seemed like the perfect metaphor for
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me at the time that you know, here's this fish
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trying to get by, trying to go its own way,
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with its own agenda, in the middle of this massive aquarium,
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surrounded but alone. And that's how I felt, and I
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remember that being kind of a turning point for me,
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where I had already been starting to study the plight
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of the middle manager. And it was at that point
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that I knew I was going to write a book
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about it, because I already had about ten years of
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research behind me and fifteen years of experience behind me.
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And I said at that point that you know, that
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little fish is going to turn into the book that
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you held up here today, Leading from the Middle. So
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and it did.
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But the color should have been yellow to match the fish.
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I don't know.
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Yeah, you're right, And I blew that one. I blew
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that one. That's exactly right.
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So one study found that replacing a poor metal manager
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with a good one booster productivity by twelve percent, which
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was even more than if you added another team member.
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That's a politic compelling case that the importance of middle management,
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despite the bad rep they have.
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Yeah, that's that's exactly right. And you know other research
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shows I talked about in the book clet that you know,
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in the average organization, twenty five percent of the variation
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and revenue can be associated to a middle manager, which
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is three times that of a person whose only role
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in the job is to innovate. And another study, a
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five year study, showed that replacing just a poor middle
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manager within just an average middle manager, we would you know,
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reduce dramatically the amount of turnover that you could see
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in a company. And I have all kinds of statistics
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like this that show that the value of the middle
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manager cannot be underestimated. It just simply cannot be underestimated.
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And you know what's interesting, Clint, is the term middle
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manager has kind of fallen under the lens of kind
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of a social disdain. You know, when you have shows
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like The Office, movies like The Office, Space, cartoons like Philbert,
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it's easy to make fun of and it cuts the
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term middle management into a not positive light. But in
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the Plunk Leading from the middle, I really try to
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change that conversation. And you know, and I start with
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the definition that, first of all, a middle manager is
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anybody anybody who has to lead up, down, and across
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the organization in order to do that or job. Well,
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I mean that's you, click, that's me, that's your listeners. Yes,
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that's even CEOs because guess what, Clint, they have to
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manage up to their board. And what's so unique about
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that is it. It's what makes middle manager roles the
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most challenging in all of leadership because you are at
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the horizontal and vertical intersection of the information and activity
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flow in your organization and you have to lead in
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every direction to do your job well. It creates unique
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dynamics which we'll talk about more as we get into this,
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that are unlike any other in the field of leadership.
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That requires special, specific study of it. And that's what
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I've been doing over the last three decades, studying that
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unique challenge.
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And you say that the middle is messy.
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Yeah, yeah, it is, and it's filled with a lot
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of a lot of stress, more so than many other jobs.
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You know. In fact, if I make I relate to
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you a short story to your question. Given the nature
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of what I do for a living, you know, I
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am a researcher at heart, and I'm always researching what
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I do. I have enough things that I could write,
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you know, publish original kind of scholarly articles where you know,
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I've published over a thousand written articles. I'm always researching
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and the nature of my work brought me in contact
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with some research from the Universities of Manchester, Liverpool where
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they researchers were studying the behavior of monkeys, packs of
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monkeys to kind of understand, you know, what's their social hierarchy,
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what's their structure, if you will, and to be able
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to understand that. They studied over six hundred different monkeys,
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and they would study their behaviors. They would you know,
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record when they would engage in a nurturing behavior like
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grooming or hugging, and aggressive behaviors like chasing or slapping
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or and you know, even in kind of you know,
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sweet and subtle behaviors or submissive behaviors when they would
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retreat and fear from one another. And they would map
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this all out to try to understand what the hierarchy
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of the monkey, you know kind of world was. And
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then they took kind of bodily samples of all the
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monkeys to determine and measure their stress hormones. And what
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they discovered was that the monkeys that were the most
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stressed physically and emotionally were the monkeys that in the
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hierarchy in the monkey world were the ones right in
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the center, not the ones at the top they had
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to run a monkey back, not the young guns who
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are still trying to find their way in the pack,
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and that were treated quite aggrestibly by their parents. But
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the monkeys in the middle of the organization. And what's
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so interesting about that is meanwhile, the monkey piece dim
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or cousin the human being, the same is true. A
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study of over three hundred thousand middle managers showed that
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the bottom five percent in an organization, the bottom five
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percent in terms of engage, engagedness if you will, or
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engagement and happiness, is not people that have four performance reviews.
