The Compassionate Equestrian

WEBVTT
00:00:04.360 --> 00:00:07.860
Welcome to the Centaur Podcast. I'm Cameron Nadibi,
00:00:08.140 --> 00:00:10.599
and together we will explore the fascinating
00:00:10.599 --> 00:00:14.119
world of horse -human communication and the extraordinary
00:00:14.119 --> 00:00:16.399
connections they develop between our species.
00:00:17.039 --> 00:00:20.219
Join me as we delve into the unique ways humans
00:00:20.219 --> 00:00:22.640
and horses connect and understand each other.
00:00:22.879 --> 00:00:25.539
Through discussions with true innovators, we
00:00:25.539 --> 00:00:28.739
uncover the subtle cues, bonding techniques,
00:00:29.100 --> 00:00:32.259
and emotional connections. that enrich our relationships
00:00:32.259 --> 00:00:35.259
with these remarkable animals. Whether you are
00:00:35.259 --> 00:00:38.479
a seasoned equestrian or simply curious about
00:00:38.479 --> 00:00:41.039
the language of horses, there's something here
00:00:41.039 --> 00:00:43.719
for everyone. One of the cool things about having
00:00:43.719 --> 00:00:46.479
a podcast is I get to speak with people I would
00:00:46.479 --> 00:00:48.859
never get to speak with otherwise. I got to speak
00:00:48.859 --> 00:00:52.359
with Susan Gordon, who is the co -author of The
00:00:52.359 --> 00:00:55.700
Compassionate Equestrian. Susan was a professional
00:00:55.700 --> 00:01:00.789
hunter jumper trainer from 1983 to 2009. After
00:01:00.789 --> 00:01:04.090
retiring from training and teaching, Susan founded
00:01:04.090 --> 00:01:06.890
Green Pony Productions for the production of
00:01:06.890 --> 00:01:09.750
digital media content relating to social justice
00:01:09.750 --> 00:01:13.189
issues for horses. She writes and blogs regularly
00:01:13.189 --> 00:01:17.090
regarding the 25 principles of compassion, equitation.
00:01:17.730 --> 00:01:19.849
This conversation was so fascinating. I really
00:01:19.849 --> 00:01:22.349
got to learn a lot about the history from Susan
00:01:22.349 --> 00:01:27.829
and why it's become so complicated. Sit back
00:01:27.829 --> 00:01:32.159
and enjoy the show. Thank you so much for, uh,
00:01:32.280 --> 00:01:34.620
joining me today. This is awesome. I'm really
00:01:34.620 --> 00:01:37.599
excited to talk to you. Uh, you just get, you've
00:01:37.599 --> 00:01:41.400
got a really interesting background and off of
00:01:41.400 --> 00:01:44.099
course, you know, an author, I always, uh, I'm
00:01:44.099 --> 00:01:47.200
an aspiring author, you know, but I haven't found
00:01:47.200 --> 00:01:49.420
like you just mentioned on my sub -stacked essays,
00:01:50.040 --> 00:01:52.260
but you've got such a, yeah, you've got such
00:01:52.260 --> 00:01:56.739
a wide experience and very, you know, you were,
00:01:56.859 --> 00:02:01.420
uh, in the professional realm as a trainer and,
00:02:01.719 --> 00:02:04.659
um, all your experiences, I have to ask, right.
00:02:05.299 --> 00:02:07.120
What, you know, what you've seen so much now
00:02:07.120 --> 00:02:10.259
and, um, what has been some of the biggest shift
00:02:10.259 --> 00:02:14.259
in your perception? Um, from all your years,
00:02:15.139 --> 00:02:17.699
you mentioned about, you know, some horses were
00:02:17.699 --> 00:02:21.259
not, you thought all horses might be a trainable.
00:02:21.919 --> 00:02:26.259
Yeah. Changes in the horses over all over the
00:02:26.259 --> 00:02:33.439
decades. Yeah. Um, so many. issues now that uh
00:02:33.439 --> 00:02:36.539
I just I just kind of call a full stop in some
00:02:36.539 --> 00:02:40.240
case or I try it's hard with owners that just
00:02:40.240 --> 00:02:44.939
want to keep the horses going and I just see
00:02:44.939 --> 00:02:50.159
nope can't be done so yeah that's that's a big
00:02:50.159 --> 00:02:53.560
change for me I appreciate that you know this
00:02:53.560 --> 00:02:57.900
is you know I found these old older uh gelding
00:02:58.529 --> 00:03:01.930
And you know, he's he's doing great and but he
00:03:01.930 --> 00:03:04.270
it's definitely not he's not interested, you
00:03:04.270 --> 00:03:08.750
know He had a tough life as a school horse So
00:03:08.750 --> 00:03:10.650
you're like I this is a you know already leading
00:03:10.650 --> 00:03:12.949
to them, you know, like what the what you might
00:03:12.949 --> 00:03:17.569
think of With the future of horses, but and seeing
00:03:17.569 --> 00:03:19.610
them differently but so, you know all these horses
00:03:19.610 --> 00:03:22.050
that you've You've gotten to seen throughout
00:03:22.050 --> 00:03:25.689
your and you were a professional trainer again.
00:03:25.689 --> 00:03:27.969
I want to make that very good. Yeah, because
00:03:28.319 --> 00:03:31.699
Yeah, a lot. Everybody can call, anybody can
00:03:31.699 --> 00:03:33.419
call themselves a trainer nowadays and that we
00:03:33.419 --> 00:03:36.400
do have a lot of the people that. Yes. I'm very
00:03:36.400 --> 00:03:39.879
careful there, by the way. I, uh, cause there
00:03:39.879 --> 00:03:44.240
is also the other side of it that any action
00:03:44.240 --> 00:03:49.699
we do create a response or a reaction. So we
00:03:49.699 --> 00:03:53.879
are like the whole treat training nonsense. It
00:03:53.879 --> 00:03:57.180
still bothers me. I have to learn about it, but
00:03:57.180 --> 00:03:59.120
you, so you've seen all of this, but so, I mean,
00:03:59.439 --> 00:04:02.460
you've got, you talked a little bit beforehand
00:04:02.460 --> 00:04:05.919
or communicated a little bit by email, but I
00:04:05.919 --> 00:04:09.639
asked you because you do have a very classical
00:04:09.639 --> 00:04:13.659
background with training, correct? Yeah. I was
00:04:13.659 --> 00:04:20.040
fortunate to have excellent instruction. Well,
00:04:20.699 --> 00:04:25.899
starting at Spruce Meadows. I had actually it
00:04:25.899 --> 00:04:31.500
was kind of funny story. I was at age 17 president
00:04:31.500 --> 00:04:36.420
of a riding club in Calgary and Spruce Meadows
00:04:36.420 --> 00:04:39.339
showed up to our schooling shows and all of a
00:04:39.339 --> 00:04:42.519
sudden here's you know here I am with Apple who
00:04:42.519 --> 00:04:48.209
said quarter horse show barn, and this huge Mercedes
00:04:48.209 --> 00:04:51.290
horse van pulls up, and these gigantic horses
00:04:51.290 --> 00:04:59.589
come out. And that was my introduction to real
00:04:59.589 --> 00:05:03.230
classical European style horses and training.
00:05:03.689 --> 00:05:07.949
And I was so intrigued, I actually took my horses
00:05:07.949 --> 00:05:11.649
to Spree's Meadows and boarded for a couple of
00:05:11.649 --> 00:05:19.079
years. And yeah, so I had firsthand experience
00:05:19.079 --> 00:05:27.899
with the best. And I studied Podolski. And it
00:05:27.899 --> 00:05:34.509
just became a real passion to. focus on classical,
00:05:34.610 --> 00:05:38.689
real classical training. I had a 15 -hand Appaloosa
00:05:38.689 --> 00:05:42.509
stallion, and the Germans loved him. I started
00:05:42.509 --> 00:05:46.889
him myself. They called him the little Appaloosa,
00:05:47.550 --> 00:05:54.110
and he could move with the bust. It was training,
00:05:54.870 --> 00:05:59.449
exactly what dressage is. It's training. And
00:05:59.449 --> 00:06:04.149
yeah, I love it. That's so cool. You had, so
00:06:04.149 --> 00:06:06.649
you're already a little bit of a rule breaker
00:06:06.649 --> 00:06:08.589
though. Cause you know, bringing in Appaloosa,
00:06:08.589 --> 00:06:12.769
come on, right? I love, I got to work with one.
00:06:13.149 --> 00:06:15.629
He was one of the, he was one of the, he was
00:06:15.629 --> 00:06:18.649
so funny. He was a, he was a jokester. He had
00:06:18.649 --> 00:06:23.230
all these, he totally played jokes. Oh, so did
00:06:23.230 --> 00:06:28.139
mine. Yeah, no kidding. What was his name? His
00:06:28.139 --> 00:06:32.079
registered name was Top Canadian. And he was
00:06:32.079 --> 00:06:36.319
by Top Hat Junior, one of the foundation police
00:06:36.319 --> 00:06:41.920
desires from Texas, I think. And his I called
00:06:41.920 --> 00:06:47.939
him TC. And he was he would do things and anything
00:06:47.939 --> 00:06:53.759
to attract attention to his like Oh, he likes
00:06:53.759 --> 00:06:58.160
to carry flakes of straw. in his mouth. And when
00:06:58.160 --> 00:07:01.180
people would come up to his stall, he'd try to
00:07:01.180 --> 00:07:05.699
stuff the straw through the bars and to the people.
00:07:06.180 --> 00:07:09.779
He always had a crowd of people around his stall
00:07:09.779 --> 00:07:12.959
when the horse shows were on. So I'd have them
00:07:12.959 --> 00:07:15.939
and they'd all follow me to the grooming and
00:07:15.939 --> 00:07:18.939
talking up area and follow me into the arena
00:07:18.939 --> 00:07:23.519
and watch him. But yeah, he was quite something.
