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You're listening to the Battery Lab from
Urgaku. The show for researchers, developers,
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and industry leaders looking to stay current
and straddle the cutting edge of battery
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advancement and analysis. Stay tuned for
another Electric conversation. Was one of the
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pioneers charging forward to fuel the future. Let's start the show. Welcome to
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the Battery Lab Podcast. I'm Tim
Brado, the host of the show.
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In each episode, we will offer
insights from industry experts and leading academics about
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cutting edge research and advancements in battery
technology and manufacturing. This is a place
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to learn about what's happening in the
industry today from a variety of viewpoints,
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including materials, choices and enhancements,
useful analytical tools and methods, manufacturing techniques,
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battery performance achievements, emerging sell architectures, and improvements in safe d We
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will also touch on business perspectives,
policy and market trends. Each podcast consists
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of a one on one interview with
an academic or industry expert with an interesting
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perspective to share. I hope you
will listen, learn and enjoy. We
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are here today with Dr Rohan Gokle. Dr Gokle is currently the Applied Technology
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Manager for rechargeable battery Materials at Umicor. Umicor is based in Auburn Hills,
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Michigan. Prior to joining Umicor,
Mr Gokle was a research scientist at Nissan
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Motor Corporation. In particular, he
was investigating and validating all solid state batteries
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to achieve next generation high energy,
fast charging and high safety electric vehicles.
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Dr Gokley has a pH d in
Materials Chemistry from the National Chemical Laboratory in
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Pune, India. Dr GOKLEI thanks
for joining me today. It's my pleasure,
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Tim, thanks a lot for inviting
me so, Dr Gokley, it
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truly is a pleasure to have you
here today. I'd like to start today
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with the discussion about the electric vehicle
market, being with one of the largest
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battery markets, are the largest battery
market potential out there. Can you tell
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me and our listeners about the types
of batteries that are in general use today
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in the EV market? Yeah?
Absolutely, Tim, So, the electric
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vehicle industry mainly uses lithium ion batteries. These are rechargeable batteries which are some
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of the best out of the different
types of batteries out there. They have
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a really good energy density, they
have a good cycle life, great power
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capability and uh these batteries also have
a low self discharge and no memory effects.
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So these solution this technology is like
a perfect fit for the electric vehicle
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industry. I mean, most of
us are quite aware that ah this technology
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won the Nobel Prize in and ever
since it's commercialization in the nineteen nineties and
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the decade following that, this was
used for the portable electronics industry. These
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were like small lithium ion cells that
were implemented for this industry for the wireless
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devices that we use, and till
today we see their widespread use in this
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industry. However, in the last
decade and some years before that, there
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has been a use of lithiumine cells
in the EV market for the electric vehicles.
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And the cells that are used for
the electric vehicles are different than the
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ones that were used earlier for the
portable electronics. So these cells are really
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large cells and they are have capacity
more than fifty or seventy m power.
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These are large lithium ion cells and
our ability to really incorporate these lithamne cells
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into the electric vehicle was because of
the manufacturing innovations that have been happening over
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the last decade and also the decrease
in cost of the lithium ion cells that
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have enabled us to really use them
for electric vehicles. Now, if you
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look at the components of a typical
lithamone battery, like any other battery,
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it has the cathode, it has
the anode, it has the electrolyte.
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So when you look at the cathode, which is the positive electrode, it
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is quated on an aluminum current collector
and the cathodes can usually be nickel,
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manganese, cobalt oxides, layered oxides, and also some olivine structure like lithamine
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phosphates which are commonly used as cathodes
and AH On the anode side, the
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material and materials coated on a copper
current collector, and traditionally graphite has been
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used as the I would in a
lithium cell, and uh you have a
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fluorinated lithuma assault dissolved in an organic
elect organic solvent as the electrolyte in between
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these two electrodes, which are which
is then these two electros are also separated
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using a separator to prevent any shorting. The components of the lithium ion cell
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together make the battery and then this
is then encased in two different form factors
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like prismatic pouch and cylindrical cells.
Now these form factors each have their own
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advantage and disadvantage. For example,
when you look at the cylindrical cell famously
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used by Tesla manufactured by Panasonic,
it has a very stable design. It
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is a very adaptable cell, but
not very space effective. And if you
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look at prismatic cell, this is
is more like a rectangular like a matchbox
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kind of encasing and is but it's
very space effective and widely used. It's
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probably the most popular form factor out
there and it provides higher energy density.
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Volkswagen popularly uses this this type of
form factor. And then when the other
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one is poud cell which is a
lightweight and flexible design is getting very popular
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nowadays and Nissan uses power cell.
So these individual cells are now assembled together
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in in in the module and this
different modules that then go on on the
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battery pack along with other auxiliary things
like the BMS or the cooling system and
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everything goes on the e v AT
form. So Brohan, you had mentioned
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earlier about the use of aluminum and
copper for the electrode foils. Um,
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what is the significance of using either
of those materials? Why are the cathodes
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who usually manufactured on aluminum foil and
the anodes are usually manufactured on a copper
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foil. But what's the significance of
the different metals in that case? Yes,
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so the aluminum and copper foils,
of course are very good conductors of
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electricity, and they're also low cost
metals which can be easily used in large
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scale manufacturing. But apart from that, the specific use of these two current
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collectors, specifically electrode is mainly because
of the potentials in play here. The
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cathode is at a higher potential and
uh the aluminum is generally stable at that
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potential, so the cathold is preferably
quoted on an aluminum file, whereas on
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the anolde side it's at lower potential
and aluminum is not that stable there,
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so copper is supposed to be more
stable at lower potential advice versa. Copper
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cannot be used at the cathode because
of dissolution and other effects, so the
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redox potential stability is an important factor
when we choose these current collectors. I
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see, thank you. So now
that we have an understanding of what types
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of batteries are being used for electric
vehicles, we talked about pouch and prismatic
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and cylindrical type cells. Um,
what do you see as challenges that exist
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today with these production scale EV batteries? In other words, what's out there
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in production right now? Nothing's perfect? Right, So if we had to
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poke holes in them and say,
here's the weaknesses of the current level of
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technology in these current generation of batteries, what would you what would you say,
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are some of the weaknesses you know
where we're at today? Yeah,
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so we have in the last decade, we have really achieved remarkable progress in
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terms of the advancement of lithium ion
cells. However, there are still a
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lot of challenges that need to be
overcome, and multiple efforts everywhere throughout the
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world are ongoing to solve these challenges. So, uh, I would say,
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if the first challenge that would come
to my mind is the capacity or
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the energy density of the cell of
the battery, and this is this is
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this directly relates to the range of
the ev AH and it is it is
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an accepted target that in order to
make EVS really widely accepted, at least
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every vehicle should have at least three
hundred miles of range on a single charge.
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Right so ah, and you can
clearly see the industry moving towards trying
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to increase the energy density of the
packs that go on the vehicle. So
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there have there is there are solutions
for this on every level. So starting
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from the chemistry level, you see
a push from all the cell manufacturers and
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o m s towards higher nickel rich
or high nickel chemistry. So nickel rich
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chemistry is preferred because nickel two plus
can be oxidized right away up to nickel
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four plus, so it gives you
a wide redox chemistry options available, so
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you have more energy within the cell
there and uh so that is one direction
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where you have increased the nickel in
the cathode. The other way to increase
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there is also work on the anode
side, where traditionally graphite was used,
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but there are other chemistry is like
silicon based anode that are being explored in
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order to really increase the energy density
of the cell. And then you are
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also having research on electrolytes which with
which can go up to high potentials.
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So when you go at higher potentials, UH, then you can have more
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energy coming out of a cell.
But and the electrolyte itself can be quite
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stable. So a lot of research
on chemistry is ongoing right now to solve
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these challenges. And when you go
to the cell design level, there are
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ways to increase the energy where you
can try to like try to pack a
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punch in that cell by compacting the
cathode to higher energies and then trying to
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lower the thicknesses of the anode as
much as possible in order to really enhance
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the energy density of the cell.
And UH, at the pack level,
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you see a lot of innovation happening
in the architectures where you can like architectures
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like cell to back instead of having
any modules, but you can say more
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space by directly integrating the cell to
the pack. And in some cases efforts
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are on going to integrate the cell
directly to the vehicle, so this will
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probably say on say space and you
can get more energy what our per leader
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energy density there. The the other
challenge I would say is rate capability is
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trying to achieve high capacity at faster
charge because I mean, when we go
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on a road trip, right,
we need we don't want to wait for
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ten minutes to charge the battery.
Yeah, well, I mean ten minutes
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will be a goal? Was that
like an hour right now? Right?
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So, and that that's unacceptable for
the average user exactly. I think you'd
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be okay at night, but not
when you're traveling. You know, on
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the go you need some factory charge, right. Absolutely. I think that
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is even more critical than range for
me. This aspect is you can you
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should be able to charge your vehicle
like say, ten minutes at the most
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and right now. The efforts in
that direction are also ongoing in terms of
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the chemistry and cell design as well, where you have high power batteries and
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high faster charging. The chemistries that
can enable faster charging as well, and
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then you have solutions at the system
level also for that which are being worked
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on. So that is another challenge
that needs to be addressed. The third
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I would say is UH longevity or
the cycle life of the cell. It
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has to when you when some when
anyone buys an electric vehicle, it has
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to go UH for a certain number
of years, and we should be able
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to use it as much as possible. That's our goal actually. So the
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general target given to the battery industry
is a thousand cycles, So if you
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have three miles on one cycle,
then it's like around three hundred thousand miles,
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right, you can go on a
thousand cycles at full full depth of
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discharge. So this is indeed a
challenging target, but ah, it's necessary
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right now. And so what happens
is when you look at the electrochemical device
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like a battery, right, there
are so many along with the lithium intercalation
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de intercalation reactions during the charge and
discharge, there are several other side reactions
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that are happening. So one is
like the formation of the solid electrolyte interface
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at the anode side. So you
have a species reacting on the surface on
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the anode and a resistive layer is
gradually increases within more number of cycles of
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the charge and discharge of the battery. Then you have the the lithium intercalation
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and the intercalation from the cathode.
You know, there is a change in
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the volume or uh of the cathodes, so there's a expansion contraction of the
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crystallites and in many cases this anisotropic
expansion and contraction causes crack formation and this
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can result in degradation of the electrode. So the other I mean, there
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are several other degradation mechanisms, like
even electrolyte can start decomposing, or there
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are gasing can happen, like you
have oxygen being liberated or formation of high
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HF within the system. So all
of these degradation mechanisms really give rise to
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higher resistance in the cell. And
with the more number of cycles, the
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resistance goes on increasing and this causes
the capacity to drop below which is which
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is probably the minimum acceptable level.
So yeah, the efforts right now on
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all friends are to increase the cycle
life as well. And very closely closely
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related to the cycle life is the
safety aspect. You've seen the news quite
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often, especially I mean recently after
the Hurricane Ian that happened in Florida.
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You see electric car fires and that's
quite challenging right now where you have we
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don't want the ev to catch fire, so we have to really meet those
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safety standards and make sure that the
materials or the chemistry inside is quite stable.
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And then for safety you also have
the role of the battery management system.
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The cooling system within the entire battery
pack as well, So that is
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that is also critical. In terms
of the other challenge I would say is
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very important is the cost, and
this is probably the most important for a
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widespread adoption of EVIS and a general
cost target for the IS EVIS to become
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really cost competitive with ice engine vehicles
is having the battery packs at less than
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hundred dollars per kilo. What our
right now we are probably at one fifty
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or some other I mean, it's
been changing recently quite a lot, but
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if you see it's it's way lower
than that bought it was a decade before,
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like almost ten times lower than that. But we still have to achieve
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the target. And now as we
come close to the target, it's becoming
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even more challenging to achieve that.