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It's not people that are new to the company and
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they don't know what they're doing in their role. It's
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actually the bottom five percent is actually people that have
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good performance ratings. They just happen to be in middle
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management positions. It is messy in the middle. It is stressful,
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it is emotional, and there's a lot of unique things
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that create the unique situation you know that makes it
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so so messy. If you want, I can go more
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into that about specifically why it's so message. Please want
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to go there next?
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Yeah please?
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Yeah? So yeah. So in the book, you know I've interviewed.
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At the time I wrote the book, Clint interviewed over
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three thousand middle managers and now it's more to triple
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that as I'm continued by research going forward and to
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try to find out why is the middle so messy?
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As you asked nos, why is that? And I found
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that it really has to do with the scope of
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their job. And I use the scope as an acronym
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in the book as well, scope because it stands for
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the unique challenges of the middle manager. For first, I'll
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name what SCOPE stands for, and I'll talk about it
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very briefly. Scope means the sas self identity problems. Middle
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miniature jobs are so hard because of self identity. We
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wear so many hats all the time, switching back and forth.
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What's really our job? It's very, very stressful. And I'll
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come back to that one conflict, right, there's tons of
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conflict in the middle. You have to battle with conflicting agendas,
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conflicting personalities, conflicting budgets. People, your boss condoles you, your
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employees won't do what you say, your peers don't want
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to collaborate. The ohs as for omnipotens. People in the
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middle are expected to know everything, while the bosses get
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a pass because they're too high up, and the new
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people get a path because they're too new. The people
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in the middle are expected to be omnipotent. Then the
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p and the eod scope or the physical is the
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physical problems that happen and in the emotional stress that
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can happen, because being in the middle can feel isolated,
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You can feel like you're not really part of anyone circle.
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So I want to go back to the self identity.
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Think for just a second, client. I think it's important
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because the biggest reason that you know middle management is
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so what I'll call you know messy is because of
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micro transitions that happen in the middle manager role. Middle
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managers wear a thousand different hats. You have to be
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a translator, you have to be a strategist, you have
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to be an executioner, you have to be a listener,
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you have to have compassion, you have to hold accountability,
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and you switch between these hats all day long. And
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neurosciences show that these micro transitions that happen, they happen
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raise a fast But the problem is, in one moment,
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you could be feeling high autonomy with a hat that
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you're wearing, you can feel in control of everything, and
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then just like that, you switch hats into a role
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where you feel a lack of responsibility, you feel you
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have no authority, you feel you're not supported, and it's
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all exacerbated if you're in a role that's poorly defined
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with unclear expectations, and if you're you're uncertain about your
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decision space, and it adds up to confusion, frustration, and exhaustion.
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And what I talk about in the book, you Know,
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is I go through scope and I talk about what
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makes the mess the middle so messy, because I really
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like to talk about it's first of all, understanding why
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it's such a unique problem to lead from the middle.
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And I give a lot of different solutions for how
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to overcome it. And I'll give you just a few
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examples that take a breath so you can ask your
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next question. I get very passionate about this.
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I love it. Please go ahead.
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Yeah. Yeah. One of the things we talk about is
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some of the best middle managers, you know, they understand scope,
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self identity conflict. I'm omnipotent, it's expectedly. There's physical stress,
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there's emotional stress. One of the big things that helps
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you through that is to reframe how you think of
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the middle manager position in general. So we fought. We
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heard some brilliant reframes of some of the most well
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thought of mindal managers. In other words, their bosses said
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that as a middle manager on the rise, keep an
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eye on them, And we interviewed them and fought some
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really interesting ways that they reframed the entire way they
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looked at their jobs. So, for example, we are one
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one middle manager that said, I don't look at the
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one hundred different jobs as I have to do as segregate.
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They're all integrated into one job that I'm uniquely suited
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to do really well, and I value that variety. We
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had another reframe that said, I look at my job
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as a middle manager. My job is to think like
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an engineer, but to feel like an artist at least.
