Jason M. Craig (01:17.162)
All right, friends, listeners, subscribers to fraternist, welcome to the Sword and Spade podcast. I'm particularly excited today because I've got a guest on here who is part of a brotherhood that understands something about brotherhood, is that if there is a a genius, an element of what makes Catholic lay fraternity that makes it what it is.
It's that it's building something and it's actually going somewhere. this is the unexamined r recommendation at the very beginning of the the Pope who who really went to battle with the what the modern world was and has done, Rerum Navarum, Pope Leo the Thirteenth. A lot of people debate all sorts of minute points about it, and they skip over at the end of the encyclical one of his most practical, immediate
Marcellino (01:48.624)
Hmm
Jason M. Craig (02:15.185)
Obvious things you need to do right now is to rekindle the work of the medieval confraternities that we call guilds because local fraternity is not meant to be social. It's actually the intermediary between large powers and the individuals in our care. And throughout the history of Christendom, one of the most important things that men did was to be the intermediary body.
that protects and builds their local community. That's what they do. so Marcelino DiAmbrosio, it was so great to have you last time. I think we kind of even got we were like comparing notes about ideas like rites of passage initiation. do you want to follow up with me on any of that stuff? I mean, did you read the book yet or
Marcellino (02:56.388)
Yeah.
Marcellino (03:02.768)
my gosh, dude, I bought it and I haven't gone through it yet. I'm so sorry, but I am really excited about it.
Jason M. Craig (03:10.177)
All right, that's too vain of now. We're not gonna continue then. That's vain. But yeah, any well we'll we'll need to recircle around. and I want you to tell us if anybody wants to learn more about you, they can listen to the other one or I don't know, Google you and get confused on like who your dad is. But you g you this group called the Sherwood Fellows, is both a marketing company and kind of a writer's group and Substack, if people don't remember from last time.
Marcellino (03:27.524)
Hahaha
Marcellino (03:33.359)
Yeah.
Jason M. Craig (03:39.095)
You have to been punched in the face to be a part of it 'cause that was Marcelino's initiation. was a just an all out brawl. so he's now imposed it on his men.
Marcellino (03:44.688)
Ha, yeah.
So just a brand continuity thing here. Sherwood Fellows is my agency. The writers group and brotherhood is called Christendom Quarterly, which we named when we decided we were going to do a publication and since then have decided not to do that but still have quarterly in our name and the alliteration work.
Jason M. Craig (03:53.195)
Yeah, do it. Do it.
Jason M. Craig (04:01.557)
excuse me.
Jason M. Craig (04:13.015)
Could could we invite you then? I'm just gonna say it right now, without I didn't talk to my team, but they would trust this. We already have a quarterly. We it's called Sword and Spade. I'm gonna save you guys a couple pages in every issue. and and the reason I'm gonna do that and what I want I'm gonna confine you to is some of your your ideas, especially in the article, which you sadly said is not widely read, Sowing the Seeds of Christendom. I it it
Marcellino (04:20.752)
Mm-hmm.
Marcellino (04:26.045)
hell yeah.
Jason M. Craig (04:41.599)
I I think you have a great understanding of what needs to be done. But something I noticed is that, you know, you guys are young. This is not something that's been done. So in a certain way, it's some theoretical stuff. but I'm I'm viewing it just, you know, when I read that, I'm looking retroactively at a lot of the experience of fraternists and recognizing this is what happens when men begin to take, you know, because we're 20 years in. Not as big, you know, digital brand, but we've got places
Marcellino (04:53.52)
Mm-hmm.
Marcellino (05:02.606)
Yes.
Jason M. Craig (05:11.339)
Where they're now you know, I just went to a ranch and there was f one family that had like five generations there. it was just the way the ages worked out and the the the the the fecundity of their family. I don't I know. maybe I'm aging it right. Yeah, I don't know. It was like wait, wait. Yeah, I think it was five, maybe it was four. Anyway, it was a lot. very young fathers maybe.
Marcellino (05:23.578)
Dude, how do you even do that?
Marcellino (05:32.068)
Well.
Jason M. Craig (05:39.842)
But I'm seeing that they're building things. So if you don't mind, I'd like to ask though, tell me some of the key you guys are reacting against commonly held beliefs that I think I'm with you that they are inherited by conservatively minded, traditionally minded men, especially in America, that that in their essence they're actually liberal ideas. but they're preserved in the way that we actually refuse brotherhood. And I think it's crippling.
Marcellino (06:04.623)
Mm-hmm.
Jason M. Craig (06:10.245)
and I was I was p I was fist, you know, pumping when I was reading your article. so tell me some of those those main presump those things that we've inherited that we as American men do think and act in that are completely hamstringing us. And maybe you could tell me where did you come to that conclusion? 'Cause there's there it looks like you're reacting against, you know, real experiences with real people.
Marcellino (06:27.78)
Yeah.
Marcellino (06:34.563)
Yeah, so let's just start with.
with this, I think maybe one of the big things that we've grown up with or that I grew up with, and I think most millennials did, certainly some Gen Zers and Gen Xers did, is this idea that our role is to evangelize, quote unquote.
Interestingly enough, the church almost never used the word evangelize at all until post Vatican II council. Before Vatican II, evangelization quote unquote was really done by orders. It was done by sisters and brothers who didn't have families, who didn't have the responsibilities of, yeah.
taking care of families really, which comes with a whole set of different needs and priorities. And they could go and sacrifice their lives and embrace martyrdom easily, or not easily, but just you're not leaving behind kids. And most of the time, these evangelists were protected by
states, they were state-supported, whole society-supported initiatives. So for instance, the evangelization of the Americas was done both by the conquistadors, well, it was protected to some extent by the conquistadors, but done by the Franciscans, the Jesuits, the Dominicans, et cetera. So.
Marcellino (08:29.143)
I guess like the reason why I'm starting there is because I think this idea is really key to understanding the problem that we're having with masculine fraternity, with building things now, which is that the lay role has been completely, like we just don't understand what the lay role is anymore. It's been blended with the religious role, which I don't think was the intention of the Second Vatican Council. But in its essence, that's what has happened is that
the lay role has blended and in many ways we've all been encouraged to embrace as an ideal the vocation of a religious order or a priest rather than what the traditional view of what you know the lay role was and especially the lay role of the man in in you know catholic history. So that's the place that I think we should start is like this idea of evangelization is like kind of the turning point for me of like
well, what it is that I'm reacting to, which is that we, I was really brought up in a lot of ways, like go out and spread the faith. was, I was a life teen kid in a suburb at one of the biggest life teen parishes in the country. I decided to go to seminary after that. I came out of it, went and did youth ministry in one of these big suburban parishes. I started a speaking ministry and a music ministry.
and was going out and doing retreats for kids. I saw, what I saw was that trying to fight the culture for these kids' lives and souls was a completely useless and almost entirely fruitless endeavor. It just was not, what I kind of came to was like, we are not going to win against the public school system, against band.
against football and soccer. If you just look at the time that these kids have in their days, it's like eight hours in school and two hours in activities and then three hours of watching social media and then you're gonna get one hour with them on Sunday maybe and you're gonna win that? Like no, that's not gonna happen. like I just started to see.
Jason M. Craig (10:47.661)
Yeah.
Marcellino (10:55.905)
all of these efforts and initiatives that we had supported with our agency, that I'd done, going nowhere, being fruitless. And then I looked at what was bearing fruit and it was all of these like super small, intimate, highly connected communities. was a group of Catholic families in Irving who were doing things like
playing rugby and putting on...
different parties and events around the Catholic calendar and starting schools. It was these like very gritty, hardworking things that were really just like about building relationships. I think, I don't know if last time I told you,
Jason M. Craig (11:49.11)
Yeah. The Yeah, I think well you were talking you you told me about the men that stopped the casino, you know. I know some of these men personally. I just I want to defend you really quick and give you if anybody if anybody winced, because we have been browbeat so bad. Missionary disciples, evangelical, be ev evangelism, evangelism, evangelism.
Marcellino (11:55.671)
Yeah.
Marcellino (12:09.751)
Right, right.
Jason M. Craig (12:14.571)
I'll send it to you, but if anybody wants to look for a biblical defense, if they're thinking Marcelino just sp spouted heresy, it's again is I wrote in the last issue of Sword and Spade was called Breaking the Evangelical Spell. and it's and it's essentially a defense of the layman. And I just want to point out that in scripture the the commission, right? The great commission and the the go forth to all the nations is explicitly written to the clergy. It is.
Marcellino (12:27.331)
That's so good, yeah.
Marcellino (12:31.364)
Yeah.
Marcellino (12:42.477)
Yeah.
Jason M. Craig (12:43.359)
And the way that we know that is listen to the tone and the directives of the rest of the New Testament, the clergy writing to the layman. Their job is to build, protect, guard. They're act they're they're quasi-insular. And I won't go into it, but it's I'll send you this article. But my my proposal is that we have to s the layman has to shift his understanding so that he can disburden his conscience from not being evangelical to realizing that his primary
the the pride primary lay virtue that in a sense is evangelical is actually hospitality, is is more monastic, where he builds the walls, protects, but then opens the door, right? Because if you don't build a wall, you can't open the door, right? There's no door if there's no wall. So what laymen can do is to build th the culture that actually is worth protecting and that has thresholds of entry. Because if there's if we're just all spilling out everywhere.
Marcellino (13:20.462)
Yeah.
Marcellino (13:35.982)
Yes.
Marcellino (13:40.227)
Right.
