The Problem Isn’t Suffering, It’s Your Relationship to It w/ Tim Desmond

WEBVTT
00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:05.570
If what you're trying to do is create a world with less suffering, one thing that you absolutely need to do is learn how to suffer less.
00:00:05.669 --> 00:00:06.629
The way that you're framing it.
00:00:06.629 --> 00:00:10.919
That's not often what I hear when I talk to Buddhist thought philosophies.
00:00:10.919 --> 00:00:13.800
But tell me more about how you impact the world
00:00:13.980 --> 00:00:14.308
Today.
00:00:14.308 --> 00:00:20.820
We have Tim Desmond, whose journey runs from political activism to Buddhist retreat centers to the therapy room.
00:00:21.030 --> 00:00:23.009
The very first teaching that Buddhist ever gave.
00:00:23.009 --> 00:00:25.289
Number one, everybody suffers.
00:00:25.469 --> 00:00:27.474
Number two, suffering has causes.
00:00:28.265 --> 00:00:30.844
Number three, liberation is possible.
00:00:30.995 --> 00:00:36.424
One of the things that always turned me off at Buddhism is the idea of self-acceptance.
00:00:36.424 --> 00:00:41.465
As this very settling into where you are, version of accepting your situation,
00:00:41.494 --> 00:00:45.604
your mind has evolved to always be like, this isn't what I want.
00:00:45.604 --> 00:00:46.085
I want that.
00:00:46.234 --> 00:00:54.814
The idea of self-acceptance ultimately comes down to recognizing your mind's gonna do it, but not letting that convince you that.
00:00:54.899 --> 00:00:58.619
Happiness and freedom are not available to you in this moment.
00:00:58.710 --> 00:01:05.879
My understanding is that is not a complete or even beginning to really understand the self-acceptance that Buddhist tend to bring to the table.
00:01:06.060 --> 00:01:09.840
For me, with Buddhism, whatever teaching you're looking at, it's like why?
00:01:10.109 --> 00:01:11.009
Like why do you care?
00:01:11.129 --> 00:01:12.478
It's connecting with the need.
00:01:12.539 --> 00:01:13.829
Just answer yourself.
00:01:13.920 --> 00:01:18.030
Are you doing it 'cause you have to, or are you a free person making your choice?
00:01:19.064 --> 00:01:23.385
One tool that you wish more people had, what would that tool be?
00:01:23.564 --> 00:01:26.625
Uh, I mean just,
00:01:30.135 --> 00:01:31.424
Hey Tim, man, thanks so much for coming on.
00:01:32.055 --> 00:01:32.715
Yeah, no problem.
00:01:32.715 --> 00:01:33.165
Happy to be here.
00:01:33.165 --> 00:01:33.194
I.
00:01:34.500 --> 00:01:41.609
So I was excited by our conversation and the pre-interview and a little bit before this to talk about different ways that mindfulness practice comes in for people.
00:01:41.879 --> 00:01:44.459
What uniquely qualifies you to have that conversation?
00:01:44.459 --> 00:01:45.599
For our listeners that don't know you,
00:01:45.719 --> 00:01:48.359
I guess I, I could tell sort of like a bigger story.
00:01:48.599 --> 00:01:53.219
I, I got introduced to Buddhist practices, um, and undergrad.
00:01:53.909 --> 00:02:04.019
I was really interested in social change, um, and like kind of trying to understand, um, as much as I could about that.
00:02:04.019 --> 00:02:09.300
And I was introduced to the teachings of Han the Vietnamese and master.
00:02:09.710 --> 00:02:12.590
By in a political science class on peace studies,
00:02:12.859 --> 00:02:14.629
that is a unique way to come to Buddhism.
00:02:14.990 --> 00:02:25.550
Yeah, so when I, when I read, when I read the book, when I read Tek Han's writings, what I found was a perspective that I wasn't getting anywhere else, which was Bo.
00:02:25.579 --> 00:02:31.849
Most of the people that I knew that were trying to make the world better, were doing it very much from a perspective of sacrifice.
00:02:32.189 --> 00:02:42.118
That was kind of the idea of like, we're, we're trying to make the world better so we're given, so we're sort of like giving up what's good for ourselves to be of service to the world.
00:02:42.868 --> 00:02:52.500
And Han was like, if what you're trying to do is create a world with less suffering, one thing that you absolutely need to do is learn how to suffer less.
00:02:53.414 --> 00:03:01.935
If you want a, a world with more happiness and more freedom, then you need to understand how to be happy and free.
00:03:02.984 --> 00:03:07.334
And that just clicked for me in a fuck, in a deep, deep way.
00:03:08.054 --> 00:03:15.403
And I, as 19 year olds do sometimes with that, that get really, um, that, you know, find something that makes sense to them.
00:03:15.704 --> 00:03:18.884
I just dove in and I spent.
00:03:19.889 --> 00:03:26.639
Really up until Tek Nhan had his stroke, um, a handful of years ago in, um, I guess like 2015.
00:03:27.118 --> 00:03:33.209
Um, spent as much time as I could, so on retreat with him or traveling with him going from place to place.
00:03:33.419 --> 00:03:37.289
I would actually often spend, uh, a couple months on retreat.
00:03:38.534 --> 00:03:45.164
Han and then from there go to whatever sort of political organizing kind of stuff I was doing.
00:03:45.465 --> 00:03:47.264
And then when that was over, I would go back
00:03:47.354 --> 00:03:49.905
and I didn't realize about the, the political connection.
00:03:49.905 --> 00:03:54.734
So when did you make the jump from doing act, the more activist things to therapist?
00:03:54.914 --> 00:03:59.099
Yeah, so, um, it was actually while I was on retreat with Take Mahan.
00:03:59.894 --> 00:04:07.995
Um, I was living at Deer Park Monastery, uh, which is a monastery it outside San Diego, California.
00:04:08.354 --> 00:04:23.084
Um, Han was there giving a three month retreat and basically I decided I didn't want to become a monk, um, that I thought about the rest of my life and that I wanted to have a family.
00:04:24.764 --> 00:04:34.725
So I'm like, okay, so what am I gonna do if to make money if I'm not gonna become a monk and decided I could get involved in like nonprofit kind of work.
00:04:34.725 --> 00:04:37.814
I could get involved in political organizing, but that's going to eat my whole life.
00:04:38.774 --> 00:04:50.115
Um, I could also get involved in mental health, which was like, it felt like an extension of my Buddhist practice, and I could probably have a more balanced life that way and I could stay involved.
00:04:50.564 --> 00:04:54.464
In political organizing and, and, and sort of social change stuff.
00:04:54.824 --> 00:04:55.754
Wow.
00:04:55.785 --> 00:04:58.095
But, but have like a more balanced life.
00:04:58.185 --> 00:05:04.394
So I, I went to graduate school, got my, uh, degree in clinical psych and kind of took it from there.
00:05:04.394 --> 00:05:07.214
But definitely I think most people that I know that.
00:05:07.800 --> 00:05:10.889
Are interested in the sort of mindfulness and psychology realm.
00:05:10.920 --> 00:05:14.968
They get a degree in psychology and then they get introduced to meditation that way.
00:05:15.060 --> 00:05:16.529
For me, it was very much the reverse.
00:05:16.529 --> 00:05:19.920
It was just like living and breathing Buddhist practice.
00:05:19.949 --> 00:05:29.069
And then I'm like, well, what's the closest thing to a job that, um, that would allow me to mainly just be focused on my practice or sharing my practice?
00:05:29.189 --> 00:05:29.279
Yeah.
00:05:29.279 --> 00:05:32.519
I've only got one other colleague that was like a yogi before.
00:05:32.834 --> 00:05:41.894
Becoming a therapist and it, it was lovely coming up with her because of the perspective pushing on some of the Western therapy ideas.
00:05:41.894 --> 00:05:43.574
It was nice to have some friction with.
00:05:44.564 --> 00:05:44.745
Right.
00:05:44.745 --> 00:05:48.194
Just to learn, you know, if you can't compare, you can't.
00:05:48.735 --> 00:05:49.875
Consider yourself good at something.
00:05:50.084 --> 00:05:56.055
And you've now been doing both of these things for a few decades, if I'm remembering right.
00:05:56.175 --> 00:05:59.115
I didn't realize, but I started seeing clients about 20 years ago.
00:06:00.134 --> 00:06:00.464
Um,
00:06:01.064 --> 00:06:03.045
so just settling in, you know, getting,
00:06:03.045 --> 00:06:04.264
yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:06:04.264 --> 00:06:10.394
Um, which, you know, it's funny because the empirical, the data that we have is the therapists.
00:06:10.805 --> 00:06:15.785
Often their, um, efficacy can go down the longer you're in the field.
00:06:15.845 --> 00:06:18.514
And so I'm hoping that's not, uh, true for me.
00:06:18.514 --> 00:06:26.194
But I guess it's the, a lot of people talk about it in terms of enthusiasm that the longer we're in the field, the more we kind of feel like we've seen everything.
00:06:26.194 --> 00:06:28.714
And, and it's like, like a harder to feel like.
00:06:29.168 --> 00:06:34.060
Genuinely interested in like this specific person and their specific story.
00:06:34.060 --> 00:06:49.750
And so I feel like that's, um, yeah, that I, I find that interesting and, and, and definitely like a challenge and definitely sort of like a way of, of, um, it's not true for everybody, but I definitely want to be like, one of the ones that isn't burned out is, continues to be interested in people.
