WEBVTT
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Hey, everyone.
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Welcome back to taking back Monday.
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I am so excited.
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You decided to join us and say goodbye to the Sunday scaries and I'm excited to introduce you to my friend Kolby Goodman.
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Welcome Kolby.
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Thanks for having me again.
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I mean, we do have to shut up the elephant in room.
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This is, this is take two.
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We recorded this episode, what, like a couple of months ago and I went to do the, the editing and I discovered that the file is corrupted.
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So, you know, here we are again.
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I think the, I think the technology gods just wanted us to chat again and I'm not going to resist the gods.
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That's for sure.
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Yeah.
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We don't, we're mere mortals.
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We don't fight with the gods.
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So I guess the question on everyone's mind, Kolby, since you've done this before, have you taken back Monday?
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I think I have.
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Yeah.
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I, you know, on the good one is I have, and on the not so good monies, it's still okay.
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You know, I started my business at this point over 10 years ago.
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I'm helping individuals take back their own careers and helping leaders develop teams that they're excited to lead.
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Uh, Our pleasures to work with and that they trust to do the work.
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And I think most importantly, solve the important problems so that everybody lives a happier, more joyous life at work and everywhere else.
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So you mentioned a keyword in there that I want to, I want to dig into the word trust, right?
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How many millions, if not billions of dollars have been spent on trying to Strategize on how to build trust, and I maybe have a little bit of a hot take.
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I would love your feedback on.
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I actually don't think that trust is something you can build.
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I don't think it's a process that you can, like, gamify or systematize.
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In my view, trust is merely a byproduct of having really good communication with your team, holding everyone accountable.
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Understanding how to motivate them and help them through perseverance and like set those intentions of why are we here?
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What are we doing?
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What is the reason that we want this outcome?
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So I don't believe you can build trust.
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I think trust is just an outcome.
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Interesting.
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Interesting.
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I, I can see that.
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And I think it's, I think with that, what I train my clients to do both on the candidate side and on the leadership side is what's your gut really saying to you?
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Because I think when we get burned by people's situations is because We're trying to justify the action.
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Oh, I need to give them the bed for the doubt.
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Oh, like they're just having a bad day.
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Like, oh, like all these things that we tell ourselves because we don't want to be mean.
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I don't want to be rude.
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And it's, it's a lot easier to live in a world where everybody's trustworthy and likable.
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And I think we have to get burned by that.
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Probably one too many times that we'd like, but we have to get burned by it.
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And I think trusting your gut.
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And that's kind of what I really tell my leadership clients is like, what does your gut say after that conversation?
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Like, no thinking about it.
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Let's just go with it.
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And then from there, we can talk about the logic and the, you know, and the tangibles and all that.
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But what is your gut saying?
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And some people need their gut in tune, tuned up a bit.
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Some people need to just drown out everything else and tune in just to their gut.
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But it's a, I think that is the part of it that is, can be built is that self, you gotta have self trust first before you can understand and trust anybody else.
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I think that's a really important distinction.
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I started my career in a startup.
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So it was just me and a couple of other people.
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And then when I started working with larger clients.
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Uh, where I was coming in and I was consulting with their team and these were these huge consulting or huge companies that I was working with and I found out really quickly that, like, just because I had the best intentions and I wanted the best outcome for the team in the project that not everybody had that.
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I call it like the antibodies.
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Right.
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I recently had a situation.
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I got attacked by an antibody inside of a corporate where I wanted to come in and drive a transformation, make a change, do something.
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And I quickly discovered that I had accidentally stepped into someone's territory.
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And we had a little bit of like a situation because they didn't want me to be successful because they wanted their own thing to be successful.
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So it is definitely like trusting your gut and having the right team in place with the right goals and the right outcomes.
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I
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mean, it's it's really good territorial stuff, right?
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It's like, and that's the thing about management that I don't think enough leaders are ready to take on is you don't just get to manage and lead the professional.
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You have to understand holistically the person.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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You know, it's, it's, it's my joke that.
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If all of our job titles were pinpoint accurate to what we did all day, we would all be professional email responders and meeting attendees.
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And
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when you're a manager, you're an amateur therapist,
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right?
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And so it's your job to, I think, do get curious with other people.
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And I think, yes, like.
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Expect good intentions, but understand true motivation and do that through getting curious and asking good questions.
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And it takes, that takes a heck of a lot longer and more energy than dictation or delegation or punishment.
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But if you can invest that in the short term, your long term as a leader will be more fruitful.
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It will be more enjoyable.
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It will be Honestly, easier because at that point, you are, you're, you're leading, but you're leading leaders how to lead themselves.
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And you may have to rewind the tape back 30 seconds to hear that again.
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Because that was a lot of the same word really quickly.
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But then also, you are there to help people get out of their own way as well.
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I think
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that's what a lot of leadership is just to get people to kind of wake up a little bit, take ownership and get excited about the problems they want to solve.
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And the people they want to sell them with,
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I think I'm going to add another professional job title to professional email responder and professional meeting attendee.
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I think it's also like, as a leader, I feel like I'm a professional contortionist.
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Like, I feel like I have to change my leadership style, depending on who I'm working with.
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So the 1 person that I'm coaching, I might say.
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I can be very direct with them.
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We can have a direct face to face conversation, right?
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They need that direct information.
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I can have a frank conversation with them and they won't get upset or be offended.
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It's just business, right?
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Then I have another person who they're very empathetic and.
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Very good.
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Very good at what they do, but the way you approach motivation, motivating that person and communicating with that person and holding them accountable with necessary is entirely different.
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I have to be a different person depending on who I'm in the room with and I have to do it well and authentically me.
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I mean, it's hard, right?
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Because you're where you, yes, you have to wear these masks, right?
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Yes, masks is the right word.
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And I think it's, I think it's part of a good leader's job to, I think, meet.
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Your team more than halfway, maybe 90 percent of the way to where they are and help them understand the masks that they're wearing and then make it so that you can bring space to make sure everybody meets you.
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Right?
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Because those masks, those personas, those avatars that you have to put on.
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All the time at a moment's notice, maybe multiple times in the same meeting.
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Yeah, that's that's mentally and physically exhausting.
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And so it's no wonder that, you know, leaders feel disconnected.
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They feel resentful.
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They feel like they're babysitting.
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And so, you know, I think there needs to be more open discussion and to bring everybody to the table to say, okay, how.
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What's the best way to work with me?
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I was just trying to look up here.
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And I'll send this over to you after this to put in the show notes because I cannot recall it verbatim right now, but also a podcast a few weeks ago with the woman who was the CEO of Stripe, the payment company.
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Oh, cool.
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She has this thing called a work with me document.
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And I was like, Oh, this is, she said it and it was so obvious and it was so apparent.
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And it's so good.
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You ever have that moment where it's like, when you have like, oh, duh, like, why didn't I know it's so obvious that you
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can't imagine that you didn't think of it first.
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That's when you know, it's good.
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That's when you know, it's the right thing.
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Yes.
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Yes.
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You took the words right out of my mouth.
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Yes.
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That's when you know, it's good.
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And she's just like, this is how I work.
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This is how I like my emails to be written to me.
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This is all this.
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And I, it just brings awareness.
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And I think even, and she said, like, even if people don't abide by this to the letter of the law, it's okay because they're trying their best to meet where I'm at.
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And I also require them to write their own document so I can meet them where they are.
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I love that.
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That is so smart.
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It just makes, you know, it is a, it's a user manual for yourself and for your, your, your team.
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Because I think we, you know, those first, you know, I think, you know, 90 days is.
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Kind of this nice round number, but we suss it out every time, right?
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We just, we, we, we walk on eggshells.
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We don't want to screw up.
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We don't upset anybody, especially as a new employee, but definitely as the leader who brought stuff, brought that person in
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and
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so why not get all of that out in the open, right?