Jason M. Craig (13:43.244)
Right, in a constant sort of it's I wouldn't even call it a network. It's more of a a pyramid scheme, right? If that's how we view the gospel spreading is well, I'll disciple three and they'll disciple three and they'll disciple three. You know, we there's a lot of people that propose that and I I know that there's a certain value to that, but it actually isn't our primary vocation.
Marcellino (13:49.582)
Yeah.
Marcellino (14:03.107)
Well, what it is, is it's viewing Christianity through an individualistic lens. And that is the evangelicalism that you're advocating for the removal of and the liberal idea that a lot of conservative Catholic people have imbibed, which is like, it's just people.
Jason M. Craig (14:11.65)
Yes.
Marcellino (14:31.411)
need culture, they need something to live within, they need a walled garden. There are people who can somehow buck the trend of the culture and are willing to just completely abandon themselves to to God's providence and cut every tether that they they once had a lot of people's conversion experiences are like that for sure God definitely asks for like a change in
who you're gonna be around. But I think that for the most part, most people just really need community and culture that fosters the gospel. Like the gospel is not this like one and done, two minute thing that you receive and then you make a, you say the prayer and then you're saved, right? Like that is Protestant, not Catholic, and also totally not human.
So anyway, all I say is I think that in realizing that no, the process, if I want my kids to have faith.
They need to be inside of a culture and a community that is going to steward that, that is going to foster it. They need to see it lived. need to, it needs to not just be a Sunday thing. It needs to be like, this is how we do night prayer. This is how we do, I don't know, everything in our life needs to be completely saturated with Christ. How do you get that? That's the question. How do you get there, right?
Jason M. Craig (16:11.105)
Yeah. Well I think that that mind shift that you just or the mate, I'm sorry, mindset shift. Parents really need to hear that because they they think in terms you know, parenting has been turned it has has been turned into expertise, right? You have to manipulate the variables to to kid max or whatever we can call it to give like the and research continues to show that actually parents have
Marcellino (16:25.688)
Yeah.
Jason M. Craig (16:36.833)
I want to be careful here. They actually have pretty limited, or it's not limited, it's it's very important, it's foundational. But when you narrow your scope and and you think that you are in control, you actually are not recognizing the importance of the culture around your kid, right? This is why two kids raised in the same home can with the same parents are are totally different, right? And it's so when we shift to thinking about not as edu education the form of checking the boxes and maximizing the potential of our kids, but
Marcellino (16:50.862)
Yeah.
Jason M. Craig (17:06.483)
Initiating them into our culture. So it's not, it's not information, it's initiation. When we're bringing them into our culture, then we boom, when you do that as a parent, you have kids, you realize my primary job is not to give them all the right ingredients. It's for me to have a culture that they can enter into. It's so what do you think? What's the how do how do men do that? What where have you seen it? What are you thinking?
Marcellino (17:26.316)
Yes, that's right.
Marcellino (17:34.029)
So I think that let's talk about men and women's roles in that for a second here, because those are also different roles, which I'm sure you could probably speak to this even more eloquently than I could. But as we have blended the role of the lady and the religious, we've also blended the role of the man and the woman.
Hey.
Part of what is necessary for building culture is a missional building, which is not what women are built to do. They're not built to go out and carve out new territory for the community or setting the walls or the boundaries around it. Men really need to be doing that. and maybe you wanna riff on that for a second. I think you probably should.
Jason M. Craig (18:32.897)
Well, I think that's well no, no, I'm interviewing you. No, I I I have witnessed I mean definitely in the church. I too am a repentant youth former youth director. and the w if if the church has blended or the the you know, clergy and the religious on the local practical level, women are very much running you know, women and celibate clergy are running the the church.
Marcellino (18:43.276)
Hahaha!
Marcellino (19:01.132)
Yeah.
Jason M. Craig (19:03.321)
and the men actually, when you say get involved with your church, do you know why they don't want to do it? Because it's it's actually just volunteer for my program. That's really what you want from me. I mean, outside, I mean the knights actually do some pretty cool stuff. People like all they do is, you throw parties. I'm like, well, that's a cool job. But Catholic men do not see themselves as building anything related to the church. They see themselves
Marcellino (19:13.334)
Right. Yeah.
Marcellino (19:21.293)
Yeah.
Marcellino (19:26.466)
Yeah.
Jason M. Craig (19:28.873)
as as a you know as a place of devotion, but they don't see their connection with one another as and maybe you could I want to ask you about this. They don't see their connection if you were to say a man's network, a lot of men will think professionally, right? They're going to LinkedIn. They're thinking LinkedIn. tell me why we need to think about our parish in that way.
Marcellino (19:40.748)
Yeah. Yeah.
Marcellino (19:46.904)
Well, maybe, I don't know if I would say that we need to think about our parish that way.
Jason M. Craig (19:50.304)
wait, no. Hold on. Wait, I'm sorry. Okay, then you can you can correct me if I'm wrong, but we the the blending of men and women, yeah, that that is where yeah, you if you w if you want to keep going on that too, the Yeah, okay, th th we'll just keep going. Cut
Marcellino (20:03.095)
Yeah.
Yeah, all right. So we have, I think that we also need to accept something here that Catholic culture has been more or less abandoned and doesn't exist in most places. It just there's nothing there. There's almost nothing there. And even in the places that are far, you know, much further along, like I'm from Dallas, there's a really strong Catholic community. We're probably a couple of generations ahead of maybe
an average random town, there's still such a, such a dearth. There's so much work that it takes every family to try and like create Catholic culture for themselves. It's
So, Catholic culture doesn't exist for the most part. Who's gonna build that? That's the question. And how does it get built? Well, women can to some extent do some of that in the home, but...
They can't do the building of the thing that is going to connect the families together. They're not going to have a vision for it. They're not going to know what to, like, that has to be men. Men are the builders. They are the ones who are going to go out and stake the claim to whatever that new thing is. And so even some things that would seem like it would be a woman's role, like planning the party, I think that is something that a group of men need to get together
Marcellino (21:38.827)
and say we are going to throw like the St. Lawrence barbecue on St. Lawrence Day and we're going to make that like just every year this is going to be the thing that people are looking forward to coming to. I'm not saying that's enough but like it literally has to start at such a small scale as that. What can you actually control? You need do it together with other dudes who also like want to see the same thing happen. So yeah that's my
Yeah.
Jason M. Craig (22:09.367)
Well, that's interesting that you said the f your first idea is actually an act of hospitality, right? It's an act of and if anyone's thinking that's not great, actually the the Christian's first response to reality is joy, right? So that's why we have feasts. the church commands feasts that you do something. And we're supposed to be hospitable. It is absolutely I I'm amazed, you know, we just have a Friday night music thing at our house. We just
Marcellino (22:16.909)
Yeah.
Marcellino (22:38.167)
Hmm.
Jason M. Craig (22:38.303)
Actually it's it started actually for just we had Catholic neighbors. I'm like, we need to see each other on purpose a lot. So, you know, it's like started bringing them over and then before you know it, there's it becomes a thing that people can you can invite to. So the fraternist man out there listening, you know, we have you can join fraternists as an individual, right? You just join and you get our stuff, you get our materials. But over and over over we we will declare to you, you're doing it wrong until you're doing it with other men. And that actually just starts in the backyard. Like get around a fire, cook something.
Marcellino (23:05.752)
Yep.
Jason M. Craig (23:07.361)
And if anyone thinks that well, we need to be like doing a it's good to like do your Bible studies, read your books, but I find men really enjoy just some time to be men. just enjoy each other's for actually just to be able to start building the fraternity. A lot of them they don't even know each other.
Marcellino (23:24.29)
Yeah. So there are also things like cleaning up an area of the highway that you could do.
You could, there are a lot of different ways that you can, you can begin marshaling men together. An example of one group in Dallas that's really interesting is the 75 Club. Somebody pays for drinks. Some dude gets up and gives like a short talk about something.
They meet at a bar, they hang out. And then one of the coolest parts about it though is that for every guy who's in it who has a new baby, one of the men in it, name's Henry Laurent, amazing dude, he...
asks the entire group chat to send him a Venmo of like 10, 20, 30 bucks. And he goes out and buys whiskey, really nice whiskey or nice tequila, whatever, and brings it to that new father's house. And this is just, it's like such a small act of generosity and facilitation that makes a huge difference. We need layers and layers.
and layers and layers of that to build this sort of cohesive community and culture that kids can be raised in that will keep them Catholic, that will make them holier than we were.
Jason M. Craig (24:54.689)
Yeah. So how how do you see this? It's this is again an un a lot of men, you know, when you say go get involved to your parish, they're like, I don't want to volunteer for the core team of Blink. but you're describing something. How do you see that? This is very different from what you were doing as a youth guy. so does this kind of thing should we just you know, Trey Bailey, our mutual friend, he calls it the Robin Hood option. He's like somehow you just gotta like you resp like because the Robin Hood guys, they respect the church.
Marcellino (25:05.378)
Yeah, I don't
Marcellino (25:12.326)
yeah.
Marcellino (25:18.828)
Yeah.
Jason M. Craig (25:23.649)
They they love society, but both of them are a mess. So they just band together as men, they go out into the woods, they they live, they live, they do what needs to be done, and they live joyfully as brothers. So describe like you're not describing starting parish programs, but you're also d but you're also, you know, we recognize that we want to be careful here because people might hear that as like, I don't care about ecclesial structure or communion or anything like that. but I think maybe men are just ham or do you think men are just
Marcellino (25:38.69)
No.
Jason M. Craig (25:52.001)
hamstrung and their imagination.