00:07:23.870 --> 00:07:27.269
That's quite a horse. Uh, yeah. So, I mean, that
00:07:27.269 --> 00:07:29.730
breed has a very interesting background. Um,
00:07:29.870 --> 00:07:31.850
so that's, I mean, that you just said it, you
00:07:31.850 --> 00:07:35.129
know, dressage in little translation means training.
00:07:35.870 --> 00:07:38.490
And so really it's for any horse, but of course,
00:07:38.670 --> 00:07:40.370
when you think of dressage, oh, it's going to
00:07:40.370 --> 00:07:42.610
be the warm blood or, you know, that's Hanoverian,
00:07:42.670 --> 00:07:47.089
whatever, very, oh, it's really, uh, so, um,
00:07:48.050 --> 00:07:50.779
you got, you got the. Because I love watching
00:07:50.779 --> 00:07:54.480
the old videos of these classical trainers that
00:07:54.480 --> 00:07:57.480
are still around. So you got a taste of that.
00:07:58.160 --> 00:08:00.759
I did. You mentioned one of your, one of the
00:08:00.759 --> 00:08:02.800
people you still turn, or you really respect,
00:08:03.000 --> 00:08:04.920
which I haven't read, but I know of his book,
00:08:05.060 --> 00:08:10.920
My Horse is My Teacher, Colonel Podhowski? Podhowski,
00:08:11.240 --> 00:08:14.740
yeah. I believe that's it. My friend Karen had
00:08:14.740 --> 00:08:17.720
the same kind of training, you know, these military
00:08:17.720 --> 00:08:21.060
men. who were in the war, and he was an Australian
00:08:21.060 --> 00:08:23.300
colonel who then went to the Olympics, but he
00:08:23.300 --> 00:08:29.519
was a trainer. But you mentioned how he had that
00:08:29.519 --> 00:08:32.259
compassion and kindness, which kind of turns
00:08:32.259 --> 00:08:36.519
into your book. Well, there's a lightness. It's
00:08:36.519 --> 00:08:42.100
all about that lightness. And people are so impressed
00:08:42.100 --> 00:08:46.480
with it with writing. bridleless riding and that's
00:08:46.480 --> 00:08:49.299
great if the correctness is still there. It's
00:08:49.299 --> 00:08:53.379
very much um it's a process of development so
00:08:53.379 --> 00:08:57.559
that the horse builds the muscles and the balance
00:08:57.559 --> 00:09:01.840
and the courage to carry a rider and stays sound
00:09:01.840 --> 00:09:07.620
through his lifetime which my horse did and those
00:09:07.620 --> 00:09:12.259
you know the big big warm plugs which are now
00:09:12.330 --> 00:09:17.490
Bread with this weird, huge, huge movement are
00:09:17.490 --> 00:09:22.990
so hard to sit that a lot of people should really
00:09:22.990 --> 00:09:27.350
be going back to smaller courses. My 15th hand,
00:09:27.490 --> 00:09:31.309
Appaloosa, could beat the big Wormbloods and
00:09:31.309 --> 00:09:36.429
thoroughbreds in dressage tests. He was that
00:09:36.429 --> 00:09:41.529
spectacular, but it was making the most of the
00:09:41.629 --> 00:09:45.570
movement that he had, so his natural movement
00:09:45.570 --> 00:09:49.970
perhaps was an eight, so with training I could
00:09:49.970 --> 00:09:54.490
make that a nine or a ten. So these giant worm
00:09:54.490 --> 00:09:57.850
plugs, because they're so hard to sit, they're
00:09:57.850 --> 00:10:02.470
born as a ten, but then they're diminished back
00:10:02.470 --> 00:10:06.970
to, you know, eight or nine or worse if people
00:10:06.970 --> 00:10:09.330
are pulling on them because they're terrified.
00:10:10.240 --> 00:10:14.019
of this huge movement and the back like it's
00:10:14.019 --> 00:10:16.759
like a springboard. It's like you're trying to
00:10:16.759 --> 00:10:20.840
set it, you know, that much movement where it's
00:10:20.840 --> 00:10:24.879
much better. Like the libizones are such close
00:10:24.879 --> 00:10:30.039
coupled little horses. They're tiny, but you
00:10:30.039 --> 00:10:34.419
can make the movement. You get used to like creating
00:10:34.419 --> 00:10:39.059
the free freedom. in the shoulders and freedom
00:10:39.059 --> 00:10:43.200
in the joints and then you have this partnership
00:10:43.200 --> 00:10:46.620
because you're you know you're both bold and
00:10:46.620 --> 00:10:51.100
you're trusting and it's it's fun those big warm
00:10:51.100 --> 00:10:56.539
floods in my experience not so much fun and what
00:10:56.539 --> 00:11:01.100
happened was they took those big the the original
00:11:01.100 --> 00:11:06.879
and variant and which was but hard to say because
00:11:06.879 --> 00:11:13.080
they they floated they literally floated so it's
00:11:13.080 --> 00:11:17.759
been really interesting to watch decades now
00:11:17.759 --> 00:11:23.179
of breeding and reshaping these horses into what
00:11:23.179 --> 00:11:28.200
they are now so yeah it's kind of interesting
00:11:28.200 --> 00:11:30.740
but a lot of people probably shouldn't be riding
00:11:30.740 --> 00:11:33.690
them I get that. I get that. So, I mean, this
00:11:33.690 --> 00:11:37.889
is again, you have a very long history and you've
00:11:37.889 --> 00:11:40.330
got to see this. And I only read about this stuff.
00:11:40.570 --> 00:11:44.509
But so first of all, back to Colonel Pahatsky,
00:11:44.610 --> 00:11:46.870
right? Yes. But yeah, my horse is my teachers.
00:11:46.950 --> 00:11:48.769
It should be on everybody's friggin bookshelf.
00:11:49.029 --> 00:11:51.809
It should be. I don't have it. And your book
00:11:51.809 --> 00:11:54.590
is going to be also soon to be. Oh, thank you.
00:11:54.870 --> 00:12:00.440
Yes. Come on. But yeah, I mean, You look at the
00:12:00.440 --> 00:12:04.799
videos with him and his horses, and yes, he's
00:12:04.799 --> 00:12:08.360
got a very heavy tack on them, but they're not
00:12:08.360 --> 00:12:11.419
stressed. I think this is where people are getting
00:12:11.419 --> 00:12:15.460
lost. Oh, we've got to ride bridle lists or whatever.
00:12:16.419 --> 00:12:20.539
It's how the equipment's used. Oh, very much
00:12:20.539 --> 00:12:24.860
so. As a professional trainer, what's your take
00:12:24.860 --> 00:12:27.259
on all these different types of equipment now?
00:12:28.909 --> 00:12:33.570
Well, it's kind of shocking actually, too. I
00:12:33.570 --> 00:12:37.789
mean, we used to put snaffle bits on everything.
00:12:38.330 --> 00:12:43.549
I started my horses in rubber, just a plain rubber
00:12:43.549 --> 00:12:47.789
snaffle. It was never a problem, it was never
00:12:47.789 --> 00:12:52.909
an issue. Like, the big, even those big Canna
00:12:52.909 --> 00:12:55.970
variants back then, it was just a snaffle bit.
00:12:56.220 --> 00:12:59.679
I still, you know, schooled my horse, my stallion,
00:12:59.720 --> 00:13:04.919
in the ring when Albert Clyde, who was Sprains
00:13:04.919 --> 00:13:11.179
Man's master trainer, was schooling his young
00:13:11.179 --> 00:13:16.860
horses in all snap full bits. It was just, you
00:13:16.860 --> 00:13:20.940
know, not a thought given otherwise. But now,
00:13:21.220 --> 00:13:25.019
you know what I see? Like, there was very particular
00:13:25.210 --> 00:13:30.210
way of schooling those big warm -ups and a lot
00:13:30.210 --> 00:13:35.769
of work in the walk and a lot on supplements,
00:13:36.389 --> 00:13:40.190
like just suppling the horses every step. And
00:13:40.190 --> 00:13:45.750
the rider has to be very active with that suppling
00:13:45.750 --> 00:13:51.509
exercise. You're not just sitting there. So the
00:13:51.509 --> 00:13:56.340
athleticism of the rider is directly proportional
00:13:56.340 --> 00:14:00.259
to the athleticism of the horse. And I think
00:14:00.259 --> 00:14:04.820
a lot of people think that the horse is going
00:14:04.820 --> 00:14:08.580
to carry them over, you know, four and a half
00:14:08.580 --> 00:14:11.519
foot fences just because it's bred to do that.
00:14:11.720 --> 00:14:15.600
It's sort of trained. I mean, I see people pulling
00:14:15.600 --> 00:14:19.580
and pushing and kicking, you know, yanking horses
00:14:19.580 --> 00:14:24.000
through turns where It should just be invisible.
00:14:24.320 --> 00:14:26.860
It should be possible with his snaffles. So I
00:14:26.860 --> 00:14:30.019
think people have gotten quite impatient and
00:14:30.019 --> 00:14:35.580
they're trusting that his horse has generations
00:14:35.580 --> 00:14:38.980
of super jumpers in his bloodline. So sure, he'll
00:14:38.980 --> 00:14:43.360
clear the fence, but he's got a hollow back.
00:14:43.720 --> 00:14:48.720
I see tons of hollow backs disproportionately.
