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00:00:09.199You're listening to the Talking DT Podcast.
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00:00:09.839I'm Dr.
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00:00:14.800Alison Hardy, a writer, researcher, and advocate of design and technology education.
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00:00:19.199In each episode, I share views, news, and opinions about DT.
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00:00:33.920Thinking back now to the conversation, I just think her drive and her motivation to support the young people she works with is inspirational.
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00:00:39.039So I hope you enjoy listening to this as much as I enjoyed having the conversation with Sarah.
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00:00:52.000And she's really humble, and I think that is a great recognition of how people like Sarah who support design and technology lessons are in real life.
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00:00:57.359She sees herself as part of the team, recognises the value of everybody around.
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00:01:00.799I really, really, as I said, enjoyed this conversation.
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00:01:02.560Sara.
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00:01:16.000And she's really humble, and I think that is a great recognition of how people like Sarah, who support design and technology lessons, are in real life.
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00:01:21.359She sees herself as part of the team, recognises the value of everybody around.
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00:01:24.719And I really, really, as I said, enjoyed this conversation.
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00:01:33.040We were working in bubbles, which wasn't sort of normal, but it became normal for me.
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00:01:45.120And then it was very strange when we went back to um prior to bubbles, it was a bit of an odd situation, but um we rumbled on through like everybody, um, and we learned a lot from it, I think.
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00:01:48.319Um so yeah, that's how I found myself there.
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00:01:48.719Right.
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00:01:54.000Um coming from a background of primary education, so it was quite an interesting shift.
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00:01:56.799Yeah, and how long had you worked in primary?
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00:02:08.719So I was in a primary education for nine years, um, and then I deviated completely out of the classroom to museum and heritage education, which was really interesting.
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00:02:12.719Um, lots of crossover with skills, but then lots of new skills as well.
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00:02:13.680Yeah, yeah.
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00:02:17.439So you've had a you've had a varied background to come to this point.
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00:02:18.560Definitely.
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00:02:23.919So within the department, you're attached to design and technology.
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00:02:26.319So what does that mean?
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00:02:36.719Because I think you I think you said when you started at the school, you actually were working with particular pupils and you went around their lessons, and then there was a change to be an attached department.
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00:02:39.439So so how does that differ for you?
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00:02:44.639Um, well, me and my team have found it really good, actually.
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00:02:55.360Um, initially it felt very strange because traditionally we always followed the specific students around um and supported them in whichever lessons they needed help in.
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00:02:59.120Um, and then Arsenco suggested a bit of a change.
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00:03:02.719Um, thinking about working to our strengths as a team.
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00:03:12.800Um, we were allowed to sort of give a bit of um a choice to say, where would you like to be, what, where would be good for you, where do you feel your strengths are?
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00:03:15.759Um, and then we we were sort of assigned to departments.
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00:03:17.680There is a little bit of flex in there.
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00:03:21.919Um, if support's needed elsewhere and we're not needed in tech, we'll go where we're needed.
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00:03:34.159But what we found is it's been a really effective way to build up our confidence as LSAs because the curriculum content becomes really familiar, uh, you're engaged in it all the time.
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00:03:41.840Um, so you build up really um strong backgrounds and extensive knowledge, and the students then feel more confident to ask you for help.
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00:03:53.120Um staff also are sharing constantly good practice, they're sharing all the background to their projects, and you start to just it just grow, you you just grow with the role.
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00:04:06.560Um it also means that it's consistent for the students when they come in to tech, there's always a familiar face and they they feel confident and comfortable around you um knowing that you know your stuff, if that makes sense.
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00:04:07.360Yeah.
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00:04:11.360Um, and it really helps build a really good relationship with the teachers as well.
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00:04:18.399I think when you're going from class to class, department to department, it's really hard to make connections with staff.
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00:04:23.600Um, it's a fleeting chat here and there at the beginning or the end of a lesson, and then you're on to the next.
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00:04:29.040And you could be going across campus, so it ends up being sort of a I'm really sorry, I've got to go.
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00:04:47.120Um, whereas when you're in the department all day, you're you're building up an idea of everyone's teaching styles or what they might need you to get out ready, or you actually have time to have that quick conversation or debrief and going from one lesson to another because you're only going next door, so um, or upstairs.
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00:04:48.959So it works really, really well.
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00:04:50.480Um right.
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00:04:54.240And so can you tell me about some typical lessons?
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00:04:56.560So I presume you've been in design and technology today.
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00:04:59.680So tell me about some of the things that happened in the lessons today.
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00:05:05.439Um, well, it's really varied, um, as any tech teacher would know.
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00:05:18.399Um, and I love that I can go one minute I'm doing a practical cooking lesson, the next minute I'm sewing in the textiles room, then I'm downstairs working with wood, then we're on computer doing some sort of CAD design.
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00:05:22.000Um, so it's really, really varied and really enjoyable in that way.
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00:05:24.879And I just feel like my skill set widens every time.
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00:05:32.000And also being able to go, right, okay, switch that hat on.
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00:05:36.079I've got have had my chef hat on, now I've got my my workshop hat on.
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00:05:38.160Um, and I really like that.
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00:05:40.959It it keeps it interesting and engaging.
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00:05:46.000Um, so a typical day for us could be any of those things.
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00:05:50.800Today there was um lots of cover, as unfortunately we were a staff member down.
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00:05:51.120Right.
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00:05:59.439Um, so there was lots of um lots more kind of um computer-based work and textbook-based work than than normal.
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00:06:07.600But then I was in with year 10 doing their um NEAs and their practical practices.
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00:06:14.079So again, getting stuck in aprons on and helping them conduct experiments.
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00:06:16.720So, yeah, it's been quite an interesting day.
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00:06:25.600So, in terms of your role as in learning support in a lesson, what what sort of form does that take then?
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00:06:32.959It really varies depending on the needs of that particular student and also the context of the lesson.
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00:06:42.079So, for example, a practical lesson, uh, sometimes students with any kind of additional need might actually come into their own in that particular lesson.
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00:06:54.240They might be quite comfortable and confident when it's practical, and it might be the more sort of written or reading and writing-based lessons where um I'm needed more by those students.
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00:07:06.079And usually if they're comfortable and confident doing a practical lesson, I might be needed by somebody else who can cope with reading and writing-based activities really well.