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Like short
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circuit, it shortcut.
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Let's skip to the, let's skip to the last chapter here.
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Like that's smart.
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We don't have time and we don't have the patience to guess and check how to work with each other.
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Let's just be open and honest.
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And I think that can be a real key to avoiding a lot of headache and heartache when it comes to the strife that we tend to experience more than we'd like to admit at work.
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Yeah.
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And to that point though, that requires so much self awareness in order to do that.
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Like I have a vivid memory of putting together a resume for a job in college and I wrote things like what they wanted, which was detail oriented and yada, yada.
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I am not a detail oriented person.
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I'm a big picture thinker.
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Like I am not the person who's going to come in and do a ton of process.
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I'm going to maybe design the process, but I'm not going to be one who can execute it very well.
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And the teams that I've worked best with.
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Just recognize that my like superpower is not to be in the weeds.
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It's to see the entire map, right?
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But I got the job and I hated that job and they didn't really like me either because I wasn't who they were really looking for.
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I wasn't self aware enough to realize, Hey, you're not detail oriented.
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You're not process motivated.
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You're not going to thrive here.
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And none of us were happy.
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And I think that brings such a good point when it comes to hiring correctly.
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And this is my, this is my expertise.
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This is my.
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This is where I get to nerd out is what
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gets you up for Monday morning.
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Yes, absolutely.
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Is that it?
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We tend to evaluate candidates based on what they are or what they say they are.
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Detail oriented.
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I'm a good team player.
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All these things.
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And yes, like we asked quite some of the time when you, when your detail orientation helped you avert disaster, all this stuff.
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Right.
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Right.
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But what we're not doing and what we're hoping a candidate is going to magically guess is really how, how can you help us solve our problems?
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That's why you're hiring somebody.
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That's why you're taking the time and the energy and the money to bring another adult in the room, take the work on.
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So again, let's short circuit it.
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Why are we talking about how a time when somebody dealt with an upset customer, when you can ultimately say, Hey, Right now, we have a problem with customer service.
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Our customers feel like we're short with them, that we don't get back to them in time, and that we're not giving them correct answers.
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How could you help?
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How could you help us solve that problem?
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Have you solved that problem before in the past?
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Have you
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seen someone successfully solve that problem?
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Have you seen someone absolutely fail at solving that problem so we can learn from what they did wrong?
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But we tend to go in these interviews And dance around the real issue.
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Because what I have found is that managers understandably don't want to spoon feed somebody the right answers,
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right?
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They don't
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want to be parroted back what they want to hear.
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But as you've, as you and I found it too, in my own career, I can pair it, what you want me to say, but it doesn't mean I can do what you want me to do.
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I can wear the mask you want me to wear for a short amount of time.
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And then you're going to find out that's not who I really am.
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And that's what I tell my candidate clients is like, I'm going to I, you can fake it.
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Absolutely.
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You can fake it for a couple of hours.
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Yeah.
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Can and what, and do you want to fake it for 40 plus hours a week for the indefinite future?
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Probably not.
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And I would argue that, yeah, you want the job maybe, but you're going to be miserable if it's not who you authentically are, what you authentically enjoy, what you're good at.
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You are not going to enjoy that career and we're talking about more than just like a basic skill set, like fundamentally your natural approach to work and to life, right?
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I can fake being detail oriented, but that's not a skill you can really teach.
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Some people just are that.
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Well, and as a leader, you, you should be having these honest conversations up front.
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And that's what I teach my management and leadership clients is like, how do you drop the facade of the performance of the interview on both sides of it?
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Yeah.
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Right.
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And I think, you know, as the manager, we try to ask a question.
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We try to ask good questions.
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We try to sell the opportunity, try to sell the company.
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But if you can be honest about where are, where are the holes, where are the chinks in the armor?
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I think that gives such a more authentic connection in the interview, because what you're, what you need to make clear to the candidate is you're not looking to hire the most, anything, most experienced, more educated, whatever, looking to hire, right?
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And if this just isn't a right fit, that's okay.
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Nothing wrong to
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you.
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Like, nothing is wrong with you because this wasn't the right fit.
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Or the right time or the right team, like, just because you didn't get the job doesn't mean it wasn't perfect.
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And just because you're didn't find the right candidate.
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The 1st time doesn't mean you can't try again.
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Well, and I think too, and I've, I've seen this happen multiple times with my clients when I've helped them hire new people is like, you know, when we tell somebody, Hey, this is, I don't think this is a good fit for either of us.
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And this is why here's the feedback we want to give you.
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This is what we're expecting.
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And this isn't going to be a good relationship.
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And they, they say, thank you.
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And they appreciate it.
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And they say, well, I'd like to stay in touch.
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And I've had multiple clients say, you know, get post another job and have that same person apply again for a different role.
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And it'd be a great fit.
00:15:19.354 --> 00:15:23.413
And that person is still engaged with the process because we treated them with respect.
00:15:23.484 --> 00:15:26.344
And they also knew this wasn't a performance.
00:15:26.403 --> 00:15:27.453
We want you to be real.
00:15:27.464 --> 00:15:28.423
We want you to be authentic.
00:15:28.464 --> 00:15:29.653
And we want to see if it's a good fit.
00:15:30.924 --> 00:15:34.274
You know, one of the things I've seen going around.
00:15:35.100 --> 00:15:44.340
Like TikTok, the internet, social media, whatever, whatever platform is your platform of choice is this idea that like slamming companies because they didn't hire me.
00:15:44.340 --> 00:15:46.720
They want this and they want that and they can't have everything they want.
00:15:46.720 --> 00:15:47.899
And they didn't want me.
00:15:47.899 --> 00:15:49.889
So obviously they don't know what they're doing.
00:15:50.299 --> 00:15:52.600
Like, there probably is some of that, right?
00:15:52.600 --> 00:16:04.049
There is some of, you know, the, the AI is reading the resume and you didn't optimize it right for their AI or whatever, but, you know, I think right fit matters so much more than right now.
00:16:05.049 --> 00:16:08.289
And that's it's hard.
00:16:08.330 --> 00:16:15.059
That is something I, I totally agree with, but I also understand companies perspective is like, we, we need a body,
00:16:15.590 --> 00:16:15.799
right?
00:16:15.818 --> 00:16:18.110
Sometimes you just need a body and that's when you need a body.
00:16:20.259 --> 00:16:25.090
I think it's about, but I think what we default there too, is like, we need to understand what this person knows.
00:16:26.090 --> 00:16:27.288
I listened to another pod.
00:16:28.038 --> 00:16:28.938
I'm on a podcast.
00:16:28.938 --> 00:16:29.840
I listen to a podcast.
00:16:30.110 --> 00:16:31.399
I'm a walking podcast, I guess.
00:16:32.269 --> 00:16:32.364
I love it.
00:16:32.929 --> 00:16:35.778
.
00:16:32.929 --> 00:16:38.090
Kolby Goodman: I listened to prominent VC in Silicon Valley.
00:16:38.090 --> 00:16:43.188
Started this company called Wealthfront, which does like automatic online investing for you.
00:16:43.610 --> 00:16:43.820
Cool.
00:16:43.850 --> 00:16:46.458
And he said I learned a long time ago.
00:16:46.458 --> 00:16:47.360
I need to stop hiring.
00:16:47.365 --> 00:16:49.958
Know-it-alls, and start learning, uh, testing it.
00:16:49.958 --> 00:16:51.370
Start hiring, learn it alls.
00:16:51.659 --> 00:16:52.070
Yeah.
00:16:52.509 --> 00:16:53.208
And I loved that.
00:16:53.219 --> 00:16:56.610
I was like, well, and it resonated with me because this is what I've been teaching for a decade.
00:16:56.629 --> 00:17:02.429
And it's like, in all reality, as a leader, you do not care what somebody did yesterday.
00:17:02.729 --> 00:17:04.929
You are most concerned with how somebody thinks today.