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Thought that was not only poetic, but very accurate, because
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the best some middle managers think of themselves as they
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have to be process oriented. You're you know, you're obviously
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you're you're an expert in the you know, in the area,
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and this is a lot of the kind of the
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getting things to happen in project management claim. So you're
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very familiar with this mindset of you have to have
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an engineer mindseter plan produce drive, hold people accountable, get
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things through mechanically. But you also have to be able
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to feel like an artist, to step back and have
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empathy for all of those around you, to help people
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through their emotion. We heard a reframing from a middle
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manager that talked about they look at themselves as the
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long and short term flame on the business. Their job
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is to work on the business and in the business,
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not just to get caught up in the systems, but
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to stick their head up above the processes and systems
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once in a while and work on the business to
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make it better. One more reframe one I really love that.
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One middle manager said, Look, I don't look like I'm
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I don't feel like I'm stuck in the middle. I
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have a chance to lead it every direction. I have
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a chance to be both a lighthouse and a beacon.
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I could be a lighthouse to everyone around me, signaling danger,
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keeping people off of the rocks. And I could be
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a beacon. I can draw people to possibility, to the
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goals in the organization, to all the things we're trying
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to accomplish. A long answer to MESSI middle what it
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boils out to. There's a lot of unique problems but
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there's unique solutions that I offer too in the book
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Leading from the.
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Middle, absolutely, and I think it's important because the world
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that I live in with project teams, you know, you
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are the If you're the project manager, you are that
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middle manager because you're managing the team who don't report
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to you, right, it's a matrix organization. You don't have
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no control over them. And then you're trying to report
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up to the customer to make sure they're still happy,
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and you're that buffer in between. And I call it
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people in process. You have to have the people skills,
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which you just described. Is we kind of stepping back
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having the empathy and kind of being the artist, but
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you have to have the process skills to get stuff done.
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That's right, That's exactly right.
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No, I thought your Lego example was so good. My
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son loves Lego, so they're always in top of my mind.
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But you have the Lego directives from middle managers and
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it was just let me read a cup of them.
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So lead but stay in the background, build pose relationships,
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but keep distance. Be visionary, but keep your feet on
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the ground. So why is the middle cell full of contradictions?
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I mean, that's almost impossible to all those things.
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Yeah. Yeah, And and you're talking Clint about a letter,
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an internal letter that a legal employee shared with me
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from a long time ago, where the employees were asked
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to that here's your list of directives, and so many
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of them are so contradictory because you have so many
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constituents when you're a middle manager, you know, you know,
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remember when I was talking about the micro transitions, yea,
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the hats that we switch that makes it so exhausting.
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Sometimes you have to change elevations all within the same meeting.
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And I don't know this has ever happened to you.
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Where you're leading your the people, you're the manager of
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your team, you're leading your people. You have some peers
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of the group, and so you're in kind of authoritative
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mode with your peers. You're whether you're the people that
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report you. You're in collaborative mode with your peers, and
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then maybe your boss drops in on the meeting and
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you have to all of a sudden switch gears to
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be more deferential mode. And these elevation changes can happen
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sometimes not only throughout the day, but sometimes within a meeting,
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where you have to kind of think differently about how
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you want to act with a boss, with a peer,
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you know, with people that reports you, and it's exhausting
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and it creates a lot of contradiction. The things you
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have to do to lead off to your boss might
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not be the right things you have to uttle you
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down to your people when you're in the center. So
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much conflict in the middle. There's always conflicting agendas, conflicting personalities,
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you know, conflicting budgets, conflicting roles, conflicting agendas. It's it's
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a hotbed for conflict and for contradiction. And the best
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middle managers know that and take pride in it and
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know that it takes a special person to be able
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to manage through that kind of conflict. And to look
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at that job is integrated into one job, not segment
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into it one hundred different jobs.
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You know. Another study you mentioned in the book showed
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that eighty percent of strategic projects initiated by top management failed,
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while eighty percent of those initiated by middle management succeeded.
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So clearly, people in the middle can make a difference.
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Why are we able to have such an outsized impact
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on execution?
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Yeah, think about that for a second. I think that's
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worth repeating, Clint, I just want your listener to kind
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of take that in. Eighty percent of initiatives initiated by
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upper management failed, eighty percent initiated by the people below
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that were successful. And it's the same reason why I
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included an entire chapter in the book, a Leading from
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the Medal on leading change and another kind of path
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of Expertiseul You're you're a project management expert. I'm a
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leadership in self leadustry leadership expert, and I'm also a
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change management expert. And you know, in our studies, we've
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seen it over and over again in our research that
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the middle manager is at the best position in an
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organization to lead change because, first of all, they're closest
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to the goals of the organization in terms of having
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to interpret them when they get passed down from uppermatic.
