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Speaker 1: Relationship issues relationship Talk on seven two.
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Speaker 2: So on our relationship feature this morning, we are discussing how to handle a situation where you question your sexuality while you're in a relationship or marriage, and experts often say that it's completely normal to question your sexuality. It can become far more complicated, though, when those questions emerge while you're already in a committed, monogamous relationship.
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Speaker 3: That's what they say.
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Speaker 2: So for people in committed relationships, finding out that your partner is questioning their sexuality can be shocking news. I can only imagine that it's so shocking to the person as well who is experiencing that this can bring confusion, uncertainty, even fear, not only about who you are, but about what it means for the relationship that you are already in. And there are many people who believe that discovering who you are must happen when you settle down. I mean, but human attraction is fluid, right, and can change at any age, So exploring these new feelings does not necessarily mean that your current relationship was a lie or that you love your partner any less. But what happens when you're trying to understand your sexuality while also trying to protect a relationship that you value. Do you tell your partner do you need to act on those feelings to understand them? And how do you even navigate the uncertainty without hitting yourself or the person that you love. So I'd like to know from you this morning on oh one one eight eight three h seven oh two, what's ups on? Seven two seven oh two one seven oh two? Have you ever questioned your sexuality while you were already in a relationship and what did you do afterwards? Because they are people who, for instance, will be in heterosexual marriages or relationship and during the course of that relationship they realize that actually I'm attracted to, you know, people of the same sex, and they either do that on the side or they decide to end the relationship or marriage. And sometimes it doesn't even happen through a conversation. And I'd like to know how it's happened with you, if that's what you If that's what you you you experienced, did your partner sit you down? Did you sit your partner down and say, hey, this is what's going on. I'm beginning to you know, this is what I'm realizing about myself. Now, was it a difficult conversation? I want you to give us a call please on OH one one eight eight three h seven oh two. You can send what's ups on OH seven to seven O two one seven oh two. Casey Blake is a registered counseller and sexologist who's going to guide us through this complex conversation. Casey, Welcome to the show.
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Speaker 4: Good Morning, Morning Listeners, Happy Friday.
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Speaker 2: So how common is it for people to question their sexuality after they are already in a committed relationship or marriage.
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Speaker 4: Pretty common, actually, I think we get stuck on the myth that sexuality is decided in our adolescence or young adulthood, and it stays like that forever and there's no space to ask yourself any questions. But the reality is we often don't have time, emotional space, emotional safety to even think about these things as adolescents and young adults until we are in long term relationships or later on, and then something happens around you, You hear something, something triggers and you go, wait, am I actually straight? And I think the biggest thing is don't panic.
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Speaker 2: So when I introduced this conversation earlier in the morning, and I said, this is what we're going to talk about. Someone sent treat a DM and said to be honest with you. In my case, this person on Twitter says, in my case, I knew before I even got into my marriage that I was gay, but I thought maybe I'm going to be able to pray it away. And I really wanted children in a family, And once I was in, it was very tough because I did love my wife and I loved my children, but I also knew that I wasn't living really ye authentic life. So a day instance as well, so many people get in knowing one hundred.
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Speaker 4: I think we have to remember that our society, as much as is becoming more and more comfortable with people who are not heterosexual. And I'm gonna get to like we'll start with it. Maybe compulsory heterosexuality is the idea, and I often use the term heteronormativity. It's the same idea where the norm is to be straight. So if you are not normal, you have all kinds of feelings. And in a society that's based on being so many different ways to be normal and yet so few ways, we want belonging, we want acceptance, and if you are in a space where there is homophobia, subtle or not so subtle. If there's a space where it, you know, the conversations around you are always talking about sexuality as a choice and a lifestyle rather than a part of who you are. You do try to pray it away, you do try and live it and like you know, fake it till you make it. But you can't fix something you're not.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, sure, so okay, Now let's go back then to just people who find themselves questioning that is it the case of someone who is stray to questions whether they may be attracted to the same sex or can it happen in you know, same sex relationship where someone also questions and wonders, I wonder if I'm not straight, am I really attracted to this?
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Speaker 4: I'm gonna I'm going to push back a little bit and say maybe it's not one or the other. So a lot of the time we also live in a world that is what we call biphobic. There's a lot of bisexual invisibility and by erasure and this idea that we have to be gay or straight right, and a lot of people whatever their dominant sexual identity, that they are within when they are in their relationships might be going well, maybe maybe it's not just this person. Maybe I'm attracted to other genders too, so it's not necessarily a I'm no longer attracted to you that I'm also await huh what does this mean about me? And I think that's the thing is we jump ahead and we panic about what does it mean about the relationship, and I'm like, whoof that's together? Because this is about you first. Primarily, this is information and congratulations on having the emotional safety to be able to think about it, because we can't think about things until we can think about that.
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Speaker 2: Can you imagine, though, how nerve waking that could be for people who don't even understand even the concept of bisexuality, because, as you say, it's almost like you raise that and often when people say, oh, I'm bisexual, you know, the criticism is, oh, yeah.
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Speaker 3: But you must choose what.
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Speaker 4: You are gay later?
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Speaker 3: Is that what they say?
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Speaker 4: That's one of the things. So the idea of a phase that having to be monosexual, right is the ideal. It's part of the normativity of heteronormativity. You have to choose one, and there's a right answer on what you choose, right, So for people who are attracted to more than one gender, their identity is almost always invisible because if they're dating someone of the same gender, they're assumed to be gay. If they're dating someone of a different gender, they are assumed to be stricted.
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Speaker 2: Okay, so we often assume, you know, that by the time someone settles in a long term relationship or they're getting in a marriage, they have already figured out their sexuality. But is that realistic? I mean, can sexuality evolve or become clearer as we get older and have different life experiences.
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Speaker 4: I think there's so many layers to that question. So one of them is, yes, adolescence and the young. Adulthood is a long period of time, right, However, there is so much to navigate. In psychology. We talk about identity formation that happens when you're a teenager, but it actually happens throughout life because as you are exposed to more information. I think you and I've had our harm moments in our conversations over the years we're like, huh, I didn't realize about myself and that is something about your sexuality that language, conversations representation. Having access to all these different things means there's access to possibilities, and a possibility means you have the option to consider it. Is that a possibility for you? So talking about bisexual, pan sexual, the umbrella of queerness and queer identities, this stuff wasn't available in the way that it is now, and it's still quite stigmatized in most spaces.
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Speaker 2: Unfortunately, I've got some whatsaps already coming from our listeners, so please put on your headphones. You can send your whatsaps on oh seven to seven or two on seven oh two. Please feel free to call us as well. Maybe you want to share your experience with us, or maybe it's an experience someone close to your head that's sort of close to the subject matter we're discussing on our relationship for each other morning. How do you handle a situation where you question your sexuality while in a relationship marriage and some of you maybe you started questioning and you decided, okay, I you know, we have to divorce or the relationship ends because this is a trajectory you're taking now. Or maybe you just wanted to have an honest conversation with your partner about what you're thinking about, what you're experiencing, what you're feeling. How did that conversation go? Let's start with what's ups on? Oh seven two seven or two and seven or two?
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Speaker 1: This is anonymous from Albertin like on the same topic that you are discussing with your guests. Like, I just want to ask, like he's a straight guy or as a straight man, likes it normal, like to have dreams like every now and then, I would say, like three or two times a year being intimated with another man.
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Speaker 3: You see, it happens to me, It happens.
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Speaker 1: I want to lie like intimate, like in a dream with another man, and it's always someone that you know. Is that a colleague or a friend or just a guy that you know randomly own acquaintance.
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Speaker 3: Well, and it.
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Speaker 1: Always feels I want to say, it always feels good, but it feels okay during that time, I would only feel confused as soon as I wake up from that dream. I wasn't asking me because like, is this even normal or is it it now of some sort?
