Paul Miller: Welcome Tech for Good with Bethnal Ventures. I'm Paul Miller and today is great to be joined by Amy Kinton, Executive Director of Organise. ⁓ Organise is building something quite different in world of work and tech. ⁓ Over the past few years, they've helped of thousands of workers take collective action in their workplaces. And recently, they've been developing some new tools, ⁓ including ⁓ an AI early warning system.
Amy: you
Paul Miller: to help workers better understand and respond to changes driven by AI. been working with Organise for a while now and the tackling a problem really sits at the intersection of tech, power and the future of work. And yeah, it's been fantastic to work with them over the years. Amy, it's great to have you on the show.
Amy: Thanks so much for having me.
Paul Miller: So to start off, tell us what Organise is today and how that's evolved from the original idea.
Amy: Yes, So Organise Today, probably not a surprise in the kind of startup world, does look quite different to originally kind of what we may be set out to build, although the kind of ⁓ and mission is the same. So Organise Today ⁓ in essence, ⁓ online platform that's used by more than million people in the UK to change things for the better at work. So that looks like in practice. is that you join sort of online, you get verified and then you can safely and anonymously talk about work. You can get support, you can get advice from colleagues, from peers, and you can use online tools that we've built to run effective campaigns to change things at work. so that might look like taking action in your workplace. So for example, ⁓ got a whole bunch of co-op workers at the moment who are campaigning to stop loan working in co-op stores. or it might look like a national campaign. So we've had lots of campaigns, for example, to increase the minimum wage or stop firing rehire. So it goes across the whole spectrum, workers campaigning stuff that's on a quite a micro workplace level right up to systems change. Whereas when, I think when we ⁓ conceptualised Organise, ⁓ wasn't a million miles away, ⁓ the original focus was more on... women's rights and like maternity rights at work. that came from a real ⁓ of origin personal story as like a group of young women at work who were not a particularly good time and like we didn't have the support or the kind of infrastructure that we felt like we needed in place. the kind most obvious thing to do is like build it yourself. And ⁓ I think over we realized that ⁓ actually what was applicable in terms of campaigning for or building the kind of tech infrastructure to campaign on women's rights and maternity rights at work is actually just applicable to like any workplace challenge. And that's when Organise just really started to scale was when we kind of opened it up and we're like, let's just use this for anything that's going on at work, right?
Paul Miller: Yeah. And what were the lessons in the early days that you learned that you put into action and help that growth?
Amy: I think, well, this is going to sound slightly counterintuitive terms of kind of building a tech product. But one thing that's been the sort of most important learning and like really consistent throughout ⁓ has the importance of that like safety and anonymity function. So although we sort know who you are because when you sign up, you're verified and that means you kind of a few questions that personalize your journey on the platform. When you're actually on platform itself, kind of ⁓ in your workplace group or sort of in a national group, you are anonymous. And that has been just consistently like the one thing that people have asked for, which obviously makes sense, right? If you're slightly vulnerable at work, you want to put your and your pace code and all that kind of stuff out into the world. ⁓ But ⁓ in of kind of core principles, I suppose, of like building a tech product, ⁓ it adds quite significant into the flow, right, to be asking you to verify some details, some questions, personalize your journey. ⁓ for us, it's been absolutely worth it because that sort of protection function for our workers is the reason they trust us. And we definitely wouldn't have grown without trust. yeah, although slightly counterintuitive, it's been the one thing for us actually that's been most important.
Paul Miller: Yeah, you made it harder to use in order to make it easier to use. And I mean, one thing that stands out for me is that, I I think there's a lot of conversation about stuff at work, but organise is very much about going from, it's not just chat, it's action, isn't it? It's people actually, how do you managed to get that to happen? Because you know, it actually help people to try and take action rather than just sort of moan about things basically.
Amy: Yeah, that's a good way to put it. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yes, well, I think getting like, well, with any kind of startup or like idea, right, you have to get just so granular in terms of what is the actual problem that like really sits underneath this, right, what we actually trying to fix. And I think in those kind of initial couple of years, while we were just like testing and iterating, we really able to zone in on. ⁓ three specific barriers that are like what's of stopping a worker or what's kind of keeping a worker stuck that kind moaning or conversation and then ⁓ gets them kind of moving into action. And also, right, I guess going back to that sort of origin story of organise, ⁓ we all, we were kind of building something that we had wanted as well, which I think ⁓ goes a long way, right? Like if you really understand problem you're trying to fix, that gives you such a leg up.
Paul Miller: Mmm.
Amy: So the three main kind of barriers that are kind of pretty universal for workers are using organized is that what keeps them stuck is a lack of confidence or a lack of a network and lack of tools to kind of get started. ⁓ And three things might look different to ⁓ of ⁓ but everyone has at least one of those things going on for them. So for example, We learned really quickly. think probably where we started was just building the best tools we possibly could, which is a real sort ⁓ tech mindset to bring to it. So what are the best online tools we can be building to help people organise at work? But actually, if you don't that what might be connected to that is having a lack of confidence to use them, ⁓ because you've never been a position of power at work before. why would you? suddenly sort of make that leap into thinking you could sort of organise to change anything. And same right, you can have like the best sort of organising tools but also if you don't have a network of colleagues or of peers or even of like friends that you feel like you can share stuff with, it's a bit of a non-starter. And I think where that sort of confidence piece in is firstly building that safety and like anonymity feature in, that was probably the biggest sort of step change for us. we also have like thresholds on all of our products. So say for example, if you ⁓ running like an anonymous survey with your colleagues to up a picture of like what's going on at work, ⁓ you set it so that nothing would get sent to your company or nothing would kind of get published in your workplace group ⁓ until reaches a certain number of people that you've decided. So you might say, you know, kind of anonymous until it Well, it's always anonymous, but everything's of behind the scenes until like 50 people have taken my survey, for example. ⁓ that takes out some of the like awkwardness, or like potential embarrassment of sort of launching into something and then like one person doing it. So there's of things within the products that we've built to help confidence. And the same with networks, right? Like that's why we built Hub. So when you join Organise and you tell us, um, either your workplace or any sort of number of workplaces you have. Lots of people are multi-employed. We then pop you in, say, for example, you know, you work at a co-op and, um, that then automatically sort of brings you together with all the other people who are using organise who say they work at a co-op. So it means, you know, particularly because we know, uh, from co-op workers that loan working is a problem for them at the moment. You're not going to get particularly far if you're trying to organise in your co-op store, if it's just you on shift.