Marcellino (25:52.184)
Well, I yeah, I think you just gotta go back to like, what is the church supposed to be doing? What is the lay vocation? What are these two things? The lay vocation said very simply, make love, make war, make babies.
Jason M. Craig (26:09.207)
Yeah.
Marcellino (26:12.193)
Build civilization, that's what your job is. So like your job is not to go and start RCIA and teach people about the faith. Maybe that's a fun thing that you could use as a kind of cover for building this stuff. But like for the most part, the church just.
has never seen itself as like the place for Christian civilization to be built. The monasteries, that's like they did that to some extent, but even then, like the lady were around the monastery doing the thing. They weren't in the monastery, you know? So I think that it's just a, it's a shift in perspective that.
Jason M. Craig (26:50.54)
Mm-hmm.
Marcellino (26:58.285)
The thing that really, like what is Catholicism? What is it? Is it a set of principles that you adhere to? I believe all of the things the church teaches, therefore I'm Catholic, but I don't go to mass and I don't really like, I don't ever pray. Is that it? Is it like?
I think to some extent maybe Catholics have thought that because it's really easy and safe to do apologetics online. But I don't think that ever converted, maybe it's converted a couple people, but what really converts people is, hey, this community and culture is radically different from anything that I've seen. I see love here, I feel love here, I want to belong to that.
So how do you create that? That's what Catholic men need to be asking themselves. They need to be doing it together.
Jason M. Craig (27:52.405)
Yeah. And you're are you are you married with kids? I feel like okay. How old are your kids?
Marcellino (27:55.031)
Yeah.
I have a six-year-old and a one-year-old and one on the way.
Jason M. Craig (28:01.037)
That's right. I remember that last time. Congratulations. getting that making love part down. That's good. I also, I mean, in in that, I cause I think pe somebody might say, Well, actually, there was a ton of converts thanks to like Jordan Peterson videos and YouTube. And I'm like, I and people come to me and they go, Hey, aren't you excited? It's young men, they're coming in the church, isn't this great? And a lot of part of me is like, No, I'm not excited. Here's why. as a c as Catholics.
Marcellino (28:06.836)
Hahaha
Marcellino (28:25.921)
Hmm.
Jason M. Craig (28:30.923)
Or I'm sorry, I rejoice and I am excited at the return of anyone to Christ. I am happy. Here's my fear is that the problem in the church is not evangelization. We are not shrinking because we are not growing. That is a that's a false people will say that, you know, a church, it's like the Dead Sea. If it's not flowing out, nothing's flowing in, or or if you're you're dead, you know, you're not chosen if you're frozen, you know, like
Marcellino (28:42.295)
Yeah.
Marcellino (28:48.04)
Hahaha
Jason M. Craig (28:58.101)
All these things that like if you're not growing actively, constantly expanding, then you're shrinking. That's not true. Retention is our biggest issue in the church in the United States ac actually in the West, which is we're not retaining our children. So I do have a fear these guys coming in and we don't have a shared way of life, a shared culture with them. And we actually let 'cause you know, fifty percent of roughly fifty percent of people that go through RCIA or OCIA, whatever it is, they fall out within a within a year.
Marcellino (29:07.17)
Yes.
Jason M. Craig (29:27.093)
And in my parish, we had one of these giant, you know, explosions of converts come in last year, like a lot of people experienced. And I met with my pastor, they're already trickling away. So it's you have to have a thick retaining a culture that retains because it's it is your source of belonging, or you're gonna go somewhere else.
Marcellino (29:41.921)
Yes.
Marcellino (29:45.729)
Yeah, marketing is sexy.
Jason M. Craig (29:49.249)
Ha ha ha.
Marcellino (29:49.74)
Yeah, marketing is super sexy. So we got hired to do that, right? We've been hired by the church to do that. But you know what is not sexy? Like stopping the bleed. But that's actually what matters in business. And it's what matters in faith too. Like churn, if you can fix churn, your business is gonna be amazing if you're a tech startup, right? Like SaaS.
Jason M. Craig (30:01.458)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Jason M. Craig (30:14.871)
Yeah. Yeah.
Marcellino (30:16.641)
Fixing churn, that is the thing. That means like, and here's the thing, nobody wants to fix that because it means that you haven't hit product market fit. So I'm using business terminology here, but I think that it applies very effectively to what our ailments in the church really are, which is that the reason why people are leaving is because we don't have product market fit.
People do not want what we are selling. If you fix that,
Jason M. Craig (30:48.801)
Hm. Have you heard a cler have you heard a churchman like admit that and say, Yes, let's do something? 'Cause yeah Yeah. I
Marcellino (30:56.237)
Hell no, dude. That's like, this is the big secret in every single Catholic apostolate, all of them. You know who is like the defining person for every single Catholic organization that like you gotta keep happy? 65 year old women. EWTN, Hail Hallow, the new cool thing. Ascension Prep, every single one of these things.
65 year old woman is the power user, power purchaser of the thing. They're the donor. They are all going away 20 years from now. Gone. So I guess like the reason why I bring that up is we have product market fit for them, I guess, you know, but for no one else.
Jason M. Craig (31:37.453)
Hm.
Jason M. Craig (31:47.308)
Yeah.
Marcellino (31:49.514)
zero other people, no other demographics do we have product market fit for as a church. But no one wants to talk about that because you would have to change substantial things.
Jason M. Craig (31:54.774)
Mm-hmm.
Jason M. Craig (31:58.701)
Yeah.
Jason M. Craig (32:02.699)
Well, I also think you would have to admit fault and error in ways that require such human because I as a father, you know what's really hard as a father to say I was wrong. It's actually really hard. Your kids get older, you wait till your kids are old. It's just and even if we're praying and we know humili, I've read humility of heart. I've read the books, I know that it's just hard to say. And for us to admit the problem of retention that we have in the church right now.
Marcellino (32:08.033)
Yes.
Jason M. Craig (32:30.071)
for a for a for a churchman to actually admit that requires such coura the o courage, the only place I ever saw it, I actually one of the humblest things I've ever read from well Pope was Joseph or Pope Benedict's op h the letter, the the introductory letter that went with Samoa pontificum, when he said, basically, I was one of the people excited about what we were doing.
But this letter basically admits he's like, I was one of them. Like this, it was exciting. It was an exhilarating time. But man, it didn't go well. Like that's basically what this letter says, you know, regarding the liturgy. For that I think our church right now, there is what I the I call the the catechetical industrial complex, this giant network of curriculums and DREs and and the companies that support them and hymnal printers and and liturgical resources and outfitters and dioceses.
Marcellino (33:03.884)
Yeah.
Marcellino (33:07.841)
Yeah.
Jason M. Craig (33:26.093)
That are contracted with these people to fulfill these needs and like there's a big thing. Sixty and they're all they're all tooled to that. I can tell you fraternist ain't tooled for that, but we please Lord help us.
Marcellino (33:29.997)
65 year old women, Every single thing.
Marcellino (33:38.605)
Yeah, which is probably why parishes have been a rough, rough go.
Jason M. Craig (33:45.334)
Yeah. Well, I I it's amazing what happens. it is very sad. This this year we had another chapter, a group of men, it's like a hundred and thirty of men men and boys. And new pastor, new DRE came in and they got rid of And it was such an eye opening moment that these men actually think they need permission to continue to be brothers. So they don't need permission. But that the catechat the catechetical indust industrial complex
Marcellino (34:10.795)
Yeah. No.
Jason M. Craig (34:14.997)
Wanted to fit them into their comprehensive youth strategy, you know, based on these documents from the USDC. It's just men that live somewhere and have affection for a place and they have generational care for a place do so much better of a job think well, if they do, if if they're not thinking generationally, they're making a mistake. But when they start thinking generationally, they're so much better than the ringer Stupanville grad coming in to be the DRE or the youth director. They they
Marcellino (34:19.145)
Right, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marcellino (34:43.873)
thousand percent.
Jason M. Craig (34:44.961)
They will build if we let them build it. Yeah, yeah. So okay.
Marcellino (34:49.525)
Right. mean, when you were a kid, right, like, who did you want to be like? Right. Like you wanted to be a part of the older kids, especially the older dudes who were hanging out. They were really cool to you, right? Like you wanted to be a part of that bike gang of guys. Same thing is true. Still, that is human nature. So like build the bike gang.
Jason M. Craig (35:13.345)
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
Marcellino (35:19.531)
and then people are gonna wanna join it. But if you don't have that, no single well-educated.
Christendom grad or whatever student will grad can start that that has to be there that has to be there So or I mean I've seen it happen like I've seen guys start these things, but they rarely ever are just Some part of a parish program. I've never seen it work as a parish program or institutional program of any kind I've seen it work great as like we start there and we come out of it and we like pull people into these other things that are
Jason M. Craig (35:43.053)
Mm-hmm.
Marcellino (35:57.131)
just lay light initiatives.
Jason M. Craig (35:59.362)
Yeah. Well, I've actually seen it. So I'll I'll say I have seen it work in fraternists. But like I said, the problem with the Paris program is that, or you know, well one, you want because I would argue that we want to institutionalize these fraternities. So you build small, you get bigger, and then you institutionalize it because then, for example, a fraternist squad meeting in a backyard, that's great. But you're probably not going to reach the fatherless. But if you institutionalize it, you just gain better leverage. But
Marcellino (36:14.241)
Yeah.
Jason M. Craig (36:27.585)
This is where I think I have seen where it where the Paris program becomes something different. And I would liken it to there's a book, I reference it all the time. It's called The Art of Subsidiarity. It's medieval guilds. And one of the things he points out, points out is that the power that the men who are the ones that preserve and protect the place, so these these guilds, they actually, even in the in the Middle Ages, in the height of Christendom, gained power.