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They understand what the organization needs. They're the ones that
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have to interpret things from above. But they're also still
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close enough to the front lines the every day to
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be close enough to the customers and consumers to know
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what are the ground up strategies that are required and
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how do we marry all those together. So I think
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that's very telling when the research shows the closer you
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are to the center, not to the top or to
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the bottom, the more effective the innovations are that roll
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out depending on who has led them. And I think
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it's because of the mixture of access you have to
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both the front line into the strategies that get passed
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on from above.
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Now being negative, I can say that if the people
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at the bottom say, well, see that just proves the
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people up above me don't know what they're doing.
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Yeah, I suppose, I suppose you could do that, But
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you know, I think it's also just a measure of
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then you have to ask yourself. But in whise organizations, sure,
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eighty percent of the things from initiated by a per
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management failed, but smart companies that's eighty percent of a
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pretty small number of clip Yeah, of course they learn
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over time that Okay, we're going to let the people
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on the front line, we're going to set broad strategic vision.
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We're going to let the people below us create the
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initiatives required to carry out that.
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Absolutely, you set the objectives at the top level, and
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then the team is the one who's figures out the
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scope and executes it. Make sure we meet the objective
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that's right. Yeah, I was just being facetious when I
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said that, because I can hear my team say it
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all the time.
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They don't know what they're doing, that's right. That's right.
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So we're almost kind of talking about the Peter principle.
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I know most people know what the Peter principle is,
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but I had never heard of the Carosec model. What
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is that? If I even pronounce it right? What is that?
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And why is it especially relevant to people who leave
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in the middle.
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Yeah? Yeah, the best way I think the script CARESEC
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model is quite simply that we you know, stress is
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absolutely maximized in conditions where you have tons of kind
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of you know, responsibility and expectations placed on you, but
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you have very little authority or control over the ability
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to make decisions in that window. And it's kind of
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like to call it the caresect effect in it for
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any of the readers that out there have been in
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that situation where you know, you're in a high pressure situation,
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you're expected to deliver, right, stress is high, and yet
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you don't really have the decision making ability to control
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your environment to do the things you're being asked to do.
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And it's very relevant for middle managers, because that's a
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lot oftentimes what we'll find ourselves in, right clinton will
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be in a situation where as middle managers, the people
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above us aren't delegating down to us and giving us
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enough authority to do the jobs that we have to do.
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And you know what the CARESECE model calls for is
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to kind of reverse that condition where instead of being
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in a situation where you're stresses through the roof because
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you have the fection and the pressure, but you don't
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have the decision making authority, you want to flip that
480
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around it. It's really important to be bold and actually
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sit down with your manager and ask for an agreement
482
00:24:11.920 --> 00:24:15.440
for autonomy, which is where you spell out the scope
483
00:24:15.480 --> 00:24:18.960
of Okay, let's draw a line on what you need
484
00:24:19.000 --> 00:24:21.440
to make decisions on and what I can make decisions on.
485
00:24:21.839 --> 00:24:23.880
Where you need to be informed of a decision that
486
00:24:23.920 --> 00:24:27.200
I'm going to make, and where I have freedom to
487
00:24:27.319 --> 00:24:30.039
choose where you want to consult and where I don't
488
00:24:30.079 --> 00:24:33.000
need to consult you at all. And what we've found
489
00:24:33.039 --> 00:24:36.039
in our research is the care sect effect is dissipated
490
00:24:36.279 --> 00:24:40.400
when it becomes clearer in certain situations, what decision making
491
00:24:40.480 --> 00:24:45.240
authority you really really have, and it produces this wonderful
492
00:24:45.599 --> 00:24:49.039
virtuous cycle, Clint, where not only do people tend to
493
00:24:49.039 --> 00:24:52.279
get more autonomy once they understand and clarify with their
494
00:24:52.319 --> 00:24:55.240
boss what are the boundaries, but then they also feel
495
00:24:55.279 --> 00:24:57.680
more like when I'm really feeling the stress and I
496
00:24:57.799 --> 00:25:00.799
know I don't have decision making authority, I've talked about
497
00:25:00.799 --> 00:25:03.119
this with my boss, I go to him or or
498
00:25:03.240 --> 00:25:06.759
or them and say, Okay, look, we talked about this.
