Historical Thinking And Democratic Citizenship

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- Good morning and
thank you for joining us
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and good afternoon for those
who may be on the East Coast.
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We're so delighted to have
you join us this morning
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for the next, in our
series of webinars, as part
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of the Alliance
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for Civics in the academy
this morning or afternoon's.
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Webinar features, historical thinking
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and democratic citizenship as
we think about how to engage
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with civics in colleges
and university settings.
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The alliance for civics in
the academy, as you may know,
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is a community of practice
of faculty in college
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and university settings
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who are interested in
sharing best practices
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with one another, resources
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and coming together to talk about how best
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to pursue civic education.
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At this time, we have
a number of resources
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that are available to you,
seed grants, sample syllabi,
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and again, these seminars
that are offered periodically.
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We invite interested faculty
to host their own seminars,
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which we're happy to support.
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So those of you who are
interested, please reach out to us.
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You'll see information
in the chat about how
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to become a member.
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Membership is free, so
I encourage you to join
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and you'll also see in the
chat information about how
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to access these resources, the seed grants
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and the syllabi and otherwise.
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So we'll look forward to
having you join us right now.
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It is my distinct pleasure
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to introduce this morning's panel,
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and I will do so in alphabetical order.
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We'll begin with Jeffrey
Collins, who is professor
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of history, humanities, excuse me,
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and the history of ideas at
the University of Florida,
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where he focuses on early
modern political thought.
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He is also the associate Director
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of Academic Affairs at the
Hamilton School at the University
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of Florida, which focuses on
classical and civic education.
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Also, joining us this
morning is Jonathan Gana,
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who is associate professor of history
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and associate professor
of law here at Stanford.
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And he is a civics faculty fellow
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and is quite engaged in
undergraduate education related
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to civics, but also in
his research related
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to the constitutional
political legal history
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of the founding era of the United States.
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And last but not least
is Suzanne Marchand,
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who is the board professor
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of History at Louisiana State University,
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where she focuses on European
intellectual history,
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and importantly is the president
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of the American Historical
Association, which
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as you may know, is a
professional association
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for historians.
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And this morning's webinar
signals an important
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partnership between the
American Historical Association
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and the Alliance for Civics
in the academy as we think
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through how best to
integrate historical insight
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with civics education.
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I'm Mary Clark.
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I am a member of the executive
committee of the Alliance
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for Civics in the
Academy, professor of Law
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and Provost Emerita at
the University of Denver.
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So thank you again for joining us.
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I'll begin by asking our panelists
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to address how
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they understand historical
insights animating
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or benefiting our work in the area
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of civic education.
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So whoever would like to start us off,
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and then we will just have a conversation
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that flows naturally.
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- Jonathan, why don't you
go first since you were
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alphabetically first
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and also most closely a light, I think
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with American history perspectives on.
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- Sure. So there's a
great deal, one might say,
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but I think I'll, I might
begin by saying, you know,
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every discipline
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or approach to knowledge
has, its, its sort
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of distinctive features.
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And one of the ones that history
really tries to inculcate
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what it means to think historically
is to spend a great deal
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of time trying to
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abstract yourself from your
own central assumptions.
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Things you take for
granted, ways, you know,
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essential premises by which you proceed
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and understand how different people
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were altogether reasonable and rational.
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Or you would at least begin
by assuming that they might be
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approach questions in a different way.
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And I think there are a
few sort of mental habits
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that one cultivates
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that are better at creating a
civic habit that is essential
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to living in a sort of
pluralistic democracy,
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which is precisely predicated
on people will disagree about
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fundamental questions
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and how do you go about
understanding with empathy,
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those who might approach things
slightly differently than
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you if you spend time engaged
in serious historical inquiry,
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aside from the fact of
trying to understand
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what happened in the
past, which is of course
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the culmination of what, of
what that work hopes to yield,
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I think you also hopefully
can gain quite a bit about
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how do you think through difference
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and how do you make sense
of, in a strong way,
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not a caricatured way, ways
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of approaching central
questions of human life.
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What does it mean to be free?
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What is just, what is the best
way to organize a society?
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And you can end up learning
a great deal from that,
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but you can only learn once you're sort
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of engaged in the work of
actually trying to understand.
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And history's not alone in doing this,
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but I think it's something
that historical teaching
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and thinking really
centrally tries to inculcate.
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And in that regard, I think
has quite a bit to offer
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civics education, wr large.
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- Yeah. Jeffrey and Suzanne,
does this resonate with you?
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- Yeah, if I could maybe
just add to that, I mean,
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I think history, like all
disciplines is a discipline
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set of methods and a discipline of mind.
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And Jonathan speaking to
that dimension of history,
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but it's also a body of content, right?
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And I think often history
is more bedeviled by
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that tension than other
disciplines to some extent,
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because history's relevant
to almost all disciplines.
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And so a lot of history will
be done by political theorists
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or English professors
these days and so forth.
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So history is everywhere,
but it's, it's also,
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I think we often think of it
strictly as a body of content.
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And there are aspects of western
history, American history,
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which are, you know,
obviously very relevant
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to civics education for a
citizen of the United States.
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But I, but I think Jonathan's quite right.
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We have to think beyond that mere content.
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The content's important,
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and I think a lot of history
departments have allowed the
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content that's relevant to
civics, educations to sort
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of dissipate a little bit over the,
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over the last few decades.
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- Why would that
- Be?
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Well, that's a, that that's,
there's a large story there,
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and I think there are a lot
of contributing factors.
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One is, you know, a very,
you know, noble desire
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to diversify departments that
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for many generations were
too western, too European,
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too American focused.
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And so we've diversified
at the same time, we are
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shrinking a lot of departments
across the United States
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and humanities departments in general,
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and history departments in
particular getting smaller while
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they're trying to do more.
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And so I think this has led
to a, a sort of atrophying
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of certain kind of core fields
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that are important to civics education.
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So there's a content side
to this as well as I think
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what Jonathan's pointed to,
which is the, the, the sort
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of unique disciplinary values
of his, of, of his story
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historicism as a kind
of discipline of mind,
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an important skill for a citizen to have.
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So I think we have two, two things
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to think about when we think about history
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as a contributing subject
to a civics education.
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- Suzanne. Yeah, we'd
love to hear your thoughts
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and especially as it relates to your role
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with the American Historical Association.
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What appetite is there among
your colleagues, for example,
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and engaging in this, what it
appears to be a renaissance
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of civics education at the
college and university level?
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- Well, thank you, Marian. Of course,
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I'm speaking in my own capacity,
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but I will say that the,
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the a HA is very interested in exploring
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how we can do this kind of partnering.
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I mean, we have always been open
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to many other different disciplines
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and disciplinary backgrounds,
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and so that is just another
step in a new direction.
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But this is definitely something
that we want to discuss,
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and not just among American historians.
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We need to, you know,
understand where we've come from
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and how we got here, not just as a nation,
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but as a world community.
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So world history, European
history, of course, really want
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to be part of this conversation.
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We have to figure out
how we can best do that.
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I I really wanna underscore
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what Jonathan said about
learning empathy from history.
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I think that's one of our
great opportunities is
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to walk some, you know,
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some distance in someone else's shoes
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and see how that feels.
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But two other things I
think history is uniquely
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positioned to teach us.
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And one is about contingency
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that very important moment,
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which a decision can make
a world of difference.
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And after which nothing
will be quite the same.
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This is really a moment in which
we can teach students about
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their own agency.
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You know, what you can do,
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what certain individuals
have done in the past
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that made a difference
or left a mark or didn't,
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but they, they attempted
to make their case.
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And I think that students need that now.
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They need that sense that
they can do something to help,
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they can make a difference.
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Their agency is, is
something that is important
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to us to, to really give them that,
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that positive encouragement
that they can, can do things.
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We have, I think, too
much focused on the sort
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of glass half empty aspect to,
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to the world that, you
know, things are dire
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and getting worse.
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And, and we need to find
some ways to encourage people
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to think about moments of time
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and change when people made
a positive difference or,
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or did something that
was admirable and or,
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or difficult Leadership
is always difficult
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and no one gets it right or perfect.
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So maybe that would be one
thing we can really work on is
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how to teach students
about contingencies that,
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that really do make a difference
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and ways in which they can,
they can see themselves
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as past actors faced with
those difficult situations.
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- To your point, I was just in
conversation last night about
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how young people today think, feel a sense
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of being overwhelmed by the
state of the world, all of the
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various forces and
crises and what have you.
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And I so appreciate your
highlighting this opportunity for
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agency, if you will, by young people.
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What is it that they
can feel some sense of
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a pathway into impacting both the
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present and the future?
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Staying with you for a moment,
Suzanne, it would be helpful
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to explicate something
you just touched on,
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and that is a contribution of
European intellectual history
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to this field of civics education.
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Many of us are in the
domain of American law
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or American history,
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but we'd love to have
you highlight the role
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of European intellectual
history in this conversation.
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- Well, and Jeffrey can
certainly help me on this,
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being a British historian,
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that's even more
important I think for some
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of this conversation.
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But first of all, I adore
teaching great books.
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I do that as often as I can.
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And I think that that is
one of the ways I, there,
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there are two pathways,
it seems to me for civics
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to go generally speaking.
254
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One is more like sort
of experimental physics.
255
00:12:57,100 --> 00:13:01,360
That is how you actually
become a citizen, do your part,
256
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get elected for office,
257
00:13:03,520 --> 00:13:05,800
and then maybe the
theoretical physics side.
258
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And that's the, you know,
what are the big ideas?
259
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How do we design things properly?
260
00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:15,820
And I think intellectual
history certainly fits on
261
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that latter side,
262
00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:23,110
but so many of the ideas
that have shaped European,
263
00:13:23,110 --> 00:13:27,250
have shaped American culture
have come from Europe.
264
00:13:27,250 --> 00:13:30,130
Some bad ideas as well
as good ideas, mind you.
265
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But I think that that one other thing
266
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that European intellectual
history can do for you is
267
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to give you low stakes set of discussions.
268
00:13:41,365 --> 00:13:45,970
They're not about you
directly or about America, but
269
00:13:45,970 --> 00:13:48,460
or about France or about ancient Greece
270
00:13:48,460 --> 00:13:50,560
or about the Renaissance.
271
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And you could talk
through Machiavelli and,
272
00:13:54,580 --> 00:13:59,230
and maybe that gives you some
purchase on how to deal with,
273
00:14:00,070 --> 00:14:02,080
with the question of,
you know, being loved
274
00:14:02,080 --> 00:14:06,610
or being feared in current
day American politics in a way
275
00:14:06,610 --> 00:14:10,810
that doesn't step on
anyone's toes directly
276
00:14:10,810 --> 00:14:13,600
or personalize it too much.
277
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I also wanna say one more thing,
278
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and that is that I,
279
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I am engaged currently in
a battle against cynicism
280
00:14:20,860 --> 00:14:25,690
for myself and for for all
of my, my fellow colleagues
281
00:14:25,690 --> 00:14:27,190
who teach students.
282
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I think students need more wonder
283
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and more just fascination in our study
284
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of the past curiosity
285
00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:42,000
and less emphasis on, on,
on relevance, honestly,
286
00:14:42,340 --> 00:14:46,810
and or on, on sort of utility
287
00:14:46,810 --> 00:14:48,550
or, or politics.
288
00:14:49,510 --> 00:14:51,740
Students do respond to that.
289
00:14:51,740 --> 00:14:55,820
They love it when you are
really thrilled by something
290
00:14:55,820 --> 00:15:00,820
and we need to engage their
curiosity before we can.
