EP 224: The Coaching Mindset Behind Great Hiring

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Hey everyone, welcome to the show.
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We got Michael Prem with us today.
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Michael is currently the head of recruiting over at Skyflow.
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Hey Michael, thanks for joining us.
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Hey James, thanks for having me, man.
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Thanks for finding me on LinkedIn.
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I appreciate it.
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Yeah, of course, man.
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Happy to be here with you.
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Where'd you grow up?
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I would say, like, when I get asked this question, I typically say I grew up in Toronto.
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Been here over 25 years.
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Came here when I was about 10 years old.
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Where was I born?
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I was born in Sri Lanka, Colombo.
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Left when I was three.
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Went to Zambia, Africa.
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My parents left Sri Lanka.
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There was some civil war happening there.
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It was for a better situation.
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They moved to Zambia.
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At that time, my uncle had moved there as well.
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So we knew somebody there.
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And then I spent most of my childhood there.
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I was up until from three to 10 years old.
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I was in Zambia.
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It was a beautiful life there.
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And then in the year 90, 1998, I remember we did like a world tour.
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We went to we did a summer trip.
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We went to India, the UK, and Canada.
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I think it was that year we came back home, and my parents were like, hey, we're moving to Canada.
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So I've been here since I was 10 years old.
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So a long time.
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Zambia, you know what?
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I don't think we've ever had anyone on the show that that grew up there.
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And unfortunately, I don't know a whole lot about Zambia.
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What was it like growing up there?
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Oh man, it was beautiful.
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Yeah.
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I think it was a very what I would call comfortable childhood.
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My dad had a business there.
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He started up again from nothing, really.
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We came there.
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We lived with my uncle for a bit, and then next thing you know, obviously it's so long ago, it's just yeah, flashes of memory at this point.
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But I just remember every weekend my parents were celebrating with their parents.
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We're having backyard barbecues and music and dancing and drinking.
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I'm sure they were having a good time.
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And it was just fun.
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I don't remember much struggle, I would say, except for the one time I had malaria.
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But I think it was a very comfortable life for the most part.
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And we went to international school, played, played rugby, swam a lot, we were able to travel a lot.
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I think visited one of the wonders of the world, Victoria Falls.
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It's incredibly beautiful.
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Of course, when you're a kid, it just seems so massive.
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I'm sure it is big, but walking that bridge from end to end and the mist just hitting you as a kid, it's like very strong.
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So yeah, it just remembers those feelings.
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And then, of course, the real African lion safari.
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Looking at the Victoria Falls right now, it's beautiful.
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Incredible, man.
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Incredible.
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Wow.
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Oh my god.
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All right.
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For anybody tuning in, you gotta look it up on Google.
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It's just gorgeous.
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Kind of floating.
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The mist just hits you, and it's such a good feeling.
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That's awesome.
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Yeah, I'm looking this up right now.
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Nice.
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Wow.
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A lot of beautiful rainbows, it looks like, too.
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Yeah, a lot of beautiful rainbows.
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And I'll tell you a story about the safari there.
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I remember this vividly because we camped on the site there in Kenya, the safari is in Kenya.
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So we made a bit of a drive, but we it was like the second day or so, and we were in the Toyota truck, the Ranger truck, and the tuck, the truck all of a sudden dies, the battery dies.
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And this is why we were beside a group of lions, and they were just literally 15 feet away.
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And my dad and my uncle had to change the battery of the car.
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And meanwhile, I just remember the ranger pointing his gun at the lines, just waiting.
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And while my dad and uncle changed the battery, it was all fine.
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But obviously, when you're a little kid, again, size, it's just it was all very close, it's all very big.
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And yeah, like, man, it's a little different from the safaris you go here in Toronto.
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Yeah, for sure.
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So I guess the lines were just like, were they even interested?
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They were just chilling, they're just sunbathing.
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It was fine.
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They probably had a good meal.
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Thank God.
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Wow, what a cool experience.
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And so then you moved to your family moved to Toronto when you were 10.
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What was what was it like?
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Yeah, it was if I just remember because somebody asked my parents why?
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Why did we come here?
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And they've told me different answers over the years.
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I think one thing I think I remember that during that year, like '98, a lot of our close friends that we would hang out with in Zambia all started moving.