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Speaker 2: Oh, thank you so much, and thank you for being brave enough to also just send the what's up? And you know, I can only imagine that even in the confusion, but you're still brave enough to say, this is a question that I really have, because, as you know, Casey, some people tend to.
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Speaker 3: Be shy when we talk about this.
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Speaker 2: So this is someone who says they consider themselves straight, but they sometimes have dreams. He says, twice or so a year they would have a dream where they are intimate with someone, whether someone they know, some a colleague at work, and acquaintance. And he's not saying it seems like it's amazing in the dream, but he says it's good.
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Speaker 4: Is that normal? Your dreams are normal whatever you're dreaming, and it doesn't have to mean that there's a situation in the dream is identical to what you desire. Dreams are just a way for us to process the information in our worlds on an unconscious level, so they're really important. So I've got a few thoughts that come up. The one is about sexual identity versus sexual engagement and behavior. So you can be straight and still enjoy the idea or actual engagement of sexual activity with other men, because that's not your primary sexual attraction, and it's not your romantic attraction. So we often conflate and confuse romantic attraction and sexual attraction is one thing. So maybe you want to have romantic and sexual relationships. Relationships is an important word here with women as a man, but you are not closed off to the idea of the occasional engagement with a man. It's a sexual engagement. There doesn't have to be feelings. That's the one thought in the idea of thinking about dreams as not an one to one meaning. What came up for me is how so in our culture and cultures generally, there's not a lot of space for men to be emotionally intimate and vulnerable with each other. And the way that men are taught to be intimate is through sex with women. So maybe you want to have a deeper friendship, or you're thinking about this person on a deeper level, on an emotional level, and the only way your brain can make sense of it is through the ways that you know how meten are allowed to be intimate. So I'm not saying that's what it is. That's just what came up for me is how often our dreams might be thinking might be showing us things that we're thinking about in the best way we can access them.
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Speaker 2: Because you know, and I'm raising this because someone says here on the what's on the What's Up Blind Height Clement responding to the person who sent us a voice, and it says, please tell him it's okay to be gay. And I'm raising this because I think you know some in and that's why I was praising that listener, because I know how these things go whenever you are open to to sort of express an experience like that, and then someone else will say, yeah, there's no way you can dream being intimate with another man and you're not gay, you know. And I think this then gets people to stop being so honest about the experience. Is because we're so quick to label people.
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Speaker 4: So there's this idea that one encounter makes you something, or one desire makes you something, despite your history of desires and encounters, like it's you're and absolutely it's okay to be gay. But the reason I brought up that it's not necessarily the case in this case is because he identifies as straight as heterosexual, and there's no way to say I'm an affirming person without sounding defensive, So I'm not going to go there. But like, all orientations are legitimate, and your orientation and your sexuality is made out of so many different things, and like I mentioned the different levels of attraction who you want to have relationships with, and there's no wrong way to do that as long as everyone's able to consent.
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Speaker 3: Yeah.
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Speaker 2: Another message says height Liment over twenty years ago, I found myself attracted to a woman. I panicked because I am Christian, but I told her about it. I suggested that we stop being friends because it was a new friendship. I then went on a two year long period of fasting and prayer, hoping to get over the attraction. The attraction intensified with time, and we ended up in a relationship. The complication was that she was in a heterosexual relationship before and during our relationship. We were not young. I was in my mid twenties and she was in her mid thirties. It was complicated, and I don't wish it for anyone. That's a sage from Anonymous. This woman who says ten years ago she found herself attracted to another woman and she was Christian.
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Speaker 3: It was tough.
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Speaker 2: Spent two years fasting and praying until couldn't pray that away, and they ended up in a relationship. Yead And it seems it was complicated there. But you know what, Anonymous, if you can. Do you mind maybe sharing more with us about where your life is now, Like are you in the same sex relationship now? Or are you in a heterosexual relationship? Just helped me understand that because you're saying here that I don't wish this for anyone. It was so complicated. I'd like to hear from you if you don't mind sending us another message.
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Speaker 4: Can I add to the question for anonymous as to also like, how did you feel about yourself in that relationship? If you look at the cheating aside and the needing to hide because of the cheating, what was it like for you? How did you feel in the relationship? What were the different very confusing and conflicting, often contradicting you had about yourself at the time, if you remember and looking back on it now twenty years later, that's it.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, Please, if you don't mind send us send us that message. But this as a message reminding me of the stories I often heard among ladies, like if I'm in like in my social circles, when you know, at a dinner table, when I'm hearing some ladies speak, there are some ladies who will say I kissed a girl at some point when I was at university or at some point in my life, but that didn't necessarily, you know, define them as it's just an experience that they mentioned that they've had, or what do you say to people who have experienced that, whether it's women at some point who kissed other women or men who found themselves, you know, doing something with men back in the day and now they often have to go back to that memory and they use that to question whether or not they are straight. Now, is that something that's normal because because kids do can get to be experimental, right.
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Speaker 4: So, oh, so many different thing thoughts. Yeah, I'm going to try and capture as many as i can because the squirrels run away with me. So there's the layer of our society has the male gaze, where like, if we think about a lot of the pornography that's produced, it's with men's desires in mind, which often fetishizes women same gender relationships. So it is more socially acceptable for women to experiment than it is under this gaze because it's very attractive for the normative man. There's some desires about I'm going to make you straight somehow. I don't know what of it, but the experimentation is more socially permitted amongst women, but often in the context of just to check, just to see, and that could be just an experience, it could be by erasure, like in terms of this as a bisexual person, and I have to erase my bisexuality to be heterosexual. Now, if you had attractive feelings like your sexuality, you remember, attraction is more than your orientation, right, more than your identity. I mean, your identity is so much more than just who you are attracted to and what you engage in. I think we have to look at how did you feel in the moment? Were you curious? What were the thoughts were you like, how upon reflection, were you able to enjoy the memory? Or are there shame feelings about it because of the sameness and the genders? Like how would you feel if it wasn't a same sex interaction? Like what makes it different for you? Does that make sense? Like? Yeah, there are.
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Speaker 2: So many later So when you go back to that feeling that moment, how does it make you feel?
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Speaker 3: Is it shame? Yeah?
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Speaker 2: Because I do find that with women they are very comfortable to even talk about it. It's like, oh, but I can only imagine that if a man would say that, table full of men, the reaction will probably be different. In fact, I don't think they would even be comfortable to.
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Speaker 4: Say that because on a table full of heterosexual men, Because a lot of the heteronormative stuff around men is to police other men's sexuality right and expression of masculinity. You can't do that. That's two women like that's and even saying that's too gay to a heterosexual man. It's using gayness as an insult. It's saying you're less than somehow. So the way that men police other men, I think it takes so much courage to even say that in that kind of context.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, I've got so many messages that are coming through, so we're going to get the latest denial witness use headlines when we come back. I see your messages on oh seven two seven two one seven oh to keep them coming. Your calls as well on oh one one eight eight three oh seven oh, to please share your experiences with us. You know, we have these uncomfortable conversations because these are necessary. And I choose these uncomfortable conversations because I know that in many spaces there's no space for us to have those conversations, and I always want us to go there where a lot of people don't want us to go to. Today, we're talking about how to handle the situation where you question your sexuality while in a relationship or marriage, because it does happen, and some people end up deciding to leave the relationship. And as you heard earlier when we started this conversation, some people entered relationships and marriages knowing that they're not, you know, heterosexuals, and then you know, during that relationship, that's when they realize that, you know, I'm not living an authentic life and I need to make some changes. And sometimes you have conversations with your partners sometimes you don't how have you navigated a scenario like that? Oh one one eight eight three oh seven oh two? What's ups on? Oh seven two seven oh two one seven oh two?
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Speaker 4: Relationship issues?
00:21:56
Speaker 3: Relationship talk.
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Speaker 4: I'm seven o two.
