The Burnout Table: Harassment and Bullying in Education

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understanding the dynamic helps to understand why it's harder to report, why it's harder to stand up for yourself and say, hey, this is going on and I'm not okay with it, why it's harder to set boundaries.
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And I think that that's a dynamic that's probably happening.
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A lot with teachers in schools is I can't report because I have to continue to come back to this place every day and I don't want to be treated badly and I depend on the paycheck and or the insurance or whatever it.
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Whatever it is that keeps people in that dynamic.
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I think it's important to address because I think that people can feel shameful for staying in a situation like this.
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A few years ago, I started writing a fictitious story based on my time as an educator.
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It is called Taught, and the story was partially inspired out of anger and frustration fueled by burnout.
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Okay, actually, it was more than partially inspired by anger and frustration fueled by burnout Okay, actually, it was more than partially inspired by anger and frustration.
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But taught has also become a vehicle for me to tell what I thought at the time and in some ways continue to think was and is the real story of teaching.
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I now realize that my perspective is not everyone's perspective, but there are some pieces of taught that resonated with many educators perspective.
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But there are some pieces of taught that resonated with many educators.
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This podcast is an extension of that story and I, a former teacher, will interview other educators, asking them to share how they really feel about the current state of education.
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Why are so many teachers burnout?
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Why are so many like me leaving the field?
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We likely won't solve any problems or come up with any solutions, but we can create a community of voices that maybe begin the conversation around how educators can take back teaching.
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I'm Melissa LaFleur.
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Welcome to TAUT.
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The podcast.
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Today is our first roundtable discussion.
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It's pretty exciting and it's also going to be part one of two parts, so make sure that you tune in next month for our roundtable, as we will continue this discussion.
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For right now, enjoy part one.
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We're trying something new today.
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I have three guests with me, and not only will they be my guests today, they will be part of a series we will be doing over the next six months.
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So pull up your chair and join us at the burnout table, because today we are going to have an enlightening conversation with Melissa Anthony, Sarah Moneris and Amy Schamberg.
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Let me tell you a little bit about each of these wonderful, amazing women.
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Melissa Anthony is a licensed counselor who specializes in trauma and grief, along with the depression and anxiety that often follow.
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Melissa was the trauma program coordinator for one of the largest psychiatric hospitals in Michigan.
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Additionally, she has experience working with folks in crisis with imminent risks, such as suicidal ideation, homicidal ideation and psychosis.
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These days, she has a private practice and works abroad, in Portugal, with her husband and two children.
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I really want to put something funny in there about teachers being homicidal, but I won't.
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Sarah Moneris is a licensed counselor and has owned her own private practice since 2009.
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She is also the founder and CEO of Moneris Collective LLC and the WeSpot.
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She is a writer, blogger, counselor, coach, speaker and podcast host herself.
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Sarah passionately believes in the healing power of vulnerability, that by learning to speak our truth and fully embrace who we are, we become free.
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She loves helping people live a brave life that's in alignment with their truest and most authentic selves.
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Amy Schamberg earned her graduate degree in school psychology from the University of Colorado and worked as a school psychologist in the Denver metro area for over a decade.
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Now, as a certified functional medicine health coach, Amy continues to work in wellness consultancy roles within educational programs throughout Colorado.
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She specializes in mental health, burnout recovery and holistic well-being.
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Having experienced and recovered from her own episodes of burnout, Amy is passionate about helping others build resilience and developing the confidence to prioritize themselves.
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I am so excited and happy to have the three of you here with me.
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Welcome.
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Thanks for having us.
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Thank you, thank you, yes, thank you.
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So we're going to dive right into today's topic.
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Thank, you.
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So we're going to dive right into today's topic.
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The topic is harassment, intimidation and bullying endured by educators.
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Interestingly, as I was doing the research for this, it was really challenging to find studies that were done on educators.
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There's tons of research out there about the harassment, bullying and intimidation of students and what teachers should be doing about that, but it was actually an article in the UK that gave some really good statistics and I do feel like that our system and the UK system have a lot of things in common.
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So let me give you a rundown from the UK Teachers Union.
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That's where this article came from and the article will be linked in today's show notes.
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By the way, in case you're wondering, you know why it's because of everything that I just said.
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But this, I felt like, really summarized at least what I experienced in the classroom and what I've been hearing on the podcast, at least what I experienced in the classroom and what I've been hearing on the podcast.
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So disclaimer if you don't agree with me.