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Some went to the UK, some went to Australia, the US, Canada.
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And I think it's because when it came to education, like post-secondary education, there just wasn't a lot of options.
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So people started leaving.
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I guess they just wanted their children to grow up in the education system more long term.
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So that's what they've always told me.
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But I remember when we came to Toronto, my first winter was fun as a kid.
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You enjoy it, but then you have to spend your recess in it at school, and you're like, okay, mom, this jacket isn't good enough.
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We need something a little bit thicker.
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And and so, yeah, it was even when we visited Toronto, we have a lot of family here.
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So in 98, when we did that trip and we came to Canada, like Toronto, and had met all my cousins for the first time on my mom's side.
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One of the things I remember so clearly was my dad, like just saying, Hey, I'll be back in like 15 minutes.
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He and then he left and he came back with, and this is for the first time I'm seeing this, McDonald's.
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And that first bite as a kid of a chicken like McNugget, I tell you, like it was a bite of heaven.
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And and so when we came back to Canada, obviously, I'm like, I gotta have some McNuggets.
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And so, yeah, it was it was confusing at first because I've been in we were in Zambia for so long, and life was so comfortable and wonderful.
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And so it we didn't really understand, but I think it's now looking back, like the opportunity I've grown up with all my cousins, all the friends I have.
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I'm glad they made the choice they made.
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But again, them coming here, they had to basically like restart their lives, right?
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I don't think the exchange rate was so friendly from Zambian, I think they called it quacha, to Canadian dollars.
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So it was literally restarting their lives, and I think they've always sacrificed a lot for me and my siblings, so yeah, it was it was an interesting journey early on.
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Yeah, and you were in terms of that school, you were you you had a lot of interest, right?
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Like you were into to math, art, you were also playing a lot of sports, I think, growing up too, right?
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Yeah, growing up, I think my favorite subject was math.
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I think my dad being like an accountant by trade, he always made sure I I got the support I needed when it came to mathematics.
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So I really enjoyed math, especially like doing homework with him.
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Like he would just teach me cool tricks and how to solve different problems.
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I remember that very clearly, but I also loved art and I got that from my mom's like she's just so creative and open, and so she always supported that side of me and actually probably comes from my mom's side because two of her sisters and my grandfather were like musicians, so that creativity definitely came from her, and so it was a good balance.
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I enjoyed both eventually.
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As I got older and got into high school, I fell in love with sports.
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I played, I picked up basketball, and then I just fell in love with the game.
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It's given me so many wonderful memories and taught me a lot.
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I had some great coaches, and so I really enjoyed the competitive nature of playing at a high level.
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And eventually I think I leaned probably more towards athletics than academics.
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But you also went to a like a kind of an interesting high school, right?
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Like you said it there wasn't like traditional teachers, they were just you can explain it better than me, but like they just gave you all your work for the year and said, Hey, here you have to do all this stuff by June, or like exactly that.
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The school is called Mary Ward.
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Is it a public school or it was a Catholic high school?
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Okay, yeah.
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There were two schools like that in all of Canada, one in BC, one in in Toronto, and it was called self-directed learning.
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It was pretty close to my house, and a lot of my friends went there, so it was non-semester, which means essentially you got all your subjects at the beginning of the year, and you had to complete all the work required and take exams and stuff by the end of the year, which is September to June.
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Of course, you're a 14-year-old kid, and all the freedom, like at that point, I think they've changed the rules a lot, they've played around with it.
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Like, we were experimenting up, let's be real.
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They, you know, at 14 years old, you're not really that disciplined.
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I speak for myself, not for every person.
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Some people did really well.
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But myself, if I didn't have to have my attendance taken, I'm gonna go play basketball.
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I'm gonna go hang out with my friends, I'm gonna just procrastinate a little bit more.
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And so I remember just from grade nine and 10, the work was fine.
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But when you get to grade 11, 12, the work got a little bit more difficult.
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But essentially, me and many others would usually wait till the end of the year and the last two months or so start pulling all nighters and completing the units.
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And the teachers knew what was going on.
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They were like, Okay, we got to get ready because all the students can be heading in stuff now.
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It's the last two months, and the whole idea was to prepare you for university so that yes, there are teachers, but you have to go approach them, you have to go be curious and ask some questions.