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Speaker 2: Twenty five minutes for twelve o clock on our relationship each other. This morning, we are having a conversation about what you do and how you handle a situation where you are questioning your sexuality while you're in a relationship or marriage. And my guest this morning, Casey Blake, who's a registered counsel and sexologist, says, well, that's normal. Just the first thing you have to do, take time to breathe and know that it's normal. We got a voice note earlier from a listener who says, you know, I consider myself a straight man. And he says, but he sometimes dreams being you know, he's got dreams where he's intimate with men like it happens, you know, twice or so in a year. And he was just asking, is this normal or not? So I want to go to some of your messages that have come through and also into seven or two and seven or two. As we continue this conversation, there's one person here on the what's up line who says, high Clement and Casey there, I have secretly dated straight slash married heterosexual guys before, most of whom doubted or we're not sure of their sexuality. I am an openly gay guy, all right. So this is an openly gay guy who has secretly dated straight, married heterosexual guys before, most of whom doubted or we're not sure of their sexuality. So I guess that's why he described them as straight slash merried, because you know, they're straight, they're married.
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Speaker 4: But well they're in heterosexual presenting relationships, right, So like, if we look at the relationship, we often assign a sexuality, like I said earlier, with bisexual identities being erased, because if you are with someone of the opposite gender, you are assumed to be heterosexual because it's a heterosexual presenting relationship if you're in the same sex situation. So I would say that you know, he's been, he's been dating people who have self identified as straight are in heterosexual looking relationships, but they're not sure. And my big question here is what are you not sure about? Because are like is it pressure to be either? Or is it like shame from society? Is it like are you allowed to within yourself? So you know, I actually am attracted to my wife and men, maybe mostly men, but also my wife. There's like the other person who messaged in we love and sex can be very separate. They don't have to be together, which is why relationships don't necessarily have to end, but there has to be conversations if it's going to go forward, there needs to be like what's in it for us still with this information? What changes for us with this information?
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Speaker 2: So what do you do then, Casey, if you find yourself in that situation. So I understand what you say that take a moment and breathe. But what if you realize that actually I'm not as straight as I thought I was. Maybe maybe I'm actually attracted to the same sex and you're already in a long term relationship or marriage. Is it best to just especially when you're not ready to have that conversation because some men will say or women will say, I wasn't ready to sit my person down that I've been in a relationship with for so long and we've raised this children, so I.
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Speaker 3: Decided to leave.
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Speaker 2: But the problem is when you leave like that and you start then dating same sex, you know, you start being in same sex relationships, then that is seen as a betrayal to this person that you never had a conversation with.
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Speaker 4: So would you advise what are you avoiding? Right? Because the consequences you have forced the consequences right. So my one of my questions is, while we're breathing, when I say, what does this information mean? Do you want to have experiences with other people? Is the relationship monogamus absolutely full stop, no space for exploration outside that's okay. If it is right, then you can make these decisions and say, well, I've learned this thing about myself. I don't want to leave the relationship. I've learned this about myself, and I don't think I'm attracted you anymore. Like we have to look at your identity primary, then the impact on the relationship, because if you don't think about yourself first, you're making decisions on everyone's behalf when you don't even have your own answers. Yet.
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Speaker 2: Some are thinking about their children, thinking who's going to father my children? If I decide to live an authentic life.
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Speaker 4: You know, will this mean that you're going to be excluded from your children because of the society or the particular social spaces you're in are incredibly discriminatory. You know, will you be excluded from your child's life or not? There's so many things to consider. So I would say if you have access to a mental healthcare professional who is LGBT affirming, right, because if you go to someone who's not, they're going to pray the gay away with you and not give you the space to explore and think about it. Because all the mental health professional will do is give you the space to be like, Okay, what does this information mean? What do we do with it? How does this change you? Right?
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Speaker 2: So remember that listener Anonymous who sent us a message and said, twenty years ago, I found myself attracted to a woman. I panicked and I fusted and prayed for two years because I'm Christian. It didn't go away, and we ended up in a relationship, but they broke up and it was complicated, and we asked her to send another message. She sent it now and she says a follow up here, Clement, I am currently not in a relationship, but if I wait to be in a relationship, I would prefer a woman. It was hard and shameful for me to be in that relationship. I hit it from oh, I was hiding it from everyone around me. At first, I was even ashamed to go to church because of what the Bible says about homosexuality. It was only after the relationship ended that I was exposed to the LGBTQI plus Christian community and Christian books that are addressing the issue. I am no longer ashamed that I am attracted to women, but I am not bold enough to get back into a relationship. Wow, oh, thank you sir much, I've made so much progress.
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Speaker 4: There's so much and you say progress, but I yes, absolutely, But sometimes the word progress puts so much pressure on us. Right, So I'm gonna say that you've made so much space for yourself right to look at how you can be gay, lesbian, straight, trans, queer, and a Christian right. Religion and sexuality do not have to be at fighting with each other, right, But being scared to enter that space again, I completely get it because now you you've entered that space, you've found acceptance for who you are. But does your family share those values? Because what I'm hearing, and I hope I'm not making too many assumptions I trying to name them instead of making them, is that your social circles may not have shifted in the same way You're worried about the impacts of not being straight at work, with your family, with your extended family, like all the different social spaces. Will that support shift or go away? Is it threatened? Yeah, That's what I'm hearing when she says I don't have the courage to do it, to get like openly, maybe I'm misunderstanding her.
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Speaker 2: And maybe you know she'll create more space for herself and she'll get to a point where she's more confident and she can embrace who she really is and also have another opportunity at love. By the way, this conversation, yes, will be put on podcast I see some people are asking one message on the WhatsApp blind says, please can you avail this conversation on podcasts? My girlfriend just changed their station? Why is your girlfriend changing the station?
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Speaker 4: This feels like when your parents cover your eyes.
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Speaker 2: Because on generations. Yeah, don't worry, anonymous. We will make this conversation available on podcasts. You can check it out after the show. So, casey, how do we then distinguish between sexual curiosity, fantasy emotional connection, and sexual or romantic attraction, because then it can be confusing which is which, Like when is it curiosity? When is it just fantasy? Or when is it like real emotional connection?
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Speaker 4: So fantasy. I mean, this is not a simple question, and we don't have time. I mean we could have weeks of conversations and not coverage. But I would say fantasies are the things that you think about that turn you on, not necessarily things you want to do. So one of my favorite examples around fantasies is a lot of people have waterfall fantasies, like wanting to have sex by a waterfall behind a waterfall, but in reality waterfalls can be terrifying. So they go on these fancy dates and they go to this waterfall because they've shared this fantasy with their partner and they're like, I don't want actually to be that's muddy and no, no, no, no no, But the fantasy still turns them on. So fantasies don't have to be reality. They can just be things that turn you on. When it comes to curiosity, you're wanting to experience it because you're not sure. Maybe you'll like it, maybe you won't, but you're open to finding out.
00:31:47
Speaker 2: But if you're not ready to finding out, it can still curiosity. Because that listener who sent us a voice note says, I dream of this thing and it's not a bad experience. In the dream, I'm straight, but I'm intimate with a guy in the dream and it's not bad.
00:32:00
Speaker 4: It's not bad in the dream, it's good. But in his waking life does he is he curious about those engagements or is it curious about the fact that he dreamt about it more than the actual engagement, because your curiosity is what you want to do when you're awake, as like the fantasies or what you think about that turns you on. The things you watch, the things you read informs us. But you're going to find the things you like the behavior you do. A lot of men go, I like bum sex, this is quite yummy. Am I gay? And it's only so called gay sex. I don't even know what that means if it's with another man, but then it's just the sex act with another man. It doesn't make you anything.
00:32:43
Speaker 2: There are men who've often called on this show and raise concerns. There was a time we were discussing infect anal sex on the show, and the men who were calling in saying, we've you know, I've stopped like a man would call and said, I've stopped asking my partner that we do that because every time she looks at me weirdly and would one day, like a day later, will question me and say, are you sure that you're straight? Because I said, let's explore anal sex. And I've had women who also call in and say, I'm too worried to do that too often with my partner because what if what does it mean?