291
00:15:00,860 --> 00:15:05,780
I mean, this is a lovely line
of schillers that you can only
292
00:15:05,780 --> 00:15:10,460
touch the, the dark valleys of, you know,
293
00:15:10,460 --> 00:15:14,540
of ignorance once you
have lightened the peaks
294
00:15:14,540 --> 00:15:16,190
by poetry.
295
00:15:16,190 --> 00:15:19,460
So maybe, you know, you, you kind of work
296
00:15:19,460 --> 00:15:21,680
your way into lessons.
297
00:15:21,680 --> 00:15:25,430
We think students should
learn by way of giving them,
298
00:15:25,430 --> 00:15:28,130
you know, very interesting things
299
00:15:28,130 --> 00:15:31,910
and ways in that we can, we can make them,
300
00:15:32,990 --> 00:15:35,720
make them want to know more about.
301
00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:38,930
- I love your emphasis
on wonder and curiosity.
302
00:15:38,930 --> 00:15:41,330
I do think it's infectious
303
00:15:41,330 --> 00:15:45,350
and I think our role as
faculty is to, in fact,
304
00:15:45,350 --> 00:15:50,030
our students in that sense
of wonder and, and awe.
305
00:15:50,030 --> 00:15:52,880
Jeffrey, I'd love to hear
your thoughts from a British
306
00:15:52,880 --> 00:15:53,960
history perspective.
307
00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:55,400
What is the contribution?
308
00:15:55,400 --> 00:15:57,440
And then Jonathan, I'm coming to you
309
00:15:57,440 --> 00:16:00,140
'cause you obviously bridge the British
310
00:16:00,140 --> 00:16:02,120
and the early American, right?
311
00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:04,640
- Well, I mean the British is, is speaks
312
00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:05,810
for itself in a sense.
313
00:16:05,810 --> 00:16:08,450
And that the, the revolution
of the founding was, you know,
314
00:16:09,380 --> 00:16:12,530
steeped in that tradition
of political thoughts,
315
00:16:12,530 --> 00:16:15,290
political economy, political traditions,
316
00:16:15,290 --> 00:16:16,910
constitutional history and so forth.
317
00:16:16,910 --> 00:16:18,740
So I won't belabor that,
318
00:16:18,740 --> 00:16:20,960
but I mean, I might
speak more broadly about,
319
00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:24,080
so at Hamilton we, we do
embed the, the civic into
320
00:16:24,080 --> 00:16:26,090
what we call the classical, which is a,
321
00:16:26,090 --> 00:16:27,950
a somewhat broader kind of curriculum
322
00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:30,470
on Western civilization,
323
00:16:30,470 --> 00:16:32,720
although western civilization
pretty broadly defined.
324
00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:34,970
So we have people here
working on Islam and China
325
00:16:34,970 --> 00:16:36,500
and parallel civilizations too.
326
00:16:37,580 --> 00:16:39,890
But I mean, I think, you
know, it's, it's important
327
00:16:39,890 --> 00:16:42,650
to understand the American
experience as part of
328
00:16:42,650 --> 00:16:45,800
that broader experience, not
to be too parochial about it.
329
00:16:45,800 --> 00:16:49,280
I mean, it would've been
pretty nonsensical actually to
330
00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:50,780
Jefferson or Franklin
331
00:16:50,780 --> 00:16:53,000
or something to say,
well, you're an American,
332
00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:54,560
so we'll just be reading American texts.
333
00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:55,640
They would've thought this was, you know,
334
00:16:55,640 --> 00:16:57,050
the worst kind of philistinism.
335
00:16:57,050 --> 00:17:00,320
They would've immediately in
instructed a, a student to turn
336
00:17:00,320 --> 00:17:02,720
to the ancients and to turn to
the early moderns to sort of
337
00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:06,170
understand politics or human behavior.
338
00:17:06,170 --> 00:17:09,440
And often when I'm trying to
convince my students of this,
339
00:17:09,440 --> 00:17:10,610
who, who have a kind
340
00:17:10,610 --> 00:17:12,290
of natural interest in their own country
341
00:17:12,290 --> 00:17:13,370
and their own institutions
342
00:17:13,370 --> 00:17:15,500
and so forth, I say, you
know, this is really the,
343
00:17:15,500 --> 00:17:17,750
the syllabus and the mind frame
344
00:17:17,750 --> 00:17:18,890
of the people that you're studying.
345
00:17:18,890 --> 00:17:21,320
You have to understand
what they understood.
346
00:17:21,320 --> 00:17:22,655
You have to in some sense to,
347
00:17:22,655 --> 00:17:24,920
to coin an old calling
when phrase see the,
348
00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:26,870
see the world through their eyes.
349
00:17:26,870 --> 00:17:30,200
So I think this is part of
just a, you know, civics is in,
350
00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:32,510
in some sense, making a
good citizen is a, sort of
351
00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:35,270
suffers from a plain problem, right?
352
00:17:35,270 --> 00:17:37,160
If it can go off in all directions, right?
353
00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:40,520
I mean, and anything that makes
you more knowledgeable is,
354
00:17:40,520 --> 00:17:42,440
is gonna make you a better
citizen in some sense.
355
00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:45,685
So it's sometimes hard to sort
of demarcate the curriculum
356
00:17:45,685 --> 00:17:49,740
and, and what's really kind
of vital to civics a kind
357
00:17:49,740 --> 00:17:51,990
of enterprise at the university level.
358
00:17:51,990 --> 00:17:55,830
But I certainly think the
intellectual history of,
359
00:17:55,830 --> 00:18:00,765
of Europe, going back to
antiquity really is of sort
360
00:18:00,765 --> 00:18:01,830
of glaring relevance.
361
00:18:01,830 --> 00:18:03,600
And yeah, it doesn't make a lot of sense
362
00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:05,520
to teach civics without some reference
363
00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:06,600
to that broader tradition.
364
00:18:07,955 --> 00:18:09,840
- John, Jonathan would
love to hear your thoughts
365
00:18:09,840 --> 00:18:13,650
as you sort of bridge
these cultural traditions.
366
00:18:13,650 --> 00:18:17,100
And then my next question for
folks to be thinking about is
367
00:18:17,100 --> 00:18:21,570
how do we instantiate civics
education in the curriculum,
368
00:18:21,570 --> 00:18:23,070
especially at the undergrad level.
369
00:18:23,070 --> 00:18:26,430
Are we looking at gen ed, are
we looking at requirements,
370
00:18:26,430 --> 00:18:28,200
electives, what have you?
371
00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:30,120
But over to you Jonathan.
372
00:18:30,120 --> 00:18:33,990
- Sure. Well, I'll just strongly
agree with what Suzanne and
373
00:18:33,990 --> 00:18:37,620
and Jeffrey said because
I am on all dimensions.
374
00:18:37,620 --> 00:18:39,000
'cause I think it's all very important.
375
00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:43,380
But even though I study the
founding of the United States
376
00:18:43,380 --> 00:18:47,070
and spend a lot of time teaching
that, so much of my effort
377
00:18:47,970 --> 00:18:51,000
building off, especially what
Jeffrey was just saying, is
378
00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:52,440
to try to make something
379
00:18:52,440 --> 00:18:56,610
that can seem superficially
quite familiar, less familiar,
380
00:18:56,610 --> 00:18:58,410
because it precisely was,
381
00:18:58,410 --> 00:19:00,930
and the reason why,
you know, to say, well,
382
00:19:00,930 --> 00:19:05,910
let's look at 18th, late 18th
century American political,
383
00:19:05,910 --> 00:19:10,650
legal and civic thinking is
to recognize all of the things
384
00:19:10,650 --> 00:19:13,230
that they were presupposing
385
00:19:13,230 --> 00:19:16,440
and assuming when they
constructed institutions
386
00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:20,640
and concepts that we think we
know quite well that led them
387
00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:24,570
to have different understandings
in important ways.
388
00:19:24,570 --> 00:19:27,540
And then that leads naturally, I think
389
00:19:27,540 --> 00:19:30,300
to if there's great concern
about the current moment,
390
00:19:30,300 --> 00:19:32,850
which there certainly is,
especially among students.
391
00:19:33,870 --> 00:19:35,940
Well, if you want to fix anything you need
392
00:19:35,940 --> 00:19:38,760
to perform a sophisticated diagnostics.
393
00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:41,520
And if you have learned that in fact
394
00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:44,430
Thomas Jefferson was drawing
more heavily on a set
395
00:19:44,430 --> 00:19:47,790
of British or French writers
that you've never heard of
396
00:19:47,790 --> 00:19:49,890
and thought that they held the keys
397
00:19:49,890 --> 00:19:51,450
to something quite significant,
398
00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:54,000
then that doesn't mean he's right.
399
00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:56,910
But now we have the
foundation for the kind
400
00:19:56,910 --> 00:19:59,940
of critical engagement that moves past,
401
00:19:59,940 --> 00:20:02,580
well either they were good or bad,
402
00:20:02,580 --> 00:20:05,460
or either we should keep this
institution or get rid of it.
403
00:20:06,450 --> 00:20:09,240
Now we're having a conversation
about why it was created the
404
00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:11,460
way it was and oh, it
turns out it was created
405
00:20:11,460 --> 00:20:12,720
for slightly different reasons
406
00:20:13,650 --> 00:20:15,510
with different assumptions about
407
00:20:15,510 --> 00:20:18,810
how politics worked than
we might tend to have now.
408
00:20:18,810 --> 00:20:20,850
Well, what do we then do
with that knowledge? Hmm.
409
00:20:20,850 --> 00:20:24,000
And to me that, you know, that's really
410
00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:27,090
where the civics conversation can take off
411
00:20:27,090 --> 00:20:30,300
because it's less
utilitarian in a vulgar sense
412
00:20:30,300 --> 00:20:34,500
and it's more about, okay, now
we've, we we see, you know,
413
00:20:34,500 --> 00:20:35,970
everything's a bit scrambled here.
414
00:20:35,970 --> 00:20:38,820
I don't, I don't, I don't know how
415
00:20:38,820 --> 00:20:42,090
to take the culture wars out
there on cable news into this
416
00:20:42,090 --> 00:20:46,470
conversation because it now
is operating along a, a sort
417
00:20:46,470 --> 00:20:47,770
of different set axes
418
00:20:49,270 --> 00:20:52,240
and is forcing me to think
about some 18th century
419
00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:54,190
writer I've never heard of.
420
00:20:54,190 --> 00:20:56,230
Yes. And they're all talking about him.
421
00:20:56,230 --> 00:20:58,150
So what do I do with that?
422
00:20:58,150 --> 00:21:02,590
- Yes. Strikes me you are using
a phrase banning the binary,
423
00:21:02,590 --> 00:21:05,920
you're making it more complex,
424
00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:08,740
more complicated.
425
00:21:08,740 --> 00:21:10,480
And that is how it is.
426
00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:12,910
It also provides more opportunity
427
00:21:12,910 --> 00:21:17,230
for engagement if students
don't simply see it as a binary.
428
00:21:17,230 --> 00:21:22,120
- Precisely.
- So I'd love to hear your thoughts on,
429
00:21:22,120 --> 00:21:26,140
especially for our faculty who
are joining us this morning,
430
00:21:26,140 --> 00:21:30,760
how do we instantiate
historical understandings
431
00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:34,750
with civic education, especially
at the undergrad level?
432
00:21:34,750 --> 00:21:37,690
Are we looking at gen ed?
433
00:21:37,690 --> 00:21:40,840
Are we looking merely at electives?
434
00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:43,600
Are we looking at required courses?
435
00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:46,900
And Jonathan, I wonder
if I might start with you
436
00:21:46,900 --> 00:21:48,100
and then turn to Suzanne
437
00:21:48,100 --> 00:21:52,420
and Jeffrey given the Stanford
experiment, if you will,
438
00:21:52,420 --> 00:21:55,630
in civics education at
the first year level.
