Thinking the Unthinkable: Why Boards Must Govern for a World Without Stability

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Ralph Grayson: Welcome to The Boardroom
Path by Sainty Hird & Partners.

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I'm your host, Ralph Grayson, a
partner in the board practice.

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In this series, we'll offer practical
steps and useful perspectives for

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aspiring and newly appointed NEDs.

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Throughout its 30 year history,
Sainty Hird has recruited senior

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board members across the City,
Industry, the Public Sector and NGOs.

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We're now also evaluating those boards,
as well as coaching and mentoring

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those seeking to transition from an
executive career into the boardroom.

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So we'll be speaking to some
leading figures in the board

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advisory and NED world.

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Specifically, we'll seek their
counsel about how and where to spend

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time and energy to make an effective
transition into the boardroom.

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The goal is to equip recent and aspiring
NEDs with tips, tactics and strategies

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to be most effective and build a
successful career as a board director.

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In the process, we aim to help you
to think more about who you are,

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how you operate and how you can
make this work in the boardroom.

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Welcome to the Boardroom Path.

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Today's conversation starts with a
deeply uncomfortable idea that the

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world is becoming less predictable,
less stable, and far less controllable

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than most boards are willing to admit.

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For decades governance has been built on
a set of assumptions that risks can be

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identified, measured, and managed, that
the future will broadly resemble the

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past, and that with enough experience
and oversight, leaders remain in control.

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My guest today, Nik Gowing,
challenges all of that.

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Nik is co-author of "Thinking
the Unthinkable" and

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director of Think Unthink.

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Nik was a main news presenter for the
BBC's international 24 Hour news channel

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BBC World News between 1996 and 2014.

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He presented The Hub with Nik Gowing,
BBC World Debates, Dateline London, plus

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location coverage of major global stories.

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He spent 18 years at ITN, where he
was diplomatic editor of Channel

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Four News and since 2016, he has
been a visiting professor at King's

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College London and also at Nanyang
Technological University in Singapore,

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focusing on deepening and widening
the thinking the unthinkable research.

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He has been a member of the World
Economic Forum's Global Agenda Council

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on geoeconomics and is an advisor
on leadership challenges to the

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President of the UN General Assembly.

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So after more than 30 years reporting from
the front lines of global crises, from

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the fall of the Berlin Wall to 9/11, Nik
has spent the last decade working directly

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with boards, governments and institutions,
asking a simple but unsettling question.

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Are leaders psychologically
prepared for the scale and speed of

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disruption that is now unfolding?

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His book reveals something most boardrooms
won't say out loud, that many leaders

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are privately anxious, overwhelmed by
complexity, and constrained by systems

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that reward conformity over truth.

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Because this is no longer
a world of isolated shocks.

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It's a world of cascading,
systemic disruption.

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Where supply chains fail, cyber attacks
halt infrastructure, climate risk

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reshapes asset values, and geopolitical
tensions redraw the rules in real time.

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And yet, many boards are still
operating as if stability will return.

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So today we're going to explore what
happens when that assumption breaks.

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What does it really mean to
govern in a world where there is

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no control, only preparedness?

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Nik, welcome to The Boardroom Path.

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Nik Gowing: Thank you, Ralph.

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Ralph Grayson: So what
a fascinating biography.

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Do you want to just add some colour to
that and maybe just bring us up to date

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as to the role of the book, the purpose
you wanted to achieve in writing the

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book, and how you've now framed that
into some of your thought leadership?

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Nik Gowing: Well, thank you
for inviting me and you've

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summarised it very accurately.

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I was in many of the revolutions in
Eastern Europe, all but one of them,

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I was on the Berlin Wall the night
it came down when the GDR Politburo

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members said "People can leave tonight"
and I said, "What?" This is in 1989.

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I was in the shipyard
strikes of 1980 in Poland.

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I've been in many places.

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I broke the news the Russians
were leaving Afghanistan in 1988.

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No one else was there apart from Lyse
Doucet, interestingly, from the BBC.

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But I've been lucky enough,
fortunate enough, to be in many

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places where things were happening.

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Including in former Yugoslavia, I've
experienced unpleasantness with the KGB.

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There are many stories I could
tell, but that would take up so

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much of the discussion that actually
it would distract you from what

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we're really here to talk about.

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I also made the announcement
of Diana's death.

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I'd been hauled out of bed at 10
past one in the morning, and by

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half past two I was on air for
six hours including 9/11 as well.

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So I've been at the cutting edge
of many of the things which people

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did not believe would happen.

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Ralph Grayson: And so what I'm so
fascinated as we think about this

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conversation we're in today the heat
of Iran and Trump, and that's such a

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danger as we've already discussed that
events are moving so quickly that by

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this time we publish this podcast,
whatever we say, we'll be out of date.

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So I'm very keen we stay focused on some
of the ideas of how we have a systemic and

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systematic approach to how we think about
how boards think about good governance

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in a world that is so fast moving.

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But let's just step back for a second.

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So I've read your book, it's fantastic.

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I've almost read it twice.

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Your work suggests that leaders are
operating under a dangerous illusion,

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that they still have control.

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So let's start with the basic questions,
are boards today fundamentally misreading

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the world that they're governing in?

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Nik Gowing: Let me tell you
that everything I'm going to

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say is designed to be positive.

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Not necessarily optimistic, but positive.

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Because good leadership is
about being positive and seeing

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the reality of what is coming.

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"Thinking the Unthinkable" comes from
the Cuban Missile Crisis in 1962 when

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President Kennedy had to be told and
warned, do you realise the blockade of

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Cuba is going to lead to the Soviet's
launching nuclear tipped torpedoes?

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Mr. President, you've
got to work this out.

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You've got to think the unthinkable.

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But it's also another phrase, thinking the
unpalatable, and much of what we say is

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very clear that much of what is happening
and what is going to happen and boards

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need to be aware of, and leaders as well
in the C-suite, is the evidence is there.

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It's unpalatable.

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But you may not want to look at it.

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You may not want to think about it.

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But you've got to actually absorb it.

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You've got to factor it
into what you're doing.

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I don't want to generalise about boards.

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I've sat on several boards myself and
some of them have been good experiences,

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others have been bad experiences.

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It's a bad form to generalise.

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But I would say, and this comes
from a lot of discussions, a lot of

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discussions, not just going back to
2014 when I started this project.

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When I have to say I
left the BBC by choice.

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No one pushed me out.

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I wanted to do something different
after 40 years on the road is that

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many in leadership do not really
want to embrace the enormity of

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uncertainty, which is now enveloping us.

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This is about how, what we call zombie
orthodoxes are dictating the way

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boards, board members, board chairs,
largely see the way the world is going.

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They believe that it will somehow still
conform to the way they've come out of

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business school or grown up in a company.

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One of our main findings, one of our
two main findings is the following,

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what qualifies you and you work
for an executive search firm, one

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of the thing things that qualifies
you for a job and you fit the tick

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box of what a client wants actually
disqualifies you from understanding

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the scale of what is happening.