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So, definitely learn some things there, like how to get work done quickly, how to move the needle when you need to, but how to work at a startup, yeah, exactly.
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How to work at a startup because you can't really overthink things, you just gotta get things done, right?
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But I yeah, and so I would I don't know, I would argue that my sister went to the same school and she did wonderful, and she's a lot smarter than I am.
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But I would say it gave me some skills for university, but I wouldn't say it was really hard when at the end, when you're learning a lot in a short period of time to retain that sort of information, especially when it came to calculus and algebra and things like that.
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It was a lot trickier for sure.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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You were telling me, was it uh did you end up taking calculus in high school or was it college?
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Yeah, it starts in high school and then my first year at university, University of Toronto.
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I'm like, yeah, calculus, no problem.
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I did it in high school, I love math, and took the same approach.
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Played a lot of basketball in my first year at university.
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I played it competitively for the school, I was on the school team, so we had practices on 6 a.m., like four times a week.
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So it was a lot, but I'm like, okay, yeah, it was exam time now.
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Let me just prep for the last week or so, two weeks.
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And so I took the same approach, and lo and behold, I failed calculus my first semester at university.
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And I remember that day, I I had to tell my dad I need to retake calculus part one again.
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That same day, I had to tell my dad two things.
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I had to tell him that I failed calculus, so I was trying to embrace myself for the disappointment there, and then I also had to tell him that I got into offender better with his car and that he might get a phone call from somebody that's not too happy, and so I'm sorry, but but I give my dad a lot of credit, he had a lot of patience with me growing up.
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I was a bit of a rabble.
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Being the oldest, I always was a bit more adventurous, broke a lot of a lot of rules.
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I was just really curious, and I've always had that.
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I think that's something that I rely on a lot, just being in different environments or in my job, whatever it is.
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I always try to rely on my curiosity.
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It gets me in trouble sometimes, but that's okay.
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That's fine.
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So he didn't go too hard on you?
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Get too hard on you?
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He did not.
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He did not, I'm sure he was disappointed.
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But yeah, he was a good dad.
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He had confidence you would uh correct a course on your own.
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Yeah, I guess.
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I could, you know, maybe he gave me too much trust at that time, but eventually I was able to pass calculus at the we tank it in the summer.
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I passed it, and it was all good.
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Graduate university, even though I'm not really doing what I studied in university.
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I think which recruiter is, let's be real.
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Yeah, well, most people in general, right?
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Yeah, unless you took psychology in university, then maybe you're using some of that, I guess, I guess, in your conversations, but not really.
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I think people usually just fall into recruiting.
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So yeah, but yeah, it was an interesting time there.
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So you uh so you were playing basketball throughout university, right?
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Yeah, before the University of Toronto.
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For the University of Toronto, played all four years, graduated, got inducted into the basketball hall of fame there, and then became a coach there.
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I coached for almost seven years after from 2013 to 2020.
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Started with coaching the women's team, led them to their first championship in school history, and then coached the men's team a few years for a few years there too.
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Learned a lot, had some good mentors.
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My coach that coached me, like he was.
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I mean, I learned how to endure hard times at those practices.
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You learn a lot of things as an athlete playing competitively, that you just, you know, if you're not, if you don't are put in those life circumstances, like how else are you gonna get it?
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Sports is a great way.
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You're just you have your back against the wall a lot of times, you deal with injuries, even if you get specific, like in game situations, you're down, like you got to fight.
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Uh, and then how to prepare, like how to put in the work when no one's watching, right?
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When you are not on the court.
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So I learned a lot there.
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And I was able to, you know, it was great to be able to share some of those learnings back with young adults as well as I was coaching and COVID happened, and I stepped away from coaching for a bit.
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And then for the last two years, actually, I've been coaching a club team of 12-year-olds.
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Nice.
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My buddy, my good friend, he and mentor, he his son turned 11 and started playing like rep basketball, and he asked, Do you want to help coach?
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I'm like, I don't know.
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I'm progressive.
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I coach grown men.
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I don't know how I would coach like 12-year-olds.
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It may not transfer well, but anything like when I went from coaching women to coaching men to coaching like 12-year-olds, you learn, right?
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You learn how to how different is it, like in terms of your coaching style to kids versus the teams at university.