So uh well, then there's a lot
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more pressure on the resources, driving
the price up right exactly exactly, And
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so we have declining availability of lithium
because so many people are trying to use
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lithium all over the globe to make
e bikes, to make cell phones,
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to make electric vehicle batteries, I
mean lithium lithium lithium. Then pretty soon
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Huh, lithium supply gets shorter,
the price goes up right after. Instead
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of us being able to achieve cost
reduction, we're kind of forcing cost increases
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because of the high demand. So
yeah, it's an interesting economic challenge.
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The same thing happened with nickel,
right so, nickel was widely used for
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the stainless steel industry, and but
of course for the grade one nickel,
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which is which is what is used
high very high purity nickel that is used
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in the battery industry, and the
prices have been just skyrocketing right now.
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So it's all related to the increasing
increase in demand for batteries. And then
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it comes to our final final challenge, which is the raw material availability.
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Right like right now, it's a
it's not really very convenient each time where
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the minerals are found, so we
have to across global supply chains and it
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becomes challenging. For example, something
that happened right now with the war in
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Russia and Ukraine has really affected the
nickel supply chain as well. So uh
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so we have to find ways and
that's the focus of the U. S
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Government right now to relocalize the supply
chains and try to have production and raw
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material. Say refining, for example, is something that should happen locally.
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Right now, I think seventy percent
of refining is now in China, and
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that can become a big challenge for
the domestic supply chain. Absolutely. Yeah,
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So there's a variety of challenges.
They are ahead of us in terms
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of how do we further improve e
V battery performance and even consumer electronic battery
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performance. But consumer electronics are pretty
well established right now with accept a performance
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level. UM electric vehicles are still
struggling a bit in order to achieve that
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range, in order to achieve the
fast charging, to achieve the psycho life
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and all of that. There's just
so many challenges there. And we're dealing
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with chemistry's that don't behave like like
silicon right we Moore's law does not apply
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to batteries and technology, and I
always describe it as kind of a whack
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a mole problem. You know,
you solve one problem, you just created
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two more. So um, you
know. Anyway, So moving forward here,
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Yeah, so a lot of challenges
there is Is there any any one
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particular challenge there that concerns you the
most? You know, would it be
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the capacity achieving the capacity goals or
the fast charging goals. What do you
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think is the most elusive problem out
there to solve? Yeah, that's a
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that's a good question, actually,
I mean from my perspective, I think
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I'm sure there will be different opinions
on this, but from my perspective,
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we will definitely be able to solve
other problems, like the technical problems that
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I talked about, But I think
the most important one is to really have
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the sustainable sourcing of raw materials and
lowering the cost. So basically securing the
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supply chain and also lowering the cost
is critical for me. I mean,
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and it has to be also done
sustainably, right. The whole point of
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moving towards electric vehicles is to really
lower our carbon footprint, so we have
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to make sure that we achieve the
costs. At the same time, we
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are able to have a very low
two footprint in the materials that we source.
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So trying to get all these things
together is probably going to be our
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biggest challenge. Okay, that's great, Yeah, that's what I think.
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That's a great I mean, that's
a great perspective. You're you're basically saying,
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eventually we will resolve the technical issues, But solving the global supply of
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raw materials, that's kind of a
big issue to solve, right, So
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whether that we can do that remains
to be seen. One of the ways
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we do that is by designing different
cathodes, right. So right, today's
239
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as you were mentioning, today's cathodes
typically consist of NMC so nickel, manganese
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um, cobalt oxide. If we
get rid of the cobalt and we get
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rid of the nickel, we we
solve a lot of those global supply issues.
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Um. But then we have to
replace them with something else that works
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as good or better, And there
there's the challenge, right, But a
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lot of people are doing research on
that right now to reduce the percentage of
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cobalt or eliminated altogether. In the
near term, they're driving up the percentage
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of nickel or higher of the cathode
electrode um and uh, but eventually nicol's
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gonna have to get designed out,
you know, in order to keep driving
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down costs and reducing the demands on
limited supply chain. So yeah, it's
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uh, it's a challenge, especially
with the amount of demand um um for
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electric vehicles. Right some of that
demand is being Uh, you know,
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government pressures are are creating some of
that demand, but there's also a desire
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for it because let's face it,
when you have an electric vehicle with a
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good battery, it's amazing the amount
of acceleration, it's quiet, it's reliable.
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All that's good, um, as
long as it meets our other expectations
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and uh, and that's what we'll
be working on in the coming years.
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Yeah, it's a much much more
efficient technology. It's a cleaner engine,
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right, right, So there's a
lot there's a lot of goodness to come
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from this, absolutely, and we're
making great progress. And you know,
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we're already there for smaller electric because
I think are already in that range of
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acceptable performance and range and for certain
applications like you know, buses and service
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vehicles that are used during the day
and it can easily be charged every night,
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um, you know when they're off
duty. Great great application. Um.
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The challenges for us weekend warriors where
we want to hop in the car
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and drive around all weekend long,
and we're all in remote places where there's
265
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no charge stations, right that that's
that's the challenge, and that's where the
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range anxiety comes in. And I
mean, if you see, this is
267
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also dependent on the country where it's
being used. For example, the range
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that we really need in North America
is much more than what it's probably needed
269
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in China or Europe. So I
mean China right now, it is much
270
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wider adoption of evs right now,
But so the requirements will change from region
271
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to region as well. And that's
also always being considered when batteries are being
272
00:25:04.240 --> 00:25:10.079
designed for a particular market, right
right, all right, So kind of
273
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getting back to the technology here,
Um, if we look at the cathode
274
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in particular, what is the importance
of cathode material in the battery? What
275
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are the different types of cathodes and
advantages and disadvantages of different cathode materials.
276
00:25:25.400 --> 00:25:27.680
Yeah, that's a good, very
good question. Actually, So the cathode
277
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UH is probably the most important component
of the cell, mainly because it contributes
278
00:25:34.680 --> 00:25:42.960
to about the cost of the cell
um and it also has a significant impact
279
00:25:44.000 --> 00:25:51.079
on the energy or capacity of the
cell. AH. The most widely used
280
00:25:51.279 --> 00:25:56.160
cathode materials right now, I would
say, are nickel, manganiscobald and nickel,
281
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cobalt, aluminum and c A type
materials, which are most widely used,
282
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and the other one that is used
is the LFP them and phosphate and
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00:26:07.799 --> 00:26:15.440
olivine structure. So h each has
again its own advantage and disadvantage, and
284
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depending on the application, a cell
manufacturer may choose to select either one of
285
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these cathodes or some other cathode.
Also, so when you look at the
286
00:26:27.319 --> 00:26:34.039
energy density aspect, then the nickel
based cathodes have layered oxides have clear advantage
287
00:26:34.079 --> 00:26:41.000
in terms of energy density H.
So in some in a place like North
288
00:26:41.000 --> 00:26:45.279
America, for example, I see
more application of NMC or n C A
289
00:26:45.319 --> 00:26:52.480
type materials here. And when you
look at the cycle life or safety,
290
00:26:52.559 --> 00:26:56.680
then LFP has the advantage because it
can go. It has much better thermal
291
00:26:56.720 --> 00:27:02.079
stability, and it can go are
many number psychles has come back to NMC.
292
00:27:02.440 --> 00:27:07.039
However, again then there might be
some differing opinions right now. Recently
293
00:27:07.000 --> 00:27:14.839
Jeff Dan has to bring that up. Jeff Don would definitely argue that and
294
00:27:14.880 --> 00:27:18.920
say, all you have to do
is lower the charge voltage on n MC
295
00:27:18.319 --> 00:27:23.920
and you will completely outperform LFP.
So, yeah, Jeff, as you
296
00:27:23.960 --> 00:27:29.680
were pointing out, Jeff Don recently
published uh well, did a talk at
297
00:27:29.839 --> 00:27:36.440
the two forty one ECS conference I
believe in Vancouver where he was talking about
298
00:27:36.519 --> 00:27:40.960
a million mile battery UM and or
a hundred year battery. And how does
299
00:27:41.000 --> 00:27:44.079
he achieve that, Well, you
know, they're they're on test cells right
300
00:27:44.119 --> 00:27:48.480
now. They're testing UM small little
test cells, so they're not large,
301
00:27:48.920 --> 00:27:52.920
full EV batteries yet. But at
the R and D level, he is
302
00:27:52.960 --> 00:27:59.480
demonstrating literally thousands of regards cycles with
very high energy densities, but he doesn't
303
00:27:59.519 --> 00:28:03.000
take advantag to all of it.
He reduces the charge voltage, so he's
304
00:28:03.039 --> 00:28:08.079
giving up some energy density, but
he's achieving far more stable performance UM over
305
00:28:08.160 --> 00:28:14.720
thousands of cycles with almost negligible degradation. I mean, he's predicting he's going
306
00:28:14.720 --> 00:28:17.079
to you know, it takes years
and years and years to prove it.
307
00:28:17.759 --> 00:28:21.960
You can only test so many cycles
per year, and he's already three years
308
00:28:21.960 --> 00:28:26.400
in. But in another three years, another seven years, he's going to
309
00:28:26.480 --> 00:28:29.680
have some amazing data to share with
the world UM. And one of the
310
00:28:29.680 --> 00:28:33.160
ways he's achieving that that he's speaking
about publicly is by simply reducing the charge
311
00:28:33.200 --> 00:28:38.799
voltage, and that has an amazing
impact, so that that emphasizes the importance
312
00:28:38.839 --> 00:28:44.119
of having a material, a catholic
material like NMC, which has that higher
313
00:28:44.519 --> 00:28:48.720
charge potential capability, right, because
then you can give up some you can
314
00:28:48.720 --> 00:28:52.920
actually then not take advantage of all
of it and therefore increase the longevity and
315
00:28:52.960 --> 00:28:56.599
the cycle life of that material.
Absolutely, Yeah, absolutely, And Jef
316
00:28:56.680 --> 00:29:00.920
Done is a big fan of NMC
and trying to lower its supper cutoff voltage
317
00:29:00.960 --> 00:29:06.079
and and that data is really good. So yeah, I mean again,
318
00:29:07.440 --> 00:29:10.839
uh, I also had asked him
this question that would do we really need
319
00:29:10.880 --> 00:29:17.519
to go beyond push these boundaries of
high nickel going about? So, I
320
00:29:17.559 --> 00:29:21.680
mean, he seems to believe like
in terms of solving if we're really interested
321
00:29:21.680 --> 00:29:25.839
in solving global warming, we should
look at medium nickel chemistry or maybe even
322
00:29:25.880 --> 00:29:29.519
like eight one one chemistry. But
we just lower the upper cut off voltage
323
00:29:29.559 --> 00:29:33.880
and you can make the battery cycle
for much longer and even more longer than
324
00:29:33.920 --> 00:29:37.000
a lef P. So, right, just a quart of a couple of
325
00:29:37.000 --> 00:29:44.559
things you just mentioned there. Eight
one one mnc mc means nickel and ten
326
00:29:44.640 --> 00:29:48.720
percent manganese and ten percent cobal.