439
00:21:57,040 --> 00:22:00,100
- Yeah, so it's a complicated
question that I think yields
440
00:22:00,100 --> 00:22:02,350
an answer similar to one Jeffrey gave.
441
00:22:02,350 --> 00:22:04,360
We just sort of meet all of the above
442
00:22:04,360 --> 00:22:08,800
because there's no particular
way, I think, to do it right.
443
00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:10,750
And in fact, to, to think that
444
00:22:11,770 --> 00:22:14,620
this is really more about
gen ed than more specialized
445
00:22:14,620 --> 00:22:18,160
courses sort of misses the
way in which it, it needs
446
00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:21,700
to be spread premised on a
kind of more holistic culture
447
00:22:21,700 --> 00:22:25,720
that's revived that is that
through which education leads
448
00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:28,600
to good citizens in a democracy,
449
00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:29,890
we're doing something different than
450
00:22:29,890 --> 00:22:31,270
those who don't live in one.
451
00:22:31,270 --> 00:22:34,600
Hmm. But I think you can certainly start
452
00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:36,940
with general education requirements,
453
00:22:36,940 --> 00:22:41,026
or at least nudges to use the
technocratic term toward that.
454
00:22:41,026 --> 00:22:44,590
Yeah. Sounds and that is
certainly what Stanford has tried.
455
00:22:44,590 --> 00:22:46,900
And I think with good success,
it's never, I mean, it's,
456
00:22:46,900 --> 00:22:49,720
it's never simple to to know how a a kind
457
00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:53,715
of one size fits all course
should work properly.
458
00:22:53,715 --> 00:22:56,800
But the premise of it that,
especially here at Stanford,
459
00:22:56,800 --> 00:22:57,850
which can be very tech
460
00:22:57,850 --> 00:23:02,710
and stem heavy, let's create
spaces where not simply those
461
00:23:02,710 --> 00:23:05,590
who might be less, take fewer classes
462
00:23:05,590 --> 00:23:08,320
that focus on these things,
are having these conversations,
463
00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:10,930
but are having them
with a diverse community
464
00:23:10,930 --> 00:23:12,490
of the student body.
465
00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:15,850
I mean, I think that's
such a central feature of
466
00:23:15,850 --> 00:23:17,770
what the gen ed can provide, that someone
467
00:23:17,770 --> 00:23:20,860
who is interested in
becoming an English major and
468
00:23:20,860 --> 00:23:23,410
therefore has certain habits
of mind that has led them to,
469
00:23:23,410 --> 00:23:25,360
that is seated next to somebody
470
00:23:25,360 --> 00:23:28,600
who is very interested in
becoming a computer programmer
471
00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:31,930
and they're commonly trying
to make sense of WEB Du Bois
472
00:23:32,770 --> 00:23:35,080
or Machiavelli and,
473
00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:39,160
and what, what a what a
thoughtful person would make
474
00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:42,280
of such a text, both in context and not.
475
00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:44,620
And I think that's also
a, a crucial part of
476
00:23:44,620 --> 00:23:48,230
how the gen ed work, that you
don't have some of the depth
477
00:23:48,230 --> 00:23:49,490
of knowledge that you might need
478
00:23:49,490 --> 00:23:52,610
to fully contextualize it the
way a professional historian
479
00:23:52,610 --> 00:23:53,930
would, or a political theorist
480
00:23:53,930 --> 00:23:55,910
who understands the broader tradition.
481
00:23:55,910 --> 00:23:57,950
But that's true of most
aspects of democracy.
482
00:23:57,950 --> 00:23:59,630
You are being asked to make choices
483
00:23:59,630 --> 00:24:01,670
with imperfect information.
484
00:24:01,670 --> 00:24:03,050
And the,
485
00:24:03,050 --> 00:24:06,410
the key there is not your
information isn imperfect, it's
486
00:24:06,410 --> 00:24:08,300
are you doing it thoughtfully or not?
487
00:24:08,300 --> 00:24:10,550
And how do we cultivate that habit?
488
00:24:10,550 --> 00:24:13,820
So I think that the sort of
gen ed requirement can do that
489
00:24:13,820 --> 00:24:17,300
in a very powerful way if
done well and it's very hard,
490
00:24:17,300 --> 00:24:20,120
but then it needs to be
followed up by, you know,
491
00:24:20,120 --> 00:24:22,880
a whole range of other courses
that are providing offerings
492
00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:23,900
that people get a sense of
493
00:24:23,900 --> 00:24:25,370
how this is building on each other.
494
00:24:25,370 --> 00:24:26,990
Mm. But,
495
00:24:26,990 --> 00:24:30,140
but I think the entry level
can be, can be very important
496
00:24:30,140 --> 00:24:32,930
- That you're laddering a
curriculum, if you will.
497
00:24:32,930 --> 00:24:35,690
Suzanne and Jeffrey, I'd love
to hear your thoughts on this
498
00:24:35,690 --> 00:24:39,230
and what your experiences have
been at your institutions.
499
00:24:40,310 --> 00:24:41,810
Suzanne, maybe starting with
500
00:24:41,810 --> 00:24:42,810
- You.
501
00:24:42,810 --> 00:24:44,840
Shall I go first? I mean, the institution
502
00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:48,020
that I teach at Louisiana State
University is very different
503
00:24:48,020 --> 00:24:50,210
of course, than Stanford.
504
00:24:50,210 --> 00:24:51,470
And I think that is a,
505
00:24:51,470 --> 00:24:54,320
that is a really important
thing to acknowledge.
506
00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:56,270
No one size is gonna fit all
507
00:24:56,270 --> 00:24:59,600
because institutions are very
different in what they can do
508
00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:03,020
and they're very big boats to turn around.
509
00:25:03,020 --> 00:25:05,480
So it's very hard to make a big change.
510
00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:07,940
I also think, you know,
sort of commandments from
511
00:25:07,940 --> 00:25:10,040
above are just not gonna work.
512
00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:12,200
Not for students, not for faculty.
513
00:25:13,460 --> 00:25:15,650
So nudging the curriculum
514
00:25:15,650 --> 00:25:18,110
and having a conversation
particularly about
515
00:25:18,110 --> 00:25:23,060
what gen ed should be, might
be the best way forward.
516
00:25:23,060 --> 00:25:26,780
How we, how we do this, we can't, I think,
517
00:25:26,780 --> 00:25:30,770
add more gen ed on add
a big state university.
518
00:25:30,770 --> 00:25:34,610
Certainly the engineers
will not want us to do that.
519
00:25:35,900 --> 00:25:39,560
And there's a lot of push to, to keep time
520
00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:41,630
to degree short.
521
00:25:42,470 --> 00:25:46,250
So there are those pressures
that make it difficult
522
00:25:46,250 --> 00:25:48,170
to add new courses,
523
00:25:48,170 --> 00:25:52,010
but we should have conversations
about what gen ed is
524
00:25:52,010 --> 00:25:56,090
and what it should do today,
what it's, what its purpose is.
525
00:25:56,090 --> 00:25:59,750
We have not really had those,
maybe we don't know quite how
526
00:25:59,750 --> 00:26:04,370
to have those without
fighting over resources
527
00:26:04,370 --> 00:26:07,340
or, or who has to do something.
528
00:26:08,540 --> 00:26:10,610
And this is maybe one of the problems
529
00:26:10,610 --> 00:26:14,780
with the resource centered
management way of,
530
00:26:14,780 --> 00:26:17,810
of working in the world
these days is it does tend
531
00:26:17,810 --> 00:26:19,700
to set disciplines against each other
532
00:26:19,700 --> 00:26:24,700
and make it a kind of zero sum game.
533
00:26:25,250 --> 00:26:27,530
So what, how do we deal with that?
534
00:26:27,530 --> 00:26:29,090
I, that I don't really know,
535
00:26:29,090 --> 00:26:31,400
but I think having this conversation
536
00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:36,170
and making more people
aware of it, perhaps we need
537
00:26:36,170 --> 00:26:40,040
to talk to university mentors also
538
00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:43,170
who were often left out
of the picture or advisors
539
00:26:43,170 --> 00:26:46,230
and ask them to talk to students,
540
00:26:46,230 --> 00:26:49,590
incoming students in particular
about, you know, making sure
541
00:26:49,590 --> 00:26:52,230
that they, they take some courses
542
00:26:52,230 --> 00:26:54,810
that give them some direction
in life and some meaning
543
00:26:54,810 --> 00:26:56,910
and some smaller courses
544
00:26:56,910 --> 00:27:01,860
and not just really, you
know, really push them
545
00:27:01,860 --> 00:27:05,670
to get through with their
education as fast as possible.
546
00:27:05,670 --> 00:27:08,520
But it is the, the structural issues are,
547
00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:10,260
are not to be sneezed at.
548
00:27:10,260 --> 00:27:13,290
They're, they are very much present.
549
00:27:13,290 --> 00:27:16,110
- Oh, surely having been
engaged in curricular reform,
550
00:27:16,110 --> 00:27:20,580
it can very much play out
as a zero sum operation
551
00:27:20,580 --> 00:27:21,990
as you suggest.
552
00:27:21,990 --> 00:27:24,300
Jeffrey, we'd love to
hear your thoughts on this
553
00:27:24,300 --> 00:27:27,000
and what you're doing
at the Hamilton School.
554
00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:31,110
- Right? Yeah, well, just
speaking generally first, I mean,
555
00:27:31,110 --> 00:27:35,400
I think some of the challenges
are increasingly vocational
556
00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:36,780
and utilitarian orientation
557
00:27:36,780 --> 00:27:38,790
of university education,
which is understandable.
558
00:27:38,790 --> 00:27:40,650
Students are concerned
about the cost of education
559
00:27:40,650 --> 00:27:43,350
and want to make sure this is
560
00:27:43,350 --> 00:27:44,820
contributing to their later career.
561
00:27:44,820 --> 00:27:47,670
But I think this has
become a problem for sort
562
00:27:47,670 --> 00:27:49,590
of general broad liberal education
563
00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:55,140
and civic knowledge is
necessarily gonna be part of that
564
00:27:55,140 --> 00:27:56,640
kind of a broad liberal education.
565
00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:59,040
It's not necessarily
gonna help you be a better
566
00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:00,510
accountant or an engineer.
567
00:28:00,510 --> 00:28:01,800
Right. It's gonna make
you a better citizen.
568
00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:03,510
And so we have to think of it beyond the
569
00:28:03,510 --> 00:28:04,890
vocational, the utilitarian.
570
00:28:04,890 --> 00:28:07,080
I think the other problem
I think is the kind
571
00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:10,740
of purely elective model
of universities, which has,
572
00:28:10,740 --> 00:28:11,880
it's particularly in humanities
573
00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:15,690
and social sciences kind
of destroyed any sense
574
00:28:15,690 --> 00:28:18,000
of a coherent curriculum
in most departments,
575
00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:20,400
which is I think part of
the crisis of the humanities
576
00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:22,140
that the students think
we don't take our own
577
00:28:22,140 --> 00:28:23,220
curriculum very seriously.
578
00:28:24,180 --> 00:28:25,770
So I tend to think of civics.
579
00:28:25,770 --> 00:28:27,990
I mean, some people think
it's a discipline of its own
580
00:28:27,990 --> 00:28:29,790
or it should have its own
departments and so forth.
581
00:28:29,790 --> 00:28:31,230
I don't think of it that way.
582
00:28:31,230 --> 00:28:33,240
I tend to think it's more
helpful to think of it as a kind
583
00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:36,390
of question again, of,
of curricular content.
