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Welcome to the commons on the
Forward Ed Network.
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This is Modern Grading Reform,
a miniseries with Dr. Chad Lang and
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Dr. Matt Townsley sharing
nearly 20 years in the trenches of
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grading and assessment reform.
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Let's get started.
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Well, welcome back everybody,
to the Modern Grading Reform mini
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series.
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I'm Chad Lang with my good
friend Matt Townsley.
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Matt, how we doing?
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Great.
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Doing great, doing great.
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Happy 2026 once again.
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Second time been together in 2026.
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Good to see you again, Chad.
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I know it is awesome.
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Well, we dove right into this
miniseries last time we got a chance
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to do episode one.
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Kind of set the stage for our
backgrounds and what we hope this
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series is able to provide our
friends and listeners out there with
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grading and assessment reform.
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We're really excited about
today, going to jump right in and
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like getting started.
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What have we seen work, work
well and just share some good ideas
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over the next amount of time together.
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So thanks for everybody that
jumped on episode one.
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Thanks to our friends over at
Forward Ed for helping us put this
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together and of course, thanks
to our sponsors.
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As always.
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Matt, what's on your mind?
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When people talk to you,
they're thinking about getting started.
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A lot of times people reach
out to you.
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You have such a prolific
website and you curated so many great
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resources that the next step
is they send you an email and say,
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hey, I've been reading some of
those articles or some the of someone
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gave me your name.
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Where do we begin?
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What?
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Well, how do we do that, Matt?
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Yeah, sometimes it's these,
you know, down in the weeds questions
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that are really important at
that moment because of something
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that they've read or something
that they've happened.
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For example, it's like, hey,
maybe we've had this inconsistency
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in how we've weighed the grade book.
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And so they ask, you know,
hey, I read this something or I heard
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about this school.
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Should we do an 80% summative,
20% formative grade gradebook or
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ask a very specific Question
like, hey, can you point me in the
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direction of somebody who's
using this electronic grade book?
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Because we want to set their
grade book in this perfect way.
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And so the, the conversations
sometimes start with these very,
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you know, important details.
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And it's hard for me sometimes
to discern, like, is this, you know,
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the 30th question that they've
asked somebody or is it the first
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question that they've asked somebody?
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Now, if it's the 30th
question, then it's a different,
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you know, kind of conversation
moving forward.
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But oftentimes I just will
assume it's the first question because
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it's their first question to me.
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And I don't know their, their background.
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You know, Chad, you've been
involved in a variety of different
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schools.
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I'm sure you've seen some
different starting points.
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You know, hey, we went to this
conference, we read this book.
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You know what, what's been
kind of your experience in, you know,
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schools reaching out, having
conversations with teachers, administrators
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about, you know, how to get
started with grading reform.
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Yeah, I think my own
experience, I've been absolutely
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blessed that I just happened
to fall into what I think is a terrific
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model.
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And certainly grading reform
is organizational change.
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So, like, going slow to go
fast is important.
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So way back in 2008 or 2007.
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I know, I think I mentioned
this on the first episode.
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Our assistant superintendent
at the time is a person by the name
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of Cheryl Hogan.
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Really, really great
curriculum director and leader.
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Pulled together a team to
study grading reform.
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A couple of leaders from every
building in the district K12 and
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taking a 10,000 foot view at practices.
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And I remember being asked,
and I don't even know why I was asked.
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I guess I kind of give off
this learner vibe as a teacher and
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I was like a young head coach
and I was really busy and I was teaching
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all kinds of different classes.
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And I think I was just
energetic to do stuff in our school.
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And so I got to be a part of that.
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And it was awesome.
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It was no pressure.
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It was like, this year we're
going to meet eight times all day
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and sub you out and just get a
chance to learn with people that
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are all kind of like, minded
in this sort of guiding, I guess
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today we would call it maybe
like a guiding coalition from Bill
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Hall's work.
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And at that time we were just
a pilot group to study grading reform.
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And we were, we were watching
those Rick Warmly videos.
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We were reading some things
from Chris Tovani and, and Rick Stiggins
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and Sue Brookhart and
obviously Dr. Gusky and others, and.
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And just in a real structured way.
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And we challenge all these
assumptions, you know, what should
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be included, what's everything
that's ever been included in a grade.
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And we did post it, note activities.
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And that actually set us up to
kind of emulate some of those activities
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with our board.
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When we were bringing this
idea to our board of education.
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And they really appreciated,
like, when's the last time we've
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used a year to study this
potential change?
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But that actually was just
year one of three.
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And so that.
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That.
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That opportunity to learn led
to sort of dissemination amongst
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our staff.
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They're like, why are you
getting a sub again?
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Where are you going?
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What are you doing?
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And people didn't feel this,
like, I guess, dynamic feeling, like,
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oh, we have to change
everything by, like, next semester.
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There just wasn't any timeline.
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It was like, we're just
studying practices, we're learning.
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And then, of course, naturally
you were excited about things you
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were learning and sharing.
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And so it was just sort of
grassroots, like spill out.
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And other people would say,
well, if they ever need somebody
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to try something, I'd like to
look at that.
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You know, whether it was about
reassessment or, you know, like you
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mentioned the balance between
summative and informative or weighting
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categories or something like that.
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And I thought that was a great model.
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But that's not always what
people ask.
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Sometimes that's not the
answer they want to hear.
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You know, three years either
sounds really short or really long.
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But really I frame the
question back to them is like, what
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are your goals?
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You know, and let's kind of
work backwards from your goals.
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And how expansive do you want
this to be?
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Is this going to involve our
board of education, our parents,
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our stakeholders right away
from the jump?
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Or you want to do some
internal learning and think about
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change management within your organization?
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Because you got to understand
the dynamics of organizational change.
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It's not just about grading
and some of the emotion that comes
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with it.
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Think about any sort of, like,
organizational change and do a little
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research on organizational change.
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That's another thing I would share.
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Yep.
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So those are kind of like both
my experience and just some of the
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things that we have
conversations about early on with
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school leaders.
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Two things I want to just
tease out to highlight from what
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you said, Chad.
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One is that, you know.
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Yeah.
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Bill hall, building a Guiding coalition.
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Great solution tree book there
for kind of the PLC Guiding Coalition
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movement.
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I think some of that comes
back from old John Cotter and the
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Harvard Business School
really, that his organizational change
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framework and this work
shouldn't be done.
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You know, there shouldn't be.
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There has to be somebody
leading it, no doubt, but it shouldn't
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be just one person's idea.
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And so I loved hearing what
you said about people getting together,
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doing activities, reading,
asking each other questions to really
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dig into it.
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And the second thing I love
that you mentioned there was like,
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not just reading a lot about
grading, but also about, you know,
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what change really looks like
and how to do that.
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So I'm, you know, I'm a professor.
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Professor talk here for just a second.
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Right.
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Like, I teach classes for
aspiring school leaders, aspiring
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school superintendents, and
like, very few changes, if any are
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ever going to be successful
long term if they're just a voice
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of one person.
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There has to be a group of
people getting together that they're
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owning it to help, you know,
really overcome those implementation
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speed bumps, hurdles, all
those things along the way.
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There just has to be a group
of people together that are building
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their capacity.
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And so I think really one of
the first steps is to develop some
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type of, you know, grading
leadership team, grading task force,
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whatever that might be.
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And I know of one school
district here in Iowa, like, they,
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their task force, like, they
spent a whole year just reading about
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all.
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Like, we're going to buy, you
know, six different grading books
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and do kind of like a jigsaw
over all of them just to get a whole
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bunch of perspectives.
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Then, to the surprise of the
team, they spent the second year
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just learning about change management.
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And some people are like,
what's going on here?
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Well, the curriculum director,
like, they knew that this was going
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to be a complex change.
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And so let's really build the
capacity of our staff to really understand
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not just we're moving away
from and towards, but how to get
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there as well.
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So having a team in place I
think is fantastic.
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But I think, Chad, there's
also a connection to what?
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All right, well, you've got
that team in place.
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You've read the books, you've
done the sticky note activities,
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you've gone to the fancy,
fancy conferences.
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I think there's a deliverable,
you know, and there's awesome people
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that talk about what this
deliverable ought to be.
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You know, in your experience,
as you've read the Subro karts and
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Tom Guskis of the world.
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What's that?
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That deliverable, that first
deliverable that that guiding coalition
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or grading task force ought to
be working towards.
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Yeah, let me go back to people
reaching out to us a lot of times
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And I've experienced this way.