So we're reducing the cobal, driving up
327
00:29:48.759 --> 00:29:52.799
the percentage of nickel, and uh, we're getting really good results absolutely in
328
00:29:52.880 --> 00:29:56.880
terms of energy density and psycho life. So yeah, and I also wanted
329
00:29:56.880 --> 00:30:03.480
to mention that Professor Jeff Don is
at the Universe of Dollhousie University in Nova
330
00:30:03.480 --> 00:30:07.440
Scotia, Canada. Um. All
right, so all right, so that
331
00:30:07.519 --> 00:30:11.920
was a great discussion about technology,
Thank you very much. So we we've
332
00:30:11.920 --> 00:30:18.039
talked about where we're at today.
We've uh with with technology, We've talked
333
00:30:18.039 --> 00:30:22.519
about sort of the state of the
industry. UM, let's look do some
334
00:30:22.640 --> 00:30:26.039
forward looking here. What trends do
you see in the e V battery technology
335
00:30:26.079 --> 00:30:32.000
market um or other like consumer electronic
markets or whatever. But in general,
336
00:30:32.720 --> 00:30:36.039
um, you know, what are
the trends. What are some of the
337
00:30:36.079 --> 00:30:45.519
most exciting material and or architectural changes
that you're seeing in the e V industry?
338
00:30:45.880 --> 00:30:48.720
Yeah, so, I mean it's
a very exciting time to be bactory
339
00:30:48.720 --> 00:30:55.200
scientists. Actually. So, I
mean you see several novations happening. And
340
00:30:56.039 --> 00:31:00.200
I mean when you look at the
conventional lithia mine batory chnology with the liquid
341
00:31:00.200 --> 00:31:07.559
electrolyte, there are there is incremental
improvement happening there. However, if you
342
00:31:07.880 --> 00:31:12.039
if we are looking for step change
improvement or step up improvement, there ah.
343
00:31:12.440 --> 00:31:17.279
You may have heard of the all
solid state battery, which is which
344
00:31:17.319 --> 00:31:22.000
is shows a lot of promise in
the coming decade. So the solid state
345
00:31:22.039 --> 00:31:27.160
battery basically uh, instead of using
is A is a lithium ion battery,
346
00:31:27.200 --> 00:31:33.480
but it does not use a liquid
electrolyte. It uses a solid electrolyte like
347
00:31:33.519 --> 00:31:42.119
a sulfide or polymer or an oxide
electrolyte. And it unlocks our ability to
348
00:31:42.240 --> 00:31:48.039
use lithium anode and lithiumatal as an
anode. So we can increase the energy
349
00:31:48.079 --> 00:31:53.240
density from right now which is about
two fifty what our per kg or five
350
00:31:55.160 --> 00:31:57.519
leaders, so we can actually take
it to five hundred what our per kg
351
00:31:57.799 --> 00:32:04.759
or thousand what are lead kind of
range. So uh, it also helps
352
00:32:04.880 --> 00:32:12.279
us overcome this problem of fast charging. It can give us we can achieve
353
00:32:12.359 --> 00:32:19.559
higher power there. Ah. And
the the other thing that the solid shade
354
00:32:19.559 --> 00:32:24.839
batteries it does not really need a
cooling system because it does not have these
355
00:32:24.839 --> 00:32:32.400
flammable organic electro lights. So AH, once we eliminate the use of the
356
00:32:32.440 --> 00:32:37.960
cooling systems in the battery pack,
then you have a lot more space,
357
00:32:37.000 --> 00:32:43.640
so we can definitely increase the energy
density of the battery. On the vehicle.
358
00:32:43.720 --> 00:32:49.079
So UH, if we are able
to really make these solid shade batteries
359
00:32:49.400 --> 00:32:52.799
in the large scale for an eavy
market, then that would be a big
360
00:32:52.440 --> 00:32:57.039
improvement in terms of what we can
achieve from now. Of course, there
361
00:32:57.039 --> 00:33:00.240
are a lot of challenges that have
to be overcome for the solid shade battery,
362
00:33:00.279 --> 00:33:06.359
but towards the end of the decade, solid shade batteries would be an
363
00:33:06.359 --> 00:33:13.519
important part of the earlitha mine battery
market. The the other technology I would
364
00:33:13.519 --> 00:33:19.000
say is the emergence of the manganese
rich chemistry in on the cathode side for
365
00:33:19.079 --> 00:33:23.680
the conventional batteries UM. So with
the manganese rich chemistry you can get much
366
00:33:23.759 --> 00:33:29.920
higher energy density uh. And of
course it is coupled with research on electrolytes
367
00:33:29.960 --> 00:33:35.039
which can sustain a much wider electroc
the voltage window. And the manganese rich
368
00:33:35.119 --> 00:33:40.599
chemistry where is also is not very
expensive. So because manganese is the dominant
369
00:33:42.039 --> 00:33:45.680
element there which is and you have
lower amounts of nickel and cobalt, so
370
00:33:46.279 --> 00:33:51.519
we can achieve higher energy density at
the same time have lower costs, so
371
00:33:52.839 --> 00:33:59.920
costs are even actually better than LFP. So ah multiple I would say targets
372
00:34:00.000 --> 00:34:04.039
and be achieved with manganese rich chemistry
on the cathode side. But again there
373
00:34:04.079 --> 00:34:09.559
are some challenges that have to be
addressed where there's a voltage fade that happens
374
00:34:09.559 --> 00:34:16.920
with this, and cell manufacturers are
actively trying to solve these problems along with
375
00:34:16.960 --> 00:34:22.880
the material manufacturers. So the other
material I would say is uh, silicon
376
00:34:23.199 --> 00:34:30.239
anodes that is being Yeah, right
now it's used for portable electronics, but
377
00:34:30.599 --> 00:34:34.599
not for much for the EV market. But we might see adoption of silicon
378
00:34:34.639 --> 00:34:38.840
anode chemistry for evs in the next
decade, so that could be an exciting
379
00:34:38.840 --> 00:34:44.079
thing coming up. And Uh,
this this was in terms of the chemistry,
380
00:34:44.079 --> 00:34:49.960
but if you look at other aspects
like improvements in the system level,
381
00:34:51.360 --> 00:34:54.079
there are different cell architectures that are
coming up. Recently, there was an
382
00:34:54.079 --> 00:35:00.800
announcement by LG on the incorporation of
cell to pack chemistry cell to back architecture
383
00:35:00.880 --> 00:35:07.280
for he nickel, which was which
was not easy to do. So this
384
00:35:07.360 --> 00:35:13.719
type of innovations will come come soon
which will help us achieve that try to
385
00:35:14.119 --> 00:35:17.800
solve some of these problems that we
face. And in the long term you
386
00:35:17.880 --> 00:35:25.199
see emergence of other battery chemistries like
sodium mind battery or even some exotic cathodes
387
00:35:25.280 --> 00:35:31.000
like disordered rock salts and that kind
of system. So we will see.
388
00:35:31.119 --> 00:35:37.920
But you know, it's definitely an
exciting time and we're going to see different
389
00:35:37.920 --> 00:35:42.039
designs, different materials going forward in
the after seven years. Yeah, I
390
00:35:42.079 --> 00:35:45.199
mean, it is pretty exciting the
potential that's out there. Um, it
391
00:35:45.239 --> 00:35:51.440
seems like it's almost like the semi
connector industry was ten years ago. People
392
00:35:51.519 --> 00:35:54.159
started to think that we were reaching
the limit of More's law, but then
393
00:35:54.599 --> 00:35:58.719
researchers found a way to push through
it. You know, it looked like
394
00:35:58.760 --> 00:36:01.360
he was bleak, like there's just
no way we can make these transistors any
395
00:36:01.440 --> 00:36:07.880
smaller, but they did and they
continue to do so. And obviously similar
396
00:36:07.920 --> 00:36:12.960
things are going to happen here in
the battery industry, where despite how challenging
397
00:36:13.199 --> 00:36:17.280
some of these issues appear to be, with with all of the research globally,
398
00:36:17.519 --> 00:36:22.480
all the investment going into battery technology, we will find ways around some
399
00:36:22.519 --> 00:36:25.960
of these challenges. It may not
be as easy um as in the semi
400
00:36:25.960 --> 00:36:30.880
connector industry, but um, but
there will be advancements, There will be
401
00:36:30.920 --> 00:36:36.840
improvements, and and we all can
look forward to the type of e V
402
00:36:37.000 --> 00:36:42.559
battery that would we would really enjoy
owning, right And and that's that's the
403
00:36:42.559 --> 00:36:45.119
goal is to be to be excited
about buying that e V car, to
404
00:36:45.280 --> 00:36:49.599
have it a big party of your
life. Not only in terms of transportation,
405
00:36:49.760 --> 00:36:52.239
it could also be used um.
You know what do they call that
406
00:36:54.320 --> 00:37:00.239
vehicle to grid where you connect your
your your pickup truck in your drive way
407
00:37:00.400 --> 00:37:07.960
to the grid and and the electrical
company is is reimbursing you for the ability
408
00:37:08.039 --> 00:37:13.239
to um. You know, either
either you charge your electric vehicle through a
409
00:37:13.239 --> 00:37:17.559
solar panel and and sell it back
to the utility company, or they charge
410
00:37:17.599 --> 00:37:23.840
you overnight at a low cost.
I mean, there's you know, there's
411
00:37:23.840 --> 00:37:29.920
just so much you can do it. It becomes a grid of distributed energy
412
00:37:29.960 --> 00:37:34.760
storage devices and everyone's driveway and everyone's
garage, um and so that the utility
413
00:37:34.760 --> 00:37:39.599
companies don't have to build all this
battery capacity to to make up for the
414
00:37:39.679 --> 00:37:43.719
lack of renewable energy, you know, when the wind doesn't blow and the
415
00:37:43.800 --> 00:37:47.320
sun isn't shining and things like that. So it's it's it's a it's a
416
00:37:47.320 --> 00:37:52.840
lofty goal, but it's very impressive
to what it could mean to society and
417
00:37:52.920 --> 00:37:58.679
to the challenge challenges. Yeah,
I mean I completely agree with that because,
418
00:37:59.280 --> 00:38:01.840
uh I mean, the market is
going to be like beyond two terra
419
00:38:01.960 --> 00:38:06.840
what our for example, for at
towards the end of the decade, and
420
00:38:07.039 --> 00:38:10.519
there's just simply a lot of efforts
going on, a lot of investment.
421
00:38:10.719 --> 00:38:15.440
I'm sure we are going to find
ways to solve these problems and I'm very
422
00:38:15.519 --> 00:38:22.079
optimistic about that. So moving beyond
technology, now, let's talk about your
423
00:38:22.159 --> 00:38:28.800
particular company, you mc war um. How would you describe umicors participation and
424
00:38:28.920 --> 00:38:35.840
position within the e V battery value
chain? Yes, so, Umicore is
425
00:38:36.360 --> 00:38:43.719
what we term ourselves as a circular
materials technology company and we are a global
426
00:38:43.800 --> 00:38:49.039
leader in cathode materials mainly nicole maganis
COO ball to an m C oxide kind
427
00:38:49.039 --> 00:38:54.559
of materials. And the part of
the value chain where Umicore is involved is
428
00:38:55.480 --> 00:39:00.679
obtaining raw materials from the miners.
We are oursels are not involved in mining.
429
00:39:01.320 --> 00:39:06.639
The Umicore has a history of expertise
in mining and was a mining company
430
00:39:06.639 --> 00:39:10.039
in the past, but we moved
away from that and uh so we obtain
431
00:39:10.119 --> 00:39:17.199
these raw materials from the mining companies
and then do refining at different locations across
432
00:39:17.239 --> 00:39:23.599
the world. And after refining,
then the the we are involved in making
433
00:39:23.599 --> 00:39:31.559
the precursors for the cathode materials from
these refined products products. And then after
434
00:39:31.639 --> 00:39:36.920
we make the precursor of the cathodes, the precursors are then transferred to the
435
00:39:36.920 --> 00:39:45.360
catholic material production plant and then a
final n m C powder is is manufactured.