Paul Miller: Yep, just you, yeah.
Amy: Whereas, you know, we've got like 10,000 co-op workers who use the organised platform. And so all of a sudden you're kind of in this world of being able to say like, is it just me or, you know, X, Y, Z? And then you get a load of other people chiming in and that sense of understanding and like sort of solidarity from people who are all over the place and who you're probably never going to meet, but who have a similar work experience to you. just goes so far, like there's so much strength in numbers and all our products are designed to kind of scoop up as many people as possible so that it's not just you on your own trying of going out on a limb to try and organise on your own. It's about helping you find as many sort of workers in a similar situation. And then kind of then you can start to use our online tools once you've got that. But yeah, those three things kind of connect together, I think.
Paul Miller: Mm. Great. And you've been building more recently this AI early warning system. Tell us a bit about that. Tell us where that came from and what you're trying to do.
Amy: Yes, I'm so excited about this. Well, so in terms of where it came from, I think there's probably a bit of a two-part answer to that, right? Because firstly, we're a tech platform, kind of first and foremost, right? So we're always on the lookout for what's new, what's innovation that could impact our own work. And so we've spent the last couple of years ourselves getting quite excited about how AI could... completely change our own ways of working. And then the kind of second part of that is from our users. ⁓ how ⁓ great are organized come to be is basically spotting user pattern on the platform. ⁓ And started seeing signs probably, maybe ⁓ a more than a year ago now, maybe like 18 months ago, where there was really sharp increase in workers talking about AI on the platform, whether that was sharing their experiences or sort of asking for help or just trying to sort of navigate it a little bit. And really interestingly, the kind of sentiment around AI seemed to be ⁓ really like a fear around it in that, you know, for lots of people who use organise, they're lower paid or precarious work. And so they're already in quite a sort of dire work situation and the thought that anything could make that is really appealing. So it definitely wasn't a sense of like ⁓ doom and ⁓
Paul Miller: Hmm. Hmm.
Amy: hate AI, hate technology, the concern was really around in how it was happening. ⁓ which makes sense, right? If you're in workplace where maybe you don't have a huge amount of power or agency ⁓ and decide on your behalf, there's no reason to believe that ⁓ introducing AI be the same. ⁓ There's a ⁓ a bit a trust gap there. And so we spotted that there this just huge gap in. literacy and support for workers to actually kind of understand what AI might mean for them. All these rollouts are just happening in like such rapid time, no one was really explaining to workers what literally might mean for your job, really. So that's why we developed what we've been calling the AI early warning system, ⁓ which in is the UK's first live dashboard tracking AI rollouts at some of the UK's biggest employers. And it's built on data of workers own experiences and sort of helping those workers advocate for safer AI rollouts. ⁓
Paul Miller: What are some of the examples of the kinds of AI rollouts that people are ⁓ worried about?
Amy: So the main, well, what I think is the kind of most interesting gap in terms of what we're uncovering versus, I suppose, ⁓ it feels like gets talked about in, you know, sort of more public spaces around AI. And even sort of the government's own, you know, the government's published a lot of materials about, for to sort of help you navigate AI at work. ⁓ They're just based on office work. So, you know, if you're in an office and you ⁓ type or you're
Paul Miller: Mm.
Amy: doing data entry or things like that, a lot of advice on how to get up to speed with TrackGPT. Whereas most of the workers that are using Organise, they are in more ⁓ practical So for example, they work in supermarkets ⁓ or sort of forms of retail, or they in hospitality, for example, or they just ⁓ practical jobs like cabs or driving trains and things that. And for them, we know that a huge amount of AI software is being introduced that is on the surface, sort of badged as helping with like stock taking or helping with monitoring of sort of, know, customers in and out and things like that. So sort of camera based software. But actually once you kind of peel back workers own experience with it. you quite quickly build up a picture of actually workers day to day sort of work life is getting a lot worse because actually they're having a really sharp increase in monitoring and decisions being made by AI sort of behalf of them. Where for example, so ⁓ stock taking, like generator stock taking software, which is now being used in quite a lot of supermarkets. The output that at the moment is that it massively increases your targets for what you should be doing. in a way that's actually just unfeasible for most workers. We've heard, for example, from a Sainsbury's delivery driver who was just like, I've just put my back out because I just can't unload boxes literally this fast. Because the moment, all of us that using AI, we're all just guinea pigs for it. All these systems need to be refined and made better. And fine for someone like me who's using it ⁓ and a lot of agency to use it.
Paul Miller: Mmm.