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The speed of what is happening.

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The nature of what is happening.

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And the way you are going to be
challenged and probably overwhelmed by it.

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The way things have been is not the
way things are going to be, and I'm

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not talking about 2050 or 2060 or 2035.

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2035 is not nine years from now.

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It's actually a few hours from now this
evening, half past eight in the evening.

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Look at the speed of
what happened in Iran?

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What happened in the Gulf?

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Just over a month ago
before recording this?

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It suddenly happened on a
Saturday almost without warning,

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but all the signs were there.

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Unpalatable signs.

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No one really wanted to see it and we
are talking at the time when President

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Trump is leaving suggestions that
there may be ground troops in Iran.

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You have to say to yourself, as
with Ukraine, four years ago,

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did really people believe that
Ukraine would be invaded by Russia?

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You've got now to think the
unthinkable and in fact, you're

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former military yourself.

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In the buildup to February 2022, just
over four years ago, there were very

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clear signals that the ZAPAD, the
exercises which were being created,

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the CIA and national technical means,
and also a lot of intelligence units,

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were thinking that preparations
are being made for an invasion.

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But no one could believe this.

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Stoltenberg, the former NATO Secretary
General writes this in his book, "we

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could see the evidence, but no one
could really believe what was happening"

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and that's what boards have got to do.

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They've got to be sensitised to this.

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Risk and resilience is uncomfortable, but
you've got to be far more broad-minded,

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far more willing to think differently
and think beyond the natural confines

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of what you've grown up with what's made
your career, and that's very difficult

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for a lot of people, particularly
those who've been to business school.

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Paul Polman, I've heard him say this
publicly, so it's not abusing confidences.

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He's chair of the Saïd Business
School in Oxford, former Chief

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Executive of Unilever, of course.

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But he said, "I want people in the
business school to think differently

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from what the literature is telling them
because the literature cannot keep up with

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the enormity, the speed, and the scale
of what is happening." And that's why my

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answer to your question is not just about
boards, it's about the senior executives

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in the C-suite who are employed and
retained and approved by a board as well.

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We are overwhelmed by regulation.

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We are overwhelmed by compliance
issues and some of this stuff is

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simply more than we've got time
and energy and scope to cope with.

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That's why it's so challenging and it's
happening very fast and it's going to

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happen even quicker, and Ralph, I have
to say to you that we are now entering

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an a time when, and there are many
other things I could address on this

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when we're going to face an implosion.

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I'm going to say that again.

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An implosion of our society and
it's going to be accentuated by AI.

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I'm not telling you
anything you don't know.

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But when Sadiq Khan, the Mayor of
London, stands up in the Mansion

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House in London on the 15th of January
this year, black tie and says, "we

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are facing tectonic change." We are
facing mass unemployment in London.

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Mass unemployment.

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That's not about Ukraine.

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That's not about the Gulf.

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That's about our society and our
ability to maintain the kind of way

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of life that we've got and that's
going to be really tough for a lot

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of people in boards about both the
existential threats to them as companies.

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But also the way those they employ
are going to be hired and retained and

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the implications for them with their
mortgages and their commitments to

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their family and so on and you may have
to sac or remove a lot of them simply

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because they will be replaced by AI.

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I sat at a conference, I can't tell you
where it was, with a very, very, very

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senior chair of a board, of several
boards, and we were talking about the

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implications of AI in front of an audience
of several hundred, and I could see the

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personal pain he was going through, and
I've known him for several years, about

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addressing the fact that many people
who work for him now will not have jobs.

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That's going to have enormous
implications for society, when society

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is actually being denuded of the
capacity to provide jobs because of AI.

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And we could go on, there
are many other issues.

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But this is not me being haughty about
it and me saying, you can do better.

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It's about encouraging.

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That's why I come back to the use of
the word positive about how you handle

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this positively and how you reflect what
is happening positively in ways which

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mean that your company will survive.

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But it'll survive in a very different way.

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You've got to make the
adjustments at real speed.

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You've got to accept it can't be
incremental, it's got to be dramatic,

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and a board chairman and board vice
chair should be hiring people who are

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prepared to enter into that kind of
commitment because otherwise they're

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going to be not just disappointed,
but overwhelmed and there'll be a

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survivability existential problem.

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Ralph Grayson: So if we just take
the baseline assumption from that,

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that stability is just gone, it's
vanished, it's not relevant anymore.

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What is a board actually governing
and does a board have to fundamentally

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rethink what governance means?

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Nik Gowing: I think it's self-explanatory.

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If you are in an environment where you've
got lack of stability, lack of confidence

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and uncertainty most people in the centre
of London, given what Sadiq Khan has said

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two months ago before recording this.

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He was saying, "the world you see around
you will not be there. Not in 10 years,

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but maybe 10 months. It is that quick." So
the board has got to really embrace that.

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Now, I don't sit on any boards
at the moment of any consequence.

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But I can tell you that I was often
shocked at how inadequately people read

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the papers, how inadequate sometimes
the papers were, and also about the

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lack of awareness of just what kind
of commitment needs to be made.

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This is more than once a quarter or
once every two months, and boards, in my

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view, have to have greater responsibility
and awareness of their responsibility.

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And for many people it's not
something they want to do.

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I mean, look what's been
happening in the banking world.

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Look what's been happening at BP.

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It's an uncomfortable relationship between
the chairs and the chief executives.

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Things don't happen as
predictably as people assume.

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It creates uncertainty and there
are many reasons to be worried

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about HSBC, other banks as well.

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BP look at the speed at which
the turnover has happened for

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different reasons, I have to say.

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Ralph Grayson: Immediately
springing to mind.

00:15:10.516 --> 00:15:13.256
One of the things you talk about is
the pinball effect, which I think is a

00:15:13.256 --> 00:15:15.171
brilliant visualisation of all of this.

00:15:15.221 --> 00:15:16.121
Nik Gowing: Let me explain that.

00:15:16.346 --> 00:15:17.426
Ralph Grayson: No predictability.

00:15:17.456 --> 00:15:18.296
No control.

00:15:18.626 --> 00:15:19.706
Escalating speed.

00:15:20.066 --> 00:15:22.586
Nik Gowing: Yes, this is what
we call The Pinball Principle.

00:15:22.586 --> 00:15:23.576
The Pinball Crisis.

00:15:23.576 --> 00:15:24.776
It's like in a fairground.

00:15:24.776 --> 00:15:29.426
Imagine you are standing at the pinball
machine like Elton John in the pinball

00:15:29.426 --> 00:15:34.218
wizard and you are playing around with
the balls moving backwards and forwards

00:15:34.548 --> 00:15:35.718
and you're trying to control it.

00:15:35.718 --> 00:15:40.218
The ball is moving ever faster in
directions you cannot control and

00:15:40.218 --> 00:15:43.728
this is the comparison that I'm
making with what is now happening.

