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Hello and welcome to the Business Behind Sport podcast series from Ankura, the Global Expert Services and Advisory Firm.
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I'm Rich Patel, a director on our London team at Ankura.
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In this series, we talk to sport industry leaders to explore their perspectives and insights on a variety of current topics and themes relating to the business side of sport.
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Hello and welcome to the Ankura Business Behind Sport podcast.
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My name is Johnny Gray.
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We're recording this podcast on the day after the announcement that the FIFA Congress has awarded the rights to host the FIFA World Cup 2034 to the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia.
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And I'm absolutely delighted to have on the podcast today General Counsel of the Saudi Arabian Football Federation, Polly Hanford.
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Welcome, Polly.
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Hello, Johnny.
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Thank you so much for having me.
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And yes, indeed, a very exciting day.
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It was yesterday, and indeed uh exciting times ahead.
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Yes, well, listen, tell me a bit about yesterday.
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I think you were actually there when the presentations were made and so on.
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How did it all play out?
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Yeah, I was I was very privileged to be there.
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I was I was invited to go to the exhibition centre where the the bid exhibition is and the sports minister was, and our president and vice president and general secretary, and and the presentation that was made to the Congress by the two young people who were amazing, two young children.
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And it was an iconic moment, I have to say, and it felt so special to be there.
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So they streamed the part of Congress that was open to the public.
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And whilst, yes, I accept that you know we were the only bidder, we didn't have the World Cup until the announcement was made.
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And the elation that you felt in the room, and just I mean, it brought tears to my eyes, it really did.
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And I didn't know.
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I haven't really here for for you know, I'm I'm not a Saudi, but I I feel like I I belong here now, and it just felt so amazing to be there.
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And it's just the buzz around the kingdom is incredible.
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There's loads planned for this weekend, there's gonna be fireworks, and you know, whether you are from Saudi or or not living here, you you can just feel it.
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Yeah, well, I as you know, I was there last week, and you could you could just sense the growing excitement and anticipation for the decision yesterday.
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And of course, as you say, I mean, yes, as it played out, Saudi was the only bidder, but I think people may not know that you still have to submit a very thorough bid, and the bid has to pass lesson.
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And um I think I'm right in saying this this bid got the highest tactical score of any bid ever, so it's a very exciting time, as you say.
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Indeed, and the amount of work that went into the bid, it was never ever taken for granted.
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It was there was so much work put in both by the Federation, by the bid team, by the Ministry of Sport, by everybody, and nobody took it for granted.
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And people still don't take it for granted.
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It is such a massive achievement, but there was huge amounts of work that went into it, genuine work, and I've been so impressed by the amount of work that went into it and and just the professionalism that uh everybody has shown in producing the bid document that went in, and and obviously I think it was the marks that it got were absolutely merited and absolutely uh well earned.
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So I'm I'm delighted for everybody.
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Well, fantastic, and I think what we'll do, Polly, is we'll we'll come back to that and what it means for football in Saudi Arabia and you know, in general, and obviously, you know, your role, you've moved there relatively recently, brought in from the football association in the UK to help take football forward in Saudi Arabia.
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So let's come back to that.
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But I think our listeners, you know, I mean, you're really well known in football, so many people listening to this will know you personally, but many won't.
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So maybe we could go back and just you know, it'd be really interesting to chart out sort of your journey to this amazing role you have now.
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I mean, if you're gonna be a general counsel of a football federation, to be the Saudi Football Federation that's gonna be probably the best job going.
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I think you studied law at Bristol back in the day.
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What attracted you to law?
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Why why law?
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Well, actually at Bristol I studied English and philosophy.
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Oh, did you?
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Okay.
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I did.
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I always wanted to be a lawyer when I was I had to do work experience when I was at school when I was about 15, and I did some work experience in a law firm, and and actually that nearly put me off because I was put in a room with a law book and and wasn't given a huge amount of experience.
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So I didn't know.
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Um but it was always there that I always wanted to be a lawyer.
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My dad always said I was good at arguing, and so it was no surprise I did end up being a litigator.
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But the sort of the English literature had always been my love, and the philosophy side absolutely fascinated me.
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So I did uh a degree in English and philosophy, I then did a conversion course in law, and then obviously my LPC, and then went into my training contract.
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I took a year off between going to university and law school just to decide really did I want to do that.
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So I went and did a ski season, and that massively improved my French as well.
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Then I'd done French A level.
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So, you know, I I I look back on that was really funny.
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Where did you ski?
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Which was it was in Switzerland, in the French side of Switzerland, um, in the Four Valleys, and and you know, had an amazing time there.
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And I was asked to stay on for and I stayed for the summer.
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I did a summer season and I was asked to do another year and thought I'd love to do it, but actually I need to get real and knuckle down.
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So I I went to law school and actually loved law school.
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I was really ready for it then.
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I was really ready to to do it from a practical point of view and and absolutely loved it.
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I I I went to the College of Law as was in in Store Street in London.
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I felt like I I'd found my calling, but looking back, I'm I'm also quite pleased that I did do the English and philosophy because I got that, I'd sort of tick that box that it was something that was also one of my passions.
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So I felt very lucky to have been able to do that and then convert to law.
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That seems like a very long, long time ago now.
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But uh and you you joined Forster's in 2000, I think, after that.
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Yeah, I actually trained at a law firm called Wedlake St.
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It historically it'd been part of the Wedlake was part of Wedlake Bell, but I left when I was two years qualified and I went to Forster's in 2000.
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So I was sort of two years qualified.
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I always think that lawyers are probably at the most marketable at two years, they've got their experience.
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I had amazing experience in my training contract.
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I was exposed to a lot of things, and because it was a smaller firm, I was given a lot of responsibility at a very young age, but I decided that I wanted to go down the sort of the more the commercial litigation route.
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And Forsters had had established two years previously.
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So it was a it was a newish firm but with huge ambition.
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And I stayed there for 10 years and really enjoyed my time there.
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I had some amazing clients and amazing experience as a commercial litigator.
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But then yeah, made the leap to go in-house in 2010.
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Yes, I always think the naughs, not many law firms, had sports practices at that point.
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Did you do any work in sport?
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I mean, obviously you left to go to the rugby football union, which is the governing body of rugby union in England.
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But had there been any sports work at Forster's?
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No, not really.
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I mean, I'd done, I think, a an odd thing in boxing, but I never really intended to go into sports law.
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My ambition and and my my pathway was always going to be a partner in a law firm.
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I was at Forsters and I I really enjoyed it there.
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I was actually going through the partnership process when I applied to the for the job at the RFU.
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It was really as a backup.
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You can say that now.
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I can say that now, years on.
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But um, at the time I just thought I if I didn't get partnership at that point, I was I wasn't sure whether I was going to stay.
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And then, you know, like buses, I was offered a partnership out outside of London.
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I went for the interview at the RFU.
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I didn't really think I was going to get it, but then by the time they invited me back for my second interview, I'd been given partnership at Forster's.
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So it was suddenly, it was like it I call it my sliding doors moment.
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So I had what I'd always sort of dreamed of being as a partner.
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And it was a really interesting time in my in my career, and and I found it really difficult.
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And I went to speak to this amazing lawyer who was one of the founding partners at Forster's, who's a bit of a mentor, and said, Look, I've got this offer, I don't know what to do.
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And she said to me, It's a really, really big move going in-house.
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You need to think about this.
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And I was about to go on holiday, but I knew that once I became a partner, my notice period was going to be six months.
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And because the RFU knew that I'd I had an offer partnership, they they wanted me to come within three months.
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So I was in this really difficult position, and she was amazing.
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She said, I'm going to take your notice, but you go away and think about it.
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So the three months were bite, but you know, we'll let you go if you really decide you want to go.
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So I went away, thought about it.
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I will I became a partner.
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Suddenly I was getting messages from all over the place from people I'd worked for and with from many years before about this announcement of me becoming a partner.
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And uh, so I was a partner for three months and I left.
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And I think I've sort of slightly gone down in history on that because people left because they didn't get partnership, not because when they did.
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But you know, and for a while, when I f back and I thought, oh, well, have I done the right thing?
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But within a few months of being in-house, I thought, no, it's you know, financially obviously it makes a difference in in terms of had I stayed and progressed as a partner and a sort of more senior partner, but it was never about that for me.
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It was about wanting to enjoy what I was doing.
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And so I haven't ever looked back.
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And it I I look back with fondness because it was a very difficult time making that decision, and I lent on a lot of people, and I wanted someone else to make the decision for me if I'm if I'm honest, because it was such a difficult one at the time, but yeah, it was my sliding doors moment, but yeah, so I left.
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And were you were you a rugby fan, or was it rugby in particular, or was it just the job came up and you thought that sounds interesting?
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It was both really.
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I mean, I I grew up with football, and then I when I was at at Bristol, I got into rugby then.
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It was the Five Nations then, and I used to watch the the Five Nations, and so I did love watching rugby.
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I'd never obviously played it, but I'd probably grown up more with football.
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I was a football fan as a young child, and and my dad and my brother also watched football.
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So I sort of loved all sports really.
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I loved tennis, I loved I loved all sports, but it was a chance to move into something that was a bit more specialised, but something that was that was really interesting that I was interested in.
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So yeah, I mean I was slightly surprised to have got the job, but I think it was more around they were looking for a commercial litigator and also someone that would fit into the team.
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And I and I think you've spoken to Karina Vleck before, but I I got on very well with her and we and we worked really well together.
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Of course, yeah.
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You would have she's been on the show before, and you would have been there about the same time actually.
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Now you mentioned that.
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Yeah, so she she recruited me, yeah.
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Oh okay, yeah, yeah.
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And you know, and we went through some difficult times whilst I was there.
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I I left at the end of 2013, so I was there for sort of three and a half years.
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But yeah, I mean I never looked back.
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I I loved my time there, and it was a massive learning curve as well.
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And learning to be an in-house lawyer, one of the first things I was surprised about, everyone said, Oh, you don't need to do any any time recording now.
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But I missed time recording, which sounds bizarre.
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But I um, I mean, I certainly don't now, but at the time, I sort of I was so used to being able to, when I was really busy, I could see how many, how many hours I'd recorded.
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I was really, really busy when I went into the RFU and I was heavily involved in the pay TV dispute because we were an intervener in in that in the Competition Appeals Tribunal.
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And I was working really long hours, and sometimes I'd be sort of one of the last to leave, if not the last to leave the office.
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And yet nobody knew that how many hours I'd done because no recording.
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I soon got over that, but yeah, that was one of the initial shocks of being in-house.
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But yeah.
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So we we had James Stebby on the podcast recently.
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We talked about law and rugby at length on that one.
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So we we won't dwell on it, although I would be interested to know what the challenges were you referred to, but I think we should press on, Polly.
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You did as you say, you did, I think, nearly four years at the RFU and then back to private practice again.
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Tell us a little bit about that.
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So that was a brief interlude back into private practice.
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So when I was at the RFU, I think because I'd only just been made a partner at Forster's, I think there was there was still a a bit of me thinking, should I have done it?
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And in-house it was a small team at the RFU, and there is a glass ceiling.
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So I and I thought, right, what next?
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And I was approached by a sports boutique practice to set up a dispute resolution arm in their practice.
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And again, it was a really difficult decision because I loved my time at the RFU, but this opportunity seemed like it was a good one, and I think it probably would have been.
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But I went there and I think I soon realised I probably was more suited to being an in-house lawyer.
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So it's one of those moments I've always said to people, don't look back and regret the opportunities you didn't take.
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And I don't regret doing that, but I think it made me realise actually I'm much more suited to being an in-house lawyer.
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So I stayed there for six months and an opportunity came up at the FA, and it was a bit of a sideways move.