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Speaker 1: Right?
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Speaker 4: What does it mean? And I always say that the bomber is the great neutralizer. Everyone has an anus, so anal stimulation can be pleasurable for anyone who is open to thinking about it and wanting to do it. Please remember always lube. The more lube, the better. The way to the better is always the thing, regardless of your body, like what parts you have. Otherwise, men who are people who are signed male at birth have a prostate, you can like, the best way to access it is internally a finger deep like it just means that that's their way of getting a different kind of orgasm, different kind of pleasure. That's all at means means if we look at what we are looking at as what we what it means? Does that a that makeing sense? So you're worried it's going to turn someone gay. We can't do that. If we could, then conversion therapy would work. And it doesn't actually just torture. We can't turn someone into any kind of sexual orientation. That's not how it works.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, Oh one one eight eight three oh seven oh two, that's the number two dial you can send what's ups on? Oh seven two seven oh two one seven oh two. Have you found yourself in a situation where you are questioning your sexuality? Maybe something that happened a while back, and when you go back to it, you it often makes you wonder whether you you know you are straight or not? Let me know on oh one eight eight three h seven oh two. How have you handled something like this in your relationship? In your marriage? Believe it or not, it does happen where people sometimes leave relationships. So they sit their partners down and they say, this is who I am, and how are we going to manage and handle this going forward? Is that something you've been exposed to, something you've been involved in?
00:35:09
Speaker 3: Let me know. You can send what's ups and seven two seven o two, seven o two.
00:35:13
Speaker 2: It's tough before twelve relationship issues relationship talk on seven o two, ten minutes before twelve out lock. All right, I've got some of your messages coming through on the WhatsApp line. Who's this is this? Anonymous? Says a high Clement. Okay, it's not anonymous, High Clement. I'm Taboo from soweto Ish. This is a difficult topic. I am a three year old man living a strange life. People know me as a straight guy. Gassie Bantula, that's my lifestyle. But I'm interested that they know me to be interested in women. But deep down in my heart, I know that it lies. Actually I'm interested in a man. I wish to try it some other day, but I'm scared of what people are going to say. They're going to talk about me. Please can you advise me? Ask your guests to advise me. All right, Tabo, thank you for your message. So Tabo is from Soweto. He says, you know, this is really a difficult topic for him because clearly he can relate to He's steady. He says, he's known in his community as this you know township Masula, you know, hyperstrate man who's interested in women. But he says, dip down. I know I'm interested in men, and I wish to try it some other day, but I'm scared of what people are going to say about me. Please can you advise sure cay see any advice for Tabo?
00:36:49
Speaker 4: Tabo, thank you so much for coming and bringing your name into this as well. So lots of thoughts. The one people know you as a straight man, and it sounds like in your community, in your section of sweto because sweat is not small. Gay men aren't spoken about well, is what I'm hearing underneath. So I'm curious about the ways you've heard different kinds of men be spoken about in the community. What does it mean in terms of your manlihood in the community to be gay or to not be straight, or to be interested in men? We don't even have to put labels. Labels are great, but they also limitations. So I'm hearing so much conflict in terms of the sense of belonging. Earlier we spoke about heteronormativity or compulsory heterosexuality. What a beautiful example.
00:37:43
Speaker 3: Right.
00:37:44
Speaker 4: He knows that the best way to belong is to be what is considered normal. And there is a very real threat that I'm hearing of exclusion, of discrimination, of being joked, like a lot of prejudice, right, And it breaks my heart because these ideas of normal have created so few ways for people to exist and be accepted. I don't think there's anything wrong with you. I think it's really hard to hide who you are because you deep down what you also know is that the people who love you and like you love and like you for who they think you are and who you think they need you to be so nobody really knows you. Not that your sexuality is all of it that you are, but when you're hiding a part of yourself. I often call it the grain of sand in your shoe. It's one part of you. But we all know how huge an impact one piece of gray of sand can have in our shoe. It makes it feel so big.
00:38:51
Speaker 3: So what does he do now?
00:38:53
Speaker 2: Because I can only imagine maybe he's feeling because maybe even in his friendship group there's no one. Maybe that he can even talk to you because the very same friends are going to judge him.
00:39:02
Speaker 3: Or where do you go? Do you speak to your mom, your dad? They're probably going to judge you?
00:39:08
Speaker 4: Can can you access some affirmative mental health care? I recently came across an engineer called queer Well. I think it's of course it's I can see her name. It's the doctor who runs quad Care, ah doctor from m Quaqua. I'm so s sorry I can't remember your first name right now. There's there's an organization that offers free counseling to people who are exploring and are scared. Queer Queer Well, queer Well, I will find the link.
00:39:41
Speaker 3: For you, Okay, cool, but I think if they google.
00:39:43
Speaker 4: Queer, well, but there's so many ngrs. There's out they've also just reopened and Brohm like, there's so many spaces you just have to look for them. But if you can access mental health care that is affirming, it'll help you figure out how much of you it's true that people know, and how much of that will shift with this information if you are open about it yourself.
00:40:06
Speaker 2: I do want, just before we wrap up, to talk about, you know, ethical non monogamy, because there are sometimes you know, people who decide in their marriages or relationships that you know, yes, I'm realizing that I'm you know, I'm questioned my sexuality or I'm actually clear on what my sexuality is. And I don't want to lose my wife. I don't want to lose my husband. I want to maintain and keep this marriage or relationship, but I also want to be able to, you know, satisfy this other part of me. What's your advice to people who find themselves in those shoes? How do you handle that well?
00:40:44
Speaker 4: If you want to stay in the relationship and your partner is happy to stay in the relationship and you are and you're both happy with the idea of you exploring your sexuality with people of a different gender to your partner, then it's there's so many different ways to do that. Consensual non monogamy is about the consent. Everybody involved knows what's happening, consents to the activity outside of this partnership, right, of the multiple different ways you can do it without it being a relationship. You can do it with it being a relationship. There's so many ways. But if you're just curious on a sexual level, there's so many ways you can do this. You can even do it together in a swinging context, if that's something swinging context. So swinging is the umbrella term for sexual non monogamy, but romantic monogamy.
00:41:37
Speaker 3: So sexual non monogamy.
00:41:41
Speaker 4: So the partnership, right, the couple enjoys having sex with other people.
00:41:47
Speaker 3: But they can together or together, so you can do it on your own.
00:41:51
Speaker 4: Sometimes you can. There's lot every each couple has their own rules. But if you want to both explore a woman, then you can to get if you both want to explore man together, if you.
00:42:02
Speaker 3: Don't have to do that, if you're not interested.
00:42:04
Speaker 4: You don't have to do it. But if you're not interested, like, these are just so many ways to explore. You can do it alone, you can. There's so many ways. But the big thing is upfront conversations, and everyone's so scared of that, right so everyone, like you said, so many people just up and leave, and it's not necessarily the only option because monogamy is also compulsory as normal.
00:42:27
Speaker 2: Look, thank you so much for giving us this website. I think that's going to be helpful to a few people listening, because I do see people are sending us messages, but some are scared to send a voice, not to tell us who they are. So go to it's queer well dot org. So www dot queer well dot org. Go check that out and hopefully you can find someone to speak to.
00:42:52
Speaker 3: Caseie.
00:42:53
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for coming through. Thank you for always guiding us through these you know, difficult, uncomfortable, but necessary conversations. We're always learning from you. I appreciate your time.
00:43:03
Speaker 4: Thank you so much. Always happy spite minutes before talk
Speaker 1: Relationship issues relationship Talk on seven two.
00:00:05
Speaker 2: So on our relationship feature this morning, we are discussing how to handle a situation where you question your sexuality while you're in a relationship or marriage, and experts often say that it's completely normal to question your sexuality. It can become far more complicated, though, when those questions emerge while you're already in a committed, monogamous relationship.
00:00:35
Speaker 3: That's what they say.