And authority over the clergy. Now, I want to be really careful. They didn't subvert the roles, but they served as a sort of lay intermediary body of men because they actually now I know, I know like that example of the parish program of the fraternity chapter getting kicked out. We could fight it by canon law because laymen have a right to associate without nope, you can't because there's a false sense of.
authority that a lot of people get and even the DREs will get Well they'll like I know a pastor recent he told this group of women to stop meeting because the deacon's wife was having her own women's group and it was compete. It's like, no, okay, shut shut up. Now they actually had we could fight that. You have rights against that. They cannot tell you there is, you know, I like to you're you don't need your bishop's permission to go camping, right? but these men in these chapters, what they've gained, one, they've gained reputation.
Marcellino (37:34.762)
Yup. Classic dude. Classic parish crap.
Jason M. Craig (37:53.608)
and they've gained leverage to where if they were now God willing, they remain in total peace with like church authorities, but if there was tension, they actually have enough leverage to say, No, you will not tell us that we will not go camping, right? Because
Marcellino (38:07.584)
Well, that's already happening, right? Like, lay people have tremendous authority and influence. It's just not you. It's like...
Jason M. Craig (38:19.915)
It's the catechetical industrial complex, sixty five year old women. Is that what you're telling me? Yes.
Marcellino (38:24.362)
Yeah. Yeah. So, and then, yeah, go.
Jason M. Craig (38:28.823)
But it but y but you don't think the answer is for men to go be 'cause go be parish staff 'cause
Marcellino (38:33.42)
No, kids like that, that makes, now you are underneath the peri- you know, the catechetical industrial complex, as you like to call it. Your job is now to fulfill the wishes of the Pastoral Council, the USCCB, like all of these layers of intermediary, like, bureaucratic BS.
It's almost impossible to be effective in those kinds of situations. And at the same time, you're doing it for $50,000, you're never gonna be able to to take care of your kids effectively, you're gonna be burned out because you're, I don't know, pair staff are worked like absolutely insane hours.
So yeah, where's the time for you to build your actual vocation? Where's the financial resources to build your actual vocation? And then when a new pastor comes in and you get cut, or you do something that's actually great, and some bureaucrat in the diocese wants to get rid of it because it's upstaging them.
Now you have nothing on your resume that's gonna help you move forward. So I think that is like the absolute worst thing that you can do as a young man is like go into parish or evangelization or apostolate ministry. You need to get on the path to make get building resources that you can then deploy to support other men and other initiatives that are actually doing the job of building Christendom. So that's my.
Jason M. Craig (40:07.563)
I cannot, I cannot second that enough. I have never yeah, every man, because this happens to a lot of men. It happened to me. You have genuine zeal for the Lord. You want to save souls, be a part of that. Maybe you're now I will say this too. there's a great book called I can't remember the name of it. Basically, the thesis is narcissists are hugely attracted to ministry jobs. So you need to be careful of that. and yeah, I have encountered I encountered
Marcellino (40:15.946)
Yeah.
Marcellino (40:30.602)
Yes.
Jason M. Craig (40:37.009)
you know, narcissistic, powerful women within diocese. They can really, it's amazing what they can do. it's horrifying actually. But no, as a Catholic man, it does not make you more Catholic to go work for an apostolate, to go full time with your apologetics blog to I know there are people for whom I I work with for a full time Catholic apostle. I have for a long time. But I worked in that might be more possible.
Marcellino (40:40.971)
Yep.
Jason M. Craig (41:06.219)
But working in a parish job or diocesan job is going to end at some point with you going, This is it's not possible to be a professional in this atmosphere. Now, I will there is a an exception. I would say higher level diocesan management, accounting, legal, those kind of things. That's actually probably pretty helpful.
Marcellino (41:23.05)
Yeah. But those guys, they don't get hired from inside the church. You don't get that because you are a youth minister. You get that because you are effect. Yeah.
Jason M. Craig (41:31.777)
Yeah. You're a good accountant. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. 'Cause you're a professional. So be a professional. If you want to serve the church, be a be a layman, be a professional.
Marcellino (41:40.94)
Yeah. And this is also a really unfortunate reality. As a Catholic man, status actually, layman, status actually matters a lot. It's just the reality of how the world works. And by taking on a, I learned this the hard way. I was like, I don't care what the world says, I'm gonna do whatever it takes to help build the kingdom. Went and got a job as a youth minister, did all of the things to build.
you know, did ministry in college as an intern. What did that do for me as a man now looking back 10 years later? Well, it lowered my status significantly so that I couldn't get roles elsewhere because it's seen as like, wow, you must not be able to actually function in the real world. So you got the like junior varsity C team jersey, you know, that's how it's perceived. And there's not anything that you're going to be able to do to change that. Sorry.
Jason M. Craig (42:27.201)
Yeah.
Marcellino (42:38.025)
So like, just influence, lay influence exists, but you have to build it. So yeah.
Jason M. Craig (42:50.583)
So all right, tell us tell us what you mean by status and why and how that doesn't grate on our need to be humble.
Marcellino (42:58.123)
Man, I'm still trying to work this one out for myself. So yeah, in all humility, this has been a really hard one for me. But like a lot of like hard lessons learned, I guess, with this. But just that the way that human beings make really most decisions is...
Jason M. Craig (43:01.825)
Ha ha ha ha.
Marcellino (43:19.881)
does this give me higher status within the community that I'm a part of, or does it lower my status within the community that I'm a part of? Almost every human interaction has that element to it. Purchases, relationships. So when you look at things like,
your resume builders. Most of these things actually are complete trash and are not meaningful at all. But they have status signals attached to them. And that's really what universities or these kinds of credentialing systems are selling, is higher status markers. So I got an MBA from Harvard. Awesome.
Jason M. Craig (44:00.749)
Yeah.
Marcellino (44:04.413)
I know lots of guys who got MBAs from Harvard who are not actually very sophisticated business people. like it's, that stuff, go ahead.
Jason M. Craig (44:14.733)
Could I propose that maybe we could propose a different word then? because Aquinas uses the word honor. and the I think the false sense of status would be vainglory, right? Which is a sin again, and vainglory is where you're actually doing the th so an example would be the soldier who has regalia. I'm sorry, his medals that he wears. He wears the medals because he has done something worth.
Marcellino (44:27.616)
Yeah.
Jason M. Craig (44:44.619)
rewarding and the purpose for the medal is actually public. It signals to the public that this is an honorable thing. And you should we're honoring it in this way. So actually the medals are not for him. They're for them to to for a public display of virtue. So that's how we honor them. And vainglory would be trying to skip the acts of honor so that I can have the signals. This is like this whole virtue signaling thing. I can have the signals of of honor without honor. That's called vainglory. So I would argue that
We do have to be very careful because the the sen envy, mimetic desires, you know, these things that can contort. We're actually not w we're going after the signals without the growth. 'Cause we we men, especially if we're young, like we want to skip the time it takes to actually gain wisdom and and it's like I don't I don't wanna I you know what, I would love to have abs. but I just don't wanna do any of the work in between. So, shoot me up, doctor. Give me some Ozempic. But
Marcellino (45:29.876)
Yeah.
Marcellino (45:42.132)
I think that's right. And within a properly ordered society, you wouldn't just be able to get status markers without having done the work. However, we live in a society where everything is basically anonymous and there's no such thing as honor for the most part.
You only really have honor within a community, a small community that knows each other over the course of time. In an anonymous, individualized community, all you have is like whatever the institution told you that you are, you know. It's...
Jason M. Craig (46:18.123)
Yeah, that's interesting because that becomes the job, I think. That's the it is the job again of the local fraternity of men. We define what is honorable and then we honor them again with a public act. Right? We are the ones that we will define it and then we will honor it when we see it. And when you meet that, because then if you don't have that, well I mean, of course we're gonna get online and look for clicks and likes and impressions. When you actually when you don't have men around you that you who's
Marcellino (46:24.063)
Yes.
Marcellino (46:28.425)
Yes, yes.
Marcellino (46:43.242)
Right.
Jason M. Craig (46:46.889)
opinion of you you care about, you could do all sorts of terrible shit, you know. excuse me. You got me fired up there. so yeah, I would I'd say that well, why can't we define these status and honor and humility as well? That's also the the men need to keep that themselves as well.
Marcellino (46:51.401)
Right.
Marcellino (47:05.331)
Right, yeah, have like part of what culture really creating culture is, is determining what that honor system is going to look like. If you study it.
study a tribe. So I did a lot of like anthropology research as I was trying to understand what like I described at the beginning of this conversation. I looked into like sociology and anthropology to try to like figure out who studied religion, what have they said about it, what have they said about like the process of building culture, changing, you know, what can we learn there? And yeah, I mean basically the way that tribes work is
more or less what you've articulated in your book. Like there's, there is a right of initiation, but that has to come after some sort of like being outcast oftentimes. Like there's a lot of men's group or men in these tribes who like take the young boys out of the village for a serious amount of time, years sometimes. And
That is because there has to be a sort of like severing with the previous culture and they need to be introduced to a new honor system. The initiation rite is oftentimes about conveying honor upon a man for submitting to that honor system and doing something that is like profoundly honorable. So.
I guess all that to say is like.
Marcellino (48:51.145)
The process of becoming a part of a new tribe is the process of adopting a new honor, set of honor rules and shame rules. And that can be either incredibly healthy or incredibly unhealthy, right? Like gang culture is kind of like that. You have to do something atrocious and horrifying to meet the quote unquote honor system of the gang. But that's human nature.