Amy: you know, and adapt it to make my working life better. But if you aren't in a position like that at work, you know, taking the next two years to kind of be a guinea pig for some AI software is, it's too long. Like you're just having an absolutely shocking time with it. that's the kind of, that's the gap that we're quite quickly being able to fill, I think, is actually being able to at for the first time, work out is actually workers experience ⁓ of AI of in the workplace and what might we be able to do about it.
Paul Miller: Yeah, and so what's the use case if you like for the dashboard and so on? are you hoping comes out?
Amy: So a couple of things. So the first thing, guess, kind of step one of what we're doing building that really kind of comprehensive picture, So particularly lower paid and precarious workers, what is going on? And then second part of that ⁓ is using data to empower workers. So ⁓ coming back that point around there being a real core sort of literacy and confidence gap with workers being able to Firstly, know the AI is being used in their workplace then ⁓ able to feel confident enough to talk about it and sort of advocate for a sort of fairer ⁓ rollout. This of data set gives workers that because it benchmarks sort of your company against other companies that, ⁓ you sort of do similar things, other kind of supermarkets, for example. And it equips with the sort of some of the organized tools that help you organise in your workplace. but also some kind of AI specific ones that are a bit more sort of knowledge-based and sort of build up your literacy. That mean you can kind of take your data back to your company and while you're doing workplace campaigning, you've got this like massive data set that for the first time tells you, okay, our company has scored, you know, pretty low for, for example, transparency or accountability on how AI is being used compared to. you know, our three competitors, for example, and here's what they did to fix that gap. So it gives it gives workers a lot more power to be kind of having those conversations. then thirdly, I think we're hoping that this ⁓ rich kind of data set and this public dashboard that we're creating ⁓ be used to implement the national conversation because there just is such a gap ⁓ you people who don't ⁓ work offices. ⁓
Paul Miller: Yeah.
Amy: how we put guardrails on AI and the conversation kind of at the moment is pretty dominated by tech companies, it's quite sort of academically focused on the hypotheticals of you know where might get into in the future. Whereas think what we're hoping our contribution looks like is actually saying look this is what you know 20 000 workers are saying is happening right here right now about how how AI is affecting them at work, what are to do about it?
Paul Miller: Amazing. how, I mean, I always thought this was quite interesting about organise. You don't just measure your impact in terms of the number of people who are using organise. You have this idea of like, people have actually got to take action for you to, for it to be valuable to you, don't you? Talk us a little bit through how you think about the impact of organise as a platform.
Amy: Yes. Yeah, I think, like there's impact, there's impact in the sense ⁓ what, you know, in terms of our sort of mission and vision, ⁓ making of the world of work better for everyone, ⁓ impact us is usually determined by the worker, to be honest. So at the start of a sort of an organized or campaign or ⁓ just sort of
Paul Miller: Right.
Amy: taking sort of conversation on the platform. We ask workers and we support workers to sort of define what change might look like for them. And there's lots of ways we sort of, you know, coach workers to do that. So we're not just being like, you know, here's a blank page, decide what you think the world should look like. We'll help people say, you know, people that have been in situations like you have wanted to do X, Y, Z and things like that. it's ultimately for workers to decide themselves what is going to be the next thing that if they change at work would make their lives better. that quite is to do with pay, quite often is to do with ⁓ conditions. whether that's like AI, for example, who would fit into conditions or working or sort of and safety things, it's a really wide kind of spectrum. But also what I found particularly interesting when I sort of
Paul Miller: You
Amy: know, speak to workers is that they're not just, it's not just paying conditions, which I think is what lots of people think of as sort of what workers' rights is. ⁓ lots of people also use organise to lobby their sort of company from the inside on things, for example, like environmental issues or social issues, where a sort of ⁓ group employees, they have a very strong position to be doing sort of ⁓ internal So had quite a famous campaign a couple of years ago ⁓ Amazon where a group of Amazon workers who you might automatically think, ⁓ if I asked an Amazon worker what's the thing they would want to change at work, probably everyone would say paying conditions. ⁓ actually this group of Amazon workers were just horrified that stock, ⁓ returned stock, ⁓ just being burnt, so just being incinerated. Yeah, was so sort of, and that sort of waste.
Paul Miller: in. the waste.
Amy: ⁓ Thousands and thousands of Amazon workers spotted that pattern across the country and knew it wasn't just their kind of warehouse were able to use the organized platform to just massively expose the scale of the problem and then quite crucially ⁓ Amazon to change their policy on, you know, sounds quite obvious, but just like ⁓ burn everything. And so, yeah, workers themselves, they define what their impact is. And then our job as a platform ⁓ is take them on the right pathway. through ⁓ the sort of automated that we've built. And we have a group of campaign sort of coaches who are like phone of friends as well for people. And that kind combination of those two things together helps people work out what is it that you want to change? What is the impact you want to see? ⁓ And then, okay, think we can help you with that. Let's try taking you down this journey of doing like one thing, then this thing, then this thing.
Paul Miller: Amazing. I mean, you know, just sort of looking back a little bit on organizers journey as well. What's been the highs and the lows, if you like, of trying to build a company in this space? Because it's not a conventional startup space, is it? It's not like, you know, you have genuinely been pushing something different. What have been the highs and lows of that?
Amy: Yeah. Well, mean, the highs, the highs is always the most obvious and the most easy, right? Because able to, like, you know, I could literally until end of time about examples of workers who have won just really meaningful change using Organise, whether that's, you know, in their workplace, like Amazon and sort of ⁓ stopping burning waste, even very recently a bunch of John Lewis workers. won their campaign to bring back the bonus. So that's like 74,000 John Lewis and Waitrose workers who are now getting a bonus for the first time in years. That sense of, gosh, like actually we've built something that sounds so obvious to say like, it really genuinely helps people. But being able to have that sort of day after day as examples of what we're doing.