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Surely you have as well.
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But sometimes when leaders or
even teachers connect with us, they
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tend to be oftentimes really
into the mechanics of ref.
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Oh y.
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Agreed.
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So we're really thinking about
something around homework, and maybe
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00:10:14,452
that is a good entry point for them.
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00:10:17,572
But if you go back to that
Simon cynic, you know, starting with
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00:10:24,212
the why, that golden circle,
why, how and what instead of what
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00:10:28,452
first and be, it's a little
bit of a trap to do that.
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00:10:28,452 -->
00:10:31,492
Although that might be a good
entry point, like some of the mechanical
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00:10:31,732
issues.
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00:10:35,092
Maybe it's your information
system, maybe it's your report card,
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00:10:39,422
maybe it's homework, maybe
it's reassessment, maybe it's the
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00:10:41,182
percentage scale, maybe it's zeros.
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00:10:46,182
You know, those are all kind
of seductive detours to get you to
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00:10:47,222
some conversations.
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00:10:51,381
But if you isolate and focus
on the what, you'll really lose people
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00:10:52,102
in the why.
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00:10:58,022
And so in order to help teams
and schools do that, I think we really
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00:11:01,182
need to hone in on some
guiding principles about what it
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00:11:04,502
is that we believe grades are
supposed to do here at our school
246
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00:11:06,552
through a grading purpose statement.
247
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00:11:08,312
What a great deliverable.
248
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00:11:09,432
What a great deliverable.
249
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00:11:13,592
And I mean like mince over
every single word.
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00:11:13,672 -->
00:11:17,472
Because our friend Ken o'
Connor says, and I love how he says,
251
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00:11:19,872
like a grading purpose
statement, like identifying your
252
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00:11:23,592
grading purpose statement
becomes your compass and your compass
253
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00:11:24,872
orients your actions.
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00:11:28,312
So it's really easy to say
that as you're trying to develop
255
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00:11:32,822
actionable steps related to
your purpose, you can just assess
256
00:11:32,822 -->
00:11:33,942
them to the compass.
257
00:11:33,942 -->
00:11:38,342
Like, you know, we said that
we believe that all kids can learn
258
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00:11:41,222
at different rates, but then
we have deadlines for reassessment
259
00:11:41,222 -->
00:11:44,142
that are super tight, like
five days or something like that.
260
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00:11:47,581
So it's like you were on the
right track before you didn't have
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00:11:47,581 -->
00:11:52,342
any reassessment, but you're
not really fully aligned with what
262
00:11:52,342 -->
00:11:52,702
you said.
263
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00:11:53,182
You are.
264
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00:11:56,262
And if you want people to
build relational capacity and trust
265
00:11:56,262 -->
00:11:57,902
the work that you're doing,
that looks different.
266
00:11:58,242 -->
00:12:01,122
And when I say people, I'm
talking about kids, but also their
267
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00:12:01,522
parents.
268
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00:12:05,562
You gotta be able to follow
through with what you said and people
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00:12:06,482
can be on board.
270
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00:12:08,962
You know, you think about all
the high performing organizations
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00:12:11,242
and companies out there in the
world, the ones that are the most
272
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00:12:11,842
successful.
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00:12:12,402 -->
00:12:15,202
You may not love their
products, you may not even be a fan
274
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00:12:18,242
of their company or their food
or whatever, but you know exactly
275
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00:12:21,562
what they stand for and how
they deliver, and it develops that
276
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00:12:23,162
sort of organizational trust.
277
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00:12:24,442
That customers have.
278
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00:12:26,482
And I think our students, our
families are our customers.
279
00:12:26,482 -->
00:12:28,802
So if you have a purpose
statement that's clear enough for
280
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00:12:32,802
people to and broad enough to
make sure it hits what you're looking
281
00:12:32,802 -->
00:12:36,162
for, then you can develop
action steps or stop doing actions
282
00:12:36,162 -->
00:12:37,282
that aren't aligned to that.
283
00:12:37,282 -->
00:12:39,722
Have you had some experience
with grading purpose statements?
284
00:12:40,042 -->
00:12:43,482
Yeah, I think for those that,
you know, tuned in in detail to episode
285
00:12:43,482 -->
00:12:46,402
one, we kind of teased out
the, you know, why schools are changing
286
00:12:46,402 -->
00:12:47,322
the grading practices.
287
00:12:47,402 -->
00:12:51,162
We talked about, you know,
consistency, clarity and equity as
288
00:12:51,162 -->
00:12:54,302
being those kind of those
three big ones we see out there that
289
00:12:54,302 -->
00:12:57,582
could be a starting point for
a school as they develop their grading
290
00:12:57,582 -->
00:13:01,062
purpose statement is we want
to be more consistent and clear.
291
00:13:01,302 -->
00:13:01,622
Right.
292
00:13:01,622 -->
00:13:04,422
Like, you know, embedding some
of those phrases or just choosing
293
00:13:04,422 -->
00:13:05,782
the one that's most important
to them.
294
00:13:05,782 -->
00:13:06,022
Right.
295
00:13:06,022 -->
00:13:09,022
I've seen schools that just
say communication is the most important
296
00:13:09,022 -->
00:13:09,702
one for us.
297
00:13:09,942 -->
00:13:13,222
And so our grading purpose
statement is the purpose of grades
298
00:13:13,222 -->
00:13:17,142
at XYZ school district is to
communicate students levels of learning
299
00:13:17,142 -->
00:13:19,302
based upon state academic standards.
300
00:13:20,212 -->
00:13:21,412
That's why we're doing what
we're doing.
301
00:13:21,732 -->
00:13:24,852
We believe that grades are
communication, not compensation.
302
00:13:25,252 -->
00:13:28,052
And so that's why we're, you
know, making these other changes.
303
00:13:28,292 -->
00:13:31,132
And so I think, Chad, just to,
you know, use a phrase you mentioned
304
00:13:31,132 -->
00:13:34,412
earlier, is that rather than
getting too focused on the mechanics
305
00:13:34,412 -->
00:13:36,492
first, like what our
gradebook's going to look like, how
306
00:13:36,492 -->
00:13:41,012
it's weighted and so forth,
taking that step back with the guiding
307
00:13:41,012 -->
00:13:44,692
coalition, the grading task
force, and co creating this grading
308
00:13:44,692 -->
00:13:48,252
purpose statement is
definitely one of those first deliverables
309
00:13:48,252 -->
00:13:51,702
that, you know, not just Matt
and Chad think, but we can anchor
310
00:13:51,702 -->
00:13:54,582
that in a variety of others
that have written things before us.
311
00:13:54,902 -->
00:13:56,342
But that's not the end point.
312
00:13:56,342 -->
00:13:58,822
It's certainly the starting
point, Chad.
313
00:13:59,542 -->
00:14:02,982
You know, but schools still
are like, but how should we handle
314
00:14:02,982 -->
00:14:03,542
homework?
315
00:14:03,782 -->
00:14:06,822
You know, how are we going to
communicate learning in the grade
316
00:14:06,822 -->
00:14:07,022
book?
317
00:14:07,022 -->
00:14:08,382
You know, how should we handle reassessments?
318
00:14:08,382 -->
00:14:10,022
And so there's got to be
something else.
319
00:14:10,502 -->
00:14:12,262
And I'll, and I'll tee it up
for just a second.
320
00:14:12,262 -->
00:14:15,662
I was doing a workshop once
where, you know, like, hey, do it.
321
00:14:15,662 -->
00:14:17,262
Do an introduction to
standards business grading.
322
00:14:17,262 -->
00:14:17,662
Townsley.
323
00:14:17,662 -->
00:14:22,522
So I come and do this workshop
and this very kind teacher met me
324
00:14:22,522 -->
00:14:25,242
at the first morning break and
says, Dr. Townsley, I just want to
325
00:14:25,242 -->
00:14:28,762
let you know you keep using
this phrase, standards based grading,
326
00:14:28,922 -->
00:14:32,402
but everybody here has an
entirely different definition or
327
00:14:32,402 -->
00:14:35,082
they don't even know what it
is that you're talking about.
328
00:14:35,082 -->
00:14:38,442
Here it's not been clearly
defined to them what this grading
329
00:14:38,442 -->
00:14:39,482
change is all about.
330
00:14:40,922 -->
00:14:43,962
And so it was just, it was
hard for them to have a collective
331
00:14:43,962 -->
00:14:44,482
understanding.
332
00:14:44,482 -->
00:14:47,512
So I think that's where this
next step really comes into play.