436
00:39:45.440 --> 00:39:52.440
So overall we make like we're a
chemical company manufacturing catholic powders. And
437
00:39:52.480 --> 00:40:00.320
then we supply these materials to battery
manufacturers or o M s whoever is going
438
00:40:00.360 --> 00:40:06.920
to manufacture these cells. And so
this is the part where we are involved
439
00:40:06.960 --> 00:40:09.960
in. And the other most important
part that we are also involved in involved
440
00:40:10.000 --> 00:40:15.320
in is recycling. So we take
the end of life batteries and then we
441
00:40:15.400 --> 00:40:21.400
have we recycled back into the base
metals and start all over again in terms
442
00:40:21.440 --> 00:40:25.800
of the cathold manufacturing process. Okay, see your company actually does the recycling
443
00:40:25.840 --> 00:40:30.320
process. Yes, okay, all
right, because I know there's a lot
444
00:40:30.360 --> 00:40:34.400
of other companies and startup companies that
are looking to do battery recycling, but
445
00:40:34.480 --> 00:40:37.920
in your case, you do that
as well. Interesting, all right,
446
00:40:37.280 --> 00:40:40.440
So, Dr Gokley, can can
you describe for us the type of work
447
00:40:40.480 --> 00:40:46.159
you're currently doing at umcore and how
you see this potentially impacting the EV industry.
448
00:40:49.119 --> 00:40:53.119
Yeah. So, I'm the Applied
Technology Manager for umicore in North America.
449
00:40:53.880 --> 00:41:00.920
My role is to connect with cell
manufacturers and o ms, evaluate different
450
00:41:00.920 --> 00:41:08.199
technologies, also support with support existing
customers, and provide technical solutions and kind
451
00:41:08.239 --> 00:41:14.880
of act like a bridge between Umico
R and Y and customer technical teams in
452
00:41:14.960 --> 00:41:21.400
order to make sure that our materials
are successful in this battery design. So
453
00:41:22.599 --> 00:41:29.719
I also support business development activities in
North America. So about how I see
454
00:41:29.760 --> 00:41:34.920
myself and my role is like trying
to build bridges within the battery ecosystem and
455
00:41:35.719 --> 00:41:40.639
accelerating the electrification transition. So uh
yeah, that that that is I think
456
00:41:42.039 --> 00:41:46.400
very important for this time. Great, thank you, thank you. Yeah,
457
00:41:46.480 --> 00:41:49.920
I'm gonna you know, I had
a few other questions I was going
458
00:41:49.960 --> 00:41:52.000
to ask you, but I think
we've already addressed that. Um So I'm
459
00:41:52.000 --> 00:41:58.679
gonna move on here and let's talk
about analytics. Can you talk about what
460
00:41:58.800 --> 00:42:02.760
kind of material and analysis is currently
used to evaluate the quality and consistency of
461
00:42:02.800 --> 00:42:15.079
these electrode materials and how this is
measured. So at Unicode we definitely use
462
00:42:16.159 --> 00:42:23.159
most of the advanced characterization techniques in
order to make sure that our Catherine material
463
00:42:23.400 --> 00:42:29.599
is up to the standard for making
the cells, and Humicode is very well
464
00:42:29.679 --> 00:42:35.280
known for the quality of the product
in the market. So if you look
465
00:42:35.280 --> 00:42:40.199
at, for example, when we'll
have the final NMC powder, then if
466
00:42:40.199 --> 00:42:45.199
we do the x r D to
determine the crystallinity of the material whether it
467
00:42:45.280 --> 00:42:51.239
is single crystalline de poly crystalline materials, and then we also look at the
468
00:42:51.360 --> 00:42:59.599
particle size distribution of these materials using
the particle size analyzers, then we have
469
00:43:00.440 --> 00:43:06.920
all the techniques like XPS where we
study the surface of the materials AH we
470
00:43:07.000 --> 00:43:10.480
do I c P in order to
make sure we have achieved the targeted composition
471
00:43:10.800 --> 00:43:17.159
of elements within our cathode material,
and we also find out the surface impurities
472
00:43:17.440 --> 00:43:23.239
if it is within acceptable levels.
So in addition to that we have also
473
00:43:24.000 --> 00:43:34.280
we also routinely analyze using scanning electron
microscopy or transmission electron microscopy studies. And
474
00:43:34.840 --> 00:43:37.880
these are the general These are some
of the general characterizations that we do for
475
00:43:38.360 --> 00:43:47.039
our materials, but we also actively
collaborate with universities to do advanced characterization of
476
00:43:47.440 --> 00:43:52.000
our materials and try to improve where
we can. So we have several research
477
00:43:52.039 --> 00:43:59.960
projects within with UH, with you, with say startup companies or with university
478
00:44:00.039 --> 00:44:04.440
days where we engage in improving all
product as much as possible. You know,
479
00:44:04.559 --> 00:44:07.840
Really, partnerships are really important.
I've been involved personally with partnerships so
480
00:44:08.000 --> 00:44:13.440
most of my career, and it's
it's the way to get things done right.
481
00:44:13.679 --> 00:44:17.800
It's it's too difficult to solve some
of these challenges by individual people,
482
00:44:17.920 --> 00:44:22.760
individual companies, But when you start
to form alliances, strate teaching, partnerships,
483
00:44:23.400 --> 00:44:30.079
um, suddenly some of these big
mountainous type problems can be can be
484
00:44:30.159 --> 00:44:34.480
resolved. So so, Rohan,
do you have thoughts about the future of
485
00:44:34.519 --> 00:44:37.400
the E D battery industry and where
we might be in ten plus years.
486
00:44:38.000 --> 00:44:45.280
For example, will we see significant
battery performance improvement after the current advanced materials
487
00:44:45.280 --> 00:44:50.079
are explored or do you think we
are already seeing the limits of available battery
488
00:44:50.119 --> 00:44:59.119
chemistries and are limited to incremental improvements
going forward. Yeah, I'm very optimistic
489
00:44:59.239 --> 00:45:06.840
in general about out the industry at
this time, and in general I would
490
00:45:07.320 --> 00:45:13.119
definitely expect much wider adoption of electric
vehicles going forward in the next day and
491
00:45:13.159 --> 00:45:16.760
or twenty years. And of course
you see a drive by different governments where
492
00:45:16.800 --> 00:45:23.360
you are. They they see a
target of about fifty electrification. I mean,
493
00:45:23.400 --> 00:45:28.440
even if we don't really reach that
target, but I'm sure it's going
494
00:45:28.480 --> 00:45:34.719
to be a big numbers are going
to be used by many people, and
495
00:45:34.760 --> 00:45:39.239
I would see a much deeper market
penetration. And this will happen in the
496
00:45:39.719 --> 00:45:45.719
high performance segment, the premium segment, as well as the low cost economic
497
00:45:45.320 --> 00:45:51.559
segment of automotive industry as well.
So I think when you look at the
498
00:45:51.599 --> 00:45:54.880
incremental changes that those will continue to
happen in the conventional lithium mind battery,
499
00:45:57.199 --> 00:46:01.920
so this will also serve as specific
market. But I also expect much more
500
00:46:02.000 --> 00:46:08.199
to step up changes when we when
we see these latest technologies that we talked
501
00:46:08.239 --> 00:46:15.639
about. These technologies will soon become
mainstream in the next ten or twenty years
502
00:46:15.719 --> 00:46:22.280
and this will give will help us
cover the technical gap that exists today and
503
00:46:22.320 --> 00:46:27.159
there would be huge improvements in the
performance of the leaky mindselles going forward.
504
00:46:27.239 --> 00:46:34.280
So I definitely see a very exciting
future for this field. And there's going
505
00:46:34.320 --> 00:46:38.920
to be a huge transformation or in
the automotive industry in this in the next
506
00:46:39.840 --> 00:46:45.400
in the next decades. So it's
a very exciting time. All right,
507
00:46:45.480 --> 00:46:47.559
Well, I think that will need
to be the final word for this episode.
508
00:46:47.920 --> 00:46:51.599
Dr Goakley, thank you so much
for joining me today. That was
509
00:46:51.599 --> 00:46:54.519
a very interesting and insightful discussion.
Thank you so much, and to our
510
00:46:54.559 --> 00:46:59.400
listeners, thanks for joining today.
We hope this discussion has been informative and
511
00:46:59.480 --> 00:47:02.440
valuable to you. Please make sure
to come back and tune into another episode
512
00:47:02.440 --> 00:47:13.880
of The Battery Lab. We all
want a more reliable, safe and efficient
513
00:47:13.920 --> 00:47:17.840
future. That's why here at Regoku, we're helping to power tomorrow through advanced
514
00:47:17.880 --> 00:47:24.079
analytical technology for battery research and quality
control. We offer proven material analysis,
515
00:47:24.320 --> 00:47:30.559
identification, and quantitation to ensure you
can develop battery products and confidence. Find
516
00:47:30.599 --> 00:47:37.400
out more at battery dot regatku dot
com. You've been listening to The Battery
517
00:47:37.480 --> 00:47:39.679
Lab, make sure you never miss
an episode by following the show on your
518
00:47:39.719 --> 00:47:44.599
favorite podcast player. Please give us
a rating, leave a comment, and
519
00:47:44.679 --> 00:47:49.519
share the episodes you love. That
helps us power more electrifying conversations and helps
520
00:47:49.599 --> 00:47:52.840
keep you current on the latest battery
research. We hope to see you again,
521
00:47:53.159 --> 00:47:54.679
charged and ready next time.
1
00:00:05.839 --> 00:00:10.320
You're listening to the Battery Lab from
Urgaku. The show for researchers, developers,
2
00:00:10.320 --> 00:00:14.480
and industry leaders looking to stay current
and straddle the cutting edge of battery
3
00:00:14.519 --> 00:00:19.320
advancement and analysis. Stay tuned for
another Electric conversation. Was one of the
4
00:00:19.399 --> 00:00:27.239
pioneers charging forward to fuel the future. Let's start the show. Welcome to
5
00:00:27.280 --> 00:00:30.839
the Battery Lab Podcast. I'm Tim
Brado, the host of the show.
6
00:00:31.559 --> 00:00:35.920
In each episode, we will offer
insights from industry experts and leading academics about
7
00:00:35.960 --> 00:00:42.479
cutting edge research and advancements in battery
technology and manufacturing. This is a place
8
00:00:42.520 --> 00:00:46.759
to learn about what's happening in the
industry today from a variety of viewpoints,
9
00:00:46.840 --> 00:00:54.000
including materials, choices and enhancements,
useful analytical tools and methods, manufacturing techniques,
10
00:00:54.439 --> 00:01:00.960
battery performance achievements, emerging sell architectures, and improvements in safe d We
11
00:01:00.000 --> 00:01:07.319
will also touch on business perspectives,
policy and market trends. Each podcast consists
12
00:01:07.319 --> 00:01:11.159
of a one on one interview with
an academic or industry expert with an interesting
13
00:01:11.239 --> 00:01:18.840
perspective to share. I hope you
will listen, learn and enjoy. We
14
00:01:18.879 --> 00:01:23.719
are here today with Dr Rohan Gokle. Dr Gokle is currently the Applied Technology
15
00:01:23.760 --> 00:01:30.040
Manager for rechargeable battery Materials at Umicor. Umicor is based in Auburn Hills,
16
00:01:30.079 --> 00:01:36.239
Michigan. Prior to joining Umicor,
Mr Gokle was a research scientist at Nissan
17
00:01:36.560 --> 00:01:41.920
Motor Corporation. In particular, he
was investigating and validating all solid state batteries
18
00:01:41.920 --> 00:01:47.799
to achieve next generation high energy,
fast charging and high safety electric vehicles.