Jason M. Craig (48:59.531)
Hmm. Hmm.
Jason M. Craig (49:15.884)
Mm-hmm.
Marcellino (49:21.043)
we are governed by this sort of desire to negotiate this sort of status hierarchy that we're in. So we have to do that in a way that's healthy.
Jason M. Craig (49:30.049)
Yeah, maybe. Yeah. Yeah. Cause what you're describing, it's helping me even see it's not I think this this the tension of what we hear when we hear status is detached from relationships and responsibility. It's actually just it's fighting for, you know, slices of the pie. Whereas
Marcellino (49:45.792)
Yeah.
Jason M. Craig (49:50.762)
Anthropologically speaking, the way tribes work is they provide the structure and the hierarchy so that you can ascend. And really it's actually more inclusive because when you have a fatherly look, you're not going to let someone not be have status. You are going to bring them to the status. You're going to bring them to the place of honor because that's who they really are. They're one of you. That's that is their identity. So it's it's not as if you're giving them markers to rise above their peers.
Marcellino (49:57.13)
Yes. Right.
Marcellino (50:04.597)
Yeah.
Marcellino (50:11.869)
Right. Right.
Jason M. Craig (50:20.075)
which is the way the world wants to use it, you're actually giving them markers to rise and ascend to higher levels of belonging and fraternity with the men.
Marcellino (50:27.071)
Yes. Well, if it's done, if it's positive, if it's healthy, right, that's that's what it's supposed to do is this whole kind of like
modern egalitarianism, when you just like look at human nature and look at the studies around like how people make decisions, it's just so false. Like hierarchy is literally embedded in every single decision that we're making. It's how we are built to function and think. So that can either be great or it can be awful. So we got to decide as men if we want what that's going to be for our families and for our kids. Or we can let the culture decide what that is and then
fight against it with one hour a week catechesis. Those are your options.
Jason M. Craig (51:12.385)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that's our full strategy, right? Yeah. No, I I and it's also I I just I commend you for for I mean we're not I'm we're not that much different in age, but I've got adolescent kids entering adulthood, you got young kids. I wish I would have known how important, you know, your local fraternity is. 'cause I remember I remember the article went around, we actually share it sometimes, why your men's group will eventually fail and
it's actually a young He's talking about, you know, you're gonna have a bunch of dads, you're gonna get together, but then you're gonna have kids, you're gonna be busy, you you do exodus like three times, and you're gonna and it and it just falls apart. and I think I as I read that, it was like I've well, I've I've seen else otherwise, and I think the problem is our egalitarianism, our our liberalism. We don't realize we need to commit in responsibility to one another and just recognize that like actually it's not this isn't a men's group. This is a fraternity that exists and we have
Marcellino (52:03.784)
Yes.
Jason M. Craig (52:11.167)
And instead of thinking about it as voluntary social co religionist groups, this is actually your responsibility. Your your burden to carry. This is one of
Marcellino (52:15.646)
Right.
Yeah.
Marcellino (52:22.951)
And it's also like...
Man, if you just look at the institutions and trace them back to like where they started, most of the institutions in our world that we think are like these crazy big things now, they started with a group of men in a room together, committing their lives and their mutual honor to getting the thing done. Real stakes, real risk.
mission, building something big. That's how almost everything started. That's how our country started.
Jason M. Craig (53:00.023)
Yeah.
Jason M. Craig (53:04.877)
All right. I have a I have a all right, then I have a you've already given us an hour. I'm so grateful for w we could just riff and talk all the time. This is great. I'd like to then ask you a parting question, which is so you know, you're a young guy that has like gone
full force in recognizing the importance of this. I mean that is but you're you you s you recognize what you're doing right now, which is so refreshing, which is building something that doesn't exist. Right? That's 'cause a lot of people you can feel cause the accusation from the enemy and from naysayers and cynics is like, you don't, you know, you don't know what you're talking about. Basically, why did you know it's it's I think you called it black pilled in your and there
Marcellino (53:52.895)
Yeah, I think really it's just like, really like, this seems so hard and so un- like, so un- rewarding work. And this is like starting, it's like trying to squeeze water, you know, in a dry sponge or like, dig a hole.
in the desert with like a tiny little shovel. That's what it feels like. It feels like so overwhelming. You mean to tell me that like, instead of hoping for the next 10 years, I need to start hoping and working for 100 years from now and accept that it's gonna suck for the most part. Like that's actually more of what, and so then I don't wanna do it. That's the temptation.
Jason M. Craig (54:42.167)
So my question was gonna be, what are you gonna tell a young man who feels that way?
Marcellino (54:46.682)
Marcellino (54:57.95)
Yeah, I think.
I'm still struggling with this myself. It feels like what I just said, to do the things that I know I need to do to just host a group of men. That's what I have to do to like save Western civilization, you know? that's, yes, yeah, that is it. You can either do that or do nothing. Which one do you wanna do?
Jason M. Craig (55:22.365)
Ha.
Marcellino (55:32.318)
You gotta do what is it within your power. And I think that taking action, even small action, what's the smallest action that you can take toward this mission? Is it giving a friend a phone call? If that's as small as you gotta make it, do it. But yeah, you gotta just start doing it.
Jason M. Craig (55:55.98)
Yeah. All right, can I give you some encouragement then? 'Cause you're the young guy who just looked in the camera. I I don't know why it's just 'cause your kids are younger than mine it makes Trey says I do this to him all the time. He's like, Jason, you're three years older than me. I'm like, Yeah, but my kids are
Marcellino (56:00.299)
Dude, I'm not that young.
Marcellino (56:05.456)
Yeah.
I mean it is a lot of life. You've lived more life than me for sure.
Jason M. Craig (56:15.761)
well my my encouragement is I remember it's felt that way and as your kid is actually when when life becomes generational, meaning, you know, I'm like there's three generations around me right now and there's i it's it all this like when culture is built, it
By definition, it becomes less of a fight. You just get to enjoy it more because you're not it's sort of like when you build a house. Like I've built my house and when I got done, I was so tired of building a house. I'm so sick of it. I don't wanna I don't wanna put up another board. I don't wanna paint any like I I don't wanna do anything, which is why there's still rooms without like trim. 'cause I'm like I'm done. But the reward of building something is that then you get to sleep in it, you know? And like and men, there there there is a time and it's wonderful.
Marcellino (56:36.766)
Yes.
Marcellino (56:54.026)
you
Marcellino (57:00.253)
Yeah.
Jason M. Craig (57:04.41)
all right, so if we want to get a hold of Marcelino, where should we go?
Marcellino (57:11.378)
Yeah, so you can follow me on X, Marcelino posts. You can also follow Chris and quarterly on X and sub stack. I also do marketing work. So if I've sufficiently convinced you that marketing is bullshit.
Jason M. Craig (57:30.316)
Ha ha.
Marcellino (57:30.698)
I don't know. It's not. Actually, this is marketing. Marketing is like thinking about the bigger picture, not just like throwing ads at people who don't want your thing. But yeah, if you need marketing help, Sherwood Fellows, we would love to support you. So yeah, those are the places to go.
Jason M. Craig (57:40.587)
Yep. Yeah.
Jason M. Craig (57:48.971)
All right. Thanks, Marshallino. If you enjoyed this podcast and you want to be a part of the men that are actually building something, and don't you remember that little the image of the shovel in the desert? We've always proposed in sword and spade, those are the two main tools of men. You're either defending something or you're building something. So the sword and the spade. If you want a spade, if you want a more of a spade, come join us as a fraternist brother. You can do it as an individual, but we will pressure you to get other guys together and
hopefully build stuff like what Marcelino is building. Marcelino, thank you for being on the Sword and Spade podcast.
Marcellino (58:20.234)
Appreciate it. All right, bye.
All right, friends, listeners, subscribers to fraternist, welcome to the Sword and Spade podcast. I'm particularly excited today because I've got a guest on here who is part of a brotherhood that understands something about brotherhood, is that if there is a a genius, an element of what makes Catholic lay fraternity that makes it what it is.
It's that it's building something and it's actually going somewhere. this is the unexamined r recommendation at the very beginning of the the Pope who who really went to battle with the what the modern world was and has done, Rerum Navarum, Pope Leo the Thirteenth. A lot of people debate all sorts of minute points about it, and they skip over at the end of the encyclical one of his most practical, immediate
Marcellino (01:48.624)
Hmm
Jason M. Craig (02:15.185)
Obvious things you need to do right now is to rekindle the work of the medieval confraternities that we call guilds because local fraternity is not meant to be social. It's actually the intermediary between large powers and the individuals in our care. And throughout the history of Christendom, one of the most important things that men did was to be the intermediary body.
that protects and builds their local community. That's what they do. so Marcelino DiAmbrosio, it was so great to have you last time. I think we kind of even got we were like comparing notes about ideas like rites of passage initiation. do you want to follow up with me on any of that stuff? I mean, did you read the book yet or
Marcellino (02:56.388)
Yeah.
Marcellino (03:02.768)
my gosh, dude, I bought it and I haven't gone through it yet. I'm so sorry, but I am really excited about it.
Jason M. Craig (03:10.177)
All right, that's too vain of now. We're not gonna continue then. That's vain. But yeah, any well we'll we'll need to recircle around. and I want you to tell us if anybody wants to learn more about you, they can listen to the other one or I don't know, Google you and get confused on like who your dad is. But you g you this group called the Sherwood Fellows, is both a marketing company and kind of a writer's group and Substack, if people don't remember from last time.
Marcellino (03:27.524)
Hahaha
Marcellino (03:33.359)
Yeah.