00:06:49.928 --> 00:06:55.750
Because for me, all the different ways that a human mind can show up, it kind of fascinating.
00:06:55.870 --> 00:06:55.988
Yeah.
00:06:55.988 --> 00:06:57.488
The ones that I see.
00:06:58.185 --> 00:06:59.295
Do well later in their career.
00:06:59.295 --> 00:07:06.615
'cause I got exposed pretty early Colorado, changed some licensing stuff and all of a sudden these 20 year clinicians had to go back and get credentialed for addictions work.
00:07:07.365 --> 00:07:09.555
And at the time I was teaching the addictions classes.
00:07:09.944 --> 00:07:17.774
And so I got to see the length and breadth of like, you know, 20 or 30 different 20 year clinicians and their thoughts and how they showed up.
00:07:18.524 --> 00:07:23.355
And what I find is those of us who teach tend to hold our edge a little bit better.
00:07:24.675 --> 00:07:26.685
And there's also just a.
00:07:27.420 --> 00:07:31.050
You can kind of tell when you're talking to somebody if it's still something they still wanna get better at.
00:07:31.139 --> 00:07:33.269
I like that you also come from that political activist background.
00:07:33.269 --> 00:07:34.110
That was mine as well.
00:07:34.110 --> 00:07:37.259
When I was through college, I thought I was gonna be a senator for some reason, and that was the goal.
00:07:37.259 --> 00:07:41.519
Until, you know, I realized I didn't have the strength of character to do that and be a good human being.
00:07:41.670 --> 00:07:41.879
Yeah.
00:07:41.879 --> 00:07:44.038
Well, I mean, I'm, who does?
00:07:45.180 --> 00:07:46.860
Uh, very rare individuals.
00:07:46.949 --> 00:07:47.009
Yeah.
00:07:47.274 --> 00:07:47.564
Yeah.
00:07:48.959 --> 00:07:52.800
And so it's nice to, I, I don't hear that background very often with other clinicians, man.
00:07:52.800 --> 00:07:52.889
Sure.
00:07:52.889 --> 00:07:55.920
I didn't know we had some nice pieces in common, man, that's a lot of fun.
00:07:56.040 --> 00:07:56.129
Sure.
00:07:56.129 --> 00:07:59.879
Well, so I guess we should jump into things for the listeners as opposed to just my curiosity about your career.
00:08:00.569 --> 00:08:00.848
Sure, sure.
00:08:00.959 --> 00:08:01.379
Yeah.
00:08:02.459 --> 00:08:16.199
So, uh, one of the things that always turned me off when I was younger of Buddhism before I met that, that colleague that I got to do training with to like push on this, is the idea of self-acceptance as this very passive.
00:08:17.233 --> 00:08:23.685
Very kind of like settling into where you are version of accepting your situation.
00:08:23.863 --> 00:08:32.024
And my understanding is that is not a complete or even beginning to really understand the self-acceptance that Buddhists tend to bring to the table.
00:08:32.203 --> 00:08:34.365
Okay, so here's what it comes down to.
00:08:34.365 --> 00:08:39.043
So the like, um, any idea in Buddhism comes down to.
00:08:39.960 --> 00:08:52.860
I think it's helpful to contextualize within the noble truths, within the sort of core, like the, the very first teaching that Buddha ever gave, and by some accounts, the also the last, right before he, he died, were the teachings on the four Noble truths.
00:08:53.669 --> 00:08:56.309
They're translated in in different ways.
00:08:56.309 --> 00:09:00.360
My teacher translates 'em as number one, everybody suffers.
00:09:01.200 --> 00:09:04.019
Number two, suffering has causes.
00:09:04.860 --> 00:09:07.980
Number three, liberation is possible.
00:09:09.014 --> 00:09:12.073
Number four, liberation also has causes.
00:09:13.245 --> 00:09:21.193
So whatever you're doing, like for me with Buddhism, what it comes down to is whatever teaching you're looking at, it's like, why?
00:09:21.313 --> 00:09:22.394
Like, why do you care?
00:09:22.845 --> 00:09:25.063
Like why would this help anybody?
00:09:25.693 --> 00:09:31.514
And if there's no answer that you have or like, how it, how does this pertain to my life?
00:09:32.115 --> 00:09:32.953
Then forget about it.
00:09:32.953 --> 00:09:33.419
It's not for you.
00:09:34.649 --> 00:09:44.549
Um, and ultimately one of the things that the Buddha would often respond when people asked him academic questions is, how does this relate to the problem of your suffering?
00:09:45.899 --> 00:10:00.580
And so, um, basically, and sometimes he would give these like stories about like, somebody whose house is on fire and they say, well, before I put the, before I put this fire out, I need to know who started it.
00:10:02.054 --> 00:10:05.715
Who are their ancestors, why they started it, what were they using?
00:10:05.894 --> 00:10:07.004
Where did they come from?
00:10:07.634 --> 00:10:11.534
Um, and then by the time they get all of their answers, their house is burned down.
00:10:12.914 --> 00:10:15.014
And so for me, what Yeah, what it comes down.
00:10:15.014 --> 00:10:20.745
So the, the idea of self-acceptance comes down to what is your suffering?
00:10:21.705 --> 00:10:25.965
Like, what is, what is stopping you?
00:10:26.399 --> 00:10:37.019
From feeling light and free and from loving the people that you want to love in a way that to them, they experience as being loved.
00:10:37.230 --> 00:10:44.159
And often the ways that we look at our experience and just saying, no.
00:10:45.570 --> 00:10:47.610
The Buddhist term for this is aversion.
00:10:48.330 --> 00:11:00.090
When we, when you look at anything and you're just sort of like, I, I, I can't deal with that aversion and, and the other side of aversion of, of craving or clinging, you know, grasping at things.
00:11:01.049 --> 00:11:03.600
Those are necessary qualities of the mind.
00:11:04.559 --> 00:11:09.690
Your, your mind has evolved to always be like, this isn't what I want.
00:11:09.690 --> 00:11:11.669
I want that, that's not what I want.
00:11:11.669 --> 00:11:12.299
I want this.
00:11:13.695 --> 00:11:21.914
The, the idea of self-acceptance or the idea of acceptance ultimately comes down to not getting caught by those things.
00:11:23.024 --> 00:11:41.350
Recognizing your mind's gonna do it, but not letting that convince you that happiness and freedom are not available to you in this moment, because that, that's ultimately when, whenever we're not accepting.
00:11:42.360 --> 00:11:50.580
Implicit in that can be the idea that I can't feel okay.
00:11:51.059 --> 00:11:52.379
I can't be okay.
00:11:52.438 --> 00:11:55.318
I can't be free until something is different.
00:11:56.429 --> 00:11:57.299
I'll be happy when
00:11:57.779 --> 00:12:05.818
I'll be happy, when I'll be free when, and if you get caught by that idea, then you'll never be free.
00:12:05.909 --> 00:12:10.318
'cause there'll always be a win that is very different.
00:12:10.620 --> 00:12:16.080
Then the kind of like looking at something and wanting to make it better.
00:12:16.440 --> 00:12:21.929
Um, like looking at a situation and wanting to intervene and make it better from a place of freedom.
00:12:22.230 --> 00:12:24.450
Like I recognize that I'm free now.
00:12:24.840 --> 00:12:28.379
I recognize this, the, the world is how it is right now.
00:12:28.649 --> 00:12:31.259
I also recognize that there's something that I can do about it.
00:12:31.320 --> 00:12:36.480
Like there's something that I can do in the world to make it better, and there's no conflict there.
00:12:37.019 --> 00:12:47.669
It's interesting the way that you're framing it, because that's not often what I hear when I talk to kind of more Buddhist thought philosophies in that you're connecting it to other people.
00:12:48.299 --> 00:12:54.269
Most of the time when I talk to Buddhist folks, it's very like internal locus self-acceptance.
00:12:54.269 --> 00:12:55.320
Kind of deeper and deeper.
00:12:55.320 --> 00:12:56.340
Deeper into yourself.
00:12:56.340 --> 00:13:02.190
But tell me more about the, like how you love other people and how you impact the world,
00:13:02.370 --> 00:13:03.029
honestly.
00:13:03.029 --> 00:13:04.950
So it depends on where your suffering is, right?
00:13:04.950 --> 00:13:05.759
So for me.
00:13:06.840 --> 00:13:08.820
Uh, so, uh, I grew up with a single mom.
00:13:09.120 --> 00:13:16.590
I wanted to be able to, like, one thing that was true for me, so my mom, my, my father left before I was born.
00:13:17.730 --> 00:13:21.600
And one thing that was true for me is like, I want to be a good father.
00:13:21.779 --> 00:13:24.539
Like, that was like one thing that's been clear to me since I was young.
00:13:25.409 --> 00:13:34.830
Um, I also want to be a good partner and in many ways, like that is part of what drive what, especially early on in, in my, um.
00:13:36.104 --> 00:13:38.774
In my relationship to, to Buddhism.
00:13:39.073 --> 00:13:46.813
But I would say still, like I have a 12-year-old, a lot of what's driving me is like, I wanna be a good parent.
00:13:47.774 --> 00:13:50.024
Um, I want to be like a good partner.
00:13:50.144 --> 00:14:01.634
I wanna feel free in myself, but not only for my own enjoyment, like as a, as an extension, as like a model, as like a way to.