00:15:44.104 --> 00:15:47.404
We've got a one minute video
on our website just trying to

00:15:47.404 --> 00:15:49.774
crystallise the fact the ball's
going backwards and forwards.

00:15:49.774 --> 00:15:50.464
You cannot control it.

00:15:50.464 --> 00:15:52.984
You don't know which direction
it's going, and one thing leads to

00:15:52.984 --> 00:15:54.364
another, which you weren't expecting.

00:15:54.774 --> 00:15:57.684
What is fascinating when I've
raised this with people thinking,

00:15:57.744 --> 00:15:58.884
will they really get it?

00:15:59.334 --> 00:16:03.264
They've actually said, "That's the
way I feel, but I don't really want to

00:16:03.264 --> 00:16:09.374
talk about it too loudly." A feeling
of being powerless and not as in

00:16:09.374 --> 00:16:11.804
control as is expected of a board.

00:16:13.207 --> 00:16:14.977
Ralph Grayson: One of the things
you've said, which really struck a

00:16:14.977 --> 00:16:18.427
chord with me is the core failure
is that boards are structurally

00:16:18.487 --> 00:16:20.617
unprepared for what is coming.

00:16:21.487 --> 00:16:25.387
So what you're suggesting, if I
understand it, is this isn't about

00:16:25.387 --> 00:16:28.407
capability, it's actually about mindset.

00:16:28.807 --> 00:16:34.417
So why is it that experienced boards
are failing to confront what you

00:16:34.417 --> 00:16:37.147
think and everybody sees is coming?

00:16:37.612 --> 00:16:40.999
Nik Gowing: It is about mindset and
it comes back to zombie orthodoxes.

00:16:41.372 --> 00:16:45.212
There are examples which are good
examples, which are examples which we

00:16:45.212 --> 00:16:49.337
should cherish and which should be used
as good examples for others to follow.

00:16:50.597 --> 00:16:56.757
But it is about boards and those running
companies at every level who tend to

00:16:56.877 --> 00:17:00.087
default to what they've learned, to
what they've experienced, what they've

00:17:00.087 --> 00:17:05.637
been told, how they've experienced
things, and without thinking, how

00:17:05.637 --> 00:17:08.432
can I create a new framing for this?

00:17:08.432 --> 00:17:12.257
That's why we use a phrase
called making new mind muscle.

00:17:12.597 --> 00:17:16.842
Making new mind muscle to
generate mind muscle which means

00:17:16.842 --> 00:17:18.402
you are thinking more broadly.

00:17:18.522 --> 00:17:20.262
More adventurously.

00:17:20.672 --> 00:17:24.912
More willing to be very clear in
the fact that you are prepared to

00:17:24.912 --> 00:17:28.222
break eggs rather than protect eggs.

00:17:28.672 --> 00:17:31.912
Because actually the world and
the globe that we're talking about

00:17:32.182 --> 00:17:36.076
is about eggs, which we've taken
for granted, becoming crushed,

00:17:36.376 --> 00:17:38.836
becoming cracked and disintegrating.

00:17:39.346 --> 00:17:43.576
And I'm going from conversations, some
of which last four minutes, some of

00:17:43.576 --> 00:17:48.796
which last four hours, where there's
an element of we've got to do better,

00:17:48.796 --> 00:17:50.266
but we're not quite sure how to do it.

00:17:50.266 --> 00:17:54.706
And I've sat in meetings with a lot
of people who are aspiring board

00:17:54.706 --> 00:17:58.459
members who are trying to work out
whether they want to become board

00:17:58.459 --> 00:18:02.629
members, simply because they know the
responsibility and they know now the

00:18:02.839 --> 00:18:06.374
enormity of what being on a board means.

00:18:06.494 --> 00:18:09.374
Particularly unlimited
liability, in some countries.

00:18:09.704 --> 00:18:12.724
So, you know, these are difficult
times because being a board

00:18:12.724 --> 00:18:15.154
member is not like it was.

00:18:15.604 --> 00:18:20.979
It now carries enormous responsibility,
legal responsibility, and I would say

00:18:21.029 --> 00:18:26.159
a board is by and large overwhelmed by
those legal responsibilities as opposed

00:18:26.159 --> 00:18:30.689
to being able to step outside and think
with new mind muscle, what is really

00:18:30.689 --> 00:18:36.089
going to be affecting the ability of
the company to both function and dare

00:18:36.119 --> 00:18:37.879
I say, survive in this new environment.

00:18:38.534 --> 00:18:39.734
Ralph Grayson: So
fascinated by all of this.

00:18:39.734 --> 00:18:44.383
So we talk in business schools a
lot about the skills, experience,

00:18:44.383 --> 00:18:46.363
knowledge that's required on a board.

00:18:47.323 --> 00:18:52.433
To my mind, you are now raising a much
more fundamental question, which is

00:18:52.433 --> 00:18:57.413
are boards designed almost by fault
to avoid these uncomfortable truths?

00:18:58.103 --> 00:18:59.098
Nik Gowing: I think
that's a good judgement.

00:18:59.098 --> 00:19:01.648
I haven't got to that
stage in my own judgement.

00:19:01.678 --> 00:19:08.113
But I think you have a very important
point, that boards are not designed to

00:19:08.113 --> 00:19:13.813
actually achieve what they're expected
to achieve, both by the company, by the

00:19:13.813 --> 00:19:19.993
shareholders, by the families that own
them, but also by legal responsibility.

00:19:20.623 --> 00:19:25.873
And that's where I can see a crunch
coming, a potential crunch, and I hope

00:19:25.963 --> 00:19:31.273
that in doing an interview like this
people, those board members and others

00:19:31.273 --> 00:19:36.208
who listen to it, will say to themselves,
"I realise now there are new boundaries

00:19:36.208 --> 00:19:41.728
beyond which I have to travel, rather
than the relatively safe boundaries in

00:19:41.728 --> 00:19:42.878
which I've been operating up to now."

00:19:44.184 --> 00:19:48.504
Ralph Grayson: You suggested that
leaders are privately anxious,

00:19:48.504 --> 00:19:54.024
but for whatever reason are trying
to appear publicly composed.

00:19:54.024 --> 00:19:55.499
So what do you think is driving that gap?

00:19:55.995 --> 00:19:57.877
Nik Gowing: Well, first of
all, survival in the job.

00:19:57.927 --> 00:19:58.977
I don't have to tell you that.

00:19:59.067 --> 00:20:02.387
What's the average time a chief
executive is a chief executive now?

00:20:02.427 --> 00:20:03.207
Three to four years max.

00:20:03.302 --> 00:20:04.682
Ralph Grayson: Well,
it's almost a half life.

00:20:04.742 --> 00:20:06.532
I mean, it's frightening how quickly.

00:20:06.532 --> 00:20:08.387
It's like being football
managers these days.