19
00:01:48.560 --> 00:01:53.000
Dr Gokley has a pH d in
Materials Chemistry from the National Chemical Laboratory in
20
00:01:53.040 --> 00:01:59.159
Pune, India. Dr GOKLEI thanks
for joining me today. It's my pleasure,
21
00:01:59.200 --> 00:02:02.400
Tim, thanks a lot for inviting
me so, Dr Gokley, it
22
00:02:02.480 --> 00:02:06.480
truly is a pleasure to have you
here today. I'd like to start today
23
00:02:06.519 --> 00:02:10.000
with the discussion about the electric vehicle
market, being with one of the largest
24
00:02:10.000 --> 00:02:15.879
battery markets, are the largest battery
market potential out there. Can you tell
25
00:02:15.919 --> 00:02:21.039
me and our listeners about the types
of batteries that are in general use today
26
00:02:21.039 --> 00:02:25.800
in the EV market? Yeah?
Absolutely, Tim, So, the electric
27
00:02:25.879 --> 00:02:34.319
vehicle industry mainly uses lithium ion batteries. These are rechargeable batteries which are some
28
00:02:34.400 --> 00:02:38.800
of the best out of the different
types of batteries out there. They have
29
00:02:38.000 --> 00:02:43.560
a really good energy density, they
have a good cycle life, great power
30
00:02:44.719 --> 00:02:52.759
capability and uh these batteries also have
a low self discharge and no memory effects.
31
00:02:52.759 --> 00:02:58.599
So these solution this technology is like
a perfect fit for the electric vehicle
32
00:02:58.639 --> 00:03:02.319
industry. I mean, most of
us are quite aware that ah this technology
33
00:03:02.360 --> 00:03:08.560
won the Nobel Prize in and ever
since it's commercialization in the nineteen nineties and
34
00:03:08.639 --> 00:03:14.680
the decade following that, this was
used for the portable electronics industry. These
35
00:03:14.680 --> 00:03:21.680
were like small lithium ion cells that
were implemented for this industry for the wireless
36
00:03:21.719 --> 00:03:25.639
devices that we use, and till
today we see their widespread use in this
37
00:03:25.759 --> 00:03:31.639
industry. However, in the last
decade and some years before that, there
38
00:03:31.639 --> 00:03:38.120
has been a use of lithiumine cells
in the EV market for the electric vehicles.
39
00:03:38.199 --> 00:03:44.319
And the cells that are used for
the electric vehicles are different than the
40
00:03:44.319 --> 00:03:49.439
ones that were used earlier for the
portable electronics. So these cells are really
41
00:03:49.520 --> 00:03:54.039
large cells and they are have capacity
more than fifty or seventy m power.
42
00:03:54.280 --> 00:04:00.919
These are large lithium ion cells and
our ability to really incorporate these lithamne cells
43
00:04:01.560 --> 00:04:06.400
into the electric vehicle was because of
the manufacturing innovations that have been happening over
44
00:04:06.439 --> 00:04:13.719
the last decade and also the decrease
in cost of the lithium ion cells that
45
00:04:13.840 --> 00:04:18.160
have enabled us to really use them
for electric vehicles. Now, if you
46
00:04:18.199 --> 00:04:24.079
look at the components of a typical
lithamone battery, like any other battery,
47
00:04:24.120 --> 00:04:28.439
it has the cathode, it has
the anode, it has the electrolyte.
48
00:04:28.480 --> 00:04:31.560
So when you look at the cathode, which is the positive electrode, it
49
00:04:31.720 --> 00:04:39.639
is quated on an aluminum current collector
and the cathodes can usually be nickel,
50
00:04:39.720 --> 00:04:46.000
manganese, cobalt oxides, layered oxides, and also some olivine structure like lithamine
51
00:04:46.040 --> 00:04:53.839
phosphates which are commonly used as cathodes
and AH On the anode side, the
52
00:04:53.959 --> 00:04:59.920
material and materials coated on a copper
current collector, and traditionally graphite has been
53
00:05:00.079 --> 00:05:06.839
used as the I would in a
lithium cell, and uh you have a
54
00:05:06.879 --> 00:05:15.680
fluorinated lithuma assault dissolved in an organic
elect organic solvent as the electrolyte in between
55
00:05:15.000 --> 00:05:19.800
these two electrodes, which are which
is then these two electros are also separated
56
00:05:20.439 --> 00:05:28.000
using a separator to prevent any shorting. The components of the lithium ion cell
57
00:05:28.360 --> 00:05:34.680
together make the battery and then this
is then encased in two different form factors
58
00:05:35.040 --> 00:05:42.759
like prismatic pouch and cylindrical cells.
Now these form factors each have their own
59
00:05:42.800 --> 00:05:46.959
advantage and disadvantage. For example,
when you look at the cylindrical cell famously
60
00:05:47.079 --> 00:05:51.639
used by Tesla manufactured by Panasonic,
it has a very stable design. It
61
00:05:51.759 --> 00:05:58.439
is a very adaptable cell, but
not very space effective. And if you
62
00:05:58.480 --> 00:06:03.560
look at prismatic cell, this is
is more like a rectangular like a matchbox
63
00:06:03.759 --> 00:06:12.240
kind of encasing and is but it's
very space effective and widely used. It's
64
00:06:12.240 --> 00:06:16.519
probably the most popular form factor out
there and it provides higher energy density.
65
00:06:16.920 --> 00:06:25.680
Volkswagen popularly uses this this type of
form factor. And then when the other
66
00:06:25.759 --> 00:06:32.759
one is poud cell which is a
lightweight and flexible design is getting very popular
67
00:06:32.800 --> 00:06:43.839
nowadays and Nissan uses power cell.
So these individual cells are now assembled together
68
00:06:43.920 --> 00:06:48.519
in in in the module and this
different modules that then go on on the
69
00:06:48.560 --> 00:06:57.759
battery pack along with other auxiliary things
like the BMS or the cooling system and
70
00:06:57.800 --> 00:07:02.560
everything goes on the e v AT
form. So Brohan, you had mentioned
71
00:07:02.600 --> 00:07:13.000
earlier about the use of aluminum and
copper for the electrode foils. Um,
72
00:07:13.040 --> 00:07:16.360
what is the significance of using either
of those materials? Why are the cathodes
73
00:07:16.360 --> 00:07:23.720
who usually manufactured on aluminum foil and
the anodes are usually manufactured on a copper
74
00:07:23.759 --> 00:07:28.600
foil. But what's the significance of
the different metals in that case? Yes,
75
00:07:29.040 --> 00:07:34.079
so the aluminum and copper foils,
of course are very good conductors of
76
00:07:34.120 --> 00:07:44.000
electricity, and they're also low cost
metals which can be easily used in large
77
00:07:44.000 --> 00:07:49.040
scale manufacturing. But apart from that, the specific use of these two current
78
00:07:49.040 --> 00:07:57.079
collectors, specifically electrode is mainly because
of the potentials in play here. The
79
00:07:57.160 --> 00:08:03.360
cathode is at a higher potential and
uh the aluminum is generally stable at that
80
00:08:03.439 --> 00:08:09.439
potential, so the cathold is preferably
quoted on an aluminum file, whereas on
81
00:08:09.480 --> 00:08:13.839
the anolde side it's at lower potential
and aluminum is not that stable there,
82
00:08:13.959 --> 00:08:20.920
so copper is supposed to be more
stable at lower potential advice versa. Copper
83
00:08:20.959 --> 00:08:24.360
cannot be used at the cathode because
of dissolution and other effects, so the
84
00:08:24.519 --> 00:08:31.519
redox potential stability is an important factor
when we choose these current collectors. I
85
00:08:31.600 --> 00:08:35.639
see, thank you. So now
that we have an understanding of what types
86
00:08:35.679 --> 00:08:41.399
of batteries are being used for electric
vehicles, we talked about pouch and prismatic
87
00:08:41.480 --> 00:08:46.639
and cylindrical type cells. Um,
what do you see as challenges that exist
88
00:08:46.720 --> 00:08:50.679
today with these production scale EV batteries? In other words, what's out there
89
00:08:50.679 --> 00:08:54.879
in production right now? Nothing's perfect? Right, So if we had to
90
00:08:54.919 --> 00:08:58.039
poke holes in them and say,
here's the weaknesses of the current level of
91
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technology in these current generation of batteries, what would you what would you say,
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are some of the weaknesses you know
where we're at today? Yeah,
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so we have in the last decade, we have really achieved remarkable progress in
94
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terms of the advancement of lithium ion
cells. However, there are still a
95
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lot of challenges that need to be
overcome, and multiple efforts everywhere throughout the
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world are ongoing to solve these challenges. So, uh, I would say,
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if the first challenge that would come
to my mind is the capacity or
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the energy density of the cell of
the battery, and this is this is
99
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this directly relates to the range of
the ev AH and it is it is
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an accepted target that in order to
make EVS really widely accepted, at least
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every vehicle should have at least three
hundred miles of range on a single charge.
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Right so ah, and you can
clearly see the industry moving towards trying
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to increase the energy density of the
packs that go on the vehicle. So
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there have there is there are solutions
for this on every level. So starting
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from the chemistry level, you see
a push from all the cell manufacturers and
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o m s towards higher nickel rich
or high nickel chemistry. So nickel rich
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chemistry is preferred because nickel two plus
can be oxidized right away up to nickel
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four plus, so it gives you
a wide redox chemistry options available, so
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you have more energy within the cell
there and uh so that is one direction
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where you have increased the nickel in
the cathode. The other way to increase
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there is also work on the anode
side, where traditionally graphite was used,
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but there are other chemistry is like
silicon based anode that are being explored in
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order to really increase the energy density
of the cell. And then you are
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also having research on electrolytes which with
which can go up to high potentials.
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So when you go at higher potentials, UH, then you can have more
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energy coming out of a cell.
But and the electrolyte itself can be quite
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stable. So a lot of research
on chemistry is ongoing right now to solve
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these challenges. And when you go
to the cell design level, there are
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ways to increase the energy where you
can try to like try to pack a
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punch in that cell by compacting the
cathode to higher energies and then trying to
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lower the thicknesses of the anode as
much as possible in order to really enhance
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the energy density of the cell.
And UH, at the pack level,
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you see a lot of innovation happening
in the architectures where you can like architectures
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like cell to back instead of having
any modules, but you can say more
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space by directly integrating the cell to
the pack. And in some cases efforts
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are on going to integrate the cell
directly to the vehicle, so this will
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probably say on say space and you
can get more energy what our per leader
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energy density there. The the other
challenge I would say is rate capability is
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trying to achieve high capacity at faster
charge because I mean, when we go
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on a road trip, right,
we need we don't want to wait for
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ten minutes to charge the battery.
Yeah, well, I mean ten minutes
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will be a goal? Was that
like an hour right now? Right?