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That's why the disclaimer is in the show notes, because a lot of this is my opinion.
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It's my opinion, we're the same, not necessarily a fact.
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Okay, so here is the excerpt from the article.
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Okay, so here is the excerpt from the article.
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Bullying and harassment can take place in almost any workplace, but education staff are particularly at risk.
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In a survey carried out by the trade union, and that is NASUWT, the teachers union in the UK, in 2019, four out of every five teachers said they had experienced bullying at work.
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So I'm going to read that statistic one more time, because that's a little mind-blowing Four out of five teachers said they had experienced this.
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This high figure reflects that bullying of education staff can come from a range of sources.
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Seventy percent of cases involve a head teacher or senior leader, but others are bullied by peers, parents or students.
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Upward bullying, where senior staff are bullied by junior colleagues, can also be an issue.
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Bullying is especially prevalent in education because the work is uniquely high pressure.
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The never-ending cycle of high stakes inspections and test results, combined with continual change under resourcing and crisis situations, can create an atmosphere of stress and blame where bullying becomes commonplace.
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Okay, so that's where we're leaping off here, from a therapist's perspective.
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I've got three of you here with me today.
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First, I need some understanding of what is the difference when we're talking about harassment, intimidation and bullying.
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Are they three very different things, or are they all part of the same thing?
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Is there an umbrella here?
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What do you, ladies, think?
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all part of the same thing.
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Is there an umbrella here?
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What do you ladies think?
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I'll jump in.
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I mean, you can go online and look for definitions yourself and you'll see really quickly.
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There's a lot of gray area, a lot of gray area.
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Ultimately, it comes down a lot of times to power and control and making someone else feel small.
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But no one in this world is allowed to intimidate or bully you, period, no one.
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Your profession's not your identity.
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At the end of the day, you're human.
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You're allowed your boundaries and you're allowed to disengage if someone's harming and if you don't quite know how you'll figure it out.
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But keep that in mind.
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No one on this earth is allowed to intimidate you, harass you or bully you.
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Period.
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Period.
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Easier said than done in certain teacher environments, though.
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I get that, but just going into that, knowing you don't have to tolerate this because of what your profession is, get other people involved, get eyes involved, get someone else involved.
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Keep I's involved, get someone else involved, keep going up until you get heard.
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Do whatever you need to do.
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I think that's a really good point, melissa, especially the point you don't deserve that.
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I think sometimes in these situations, educators find themselves feeling like this is a colleague or someone that other people respect and if they are to go forward and say something, that there's going to be some sort of recourse or that they're going to be judged, and then they have to show up and work with these people still.
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Typically, the law is on your side.
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It's not okay to bully or harass or intimidate someone in the workplace.
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There are laws about this, and if you are to go to your HR department and make a report, they're not allowed to.
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What am I trying to say?
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They have to protect you, right?
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They can't take action that will put you at further risk, and so typically, there are policies in place and there are trainings that typically have to be completed at the start of each school year, where you get to learn about these things.
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I mean, I know I used to just kind of click through them and not read it all, but if you actually take the time, or on your district website, on your employee portal, you should be able to access what those organizational policies and procedures are so that you have recourse if this happens or at least understand what your protections are.
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So I would encourage everyone to take a look at what those include so that you have a sense of empowerment in case something like this doesn't happen to you.
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I just wanted to add that I think that, whether it's intimidation, bullying or harassment, to me they're all different levels of abuse, right Of being abusive towards someone else, and so I think there maybe if you were to look up the difference, they would be categorized in different levels of severity.
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But I think it's important to realize and understand, if you're in a dynamic where someone is being abusive to you, what that, what that dynamic looks like, because I think understanding the dynamic helps to understand why it's harder to report, why it's harder to stand up for yourself and say, hey, this is going on and I'm not okay with it, why it's harder to set boundaries.
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And I think that that's a dynamic that's probably happening a lot with teachers in schools is I can't report because I have to continue to come back to this place every day and I I don't want to be treated badly and I depend on the paycheck and or the insurance or whatever it.
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Whatever it is that keeps people in that dynamic I think it's important to address, because I think that people can feel shameful for staying in a situation like this, but also know that it's not okay to be treated that way, and so that inconsistency can be really confusing for people.
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I think that if I combine everything that you all three said that Melissa starting with not okay, nobody deserves to be treated this way.
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Amy saying there are pathways, no matter where you're working, that you can actually have your issue looked into and that you have protection there by law.