333
00:14:47,512 -->
00:14:52,872
It unify, it begins to unify
everyone as to what we're doing based
334
00:14:52,872 -->
00:14:54,392
upon that grading purpose statement.
335
00:14:54,392 -->
00:14:58,232
So, Chad, talk to us about,
you know, policies or principles,
336
00:14:58,232 -->
00:14:59,752
however you want to phrase it.
337
00:15:01,272 -->
00:15:03,032
Yeah, I'm happy to do that.
338
00:15:03,192 -->
00:15:06,072
I think I want to talk about
something that's a nice bridger between
339
00:15:06,072 -->
00:15:06,792
these two.
340
00:15:07,352 -->
00:15:11,272
And this is a cautionary tale
about being really locked into naming
341
00:15:11,272 -->
00:15:12,472
the reform.
342
00:15:13,882 -->
00:15:14,842
We've heard it all.
343
00:15:15,402 -->
00:15:18,002
I mean standards based
grading, standards reference grading,
344
00:15:18,002 -->
00:15:21,482
competency grading, ungrading,
standards based assessment reporting.
345
00:15:21,482 -->
00:15:23,802
I mean you could list 10 more probably.
346
00:15:24,922 -->
00:15:29,762
And while there's probably a
good reason to do that, one of the
347
00:15:29,762 -->
00:15:32,842
things we can say about the
stickiness of grading reform is that's
348
00:15:32,842 -->
00:15:33,962
not an initiative.
349
00:15:34,842 -->
00:15:39,212
You're not going to go out and
find this, the seminal book or video
350
00:15:39,292 -->
00:15:43,772
series or methodology that's
going to solve whatever problem you
351
00:15:43,772 -->
00:15:44,012
have.
352
00:15:44,012 -->
00:15:48,932
Because remember, this is a
communication issue and it's about
353
00:15:48,932 -->
00:15:50,332
validity of communication.
354
00:15:50,332 -->
00:15:53,332
It's about the quality of
inputs of communication and what
355
00:15:53,332 -->
00:15:56,252
it means to the people that
want to know and need to know, which
356
00:15:56,252 -->
00:15:59,212
is parents, students, maybe
other stakeholders, colleges, universities,
357
00:15:59,212 -->
00:16:00,252
the military, whatever.
358
00:16:01,932 -->
00:16:06,502
And because we have this long
history of using oftentimes like
359
00:16:06,502 -->
00:16:11,742
an omnibus, single solitary
score or grade to try to represent
360
00:16:11,822 -->
00:16:16,142
all kinds of different
purposes and never really isolating
361
00:16:16,462 -->
00:16:20,182
on what our actual purpose is
at the school and being clear about
362
00:16:20,182 -->
00:16:20,542
that.
363
00:16:20,702 -->
00:16:23,782
And people just sort of make
up rules of their own and then they
364
00:16:23,782 -->
00:16:28,422
go out looking for sort of
branded, you know, systems.
365
00:16:28,422 -->
00:16:33,832
And, and while it's certainly
system changing, the cautionary tale
366
00:16:33,832 -->
00:16:34,992
is putting a brand on it.
367
00:16:34,992 -->
00:16:38,512
And I know that you and I have
talked about this a lot and we really
368
00:16:38,512 -->
00:16:42,152
tried to refer to like an all
encompassing umbrella movement just
369
00:16:42,392 -->
00:16:44,472
to say it's modern grading reform.
370
00:16:44,472 -->
00:16:48,552
Like we're just trying to
modernize the opportunity and that
371
00:16:48,552 -->
00:16:51,832
really can bring it under a
more broad umbrella.
372
00:16:51,832 -->
00:16:53,192
Maybe it doesn't seem so
373
00:16:55,592 -->
00:16:56,632
antagonistic.
374
00:16:57,442 -->
00:17:00,602
Yeah, I think sometimes people
feel like it's a canned thing when
375
00:17:00,602 -->
00:17:04,042
it has like this sort of
formalized brain pick
376
00:17:04,042 -->
00:17:07,162
up this, we would pick up this
book and do it exactly how they tell
377
00:17:07,162 -->
00:17:07,842
us to do it.
378
00:17:08,002 -->
00:17:11,162
And that that immediately
turns people off because basically
379
00:17:11,162 -->
00:17:16,402
it's like saying, you know,
well, it's like a plug and play solution.
380
00:17:17,122 -->
00:17:20,962
And this, this work is more
systematic and reforming.
381
00:17:20,962 -->
00:17:24,322
It's Sort of like it's sort of
like picking a weight loss program
382
00:17:24,482 -->
00:17:26,242
and saying, you know, well,
that didn't work.
383
00:17:27,432 -->
00:17:31,512
Well, we know that that's just
emblematic of a larger system change.
384
00:17:31,512 -->
00:17:35,072
Like it's your diet and your
sleep and your, it's, it's more than
385
00:17:35,072 -->
00:17:36,952
just what the program can do
for you.
386
00:17:37,032 -->
00:17:40,632
But yet when it does work, we
blame the fad or we blame the brand
387
00:17:40,632 -->
00:17:42,072
and we just shift on.
388
00:17:42,072 -->
00:17:46,432
And that organizational change
has a heavy consequence on your employees
389
00:17:46,432 -->
00:17:47,112
and your students.
390
00:17:47,672 -->
00:17:48,232
Yep.
391
00:17:48,472 -->
00:17:51,312
So if you can just say, you
know, hey, these are our principles,
392
00:17:51,312 -->
00:17:54,622
these are our values of what
we believe about grading and reporting
393
00:17:54,622 -->
00:17:58,982
and get rock solid on those,
then you'll be able to internally
394
00:17:58,982 -->
00:18:02,062
develop policies and
procedures that are perfectly aligned
395
00:18:02,062 -->
00:18:08,262
to those and you won't have to
try to pick like that brand of rules
396
00:18:08,982 -->
00:18:11,982
and because you can find stuff
out there, I mean, there's no doubt
397
00:18:11,982 -->
00:18:12,582
about that.
398
00:18:12,742 -->
00:18:14,742
But I think that's certainly a challenge.
399
00:18:15,142 -->
00:18:18,502
It's not the only school
improvement type methodology or,
400
00:18:18,862 -->
00:18:22,542
or systems change that, that
has, that, that has that challenge.
401
00:18:22,542 -->
00:18:24,222
But, but we think that's been.
402
00:18:24,462 -->
00:18:28,062
And, and I know I've heard Dr.
Gusky talk about that in others.
403
00:18:28,382 -->
00:18:31,182
And so one of the things I
would just sort of intermediary challenge
404
00:18:31,182 -->
00:18:36,102
people to think about is like,
I wouldn't spend a ton of time thinking
405
00:18:36,102 -->
00:18:39,902
about the naming of the work,
but I would just try to jump right
406
00:18:39,902 -->
00:18:43,342
more into what's the purpose
of the work and the action steps.
407
00:18:43,342 -->
00:18:43,902
What's the same?
408
00:18:43,902 -->
00:18:44,462
What's different?
409
00:18:45,472 -->
00:18:46,712
I know you and I have talked
about that.
410
00:18:46,712 -->
00:18:47,992
I mean, what would you add to that?
411
00:18:47,992 -->
00:18:48,432
Matt?
412
00:18:49,072 -->
00:18:50,112
Yeah, I'm with you.
413
00:18:50,112 -->
00:18:52,872
It's not really about, you
know, standards based standards ref
414
00:18:52,872 -->
00:18:56,632
competency based or, or, or
just using somebody else's playbook.
415
00:18:56,632 -->
00:18:59,912
Definitely that's not what,
what I think either of us would advocate
416
00:18:59,912 -->
00:19:00,192
for.
417
00:19:00,752 -->
00:19:03,592
I think though that, you know,
having a grading purpose statement
418
00:19:03,592 -->
00:19:06,592
is a great first step, but
then we need to anchor ourselves
419
00:19:06,592 -->
00:19:10,552
just a little bit more in the
weeds on some of the common grading
420
00:19:10,552 -->
00:19:11,752
reform shifts.
421
00:19:11,752 -->
00:19:12,112
Right.
422
00:19:12,482 -->
00:19:15,402
Like this idea of we used to,
you know, somehow put points and
423
00:19:15,402 -->
00:19:16,642
percentages in the gradebook.
424
00:19:16,882 -->
00:19:20,162
Now we're going to communicate
students current levels of learning
425
00:19:20,322 -->
00:19:24,002
based upon standards using a,
you know, four distinct performance
426
00:19:24,162 -->
00:19:25,682
categories or something like that.