00:20:09.332 --> 00:20:12.152
Nik Gowing: It's even worse being
a football manager, 44 days,

00:20:12.152 --> 00:20:12.792
I think at Tottenham Hotspur.

00:20:13.892 --> 00:20:21.032
It's about seeing the enormity of
what is happening and giving it a

00:20:21.032 --> 00:20:28.142
new perspective and I think this puts
enormous responsibility on the chair and

00:20:28.142 --> 00:20:32.942
I think it's very interesting watching
the number of appointments, which have

00:20:32.942 --> 00:20:36.602
taken a long time, taken a long time.

00:20:37.052 --> 00:20:39.467
Those who don't really even
want to be chair anymore.

00:20:40.637 --> 00:20:42.767
I don't have to give you the
names of some of the companies

00:20:42.902 --> 00:20:45.032
Ralph Grayson: Well, HSBC
is a living case study.

00:20:45.137 --> 00:20:46.217
Nik Gowing: Yeah, exactly that.

00:20:46.997 --> 00:20:52.107
When Sir Noel Quinn decided to leave
and the reasons for it, and with Mark

00:20:52.107 --> 00:20:57.227
Tucker and the length of time it took
to find someone who wanted to do it.

00:20:57.797 --> 00:21:00.707
Now I don't have an answer to my
own question, which raises questions

00:21:00.707 --> 00:21:03.077
though about who wants to do this?

00:21:03.137 --> 00:21:04.307
Why do they want to do it?

00:21:04.624 --> 00:21:09.730
Is the challenge of being a chair of a
board now becoming almost overwhelming?

00:21:10.495 --> 00:21:15.345
And no one wants to get their fingers
dirty, and their reputation sullied, by

00:21:15.345 --> 00:21:18.375
being chair of a massive organisation.

00:21:18.645 --> 00:21:22.665
A massive corporate where things are
not easy and things are not predictable.

00:21:23.119 --> 00:21:24.469
You fear you cannot manage it.

00:21:24.906 --> 00:21:28.716
Ralph Grayson: So let's just think
about risk in a bit more detail in that

00:21:28.716 --> 00:21:34.596
respect then and why perhaps boards
are missing what what really matters.

00:21:35.106 --> 00:21:39.711
So a lot we read and hear
would suggest that boards feel

00:21:39.711 --> 00:21:41.301
they're managing risk well.

00:21:41.841 --> 00:21:43.686
But why do you think
they're getting blindsided?

00:21:45.216 --> 00:21:47.586
Nik Gowing: Look at the number of
chief sustainability officers who've

00:21:47.586 --> 00:21:52.146
lost their jobs recently because
sustainability is no longer necessary.

00:21:52.296 --> 00:21:54.846
But sustainability is
about risk and resilience.

00:21:55.116 --> 00:21:57.936
Maybe we should give it another
name, and there's a lot of debate

00:21:57.936 --> 00:22:01.086
about whether sustainability is
actually a negative for companies.

00:22:01.812 --> 00:22:06.162
And I'm not kidding here, I remember
talking to a chief risk officer who said,

00:22:06.552 --> 00:22:10.492
"There are plenty of things happening
out there, but I've been encouraged

00:22:10.882 --> 00:22:16.792
or essentially ordered by the chair
and others not to put them on a risk

00:22:16.792 --> 00:22:20.332
and resilience register because we
can only cope with a certain number of

00:22:20.332 --> 00:22:24.842
risks." In other words, there are risks
which are beyond the boundary fence,

00:22:25.232 --> 00:22:26.822
which they don't want to enter into.

00:22:27.122 --> 00:22:29.192
I think that's wholly irresponsible.

00:22:29.912 --> 00:22:34.062
I think that is not what a risk and
resilience officer should be about.

00:22:34.332 --> 00:22:36.912
Risk and resilience is
about survivability.

00:22:37.152 --> 00:22:38.592
It's about charting everything.

00:22:39.167 --> 00:22:42.377
Even if you don't think an Iran war
is going to affect you, you've got

00:22:42.377 --> 00:22:46.187
to work out geopolitically why that's
going to affect you economically and

00:22:46.187 --> 00:22:49.187
the geoeconomics, which is what the
World Economic Forum talks about,

00:22:49.847 --> 00:22:52.277
the new threat of geoeconomics.

00:22:52.487 --> 00:22:53.897
You've got to have that grip.

00:22:54.447 --> 00:22:59.417
One risk officer said, " I've been
told I can only put 20 risks on

00:22:59.417 --> 00:23:00.647
the risk and resilience chart.

00:23:00.977 --> 00:23:02.507
Everything else they
don't want to know about."

00:23:03.370 --> 00:23:06.010
Ralph Grayson: Well, it raises in my
mind the question of how do you stress

00:23:06.015 --> 00:23:11.170
test assumptions and the assumptions
we've had based over the last 30 years,

00:23:11.290 --> 00:23:15.997
50 years, are no longer the assumptions
we're going to have to have that mindset

00:23:15.997 --> 00:23:18.250
for for the next foreseeable future.

00:23:18.790 --> 00:23:24.538
So how do we shift from prediction
and get to preparedness for

00:23:24.628 --> 00:23:27.718
multiple different future scenarios?

00:23:28.477 --> 00:23:32.667
Nik Gowing: One of the things which is
very clear in all our work is that people

00:23:32.667 --> 00:23:34.285
are franker after they've left the job.

00:23:34.737 --> 00:23:39.521
There's a degree of self-protection, and
don't put your head on the block because

00:23:39.521 --> 00:23:44.681
otherwise it's going to be bitten off or
whacked off by an axe, a corporate axe.

00:23:45.581 --> 00:23:48.931
But I have in front of me Sir Nick
MacPherson, now Lord MacPherson of Earl's

00:23:48.961 --> 00:23:53.841
Court, who is the permanent Secretary
of the Treasury particularly during the

00:23:53.891 --> 00:24:01.529
collapse of the markets, and he said, and
I'm quoting directly here that "He and

00:24:01.529 --> 00:24:06.719
those in the Treasury around him during
that period simply were not broad-minded

00:24:06.719 --> 00:24:12.409
enough to understand the enormity of what
was going on and the implications." And

00:24:12.409 --> 00:24:17.069
he called it I quote, an "Intellectual
error." An intellectual error.

00:24:17.489 --> 00:24:20.832
In other words, the intellectual challenge
is to realise that what you don't think

00:24:20.832 --> 00:24:22.602
is going to happen is going to happen.

00:24:23.273 --> 00:24:26.573
But he went public on this in an
article in the Financial Times, and

00:24:26.573 --> 00:24:28.253
I've talked to him about it since.

00:24:28.823 --> 00:24:34.658
That you've got to have the intellectual
courage, the intellectual self-confidence

00:24:35.288 --> 00:24:39.588
to raise things which you'd never
believed you would have to raise.