00:14:50.940 --> 00:14:57.899
developed musculature and strange riding, especially
00:14:57.899 --> 00:15:02.299
in Trissage, like those big saddles with the
00:15:02.299 --> 00:15:10.179
huge knee rolls and things like that. I don't
00:15:10.179 --> 00:15:16.159
want to say it's created lazy riders, but a whole
00:15:16.159 --> 00:15:21.450
different classification of riding that is really
00:15:21.450 --> 00:15:27.110
kind of coming under fire for it's, um, pretty
00:15:27.110 --> 00:15:30.450
much object cruelty to the horse. It's, it's,
00:15:30.450 --> 00:15:33.710
it's just not fair to the horse. It's something
00:15:33.710 --> 00:15:35.950
happened here. Something. So how many, so there's
00:15:35.950 --> 00:15:37.809
something, this is where you got to see, cause
00:15:37.809 --> 00:15:40.850
you were, so you brought something up very already
00:15:40.850 --> 00:15:44.509
a couple of times now about these, um, emphasis
00:15:44.509 --> 00:15:46.970
on the breeds too, by the way. And, you know,
00:15:46.970 --> 00:15:49.409
like, this whole kind of idea just, you know,
00:15:49.529 --> 00:15:52.669
and this is, you know, ties into your book, Compassionate
00:15:52.669 --> 00:15:57.029
Equestrian. It's like, you know, not every, some,
00:15:57.029 --> 00:15:59.889
some, some breeds are, you know, how do you like,
00:15:59.889 --> 00:16:01.769
you know, really start to think about what's
00:16:01.769 --> 00:16:04.870
the best breed or horse for you and your type
00:16:04.870 --> 00:16:07.690
of writing in whatever discipline you're in?
00:16:08.389 --> 00:16:10.330
Yes. Marianne talks about that a lot. So I mean,
00:16:10.389 --> 00:16:12.210
that would be one. And the other one is that,
00:16:13.169 --> 00:16:15.269
you know, again, what happened? What was it?
00:16:15.340 --> 00:16:18.240
was it the money thing what happened with that
00:16:18.240 --> 00:16:20.820
you know from this over complication of everything
00:16:20.820 --> 00:16:24.340
very stressed horses to something that yes it
00:16:24.340 --> 00:16:27.080
was actually and i i'm very careful about oh
00:16:27.080 --> 00:16:29.779
it's better we have to go back to you know a
00:16:29.779 --> 00:16:32.740
time that doesn't exist time doesn't exist period
00:16:32.740 --> 00:16:35.620
but you know we only have now but blah blah that's
00:16:35.620 --> 00:16:37.899
me and my so far but you know there's it sure
00:16:37.899 --> 00:16:40.559
there was some problems back then when you when
00:16:40.559 --> 00:16:43.659
you're starting out your career i'm sure but
00:16:43.659 --> 00:16:49.360
it was not as complicated and it was much more
00:16:49.360 --> 00:16:52.659
simple and a lot more freedom to move. Right
00:16:52.659 --> 00:16:55.960
now it's a lot more, anyways, two questions of
00:16:55.960 --> 00:17:00.519
the breed for the person and or the horse for
00:17:00.519 --> 00:17:04.099
the person as you found the Appaloosa and then
00:17:04.099 --> 00:17:06.599
what happened? Why did it get so complicated?
00:17:07.069 --> 00:17:11.190
Yeah, that's such a good question because it
00:17:11.190 --> 00:17:16.349
sure did. Well, okay, so when the war bloods
00:17:16.349 --> 00:17:20.890
first started showing up, like, okay, so we had
00:17:20.890 --> 00:17:24.029
some trainers with Irish drafts. So the Irish
00:17:24.029 --> 00:17:29.049
draft horses were classic field hunters imported
00:17:29.049 --> 00:17:35.740
from Ireland. fabulous, fabulous horses. The
00:17:35.740 --> 00:17:41.460
Hanoverians were quite expensive at the time.
00:17:41.640 --> 00:17:44.660
There were a couple of sides for these meadows.
00:17:45.819 --> 00:17:48.859
Frank Selinger at St. George's stables also brought
00:17:48.859 --> 00:17:53.579
in a couple of foundation mares. So these were
00:17:53.579 --> 00:17:59.019
your old type Hanoverians. Obviously out of most
00:17:59.019 --> 00:18:03.950
people's price range. even back then, it was
00:18:03.950 --> 00:18:10.470
expensive to acquire these horses. And they were
00:18:10.470 --> 00:18:14.589
pretty much bred for, let's just say, I don't
00:18:14.589 --> 00:18:18.609
want to sound sexist or racist, but what's the
00:18:18.609 --> 00:18:23.589
case? I'm just going back in history. big German
00:18:23.589 --> 00:18:29.190
men to ride. They used to pull the beer wagons
00:18:29.190 --> 00:18:32.309
in Germany. That's what he said, because the
00:18:32.309 --> 00:18:37.430
warm blood breeds are related to the region that
00:18:37.430 --> 00:18:41.430
they come from. So we have these big draft type
00:18:41.430 --> 00:18:44.730
horses that were found to have some talent in
00:18:44.730 --> 00:18:50.390
the jumping ring, and they certainly did. But
00:18:50.390 --> 00:18:55.170
they were too heavy for the average North American
00:18:55.170 --> 00:18:59.950
rider. So this comes straight from one of the
00:18:59.950 --> 00:19:04.750
breed inspectors that came to one of my barns
00:19:04.750 --> 00:19:09.849
and I said this is okay so I'm fast forwarding
00:19:09.849 --> 00:19:16.009
now to the 90s when those old hand variants now
00:19:16.009 --> 00:19:20.480
looked quite different and he said well we started
00:19:20.480 --> 00:19:24.000
to breed the horses for the average North American
00:19:24.000 --> 00:19:28.579
buyer, which is a middle -aged woman who has
00:19:28.579 --> 00:19:32.700
pretty tea pockets. So they were actually in
00:19:32.700 --> 00:19:36.079
the process of, they saw what the market was.
00:19:36.400 --> 00:19:43.619
They kept the best stallions in Europe and let
00:19:43.619 --> 00:19:48.400
some of the later stallions come to them. America
00:19:48.400 --> 00:19:53.000
breed with thoroughbreds and Arabians. I had
00:19:53.000 --> 00:19:56.619
a neighbor that was breeding, let's see, she
00:19:56.619 --> 00:20:01.380
had really gorgeous, he wasn't a Hanoverian,
00:20:01.759 --> 00:20:06.480
I think he was a Oldenburg stallion breeding
00:20:06.480 --> 00:20:12.460
to Arabians. So you're starting to get some interesting
00:20:12.460 --> 00:20:15.240
crosses. Sometimes they worked, sometimes the
00:20:15.240 --> 00:20:19.519
conformation was off. You'd have to, you know,
00:20:19.640 --> 00:20:23.220
look like two different horses, one into the
00:20:23.220 --> 00:20:28.900
other. So these horses started to get bred lighter
00:20:28.900 --> 00:20:33.640
for the people that had the, you know, wherewithal
00:20:33.640 --> 00:20:40.360
to purchase these horses. And of course, lower
00:20:40.360 --> 00:20:43.039
levels, I don't mean, here's what kind of happened
00:20:43.039 --> 00:20:46.259
to Dressage, and this comes from one of, again,
00:20:46.859 --> 00:20:52.420
a top show barn that I was at, and they want
00:20:52.420 --> 00:20:56.180
to get to the upper levels as quickly as possible.
00:20:57.380 --> 00:21:03.000
So the horses were, it was hit or miss, I would
00:21:03.000 --> 00:21:05.920
say, in those days. They're still charging, you
00:21:05.920 --> 00:21:08.019
know, quite a bit of money to purchase these
00:21:08.019 --> 00:21:15.230
horses. They were holding up okay. But, and these
00:21:15.230 --> 00:21:19.470
are the days when like Contour -Sidell would
00:21:19.470 --> 00:21:24.849
come to the barn for a clinic and Stephen Peters,
00:21:25.210 --> 00:21:30.069
who is a great, great rider. And they were still
00:21:30.069 --> 00:21:32.789
in some of the older horses, Debbie McDonald
00:21:32.789 --> 00:21:37.490
was her great mare. And so he'd seen them at
00:21:37.490 --> 00:21:40.569
first level. And it's like, wow, there's a talented
00:21:40.569 --> 00:21:44.809
horse. The next year, maybe second level. Then
00:21:44.809 --> 00:21:48.569
three or four years later, it's like, oh, look,
00:21:48.730 --> 00:21:52.309
they're schooling Grand Prix. This horse might
00:21:52.309 --> 00:21:56.109
make it to the Olympics. All of a sudden, we
00:21:56.109 --> 00:21:59.869
don't seem to be seeing these horses through
00:21:59.869 --> 00:22:03.299
there. you know perhaps since I'm just out of
00:22:03.299 --> 00:22:06.279
the loop but it looks to me like they're pushing
00:22:06.279 --> 00:22:10.720
horses faster and faster into the upper levels.
00:22:10.740 --> 00:22:14.980
You look at the age of these horses and if an
00:22:14.980 --> 00:22:18.180
eight -year -old is all of a sudden at Grand
00:22:18.180 --> 00:22:21.480
Prix that's too soon. They've pushed the training
00:22:21.480 --> 00:22:25.900
and they've only pushed it because they can sort
00:22:25.900 --> 00:22:31.150
of get away with it because the breeding has
00:22:31.150 --> 00:22:34.089
now produced these horses. If you look at the
00:22:34.089 --> 00:22:38.089
picture of a dressage horse, you'll see the nose
00:22:38.089 --> 00:22:41.250
here, perhaps, but then you'll see the front
00:22:41.250 --> 00:22:45.190
hoof, like, way out here somewhere, and you don't
00:22:45.190 --> 00:22:49.470
see the crevness in the hindquarters to the front,
00:22:49.589 --> 00:22:54.109
and I can't watch it, honestly, and a lot of
00:22:54.109 --> 00:22:59.549
us old -timers have trouble watching this modern
00:22:59.549 --> 00:23:04.230
dressage. And I mean, I've watched it all happen.