Jason M. Craig (03:39.095)
You have to been punched in the face to be a part of it 'cause that was Marcelino's initiation. was a just an all out brawl. so he's now imposed it on his men.
Marcellino (03:44.688)
Ha, yeah.
So just a brand continuity thing here. Sherwood Fellows is my agency. The writers group and brotherhood is called Christendom Quarterly, which we named when we decided we were going to do a publication and since then have decided not to do that but still have quarterly in our name and the alliteration work.
Jason M. Craig (03:53.195)
Yeah, do it. Do it.
Jason M. Craig (04:01.557)
excuse me.
Jason M. Craig (04:13.015)
Could could we invite you then? I'm just gonna say it right now, without I didn't talk to my team, but they would trust this. We already have a quarterly. We it's called Sword and Spade. I'm gonna save you guys a couple pages in every issue. and and the reason I'm gonna do that and what I want I'm gonna confine you to is some of your your ideas, especially in the article, which you sadly said is not widely read, Sowing the Seeds of Christendom. I it it
Marcellino (04:20.752)
Mm-hmm.
Marcellino (04:26.045)
hell yeah.
Jason M. Craig (04:41.599)
I I think you have a great understanding of what needs to be done. But something I noticed is that, you know, you guys are young. This is not something that's been done. So in a certain way, it's some theoretical stuff. but I'm I'm viewing it just, you know, when I read that, I'm looking retroactively at a lot of the experience of fraternists and recognizing this is what happens when men begin to take, you know, because we're 20 years in. Not as big, you know, digital brand, but we've got places
Marcellino (04:53.52)
Mm-hmm.
Marcellino (05:02.606)
Yes.
Jason M. Craig (05:11.339)
Where they're now you know, I just went to a ranch and there was f one family that had like five generations there. it was just the way the ages worked out and the the the the the fecundity of their family. I don't I know. maybe I'm aging it right. Yeah, I don't know. It was like wait, wait. Yeah, I think it was five, maybe it was four. Anyway, it was a lot. very young fathers maybe.
Marcellino (05:23.578)
Dude, how do you even do that?
Marcellino (05:32.068)
Well.
Jason M. Craig (05:39.842)
But I'm seeing that they're building things. So if you don't mind, I'd like to ask though, tell me some of the key you guys are reacting against commonly held beliefs that I think I'm with you that they are inherited by conservatively minded, traditionally minded men, especially in America, that that in their essence they're actually liberal ideas. but they're preserved in the way that we actually refuse brotherhood. And I think it's crippling.
Marcellino (06:04.623)
Mm-hmm.
Jason M. Craig (06:10.245)
and I was I was p I was fist, you know, pumping when I was reading your article. so tell me some of those those main presump those things that we've inherited that we as American men do think and act in that are completely hamstringing us. And maybe you could tell me where did you come to that conclusion? 'Cause there's there it looks like you're reacting against, you know, real experiences with real people.
Marcellino (06:27.78)
Yeah.
Marcellino (06:34.563)
Yeah, so let's just start with.
with this, I think maybe one of the big things that we've grown up with or that I grew up with, and I think most millennials did, certainly some Gen Zers and Gen Xers did, is this idea that our role is to evangelize, quote unquote.
Interestingly enough, the church almost never used the word evangelize at all until post Vatican II council. Before Vatican II, evangelization quote unquote was really done by orders. It was done by sisters and brothers who didn't have families, who didn't have the responsibilities of, yeah.
taking care of families really, which comes with a whole set of different needs and priorities. And they could go and sacrifice their lives and embrace martyrdom easily, or not easily, but just you're not leaving behind kids. And most of the time, these evangelists were protected by
states, they were state-supported, whole society-supported initiatives. So for instance, the evangelization of the Americas was done both by the conquistadors, well, it was protected to some extent by the conquistadors, but done by the Franciscans, the Jesuits, the Dominicans, et cetera. So.
Marcellino (08:29.143)
I guess like the reason why I'm starting there is because I think this idea is really key to understanding the problem that we're having with masculine fraternity, with building things now, which is that the lay role has been completely, like we just don't understand what the lay role is anymore. It's been blended with the religious role, which I don't think was the intention of the Second Vatican Council. But in its essence, that's what has happened is that
the lay role has blended and in many ways we've all been encouraged to embrace as an ideal the vocation of a religious order or a priest rather than what the traditional view of what you know the lay role was and especially the lay role of the man in in you know catholic history. So that's the place that I think we should start is like this idea of evangelization is like kind of the turning point for me of like
well, what it is that I'm reacting to, which is that we, I was really brought up in a lot of ways, like go out and spread the faith. was, I was a life teen kid in a suburb at one of the biggest life teen parishes in the country. I decided to go to seminary after that. I came out of it, went and did youth ministry in one of these big suburban parishes. I started a speaking ministry and a music ministry.
and was going out and doing retreats for kids. I saw, what I saw was that trying to fight the culture for these kids' lives and souls was a completely useless and almost entirely fruitless endeavor. It just was not, what I kind of came to was like, we are not going to win against the public school system, against band.
against football and soccer. If you just look at the time that these kids have in their days, it's like eight hours in school and two hours in activities and then three hours of watching social media and then you're gonna get one hour with them on Sunday maybe and you're gonna win that? Like no, that's not gonna happen. like I just started to see.
Jason M. Craig (10:47.661)
Yeah.
Marcellino (10:55.905)
all of these efforts and initiatives that we had supported with our agency, that I'd done, going nowhere, being fruitless. And then I looked at what was bearing fruit and it was all of these like super small, intimate, highly connected communities. was a group of Catholic families in Irving who were doing things like
playing rugby and putting on...
different parties and events around the Catholic calendar and starting schools. It was these like very gritty, hardworking things that were really just like about building relationships. I think, I don't know if last time I told you,
Jason M. Craig (11:49.11)
Yeah. The Yeah, I think well you were talking you you told me about the men that stopped the casino, you know. I know some of these men personally. I just I want to defend you really quick and give you if anybody if anybody winced, because we have been browbeat so bad. Missionary disciples, evangelical, be ev evangelism, evangelism, evangelism.
Marcellino (11:55.671)
Yeah.
Marcellino (12:09.751)
Right, right.
Jason M. Craig (12:14.571)
I'll send it to you, but if anybody wants to look for a biblical defense, if they're thinking Marcelino just sp spouted heresy, it's again is I wrote in the last issue of Sword and Spade was called Breaking the Evangelical Spell. and it's and it's essentially a defense of the layman. And I just want to point out that in scripture the the commission, right? The great commission and the the go forth to all the nations is explicitly written to the clergy. It is.
Marcellino (12:27.331)
That's so good, yeah.
Marcellino (12:31.364)
Yeah.
Marcellino (12:42.477)
Yeah.
Jason M. Craig (12:43.359)
And the way that we know that is listen to the tone and the directives of the rest of the New Testament, the clergy writing to the layman. Their job is to build, protect, guard. They're act they're they're quasi-insular. And I won't go into it, but it's I'll send you this article. But my my proposal is that we have to s the layman has to shift his understanding so that he can disburden his conscience from not being evangelical to realizing that his primary
the the pride primary lay virtue that in a sense is evangelical is actually hospitality, is is more monastic, where he builds the walls, protects, but then opens the door, right? Because if you don't build a wall, you can't open the door, right? There's no door if there's no wall. So what laymen can do is to build th the culture that actually is worth protecting and that has thresholds of entry. Because if there's if we're just all spilling out everywhere.
Marcellino (13:20.462)
Yeah.
Marcellino (13:35.982)
Yes.
Marcellino (13:40.227)
Right.
Jason M. Craig (13:43.244)
Right, in a constant sort of it's I wouldn't even call it a network. It's more of a a pyramid scheme, right? If that's how we view the gospel spreading is well, I'll disciple three and they'll disciple three and they'll disciple three. You know, we there's a lot of people that propose that and I I know that there's a certain value to that, but it actually isn't our primary vocation.
Marcellino (13:49.582)
Yeah.
Marcellino (14:03.107)
Well, what it is, is it's viewing Christianity through an individualistic lens. And that is the evangelicalism that you're advocating for the removal of and the liberal idea that a lot of conservative Catholic people have imbibed, which is like, it's just people.
Jason M. Craig (14:11.65)
Yes.
Marcellino (14:31.411)
need culture, they need something to live within, they need a walled garden. There are people who can somehow buck the trend of the culture and are willing to just completely abandon themselves to to God's providence and cut every tether that they they once had a lot of people's conversion experiences are like that for sure God definitely asks for like a change in
who you're gonna be around. But I think that for the most part, most people just really need community and culture that fosters the gospel. Like the gospel is not this like one and done, two minute thing that you receive and then you make a, you say the prayer and then you're saved, right? Like that is Protestant, not Catholic, and also totally not human.
So anyway, all I say is I think that in realizing that no, the process, if I want my kids to have faith.
They need to be inside of a culture and a community that is going to steward that, that is going to foster it. They need to see it lived. need to, it needs to not just be a Sunday thing. It needs to be like, this is how we do night prayer. This is how we do, I don't know, everything in our life needs to be completely saturated with Christ. How do you get that? That's the question. How do you get there, right?
Jason M. Craig (16:11.105)
Yeah. Well I think that that mind shift that you just or the mate, I'm sorry, mindset shift. Parents really need to hear that because they they think in terms you know, parenting has been turned it has has been turned into expertise, right? You have to manipulate the variables to to kid max or whatever we can call it to give like the and research continues to show that actually parents have
Marcellino (16:25.688)
Yeah.