00:24:40.226 --> 00:24:43.286
And that's why what's happening
in Iran, with the Iran War at

00:24:43.286 --> 00:24:45.190
the moment is really significant.

00:24:45.190 --> 00:24:48.820
There is plenty of evidence of
what was going to happen and the

00:24:48.820 --> 00:24:50.980
kind of things that Trump might do.

00:24:51.801 --> 00:24:54.435
But no one could really believe
it, again, like Ukraine.

00:24:55.125 --> 00:24:56.985
And you've got to have
that in that system.

00:24:57.225 --> 00:25:00.913
Not it's going to happen in 10 weeks
or 10 months, or 10 years, That it

00:25:00.913 --> 00:25:02.833
could happen tomorrow within 10 hours.

00:25:03.493 --> 00:25:07.183
Because that's the speed at
which the Iranian conflict

00:25:07.183 --> 00:25:08.533
happened on that Saturday.

00:25:08.743 --> 00:25:12.253
It happened amazingly quickly,
almost without warning, a combination

00:25:12.253 --> 00:25:14.593
of Israel and the United States.

00:25:15.343 --> 00:25:18.253
Combination of Trump and Netanyahu
and whatever deal they did.

00:25:19.033 --> 00:25:22.698
But this is not to gloat, this is
to say, the evidence was there that

00:25:22.698 --> 00:25:26.398
something was going to happen, but on
a Saturday morning how do you move?

00:25:26.398 --> 00:25:30.058
How quickly do you have to
move to test your supply lines?

00:25:30.208 --> 00:25:31.738
To test your functionality?

00:25:31.888 --> 00:25:35.398
To test the security and safety
of your personnel and your ships?

00:25:35.518 --> 00:25:37.318
What's going to happen
in the insurance market?

00:25:37.678 --> 00:25:41.731
And you get an enormous water
fountain of things which happen

00:25:42.506 --> 00:25:46.316
at a pace which you cannot predict
and which you have to absorb.

00:25:46.466 --> 00:25:50.791
Do you have the systems in place
at 10 o'clock on a Saturday to

00:25:50.791 --> 00:25:52.291
handle this when you need to?

00:25:52.471 --> 00:25:54.631
These are things which cannot
wait till Monday morning.

00:25:54.961 --> 00:25:56.221
Do you have a system in place?

00:25:56.371 --> 00:25:58.411
It may be inconvenient,
but you've got to have it.

00:25:58.741 --> 00:26:01.614
And I remember what happened
to Maersk when they had a cyber

00:26:01.614 --> 00:26:05.792
attack The chair described how the
cyber attack took apart Maersk.

00:26:06.122 --> 00:26:10.367
The only place where they had a
computer which could re-energize

00:26:10.367 --> 00:26:14.027
the whole software system of
Maersk, the giant in the shipping

00:26:14.027 --> 00:26:19.457
industry, was they found a laptop in
Ghana, which had everything on it.

00:26:19.877 --> 00:26:24.077
They didn't know that, and it had
to be hand carried from Ghana to

00:26:24.077 --> 00:26:27.917
Denmark to Copenhagen and the chair
was at a conference in Stanford

00:26:27.977 --> 00:26:32.375
University and was woken up in the
middle of the night to be told, your

00:26:32.375 --> 00:26:34.025
system has completely collapsed.

00:26:35.045 --> 00:26:38.885
And we've had that here in the UK
several times in the last few months

00:26:38.885 --> 00:26:44.039
with JLR losing at least 3 billion
uninsured, maybe lost 8 billion,

00:26:44.339 --> 00:26:46.754
250,000 people lost their jobs.

00:26:47.594 --> 00:26:51.974
The Co-op and not being able to provide
food up in the Scottish Islands because

00:26:51.974 --> 00:26:55.518
their system had been hacked and there's
an interesting article by the chief

00:26:55.518 --> 00:27:01.068
executive of the Co-op saying " We
scenario planned, we war gamed, but we

00:27:01.068 --> 00:27:05.478
still didn't war game enough for things
which we hadn't imagined would happen"

00:27:06.078 --> 00:27:07.998
and that is where you get caught out.

00:27:09.178 --> 00:27:10.743
Ralph Grayson: There's two levels
to this, it seems to me there's

00:27:10.783 --> 00:27:14.546
the mind muscle at the individual
level that you've touched on.

00:27:15.086 --> 00:27:19.436
But then there's the board process
of how you create that safe

00:27:19.856 --> 00:27:21.746
but honest space for challenge.

00:27:21.999 --> 00:27:27.886
If you are the chair encouraging almost
maverick behaviour and heretical thinking.

00:27:28.861 --> 00:27:32.041
Nik Gowing: You are using our words
there, and that's one of the very

00:27:32.041 --> 00:27:33.871
strong recommendations we make.

00:27:34.576 --> 00:27:38.846
Mark Carney the Canadian Prime Minister
said in Davos, which is a great word,

00:27:39.026 --> 00:27:43.676
"We are now in a ruptured system"
and so you've got to have people who

00:27:43.676 --> 00:27:49.676
are prepared to take a risk and be
sanctioned to take a risk, not see it

00:27:49.676 --> 00:27:55.336
as a job destroyer, but see it as a job
creator and a responsibility to creator.

00:27:55.636 --> 00:27:58.246
I can dismiss, I could meet
you for the first time and

00:27:58.246 --> 00:28:00.286
say, don't wanna talk to Ralph.

00:28:00.316 --> 00:28:02.046
Don't just ignore him at the water cooler.

00:28:02.046 --> 00:28:02.796
Ralph Grayson: Many do.

00:28:04.671 --> 00:28:05.631
Nik Gowing: Because he's wacky.

00:28:06.546 --> 00:28:09.846
But I would say that word
should be translated probably

00:28:09.846 --> 00:28:11.976
into wacky equals visionary.

00:28:12.576 --> 00:28:14.976
Where does a visionary sit in the system?

00:28:15.396 --> 00:28:17.436
How much licence do they have?

00:28:17.466 --> 00:28:19.026
How much will they be tolerated?

00:28:19.326 --> 00:28:24.036
It's interesting, and I say this
with a degree of concern, that even

00:28:24.046 --> 00:28:28.045
Sir Keir Starmer the British Prime
Minister has encouraged the civil

00:28:28.045 --> 00:28:30.145
servants to think differently.

00:28:30.845 --> 00:28:33.005
To act differently and to take risks.

00:28:33.335 --> 00:28:35.045
I don't think there's a
culture of doing that.

00:28:35.345 --> 00:28:39.925
But you use the word, which a
senior figure said, we need heretics

00:28:40.375 --> 00:28:43.735
to challenge us, and they need
to be valued within a company.

00:28:44.005 --> 00:28:47.635
Not seen as a problem, not seen
as a problem to be disposed of.

00:28:47.955 --> 00:28:50.565
Ralph Grayson: So it does raises
a serious question though.