00:17:05.480 --> 00:17:05.778
And so
00:17:05.778 --> 00:17:07.969
if all of your questions, all of your approach.
00:17:08.500 --> 00:17:22.089
If all your communication with the candidate is about doing of the work versus understanding what's happening between their ears, their logic is, what their motivations are, what is their internal algorithm, then all you're doing is hiring a job doer.
00:17:22.199 --> 00:17:30.559
You're not hiring a problem solver and that job doer that order taker is going to be a liability because you're just, there's going to be a bottleneck there.
00:17:30.730 --> 00:17:37.970
They're going to need a lot of handholding, and they're going to become a plight on your Mondays, Tuesdays, Wednesdays, Thursdays.
00:17:38.263 --> 00:17:41.065
And and honestly, maybe Saturday and 24
00:17:41.085 --> 00:17:41.513
sevens.
00:17:41.864 --> 00:17:41.903
Yeah.
00:17:42.694 --> 00:17:44.085
So let's flip that.
00:17:44.194 --> 00:17:46.734
Let's move away from hiring and move to team dynamics.
00:17:46.734 --> 00:17:55.494
Like, if I'm a leader and, you know, someone was hired, they're not right fit or they were right fit, but not anymore.
00:17:55.564 --> 00:18:01.255
They're not the right fit anymore for where we've gone or where we've, we've like, where we're going.
00:18:02.345 --> 00:18:03.505
Am I, if I'm a leader, yeah.
00:18:04.230 --> 00:18:11.680
Is it my responsibility to push them, grow them, get them to be the right fit or what do I do next?
00:18:12.699 --> 00:18:13.579
It's a really good question.
00:18:14.480 --> 00:18:18.299
It's, I think you need to give them a chance, right?
00:18:18.318 --> 00:18:19.710
Because they cannot read your mind.
00:18:20.608 --> 00:18:22.959
Uh, that's not fair to, to assume that.
00:18:24.019 --> 00:18:30.059
And so as long as you are clearly communicating what you need them to do, but also again, what are the new problems you want them to solve?
00:18:30.750 --> 00:18:34.559
Because I think, especially nowadays where.
00:18:35.180 --> 00:18:38.559
Nobody's getting a gold watch after being at the same company for 30 years.
00:18:38.599 --> 00:18:39.730
There's no more pensions.
00:18:40.579 --> 00:18:45.750
We have to really be more purposeful with our careers.
00:18:46.369 --> 00:18:50.380
Nobody wants to, nobody sees the value of being a cog in the machine anymore.
00:18:51.720 --> 00:18:54.930
And so you have to help them understand this is how we need you to think.
00:18:54.940 --> 00:18:58.108
This is the challenges we want you to take on and take ownership of those things.
00:18:59.128 --> 00:19:04.179
And only, and then, and only then after you've clearly stated that, give them the tools, the training and the chance.
00:19:05.375 --> 00:19:14.005
If they're still not kind of getting getting to a point where they need to perform or they need to impact, then it it's a I think it's it is welcome to let them go.
00:19:15.095 --> 00:19:15.305
Right?
00:19:15.375 --> 00:19:22.664
And make it so that again, it is framed as this is no longer a good fit and do anything bad or wrong.
00:19:23.134 --> 00:19:24.654
This is what we feel like your skills are.
00:19:24.713 --> 00:19:25.424
These are the skills.
00:19:25.473 --> 00:19:27.724
These are the approaches we need in this in this role now.
00:19:27.785 --> 00:19:31.305
And so we'd like to amicably call it a day.
00:19:32.910 --> 00:19:33.880
Yeah, that's so hard.
00:19:33.890 --> 00:19:43.549
Like, it is hard because my, you know, tender, empathetic heart wants to be like, well, you know, they're, they're such a great add to the team culture.
00:19:43.569 --> 00:19:46.309
And, you know, we just like them and we love them.
00:19:46.309 --> 00:19:51.009
And like, you know, the personality hire, if you will, like, that's hard.
00:19:52.058 --> 00:19:52.519
Absolutely.
00:19:52.589 --> 00:19:53.969
It's not easy to let anybody go.
00:19:54.339 --> 00:19:54.769
Right.
00:19:54.799 --> 00:20:12.329
But I think it's, I think as long as you know, as a leader, you've done everything that you can to give them a chance and that doesn't mean, like you said, give them a chance in a way for them and succeed because there is also a place where I know a lot of managers who are enabling bad employees.
00:20:13.589 --> 00:20:16.400
Who give excuses who skirt work who
00:20:16.519 --> 00:20:18.640
well, once upon a time, they were my top seller.
00:20:18.640 --> 00:20:22.680
I know they're not anymore, but, you know, 5 years ago, they were the top seller.
00:20:23.910 --> 00:20:24.099
Right.
00:20:24.099 --> 00:20:25.750
And so understanding that, Hey, what's going on?
00:20:25.990 --> 00:20:38.299
Uh, you know, your productivity is coming off, like, help me understand and kind of bringing out that couch and, and putting on that therapist hat and, and getting real with your, your employees.
00:20:40.890 --> 00:20:41.279
Cause.
00:20:42.984 --> 00:20:55.294
You know, the book difficult conversations is a, I think it's a, it's a must read for every manager, because if you're looking to lead, and if you're looking to get people to produce, then you're going to have to ruffle some feathers.
00:20:55.305 --> 00:20:57.765
You're going to have to have real conversations.
00:20:58.124 --> 00:20:58.433
Yeah.
00:20:58.505 --> 00:20:59.045
I don't know of a
00:20:59.065 --> 00:21:06.164
single leader who has ever led a team of any kind and not had to have difficult conversations on the regular.
00:21:06.529 --> 00:21:06.970
Sure.
00:21:07.450 --> 00:21:14.099
And if you're not good at that, if you're not willing to have them, then you're causing yourself so much more pain and anguish.
00:21:14.250 --> 00:21:26.569
And if you're out there and you found yourself in a role where you're leading, and maybe you were leading not because only you were great at the people aspect, but you were good at the technical aspect, you could do the thing.
00:21:27.000 --> 00:21:27.319
You could
00:21:27.319 --> 00:21:27.789
sell.
00:21:27.859 --> 00:21:28.460
You could.
00:21:29.049 --> 00:21:31.400
Account you could administrate
00:21:31.740 --> 00:21:37.328
so common to, I feel like people get promoted because they were the top performer, not because they were the top leader.
00:21:38.849 --> 00:21:46.190
Well, and this happens so much in 21 and 22 during the great resignation, everybody was switching all the time.
00:21:46.190 --> 00:21:48.559
And so it just was, it was literally a next step situation.
00:21:49.069 --> 00:21:52.450
And so whether or not that person was ready to lead.
00:21:52.809 --> 00:22:04.819
They were tasked with leading and that leader and that opportunity came with obviously a raise and the title bump and a sweetener to the, to the pie, but then they were left hanging because they didn't get any training, any support.
00:22:05.839 --> 00:22:09.078
They maybe not have been even the right person to take on the role.
00:22:09.180 --> 00:22:11.240
And now they're fine.
00:22:11.250 --> 00:22:13.410
They're, they're drowning in work.
00:22:13.740 --> 00:22:19.890
They don't have the time or the energy to work with their teams and then work on themselves to do that good self awareness development.
00:22:20.380 --> 00:22:22.750
And this opportunity that seemed like.
00:22:23.769 --> 00:22:26.579
The golden goose is now its own prison because
00:22:27.089 --> 00:22:28.190
it's golden handcuffs instead.
00:22:28.190 --> 00:22:28.420
Right?
00:22:28.420 --> 00:22:29.019
Yeah,
00:22:29.200 --> 00:22:29.819
exactly.
00:22:30.289 --> 00:22:30.700
Yeah.