Paul Miller: Mmm.
Amy: That's definitely the greatest motivator for our team to be able to see actually we can really point to probably thousands by now of ⁓ of workers whose lives are just getting better. gosh, obviously there's so many hard things, Like when ⁓ you're something, can be pretty relentless at times. But I think particularly what's One of the oddities or unique bits of organise, I suppose, that our platform isn't built for individuals. It's built for, it's built for individuals to take collective action. ⁓ And is ⁓ very to most ⁓ tech where what, usually you be trying to build something ⁓ that fits really particular audience type you can kind of code who they are. ⁓ and then you just got to work out how to get them to you. Whereas we have to have a really, really, really solid value proposition because collective behaviour and collective action relies on referrals from workers who are using Organise already to share stuff with their friends and their colleagues. That's how our growth happens. ⁓ It's organic and it happens through that trust network of ⁓ a who's already using Organise. sharing something that they've seen on organise with someone else. On average, people bring about three people with them, which means we can't buy new users, we can't have introductory offers, we can't hook in individuals here and there. We have to just build something that people want to share, which is very authentic and it really fits our model. But it be really hard ⁓ you, you know, we get instant feedback basically, right? Because every time we're building something, we know what's being shared and what's not being shared. And that you have to test like dozens or even hundreds of ideas before you get that thing that really flies. ⁓ And so, it means our platform is very durable. It means that once we've built something and we know it's being shared a lot, we've got the to know that that's... you know, that's something sticky, it's a cool part of our product now. the process to get there can be quite painful.
Paul Miller: Yeah, absolutely. And if you are successful, if Organise achieves what you want, what does the world look like? What's the big aim, if you like?
Amy: ⁓ the big aim. So what I would, you know, day at which I'll be like ⁓ back and relaxing in my deck chair, organised would probably look like LinkedIn for all workers. So by that, I mean ⁓ a that's in your pocket at all times. So whether that's to ask questions, find support, rally your colleagues, we become platform that is just like an ordinary part of daily life. Not necessarily somewhere you just come to once things are getting hard, but a platform where we're in your at all times and you're just using us on the And I find it so interesting because there's so much evidence that workplaces that involve workers ⁓ in ideas or decisions or just workplaces that trust their workers to do their work in a way that suits them are so much more productive, they're so much more durable and they're just quite frankly worth a lot more. And so it feels like, you know, what we're building, yes, it's primarily for workers, it's to give workers a voice, it's to give workers a say and to change things for them. But it also just makes work better, literally for everyone, because companies do so much better out of it if workers are involved themselves.
Paul Miller: Yeah, absolutely. And just finally, guess, we've got a call for Ventures open at the moment for BGV. We're looking for that next generation of founders. Have you got any things that you've learnt along the way that you wish you'd known when you started, as it were? What's your advice for people trying to build in this space in the future?
Amy: mean, I talk. I could talk for like another hour on like ⁓ what I I'd known or like, you know, what we would do differently and all that kind of thing. I think two things. ⁓ One, and might sound slightly contradictory together. We'll see how it feels. But one is really making sure every ⁓
Paul Miller: You
Amy: helps your mission, which sounds so obvious. But once you're in the weeds of building products or on user grace, for example, or like you're raising, it can be, ⁓ it's so to get distracted by the next shiny thing, particularly for example, like, ⁓ you know, you're in cohorts with other startups and you're seeing what other people are doing and what everyone else is doing is always really exciting. And then ⁓ people are kind of throwing ideas at you. And I think. there's such a startup or such as like characteristic of being ⁓ hands on, so focused on like the next thing that we are probably, ⁓ all have the kind of personalities that mean it's quite easy to get distracted. ⁓ so being able to stay so laser focused on like, ⁓ what are decisions that are actually gonna be like a step change that help your mission. is something to just not take for granted because I think, you we always have in the back of our minds like, ⁓ everything we're doing is, you know, in service of our mission. But actually, if we look back over like the last seven or eight years, we've done like a whole bunch of stuff, which has been like hugely exciting and like so interesting and, you know, has had lots of impacts along the way. ⁓ if we had sort of answered that question really very busily while we're making every decision, we probably wouldn't have done lots of of bad stuff. ⁓ But I think the other thing, the others maybe slightly contradictory thing to say to that ⁓ just the importance of being so flexible in ⁓ of from you set out to where you're going to get to probably will look really different ⁓ and won't be able to predict that. ⁓ And think that can be really challenging when you're conversations, for example, with investors who quite rightly. ⁓ want to have the confidence you have thought about what the next couple of years might look like ⁓ that you're not just kind of going on a wing and a prayer and being like, ⁓ I've got a great sort of mission and vision, but who knows what this product is going to end up like. So it can be really difficult to tread that balance you feeling confident enough and projecting enough confidence that you know you're trying to build and what you're trying to get to, but at the same time being very ⁓ humble and to the fact that you're supposed to be doing is just experimenting and like testing and iterating and as long as you do properly and don't just get distracted with lots of exciting you know shiny things you will up in the right place but it can difficult to your nerve when you just don't where that's going to be.
Paul Miller: Yep. Great. Fantastic. Well, Amy, thank you so much for joining us. It's been great to hear more about Organise and more about what doing at the moment. If listening and have suggestions for guests or topics, do get in touch. And if you're building a Tech for Good startup and looking for early stage investment, ⁓ you learn more about Bethnal Green Ventures at bethnalgreenventures.com. That's it for today. Amy, thank you again and thanks for listening.