584
00:28:36,390 --> 00:28:41,340
What are the fields that the
faculty think are necessary
585
00:28:41,340 --> 00:28:44,670
to be on offer for students
to at least have the option
586
00:28:44,670 --> 00:28:46,980
or maybe to be required to, to, to sort
587
00:28:46,980 --> 00:28:50,400
of develop civic knowledge,
a kind of body of knowledge
588
00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:52,710
that will make them knowledgeable voters
589
00:28:52,710 --> 00:28:54,780
and actors in the civic space.
590
00:28:54,780 --> 00:28:56,520
And to me that's really more
591
00:28:56,520 --> 00:28:59,190
of a curricular question about
fields which have either been
592
00:28:59,190 --> 00:29:01,320
neglected and need to be revived
593
00:29:02,610 --> 00:29:05,250
or need to be required in some instances.
594
00:29:05,250 --> 00:29:08,160
And I think we should be
returning in American universities
595
00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:09,960
to an old mid 20th century idea,
596
00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:11,490
which I think what's very successful,
597
00:29:11,490 --> 00:29:12,570
and that's core curriculum.
598
00:29:12,570 --> 00:29:16,980
Mm. This used to be a very distinguished
599
00:29:16,980 --> 00:29:19,590
and in an, and an often
elite notion right?
600
00:29:19,590 --> 00:29:21,780
At places like Columbia and Chicago.
601
00:29:21,780 --> 00:29:25,140
So I think sometimes it's,
it's been tainted by that,
602
00:29:25,140 --> 00:29:26,730
but I don't think we have
to think of it that way.
603
00:29:26,730 --> 00:29:28,470
I think we should be returning to sort
604
00:29:28,470 --> 00:29:30,530
of a sense of core curriculum.
605
00:29:30,530 --> 00:29:33,930
And so at Hamilton we don't necessarily,
606
00:29:33,930 --> 00:29:37,530
we don't offer anything
called civics, I think
607
00:29:38,430 --> 00:29:39,570
as a subject.
608
00:29:39,570 --> 00:29:42,460
I think that's the branding
is problematic for,
609
00:29:42,460 --> 00:29:43,600
for university students.
610
00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:45,220
I think they think of that
as a high school subject.
611
00:29:46,450 --> 00:29:49,780
So we, we offer more legible
interdisciplinary majors at the
612
00:29:49,780 --> 00:29:54,310
Hamilton school, which we
think advance the fields,
613
00:29:54,310 --> 00:29:55,420
the modes of knowledge
614
00:29:55,420 --> 00:29:56,920
and the disciplines which are important
615
00:29:56,920 --> 00:30:00,250
for American civic knowledge.
616
00:30:00,250 --> 00:30:01,870
Mm. And so this would be things like the
617
00:30:01,870 --> 00:30:02,950
history of the American founding.
618
00:30:02,950 --> 00:30:04,660
I know a a lot
619
00:30:04,660 --> 00:30:06,970
of people our age probably
assume this is a kind
620
00:30:06,970 --> 00:30:09,730
of standard subject in
history departments, but,
621
00:30:09,730 --> 00:30:11,290
and to a surprising extent, it's kind
622
00:30:11,290 --> 00:30:13,930
of disintegrated in many
history departments.
623
00:30:14,770 --> 00:30:16,810
The French revolution is to be a, every,
624
00:30:16,810 --> 00:30:17,860
every department have one,
625
00:30:17,860 --> 00:30:19,720
maybe two people standing
the French Revolution,
626
00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:21,160
that's not necessarily the case anymore.
627
00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:25,000
Antiquity classics, again,
it's disappearing. Mm.
628
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:27,490
So I tend to want to
think more about civic.
629
00:30:27,490 --> 00:30:30,070
I almost sometimes like to talk
about civic knowledge rather
630
00:30:30,070 --> 00:30:31,450
than civic education.
631
00:30:31,450 --> 00:30:33,250
I think when people talk
about civic education,
632
00:30:33,250 --> 00:30:37,420
it's sometimes coding it in
either a left or a right way.
633
00:30:37,420 --> 00:30:39,400
They, they wanna produce
a certain kind of citizen.
634
00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:41,650
You wanna produce either
a patriotic citizen
635
00:30:41,650 --> 00:30:43,390
or a kind of citizen activist
636
00:30:43,390 --> 00:30:46,030
or some, we, we have to get
away from that mode of thinking.
637
00:30:46,030 --> 00:30:49,930
That's not the, we're we're
trying to empower people
638
00:30:49,930 --> 00:30:53,470
and civilize them in a sense
with the knowledge they need
639
00:30:53,470 --> 00:30:55,240
to function as responsible members of a,
640
00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:56,740
of a, of a republic.
641
00:30:56,740 --> 00:30:59,110
And so that's, that's how
I prefer to think about it.
642
00:30:59,110 --> 00:31:02,500
So it's more content
driven than driven by some
643
00:31:03,610 --> 00:31:06,100
generalized sense of what
it means to be the citizen
644
00:31:06,100 --> 00:31:07,720
or something, because that's
always gonna be a normative
645
00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:10,240
question that and, and an individual one.
646
00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:12,820
- Yes. When you speak of civic knowledge,
647
00:31:12,820 --> 00:31:15,850
one thing I think about
is the role of literature.
648
00:31:15,850 --> 00:31:18,040
I was a literature major undergrad
649
00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:19,960
and what I took away from
650
00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:23,230
that most significantly
was engagement with values,
651
00:31:23,230 --> 00:31:26,500
questions of, you know, what matters.
652
00:31:26,500 --> 00:31:30,250
And I think that plays a
role in civic education,
653
00:31:30,250 --> 00:31:31,840
to your point and civic knowledge
654
00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:34,000
to your point about the core curriculum.
655
00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:37,180
One of my sons went to Chicago
undergrad, was a physics
656
00:31:37,180 --> 00:31:38,680
and engineering major,
657
00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:42,220
but is grounded in the
classics and his free time.
658
00:31:42,220 --> 00:31:44,200
He reads Play-Doh of all things.
659
00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:47,560
And so that I think is
something we should aspire
660
00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:50,470
to in a related fashion.
661
00:31:50,470 --> 00:31:53,650
You referenced how the curriculum
662
00:31:53,650 --> 00:31:56,950
and history departments has become shaped
663
00:31:56,950 --> 00:31:59,710
by faculty hiring practices.
664
00:31:59,710 --> 00:32:04,240
In our pre-conversation we
did talk about faculty hiring
665
00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:06,670
also the tenure review process.
666
00:32:06,670 --> 00:32:11,260
And how is that impacting,
for example, engagement
667
00:32:11,260 --> 00:32:14,140
with civic education, engagement
668
00:32:14,140 --> 00:32:17,080
with the interdisciplinarity that
669
00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:20,560
may inform optimal versions
670
00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:22,600
of civic education.
671
00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:25,630
- Yeah. - Would love to hear
everyone's thoughts on that.
672
00:32:25,630 --> 00:32:27,730
- Well, this offers something
very quickly on that in,
673
00:32:27,730 --> 00:32:30,070
I mean, I think I, I
think one of the problems
674
00:32:30,070 --> 00:32:32,740
of American higher ed we're
facing in a broad sense,
675
00:32:32,740 --> 00:32:35,920
but it's particularly
relevant to this question, is
676
00:32:37,420 --> 00:32:39,440
the research orientation of faculty
677
00:32:40,310 --> 00:32:44,210
and the emphasis, particularly
the elite schools on
678
00:32:44,210 --> 00:32:45,380
just getting the best researchers.
679
00:32:45,380 --> 00:32:46,790
And often teaching is sort
680
00:32:46,790 --> 00:32:48,590
of follows in the wake of the research.
681
00:32:48,590 --> 00:32:51,860
And so the, the, the teaching
can be hyper specialized,
682
00:32:53,030 --> 00:32:55,460
esoteric, recite and so forth.
683
00:32:55,460 --> 00:32:57,500
And in some sense the students
are benefited from that
684
00:32:57,500 --> 00:32:59,292
because of course, to learn
anything with a, with a,
685
00:32:59,292 --> 00:33:00,620
with a good teacher is
686
00:33:00,620 --> 00:33:02,360
to learn something and is learn to think.
687
00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:06,680
But I do think this is a another dimension
688
00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:09,590
of American higher ed, say
in the last 40 to 50 years,
689
00:33:09,590 --> 00:33:14,480
which has made for ramshackled curriculum.
690
00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:19,480
And to some extent the French
revolution may seem old hat
691
00:33:19,970 --> 00:33:21,440
to a specialist in that period,
692
00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:23,240
what can be said about the
French Revolution anymore?
693
00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:27,050
I'm gonna research instead,
you know, the, the, the,
694
00:33:27,050 --> 00:33:28,880
the cultural history of
restaurants or something.
695
00:33:30,620 --> 00:33:31,880
But that, but the French Revolution is
696
00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:33,595
not old hat to students.
697
00:33:33,595 --> 00:33:35,780
The American Revolution is
not all hat to students.
698
00:33:35,780 --> 00:33:37,130
They need to know something about it
699
00:33:37,130 --> 00:33:38,390
and they're fascinated by it.
700
00:33:38,390 --> 00:33:40,700
And so teaching, I think
does have to be more front
701
00:33:40,700 --> 00:33:43,340
and center in the way we think
about hiring, that we have
702
00:33:43,340 --> 00:33:46,700
to hire good teachers and,
and also how we promote
703
00:33:46,700 --> 00:33:48,050
and reward our faculty.
704
00:33:48,050 --> 00:33:50,240
Not to say that research and
publication are not important
705
00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:52,280
obviously, but, but I do think
706
00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:55,820
that a rebalancing there
would help with this kind
707
00:33:55,820 --> 00:33:57,410
of problem of curricular content.
708
00:33:58,700 --> 00:34:00,620
- Suzanne would love to hear your thoughts
709
00:34:00,620 --> 00:34:02,840
and especially something
we spoke about in the
710
00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:07,790
pre-conversation is the role
of professional associations in
711
00:34:07,790 --> 00:34:11,540
signaling what values,
what matters, especially
712
00:34:11,540 --> 00:34:13,670
as it relates to interdisciplinarity.
713
00:34:13,670 --> 00:34:16,940
I'm thinking both of
the faculty hiring stage
714
00:34:16,940 --> 00:34:19,490
and then also the tenure review process.
715
00:34:20,510 --> 00:34:23,330
- So lots to lots to think about.
716
00:34:23,330 --> 00:34:26,720
Just one note on, you know,
Jeffrey's voice comments.
717
00:34:26,720 --> 00:34:30,470
I, I do think that the
research imperative has,
718
00:34:31,310 --> 00:34:36,230
has done strange things sometimes
to our, to our faculties.
719
00:34:37,100 --> 00:34:39,500
And I think that's also
just understandable
720
00:34:39,500 --> 00:34:42,290
because people get sick
of the French revolution
721
00:34:42,290 --> 00:34:46,820
after, you know, in my education
it was over and over again
722
00:34:46,820 --> 00:34:49,220
and, and the French empire
hadn't been studied.
723
00:34:49,220 --> 00:34:52,310
So students naturally move to that.
724
00:34:53,240 --> 00:34:56,510
And we need to just be clear that people
725
00:34:56,510 --> 00:34:59,180
who research one thing can
teach something else and
726
00:34:59,180 --> 00:35:01,340
and should teach more broadly
727
00:35:01,340 --> 00:35:03,860
and should be trained in those broad ways.
728
00:35:03,860 --> 00:35:06,710
And, and this is just a real
problem for graduate programs
729
00:35:06,710 --> 00:35:09,590
that are trying to get
students done quickly.
730
00:35:09,590 --> 00:35:12,230
Again, there's so much to know, there's
731
00:35:12,230 --> 00:35:14,900
so much literature now to study.