00:23:04.470 --> 00:23:07.890
It's kind of horrifying, you know, 20 years,
00:23:08.730 --> 00:23:15.349
and things have really deteriorated. So that
00:23:15.349 --> 00:23:19.650
shouldn't be happening, but it is. And these
00:23:19.650 --> 00:23:22.329
horses don't stay sound. I've watched people
00:23:22.329 --> 00:23:27.750
spend got tens of thousands of dollars on let's
00:23:27.750 --> 00:23:31.029
say a fourth level horse one of my clients had
00:23:31.029 --> 00:23:39.130
and the horse was pretty much unrideable to the
00:23:39.130 --> 00:23:43.150
point where she donated a t .c. davis it had
00:23:43.150 --> 00:23:48.190
a head shaking disorder but that's just one of
00:23:48.190 --> 00:23:56.160
many cases is like Yeah. Disappointing. That's
00:23:56.160 --> 00:24:03.160
what led to the book, actually. Dovetailing into
00:24:03.160 --> 00:24:05.839
that. So yeah, this is the 10th anniversary of
00:24:05.839 --> 00:24:09.099
the Compassionate Equestrian, which you co -authored,
00:24:09.420 --> 00:24:12.799
and it was unbelievable. 10 years, right? What
00:24:12.799 --> 00:24:18.279
happened in 10 years? There's definitely a...
00:24:18.250 --> 00:24:20.710
growing interest as we know there's a lot of
00:24:20.710 --> 00:24:23.450
people that are turning to this so this is the
00:24:23.450 --> 00:24:27.509
hopeful part because um you know this uh we you
00:24:27.509 --> 00:24:31.509
know we have made it very impossible for a lot
00:24:31.509 --> 00:24:33.769
of people to even enter this um so you're making
00:24:33.769 --> 00:24:37.690
this is a very nice uh i i still haven't yet
00:24:37.690 --> 00:24:39.869
to read it but so that was one of my questions
00:24:39.869 --> 00:24:42.950
with the book you know there's you talked i did
00:24:42.950 --> 00:24:44.930
read the article in the concordian magazine but
00:24:44.930 --> 00:24:48.009
um you know that Mm -hmm. Common sense, you know,
00:24:48.049 --> 00:24:51.630
how that - Absolutely. This is a very basic one
00:24:51.630 --> 00:24:53.890
that's sometimes, somehow is missing somewhere
00:24:53.890 --> 00:24:56.069
along the way. Again, this is like, and I think
00:24:56.069 --> 00:24:59.049
it goes back to Mary Ann, but coming back to
00:24:59.049 --> 00:25:01.289
the horse's, horse -centric point of view, like
00:25:01.289 --> 00:25:03.450
what's going, what's best for them, but hey,
00:25:03.609 --> 00:25:05.589
maybe not throw them up to Grand Prix at age
00:25:05.589 --> 00:25:08.470
eight. Maybe take, you know, years. That's like
00:25:08.470 --> 00:25:10.869
common sense to me, but maybe not to some, I
00:25:10.869 --> 00:25:13.150
don't know. But the one that you did talk about
00:25:13.150 --> 00:25:16.500
is safety. And I do appreciate you talking about
00:25:16.500 --> 00:25:19.519
the British Pony Club. Oh, I'm going to put a
00:25:19.519 --> 00:25:23.380
plug for my friend. Oh, it's classic. Helen O
00:25:23.380 --> 00:25:26.880
'Reilly was one of my early instructors and she
00:25:26.880 --> 00:25:32.319
was from England and she was teaching British
00:25:32.319 --> 00:25:35.319
Pony Club here in the U .S. You can't find them
00:25:35.319 --> 00:25:38.500
anywhere now, unfortunately. No. It's so sad.
00:25:38.599 --> 00:25:40.799
But the thing that I was talking about when I
00:25:40.799 --> 00:25:43.339
was thinking about that common sense is safety.
00:25:43.609 --> 00:25:46.670
And that actually led me to think about safety
00:25:46.670 --> 00:25:49.390
from the human perspective might be a little
00:25:49.390 --> 00:25:52.470
different from the horse's perspective. And I
00:25:52.470 --> 00:25:56.170
wanted to ask you that. We have our own safety
00:25:56.170 --> 00:25:59.690
assurance, but they're different. And can they
00:25:59.690 --> 00:26:04.049
be looked at together? Well, of course, we know
00:26:04.049 --> 00:26:07.069
that horses feel safest when they have their
00:26:07.069 --> 00:26:11.130
herd mates close by. And so when they're separated
00:26:11.130 --> 00:26:17.230
from the herd, Any anxiety or traumas are going
00:26:17.230 --> 00:26:22.309
to magnify and it can happen quickly. I mean,
00:26:22.490 --> 00:26:25.470
some of the most frustrating things taking horses
00:26:25.470 --> 00:26:30.269
to a show is that all of a sudden they're separated
00:26:30.269 --> 00:26:35.269
from their friends. Myopolis the colt loved going
00:26:35.269 --> 00:26:38.380
to shows. He was such a ham. But he would, you
00:26:38.380 --> 00:26:40.839
know, he'd get quite upset if he was getting
00:26:40.839 --> 00:26:44.779
left behind. And he was one of these horses that
00:26:44.779 --> 00:26:47.480
you had to literally hold him back on the way
00:26:47.480 --> 00:26:50.619
to the trailer because he would jump in and scare
00:26:50.619 --> 00:26:53.779
the other horses. He was like a dog that wanted
00:26:53.779 --> 00:27:00.420
to go for a car ride. So he he his comfort zone
00:27:00.420 --> 00:27:06.079
was being people. I think he thought he was.
00:27:06.359 --> 00:27:12.460
dog he was he was so much he was such a bad but
00:27:12.460 --> 00:27:19.220
he loved people and so he could um he was even
00:27:19.220 --> 00:27:22.319
though he was a stallion he was just one of the
00:27:22.319 --> 00:27:25.960
safest horses to be around he was started properly
00:27:25.960 --> 00:27:30.380
uh he was probably waiting a bit too early because
00:27:30.380 --> 00:27:35.619
he was shown uh in hand as a six month old colt
00:27:35.619 --> 00:27:40.960
so but his manners were perfect um absolutely
00:27:40.960 --> 00:27:45.039
you could tie him like i said he was he was almost
00:27:45.039 --> 00:27:50.119
too easy to load in the trailer just wait a second
00:27:50.119 --> 00:27:54.940
um but i love horses like that because they're
00:27:54.940 --> 00:28:02.640
so trustworthy so if that trust um has had any,
00:28:02.640 --> 00:28:06.859
let's say, any blips in the training, any trauma
00:28:06.859 --> 00:28:11.519
that's happened. And sometimes, you know, just
00:28:11.519 --> 00:28:16.420
things happen with cults. And if an amateur is
00:28:16.420 --> 00:28:22.519
handling a cult and an accident happens, some
00:28:22.519 --> 00:28:28.559
bits of that trauma will stick. So it's, he really
00:28:28.559 --> 00:28:35.180
wants your horses to have a good, safe start
00:28:35.180 --> 00:28:38.400
with a professional that obviously isn't going
00:28:38.400 --> 00:28:42.400
to hang them from a patient's pole, so to speak.
00:28:43.059 --> 00:28:46.279
But the classical training just makes these horses
00:28:46.279 --> 00:28:51.720
so safe, so easy to work with. Any horse I've
00:28:51.720 --> 00:28:56.000
started with the classical training that put
00:28:56.000 --> 00:29:00.869
a skate into others. talk about. I know people
00:29:00.869 --> 00:29:03.910
don't like to use bits. Well, use a rubber bit.
00:29:04.349 --> 00:29:09.329
I've seen a lot of problems caused by people
00:29:09.329 --> 00:29:14.470
insisting on starting horses bitless, which is
00:29:14.470 --> 00:29:19.529
fine if you still know how to develop the musculature
00:29:19.529 --> 00:29:23.710
correctly. But sometimes the pressure points
00:29:23.710 --> 00:29:27.589
in those knots that put pressure on the horse's
00:29:27.589 --> 00:29:32.740
head I've seen horses pretty much flip over by
00:29:32.740 --> 00:29:37.779
putting too much pressure on the wrong part of
00:29:37.779 --> 00:29:43.039
the horse's head and that just sets the horse
00:29:43.039 --> 00:29:47.819
up for pretty much a lifetime of being re -triggered
00:29:47.819 --> 00:29:52.769
into any of those early mistakes or accidents.
00:29:53.109 --> 00:29:56.970
You can kind of patch them over that if a horse
00:29:56.970 --> 00:30:02.650
has had a safety related accident and of course
00:30:02.650 --> 00:30:05.309
there's safety if we want to talk safety with
00:30:05.309 --> 00:30:09.150
the herd, safety separated from the herd and
00:30:09.150 --> 00:30:13.210
safety in the presence of people and all the
00:30:13.210 --> 00:30:17.359
people things that we do with them. You really
00:30:17.359 --> 00:30:21.660
want to try to keep incidents and traumas out
00:30:21.660 --> 00:30:25.579
of that whole picture. Sometimes it's difficult,
00:30:25.579 --> 00:30:30.000
you know, if they get hung up on something at
00:30:30.000 --> 00:30:33.420
an early stage of training, let's say as an example,
00:30:35.160 --> 00:30:39.309
it might not show up for five years again. but
00:30:39.309 --> 00:30:43.150
it's those trauma triggers just like those people
00:30:43.150 --> 00:30:47.170
stay married and all of a sudden perhaps uh you
00:30:47.170 --> 00:30:50.710
know the horse's soul the new owner does something
00:30:50.710 --> 00:30:53.190
that they think is perfectly innocent when the
00:30:53.190 --> 00:30:58.230
horse flips over um and they don't know why so
00:30:58.230 --> 00:31:03.190
yeah safety it's you really have to know your
00:31:03.480 --> 00:31:08.259
horse psychology and the horse's, you know, propensity
00:31:08.259 --> 00:31:12.140
to, you know, feel that where he's comfortable.