499
00:25:06.839 --> 00:25:08.480
I don't have the right to make the decision here,
500
00:25:08.559 --> 00:25:10.319
but the pressure's on me. How do you want to
501
00:25:10.319 --> 00:25:14.359
handle it? So it becomes clear, uh, in situations like that.
502
00:25:14.440 --> 00:25:16.799
But yeah, the caresect effect, the carosect model, it's very
503
00:25:16.880 --> 00:25:18.119
very real for middle managers.
504
00:25:18.839 --> 00:25:20.400
Now, you say, one of the rules of manager in
505
00:25:20.400 --> 00:25:23.039
the middle has to play is out of entrepreneur. I
506
00:25:23.079 --> 00:25:23.559
get that right.
507
00:25:23.599 --> 00:25:25.319
Yes, here, you got it right.
508
00:25:25.559 --> 00:25:27.880
And can you explain what that means and how do
509
00:25:27.920 --> 00:25:30.240
you make sure you're not being perceived as going rogue?
510
00:25:30.279 --> 00:25:32.720
Because when I was reading that, that's what you can
511
00:25:32.759 --> 00:25:34.079
be extracized pretty quick.
512
00:25:35.319 --> 00:25:39.519
Yeah, it's entrepreneur instead of entrepreneur. And some of the
513
00:25:39.519 --> 00:25:41.400
best mindal managers, you know, I talk in the book
514
00:25:41.440 --> 00:25:43.319
about all the variety of roles, and I have a
515
00:25:43.319 --> 00:25:46.480
section called rock your Roles twenty One of the most
516
00:25:46.519 --> 00:25:48.880
common roles that a middle manager has to play. One
517
00:25:48.880 --> 00:25:52.319
of them is entrepreneur, where you're required to kind of
518
00:25:52.559 --> 00:25:55.640
innovate within your own company. Because again, remember what we
519
00:25:55.640 --> 00:25:58.279
said earlier. Middle managers are at the front lines with
520
00:25:58.960 --> 00:26:01.160
close to the front lines the consumers and their customers,
521
00:26:01.200 --> 00:26:04.000
and they have the best understanding of where innovation has
522
00:26:04.039 --> 00:26:06.160
to happen. And you know, the key is to your
523
00:26:06.200 --> 00:26:09.039
point so that you don't you don't seem like, you know,
524
00:26:09.119 --> 00:26:13.519
a rogue. What we've seen, Clint, is actually the opposite problem.
525
00:26:13.799 --> 00:26:16.319
If you know, if a mineral manager is out there
526
00:26:16.440 --> 00:26:20.119
trying to innovate, but communicates and follows the rules and
527
00:26:20.160 --> 00:26:22.400
the policies, and they get clear on the rules of
528
00:26:22.519 --> 00:26:25.880
risk taking with their boss, what constitutes a good risk,
529
00:26:25.920 --> 00:26:29.359
what constitutes a bad risk, that that's usually not the problem,
530
00:26:29.440 --> 00:26:31.799
believe it or not, Clint. It's the other side that's
531
00:26:31.839 --> 00:26:36.680
the problem where middle managers want to be entrepreneurs, but
532
00:26:36.799 --> 00:26:40.200
what they're pushing for it's too close to the status quo.
533
00:26:41.079 --> 00:26:43.920
They're not pushing the envelope enough. They're going for solutions
534
00:26:43.920 --> 00:26:47.960
that are two to three degrees removed from situations and
535
00:26:48.000 --> 00:26:51.079
solutions that are already in place. So, you know, I
536
00:26:51.160 --> 00:26:53.440
give kind of advice for every role that the manager
537
00:26:53.480 --> 00:26:55.359
has to play, the middle manager has to play in
538
00:26:55.400 --> 00:26:57.240
the book leading for the middle, And you know, the
539
00:26:57.279 --> 00:27:01.559
advice I give on the entrepreneurs side is not be careful.