00:28:50.779 --> 00:28:57.469
Does that mean that chairs need to
rip up board process, board meeting

00:28:57.469 --> 00:29:02.989
process orthodoxy, and make it a much
more informal environment in which

00:29:02.989 --> 00:29:06.439
people are allowed to be creative
in their thoughts and indeed are

00:29:06.439 --> 00:29:08.269
encouraged to express those thoughts?

00:29:08.874 --> 00:29:10.764
Nik Gowing: I would say
most certainly, yes.

00:29:11.454 --> 00:29:14.994
I'm turning my papers because I'm getting
up a quote from Andrew Liveris, who

00:29:14.994 --> 00:29:19.614
for 42 years worked in Dow Chemicals,
and he ended up as president and

00:29:19.614 --> 00:29:24.234
chief executive and he's now running a
business school in Brisbane in his name.

00:29:24.804 --> 00:29:28.854
But he says, "You've got to tear up
everything in your rule book." You've

00:29:28.854 --> 00:29:32.304
got to tear up everything in your rule
book because that rule book is rules

00:29:32.304 --> 00:29:36.084
for a past age which is no longer
relevant in the corporate world.

00:29:36.804 --> 00:29:43.014
But for a board chair to be saying that to
large companies of 10,000, 15,000, 20,000,

00:29:43.014 --> 00:29:46.149
a hundred thousand, that's being heretic.

00:29:46.209 --> 00:29:47.319
But what kind of risk?

00:29:47.589 --> 00:29:49.429
I would say it's a risk worth taking.

00:29:50.059 --> 00:29:56.605
We did some work with a large bank,
no name, and we were encouraged by the

00:29:56.605 --> 00:30:00.535
chief executive to get minds changed.

00:30:00.535 --> 00:30:06.835
It was a global bank and we spent a
long time talking to people about what

00:30:06.835 --> 00:30:11.215
they wanted to say, what they wanted to
challenge, how risky they were prepared to

00:30:11.215 --> 00:30:13.255
be, how positive they were prepared to be.

00:30:14.695 --> 00:30:18.685
And I say this rather regretfully,
that people who I thought were

00:30:18.685 --> 00:30:23.215
going to contribute significant
contributions to the discussions, to

00:30:23.215 --> 00:30:28.405
create a sense of vision as opposed
to being wacky, almost none of them

00:30:28.405 --> 00:30:29.965
said anything during the discussion.

00:30:30.700 --> 00:30:36.520
They told it to us as, think about this,
put it on the agenda, but they didn't

00:30:36.520 --> 00:30:40.390
want to talk about it among their peers
because they were worried about their

00:30:40.390 --> 00:30:43.070
own position within the organisation.

00:30:43.297 --> 00:30:45.907
Ralph Grayson: The other thing I'm
struggling to get my head around, that

00:30:45.907 --> 00:30:49.627
I think is fascinating, is this theme
you've touched on of time compression.

00:30:49.657 --> 00:30:55.747
And I remember when we met once earlier,
you talked about, 2030 is a time in the

00:30:55.747 --> 00:30:57.887
day, it's not a year in the calendar.

00:30:58.762 --> 00:31:03.682
So if those time horizons are
getting so much shorter how does that

00:31:03.682 --> 00:31:06.452
governing at speed manifest itself?

00:31:07.637 --> 00:31:10.547
Nik Gowing: I did a lot of work before
I started on "Thinking the Unthinkable"

00:31:10.577 --> 00:31:15.257
when I was still working in the BBC
called "The Tyranny of Real Time".

00:31:16.397 --> 00:31:21.657
People not really appreciating the fact
that real time is much shorter than the

00:31:21.657 --> 00:31:27.387
time they may wish for the tyranny of
real time, the tyranny of information

00:31:27.387 --> 00:31:31.257
flow and I don't have to tell you now
what's happening with fake news, with

00:31:31.317 --> 00:31:33.087
information flow with social media.

00:31:33.267 --> 00:31:33.837
Is it true?

00:31:33.837 --> 00:31:34.317
Is it false?

00:31:34.317 --> 00:31:35.997
Does it have to be verified and so on.

00:31:37.137 --> 00:31:40.997
I still think very strongly, and
people pushed back at me when I

00:31:40.997 --> 00:31:45.597
was giving presentations within
corporates and also within defence

00:31:45.597 --> 00:31:47.157
structures and security structures.

00:31:47.487 --> 00:31:51.417
They said, "We will always have control
of what's going on" and I said, "No,

00:31:51.417 --> 00:31:57.027
you won't." And similarly I'd warned
about the role of drones in warfare.

00:31:57.427 --> 00:32:00.700
The way drones are going to
challenge infantry, challenge

00:32:00.700 --> 00:32:05.550
tanks, simply because they're worth
£2000, £3000, not two, 3 million.

00:32:06.284 --> 00:32:09.674
Which we've seen in Ukraine
in a most remarkable way.

00:32:10.064 --> 00:32:11.814
It comes back to zombie orthodoxes.

00:32:12.104 --> 00:32:15.404
People, again at that kind of
level of responsibility, did not

00:32:15.404 --> 00:32:18.194
want to stretch their mind to
think about things in those terms.

00:32:18.914 --> 00:32:23.914
You've got to be heretical about
the current traditions and the

00:32:23.914 --> 00:32:27.184
traditional thinking about what
business leadership is about.

00:32:27.664 --> 00:32:32.674
Now, I would love it if in five years
time, if you invite me back, you say

00:32:32.674 --> 00:32:37.684
to me on the date that we are recording
this, you said this, and this, and

00:32:37.684 --> 00:32:39.034
look, almost none of it's happened.

00:32:39.214 --> 00:32:40.444
That would be fantastic.

00:32:41.184 --> 00:32:43.224
But I don't think that's
a judgement you can make.

00:32:43.554 --> 00:32:47.184
I think you've got to judge on the basis
that unthinkables and unpalatable are

00:32:47.184 --> 00:32:51.384
going to keep happening in ways which
most people don't even want to entertain.

00:32:51.594 --> 00:32:56.479
I don't think people, including in
boards, and their families have any idea

00:32:56.479 --> 00:33:00.909
of the adversity we're about to face,
which is about the stability of society.

00:33:01.199 --> 00:33:07.076
Not just the security of society from
Russia intervening with cables and pipes

00:33:07.126 --> 00:33:09.566
and Skripal-type poisonings and so on.

00:33:09.986 --> 00:33:15.206
This is about the ability of our society
and the political class to handle it.

00:33:16.241 --> 00:33:19.361
It's going downhill fast, and
I'm not making a point about

00:33:19.361 --> 00:33:22.931
a particular political party,
but what the public expect.

00:33:23.231 --> 00:33:25.871
They expect politicians
to be able to deliver.

00:33:26.291 --> 00:33:30.281
They expect companies to be able to
deliver according to what they expect

00:33:30.821 --> 00:33:35.271
without realising that actually much
of what they expect is no longer

00:33:35.271 --> 00:33:38.121
deliverable and this is what's
going to happen because of Iran.