00:22:31.150 --> 00:22:36.279
Well I think we could probably talk all day, but I think technically we're out of time.
00:22:36.500 --> 00:22:38.539
So hopefully the technology gods cooperate this time.
00:22:38.539 --> 00:22:44.759
And our next conversation can be more social than, uh, having to get it recorded, but thank you so much for being on the show.
00:22:44.759 --> 00:22:46.549
I have two final questions for you.
00:22:46.880 --> 00:22:50.849
Question number one, Who is leading the charge on taking back Monday?
00:22:50.859 --> 00:22:52.220
Who else should we be talking to?
00:22:52.829 --> 00:22:54.009
So I have a good friend.
00:22:54.019 --> 00:22:55.720
His name is Alex Resnick.
00:22:55.730 --> 00:23:06.618
He owns a company in Miami, Florida called Evolve Leadership, and I love what he's doing because he is injecting authenticity and realness back into the workplace.
00:23:07.049 --> 00:23:09.880
He talks about upgrading communication.
00:23:09.880 --> 00:23:11.339
He talks about vulnerability.
00:23:11.349 --> 00:23:17.980
He talks about self awareness, really bringing the EQ back into the office.
00:23:20.140 --> 00:23:22.660
And I think he's somebody he, he posts regularly on social.
00:23:22.660 --> 00:23:25.539
You should follow him on TikTok and Instagram and LinkedIn.
00:23:26.559 --> 00:23:31.140
He's just a cool guy who knows what he's talking about and just has this warm energy about him.
00:23:31.190 --> 00:23:31.819
And I think.
00:23:32.450 --> 00:23:39.180
If more leaders took his advice in stride and engaged with him, this would be a much better world.
00:23:39.930 --> 00:23:40.420
I love it.
00:23:40.430 --> 00:23:47.660
So lastly, if everyone is loving this as much as I am, they want to connect with you, they want more of you, where can they find you online?
00:23:48.430 --> 00:23:57.509
Best way to find me is to hop over to LinkedIn, search Kolby Goodman, K O L B Y Goodman connect with me, say hi, let you let me know that you found me here.
00:23:58.240 --> 00:24:02.950
Would be happy to engage with you if you're having trouble finding a job or finding the right person for the job.
00:24:03.720 --> 00:24:07.430
I'm an expert on both sides of the interview table and would love to see how I can help.
00:24:08.119 --> 00:24:08.430
Awesome.
00:24:08.430 --> 00:24:09.420
Well, thank you so much.
00:24:09.440 --> 00:24:11.180
And we hope that you all take back Monday.
00:00:00.050 --> 00:00:00.629
Hey, everyone.
00:00:00.629 --> 00:00:02.209
Welcome back to taking back Monday.
00:00:02.209 --> 00:00:02.939
I am so excited.
00:00:02.948 --> 00:00:09.038
You decided to join us and say goodbye to the Sunday scaries and I'm excited to introduce you to my friend Kolby Goodman.
00:00:09.038 --> 00:00:09.619
Welcome Kolby.
00:00:10.304 --> 00:00:12.243
Thanks for having me again.
00:00:12.554 --> 00:00:14.653
I mean, we do have to shut up the elephant in room.
00:00:14.653 --> 00:00:16.173
This is, this is take two.
00:00:16.173 --> 00:00:22.853
We recorded this episode, what, like a couple of months ago and I went to do the, the editing and I discovered that the file is corrupted.
00:00:22.905 --> 00:00:24.283
So, you know, here we are again.
00:00:25.463 --> 00:00:30.153
I think the, I think the technology gods just wanted us to chat again and I'm not going to resist the gods.
00:00:30.193 --> 00:00:30.875
That's for sure.
00:00:31.013 --> 00:00:31.224
Yeah.
00:00:31.224 --> 00:00:32.685
We don't, we're mere mortals.
00:00:32.694 --> 00:00:33.573
We don't fight with the gods.
00:00:33.575 --> 00:00:40.643
So I guess the question on everyone's mind, Kolby, since you've done this before, have you taken back Monday?
00:00:41.518 --> 00:00:42.598
I think I have.
00:00:42.829 --> 00:00:43.048
Yeah.
00:00:43.048 --> 00:00:47.198
I, you know, on the good one is I have, and on the not so good monies, it's still okay.
00:00:48.478 --> 00:00:52.859
You know, I started my business at this point over 10 years ago.
00:00:53.268 --> 00:01:04.259
I'm helping individuals take back their own careers and helping leaders develop teams that they're excited to lead.
00:01:04.519 --> 00:01:11.109
Uh, Our pleasures to work with and that they trust to do the work.
00:01:11.120 --> 00:01:20.918
And I think most importantly, solve the important problems so that everybody lives a happier, more joyous life at work and everywhere else.
00:01:21.899 --> 00:01:27.338
So you mentioned a keyword in there that I want to, I want to dig into the word trust, right?
00:01:27.349 --> 00:01:36.465
How many millions, if not billions of dollars have been spent on trying to Strategize on how to build trust, and I maybe have a little bit of a hot take.
00:01:36.465 --> 00:01:37.653
I would love your feedback on.
00:01:38.094 --> 00:01:40.834
I actually don't think that trust is something you can build.
00:01:40.995 --> 00:01:45.655
I don't think it's a process that you can, like, gamify or systematize.
00:01:45.694 --> 00:01:52.394
In my view, trust is merely a byproduct of having really good communication with your team, holding everyone accountable.
00:01:53.040 --> 00:01:58.448
Understanding how to motivate them and help them through perseverance and like set those intentions of why are we here?
00:01:58.448 --> 00:01:59.040
What are we doing?
00:01:59.040 --> 00:02:00.750
What is the reason that we want this outcome?
00:02:00.778 --> 00:02:02.338
So I don't believe you can build trust.
00:02:02.448 --> 00:02:03.799
I think trust is just an outcome.
00:02:05.328 --> 00:02:05.920
Interesting.
00:02:05.939 --> 00:02:06.409
Interesting.
00:02:06.480 --> 00:02:09.829
I, I can see that.
00:02:10.098 --> 00:02:20.019
And I think it's, I think with that, what I train my clients to do both on the candidate side and on the leadership side is what's your gut really saying to you?
00:02:21.000 --> 00:02:30.838
Because I think when we get burned by people's situations is because We're trying to justify the action.
00:02:31.098 --> 00:02:32.408
Oh, I need to give them the bed for the doubt.
00:02:32.509 --> 00:02:34.598
Oh, like they're just having a bad day.
00:02:34.598 --> 00:02:37.639
Like, oh, like all these things that we tell ourselves because we don't want to be mean.
00:02:38.449 --> 00:02:39.300
I don't want to be rude.
00:02:39.729 --> 00:02:45.239
And it's, it's a lot easier to live in a world where everybody's trustworthy and likable.
00:02:47.618 --> 00:02:49.199
And I think we have to get burned by that.
00:02:49.759 --> 00:02:52.349
Probably one too many times that we'd like, but we have to get burned by it.
00:02:52.379 --> 00:02:55.229
And I think trusting your gut.
00:02:55.229 --> 00:03:00.618
And that's kind of what I really tell my leadership clients is like, what does your gut say after that conversation?
00:03:01.090 --> 00:03:02.969
Like, no thinking about it.
00:03:02.969 --> 00:03:03.689
Let's just go with it.
00:03:03.729 --> 00:03:08.370
And then from there, we can talk about the logic and the, you know, and the tangibles and all that.
00:03:08.379 --> 00:03:09.479
But what is your gut saying?
00:03:10.270 --> 00:03:13.908
And some people need their gut in tune, tuned up a bit.
00:03:13.939 --> 00:03:17.459
Some people need to just drown out everything else and tune in just to their gut.
00:03:18.688 --> 00:03:27.269
But it's a, I think that is the part of it that is, can be built is that self, you gotta have self trust first before you can understand and trust anybody else.