540
00:27:01.920 --> 00:27:04.279
You don't want to be seen as rogue. It's actually
541
00:27:04.359 --> 00:27:07.119
the opposite. Make sure that you're aggressive enough that what
542
00:27:07.200 --> 00:27:11.519
you're pushing isn't so close to what's already exists today.
543
00:27:11.599 --> 00:27:14.319
Is a solution as long as you're doing it within
544
00:27:14.359 --> 00:27:16.200
the scope and you understand what the rules of risk
545
00:27:16.240 --> 00:27:17.480
taking are in your organization.
546
00:27:18.160 --> 00:27:19.759
So you're looking for more of a step change and
547
00:27:19.799 --> 00:27:20.640
just the one off.
548
00:27:21.839 --> 00:27:25.559
Yes, I think the best middle managers tend to do that. Now,
549
00:27:25.799 --> 00:27:29.079
not that there's not a time client for incrementalism, I'm
550
00:27:29.079 --> 00:27:32.799
not saying that at all, But entrepreneur is not a
551
00:27:32.920 --> 00:27:36.680
term that normally is associated with incrementalism. It's more innovation
552
00:27:36.799 --> 00:27:38.279
than incrementalism.
553
00:27:38.680 --> 00:27:42.200
Another term you use is others oriented leadership. So can
554
00:27:42.240 --> 00:27:43.960
we explain what that is and how that might be
555
00:27:43.960 --> 00:27:45.319
different than servant leadership?
556
00:27:46.000 --> 00:27:48.480
Yeah, you know, I talk about the best model for
557
00:27:48.599 --> 00:27:51.559
leadership for the middle managers is what I call others oriented,
558
00:27:51.720 --> 00:27:53.920
and it's exactly what it sounds like. It means that
559
00:27:53.960 --> 00:27:56.240
you take the focus off yourself, because remember you're in
560
00:27:56.240 --> 00:27:59.519
the middle leading in three hundred and sixty degrees. The
561
00:27:59.519 --> 00:28:03.039
more that you be oriented about you know, this job
562
00:28:03.119 --> 00:28:07.119
is no longer about me. It's about helping and moving
563
00:28:07.119 --> 00:28:10.240
things forward for all those around me. It is now
564
00:28:10.720 --> 00:28:14.960
about the ecosystem. It's not about the ego system. That's
565
00:28:15.000 --> 00:28:18.359
the heart of others oriented leadership and understanding that it's
566
00:28:18.359 --> 00:28:20.599
really no longer about you, it's about making everything around
567
00:28:20.599 --> 00:28:22.599
you work. Now. There's an important distinction I make though,
568
00:28:22.640 --> 00:28:25.559
because some people would say, well, Scott, that's called servant leadership,
569
00:28:26.079 --> 00:28:30.519
but it's others oriented. Is leadership is in the same
570
00:28:30.640 --> 00:28:33.759
tree as servant leadership, and it's a different branch. And
571
00:28:33.839 --> 00:28:35.920
I talk about this in the book. But part of
572
00:28:35.960 --> 00:28:38.799
the problem with servant leadership is that servant leaders can
573
00:28:38.839 --> 00:28:45.039
sometimes lose their authoritative edge and their desire to rightfully
574
00:28:45.480 --> 00:28:50.000
serve the organization, to help the organization move forward, to
575
00:28:50.000 --> 00:28:52.599
help people become better versus of themselves, to stay in
576
00:28:52.599 --> 00:28:57.079
the background. They forget at times that okay, but your
577
00:28:57.160 --> 00:29:00.359
job is to serve and to lead. There are times
578
00:29:00.720 --> 00:29:03.839
when your management team wants to see you at the forefront.