Amy: you
Paul Miller: to help workers better understand and respond to changes driven by AI. been working with Organise for a while now and the tackling a problem really sits at the intersection of tech, power and the future of work. And yeah, it's been fantastic to work with them over the years. Amy, it's great to have you on the show.
Amy: Thanks so much for having me.
Paul Miller: So to start off, tell us what Organise is today and how that's evolved from the original idea.
Amy: Yes, So Organise Today, probably not a surprise in the kind of startup world, does look quite different to originally kind of what we may be set out to build, although the kind of ⁓ and mission is the same. So Organise Today ⁓ in essence, ⁓ online platform that's used by more than million people in the UK to change things for the better at work. So that looks like in practice. is that you join sort of online, you get verified and then you can safely and anonymously talk about work. You can get support, you can get advice from colleagues, from peers, and you can use online tools that we've built to run effective campaigns to change things at work. so that might look like taking action in your workplace. So for example, ⁓ got a whole bunch of co-op workers at the moment who are campaigning to stop loan working in co-op stores. or it might look like a national campaign. So we've had lots of campaigns, for example, to increase the minimum wage or stop firing rehire. So it goes across the whole spectrum, workers campaigning stuff that's on a quite a micro workplace level right up to systems change. Whereas when, I think when we ⁓ conceptualised Organise, ⁓ wasn't a million miles away, ⁓ the original focus was more on... women's rights and like maternity rights at work. that came from a real ⁓ of origin personal story as like a group of young women at work who were not a particularly good time and like we didn't have the support or the kind of infrastructure that we felt like we needed in place. the kind most obvious thing to do is like build it yourself. And ⁓ I think over we realized that ⁓ actually what was applicable in terms of campaigning for or building the kind of tech infrastructure to campaign on women's rights and maternity rights at work is actually just applicable to like any workplace challenge. And that's when Organise just really started to scale was when we kind of opened it up and we're like, let's just use this for anything that's going on at work, right?
Paul Miller: Yeah. And what were the lessons in the early days that you learned that you put into action and help that growth?
Amy: I think, well, this is going to sound slightly counterintuitive terms of kind of building a tech product. But one thing that's been the sort of most important learning and like really consistent throughout ⁓ has the importance of that like safety and anonymity function. So although we sort know who you are because when you sign up, you're verified and that means you kind of a few questions that personalize your journey on the platform. When you're actually on platform itself, kind of ⁓ in your workplace group or sort of in a national group, you are anonymous. And that has been just consistently like the one thing that people have asked for, which obviously makes sense, right? If you're slightly vulnerable at work, you want to put your and your pace code and all that kind of stuff out into the world. ⁓ But ⁓ in of kind of core principles, I suppose, of like building a tech product, ⁓ it adds quite significant into the flow, right, to be asking you to verify some details, some questions, personalize your journey. ⁓ for us, it's been absolutely worth it because that sort of protection function for our workers is the reason they trust us. And we definitely wouldn't have grown without trust. yeah, although slightly counterintuitive, it's been the one thing for us actually that's been most important.
Paul Miller: Yeah, you made it harder to use in order to make it easier to use. And I mean, one thing that stands out for me is that, I I think there's a lot of conversation about stuff at work, but organise is very much about going from, it's not just chat, it's action, isn't it? It's people actually, how do you managed to get that to happen? Because you know, it actually help people to try and take action rather than just sort of moan about things basically.
Amy: Yeah, that's a good way to put it. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yes, well, I think getting like, well, with any kind of startup or like idea, right, you have to get just so granular in terms of what is the actual problem that like really sits underneath this, right, what we actually trying to fix. And I think in those kind of initial couple of years, while we were just like testing and iterating, we really able to zone in on. ⁓ three specific barriers that are like what's of stopping a worker or what's kind of keeping a worker stuck that kind moaning or conversation and then ⁓ gets them kind of moving into action. And also, right, I guess going back to that sort of origin story of organise, ⁓ we all, we were kind of building something that we had wanted as well, which I think ⁓ goes a long way, right? Like if you really understand problem you're trying to fix, that gives you such a leg up.
Paul Miller: Mmm.
Amy: So the three main kind of barriers that are kind of pretty universal for workers are using organized is that what keeps them stuck is a lack of confidence or a lack of a network and lack of tools to kind of get started. ⁓ And three things might look different to ⁓ of ⁓ but everyone has at least one of those things going on for them. So for example, We learned really quickly. think probably where we started was just building the best tools we possibly could, which is a real sort ⁓ tech mindset to bring to it. So what are the best online tools we can be building to help people organise at work? But actually, if you don't that what might be connected to that is having a lack of confidence to use them, ⁓ because you've never been a position of power at work before. why would you? suddenly sort of make that leap into thinking you could sort of organise to change anything. And same right, you can have like the best sort of organising tools but also if you don't have a network of colleagues or of peers or even of like friends that you feel like you can share stuff with, it's a bit of a non-starter. And I think where that sort of confidence piece in is firstly building that safety and like anonymity feature in, that was probably the biggest sort of step change for us. we also have like thresholds on all of our products. So say for example, if you ⁓ running like an anonymous survey with your colleagues to up a picture of like what's going on at work, ⁓ you set it so that nothing would get sent to your company or nothing would kind of get published in your workplace group ⁓ until reaches a certain number of people that you've decided. So you might say, you know, kind of anonymous until it Well, it's always anonymous, but everything's of behind the scenes until like 50 people have taken my survey, for example. ⁓ that takes out some of the like awkwardness, or like potential embarrassment of sort of launching into something and then like one person doing it. So there's of things within the products that we've built to help confidence. And the same with networks, right? Like that's why we built Hub. So when you join Organise and you tell us, um, either your workplace or any sort of number of workplaces you have. Lots of people are multi-employed. We then pop you in, say, for example, you know, you work at a co-op and, um, that then automatically sort of brings you together with all the other people who are using organise who say they work at a co-op. So it means, you know, particularly because we know, uh, from co-op workers that loan working is a problem for them at the moment. You're not going to get particularly far if you're trying to organise in your co-op store, if it's just you on shift.