Jason M. Craig (16:36.833)
I want to be careful here. They actually have pretty limited, or it's not limited, it's it's very important, it's foundational. But when you narrow your scope and and you think that you are in control, you actually are not recognizing the importance of the culture around your kid, right? This is why two kids raised in the same home can with the same parents are are totally different, right? And it's so when we shift to thinking about not as edu education the form of checking the boxes and maximizing the potential of our kids, but
Marcellino (16:50.862)
Yeah.
Jason M. Craig (17:06.483)
Initiating them into our culture. So it's not, it's not information, it's initiation. When we're bringing them into our culture, then we boom, when you do that as a parent, you have kids, you realize my primary job is not to give them all the right ingredients. It's for me to have a culture that they can enter into. It's so what do you think? What's the how do how do men do that? What where have you seen it? What are you thinking?
Marcellino (17:26.316)
Yes, that's right.
Marcellino (17:34.029)
So I think that let's talk about men and women's roles in that for a second here, because those are also different roles, which I'm sure you could probably speak to this even more eloquently than I could. But as we have blended the role of the lady and the religious, we've also blended the role of the man and the woman.
Hey.
Part of what is necessary for building culture is a missional building, which is not what women are built to do. They're not built to go out and carve out new territory for the community or setting the walls or the boundaries around it. Men really need to be doing that. and maybe you wanna riff on that for a second. I think you probably should.
Jason M. Craig (18:32.897)
Well, I think that's well no, no, I'm interviewing you. No, I I I have witnessed I mean definitely in the church. I too am a repentant youth former youth director. and the w if if the church has blended or the the you know, clergy and the religious on the local practical level, women are very much running you know, women and celibate clergy are running the the church.
Marcellino (18:43.276)
Hahaha!
Marcellino (19:01.132)
Yeah.
Jason M. Craig (19:03.321)
and the men actually, when you say get involved with your church, do you know why they don't want to do it? Because it's it's actually just volunteer for my program. That's really what you want from me. I mean, outside, I mean the knights actually do some pretty cool stuff. People like all they do is, you throw parties. I'm like, well, that's a cool job. But Catholic men do not see themselves as building anything related to the church. They see themselves
Marcellino (19:13.334)
Right. Yeah.
Marcellino (19:21.293)
Yeah.
Marcellino (19:26.466)
Yeah.
Jason M. Craig (19:28.873)
as as a you know as a place of devotion, but they don't see their connection with one another as and maybe you could I want to ask you about this. They don't see their connection if you were to say a man's network, a lot of men will think professionally, right? They're going to LinkedIn. They're thinking LinkedIn. tell me why we need to think about our parish in that way.
Marcellino (19:40.748)
Yeah. Yeah.
Marcellino (19:46.904)
Well, maybe, I don't know if I would say that we need to think about our parish that way.
Jason M. Craig (19:50.304)
wait, no. Hold on. Wait, I'm sorry. Okay, then you can you can correct me if I'm wrong, but we the the blending of men and women, yeah, that that is where yeah, you if you w if you want to keep going on that too, the Yeah, okay, th th we'll just keep going. Cut
Marcellino (20:03.095)
Yeah.
Yeah, all right. So we have, I think that we also need to accept something here that Catholic culture has been more or less abandoned and doesn't exist in most places. It just there's nothing there. There's almost nothing there. And even in the places that are far, you know, much further along, like I'm from Dallas, there's a really strong Catholic community. We're probably a couple of generations ahead of maybe
an average random town, there's still such a, such a dearth. There's so much work that it takes every family to try and like create Catholic culture for themselves. It's
So, Catholic culture doesn't exist for the most part. Who's gonna build that? That's the question. And how does it get built? Well, women can to some extent do some of that in the home, but...
They can't do the building of the thing that is going to connect the families together. They're not going to have a vision for it. They're not going to know what to, like, that has to be men. Men are the builders. They are the ones who are going to go out and stake the claim to whatever that new thing is. And so even some things that would seem like it would be a woman's role, like planning the party, I think that is something that a group of men need to get together
Marcellino (21:38.827)
and say we are going to throw like the St. Lawrence barbecue on St. Lawrence Day and we're going to make that like just every year this is going to be the thing that people are looking forward to coming to. I'm not saying that's enough but like it literally has to start at such a small scale as that. What can you actually control? You need do it together with other dudes who also like want to see the same thing happen. So yeah that's my
Yeah.
Jason M. Craig (22:09.367)
Well, that's interesting that you said the f your first idea is actually an act of hospitality, right? It's an act of and if anyone's thinking that's not great, actually the the Christian's first response to reality is joy, right? So that's why we have feasts. the church commands feasts that you do something. And we're supposed to be hospitable. It is absolutely I I'm amazed, you know, we just have a Friday night music thing at our house. We just
Marcellino (22:16.909)
Yeah.
Marcellino (22:38.167)
Hmm.
Jason M. Craig (22:38.303)
Actually it's it started actually for just we had Catholic neighbors. I'm like, we need to see each other on purpose a lot. So, you know, it's like started bringing them over and then before you know it, there's it becomes a thing that people can you can invite to. So the fraternist man out there listening, you know, we have you can join fraternists as an individual, right? You just join and you get our stuff, you get our materials. But over and over over we we will declare to you, you're doing it wrong until you're doing it with other men. And that actually just starts in the backyard. Like get around a fire, cook something.
Marcellino (23:05.752)
Yep.
Jason M. Craig (23:07.361)
And if anyone thinks that well, we need to be like doing a it's good to like do your Bible studies, read your books, but I find men really enjoy just some time to be men. just enjoy each other's for actually just to be able to start building the fraternity. A lot of them they don't even know each other.
Marcellino (23:24.29)
Yeah. So there are also things like cleaning up an area of the highway that you could do.
You could, there are a lot of different ways that you can, you can begin marshaling men together. An example of one group in Dallas that's really interesting is the 75 Club. Somebody pays for drinks. Some dude gets up and gives like a short talk about something.
They meet at a bar, they hang out. And then one of the coolest parts about it though is that for every guy who's in it who has a new baby, one of the men in it, name's Henry Laurent, amazing dude, he...
asks the entire group chat to send him a Venmo of like 10, 20, 30 bucks. And he goes out and buys whiskey, really nice whiskey or nice tequila, whatever, and brings it to that new father's house. And this is just, it's like such a small act of generosity and facilitation that makes a huge difference. We need layers and layers.
and layers and layers of that to build this sort of cohesive community and culture that kids can be raised in that will keep them Catholic, that will make them holier than we were.
Jason M. Craig (24:54.689)
Yeah. So how how do you see this? It's this is again an un a lot of men, you know, when you say go get involved to your parish, they're like, I don't want to volunteer for the core team of Blink. but you're describing something. How do you see that? This is very different from what you were doing as a youth guy. so does this kind of thing should we just you know, Trey Bailey, our mutual friend, he calls it the Robin Hood option. He's like somehow you just gotta like you resp like because the Robin Hood guys, they respect the church.
Marcellino (25:05.378)
Yeah, I don't
Marcellino (25:12.326)
yeah.
Marcellino (25:18.828)
Yeah.
Jason M. Craig (25:23.649)
They they love society, but both of them are a mess. So they just band together as men, they go out into the woods, they they live, they live, they do what needs to be done, and they live joyfully as brothers. So describe like you're not describing starting parish programs, but you're also d but you're also, you know, we recognize that we want to be careful here because people might hear that as like, I don't care about ecclesial structure or communion or anything like that. but I think maybe men are just ham or do you think men are just
Marcellino (25:38.69)
No.
Jason M. Craig (25:52.001)
hamstrung and their imagination.
Marcellino (25:52.184)
Well, I yeah, I think you just gotta go back to like, what is the church supposed to be doing? What is the lay vocation? What are these two things? The lay vocation said very simply, make love, make war, make babies.
Jason M. Craig (26:09.207)
Yeah.
Marcellino (26:12.193)
Build civilization, that's what your job is. So like your job is not to go and start RCIA and teach people about the faith. Maybe that's a fun thing that you could use as a kind of cover for building this stuff. But like for the most part, the church just.
has never seen itself as like the place for Christian civilization to be built. The monasteries, that's like they did that to some extent, but even then, like the lady were around the monastery doing the thing. They weren't in the monastery, you know? So I think that it's just a, it's a shift in perspective that.
Jason M. Craig (26:50.54)
Mm-hmm.
Marcellino (26:58.285)
The thing that really, like what is Catholicism? What is it? Is it a set of principles that you adhere to? I believe all of the things the church teaches, therefore I'm Catholic, but I don't go to mass and I don't really like, I don't ever pray. Is that it? Is it like?
I think to some extent maybe Catholics have thought that because it's really easy and safe to do apologetics online. But I don't think that ever converted, maybe it's converted a couple people, but what really converts people is, hey, this community and culture is radically different from anything that I've seen. I see love here, I feel love here, I want to belong to that.
So how do you create that? That's what Catholic men need to be asking themselves. They need to be doing it together.
Jason M. Craig (27:52.405)
Yeah. And you're are you are you married with kids? I feel like okay. How old are your kids?
Marcellino (27:55.031)
Yeah.
I have a six-year-old and a one-year-old and one on the way.
Jason M. Craig (28:01.037)
That's right. I remember that last time. Congratulations. getting that making love part down. That's good. I also, I mean, in in that, I cause I think pe somebody might say, Well, actually, there was a ton of converts thanks to like Jordan Peterson videos and YouTube. And I'm like, I and people come to me and they go, Hey, aren't you excited? It's young men, they're coming in the church, isn't this great? And a lot of part of me is like, No, I'm not excited. Here's why. as a c as Catholics.