00:00:36
Speaker 2: So for people in committed relationships, finding out that your partner is questioning their sexuality can be shocking news. I can only imagine that it's so shocking to the person as well who is experiencing that this can bring confusion, uncertainty, even fear, not only about who you are, but about what it means for the relationship that you are already in. And there are many people who believe that discovering who you are must happen when you settle down. I mean, but human attraction is fluid, right, and can change at any age, So exploring these new feelings does not necessarily mean that your current relationship was a lie or that you love your partner any less. But what happens when you're trying to understand your sexuality while also trying to protect a relationship that you value. Do you tell your partner do you need to act on those feelings to understand them? And how do you even navigate the uncertainty without hitting yourself or the person that you love. So I'd like to know from you this morning on oh one one eight eight three h seven oh two, what's ups on? Seven two seven oh two one seven oh two? Have you ever questioned your sexuality while you were already in a relationship and what did you do afterwards? Because they are people who, for instance, will be in heterosexual marriages or relationship and during the course of that relationship they realize that actually I'm attracted to, you know, people of the same sex, and they either do that on the side or they decide to end the relationship or marriage. And sometimes it doesn't even happen through a conversation. And I'd like to know how it's happened with you, if that's what you If that's what you you you experienced, did your partner sit you down? Did you sit your partner down and say, hey, this is what's going on. I'm beginning to you know, this is what I'm realizing about myself. Now, was it a difficult conversation? I want you to give us a call please on OH one one eight eight three h seven oh two. You can send what's ups on OH seven to seven O two one seven oh two. Casey Blake is a registered counseller and sexologist who's going to guide us through this complex conversation. Casey, Welcome to the show.
00:02:59
Speaker 4: Good Morning, Morning Listeners, Happy Friday.
00:03:03
Speaker 2: So how common is it for people to question their sexuality after they are already in a committed relationship or marriage.
00:03:11
Speaker 4: Pretty common, actually, I think we get stuck on the myth that sexuality is decided in our adolescence or young adulthood, and it stays like that forever and there's no space to ask yourself any questions. But the reality is we often don't have time, emotional space, emotional safety to even think about these things as adolescents and young adults until we are in long term relationships or later on, and then something happens around you, You hear something, something triggers and you go, wait, am I actually straight? And I think the biggest thing is don't panic.
00:03:52
Speaker 2: So when I introduced this conversation earlier in the morning, and I said, this is what we're going to talk about. Someone sent treat a DM and said to be honest with you. In my case, this person on Twitter says, in my case, I knew before I even got into my marriage that I was gay, but I thought maybe I'm going to be able to pray it away. And I really wanted children in a family, And once I was in, it was very tough because I did love my wife and I loved my children, but I also knew that I wasn't living really ye authentic life. So a day instance as well, so many people get in knowing one hundred.
00:04:36
Speaker 4: I think we have to remember that our society, as much as is becoming more and more comfortable with people who are not heterosexual. And I'm gonna get to like we'll start with it. Maybe compulsory heterosexuality is the idea, and I often use the term heteronormativity. It's the same idea where the norm is to be straight. So if you are not normal, you have all kinds of feelings. And in a society that's based on being so many different ways to be normal and yet so few ways, we want belonging, we want acceptance, and if you are in a space where there is homophobia, subtle or not so subtle. If there's a space where it, you know, the conversations around you are always talking about sexuality as a choice and a lifestyle rather than a part of who you are. You do try to pray it away, you do try and live it and like you know, fake it till you make it. But you can't fix something you're not.
00:05:38
Speaker 2: Yeah, sure, so okay, Now let's go back then to just people who find themselves questioning that is it the case of someone who is stray to questions whether they may be attracted to the same sex or can it happen in you know, same sex relationship where someone also questions and wonders, I wonder if I'm not straight, am I really attracted to this?
00:06:04
Speaker 4: I'm gonna I'm going to push back a little bit and say maybe it's not one or the other. So a lot of the time we also live in a world that is what we call biphobic. There's a lot of bisexual invisibility and by erasure and this idea that we have to be gay or straight right, and a lot of people whatever their dominant sexual identity, that they are within when they are in their relationships might be going well, maybe maybe it's not just this person. Maybe I'm attracted to other genders too, so it's not necessarily a I'm no longer attracted to you that I'm also await huh what does this mean about me? And I think that's the thing is we jump ahead and we panic about what does it mean about the relationship, and I'm like, whoof that's together? Because this is about you first. Primarily, this is information and congratulations on having the emotional safety to be able to think about it, because we can't think about things until we can think about that.
00:07:10
Speaker 2: Can you imagine, though, how nerve waking that could be for people who don't even understand even the concept of bisexuality, because, as you say, it's almost like you raise that and often when people say, oh, I'm bisexual, you know, the criticism is, oh, yeah.
00:07:24
Speaker 3: But you must choose what.
00:07:25
Speaker 4: You are gay later?
00:07:28
Speaker 3: Is that what they say?
00:07:29
Speaker 4: That's one of the things. So the idea of a phase that having to be monosexual, right is the ideal. It's part of the normativity of heteronormativity. You have to choose one, and there's a right answer on what you choose, right, So for people who are attracted to more than one gender, their identity is almost always invisible because if they're dating someone of the same gender, they're assumed to be gay. If they're dating someone of a different gender, they are assumed to be stricted.
00:08:00
Speaker 2: Okay, so we often assume, you know, that by the time someone settles in a long term relationship or they're getting in a marriage, they have already figured out their sexuality. But is that realistic? I mean, can sexuality evolve or become clearer as we get older and have different life experiences.
00:08:20
Speaker 4: I think there's so many layers to that question. So one of them is, yes, adolescence and the young. Adulthood is a long period of time, right, However, there is so much to navigate. In psychology. We talk about identity formation that happens when you're a teenager, but it actually happens throughout life because as you are exposed to more information. I think you and I've had our harm moments in our conversations over the years we're like, huh, I didn't realize about myself and that is something about your sexuality that language, conversations representation. Having access to all these different things means there's access to possibilities, and a possibility means you have the option to consider it. Is that a possibility for you? So talking about bisexual, pan sexual, the umbrella of queerness and queer identities, this stuff wasn't available in the way that it is now, and it's still quite stigmatized in most spaces.
00:09:30
Speaker 2: Unfortunately, I've got some whatsaps already coming from our listeners, so please put on your headphones. You can send your whatsaps on oh seven to seven or two on seven oh two. Please feel free to call us as well. Maybe you want to share your experience with us, or maybe it's an experience someone close to your head that's sort of close to the subject matter we're discussing on our relationship for each other morning. How do you handle a situation where you question your sexuality while in a relationship marriage and some of you maybe you started questioning and you decided, okay, I you know, we have to divorce or the relationship ends because this is a trajectory you're taking now. Or maybe you just wanted to have an honest conversation with your partner about what you're thinking about, what you're experiencing, what you're feeling. How did that conversation go? Let's start with what's ups on? Oh seven two seven or two and seven or two?
00:10:25
Speaker 1: This is anonymous from Albertin like on the same topic that you are discussing with your guests. Like, I just want to ask, like he's a straight guy or as a straight man, likes it normal, like to have dreams like every now and then, I would say, like three or two times a year being intimated with another man.
00:10:42
Speaker 3: You see, it happens to me, It happens.
00:10:44
Speaker 1: I want to lie like intimate, like in a dream with another man, and it's always someone that you know. Is that a colleague or a friend or just a guy that you know randomly own acquaintance.
00:10:58
Speaker 3: Well, and it.
00:10:59
Speaker 1: Always feels I want to say, it always feels good, but it feels okay during that time, I would only feel confused as soon as I wake up from that dream. I wasn't asking me because like, is this even normal or is it it now of some sort?
00:11:16
Speaker 2: Oh, thank you so much, and thank you for being brave enough to also just send the what's up? And you know, I can only imagine that even in the confusion, but you're still brave enough to say, this is a question that I really have, because, as you know, Casey, some people tend to.