579
00:29:04.200 --> 00:29:05.960
They don't want to see you at the background propping
580
00:29:06.000 --> 00:29:09.160
your people up. There are times when your bosses want
581
00:29:09.200 --> 00:29:12.599
to know that you know. They want to know that
582
00:29:12.640 --> 00:29:14.759
you have the answer. They want to know that you're
583
00:29:14.759 --> 00:29:17.839
in the front leading, And sometimes with servant leaders, they
584
00:29:17.880 --> 00:29:21.680
could they can lose their authoritativeness in a very understandable
585
00:29:21.720 --> 00:29:26.839
desire to put the organization first. And the best others
586
00:29:26.880 --> 00:29:29.440
oriented leaders know when it's time to step up and
587
00:29:29.480 --> 00:29:31.200
lead from the front and when it's time to lead
588
00:29:31.200 --> 00:29:34.079
from behind and put their people on a pedestal. The
589
00:29:34.119 --> 00:29:37.559
best or others oriented leaders claim they know that sometimes
590
00:29:37.559 --> 00:29:40.319
they have to make decisions that might not feel like
591
00:29:40.400 --> 00:29:43.079
it's in the best service of the people, but it's
592
00:29:43.240 --> 00:29:47.440
needed to deliver the organization's goals. And others oriented leaders
593
00:29:47.559 --> 00:29:50.319
get that right. They know what they have to give,
594
00:29:50.720 --> 00:29:53.480
what they have to give up, what to give it
595
00:29:53.759 --> 00:29:56.240
even with that job, and I talk about that a
596
00:29:56.279 --> 00:29:57.440
lot in the book Leading from the Bill.
597
00:29:57.880 --> 00:30:01.359
Yeah, you have your compass, remember your four quadrants.
598
00:30:01.440 --> 00:30:02.880
So yeah, that's right. Yeah.
599
00:30:03.480 --> 00:30:05.599
Now you believe affirmation is one of the most powerful
600
00:30:05.599 --> 00:30:08.759
forces on earth. Why and how should leaders use it?
601
00:30:09.640 --> 00:30:13.200
Yeah? I think let's put it this way, Clinton, have
602
00:30:13.279 --> 00:30:15.519
you ever been in a role working for a manager
603
00:30:16.880 --> 00:30:21.480
who you struggled to get affirmation? You wanted to know
604
00:30:21.559 --> 00:30:24.880
a does he or here they know what I'm doing,
605
00:30:24.920 --> 00:30:27.519
how I'm spending my time? Do they understand my value?
606
00:30:28.200 --> 00:30:30.279
If you've ever been in a role where you didn't
607
00:30:30.279 --> 00:30:34.640
feel affirmed, where you didn't feel addressed, where you didn't
608
00:30:34.640 --> 00:30:38.640
feel recognized, it's devastating. And let me ask Let me
609
00:30:38.680 --> 00:30:40.880
ask you first, have you ever experienced that before?
610
00:30:41.480 --> 00:30:43.319
Of course, I think everybody has been part of an
611
00:30:43.359 --> 00:30:46.359
organization has.
612
00:30:45.640 --> 00:30:48.240
And describe for me how that felt for you, and
613
00:30:48.240 --> 00:30:49.799
then I'll finish out answering your question.
614
00:30:50.440 --> 00:30:53.559
It feels like what I'm doing isn't valued, isn't seen
615
00:30:53.599 --> 00:30:56.839
as is adding value to the organization. Then you feel
616
00:30:56.880 --> 00:30:58.359
like you're not respected.
617
00:30:59.240 --> 00:31:01.759
And that's really what balls down too Rich there isn't it, Quinn.
618
00:31:01.839 --> 00:31:04.599
If you're one of your jobs in the to be,
619
00:31:04.720 --> 00:31:06.279
you know, in the middle is to be kind of
620
00:31:06.279 --> 00:31:10.279
an epicenter of encouragement for the entire organization. An episode
621
00:31:10.400 --> 00:31:13.640
because you're at the middle and you have the job.
622
00:31:13.720 --> 00:31:16.200
You have the ability to affirm and to you know,
623
00:31:16.279 --> 00:31:20.759
to help validate and help other people understand the value
624
00:31:20.799 --> 00:31:23.039
they bring to the organization. And you can do that
625
00:31:23.079 --> 00:31:25.079
more than anyone else because remember you're in the center
626
00:31:25.119 --> 00:31:27.480
of it all. You have the chip. Yes, that includes
627
00:31:27.519 --> 00:31:31.200
even affirming the boss's value and the contributions they're making
628
00:31:31.279 --> 00:31:34.279
your peers, people below you. So the role of affirmation
629
00:31:34.359 --> 00:31:35.440
is essential for the middleman.
630
00:31:36.599 --> 00:31:38.759
I love it. Affirmations are good. Although every time I
631
00:31:38.759 --> 00:31:40.599
think about affirmations, I think at the guy for Saturday
632
00:31:40.680 --> 00:31:41.519
Night lab in front of the.