00:03:28.283 --> 00:03:30.634
I think that's a really important distinction.
00:03:30.644 --> 00:03:32.903
I started my career in a startup.
00:03:32.903 --> 00:03:35.324
So it was just me and a couple of other people.
00:03:35.354 --> 00:03:38.993
And then when I started working with larger clients.
00:03:39.574 --> 00:03:55.484
Uh, where I was coming in and I was consulting with their team and these were these huge consulting or huge companies that I was working with and I found out really quickly that, like, just because I had the best intentions and I wanted the best outcome for the team in the project that not everybody had that.
00:03:55.485 --> 00:03:56.834
I call it like the antibodies.
00:03:57.019 --> 00:03:57.278
Right.
00:03:57.319 --> 00:03:58.359
I recently had a situation.
00:03:58.359 --> 00:04:04.408
I got attacked by an antibody inside of a corporate where I wanted to come in and drive a transformation, make a change, do something.
00:04:04.759 --> 00:04:08.310
And I quickly discovered that I had accidentally stepped into someone's territory.
00:04:08.419 --> 00:04:17.189
And we had a little bit of like a situation because they didn't want me to be successful because they wanted their own thing to be successful.
00:04:17.189 --> 00:04:23.309
So it is definitely like trusting your gut and having the right team in place with the right goals and the right outcomes.
00:04:24.045 --> 00:04:24.055
I
00:04:26.384 --> 00:04:30.305
mean, it's it's really good territorial stuff, right?
00:04:30.305 --> 00:04:43.644
It's like, and that's the thing about management that I don't think enough leaders are ready to take on is you don't just get to manage and lead the professional.
00:04:44.334 --> 00:04:46.745
You have to understand holistically the person.
00:04:47.415 --> 00:04:48.754
Yeah, absolutely.
00:04:49.175 --> 00:04:51.514
You know, it's, it's, it's my joke that.
00:04:52.245 --> 00:05:01.954
If all of our job titles were pinpoint accurate to what we did all day, we would all be professional email responders and meeting attendees.
00:05:02.514 --> 00:05:02.684
And
00:05:02.684 --> 00:05:05.713
when you're a manager, you're an amateur therapist,
00:05:07.454 --> 00:05:07.954
right?
00:05:08.475 --> 00:05:14.634
And so it's your job to, I think, do get curious with other people.
00:05:15.115 --> 00:05:16.324
And I think, yes, like.
00:05:17.745 --> 00:05:27.384
Expect good intentions, but understand true motivation and do that through getting curious and asking good questions.
00:05:27.725 --> 00:05:35.504
And it takes, that takes a heck of a lot longer and more energy than dictation or delegation or punishment.
00:05:36.355 --> 00:05:41.975
But if you can invest that in the short term, your long term as a leader will be more fruitful.
00:05:41.985 --> 00:05:43.225
It will be more enjoyable.
00:05:43.235 --> 00:05:53.079
It will be Honestly, easier because at that point, you are, you're, you're leading, but you're leading leaders how to lead themselves.
00:05:54.350 --> 00:05:57.649
And you may have to rewind the tape back 30 seconds to hear that again.
00:05:57.689 --> 00:05:59.360
Because that was a lot of the same word really quickly.
00:06:00.069 --> 00:06:03.319
But then also, you are there to help people get out of their own way as well.
00:06:03.970 --> 00:06:04.189
I think
00:06:04.189 --> 00:06:12.428
that's what a lot of leadership is just to get people to kind of wake up a little bit, take ownership and get excited about the problems they want to solve.
00:06:13.178 --> 00:06:14.658
And the people they want to sell them with,
00:06:16.129 --> 00:06:22.709
I think I'm going to add another professional job title to professional email responder and professional meeting attendee.
00:06:23.069 --> 00:06:26.290
I think it's also like, as a leader, I feel like I'm a professional contortionist.
00:06:26.408 --> 00:06:30.699
Like, I feel like I have to change my leadership style, depending on who I'm working with.
00:06:30.720 --> 00:06:33.399
So the 1 person that I'm coaching, I might say.
00:06:33.944 --> 00:06:35.064
I can be very direct with them.
00:06:35.064 --> 00:06:37.355
We can have a direct face to face conversation, right?
00:06:37.355 --> 00:06:39.824
They need that direct information.
00:06:39.834 --> 00:06:43.543
I can have a frank conversation with them and they won't get upset or be offended.
00:06:43.543 --> 00:06:44.555
It's just business, right?
00:06:44.954 --> 00:06:49.553
Then I have another person who they're very empathetic and.
00:06:49.918 --> 00:06:50.579
Very good.
00:06:50.699 --> 00:06:59.369
Very good at what they do, but the way you approach motivation, motivating that person and communicating with that person and holding them accountable with necessary is entirely different.
00:06:59.379 --> 00:07:05.288
I have to be a different person depending on who I'm in the room with and I have to do it well and authentically me.
00:07:07.468 --> 00:07:08.168
I mean, it's hard, right?
00:07:08.168 --> 00:07:11.889
Because you're where you, yes, you have to wear these masks, right?
00:07:12.028 --> 00:07:13.749
Yes, masks is the right word.
00:07:14.879 --> 00:07:21.298
And I think it's, I think it's part of a good leader's job to, I think, meet.
00:07:21.853 --> 00:07:35.894
Your team more than halfway, maybe 90 percent of the way to where they are and help them understand the masks that they're wearing and then make it so that you can bring space to make sure everybody meets you.
00:07:37.074 --> 00:07:37.384
Right?
00:07:37.384 --> 00:07:42.733
Because those masks, those personas, those avatars that you have to put on.
00:07:43.550 --> 00:07:47.490
All the time at a moment's notice, maybe multiple times in the same meeting.
00:07:48.240 --> 00:07:50.980
Yeah, that's that's mentally and physically exhausting.
00:07:51.428 --> 00:07:55.569
And so it's no wonder that, you know, leaders feel disconnected.
00:07:55.600 --> 00:07:56.800
They feel resentful.
00:07:57.129 --> 00:07:58.598
They feel like they're babysitting.
00:07:59.418 --> 00:08:07.810
And so, you know, I think there needs to be more open discussion and to bring everybody to the table to say, okay, how.
00:08:08.649 --> 00:08:10.288
What's the best way to work with me?
00:08:12.319 --> 00:08:13.610
I was just trying to look up here.
00:08:14.360 --> 00:08:24.418
And I'll send this over to you after this to put in the show notes because I cannot recall it verbatim right now, but also a podcast a few weeks ago with the woman who was the CEO of Stripe, the payment company.
00:08:24.629 --> 00:08:25.079
Oh, cool.
00:08:25.100 --> 00:08:28.600
She has this thing called a work with me document.
00:08:29.259 --> 00:08:34.100
And I was like, Oh, this is, she said it and it was so obvious and it was so apparent.
00:08:34.828 --> 00:08:35.490
And it's so good.
00:08:35.509 --> 00:08:41.408
You ever have that moment where it's like, when you have like, oh, duh, like, why didn't I know it's so obvious that you
00:08:41.408 --> 00:08:43.149
can't imagine that you didn't think of it first.
00:08:43.158 --> 00:08:44.349
That's when you know, it's good.
00:08:44.349 --> 00:08:45.889
That's when you know, it's the right thing.
00:08:46.289 --> 00:08:46.740
Yes.
00:08:46.778 --> 00:08:47.089
Yes.
00:08:47.109 --> 00:08:48.129
You took the words right out of my mouth.
00:08:48.309 --> 00:08:48.600
Yes.
00:08:48.639 --> 00:08:49.448
That's when you know, it's good.
00:08:49.448 --> 00:08:50.970
And she's just like, this is how I work.
00:08:50.980 --> 00:08:53.269
This is how I like my emails to be written to me.
00:08:53.269 --> 00:08:53.850
This is all this.