00:11:30
Speaker 3: Be shy when we talk about this.
00:11:32
Speaker 2: So this is someone who says they consider themselves straight, but they sometimes have dreams. He says, twice or so a year they would have a dream where they are intimate with someone, whether someone they know, some a colleague at work, and acquaintance. And he's not saying it seems like it's amazing in the dream, but he says it's good.
00:11:52
Speaker 4: Is that normal? Your dreams are normal whatever you're dreaming, and it doesn't have to mean that there's a situation in the dream is identical to what you desire. Dreams are just a way for us to process the information in our worlds on an unconscious level, so they're really important. So I've got a few thoughts that come up. The one is about sexual identity versus sexual engagement and behavior. So you can be straight and still enjoy the idea or actual engagement of sexual activity with other men, because that's not your primary sexual attraction, and it's not your romantic attraction. So we often conflate and confuse romantic attraction and sexual attraction is one thing. So maybe you want to have romantic and sexual relationships. Relationships is an important word here with women as a man, but you are not closed off to the idea of the occasional engagement with a man. It's a sexual engagement. There doesn't have to be feelings. That's the one thought in the idea of thinking about dreams as not an one to one meaning. What came up for me is how so in our culture and cultures generally, there's not a lot of space for men to be emotionally intimate and vulnerable with each other. And the way that men are taught to be intimate is through sex with women. So maybe you want to have a deeper friendship, or you're thinking about this person on a deeper level, on an emotional level, and the only way your brain can make sense of it is through the ways that you know how meten are allowed to be intimate. So I'm not saying that's what it is. That's just what came up for me is how often our dreams might be thinking might be showing us things that we're thinking about in the best way we can access them.
00:13:43
Speaker 2: Because you know, and I'm raising this because someone says here on the what's on the What's Up Blind Height Clement responding to the person who sent us a voice, and it says, please tell him it's okay to be gay. And I'm raising this because I think you know some in and that's why I was praising that listener, because I know how these things go whenever you are open to to sort of express an experience like that, and then someone else will say, yeah, there's no way you can dream being intimate with another man and you're not gay, you know. And I think this then gets people to stop being so honest about the experience. Is because we're so quick to label people.
00:14:26
Speaker 4: So there's this idea that one encounter makes you something, or one desire makes you something, despite your history of desires and encounters, like it's you're and absolutely it's okay to be gay. But the reason I brought up that it's not necessarily the case in this case is because he identifies as straight as heterosexual, and there's no way to say I'm an affirming person without sounding defensive, So I'm not going to go there. But like, all orientations are legitimate, and your orientation and your sexuality is made out of so many different things, and like I mentioned the different levels of attraction who you want to have relationships with, and there's no wrong way to do that as long as everyone's able to consent.
00:15:11
Speaker 3: Yeah.
00:15:12
Speaker 2: Another message says height Liment over twenty years ago, I found myself attracted to a woman. I panicked because I am Christian, but I told her about it. I suggested that we stop being friends because it was a new friendship. I then went on a two year long period of fasting and prayer, hoping to get over the attraction. The attraction intensified with time, and we ended up in a relationship. The complication was that she was in a heterosexual relationship before and during our relationship. We were not young. I was in my mid twenties and she was in her mid thirties. It was complicated, and I don't wish it for anyone. That's a sage from Anonymous. This woman who says ten years ago she found herself attracted to another woman and she was Christian.
00:16:06
Speaker 3: It was tough.
00:16:07
Speaker 2: Spent two years fasting and praying until couldn't pray that away, and they ended up in a relationship. Yead And it seems it was complicated there. But you know what, Anonymous, if you can. Do you mind maybe sharing more with us about where your life is now, Like are you in the same sex relationship now? Or are you in a heterosexual relationship? Just helped me understand that because you're saying here that I don't wish this for anyone. It was so complicated. I'd like to hear from you if you don't mind sending us another message.
00:16:38
Speaker 4: Can I add to the question for anonymous as to also like, how did you feel about yourself in that relationship? If you look at the cheating aside and the needing to hide because of the cheating, what was it like for you? How did you feel in the relationship? What were the different very confusing and conflicting, often contradicting you had about yourself at the time, if you remember and looking back on it now twenty years later, that's it.
00:17:06
Speaker 2: Yeah, Please, if you don't mind send us send us that message. But this as a message reminding me of the stories I often heard among ladies, like if I'm in like in my social circles, when you know, at a dinner table, when I'm hearing some ladies speak, there are some ladies who will say I kissed a girl at some point when I was at university or at some point in my life, but that didn't necessarily, you know, define them as it's just an experience that they mentioned that they've had, or what do you say to people who have experienced that, whether it's women at some point who kissed other women or men who found themselves, you know, doing something with men back in the day and now they often have to go back to that memory and they use that to question whether or not they are straight. Now, is that something that's normal because because kids do can get to be experimental, right.
00:18:00
Speaker 4: So, oh, so many different thing thoughts. Yeah, I'm going to try and capture as many as i can because the squirrels run away with me. So there's the layer of our society has the male gaze, where like, if we think about a lot of the pornography that's produced, it's with men's desires in mind, which often fetishizes women same gender relationships. So it is more socially acceptable for women to experiment than it is under this gaze because it's very attractive for the normative man. There's some desires about I'm going to make you straight somehow. I don't know what of it, but the experimentation is more socially permitted amongst women, but often in the context of just to check, just to see, and that could be just an experience, it could be by erasure, like in terms of this as a bisexual person, and I have to erase my bisexuality to be heterosexual. Now, if you had attractive feelings like your sexuality, you remember, attraction is more than your orientation, right, more than your identity. I mean, your identity is so much more than just who you are attracted to and what you engage in. I think we have to look at how did you feel in the moment? Were you curious? What were the thoughts were you like, how upon reflection, were you able to enjoy the memory? Or are there shame feelings about it because of the sameness and the genders? Like how would you feel if it wasn't a same sex interaction? Like what makes it different for you? Does that make sense? Like? Yeah, there are.
00:19:42
Speaker 2: So many later So when you go back to that feeling that moment, how does it make you feel?
00:19:47
Speaker 3: Is it shame? Yeah?
00:19:49
Speaker 2: Because I do find that with women they are very comfortable to even talk about it. It's like, oh, but I can only imagine that if a man would say that, table full of men, the reaction will probably be different. In fact, I don't think they would even be comfortable to.
00:20:06
Speaker 4: Say that because on a table full of heterosexual men, Because a lot of the heteronormative stuff around men is to police other men's sexuality right and expression of masculinity. You can't do that. That's two women like that's and even saying that's too gay to a heterosexual man. It's using gayness as an insult. It's saying you're less than somehow. So the way that men police other men, I think it takes so much courage to even say that in that kind of context.
00:20:36
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, I've got so many messages that are coming through, so we're going to get the latest denial witness use headlines when we come back. I see your messages on oh seven two seven two one seven oh to keep them coming. Your calls as well on oh one one eight eight three oh seven oh, to please share your experiences with us. You know, we have these uncomfortable conversations because these are necessary. And I choose these uncomfortable conversations because I know that in many spaces there's no space for us to have those conversations, and I always want us to go there where a lot of people don't want us to go to. Today, we're talking about how to handle the situation where you question your sexuality while in a relationship or marriage, because it does happen, and some people end up deciding to leave the relationship. And as you heard earlier when we started this conversation, some people entered relationships and marriages knowing that they're not, you know, heterosexuals, and then you know, during that relationship, that's when they realize that, you know, I'm not living an authentic life and I need to make some changes. And sometimes you have conversations with your partners sometimes you don't how have you navigated a scenario like that? Oh one one eight eight three oh seven oh two? What's ups on? Oh seven two seven oh two one seven oh two?
00:21:55
Speaker 4: Relationship issues?
00:21:56
Speaker 3: Relationship talk.
00:21:57
Speaker 4: I'm seven o two.