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So, whereas usually in your in your career, you should be sort of progressing, and you know, people tell you you should be climbing that ladder, and it was a bit of a sideways move, but you know, looking back, it was a great move for me.
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But I decided football was so big, and football I knew as well, and I'd had the grounding from the sports law from the RFU.
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So I went for the interview and got the job and moved there in 2014.
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So initially head of legal, and then I think you took on governance a few years later as well, including things like um integrity and those sorts of issues.
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Exactly.
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Yeah, so I mean I don't know whether restructures follow me, but when I joined the RFU straight away there was a restructure, and then when I joined the FA, there was a restructure and they were looking to change things.
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And as a lawyer, you think I've got no employment rights here and whatever, but thankfully it all worked out.
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So within a couple of years, I I was promoted twice.
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And so by 2016, I became the director of legal and governance.
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But prior to the restructure, there'd only been a legal director and a governance director, and then it was sort of the legal team was merged into the governance side, and then it was sort of restructured again.
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So I then became the first legal and governance director of the FA in 2016.
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So it was sort of a it was a a merging of various different departments.
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Yeah, I mean I think in-house lawyer, I think most people probably got a good sense of what that is, and it's ahead of that, you know, you're everything presumably is crossing your desk, but it's ahead of governance.
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Just talk a bit more about what that was, because that was definitely a new thing for the FA, wasn't it?
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Combining those two things.
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Yeah, I mean the FA did have a director of governance before, and then through the restructure it became, I think, football regulation and administration or something.
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So they've merged various different things, and and that didn't really work.
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And so they split it again.
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So I took on the the governance side of the game, which was more around discipline, and and they split the footballer operations to the footballer operations director.
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So I worked very closely with with him and joined at the same time as me becoming director.
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So the governance side, in effect, was integrity, which included anti-doping, safeguard, so the case management side of safeguarding, and investigations, which was basically any breach of any rules or regulations within the game.
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And we also had a prosecutions team, a team of barristers that prosecuted the cases.
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And then the legal side was slightly separate.
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So it was all merged, it all sort of worked together, but the governance side was very much game governance, and then there was obviously the corporate governance side with the company secretary, which also reported in to me.
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So it was a very wide remit, and I had a team by the time I left of about 65 people.
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And Polly, tell me, you know, as a lawyer, now with its quite broader set of remits, did you embrace I mean you obviously did it, but did you embrace that?
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Was that a new and interesting challenge to sort of you know the integrity side of the game and the discipline, the codes and all of that?
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How did you how did you sort of spend your time, if you like?
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Well, I think it's all based on regulations and regulation.
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I mean, I'd I'd been exposed to it as well at the RFU, so the safeguarding team reported in to me at the RFU as well, and and obviously I dealt with discipline there as well.
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As a commercial litigator, your skill sets do tend to lend itself to the sort of the governance side, the regulatory side of things.
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And so rather than looking at a law, you're looking at the regulations and it's all based on contract.
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So it was a natural progression for me.
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Any breach of the regulations is like a a breach of a law in some ways.
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But it's sport specific.
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So you need to make sure that that you are applying the specificities of the sport to the regulations.
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And that I suppose is where sports law becomes slightly different because you always have a discretion as to how you exercise your powers under the regulations.
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And what I did with with the team that I had at the time was we tried to clarify when we would use that discretion and what basis we would use to prosecute.
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Because football is so huge, you could say you take a take an example of misconduct.
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Lots of people will say lots of things are misconduct or bringing the game into disrepute.
00:16:42.559 --> 00:16:50.720
What brings the game into disrepute can become quite subjective, and you need to make sure that it's that you've got the same standards across the board.
00:16:50.799 --> 00:16:58.000
So what my team and I tried to do was to make it as clear as possible and as transparent as possible as to when we would take action and when we wouldn't.
00:16:58.240 --> 00:17:05.440
We issued a policy to show when we would take action, say for example, in discrimination, and we said that that was across the board.
00:17:05.519 --> 00:17:08.960
We weren't going to tolerate any discrimination, whether it was online or or not.
00:17:09.200 --> 00:17:15.759
But in other forms of misconduct, if it wasn't football related, then there was a limit to how far we could go.
00:17:15.839 --> 00:17:24.720
So how far is it the football regulator's responsibility to go and regulate somebody that might be doing something that someone doesn't approve of, but it's outside of the sport?
00:17:24.960 --> 00:17:28.000
Sort of in a nightclub type, you know, those type of exactly, exactly.
00:17:28.079 --> 00:17:33.599
So if someone had a fight in a nightclub and there was no relation to football, you don't condone it.
00:17:33.680 --> 00:17:34.880
You don't want that sort of behaviour.
00:17:34.960 --> 00:17:38.319
And the club themselves, in their employment relationship, might want to take action.
00:17:38.400 --> 00:17:42.319
But from a sports governing body perspective, you have to have your lines.
00:17:42.480 --> 00:17:45.759
And sometimes they were challenged, and sometimes people wouldn't like it.
00:17:45.920 --> 00:17:56.319
But I think the main thing was to be clear so that we could say that these are the policies, and particularly when it comes to the media, you know, there's a lot of interest from the media in in the sport and on the disciplinary side.
00:17:56.480 --> 00:17:58.319
And so we had to be really clear.
00:17:58.480 --> 00:18:01.200
No, that doesn't sit with us because of X, Y, or Z.
00:18:01.279 --> 00:18:03.279
Or yes, it does because of X, Y, or Z.
00:18:03.599 --> 00:18:09.200
Not always easy, but uh in a way that's what kept it so interesting because there was always a challenge.
00:18:09.359 --> 00:18:12.319
There would always be something that you haven't thought of.
00:18:12.559 --> 00:18:17.839
So I think I did this for you when um betting on eating a pie is is that in breach of it?
00:18:18.160 --> 00:18:20.000
And you remember that.
00:18:20.240 --> 00:18:24.640
I started for a long time at law school for this, at University of Law England, really.
00:18:24.799 --> 00:18:29.359
But um, but you know, it it was like Was that Sutton United in the FA Cup game or something?
00:18:29.920 --> 00:18:30.880
FA Cup game, exactly.
00:18:31.279 --> 00:18:31.839
I do remember that.
00:18:31.920 --> 00:18:37.440
Um so you know, there was always something, and you know, we can sort of jest about some of it was sort of hugely serious.
00:18:37.599 --> 00:18:56.559
And when I took on my role, the first thing that I dealt with as the director of legal and governance was the non-recent child abuse that came out, and it was literally as my I took on my new role in 2016, which was you know, obviously has had devastating effects on lots of people, but and we didn't know what we were dealing with, so I was asked to set up a review into that.
00:18:56.640 --> 00:19:05.279
And we had the Clive Sheldon case review, which ended up not being published until COVID, so it was in 2020, but it was there was huge amounts of work in that.
00:19:05.359 --> 00:19:37.440
And we had to be very careful that it had to be independent, and it was from the FA's perspective, we didn't know what was going to be uncovered, and we were looking back over sort of 30 years of sort of documents and having gone through prior to that sort of the Hillsborough Inquest as well, looking backwards, it felt like we kept looking backwards over previous documents for very, very important reasons, but it was certainly a challenge because you have to get that balance right, you have to protect the organisation, but you also have to be absolutely transparent about what's happening, and if there was something that was going to be uncovered, we would have to deal with that.
00:19:37.599 --> 00:19:43.200
But yeah, as the first major thing that I was responsible for as the director was um a difficult one.
00:19:43.519 --> 00:19:54.880
Yeah, and you can imagine you know the FA being a regulator of all football in England, and you know, complicated relationships with the other stakeholders like the Premier League and the EFL.
00:19:55.200 --> 00:20:00.960
But you would imagine every Monday morning you would come in and there would be something sort of on your desk from the weekend.
00:20:01.519 --> 00:20:02.960
It's an interesting role.
00:20:03.359 --> 00:20:15.519
Obviously, you know, with the responsibility for sort of regulatory issues and so on, you know, you would have probably been involved in the Crouch Review and the independent football regulator and all of that.
00:20:15.920 --> 00:20:17.519
How do you see that, Polly?
00:20:17.680 --> 00:20:20.000
Because I think you know, two schools of thought on this.
00:20:20.079 --> 00:20:38.000
There's one which is, you know, we need to protect the game from itself, if you like, and the other is well, hold on a minute, we're about to regulate, you know, one of England's most successful products and exports, and the FA sometimes coming in for criticism as being a bit of a weak regulator, having missed opportunities perhaps along the way.
00:20:38.240 --> 00:20:43.279
Looking back on it now with a bit of distance from it, how do you see that whole discussion?
00:20:43.599 --> 00:20:51.440
You know, I have my personal views on it, but I I think unless you've worked within football regulation, it's very easy to judge from the outside.
00:20:51.599 --> 00:20:51.759
Right.
00:20:51.920 --> 00:20:59.519
And actually, when you see what the EFL does, you when you see what the Premier League does, and you when you see what the FA does, they are very, very responsible bodies.
00:20:59.680 --> 00:21:07.680
And you know, we used to agonise over making the right decisions on on things and know that it would come under scrutiny, but we ultimately wanted to do the right thing.
00:21:07.839 --> 00:21:19.599
And I know that the Premier League and the EFL are the same, so I think regulation is really difficult, and I think to add another layer of regulation is personally is going to be difficult as well because there was already a lot of regulation.
00:21:19.759 --> 00:21:24.079
You've got FIFA, you've got UEFA, you've got the Premier League and the EFL, and then you've got the FA.
00:21:24.400 --> 00:21:28.720
And then when you add another another layer of regulation on top, I just think it's going to be difficult.
00:21:28.880 --> 00:21:37.119
Personally, I think it's not that I wouldn't want to be involved in it, but I just think it's going to be difficult to really get those lines absolutely clear as to who's doing what.
00:21:37.279 --> 00:21:40.720
And there's bound to be some crossover, whether it's the right thing or wrong thing.
00:21:40.799 --> 00:21:51.039
Like I said, I've got my personal views, but it's I'm not going to draw those out of you today, but they will, you know, it came out of the collapse of Berry and then the European Super League.
00:21:51.119 --> 00:21:59.759
And I, you know, I lived through the European Super League and we all worked really closely together on that from the body's perspective, from the Premier League, the EFL and the FA.
00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:01.440
And actually it didn't last long.
00:22:01.599 --> 00:22:03.839
It would have collapsed soon after it started.
00:22:03.920 --> 00:22:06.880
But I suppose the threat of it was what shocked everybody.
00:22:07.119 --> 00:22:15.440
But whether the regulator is the answer to that or not, but unfortunately that there will always be a club that is going to be in financial difficulty, whether there's a regulator there or not.
00:22:15.680 --> 00:22:21.119
So it will be interesting to see whether it does actually solve any problems or not, or whether it just adds more complications.
00:22:21.200 --> 00:22:23.200
But but time will Yeah, time will tell.
00:22:23.279 --> 00:22:23.759
You're right.
00:22:23.839 --> 00:22:29.599
And you know, I I as you know, Ankura gets heavily involved in financial fair play matters and things of that nature.
00:22:29.680 --> 00:22:46.799
And I I sort of think it's quite challenging if you look at a club playing at the top of the pyramid, you know, it's got to file its statutory account in the tax year, it's got to comply with the financial regulations of the Premier League and UEFA, and they're all different, and they're all different calendar periods.
00:22:46.960 --> 00:22:55.599
So it's already very complicated, and you know, adding another body in there, you know, as you say, makes it quite crowded.
00:22:55.759 --> 00:22:58.240
But let's see how that's not your problem anymore.
00:22:58.559 --> 00:23:00.799
It may be successful and it, you know, it may help.
00:23:01.119 --> 00:23:02.480
And and if it does, then great.
00:23:02.640 --> 00:23:06.160
But yeah, it is a complicated world, the world of regulatory bodies.