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Yeah, 12-year-old boys don't really listen that well today.
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But you teach them toughness, you teach them how to be gritty, how to be physical, how to overcome their insecurities in the court and how to put in the work.
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You teach them a lot of those skills, and I think the beautiful thing is when you coach adults, they're already like they've already filled into their life most of their athletic potential.
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But when you want when you coach 12-year-olds, improvement so quickly, and it's like seeing your impact immediately almost, right?
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So within half a year, they're already so much better, and it that's what really kept me there.
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Is this because I didn't have a I wasn't coaching my own kid or anything like that, right?
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So I was like really investing time into seeing these young men develop, and now they're going into high school, so hopefully they have those some of those lessons that I've helped taught them and they can take it into high school, yeah.
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But it's different, it's definitely different.
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Oh, yeah, for sure.
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Yeah, that's that's really cool.
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Do you ever see yourself going back coaching for University of Toronto again?
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No, I don't think so.
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Because coaching at that level, it was like uh it's almost like a rite of passage because after I left, I saw guys that I coached step into that role.
00:16:47.980 --> 00:16:51.580
And then once they leave, guys they coach will step into that role.
00:16:51.659 --> 00:16:59.899
So it's like a beautiful rite of passage where everybody gets an opportunity to give back to their alma mater, to the game of basketball and to the community.
00:17:00.060 --> 00:17:05.899
I think that's the beauty because I took over from my coach, and my coach was there for a long time and he gave a lot.
00:17:06.139 --> 00:17:10.700
So yeah, I'm always gonna be a coach, especially when it comes to basketball.
00:17:10.859 --> 00:17:13.419
I'm sure I'll find my way into it again.
00:17:13.740 --> 00:17:25.500
But yeah, I don't I think it's better if that transition is made consistently and you get fresh perspective every few years, and you get you give someone else an opportunity to do that.
00:17:25.740 --> 00:17:26.779
Yeah, I hear you.
00:17:27.019 --> 00:17:27.500
Yeah.
00:17:27.819 --> 00:17:41.579
What did you like in terms of like a performance standpoint as an athlete and then as a coach and pulling from your time at university, and I suppose even more recently, right?
00:17:41.740 --> 00:17:52.539
Coaching the kids, but yeah, I'm wondering like what are your thoughts on performance coaching and helping people reach their potential when it comes to something super competitive?
00:17:52.619 --> 00:17:59.979
I'm just curious how you that I'm assuming that probably translates into how you think about leading and managing in the corporate world, right?
00:18:00.059 --> 00:18:06.139
Like, how do you help people navigate challenges and reach their potential in competitive environments?
00:18:06.299 --> 00:18:07.899
Does anything stand out to you?
00:18:08.299 --> 00:18:08.779
Of course.
00:18:08.859 --> 00:18:10.619
I think once a coach, always a coach.
00:18:11.019 --> 00:18:15.739
I've always been the type of coach that's always favored hard work over natural talent.
00:18:15.979 --> 00:18:21.899
I think that translates to like how I recruit as well, especially for a startup.
00:18:22.219 --> 00:18:30.379
Because every six months, even maybe less than time, the startups, the phases, it's a different cycle, things change.
00:18:30.619 --> 00:18:39.739
So the folks that have been here a long time are the ones that are able to consistently work hard and adapt to these different phases of growth.
00:18:40.459 --> 00:18:51.019
Sometimes you get talent for that specific moment and it's wonderful and it's impactful, but shortly after things have changed and it's no longer efficient or effective.
00:18:51.259 --> 00:18:56.859
So I would say coaching usually comes in two spots for me in my work.
00:18:57.019 --> 00:18:59.899
Number one is usually during candidate conversations.
00:19:00.139 --> 00:19:03.739
I don't think there's anything more competitive than being in a job interview cycle.
00:19:03.819 --> 00:19:08.299
It's a series of games that you have to win to get an offer.
00:19:08.539 --> 00:19:15.979
But also at the same time, you're really looking at making a thoughtful career choice for yourself as well.
00:19:16.219 --> 00:19:34.139
So I've had many a conversation, so I'm sure many recruiters are in the same spot where you find yourself becoming almost like a job coach or career coach or a coach to the candidates, especially when you are quick to realize this may not be a fit.