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And Sarah pointing out that this is an abusive situation most of the time, if we're into those three categories and most districts also will define what those things are, what they consider those things to be.
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So that kind of helps us.
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Sometimes too, when somebody says something off color to us, is that harassment?
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Usually go to your HR person and say you know this happened.
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Can you help me clarify?
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Is this a harassment situation?
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Is it reportable?
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But knowing that again, none of us deserve to be in any abusive situation.
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And that kind of leads me into the next area that I wanted to talk about, which is peer bullying.
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So it is that colleague type thing that's happening.
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A teacher I interviewed it's been a few interviews ago mentioned that it was actually.
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I usually ask them to say you know what's one of the most traumatic or sad moments that you've had?
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And hers was one of these issues and she said that she had witnessed in her building that there was a group of teachers that were basically excluding this new teacher.
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They felt this teacher didn't have good classroom management.
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There was a lot of blame and shame towards what was going on with this teacher and the teacher was really struggling.
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She was a first or second year teacher and these were veteran teachers who should have been coming to support or help and, as a result, they were actually doing the other, they were shunning this teacher.
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This is a little bit of a gray area, right.
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I mean, like these.
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I don't know for myself and I witnessed it in my own buildings Is that something I go and talk to somebody about?
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Because?
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Is that something I go and talk to somebody about?
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Because, you know, it's kind of a well, the girls aren't letting me sit with them at lunch, kind of thing, and nobody wants to be that person.
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And I think Sarah too, she brought up a really good point.
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In some situations you can't leave.
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You are dependent.
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You're dependent of the paycheck, the insurance.
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It's a both can be true thing.
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You can know at the core of your being.
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Like I don't deserve this, this is wrong.
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But also, what do I do in the meantime?
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Right, right, um, I.
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If you really feel as if that this is an environment that you are currently stuck in, I would look for ways to just try and foster safety to the best of your ability.
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First and foremost, this is cultural like this is the best of your ability.
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First and foremost, this is cultural Like this is the culture of the school.
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This is above you.
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This is beyond you.
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I understand what you're saying about.
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Do I go to the school and say I can't sit with the cool girls at the lunch table?
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Like?
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I understand that tells me the environment may not be the safest, that you don't feel as if you can go and ask help or that there will be some form of retaliation.
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So look for ways where you can find safety.
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Can you avoid these other teachers?
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Can you send it in an email?
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Can you, if it's the same thing, different days of like.
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This is a moment where I feel shunned or abused or hurt.
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Try and remove yourself from that situation.
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Do what you can to foster that safety for yourself in that environment, because ultimately, I mean, all paths are either we're going to change it, we're going to remove ourself from it, or we're going to accept it and, I think, accepting being bullied or abused in any form.
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You know that's a hard ask, that's a big ask, ask.
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So if I can't depend on my environment to change this for me, how am I going to change this for me?
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Whatever that looks like, sit down, brainstorm, but I still stand with.
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Try and get others involved.
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Go to HR, go to your union, get somebody to help you, because I think I said in the past when, when we were talking about doing this project, if I had a child coming to me saying they were being bullied, the answer would never be go it alone, kid, you're on your own, figure it out.
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The answer would be get support, get eyes, get people to help, and that doesn't change when you become an adult.
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You know it just doesn't.
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You shouldn't have to go it alone.
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Find your support.
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Yeah.
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I think people say all the time I can't wait to get out of high school because then I don't have to deal with this bullying, but I don't think that ever really stops, unfortunately.
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It just transfers in a lot of ways to the workplace, and being in the school is a really prime place, unfortunately, for those things to continue to play out.
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And I think it's also important to remember that one of the main drivers for human behavior is to want to belong, and so when the teachers who have been there for a long time are not being inclusive of the new teachers, that's hurtful, and I don't.
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I think there's a spectrum right of do you report something like?
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I guess what I'm trying to figure out is where's the line right, where's the line of I need to report this and go to HR and do that, or I need to be an advocate for myself and speak up to these people and say this is hurtful, or do you see differences?
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I think is my question in in the different situations.
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And I just like to share.
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I had an experience very similar to what you described, melissa, with that teacher at the most recent school I was at.
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I was like ostracized from my mental health team and for whatever reason, I can get into it another time but it was really hard, like I was purposely not being invited to meetings and then I would miss a meeting and then it would be a problem.
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You know, like all of these underhanded, covert, passive, aggressive things that almost like make you think you're kind of crazy.