Paul Miller: Yep, just you, yeah.
Amy: Whereas, you know, we've got like 10,000 co-op workers who use the organised platform. And so all of a sudden you're kind of in this world of being able to say like, is it just me or, you know, X, Y, Z? And then you get a load of other people chiming in and that sense of understanding and like sort of solidarity from people who are all over the place and who you're probably never going to meet, but who have a similar work experience to you. just goes so far, like there's so much strength in numbers and all our products are designed to kind of scoop up as many people as possible so that it's not just you on your own trying of going out on a limb to try and organise on your own. It's about helping you find as many sort of workers in a similar situation. And then kind of then you can start to use our online tools once you've got that. But yeah, those three things kind of connect together, I think.
Paul Miller: Mm. Great. And you've been building more recently this AI early warning system. Tell us a bit about that. Tell us where that came from and what you're trying to do.
Amy: Yes, I'm so excited about this. Well, so in terms of where it came from, I think there's probably a bit of a two-part answer to that, right? Because firstly, we're a tech platform, kind of first and foremost, right? So we're always on the lookout for what's new, what's innovation that could impact our own work. And so we've spent the last couple of years ourselves getting quite excited about how AI could... completely change our own ways of working. And then the kind of second part of that is from our users. ⁓ how ⁓ great are organized come to be is basically spotting user pattern on the platform. ⁓ And started seeing signs probably, maybe ⁓ a more than a year ago now, maybe like 18 months ago, where there was really sharp increase in workers talking about AI on the platform, whether that was sharing their experiences or sort of asking for help or just trying to sort of navigate it a little bit. And really interestingly, the kind of sentiment around AI seemed to be ⁓ really like a fear around it in that, you know, for lots of people who use organise, they're lower paid or precarious work. And so they're already in quite a sort of dire work situation and the thought that anything could make that is really appealing. So it definitely wasn't a sense of like ⁓ doom and ⁓
Paul Miller: Hmm. Hmm.
Amy: hate AI, hate technology, the concern was really around in how it was happening. ⁓ which makes sense, right? If you're in workplace where maybe you don't have a huge amount of power or agency ⁓ and decide on your behalf, there's no reason to believe that ⁓ introducing AI be the same. ⁓ There's a ⁓ a bit a trust gap there. And so we spotted that there this just huge gap in. literacy and support for workers to actually kind of understand what AI might mean for them. All these rollouts are just happening in like such rapid time, no one was really explaining to workers what literally might mean for your job, really. So that's why we developed what we've been calling the AI early warning system, ⁓ which in is the UK's first live dashboard tracking AI rollouts at some of the UK's biggest employers. And it's built on data of workers own experiences and sort of helping those workers advocate for safer AI rollouts. ⁓
Paul Miller: What are some of the examples of the kinds of AI rollouts that people are ⁓ worried about?
Amy: So the main, well, what I think is the kind of most interesting gap in terms of what we're uncovering versus, I suppose, ⁓ it feels like gets talked about in, you know, sort of more public spaces around AI. And even sort of the government's own, you know, the government's published a lot of materials about, for to sort of help you navigate AI at work. ⁓ They're just based on office work. So, you know, if you're in an office and you ⁓ type or you're
Paul Miller: Mm.
Amy: doing data entry or things like that, a lot of advice on how to get up to speed with TrackGPT. Whereas most of the workers that are using Organise, they are in more ⁓ practical So for example, they work in supermarkets ⁓ or sort of forms of retail, or they in hospitality, for example, or they just ⁓ practical jobs like cabs or driving trains and things that. And for them, we know that a huge amount of AI software is being introduced that is on the surface, sort of badged as helping with like stock taking or helping with monitoring of sort of, know, customers in and out and things like that. So sort of camera based software. But actually once you kind of peel back workers own experience with it. you quite quickly build up a picture of actually workers day to day sort of work life is getting a lot worse because actually they're having a really sharp increase in monitoring and decisions being made by AI sort of behalf of them. Where for example, so ⁓ stock taking, like generator stock taking software, which is now being used in quite a lot of supermarkets. The output that at the moment is that it massively increases your targets for what you should be doing. in a way that's actually just unfeasible for most workers. We've heard, for example, from a Sainsbury's delivery driver who was just like, I've just put my back out because I just can't unload boxes literally this fast. Because the moment, all of us that using AI, we're all just guinea pigs for it. All these systems need to be refined and made better. And fine for someone like me who's using it ⁓ and a lot of agency to use it.
Paul Miller: Mmm.
Amy: you know, and adapt it to make my working life better. But if you aren't in a position like that at work, you know, taking the next two years to kind of be a guinea pig for some AI software is, it's too long. Like you're just having an absolutely shocking time with it. that's the kind of, that's the gap that we're quite quickly being able to fill, I think, is actually being able to at for the first time, work out is actually workers experience ⁓ of AI of in the workplace and what might we be able to do about it.