00:23:06.559 --> 00:23:07.359
Exactly.
00:23:07.599 --> 00:23:10.000
So, Saudi, how did that happen?
00:23:10.079 --> 00:23:13.039
What what what can you say about that process, Polly?
00:23:13.279 --> 00:23:14.799
It took everybody by surprise.
00:23:14.880 --> 00:23:21.519
I would first of all just say that I think you know this, that the football world went, oh wow, okay, that is quite news.
00:23:21.759 --> 00:23:25.119
Yeah, so I mean, I've never been in a job for more than 10 years.
00:23:25.200 --> 00:23:29.039
I did nearly leave the FA two years before, but then pulled out.
00:23:29.279 --> 00:23:31.200
And it had sort of turned my head a bit.
00:23:31.279 --> 00:23:33.440
And I because I've always sort of thought, what next?
00:23:33.599 --> 00:23:41.519
But I was in Qatar for the World Cup in 2022 in November, and I was lucky enough to be sent there as part of my role with FIFA on the disciplinary body.
00:23:41.680 --> 00:23:46.799
And I used to go and sit on my balcony going through my emails, waiting for the UK to come online.
00:23:47.200 --> 00:23:48.640
And the sun was shining down.
00:23:48.720 --> 00:23:52.000
And for anyone that knows me, I don't like cold weather, I love the sun.
00:23:52.240 --> 00:23:54.400
And bizarrely, somebody contacted me.
00:23:54.640 --> 00:23:55.839
And it was it was this time of year.
00:23:55.920 --> 00:23:57.759
I mean, it was winter in England.
00:23:58.000 --> 00:24:00.319
I mean, I can tell you it's cold back here, probably.
00:24:00.480 --> 00:24:02.640
So you can see why you'd be enjoying it.
00:24:02.880 --> 00:24:03.119
Yeah.
00:24:03.200 --> 00:24:11.680
And I was contacted by a headhunter for a different role actually in Saudi, wouldn't usually have responded, but I just responded saying, Well, just tell me a bit about it.
00:24:11.839 --> 00:24:17.200
And she told me a bit about it and told me a bit about sort of what's happening in Saudi Arabia, which I'd obviously read a bit anyway.
00:24:17.359 --> 00:24:20.079
And it got me thinking, but it wasn't the right time for me.
00:24:20.240 --> 00:24:22.079
It probably wasn't the right role either.
00:24:22.240 --> 00:24:24.640
But again, it was sort of planted a bit of a seed.
00:24:24.799 --> 00:24:31.279
And so when I was contacted about the potential of coming to work for the Football Federation, it's obviously what I know, it was what I was doing in the FA.
00:24:31.440 --> 00:24:38.160
And I met the president of SAF of Saudi Arabian Football Federation when he was over in London and had a chat with him.
00:24:38.319 --> 00:24:40.079
And I was almost sold on the spot.
00:24:40.160 --> 00:24:42.000
He is an amazing, amazing man.
00:24:42.240 --> 00:24:42.799
He is amazing.
00:24:43.440 --> 00:24:43.599
Yeah.
00:24:43.839 --> 00:24:51.920
Um, hugely impressive, really intelligent, but just a sort of very human person, given how successful he's been.
00:24:52.079 --> 00:24:55.200
And I just thought, you know, he's he's a leader I would really love to work with.
00:24:55.359 --> 00:24:58.559
So I think I'd been at the FA for nine and a half years by then.
00:24:58.720 --> 00:25:02.000
My youngest child was finishing her A levels, she was going to be off at university.
00:25:02.079 --> 00:25:03.599
So both my children were going to be at university.
00:25:03.680 --> 00:25:06.400
So I thought, I wonder whether this actually is a possibility.
00:25:06.640 --> 00:25:12.799
And then I met the vice president who's someone called Lamia, who's she's an amazing woman in Saudi football.
00:25:12.880 --> 00:25:19.680
And I met the general secretary, equally as impressive, and thought that that's the leadership that I would I would really love to be a part of.
00:25:19.920 --> 00:25:26.240
So went through the process, but thought this is a really massive move, not just moving jobs, but also moving countries.
00:25:26.400 --> 00:25:30.000
So you know, there's all those things, isn't it?
00:25:30.240 --> 00:25:31.119
Yeah, exactly.
00:25:31.279 --> 00:25:34.960
And so they said to me, come out, come and see us, come and visit.
00:25:35.039 --> 00:25:42.000
So I I flew out probably about a year ago now, and I I came out with my husband and we were shown round.
00:25:42.079 --> 00:25:47.279
And to begin with, I thought, and my husband had was just about to start a new job, so it was going to be just me.
00:25:47.519 --> 00:25:51.279
And I thought, can I do this on my own with my family back home?
00:25:51.519 --> 00:25:54.319
And the first night I just thought, I'm not, I'm I just I'm not sure about this.
00:25:54.400 --> 00:25:55.920
And the second night I thought, oh, maybe.
00:25:56.000 --> 00:25:57.759
And then the third night, I said, actually, I think I can.
00:25:57.839 --> 00:26:00.400
And we sat down and talked it through and talked how it would work.
00:26:00.559 --> 00:26:04.799
And and actually it's been again another thing that I haven't looked back on.
00:26:05.039 --> 00:26:07.279
It was a big decision, but it felt right.
00:26:07.519 --> 00:26:08.400
It felt like that.
00:26:08.480 --> 00:26:14.559
What's happening in Saudi Arabia in sport and particularly in football, it was almost a now or or never moment.
00:26:14.799 --> 00:26:20.000
And I felt that that opportunity, as you sort of said earlier, that would be an amazing position to have.
00:26:20.160 --> 00:26:22.880
If I don't take it now, it won't come up again for a long time.
00:26:23.599 --> 00:26:26.880
And I just thought this is an opportunity I can't turn down.
00:26:27.279 --> 00:26:35.119
And so it's nearly eight months on, and yeah, I mean, it's you experienced you have to come to Saudi to really know what it's like.
00:26:35.279 --> 00:26:41.279
There's a lot of people that judge it from outside, and from my perspective, it's an amazing country.
00:26:41.359 --> 00:26:46.480
I have never felt so welcome or so valued in any job, I don't think.
00:26:46.640 --> 00:26:58.720
And they're so open to change, they're so open to to learning about how things work in different parts of the country in sport, and and so my experience from Fort in England, I think, is helpful.
00:26:58.799 --> 00:27:06.720
But I'm also conscious that I I don't want to just reproduce what we had in English football because it's you want to take the best bits.
00:27:07.039 --> 00:27:07.440
Yes.
00:27:07.680 --> 00:27:08.640
Let's come back to that.
00:27:08.799 --> 00:27:10.960
Maybe just dwell on something very interesting.
00:27:11.119 --> 00:27:14.720
You said, Holly, that you know, you've got to go there and you've got to see it.
00:27:15.119 --> 00:27:18.960
I think two things that you know I took away from my time there last week.
00:27:19.200 --> 00:27:22.799
First of all, is the the clarity of vision.
00:27:23.039 --> 00:27:38.480
I mean, it's something that perhaps democracies in the West and so on find difficult to do now, but you know, that absolute unifying sense of purpose that runs all the way from the Crown Prince down to everybody you talk to, they're all very clear on what they're doing.
00:27:38.720 --> 00:27:45.599
And secondly, I think, you know, a lot of the criticism is written, you know, it's some of it's clickbait, I think, to be frank.
00:27:45.839 --> 00:27:59.200
But I also I was just astounded by the pace of liberalization, the pace of change, how comfortable I I felt we were travelling with some female colleagues, how comfortable they felt in that whole environment.
00:27:59.519 --> 00:28:02.240
Just you must have thought about those sort of issues.
00:28:02.319 --> 00:28:07.599
How how did you both the clarity thing and the pace of change when deciding to take the job?
00:28:07.839 --> 00:28:11.599
Can you talk a little bit more about your thought processes and how you found all that?
00:28:12.000 --> 00:28:12.319
Sure.
00:28:12.559 --> 00:28:25.839
When I came out to visit, I met Lamia, who's the vice president of the the Saudi Football Federation, who was talking to me about her journey and about her journey as she played football, it was sort of behind closed doors.
00:28:26.079 --> 00:28:29.039
But how changes happened for women here.
00:28:29.359 --> 00:28:33.920
And and then I spoke to a few of a couple of other women that work within the federation.
00:28:34.079 --> 00:28:40.880
And I mean they're making a joke saying actually the men are quite jealous now because women are taking over the world, but you don't feel it.
00:28:40.960 --> 00:28:42.319
I feel incredibly valued.
00:28:42.400 --> 00:28:50.799
I don't feel any different here from how I did back in the UK, being a woman working in sport, and you just you don't see it either.
00:28:51.039 --> 00:29:02.960
It was something, obviously, it's the unknown, but not having been to Saudi Arabia before, it was something that you do think about, whether you know what you need to wear and how you dress, and you know, you have to be you have to be respectful as well.
00:29:03.119 --> 00:29:04.720
I'm I'm a visitor in their country.
00:29:04.799 --> 00:29:05.680
I have to be respectful.
00:29:05.759 --> 00:29:13.599
I've never been told how to dress, or but you just respect the culture and you respect the differences just as they would with me.
00:29:13.839 --> 00:29:16.880
And it doesn't feel odd, it really doesn't.
00:29:17.119 --> 00:29:19.599
People talk about the cultural differences, and of course there are.
00:29:19.680 --> 00:29:29.440
There are religious differences, and you know, they have different religious holidays, and so for example, Christmas is coming up and I'm taking some time off for Christmas, which is absolutely fun.
00:29:29.599 --> 00:29:33.200
And you know, you you can see Christmas decorations in certain places here as well.
00:29:33.279 --> 00:29:37.200
So it's it's a very tolerant environment, it feels it.
00:29:37.359 --> 00:29:38.960
I don't feel an outsider.
00:29:39.119 --> 00:29:46.319
Yes, I'm a foreigner, I'm an expat, but I feel incredibly welcome, and I also feel incredibly safe.
00:29:46.480 --> 00:29:49.599
And I think I feel uh feel safer here than I probably would.
00:29:50.240 --> 00:29:51.359
Yeah, I think you said that last week.
00:29:51.519 --> 00:29:54.480
You're all feeling safer safer than you do in the parts of London.
00:29:54.640 --> 00:29:56.160
Yeah, well, thank you for sharing that.
00:29:56.240 --> 00:30:03.519
And I think it's important, you know, that because places are different, that actually makes the world more interesting and more more fun.
00:30:03.680 --> 00:30:06.319
I think you know, this binary, well, we're right, you're wrong.
00:30:06.400 --> 00:30:07.359
I don't like any of that.
00:30:07.519 --> 00:30:13.119
And and I think last week in Sadi, I was just I I just really impressed by everything that's going on there.
00:30:13.440 --> 00:30:16.240
Polly, you've been there now you know nine months or so.
00:30:16.640 --> 00:30:24.240
So you've had your your first in the management speak terms, you've had your first a hundred days at the end of that period.
00:30:24.559 --> 00:30:30.880
How do you see your role going forward in shaping football in Saudi Arabia?
00:30:31.039 --> 00:30:36.319
You know, if I said what are your sort of three priorities or areas that you're going to focus on?
00:30:36.400 --> 00:30:37.839
What how would you define those?
00:30:38.240 --> 00:30:45.920
I mean, I think in terms of the sort of the legal side and and the governance side, I think something like safeguarding is going to be different here.
00:30:46.079 --> 00:30:52.880
Culturally, it's going to be different, but there's a lot that I'd like to I'd like to do in terms of introducing more from the safeguarding perspective.
00:30:52.960 --> 00:30:57.039
I mean, obviously, we have policy and we're aware of it, but the other thing is education.