00:19:34.379 --> 00:19:40.619
So you usually find yourself coaching them on like how they're thinking about their next role, their opportunity, like how they're interviewing.
00:19:40.859 --> 00:19:42.299
So coaching kicks in there.
00:19:42.379 --> 00:19:50.539
And then I think for my current team, I love being a coach, and thankfully they're receptive to the way I coach them too.
00:19:50.779 --> 00:19:55.739
And so I try to coach for different situations.
00:19:55.979 --> 00:20:05.659
They're obviously very talented in their own right, but I've also had great coaches in my life show me how to approach you know, coaching different types of people, right?
00:20:05.819 --> 00:20:12.379
How like you said, how you coach women is gonna be different from how you coach men, it's gonna be different from how you coach 12-year-olds, right?
00:20:12.699 --> 00:20:17.579
And so it is very situation dependent, but it does come up often.
00:20:18.779 --> 00:20:19.179
Yeah.
00:20:21.019 --> 00:20:23.659
So fast forwarding to today, right?
00:20:23.819 --> 00:20:25.099
Head of recruiting role.
00:20:25.339 --> 00:20:30.939
I am curious to get a sense for what your obsession is professionally for 2026 at Skyflow.
00:20:31.099 --> 00:20:37.579
Like, where is all your headspace and all your energy going right now as you're building the team?
00:20:39.339 --> 00:20:41.339
Yeah, that's a big question, man.
00:20:42.139 --> 00:20:51.099
Obviously, every recruiting leader is hacking half their brain space, is just consumed by how AI is disproportionately affecting recruiting.
00:20:51.179 --> 00:20:52.459
It's inevitable, right?
00:20:52.779 --> 00:20:56.539
I've seen full out end-to-end AI recruiter solutions.
00:20:56.699 --> 00:21:03.579
I've seen the tools that we rely on very often come out with agentic solutions within them.
00:21:03.819 --> 00:21:13.339
So it's really about being a almost like an architect, like a designer of a new process for recruiting, right?
00:21:13.579 --> 00:21:15.099
But things change quickly right now.
00:21:15.259 --> 00:21:18.859
So it's constant experimentation, it's constant trying new things.
00:21:18.939 --> 00:21:27.500
And that's what I really think one of the things that I think most people at startups will tell you is they have the freedom, or at least I do, to try different things.
00:21:27.659 --> 00:21:30.619
And if it doesn't work, James, I'm gonna be the first one to try something else.
00:21:30.779 --> 00:21:40.859
It's you're not really you're making a lot of these smaller bets to see what really will pan out versus making one large bet and hoping it works out.
00:21:41.019 --> 00:21:43.899
And that's one of the things there's adaptability.
00:21:44.059 --> 00:21:46.219
I think it's just how I'm wired, man.
00:21:46.379 --> 00:21:51.339
I think it it's something I don't know if I'm doing it right, but you don't kind of know what you don't know.
00:21:51.419 --> 00:22:02.539
It's when it comes to just this year specifically, it's how do we really expose ourselves to all these different tools that we're able to use right now within AI.
00:22:02.859 --> 00:22:12.699
But the ultimate goal, and it's it hasn't really changed in the four and a half years I've been at Skyflow, is to build a generational company, right?
00:22:12.779 --> 00:22:18.459
And of course, that breaks down to building amazing teams and hiring amazing people.
00:22:19.019 --> 00:22:26.299
And regardless of how much AI you have in your process or how much you don't, that's not gonna change.
00:22:26.379 --> 00:22:29.659
It's the same as putting together a championship basketball team.
00:22:29.819 --> 00:22:37.419
You're finding different pieces that are gonna work as a cohesive unit and ultimately go for that goal, right?
00:22:37.659 --> 00:22:41.339
And and that's really how I look at building teams here at Skyflow.
00:22:41.659 --> 00:22:45.899
That's what I try to coach my hiring managers on as well when they build their teams.
00:22:46.699 --> 00:22:53.099
Sure, we want to fold the find the right person for the right job with the right skill set, but what's the bigger goal here?
00:22:53.259 --> 00:22:53.500
Right.
00:22:53.819 --> 00:22:57.739
And the big goal for everybody at Skyflow is to really build a generational company.