Paul Miller: Yeah, and so what's the use case if you like for the dashboard and so on? are you hoping comes out?
Amy: So a couple of things. So the first thing, guess, kind of step one of what we're doing building that really kind of comprehensive picture, So particularly lower paid and precarious workers, what is going on? And then second part of that ⁓ is using data to empower workers. So ⁓ coming back that point around there being a real core sort of literacy and confidence gap with workers being able to Firstly, know the AI is being used in their workplace then ⁓ able to feel confident enough to talk about it and sort of advocate for a sort of fairer ⁓ rollout. This of data set gives workers that because it benchmarks sort of your company against other companies that, ⁓ you sort of do similar things, other kind of supermarkets, for example. And it equips with the sort of some of the organized tools that help you organise in your workplace. but also some kind of AI specific ones that are a bit more sort of knowledge-based and sort of build up your literacy. That mean you can kind of take your data back to your company and while you're doing workplace campaigning, you've got this like massive data set that for the first time tells you, okay, our company has scored, you know, pretty low for, for example, transparency or accountability on how AI is being used compared to. you know, our three competitors, for example, and here's what they did to fix that gap. So it gives it gives workers a lot more power to be kind of having those conversations. then thirdly, I think we're hoping that this ⁓ rich kind of data set and this public dashboard that we're creating ⁓ be used to implement the national conversation because there just is such a gap ⁓ you people who don't ⁓ work offices. ⁓
Paul Miller: Yeah.
Amy: how we put guardrails on AI and the conversation kind of at the moment is pretty dominated by tech companies, it's quite sort of academically focused on the hypotheticals of you know where might get into in the future. Whereas think what we're hoping our contribution looks like is actually saying look this is what you know 20 000 workers are saying is happening right here right now about how how AI is affecting them at work, what are to do about it?
Paul Miller: Amazing. how, I mean, I always thought this was quite interesting about organise. You don't just measure your impact in terms of the number of people who are using organise. You have this idea of like, people have actually got to take action for you to, for it to be valuable to you, don't you? Talk us a little bit through how you think about the impact of organise as a platform.
Amy: Yes. Yeah, I think, like there's impact, there's impact in the sense ⁓ what, you know, in terms of our sort of mission and vision, ⁓ making of the world of work better for everyone, ⁓ impact us is usually determined by the worker, to be honest. So at the start of a sort of an organized or campaign or ⁓ just sort of
Paul Miller: Right.
Amy: taking sort of conversation on the platform. We ask workers and we support workers to sort of define what change might look like for them. And there's lots of ways we sort of, you know, coach workers to do that. So we're not just being like, you know, here's a blank page, decide what you think the world should look like. We'll help people say, you know, people that have been in situations like you have wanted to do X, Y, Z and things like that. it's ultimately for workers to decide themselves what is going to be the next thing that if they change at work would make their lives better. that quite is to do with pay, quite often is to do with ⁓ conditions. whether that's like AI, for example, who would fit into conditions or working or sort of and safety things, it's a really wide kind of spectrum. But also what I found particularly interesting when I sort of
Paul Miller: You
Amy: know, speak to workers is that they're not just, it's not just paying conditions, which I think is what lots of people think of as sort of what workers' rights is. ⁓ lots of people also use organise to lobby their sort of company from the inside on things, for example, like environmental issues or social issues, where a sort of ⁓ group employees, they have a very strong position to be doing sort of ⁓ internal So had quite a famous campaign a couple of years ago ⁓ Amazon where a group of Amazon workers who you might automatically think, ⁓ if I asked an Amazon worker what's the thing they would want to change at work, probably everyone would say paying conditions. ⁓ actually this group of Amazon workers were just horrified that stock, ⁓ returned stock, ⁓ just being burnt, so just being incinerated. Yeah, was so sort of, and that sort of waste.
Paul Miller: in. the waste.
Amy: ⁓ Thousands and thousands of Amazon workers spotted that pattern across the country and knew it wasn't just their kind of warehouse were able to use the organized platform to just massively expose the scale of the problem and then quite crucially ⁓ Amazon to change their policy on, you know, sounds quite obvious, but just like ⁓ burn everything. And so, yeah, workers themselves, they define what their impact is. And then our job as a platform ⁓ is take them on the right pathway. through ⁓ the sort of automated that we've built. And we have a group of campaign sort of coaches who are like phone of friends as well for people. And that kind combination of those two things together helps people work out what is it that you want to change? What is the impact you want to see? ⁓ And then, okay, think we can help you with that. Let's try taking you down this journey of doing like one thing, then this thing, then this thing.
Paul Miller: Amazing. I mean, you know, just sort of looking back a little bit on organizers journey as well. What's been the highs and the lows, if you like, of trying to build a company in this space? Because it's not a conventional startup space, is it? It's not like, you know, you have genuinely been pushing something different. What have been the highs and lows of that?
Amy: Yeah. Well, mean, the highs, the highs is always the most obvious and the most easy, right? Because able to, like, you know, I could literally until end of time about examples of workers who have won just really meaningful change using Organise, whether that's, you know, in their workplace, like Amazon and sort of ⁓ stopping burning waste, even very recently a bunch of John Lewis workers. won their campaign to bring back the bonus. So that's like 74,000 John Lewis and Waitrose workers who are now getting a bonus for the first time in years. That sense of, gosh, like actually we've built something that sounds so obvious to say like, it really genuinely helps people. But being able to have that sort of day after day as examples of what we're doing.