00:30:57.119 --> 00:31:01.599
So very, very keen on educating the younger Saudi population.
00:31:02.079 --> 00:31:07.759
And that's something that with my team at the FA, we used to do a lot of, and we used to go out to the clubs and and talk to the clubs.
00:31:07.839 --> 00:31:11.519
And so I'd love to be a part of that, and there's a lot of support for that.
00:31:11.759 --> 00:31:17.759
In terms of my own department, I'm looking to grow certain elements of it, particularly from the integrity side.
00:31:17.839 --> 00:31:19.119
I think there's a lot more that we could do.
00:31:19.200 --> 00:31:22.799
There's a lot of good work that's already been done, but I think we can build on that.
00:31:22.880 --> 00:31:27.839
So the foundations are there, safeguarding the disciplinary, the sort of anti-corruption.
00:31:27.920 --> 00:31:29.680
But I think there's a lot more that we could do.
00:31:29.839 --> 00:31:40.799
So I'd like to take my experiences from English football and bring that here and so that we could we can start to build it, but also try to ensure that there is a pipeline of people coming through.
00:31:41.039 --> 00:31:44.720
So, as I'm sure everybody's heard, the Saudi population is very young.
00:31:44.880 --> 00:31:46.160
I do feel quite old.
00:31:46.240 --> 00:31:52.480
Um, but um the population it changes, but it's something like 63% of the population are under 30.
00:31:52.640 --> 00:31:55.279
And so there's huge opportunity there for those people.
00:31:55.359 --> 00:32:02.319
But we've got to make sure that the pipeline is coming through so that there's no need to depend on foreign talent because the talent will be there.
00:32:02.480 --> 00:32:16.880
And that's part of what I want to do is to ensure that when I eventually leave, there are young Saudis that have come through and that I can I can show that they have they've learned and that there are people to step into my shoes.
00:32:16.960 --> 00:32:24.240
And so hopefully, you know, there will be somebody in time that will step into my shoes and will have been exposed to lots of different areas of football.
00:32:24.400 --> 00:32:36.960
So I think that's hugely important to me to make sure that I mean, if I can be so bold to say that I might ever leave a legacy, but I want to know that I have left something here that those younger Saudis will be able to benefit from.
00:32:37.200 --> 00:32:43.279
Yeah, inevitably you're part of this journey, and I inevitably I think you want to think about okay, what do I leave behind?
00:32:43.440 --> 00:32:50.799
Because it's such a powerful narrative, the whole road that the kingdom's on in Vision 2030 and the force agenda.
00:32:50.880 --> 00:33:06.240
And you know, you talked about safeguarding and integrity, and I, you know, as you know, I think that is absolutely right that those areas the kingdom, not just in football, but just generally should be thinking about now, learning, perhaps looking at what went wrong in China and just sort of focusing on those areas.
00:33:06.640 --> 00:33:16.319
Interesting you talk about safeguarding them and I think the statistics of young Saudi girls playing recreational football in Saudi Arabia are absolutely extraordinary numbers.
00:33:16.720 --> 00:33:20.400
I've heard various 80,000 quoted who are playing football.
00:33:20.480 --> 00:33:24.559
I mean, it's a really amazing talent pool, but also needs protecting as well.
00:33:24.640 --> 00:33:25.599
I think we all know that.
00:33:25.759 --> 00:33:29.200
So um we absolutely wish you all all the very best with that.
00:33:29.680 --> 00:33:41.359
So, Polly, uh going back to the World Cup, obviously, you know, as of yesterday, the the bid team becomes the local organizing committee, or at least functionally, it'll probably have a different name.
00:33:41.519 --> 00:33:43.200
Uh tell me a little bit about the governance.
00:33:43.440 --> 00:33:44.799
What do you see happening next?
00:33:45.039 --> 00:33:47.200
Is that out yet, or or what's the news on that?
00:33:47.759 --> 00:34:10.800
Well, actually, it sort of hot off the press last night it was announced that the Crown Prince has announced a higher commission for hosting the 2034 World Cup, which is is a really significant uh step because he himself will be chairing the board of the directors, and amongst the board of directors will be various different ministers, which will include the Minister of Sport, the Minister of Culture, the Minister of Tourism, and various other key departments.
00:34:11.039 --> 00:34:18.800
And importantly, on the board will also be SAF President Yes, Al Massale, which is obviously hugely exciting for us.
00:34:18.880 --> 00:34:43.280
And so, really, this will bring unity across the kingdom because hosting the World Cup is obviously about football, but it's also they want to make sure that a legacy is left, and so that it will be the whole of the kingdom that is contributing to the delivery of the World Cup, but they also want to make sure that it provides unity across the kingdom, and I think it's sort of a strategic leap, really, that it feeds into Vision of 2030, and so it helps to bring everything together.
00:34:43.440 --> 00:34:54.559
So it's a really significant step, and I think it's it's unprecedented, it's such a key entity that all of these important ministers will be uh involved in it, including obviously the Federation.
00:34:55.199 --> 00:34:56.559
Yeah, well done, thank you for that.
00:34:56.639 --> 00:34:57.519
That I didn't know that.
00:34:57.599 --> 00:35:17.840
So that's as you say, hot off the press, and really interesting to see the cross-governmental approach because uh obviously, you know, that it's actually hosting the World Cup in a sporting sense, but there's all the infrastructure to be built, not just the stadiums, but the training facilities for the teams and a lot of uh you know, faster transit, new airports in some places and and so on.
00:35:17.920 --> 00:35:26.239
So it's a it's a obviously a massive undertaking and interesting that you know the Crown Prince is going to be involved personally in sort of overseeing that.
00:35:26.400 --> 00:35:35.599
Not surprising, of course, given given his commitment to all this, but uh that certainly indicates the setting off on the right track and having the right top-level buy-in and so on.
00:35:35.920 --> 00:35:41.760
Yeah, and as you say, there's so there's so much infrastructure, including transport, and obviously the Minister for Transport will be on there as well.
00:35:41.920 --> 00:35:54.400
And it's the first time that the 48 Team World Cup will be hosted in one nation as well, and so it's a really important step that shows really the commitment that Saudi Arabia is putting on delivering the best possible World Cup in 2034.
00:35:55.199 --> 00:36:09.280
Yeah, well, it will be, as you say, one nation hosting for the first time because obviously the next editions in North America, across Mexico, USA, Canada, and then we've got the Portugal, Spain, Morocco, but also with the exhibition matches in Latin America.
00:36:09.440 --> 00:36:14.480
So I suppose it will be the biggest event ever in one nation, yeah.
00:36:14.639 --> 00:36:15.119
Amazing.
00:36:15.360 --> 00:36:30.800
Well, this and Polly, I thank you very much for coming on and talking about you know how you are experiencing your early days of the Saudi Arabian Football Federation and the journey that took you there, back to that big sliding doors moment with the RFE all those years ago.
00:36:30.960 --> 00:36:41.440
I think everybody excited to see how football progresses in Saudi Arabia, and I know you're going to play an absolutely critical role in that as part of the leadership team in the federation.
00:36:41.599 --> 00:36:43.199
So we all wish you well.
00:36:43.360 --> 00:36:47.280
Thank you very much for coming on the Ankura Business Behind Sport podcast.
00:36:47.599 --> 00:36:48.480
Thank you for having me.
00:36:48.559 --> 00:36:50.639
It's been a pleasure as always.
00:36:51.360 --> 00:36:57.840
If you enjoyed what you heard on this episode of The Business Behind Sport, make sure to subscribe wherever you listen.
00:36:58.079 --> 00:37:07.119
Our Global Sports Advisory Team supports the sector, its investors and partners by helping them better manage change, challenges and opportunities.
00:37:07.440 --> 00:37:17.440
You can follow all our latest insights and find out how we're supporting clients from a wide range of industries to mitigate risk and protect business values by visiting AnCoa.com.
00:00:00.320 --> 00:00:07.120
Hello and welcome to the Business Behind Sport podcast series from Ankura, the Global Expert Services and Advisory Firm.
00:00:07.280 --> 00:00:10.720
I'm Rich Patel, a director on our London team at Ankura.
00:00:11.119 --> 00:00:19.679
In this series, we talk to sport industry leaders to explore their perspectives and insights on a variety of current topics and themes relating to the business side of sport.
00:00:20.079 --> 00:00:24.480
Hello and welcome to the Ankura Business Behind Sport podcast.
00:00:24.559 --> 00:00:26.239
My name is Johnny Gray.
00:00:26.480 --> 00:00:38.880
We're recording this podcast on the day after the announcement that the FIFA Congress has awarded the rights to host the FIFA World Cup 2034 to the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia.
00:00:39.039 --> 00:00:47.679
And I'm absolutely delighted to have on the podcast today General Counsel of the Saudi Arabian Football Federation, Polly Hanford.
00:00:48.000 --> 00:00:48.640
Welcome, Polly.
00:00:49.039 --> 00:00:49.679
Hello, Johnny.
00:00:49.759 --> 00:00:50.799
Thank you so much for having me.
00:00:50.880 --> 00:00:53.119
And yes, indeed, a very exciting day.
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It was yesterday, and indeed uh exciting times ahead.
00:00:56.560 --> 00:00:58.799
Yes, well, listen, tell me a bit about yesterday.
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I think you were actually there when the presentations were made and so on.
00:01:03.359 --> 00:01:05.280
How did it all play out?
00:01:05.599 --> 00:01:07.680
Yeah, I was I was very privileged to be there.
00:01:07.840 --> 00:01:23.280
I was I was invited to go to the exhibition centre where the the bid exhibition is and the sports minister was, and our president and vice president and general secretary, and and the presentation that was made to the Congress by the two young people who were amazing, two young children.
00:01:23.439 --> 00:01:27.920
And it was an iconic moment, I have to say, and it felt so special to be there.
00:01:28.000 --> 00:01:31.840
So they streamed the part of Congress that was open to the public.
00:01:32.079 --> 00:01:38.799
And whilst, yes, I accept that you know we were the only bidder, we didn't have the World Cup until the announcement was made.
00:01:38.959 --> 00:01:43.599
And the elation that you felt in the room, and just I mean, it brought tears to my eyes, it really did.
00:01:43.680 --> 00:01:44.959
And I didn't know.
00:01:45.120 --> 00:01:53.040
I haven't really here for for you know, I'm I'm not a Saudi, but I I feel like I I belong here now, and it just felt so amazing to be there.
00:01:53.120 --> 00:01:56.400
And it's just the buzz around the kingdom is incredible.
00:01:56.480 --> 00:02:03.760
There's loads planned for this weekend, there's gonna be fireworks, and you know, whether you are from Saudi or or not living here, you you can just feel it.
00:02:04.079 --> 00:02:12.879
Yeah, well, I as you know, I was there last week, and you could you could just sense the growing excitement and anticipation for the decision yesterday.
00:02:12.960 --> 00:02:25.520
And of course, as you say, I mean, yes, as it played out, Saudi was the only bidder, but I think people may not know that you still have to submit a very thorough bid, and the bid has to pass lesson.
00:02:26.000 --> 00:02:33.520
And um I think I'm right in saying this this bid got the highest tactical score of any bid ever, so it's a very exciting time, as you say.
00:02:33.919 --> 00:02:38.319
Indeed, and the amount of work that went into the bid, it was never ever taken for granted.
00:02:38.479 --> 00:02:46.479
It was there was so much work put in both by the Federation, by the bid team, by the Ministry of Sport, by everybody, and nobody took it for granted.
00:02:46.560 --> 00:02:48.319
And people still don't take it for granted.
00:02:48.400 --> 00:03:08.400
It is such a massive achievement, but there was huge amounts of work that went into it, genuine work, and I've been so impressed by the amount of work that went into it and and just the professionalism that uh everybody has shown in producing the bid document that went in, and and obviously I think it was the marks that it got were absolutely merited and absolutely uh well earned.