00:08:53.899 --> 00:08:56.120
And I, it just brings awareness.
00:08:56.708 --> 00:09:05.139
And I think even, and she said, like, even if people don't abide by this to the letter of the law, it's okay because they're trying their best to meet where I'm at.
00:09:05.198 --> 00:09:09.419
And I also require them to write their own document so I can meet them where they are.
00:09:10.230 --> 00:09:11.629
I love that.
00:09:11.658 --> 00:09:12.870
That is so smart.
00:09:13.769 --> 00:09:19.970
It just makes, you know, it is a, it's a user manual for yourself and for your, your, your team.
00:09:20.509 --> 00:09:25.500
Because I think we, you know, those first, you know, I think, you know, 90 days is.
00:09:26.244 --> 00:09:30.125
Kind of this nice round number, but we suss it out every time, right?
00:09:30.125 --> 00:09:31.835
We just, we, we, we walk on eggshells.
00:09:31.865 --> 00:09:32.784
We don't want to screw up.
00:09:32.784 --> 00:09:38.274
We don't upset anybody, especially as a new employee, but definitely as the leader who brought stuff, brought that person in
00:09:38.734 --> 00:09:38.913
and
00:09:39.014 --> 00:09:42.714
so why not get all of that out in the open, right?
00:09:42.714 --> 00:09:43.245
Like short
00:09:43.264 --> 00:09:44.264
circuit, it shortcut.
00:09:44.264 --> 00:09:46.684
Let's skip to the, let's skip to the last chapter here.
00:09:46.725 --> 00:09:47.725
Like that's smart.
00:09:48.234 --> 00:09:53.134
We don't have time and we don't have the patience to guess and check how to work with each other.
00:09:53.134 --> 00:09:54.995
Let's just be open and honest.
00:09:55.490 --> 00:10:06.340
And I think that can be a real key to avoiding a lot of headache and heartache when it comes to the strife that we tend to experience more than we'd like to admit at work.
00:10:06.419 --> 00:10:07.229
Yeah.
00:10:07.708 --> 00:10:12.879
And to that point though, that requires so much self awareness in order to do that.
00:10:12.879 --> 00:10:22.899
Like I have a vivid memory of putting together a resume for a job in college and I wrote things like what they wanted, which was detail oriented and yada, yada.
00:10:22.938 --> 00:10:24.519
I am not a detail oriented person.
00:10:24.519 --> 00:10:25.948
I'm a big picture thinker.
00:10:26.259 --> 00:10:30.289
Like I am not the person who's going to come in and do a ton of process.
00:10:30.350 --> 00:10:34.219
I'm going to maybe design the process, but I'm not going to be one who can execute it very well.
00:10:34.610 --> 00:10:36.269
And the teams that I've worked best with.
00:10:36.705 --> 00:10:40.745
Just recognize that my like superpower is not to be in the weeds.
00:10:40.794 --> 00:10:43.134
It's to see the entire map, right?
00:10:43.544 --> 00:10:51.364
But I got the job and I hated that job and they didn't really like me either because I wasn't who they were really looking for.
00:10:51.565 --> 00:10:54.674
I wasn't self aware enough to realize, Hey, you're not detail oriented.
00:10:54.684 --> 00:10:56.215
You're not process motivated.
00:10:56.985 --> 00:10:58.315
You're not going to thrive here.
00:10:58.335 --> 00:10:59.495
And none of us were happy.
00:11:00.674 --> 00:11:03.985
And I think that brings such a good point when it comes to hiring correctly.
00:11:04.134 --> 00:11:05.684
And this is my, this is my expertise.
00:11:05.693 --> 00:11:06.384
This is my.
00:11:07.995 --> 00:11:10.193
This is where I get to nerd out is what
00:11:10.195 --> 00:11:11.333
gets you up for Monday morning.
00:11:11.594 --> 00:11:12.844
Yes, absolutely.
00:11:12.864 --> 00:11:13.485
Is that it?
00:11:14.424 --> 00:11:21.985
We tend to evaluate candidates based on what they are or what they say they are.
00:11:22.904 --> 00:11:23.875
Detail oriented.
00:11:23.914 --> 00:11:24.955
I'm a good team player.
00:11:24.955 --> 00:11:25.644
All these things.
00:11:26.044 --> 00:11:31.995
And yes, like we asked quite some of the time when you, when your detail orientation helped you avert disaster, all this stuff.
00:11:32.063 --> 00:11:32.304
Right.
00:11:32.705 --> 00:11:32.934
Right.
00:11:32.965 --> 00:11:42.674
But what we're not doing and what we're hoping a candidate is going to magically guess is really how, how can you help us solve our problems?
00:11:44.019 --> 00:11:45.198
That's why you're hiring somebody.
00:11:45.198 --> 00:11:52.610
That's why you're taking the time and the energy and the money to bring another adult in the room, take the work on.
00:11:53.360 --> 00:11:56.269
So again, let's short circuit it.
00:11:56.298 --> 00:12:06.955
Why are we talking about how a time when somebody dealt with an upset customer, when you can ultimately say, Hey, Right now, we have a problem with customer service.
00:12:07.193 --> 00:12:12.495
Our customers feel like we're short with them, that we don't get back to them in time, and that we're not giving them correct answers.
00:12:12.835 --> 00:12:14.033
How could you help?
00:12:14.134 --> 00:12:15.414
How could you help us solve that problem?
00:12:15.823 --> 00:12:17.495
Have you solved that problem before in the past?
00:12:18.235 --> 00:12:18.494
Have you
00:12:18.654 --> 00:12:20.313
seen someone successfully solve that problem?
00:12:20.313 --> 00:12:25.034
Have you seen someone absolutely fail at solving that problem so we can learn from what they did wrong?
00:12:26.294 --> 00:12:31.350
But we tend to go in these interviews And dance around the real issue.
00:12:31.389 --> 00:12:37.889
Because what I have found is that managers understandably don't want to spoon feed somebody the right answers,
00:12:38.169 --> 00:12:38.429
right?
00:12:38.620 --> 00:12:38.879
They don't
00:12:38.879 --> 00:12:40.909
want to be parroted back what they want to hear.
00:12:41.328 --> 00:12:48.549
But as you've, as you and I found it too, in my own career, I can pair it, what you want me to say, but it doesn't mean I can do what you want me to do.
00:12:49.169 --> 00:12:52.840
I can wear the mask you want me to wear for a short amount of time.
00:12:52.948 --> 00:12:54.909
And then you're going to find out that's not who I really am.
00:12:55.438 --> 00:13:00.198
And that's what I tell my candidate clients is like, I'm going to I, you can fake it.
00:13:00.539 --> 00:13:01.139
Absolutely.
00:13:01.149 --> 00:13:02.639
You can fake it for a couple of hours.
00:13:02.840 --> 00:13:03.159
Yeah.
00:13:03.240 --> 00:13:07.690
Can and what, and do you want to fake it for 40 plus hours a week for the indefinite future?
00:13:08.370 --> 00:13:08.840
Probably not.
00:13:09.339 --> 00:13:19.590
And I would argue that, yeah, you want the job maybe, but you're going to be miserable if it's not who you authentically are, what you authentically enjoy, what you're good at.
00:13:20.019 --> 00:13:30.090
You are not going to enjoy that career and we're talking about more than just like a basic skill set, like fundamentally your natural approach to work and to life, right?
00:13:30.308 --> 00:13:34.620
I can fake being detail oriented, but that's not a skill you can really teach.
00:13:34.788 --> 00:13:36.349
Some people just are that.
00:13:37.419 --> 00:13:43.639
Well, and as a leader, you, you should be having these honest conversations up front.
00:13:44.804 --> 00:13:52.573
And that's what I teach my management and leadership clients is like, how do you drop the facade of the performance of the interview on both sides of it?
00:13:52.884 --> 00:13:53.153
Yeah.