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So, and that that's unacceptable for
the average user exactly. I think you'd
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be okay at night, but not
when you're traveling. You know, on
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the go you need some factory charge, right. Absolutely. I think that
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is even more critical than range for
me. This aspect is you can you
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should be able to charge your vehicle
like say, ten minutes at the most
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and right now. The efforts in
that direction are also ongoing in terms of
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the chemistry and cell design as well, where you have high power batteries and
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high faster charging. The chemistries that
can enable faster charging as well, and
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then you have solutions at the system
level also for that which are being worked
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on. So that is another challenge
that needs to be addressed. The third
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I would say is UH longevity or
the cycle life of the cell. It
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has to when you when some when
anyone buys an electric vehicle, it has
145
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to go UH for a certain number
of years, and we should be able
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to use it as much as possible. That's our goal actually. So the
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general target given to the battery industry
is a thousand cycles, So if you
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have three miles on one cycle,
then it's like around three hundred thousand miles,
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right, you can go on a
thousand cycles at full full depth of
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discharge. So this is indeed a
challenging target, but ah, it's necessary
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right now. And so what happens
is when you look at the electrochemical device
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like a battery, right, there
are so many along with the lithium intercalation
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de intercalation reactions during the charge and
discharge, there are several other side reactions
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that are happening. So one is
like the formation of the solid electrolyte interface
155
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at the anode side. So you
have a species reacting on the surface on
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the anode and a resistive layer is
gradually increases within more number of cycles of
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the charge and discharge of the battery. Then you have the the lithium intercalation
158
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and the intercalation from the cathode.
You know, there is a change in
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the volume or uh of the cathodes, so there's a expansion contraction of the
160
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crystallites and in many cases this anisotropic
expansion and contraction causes crack formation and this
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can result in degradation of the electrode. So the other I mean, there
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are several other degradation mechanisms, like
even electrolyte can start decomposing, or there
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are gasing can happen, like you
have oxygen being liberated or formation of high
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HF within the system. So all
of these degradation mechanisms really give rise to
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higher resistance in the cell. And
with the more number of cycles, the
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resistance goes on increasing and this causes
the capacity to drop below which is which
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is probably the minimum acceptable level.
So yeah, the efforts right now on
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all friends are to increase the cycle
life as well. And very closely closely
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related to the cycle life is the
safety aspect. You've seen the news quite
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often, especially I mean recently after
the Hurricane Ian that happened in Florida.
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You see electric car fires and that's
quite challenging right now where you have we
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don't want the ev to catch fire, so we have to really meet those
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safety standards and make sure that the
materials or the chemistry inside is quite stable.
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And then for safety you also have
the role of the battery management system.
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The cooling system within the entire battery
pack as well, So that is
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that is also critical. In terms
of the other challenge I would say is
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very important is the cost, and
this is probably the most important for a
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widespread adoption of EVIS and a general
cost target for the IS EVIS to become
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really cost competitive with ice engine vehicles
is having the battery packs at less than
180
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hundred dollars per kilo. What our
right now we are probably at one fifty
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or some other I mean, it's
been changing recently quite a lot, but
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if you see it's it's way lower
than that bought it was a decade before,
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like almost ten times lower than that. But we still have to achieve
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the target. And now as we
come close to the target, it's becoming
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even more challenging to achieve that.
So uh well, then there's a lot
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more pressure on the resources, driving
the price up right exactly exactly, And
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so we have declining availability of lithium
because so many people are trying to use
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lithium all over the globe to make
e bikes, to make cell phones,
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to make electric vehicle batteries, I
mean lithium lithium lithium. Then pretty soon
190
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Huh, lithium supply gets shorter,
the price goes up right after. Instead
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of us being able to achieve cost
reduction, we're kind of forcing cost increases
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because of the high demand. So
yeah, it's an interesting economic challenge.
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The same thing happened with nickel,
right so, nickel was widely used for
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the stainless steel industry, and but
of course for the grade one nickel,
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which is which is what is used
high very high purity nickel that is used
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in the battery industry, and the
prices have been just skyrocketing right now.
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So it's all related to the increasing
increase in demand for batteries. And then
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it comes to our final final challenge, which is the raw material availability.
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Right like right now, it's a
it's not really very convenient each time where
200
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the minerals are found, so we
have to across global supply chains and it
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becomes challenging. For example, something
that happened right now with the war in
202
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Russia and Ukraine has really affected the
nickel supply chain as well. So uh
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so we have to find ways and
that's the focus of the U. S
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Government right now to relocalize the supply
chains and try to have production and raw
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material. Say refining, for example, is something that should happen locally.
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Right now, I think seventy percent
of refining is now in China, and
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that can become a big challenge for
the domestic supply chain. Absolutely. Yeah,
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So there's a variety of challenges.
They are ahead of us in terms
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of how do we further improve e
V battery performance and even consumer electronic battery
210
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performance. But consumer electronics are pretty
well established right now with accept a performance
211
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level. UM electric vehicles are still
struggling a bit in order to achieve that
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range, in order to achieve the
fast charging, to achieve the psycho life
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and all of that. There's just
so many challenges there. And we're dealing
214
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with chemistry's that don't behave like like
silicon right we Moore's law does not apply
215
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to batteries and technology, and I
always describe it as kind of a whack
216
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a mole problem. You know,
you solve one problem, you just created
217
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two more. So um, you
know. Anyway, So moving forward here,
218
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Yeah, so a lot of challenges
there is Is there any any one
219
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particular challenge there that concerns you the
most? You know, would it be
220
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the capacity achieving the capacity goals or
the fast charging goals. What do you
221
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think is the most elusive problem out
there to solve? Yeah, that's a
222
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that's a good question, actually,
I mean from my perspective, I think
223
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I'm sure there will be different opinions
on this, but from my perspective,
224
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we will definitely be able to solve
other problems, like the technical problems that
225
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I talked about, But I think
the most important one is to really have
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the sustainable sourcing of raw materials and
lowering the cost. So basically securing the
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supply chain and also lowering the cost
is critical for me. I mean,
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and it has to be also done
sustainably, right. The whole point of
229
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moving towards electric vehicles is to really
lower our carbon footprint, so we have
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to make sure that we achieve the
costs. At the same time, we
231
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are able to have a very low
two footprint in the materials that we source.
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So trying to get all these things
together is probably going to be our
233
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biggest challenge. Okay, that's great, Yeah, that's what I think.
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That's a great I mean, that's
a great perspective. You're you're basically saying,
235
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eventually we will resolve the technical issues, But solving the global supply of
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raw materials, that's kind of a
big issue to solve, right, So
237
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whether that we can do that remains
to be seen. One of the ways
238
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we do that is by designing different
cathodes, right. So right, today's
239
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as you were mentioning, today's cathodes
typically consist of NMC so nickel, manganese
240
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um, cobalt oxide. If we
get rid of the cobalt and we get
241
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rid of the nickel, we we
solve a lot of those global supply issues.
242
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Um. But then we have to
replace them with something else that works
243
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as good or better, And there
there's the challenge, right, But a
244
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lot of people are doing research on
that right now to reduce the percentage of
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cobalt or eliminated altogether. In the
near term, they're driving up the percentage
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of nickel or higher of the cathode
electrode um and uh, but eventually nicol's
247
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gonna have to get designed out,
you know, in order to keep driving
248
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down costs and reducing the demands on
limited supply chain. So yeah, it's
249
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uh, it's a challenge, especially
with the amount of demand um um for
250
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electric vehicles. Right some of that
demand is being Uh, you know,
251
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government pressures are are creating some of
that demand, but there's also a desire
252
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for it because let's face it,
when you have an electric vehicle with a
253
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good battery, it's amazing the amount
of acceleration, it's quiet, it's reliable.
254
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All that's good, um, as
long as it meets our other expectations
255
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and uh, and that's what we'll
be working on in the coming years.
256
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Yeah, it's a much much more
efficient technology. It's a cleaner engine,
257
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right, right, So there's a
lot there's a lot of goodness to come
258
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from this, absolutely, and we're
making great progress. And you know,
259
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we're already there for smaller electric because
I think are already in that range of
260
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acceptable performance and range and for certain
applications like you know, buses and service
261
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vehicles that are used during the day
and it can easily be charged every night,
262
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um, you know when they're off
duty. Great great application. Um.
263
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The challenges for us weekend warriors where
we want to hop in the car
264
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and drive around all weekend long,
and we're all in remote places where there's
265
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no charge stations, right that that's
that's the challenge, and that's where the
266
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range anxiety comes in. And I
mean, if you see, this is
267
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also dependent on the country where it's
being used. For example, the range
268
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that we really need in North America
is much more than what it's probably needed
269
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in China or Europe. So I
mean China right now, it is much
270
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wider adoption of evs right now,
But so the requirements will change from region
271
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to region as well. And that's
also always being considered when batteries are being
272
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designed for a particular market, right
right, all right, So kind of
273
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getting back to the technology here,
Um, if we look at the cathode
274
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in particular, what is the importance
of cathode material in the battery? What
275
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are the different types of cathodes and
advantages and disadvantages of different cathode materials.
276
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Yeah, that's a good, very
good question. Actually, So the cathode
277
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UH is probably the most important component
of the cell, mainly because it contributes
278
00:25:34.680 --> 00:25:42.960
to about the cost of the cell
um and it also has a significant impact
279
00:25:44.000 --> 00:25:51.079
on the energy or capacity of the
cell. AH. The most widely used
280
00:25:51.279 --> 00:25:56.160
cathode materials right now, I would
say, are nickel, manganiscobald and nickel,
281
00:25:56.440 --> 00:26:00.200
cobalt, aluminum and c A type
materials, which are most widely used,
282
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and the other one that is used
is the LFP them and phosphate and
283
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olivine structure. So h each has
again its own advantage and disadvantage, and
284
00:26:15.119 --> 00:26:22.519
depending on the application, a cell
manufacturer may choose to select either one of
285
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these cathodes or some other cathode.
Also, so when you look at the
286
00:26:27.319 --> 00:26:34.039
energy density aspect, then the nickel
based cathodes have layered oxides have clear advantage
287
00:26:34.079 --> 00:26:41.000
in terms of energy density H.
So in some in a place like North
288
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America, for example, I see
more application of NMC or n C A
289
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type materials here. And when you
look at the cycle life or safety,
290
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then LFP has the advantage because it
can go. It has much better thermal
291
00:26:56.720 --> 00:27:02.079
stability, and it can go are
many number psychles has come back to NMC.
292
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However, again then there might be
some differing opinions right now. Recently
293
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Jeff Dan has to bring that up. Jeff Don would definitely argue that and
294
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say, all you have to do
is lower the charge voltage on n MC
295
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and you will completely outperform LFP.
So, yeah, Jeff, as you
296
00:27:23.960 --> 00:27:29.680
were pointing out, Jeff Don recently
published uh well, did a talk at
297
00:27:29.839 --> 00:27:36.440
the two forty one ECS conference I
believe in Vancouver where he was talking about
298
00:27:36.519 --> 00:27:40.960
a million mile battery UM and or
a hundred year battery. And how does
299
00:27:41.000 --> 00:27:44.079
he achieve that, Well, you
know, they're they're on test cells right
300
00:27:44.119 --> 00:27:48.480
now. They're testing UM small little
test cells, so they're not large,
301
00:27:48.920 --> 00:27:52.920
full EV batteries yet. But at
the R and D level, he is
302
00:27:52.960 --> 00:27:59.480
demonstrating literally thousands of regards cycles with
very high energy densities, but he doesn't
303
00:27:59.519 --> 00:28:03.000
take advantag to all of it.
He reduces the charge voltage, so he's
304
00:28:03.039 --> 00:28:08.079
giving up some energy density, but
he's achieving far more stable performance UM over
305
00:28:08.160 --> 00:28:14.720
thousands of cycles with almost negligible degradation. I mean, he's predicting he's going
306
00:28:14.720 --> 00:28:17.079
to you know, it takes years
and years and years to prove it.