00:03:08.560 --> 00:03:10.319
So I'm I'm delighted for everybody.
00:03:10.719 --> 00:03:30.639
Well, fantastic, and I think what we'll do, Polly, is we'll we'll come back to that and what it means for football in Saudi Arabia and you know, in general, and obviously, you know, your role, you've moved there relatively recently, brought in from the football association in the UK to help take football forward in Saudi Arabia.
00:03:30.719 --> 00:03:32.080
So let's come back to that.
00:03:32.319 --> 00:03:41.280
But I think our listeners, you know, I mean, you're really well known in football, so many people listening to this will know you personally, but many won't.
00:03:41.360 --> 00:03:49.599
So maybe we could go back and just you know, it'd be really interesting to chart out sort of your journey to this amazing role you have now.
00:03:49.680 --> 00:03:57.120
I mean, if you're gonna be a general counsel of a football federation, to be the Saudi Football Federation that's gonna be probably the best job going.
00:03:57.439 --> 00:03:59.919
I think you studied law at Bristol back in the day.
00:04:00.000 --> 00:04:01.360
What attracted you to law?
00:04:01.439 --> 00:04:02.479
Why why law?
00:04:02.800 --> 00:04:04.879
Well, actually at Bristol I studied English and philosophy.
00:04:05.039 --> 00:04:05.439
Oh, did you?
00:04:05.520 --> 00:04:05.680
Okay.
00:04:06.000 --> 00:04:06.240
I did.
00:04:06.319 --> 00:04:19.279
I always wanted to be a lawyer when I was I had to do work experience when I was at school when I was about 15, and I did some work experience in a law firm, and and actually that nearly put me off because I was put in a room with a law book and and wasn't given a huge amount of experience.
00:04:19.439 --> 00:04:19.920
So I didn't know.
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Um but it was always there that I always wanted to be a lawyer.
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My dad always said I was good at arguing, and so it was no surprise I did end up being a litigator.
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But the sort of the English literature had always been my love, and the philosophy side absolutely fascinated me.
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So I did uh a degree in English and philosophy, I then did a conversion course in law, and then obviously my LPC, and then went into my training contract.
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I took a year off between going to university and law school just to decide really did I want to do that.
00:04:49.600 --> 00:04:52.720
So I went and did a ski season, and that massively improved my French as well.
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Then I'd done French A level.
00:04:54.319 --> 00:04:56.639
So, you know, I I I look back on that was really funny.
00:04:57.040 --> 00:04:57.680
Where did you ski?
00:04:58.319 --> 00:05:04.800
Which was it was in Switzerland, in the French side of Switzerland, um, in the Four Valleys, and and you know, had an amazing time there.
00:05:04.879 --> 00:05:06.959
And I was asked to stay on for and I stayed for the summer.
00:05:07.040 --> 00:05:12.879
I did a summer season and I was asked to do another year and thought I'd love to do it, but actually I need to get real and knuckle down.
00:05:12.959 --> 00:05:15.519
So I I went to law school and actually loved law school.
00:05:15.600 --> 00:05:16.879
I was really ready for it then.
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I was really ready to to do it from a practical point of view and and absolutely loved it.
00:05:21.519 --> 00:05:25.680
I I I went to the College of Law as was in in Store Street in London.
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I felt like I I'd found my calling, but looking back, I'm I'm also quite pleased that I did do the English and philosophy because I got that, I'd sort of tick that box that it was something that was also one of my passions.
00:05:36.319 --> 00:05:40.240
So I felt very lucky to have been able to do that and then convert to law.
00:05:40.480 --> 00:05:42.560
That seems like a very long, long time ago now.
00:05:42.720 --> 00:05:46.800
But uh and you you joined Forster's in 2000, I think, after that.
00:05:47.120 --> 00:05:49.759
Yeah, I actually trained at a law firm called Wedlake St.
00:05:50.079 --> 00:05:57.680
It historically it'd been part of the Wedlake was part of Wedlake Bell, but I left when I was two years qualified and I went to Forster's in 2000.
00:05:57.839 --> 00:05:59.839
So I was sort of two years qualified.
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I always think that lawyers are probably at the most marketable at two years, they've got their experience.
00:06:04.319 --> 00:06:06.879
I had amazing experience in my training contract.
00:06:07.040 --> 00:06:17.920
I was exposed to a lot of things, and because it was a smaller firm, I was given a lot of responsibility at a very young age, but I decided that I wanted to go down the sort of the more the commercial litigation route.
00:06:18.079 --> 00:06:21.120
And Forsters had had established two years previously.
00:06:21.439 --> 00:06:24.480
So it was a it was a newish firm but with huge ambition.
00:06:24.959 --> 00:06:28.319
And I stayed there for 10 years and really enjoyed my time there.
00:06:28.480 --> 00:06:32.959
I had some amazing clients and amazing experience as a commercial litigator.
00:06:33.120 --> 00:06:36.800
But then yeah, made the leap to go in-house in 2010.
00:06:37.199 --> 00:06:43.839
Yes, I always think the naughs, not many law firms, had sports practices at that point.
00:06:44.079 --> 00:06:45.680
Did you do any work in sport?
00:06:45.839 --> 00:06:51.759
I mean, obviously you left to go to the rugby football union, which is the governing body of rugby union in England.
00:06:52.000 --> 00:06:54.720
But had there been any sports work at Forster's?
00:06:55.199 --> 00:06:55.920
No, not really.
00:06:56.000 --> 00:07:01.040
I mean, I'd done, I think, a an odd thing in boxing, but I never really intended to go into sports law.
00:07:01.199 --> 00:07:05.600
My ambition and and my my pathway was always going to be a partner in a law firm.
00:07:05.759 --> 00:07:08.000
I was at Forsters and I I really enjoyed it there.
00:07:08.160 --> 00:07:13.199
I was actually going through the partnership process when I applied to the for the job at the RFU.
00:07:13.360 --> 00:07:14.480
It was really as a backup.
00:07:14.720 --> 00:07:15.279
You can say that now.
00:07:16.319 --> 00:07:18.079
I can say that now, years on.
00:07:18.160 --> 00:07:25.279
But um, at the time I just thought I if I didn't get partnership at that point, I was I wasn't sure whether I was going to stay.
00:07:25.439 --> 00:07:29.600
And then, you know, like buses, I was offered a partnership out outside of London.
00:07:29.680 --> 00:07:31.120
I went for the interview at the RFU.
00:07:31.199 --> 00:07:38.240
I didn't really think I was going to get it, but then by the time they invited me back for my second interview, I'd been given partnership at Forster's.
00:07:38.399 --> 00:07:42.480
So it was suddenly, it was like it I call it my sliding doors moment.
00:07:42.720 --> 00:07:46.399
So I had what I'd always sort of dreamed of being as a partner.
00:07:46.720 --> 00:07:50.959
And it was a really interesting time in my in my career, and and I found it really difficult.
00:07:51.040 --> 00:07:59.040
And I went to speak to this amazing lawyer who was one of the founding partners at Forster's, who's a bit of a mentor, and said, Look, I've got this offer, I don't know what to do.
00:07:59.199 --> 00:08:02.480
And she said to me, It's a really, really big move going in-house.
00:08:02.560 --> 00:08:03.360
You need to think about this.
00:08:03.439 --> 00:08:09.360
And I was about to go on holiday, but I knew that once I became a partner, my notice period was going to be six months.
00:08:09.439 --> 00:08:16.240
And because the RFU knew that I'd I had an offer partnership, they they wanted me to come within three months.
00:08:16.399 --> 00:08:18.959
So I was in this really difficult position, and she was amazing.
00:08:19.040 --> 00:08:21.680
She said, I'm going to take your notice, but you go away and think about it.
00:08:21.759 --> 00:08:26.160
So the three months were bite, but you know, we'll let you go if you really decide you want to go.
00:08:26.319 --> 00:08:28.560
So I went away, thought about it.
00:08:28.800 --> 00:08:30.079
I will I became a partner.
00:08:30.160 --> 00:08:38.000
Suddenly I was getting messages from all over the place from people I'd worked for and with from many years before about this announcement of me becoming a partner.
00:08:38.080 --> 00:08:40.799
And uh, so I was a partner for three months and I left.
00:08:40.879 --> 00:08:47.200
And I think I've sort of slightly gone down in history on that because people left because they didn't get partnership, not because when they did.
00:08:49.519 --> 00:08:53.360
But you know, and for a while, when I f back and I thought, oh, well, have I done the right thing?
00:08:53.440 --> 00:09:05.200
But within a few months of being in-house, I thought, no, it's you know, financially obviously it makes a difference in in terms of had I stayed and progressed as a partner and a sort of more senior partner, but it was never about that for me.
00:09:05.279 --> 00:09:08.320
It was about wanting to enjoy what I was doing.
00:09:08.480 --> 00:09:10.720
And so I haven't ever looked back.
00:09:10.879 --> 00:09:25.279
And it I I look back with fondness because it was a very difficult time making that decision, and I lent on a lot of people, and I wanted someone else to make the decision for me if I'm if I'm honest, because it was such a difficult one at the time, but yeah, it was my sliding doors moment, but yeah, so I left.
00:09:25.519 --> 00:09:32.320
And were you were you a rugby fan, or was it rugby in particular, or was it just the job came up and you thought that sounds interesting?
00:09:32.639 --> 00:09:33.519
It was both really.
00:09:33.679 --> 00:09:39.440
I mean, I I grew up with football, and then I when I was at at Bristol, I got into rugby then.
00:09:39.519 --> 00:09:45.039
It was the Five Nations then, and I used to watch the the Five Nations, and so I did love watching rugby.
00:09:45.120 --> 00:09:48.559
I'd never obviously played it, but I'd probably grown up more with football.
00:09:48.879 --> 00:09:53.840
I was a football fan as a young child, and and my dad and my brother also watched football.
00:09:54.000 --> 00:09:55.759
So I sort of loved all sports really.
00:09:55.840 --> 00:10:04.799
I loved tennis, I loved I loved all sports, but it was a chance to move into something that was a bit more specialised, but something that was that was really interesting that I was interested in.
00:10:04.960 --> 00:10:12.399
So yeah, I mean I was slightly surprised to have got the job, but I think it was more around they were looking for a commercial litigator and also someone that would fit into the team.
00:10:12.480 --> 00:10:18.240
And I and I think you've spoken to Karina Vleck before, but I I got on very well with her and we and we worked really well together.
00:10:18.559 --> 00:10:19.200
Of course, yeah.
00:10:19.279 --> 00:10:23.840
You would have she's been on the show before, and you would have been there about the same time actually.
00:10:24.000 --> 00:10:24.559
Now you mentioned that.
00:10:24.720 --> 00:10:26.480
Yeah, so she she recruited me, yeah.
00:10:26.879 --> 00:10:28.320
Oh okay, yeah, yeah.
00:10:28.559 --> 00:10:32.000
And you know, and we went through some difficult times whilst I was there.
00:10:32.080 --> 00:10:36.000
I I left at the end of 2013, so I was there for sort of three and a half years.
00:10:36.159 --> 00:10:37.600
But yeah, I mean I never looked back.
00:10:37.679 --> 00:10:40.639
I I loved my time there, and it was a massive learning curve as well.
00:10:40.879 --> 00:10:47.519
And learning to be an in-house lawyer, one of the first things I was surprised about, everyone said, Oh, you don't need to do any any time recording now.
00:10:47.679 --> 00:10:50.320
But I missed time recording, which sounds bizarre.
00:10:50.879 --> 00:11:00.960
But I um, I mean, I certainly don't now, but at the time, I sort of I was so used to being able to, when I was really busy, I could see how many, how many hours I'd recorded.