00:13:53.195 --> 00:13:53.583
Right.
00:13:54.073 --> 00:13:57.225
And I think, you know, as the manager, we try to ask a question.
00:13:57.274 --> 00:13:58.193
We try to ask good questions.
00:13:58.193 --> 00:14:00.514
We try to sell the opportunity, try to sell the company.
00:14:01.433 --> 00:14:08.344
But if you can be honest about where are, where are the holes, where are the chinks in the armor?
00:14:09.958 --> 00:14:25.529
I think that gives such a more authentic connection in the interview, because what you're, what you need to make clear to the candidate is you're not looking to hire the most, anything, most experienced, more educated, whatever, looking to hire, right?
00:14:25.958 --> 00:14:28.479
And if this just isn't a right fit, that's okay.
00:14:29.340 --> 00:14:30.519
Nothing wrong to
00:14:30.519 --> 00:14:30.730
you.
00:14:30.740 --> 00:14:33.820
Like, nothing is wrong with you because this wasn't the right fit.
00:14:34.323 --> 00:14:40.605
Or the right time or the right team, like, just because you didn't get the job doesn't mean it wasn't perfect.
00:14:40.625 --> 00:14:42.923
And just because you're didn't find the right candidate.
00:14:42.923 --> 00:14:44.434
The 1st time doesn't mean you can't try again.
00:14:45.384 --> 00:14:57.985
Well, and I think too, and I've, I've seen this happen multiple times with my clients when I've helped them hire new people is like, you know, when we tell somebody, Hey, this is, I don't think this is a good fit for either of us.
00:14:58.014 --> 00:15:00.865
And this is why here's the feedback we want to give you.
00:15:00.865 --> 00:15:02.105
This is what we're expecting.
00:15:02.788 --> 00:15:04.948
And this isn't going to be a good relationship.
00:15:05.298 --> 00:15:06.958
And they, they say, thank you.
00:15:07.009 --> 00:15:08.169
And they appreciate it.
00:15:08.539 --> 00:15:10.399
And they say, well, I'd like to stay in touch.
00:15:10.764 --> 00:15:17.294
And I've had multiple clients say, you know, get post another job and have that same person apply again for a different role.
00:15:17.333 --> 00:15:18.985
And it'd be a great fit.
00:15:19.354 --> 00:15:23.413
And that person is still engaged with the process because we treated them with respect.
00:15:23.484 --> 00:15:26.344
And they also knew this wasn't a performance.
00:15:26.403 --> 00:15:27.453
We want you to be real.
00:15:27.464 --> 00:15:28.423
We want you to be authentic.
00:15:28.464 --> 00:15:29.653
And we want to see if it's a good fit.
00:15:30.924 --> 00:15:34.274
You know, one of the things I've seen going around.
00:15:35.100 --> 00:15:44.340
Like TikTok, the internet, social media, whatever, whatever platform is your platform of choice is this idea that like slamming companies because they didn't hire me.
00:15:44.340 --> 00:15:46.720
They want this and they want that and they can't have everything they want.
00:15:46.720 --> 00:15:47.899
And they didn't want me.
00:15:47.899 --> 00:15:49.889
So obviously they don't know what they're doing.
00:15:50.299 --> 00:15:52.600
Like, there probably is some of that, right?
00:15:52.600 --> 00:16:04.049
There is some of, you know, the, the AI is reading the resume and you didn't optimize it right for their AI or whatever, but, you know, I think right fit matters so much more than right now.
00:16:05.049 --> 00:16:08.289
And that's it's hard.
00:16:08.330 --> 00:16:15.059
That is something I, I totally agree with, but I also understand companies perspective is like, we, we need a body,
00:16:15.590 --> 00:16:15.799
right?
00:16:15.818 --> 00:16:18.110
Sometimes you just need a body and that's when you need a body.
00:16:20.259 --> 00:16:25.090
I think it's about, but I think what we default there too, is like, we need to understand what this person knows.
00:16:26.090 --> 00:16:27.288
I listened to another pod.
00:16:28.038 --> 00:16:28.938
I'm on a podcast.
00:16:28.938 --> 00:16:29.840
I listen to a podcast.
00:16:30.110 --> 00:16:31.399
I'm a walking podcast, I guess.
00:16:32.269 --> 00:16:32.364
I love it.
00:16:32.929 --> 00:16:35.778
.
00:16:32.929 --> 00:16:38.090
Kolby Goodman: I listened to prominent VC in Silicon Valley.
00:16:38.090 --> 00:16:43.188
Started this company called Wealthfront, which does like automatic online investing for you.
00:16:43.610 --> 00:16:43.820
Cool.
00:16:43.850 --> 00:16:46.458
And he said I learned a long time ago.
00:16:46.458 --> 00:16:47.360
I need to stop hiring.
00:16:47.365 --> 00:16:49.958
Know-it-alls, and start learning, uh, testing it.
00:16:49.958 --> 00:16:51.370
Start hiring, learn it alls.
00:16:51.659 --> 00:16:52.070
Yeah.
00:16:52.509 --> 00:16:53.208
And I loved that.
00:16:53.219 --> 00:16:56.610
I was like, well, and it resonated with me because this is what I've been teaching for a decade.
00:16:56.629 --> 00:17:02.429
And it's like, in all reality, as a leader, you do not care what somebody did yesterday.
00:17:02.729 --> 00:17:04.929
You are most concerned with how somebody thinks today.
00:17:05.480 --> 00:17:05.778
And so
00:17:05.778 --> 00:17:07.969
if all of your questions, all of your approach.
00:17:08.500 --> 00:17:22.089
If all your communication with the candidate is about doing of the work versus understanding what's happening between their ears, their logic is, what their motivations are, what is their internal algorithm, then all you're doing is hiring a job doer.
00:17:22.199 --> 00:17:30.559
You're not hiring a problem solver and that job doer that order taker is going to be a liability because you're just, there's going to be a bottleneck there.
00:17:30.730 --> 00:17:37.970
They're going to need a lot of handholding, and they're going to become a plight on your Mondays, Tuesdays, Wednesdays, Thursdays.
00:17:38.263 --> 00:17:41.065
And and honestly, maybe Saturday and 24
00:17:41.085 --> 00:17:41.513
sevens.
00:17:41.864 --> 00:17:41.903
Yeah.
00:17:42.694 --> 00:17:44.085
So let's flip that.
00:17:44.194 --> 00:17:46.734
Let's move away from hiring and move to team dynamics.
00:17:46.734 --> 00:17:55.494
Like, if I'm a leader and, you know, someone was hired, they're not right fit or they were right fit, but not anymore.
00:17:55.564 --> 00:18:01.255
They're not the right fit anymore for where we've gone or where we've, we've like, where we're going.
00:18:02.345 --> 00:18:03.505
Am I, if I'm a leader, yeah.
00:18:04.230 --> 00:18:11.680
Is it my responsibility to push them, grow them, get them to be the right fit or what do I do next?
00:18:12.699 --> 00:18:13.579
It's a really good question.
00:18:14.480 --> 00:18:18.299
It's, I think you need to give them a chance, right?
00:18:18.318 --> 00:18:19.710
Because they cannot read your mind.
00:18:20.608 --> 00:18:22.959
Uh, that's not fair to, to assume that.
00:18:24.019 --> 00:18:30.059
And so as long as you are clearly communicating what you need them to do, but also again, what are the new problems you want them to solve?
00:18:30.750 --> 00:18:34.559
Because I think, especially nowadays where.
00:18:35.180 --> 00:18:38.559
Nobody's getting a gold watch after being at the same company for 30 years.
00:18:38.599 --> 00:18:39.730
There's no more pensions.
00:18:40.579 --> 00:18:45.750
We have to really be more purposeful with our careers.
00:18:46.369 --> 00:18:50.380
Nobody wants to, nobody sees the value of being a cog in the machine anymore.