732
00:35:14,900 --> 00:35:17,330
You know, the, the French
revolution is a massive
733
00:35:17,330 --> 00:35:20,660
undertaking on not to
mention the cultural history
734
00:35:20,660 --> 00:35:22,340
of the restaurant, which
I will speak up for
735
00:35:22,340 --> 00:35:24,115
because I wrote a book on the history
736
00:35:24,115 --> 00:35:25,880
of the porcelain industry.
737
00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:26,930
And I can tell you that
738
00:35:26,930 --> 00:35:28,730
- Actually I meant no offense
and I meant no offense. No,
739
00:35:28,730 --> 00:35:29,730
- Of course you did.
740
00:35:29,730 --> 00:35:32,360
Not just joking, but it, there
there are these wonderful,
741
00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:35,990
fascinating other projects that
people get involved in for,
742
00:35:35,990 --> 00:35:38,340
for good reason or ill,
743
00:35:39,780 --> 00:35:43,260
but the question of, of the
professional organizations,
744
00:35:43,260 --> 00:35:45,930
I mean, we at the a HA have
745
00:35:45,930 --> 00:35:49,290
for years worked on a
project, started, you know,
746
00:35:49,290 --> 00:35:52,830
I think maybe 20 years
ago on career diversity.
747
00:35:53,790 --> 00:35:58,050
And one of the things that we
really have tried to preach is
748
00:35:58,050 --> 00:35:59,850
for graduate students
749
00:35:59,850 --> 00:36:03,990
to think in their first year
already about not just plan a,
750
00:36:03,990 --> 00:36:07,200
but plan a one, plan a two, plan a three
751
00:36:08,310 --> 00:36:10,890
outside of academia
752
00:36:10,890 --> 00:36:12,420
or as a high school teacher,
753
00:36:12,420 --> 00:36:16,860
which I think is the most
noble job I can recommend.
754
00:36:16,860 --> 00:36:18,420
And the most important they
755
00:36:18,420 --> 00:36:21,060
- May and challenging
- And challenging
756
00:36:21,060 --> 00:36:23,460
and we can learn a lot
from them and we should.
757
00:36:24,900 --> 00:36:28,590
But I think that there,
there is a sense now
758
00:36:28,590 --> 00:36:31,710
amongst new graduate students
759
00:36:31,710 --> 00:36:35,880
and also programs that,
that we need to be prepared
760
00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:37,020
to have other skills
761
00:36:37,020 --> 00:36:40,470
and do other things including,
you know, write op-eds
762
00:36:40,470 --> 00:36:43,470
or work on digital sites
763
00:36:43,470 --> 00:36:47,640
or become a public historian
or work in archives.
764
00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:51,510
This is a challenge to learn
how to, you know, train people
765
00:36:51,510 --> 00:36:54,300
in fields you don't know yourself.
766
00:36:54,300 --> 00:36:56,460
That's a, that's a challenge.
767
00:36:56,460 --> 00:37:00,390
But I think we're, you know,
we're now succeeding in,
768
00:37:00,390 --> 00:37:05,190
in trying to get students coming out
769
00:37:05,190 --> 00:37:08,670
who have a wider set of kind of ambitions
770
00:37:08,670 --> 00:37:11,130
and ideas about what they can be.
771
00:37:11,130 --> 00:37:13,500
Now that might be the sunny side, the,
772
00:37:13,500 --> 00:37:16,560
the less sunny side is
also something that we,
773
00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:18,360
we have studied and tried to help with.
774
00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:21,570
And that is the non-tenure track lines
775
00:37:21,570 --> 00:37:24,540
and the enormous number
of postdocs being created
776
00:37:25,410 --> 00:37:28,230
at universities where they don't commit
777
00:37:28,230 --> 00:37:31,350
to full-time tenure track hires.
778
00:37:31,350 --> 00:37:34,200
And this has a very skewed effect
779
00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:36,210
as well in many departments I know of
780
00:37:36,210 --> 00:37:38,670
where the non-tenure track is beginning
781
00:37:38,670 --> 00:37:40,110
to outweigh the tenure track.
782
00:37:40,110 --> 00:37:43,230
And that has all kinds of
implications for, for loyalty
783
00:37:43,230 --> 00:37:45,240
to institution as well as
784
00:37:45,240 --> 00:37:48,000
for graduate student
teaching and down the line.
785
00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:50,820
Hmm. So it's, this is a much wider
786
00:37:50,820 --> 00:37:55,665
and more, more difficult
conversation that, you know, the,
787
00:37:55,665 --> 00:37:57,000
the, the aha has done.
788
00:37:57,000 --> 00:37:59,640
Its very best to try
to address and discuss,
789
00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:01,290
but of course it's far, far
790
00:38:01,290 --> 00:38:05,070
beyond any professional society's ability
791
00:38:05,070 --> 00:38:10,020
to make universities
create tenure track lines
792
00:38:10,020 --> 00:38:12,240
as much as we would like to do that.
793
00:38:13,170 --> 00:38:17,190
- To your point, as a
provost at two institutions,
794
00:38:17,190 --> 00:38:20,130
I was very mindful of the balance
795
00:38:20,130 --> 00:38:24,420
between tenure line faculty
and non-tenure line.
796
00:38:24,420 --> 00:38:28,560
All benefit from academic
freedom guarantees.
797
00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:30,960
But unsurprisingly,
798
00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:35,620
non-tenure line faculty don't feel that as
799
00:38:35,620 --> 00:38:37,210
richly as tenure line.
800
00:38:37,210 --> 00:38:39,850
And I think that does impact
801
00:38:39,850 --> 00:38:43,300
choices about teaching
risks that faculty may
802
00:38:43,300 --> 00:38:46,750
or may not feel that they can
take in both their teaching
803
00:38:46,750 --> 00:38:47,800
and their research.
804
00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:51,550
So I think it's critical
that we'd be ever mindful
805
00:38:51,550 --> 00:38:55,420
of the balance between
the contract faculty,
806
00:38:55,420 --> 00:38:57,160
as you say in the tenure line.
807
00:38:57,160 --> 00:39:01,780
I've been asked to remind
folks to post questions
808
00:39:01,780 --> 00:39:04,090
that they'd love to see
our panelists address.
809
00:39:04,090 --> 00:39:08,230
And before we turn to the
participants questions, we'd love
810
00:39:08,230 --> 00:39:11,290
to turn to you, Jonathan, you may
811
00:39:12,370 --> 00:39:16,510
the most recent participant
in the faculty hiring
812
00:39:16,510 --> 00:39:18,490
and tenure review process.
813
00:39:18,490 --> 00:39:21,040
And I don't know if you have a
perspective on this question.
814
00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:24,550
- Yeah, well I think one
thing I'll speak to pick up on
815
00:39:24,550 --> 00:39:28,300
that was nicely said by my co-panelists is
816
00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:31,390
so I mean, first off,
817
00:39:32,950 --> 00:39:35,740
we are not just researchers,
we are teachers.
818
00:39:35,740 --> 00:39:36,790
And in a lot of ways I think
819
00:39:36,790 --> 00:39:39,370
that teaching is the more
important part of the job
820
00:39:39,370 --> 00:39:42,520
and needs to be taken,
treated as seriously.
821
00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:44,980
And related to that on the research side,
822
00:39:46,300 --> 00:39:50,200
it is certainly true that over
specialization has become a
823
00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:53,110
more and more dominant feature
of a lot of disciplines
824
00:39:53,110 --> 00:39:54,730
and for understandable reasons.
825
00:39:55,840 --> 00:39:59,800
But we ought to spend more
time reflecting broadly on
826
00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:03,430
how the kind of synthetic
thinking that was taken
827
00:40:03,430 --> 00:40:06,220
to be an important part of being part
828
00:40:06,220 --> 00:40:07,960
of these disciplines has waned a bit.
829
00:40:10,210 --> 00:40:13,540
And we might even connect
this full circle by returning
830
00:40:13,540 --> 00:40:14,800
to the founding itself.
831
00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:17,260
When I'm trying to get students
832
00:40:17,260 --> 00:40:21,430
or people today to think,
think more deeply about it,
833
00:40:21,430 --> 00:40:25,780
I often start from the premise
they didn't have disciplines
834
00:40:25,780 --> 00:40:27,250
as we understand them.
835
00:40:27,250 --> 00:40:29,890
So for instance, in the space
of constitutional history
836
00:40:29,890 --> 00:40:31,120
that I spent a lot of time in,
837
00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:34,060
they didn't think there was such a thing
838
00:40:34,060 --> 00:40:35,830
as constitutional law.
839
00:40:35,830 --> 00:40:37,870
And for them, the study of law
840
00:40:39,310 --> 00:40:42,850
Automatically incorporated
the study of politics,
841
00:40:42,850 --> 00:40:47,350
human nature, sociology,
history, morality, philosophy.
842
00:40:47,350 --> 00:40:50,290
It was an integrated field
of knowledge where you needed
843
00:40:50,290 --> 00:40:54,910
to understand the whole
picture to better understand
844
00:40:54,910 --> 00:40:58,510
how a legal community would work well as,
845
00:40:58,510 --> 00:41:01,150
as just from the standpoint of history.
846
00:41:01,150 --> 00:41:04,660
Even if one focuses a lot of their time
847
00:41:04,660 --> 00:41:08,200
as a research scholar in
one particular corner,
848
00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:11,560
how can you make broader
connections either from
849
00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:14,140
how you run workshops or the
kinds of courses you teach?
850
00:41:14,140 --> 00:41:17,710
Not just that, but as part
of what you're trying to do.
851
00:41:17,710 --> 00:41:20,890
I love teaching broader
survey courses precisely
852
00:41:20,890 --> 00:41:23,950
because it forces me
to think synthetically
853
00:41:23,950 --> 00:41:26,350
and it is not some
service item on the side.
854
00:41:26,350 --> 00:41:29,710
Few things have helped my
research more than being forced
855
00:41:29,710 --> 00:41:33,130
to draw connections
between parts of American
856
00:41:34,100 --> 00:41:36,530
or with American history in
other parts of the world.
857
00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:40,250
I mean, I've gained some
the things that I'm sort
858
00:41:40,250 --> 00:41:43,850
of most interested in as a
researcher from really trying
859
00:41:43,850 --> 00:41:45,560
to think broadly and synthetically
860
00:41:45,560 --> 00:41:49,190
or team teaching, you know,
teaching with a law professor
861
00:41:49,190 --> 00:41:50,900
who approaches things very differently.
862
00:41:51,950 --> 00:41:53,960
So I, you know, I think that needs to,
863
00:41:56,030 --> 00:41:57,410
when we do hiring
864
00:41:57,410 --> 00:42:01,490
and when we promote
colleagues up, I think we,
865
00:42:01,490 --> 00:42:02,750
we should be encouraging
866
00:42:02,750 --> 00:42:06,470
and emphasizing all of the
ways in which that other domain
867
00:42:06,470 --> 00:42:10,445
of thinking can be central
to, to what we're doing
868
00:42:10,445 --> 00:42:12,225
and not be so siloed.
869
00:42:13,445 --> 00:42:16,250
- Yes. I mean, to your point,
the dynamic relationship
870
00:42:16,250 --> 00:42:18,260
between teaching and research,
871
00:42:18,260 --> 00:42:21,710
sometimes my greatest research
ideas have come from the
872
00:42:21,710 --> 00:42:25,130
teaching and really in this
synthetic fashion as you said.
873
00:42:25,130 --> 00:42:29,390
And then of course I can
try out my research in my
874
00:42:29,390 --> 00:42:33,350
classes and get feedback
from our students.
875
00:42:33,350 --> 00:42:37,820
So first question has been
posted and here we go.