00:31:12.559 --> 00:31:14.940
But then you want to kind of convert that like,
00:31:15.319 --> 00:31:19.579
hey, you're safe around us silly humans too.
00:31:20.819 --> 00:31:24.460
And that's a good horse when you can get that
00:31:24.460 --> 00:31:27.680
horse to feel just as safe with our human stuff
00:31:27.680 --> 00:31:33.589
as he does with his herd. and it solves a whole
00:31:33.589 --> 00:31:37.430
lot of problems down the road. All right, thank
00:31:37.430 --> 00:31:40.589
you. I totally followed everything that I think
00:31:40.589 --> 00:31:44.150
that's, you nailed it there. So it's just, so
00:31:44.150 --> 00:31:47.150
you're no longer, you've retired from training.
00:31:48.569 --> 00:31:50.690
Pretty much. So you do have some clients, I think.
00:31:50.829 --> 00:31:54.309
Is that what you said? Yeah, I heard. But so
00:31:54.309 --> 00:31:56.769
you're not training anymore, so. A couple things
00:31:56.769 --> 00:31:59.329
here, one is that, especially with this Appaloosa,
00:31:59.390 --> 00:32:01.029
who I just got a picture of, and now you have
00:32:01.029 --> 00:32:03.589
to send me a photo of him. I will send you a
00:32:03.589 --> 00:32:06.750
picture of him. I might have to post that too,
00:32:06.750 --> 00:32:11.190
if you don't mind. Yes, absolutely. He was a
00:32:11.190 --> 00:32:13.930
real gift, and that's what I found in these horses,
00:32:14.130 --> 00:32:16.230
kind of, they show up for us, right? When we,
00:32:16.250 --> 00:32:18.789
you know, they're there. They do. Right? So this
00:32:18.789 --> 00:32:21.230
is like, this is the part that, one of the reasons
00:32:21.230 --> 00:32:22.849
I started this podcast, you know, it's like,
00:32:23.569 --> 00:32:25.170
there's, you mentioned there's a two -way exchange,
00:32:25.190 --> 00:32:29.160
but this horse has a lot of gifts, but he also
00:32:29.160 --> 00:32:32.160
got a little bit upset when he was pulled away.
00:32:33.559 --> 00:32:35.559
One of the things I always see is people try
00:32:35.559 --> 00:32:40.400
to train their horse without any, and I was curious
00:32:40.400 --> 00:32:42.319
what your thoughts are about when you are doing
00:32:42.319 --> 00:32:48.039
active training, like having another horse when
00:32:48.039 --> 00:32:50.039
you were doing your exercises. Did you do that
00:32:50.039 --> 00:32:53.200
kind of just to help them if they were getting
00:32:53.200 --> 00:32:56.700
a little bit more anxious? Did you have ways
00:32:56.700 --> 00:32:59.500
to, you know, work with them? And the other one
00:32:59.500 --> 00:33:05.180
is that, you know, the real question is, because
00:33:05.180 --> 00:33:08.079
this is important, and again, anybody off the
00:33:08.079 --> 00:33:09.579
street, you know, we've got the online gurus,
00:33:09.720 --> 00:33:11.299
everybody off the streets calling themselves
00:33:11.299 --> 00:33:14.259
trainer, and very cautious, again, very cautious,
00:33:14.380 --> 00:33:17.980
but again, we do have a real responsibility,
00:33:18.960 --> 00:33:21.839
because we can also reverse whatever good training.
00:33:22.279 --> 00:33:23.960
What is a good trainer? That's the question.
00:33:24.119 --> 00:33:27.900
What's a good trainer? Exactly. Well, that's
00:33:27.900 --> 00:33:32.079
an excellent question. Back in the old days,
00:33:33.099 --> 00:33:37.740
it was reputations usually through apprenticeships.
00:33:38.339 --> 00:33:43.220
And I still actually put a lot of value on apprenticeships.
00:33:43.420 --> 00:33:48.140
And I'm seeing, you know, these days in my region,
00:33:48.400 --> 00:33:52.559
we have Jonathan Fields and Josh Nichol and Tic
00:33:52.559 --> 00:33:58.740
Maynard. um all from British Columbia and um
00:33:58.740 --> 00:34:02.680
these guys they're all good trainers they're
00:34:02.680 --> 00:34:07.799
good well tick and um tick rope jumpers still
00:34:07.799 --> 00:34:11.119
tick silver jumpers he's just one another uh
00:34:11.119 --> 00:34:15.360
I saw I know I'm so excited for him the last
00:34:15.360 --> 00:34:20.079
time I he's amazing and his if you knew his family
00:34:20.079 --> 00:34:24.360
you would go Yeah, yeah, that's exactly the part
00:34:24.360 --> 00:34:28.019
that he was set on. The last time I saw him in
00:34:28.019 --> 00:34:32.199
person, he wrote in the Grand Prix in Vancouver,
00:34:33.320 --> 00:34:36.920
and his dad was there. His dad, it's Rick, it's
00:34:36.920 --> 00:34:39.519
like a legend. They used to, he and his wife
00:34:39.519 --> 00:34:43.340
Jen used to do horse show photography. So they
00:34:43.340 --> 00:34:45.679
had a lineage there, just like a breed would,
00:34:45.800 --> 00:34:48.539
so there's, you know. Absolutely. What makes
00:34:48.539 --> 00:34:53.639
him such a good trainer? What do you think? He's
00:34:53.639 --> 00:34:56.860
got, like, so many of these guys. There's an
00:34:56.860 --> 00:35:02.960
inherent talent. And, well, of course, Tick just
00:35:02.960 --> 00:35:05.900
basically grew up on horseback. I'm not sure
00:35:05.900 --> 00:35:09.659
about the other guys, but what their parents'
00:35:10.139 --> 00:35:16.320
influence were. But they're good riders. So you
00:35:16.320 --> 00:35:20.230
watch them and... the horses, their horses are
00:35:20.230 --> 00:35:26.369
happy, their horses do you know what that rider
00:35:26.369 --> 00:35:30.659
is asking them to do. without it looking like
00:35:30.659 --> 00:35:35.179
that old or difficult or, I mean, Tink literally
00:35:35.179 --> 00:35:38.260
won a grand prize the last time I saw him and
00:35:38.260 --> 00:35:40.820
his dad was so excited and Tink was excited.
00:35:41.000 --> 00:35:43.739
It was just this beautiful Smith ride and I thought,
00:35:43.940 --> 00:35:49.679
you know, he's got some future there. At least
00:35:49.679 --> 00:35:56.059
15 years ago. And Josh has kind of come up through
00:35:56.059 --> 00:36:00.019
the ranks and he's just starting to make a name
00:36:00.019 --> 00:36:02.940
for himself. And I can see he's from Alberta.
00:36:03.579 --> 00:36:06.500
And you see these guys, I know he's grown up
00:36:06.500 --> 00:36:10.599
working cattle. He's come through the whole cowboy
00:36:10.599 --> 00:36:15.750
thing and he's got this deep... philosophy that's
00:36:15.750 --> 00:36:18.309
probably part his and part of what he's picked
00:36:18.309 --> 00:36:21.090
up that works with, because most of the clients
00:36:21.090 --> 00:36:25.289
are ladies, right? Middle -aged ladies with horses.
00:36:26.750 --> 00:36:32.070
Yeah, exactly. It's the same in your region as
00:36:32.070 --> 00:36:35.889
well then. It is like these cowboy guys and I'm
00:36:35.889 --> 00:36:38.050
watching them and I'm going because you know
00:36:38.050 --> 00:36:40.849
I don't have my own horse to demonstrate with
00:36:40.849 --> 00:36:43.130
you know so I've kind of left myself because
00:36:43.130 --> 00:36:45.670
I wrote the book as a retirement project and
00:36:45.670 --> 00:36:48.690
I don't have my own horse so I can't go do all
00:36:48.690 --> 00:36:51.389
these demos and stuff like these guys do and
00:36:51.389 --> 00:36:55.429
show off the liberty work and all the cool stuff
00:36:55.429 --> 00:36:57.929
that I used to do with these horses otherwise
00:36:57.929 --> 00:37:01.730
you know it'd be like yeah okay I'll be you know
00:37:01.730 --> 00:37:05.800
famous online with my horses too. It just didn't
00:37:05.800 --> 00:37:14.639
exist in my time. So I think they've used the
00:37:14.639 --> 00:37:17.400
social media marketing to create a following,
00:37:17.900 --> 00:37:20.719
but there's an authenticity to the fact I look
00:37:20.719 --> 00:37:23.260
at them and go, yep, that's good. All right.