00:22:57.899 --> 00:23:03.099
And that feeling of that championship run, that's what really keeps me juiced up, man.
00:23:03.339 --> 00:23:03.979
I love it.
00:23:04.139 --> 00:23:05.339
That's awesome, man.
00:23:05.579 --> 00:23:15.579
And I I do want to get your thoughts too on just, and this is probably just a culmination of your professional career in the head of recruiting role as well as your career as an athlete and a coach.
00:23:15.739 --> 00:23:29.500
Like, probably I mean both of these things heavily influenced the following conversation, which is I want to try to get your thoughts on what you feel like is most important to being successful in a head of TA role.
00:23:29.739 --> 00:23:36.539
And we were talking about it a little bit before we hit record on the prep portion of our call.
00:23:36.779 --> 00:23:42.139
One of the things you mentioned is it's really understanding goals and it's really understanding what stage the company's in.
00:23:42.379 --> 00:23:44.139
I think you mentioned is huge, right?
00:23:44.299 --> 00:23:49.579
Could you maybe break that down a little bit more for us and share what you mean by that?
00:23:50.699 --> 00:23:51.019
Sure.
00:23:51.179 --> 00:23:59.899
I think when I think about my experience here joining a Skyflow series, post-series A as the founding recruiter.
00:24:00.779 --> 00:24:06.459
If I came in and did what I'm doing now, I would have failed.
00:24:07.099 --> 00:24:11.099
If I do what I did then now, I'm gonna fail.
00:24:11.339 --> 00:24:33.899
When I came in, I think what was most important was just really driving execution, really delivering and helping deliver quality hires that really, and this hasn't really changed this part, but really enhancing and uplifting our candidate experience to the point where it became a differentiator for Skyflow.
00:24:35.099 --> 00:24:39.339
And now with a team, it's a little bit different.
00:24:39.500 --> 00:24:40.939
I still carry a recload.
00:24:41.019 --> 00:24:54.619
We're all player coaches here at Skyflows, but if I was obsessing over execution as much as I was obsessing over overall delivery of and partnership of recruiting to the company and our business objectives, it would be different.
00:24:54.779 --> 00:25:05.819
So I would say anybody really understand what the immediate goal is for your business, what is really going to move the needle, right?
00:25:06.139 --> 00:25:13.019
I think every maybe most startups are carry a lot of characteristics and traits from the founder.
00:25:13.259 --> 00:25:19.739
We're a little bit anti-process here at Skyflow, which I think fits my DNA really well.
00:25:20.139 --> 00:25:26.859
And so I will I think the execution mindset, the pace that I moved at early on really made sense.
00:25:27.019 --> 00:25:45.659
And we still move fast, we still execute aggressively, but now it's really about how do we up-level our teams, how do we really drive a more efficient process, especially going into market soon for additional funding in Series C, we really have to tighten up like how we deliver at scale.
00:25:45.819 --> 00:25:46.539
Things have changed.
00:25:46.699 --> 00:25:48.219
This is four and a half years later.
00:25:48.379 --> 00:25:55.739
So every TA leader needs to, and and if they're in that position as a TA leader, they've probably done great work.
00:25:55.899 --> 00:26:00.299
And someone's obviously trusting them to help build again a great company.
00:26:00.459 --> 00:26:05.179
I don't know if I can really give advice to other TA leaders, but but I would say that's what's really helped me.
00:26:05.259 --> 00:26:06.859
It's what's our immediate goal now?
00:26:06.939 --> 00:26:11.019
And like how how do we how do I get buy-in from everybody to understand that, right?
00:26:11.259 --> 00:26:12.299
Yeah, yeah.
00:26:14.859 --> 00:26:18.539
How do you like can you talk to us a little bit more about like buy-in, right?
00:26:18.619 --> 00:26:27.019
Like driving alignment with your hiring managers and like particularly in the earlier days of scale or like where you guys are, right?
00:26:27.179 --> 00:26:30.219
How do you do that in a really fast-paced environment?
00:26:31.819 --> 00:26:32.859
How do I do that?
00:26:33.099 --> 00:26:37.500
Sometimes it's just picking up the phone and getting them a call and having a conversation.
00:26:38.139 --> 00:26:40.139
Things change quickly, things move fast.