876
00:42:37,820 --> 00:42:41,060
Students need wonder and curiosity,
877
00:42:41,060 --> 00:42:44,570
but citizens need passion, trust,
878
00:42:44,570 --> 00:42:46,670
belief, and belonging.
879
00:42:46,670 --> 00:42:51,230
Wow. Citizenship is in
some sense of faith.
880
00:42:51,230 --> 00:42:53,120
What is the role of history
881
00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:57,650
as a discipline in telling
a story that can nurture
882
00:42:57,650 --> 00:43:02,150
and sustain a faith in
democracy and civic action?
883
00:43:02,150 --> 00:43:05,150
That is a fabulous
question and quite erudite.
884
00:43:05,150 --> 00:43:07,250
So who would like to
885
00:43:07,250 --> 00:43:10,640
take a crack at this
question about faith in
886
00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:12,590
democracy and civic action?
887
00:43:12,590 --> 00:43:13,820
Something that each
888
00:43:13,820 --> 00:43:16,130
of you have touched upon
in your remarks already?
889
00:43:16,965 --> 00:43:18,920
- Well, I can, well, I I could start
890
00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:20,510
as a yes, German historian.
891
00:43:20,510 --> 00:43:24,050
So last semester I taught
a course on Germany since
892
00:43:24,050 --> 00:43:25,550
1871.
893
00:43:26,510 --> 00:43:31,340
And the teaching the Weimar period
894
00:43:31,340 --> 00:43:33,680
was a very interesting thing.
895
00:43:34,520 --> 00:43:39,320
I decided once I, I
realized that the students
896
00:43:39,320 --> 00:43:44,320
presumed that the, the end of the war,
897
00:43:44,420 --> 00:43:47,210
first World war and the Nazi period
898
00:43:47,210 --> 00:43:50,120
were inevitably collect
connected, that I needed
899
00:43:50,120 --> 00:43:52,850
to do some work on contingency.
900
00:43:52,850 --> 00:43:56,690
So I did a whole lecture
called Killing Democracy,
901
00:43:57,980 --> 00:44:00,800
and which I talked about,
there's a very famous
902
00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:04,160
cartoon from the magazine,
SMUs, which there are all sorts
903
00:44:04,160 --> 00:44:07,190
of Germans holding up
signs with the letters
904
00:44:07,190 --> 00:44:08,570
that spell Republic,
905
00:44:08,570 --> 00:44:10,850
but the question is,
who holds up the spirit?
906
00:44:11,720 --> 00:44:15,860
And so we discussed in detail, you know,
907
00:44:15,860 --> 00:44:19,010
why did Weimar fail on?
908
00:44:19,010 --> 00:44:24,010
And partly it was a lack
of will on the part of,
909
00:44:24,560 --> 00:44:26,330
of those who could have stopped it
910
00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:31,950
and decisions that were
made in the later twenties.
911
00:44:31,950 --> 00:44:36,180
There were certainly other
factors, but to get closer
912
00:44:36,180 --> 00:44:38,700
and closer to the event and to do a more
913
00:44:38,700 --> 00:44:43,380
and more detailed discussion
about which pieces fell in
914
00:44:43,380 --> 00:44:45,900
place for this to happen, I think was a,
915
00:44:45,900 --> 00:44:48,750
a really good discussion
both of contingency
916
00:44:48,750 --> 00:44:51,390
and then also of the loss of faith
917
00:44:51,390 --> 00:44:54,900
and what the loss of faith
does to kind of take the,
918
00:44:54,900 --> 00:44:58,650
you know, take the air out of,
919
00:44:58,650 --> 00:45:00,660
of our institutions.
920
00:45:00,660 --> 00:45:04,740
So that was one case of, of being able
921
00:45:04,740 --> 00:45:08,700
to teach faith albeit negatively.
922
00:45:09,660 --> 00:45:12,990
But I'm interested in
what my colleagues might
923
00:45:12,990 --> 00:45:15,360
might say about how they would do that.
924
00:45:15,360 --> 00:45:18,660
- Thank you. And that's a
fabulous example, Jeffrey.
925
00:45:18,660 --> 00:45:20,100
We'd love to hear your thoughts.
926
00:45:20,100 --> 00:45:22,440
- Yeah, I, I mean I think
it's a great question
927
00:45:22,440 --> 00:45:24,330
and I think it's the kind of
question that would make a lot
928
00:45:24,330 --> 00:45:25,560
of professional historians kind
929
00:45:25,560 --> 00:45:26,850
of squirm in their seat, right?
930
00:45:26,850 --> 00:45:30,150
Because I think there's a
great polarization really
931
00:45:30,150 --> 00:45:32,130
between the popular interest in history
932
00:45:32,130 --> 00:45:33,530
and in American history and,
933
00:45:33,530 --> 00:45:36,090
and the western history,
which is kind of looking
934
00:45:36,090 --> 00:45:39,150
for inspiration and uplift often and,
935
00:45:39,150 --> 00:45:42,330
and our professional attitudes,
936
00:45:42,330 --> 00:45:45,360
which were often more
critical, little world weary,
937
00:45:45,360 --> 00:45:47,550
maybe one could even
say sometimes cynical.
938
00:45:47,550 --> 00:45:49,290
And in that divide I think is a lot
939
00:45:49,290 --> 00:45:51,090
of our problems in higher ed generally.
940
00:45:51,090 --> 00:45:52,410
But I also think it's one
941
00:45:52,410 --> 00:45:54,930
of the reasons professional academics tend
942
00:45:54,930 --> 00:45:56,670
to shy away from things
like civic education,
943
00:45:56,670 --> 00:45:58,440
and I do not think they should.
944
00:45:58,440 --> 00:46:00,360
So I have a phrase I use
here, I say I'm trying
945
00:46:00,360 --> 00:46:02,640
to teach the students kind
of critical appreciation.
946
00:46:02,640 --> 00:46:06,810
In other words, they have to,
we we, we have to be willing
947
00:46:06,810 --> 00:46:09,210
to uplift them to give them some sense
948
00:46:09,210 --> 00:46:12,330
of a shared national experience
or even global experience
949
00:46:12,330 --> 00:46:16,020
or experiences inheritors of
the kind of western tradition,
950
00:46:16,020 --> 00:46:18,810
no matter what our personal
background might be.
951
00:46:18,810 --> 00:46:20,670
And I think that also requires, so
952
00:46:20,670 --> 00:46:22,170
that's one thing I
would say that you, you,
953
00:46:22,170 --> 00:46:24,540
you can't shy away from
this to some extent and,
954
00:46:24,540 --> 00:46:26,100
and be afraid of it for fear
955
00:46:26,100 --> 00:46:28,380
of looking naive as an academic.
956
00:46:28,380 --> 00:46:30,840
But the, but the other
thing I would say is one
957
00:46:30,840 --> 00:46:32,340
of the great challenging
things to do with,
958
00:46:32,340 --> 00:46:36,660
with modern students
is to get them to think
959
00:46:37,830 --> 00:46:41,730
broadly and not to measure
all historical experience
960
00:46:41,730 --> 00:46:44,790
by their own experience,
not to think of everything
961
00:46:44,790 --> 00:46:47,040
as a projection of their
own individual identity
962
00:46:47,040 --> 00:46:48,660
or opinions and so forth.
963
00:46:48,660 --> 00:46:50,460
And I don't mean to be critical
of students when I say this.
964
00:46:50,460 --> 00:46:52,680
I think there's a lot of
factors of our society
965
00:46:52,680 --> 00:46:55,590
that make even adults do this.
966
00:46:55,590 --> 00:46:57,510
But I I, I mean, I do
think a sort of sense of
967
00:46:58,740 --> 00:47:03,510
a broad tradition that one
can critique, criticize,
968
00:47:03,510 --> 00:47:04,680
but also benefit from
969
00:47:04,680 --> 00:47:07,860
and learn from no matter
your own individual heritage.
970
00:47:07,860 --> 00:47:09,510
I think this is the
important thing to kind
971
00:47:09,510 --> 00:47:12,900
of always keep in mind
when one's instructing in
972
00:47:12,900 --> 00:47:14,880
and again, the field, field
973
00:47:14,880 --> 00:47:17,910
and content that would be
relevant to civic education.
974
00:47:17,910 --> 00:47:21,120
And I think that's, that's
another important thing
975
00:47:21,120 --> 00:47:23,280
to keep, keep on the table.
976
00:47:23,280 --> 00:47:24,900
- Jonathan would love to turn to you
977
00:47:24,900 --> 00:47:28,500
and I'll just seed folks
thinking about the next question
978
00:47:28,500 --> 00:47:30,370
that has been asked.
979
00:47:30,370 --> 00:47:33,790
And that is with the advent of ai,
980
00:47:33,790 --> 00:47:37,600
I wonder if you all would
speak to how you are advocating
981
00:47:37,600 --> 00:47:41,110
for historical thinking skills as part
982
00:47:41,110 --> 00:47:44,020
of the human skills value that we need
983
00:47:44,020 --> 00:47:45,310
to strengthen in students.
984
00:47:45,310 --> 00:47:50,080
So Jonathan, dealer's choice
as to whether you start
985
00:47:50,080 --> 00:47:51,670
with this question about AI
986
00:47:51,670 --> 00:47:55,240
or continue with the question about faith.
987
00:47:55,240 --> 00:47:58,180
- Yeah, I mean, AI is
the hardest nut to crack.
988
00:47:58,180 --> 00:48:00,820
So I'll, I'll start with
the, the much easier one.
989
00:48:00,820 --> 00:48:03,040
How we instill passion and faith.
990
00:48:03,040 --> 00:48:04,570
So the way I think I'll approach it is
991
00:48:04,570 --> 00:48:08,440
because so much of my teaching
is focused on the founding
992
00:48:08,440 --> 00:48:10,000
of the United States
993
00:48:10,000 --> 00:48:13,450
and the creation of the institutions
994
00:48:13,450 --> 00:48:18,370
and symbols that often are
at the center of these,
995
00:48:18,370 --> 00:48:20,650
these charge disputes.
996
00:48:20,650 --> 00:48:22,600
And what I, what I try to get past,
997
00:48:22,600 --> 00:48:24,520
because it's the familiar framing
998
00:48:24,520 --> 00:48:26,170
and I understand why it exists,
999
00:48:26,170 --> 00:48:29,200
and it needs to be a starting
point, is well, do you,
1000
00:48:29,200 --> 00:48:30,820
do you honor what happened?
1001
00:48:30,820 --> 00:48:33,880
Or are we here to indict What happened?
1002
00:48:33,880 --> 00:48:35,230
Are we, is are we sort
1003
00:48:35,230 --> 00:48:38,980
of focused on something
more patriotic or we,
1004
00:48:40,150 --> 00:48:42,130
or something more cynical and critical?
1005
00:48:43,180 --> 00:48:47,230
And the seesaw can be very
debilitating 'cause it,
1006
00:48:47,230 --> 00:48:49,840
and not least because it
can, it can render a more
1007
00:48:49,840 --> 00:48:52,930
and more superficial engagement
1008
00:48:52,930 --> 00:48:55,060
with the very thing that we're debating.