00:37:23.930 --> 00:37:26.809
anybody in their field, their peers, without
00:37:26.809 --> 00:37:29.289
the cameras, without the social media is going
00:37:29.289 --> 00:37:32.570
to say, yep, that guy can ride, you know, he
00:37:32.570 --> 00:37:37.210
can work cow, he can start a colt, he can win
00:37:37.210 --> 00:37:40.489
a jumper class. And so if you take those guys
00:37:40.489 --> 00:37:45.769
and then they can actually teach on top of it,
00:37:46.250 --> 00:37:49.409
that's great, you know, that's it. There's a
00:37:49.409 --> 00:37:54.019
lot of excellent trainers who don't have the
00:37:54.019 --> 00:37:57.659
social media skills and the online following
00:37:57.659 --> 00:38:03.559
and all of that. So for people seeking a trainer,
00:38:04.579 --> 00:38:09.260
I mean, I think it's good to connect with some
00:38:09.260 --> 00:38:12.820
clinics in these skies, but you can't. And I
00:38:12.820 --> 00:38:16.800
watched what happens here is despite the fact
00:38:16.800 --> 00:38:21.489
that these guys are good horsemen and these ladies
00:38:21.489 --> 00:38:26.210
go to year after year when they go back to their
00:38:26.210 --> 00:38:29.469
clinics their weekend clinics and stuff but then
00:38:29.469 --> 00:38:33.989
they go to their backyards and they try to recreate
00:38:33.989 --> 00:38:40.570
what they've learned and I'm seeing a lot of
00:38:40.570 --> 00:38:44.929
huge mistakes and issues with horses that shouldn't
00:38:44.929 --> 00:38:48.530
be happening and probably wouldn't be happening
00:38:48.530 --> 00:38:53.670
if they were under steady supervision. Yeah,
00:38:53.670 --> 00:38:57.969
you did write about, you shared this, this is
00:38:57.969 --> 00:39:00.750
a real danger, trying to learn everything online
00:39:00.750 --> 00:39:05.769
and not having that real direct experience. I
00:39:05.769 --> 00:39:08.269
appreciate that and I think that is kind of what's
00:39:08.269 --> 00:39:11.590
a big problem right now and that leads to lack
00:39:11.590 --> 00:39:16.239
of common sense and then unsafe scenarios. But
00:39:16.239 --> 00:39:21.420
so, I mean, back to you as a trainer, did you
00:39:21.420 --> 00:39:24.239
like, I really, there's this Italian guy I really
00:39:24.239 --> 00:39:27.579
like who does some things that are, I find that
00:39:27.579 --> 00:39:31.820
like, you know, he takes the saddle off, takes
00:39:31.820 --> 00:39:34.800
the tack off the horse when they, and this lets
00:39:34.800 --> 00:39:38.920
them have free time when they finish in the arena.
00:39:39.599 --> 00:39:44.340
So they can just be. Oh, I do that all the time.
00:39:44.699 --> 00:39:47.699
I see that a lot, that people just put one horse
00:39:47.699 --> 00:39:49.559
in an indoor arena and just, you know, do their
00:39:49.559 --> 00:39:51.679
dressage tests and everything and then training,
00:39:51.820 --> 00:39:54.119
blah, blah, blah. But it doesn't look enjoyable
00:39:54.119 --> 00:39:57.179
with a horse. That's what I'm asking. I wanted
00:39:57.179 --> 00:39:59.099
to know what your thoughts are about training.
00:39:59.099 --> 00:40:05.480
Oh, yeah. Well, what I used to teach my clients
00:40:05.480 --> 00:40:10.960
is that, okay, get off your horse. at the end
00:40:10.960 --> 00:40:15.579
of a ride and just let him look around, let him
00:40:15.579 --> 00:40:19.420
decompress, walk around, strip the tack, let
00:40:19.420 --> 00:40:23.369
him have a roll if he wants to. Like, I would
00:40:23.369 --> 00:40:27.110
never, if I could stop them from just, you know,
00:40:27.269 --> 00:40:30.010
going straight back to the barn. Also, a lot
00:40:30.010 --> 00:40:32.610
of them would stay on the horse. Like, let's
00:40:32.610 --> 00:40:35.670
say they'd have a 45 -minute jumping lesson.
00:40:36.230 --> 00:40:39.530
Then they'd, you know, be hacking around, chatting
00:40:39.530 --> 00:40:42.530
with their friends for another half hour or so.
00:40:42.909 --> 00:40:45.630
You see, this really, really poor, tired horse.
00:40:46.309 --> 00:40:48.690
They're, you know, oblivious to the fact that
00:40:48.690 --> 00:40:53.530
the horse is probably exhausted. It's like, and
00:40:53.530 --> 00:40:57.210
at a show, people sit on the horses for hours
00:40:57.210 --> 00:41:00.809
watching a class, watching other classes. Just
00:41:00.809 --> 00:41:05.110
be aware that, just get off, let the horse decompress,
00:41:05.349 --> 00:41:13.230
take the tack off and, you know, hand walk. When
00:41:13.230 --> 00:41:19.429
I had that police occult, I was 16 and I wasn't
00:41:19.429 --> 00:41:23.019
even out to show him in junior classes because
00:41:23.019 --> 00:41:26.599
juniors couldn't show stallions. So I had to
00:41:26.599 --> 00:41:29.320
take him as a two -year -old and three -year
00:41:29.320 --> 00:41:32.960
-old straight into open classes, which was fine.
00:41:33.800 --> 00:41:39.079
But when the Mexican team in particular came
00:41:39.079 --> 00:41:42.400
to Spruce Meadows, I noticed that they would
00:41:42.400 --> 00:41:46.139
take the horses out of the stalls and hand walk
00:41:46.139 --> 00:41:51.230
each one for at least an hour. every day. And
00:41:51.230 --> 00:41:53.929
this was really, it was my first introduction
00:41:53.929 --> 00:41:59.590
to teams from all over the world. We had teams
00:41:59.590 --> 00:42:04.750
from Japan, Ireland, England, France, Germany,
00:42:06.670 --> 00:42:11.289
and Mexico, of course. And they really, they
00:42:11.289 --> 00:42:17.000
stood out for the exceptional care. It was given
00:42:17.000 --> 00:42:22.280
to the horses, you know, just letting them look
00:42:22.280 --> 00:42:27.239
around and decompress and walk. And they did
00:42:27.239 --> 00:42:33.679
quite well. So I was, I've kind of, you know,
00:42:33.860 --> 00:42:37.820
stuck with that ever since. This is really the
00:42:37.820 --> 00:42:40.760
theme of the book. What I gather is this kindness
00:42:40.760 --> 00:42:44.789
and kindness and compassion. I don't know. You
00:42:44.789 --> 00:42:47.309
just lost that or so what happened along the
00:42:47.309 --> 00:42:49.929
get off the horse's back after you work them.
00:42:49.929 --> 00:42:53.070
Yeah, simple stuff. I call that common sense.
00:42:53.170 --> 00:42:55.690
But it is like also it's just like shifting.
00:42:55.869 --> 00:42:57.590
Like what does the horse what's the best for
00:42:57.590 --> 00:43:01.210
the horse at this moment in time? Yes. And that's
00:43:01.210 --> 00:43:03.090
I think that's the tough one because of the money
00:43:03.090 --> 00:43:05.130
and the time thing. Oh, we got to get to this.
00:43:05.550 --> 00:43:08.389
We got to get to the Grand Prix level by July.
00:43:08.389 --> 00:43:10.690
You know, get over yourselves. But you know,
00:43:11.250 --> 00:43:15.000
you've gotten so You got so much that you, um,
00:43:15.719 --> 00:43:18.300
again, you've gotten to witness in this and your
00:43:18.300 --> 00:43:21.079
career and, and, um, you know, that you brought
00:43:21.079 --> 00:43:23.019
that. That's for sure. I'm going to bring it
00:43:23.019 --> 00:43:24.940
back to what you said earlier about some horses
00:43:24.940 --> 00:43:28.840
really shouldn't be written. Um, and so this
00:43:28.840 --> 00:43:30.840
is Mike, I wanted to, you know, kind of as we
00:43:30.840 --> 00:43:34.039
wrap up, like, what do you think the future now,
00:43:34.039 --> 00:43:36.400
you know, you also talked to share with me, like,
00:43:36.460 --> 00:43:39.500
you know, how, you know, the, even the competitions
00:43:39.500 --> 00:43:42.119
in the local competitions are kind of. disappearing
00:43:42.119 --> 00:43:44.480
now there's just no one there there's no one
00:43:44.480 --> 00:43:47.360
around doing this it's all like high level and
00:43:47.360 --> 00:43:49.320
that's it there's nothing that's going to be
00:43:49.320 --> 00:43:51.579
that's the end of course you know if you don't
00:43:51.579 --> 00:43:54.079
have anything Lola where are these riders going
00:43:54.079 --> 00:43:56.960
to come from but so what is the future in your
00:43:56.960 --> 00:44:00.480
thoughts and the future of the horse with um
00:44:00.480 --> 00:44:05.619
our continuation as humans well let's see it's
00:44:05.619 --> 00:44:10.070
really interesting to watch um what's happening
00:44:10.070 --> 00:44:13.409
like with the higher levels you know I noticed
00:44:13.409 --> 00:44:16.530
like Road to the Horse as exciting as it was
00:44:16.530 --> 00:44:19.909
there weren't too many people in the stands where
00:44:19.909 --> 00:44:24.010
you know Spruce Meadows has their own television
00:44:24.010 --> 00:44:27.409
station I saw them well because I was there.
00:44:27.739 --> 00:44:30.960
at the very beginning and how they marketed it,
00:44:31.500 --> 00:44:34.360
you know, show jumping down its famous sports
00:44:34.360 --> 00:44:38.800
cowboy stampede. It was quite remarkable, actually.
00:44:38.980 --> 00:44:44.139
So I witnessed that entire trajectory as well.
00:44:44.639 --> 00:44:49.639
And they built... generations of families, there's
00:44:49.639 --> 00:44:52.559
kids, grandkids, and great grandkids now that
00:44:52.559 --> 00:44:55.619
fill the stands at those horse shows every show.
00:44:55.840 --> 00:44:59.340
And it's their 50th anniversary this year, which
00:44:59.340 --> 00:45:03.380
is quite a story. If you don't know the story
00:45:03.380 --> 00:45:07.139
of Spruce Meadows, go to the website and look
00:45:07.139 --> 00:45:11.260
it up. I don't know it. Read the history of Spruce
00:45:11.260 --> 00:45:18.960
Meadows. That is a shining example. of integrity,
00:45:20.000 --> 00:45:26.059
determination, and really doing it for other
00:45:26.059 --> 00:45:30.360
people, doing it for the sport, doing it to encourage
00:45:30.360 --> 00:45:33.280
young people to come up through the sport and
00:45:33.280 --> 00:45:36.199
come up through the ranks. And they just kept
00:45:36.199 --> 00:45:39.780
building every year. They just kept adding something.