Paul Miller: Mmm.
Amy: That's definitely the greatest motivator for our team to be able to see actually we can really point to probably thousands by now of ⁓ of workers whose lives are just getting better. gosh, obviously there's so many hard things, Like when ⁓ you're something, can be pretty relentless at times. But I think particularly what's One of the oddities or unique bits of organise, I suppose, that our platform isn't built for individuals. It's built for, it's built for individuals to take collective action. ⁓ And is ⁓ very to most ⁓ tech where what, usually you be trying to build something ⁓ that fits really particular audience type you can kind of code who they are. ⁓ and then you just got to work out how to get them to you. Whereas we have to have a really, really, really solid value proposition because collective behaviour and collective action relies on referrals from workers who are using Organise already to share stuff with their friends and their colleagues. That's how our growth happens. ⁓ It's organic and it happens through that trust network of ⁓ a who's already using Organise. sharing something that they've seen on organise with someone else. On average, people bring about three people with them, which means we can't buy new users, we can't have introductory offers, we can't hook in individuals here and there. We have to just build something that people want to share, which is very authentic and it really fits our model. But it be really hard ⁓ you, you know, we get instant feedback basically, right? Because every time we're building something, we know what's being shared and what's not being shared. And that you have to test like dozens or even hundreds of ideas before you get that thing that really flies. ⁓ And so, it means our platform is very durable. It means that once we've built something and we know it's being shared a lot, we've got the to know that that's... you know, that's something sticky, it's a cool part of our product now. the process to get there can be quite painful.
Paul Miller: Yeah, absolutely. And if you are successful, if Organise achieves what you want, what does the world look like? What's the big aim, if you like?
Amy: ⁓ the big aim. So what I would, you know, day at which I'll be like ⁓ back and relaxing in my deck chair, organised would probably look like LinkedIn for all workers. So by that, I mean ⁓ a that's in your pocket at all times. So whether that's to ask questions, find support, rally your colleagues, we become platform that is just like an ordinary part of daily life. Not necessarily somewhere you just come to once things are getting hard, but a platform where we're in your at all times and you're just using us on the And I find it so interesting because there's so much evidence that workplaces that involve workers ⁓ in ideas or decisions or just workplaces that trust their workers to do their work in a way that suits them are so much more productive, they're so much more durable and they're just quite frankly worth a lot more. And so it feels like, you know, what we're building, yes, it's primarily for workers, it's to give workers a voice, it's to give workers a say and to change things for them. But it also just makes work better, literally for everyone, because companies do so much better out of it if workers are involved themselves.
Paul Miller: Yeah, absolutely. And just finally, guess, we've got a call for Ventures open at the moment for BGV. We're looking for that next generation of founders. Have you got any things that you've learnt along the way that you wish you'd known when you started, as it were? What's your advice for people trying to build in this space in the future?
Amy: mean, I talk. I could talk for like another hour on like ⁓ what I I'd known or like, you know, what we would do differently and all that kind of thing. I think two things. ⁓ One, and might sound slightly contradictory together. We'll see how it feels. But one is really making sure every ⁓
Paul Miller: You
Amy: helps your mission, which sounds so obvious. But once you're in the weeds of building products or on user grace, for example, or like you're raising, it can be, ⁓ it's so to get distracted by the next shiny thing, particularly for example, like, ⁓ you know, you're in cohorts with other startups and you're seeing what other people are doing and what everyone else is doing is always really exciting. And then ⁓ people are kind of throwing ideas at you. And I think. there's such a startup or such as like characteristic of being ⁓ hands on, so focused on like the next thing that we are probably, ⁓ all have the kind of personalities that mean it's quite easy to get distracted. ⁓ so being able to stay so laser focused on like, ⁓ what are decisions that are actually gonna be like a step change that help your mission. is something to just not take for granted because I think, you we always have in the back of our minds like, ⁓ everything we're doing is, you know, in service of our mission. But actually, if we look back over like the last seven or eight years, we've done like a whole bunch of stuff, which has been like hugely exciting and like so interesting and, you know, has had lots of impacts along the way. ⁓ if we had sort of answered that question really very busily while we're making every decision, we probably wouldn't have done lots of of bad stuff. ⁓ But I think the other thing, the others maybe slightly contradictory thing to say to that ⁓ just the importance of being so flexible in ⁓ of from you set out to where you're going to get to probably will look really different ⁓ and won't be able to predict that. ⁓ And think that can be really challenging when you're conversations, for example, with investors who quite rightly. ⁓ want to have the confidence you have thought about what the next couple of years might look like ⁓ that you're not just kind of going on a wing and a prayer and being like, ⁓ I've got a great sort of mission and vision, but who knows what this product is going to end up like. So it can be really difficult to tread that balance you feeling confident enough and projecting enough confidence that you know you're trying to build and what you're trying to get to, but at the same time being very ⁓ humble and to the fact that you're supposed to be doing is just experimenting and like testing and iterating and as long as you do properly and don't just get distracted with lots of exciting you know shiny things you will up in the right place but it can difficult to your nerve when you just don't where that's going to be.
Paul Miller: Yep. Great. Fantastic. Well, Amy, thank you so much for joining us. It's been great to hear more about Organise and more about what doing at the moment. If listening and have suggestions for guests or topics, do get in touch. And if you're building a Tech for Good startup and looking for early stage investment, ⁓ you learn more about Bethnal Green Ventures at bethnalgreenventures.com. That's it for today. Amy, thank you again and thanks for listening.