1009
00:48:56,470 --> 00:48:59,680
And a way to get to get past this
1010
00:48:59,680 --> 00:49:03,010
that I think is quite
powerful, I have found
1011
00:49:03,010 --> 00:49:08,010
for igniting the kind of
civics conversations we need
1012
00:49:08,140 --> 00:49:11,860
is to emphasize how the
founding generation,
1013
00:49:11,860 --> 00:49:13,270
and I always say generation,
1014
00:49:13,270 --> 00:49:15,190
because the large diverse group of people
1015
00:49:15,190 --> 00:49:16,900
who bitterly disagreed on, you know,
1016
00:49:16,900 --> 00:49:20,350
performed the essential
practice of Republican
1017
00:49:20,350 --> 00:49:23,920
and democratic politics
of not agreeing on, on,
1018
00:49:23,920 --> 00:49:25,630
on the direction of the republic,
1019
00:49:26,950 --> 00:49:29,500
that whatever else one
might say about 'em,
1020
00:49:29,500 --> 00:49:31,840
they were quite emphatic that
1021
00:49:32,860 --> 00:49:36,190
republican institutions, Republican laws,
1022
00:49:36,190 --> 00:49:39,460
Republican constitutions were
only ever as good ultimately
1023
00:49:40,300 --> 00:49:44,050
as the quality of citizenry that one had.
1024
00:49:44,050 --> 00:49:45,940
So if you didn't add a Republican people
1025
00:49:45,940 --> 00:49:49,210
and a Republican culture,
nothing else really mattered,
1026
00:49:49,210 --> 00:49:50,470
which is why they said time
1027
00:49:50,470 --> 00:49:54,220
and again, what is the essential
ingredient of a free state
1028
00:49:54,220 --> 00:49:58,150
of a, of a republic, a
well-informed citizenry.
1029
00:49:58,150 --> 00:50:01,060
'cause if the citizenry
is not well-informed, most
1030
00:50:01,060 --> 00:50:02,920
of the world lives under despotism
1031
00:50:02,920 --> 00:50:06,130
because ignorance is
the foundation of that.
1032
00:50:06,130 --> 00:50:10,630
Hmm. Well, so to the question,
1033
00:50:11,500 --> 00:50:14,170
well, the system doesn't
seem to be working today.
1034
00:50:14,170 --> 00:50:17,830
If they were here, why did
you guys design it this way?
1035
00:50:17,830 --> 00:50:20,650
They would say, well, it's only as good
1036
00:50:20,650 --> 00:50:23,290
as the civic culture that surrounds it.
1037
00:50:23,290 --> 00:50:25,750
So you can't set up a set of institutions
1038
00:50:25,750 --> 00:50:28,490
or rules of the game
that will self execute.
1039
00:50:28,490 --> 00:50:32,540
If, if the broader body
politic is in some ways
1040
00:50:33,410 --> 00:50:38,410
rotten, then that's where
the solution needs to lie.
1041
00:50:38,420 --> 00:50:41,330
So here we have, you know, a
different way of thinking about
1042
00:50:41,330 --> 00:50:45,170
how, how might we be, you know, energized
1043
00:50:46,190 --> 00:50:48,590
by the study of the early United States.
1044
00:50:48,590 --> 00:50:50,750
And rather than say, you
know, should we, what,
1045
00:50:50,750 --> 00:50:53,600
what it would mean to honor
someone like Thomas Jefferson in
1046
00:50:53,600 --> 00:50:57,800
a lot of ways would be to
take seriously his his claim
1047
00:50:57,800 --> 00:51:00,170
that the earth belongs to the living.
1048
00:51:00,170 --> 00:51:03,230
And that you cannot be a
good democratic citizen
1049
00:51:04,070 --> 00:51:06,980
unless you are invested in
the work of making it happen.
1050
00:51:08,180 --> 00:51:12,680
You're certainly not going to
save democracy by figuring out
1051
00:51:12,680 --> 00:51:15,800
how to best, you know, honor those past,
1052
00:51:15,800 --> 00:51:18,890
nor are you gonna do it by not
knowing anything about them.
1053
00:51:18,890 --> 00:51:22,760
You're going to do it by
recognizing that the kind
1054
00:51:22,760 --> 00:51:24,890
of civic work that they
thought was essential
1055
00:51:24,890 --> 00:51:28,610
to all the big ideas they
floated around was the predicate.
1056
00:51:29,660 --> 00:51:32,510
And if you're not engaged
in civic associations
1057
00:51:32,510 --> 00:51:35,150
of some kind doing all those
things Tocqueville described
1058
00:51:35,150 --> 00:51:37,130
that made Americans uniquely democratic,
1059
00:51:38,900 --> 00:51:40,460
well then it's, it's not gonna work.
1060
00:51:40,460 --> 00:51:42,560
And that, that should be empowering
1061
00:51:42,560 --> 00:51:44,960
because it's, this is not on autopilot,
1062
00:51:44,960 --> 00:51:46,820
this doesn't just work.
1063
00:51:46,820 --> 00:51:50,420
There's only works if each
generation takes the essential
1064
00:51:50,420 --> 00:51:52,940
work of being a Republican citizen
1065
00:51:52,940 --> 00:51:54,740
and wanting to live in a republic
1066
00:51:54,740 --> 00:51:56,150
where people know what's going on
1067
00:51:56,150 --> 00:51:57,260
and are capable of doing
1068
00:51:57,260 --> 00:51:59,540
what Thomas Payne radically
said people could do.
1069
00:51:59,540 --> 00:52:01,040
And others said what's wrong?
1070
00:52:01,040 --> 00:52:04,520
They can exercise this thing
they have called common sense
1071
00:52:04,520 --> 00:52:07,430
to reach true conclusions about the world
1072
00:52:07,430 --> 00:52:09,530
that would allow them to
enjoy political power.
1073
00:52:10,670 --> 00:52:12,650
You know, in some ways every generation
1074
00:52:12,650 --> 00:52:14,150
of Americans are tested.
1075
00:52:14,150 --> 00:52:16,460
Can that proposition indeed be true?
1076
00:52:16,460 --> 00:52:17,870
- Well, your comments in those
1077
00:52:17,870 --> 00:52:21,380
of our fellow panelists have
underscored in my mind the
1078
00:52:21,380 --> 00:52:24,260
centrality of education, access
1079
00:52:24,260 --> 00:52:27,950
to education including higher
education, which is under
1080
00:52:27,950 --> 00:52:32,570
threat, but also as you say,
voluntary associations rise
1081
00:52:32,570 --> 00:52:35,570
of voluntary associations
in the 19th, 20th century.
1082
00:52:35,570 --> 00:52:39,140
Civic associations, civic participation.
1083
00:52:39,140 --> 00:52:42,200
And so what do we do about ai?
1084
00:52:42,200 --> 00:52:46,550
How do we promote historical
1085
00:52:46,550 --> 00:52:51,080
thinking in an age where many are sort
1086
00:52:51,080 --> 00:52:55,760
of handing over their
thinking, if you will, to ai?
1087
00:52:55,760 --> 00:52:59,510
So how are you wrestling with
that either in the classroom
1088
00:52:59,510 --> 00:53:01,610
or curricular development?
1089
00:53:01,610 --> 00:53:02,780
We'd love to hear,
1090
00:53:02,780 --> 00:53:06,200
and again, possibly from
the a HA perspective,
1091
00:53:06,200 --> 00:53:08,960
and I don't mean to put
you on the spot, Suzanne,
1092
00:53:08,960 --> 00:53:12,710
but how, how have you been
wrestling with these questions?
1093
00:53:12,710 --> 00:53:15,890
- Well, this is one of
the great questions all
1094
00:53:15,890 --> 00:53:18,140
of our colleagues are
asking, both for teaching
1095
00:53:18,140 --> 00:53:19,760
and for research purposes.
1096
00:53:19,760 --> 00:53:22,520
We had a task force that produced a kind
1097
00:53:22,520 --> 00:53:24,870
of a best practices.
1098
00:53:24,870 --> 00:53:26,280
Not everyone agreed with that.
1099
00:53:26,280 --> 00:53:29,130
We had a lot of critical feedback
1100
00:53:29,130 --> 00:53:34,020
because it is just absolutely
not something that people
1101
00:53:34,020 --> 00:53:37,560
yet know how to deal with or,
or, or an agreement about.
1102
00:53:38,430 --> 00:53:42,750
It seems to me that one of the
things to respond is to just
1103
00:53:43,650 --> 00:53:46,650
remind people that that
actually doing history,
1104
00:53:46,650 --> 00:53:49,680
writing history is a creative enterprise.
1105
00:53:49,680 --> 00:53:53,550
It is not just piling up facts,
which of course data can do.
1106
00:53:53,550 --> 00:53:56,730
And that could be very
helpful to have someone
1107
00:53:56,730 --> 00:53:59,160
or something help you pile that up.
1108
00:53:59,160 --> 00:54:02,790
But look at also that massive increase
1109
00:54:02,790 --> 00:54:05,280
of historical podcasts.
1110
00:54:05,280 --> 00:54:06,870
People wanna hear stories,
1111
00:54:06,870 --> 00:54:11,040
they actually do wanna know
in detail what happened
1112
00:54:11,040 --> 00:54:13,410
and why it happened and who was involved.
1113
00:54:13,410 --> 00:54:16,260
And we can tell stories.
1114
00:54:16,260 --> 00:54:18,840
AI is not very good at telling stories
1115
00:54:18,840 --> 00:54:21,030
and especially not
stories that have the kind
1116
00:54:21,030 --> 00:54:25,530
of creative dynamics that make for a good,
1117
00:54:25,530 --> 00:54:27,000
a good historical account.
1118
00:54:27,870 --> 00:54:30,630
So, I mean, I'm not particularly afraid
1119
00:54:30,630 --> 00:54:33,750
of it anymore than my
colleagues in law or business
1120
00:54:33,750 --> 00:54:37,110
or creative writing,
1121
00:54:37,980 --> 00:54:42,980
but I do think that it, it
necessitates us underscoring just
1122
00:54:43,140 --> 00:54:47,460
how important our expertise is in
1123
00:54:47,460 --> 00:54:50,730
sorting that data and evaluating it
1124
00:54:50,730 --> 00:54:54,720
and using our, our comparative knowledge
1125
00:54:54,720 --> 00:54:59,400
to tell good and and compelling stories.
1126
00:54:59,400 --> 00:55:01,140
And if we need to, you know,
1127
00:55:01,140 --> 00:55:05,070
underscore expertise a
bit more, I'm all for that
1128
00:55:05,070 --> 00:55:07,590
because I think, I think
we are not machines
1129
00:55:07,590 --> 00:55:11,940
and we should be proud of that fact.
1130
00:55:11,940 --> 00:55:16,440
- Yes. And there's been a
decades long incursion on
1131
00:55:16,440 --> 00:55:19,140
expertise, if you will, Jeffrey, we'd love
1132
00:55:19,140 --> 00:55:20,790
to hear your thoughts on this question.
1133
00:55:22,470 --> 00:55:24,000
- Well, I'm very concerned about it
1134
00:55:24,000 --> 00:55:27,300
and particularly for, for young people.
1135
00:55:28,710 --> 00:55:30,810
A lot of us have a more
benign attitude about it.
1136
00:55:30,810 --> 00:55:32,970
I think because we were
trained differently
1137
00:55:32,970 --> 00:55:35,370
and this didn't displace
aspects of our education,
1138
00:55:35,370 --> 00:55:37,830
we're rather kind of adding
it as a kind of value add.
1139
00:55:37,830 --> 00:55:40,950
But for those, for those raised on it,
1140
00:55:40,950 --> 00:55:43,710
I think it's replacing
two skills in particular
1141
00:55:43,710 --> 00:55:46,050
that are dangerous for people in terms
1142
00:55:46,050 --> 00:55:47,730
of their civic knowledge
and historical knowledge.
1143
00:55:47,730 --> 00:55:49,800
And one is the capacity to write.
1144
00:55:50,640 --> 00:55:53,760
And the other is, and this is
becoming increasingly clear
1145
00:55:53,760 --> 00:55:57,750
to me, the capacity to
read Mm, To read the books,
1146
00:55:57,750 --> 00:56:02,190
to follow linear arguments,
to follow complex arguments,
1147
00:56:02,190 --> 00:56:03,810
to follow narratives.