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00:07:18.319But when the practical element comes in, they're suddenly the winds come out of their cells a little bit and they're a bit nervous or worried or not confident in their skills, and then I find myself assisting them.
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00:07:18.720Right.
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00:07:32.000So even though we are there for specific students, um, generally our focus is on our EHCP students naturally, um, or anybody that's on the send register or provision map, we will help everybody.
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00:07:36.079I'm just gonna hold you there because some people listening won't know some of those terms.
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00:07:39.040So ECH ECHP.
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00:07:41.839EHCP, EHCP.
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00:07:42.879Okay, there we go.
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00:07:47.040So that is an educational healthcare plan.
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00:08:07.040So um that plan is put in place for somebody, usually with a diagnosis, usually where outside agencies have been involved, um, and they've come together and written a plan that's really individualized and specific to that student and helps them get the right targeted support in their lessons.
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00:08:19.360Um, and also with often one-to-one support with some kind of role in the school with an LSA, or it could be with the Senko, or it could be with another trusted adult.
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00:08:28.079And that's done in conjunction with county and with the Senko and with the parents and the student.
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00:08:30.079So everyone's views come together.
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00:08:40.879Sometimes external um support is a is we take advice as well from there, and that formulates the EHCP educational healthcare plan.
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00:08:52.559Um, and that is a legal document, so any support that's outlined in there, it is our legal obligation that that must be given, and there could be allocated funding for that as well.
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00:08:55.360So it's really important that those students get that support.
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00:09:02.000So those students are always our priority and anybody with any identified need.
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00:09:08.799Um, but just when you're in the classroom and you see somebody in in need, you're gonna jump in and help anyway.
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00:09:13.919Yeah, so I wouldn't say that we only focus on those students.
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00:09:15.759Uh we'll help whoever needs help.
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00:09:16.399Right.
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00:09:23.919Okay, so obviously I don't want you to reveal any details about children, okay.
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00:09:25.919That's not that's not what I'm asking.
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00:09:36.639But but I think what people would be interested in finding out a little bit more about is uh what might some of the children who've got a plan.
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00:09:45.600What's the some sort of the specific support you find yourself giving or planning to give in a D ⁇ T lesson?
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00:09:51.919I think some people might because not everybody will have the benefit of having somebody like you in in the lesson.
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00:09:59.519So I think it'd be really interesting for other people to hear a little bit about that, about what works well and what what sort of role you take in those situations.
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00:10:10.480Well, it really depends on the needs of the student, but uh quite often we find it we could be dealing with someone who's got maybe some sensory needs.
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00:10:10.720Right.
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00:10:20.000So we might be putting things in place like ear defenders, or for example, a student had a particular aversion to certain smells in food tech.
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00:10:23.279And um, it was actually the student's idea.
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00:10:37.840He used a face mask and he wore it um and he used some scented drops inside the face mask um so that when he was working with that particular food, he could just smell his favourite essential oil smell instead.
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00:10:40.480Um, things like that we're facilitating.
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00:10:46.320Things like maybe supporting somebody, understanding instructions.
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00:11:00.080It could be that they've been a bit distracted and they've missed sections of the instructions that have been given by the teacher, or it could be that their processing skills are a bit slower than other students, so they maybe have just missed some key details.
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00:11:05.440So we often find ourselves going back over instructions to ensure their understanding.
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00:11:23.120Um we're always trying to encourage independence, so much as we're there to support, we're trying to provide a bit of targeted support and then try to step away and see what the student can achieve on their own and just keep touching base with them regularly throughout the lesson.
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00:11:48.080Um we are also doing a lot of help with staying on task because quite often if somebody's feeling anxious or maybe that they don't fully understand, they'll look for something else to occupy their time or become quickly distracted or focusing on what's more interesting to them, and we're kind of trying to bring them back to staying on task, really.
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00:11:54.000Um, so lots of recapping of key information, um, lots of adapting.
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00:11:58.960I mean, our teachers do a great job of adapting activities for our send students anyway.
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00:12:16.080Um, but sometimes we'll just see a point where even though it's been adapted, there's still missing sections or something else needs to be expanded on, or we might even just take a piece of paper and go and blow it up and make it a bit bigger, just so that they're getting a better access.
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00:12:28.240Um, and that's what it's all about, really, just allowing them to access the information and achieve the same outcomes just in their own way and facilitating that as best we can.
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00:12:29.679Right, okay, okay.
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00:12:33.120That's just it's just useful to kind of get that insight.
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00:12:34.399I think that's really interesting.
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00:12:37.919I think I think the role of LSAs like yourself is really developed.
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00:12:51.440I remember a time, you know, when we when you know, when I worked in schools, not for a long time, the LSA, as you were saying, had that more uh common approach of following the pupil around.
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00:13:00.159Um, and sometimes, yeah, as the class teacher, you felt like you wanted to be able to say, could could you step back a little bit?
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00:13:04.639But because you didn't have that relationship, because they were coming in and then going out again.
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00:13:08.799So it wasn't a not a criticism of anybody, but it was you didn't have that opportunity.
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00:13:15.519So you obviously get that within your departments as well to understand, you have a better understanding then of when it's right to step back.
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00:13:17.279Definitely.
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00:13:34.480Um, it's nice to have the autonomy and that we know what we're doing and that the teacher can trust us with certain things, but equally knowing when to step back or to step to the side or to take someone to the side if they need a moment.
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00:13:34.879Yeah.
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00:13:40.799Um, it's it's it's definitely um it's definitely something that's different depending on the teacher as well.
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00:13:47.279You get to know what they like, what they don't like, um, what they prefer, um, and you try to sort of work around that.
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00:13:58.159And and and equally they get to know you and they get to know your strengths and where they they might say, Oh, that that's really great what you're doing, but any chance you could go over and help him because he's really struggling, and I'll take over here.
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00:13:58.320Yeah.
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00:14:03.440And then it becomes like a teamwork thing, and I think that works really effectively.
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00:14:04.080Right.
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00:14:04.559Okay.
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00:14:26.159So that yeah, I can see as you build up that relationship, but I suppose the drawback is, and this isn't kind of where we're going in the conversation, but the the drawback is that because the child then has they've they've come from one lesson to another, you don't necessarily know what's happened in the previous lesson as they as they come in.
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00:14:31.759That's that's the that's the downside of this approach, I would assume, isn't it?