427
00:19:26,002 -->
00:19:29,922
Grading reform is a long term
shift, not a one time program.
428
00:19:30,802 -->
00:19:34,522
As you listen to Matt and Chad
unpack what works, here's a practical
429
00:19:34,522 -->
00:19:34,882
question.
430
00:19:35,522 -->
00:19:37,602
Where does the Evidence of
Student Learning
431
00:19:37,602 -->
00:19:41,212
act actually live in your
district spaces?
432
00:19:41,212 -->
00:19:45,092
EDU is a digital portfolio and
proficiency based assessment Platform
433
00:19:45,092 -->
00:19:47,212
that helps districts make
learning visible.
434
00:19:47,692 -->
00:19:50,332
Students collect authentic
evidence, align it to
435
00:19:50,332 -->
00:19:53,852
standards or competencies, and
reflect on their growth over time.
436
00:19:54,492 -->
00:19:56,932
If your grading system is
changing, the
437
00:19:56,932 -->
00:19:59,292
way you capture learning has
to change too.
438
00:19:59,852 -->
00:20:06,492
Explore how@spacesedu.com
grading so when I think of, you know,
439
00:20:06,492 -->
00:20:09,132
all right, this grading
purpose statement is like the overarching,
440
00:20:09,132 -->
00:20:10,652
you know, why are we doing
what we're doing?
441
00:20:10,652 -->
00:20:12,732
And now we're going to get
into a little bit more to the what.
442
00:20:13,452 -->
00:20:16,932
And so, you know, school
district leaders out there, you can
443
00:20:16,932 -->
00:20:20,532
envision like a one pager
where you've got your grading purpose
444
00:20:20,532 -->
00:20:23,172
statement at the top, and then
underneath of it, it's like, what
445
00:20:23,172 -->
00:20:24,612
are we going to do for reassessments?
446
00:20:24,612 -->
00:20:24,892
Right?
447
00:20:24,892 -->
00:20:28,252
We're going to allow students
multiple opportunities to reassess.
448
00:20:28,572 -->
00:20:32,872
However, teachers will be
provided the ability to, you know,
449
00:20:33,432 -->
00:20:35,232
teach them correctives and so forth.
450
00:20:35,232 -->
00:20:36,712
You put a qualifier on there, right?
451
00:20:36,712 -->
00:20:40,872
So that becomes one of the
grading policies or principles.
452
00:20:41,352 -->
00:20:43,872
Extra credit will not be
permitted in our school.
453
00:20:43,872 -->
00:20:47,032
That's another of those, you
know, policies or principles.
454
00:20:47,271 -->
00:20:50,312
We will communicate, you know,
you know, using the following performance
455
00:20:50,472 -->
00:20:51,832
categories in the grade book.
456
00:20:52,072 -->
00:20:54,712
One represents this, two
represents this, and so forth.
457
00:20:54,792 -->
00:20:57,272
The way I think about it is
like, we have to start to define
458
00:20:57,272 -->
00:20:59,992
and outline what the grading
reform is.
459
00:21:01,212 -->
00:21:05,612
And we begin to foreshadow
this idea that at some point in time
460
00:21:05,612 -->
00:21:07,612
we're going to be onboarding
new staff, right?
461
00:21:07,772 -->
00:21:11,372
Mrs. Smith retires, or we're
growing as a school, whatever it
462
00:21:11,372 -->
00:21:11,772
might be.
463
00:21:13,052 -->
00:21:15,372
This school that reached out
to me actually back in the pandemic
464
00:21:15,372 -->
00:21:18,332
from Kansas, this high school,
they actually had this experience.
465
00:21:18,332 -->
00:21:21,292
They're like, matt, we've read
the books, we've gone to the conferences,
466
00:21:21,292 -->
00:21:24,972
like, can you just, you know,
virtually work with us and help us
467
00:21:24,972 -->
00:21:28,702
develop, like, our grading,
you know, like the beginning of our
468
00:21:28,702 -->
00:21:29,702
grading playbook.
469
00:21:30,102 -->
00:21:32,582
And so we started grading
purpose statement.
470
00:21:32,902 -->
00:21:35,542
And I think they end up with
four grading policies.
471
00:21:36,022 -->
00:21:38,022
And then it's like, you know,
what we're learning?
472
00:21:38,022 -->
00:21:39,022
We're talking more about that.
473
00:21:39,022 -->
00:21:40,022
We're building our capacity.
474
00:21:40,022 -->
00:21:41,062
What's this mean for us?
475
00:21:41,062 -->
00:21:42,102
What's that not mean?
476
00:21:42,102 -->
00:21:44,022
And that's the beginning of
the playbook.
477
00:21:44,022 -->
00:21:46,542
And they start to say the
reason that we're doing this because
478
00:21:46,542 -->
00:21:50,022
is because we know we're gonna
be hiring Mrs. Smith's replacement
479
00:21:50,022 -->
00:21:50,662
next year.
480
00:21:50,982 -->
00:21:55,232
And we gotta onboard Mrs.
Smith's replacement to understand,
481
00:21:55,552 -->
00:21:59,072
you know, the what and the why
of our grading reform.
482
00:21:59,392 -->
00:22:02,112
And so I think that's, you
know, it's got to be written down.
483
00:22:02,112 -->
00:22:03,672
It's Got to be institutionalized.
484
00:22:03,672 -->
00:22:04,992
It has to be revisited.
485
00:22:05,072 -->
00:22:08,512
I mean, anybody can do this,
by the way, but if it just sits on
486
00:22:08,512 -->
00:22:12,272
the shelf or in a Google Doc
or in a teams folder, it's not a
487
00:22:12,272 -->
00:22:14,432
living, breathing and active document.
488
00:22:14,512 -->
00:22:18,272
So it has to be something that
we're constantly referring back to.
489
00:22:19,052 -->
00:22:21,572
But then I, you know, Chad,
you know, I talk about this, right?
490
00:22:21,572 -->
00:22:24,052
I know that you're very much
of a, you know, a systems thinker.
491
00:22:24,052 -->
00:22:25,772
You're always like, hey, we
just can't make this change.
492
00:22:25,772 -->
00:22:28,612
It's going to have this domino
effect over here and all that for
493
00:22:28,612 -->
00:22:28,892
sure.
494
00:22:29,612 -->
00:22:35,692
What, what type of, you know,
like, systems do you have you observed,
495
00:22:35,692 -->
00:22:38,292
you know, of that are also
going to have to have, you know,
496
00:22:38,292 -->
00:22:41,212
plenty of attention given to
them once we start to make these
497
00:22:41,212 -->
00:22:42,012
grading shifts.
498
00:22:42,092 -->
00:22:45,292
Well, I'll give you a couple,
and some might not be so obvious.
499
00:22:46,492 -->
00:22:49,372
One MTSS intervention.
500
00:22:50,332 -->
00:22:51,652
What's our ability to.
501
00:22:51,652 -->
00:22:53,932
Now that we have an
opportunity to communicate maybe
502
00:22:53,932 -->
00:22:58,052
more clearly, perhaps in a
more valid way, hopefully that's
503
00:22:58,052 -->
00:23:02,372
true in a more reliable way,
it's going to tell us more about
504
00:23:02,372 -->
00:23:05,852
our students internally and
what are going to be our systems
505
00:23:05,852 -->
00:23:09,212
to support from a systems lens.
506
00:23:09,212 -->
00:23:09,692
Amen.
507
00:23:10,572 -->
00:23:11,492
Is it an rti?
508
00:23:11,492 -->
00:23:12,532
Is it an mtss?
509
00:23:12,532 -->
00:23:13,412
What does that look like?
510
00:23:13,412 -->
00:23:16,762
And I'm talking to the school
leaders out there and is it set up
511
00:23:16,762 -->
00:23:20,522
to address and communicate and
talk the same language?
512
00:23:22,682 -->
00:23:25,802
And so, like, I know I've
worked in schools and I, and I talk
513
00:23:25,802 -->
00:23:27,802
to schools all the time about tears.
514
00:23:27,962 -->
00:23:29,482
Like, they want to talk about tears.
515
00:23:29,482 -->
00:23:31,762
And I always get nervous when
they're like, yeah, once they hit
516
00:23:31,762 -->
00:23:33,842
a certain grade, then they go
to this intervention.
517
00:23:33,842 -->
00:23:36,482
I'm like, are we talking, are
we talking about like a summative
518
00:23:36,482 -->
00:23:38,602
grade or a formative piece of feedback?