00:11:01.120 --> 00:11:09.919
I was really, really busy when I went into the RFU and I was heavily involved in the pay TV dispute because we were an intervener in in that in the Competition Appeals Tribunal.
00:11:10.080 --> 00:11:15.600
And I was working really long hours, and sometimes I'd be sort of one of the last to leave, if not the last to leave the office.
00:11:15.759 --> 00:11:19.279
And yet nobody knew that how many hours I'd done because no recording.
00:11:20.000 --> 00:11:23.519
I soon got over that, but yeah, that was one of the initial shocks of being in-house.
00:11:23.600 --> 00:11:24.000
But yeah.
00:11:24.320 --> 00:11:26.879
So we we had James Stebby on the podcast recently.
00:11:27.039 --> 00:11:29.679
We talked about law and rugby at length on that one.
00:11:29.759 --> 00:11:36.159
So we we won't dwell on it, although I would be interested to know what the challenges were you referred to, but I think we should press on, Polly.
00:11:36.240 --> 00:11:42.000
You did as you say, you did, I think, nearly four years at the RFU and then back to private practice again.
00:11:42.480 --> 00:11:43.759
Tell us a little bit about that.
00:11:44.159 --> 00:11:46.799
So that was a brief interlude back into private practice.
00:11:46.879 --> 00:11:55.519
So when I was at the RFU, I think because I'd only just been made a partner at Forster's, I think there was there was still a a bit of me thinking, should I have done it?
00:11:55.679 --> 00:11:59.360
And in-house it was a small team at the RFU, and there is a glass ceiling.
00:11:59.440 --> 00:12:01.600
So I and I thought, right, what next?
00:12:01.759 --> 00:12:08.159
And I was approached by a sports boutique practice to set up a dispute resolution arm in their practice.
00:12:08.320 --> 00:12:16.399
And again, it was a really difficult decision because I loved my time at the RFU, but this opportunity seemed like it was a good one, and I think it probably would have been.
00:12:16.559 --> 00:12:22.320
But I went there and I think I soon realised I probably was more suited to being an in-house lawyer.
00:12:22.480 --> 00:12:27.759
So it's one of those moments I've always said to people, don't look back and regret the opportunities you didn't take.
00:12:27.919 --> 00:12:33.200
And I don't regret doing that, but I think it made me realise actually I'm much more suited to being an in-house lawyer.
00:12:33.279 --> 00:12:39.840
So I stayed there for six months and an opportunity came up at the FA, and it was a bit of a sideways move.
00:12:39.919 --> 00:12:49.519
So, whereas usually in your in your career, you should be sort of progressing, and you know, people tell you you should be climbing that ladder, and it was a bit of a sideways move, but you know, looking back, it was a great move for me.
00:12:49.600 --> 00:12:56.639
But I decided football was so big, and football I knew as well, and I'd had the grounding from the sports law from the RFU.
00:12:56.720 --> 00:13:01.519
So I went for the interview and got the job and moved there in 2014.
00:13:01.840 --> 00:13:10.960
So initially head of legal, and then I think you took on governance a few years later as well, including things like um integrity and those sorts of issues.
00:13:11.279 --> 00:13:11.679
Exactly.
00:13:11.840 --> 00:13:21.759
Yeah, so I mean I don't know whether restructures follow me, but when I joined the RFU straight away there was a restructure, and then when I joined the FA, there was a restructure and they were looking to change things.
00:13:21.840 --> 00:13:27.120
And as a lawyer, you think I've got no employment rights here and whatever, but thankfully it all worked out.
00:13:27.279 --> 00:13:30.399
So within a couple of years, I I was promoted twice.
00:13:30.480 --> 00:13:35.440
And so by 2016, I became the director of legal and governance.
00:13:35.679 --> 00:13:45.840
But prior to the restructure, there'd only been a legal director and a governance director, and then it was sort of the legal team was merged into the governance side, and then it was sort of restructured again.
00:13:46.000 --> 00:13:51.200
So I then became the first legal and governance director of the FA in 2016.
00:13:51.279 --> 00:13:55.200
So it was sort of a it was a a merging of various different departments.
00:13:55.519 --> 00:14:06.000
Yeah, I mean I think in-house lawyer, I think most people probably got a good sense of what that is, and it's ahead of that, you know, you're everything presumably is crossing your desk, but it's ahead of governance.
00:14:06.320 --> 00:14:11.200
Just talk a bit more about what that was, because that was definitely a new thing for the FA, wasn't it?
00:14:11.360 --> 00:14:12.639
Combining those two things.
00:14:13.120 --> 00:14:19.919
Yeah, I mean the FA did have a director of governance before, and then through the restructure it became, I think, football regulation and administration or something.
00:14:20.000 --> 00:14:23.200
So they've merged various different things, and and that didn't really work.
00:14:23.440 --> 00:14:24.879
And so they split it again.
00:14:24.960 --> 00:14:34.000
So I took on the the governance side of the game, which was more around discipline, and and they split the footballer operations to the footballer operations director.
00:14:34.080 --> 00:14:38.639
So I worked very closely with with him and joined at the same time as me becoming director.
00:14:38.799 --> 00:14:53.759
So the governance side, in effect, was integrity, which included anti-doping, safeguard, so the case management side of safeguarding, and investigations, which was basically any breach of any rules or regulations within the game.
00:14:54.000 --> 00:14:59.600
And we also had a prosecutions team, a team of barristers that prosecuted the cases.
00:14:59.759 --> 00:15:02.240
And then the legal side was slightly separate.
00:15:02.320 --> 00:15:13.519
So it was all merged, it all sort of worked together, but the governance side was very much game governance, and then there was obviously the corporate governance side with the company secretary, which also reported in to me.
00:15:13.600 --> 00:15:17.919
So it was a very wide remit, and I had a team by the time I left of about 65 people.
00:15:18.240 --> 00:15:28.399
And Polly, tell me, you know, as a lawyer, now with its quite broader set of remits, did you embrace I mean you obviously did it, but did you embrace that?
00:15:28.480 --> 00:15:34.960
Was that a new and interesting challenge to sort of you know the integrity side of the game and the discipline, the codes and all of that?
00:15:35.600 --> 00:15:38.639
How did you how did you sort of spend your time, if you like?
00:15:39.039 --> 00:15:42.159
Well, I think it's all based on regulations and regulation.
00:15:42.240 --> 00:15:50.000
I mean, I'd I'd been exposed to it as well at the RFU, so the safeguarding team reported in to me at the RFU as well, and and obviously I dealt with discipline there as well.
00:15:50.159 --> 00:15:57.039
As a commercial litigator, your skill sets do tend to lend itself to the sort of the governance side, the regulatory side of things.
00:15:57.120 --> 00:16:02.320
And so rather than looking at a law, you're looking at the regulations and it's all based on contract.
00:16:02.559 --> 00:16:05.039
So it was a natural progression for me.
00:16:05.200 --> 00:16:10.159
Any breach of the regulations is like a a breach of a law in some ways.
00:16:10.399 --> 00:16:12.000
But it's sport specific.
00:16:12.080 --> 00:16:17.360
So you need to make sure that that you are applying the specificities of the sport to the regulations.
00:16:17.600 --> 00:16:24.639
And that I suppose is where sports law becomes slightly different because you always have a discretion as to how you exercise your powers under the regulations.
00:16:25.039 --> 00:16:32.480
And what I did with with the team that I had at the time was we tried to clarify when we would use that discretion and what basis we would use to prosecute.
00:16:32.559 --> 00:16:37.840
Because football is so huge, you could say you take a take an example of misconduct.
00:16:38.000 --> 00:16:42.240
Lots of people will say lots of things are misconduct or bringing the game into disrepute.
00:16:42.559 --> 00:16:50.720
What brings the game into disrepute can become quite subjective, and you need to make sure that it's that you've got the same standards across the board.
00:16:50.799 --> 00:16:58.000
So what my team and I tried to do was to make it as clear as possible and as transparent as possible as to when we would take action and when we wouldn't.
00:16:58.240 --> 00:17:05.440
We issued a policy to show when we would take action, say for example, in discrimination, and we said that that was across the board.
00:17:05.519 --> 00:17:08.960
We weren't going to tolerate any discrimination, whether it was online or or not.
00:17:09.200 --> 00:17:15.759
But in other forms of misconduct, if it wasn't football related, then there was a limit to how far we could go.
00:17:15.839 --> 00:17:24.720
So how far is it the football regulator's responsibility to go and regulate somebody that might be doing something that someone doesn't approve of, but it's outside of the sport?
00:17:24.960 --> 00:17:28.000
Sort of in a nightclub type, you know, those type of exactly, exactly.
00:17:28.079 --> 00:17:33.599
So if someone had a fight in a nightclub and there was no relation to football, you don't condone it.
00:17:33.680 --> 00:17:34.880
You don't want that sort of behaviour.
00:17:34.960 --> 00:17:38.319
And the club themselves, in their employment relationship, might want to take action.
00:17:38.400 --> 00:17:42.319
But from a sports governing body perspective, you have to have your lines.
00:17:42.480 --> 00:17:45.759
And sometimes they were challenged, and sometimes people wouldn't like it.
00:17:45.920 --> 00:17:56.319
But I think the main thing was to be clear so that we could say that these are the policies, and particularly when it comes to the media, you know, there's a lot of interest from the media in in the sport and on the disciplinary side.
00:17:56.480 --> 00:17:58.319
And so we had to be really clear.
00:17:58.480 --> 00:18:01.200
No, that doesn't sit with us because of X, Y, or Z.
00:18:01.279 --> 00:18:03.279
Or yes, it does because of X, Y, or Z.
00:18:03.599 --> 00:18:09.200
Not always easy, but uh in a way that's what kept it so interesting because there was always a challenge.
00:18:09.359 --> 00:18:12.319
There would always be something that you haven't thought of.
00:18:12.559 --> 00:18:17.839
So I think I did this for you when um betting on eating a pie is is that in breach of it?
00:18:18.160 --> 00:18:20.000
And you remember that.
00:18:20.240 --> 00:18:24.640
I started for a long time at law school for this, at University of Law England, really.
00:18:24.799 --> 00:18:29.359
But um, but you know, it it was like Was that Sutton United in the FA Cup game or something?
00:18:29.920 --> 00:18:30.880
FA Cup game, exactly.
00:18:31.279 --> 00:18:31.839
I do remember that.
00:18:31.920 --> 00:18:37.440
Um so you know, there was always something, and you know, we can sort of jest about some of it was sort of hugely serious.
00:18:37.599 --> 00:18:56.559
And when I took on my role, the first thing that I dealt with as the director of legal and governance was the non-recent child abuse that came out, and it was literally as my I took on my new role in 2016, which was you know, obviously has had devastating effects on lots of people, but and we didn't know what we were dealing with, so I was asked to set up a review into that.
00:18:56.640 --> 00:19:05.279
And we had the Clive Sheldon case review, which ended up not being published until COVID, so it was in 2020, but it was there was huge amounts of work in that.
00:19:05.359 --> 00:19:37.440
And we had to be very careful that it had to be independent, and it was from the FA's perspective, we didn't know what was going to be uncovered, and we were looking back over sort of 30 years of sort of documents and having gone through prior to that sort of the Hillsborough Inquest as well, looking backwards, it felt like we kept looking backwards over previous documents for very, very important reasons, but it was certainly a challenge because you have to get that balance right, you have to protect the organisation, but you also have to be absolutely transparent about what's happening, and if there was something that was going to be uncovered, we would have to deal with that.
00:19:37.599 --> 00:19:43.200
But yeah, as the first major thing that I was responsible for as the director was um a difficult one.
00:19:43.519 --> 00:19:54.880
Yeah, and you can imagine you know the FA being a regulator of all football in England, and you know, complicated relationships with the other stakeholders like the Premier League and the EFL.