00:14:02.414 --> 00:14:05.205
Contribute to like freedom in the world.
00:14:06.254 --> 00:14:16.514
And so Te Han would, one of the things that Te Han would often say is like when we talk about, um, compassion for ourselves or compassion for other people, he would say that's discrimination.
00:14:16.605 --> 00:14:17.774
Compassion is compassion.
00:14:18.914 --> 00:14:25.335
Compassion is a way of responding to suffering in a way that relieves suffering.
00:14:25.514 --> 00:14:30.375
That lines up with a lot of Western thought on empathy too, where if you can't have external empathy, you can't.
00:14:31.065 --> 00:14:31.875
Have it for yourself.
00:14:32.144 --> 00:14:32.774
Exactly.
00:14:32.774 --> 00:14:49.845
So the, the idea is like if you, if you respond to suffering, if you know how to respond, he would say the more, more technically, um, compassion is the intention and the capacity to be able to be of benefit to suffering or to be able to transform suffering.
00:14:49.934 --> 00:14:52.394
And that can be suffering in you and in other people.
00:14:52.394 --> 00:14:54.375
And if you only care about suffering in yourself.
00:14:55.604 --> 00:14:58.424
I am not gonna put anybody down for this.
00:14:58.484 --> 00:15:01.184
It likely what it is, is that you're in that moment.
00:15:01.184 --> 00:15:07.364
You are so overwhelmed with your own suffering that the idea of being helpful to somebody else is just not on the table.
00:15:08.354 --> 00:15:11.744
But as soon as you are.
00:15:12.690 --> 00:15:21.659
Stable enough that there are other people that you could benefit, then that starts to become obvious that like you're practicing for yourself and for others.
00:15:23.009 --> 00:15:26.009
I really, I really appreciate the, the, and that you're bringing into that.
00:15:26.220 --> 00:15:40.440
Like, one of the things that tends to annoy me pretty heavily, and I, I tend to call it hippie shit, is the folks that are so lackadaisical in the world to like ease their suffering.
00:15:40.934 --> 00:15:41.144
Right.
00:15:41.144 --> 00:15:44.774
The folks that are like, oh, well this came up for me and I'm just gonna cancel on you.
00:15:46.095 --> 00:15:50.475
Oh, you know, like that nine to five is just, oh, that's just too, that's too much.
00:15:51.164 --> 00:15:55.693
And what I'm hearing from you is there will always be some suffering.
00:15:56.595 --> 00:15:57.884
So which suffering are you picking?
00:15:57.884 --> 00:15:58.875
How are you resolving it?
00:15:59.235 --> 00:15:59.654
Yeah.
00:15:59.745 --> 00:16:03.134
In Buddhist philosophy, there's a term called the Near enemy.
00:16:04.004 --> 00:16:06.943
And so what we do, uh, anytime we define a thing.
00:16:07.304 --> 00:16:10.845
We define it often by its far enemies and its near enemies.
00:16:11.294 --> 00:16:17.355
So, uh, compassion, the far enemy of compassion is cruelty, right?
00:16:17.355 --> 00:16:22.725
So it is just the opposite, you know, like the, the, the, the far enemy is just the opposite.
00:16:23.085 --> 00:16:29.475
The near enemy is something that can be mistaken for the quality, but is actually very different.
00:16:30.014 --> 00:16:33.629
So one near enemy of compassion is pity.
00:16:34.934 --> 00:16:46.664
So pity is an example of like, I, I see that you're suffering and I care, but in a way that very put, very much, puts myself above you.
00:16:46.965 --> 00:16:51.674
It's sort of like a condescending compassion where I'm just sort of like, well, glad I'm not you.
00:16:52.320 --> 00:16:53.639
Um, I have pity on you.
00:16:53.970 --> 00:16:54.210
Well, and I
00:16:54.210 --> 00:16:55.605
couldn't be you, you know, which
00:16:55.605 --> 00:16:55.965
is, yeah.
00:16:55.965 --> 00:16:56.730
And I couldn't be you.
00:16:56.730 --> 00:17:02.519
And so like, compassion is like, I can see myself in you and I can see like, your suffering is not different than my suffering.
00:17:02.519 --> 00:17:04.619
Like, we both suffer and we suffer in different ways.
00:17:04.650 --> 00:17:09.630
But, uh, one of the things that you're talking about there is sort of like a, it's like a, a narcissistic.
00:17:10.019 --> 00:17:24.210
Near enemy of self-compassion, like, which, which is basically sort of like, um, the, the type of, the type of self-compassion that is, is maybe like self-centeredness, more than self-compassion.
00:17:24.299 --> 00:17:30.484
It's this idea of my suffering matters and only mine, and that is missing the point.
00:17:31.169 --> 00:17:39.450
In terms of what's actually going to liberate you, like what's actually gonna create the experience of being genuinely free and alive
00:17:39.628 --> 00:17:51.779
and, and I think that's a big critique I have on our field as clinicians is too many of our colleagues don't encourage that outward connection and mirror to make the work stick and be worthwhile.
00:17:52.710 --> 00:17:53.789
And it makes some sense from.
00:17:54.944 --> 00:17:56.055
From a clinical standpoint, right?
00:17:56.055 --> 00:17:59.295
We're, we're infinitely curious about the person's thought and experience.
00:17:59.355 --> 00:18:01.664
That's what we do for the job and it's fantastic.
00:18:02.295 --> 00:18:12.105
And so I think it makes sense that we get lost there, but I think the kind of TikTok version of therapy has led people down this really destructive, isolated, selfish path.
00:18:12.224 --> 00:18:14.625
Yeah, I think that, um, I mean the other thing is.
00:18:15.525 --> 00:18:25.815
Um, a, a lot of people in the psychology field are not very empirically driven, and we know that like the quality of our relationships is one of the biggest predictors of the quality of our wellbeing.
00:18:25.845 --> 00:18:32.355
There's like that, you know, 70 year Harvard study, which is just like, you know, positive affect, you know, happiness.
00:18:32.414 --> 00:18:41.204
Happiness is largely driven by the depth and breadth of our relationships, um, at more than, pretty much anything else you can find.
00:18:41.954 --> 00:18:44.924
Uh, so yeah, it's, it's, um.
00:18:45.704 --> 00:18:48.734
Because of how we're set up with the doors closed.
00:18:48.944 --> 00:18:57.704
It's easy to get, you know, kind of myopic and, you know, naval gazing, but it's, uh, I ideally we can remember what actually matters.
00:18:57.944 --> 00:19:03.194
The way I like to frame it is like going into the naval gazing to come back out better for your folks is, is kind of the goal, right?
00:19:03.194 --> 00:19:03.464
That in
00:19:03.464 --> 00:19:03.734
total.
00:19:03.734 --> 00:19:04.334
Totally, yeah.
00:19:04.334 --> 00:19:05.084
Good, good exploration.
00:19:05.084 --> 00:19:12.494
What I would say is the, the way that I like to think about it is like you bring your, it it like, so sometimes you'll have a client who's like, well, why do I need to do all this introspection?
00:19:13.574 --> 00:19:15.584
Um, why do we need to go through all this stuff?
00:19:16.064 --> 00:19:25.125
And I'm like, okay, so imagine you brought your car into a mechanic and he is like, okay, I'm gonna need to go through and kind of like open it up and look at it and see what's actually not working.
00:19:25.394 --> 00:19:26.984
And you're like, that's a waste of my time.
00:19:26.984 --> 00:19:27.584
Just fix it.
00:19:28.814 --> 00:19:33.674
It's like, well, I, I don't know how to fix it until I look at it and see what isn't working.
00:19:34.125 --> 00:19:39.654
So when I got turned onto mindfulness, it was through like dialectic behavior therapy and that's.
00:19:40.799 --> 00:19:46.679
The whole lever of it is just know where you're at, know what's happening, and then, right.
00:19:46.888 --> 00:19:58.138
And that we tend to skip that first part for the folks listening that are, you know, maybe more performance driven, you know, they've, they've got their goals, they wanna keep their edge.
00:19:58.919 --> 00:20:01.500
What would you say to them around.
00:20:02.039 --> 00:20:05.190
That kind of in and out of that suffering and acceptance and impact,
00:20:05.279 --> 00:20:23.638
be very clear about why you care about your performance, and I would assume that if you are honest with yourself, you wanna perform optimally because you believe that that will create more happiness, more freedom, less suffering in you and the people that you love.
00:20:24.628 --> 00:20:30.329
And I want to say that probably optimum performance is part of.
00:20:31.154 --> 00:20:36.164
What can create a better life for you and the people you love, but it will not be the entirety of your path.
00:20:36.224 --> 00:20:56.444
Being entirely focused on optimizing yourself, being entirely focused on, you know, maximizing your performance will still leave a big hole, will still leave like a, a sense of unease in your life, and it is possible.
00:20:57.599 --> 00:21:04.349
To perform at a high level, um, with a high level of ease.
00:21:05.160 --> 00:21:22.619
And one of the things that I often, I, I often look at, um, in the, in, in Daoism, in traditional Chinese, uh, philosophy that we look, we talk about understanding water as a metaphor for power without effort.
00:21:23.759 --> 00:21:25.740
When you watch a wave crash.
00:21:26.444 --> 00:21:36.164
Shore, I mean, depending on where you live, or you can watch a river carve through a mountain, every drop of water is exerting no effort, and yet it's incredibly powerful.