519
00:23:39,242 -->
00:23:42,592
Because, you know, specific
and timely interventions, you know,
520
00:23:42,592 -->
00:23:45,272
a holistic, like, summative
grade that might be a little late,
521
00:23:45,272 -->
00:23:48,472
you know, and, and they hadn't
even, like, considered that.
522
00:23:48,632 -->
00:23:48,992
Right.
523
00:23:48,992 -->
00:23:50,632
They're like, we're just
trying to help students that are
524
00:23:50,632 -->
00:23:51,112
struggling.
525
00:23:51,432 -->
00:23:52,152
I get that.
526
00:23:52,152 -->
00:23:55,392
But remember, how we
communicate at different points in
527
00:23:55,392 -->
00:23:57,752
the journey tells us some
different things.
528
00:23:58,151 -->
00:24:02,272
And let's just not assume that
all of that is, is saying the same
529
00:24:02,272 -->
00:24:02,592
thing.
530
00:24:02,592 -->
00:24:02,952
Right.
531
00:24:04,312 -->
00:24:07,392
And, and so that's been a
point here.
532
00:24:07,392 -->
00:24:08,312
Here's another one.
533
00:24:09,002 -->
00:24:11,802
Behavior systems, like,
behavior interventions.
534
00:24:11,882 -->
00:24:14,602
What's the interplay between,
like, consequences?
535
00:24:16,042 -->
00:24:18,922
You know, I, I know schools
that have to consider, are we going
536
00:24:18,922 -->
00:24:21,922
to require people to make up
things during in school suspension
537
00:24:21,922 -->
00:24:25,082
or out of school suspension
or, you know, you and I both Heard
538
00:24:25,562 -->
00:24:28,922
you don't get to make up any
work when you're suspended.
539
00:24:29,162 -->
00:24:29,762
And it's.
540
00:24:29,762 -->
00:24:31,882
And of course, that just flies
right in the face of what everybody
541
00:24:31,882 -->
00:24:34,282
else is trying to do, which is
to get students to do practice.
542
00:24:35,942 -->
00:24:38,702
And, you know, hopefully, you
know, what if they're suspended during
543
00:24:38,702 -->
00:24:39,462
an assessment?
544
00:24:39,542 -->
00:24:41,982
And are there schools that are
like counting that against students,
545
00:24:41,982 -->
00:24:45,742
you know, and that, that's
that mixture piece of behavior in
546
00:24:45,742 -->
00:24:47,862
academics, they're like, well,
we don't count homework for a grade.
547
00:24:47,862 -->
00:24:48,742
We don't do that.
548
00:24:48,822 -->
00:24:51,502
But then again, they're not
even looking at, you know, what is
549
00:24:51,502 -->
00:24:53,862
their behavior management
system or protocols.
550
00:24:54,102 -->
00:24:56,822
And then lastly, like, what
about your extracurriculars?
551
00:24:58,022 -->
00:24:59,622
Yeah, this is a big piece.
552
00:24:59,622 -->
00:25:01,622
You know, I used to be an
athletic director, so I have a special
553
00:25:01,622 -->
00:25:04,142
place in, in my heart for
athletic directors.
554
00:25:04,142 -->
00:25:08,182
And a lot of athletic
directors, excuse me, were teachers
555
00:25:08,182 -->
00:25:09,702
and coaches within organizations.
556
00:25:09,702 -->
00:25:12,862
But you know, some of them
maybe weren't at that school or they're.
557
00:25:12,942 -->
00:25:15,262
It's been a long time since
they've been involved in grading,
558
00:25:15,262 -->
00:25:16,262
assessment or anything like that.
559
00:25:16,262 -->
00:25:18,742
So thinking about, like, if
you're going to have a reassessment
560
00:25:18,742 -->
00:25:21,262
policy and you're going to
require, I know districts that require
561
00:25:21,262 -->
00:25:24,382
reassessment or remediation at
certain levels or certain grades,
562
00:25:25,102 -->
00:25:29,342
and they're expecting them to
come after school and are we going
563
00:25:29,342 -->
00:25:30,542
to allow them to miss practice?
564
00:25:30,542 -->
00:25:32,302
Is that a consequence for
missing practice?
565
00:25:32,302 -->
00:25:33,982
How does that fit with your
behavior management?
566
00:25:34,362 -->
00:25:36,042
Like, now you're bringing in
three systems.
567
00:25:36,442 -->
00:25:38,322
I think it is a huge link.
568
00:25:38,322 -->
00:25:41,522
And I know that in a lot of
schools, 60 or percent or more of
569
00:25:41,522 -->
00:25:43,482
students are involved in
extracurricular activity.
570
00:25:43,562 -->
00:25:44,682
What about eligibility?
571
00:25:46,362 -->
00:25:49,642
You need to make sure that
there's a coherent way.
572
00:25:50,202 -->
00:25:53,802
Because if, if we're not
providing, for example, I know we.
573
00:25:53,802 -->
00:25:56,122
There's a lot of schools that
want to be able to do remediation,
574
00:25:56,122 -->
00:26:00,322
reassessment for students that
are really needing that support and
575
00:26:00,322 -->
00:26:03,362
not treating it as if it's a
consequence, like you're in trouble.
576
00:26:03,922 -->
00:26:07,162
But if that's going to require
them to miss the first 10 minutes
577
00:26:07,162 -->
00:26:09,522
of basketball practice and
they're going to have to run line
578
00:26:09,522 -->
00:26:12,202
drills or they won't get to
start, you know, you're sending a
579
00:26:12,202 -->
00:26:15,802
difficult message to that
student that, you know, does your.
580
00:26:15,802 -->
00:26:17,482
I thought your school really
valued this process.
581
00:26:17,482 -->
00:26:19,122
I mean, that this is what we
were going to do.
582
00:26:19,122 -->
00:26:21,202
But you know, the left hand's
not talking to the right.
583
00:26:21,202 -->
00:26:23,602
Maybe the head coach isn't a
teacher in the building or they don't
584
00:26:23,602 -->
00:26:26,482
Understand, you're really
putting the kids in the middle.
585
00:26:26,682 -->
00:26:29,162
And so that's just something
that we can think through by having
586
00:26:29,162 -->
00:26:32,402
a lot of different
stakeholders in your task force or
587
00:26:32,402 -->
00:26:33,802
your grading guiding coalition.
588
00:26:33,802 -->
00:26:36,322
I mean, there's a lot of
things to do, but there's a lot of
589
00:26:36,322 -->
00:26:38,042
ground to cover there around systems.
590
00:26:39,002 -->
00:26:42,202
Have you seen anything that
involved extracurriculars that way?
591
00:26:42,362 -->
00:26:42,721
Yeah.
592
00:26:42,721 -->
00:26:42,962
Yeah.
593
00:26:42,962 -->
00:26:44,122
Well, I'd say a couple of things.
594
00:26:44,122 -->
00:26:45,922
One thing I was going to say
is extracurriculars, Right.
595
00:26:45,922 -->
00:26:47,362
Like, sometimes it's, it's the.
596
00:26:47,362 -->
00:26:49,322
How are we going to handle
eligibility now?
597
00:26:49,322 -->
00:26:51,402
Because the information we
have is different.
598
00:26:51,402 -->
00:26:53,802
The information we're getting
at different is different.
599
00:26:53,802 -->
00:26:54,042
Right.
600
00:26:54,042 -->
00:26:57,382
It used to be we're just
basing it upon, you know, how well
601
00:26:57,382 -->
00:27:00,622
did a kid do at the end of the
quarter, I've seen, or the end of
602
00:27:00,622 -->
00:27:02,342
semester, are they going to be eligible?
603
00:27:02,342 -->
00:27:04,302
Sometimes the state has a
specific rule.
604
00:27:04,302 -->
00:27:05,542
We still got to abide by it.
605
00:27:06,662 -->
00:27:10,782
Sometimes schools have more
like preventative, you know, policies
606
00:27:10,782 -->
00:27:11,221
as well.
607
00:27:11,221 -->
00:27:13,702
Like, hey, if you're not
passing at the end of three weeks
608
00:27:13,862 -->
00:27:16,302
in a class, then we're going
to put you on this, like one week
609
00:27:16,302 -->
00:27:19,222
of probation so you can get
your grade back up.