633
00:31:41.440 --> 00:31:46.559
Moon, Jack Handy. Yeah. Yeah, deep thoughts by Jack Candy.
634
00:31:46.720 --> 00:31:48.519
Yeah that's right.
635
00:31:48.680 --> 00:31:51.119
Gosh darn it, I am somebody or whatever he says.
636
00:31:52.039 --> 00:31:53.759
Yeah, people like me.
637
00:31:54.119 --> 00:31:57.359
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. That's the one that includes Part one
638
00:31:57.359 --> 00:31:59.960
of my conversation with Scott Mott's former procter and Game,
639
00:32:00.200 --> 00:32:04.039
senior executive faculty member at Indiana University and best selling
640
00:32:04.039 --> 00:32:06.599
author of multiple books, including Leading from the Middle.
641
00:32:07.279 --> 00:32:07.680
Coming up.
642
00:32:07.720 --> 00:32:10.079
In part two, Scott gives advice to leaders and managers
643
00:32:10.079 --> 00:32:11.200
who are chasing approval.
644
00:32:11.720 --> 00:32:13.960
It's a trap. You know, you can fall into that
645
00:32:14.000 --> 00:32:16.400
trap because here you are, okay, I'm in the middle.
646
00:32:16.960 --> 00:32:18.640
I got to lead in all directions. I got to
647
00:32:18.680 --> 00:32:20.759
lead up, down and across. And you know, I can't
648
00:32:20.799 --> 00:32:23.319
have anybody not liking me, you know, I just I
649
00:32:23.319 --> 00:32:26.319
can't do that. And you know, Bob Sutton is a
650
00:32:26.359 --> 00:32:29.480
professor from Stanford, often often talks about you know, no, no, no,
651
00:32:29.519 --> 00:32:31.440
your job is to have ninety percent of people like you,
652
00:32:31.839 --> 00:32:33.680
and if you don't, if you don't have ten percent
653
00:32:33.720 --> 00:32:36.400
people not liking you, you're not doing your job. No.
654
00:32:37.119 --> 00:32:40.559
I often like to say, uh, you know, politicians never
655
00:32:40.680 --> 00:32:43.240
get one hundred percent of the vote, not even closer.
656
00:32:43.319 --> 00:32:46.359
Nor will you. You know, you leave the you know, the
657
00:32:46.640 --> 00:32:50.240
politics for the politicians. You just focus on being a
658
00:32:50.240 --> 00:32:54.519
good human being whose values are clear. You consistently act
659
00:32:54.559 --> 00:32:58.559
with those values. And you know, sometimes look, man, just
660
00:32:58.799 --> 00:33:02.000
the universe has a lot of different chemical compositions. Sometimes
661
00:33:02.039 --> 00:33:04.640
you're gonna get oil and water mixed. Not everybody's gonna
662
00:33:04.680 --> 00:33:08.319
like you all the time. The pursuit of that is exhausting.
663
00:33:08.440 --> 00:33:12.599
It's a never ending empty chase to always get approval
664
00:33:12.680 --> 00:33:15.640
and to be liked by everyone. And I often tell people,
665
00:33:15.680 --> 00:33:17.599
you know, Clint, people will say, hey, what's the single
666
00:33:17.599 --> 00:33:19.720
best piece of advice you can give to a young manager.
667
00:33:20.240 --> 00:33:25.200
I often say it's, hey, look, chase authenticity. Stop chasing approvement.
668
00:33:26.039 --> 00:33:28.599
It's an empty victory at best when you get it,
669
00:33:29.240 --> 00:33:31.680
and it's elusive and soul crushing at the worst.
670
00:33:32.559 --> 00:33:35.799
Thanks for listening to the Conversation. To find out more
671
00:33:35.839 --> 00:33:40.440
about Clint, go to clintonmpaget dot com and pick up
672
00:33:40.480 --> 00:33:45.200
Clint's book How Teams Triumph Managing by Commitments at Amazon.
673
00:33:45.839 --> 00:33:50.240
The Conversation with Clinton M. Paget is a production of
674
00:33:50.400 --> 00:33:51.200
Forbes Books.
675
00:34:00.039 --> 00:34:00.079
He