00:33:38.361 --> 00:33:42.105
Going back to the pinball principle,
much of the system we take for granted

00:33:42.405 --> 00:33:45.695
is simply, after time, not going to
function in ways which the public

00:33:45.695 --> 00:33:51.155
will expect and the public will then
accuse politicians, political class,

00:33:51.155 --> 00:33:56.105
the political leaders, of not handling
this in a way which is satisfactory.

00:33:56.795 --> 00:34:01.505
I'm putting my arm up here, Ralph,
alongside the microphone, the expectation

00:34:01.505 --> 00:34:04.663
is that still people will have one
or two holidays a year, have a nicer

00:34:04.663 --> 00:34:06.253
car, have a nicer house, and so on.

00:34:07.033 --> 00:34:13.323
I think within, to pick up the 2030
analogy, within a matter of weeks and

00:34:13.323 --> 00:34:21.073
months, we're going to see the watershed
be hit and desperate conditions for many

00:34:21.073 --> 00:34:26.593
people getting food, being able to afford
energy, being able to afford anything

00:34:26.593 --> 00:34:30.313
they expect, and even being able to afford
a mortgage if they haven't got a job

00:34:30.313 --> 00:34:32.083
because they've been made redundant by AI.

00:34:32.473 --> 00:34:33.523
This is already happening.

00:34:33.613 --> 00:34:36.283
It's happening much faster than
most people want to assume,

00:34:36.703 --> 00:34:38.023
but it's got to be embraced.

00:34:38.663 --> 00:34:44.103
When a job can be done by ChatGPT
or Claude within 10 seconds, why

00:34:44.103 --> 00:34:48.880
employ someone for two weeks to
create a speech when actually Claude

00:34:48.880 --> 00:34:51.390
can do a as good a job for nothing?

00:34:51.630 --> 00:34:52.740
Why employ those people?

00:34:52.890 --> 00:34:54.720
I'm seeing it already among people I know.

00:34:55.050 --> 00:34:57.900
People who are losing their jobs and
thinking, "I can't get a job. Now

00:34:57.900 --> 00:34:59.910
what do I do?" They're panicking.

00:35:00.250 --> 00:35:03.450
So my point here is the word adversity.

00:35:04.050 --> 00:35:08.190
People have not yet understood the
level of adversity we're going to

00:35:08.190 --> 00:35:11.490
be facing, which is going to impact
on the culture within companies.

00:35:11.854 --> 00:35:15.584
Ralph Grayson: So I'm desperately trying
to put myself in a board member's shoes

00:35:15.604 --> 00:35:18.874
listening to this and I'm going to mix
my metaphors horribly here but on the

00:35:18.874 --> 00:35:22.564
one hand I've got Mike Tyson, I think it
was saying, "Everybody's got to plan till

00:35:22.564 --> 00:35:26.214
they're punched in the face" and as an old
soldier I'm now thinking about everything

00:35:26.214 --> 00:35:30.637
I was taught at Sandhurst, which is
that we all have orders and procedures,

00:35:30.637 --> 00:35:35.077
but as soon as the bullets start
flying, process goes out of the window.

00:35:35.167 --> 00:35:37.512
Nik Gowing: Not just
process, but tactics as well.

00:35:38.192 --> 00:35:43.472
Ralph Grayson: So decision cycles at
board level now just fundamentally

00:35:43.502 --> 00:35:45.537
mismatch the reality of speed.

00:35:46.352 --> 00:35:47.657
So how do we try and square that circle?

00:35:48.639 --> 00:35:54.294
Nik Gowing: My very strong recommendation
is the fact that if you have a quarterly

00:35:54.294 --> 00:35:58.134
board meeting and it lasts two hours
with paperwork delivered a few days

00:35:58.134 --> 00:36:02.737
earlier, given the speed and the
pace at which the world is moving and

00:36:02.767 --> 00:36:07.447
changing and reconstructing itself in
the way that Mark Carney talked about

00:36:07.447 --> 00:36:12.547
it you've got to actually be meeting far
more regularly and virtually probably.

00:36:13.597 --> 00:36:18.767
I think it puts enormous responsibility
on board members, and that will be

00:36:18.767 --> 00:36:23.357
reflected in how much they're paid, and
what the expectations the chair has and

00:36:23.387 --> 00:36:25.427
what kind of stipulations the chair makes.

00:36:26.657 --> 00:36:29.687
I would feel uncomfortable if I was
the chief executive knowing that

00:36:29.687 --> 00:36:31.367
board is only meeting once a quarter.

00:36:32.912 --> 00:36:35.495
I think a board, because of
its responsibilities and its

00:36:35.495 --> 00:36:39.935
legal responsibilities and why
a board is created needs to have

00:36:39.985 --> 00:36:41.485
a much more hands-on approach.

00:36:42.175 --> 00:36:45.895
Which raises enormous questions about
who could become members of boards?

00:36:46.195 --> 00:36:49.345
Who can become members of boards,
particularly with unlimited

00:36:49.345 --> 00:36:57.608
liability and very quickly, the
potential for hiring people on

00:36:57.608 --> 00:36:59.948
boards narrows quite considerably.

00:37:00.321 --> 00:37:04.191
Ralph Grayson: Let's try and pull together
some conclusions as time's running on.

00:37:04.812 --> 00:37:09.222
What question should every
chair ask at their next meeting,

00:37:09.222 --> 00:37:10.512
having listened to this podcast?

00:37:12.642 --> 00:37:17.052
Nik Gowing: Do I realise the
enormity of unthinkables which are

00:37:17.052 --> 00:37:23.292
confronting me, or am I too hidebound
by what I think should be the case

00:37:23.292 --> 00:37:24.762
as opposed to what is the case?

00:37:25.692 --> 00:37:30.102
You know, no one believed that
Putin would actually do what he

00:37:30.102 --> 00:37:32.772
did in Ukraine, in Crimea in 2014.

00:37:33.192 --> 00:37:38.188
But he signalled it several times in
speeches and in long written documents.

00:37:38.508 --> 00:37:41.116
People thought, "No, he won't
do it." And that's where we are.

00:37:41.116 --> 00:37:45.946
We are facing autocracies around the
world who are going to be emboldened by

00:37:45.946 --> 00:37:49.786
the way Trump is performing and getting
away with it without even consulting

00:37:49.786 --> 00:37:52.876
Congress before the operation in Iran.

00:37:54.041 --> 00:37:59.254
Many of the codes, international
laws, international processes, which

00:37:59.254 --> 00:38:03.694
we take for granted as guaranteeing
security and safety, including for a

00:38:03.694 --> 00:38:09.694
business plan, are gone or in danger of
going, and they're going very quickly.

00:38:10.264 --> 00:38:15.104
So you've got to work out how you
replace it and go back to my middle

00:38:15.104 --> 00:38:16.894
of the night on a Saturday evening.