610
00:27:19,542 -->
00:27:23,542
But if that evidence that was
being used before was just, you know,
611
00:27:23,622 -->
00:27:27,582
practice points before and now
we, do we really even have any evidence
612
00:27:27,582 -->
00:27:30,142
of learning that's summative
to put in there that would contribute
613
00:27:30,142 -->
00:27:30,782
towards a grade?
614
00:27:30,782 -->
00:27:34,502
So it really creates these new
kind of peel back the onion type
615
00:27:34,502 -->
00:27:38,302
of questions that can get in
the way of extra credit, extracurricular
616
00:27:38,302 -->
00:27:38,862
eligibility.
617
00:27:39,182 -->
00:27:39,742
Yep.
618
00:27:39,902 -->
00:27:43,022
Here's two more that, that as
I, as you were talking, I was thinking
619
00:27:43,022 -->
00:27:43,422
about them.
620
00:27:43,422 -->
00:27:47,182
One is, I was talking to a
administrator, I think it was two
621
00:27:47,182 -->
00:27:48,542
weeks ago, and he's like, you
know what?
622
00:27:48,702 -->
00:27:50,982
We're really thinking
differently now about our summer
623
00:27:50,982 -->
00:27:51,262
school.
624
00:27:51,262 -->
00:27:54,302
It used to be, you know, we'd
offer, you know, these credit recovery
625
00:27:54,302 -->
00:27:57,632
things where if a student, you
know, failed this class, they take
626
00:27:57,632 -->
00:27:59,872
it over again this summer so
we can try to keep them on track
627
00:27:59,872 -->
00:28:00,592
to graduate.
628
00:28:00,592 -->
00:28:01,552
Now we're rethinking it.
629
00:28:01,552 -->
00:28:05,432
Like, is it really about them
failing the class or is it more about
630
00:28:05,752 -->
00:28:08,312
what standards does this
student not yet understand?
631
00:28:09,192 -->
00:28:11,952
And actually making this
summer school experience more appealing
632
00:28:11,952 -->
00:28:15,112
and probably more
instructionally appropriate because
633
00:28:15,112 -->
00:28:18,232
the kid maybe understood, you
know, whatever those standards were,
634
00:28:18,232 -->
00:28:19,912
they just didn't understand
these over here.
635
00:28:20,232 -->
00:28:22,912
And that's what's contributing
to, you know, the final grade in
636
00:28:22,912 -->
00:28:24,152
their, you know, high school system.
637
00:28:25,452 -->
00:28:28,052
And I think one of you alluded
to with intervention systems is you
638
00:28:28,052 -->
00:28:29,692
know, just the master schedule.
639
00:28:29,932 -->
00:28:30,292
Right.
640
00:28:30,292 -->
00:28:33,292
Like some schools, they
already have kind of a good like
641
00:28:33,692 -->
00:28:35,852
wind time, tiger time, that
type of thing.
642
00:28:35,852 -->
00:28:38,252
And they start to kind of
repurpose it.
643
00:28:38,652 -->
00:28:41,492
And others are like, oh my
gosh, we need to figure that out
644
00:28:41,492 -->
00:28:42,612
in our master schedule.
645
00:28:42,612 -->
00:28:45,172
And so their challenge is
trying to figure out how to get that
646
00:28:45,172 -->
00:28:48,412
in their master schedule, let
alone how to use it appropriately.
647
00:28:48,652 -->
00:28:51,132
And I think that the big
picture, I hear you saying is, is
648
00:28:51,392 -->
00:28:53,272
if you're a high school out
there, we're trying to just move
649
00:28:53,272 -->
00:28:56,512
away from, you know, just run
the DNF list and doing the same old
650
00:28:56,512 -->
00:28:57,632
thing over and over again.
651
00:28:58,032 -->
00:29:02,032
There's a better opportunity
out there within this grading reform
652
00:29:02,432 -->
00:29:05,472
to really understand by the
student, by the standard where they
653
00:29:05,472 -->
00:29:09,432
at and what does that mean for
us as a system and how do we refine
654
00:29:09,432 -->
00:29:12,032
our system to better respond
to those blurs?
655
00:29:12,432 -->
00:29:12,752
Yeah.
656
00:29:12,752 -->
00:29:16,032
And, and we say all that not
as a matter to like, if you jumped
657
00:29:16,032 -->
00:29:18,692
on this series, you're like,
okay, I, we really want to do this,
658
00:29:18,692 -->
00:29:19,012
baby.
659
00:29:19,012 -->
00:29:20,612
You're giving me a lot of
things to think about.
660
00:29:21,092 -->
00:29:23,852
That's coming from a good
place of our 20 years in the trenches.
661
00:29:23,852 -->
00:29:25,532
That's why we're doing this, Right.
662
00:29:25,532 -->
00:29:28,132
That's why we're providing
this opportunity to have a conversation
663
00:29:28,132 -->
00:29:30,292
about things we've learned,
things we're seeing.
664
00:29:30,292 -->
00:29:32,052
I mean, I could go further, right?
665
00:29:32,052 -->
00:29:33,092
Like what about technology?
666
00:29:34,292 -->
00:29:36,932
What about access to the
student view of their scores?
667
00:29:36,932 -->
00:29:39,172
And is the technology
department on board?
668
00:29:39,252 -->
00:29:40,852
Technology, Transportation.
669
00:29:42,132 -->
00:29:45,012
I know some schools that do
intervention earlier in the morning.
670
00:29:45,092 -->
00:29:47,692
And can we do it before
students are required to be there?
671
00:29:47,692 -->
00:29:48,652
Well, that's not equitable.
672
00:29:48,652 -->
00:29:49,402
And so there's transportation.
673
00:29:49,472 -->
00:29:50,032
Transportation.
674
00:29:50,272 -->
00:29:51,752
What about the drop off schedule?
675
00:29:51,752 -->
00:29:53,672
And I mean there's just so
many things to think about.
676
00:29:53,672 -->
00:29:54,952
Nutrition, Nutri.
677
00:29:54,952 -->
00:29:57,352
You know, you're gonna, most
of the time you're trying to do intervention
678
00:29:57,352 -->
00:29:58,272
or support learners.
679
00:29:58,432 -->
00:30:00,712
You're trying to find minutes
in the day to do that in your schedule,
680
00:30:00,712 -->
00:30:01,632
as you alluded to.
681
00:30:02,032 -->
00:30:05,352
And we want students to have
social time and recess and all those
682
00:30:05,352 -->
00:30:05,872
kinds of things.
683
00:30:05,872 -->
00:30:07,912
So you're going to want to
bring in your nutrition folks and
684
00:30:07,912 -->
00:30:08,952
talk about this comp.
685
00:30:08,952 -->
00:30:10,112
It's complex.
686
00:30:11,312 -->
00:30:12,712
They're all interleaving.
687
00:30:12,712 -->
00:30:16,392
But the thing is, is the time
to consider that is up front in your
688
00:30:16,392 -->
00:30:19,392
implementation phase and bring
those folks in and say, hey, you
689
00:30:19,392 -->
00:30:21,152
know, lunch is really
important to us.
690
00:30:21,712 -->
00:30:23,472
It's a great time for our kids day.
691
00:30:23,472 -->
00:30:24,912
You guys do such a great job.
692
00:30:24,912 -->
00:30:27,472
We want to know, we want you
to know that there's Gonna be some
693
00:30:27,472 -->
00:30:28,032
things going on.
694
00:30:28,032 -->
00:30:30,352
Like our friend Tom Shimmer
has always advocated for this idea
695
00:30:30,352 -->
00:30:33,592
of catch up lunch, you know,
in his book Grading from the Inside
696
00:30:33,592 -->
00:30:33,832
Out.
697
00:30:33,832 -->
00:30:38,272
Well, you wouldn't want to do
that in isolation of your nutrition
698
00:30:38,672 -->
00:30:39,952
department supervision.
699
00:30:40,032 -->
00:30:40,352
Right.
700
00:30:40,352 -->
00:30:41,152
And safety.
701
00:30:41,582 -->
00:30:43,582
So, I mean, there's just some
things that you can think through
702
00:30:43,902 -->
00:30:46,662
on the front end that, you
know, what you can predict, you can
703
00:30:46,662 -->
00:30:46,982
prevent.
704
00:30:46,982 -->
00:30:47,262
Right.
705
00:30:47,262 -->
00:30:49,462
All good administrators would
have a good sense of what those things
706
00:30:49,462 -->
00:30:49,982
would be.
707
00:30:50,302 -->
00:30:53,182
We're just highlighting that,
you know, nothing happens in isolation.