1148
00:56:03,810 --> 00:56:06,150
And I I'm very concerned about that.
1149
00:56:06,150 --> 00:56:07,770
I mean, I think for the historian
1150
00:56:07,770 --> 00:56:09,750
and for the person concerned
with civic education, both
1151
00:56:09,750 --> 00:56:11,610
of these skills are essential.
1152
00:56:11,610 --> 00:56:13,380
Students will often say, well,
I don't, I'm not gonna have
1153
00:56:13,380 --> 00:56:15,960
to write papers in my
job or even as a citizen,
1154
00:56:15,960 --> 00:56:18,300
but of course we don't
make them write papers so
1155
00:56:18,300 --> 00:56:18,990
that they can write more
1156
00:56:18,990 --> 00:56:20,430
papers unless they're
gonna go to grad school.
1157
00:56:20,430 --> 00:56:23,860
But rather because writing
papers is how you learn to think.
1158
00:56:23,860 --> 00:56:27,430
We think verbally, we, we argue
verbally, we structure good,
1159
00:56:27,430 --> 00:56:30,250
valid, logical arguments
verbally and linguistically.
1160
00:56:30,250 --> 00:56:32,560
And so learning to write
is to learn to think.
1161
00:56:32,560 --> 00:56:35,560
And if we're outsourcing that, I'm,
1162
00:56:35,560 --> 00:56:37,900
I'm afraid complex thinking is gonna be
1163
00:56:37,900 --> 00:56:39,310
increasingly difficult for students.
1164
00:56:39,310 --> 00:56:41,260
And I do think students,
even the best students
1165
00:56:41,260 --> 00:56:43,150
who are having difficulty
reading long books
1166
00:56:43,150 --> 00:56:46,900
or best thing attached to arguments.
1167
00:56:47,985 --> 00:56:51,430
So I mean, I I'm afraid I'm a
bit of a pessimist about this.
1168
00:56:51,430 --> 00:56:52,690
I mean, how are we handling it?
1169
00:56:52,690 --> 00:56:55,030
Well, I wish I had invested in
whatever company produces the
1170
00:56:55,030 --> 00:56:57,400
blue book because we're, we're
all going back to Blue Books.
1171
00:56:58,720 --> 00:56:59,950
But of course they can't write cursive
1172
00:56:59,950 --> 00:57:01,000
either, so this is a problem.
1173
00:57:01,000 --> 00:57:03,400
So they yes. Process as they
can for an hour and they're,
1174
00:57:04,960 --> 00:57:08,200
but you know, we're, we're having to
1175
00:57:09,670 --> 00:57:11,320
reduce the number of pages we read,
1176
00:57:11,320 --> 00:57:12,940
but at the same time try
1177
00:57:12,940 --> 00:57:15,340
to preserve the reading of whole texts.
1178
00:57:15,340 --> 00:57:16,810
And so that does kind of limit the
1179
00:57:16,810 --> 00:57:18,460
curriculum to some extent.
1180
00:57:18,460 --> 00:57:21,430
Yes. But I think the, the
compromise has to be on
1181
00:57:21,430 --> 00:57:23,020
that side more than we would like,
1182
00:57:23,020 --> 00:57:25,690
rather than giving them
a thousand small chunks
1183
00:57:25,690 --> 00:57:27,370
of text from a thousand different sources
1184
00:57:27,370 --> 00:57:29,590
and trying to educate all
the other, sometimes you have
1185
00:57:29,590 --> 00:57:34,590
to sort of bear the cost of the
more attentive, slow patient
1186
00:57:34,690 --> 00:57:36,850
and then try to convince
them of the value of this
1187
00:57:36,850 --> 00:57:38,950
and the enjoyment that
they can get out of it.
1188
00:57:38,950 --> 00:57:40,810
Because if you just try to convince them
1189
00:57:40,810 --> 00:57:43,990
that it's a skill, they're
not gonna believe you.
1190
00:57:45,070 --> 00:57:48,160
Yeah, yeah. 'cause ai, ai is
a, is a, is a time saver and,
1191
00:57:48,160 --> 00:57:49,390
and, and an efficiency.
1192
00:57:49,390 --> 00:57:51,730
So if, if you're, if you're
convincing of it's a job skill
1193
00:57:51,730 --> 00:57:53,860
for various careers that doesn't work.
1194
00:57:53,860 --> 00:57:58,360
It has to be something more
of a life enrichment process.
1195
00:57:58,360 --> 00:58:01,300
- Yes. It strikes me that you've
brought us full circle back
1196
00:58:01,300 --> 00:58:05,560
to where Suzanne started
us with wonder, wonder
1197
00:58:05,560 --> 00:58:07,870
and curiosity and awe
1198
00:58:07,870 --> 00:58:10,600
and how do we infect our students.
1199
00:58:10,600 --> 00:58:13,720
With that, Jonathan, you're
going to bring us home
1200
00:58:13,720 --> 00:58:17,320
and then I will highlight
for folks our next webinar.
1201
00:58:17,320 --> 00:58:19,120
Sure.
1202
00:58:19,120 --> 00:58:20,890
- Well, it's a very difficult problem
1203
00:58:20,890 --> 00:58:22,210
and part of it is we don't quite
1204
00:58:22,210 --> 00:58:24,100
know what it's gonna become.
1205
00:58:24,100 --> 00:58:26,020
First thing you can do is
try to place it in historical
1206
00:58:26,020 --> 00:58:28,270
perspective, and you can take
some comfort from this is
1207
00:58:28,270 --> 00:58:30,070
hardly the first time.
1208
00:58:30,070 --> 00:58:33,970
That is sort of disruptive
technology led people
1209
00:58:33,970 --> 00:58:35,440
to think the sky was falling.
1210
00:58:36,700 --> 00:58:38,620
But you never quite know if it's
1211
00:58:38,620 --> 00:58:40,630
categorically distinct or not.
1212
00:58:40,630 --> 00:58:43,630
I mean, an example at the
founding is the massive explosion
1213
00:58:43,630 --> 00:58:46,540
of cheap print really put
a lot of stress on the idea
1214
00:58:46,540 --> 00:58:48,520
of a free press and let a
lot of people say, well,
1215
00:58:48,520 --> 00:58:50,320
we think people should
be able to freely print
1216
00:58:50,320 --> 00:58:52,720
what they want, but
they can't criticize the
1217
00:58:52,720 --> 00:58:53,830
government that way.
1218
00:58:55,060 --> 00:58:56,200
And the people on the other side
1219
00:58:56,200 --> 00:58:58,540
who took the more libertarian
approach that said, no,
1220
00:58:58,540 --> 00:59:02,320
I think we need to bear that
cost ultimately, why not?
1221
00:59:02,320 --> 00:59:03,490
And we can see that with a sense
1222
00:59:03,490 --> 00:59:04,570
of distance and perspective.
1223
00:59:04,570 --> 00:59:06,820
But what I might just add is,
you know, you can try to get
1224
00:59:06,820 --> 00:59:10,720
through 'em by say, you know,
you're never gonna get strong
1225
00:59:10,720 --> 00:59:12,790
or fit in the gym no matter
1226
00:59:12,790 --> 00:59:14,440
how much you read about weightlifting.
1227
00:59:15,340 --> 00:59:17,830
And this is no, this is
no different. I've tried.
1228
00:59:17,830 --> 00:59:18,910
Right, exactly.
1229
00:59:18,910 --> 00:59:20,890
There's, I mean, at some point,
1230
00:59:20,890 --> 00:59:22,910
if you don't flex the muscles
1231
00:59:22,910 --> 00:59:26,840
and you're not going to do
cultivate this particular kind
1232
00:59:26,840 --> 00:59:28,490
of strength and ability,
1233
00:59:29,690 --> 00:59:32,090
and then maybe once you've,
you've kind of gotten in to see
1234
00:59:32,090 --> 00:59:34,760
that, well why would you want
this strength and ability?
1235
00:59:35,600 --> 00:59:37,070
And I think some of it might be, well,
1236
00:59:37,070 --> 00:59:40,070
the reason the humanities are
important, it is that domain
1237
00:59:40,070 --> 00:59:44,180
of knowledge that is not
reduced to algorithmic thinking.
1238
00:59:44,180 --> 00:59:48,440
What is the meaning of
stuff ultimately is,
1239
00:59:48,440 --> 00:59:51,770
is the kind of thing that, I
mean, that that'll be the sort
1240
00:59:51,770 --> 00:59:55,250
of final challenge for AI to conquer
1241
00:59:55,250 --> 00:59:57,860
because whatever AI produces,
it still leads the question.
1242
00:59:57,860 --> 00:59:59,720
And what does it mean,
what does it add up to?
1243
01:00:00,590 --> 01:00:03,080
And you'd like to think that
the people who have been asking
1244
01:00:03,080 --> 01:00:05,990
that kind of question about
related things will be the last
1245
01:00:05,990 --> 01:00:10,460
one standing to say, well,
we, we can now easily,
1246
01:00:10,460 --> 01:00:12,920
someone can easily put together the book
1247
01:00:12,920 --> 01:00:15,860
that we were writing, but now
who's gonna say what it means?
1248
01:00:15,860 --> 01:00:17,690
What did that why it's significant.
1249
01:00:17,690 --> 01:00:21,320
- Yeah. - Yes. And that's why
we're all here. Yes, Jeffrey,
1250
01:00:21,320 --> 01:00:23,180
- Just very quickly,
I I, I agree with this
1251
01:00:23,180 --> 01:00:26,810
and I do think AI is a real
opportunity for the humanities,
1252
01:00:26,810 --> 01:00:29,720
actual, I think we're starting
to see that on, on campuses,
1253
01:00:31,820 --> 01:00:35,570
but only, only if we can
reconnect it and make it relevant
1254
01:00:35,570 --> 01:00:37,735
and make it broad again and, and,
1255
01:00:37,735 --> 01:00:40,820
and sort of in, in some sense,
1256
01:00:42,410 --> 01:00:45,530
open it up to the public and, and, and,
1257
01:00:45,530 --> 01:00:47,960
and bring that constituency
and that support back.
1258
01:00:48,890 --> 01:00:53,180
- Yes. And I, I thank you so
much to our fabulous panelists.
1259
01:00:53,180 --> 01:00:57,740
I think you really have
highlighted what the value
1260
01:00:57,740 --> 01:00:59,900
and really the promise
1261
01:00:59,900 --> 01:01:03,200
of historical engagement
is in civic education
1262
01:01:03,200 --> 01:01:06,860
and indeed engagement with
the liberal arts more broadly.
1263
01:01:06,860 --> 01:01:09,140
So thank you to our panelists
1264
01:01:09,140 --> 01:01:12,080
and just wanna highlight
for our next webinar,
1265
01:01:12,080 --> 01:01:15,920
it's on May 13th, also
at 9:00 AM Pacific Time,
1266
01:01:15,920 --> 01:01:19,430
can civic Education be Liberal?
1267
01:01:19,430 --> 01:01:23,270
And we'll be featuring
Melinda Zuck, Joseph Neuenburg
1268
01:01:23,270 --> 01:01:26,240
and Benjamin Story, and
I hope you'll join us.
1269
01:01:26,240 --> 01:01:28,910
Also, information about
joining the Alliance
1270
01:01:28,910 --> 01:01:31,940
for Civics in the academy is in the chat.
1271
01:01:31,940 --> 01:01:33,500
Thank you so much for joining us.
1272
01:01:33,500 --> 01:01:34,820
I loved our conversation
1273
01:01:34,820 --> 01:01:37,730
and look forward to it
continuing. Thank you again.
1274
01:01:37,730 --> 01:01:38,395
- Thank you. Thank you, Mary.