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00:14:38.320Is you know, I yeah, I know somebody who would, you know, who who followed a student.
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00:14:54.399I was talking about this person last night uh in the episode, who followed a student who had Asperger's ADHD, Tourette's dyspraxia, um, and and would recognise when the student needed to take longer before they came into the next lesson.
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00:14:56.399So there's a lot of things.
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00:15:04.720I mean, sometimes on those occasions we've had an LSA come from another department with them, walk them in and just give us a heads up or a nod.
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00:15:07.039Sometimes there's a note on the system.
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00:15:13.440Um, but quite often we've got a really we're really fortunate that we have a fantastic student services department.
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00:15:23.840They tend to focus more on the social, emotional, mental health side of supporting the students, whereas our role tends to be more focused on the learning.
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00:15:25.200But there's a natural crossover.
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00:15:26.080Yeah, of course.
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00:15:30.559Um, and we're really fortunate that that that department runs throughout the school day.
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00:15:38.080So anytime a student's having a wobbly moment, they can use their time out card or just ask to go to student services.
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00:15:55.919So often, in that scenario that you were saying, um the student would have taken themselves off or asked to go down to student services and they just won't appear at the beginning of the lesson, and there'll be a note on the register to say where they are, and they'll just get that little bit of support to help them transition to the next session.
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00:16:11.440So hopefully we're covering that off and and um and trying not, but inevitably it does happen that they flounce in and you're not quite sure what's going on, and you've got to try and establish the facts before they before they um panic and want to leave.
00:16:11.679 -->
00:16:15.519So so let's go back to what what you're doing in the classroom.
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00:16:16.639You talked about adaptations.
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00:16:25.440You talked about sometimes it's about, for example, taking taking the instructions and and making them larger so the children can read them or they can make notes on them.
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00:16:28.879What other sorts of adaptations are you doing with different pupils?
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00:16:41.840Um, so in the past, we've done um, I'm thinking of specific students who had some mobility and movement coordination issues due to their conditions.
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00:16:48.720Um, things that we've done in the past, adaptive equipment in food tech has been really effective.
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00:16:54.559So chopping boards with suction pads underneath to stop the boards moving around.
00:16:54.559 -->
00:17:07.119And you can buy ones that have these um, they're sort of, I'm trying to think of the words, like a like a pegs that stick out, um, yeah, spikes almost, and the vegetable can be put onto that.
00:17:07.119 -->
00:17:09.440So then that nothing's moving around.
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00:17:14.319Yeah, and it just gives them a little bit more opportunity to coordinate themselves.
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00:17:21.279Sometimes it's a case of just, you know, I was working with a student who's who was doing food tech GCC.
00:17:21.279 -->
00:17:29.119Um, it's all about how much you can upskill and show off your flair of what you're doing when you've got cerebral palsy.
00:17:29.119 -->
00:17:33.440You can't cut Julian uh carrots into a tiny thin strip.
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00:17:34.720It's it's really difficult.
00:17:34.720 -->
00:17:37.519So we have to find other ways to upskill.
00:17:37.519 -->
00:17:55.920Um and it could be that the the there's lots of skills involved in that inner recipe or more complex skills, and then that student can uh show off but use um electric um food processes instead of having to chop everything up.
00:17:55.920 -->
00:18:10.079So they're still getting the same outcome, they're still showing um a variety of skills, they've got all those different layers of um flavor going on, maybe multiple courses, um, but they've just had a little bit of extra help with the preparation side of things.
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00:18:15.039And that's been really good because we the last thing any of us would want to do is hold a student back.
00:18:15.039 -->
00:18:20.160We want them to achieve their potential and beyond as much as possible.
00:18:20.160 -->
00:18:28.400That's our job to facilitate that achievement and so that they we they reach the point they're aiming for.
00:18:28.400 -->
00:18:31.680Um, and we're just there to to guide, really.
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00:18:42.960But I think that's really important putting those things in place so that they still get to show off and that they're not being held back in any way, even though they might not be able to do what other students can do.
00:18:43.200 -->
00:18:43.519Right.
00:18:43.519 -->
00:18:45.440Okay, yeah, that's really interesting.
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00:18:47.200It it's quite interesting, isn't it?
00:18:47.200 -->
00:18:51.279Because sometimes actually using the food processor is the best technique anyway.
00:18:51.680 -->
00:18:52.880Yeah, it is.
00:18:52.880 -->
00:19:01.839And obviously it's nice to show off your nice skills, but if you're struggling with coordination, that could just be really frustrating and and really knock your confidence.
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00:19:02.240Yeah.
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00:19:21.599And we want to build them up and motivate them and help them achieve the best that they can in in every lesson, and and especially when it comes to their GCSEs, they've picked it because they love it and because they're passionate about it, and we've just got to help them get there and find a way around barriers.
00:19:23.759 -->
00:19:28.160So you said that some of the teachers were really good at doing adaptations as well.
00:19:28.160 -->
00:19:32.640Have you got any do you want to do you want don't have to name any names because they're probably all gonna listen?
00:19:32.640 -->
00:19:38.559But you know, do you want to give any gold stars out for adaptations that the teachers are making?
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00:19:41.920Best practice that you're seeing, let's put it that way.
00:19:41.920 -->
00:19:42.799Good practice.
00:19:43.119 -->
00:19:43.599Visual aids.
00:19:43.599 -->
00:19:46.079Visual aids are always really good for students.
00:19:46.079 -->
00:19:47.839I mean, they're good for all students.
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00:20:25.599Um I think if someone's if if you're trying to teach children, students to make, I don't know, let's say joints out of wood, if you haven't got a model of what it could look like, I don't want to say should because it looks like whatever it looks like at the end, but but examples, tangible visual examples of what it could look like, um, are really, really vital for all students, but especially for somebody who might struggle to process what you're telling them in 3D.
00:20:25.599 -->
00:20:25.920Yeah.
00:20:25.920 -->
00:20:27.519Um, I certainly struggle with that.
00:20:27.519 -->
00:20:38.559Quite often, if someone gives me a lay plan or some kind of um organizational diagram, I still want to see the 3D image to know how it transfers from one to the other.
00:20:38.559 -->
00:20:40.240And that's as an adult.
00:20:40.240 -->
00:20:47.440So it's really important to have visual aids, not just photographs, but something that students can touch and feel.