00:21:59
Speaker 2: Twenty five minutes for twelve o clock on our relationship each other. This morning, we are having a conversation about what you do and how you handle a situation where you are questioning your sexuality while you're in a relationship or marriage. And my guest this morning, Casey Blake, who's a registered counsel and sexologist, says, well, that's normal. Just the first thing you have to do, take time to breathe and know that it's normal. We got a voice note earlier from a listener who says, you know, I consider myself a straight man. And he says, but he sometimes dreams being you know, he's got dreams where he's intimate with men like it happens, you know, twice or so in a year. And he was just asking, is this normal or not? So I want to go to some of your messages that have come through and also into seven or two and seven or two. As we continue this conversation, there's one person here on the what's up line who says, high Clement and Casey there, I have secretly dated straight slash married heterosexual guys before, most of whom doubted or we're not sure of their sexuality. I am an openly gay guy, all right. So this is an openly gay guy who has secretly dated straight, married heterosexual guys before, most of whom doubted or we're not sure of their sexuality. So I guess that's why he described them as straight slash merried, because you know, they're straight, they're married.
00:23:35
Speaker 4: But well they're in heterosexual presenting relationships, right, So like, if we look at the relationship, we often assign a sexuality, like I said earlier, with bisexual identities being erased, because if you are with someone of the opposite gender, you are assumed to be heterosexual because it's a heterosexual presenting relationship if you're in the same sex situation. So I would say that you know, he's been, he's been dating people who have self identified as straight are in heterosexual looking relationships, but they're not sure. And my big question here is what are you not sure about? Because are like is it pressure to be either? Or is it like shame from society? Is it like are you allowed to within yourself? So you know, I actually am attracted to my wife and men, maybe mostly men, but also my wife. There's like the other person who messaged in we love and sex can be very separate. They don't have to be together, which is why relationships don't necessarily have to end, but there has to be conversations if it's going to go forward, there needs to be like what's in it for us still with this information? What changes for us with this information?
00:24:51
Speaker 2: So what do you do then, Casey, if you find yourself in that situation. So I understand what you say that take a moment and breathe. But what if you realize that actually I'm not as straight as I thought I was. Maybe maybe I'm actually attracted to the same sex and you're already in a long term relationship or marriage. Is it best to just especially when you're not ready to have that conversation because some men will say or women will say, I wasn't ready to sit my person down that I've been in a relationship with for so long and we've raised this children, so I.
00:25:23
Speaker 3: Decided to leave.
00:25:24
Speaker 2: But the problem is when you leave like that and you start then dating same sex, you know, you start being in same sex relationships, then that is seen as a betrayal to this person that you never had a conversation with.
00:25:36
Speaker 4: So would you advise what are you avoiding? Right? Because the consequences you have forced the consequences right. So my one of my questions is, while we're breathing, when I say, what does this information mean? Do you want to have experiences with other people? Is the relationship monogamus absolutely full stop, no space for exploration outside that's okay. If it is right, then you can make these decisions and say, well, I've learned this thing about myself. I don't want to leave the relationship. I've learned this about myself, and I don't think I'm attracted you anymore. Like we have to look at your identity primary, then the impact on the relationship, because if you don't think about yourself first, you're making decisions on everyone's behalf when you don't even have your own answers. Yet.
00:26:26
Speaker 2: Some are thinking about their children, thinking who's going to father my children? If I decide to live an authentic life.
00:26:35
Speaker 4: You know, will this mean that you're going to be excluded from your children because of the society or the particular social spaces you're in are incredibly discriminatory. You know, will you be excluded from your child's life or not? There's so many things to consider. So I would say if you have access to a mental healthcare professional who is LGBT affirming, right, because if you go to someone who's not, they're going to pray the gay away with you and not give you the space to explore and think about it. Because all the mental health professional will do is give you the space to be like, Okay, what does this information mean? What do we do with it? How does this change you? Right?
00:27:15
Speaker 2: So remember that listener Anonymous who sent us a message and said, twenty years ago, I found myself attracted to a woman. I panicked and I fusted and prayed for two years because I'm Christian. It didn't go away, and we ended up in a relationship, but they broke up and it was complicated, and we asked her to send another message. She sent it now and she says a follow up here, Clement, I am currently not in a relationship, but if I wait to be in a relationship, I would prefer a woman. It was hard and shameful for me to be in that relationship. I hit it from oh, I was hiding it from everyone around me. At first, I was even ashamed to go to church because of what the Bible says about homosexuality. It was only after the relationship ended that I was exposed to the LGBTQI plus Christian community and Christian books that are addressing the issue. I am no longer ashamed that I am attracted to women, but I am not bold enough to get back into a relationship. Wow, oh, thank you sir much, I've made so much progress.
00:28:24
Speaker 4: There's so much and you say progress, but I yes, absolutely, But sometimes the word progress puts so much pressure on us. Right, So I'm gonna say that you've made so much space for yourself right to look at how you can be gay, lesbian, straight, trans, queer, and a Christian right. Religion and sexuality do not have to be at fighting with each other, right, But being scared to enter that space again, I completely get it because now you you've entered that space, you've found acceptance for who you are. But does your family share those values? Because what I'm hearing, and I hope I'm not making too many assumptions I trying to name them instead of making them, is that your social circles may not have shifted in the same way You're worried about the impacts of not being straight at work, with your family, with your extended family, like all the different social spaces. Will that support shift or go away? Is it threatened? Yeah, That's what I'm hearing when she says I don't have the courage to do it, to get like openly, maybe I'm misunderstanding her.
00:29:42
Speaker 2: And maybe you know she'll create more space for herself and she'll get to a point where she's more confident and she can embrace who she really is and also have another opportunity at love. By the way, this conversation, yes, will be put on podcast I see some people are asking one message on the WhatsApp blind says, please can you avail this conversation on podcasts? My girlfriend just changed their station? Why is your girlfriend changing the station?
00:30:12
Speaker 4: This feels like when your parents cover your eyes.
00:30:14
Speaker 2: Because on generations. Yeah, don't worry, anonymous. We will make this conversation available on podcasts. You can check it out after the show. So, casey, how do we then distinguish between sexual curiosity, fantasy emotional connection, and sexual or romantic attraction, because then it can be confusing which is which, Like when is it curiosity? When is it just fantasy? Or when is it like real emotional connection?
00:30:47
Speaker 4: So fantasy. I mean, this is not a simple question, and we don't have time. I mean we could have weeks of conversations and not coverage. But I would say fantasies are the things that you think about that turn you on, not necessarily things you want to do. So one of my favorite examples around fantasies is a lot of people have waterfall fantasies, like wanting to have sex by a waterfall behind a waterfall, but in reality waterfalls can be terrifying. So they go on these fancy dates and they go to this waterfall because they've shared this fantasy with their partner and they're like, I don't want actually to be that's muddy and no, no, no, no no, But the fantasy still turns them on. So fantasies don't have to be reality. They can just be things that turn you on. When it comes to curiosity, you're wanting to experience it because you're not sure. Maybe you'll like it, maybe you won't, but you're open to finding out.
00:31:47
Speaker 2: But if you're not ready to finding out, it can still curiosity. Because that listener who sent us a voice note says, I dream of this thing and it's not a bad experience. In the dream, I'm straight, but I'm intimate with a guy in the dream and it's not bad.
00:32:00
Speaker 4: It's not bad in the dream, it's good. But in his waking life does he is he curious about those engagements or is it curious about the fact that he dreamt about it more than the actual engagement, because your curiosity is what you want to do when you're awake, as like the fantasies or what you think about that turns you on. The things you watch, the things you read informs us. But you're going to find the things you like the behavior you do. A lot of men go, I like bum sex, this is quite yummy. Am I gay? And it's only so called gay sex. I don't even know what that means if it's with another man, but then it's just the sex act with another man. It doesn't make you anything.