307
00:28:17.759 --> 00:28:21.960
You can only test so many cycles
per year, and he's already three years
308
00:28:21.960 --> 00:28:26.400
in. But in another three years, another seven years, he's going to
309
00:28:26.480 --> 00:28:29.680
have some amazing data to share with
the world UM. And one of the
310
00:28:29.680 --> 00:28:33.160
ways he's achieving that that he's speaking
about publicly is by simply reducing the charge
311
00:28:33.200 --> 00:28:38.799
voltage, and that has an amazing
impact, so that that emphasizes the importance
312
00:28:38.839 --> 00:28:44.119
of having a material, a catholic
material like NMC, which has that higher
313
00:28:44.519 --> 00:28:48.720
charge potential capability, right, because
then you can give up some you can
314
00:28:48.720 --> 00:28:52.920
actually then not take advantage of all
of it and therefore increase the longevity and
315
00:28:52.960 --> 00:28:56.599
the cycle life of that material.
Absolutely, Yeah, absolutely, And Jef
316
00:28:56.680 --> 00:29:00.920
Done is a big fan of NMC
and trying to lower its supper cutoff voltage
317
00:29:00.960 --> 00:29:06.079
and and that data is really good. So yeah, I mean again,
318
00:29:07.440 --> 00:29:10.839
uh, I also had asked him
this question that would do we really need
319
00:29:10.880 --> 00:29:17.519
to go beyond push these boundaries of
high nickel going about? So, I
320
00:29:17.559 --> 00:29:21.680
mean, he seems to believe like
in terms of solving if we're really interested
321
00:29:21.680 --> 00:29:25.839
in solving global warming, we should
look at medium nickel chemistry or maybe even
322
00:29:25.880 --> 00:29:29.519
like eight one one chemistry. But
we just lower the upper cut off voltage
323
00:29:29.559 --> 00:29:33.880
and you can make the battery cycle
for much longer and even more longer than
324
00:29:33.920 --> 00:29:37.000
a lef P. So, right, just a quart of a couple of
325
00:29:37.000 --> 00:29:44.559
things you just mentioned there. Eight
one one mnc mc means nickel and ten
326
00:29:44.640 --> 00:29:48.720
percent manganese and ten percent cobal.
So we're reducing the cobal, driving up
327
00:29:48.759 --> 00:29:52.799
the percentage of nickel, and uh, we're getting really good results absolutely in
328
00:29:52.880 --> 00:29:56.880
terms of energy density and psycho life. So yeah, and I also wanted
329
00:29:56.880 --> 00:30:03.480
to mention that Professor Jeff Don is
at the Universe of Dollhousie University in Nova
330
00:30:03.480 --> 00:30:07.440
Scotia, Canada. Um. All
right, so all right, so that
331
00:30:07.519 --> 00:30:11.920
was a great discussion about technology,
Thank you very much. So we we've
332
00:30:11.920 --> 00:30:18.039
talked about where we're at today.
We've uh with with technology, We've talked
333
00:30:18.039 --> 00:30:22.519
about sort of the state of the
industry. UM, let's look do some
334
00:30:22.640 --> 00:30:26.039
forward looking here. What trends do
you see in the e V battery technology
335
00:30:26.079 --> 00:30:32.000
market um or other like consumer electronic
markets or whatever. But in general,
336
00:30:32.720 --> 00:30:36.039
um, you know, what are
the trends. What are some of the
337
00:30:36.079 --> 00:30:45.519
most exciting material and or architectural changes
that you're seeing in the e V industry?
338
00:30:45.880 --> 00:30:48.720
Yeah, so, I mean it's
a very exciting time to be bactory
339
00:30:48.720 --> 00:30:55.200
scientists. Actually. So, I
mean you see several novations happening. And
340
00:30:56.039 --> 00:31:00.200
I mean when you look at the
conventional lithia mine batory chnology with the liquid
341
00:31:00.200 --> 00:31:07.559
electrolyte, there are there is incremental
improvement happening there. However, if you
342
00:31:07.880 --> 00:31:12.039
if we are looking for step change
improvement or step up improvement, there ah.
343
00:31:12.440 --> 00:31:17.279
You may have heard of the all
solid state battery, which is which
344
00:31:17.319 --> 00:31:22.000
is shows a lot of promise in
the coming decade. So the solid state
345
00:31:22.039 --> 00:31:27.160
battery basically uh, instead of using
is A is a lithium ion battery,
346
00:31:27.200 --> 00:31:33.480
but it does not use a liquid
electrolyte. It uses a solid electrolyte like
347
00:31:33.519 --> 00:31:42.119
a sulfide or polymer or an oxide
electrolyte. And it unlocks our ability to
348
00:31:42.240 --> 00:31:48.039
use lithium anode and lithiumatal as an
anode. So we can increase the energy
349
00:31:48.079 --> 00:31:53.240
density from right now which is about
two fifty what our per kg or five
350
00:31:55.160 --> 00:31:57.519
leaders, so we can actually take
it to five hundred what our per kg
351
00:31:57.799 --> 00:32:04.759
or thousand what are lead kind of
range. So uh, it also helps
352
00:32:04.880 --> 00:32:12.279
us overcome this problem of fast charging. It can give us we can achieve
353
00:32:12.359 --> 00:32:19.559
higher power there. Ah. And
the the other thing that the solid shade
354
00:32:19.559 --> 00:32:24.839
batteries it does not really need a
cooling system because it does not have these
355
00:32:24.839 --> 00:32:32.400
flammable organic electro lights. So AH, once we eliminate the use of the
356
00:32:32.440 --> 00:32:37.960
cooling systems in the battery pack,
then you have a lot more space,
357
00:32:37.000 --> 00:32:43.640
so we can definitely increase the energy
density of the battery. On the vehicle.
358
00:32:43.720 --> 00:32:49.079
So UH, if we are able
to really make these solid shade batteries
359
00:32:49.400 --> 00:32:52.799
in the large scale for an eavy
market, then that would be a big
360
00:32:52.440 --> 00:32:57.039
improvement in terms of what we can
achieve from now. Of course, there
361
00:32:57.039 --> 00:33:00.240
are a lot of challenges that have
to be overcome for the solid shade battery,
362
00:33:00.279 --> 00:33:06.359
but towards the end of the decade, solid shade batteries would be an
363
00:33:06.359 --> 00:33:13.519
important part of the earlitha mine battery
market. The the other technology I would
364
00:33:13.519 --> 00:33:19.000
say is the emergence of the manganese
rich chemistry in on the cathode side for
365
00:33:19.079 --> 00:33:23.680
the conventional batteries UM. So with
the manganese rich chemistry you can get much
366
00:33:23.759 --> 00:33:29.920
higher energy density uh. And of
course it is coupled with research on electrolytes
367
00:33:29.960 --> 00:33:35.039
which can sustain a much wider electroc
the voltage window. And the manganese rich
368
00:33:35.119 --> 00:33:40.599
chemistry where is also is not very
expensive. So because manganese is the dominant
369
00:33:42.039 --> 00:33:45.680
element there which is and you have
lower amounts of nickel and cobalt, so
370
00:33:46.279 --> 00:33:51.519
we can achieve higher energy density at
the same time have lower costs, so
371
00:33:52.839 --> 00:33:59.920
costs are even actually better than LFP. So ah multiple I would say targets
372
00:34:00.000 --> 00:34:04.039
and be achieved with manganese rich chemistry
on the cathode side. But again there
373
00:34:04.079 --> 00:34:09.559
are some challenges that have to be
addressed where there's a voltage fade that happens
374
00:34:09.559 --> 00:34:16.920
with this, and cell manufacturers are
actively trying to solve these problems along with
375
00:34:16.960 --> 00:34:22.880
the material manufacturers. So the other
material I would say is uh, silicon
376
00:34:23.199 --> 00:34:30.239
anodes that is being Yeah, right
now it's used for portable electronics, but
377
00:34:30.599 --> 00:34:34.599
not for much for the EV market. But we might see adoption of silicon
378
00:34:34.639 --> 00:34:38.840
anode chemistry for evs in the next
decade, so that could be an exciting
379
00:34:38.840 --> 00:34:44.079
thing coming up. And Uh,
this this was in terms of the chemistry,
380
00:34:44.079 --> 00:34:49.960
but if you look at other aspects
like improvements in the system level,
381
00:34:51.360 --> 00:34:54.079
there are different cell architectures that are
coming up. Recently, there was an
382
00:34:54.079 --> 00:35:00.800
announcement by LG on the incorporation of
cell to pack chemistry cell to back architecture
383
00:35:00.880 --> 00:35:07.280
for he nickel, which was which
was not easy to do. So this
384
00:35:07.360 --> 00:35:13.719
type of innovations will come come soon
which will help us achieve that try to
385
00:35:14.119 --> 00:35:17.800
solve some of these problems that we
face. And in the long term you
386
00:35:17.880 --> 00:35:25.199
see emergence of other battery chemistries like
sodium mind battery or even some exotic cathodes
387
00:35:25.280 --> 00:35:31.000
like disordered rock salts and that kind
of system. So we will see.
388
00:35:31.119 --> 00:35:37.920
But you know, it's definitely an
exciting time and we're going to see different
389
00:35:37.920 --> 00:35:42.039
designs, different materials going forward in
the after seven years. Yeah, I
390
00:35:42.079 --> 00:35:45.199
mean, it is pretty exciting the
potential that's out there. Um, it
391
00:35:45.239 --> 00:35:51.440
seems like it's almost like the semi
connector industry was ten years ago. People
392
00:35:51.519 --> 00:35:54.159
started to think that we were reaching
the limit of More's law, but then
393
00:35:54.599 --> 00:35:58.719
researchers found a way to push through
it. You know, it looked like
394
00:35:58.760 --> 00:36:01.360
he was bleak, like there's just
no way we can make these transistors any
395
00:36:01.440 --> 00:36:07.880
smaller, but they did and they
continue to do so. And obviously similar
396
00:36:07.920 --> 00:36:12.960
things are going to happen here in
the battery industry, where despite how challenging
397
00:36:13.199 --> 00:36:17.280
some of these issues appear to be, with with all of the research globally,
398
00:36:17.519 --> 00:36:22.480
all the investment going into battery technology, we will find ways around some
399
00:36:22.519 --> 00:36:25.960
of these challenges. It may not
be as easy um as in the semi
400
00:36:25.960 --> 00:36:30.880
connector industry, but um, but
there will be advancements, There will be
401
00:36:30.920 --> 00:36:36.840
improvements, and and we all can
look forward to the type of e V
402
00:36:37.000 --> 00:36:42.559
battery that would we would really enjoy
owning, right And and that's that's the
403
00:36:42.559 --> 00:36:45.119
goal is to be to be excited
about buying that e V car, to
404
00:36:45.280 --> 00:36:49.599
have it a big party of your
life. Not only in terms of transportation,
405
00:36:49.760 --> 00:36:52.239
it could also be used um.
You know what do they call that
406
00:36:54.320 --> 00:37:00.239
vehicle to grid where you connect your
your your pickup truck in your drive way
407
00:37:00.400 --> 00:37:07.960
to the grid and and the electrical
company is is reimbursing you for the ability
408
00:37:08.039 --> 00:37:13.239
to um. You know, either
either you charge your electric vehicle through a
409
00:37:13.239 --> 00:37:17.559
solar panel and and sell it back
to the utility company, or they charge
410
00:37:17.599 --> 00:37:23.840
you overnight at a low cost.