00:20:47.440 -->
00:20:48.240Take apart.
00:20:48.240 -->
00:20:49.200Yeah.
00:20:49.200 -->
00:20:50.079Exactly.
00:20:50.079 -->
00:20:54.559And sometimes it's the taking apart that helps you know how to construct it in the first place.
00:20:54.559 -->
00:20:55.599If that makes sense.
00:20:55.599 -->
00:20:57.839Yeah, no, um, yeah, yeah.
00:20:57.839 -->
00:21:03.519Step-by-step photographs, that's a real gold star for one particular teacher.
00:21:03.519 -->
00:21:04.799She's really good at that.
00:21:05.039 -->
00:21:07.359Oh, you can't.
00:21:07.359 -->
00:21:13.359I'm gonna assume I'm gonna assume there's more than one female teacher in the department.
00:21:13.440 -->
00:21:14.160But okay, right.
00:21:14.160 -->
00:21:17.680Several of them do it, but it it's it's fantastic.
00:21:17.680 -->
00:21:33.119It's almost like that little handbook that you need, especially if, for example, you come in to that lesson and you maybe haven't made that project for several terms, you come back to it and you think, oh my goodness, how do I construct this hat?
00:21:33.119 -->
00:21:35.039I can't visualize it.
00:21:35.039 -->
00:21:40.319Um, if there's photographs and step-by-step booklets, and they all use them.
00:21:40.319 -->
00:21:46.960They were made originally for send students, but all the students use them because they just need that little prompt.
00:21:46.960 -->
00:21:49.759Perhaps they were looking out the window when it was explained.
00:21:49.759 -->
00:21:52.559Perhaps they missed the lessons they were doing cross country.
00:21:52.559 -->
00:21:58.240It's just really handy to have those um resources there and just as a bit of a backup.
00:21:58.240 -->
00:22:00.880It's a lot to remember.
00:22:01.440 -->
00:22:01.920No, no, no.
00:22:01.920 -->
00:22:02.400It's okay.
00:22:02.400 -->
00:22:06.079It's a lot to remember when when they're watching a demonstration.
00:22:06.079 -->
00:22:09.519You know, it is it can be cognitive overload, really.
00:22:09.519 -->
00:22:10.400Definitely.
00:22:10.400 -->
00:22:15.359And and and I think, well, if if I'm following instructions, I I keep the recipe.
00:22:15.359 -->
00:22:19.200I don't kind of watch the demonstration, then go away and do it and have to memorize it.
00:22:19.359 -->
00:22:20.240So yeah.
00:22:20.240 -->
00:22:23.200So that's a really good point about recipes as well.
00:22:23.200 -->
00:22:30.319Um, we used to give the students recipe books and they would always forget them, and we were constantly reprinting and things like that.
00:22:30.319 -->
00:22:35.119Now we just keep a set at school and they're A4 size instead of A5.
00:22:35.119 -->
00:22:36.880They're always out on the table.
00:22:36.880 -->
00:22:38.079You can just go and help yourself.
00:22:38.079 -->
00:22:41.440And it's just one less thing for them to remember remember.
00:22:41.440 -->
00:22:46.640And they've always got visuals in, they're always step by step, they're always laid out in the same way.
00:22:46.640 -->
00:22:52.960Those sorts of um repetitive patterns and well-structured resources are really great.
00:22:52.960 -->
00:22:53.599Right.
00:22:53.680 -->
00:22:57.039Okay, so we've got step-by-step photos.
00:22:57.039 -->
00:22:58.319Photos.
00:22:58.319 -->
00:23:00.640Any any other top tips?
00:23:01.599 -->
00:23:14.480Um, I mean, it's always tricky, but processing time is really important for students with additional needs, and time we're always time poor in a school environment.
00:23:14.480 -->
00:23:20.559Um, and naturally, teachers have got things to get through and they've got to get the content delivered.
00:23:20.559 -->
00:23:31.839Um, but any extra processing time that can be given, even if it's I don't know, it's really difficult to give certain students extra processing time and not everybody else.
00:23:31.839 -->
00:23:39.200Um, and equally, if you give too much time, it can be distracting for those who've already finished and then they they're coming off task.
00:23:39.200 -->
00:23:52.400It's a really difficult balance to strike, but any way possible that processing time can be extended, or even put your LSA to say, right, just go back over that bit with them, help them process that last bit of information again.
00:23:52.400 -->
00:23:56.240I'll go, I'll move on slightly with this group, and then you can come and join us.
00:23:56.240 -->
00:23:58.400So how are some strategies like that?
00:23:58.720 -->
00:24:04.240So, how would you support children with that processing time?
00:24:04.240 -->
00:24:06.000Can you give me an example?
00:24:07.839 -->
00:24:16.240I think just recapping, revisiting, um, sometimes it's even getting in there before that lesson.
00:24:16.240 -->
00:24:33.759So, if once you've known the content and you maybe know what's coming in the next few lessons, pre-teaching of vocab key vocabulary and things like that, so that they've already got that lockdown before they then have to deal with that vocabulary is a good strategy that we use sometimes.
00:24:33.759 -->
00:24:42.240Um, even just reading things aloud, quite often it's really easy to put instructions up on a board and say, right, there's your task, off you go.
00:24:42.240 -->
00:24:44.000Um, because you're keen to get started.
00:24:44.000 -->
00:24:46.559The kids are keen to get started and there's lots to get through.
00:24:46.559 -->
00:24:49.920So just taking a moment to go, right, what's Miss R to do?
00:24:49.920 -->
00:24:58.720Should we read it through and just make sure that it's making it from the board into your brain and then transferring into what you're actually doing physically?
00:24:58.880 -->
00:25:00.160Yeah, reading aloud.
00:25:00.559 -->
00:25:23.119I mean, it's so obvious, but it it sometimes we don't stop and and think, you know, um as as as educators about about that processing time uh and how how we structure it, whether it's whether it's helping them to make a note, you know, or even putting the cards in order about which ones do you think we're going to do first, then isn't it?
00:25:23.119 -->
00:25:23.599That's it.
00:25:23.599 -->
00:25:25.759Just taking a breath.
00:25:26.400 -->
00:25:30.079And even sometimes breaking down a task even further.