708
00:30:53,582 -->
00:30:57,102
And even though grading is a
form of communication, it has implications
709
00:30:57,182 -->
00:31:00,422
across your system, which is
maybe why it's complex.
710
00:31:00,422 -->
00:31:02,982
But I think we could learn
from others and try some different
711
00:31:02,982 -->
00:31:05,022
ideas that have been pretty successful.
712
00:31:05,262 -->
00:31:06,542
I mean, every.
713
00:31:06,702 -->
00:31:09,142
All good educators steal good,
great ideas from one another.
714
00:31:09,142 -->
00:31:13,472
It's part of what makes our
industry awesome in the, in the vocation.
715
00:31:13,632 -->
00:31:17,712
So try not to scare people
away from the world.
716
00:31:17,792 -->
00:31:20,312
Well, yeah, well, you know,
that's, that's why we're doing this
717
00:31:20,312 -->
00:31:23,392
podcast, Chad, like you said,
just to share, you know, our years
718
00:31:23,392 -->
00:31:23,872
of experience.
719
00:31:24,032 -->
00:31:26,872
Put it out there in audio,
video format for others to say, all
720
00:31:26,872 -->
00:31:28,352
right, this is where we're at.
721
00:31:28,672 -->
00:31:31,832
What's our next step with,
yeah, you know, getting started or
722
00:31:31,832 -->
00:31:32,872
refining grading form.
723
00:31:32,872 -->
00:31:34,712
But we haven't laid it all out there.
724
00:31:34,712 -->
00:31:37,312
I think there's one more step
that, that viewers and listeners
725
00:31:37,312 -->
00:31:38,032
need to hear, Chad.
726
00:31:38,032 -->
00:31:38,712
It's all right.
727
00:31:38,712 -->
00:31:40,032
We've got the grading purpose statement.
728
00:31:41,072 -->
00:31:43,472
We've got our list of three to
five grading policies.
729
00:31:44,112 -->
00:31:48,152
We're talking about the master
schedule, the intervention systems,
730
00:31:48,152 -->
00:31:50,352
the extracurricular
applications, all those systematic
731
00:31:50,352 -->
00:31:50,672
things.
732
00:31:51,392 -->
00:31:52,952
Can we get this done in one year?
733
00:31:52,952 -->
00:31:54,952
We just got, you know, just
like roll it out in one year.
734
00:31:54,952 -->
00:31:55,712
It's going to be great.
735
00:31:56,592 -->
00:31:59,312
Chad, I know that again,
you've been involved in schools that
736
00:31:59,312 -->
00:32:03,192
were refining this over, you
know, five years later, seven years
737
00:32:03,192 -->
00:32:05,642
later, and that's my
experience as well.
738
00:32:06,602 -->
00:32:11,082
Chad, is it fair to say that a
school, a district needs to commit
739
00:32:11,082 -->
00:32:13,722
to this implementation over
multiple years?
740
00:32:13,722 -->
00:32:15,162
Is that, is that fair to say?
741
00:32:15,322 -->
00:32:17,762
Yeah, I think we can safely
say that now.
742
00:32:17,762 -->
00:32:20,882
There's obviously exceptions
to every kind of.
743
00:32:20,882 -->
00:32:21,922
It's not even a rule.
744
00:32:21,922 -->
00:32:24,362
It's just thinking about
school reform.
745
00:32:26,442 -->
00:32:29,722
In my years of school
improvement, just in my own practice
746
00:32:30,082 -->
00:32:32,402
professionally, you know, one
of the things I've observed is the
747
00:32:32,402 -->
00:32:33,682
seasonality of our work.
748
00:32:33,842 -->
00:32:36,362
You know, a lot of
administrators work 12 months, but
749
00:32:36,362 -->
00:32:38,882
the people on those committees
and guiding coalitions and so forth,
750
00:32:38,882 -->
00:32:39,442
they don't.
751
00:32:40,722 -->
00:32:44,042
So when you design
implementation, most organizations
752
00:32:44,042 -->
00:32:49,242
can take a 12 month outlook,
24 months, you can do that if you
753
00:32:49,242 -->
00:32:51,562
want to, but you're not going
to have all the players at the table
754
00:32:51,562 -->
00:32:54,282
and you're not going to have
all your customers there to start
755
00:32:54,282 -->
00:32:55,442
implementation right away.
756
00:32:56,142 -->
00:32:58,142
And so I think you need to
take that into consideration.
757
00:32:58,622 -->
00:32:58,942
Really.
758
00:32:58,942 -->
00:33:03,422
You have much more of a, of a
reduced timeline to actually make
759
00:33:03,422 -->
00:33:05,022
some changes in some communications.
760
00:33:05,582 -->
00:33:09,382
You can communicate all you
want June 30th to your parents and
761
00:33:09,382 -->
00:33:13,702
stakeholders, but they're not
focused on that at all.
762
00:33:13,702 -->
00:33:16,462
And in fact, it's a little bit
disingenuous to do that.
763
00:33:17,742 -->
00:33:19,982
And then on the flip side, you
might say, well, we're going to start
764
00:33:19,982 -->
00:33:21,262
with fresh start in August.
765
00:33:21,742 -->
00:33:24,822
And then you run the risk of
having all this change or communication
766
00:33:24,822 -->
00:33:26,302
lost in the shuffle of
everything else.
767
00:33:27,172 -->
00:33:29,612
So I mean, those are things
you have to think about that over
768
00:33:29,612 -->
00:33:29,892
time.
769
00:33:29,892 -->
00:33:34,132
You kind of just need more
opportunities and more varied opportunities
770
00:33:34,772 -->
00:33:37,332
like parent teacher
conferences, if they happen in person.
771
00:33:37,332 -->
00:33:39,492
Do we have many informational sessions?
772
00:33:39,492 -->
00:33:42,932
Do we have tables that are
sort of just giving information out?
773
00:33:42,932 -->
00:33:46,852
Because one of the things you
can do is just to my point previously,
774
00:33:47,732 -->
00:33:50,652
when you are thinking about
reforming to some more modernized
775
00:33:50,652 -->
00:33:53,492
greeting practices, you can
put your feet in the water a little
776
00:33:53,492 -->
00:33:53,812
bit.
777
00:33:54,852 -->
00:33:56,932
You can start saying, you
know, we're just going to pick on
778
00:33:56,932 -->
00:34:00,452
a couple of things that are
aligned to the principles we're developing.
779
00:34:00,692 -->
00:34:02,292
It's not even a policy yet.
780
00:34:02,532 -->
00:34:06,932
We're just going to say what
would happen if there everybody just
781
00:34:06,932 -->
00:34:09,532
did one assignment this week
that we just didn't calculate for
782
00:34:09,532 -->
00:34:10,052
a grade.
783
00:34:10,212 -->
00:34:11,572
And let's just observe.
784
00:34:11,732 -->
00:34:13,012
Start small, start small.
785
00:34:13,252 -->
00:34:14,372
Just, just what do they do?
786
00:34:14,372 -->
00:34:15,332
What do you notice?
787
00:34:15,332 -->
00:34:17,572
Because a lot of times we just
need to do a little bit of action
788
00:34:17,572 -->
00:34:20,132
research of our own myths and misconceptions.
789
00:34:20,792 -->
00:34:21,512
That takes time.
790
00:34:22,712 -->
00:34:24,552
You just can't speed up trust either.
791
00:34:25,032 -->
00:34:29,832
Like reform requires trusts
and trust between your organization,
792
00:34:29,912 -->
00:34:35,192
your students because it is a
communication device and it holds
793
00:34:35,192 -->
00:34:39,912
some intrinsic and extrinsic
value for different stakeholders.
794
00:34:40,632 -->
00:34:44,832
You're talking about, like it
or not, a system of currency for
795
00:34:44,832 -->
00:34:48,702
a lot of families and schools
that, that feel like that currency
796
00:34:48,702 -->
00:34:51,982
and that transactional nature
of grades is being pulled out from
797
00:34:51,982 -->
00:34:52,782
underneath their feet.
798
00:34:52,782 -->
00:34:54,942
So you're going to need some
Runway for that.
799
00:34:56,862 -->
00:34:59,542
And again too, one of the
things you want to be able to do
800
00:34:59,542 -->
00:35:03,101
to fight against that sort of
implementation program like implementing
801
00:35:03,101 -->
00:35:06,942
is systems aren't done that way.
802
00:35:07,022 -->
00:35:12,422
Systems change require time to
build any law over time.