I mean, there's you know, there's
411
00:37:23.840 --> 00:37:29.920
just so much you can do it. It becomes a grid of distributed energy
412
00:37:29.960 --> 00:37:34.760
storage devices and everyone's driveway and everyone's
garage, um and so that the utility
413
00:37:34.760 --> 00:37:39.599
companies don't have to build all this
battery capacity to to make up for the
414
00:37:39.679 --> 00:37:43.719
lack of renewable energy, you know, when the wind doesn't blow and the
415
00:37:43.800 --> 00:37:47.320
sun isn't shining and things like that. So it's it's it's a it's a
416
00:37:47.320 --> 00:37:52.840
lofty goal, but it's very impressive
to what it could mean to society and
417
00:37:52.920 --> 00:37:58.679
to the challenge challenges. Yeah,
I mean I completely agree with that because,
418
00:37:59.280 --> 00:38:01.840
uh I mean, the market is
going to be like beyond two terra
419
00:38:01.960 --> 00:38:06.840
what our for example, for at
towards the end of the decade, and
420
00:38:07.039 --> 00:38:10.519
there's just simply a lot of efforts
going on, a lot of investment.
421
00:38:10.719 --> 00:38:15.440
I'm sure we are going to find
ways to solve these problems and I'm very
422
00:38:15.519 --> 00:38:22.079
optimistic about that. So moving beyond
technology, now, let's talk about your
423
00:38:22.159 --> 00:38:28.800
particular company, you mc war um. How would you describe umicors participation and
424
00:38:28.920 --> 00:38:35.840
position within the e V battery value
chain? Yes, so, Umicore is
425
00:38:36.360 --> 00:38:43.719
what we term ourselves as a circular
materials technology company and we are a global
426
00:38:43.800 --> 00:38:49.039
leader in cathode materials mainly nicole maganis
COO ball to an m C oxide kind
427
00:38:49.039 --> 00:38:54.559
of materials. And the part of
the value chain where Umicore is involved is
428
00:38:55.480 --> 00:39:00.679
obtaining raw materials from the miners.
We are oursels are not involved in mining.
429
00:39:01.320 --> 00:39:06.639
The Umicore has a history of expertise
in mining and was a mining company
430
00:39:06.639 --> 00:39:10.039
in the past, but we moved
away from that and uh so we obtain
431
00:39:10.119 --> 00:39:17.199
these raw materials from the mining companies
and then do refining at different locations across
432
00:39:17.239 --> 00:39:23.599
the world. And after refining,
then the the we are involved in making
433
00:39:23.599 --> 00:39:31.559
the precursors for the cathode materials from
these refined products products. And then after
434
00:39:31.639 --> 00:39:36.920
we make the precursor of the cathodes, the precursors are then transferred to the
435
00:39:36.920 --> 00:39:45.360
catholic material production plant and then a
final n m C powder is is manufactured.
436
00:39:45.440 --> 00:39:52.440
So overall we make like we're a
chemical company manufacturing catholic powders. And
437
00:39:52.480 --> 00:40:00.320
then we supply these materials to battery
manufacturers or o M s whoever is going
438
00:40:00.360 --> 00:40:06.920
to manufacture these cells. And so
this is the part where we are involved
439
00:40:06.960 --> 00:40:09.960
in. And the other most important
part that we are also involved in involved
440
00:40:10.000 --> 00:40:15.320
in is recycling. So we take
the end of life batteries and then we
441
00:40:15.400 --> 00:40:21.400
have we recycled back into the base
metals and start all over again in terms
442
00:40:21.440 --> 00:40:25.800
of the cathold manufacturing process. Okay, see your company actually does the recycling
443
00:40:25.840 --> 00:40:30.320
process. Yes, okay, all
right, because I know there's a lot
444
00:40:30.360 --> 00:40:34.400
of other companies and startup companies that
are looking to do battery recycling, but
445
00:40:34.480 --> 00:40:37.920
in your case, you do that
as well. Interesting, all right,
446
00:40:37.280 --> 00:40:40.440
So, Dr Gokley, can can
you describe for us the type of work
447
00:40:40.480 --> 00:40:46.159
you're currently doing at umcore and how
you see this potentially impacting the EV industry.
448
00:40:49.119 --> 00:40:53.119
Yeah. So, I'm the Applied
Technology Manager for umicore in North America.
449
00:40:53.880 --> 00:41:00.920
My role is to connect with cell
manufacturers and o ms, evaluate different
450
00:41:00.920 --> 00:41:08.199
technologies, also support with support existing
customers, and provide technical solutions and kind
451
00:41:08.239 --> 00:41:14.880
of act like a bridge between Umico
R and Y and customer technical teams in
452
00:41:14.960 --> 00:41:21.400
order to make sure that our materials
are successful in this battery design. So
453
00:41:22.599 --> 00:41:29.719
I also support business development activities in
North America. So about how I see
454
00:41:29.760 --> 00:41:34.920
myself and my role is like trying
to build bridges within the battery ecosystem and
455
00:41:35.719 --> 00:41:40.639
accelerating the electrification transition. So uh
yeah, that that that is I think
456
00:41:42.039 --> 00:41:46.400
very important for this time. Great, thank you, thank you. Yeah,
457
00:41:46.480 --> 00:41:49.920
I'm gonna you know, I had
a few other questions I was going
458
00:41:49.960 --> 00:41:52.000
to ask you, but I think
we've already addressed that. Um So I'm
459
00:41:52.000 --> 00:41:58.679
gonna move on here and let's talk
about analytics. Can you talk about what
460
00:41:58.800 --> 00:42:02.760
kind of material and analysis is currently
used to evaluate the quality and consistency of
461
00:42:02.800 --> 00:42:15.079
these electrode materials and how this is
measured. So at Unicode we definitely use
462
00:42:16.159 --> 00:42:23.159
most of the advanced characterization techniques in
order to make sure that our Catherine material
463
00:42:23.400 --> 00:42:29.599
is up to the standard for making
the cells, and Humicode is very well
464
00:42:29.679 --> 00:42:35.280
known for the quality of the product
in the market. So if you look
465
00:42:35.280 --> 00:42:40.199
at, for example, when we'll
have the final NMC powder, then if
466
00:42:40.199 --> 00:42:45.199
we do the x r D to
determine the crystallinity of the material whether it
467
00:42:45.280 --> 00:42:51.239
is single crystalline de poly crystalline materials, and then we also look at the
468
00:42:51.360 --> 00:42:59.599
particle size distribution of these materials using
the particle size analyzers, then we have
469
00:43:00.440 --> 00:43:06.920
all the techniques like XPS where we
study the surface of the materials AH we
470
00:43:07.000 --> 00:43:10.480
do I c P in order to
make sure we have achieved the targeted composition
471
00:43:10.800 --> 00:43:17.159
of elements within our cathode material,
and we also find out the surface impurities
472
00:43:17.440 --> 00:43:23.239
if it is within acceptable levels.
So in addition to that we have also
473
00:43:24.000 --> 00:43:34.280
we also routinely analyze using scanning electron
microscopy or transmission electron microscopy studies. And
474
00:43:34.840 --> 00:43:37.880
these are the general These are some
of the general characterizations that we do for
475
00:43:38.360 --> 00:43:47.039
our materials, but we also actively
collaborate with universities to do advanced characterization of
476
00:43:47.440 --> 00:43:52.000
our materials and try to improve where
we can. So we have several research
477
00:43:52.039 --> 00:43:59.960
projects within with UH, with you, with say startup companies or with university
478
00:44:00.039 --> 00:44:04.440
days where we engage in improving all
product as much as possible. You know,
479
00:44:04.559 --> 00:44:07.840
Really, partnerships are really important.
I've been involved personally with partnerships so
480
00:44:08.000 --> 00:44:13.440
most of my career, and it's
it's the way to get things done right.
481
00:44:13.679 --> 00:44:17.800
It's it's too difficult to solve some
of these challenges by individual people,
482
00:44:17.920 --> 00:44:22.760
individual companies, But when you start
to form alliances, strate teaching, partnerships,
483
00:44:23.400 --> 00:44:30.079
um, suddenly some of these big
mountainous type problems can be can be
484
00:44:30.159 --> 00:44:34.480
resolved. So so, Rohan,
do you have thoughts about the future of
485
00:44:34.519 --> 00:44:37.400
the E D battery industry and where
we might be in ten plus years.
486
00:44:38.000 --> 00:44:45.280
For example, will we see significant
battery performance improvement after the current advanced materials
487
00:44:45.280 --> 00:44:50.079
are explored or do you think we
are already seeing the limits of available battery
488
00:44:50.119 --> 00:44:59.119
chemistries and are limited to incremental improvements
going forward. Yeah, I'm very optimistic
489
00:44:59.239 --> 00:45:06.840
in general about out the industry at
this time, and in general I would
490
00:45:07.320 --> 00:45:13.119
definitely expect much wider adoption of electric
vehicles going forward in the next day and
491
00:45:13.159 --> 00:45:16.760
or twenty years. And of course
you see a drive by different governments where
492
00:45:16.800 --> 00:45:23.360
you are. They they see a
target of about fifty electrification. I mean,
493
00:45:23.400 --> 00:45:28.440
even if we don't really reach that
target, but I'm sure it's going
494
00:45:28.480 --> 00:45:34.719
to be a big numbers are going
to be used by many people, and
495
00:45:34.760 --> 00:45:39.239
I would see a much deeper market
penetration. And this will happen in the
496
00:45:39.719 --> 00:45:45.719
high performance segment, the premium segment, as well as the low cost economic
497
00:45:45.320 --> 00:45:51.559
segment of automotive industry as well.
So I think when you look at the
498
00:45:51.599 --> 00:45:54.880
incremental changes that those will continue to
happen in the conventional lithium mind battery,
499
00:45:57.199 --> 00:46:01.920
so this will also serve as specific
market. But I also expect much more
500
00:46:02.000 --> 00:46:08.199
to step up changes when we when
we see these latest technologies that we talked
501
00:46:08.239 --> 00:46:15.639
about. These technologies will soon become
mainstream in the next ten or twenty years
502
00:46:15.719 --> 00:46:22.280
and this will give will help us
cover the technical gap that exists today and
503
00:46:22.320 --> 00:46:27.159
there would be huge improvements in the
performance of the leaky mindselles going forward.
504
00:46:27.239 --> 00:46:34.280
So I definitely see a very exciting
future for this field. And there's going
505
00:46:34.320 --> 00:46:38.920
to be a huge transformation or in
the automotive industry in this in the next
506
00:46:39.840 --> 00:46:45.400
in the next decades. So it's
a very exciting time. All right,
507
00:46:45.480 --> 00:46:47.559
Well, I think that will need
to be the final word for this episode.
508
00:46:47.920 --> 00:46:51.599
Dr Goakley, thank you so much
for joining me today. That was
509
00:46:51.599 --> 00:46:54.519
a very interesting and insightful discussion.
Thank you so much, and to our
510
00:46:54.559 --> 00:46:59.400
listeners, thanks for joining today.
We hope this discussion has been informative and
511
00:46:59.480 --> 00:47:02.440
valuable to you. Please make sure
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512
00:47:02.440 --> 00:47:13.880
of The Battery Lab. We all
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513
00:47:13.920 --> 00:47:17.840
future. That's why here at Regoku, we're helping to power tomorrow through advanced
514
00:47:17.880 --> 00:47:24.079
analytical technology for battery research and quality
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515
00:47:24.320 --> 00:47:30.559
identification, and quantitation to ensure you
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516
00:47:30.599 --> 00:47:37.400
out more at battery dot regatku dot
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517
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