00:21:36.285 --> 00:21:45.704
And so you can allow yourself, you can find ways to be powerful without striving, without the, the sort of like gritting your teeth.
00:21:46.664 --> 00:21:52.994
And you can often find a greater degree of power that comes.
00:21:53.055 --> 00:21:55.214
So Teon actually wrote a book called Power.
00:21:56.263 --> 00:22:07.364
Um, that's, you know, that, that's about these teachings, but it's like this idea of being able to have power with ease, which can be a, um, another way of deepening.
00:22:07.484 --> 00:22:16.099
The thing that comes to my mind fairly immediately when you talk about that power with ease is the distinction of mastery at a thing.
00:22:16.650 --> 00:22:25.680
And where I think a lot of people get it messed up is it's not that you're just so good that you're not trying, it's that you're so good, you learning.
00:22:26.220 --> 00:22:33.660
Isn't difficult anymore, like you're still engaged and you're kind of at that, that edge where you're cruising through things really well.
00:22:33.779 --> 00:22:37.079
For me anyway, I always feel like I visit that it's not anywhere I get to live.
00:22:37.138 --> 00:22:49.440
I think like on top of the other thing that I would say is as you spend more time understanding yourself, as you kind of understand the nature of your mind and understand like, okay, so why do you care?
00:22:50.400 --> 00:22:51.930
Why do you want mastery?
00:22:51.960 --> 00:22:52.138
Why?
00:22:52.138 --> 00:22:52.589
Like why?
00:22:52.589 --> 00:22:53.878
Why do you want efficiency?
00:22:53.878 --> 00:22:54.119
Why?
00:22:54.150 --> 00:22:55.440
Why are you looking for power?
00:22:56.609 --> 00:23:13.559
The more that you can see the drive as sort of like the conditioning of your mind, and the more you can from a place of freedom, go with it or not based in an understanding of like what actually, what's what serves me in the people that I love.
00:23:13.619 --> 00:23:15.269
You can step out of habit.
00:23:15.299 --> 00:23:24.269
You can create a freer place of engagement, and when you're engaging from a place of freedom, then.
00:23:25.410 --> 00:23:27.625
There's like, there's just more energy.
00:23:28.170 --> 00:23:29.490
To engage.
00:23:29.910 --> 00:23:47.130
Can't remember which instructor talked about it first, but it was why I like motivational interviewing so much is that the minute that you are targeted at your efficacy and your choices, that freedom of choice, no matter how crappy the choices you have in front of you are immediately provides healing.
00:23:47.160 --> 00:23:47.579
Yeah.
00:23:47.579 --> 00:23:50.769
And I think, yeah, in terms of motivational interviewing, the, the way that we.
00:23:51.220 --> 00:24:00.369
Talk about it in Buddhism is, um, for example, it's like when in the, um, discourse on, um, uh, dwelling happily in the present moment.
00:24:00.730 --> 00:24:07.089
We talk about when thinking about the past, you are not caught in thoughts about the past.
00:24:07.569 --> 00:24:13.585
When thinking about the future, you are not caught by thoughts about the future when thinking about the present.
00:24:14.263 --> 00:24:19.273
You are not caught by your thoughts about the present and that there's like a sense of freedom.
00:24:19.273 --> 00:24:32.474
And what I mean by not caught is like this idea of like, I recognize when I'm thinking about the future, it's just like realizing I'm not in it, like feeling kind of overwhelmed by like, what am I gonna do?
00:24:32.474 --> 00:24:42.704
It's like I'm here thinking about a thing that may or may not happen and I can engage with the same kind of planning, I can engage with the same kind of strategizing without.
00:24:43.545 --> 00:24:45.494
Like feeling stressed about it.
00:24:45.555 --> 00:24:49.785
'cause I recognize that it's just like a, a thing that may or may not ever happen.
00:24:49.930 --> 00:25:03.404
I, I think that transitions pretty well into the, the other aspect of mindfulness that I'm really excited to talk to you, but I feel like I could go into catching Western thought comparisons with Buddhism to get, get the understanding out there.
00:25:03.585 --> 00:25:09.615
But I wanna make sure that we leave people with some broader practice on how to get to that kind of acceptance place.
00:25:09.884 --> 00:25:11.654
And like we were talking about before, with.
00:25:12.089 --> 00:25:14.670
Within like clinical mental health, right?
00:25:14.670 --> 00:25:15.960
And DBT mindfulness.
00:25:16.079 --> 00:25:23.039
What I hear from most guys is they try it the way that like my DBT manual teaches it, right?
00:25:23.039 --> 00:25:28.109
Like do some square breathing, kinda count your thoughts, do chain analysis, et cetera.
00:25:29.009 --> 00:25:35.069
And what I find is, and it's certainly true for me a lot of the time where it just doesn't work.
00:25:35.670 --> 00:25:40.740
I get stuck in the future thinking, I get stuck in the past thinking, I get stuck thinking about thinking and.
00:25:41.174 --> 00:25:47.144
That's even more true for my patients that are a DD where they just don't, they, they don't have that, that mind.
00:25:48.285 --> 00:25:53.144
What ways do you give those folks to, to do that mindfulness practice
00:25:53.325 --> 00:26:00.914
in the discourse on, on, um, the foundations of mindfulness, the sort of like the core discourse.
00:26:00.914 --> 00:26:07.845
When the Buddha sort of taught the practice of mindfulness, there were like the four foundations of mindfulness.
00:26:08.444 --> 00:26:17.295
Uh, mindfulness of the body, of the feelings of thoughts and of sort of like dharmas or, or, um, uh, sort of objects of mind.
00:26:18.464 --> 00:26:35.444
The, we start with the body and one thing that is important to recognize is that when somebody is in distress, we always start with whatever is the easiest object of mindfulness.
00:26:36.464 --> 00:26:43.125
When you're feeling relatively peaceful, the breath can be a helpful object to be paying attention to.
00:26:43.484 --> 00:26:45.944
When you're in distress, it's the wrong choice.
00:26:46.275 --> 00:27:03.434
When someone is anxious, stressed, angry, sad, we focus on the sensations in the body and the sensations in like the physical sensations in the body that, um, so, so, uh.
00:27:04.079 --> 00:27:21.539
One thing that, that is like a, one of those common overlaps between Buddhism and neuroscience is in Buddhism, uh, a feeling sadika is made up of a bodily state and a tendency to think certain types of thoughts.
00:27:22.140 --> 00:27:24.974
So all when, when you say you're fearful.
00:27:25.980 --> 00:27:39.960
When you say, when we talk about, you know, uh, I, I'm experiencing fear, what fear is is a physiological response in your body combined with a tendency to think fearful thoughts.
00:27:40.890 --> 00:27:43.950
If you take away those two things, there's nothing there.
00:27:43.950 --> 00:27:45.359
There are no other parts of fear.
00:27:46.289 --> 00:27:52.470
So what we do is we distinguish between the physiological process.
00:27:53.625 --> 00:28:01.994
Increased heart rate, blood pressure, you know, like sensations in my chest and in my stomach, um, from the fearful thoughts.
00:28:01.994 --> 00:28:08.474
And what I say is, keep your attention as much as you can on the sensations in your body.
00:28:09.795 --> 00:28:18.884
So when you're feeling stressed out, when you're feeling anxious, um, even with like a DHD kinds of things, A DHD is like a, it's, it's a.
00:28:19.934 --> 00:28:40.575
The fidgetiness, the sort of like agitation that's there, come back to the body and when you come back and you just pay attention as much as you can to the sensations in your body, it's fine If thoughts come and go, um, just don't lose track of your body.
00:28:41.085 --> 00:28:48.194
Try to keep at least half of your attention on the sensations in your bo as much as you can, at least half.
00:28:49.424 --> 00:28:55.753
So right now I'm paying attention to like tightness in my chest and in my throat.
00:28:56.924 --> 00:29:00.314
Right now I'm paying attention to sort of like tension in my face.
00:29:01.273 --> 00:29:13.753
And I just wanna, and the, the acceptance part here is we start with, the way that I like to teach mindfulness is we, um, especially when, when we're doing mindfulness of distress, it goes from tolerance.
00:29:15.134 --> 00:29:16.365
Mere tolerance.
00:29:16.365 --> 00:29:20.595
Can you tolerate that uncomfortable feeling in your body?
00:29:21.795 --> 00:29:27.194
Can you just be like, ah, this sucks, but I'm going to feel it anyway.
00:29:27.855 --> 00:29:35.295
And then from tolerance into acceptance, which is like, this is an unpleasant feeling.
00:29:36.359 --> 00:29:40.888
But I am, it's, but it's okay to have unpleasant feelings sometimes.
00:29:40.919 --> 00:29:46.109
Like life will have continue to have unpleasant feelings from now until you die.
00:29:46.710 --> 00:29:53.339
Like you'll have pleasant, unpleasant, and neutral feelings every single day for the rest of your life.
00:29:53.970 --> 00:30:02.970
If you go into a panic when an unpleasant feeling comes, or you feel like you need to distract yourself or you feel like you can't tolerate it, then you're gonna spend a lot of your life running.
00:30:04.500 --> 00:30:07.079
So we learn how to tolerate an unpleasant feeling.
00:30:07.589 --> 00:30:12.359
We learn how to accept an unpleasant feeling, and then we move into compassion.
00:30:13.259 --> 00:30:26.638
And so what I mean by compassion in this sense is you are a mammal, and mammals are set up physiologically to respond to certain kinds of attention.