00:26:41.099 --> 00:26:56.539
We I think we're at the point where you can lead with data, you can lead with reporting, uh, but ultimately I think having a true partnership is typically my approach.
00:26:56.779 --> 00:27:01.899
And I learned this actually before I joined the corporate side, I spent nearly seven years at an agency, right?
00:27:01.979 --> 00:27:02.619
At a firm.
00:27:02.779 --> 00:27:08.539
So you have limited contact with your stakeholder and you have to build a lot of trust quickly.
00:27:08.859 --> 00:27:12.059
And so coming here, I've always leaned on that.
00:27:12.219 --> 00:27:26.459
I may not get as much FaceTime with my CRO as I'd like, but when I do, I use those opportunities to just get tell them exactly what's going on and what we need to do.
00:27:26.699 --> 00:27:29.339
I've also taken the approach of earning trust.
00:27:29.579 --> 00:27:41.179
I might be one of very few TA leaders that I don't know how to say this, but I've probably blocked my fair share of hires here at Scat Flow, right?
00:27:41.259 --> 00:27:42.139
And what does that mean?
00:27:42.299 --> 00:27:51.819
I've really voted against hires, especially at the very end because call it gut instinct or something doesn't add up, whatever it is.
00:27:52.059 --> 00:27:57.419
And through a couple of reference checks or back channels, it's usually proven correct.
00:27:57.659 --> 00:28:00.299
But we all know hiring is difficult, James.
00:28:00.539 --> 00:28:02.859
Find out a few months later, you made the wrong hire or the right hire.
00:28:03.019 --> 00:28:03.500
I don't know.
00:28:03.819 --> 00:28:16.379
But I think speaking my mind in moments where it was it's been hard to, or maybe my voice is not the biggest in the room, full of execs, and you just have to speak up and earn their trust.
00:28:16.619 --> 00:28:18.779
So yeah, you take a little bit of risk there.
00:28:19.019 --> 00:28:22.699
Sometimes it works out, sometimes they might just be like, what the heck is Michael talking about?
00:28:22.859 --> 00:28:27.979
But through those moments, I've I think I've been able to earn trust.
00:28:28.139 --> 00:28:31.500
But also say this I'm really one to give credit where credit's due.
00:28:31.739 --> 00:28:34.539
And I've had an incredible manager here.
00:28:34.699 --> 00:28:41.019
I report to the COO, and she's really given me that freedom and that opportunity.
00:28:41.419 --> 00:28:49.419
And I'm hoping all startups are like this, but I know it's not to just be myself and own recruiting, right?
00:28:49.739 --> 00:28:51.099
And own the relationships.
00:28:51.259 --> 00:28:55.179
And everybody here, including execs, are just a mess slack message away.
00:28:55.259 --> 00:29:01.979
So if you're whether it's building trust or just talking about something, there's no it's all open door policy here.
00:29:02.059 --> 00:29:11.899
So I think that sort of environment has really helped me grow my confidence as a TA leader, as a new TA leader, and as a company builder, most importantly, right?
00:29:12.059 --> 00:29:15.099
I truly feel like I have skin in the game.
00:29:15.179 --> 00:29:21.819
And I'm and this sort of feeling, especially coming from an agency world where you work for a small firm and it's a really small field.
00:29:21.979 --> 00:29:24.859
I think I finally feel some of that again.
00:29:25.099 --> 00:29:28.379
Where and hopefully everybody at Skyflow feels this way that they have skin in the game.
00:29:28.459 --> 00:29:29.979
And that's a strong feeling, I think.
00:29:30.219 --> 00:29:31.019
I love it, man.
00:29:31.099 --> 00:29:31.899
That's awesome.
00:29:32.139 --> 00:29:35.419
And I also just I want to talk to you a little bit about the future, right?
00:29:35.739 --> 00:29:38.379
And what's next for yourself.
00:29:38.459 --> 00:29:41.819
I more specifically, who are you striving to become?
00:29:41.979 --> 00:29:46.059
What's your focus in terms of your own personal growth at this point of your life?
00:29:47.659 --> 00:29:53.259
Yeah, I would say obviously it's probably two lanes here professional and personal, and I think professionally.
00:29:55.099 --> 00:30:02.059
I'm I'm in a situation where we have a lot of freedom to experiment and try things in recruiting.