00:25:30.079 -->
00:25:46.000So there might be three tasks on the board, but number one task has got multiple layers to it, um, which is really overwhelming for somebody, just saying, okay, well, let's break that one down even more, let's make it one A, B, and C rather than just number one.
00:25:46.000 -->
00:25:51.759Um it's just little things that, and sometimes I don't even think we realise we're doing it.
00:25:51.759 -->
00:25:54.799Like you've asked me to give some examples.
00:25:54.799 -->
00:25:58.960I think that they're they're just things that we do without even thinking, right?
00:25:58.960 -->
00:26:01.519You were thinking, right, how can I make this more accessible?
00:26:01.519 -->
00:26:05.519We've we're we're clearly bogged down and overwhelmed and a bit lost.
00:26:05.519 -->
00:26:08.400So let's break it down even further and simplify it.
00:26:08.400 -->
00:26:18.000And like you say, it sounds really obvious and you just sort of do it naturally, but equally it's it's easy for those things to get lost in the rush of the day.
00:26:18.240 -->
00:26:21.279Yeah, so I could see post-it notes becoming really helpful.
00:26:21.279 -->
00:26:28.000Do you know if like you know, teachers putting like we're doing these three things, and as you say, we write things up.
00:26:28.000 -->
00:26:31.680Um you're making me think about my undergraduate teaching I'm gonna do tomorrow.
00:26:31.680 -->
00:26:39.920Um, and you write, you write things up, but you don't realize that there's actually lots of implicit things within it.
00:26:39.920 -->
00:26:41.200That's it.
00:26:41.200 -->
00:26:54.640And yeah, you can see, right, if if if the child was with you or they were, you know, you could even give them a post-it note pack and just say, right, let's let's let's break down what you think the tasks are to be able to do that.
00:26:54.640 -->
00:27:00.000Right, let's do those on a different right, let's just check what order we could approach them in.
00:27:00.000 -->
00:27:03.359Is is there an order we have to do them in, or does it matter?
00:27:03.359 -->
00:27:06.640And and at least then that way they can like tick it off, can't they?
00:27:06.640 -->
00:27:15.039And they they've they've engaged with that and in opposed to the feels like they've achieved something as well, because that's another thing.
00:27:15.200 -->
00:27:38.319If you've got three tasks list up on the board and they look up and they think, oh, I'm never gonna get through all of that, um, even the power of only revealing one task at a time, giving them time to giving the whole class time to do task one, then stopping and pausing and going through task two and then continuing, that's quite powerful in itself, even just breaking it down that it's not even visible.
00:27:38.640 -->
00:27:39.200Yeah.
00:27:39.200 -->
00:27:48.559Or it sometimes um one of my colleagues has done some research about doing demonstrations and design and technology.
00:27:48.559 -->
00:27:58.640Um, you know, because they're a keen, they're a key pedagogical approach we use in D ⁇ T, but sometimes we don't think about how we're again cognitive overload in a demonstration.
00:27:58.640 -->
00:28:10.000Um and and how how much so even in that sort of situation, if there's three break, three, three things, and as you say, you you could just give the overview.
00:28:10.000 -->
00:28:17.200This is what we're working on, this lesson, and there's gonna be three steps, and I'm going to help you manage those three steps.
00:28:17.920 -->
00:28:18.079Yeah.
00:28:18.400 -->
00:28:20.960So let's have a look at those three steps, right?
00:28:20.960 -->
00:28:22.640And then let's cover two up.
00:28:22.640 -->
00:28:24.240Yeah.
00:28:24.240 -->
00:28:26.559And then let's stop and think about.
00:28:26.559 -->
00:28:31.759I'm going to give you a couple of moments just to think about what the order is.
00:28:31.759 -->
00:28:33.759There's no competition, there's no race.
00:28:35.200 -->
00:28:36.079Just take the pressure off.
00:28:36.400 -->
00:28:39.119And when you're ready, you move into doing it.
00:28:39.119 -->
00:28:48.079And I'll give you notice when we're getting towards the end of the time that we're going to work on this, but you're not to worry if you don't get it finished.
00:28:48.480 -->
00:28:56.079Because there is some students that will never get past task one, and it's really feels quite defeating for them.
00:28:56.480 -->
00:28:57.119Yeah.
00:28:57.119 -->
00:29:10.720Because there is also something about satisfaction, completion, and withdrawal, which is a psychological theory, a gestalt theory about, you know, you need so when do you give children that satisfaction?
00:29:10.720 -->
00:29:14.960You know, no, completion, satisfaction, withdrawal.
00:29:14.960 -->
00:29:15.839Do you know what I mean?
00:29:15.839 -->
00:29:26.079So you complete it, you acknowledge the satisfaction of completing it, and then you're able to withdraw by moving away from that onto what whatever the next thing is.
00:29:26.079 -->
00:29:30.640And that that's that's really that's really powerful.
00:29:31.200 -->
00:29:34.480I did a um a training course recently.
00:29:34.480 -->
00:29:42.559Um it's it's run by O'Leavy and it's called the Outstanding Teaching Assistant Programme.
00:29:42.559 -->
00:29:50.559Um, and part of the course we had to devise some sort of resource um that we could then take back to school and and use.
00:29:50.559 -->
00:29:56.400And one of things that all students like is ticking something off when it's done.
00:29:56.400 -->
00:29:57.599And actually, don't we all?
00:29:57.599 -->
00:29:59.119As adults, we love that.
00:29:59.440 -->
00:30:00.160Some kind of journalists.
00:30:00.160 -->
00:30:07.759Hold up my bullet journal with my little squares I I colour in to indicate that I've done that job, you know.
00:30:07.920 -->
00:30:08.160Yeah.
00:30:08.160 -->
00:30:12.160Um, it's satisfying and it makes you feel like you've achieved something.
00:30:12.160 -->
00:30:24.319And so my project that I've that I came up with was it was based on something that I found on the um EEF website, which is the Yeah, Education Endowment Foundation.
00:30:24.319 -->
00:30:25.920Endowment foundation, yeah.
00:30:25.920 -->
00:30:27.279So it's all research based.
00:30:27.279 -->
00:30:30.640And again, the course sort of signposted me to that website.
00:30:30.640 -->
00:30:33.440Um, and I sort of did looked at looked around.
00:30:33.440 -->
00:30:41.920And it was a task planner, and I just kind of rewrote it for our school and for our students and the sorts of things that I thought that they needed.