00:38:17.459 --> 00:38:18.629
What can you do on a Sunday?

00:38:18.629 --> 00:38:20.069
How can you convene people?

00:38:20.457 --> 00:38:23.877
I'm coming back to the core of
your question, Ralph, which is

00:38:24.267 --> 00:38:26.247
how prepared do you have to be?

00:38:26.247 --> 00:38:27.417
And it's about a culture.

00:38:27.417 --> 00:38:30.327
It's about saying this is a
different kind of board now.

00:38:30.537 --> 00:38:32.547
You've got to realise the
realities we're facing.

00:38:33.417 --> 00:38:39.660
Ralph Grayson: So if we're going to stop
one board behaviour immediately to move

00:38:39.660 --> 00:38:44.220
boards into the 21st century and then
to 2026, what's got to stop immediately?

00:38:44.230 --> 00:38:44.675
What's got to change?

00:38:46.300 --> 00:38:48.250
Nik Gowing: I was tempted to
use the word complacency, but

00:38:48.250 --> 00:38:49.570
I think that's a bit unfair.

00:38:50.063 --> 00:38:55.343
What's got to change is there has to be a
much greater commitment to understanding

00:38:55.373 --> 00:39:01.661
the importance of a board in overseeing
the executive suite and highlighting

00:39:01.661 --> 00:39:05.741
and pinpointing things, which may be the
C-suite has not even been considering.

00:39:06.520 --> 00:39:11.290
They should work as closely as possible
with the C-suite, and they should be

00:39:11.290 --> 00:39:15.850
seen as eyes and ears because if you are
not actually involved in the day-to-day

00:39:15.850 --> 00:39:20.320
running of a company with all the
minutiae of CFO, CSO and so on, and CEO,

00:39:20.530 --> 00:39:21.750
I don't have to go through the list.

00:39:21.800 --> 00:39:26.428
You're at least one stage removed,
but you are above it all and you

00:39:26.428 --> 00:39:29.218
should have a global perspective.

00:39:29.518 --> 00:39:34.888
Have a global perspective and consider
how it is applicable to the company

00:39:34.888 --> 00:39:36.358
that you are a board member of.

00:39:36.962 --> 00:39:38.135
I have doubts.

00:39:38.440 --> 00:39:40.600
I have doubts as to whether
this is done at the moment.

00:39:40.720 --> 00:39:41.800
There are some who do it.

00:39:42.760 --> 00:39:46.720
But there are others who are not that
insistent, who think that the way a

00:39:46.720 --> 00:39:50.290
board operates is the way it's been
operating for the last few years.

00:39:50.530 --> 00:39:54.820
As opposed to a new kind of board,
which should be increasingly

00:39:54.820 --> 00:39:57.250
effective simply by being more aware.

00:39:57.490 --> 00:40:00.760
Getting back to what the World
Economic Forum said in its global risk

00:40:00.760 --> 00:40:02.272
report at the beginning of this year.

00:40:02.492 --> 00:40:09.275
Everything has a role to play in
influencing what decisions we are taking

00:40:09.635 --> 00:40:13.415
as opposed to just waiting for the
information to come up from the C-suite.

00:40:14.420 --> 00:40:18.170
Ralph Grayson: So if a board
has truly embraced thinking the

00:40:18.170 --> 00:40:24.160
unthinkable, what are we going to
notice different from the prior board

00:40:24.160 --> 00:40:25.835
meeting to today's board meeting?

00:40:26.875 --> 00:40:29.275
Nik Gowing: Not being
shocked by developments.

00:40:30.235 --> 00:40:31.615
In other words, not panicking.

00:40:32.305 --> 00:40:34.405
This is not about being
optimistic or pessimistic.

00:40:34.405 --> 00:40:35.935
It's about, being positive.

00:40:36.475 --> 00:40:42.055
Good leadership is about being positive,
however dire and dark the reality is.

00:40:42.565 --> 00:40:46.675
And having a positive approach, not being
flustered, not being panicked by all

00:40:46.675 --> 00:40:48.655
of this, even if you are being heretic.

00:40:48.955 --> 00:40:53.519
But also knowing you have the space
in which you can operate and serve

00:40:53.519 --> 00:40:58.289
the board and the C-suite extremely
effectively by being a visionary.

00:40:59.069 --> 00:41:01.584
As opposed to someone who's stuck
in the old ways of thinking.

00:41:02.354 --> 00:41:04.454
Ralph Grayson: So we're going
to stop on that positive note.

00:41:05.064 --> 00:41:08.714
Nik, that's been one of the
most thought provoking podcasts

00:41:08.714 --> 00:41:10.034
I think I've ever recorded.

00:41:10.104 --> 00:41:11.964
Thank you so much for your insights.

00:41:12.144 --> 00:41:15.684
If people want to keep following
what you are thinking, writing about,

00:41:15.684 --> 00:41:17.364
talking about, how do they follow you?

00:41:18.049 --> 00:41:18.059
Nik Gowing: www.thinkunthink.org.

00:41:25.339 --> 00:41:29.779
We do podcasts every couple of
weeks and we emphasise the positive.

00:41:30.619 --> 00:41:33.559
We don't want to be whingers.

00:41:33.559 --> 00:41:35.629
We want this to be seen as
something which is helpful to

00:41:35.629 --> 00:41:38.659
people and so that's where we do it.

00:41:39.369 --> 00:41:44.799
I have two people working with me and
we spend a lot of time crafting these

00:41:44.799 --> 00:41:50.169
messages to encourage those who are
wavering and are not yet convinced

00:41:50.439 --> 00:41:54.399
that there is a positive way forward
and a positive way forward, even

00:41:54.459 --> 00:41:58.419
despite what is happening with all
the existential threats we now face.

00:41:59.794 --> 00:42:01.614
Ralph Grayson: Nik, so thought provoking.

00:42:01.674 --> 00:42:02.994
Thanks so much for your time.

00:42:02.994 --> 00:42:04.344
It's been a fantastic episode.

00:42:04.809 --> 00:42:06.669
Nik Gowing: Thank you for
risking talking to me.

00:42:08.036 --> 00:42:11.306
Ralph Grayson: I hope that you've enjoyed
listening to this podcast and have found

00:42:11.306 --> 00:42:15.566
it helpful when thinking about how to
approach your own path to the boardroom.

00:42:16.456 --> 00:42:19.596
If you would like to push this a
little bit further, Sainty Hird

00:42:19.616 --> 00:42:24.406
runs a bespoke one to one programme
designed specifically to this end.

00:42:24.741 --> 00:42:29.425
For more information, please visit
our website saintyhird.com, follow

00:42:29.425 --> 00:42:35.280
us on LinkedIn, and subscribe to the
Boardroom Path to receive new episodes.

00:42:35.626 --> 00:42:36.576
Thank you for listening.