00:30:27.734 --> 00:30:31.664
In a way that feels like it soothes distress, right?
00:30:31.875 --> 00:30:41.414
So every single mammal has, so, uh, the neuroscientist yak Ponzi, he's, uh, one of my favorite, uh, neuroscientists.
00:30:41.414 --> 00:30:42.345
He studied emotion.
00:30:42.585 --> 00:30:49.964
He talks about the sort of core affective, like emotional circuits that every mammal shares.
00:30:50.564 --> 00:30:53.474
And one of them is that he calls the care circuit.
00:30:54.660 --> 00:30:55.799
And it lights up.
00:30:55.799 --> 00:30:57.990
It's something that's not a particular region of the brain.
00:30:57.990 --> 00:31:01.259
It comes through, uh, various regions of the brain.
00:31:01.859 --> 00:31:12.930
But every time a mammal from a mouse monkey person is either giving or receiving care, that part of your brain lights up.
00:31:13.230 --> 00:31:19.200
It releases oxytocin, it releases natural opiates to kind of give you that warm, fuzzy feeling.
00:31:20.324 --> 00:31:39.314
And according to concept, and this makes a lot of sense from the perspective of Buddhist psychology, it is one of the our most basic tools for regulating distress, for relieving distress when a baby is in distress, being held with compassion.
00:31:39.314 --> 00:31:47.023
Just that that sort of caring affect is soothing and it's soothing for us too.
00:31:47.535 --> 00:31:53.894
And what it feels like is this idea of like, it's okay that I'm suffering in this moment.
00:31:54.434 --> 00:32:00.105
And there's like a sense of care of like, hey, of feeling cared for or feeling care.
00:32:01.065 --> 00:32:09.525
And I think that the, that for me, um, just recognizing that what you're doing is you're activating a part of your brain that's going to relieve your distress.
00:32:10.545 --> 00:32:16.125
You know, you're just getting in touch in, in Buddhist psychology, we say the energy of compassion.
00:32:17.085 --> 00:32:22.275
Is what relieves suffering in a neuroscience, we say activating the care circuit.
00:32:22.679 --> 00:32:25.950
You know, relieves distress and the sort of the markers of distress.
00:32:26.460 --> 00:32:27.240
It's the same thing.
00:32:27.388 --> 00:32:28.169
It's really interesting.
00:32:28.169 --> 00:32:36.964
My mind is immediately going to, um, internal family systems work, which has been, uh, a big part of my own personal work for the last year or so, and.
00:32:37.934 --> 00:32:46.275
A big part of that was my grandmother was the, the kind of nurturer in my life early and my kind of pre memories of being cared for by her.
00:32:46.275 --> 00:32:55.845
I got to witness happen to my baby brother, and so a lot of that distress and sitting with it and being able to go through the various things that I needed to involved.
00:32:55.845 --> 00:32:57.795
A lot of this is happening.
00:32:58.349 --> 00:32:59.789
I, I see this hurting.
00:32:59.789 --> 00:33:09.628
I see why it's hurting, and either this is how we're gonna take care of ourselves now and tend to it, or, Hey, now isn't the time for that tending, but you, it will be tended.
00:33:10.424 --> 00:33:12.044
This will come, this compassion will come.
00:33:12.134 --> 00:33:12.494
Yeah.
00:33:12.509 --> 00:33:30.284
I, I think that's the missing part one, one thing that I think is really unfortunate, and I think this actually there's like a, an interesting history here where, uh, John Katzen, um, basically took some teachings about Buddhism and wanted to make them, like in, in the seventies and early eighties, he wanted to make them more palatable.
00:33:30.625 --> 00:33:48.954
For conservatively trained doctors, so he got rid of a lot of important aspects of how these things are taught traditionally so that conservatively trained doctors would be able to relate to it as more of a clinical intervention and not something that made them feel uncomfortable.
00:33:48.954 --> 00:33:50.335
Mindfulness.
00:33:50.615 --> 00:34:03.394
As it's defined in Buddhist philosophy and, and the abi Dharma is like one of the sort of core, uh, collections of Buddhist philosophy in terms are defined.
00:34:03.638 --> 00:34:12.695
Uh, uh, I think mindfulness has 18 necessary and sufficient conditions, um, in order to be mindfulness.
00:34:13.175 --> 00:34:14.525
And one of them is compassion.
00:34:14.945 --> 00:34:18.574
And so if there is no care, if there is no love.
00:34:19.349 --> 00:34:20.820
Then it's not mindfulness.
00:34:21.764 --> 00:34:24.134
It might be a a, a precursor.
00:34:24.193 --> 00:34:33.583
You might be try, you might be like in the, you know, I'm trying to orient toward mindfulness, but you're not successfully practicing it if there's no love.
00:34:33.704 --> 00:34:38.534
Just thinking about, uh, I had to go get a trainer because I'm not, uh, as self-motivated in the gym as I would like.
00:34:38.713 --> 00:34:40.963
And of course, the guy's a maniac, right?
00:34:40.963 --> 00:34:43.844
Like he's the guy running like the 50 mile Ironmans and everything.
00:34:44.414 --> 00:34:48.943
And one of the things that really drew me to him is.
00:34:49.634 --> 00:34:53.204
Will be going through whatever, and he's demoing something and he's like, oh, I can't do that very hard.
00:34:53.204 --> 00:34:53.923
It'll gimme a big smile.
00:34:53.923 --> 00:34:54.733
It's my rest day.
00:34:54.855 --> 00:35:06.134
And there's this, I wouldn't think he would frame it this way, but it's that like self-compassion that has to happen that he's enjoying so he can go do the next type two fun thing tomorrow.
00:35:06.284 --> 00:35:10.903
Yeah, I mean, the thing is like whatever you're motivated by, right?
00:35:11.264 --> 00:35:15.224
I mean, okay, so ultimately all biological things.
00:35:16.170 --> 00:35:22.349
Are motivated to suffer less and to thrive in whatever way they frame thriving.
00:35:22.530 --> 00:35:22.889
Right.
00:35:23.039 --> 00:35:24.869
Is it to rep, is it to replicate?
00:35:24.869 --> 00:35:26.190
Is it to have wellbeing?
00:35:26.190 --> 00:35:28.079
Is it to, um, you know what?
00:35:28.110 --> 00:35:36.030
Whatever your understanding of thriving is, every amoeba tries to move away from dangers and move toward.
00:35:36.480 --> 00:35:46.500
Um, you know, these drives that we have, so understanding what's driving me this, this idea of like, of freedom, of happiness, of joy, of ease.
00:35:46.500 --> 00:35:59.489
Like what are the, what are the, the of fulfillment, of self-realization, like whatever these drivers are, and looking for people that we, that can mentor us.
00:36:00.329 --> 00:36:10.860
In to that, to, to learn these different kinds of qualities and kind of recognize like, just in the same way that I can work on myself in the gym, I can work on that.
00:36:10.920 --> 00:36:16.894
Um, when someone, you know, like when, when someone asks me about, uh, doing like that, that smile of like, it's my recipe.
00:36:17.369 --> 00:36:17.489
Okay.
00:36:17.940 --> 00:36:18.869
Like that.
00:36:19.050 --> 00:36:27.750
Having that kind of natural and easeful smile is a quality we can, we can train in as well for more like specifics of what we were asking for.
00:36:27.750 --> 00:36:35.820
Somebody dealing with a DHD for someone who's whose stress agitation, what we wanna do is come back to the body.
00:36:36.960 --> 00:36:42.840
We wanna tolerate an unpleasant sensation, we wanna move into acceptance, and we wanna move into compassion.
00:36:43.920 --> 00:36:46.170
And then what that allows us to do.
00:36:46.829 --> 00:36:59.579
Is to be able to be more easeful as pleasant, unpleasant, you know, sensations move through us, it's not a problem.
00:37:00.840 --> 00:37:01.199
Right?
00:37:01.349 --> 00:37:03.000
And then we don't get stuck.
00:37:03.000 --> 00:37:04.079
We don't get caught in any of it,
00:37:04.199 --> 00:37:07.949
and we're not gonna add to the suffering by giving it a spin in our mind.
00:37:08.070 --> 00:37:14.829
So if there was a like one tool that you wish more people had.
00:37:16.019 --> 00:37:24.059
That like DBT and the kind of western pilfering of these things, uh, doesn't cover, but that would really help most guys.
00:37:24.480 --> 00:37:25.409
What would that tool be?
00:37:25.500 --> 00:37:38.309
I would say ultimately like, recognize when you're suffering, like recognize when suffering is present and really, like a lot of men don't pay close enough attention to themselves to realize when they're suffering.
00:37:38.429 --> 00:37:43.230
If you are not feeling free, if you're not feeling joyful.
00:37:43.619 --> 00:37:48.059
If you're not feeling like light and loving, then there's suffering in you.
00:37:49.380 --> 00:37:55.199
Like it's suffering that is getting in the way of you feeling joyful, of you feeling loving.
00:37:56.579 --> 00:38:02.670
Pay attention to that suffering and then recognize that that suffering that is in you is in need of compassion.
00:38:02.789 --> 00:38:06.599
And I, I feel like that that orientation is like kind of the core of what I got from gna.
00:38:06.989 --> 00:38:07.769
That's really interesting.
00:38:07.775 --> 00:38:07.965
The.
00:38:08.804 --> 00:38:11.114
The kind of way that we learned that as men.