00:30:41.920 -->
00:30:45.759And it was really just a breakdown of what are we trying to achieve today?
00:30:45.759 -->
00:30:59.440There was a little opportunity to to tick a box, there was also an opportunity to allocate time to it because time management's a massive thing for students with send, in fact, any students, but students would send definitely, how long is that going to take me?
00:30:59.440 -->
00:31:01.839How do I know how long that's going to take me?
00:31:01.839 -->
00:31:03.680How long should it take me?
00:31:03.680 -->
00:31:07.200Just outlining that sometimes um is enough.
00:31:07.200 -->
00:31:24.000Um, and also there was a little bit at the bottom that there would be some sort of reward or some sort of um acknowledgement at the end that if they got through all of those things, or even through one of them, that there was a merit at the end, or that there was a, I don't know, a shout-out, or however your school does it.
00:31:24.000 -->
00:31:35.200Um, and I tried it out on a few students and it it was really interesting because one of them, um, when we broke down the tasks, the immediate feeling was, oh, I'm never going to get through all of those things.
00:31:35.200 -->
00:31:38.880And I was like, it doesn't matter, you're just gonna try.
00:31:38.880 -->
00:31:47.119And um the tick the ticks appeared, and by the end of the lesson, all three ticks were there, and he was like, I can't believe I've done it.
00:31:47.119 -->
00:31:48.799I've ticked everything off.
00:31:48.799 -->
00:31:56.559And it was the same list that the teacher had on the board, but we'd written it in a way that in language that he understood better.
00:31:56.559 -->
00:32:03.039We'd also there was a little box on there for keywords, so we'd uh outlined what the keywords were, checked that he understood them.
00:32:03.039 -->
00:32:05.359Um, and then those ticks meant everything.
00:32:05.359 -->
00:32:06.240Oh, they're powerful.
00:32:06.240 -->
00:32:08.240He wasn't even that bothered about the merit.
00:32:08.480 -->
00:32:10.160It was like, wow, we've done it.
00:32:10.160 -->
00:32:11.920I've I've got through something.
00:32:11.920 -->
00:32:13.839Because it's an internal satisfaction.
00:32:13.839 -->
00:32:15.200That's actually what you're giving them.
00:32:15.200 -->
00:32:20.799Is rather than the external motivation, you're giving them an internal motivation to do it.
00:32:20.799 -->
00:32:23.200So there's that internal and extrinsic.
00:32:23.200 -->
00:32:23.759Yeah.
00:32:23.759 -->
00:32:25.599Um, so yeah, you're making me think around that.
00:32:25.599 -->
00:32:28.000So it might be worth looking at bullet journals.
00:32:28.000 -->
00:32:32.960So the guy who designed bullet journals, he has ADHD.
00:32:32.960 -->
00:32:34.079Okay.
00:32:34.079 -->
00:32:48.799And uh he struggled to focus and um concentrate on his task list because his mind would be coming up with new ideas and new things, and so he has this, and so I it's it's very common.
00:32:48.799 -->
00:32:57.519Um, yeah, and I I know I've I've got a couple of academic friends where we do it because we're kind of managing multiple things, but yeah, I I I get excited.
00:32:57.519 -->
00:32:59.359We might even talk and I thought, oh yeah, I've done that.
00:32:59.359 -->
00:33:07.599I've got a I've gonna I do it because I colour in a little box, you know, I have a little triangle if it's a if it's an activity, and I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna show and tell now.
00:33:07.599 -->
00:33:16.319So yeah, so I plan out my week, you know, so so I know what I'm doing, and then it helps me think about whether I'm overloading on a day.
00:33:16.640 -->
00:33:18.640And it makes you feel calmer, I think.
00:33:18.799 -->
00:33:19.759Yeah, yeah.
00:33:20.079 -->
00:33:33.279Because you've but by doing that, you've processed a lot of the information already, and you've set yourself some targets and you've it's manageable, and I think when you write it for yourself, you do it in your own way, works really well, yeah.
00:33:33.359 -->
00:33:48.799And we do do something else with um, I work with a colleague with um around academic writing, and um, because you know, obviously in academia we're kind of expected to write, write a lot, but to be motivated can be quite difficult, and we also be get really ambitious.
00:33:48.799 -->
00:33:58.319And um, I I run writing retreats and I I use this colleague's um model, and she gets us to write targets at the beginning of the day.
00:33:58.319 -->
00:33:59.839Okay, right.
00:33:59.839 -->
00:34:07.759So but to be really specific, and we have to write them in full sentences because her logic is well, you're gonna be writing in full sentences to get the practice in.
00:34:07.759 -->
00:34:16.880You know, and then for each target, you have to say how many words that is gonna be.
00:34:16.880 -->
00:34:18.000Ooh.
00:34:18.000 -->
00:34:28.559So that helps keep you focused because you think, well, if I'm gonna write an abstract, for example, that's normally 250 to 400 words, or I'm going to write um my literature review.
00:34:28.559 -->
00:34:33.199And I can hear her saying, no, you're not gonna write literature view, which have you got an outline?
00:34:33.199 -->
00:34:34.320Have you structured it?
00:34:34.320 -->
00:34:36.159Do you know how many words you're doing in each bit?
00:34:36.159 -->
00:34:41.840Do what the focus is, and so she's doing exactly the same thing that you're talking about.
00:34:41.840 -->
00:34:50.239So then when we start a session, we don't write for more than an hour and a half, we have to say out loud what our target is to somebody else.
00:34:50.239 -->
00:34:54.639And we never go back to that person because you're not being monitored.
00:34:54.639 -->
00:34:58.639You always go to talk to somebody else, which is really interesting.
00:34:58.639 -->
00:35:01.280But saying it out loud helps you, yeah.
00:35:01.280 -->
00:35:03.519And then the other person can give you feedback.
00:35:03.519 -->
00:35:04.400Is that too much?
00:35:04.400 -->
00:35:05.760Is that too little?
00:35:05.760 -->
00:35:07.440Right.
00:35:07.440 -->
00:35:10.400And then you sit and you write, and she starts just by very calmly.
00:35:10.400 -->
00:35:13.360And I do this in my writing retreats, let's write.
00:35:13.360 -->
00:35:24.719And then I give a five-minute warning, you know, we're gonna finish in five minutes, and when we do finish, I say, right, make sure you saved your work, write down what you've got done and what you're going to do next.