803
00:35:12,422 -->
00:35:16,062
So I mean, I think that's,
that's why that that staggered implementation
804
00:35:16,062 -->
00:35:18,262
and we, I don't say there's a
magic number.
805
00:35:18,262 -->
00:35:22,502
I mean, I, I think I've seen
districts that are really becoming
806
00:35:22,902 -->
00:35:26,262
a pandemic was tricky because
it sort of interrupted or kick started
807
00:35:26,342 -->
00:35:27,982
different, different pieces.
808
00:35:27,982 -->
00:35:30,462
I don't know how many
districts I talked to Matt that are
809
00:35:30,462 -->
00:35:33,182
like we were on this great
path and then it interrupted our
810
00:35:33,182 -->
00:35:33,422
work.
811
00:35:33,422 -->
00:35:33,782
Right.
812
00:35:33,782 -->
00:35:34,502
Then Covid.
813
00:35:34,502 -->
00:35:35,222
Then Covid.
814
00:35:36,022 -->
00:35:38,422
And I think that's just a
reality that every.
815
00:35:38,662 -->
00:35:39,662
Everybody has to deal with.
816
00:35:39,662 -->
00:35:43,502
That was in that in some
instances it's inspired and kickstarted
817
00:35:43,502 -->
00:35:47,472
a lot of modern grading reform
because it exposed a lot of flaws
818
00:35:47,552 -->
00:35:50,472
from distance learning and in
capturing what kids actually can
819
00:35:50,472 -->
00:35:51,352
know or do themselves.
820
00:35:51,352 -->
00:35:54,192
And we don't know who's doing
the rest and also some inequities.
821
00:35:56,112 -->
00:36:02,872
But for the most part, you
know, it's an evolution so that you
822
00:36:02,872 -->
00:36:06,392
are living on a timeline that
is good for a variety of stakeholders
823
00:36:06,392 -->
00:36:07,632
on that continuum of change.
824
00:36:09,312 -->
00:36:12,152
And it gives you an
opportunity also to develop an onboarding
825
00:36:12,152 -->
00:36:12,432
system.
826
00:36:12,432 -->
00:36:14,192
You talked about onboarding faculty.
827
00:36:14,192 -->
00:36:16,812
I think it's important to have
a great onboarding for students and
828
00:36:16,812 -->
00:36:18,092
families who are new to your community.
829
00:36:18,652 -->
00:36:20,892
Yep, that is a big, big.
830
00:36:21,052 -->
00:36:24,012
And because most likely the
first time they're going to learn
831
00:36:24,012 -->
00:36:27,612
that standards based grading
or whatever grading reform you're
832
00:36:27,612 -->
00:36:29,852
doing is different is when
something goes awry from what they're
833
00:36:29,852 -->
00:36:32,732
used to and that's not a good experience.
834
00:36:33,052 -->
00:36:34,812
Yeah, I don't want to get too
far ahead.
835
00:36:34,812 -->
00:36:37,252
I know that in episode four,
we're going to talk about really
836
00:36:37,252 -->
00:36:39,132
kind of the sustaining element
of all this.
837
00:36:39,132 -->
00:36:39,692
That's right.
838
00:36:39,692 -->
00:36:40,172
Yeah.
839
00:36:40,252 -->
00:36:43,092
Right now for those that are
listening, it's just important to
840
00:36:43,092 -->
00:36:46,252
know that like as they embark
upon it or get restarted on it, that
841
00:36:46,442 -->
00:36:48,442
yeah, it's going to take
multiple years.
842
00:36:48,602 -->
00:36:52,882
And I just, you know, give a
shout out to one school district
843
00:36:52,882 -->
00:36:55,922
I've been talking a lot with
and they're just kind of, you know,
844
00:36:55,922 -->
00:37:00,282
rolling it up from one grade
band to the next and they're just
845
00:37:00,282 -->
00:37:02,122
like building the capacity in
their leaders.
846
00:37:02,522 -->
00:37:06,322
Even though they're in year
one, they're saying we're, we have
847
00:37:06,322 -->
00:37:08,522
a tight plan for what year
one's gonna look like.
848
00:37:08,602 -->
00:37:11,282
We don't know all the details
about what year two.
849
00:37:11,282 -->
00:37:14,602
We've got these ideas and we
just know there's going to be a year
850
00:37:14,602 -->
00:37:14,882
three.
851
00:37:14,882 -->
00:37:16,682
Think of that institutional commitment.
852
00:37:16,842 -->
00:37:20,322
Right when district level
people are saying, we know it's going
853
00:37:20,322 -->
00:37:21,562
to take multiple years.
854
00:37:21,642 -->
00:37:26,522
That just gives confidence in
staff, in community members, all
855
00:37:26,522 -->
00:37:26,922
that stuff.
856
00:37:26,922 -->
00:37:29,562
I know we'll talk more about,
you know, what all that can look
857
00:37:29,562 -->
00:37:29,762
like.
858
00:37:29,762 -->
00:37:32,602
Even next episode is going to
be a good one, Chad.
859
00:37:32,602 -->
00:37:33,242
I know that.
860
00:37:33,562 -->
00:37:33,922
Yeah.
861
00:37:33,922 -->
00:37:34,762
Hot diggity dang.
862
00:37:34,762 -->
00:37:38,242
No, we can dig into our book
and all that good stuff of communicating
863
00:37:38,242 -->
00:37:40,612
with parents, but I want to
give all those good details away.
864
00:37:40,612 -->
00:37:41,892
You want to wrap us up, Chad, or.
865
00:37:42,852 -->
00:37:45,092
Yeah, I mean, it's, it's all
good stuff.
866
00:37:45,092 -->
00:37:47,812
I mean, you said at the, at
the end of episode one, this is gonna
867
00:37:47,812 -->
00:37:48,852
be like going to the ice cream shop.
868
00:37:48,852 -->
00:37:51,772
We're gonna get a little bit
of sampling and see and I, I just
869
00:37:51,772 -->
00:37:55,052
had to dive ahead to Rocky
Road or whatever it might might be.
870
00:37:55,052 -->
00:37:58,652
That's your favorite flavor of
learning around this work.
871
00:37:58,652 -->
00:38:00,052
You know, we, we love the work.
872
00:38:01,012 -->
00:38:04,212
It's not without challenge,
but we hope that we're able to share
873
00:38:04,212 -->
00:38:08,252
some nuggets with folks who
bring their own level of expertise
874
00:38:08,252 -->
00:38:09,052
and experience.
875
00:38:09,452 -->
00:38:11,612
There's just so many folks out there.
876
00:38:11,852 -->
00:38:16,932
We're just one of few, two of
you that, that have continued to
877
00:38:16,932 -->
00:38:19,452
have the opportunity to share
and there's so many, many others.
878
00:38:20,572 -->
00:38:23,772
We want to thank all of you
who have joined us so far.
879
00:38:23,772 -->
00:38:25,532
We hope you're really enjoying it.
880
00:38:26,012 -->
00:38:29,052
Again, big shout out to our
sponsors and of course Forward Ed
881
00:38:29,132 -->
00:38:31,852
and all the great folks over
there putting this together.
882
00:38:32,602 -->
00:38:36,122
And if you need anything from
us, we're available on LinkedIn and
883
00:38:36,122 -->
00:38:36,442
X.
884
00:38:36,842 -->
00:38:39,242
You can check out Matt's
website, of course.
885
00:38:39,722 -->
00:38:43,482
And we just thank you for
being great friends and followers.
886
00:38:43,482 -->
00:38:47,442
We look forward to episode
three and four and with that, we
887
00:38:47,442 -->
00:38:49,482
wish you the best of luck in
your endeavors.
888
00:38:49,482 -->
00:38:51,322
Matt, I'll see you next time.
889
00:38:51,642 -->
00:38:52,402
Sounds great, Jay.
890
00:38:52,402 -->
00:38:53,242
Looking forward to it already.
891
00:38:54,522 -->
00:38:57,322
Thanks for spending time in
the comments on the Forward Ed Network.
892
00:38:57,892 -->
00:39:00,492
You've been listening to
Modern Grading Reform, a miniseries
893
00:39:00,492 -->
00:39:02,692
with Dr. Chad Lang and Dr.
Matt Townsley.
894
00:39:02,932 -->
00:39:06,492
Honest conversations,
practical insights, and better communication
895
00:39:06,492 -->
00:39:07,092
about learning.
896
00:39:07,492 -->
00:39:10,092
Join us for the next episode
and find even more on the Forward
897
00:39:10,092 -->
00:39:10,772
Ed Network.