00:19:55.200 --> 00:20:00.960
But you would imagine every Monday morning you would come in and there would be something sort of on your desk from the weekend.
00:20:01.519 --> 00:20:02.960
It's an interesting role.
00:20:03.359 --> 00:20:15.519
Obviously, you know, with the responsibility for sort of regulatory issues and so on, you know, you would have probably been involved in the Crouch Review and the independent football regulator and all of that.
00:20:15.920 --> 00:20:17.519
How do you see that, Polly?
00:20:17.680 --> 00:20:20.000
Because I think you know, two schools of thought on this.
00:20:20.079 --> 00:20:38.000
There's one which is, you know, we need to protect the game from itself, if you like, and the other is well, hold on a minute, we're about to regulate, you know, one of England's most successful products and exports, and the FA sometimes coming in for criticism as being a bit of a weak regulator, having missed opportunities perhaps along the way.
00:20:38.240 --> 00:20:43.279
Looking back on it now with a bit of distance from it, how do you see that whole discussion?
00:20:43.599 --> 00:20:51.440
You know, I have my personal views on it, but I I think unless you've worked within football regulation, it's very easy to judge from the outside.
00:20:51.599 --> 00:20:51.759
Right.
00:20:51.920 --> 00:20:59.519
And actually, when you see what the EFL does, you when you see what the Premier League does, and you when you see what the FA does, they are very, very responsible bodies.
00:20:59.680 --> 00:21:07.680
And you know, we used to agonise over making the right decisions on on things and know that it would come under scrutiny, but we ultimately wanted to do the right thing.
00:21:07.839 --> 00:21:19.599
And I know that the Premier League and the EFL are the same, so I think regulation is really difficult, and I think to add another layer of regulation is personally is going to be difficult as well because there was already a lot of regulation.
00:21:19.759 --> 00:21:24.079
You've got FIFA, you've got UEFA, you've got the Premier League and the EFL, and then you've got the FA.
00:21:24.400 --> 00:21:28.720
And then when you add another another layer of regulation on top, I just think it's going to be difficult.
00:21:28.880 --> 00:21:37.119
Personally, I think it's not that I wouldn't want to be involved in it, but I just think it's going to be difficult to really get those lines absolutely clear as to who's doing what.
00:21:37.279 --> 00:21:40.720
And there's bound to be some crossover, whether it's the right thing or wrong thing.
00:21:40.799 --> 00:21:51.039
Like I said, I've got my personal views, but it's I'm not going to draw those out of you today, but they will, you know, it came out of the collapse of Berry and then the European Super League.
00:21:51.119 --> 00:21:59.759
And I, you know, I lived through the European Super League and we all worked really closely together on that from the body's perspective, from the Premier League, the EFL and the FA.
00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:01.440
And actually it didn't last long.
00:22:01.599 --> 00:22:03.839
It would have collapsed soon after it started.
00:22:03.920 --> 00:22:06.880
But I suppose the threat of it was what shocked everybody.
00:22:07.119 --> 00:22:15.440
But whether the regulator is the answer to that or not, but unfortunately that there will always be a club that is going to be in financial difficulty, whether there's a regulator there or not.
00:22:15.680 --> 00:22:21.119
So it will be interesting to see whether it does actually solve any problems or not, or whether it just adds more complications.
00:22:21.200 --> 00:22:23.200
But but time will Yeah, time will tell.
00:22:23.279 --> 00:22:23.759
You're right.
00:22:23.839 --> 00:22:29.599
And you know, I I as you know, Ankura gets heavily involved in financial fair play matters and things of that nature.
00:22:29.680 --> 00:22:46.799
And I I sort of think it's quite challenging if you look at a club playing at the top of the pyramid, you know, it's got to file its statutory account in the tax year, it's got to comply with the financial regulations of the Premier League and UEFA, and they're all different, and they're all different calendar periods.
00:22:46.960 --> 00:22:55.599
So it's already very complicated, and you know, adding another body in there, you know, as you say, makes it quite crowded.
00:22:55.759 --> 00:22:58.240
But let's see how that's not your problem anymore.
00:22:58.559 --> 00:23:00.799
It may be successful and it, you know, it may help.
00:23:01.119 --> 00:23:02.480
And and if it does, then great.
00:23:02.640 --> 00:23:06.160
But yeah, it is a complicated world, the world of regulatory bodies.
00:23:06.559 --> 00:23:07.359
Exactly.
00:23:07.599 --> 00:23:10.000
So, Saudi, how did that happen?
00:23:10.079 --> 00:23:13.039
What what what can you say about that process, Polly?
00:23:13.279 --> 00:23:14.799
It took everybody by surprise.
00:23:14.880 --> 00:23:21.519
I would first of all just say that I think you know this, that the football world went, oh wow, okay, that is quite news.
00:23:21.759 --> 00:23:25.119
Yeah, so I mean, I've never been in a job for more than 10 years.
00:23:25.200 --> 00:23:29.039
I did nearly leave the FA two years before, but then pulled out.
00:23:29.279 --> 00:23:31.200
And it had sort of turned my head a bit.
00:23:31.279 --> 00:23:33.440
And I because I've always sort of thought, what next?
00:23:33.599 --> 00:23:41.519
But I was in Qatar for the World Cup in 2022 in November, and I was lucky enough to be sent there as part of my role with FIFA on the disciplinary body.
00:23:41.680 --> 00:23:46.799
And I used to go and sit on my balcony going through my emails, waiting for the UK to come online.
00:23:47.200 --> 00:23:48.640
And the sun was shining down.
00:23:48.720 --> 00:23:52.000
And for anyone that knows me, I don't like cold weather, I love the sun.
00:23:52.240 --> 00:23:54.400
And bizarrely, somebody contacted me.
00:23:54.640 --> 00:23:55.839
And it was it was this time of year.
00:23:55.920 --> 00:23:57.759
I mean, it was winter in England.
00:23:58.000 --> 00:24:00.319
I mean, I can tell you it's cold back here, probably.
00:24:00.480 --> 00:24:02.640
So you can see why you'd be enjoying it.
00:24:02.880 --> 00:24:03.119
Yeah.
00:24:03.200 --> 00:24:11.680
And I was contacted by a headhunter for a different role actually in Saudi, wouldn't usually have responded, but I just responded saying, Well, just tell me a bit about it.
00:24:11.839 --> 00:24:17.200
And she told me a bit about it and told me a bit about sort of what's happening in Saudi Arabia, which I'd obviously read a bit anyway.
00:24:17.359 --> 00:24:20.079
And it got me thinking, but it wasn't the right time for me.
00:24:20.240 --> 00:24:22.079
It probably wasn't the right role either.
00:24:22.240 --> 00:24:24.640
But again, it was sort of planted a bit of a seed.
00:24:24.799 --> 00:24:31.279
And so when I was contacted about the potential of coming to work for the Football Federation, it's obviously what I know, it was what I was doing in the FA.
00:24:31.440 --> 00:24:38.160
And I met the president of SAF of Saudi Arabian Football Federation when he was over in London and had a chat with him.
00:24:38.319 --> 00:24:40.079
And I was almost sold on the spot.
00:24:40.160 --> 00:24:42.000
He is an amazing, amazing man.
00:24:42.240 --> 00:24:42.799
He is amazing.
00:24:43.440 --> 00:24:43.599
Yeah.
00:24:43.839 --> 00:24:51.920
Um, hugely impressive, really intelligent, but just a sort of very human person, given how successful he's been.
00:24:52.079 --> 00:24:55.200
And I just thought, you know, he's he's a leader I would really love to work with.
00:24:55.359 --> 00:24:58.559
So I think I'd been at the FA for nine and a half years by then.
00:24:58.720 --> 00:25:02.000
My youngest child was finishing her A levels, she was going to be off at university.
00:25:02.079 --> 00:25:03.599
So both my children were going to be at university.
00:25:03.680 --> 00:25:06.400
So I thought, I wonder whether this actually is a possibility.
00:25:06.640 --> 00:25:12.799
And then I met the vice president who's someone called Lamia, who's she's an amazing woman in Saudi football.
00:25:12.880 --> 00:25:19.680
And I met the general secretary, equally as impressive, and thought that that's the leadership that I would I would really love to be a part of.
00:25:19.920 --> 00:25:26.240
So went through the process, but thought this is a really massive move, not just moving jobs, but also moving countries.
00:25:26.400 --> 00:25:30.000
So you know, there's all those things, isn't it?
00:25:30.240 --> 00:25:31.119
Yeah, exactly.
00:25:31.279 --> 00:25:34.960
And so they said to me, come out, come and see us, come and visit.
00:25:35.039 --> 00:25:42.000
So I I flew out probably about a year ago now, and I I came out with my husband and we were shown round.
00:25:42.079 --> 00:25:47.279
And to begin with, I thought, and my husband had was just about to start a new job, so it was going to be just me.
00:25:47.519 --> 00:25:51.279
And I thought, can I do this on my own with my family back home?
00:25:51.519 --> 00:25:54.319
And the first night I just thought, I'm not, I'm I just I'm not sure about this.
00:25:54.400 --> 00:25:55.920
And the second night I thought, oh, maybe.
00:25:56.000 --> 00:25:57.759
And then the third night, I said, actually, I think I can.
00:25:57.839 --> 00:26:00.400
And we sat down and talked it through and talked how it would work.
00:26:00.559 --> 00:26:04.799
And and actually it's been again another thing that I haven't looked back on.
00:26:05.039 --> 00:26:07.279
It was a big decision, but it felt right.
00:26:07.519 --> 00:26:08.400
It felt like that.
00:26:08.480 --> 00:26:14.559
What's happening in Saudi Arabia in sport and particularly in football, it was almost a now or or never moment.
00:26:14.799 --> 00:26:20.000
And I felt that that opportunity, as you sort of said earlier, that would be an amazing position to have.
00:26:20.160 --> 00:26:22.880
If I don't take it now, it won't come up again for a long time.
00:26:23.599 --> 00:26:26.880
And I just thought this is an opportunity I can't turn down.
00:26:27.279 --> 00:26:35.119
And so it's nearly eight months on, and yeah, I mean, it's you experienced you have to come to Saudi to really know what it's like.
00:26:35.279 --> 00:26:41.279
There's a lot of people that judge it from outside, and from my perspective, it's an amazing country.
00:26:41.359 --> 00:26:46.480
I have never felt so welcome or so valued in any job, I don't think.
00:26:46.640 --> 00:26:58.720
And they're so open to change, they're so open to to learning about how things work in different parts of the country in sport, and and so my experience from Fort in England, I think, is helpful.
00:26:58.799 --> 00:27:06.720
But I'm also conscious that I I don't want to just reproduce what we had in English football because it's you want to take the best bits.
00:27:07.039 --> 00:27:07.440
Yes.
00:27:07.680 --> 00:27:08.640
Let's come back to that.
00:27:08.799 --> 00:27:10.960
Maybe just dwell on something very interesting.
00:27:11.119 --> 00:27:14.720
You said, Holly, that you know, you've got to go there and you've got to see it.
00:27:15.119 --> 00:27:18.960
I think two things that you know I took away from my time there last week.
00:27:19.200 --> 00:27:22.799
First of all, is the the clarity of vision.
00:27:23.039 --> 00:27:38.480
I mean, it's something that perhaps democracies in the West and so on find difficult to do now, but you know, that absolute unifying sense of purpose that runs all the way from the Crown Prince down to everybody you talk to, they're all very clear on what they're doing.
00:27:38.720 --> 00:27:45.599
And secondly, I think, you know, a lot of the criticism is written, you know, it's some of it's clickbait, I think, to be frank.