00:38:11.144 --> 00:38:20.445
I, I tend to go back to, uh, the boy crisis and some stories that he told when he looked at how men modeled for us.
00:38:20.625 --> 00:38:27.195
And the thing that boomer men tended to do well was suffer without bothering anybody.
00:38:28.094 --> 00:38:30.614
Boomers and Xers were like, that's, that's their jam.
00:38:30.614 --> 00:38:34.244
Like a man gets it done, he shows up and that's fine.
00:38:35.385 --> 00:38:36.014
And what.
00:38:37.590 --> 00:38:49.679
I found really moving is when I started to look into these stories and, and was inspired by that book was when children ask their fathers and grandfathers what their dreams were and it's almost never their work.
00:38:50.219 --> 00:38:53.039
It's almost never the thing that they gave their entire life to for them.
00:38:54.539 --> 00:39:01.500
And I think there's something, there's definitely something admirable, right, about going through hard things to improve the world, improve things for your family.
00:39:02.295 --> 00:39:07.664
But I think by doing it in silence, it robbed the gift of it in a lot of ways.
00:39:07.815 --> 00:39:08.894
Well, and I think that's the thing.
00:39:08.894 --> 00:39:16.335
It's like if, from a place of freedom, so I don't like flicking out on plans, like just, you know, you brought up, you brought that up earlier.
00:39:16.574 --> 00:39:19.065
I certainly don't like flicking out on my loved ones.
00:39:19.423 --> 00:39:25.184
Like I, I'm someone who takes my responsibilities very seriously, but from a place of freedom.
00:39:26.505 --> 00:39:29.445
And the recognition is that you can show up.
00:39:29.835 --> 00:39:36.704
With that kind of solidity and consistency without having to ignore your suffering.
00:39:36.704 --> 00:39:41.715
And honestly, you can show up a lot better because when you do show up, you're not a fucking buzzkill.
00:39:41.744 --> 00:39:54.494
Like, I probably, I dunno if I can swear here, but like, but, but like, basically it's like a lot, the thing that a lot of boomer men, uh, we're good at is showing up and making everybody else feel uncomfortable.
00:39:54.824 --> 00:39:57.644
Um, and, and, and, you know, kind of like.
00:39:58.349 --> 00:40:00.208
Like they had to walk on eggshells.
00:40:00.329 --> 00:40:08.398
And so what I wanna say is like, you can show up with that kind of consistency, but with an open heart.
00:40:08.699 --> 00:40:23.159
But like, being the kind of person that people wanna connect with, who like wanna listen to, like, wanna um, wanna be like, and you do that by recognizing the suffering that you're carrying around.
00:40:23.730 --> 00:40:26.639
And you don't need to let.
00:40:27.690 --> 00:40:36.000
The transformation of your own suffering dominate you and, and sort of be like, it, it precludes me from being productive.
00:40:36.000 --> 00:40:38.485
Like, no, that's, that's again, missing the point.
00:40:39.644 --> 00:40:42.855
Like, we're transforming our suffering to show up.
00:40:43.273 --> 00:40:48.193
And so the, the idea is like, these are not, these are not ideas that, that need to be in conflict.
00:40:48.224 --> 00:40:52.423
You know, like my wellbeing and other people's wellbeing, they're the same thing.
00:40:52.483 --> 00:40:52.605
Yeah.
00:40:52.759 --> 00:40:54.914
I, I immediately kind of go to.
00:40:55.139 --> 00:41:01.829
I, I wish I could figure out where I quoted this from because I, I know it's not mine, but pain without Purpose is suffering.
00:41:01.980 --> 00:41:06.599
And there's this exce when you have some pain that you're choosing, like, I'm gonna be uncomfortable here.
00:41:06.599 --> 00:41:07.500
I'm gonna go do this thing.
00:41:07.500 --> 00:41:13.440
I'm going to, I'm gonna go make my buddy's thing, even though I'm, I'm really tired and don't wanna go, and I'm gonna go and I'm gonna have a good time.
00:41:14.429 --> 00:41:15.420
It's the.
00:41:16.199 --> 00:41:18.960
By picking the why.
00:41:19.230 --> 00:41:21.389
Yeah, it's connecting with the need.
00:41:21.389 --> 00:41:25.349
Like what's drive like, like before you go, just answer yourself.
00:41:25.349 --> 00:41:36.480
Like, are you doing it 'cause you have to, or are you a fucking, are you a free person making a choice And so long it's like, be a free person and, and then show up for your buddy.
00:41:36.568 --> 00:41:36.778
Yeah.
00:41:36.778 --> 00:41:37.349
I think the.
00:41:37.829 --> 00:41:48.780
The frame that I often use for it that lines up pretty well is make the choice that moves you closer to who you wanna be, and if you're moving closer to who you wanna be, whatever it costs you, it's mitigated.
00:41:48.960 --> 00:41:51.239
Like the cost is mitigated by the acceptance of it.
00:41:51.300 --> 00:41:54.900
There's a lot in Buddhism that's, that's really about it, kind of existential freedom.
00:41:55.019 --> 00:42:04.469
Well, and you covered a lot of kind of high-end language and uh, like Buddhist concepts that we had to kind of let go by.
00:42:04.469 --> 00:42:04.650
Right?
00:42:04.650 --> 00:42:07.050
We've only got the 45 minutes if.
00:42:07.590 --> 00:42:09.389
Someone was gonna read a primer.
00:42:10.349 --> 00:42:17.250
That was a really wonderful introduction to a Western thinker, to Buddhist ideas and philosophies.
00:42:18.030 --> 00:42:19.769
What's a book or two that you would throw at them?
00:42:19.949 --> 00:42:23.099
Well, the first thing that I would do is I would say, why do you care?
00:42:24.090 --> 00:42:28.170
Because if you don't know why you care and you're just wanna learn some terms.
00:42:28.559 --> 00:42:36.389
Then why you care is that you wanna impress people and maybe like, sit with that a little bit and just kind of like, why do I care about impressing people with my terms?
00:42:36.389 --> 00:42:38.159
So just like, just, I wanna say again, like, so
00:42:38.250 --> 00:42:40.019
before you look at any of this show up Humble,
00:42:40.469 --> 00:42:40.889
but Yeah.
00:42:40.889 --> 00:42:41.400
Sh yeah.
00:42:41.400 --> 00:42:47.820
Before you look at any of this, like do it, like, the first thing is, what does this have to do with the problem of your suffering?
00:42:48.239 --> 00:42:50.489
And so be clear about that.
00:42:51.030 --> 00:42:53.010
The, the reason that I, that I say that is.
00:42:53.429 --> 00:42:58.289
Um, the, you know, the top line book that I would say is the Heart of the Buddhist Teaching by Tek Mahan.
00:42:59.280 --> 00:43:03.780
It's a, a great overview of, of, um, sort of Buddhist philosophy and psychology.
00:43:03.840 --> 00:43:06.030
I have actually three books coming out over the next year.
00:43:06.420 --> 00:43:08.429
Um, Buddhist practices for.
00:43:09.045 --> 00:43:16.034
Overcoming depression, Buddhist practices for healing, uh, trauma, um, Buddhist practice for, for calming anxiety.
00:43:16.514 --> 00:43:22.318
Um, that kind of go into a little bit more technical sort of Buddhist philosophy specifically around.
00:43:23.489 --> 00:43:34.469
Something that you might be trying to deal with in general, just like showing up and being curious if, if you want to go, go deeper, the, um, insight Meditation Society and the Barry Center for Buddhist Studies.
00:43:34.469 --> 00:43:39.750
Barry is B-A-R-R-E, are, are also great places to kind of, to learn more.
00:43:40.079 --> 00:43:41.849
For me, I do wanna impress people.
00:43:41.940 --> 00:43:44.835
I'm status motivated enough, that's a thing why I look into this stuff.
00:43:45.719 --> 00:43:49.619
But the frame that always goes best for me is just trying to be a good neighbor.
00:43:49.800 --> 00:43:56.489
I'm 30 minutes from Boulder, Colorado and I got a lot of neighbors up there that I'd like to be nice to and be able to like communicate with.
00:43:56.489 --> 00:43:56.849
Well,
00:43:56.909 --> 00:43:57.570
that makes sense.
00:43:57.570 --> 00:43:59.789
Again, it's just sort of like, yeah, I want to be a good neighbor.
00:43:59.789 --> 00:44:01.050
I wanna have something to give.
00:44:01.110 --> 00:44:04.679
And the service motivat motivation, that'll get you far.
00:44:05.295 --> 00:44:06.463
I wanna be of service.
00:44:06.463 --> 00:44:07.755
I wanna have something to give.
00:44:08.114 --> 00:44:10.755
And then that, yeah, that's a, that's a great place to be coming from.
00:44:10.875 --> 00:44:18.105
Well, kinda strangely, the place I picked up the idea of being a good neighbor was I moved down to Utah for college and I'm not Mormon.
00:44:18.105 --> 00:44:20.295
And back then I very much didn't look Mormon.
00:44:20.295 --> 00:44:21.884
I had like hair down to the middle of my back.
00:44:21.884 --> 00:44:23.713
I wore combat boots, had a poor kid uniform.
00:44:24.105 --> 00:44:25.545
I stood out walking around campus.
00:44:26.250 --> 00:44:41.010
And the conversations that were the most meaningful to me from those two years were with Mormon guys and student government, where I just got to be curious about what I was seeing with some kindness, right?