00:35:24.719 -->
00:35:28.400Okay, and then when we come back after the break, it's easy.
00:35:28.400 -->
00:35:35.360But the key thing is at the end of the day, we reflect on the targets that we thought we were going to achieve.
00:35:35.360 -->
00:35:39.199So, like you were saying about putting on the times, how long they thought it would take.
00:35:39.199 -->
00:35:44.800So we do it with words, is I said I was gonna write 1500 words today.
00:35:44.800 -->
00:35:57.119Actually, I've written 1200, but I've done three diagrams, or I've done 1200 because actually, and over time you start to get a better understanding of, well, if I'm doing that sort of writing, that's realistic.
00:35:57.119 -->
00:36:06.719If I'm doing that sort of writing, you know, if I'm gonna be doing if I'm doing analysis, go, I'm not gonna get more than 400 words done in an hour and a half.
00:36:06.719 -->
00:36:15.760But if I'm doing the description of my method of my data collection, I could write, you know, it's gonna be like dead quick because it's you're just writing a process.
00:36:15.760 -->
00:36:23.039And so that's another way of maybe thinking about a modification, is like, well, was I was I realistic?
00:36:23.039 -->
00:36:40.480And so then that helps them, so then it helps them understand for the next time is looking back and thinking, okay, if I didn't get all that done, maybe I need to be, you know, take a little bit of a different approach.
00:36:40.480 -->
00:36:42.960Yeah, it's it's quite so I like the idea of your task planner.
00:36:42.960 -->
00:36:44.960Sorry, I've kind of gone off on a bit of a tangent there.
00:36:44.960 -->
00:36:46.079That's all right.
00:36:46.079 -->
00:36:57.920But that's that's that's quite an interesting approach, and you can see children that you're working with in DNT, particularly on a on a on a design project, you know, being able to do that for themselves.
00:36:58.239 -->
00:37:01.760And sometimes a practical lesson can be a bit overwhelming.
00:37:01.760 -->
00:37:10.239You walk in and you know that you're working towards the end project, but there's so many little steps in the way, and think, well, how many of those am I going to get done today?
00:37:10.239 -->
00:37:15.360And how many people are using the saws and how many people are using the sandpaper, and will they be enough for me?
00:37:15.360 -->
00:37:19.840And yeah, just planning it and structuring it and also um adapting it.
00:37:19.840 -->
00:37:23.119We adapted it for um for the NEA.
00:37:23.119 -->
00:37:35.760Sometimes when you're working on sections of the NEA with students, um, you know, certain sections are are longer than the others, or they're more visual, or and it knowing how long they should be, how long it's gonna take.
00:37:36.320 -->
00:37:38.000Yes, it's definitely helped.
00:37:38.000 -->
00:37:40.320So we've got some good practice.
00:37:40.320 -->
00:37:55.360All right, so we're not gonna name any names of the teachers, but have you have you so we always do uh with our student teachers, um two keep doings, two one stop doing and one do more of.
00:37:55.360 -->
00:37:56.320Okay.
00:37:56.320 -->
00:38:00.079Oh no, one do one one start doing.
00:38:00.079 -->
00:38:00.559Okay.
00:38:00.559 -->
00:38:01.760One start doing okay.
00:38:01.760 -->
00:38:03.840So so this this is a safe place, Eric.
00:38:03.840 -->
00:38:06.320You can you can you can say out loud.
00:38:06.719 -->
00:38:10.559So what do you want the one doing on one stop stop doing?
00:38:10.559 -->
00:38:14.079Okay, you've put me on the spot now.
00:38:14.079 -->
00:38:27.119I have um I don't know if there's nothing if there's nothing that's absolutely fine.
00:38:27.199 -->
00:38:28.800I have put you on the spot.
00:38:29.119 -->
00:38:40.000But but maybe there's so much that the department do well and that the staff do well that should be celebrated, really.
00:38:40.000 -->
00:38:40.400Right.
00:38:40.400 -->
00:38:43.199Um I I was I was being unfair.
00:38:43.199 -->
00:38:44.239I was being unfair.
00:38:44.239 -->
00:38:45.360I'll have a think.
00:38:45.360 -->
00:38:48.320It's one start doing, one stop doing.
00:38:49.599 -->
00:38:57.039Um it sounds like you've got a good relationship anyway, so yeah, we really do.
00:38:57.199 -->
00:39:05.199Um I've I I think what I love about our department is I'm included in every lesson.
00:39:05.199 -->
00:39:08.559It's um it's ask me or miss.
00:39:08.559 -->
00:39:11.840They always refer to me when they're giving their instructions to the students.
00:39:11.840 -->
00:39:14.159If you need help, just come and ask me or ask miss.
00:39:14.159 -->
00:39:15.440I'm part of the team.
00:39:15.440 -->
00:39:15.840Yeah.
00:39:15.840 -->
00:39:17.679Um, I always get thanked.
00:39:17.679 -->
00:39:22.559And then because they've thanked me, the students thank me on the way out, which is lovely.
00:39:22.559 -->
00:39:36.239Um, I'm always encouraged, I'm always put forward for courses or training, even little things like um, I'm on the I'm on the department WhatsApp, you know.
00:39:36.239 -->
00:39:42.960Um, I get invited to socials that they go out on as a team, which, you know, I don't, I would never expect that.
00:39:42.960 -->
00:39:48.400It that's their downtime, but they they always include us, because there's a there's a couple of us actually.
00:39:48.400 -->
00:39:53.679Um it's mostly me, but there is a couple of LSAs that work across tech as well, not just me.
00:39:53.679 -->
00:39:56.559We're all invited, we're all asked our thoughts.
00:39:56.559 -->
00:40:06.880Um, even things like at the end of the year when all the results come out, um, or when they're dealing with subject uptake, we're included on all of the emails.
00:40:06.880 -->
00:40:08.960Oh, we've got this many for next year.
00:40:08.960 -->
00:40:11.360So we're part of the department.
00:40:11.360 -->
00:40:11.679Yeah.
00:40:11.679 -->
00:40:15.440Um, you're part of the planning, not just not just the lessons.
00:40:15.440 -->
00:40:16.239Exactly.
00:40:16.239 -->
00:40:19.840Their results are shared, uh, their progress is shared.