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You know like you're being gaslit and you know I would talk to my husband about this and I would talk to my friend people who weren't in that building, because I really kind of doubted myself.
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And there was a few times where I called them out, but professionally and respectfully and, of course, like deny, deny, deny, what are you talking about?
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But ultimately like that was the reason that I decided to leave that particular school and I never talked to an administrator about it.
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Interestingly, I became friends with one of the administrators at that building after I had left and shared this experience with her after the fact, and she was like oh my gosh, amy, why didn't you share that with me?
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I would have helped, I would have stepped in and I was like, well, there wasn't like this, like direct bullying happening, there was not direct harassment, right.
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It was kind of like am I making this up?
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And she was validated that I certainly wasn't making it up and I kind of shared my experience with her over those, you know, six to 12 months.
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But there is a lot of like self-doubt and like shame, I think, involved, especially like I think it's almost easier when it's like overt, when it's like obvious, right, that's easy when someone's like screaming at you in the hallway or cussing you out, like other people saw it, heard it like okay, this is a fact.
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But when it's something that is harder to prove as a fact, I think that's when it becomes harder to seek help.
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That resonates with me wholeheartedly.
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My heart goes out to this teacher.
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My heart goes out to you.
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I was in a similar situation where it was absolutely like professional bullying, but it was more low key and everything you're saying.
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You go home and you talk to your husband and you ask your friends and people outside of the building and you think am I crazy?
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Absolutely.
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I mean, this is a great question When's the line, where is that line drawn?
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And there are no blanketed statements here.
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It is very situational.
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But just know if you are feeling bullied out there or intimidated or harassed, yeah, you're not weird, crazy or broken, like it.
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Really it messes with your mind on so many different levels, so many different levels, so many different levels.
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So thank you for sharing that.
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Amy, I had to jump in too and say, hey, I've been there as well.
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Kids who are bullies grow up to be adults who are bullies and it's people suck love a therapist and at the end of the day, it's because, right, they are lacking self-confidence or they are feeling intimidated in their own regard for some reason, or they you know there's something else, but but it it sucks and I don't know.
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I just find someone in your building whom you trust and confide in them.
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Start there, just find someone, even if it's not an administrator, you know, if it's just a colleague.
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Find someone that you trust and confide in them, because I guarantee, when you explain the things to them they'll say, oh my gosh, that is absolutely not okay.
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You know, you're not crazy.
00:22:27.076 --> 00:22:39.211
And when you have someone who's in that environment, who can validate it, then you kind of feel a little bit more comfortable and maybe that person, that trusted friend or colleague in your building, can help you navigate a solution.
00:22:40.213 --> 00:22:40.954
Beautifully put.
00:22:40.954 --> 00:22:42.176
Agreed wholeheartedly.
00:22:42.196 --> 00:23:05.755
Yeah, I think that that last part is key to navigating a solution and doing some something with it, moving forward, because I think what a lot of people do is they find someone they trust and then they just talk badly about the situation and you know, rather than, and maybe become bullies themselves in their own way, rather than.
00:23:05.755 --> 00:23:08.640
I think that's the most important.
00:23:08.640 --> 00:23:16.272
Well, having someone you trust is important, but the action piece, I think, is equally as important.
00:23:17.574 --> 00:23:20.394
Well, now we're into cliques, right, because work with a bunch of people.
00:23:20.394 --> 00:23:52.016
Sometimes this happens and it's definitely happening a lot in the school systems because it keeps coming up in the podcast.
00:23:52.016 --> 00:24:00.939
So I found a little blurb in that UK article about why, so I'm going to read you this and tell me what you think about it.
00:24:00.939 --> 00:24:07.349
It says bullying is especially prevalent in education because the work is uniquely high pressured.
00:24:07.349 --> 00:24:24.653
The never-ending cycle of high stakes, inspections and test results, combined with continual change, under-resourcing and crisis situations, can create an atmosphere of stress and blame, and then the bullying becomes commonplace.
00:24:24.653 --> 00:24:33.732
And this was these teachers that I was telling you about in the situation that another educator mentioned.
00:24:33.732 --> 00:24:37.479
That was kind of their why was that?
00:24:37.479 --> 00:24:52.844
They were blaming this teacher for student behavior and poor outcomes and felt that they could, they were being pressured and they were meeting the mark and this teacher was not.
00:24:52.844 --> 00:25:01.318
So I think that that speaks to, at least in education, a little bit of the why they felt like this was okay.