00:27:45.839 --> 00:27:59.200
But I also I was just astounded by the pace of liberalization, the pace of change, how comfortable I I felt we were travelling with some female colleagues, how comfortable they felt in that whole environment.
00:27:59.519 --> 00:28:02.240
Just you must have thought about those sort of issues.
00:28:02.319 --> 00:28:07.599
How how did you both the clarity thing and the pace of change when deciding to take the job?
00:28:07.839 --> 00:28:11.599
Can you talk a little bit more about your thought processes and how you found all that?
00:28:12.000 --> 00:28:12.319
Sure.
00:28:12.559 --> 00:28:25.839
When I came out to visit, I met Lamia, who's the vice president of the the Saudi Football Federation, who was talking to me about her journey and about her journey as she played football, it was sort of behind closed doors.
00:28:26.079 --> 00:28:29.039
But how changes happened for women here.
00:28:29.359 --> 00:28:33.920
And and then I spoke to a few of a couple of other women that work within the federation.
00:28:34.079 --> 00:28:40.880
And I mean they're making a joke saying actually the men are quite jealous now because women are taking over the world, but you don't feel it.
00:28:40.960 --> 00:28:42.319
I feel incredibly valued.
00:28:42.400 --> 00:28:50.799
I don't feel any different here from how I did back in the UK, being a woman working in sport, and you just you don't see it either.
00:28:51.039 --> 00:29:02.960
It was something, obviously, it's the unknown, but not having been to Saudi Arabia before, it was something that you do think about, whether you know what you need to wear and how you dress, and you know, you have to be you have to be respectful as well.
00:29:03.119 --> 00:29:04.720
I'm I'm a visitor in their country.
00:29:04.799 --> 00:29:05.680
I have to be respectful.
00:29:05.759 --> 00:29:13.599
I've never been told how to dress, or but you just respect the culture and you respect the differences just as they would with me.
00:29:13.839 --> 00:29:16.880
And it doesn't feel odd, it really doesn't.
00:29:17.119 --> 00:29:19.599
People talk about the cultural differences, and of course there are.
00:29:19.680 --> 00:29:29.440
There are religious differences, and you know, they have different religious holidays, and so for example, Christmas is coming up and I'm taking some time off for Christmas, which is absolutely fun.
00:29:29.599 --> 00:29:33.200
And you know, you you can see Christmas decorations in certain places here as well.
00:29:33.279 --> 00:29:37.200
So it's it's a very tolerant environment, it feels it.
00:29:37.359 --> 00:29:38.960
I don't feel an outsider.
00:29:39.119 --> 00:29:46.319
Yes, I'm a foreigner, I'm an expat, but I feel incredibly welcome, and I also feel incredibly safe.
00:29:46.480 --> 00:29:49.599
And I think I feel uh feel safer here than I probably would.
00:29:50.240 --> 00:29:51.359
Yeah, I think you said that last week.
00:29:51.519 --> 00:29:54.480
You're all feeling safer safer than you do in the parts of London.
00:29:54.640 --> 00:29:56.160
Yeah, well, thank you for sharing that.
00:29:56.240 --> 00:30:03.519
And I think it's important, you know, that because places are different, that actually makes the world more interesting and more more fun.
00:30:03.680 --> 00:30:06.319
I think you know, this binary, well, we're right, you're wrong.
00:30:06.400 --> 00:30:07.359
I don't like any of that.
00:30:07.519 --> 00:30:13.119
And and I think last week in Sadi, I was just I I just really impressed by everything that's going on there.
00:30:13.440 --> 00:30:16.240
Polly, you've been there now you know nine months or so.
00:30:16.640 --> 00:30:24.240
So you've had your your first in the management speak terms, you've had your first a hundred days at the end of that period.
00:30:24.559 --> 00:30:30.880
How do you see your role going forward in shaping football in Saudi Arabia?
00:30:31.039 --> 00:30:36.319
You know, if I said what are your sort of three priorities or areas that you're going to focus on?
00:30:36.400 --> 00:30:37.839
What how would you define those?
00:30:38.240 --> 00:30:45.920
I mean, I think in terms of the sort of the legal side and and the governance side, I think something like safeguarding is going to be different here.
00:30:46.079 --> 00:30:52.880
Culturally, it's going to be different, but there's a lot that I'd like to I'd like to do in terms of introducing more from the safeguarding perspective.
00:30:52.960 --> 00:30:57.039
I mean, obviously, we have policy and we're aware of it, but the other thing is education.
00:30:57.119 --> 00:31:01.599
So very, very keen on educating the younger Saudi population.
00:31:02.079 --> 00:31:07.759
And that's something that with my team at the FA, we used to do a lot of, and we used to go out to the clubs and and talk to the clubs.
00:31:07.839 --> 00:31:11.519
And so I'd love to be a part of that, and there's a lot of support for that.
00:31:11.759 --> 00:31:17.759
In terms of my own department, I'm looking to grow certain elements of it, particularly from the integrity side.
00:31:17.839 --> 00:31:19.119
I think there's a lot more that we could do.
00:31:19.200 --> 00:31:22.799
There's a lot of good work that's already been done, but I think we can build on that.
00:31:22.880 --> 00:31:27.839
So the foundations are there, safeguarding the disciplinary, the sort of anti-corruption.
00:31:27.920 --> 00:31:29.680
But I think there's a lot more that we could do.
00:31:29.839 --> 00:31:40.799
So I'd like to take my experiences from English football and bring that here and so that we could we can start to build it, but also try to ensure that there is a pipeline of people coming through.
00:31:41.039 --> 00:31:44.720
So, as I'm sure everybody's heard, the Saudi population is very young.
00:31:44.880 --> 00:31:46.160
I do feel quite old.
00:31:46.240 --> 00:31:52.480
Um, but um the population it changes, but it's something like 63% of the population are under 30.
00:31:52.640 --> 00:31:55.279
And so there's huge opportunity there for those people.
00:31:55.359 --> 00:32:02.319
But we've got to make sure that the pipeline is coming through so that there's no need to depend on foreign talent because the talent will be there.
00:32:02.480 --> 00:32:16.880
And that's part of what I want to do is to ensure that when I eventually leave, there are young Saudis that have come through and that I can I can show that they have they've learned and that there are people to step into my shoes.
00:32:16.960 --> 00:32:24.240
And so hopefully, you know, there will be somebody in time that will step into my shoes and will have been exposed to lots of different areas of football.
00:32:24.400 --> 00:32:36.960
So I think that's hugely important to me to make sure that I mean, if I can be so bold to say that I might ever leave a legacy, but I want to know that I have left something here that those younger Saudis will be able to benefit from.
00:32:37.200 --> 00:32:43.279
Yeah, inevitably you're part of this journey, and I inevitably I think you want to think about okay, what do I leave behind?
00:32:43.440 --> 00:32:50.799
Because it's such a powerful narrative, the whole road that the kingdom's on in Vision 2030 and the force agenda.
00:32:50.880 --> 00:33:06.240
And you know, you talked about safeguarding and integrity, and I, you know, as you know, I think that is absolutely right that those areas the kingdom, not just in football, but just generally should be thinking about now, learning, perhaps looking at what went wrong in China and just sort of focusing on those areas.
00:33:06.640 --> 00:33:16.319
Interesting you talk about safeguarding them and I think the statistics of young Saudi girls playing recreational football in Saudi Arabia are absolutely extraordinary numbers.
00:33:16.720 --> 00:33:20.400
I've heard various 80,000 quoted who are playing football.
00:33:20.480 --> 00:33:24.559
I mean, it's a really amazing talent pool, but also needs protecting as well.
00:33:24.640 --> 00:33:25.599
I think we all know that.
00:33:25.759 --> 00:33:29.200
So um we absolutely wish you all all the very best with that.
00:33:29.680 --> 00:33:41.359
So, Polly, uh going back to the World Cup, obviously, you know, as of yesterday, the the bid team becomes the local organizing committee, or at least functionally, it'll probably have a different name.
00:33:41.519 --> 00:33:43.200
Uh tell me a little bit about the governance.
00:33:43.440 --> 00:33:44.799
What do you see happening next?
00:33:45.039 --> 00:33:47.200
Is that out yet, or or what's the news on that?
00:33:47.759 --> 00:34:10.800
Well, actually, it sort of hot off the press last night it was announced that the Crown Prince has announced a higher commission for hosting the 2034 World Cup, which is is a really significant uh step because he himself will be chairing the board of the directors, and amongst the board of directors will be various different ministers, which will include the Minister of Sport, the Minister of Culture, the Minister of Tourism, and various other key departments.
00:34:11.039 --> 00:34:18.800
And importantly, on the board will also be SAF President Yes, Al Massale, which is obviously hugely exciting for us.
00:34:18.880 --> 00:34:43.280
And so, really, this will bring unity across the kingdom because hosting the World Cup is obviously about football, but it's also they want to make sure that a legacy is left, and so that it will be the whole of the kingdom that is contributing to the delivery of the World Cup, but they also want to make sure that it provides unity across the kingdom, and I think it's sort of a strategic leap, really, that it feeds into Vision of 2030, and so it helps to bring everything together.
00:34:43.440 --> 00:34:54.559
So it's a really significant step, and I think it's it's unprecedented, it's such a key entity that all of these important ministers will be uh involved in it, including obviously the Federation.
00:34:55.199 --> 00:34:56.559
Yeah, well done, thank you for that.
00:34:56.639 --> 00:34:57.519
That I didn't know that.
00:34:57.599 --> 00:35:17.840
So that's as you say, hot off the press, and really interesting to see the cross-governmental approach because uh obviously, you know, that it's actually hosting the World Cup in a sporting sense, but there's all the infrastructure to be built, not just the stadiums, but the training facilities for the teams and a lot of uh you know, faster transit, new airports in some places and and so on.
00:35:17.920 --> 00:35:26.239
So it's a it's a obviously a massive undertaking and interesting that you know the Crown Prince is going to be involved personally in sort of overseeing that.
00:35:26.400 --> 00:35:35.599
Not surprising, of course, given given his commitment to all this, but uh that certainly indicates the setting off on the right track and having the right top-level buy-in and so on.
00:35:35.920 --> 00:35:41.760
Yeah, and as you say, there's so there's so much infrastructure, including transport, and obviously the Minister for Transport will be on there as well.
00:35:41.920 --> 00:35:54.400
And it's the first time that the 48 Team World Cup will be hosted in one nation as well, and so it's a really important step that shows really the commitment that Saudi Arabia is putting on delivering the best possible World Cup in 2034.
00:35:55.199 --> 00:36:09.280
Yeah, well, it will be, as you say, one nation hosting for the first time because obviously the next editions in North America, across Mexico, USA, Canada, and then we've got the Portugal, Spain, Morocco, but also with the exhibition matches in Latin America.
00:36:09.440 --> 00:36:14.480
So I suppose it will be the biggest event ever in one nation, yeah.
00:36:14.639 --> 00:36:15.119
Amazing.
00:36:15.360 --> 00:36:30.800
Well, this and Polly, I thank you very much for coming on and talking about you know how you are experiencing your early days of the Saudi Arabian Football Federation and the journey that took you there, back to that big sliding doors moment with the RFE all those years ago.
00:36:30.960 --> 00:36:41.440
I think everybody excited to see how football progresses in Saudi Arabia, and I know you're going to play an absolutely critical role in that as part of the leadership team in the federation.
00:36:41.599 --> 00:36:43.199
So we all wish you well.
00:36:43.360 --> 00:36:47.280
Thank you very much for coming on the Ankura Business Behind Sport podcast.
00:36:47.599 --> 00:36:48.480
Thank you for having me.
00:36:48.559 --> 00:36:50.639
It's been a pleasure as always.
00:36:51.360 --> 00:36:57.840
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00:36:58.079 --> 00:37:07.119
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00:37:07.440 --> 00:37:17.440
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