00:45:42.880 --> 00:45:47.539
wealthy family, but for a few years, they weren't.
00:45:47.760 --> 00:45:51.940
It was, you know, they cut it very close to those
00:45:51.940 --> 00:45:59.039
early years. But to build it up again, like these
00:45:59.039 --> 00:46:04.000
regions are just, the feed has gotten too expensive.
00:46:04.820 --> 00:46:08.900
The vet bills are incredibly expensive. I watched
00:46:08.900 --> 00:46:12.349
what people spend on horses and, you know, I'm
00:46:12.349 --> 00:46:14.750
glad I don't have one now. You can go bankrupt
00:46:14.750 --> 00:46:17.329
overnight if you're - You could very quickly.
00:46:17.650 --> 00:46:19.369
Yes, absolutely. Yeah. Which is another issue
00:46:19.369 --> 00:46:21.190
about all the horses that are getting sent to
00:46:21.190 --> 00:46:24.650
auction and disposed of because, you know, people
00:46:24.650 --> 00:46:26.670
get in trouble. A lot of people just get financial
00:46:26.670 --> 00:46:30.789
troubles. But yeah, so definitely spruce meadows.
00:46:31.010 --> 00:46:33.769
But so, yeah, I mean, this is a - What are we
00:46:33.769 --> 00:46:36.110
gonna do? I mean, what's gonna happen? What do
00:46:36.110 --> 00:46:38.650
you think's the next thing for horses that have
00:46:38.650 --> 00:46:40.570
outlived us? I mean, so I think they'll have
00:46:40.570 --> 00:46:42.750
a yeah, they're doing something. But what is
00:46:42.750 --> 00:46:45.389
it? Is it gonna be well, is it gonna be something
00:46:45.389 --> 00:46:50.369
else? It's recreational right in his late trail
00:46:50.369 --> 00:46:54.170
riding working at quotation, which it's huge
00:46:54.170 --> 00:46:58.659
fun. There's a lot of, you know, people who don't
00:46:58.659 --> 00:47:02.519
want to jump anymore. They're turned off dressage.
00:47:03.480 --> 00:47:07.920
So what I would like to see first of all is people
00:47:07.920 --> 00:47:11.480
that anybody who wants to ride should have access
00:47:11.480 --> 00:47:15.260
to horses, put it that way. What I can tell you
00:47:15.260 --> 00:47:18.579
here, we have a therapeutic riding center who
00:47:18.579 --> 00:47:23.079
has started offering lessons to able -bodied
00:47:23.079 --> 00:47:25.539
people but they've had a heck of a time keeping
00:47:25.539 --> 00:47:31.219
courses that they can keep sound because you
00:47:31.219 --> 00:47:34.280
know of course one horse can only do so much
00:47:34.280 --> 00:47:39.639
work in a day before they start to work but they
00:47:39.639 --> 00:47:42.719
have more requests for lessons here in private
00:47:42.719 --> 00:47:45.840
lessons and I've been asked for private lessons
00:47:47.710 --> 00:47:50.650
But we don't have the horses and we don't have
00:47:50.650 --> 00:47:53.610
the facilities. So I think a lot of people would
00:47:53.610 --> 00:47:57.510
like to ride. They'd like to get their kids into
00:47:57.510 --> 00:48:03.190
riding. But people with horses, we have liability.
00:48:04.010 --> 00:48:07.170
We have horses that don't stay sound. We have
00:48:07.170 --> 00:48:12.989
horses. A lot of what's happened is intergenerational.
00:48:13.320 --> 00:48:17.219
lameness and illness now from this whole other
00:48:17.219 --> 00:48:24.019
category of GMO feed. It's causing all kinds
00:48:24.019 --> 00:48:28.260
of gut and hind end problems in horses. I see
00:48:28.260 --> 00:48:34.719
people medicating a lot with gastro guard and,
00:48:34.719 --> 00:48:40.099
you know, dealing with ulcers. Even horses that
00:48:40.099 --> 00:48:44.289
we've got one case here, born feral, lives outside
00:48:44.289 --> 00:48:50.789
24 -7, constantly battling ulcers. So now he's
00:48:50.789 --> 00:48:56.349
been put on medication for ulcers. But once you
00:48:56.349 --> 00:48:59.590
stop it, the new research shows that there's
00:48:59.590 --> 00:49:04.809
a 90 % recurrence rate. And so if you keep going
00:49:04.809 --> 00:49:10.429
back to a product like GastroGuard, eventually
00:49:10.429 --> 00:49:12.989
the same thing happens with horses. It happens
00:49:12.989 --> 00:49:15.769
with humans on ulcer medication because it's
00:49:15.769 --> 00:49:18.829
basically the same. I forget the scientific name
00:49:18.829 --> 00:49:24.610
for the substance that keeps it at bay, but it
00:49:24.610 --> 00:49:29.550
starts to leach minerals from the bone. So now
00:49:29.550 --> 00:49:34.269
you have these horses that have weakened bone
00:49:34.269 --> 00:49:37.269
conditions. You have these intergenerational
00:49:37.269 --> 00:49:41.789
gut problems from feed that has been genetically
00:49:41.789 --> 00:49:47.630
modified and so we have this huge issue and I
00:49:47.630 --> 00:49:50.510
think awareness is part of the problem but I
00:49:50.510 --> 00:49:54.309
see a lot of these lame sick and unrideable horses
00:49:54.309 --> 00:49:59.349
are still going to the auctions so on one hand
00:49:59.349 --> 00:50:02.110
we have more people who want to ride than we
00:50:02.110 --> 00:50:06.949
have rideable horses and we have more horses
00:50:06.949 --> 00:50:11.019
in the system than people who can train them
00:50:11.019 --> 00:50:15.440
properly. But we're having issues keeping those
00:50:15.440 --> 00:50:24.239
horses healthy. So there is this big gap. Huge
00:50:24.239 --> 00:50:27.280
gap in the industry. It's also kind of a perfect
00:50:27.280 --> 00:50:30.099
storm scenario you just described. So it's gonna
00:50:30.099 --> 00:50:32.380
something's gonna have to give here. It's gonna
00:50:32.380 --> 00:50:35.300
be interesting. Yes. And then, you know, again,
00:50:35.360 --> 00:50:37.530
the show world. They're putting themselves out
00:50:37.530 --> 00:50:39.449
of business is what's happening. And I don't
00:50:39.449 --> 00:50:42.469
see it. It's not going to be there if they can,
00:50:42.530 --> 00:50:44.409
cause there's no one coming up behind them right
00:50:44.409 --> 00:50:47.210
now. Nobody, there's no word. So it's going to
00:50:47.210 --> 00:50:50.070
be gone. And that's the problem. Like you mentioned
00:50:50.070 --> 00:50:53.489
too, that there's few and fewer farms and fewer
00:50:53.489 --> 00:50:56.949
and fewer pony clubs. So what is next? I still
00:50:56.949 --> 00:50:58.650
think there's something happening. And I'm very,
00:50:58.650 --> 00:51:02.010
I'm very optimistic in my little naive bubble.
00:51:03.389 --> 00:51:06.050
Yeah, here's what, well, here's what we're going
00:51:06.050 --> 00:51:11.409
to do with, of all fairness, I was a judge at
00:51:11.409 --> 00:51:14.829
the show that, well, this past fall, where we
00:51:14.829 --> 00:51:17.389
had to cancel all the English classes. We had
00:51:17.389 --> 00:51:21.369
these kids that came and wanted to barrel race,
00:51:21.369 --> 00:51:23.550
and that's pretty much all they wanted to do.
00:51:23.630 --> 00:51:27.570
And I did a musical quadrille that people really
00:51:27.570 --> 00:51:31.280
had fun with. but it ended up being all western
00:51:31.280 --> 00:51:36.179
and I actually have a former student who's now
00:51:36.179 --> 00:51:40.059
a professional raining trainer in Scottsdale
00:51:40.059 --> 00:51:43.900
and she's working her way up into big time, big
00:51:43.900 --> 00:51:47.340
time writing like Al Dunning comments on her
00:51:47.340 --> 00:51:52.159
posts now so she's worked so that and she's got
00:51:52.159 --> 00:51:56.179
youth clients so the quarter horses the western
00:51:56.179 --> 00:52:00.300
events or perhaps it's because of Yellowstone.
00:52:00.599 --> 00:52:03.860
I don't know. They, you know, Taylor shared it
00:52:03.860 --> 00:52:06.579
and showed off some of the top, top reigning
00:52:06.579 --> 00:52:10.199
when I first saw it. And I said, wow, those are
00:52:10.199 --> 00:52:14.940
like real reigning horses. That's amazing. But
00:52:14.940 --> 00:52:18.519
there is kind of a resurgence in Western. I actually
00:52:18.519 --> 00:52:22.139
started riding at Western. Oh, no kidding. Yeah.
00:52:22.300 --> 00:52:27.090
So one of the horses I work with is Arabian horse
00:52:27.090 --> 00:52:30.090
and they're so versatile, you know, he's like,
00:52:30.389 --> 00:52:33.829
I can spin him, I can stop him. So it's fun.