00:25:02.190 --> 00:25:14.021
I think that it's probably situational too right, Like the reason why something is happening is just very dependent upon unique circumstances within an individual building.
00:25:14.021 --> 00:25:19.378
And I mean I think about myself and my experience.
00:25:19.378 --> 00:25:23.167
The issue was I was not burnt out.
00:25:23.167 --> 00:26:07.824
I was feeling like happy and optimistic and energetic, yet my teammates were very much burnt out and I was also able to stay on top of things and get the ridiculous workload completed and I quickly gained this reputation as the person who gets shit done, and that didn't feel good to others who were in similar roles, who were, who had other things going on and they were struggling and they weren't able to, and so, for whatever reason, you know that just kind of, I don't know, it's just tricky, but I think that my point of sharing that is that the reason why someone might push someone else away or have negative feelings for someone or, you know, become passive, aggressive or just outright aggressive.
00:26:07.865 --> 00:26:25.901
I think it's very situational and I think a lot of it comes from a broken culture and a broken climate and system, because there are certainly places schools I think about my kids' schools where, like it's like so weird, it's like this kumbaya everyone loves each other, supports each other.
00:26:25.901 --> 00:26:32.255
It's beautiful, it's like this place that I've never experienced before in my life, and you know you don't hear about those things there.
00:26:32.255 --> 00:26:43.913
I'm friends with quite a few of the teachers and the administrators and support staff and they all want to support each other and build each other up staff, and they all want to support each other and build each other up.
00:26:43.913 --> 00:26:44.776
So that's just their culture, though, right.
00:26:44.776 --> 00:26:46.539
So I think it's just do you trust your leadership?
00:26:46.539 --> 00:26:48.172
Do you feel like they have your back?
00:26:48.172 --> 00:26:52.102
Do you not, Like you know all these different dynamics, I think, come into play.
00:26:52.829 --> 00:26:55.115
Yeah, you're right, it is situational.
00:26:55.115 --> 00:27:04.652
I just thought that was interesting, that they feel like the career itself lends itself to some not so nice behavior at times.
00:27:04.652 --> 00:27:17.423
But you're right, I've worked in a building, also, where everyone was really supportive and when someone was not, they actually were called out on it, not like publicly, but it was.
00:27:17.423 --> 00:27:28.641
I had an administrator that went directly to that person and said hey, you are sending me these signals that you're not happy, let's talk about it.
00:27:28.641 --> 00:27:34.571
And so I think, when we you know, accountability is a huge piece right for all of us.
00:27:35.271 --> 00:27:40.414
So I think that we have covered all my bullying topics for today.
00:27:40.414 --> 00:27:50.580
I want to just give a heartfelt thank you to all three of you for contributing to this conversation and anybody out there listening.
00:27:50.580 --> 00:28:07.220
If you're inspired to take a step and talk about what you think needs to be talked about in education, there's many places that you can join this conversation on the platform at taughtbuzzsproutcom.
00:28:07.220 --> 00:28:14.540
Additionally, we're always looking to bring more voices into what we have to say Before we go.
00:28:14.540 --> 00:28:18.895
Ladies, did you have anything else that you want to say today?
00:28:20.479 --> 00:28:20.920
Thank you.
00:28:20.920 --> 00:28:24.791
Thank you, Melissa, for being a boat rocker my pleasure.
00:28:24.791 --> 00:28:27.317
Thanks for having me.
00:28:27.317 --> 00:28:28.559
Thanks for having us.
00:28:29.260 --> 00:28:31.010
Thanks for having me, melissa, I appreciate it.
00:28:31.030 --> 00:28:32.974
It was fun, all right.
00:28:32.974 --> 00:28:49.270
So until next time this is Taught, the podcast is taught.
00:28:49.270 --> 00:28:49.632
The podcast.
00:28:49.632 --> 00:28:51.255
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Taughtbuzzsproutcom.
00:29:26.349 --> 00:29:33.340
Coach speaker and author Rashid Ogunlaro said it may take many voices for people to hear the same message.
00:29:33.340 --> 00:29:39.098
Join me in being one of the many voices rising up to get the message out around educator burnout.
00:29:39.098 --> 00:29:40.776
This is Melissa LaFleur.
00:29:40.776 --> 00:29:43.739
Thank you for listening to taught the podcast.
00:29:43.739 --> 00:29:57.664
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00:29:57.664 --> 00:30:11.138
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00:30:20.233 --> 00:30:29.901
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