00:32:43
Speaker 2: There are men who've often called on this show and raise concerns. There was a time we were discussing infect anal sex on the show, and the men who were calling in saying, we've you know, I've stopped like a man would call and said, I've stopped asking my partner that we do that because every time she looks at me weirdly and would one day, like a day later, will question me and say, are you sure that you're straight? Because I said, let's explore anal sex. And I've had women who also call in and say, I'm too worried to do that too often with my partner because what if what does it mean?
00:33:20
Speaker 1: Right?
00:33:20
Speaker 4: What does it mean? And I always say that the bomber is the great neutralizer. Everyone has an anus, so anal stimulation can be pleasurable for anyone who is open to thinking about it and wanting to do it. Please remember always lube. The more lube, the better. The way to the better is always the thing, regardless of your body, like what parts you have. Otherwise, men who are people who are signed male at birth have a prostate, you can like, the best way to access it is internally a finger deep like it just means that that's their way of getting a different kind of orgasm, different kind of pleasure. That's all at means means if we look at what we are looking at as what we what it means? Does that a that makeing sense? So you're worried it's going to turn someone gay. We can't do that. If we could, then conversion therapy would work. And it doesn't actually just torture. We can't turn someone into any kind of sexual orientation. That's not how it works.
00:34:22
Speaker 2: Yeah, Oh one one eight eight three oh seven oh two, that's the number two dial you can send what's ups on? Oh seven two seven oh two one seven oh two. Have you found yourself in a situation where you are questioning your sexuality? Maybe something that happened a while back, and when you go back to it, you it often makes you wonder whether you you know you are straight or not? Let me know on oh one eight eight three h seven oh two. How have you handled something like this in your relationship? In your marriage? Believe it or not, it does happen where people sometimes leave relationships. So they sit their partners down and they say, this is who I am, and how are we going to manage and handle this going forward? Is that something you've been exposed to, something you've been involved in?
00:35:09
Speaker 3: Let me know. You can send what's ups and seven two seven o two, seven o two.
00:35:13
Speaker 2: It's tough before twelve relationship issues relationship talk on seven o two, ten minutes before twelve out lock. All right, I've got some of your messages coming through on the WhatsApp line. Who's this is this? Anonymous? Says a high Clement. Okay, it's not anonymous, High Clement. I'm Taboo from soweto Ish. This is a difficult topic. I am a three year old man living a strange life. People know me as a straight guy. Gassie Bantula, that's my lifestyle. But I'm interested that they know me to be interested in women. But deep down in my heart, I know that it lies. Actually I'm interested in a man. I wish to try it some other day, but I'm scared of what people are going to say. They're going to talk about me. Please can you advise me? Ask your guests to advise me. All right, Tabo, thank you for your message. So Tabo is from Soweto. He says, you know, this is really a difficult topic for him because clearly he can relate to He's steady. He says, he's known in his community as this you know township Masula, you know, hyperstrate man who's interested in women. But he says, dip down. I know I'm interested in men, and I wish to try it some other day, but I'm scared of what people are going to say about me. Please can you advise sure cay see any advice for Tabo?
00:36:49
Speaker 4: Tabo, thank you so much for coming and bringing your name into this as well. So lots of thoughts. The one people know you as a straight man, and it sounds like in your community, in your section of sweto because sweat is not small. Gay men aren't spoken about well, is what I'm hearing underneath. So I'm curious about the ways you've heard different kinds of men be spoken about in the community. What does it mean in terms of your manlihood in the community to be gay or to not be straight, or to be interested in men? We don't even have to put labels. Labels are great, but they also limitations. So I'm hearing so much conflict in terms of the sense of belonging. Earlier we spoke about heteronormativity or compulsory heterosexuality. What a beautiful example.
00:37:43
Speaker 3: Right.
00:37:44
Speaker 4: He knows that the best way to belong is to be what is considered normal. And there is a very real threat that I'm hearing of exclusion, of discrimination, of being joked, like a lot of prejudice, right, And it breaks my heart because these ideas of normal have created so few ways for people to exist and be accepted. I don't think there's anything wrong with you. I think it's really hard to hide who you are because you deep down what you also know is that the people who love you and like you love and like you for who they think you are and who you think they need you to be so nobody really knows you. Not that your sexuality is all of it that you are, but when you're hiding a part of yourself. I often call it the grain of sand in your shoe. It's one part of you. But we all know how huge an impact one piece of gray of sand can have in our shoe. It makes it feel so big.
00:38:51
Speaker 3: So what does he do now?
00:38:53
Speaker 2: Because I can only imagine maybe he's feeling because maybe even in his friendship group there's no one. Maybe that he can even talk to you because the very same friends are going to judge him.
00:39:02
Speaker 3: Or where do you go? Do you speak to your mom, your dad? They're probably going to judge you?
00:39:08
Speaker 4: Can can you access some affirmative mental health care? I recently came across an engineer called queer Well. I think it's of course it's I can see her name. It's the doctor who runs quad Care, ah doctor from m Quaqua. I'm so s sorry I can't remember your first name right now. There's there's an organization that offers free counseling to people who are exploring and are scared. Queer Queer Well, queer Well, I will find the link.
00:39:41
Speaker 3: For you, Okay, cool, but I think if they google.
00:39:43
Speaker 4: Queer, well, but there's so many ngrs. There's out they've also just reopened and Brohm like, there's so many spaces you just have to look for them. But if you can access mental health care that is affirming, it'll help you figure out how much of you it's true that people know, and how much of that will shift with this information if you are open about it yourself.
00:40:06
Speaker 2: I do want, just before we wrap up, to talk about, you know, ethical non monogamy, because there are sometimes you know, people who decide in their marriages or relationships that you know, yes, I'm realizing that I'm you know, I'm questioned my sexuality or I'm actually clear on what my sexuality is. And I don't want to lose my wife. I don't want to lose my husband. I want to maintain and keep this marriage or relationship, but I also want to be able to, you know, satisfy this other part of me. What's your advice to people who find themselves in those shoes? How do you handle that well?
00:40:44
Speaker 4: If you want to stay in the relationship and your partner is happy to stay in the relationship and you are and you're both happy with the idea of you exploring your sexuality with people of a different gender to your partner, then it's there's so many different ways to do that. Consensual non monogamy is about the consent. Everybody involved knows what's happening, consents to the activity outside of this partnership, right, of the multiple different ways you can do it without it being a relationship. You can do it with it being a relationship. There's so many ways. But if you're just curious on a sexual level, there's so many ways you can do this. You can even do it together in a swinging context, if that's something swinging context. So swinging is the umbrella term for sexual non monogamy, but romantic monogamy.
00:41:37
Speaker 3: So sexual non monogamy.
00:41:41
Speaker 4: So the partnership, right, the couple enjoys having sex with other people.
00:41:47
Speaker 3: But they can together or together, so you can do it on your own.
00:41:51
Speaker 4: Sometimes you can. There's lot every each couple has their own rules. But if you want to both explore a woman, then you can to get if you both want to explore man together, if you.
00:42:02
Speaker 3: Don't have to do that, if you're not interested.
00:42:04
Speaker 4: You don't have to do it. But if you're not interested, like, these are just so many ways to explore. You can do it alone, you can. There's so many ways. But the big thing is upfront conversations, and everyone's so scared of that, right so everyone, like you said, so many people just up and leave, and it's not necessarily the only option because monogamy is also compulsory as normal.
00:42:27
Speaker 2: Look, thank you so much for giving us this website. I think that's going to be helpful to a few people listening, because I do see people are sending us messages, but some are scared to send a voice, not to tell us who they are. So go to it's queer well dot org. So www dot queer well dot org. Go check that out and hopefully you can find someone to speak to.
00:42:52
Speaker 3: Caseie.
00:42:53
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for coming through. Thank you for always guiding us through these you know, difficult, uncomfortable, but necessary conversations. We're always learning from you. I appreciate your time.
00:43:03
Speaker 4: Thank you so much. Always happy spite minutes before talk