00:44:41.010 --> 00:44:42.449
Like, Hey man, what's the deal with the underwear?
00:44:42.809 --> 00:44:44.219
Like, help me understand this, right?
00:44:44.940 --> 00:44:54.869
And man, the laughter and the joy of just how weird some beliefs are and how they impact people, made it wonderful.
00:44:55.710 --> 00:44:57.088
All of a sudden I wasn't resenting it.
00:44:57.329 --> 00:45:00.719
And the more we dig into our suffering, the more we realize we all have weird beliefs.
00:45:01.079 --> 00:45:01.168
Yeah.
00:45:01.168 --> 00:45:01.798
A hundred percent
00:45:01.798 --> 00:45:08.668
What, so much of what paralyzes us in relationships and, and family and whatever our, our own version of Mormon underwear.
00:45:08.730 --> 00:45:18.148
One of the first things I built when I started making this kinda content for folks was the idea of not like accepting that they're normal is not your normal.
00:45:18.148 --> 00:45:19.918
And if you start there, it's gonna go a lot better.
00:45:20.519 --> 00:45:20.639
Yeah.
00:45:20.849 --> 00:45:22.469
Everybody's got something weird that.
00:45:23.563 --> 00:45:25.543
Where depending on where you go, you're very strange.
00:45:28.125 --> 00:45:32.684
Yeah, man, I'm really impressed by the three books in one year.
00:45:33.344 --> 00:45:36.764
How did you manage to do three books in one year?
00:45:37.244 --> 00:45:40.273
It's something that I, and there ideas that I think a lot about.
00:45:41.894 --> 00:45:44.264
And so, you know, they're, they're smaller books.
00:45:44.264 --> 00:45:46.213
They're only about, you know, 80, a hundred pages each.
00:45:46.364 --> 00:45:48.193
It seems to be about the right length anymore.
00:45:48.284 --> 00:45:55.574
What it came down to is like the first few books that I wrote, so I wrote, um, uh, Self-Compassion in Psychotherapy.
00:45:55.574 --> 00:45:57.313
It's more of like a psychotherapy textbook.
00:45:57.375 --> 00:45:59.173
It's my favorite book that I've written.
00:45:59.173 --> 00:46:01.135
But you have to sit there like you want to.
00:46:01.309 --> 00:46:08.119
Sit down and read a 300 page, uh, text, you know, psychology textbook, like, then I have a, then you've impressed me.
00:46:08.179 --> 00:46:14.690
Uh, there's a self-compassion workbook and then sort of a general book called How to Stay Human in a Fucked Up World.
00:46:14.750 --> 00:46:27.289
But I think at that point I was starting to look at how the people around me like to read books is just have them around and pick up and like, you know, just like two pages here or three pages there.
00:46:27.590 --> 00:46:29.960
And I'm like, okay, well what if I, I wanna give.
00:46:30.764 --> 00:46:35.684
I wanna make something available for people that's meant to be consumed in that way.
00:46:36.105 --> 00:46:37.755
And so that's kind of where I came from.
00:46:37.934 --> 00:46:48.675
One of the things I just heard that's giving me a little bit more self-compassion about my lack of ability to write that well, and that often is that you've been doing it a while and have published some other things, so maybe there's some mastery on there.
00:46:48.675 --> 00:46:48.974
Right.
00:46:49.034 --> 00:46:51.675
My first book took a, took a, it was like.
00:46:52.485 --> 00:46:56.295
Probably a year and a half of giving the same presentation.
00:46:56.474 --> 00:46:58.244
That's exactly where I'm starting that.
00:46:58.244 --> 00:46:59.295
That's so hopeful for me.
00:46:59.519 --> 00:46:59.949
Thank you.
00:47:00.309 --> 00:47:01.215
Thank you so much.
00:47:01.335 --> 00:47:04.574
For the listeners, we've got an affiliate link for bookstore.org.
00:47:04.635 --> 00:47:11.835
I just wanna remind everybody about that, and since we're talking about these books, we'll certainly have in the show notes, links to your website, where to get them.
00:47:12.255 --> 00:47:18.469
But bookstore.org guys is a great nonprofit site to connect you with your local bookstore.
00:47:19.130 --> 00:47:25.519
And if you're ordering books online, it's like a buck or two more than you'd probably pay on Amazon, but you're keeping a local bookstore open.
00:47:25.969 --> 00:47:28.759
And if you go to our link, you're helping me keep the bills.
00:47:29.000 --> 00:47:31.280
So thanks for that.
00:47:31.429 --> 00:47:35.960
Sorry, I just, I got a lot of hard time for my producer for not plugging more about where we're doing things.
00:47:35.960 --> 00:47:36.230
Right.
00:47:36.235 --> 00:47:36.545
Gotta do it.
00:47:37.184 --> 00:47:42.855
So I think, uh, it's time to kind of get in and spin down into you a little bit.
00:47:43.724 --> 00:47:53.505
And these questions, the reason we're asking them of everybody is we wanna normalize just the humanity of masculinity for guys and the different ways that's shown up in people's lives.
00:47:53.625 --> 00:47:56.175
For you, what's a truth about masculinity?
00:47:56.175 --> 00:47:59.025
You learned before you were 12, that's remained true through your life.
00:47:59.204 --> 00:48:01.574
I mentioned, uh, earlier, I grew up without a dad.
00:48:01.844 --> 00:48:05.355
So when I think about before I was 12.
00:48:06.269 --> 00:48:17.608
I don't think that there was a, like my role models were like all people on tv and I think that pretty much everything I learned about masculinity at that point, um, hasn't stuck.
00:48:17.818 --> 00:48:29.789
And I think that that maybe that, what I wanna say there is like, um, radical change is possible and whatever we learn early on.
00:48:30.554 --> 00:48:37.153
Um, if, if you're lucky enough to have good men in your life when you're young, then that's great.
00:48:37.574 --> 00:48:51.224
And if you're not, then I would say that, uh, in high school I just basically was just like, masculinity is misogyny and that's, so therefore that's what I need to explore.
00:48:51.403 --> 00:48:54.164
And I went, you know, tried it out, tried it on for size.
00:48:54.164 --> 00:48:56.804
Did ultimately not a fan,
00:48:57.375 --> 00:48:57.554
no
00:48:57.644 --> 00:48:57.793
shocking.
00:48:59.219 --> 00:48:59.760
Yeah.
00:48:59.820 --> 00:49:23.670
And so, uh, and then learned, uh, and, and then I would say like in college, it was really when I started to spend time wanting to learn about Gary Snyder, the beat poet, wanting to learn about Woody Guthrie, the folk singer, and kind of looking at, you know, uh, clearly masculine figures that I felt like I could kind of get behind their values and, and lived well
00:49:23.849 --> 00:49:26.519
to me, maybe to get there.
00:49:26.954 --> 00:49:35.204
A little bit is if you look at the general ways that masculinity is presented, it's so thin it's not gonna serve yours.
00:49:35.384 --> 00:49:37.094
That you need to find good examples.
00:49:37.094 --> 00:49:39.733
You need to find some depth and some good men to be around.
00:49:40.003 --> 00:49:42.704
I hadn't found that by the time I was 12.
00:49:42.943 --> 00:49:44.355
I'm grateful that I did later.
00:49:44.474 --> 00:49:50.054
No, I mean, I think it was hard for guys our age that were raised without followers 'cause we're also the latchkey generation.
00:49:50.355 --> 00:49:51.105
Like we weren't.
00:49:51.509 --> 00:49:53.190
Out in the community to go see anything.
00:49:53.190 --> 00:49:56.878
So it was, you know, He-Man, at least for me, He-Man was awesome.
00:49:57.298 --> 00:50:02.190
So the, the next one I, I think it sounds like high school's got some good opportunities for this one.
00:50:02.579 --> 00:50:05.579
Tell us about a time where pursuit of masculinity hurt you.
00:50:05.579 --> 00:50:06.418
Probably like.
00:50:07.320 --> 00:50:08.400
Eighth, ninth grade.
00:50:08.550 --> 00:50:22.710
So my, my, I grew, I was raised by a mother who was like a, like a, um, radical feminist, like some, she was like the state secretary of now, like the National Organization for Women in Massachusetts in the seventies.
00:50:23.414 --> 00:50:32.295
Um, she's like, like very strong feminist, you know, raised me as a single mom, raised me and my sister, and so then as I was trying to figure out like, what did it mean to be a man?
00:50:32.295 --> 00:50:35.835
It was like, okay, so I'm just, how about, how about I just be the opposite of her in every way?
00:50:35.864 --> 00:50:48.523
Then I see men doing that, like young men doing that right now with the idea of like, so what, what if you're trying to figure out what it is to be masculine, look at what women call femininity and just try to be the opposite of it.
00:50:49.244 --> 00:51:00.554
Which, and the, the, the fucked up thing there is like, they're claiming a lot of good values, like kindness, like caring, like, you know, being, being loving.
00:51:00.585 --> 00:51:10.065
Like if, uh, like do not allow that to be something that is like polarized and only available to some of us.
00:51:10.065 --> 00:51:12.764
Like, that is not the world we wanna live in and it's not necessary.
00:51:13.184 --> 00:51:18.465
So I think the idea of just like seeing, um, women who are like.
00:51:19.215 --> 00:51:23.954
Excited about their own gender and being like, okay, I'm just gonna be the opposite of them.