00:40:19.840 -->
00:40:26.960Um, so then whilst the teachers are targeting certain areas, we also know what they're targeting, so we can support that too.
00:40:26.960 -->
00:40:29.840Um that that's really important.
00:40:29.840 -->
00:40:30.639Keep doing.
00:40:30.639 -->
00:40:31.920That's my keep doing.
00:40:32.079 -->
00:40:34.000That's a really good keep doing.
00:40:34.000 -->
00:40:36.719That's a that's such a powerful, yeah.
00:40:36.719 -->
00:40:49.039Because the the culture maybe has been in the past as you know, the the Senko and the LSAs were seen as very separate, and it sounds like your approach is much more integrated and part of the team.
00:40:49.360 -->
00:40:54.800It definitely feels that way, and I think the students feel that too when they come in the room.
00:40:54.800 -->
00:41:00.559Yeah, that's that's a real that's a real and sometimes they'll come over to me and go, Miss, I've forgotten my apron.
00:41:00.559 -->
00:41:06.400I'm like, you still have to go and tell sir that you forgot it over to me.
00:41:06.400 -->
00:41:19.360And yeah, it's gonna be like then you build that relationship, and that's an interesting one actually that we haven't touched on.
00:41:19.360 -->
00:41:38.400Um the interest, the difference between how the students treat teachers compared to how they treat LSAs, and and there is a marked difference, even though the respect level um across the school it it it's any member of staff you treat with respect, and and they do, but there's there is a slight difference.
00:41:38.400 -->
00:41:43.199There's almost like a a softer um approach.
00:41:43.199 -->
00:41:47.519They will come and talk to me about things that they won't go and admit to the teacher, like that.
00:41:47.519 -->
00:41:52.800I forgot my apron or can I go to the toilet, knowing the teacher's gonna say no, and they think I'm gonna say yes.
00:41:52.960 -->
00:41:54.960Yes, so it's good, good cop, bad cop.
00:41:55.199 -->
00:41:56.079Yeah, yeah.
00:41:56.079 -->
00:42:04.960And sometimes we do do that, um, you know, if we need to, because we have to maintain that relationship with the students.
00:42:04.960 -->
00:42:18.159I mean, teachers do too, but but we do have that that closeness where you are often one-to-one with the student, and and if they don't trust you or feel comfortable around you, um, it it makes our job much harder.
00:42:18.159 -->
00:42:19.679Yeah, yeah.
00:42:20.159 -->
00:42:23.039Well, look, Sarah, it's just been a real delight.
00:42:23.039 -->
00:42:24.800It's been a real delight chatting to you.
00:42:24.800 -->
00:42:29.920And I know I kind of put you on the spot there, but um, you know, and I hope you don't mind that.
00:42:29.920 -->
00:42:36.480I kind of talked a little bit in the middle about bullet journals and tasks, but I thought that was that was really interesting about the work that you've done.
00:42:36.480 -->
00:42:46.800Um and that that processing, I think that is such a powerful message that hopefully people listening will will take away about giving that processing time.
00:42:47.519 -->
00:42:52.480Thanks for giving me some time to talk about the role and um to talk about tech.
00:42:52.480 -->
00:42:52.960It's great.
00:42:52.960 -->
00:42:54.000Yeah, it is a privilege.
00:42:54.079 -->
00:42:57.360Yeah, it's no, it's a privilege, it's a privilege to have the time with you, so thank you.
00:42:57.360 -->
00:43:06.960Because we're we're talking what it's seven minutes past nine on a Wednesday evening, and uh you found the time to to to chat with me, and I really I really do appreciate that.
00:43:06.960 -->
00:43:08.320So thanks ever so much.
00:43:08.559 -->
00:43:10.320Well, thank you for the invitation.
00:43:10.320 -->
00:43:13.119Go and admit to the teacher like that.
00:43:13.119 -->
00:43:16.880I forgot my acronym or can I go to the toilet knowing the teacher's gonna say no?
00:43:16.880 -->
00:43:25.599And sometimes we do do that, um, you know, if we need to, because we have to maintain that relationship with the students.
00:43:25.599 -->
00:43:38.719I mean, teachers do too, but but we do have that that closeness where you are often one-to-one with the student, and and if they don't trust you or feel comfortable around you, um, it it makes our job much harder.
00:43:38.960 -->
00:43:40.239Yeah, yeah.
00:43:40.239 -->
00:43:43.679Well, look, Sarah, it's just been a real delight.
00:43:43.679 -->
00:43:45.440It's been a real delight chatting to you.
00:43:45.440 -->
00:43:50.559And I know I kind of put you on the spot there, but um, you know, and I hope you don't mind that.
00:43:50.559 -->
00:43:57.119I kind of talked a little bit in the middle about bullet journals and tasks, but I thought that was that was really interesting about the work that you've done.
00:43:57.119 -->
00:43:59.920Um and that that processing, I think that's
00:44:00.159 -->
00:44:13.599Is such a powerful message that hopefully people listening will will take away about giving that processing time and giving me some time to talk about the role and um that's great.
00:44:13.599 -->
00:44:14.559Yeah, it is a privilege.
00:44:14.719 -->
00:44:18.000Yeah it is no, it's a privilege it's a privilege to have the time with you, so thank you.
00:44:18.000 -->
00:44:27.599Because we're we're talking what it's seven minutes past nine on a Wednesday evening, and uh you found the time to to to chat with me and I really I really do appreciate that.
00:44:27.599 -->
00:44:28.880So thanks ever so much.
00:44:28.880 -->
00:44:31.039Well thank you for the invitation.
00:44:31.039 -->
00:44:36.960I'm Dr.
00:44:36.960 -->
00:44:40.800Alison Hardy and you've been listening to the Talking DT Podcast.
00:44:40.800 -->
00:44:48.480If you enjoyed the podcast, then do subscribe on whatever platform you use and do consider leaving a review as it does help others find the podcast.
00:44:48.480 -->
00:44:56.159I do the podcast because I want to support the DT community in developing their practice, so please do share the podcast with your DT community.
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00:45:10.800You can find details about me, the podcast, and how to connect with me on my website, dralisonhardy.com.
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00:45:19.119Links to Speakpipe, Patreon, and my website are in the show notes.
00:45:19.119 -->
00:45:20.800Thanks for listening.