00:52:34.429 --> 00:52:38.130
And so you get people back on smaller horses,
00:52:38.829 --> 00:52:43.010
quarter horses, apples as ponies. I mean, a lot
00:52:43.010 --> 00:52:48.030
of ladies who are, you know, should not stop
00:52:48.030 --> 00:52:53.110
thinking you need a 17 to hand warm blood, go
00:52:53.110 --> 00:52:57.219
get a 14 to a quarter horse or halfling or something
00:52:57.219 --> 00:53:00.860
small that is not going to scare you half to
00:53:00.860 --> 00:53:03.679
death. I've asked my clients, they go to try
00:53:03.679 --> 00:53:07.380
a horse and I said, did you canter him? Oh no,
00:53:07.880 --> 00:53:10.480
but we're going to buy him. And I said, well,
00:53:10.780 --> 00:53:15.179
if you're not comfortable, even in a trial, by
00:53:15.179 --> 00:53:17.320
cantering this horse, you can take him for a
00:53:17.320 --> 00:53:20.340
gallop. How do you think this is going to go
00:53:20.340 --> 00:53:23.800
once he's in your backyard, it goes backwards
00:53:23.800 --> 00:53:28.139
really quickly. So you have to have these horses,
00:53:28.380 --> 00:53:31.400
they're going to give you confidence, you know,
00:53:31.619 --> 00:53:37.599
and I think there is a possibility that like,
00:53:37.920 --> 00:53:41.940
okay, so this is my experiment. I'm creating
00:53:41.940 --> 00:53:46.880
classes that, okay, let's call it cowgirl equitation.
00:53:47.679 --> 00:53:50.400
So these kids don't want to barrel race, they're
00:53:50.400 --> 00:53:53.039
going to have a division because they're kind
00:53:53.039 --> 00:53:56.800
of yank, pull, kick, a little bit rough. So we're
00:53:56.800 --> 00:54:00.079
going to do barrel race direct quotation where
00:54:00.079 --> 00:54:05.079
they have to show good form. So we judged like
00:54:05.079 --> 00:54:08.460
an quotation class and then they can run their
00:54:08.460 --> 00:54:11.179
speed classes. And if they win both an quotation
00:54:11.179 --> 00:54:13.820
and speed class, they'll get a special prize.
00:54:14.260 --> 00:54:17.940
They have to show it's good form. So I'm creating
00:54:17.940 --> 00:54:22.820
all of these Western classes that are conducive
00:54:22.820 --> 00:54:26.619
to better learning in equitation and kind of
00:54:26.619 --> 00:54:30.360
like sneak classical principles in without them
00:54:30.360 --> 00:54:35.159
knowing, kind of. And, you know, give them the
00:54:35.159 --> 00:54:39.420
opportunity to create some good style with, you
00:54:39.420 --> 00:54:42.559
know, barrels pulled in and flag racing. And
00:54:42.559 --> 00:54:45.840
we're going to have a whole cowgirl theme. show.
00:54:46.219 --> 00:54:48.380
Good job. That's great. I want to hear about
00:54:48.380 --> 00:54:50.559
that. I'm going to try to replicate that even
00:54:50.559 --> 00:54:52.719
because I work with a lot of kids. But yeah,
00:54:52.719 --> 00:54:57.820
yeah. Yes, you do. They love the whole cow. I
00:54:57.820 --> 00:54:59.699
mean, I'm using cowgirl because when I'm supposed
00:54:59.699 --> 00:55:03.820
to cowgirl cowboys are welcome, of course. But
00:55:03.820 --> 00:55:06.460
if you look at the Cadillac, I was kind of inspired
00:55:06.460 --> 00:55:11.760
by the Cadillac cowgirls sail where all the horses
00:55:11.760 --> 00:55:17.469
are trained. by ladies and they built a huge
00:55:17.469 --> 00:55:22.909
cowgirl culture around cowgirl magazine, the
00:55:22.909 --> 00:55:26.949
art of the cowgirl. And so there's this subculture
00:55:26.949 --> 00:55:30.969
that people kind of love it, you know, so it's
00:55:30.969 --> 00:55:34.150
got and it kind of follows the Space Medals model
00:55:34.150 --> 00:55:38.289
of create a culture, create something that even
00:55:38.289 --> 00:55:41.780
if people don't ride, they feel Like they're
00:55:41.780 --> 00:55:45.159
part of that culture. And I think that's kind
00:55:45.159 --> 00:55:49.199
of what we have to do with horses to pull people
00:55:49.199 --> 00:55:53.380
back into it. And I fully agree. That is it's
00:55:53.380 --> 00:55:55.980
sick. This is kind of just, you know, kind of
00:55:55.980 --> 00:56:01.219
local inviting very, uh, kind of simple just
00:56:01.219 --> 00:56:03.599
way that's a invite. Yeah. That's welcome to
00:56:03.599 --> 00:56:06.460
all. You know, I don't think we're gonna have
00:56:06.460 --> 00:56:10.539
to continue this, but I just wanted to let people
00:56:10.539 --> 00:56:16.460
know where to find you. Of course, the Compassionate
00:56:16.460 --> 00:56:24.130
Equestrian Trafalgar Square Books. Yes. It's
00:56:24.130 --> 00:56:29.269
only in e -copies now. We sold all the hard copies.
00:56:29.650 --> 00:56:33.550
I did ask them about reprint, but Trafalgar Square
00:56:33.550 --> 00:56:37.550
Books has just been sold. And the new management
00:56:37.550 --> 00:56:40.869
is, I think it's called Stable Books, which makes
00:56:40.869 --> 00:56:46.000
sense. But so the future is kind of interesting.
00:56:46.260 --> 00:56:49.280
I should send you a hard copy. Send me your address
00:56:49.280 --> 00:56:53.619
and I will mail you one of the last few copies
00:56:53.619 --> 00:57:01.320
from myself back there. Thank you. Yeah. So,
00:57:01.539 --> 00:57:04.719
yes, e -copy for sure, through to Folger Square
00:57:04.719 --> 00:57:07.059
Books, which they still have their website up.
00:57:07.239 --> 00:57:11.019
And you can message me through our Facebook page.
00:57:11.099 --> 00:57:14.619
I don't have the website right now, but our Facebook
00:57:14.619 --> 00:57:19.000
group, Compassionate Equestrian, is an open page.
00:57:19.800 --> 00:57:23.679
So, yeah, definitely appreciate some likes and
00:57:23.679 --> 00:57:29.360
trust on that page. And who knows where if things
00:57:29.360 --> 00:57:33.130
start to pick up again, and there's more interest.
00:57:33.710 --> 00:57:37.090
And I said the hardest part to convince people
00:57:37.090 --> 00:57:43.090
was chapters 19 to 22. So yeah, yeah, that was
00:57:43.090 --> 00:57:47.409
that's still a hard part to get, get people to
00:57:47.409 --> 00:57:51.590
think about what happens to the full lifecycle
00:57:51.590 --> 00:57:58.309
of the horse. And I'll leave it at that. Nobody
00:57:58.309 --> 00:58:03.099
thinks about the like, you know, what's after,
00:58:03.099 --> 00:58:06.099
you know, you finished your career with a horse.
00:58:06.219 --> 00:58:08.300
Nobody thinks about that really, hardly anyone
00:58:08.300 --> 00:58:11.159
I know. There's a couple of people I know, but
00:58:11.159 --> 00:58:15.320
rare. Horse people are the worst for that actually.
00:58:15.420 --> 00:58:17.579
They are terrible. I mean, you would get, you
00:58:17.579 --> 00:58:22.099
know, hung up, you know, you'd get just banished
00:58:22.099 --> 00:58:23.679
from your community if you said, oh, I'm going
00:58:23.679 --> 00:58:25.780
to just dispose of my dog now. I'd no longer
00:58:25.780 --> 00:58:28.940
need my dog. What are you doing? Yeah, I don't
00:58:28.940 --> 00:58:30.539
want to talk to you ever again. That's terrible.
00:58:30.760 --> 00:58:32.940
But no horse. Yeah, I'm going to sell horses.
00:58:33.280 --> 00:58:37.480
Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, it's so bizarre. But it
00:58:37.480 --> 00:58:40.400
is. It is. You know, it is a very big commitment.
00:58:40.579 --> 00:58:44.900
That's why I don't own a horse. Yeah, you gotta
00:58:44.900 --> 00:58:46.440
really be ready for that commitment. You've got
00:58:46.440 --> 00:58:49.000
to be ready to have those vet bills and all this,
00:58:49.219 --> 00:58:51.780
you know, these. It's really a big endeavor,
00:58:52.360 --> 00:58:55.699
but hey, I would love to get to maybe talk to
00:58:55.699 --> 00:58:57.340
you another time and we have some more stuff
00:58:57.340 --> 00:59:01.219
to share online. And I just want to thank you
00:59:01.219 --> 00:59:04.079
again for taking the time. Yeah, you're most
00:59:04.079 --> 00:59:08.000
welcome. And send me your address and I'll send
00:59:08.000 --> 00:59:09.980
you a book and I'll send you a picture of TC.
00:59:10.559 --> 00:59:13.800
Thank you. I love that. All right. I hope to
00:59:13.800 --> 00:59:15.900
talk to you again soon. Take care. Absolutely.
00:59:16.199 --> 00:59:18.619
Take care. Thank you again. Thank you for joining.
00:59:18.829 --> 00:59:22.389
this episode on the Centaur podcast. I'm Cameron
00:59:22.389 --> 00:59:24.829
Adibi again, and please check out my website
00:59:24.829 --> 00:59:28.210
to learn more about what I do at cameronadibi
00:59:28.210 --> 00:59:31.969
.com. That's C -A -M -R -O -N -A -D -I -B -I
00:59:31.969 --> 00:59:35.769
.com. I hope you enjoyed this discussion and
00:59:35.769 --> 00:59:38.409
gained some valuable insights. Don't forget to
00:59:38.409 --> 00:59:41.989
subscribe and tune in next time for more engaging
00:59:41.989 --> 00:59:44.269
conversations. Until then, take care.