00:51:24.074 --> 00:51:25.005
It doesn't go well.
00:51:25.335 --> 00:51:38.324
I I love that you're speaking to that'cause it's one that hasn't come up in this discussion and it's so pivotal in so many of the guys I work with, where as they're trying to identify masculinity and they don't, we didn't have good frames.
00:51:38.324 --> 00:51:42.644
We just didn't, that the only thing available to them was that opposite.
00:51:43.034 --> 00:51:48.403
As though the shadow of femininity is masculinity as opposed to the light of masculinity being its own thing.
00:51:48.644 --> 00:51:49.065
Totally.
00:51:49.125 --> 00:51:49.423
Yeah.
00:51:49.634 --> 00:51:50.985
Yeah, and I think that's the thing.
00:51:51.014 --> 00:51:53.954
Uh, yeah, there's a, there's a term for it in anthropology.
00:51:53.954 --> 00:51:59.173
It's called schizo agenesis, where it's basically, I, I, my identity is formed out of just.
00:52:00.179 --> 00:52:04.798
Um, I'm the opposite of you and it's Yeah, it's very codependent.
00:52:04.829 --> 00:52:05.039
Yeah.
00:52:05.039 --> 00:52:06.750
The, the fuck you dad identity.
00:52:06.750 --> 00:52:06.809
Yeah,
00:52:07.144 --> 00:52:07.585
exactly.
00:52:08.068 --> 00:52:08.219
Yeah.
00:52:08.369 --> 00:52:08.730
Totally.
00:52:09.059 --> 00:52:11.250
Alright man, well, we like to take folks out on a high note.
00:52:11.789 --> 00:52:14.849
What's a time where pursuit of your masculinity empowered you?
00:52:15.000 --> 00:52:25.469
I think really with my son, I, I think it's, it's just kind of like, um, he is like a very masculine boy.
00:52:25.469 --> 00:52:27.090
He's very like, uh.
00:52:27.809 --> 00:52:32.340
Has an easy time identifying with his gender, uh, as a boy.
00:52:32.429 --> 00:52:47.130
And so for me it's like finding ways in myself to show up in ways that are like strong and self-confident and like comfortable in being a man.
00:52:47.804 --> 00:52:58.605
And at the same time are like things that I'm like that, that I want him to take after, that I feel like are of service to the world and of benefit to the people that will be in his life.
00:52:58.605 --> 00:53:03.105
And so I feel like that's like just the, the, the experience of raising a boy.
00:53:03.134 --> 00:53:09.105
And I think that the thing that I wanna say there is like, when we look at like what it is, what does it mean to be masculine?
00:53:09.105 --> 00:53:11.864
It's like we can't claim sole ownership.
00:53:12.014 --> 00:53:13.844
Sole ownership of any virtue.
00:53:14.173 --> 00:53:30.838
I, I, I think the, I think the, the terrible thing is, and when we start talk about what's masculine and what's feminine, if you try to say that these are masculine virtues and those are feminine virtues, you're, you're gonna end up with a messed up, um, conversation because everybody can develop every virtue.
00:53:31.139 --> 00:53:32.878
And so the idea is.
00:53:33.795 --> 00:53:48.164
Masculinity is like this, this ability to like, um, to frame myself as a man and my culture, um, and to sort of like have these identifiers that like my, my culture associates with, with manliness and with masculinity.
00:53:48.465 --> 00:53:57.195
But it doesn't mean to have virtues that women aren't allowed to have or to avoid virtues that women are supposed to exhibit.
00:53:57.434 --> 00:53:57.554
Yeah.
00:53:57.554 --> 00:53:59.804
That's one of the, the kind of key concepts.
00:53:59.804 --> 00:54:01.875
So Richard Reeve's work is what inspired.
00:54:02.625 --> 00:54:08.414
Me to finally have something to say on these things in a way that was cogent and masculine.
00:54:08.445 --> 00:54:12.855
The, the best way I've heard it framed is it's descriptive, not prescriptive.
00:54:13.364 --> 00:54:22.815
Meaning that we can name something that many men have and acknowledge that that's masculine and figure out what to do with our culture with that, without saying that women can't have it or men must have it.
00:54:22.965 --> 00:54:24.855
I'm really glad you're in the world doing the work you're doing, men.
00:54:25.244 --> 00:54:25.454
Yeah.
00:54:25.454 --> 00:54:25.664
Thanks.
00:54:26.534 --> 00:54:29.295
I, I really love.
00:54:30.150 --> 00:54:33.750
Talking to competent people from the perspective that makes me uncomfortable.
00:54:34.469 --> 00:54:35.190
Oh, cool.
00:54:35.670 --> 00:54:39.420
And you've done a fantastic job of that today, so I really appreciate you.
00:54:40.469 --> 00:54:41.099
Thanks, man.
00:54:41.429 --> 00:54:42.960
It's, and great, great to talk to you.
00:54:42.960 --> 00:54:43.920
Great to meet you.
00:54:43.980 --> 00:54:47.099
Um, thanks so much for the work that you're doing and for this podcast.
00:54:47.460 --> 00:54:48.719
Yeah, I look forward to staying connected.
00:54:48.809 --> 00:54:49.380
Awesome, man.
00:54:49.800 --> 00:54:52.409
If people were looking for you, where should they find you?
00:54:52.650 --> 00:54:57.659
So, I hide, I, I, I'm, I'm boycotting social media, but I have a website.
00:54:58.423 --> 00:55:03.644
You can read my writings of, you know, finding me on, on your bookshop.
00:55:03.943 --> 00:55:09.074
You can, um, find like, you know, interviews and videos that I've done and podcasts that I've done.
00:55:09.525 --> 00:55:16.005
Um, you know, and then Tim desmond.net is like a place that, you know, puts a, that I have a handful of interviews and things like that.
00:55:16.153 --> 00:55:18.255
And that's where they'd find you to connect for coaching as well?
00:55:18.259 --> 00:55:18.500
Yeah.
00:55:18.505 --> 00:55:18.735
Yeah.
00:55:18.735 --> 00:55:20.565
If they wanted to find me, uh, in private practice.
00:55:20.565 --> 00:55:20.744
Yeah.
00:55:21.344 --> 00:55:21.614
Great.
00:55:22.335 --> 00:55:22.724
All right, man.
00:55:22.724 --> 00:55:23.295
Thanks for coming on.
00:55:23.820 --> 00:55:24.420
Yeah, thanks.
00:55:24.599 --> 00:55:24.690
Bye.
00:55:25.230 --> 00:55:28.139
And that's our conversation with Tim Desmond, I hope you got as much out of it as I did.
00:55:28.139 --> 00:55:29.880
If you did, do me a favor and subscribe.
00:55:30.059 --> 00:55:33.599
We're really close to getting some numbers that are really gonna start helping guys find us.
00:55:33.659 --> 00:55:35.309
So please take a moment and do that.
00:55:35.369 --> 00:55:39.179
As always, we like to fact check around here and in this episode, there were only a few things that need clarification.
00:55:39.239 --> 00:55:41.070
The first one is suffering less.
00:55:41.460 --> 00:55:46.170
We didn't mean it like pretending there wasn't any suffering going on or eliminating all suffering.
00:55:46.590 --> 00:55:50.190
It's about reducing how much unprocessed suffering drives your behavior.
00:55:50.400 --> 00:55:51.840
The mechanism is an avoidance.
00:55:52.019 --> 00:55:53.340
It's understanding and integration.
00:55:53.849 --> 00:55:56.070
The second one is discussions around fear.
00:55:56.219 --> 00:55:58.170
It was broadly accurate, but there's some nuance here.
00:55:58.440 --> 00:56:01.289
Fear isn't only body sensation and fearful thoughts.
00:56:01.440 --> 00:56:08.280
Those two systems are central, but they produce downstream behaviors like freezing avoidance or flight, and levels of conscious awareness.
00:56:08.309 --> 00:56:14.489
Those behaviors don't exist separately from the physiological and cognition, but they're part of fear and how it shows up in your life.
00:56:14.534 --> 00:56:16.784
The third one is when we were talking about compassion.
00:56:17.144 --> 00:56:22.034
It's worth clarifying that compassion isn't sympathy both psychology and ethics.
00:56:22.034 --> 00:56:25.335
Compassion implies a motivation to act or relieve suffering.
00:56:25.545 --> 00:56:28.693
It's not just noticing pain, it's responding skillfully to it.
00:56:29.503 --> 00:56:34.724
And the last one is, when we refer to the four foundations of mindfulness, language is informal.
00:56:35.023 --> 00:56:37.244
Apparently the accurate framework is.
00:56:37.480 --> 00:56:40.809
Mindfulness of body, feelings, mind, and mental phenomena.
00:56:41.110 --> 00:56:43.719
Those are sometimes called dharmas or objects of mind.
00:56:43.780 --> 00:56:49.090
The conversation was correct and the structure was correct, but the wording was a little bit more casual than maybe some people would be comfortable with.
00:56:49.300 --> 00:56:53.710
So all in, Tim's been doing this a long time, and so there wasn't anything terribly, terribly wrong.
00:56:53.710 --> 00:57:00.010
I just wanted to make sure that we got you the clarifications so that way in case there was any chance of misunderstanding that we had it for you.
00:57:00.789 --> 00:57:06.159
As always, this is Tim Winkie with American Masculinity, thanking you for being the guy that's trying to be better, and we'll see you next time.