00:30:02.219 --> 00:30:03.899
And I'm gonna continue to do that.
00:30:04.059 --> 00:30:20.619
There's a lot of new solutions out there that are AI driven that I've been experimenting with, whether it's AI screening, AI sourcing, or whatever it is, like where can it fit in, re-architecting our process, if it doesn't make sense, changing it.
00:30:20.859 --> 00:30:31.819
So I think professionally, I I'd love to do things the unusual way and break the mold in recruiting a little bit.
00:30:31.979 --> 00:30:35.739
Because I think it's been done the same for a very long time, right?
00:30:35.819 --> 00:30:41.819
And the more given like how we recruit now, what is really gonna differentiate us as Skyflow?
00:30:41.979 --> 00:30:49.339
Let's be, you know, we're like just people have their choices these days, especially if you're going after the top talent.
00:30:49.579 --> 00:30:56.379
Like, why not just differentiate yourself as a company, as a group of people, and as a platform, as a product, right?
00:30:56.619 --> 00:30:59.819
I'd love to just continue experimenting there and seeing what comes of that.
00:30:59.979 --> 00:31:06.139
And if we land on some unique or new or different things in the next year, like that's probably a great one.
00:31:06.939 --> 00:31:23.019
And then personally, I would say personally, it's always a journey to be more present, especially working from home, being online, I guess, whether it's on your phone or on the computer, just all the time.
00:31:23.500 --> 00:31:26.299
I'm always on this journey to be more present.
00:31:26.459 --> 00:31:39.579
I'd love to be a better partner, better dog dad, better son, better brother, better godfather, more present, better golfer, better tennis player.
00:31:40.139 --> 00:31:47.419
So just really be present and enjoy the journey that I'm on because it's beautiful.
00:31:47.819 --> 00:31:55.419
Yeah, that's I I think it's really important to be intentional about being present, particularly when you have a career that's super fast paced.
00:31:55.659 --> 00:31:55.899
Yes.
00:31:56.459 --> 00:32:03.259
So remember to slow down and disconnect and focus on what you're doing in the moment, particularly especially recruiting too, man.
00:32:03.339 --> 00:32:13.500
I think sometimes you go days or weeks, and usually success or feel good or impact is measured by the job that you fill.
00:32:13.579 --> 00:32:16.299
Like if the job is filled, you make an offer, you make a hire.
00:32:16.619 --> 00:32:17.899
Great, we had a good day.
00:32:18.139 --> 00:32:24.059
But what about the other 95% of the days where you don't make an offer or fill a job, right?
00:32:24.219 --> 00:32:25.339
How do you feel good about those?
00:32:25.419 --> 00:32:27.019
How do you stay present in those?
00:32:27.259 --> 00:32:35.179
So something I do is this is the trick I learned from one of my mentors at Salesforce is you I have a folder of just feel good moments.
00:32:35.259 --> 00:32:41.819
I screenshot people that say nice things about me, whether it's in Slack or Glassdoor or just a text.
00:32:41.979 --> 00:32:49.339
And every so often I look at it, man, and I it reminds me that my impact in recruiting is so much greater than filling jobs, right?
00:32:49.579 --> 00:32:59.019
I've helped people find amazing careers, I've coached them through difficult interviews, I've just been kind to people and they've appreciated it.
00:32:59.259 --> 00:33:07.259
So I think recruiting is so beautiful when you can just think about the over the greater impact that you've made on someone's life and what your role is.
00:33:07.339 --> 00:33:10.299
And so I try to really focus on those things these days.
00:33:10.619 --> 00:33:11.579
I love that, man.
00:33:11.659 --> 00:33:12.779
That's awesome.
00:33:13.019 --> 00:33:13.579
Yeah, man.
00:33:13.819 --> 00:33:16.539
Hey, Michael, look, I've really enjoyed having you on the show today.
00:33:16.619 --> 00:33:18.299
It's been a lot of fun.
00:33:18.539 --> 00:33:29.099
And just as we're wrapping up, I just want to say thank you very much for coming on today and sharing your experiences, a little bit about your origin story and your professional takeaways with our audience.
00:33:29.419 --> 00:33:30.539
I appreciate that, James.
00:33:30.619 --> 00:33:31.500
Thank you for having me with us.