00:18:51.720 --> 00:18:54.930
And so you have to help them understand this is how we need you to think.
00:18:54.940 --> 00:18:58.108
This is the challenges we want you to take on and take ownership of those things.
00:18:59.128 --> 00:19:04.179
And only, and then, and only then after you've clearly stated that, give them the tools, the training and the chance.
00:19:05.375 --> 00:19:14.005
If they're still not kind of getting getting to a point where they need to perform or they need to impact, then it it's a I think it's it is welcome to let them go.
00:19:15.095 --> 00:19:15.305
Right?
00:19:15.375 --> 00:19:22.664
And make it so that again, it is framed as this is no longer a good fit and do anything bad or wrong.
00:19:23.134 --> 00:19:24.654
This is what we feel like your skills are.
00:19:24.713 --> 00:19:25.424
These are the skills.
00:19:25.473 --> 00:19:27.724
These are the approaches we need in this in this role now.
00:19:27.785 --> 00:19:31.305
And so we'd like to amicably call it a day.
00:19:32.910 --> 00:19:33.880
Yeah, that's so hard.
00:19:33.890 --> 00:19:43.549
Like, it is hard because my, you know, tender, empathetic heart wants to be like, well, you know, they're, they're such a great add to the team culture.
00:19:43.569 --> 00:19:46.309
And, you know, we just like them and we love them.
00:19:46.309 --> 00:19:51.009
And like, you know, the personality hire, if you will, like, that's hard.
00:19:52.058 --> 00:19:52.519
Absolutely.
00:19:52.589 --> 00:19:53.969
It's not easy to let anybody go.
00:19:54.339 --> 00:19:54.769
Right.
00:19:54.799 --> 00:20:12.329
But I think it's, I think as long as you know, as a leader, you've done everything that you can to give them a chance and that doesn't mean, like you said, give them a chance in a way for them and succeed because there is also a place where I know a lot of managers who are enabling bad employees.
00:20:13.589 --> 00:20:16.400
Who give excuses who skirt work who
00:20:16.519 --> 00:20:18.640
well, once upon a time, they were my top seller.
00:20:18.640 --> 00:20:22.680
I know they're not anymore, but, you know, 5 years ago, they were the top seller.
00:20:23.910 --> 00:20:24.099
Right.
00:20:24.099 --> 00:20:25.750
And so understanding that, Hey, what's going on?
00:20:25.990 --> 00:20:38.299
Uh, you know, your productivity is coming off, like, help me understand and kind of bringing out that couch and, and putting on that therapist hat and, and getting real with your, your employees.
00:20:40.890 --> 00:20:41.279
Cause.
00:20:42.984 --> 00:20:55.294
You know, the book difficult conversations is a, I think it's a, it's a must read for every manager, because if you're looking to lead, and if you're looking to get people to produce, then you're going to have to ruffle some feathers.
00:20:55.305 --> 00:20:57.765
You're going to have to have real conversations.
00:20:58.124 --> 00:20:58.433
Yeah.
00:20:58.505 --> 00:20:59.045
I don't know of a
00:20:59.065 --> 00:21:06.164
single leader who has ever led a team of any kind and not had to have difficult conversations on the regular.
00:21:06.529 --> 00:21:06.970
Sure.
00:21:07.450 --> 00:21:14.099
And if you're not good at that, if you're not willing to have them, then you're causing yourself so much more pain and anguish.
00:21:14.250 --> 00:21:26.569
And if you're out there and you found yourself in a role where you're leading, and maybe you were leading not because only you were great at the people aspect, but you were good at the technical aspect, you could do the thing.
00:21:27.000 --> 00:21:27.319
You could
00:21:27.319 --> 00:21:27.789
sell.
00:21:27.859 --> 00:21:28.460
You could.
00:21:29.049 --> 00:21:31.400
Account you could administrate
00:21:31.740 --> 00:21:37.328
so common to, I feel like people get promoted because they were the top performer, not because they were the top leader.
00:21:38.849 --> 00:21:46.190
Well, and this happens so much in 21 and 22 during the great resignation, everybody was switching all the time.
00:21:46.190 --> 00:21:48.559
And so it just was, it was literally a next step situation.
00:21:49.069 --> 00:21:52.450
And so whether or not that person was ready to lead.
00:21:52.809 --> 00:22:04.819
They were tasked with leading and that leader and that opportunity came with obviously a raise and the title bump and a sweetener to the, to the pie, but then they were left hanging because they didn't get any training, any support.
00:22:05.839 --> 00:22:09.078
They maybe not have been even the right person to take on the role.
00:22:09.180 --> 00:22:11.240
And now they're fine.
00:22:11.250 --> 00:22:13.410
They're, they're drowning in work.
00:22:13.740 --> 00:22:19.890
They don't have the time or the energy to work with their teams and then work on themselves to do that good self awareness development.
00:22:20.380 --> 00:22:22.750
And this opportunity that seemed like.
00:22:23.769 --> 00:22:26.579
The golden goose is now its own prison because
00:22:27.089 --> 00:22:28.190
it's golden handcuffs instead.
00:22:28.190 --> 00:22:28.420
Right?
00:22:28.420 --> 00:22:29.019
Yeah,
00:22:29.200 --> 00:22:29.819
exactly.
00:22:30.289 --> 00:22:30.700
Yeah.
00:22:31.150 --> 00:22:36.279
Well I think we could probably talk all day, but I think technically we're out of time.
00:22:36.500 --> 00:22:38.539
So hopefully the technology gods cooperate this time.
00:22:38.539 --> 00:22:44.759
And our next conversation can be more social than, uh, having to get it recorded, but thank you so much for being on the show.
00:22:44.759 --> 00:22:46.549
I have two final questions for you.
00:22:46.880 --> 00:22:50.849
Question number one, Who is leading the charge on taking back Monday?
00:22:50.859 --> 00:22:52.220
Who else should we be talking to?
00:22:52.829 --> 00:22:54.009
So I have a good friend.
00:22:54.019 --> 00:22:55.720
His name is Alex Resnick.
00:22:55.730 --> 00:23:06.618
He owns a company in Miami, Florida called Evolve Leadership, and I love what he's doing because he is injecting authenticity and realness back into the workplace.
00:23:07.049 --> 00:23:09.880
He talks about upgrading communication.
00:23:09.880 --> 00:23:11.339
He talks about vulnerability.
00:23:11.349 --> 00:23:17.980
He talks about self awareness, really bringing the EQ back into the office.
00:23:20.140 --> 00:23:22.660
And I think he's somebody he, he posts regularly on social.
00:23:22.660 --> 00:23:25.539
You should follow him on TikTok and Instagram and LinkedIn.
00:23:26.559 --> 00:23:31.140
He's just a cool guy who knows what he's talking about and just has this warm energy about him.
00:23:31.190 --> 00:23:31.819
And I think.
00:23:32.450 --> 00:23:39.180
If more leaders took his advice in stride and engaged with him, this would be a much better world.
00:23:39.930 --> 00:23:40.420
I love it.
00:23:40.430 --> 00:23:47.660
So lastly, if everyone is loving this as much as I am, they want to connect with you, they want more of you, where can they find you online?
00:23:48.430 --> 00:23:57.509
Best way to find me is to hop over to LinkedIn, search Kolby Goodman, K O L B Y Goodman connect with me, say hi, let you let me know that you found me here.
00:23:58.240 --> 00:24:02.950
Would be happy to engage with you if you're having trouble finding a job or finding the right person for the job.
00:24:03.720 --> 00:24:07.430
I'm an expert on both sides of the interview table and would love to see how I can help.
00:24:08.119 --> 00:24:08.430
Awesome.
00:24:08.430 --> 00:24:09.420
Well, thank you so much.
00:24:09.440 --> 00:24:11.180
And we hope that you all take back Monday.