Marcellino (28:06.836)
Hahaha
Marcellino (28:25.921)
Hmm.
Jason M. Craig (28:30.923)
Or I'm sorry, I rejoice and I am excited at the return of anyone to Christ. I am happy. Here's my fear is that the problem in the church is not evangelization. We are not shrinking because we are not growing. That is a that's a false people will say that, you know, a church, it's like the Dead Sea. If it's not flowing out, nothing's flowing in, or or if you're you're dead, you know, you're not chosen if you're frozen, you know, like
Marcellino (28:42.295)
Yeah.
Marcellino (28:48.04)
Hahaha
Jason M. Craig (28:58.101)
All these things that like if you're not growing actively, constantly expanding, then you're shrinking. That's not true. Retention is our biggest issue in the church in the United States ac actually in the West, which is we're not retaining our children. So I do have a fear these guys coming in and we don't have a shared way of life, a shared culture with them. And we actually let 'cause you know, fifty percent of roughly fifty percent of people that go through RCIA or OCIA, whatever it is, they fall out within a within a year.
Marcellino (29:07.17)
Yes.
Jason M. Craig (29:27.093)
And in my parish, we had one of these giant, you know, explosions of converts come in last year, like a lot of people experienced. And I met with my pastor, they're already trickling away. So it's you have to have a thick retaining a culture that retains because it's it is your source of belonging, or you're gonna go somewhere else.
Marcellino (29:41.921)
Yes.
Marcellino (29:45.729)
Yeah, marketing is sexy.
Jason M. Craig (29:49.249)
Ha ha ha.
Marcellino (29:49.74)
Yeah, marketing is super sexy. So we got hired to do that, right? We've been hired by the church to do that. But you know what is not sexy? Like stopping the bleed. But that's actually what matters in business. And it's what matters in faith too. Like churn, if you can fix churn, your business is gonna be amazing if you're a tech startup, right? Like SaaS.
Jason M. Craig (30:01.458)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Jason M. Craig (30:14.871)
Yeah. Yeah.
Marcellino (30:16.641)
Fixing churn, that is the thing. That means like, and here's the thing, nobody wants to fix that because it means that you haven't hit product market fit. So I'm using business terminology here, but I think that it applies very effectively to what our ailments in the church really are, which is that the reason why people are leaving is because we don't have product market fit.
People do not want what we are selling. If you fix that,
Jason M. Craig (30:48.801)
Hm. Have you heard a cler have you heard a churchman like admit that and say, Yes, let's do something? 'Cause yeah Yeah. I
Marcellino (30:56.237)
Hell no, dude. That's like, this is the big secret in every single Catholic apostolate, all of them. You know who is like the defining person for every single Catholic organization that like you gotta keep happy? 65 year old women. EWTN, Hail Hallow, the new cool thing. Ascension Prep, every single one of these things.
65 year old woman is the power user, power purchaser of the thing. They're the donor. They are all going away 20 years from now. Gone. So I guess like the reason why I bring that up is we have product market fit for them, I guess, you know, but for no one else.
Jason M. Craig (31:37.453)
Hm.
Jason M. Craig (31:47.308)
Yeah.
Marcellino (31:49.514)
zero other people, no other demographics do we have product market fit for as a church. But no one wants to talk about that because you would have to change substantial things.
Jason M. Craig (31:54.774)
Mm-hmm.
Jason M. Craig (31:58.701)
Yeah.
Jason M. Craig (32:02.699)
Well, I also think you would have to admit fault and error in ways that require such human because I as a father, you know what's really hard as a father to say I was wrong. It's actually really hard. Your kids get older, you wait till your kids are old. It's just and even if we're praying and we know humili, I've read humility of heart. I've read the books, I know that it's just hard to say. And for us to admit the problem of retention that we have in the church right now.
Marcellino (32:08.033)
Yes.
Jason M. Craig (32:30.071)
for a for a for a churchman to actually admit that requires such coura the o courage, the only place I ever saw it, I actually one of the humblest things I've ever read from well Pope was Joseph or Pope Benedict's op h the letter, the the introductory letter that went with Samoa pontificum, when he said, basically, I was one of the people excited about what we were doing.
But this letter basically admits he's like, I was one of them. Like this, it was exciting. It was an exhilarating time. But man, it didn't go well. Like that's basically what this letter says, you know, regarding the liturgy. For that I think our church right now, there is what I the I call the the catechetical industrial complex, this giant network of curriculums and DREs and and the companies that support them and hymnal printers and and liturgical resources and outfitters and dioceses.
Marcellino (33:03.884)
Yeah.
Marcellino (33:07.841)
Yeah.
Jason M. Craig (33:26.093)
That are contracted with these people to fulfill these needs and like there's a big thing. Sixty and they're all they're all tooled to that. I can tell you fraternist ain't tooled for that, but we please Lord help us.
Marcellino (33:29.997)
65 year old women, Every single thing.
Marcellino (33:38.605)
Yeah, which is probably why parishes have been a rough, rough go.
Jason M. Craig (33:45.334)
Yeah. Well, I I it's amazing what happens. it is very sad. This this year we had another chapter, a group of men, it's like a hundred and thirty of men men and boys. And new pastor, new DRE came in and they got rid of And it was such an eye opening moment that these men actually think they need permission to continue to be brothers. So they don't need permission. But that the catechat the catechetical indust industrial complex
Marcellino (34:10.795)
Yeah. No.
Jason M. Craig (34:14.997)
Wanted to fit them into their comprehensive youth strategy, you know, based on these documents from the USDC. It's just men that live somewhere and have affection for a place and they have generational care for a place do so much better of a job think well, if they do, if if they're not thinking generationally, they're making a mistake. But when they start thinking generationally, they're so much better than the ringer Stupanville grad coming in to be the DRE or the youth director. They they
Marcellino (34:19.145)
Right, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marcellino (34:43.873)
thousand percent.
Jason M. Craig (34:44.961)
They will build if we let them build it. Yeah, yeah. So okay.
Marcellino (34:49.525)
Right. mean, when you were a kid, right, like, who did you want to be like? Right. Like you wanted to be a part of the older kids, especially the older dudes who were hanging out. They were really cool to you, right? Like you wanted to be a part of that bike gang of guys. Same thing is true. Still, that is human nature. So like build the bike gang.
Jason M. Craig (35:13.345)
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
Marcellino (35:19.531)
and then people are gonna wanna join it. But if you don't have that, no single well-educated.
Christendom grad or whatever student will grad can start that that has to be there that has to be there So or I mean I've seen it happen like I've seen guys start these things, but they rarely ever are just Some part of a parish program. I've never seen it work as a parish program or institutional program of any kind I've seen it work great as like we start there and we come out of it and we like pull people into these other things that are
Jason M. Craig (35:43.053)
Mm-hmm.
Marcellino (35:57.131)
just lay light initiatives.
Jason M. Craig (35:59.362)
Yeah. Well, I've actually seen it. So I'll I'll say I have seen it work in fraternists. But like I said, the problem with the Paris program is that, or you know, well one, you want because I would argue that we want to institutionalize these fraternities. So you build small, you get bigger, and then you institutionalize it because then, for example, a fraternist squad meeting in a backyard, that's great. But you're probably not going to reach the fatherless. But if you institutionalize it, you just gain better leverage. But
Marcellino (36:14.241)
Yeah.
Jason M. Craig (36:27.585)
This is where I think I have seen where it where the Paris program becomes something different. And I would liken it to there's a book, I reference it all the time. It's called The Art of Subsidiarity. It's medieval guilds. And one of the things he points out, points out is that the power that the men who are the ones that preserve and protect the place, so these these guilds, they actually, even in the in the Middle Ages, in the height of Christendom, gained power.
And authority over the clergy. Now, I want to be really careful. They didn't subvert the roles, but they served as a sort of lay intermediary body of men because they actually now I know, I know like that example of the parish program of the fraternity chapter getting kicked out. We could fight it by canon law because laymen have a right to associate without nope, you can't because there's a false sense of.
authority that a lot of people get and even the DREs will get Well they'll like I know a pastor recent he told this group of women to stop meeting because the deacon's wife was having her own women's group and it was compete. It's like, no, okay, shut shut up. Now they actually had we could fight that. You have rights against that. They cannot tell you there is, you know, I like to you're you don't need your bishop's permission to go camping, right? but these men in these chapters, what they've gained, one, they've gained reputation.
Marcellino (37:34.762)
Yup. Classic dude. Classic parish crap.
Jason M. Craig (37:53.608)
and they've gained leverage to where if they were now God willing, they remain in total peace with like church authorities, but if there was tension, they actually have enough leverage to say, No, you will not tell us that we will not go camping, right? Because
Marcellino (38:07.584)
Well, that's already happening, right? Like, lay people have tremendous authority and influence. It's just not you. It's like...
Jason M. Craig (38:19.915)
It's the catechetical industrial complex, sixty five year old women. Is that what you're telling me? Yes.
Marcellino (38:24.362)
Yeah. Yeah. So, and then, yeah, go.
Jason M. Craig (38:28.823)
But it but y but you don't think the answer is for men to go be 'cause go be parish staff 'cause
Marcellino (38:33.42)
No, kids like that, that makes, now you are underneath the peri- you know, the catechetical industrial complex, as you like to call it. Your job is now to fulfill the wishes of the Pastoral Council, the USCCB, like all of these layers of intermediary, like, bureaucratic BS.
It's almost impossible to be effective in those kinds of situations. And at the same time, you're doing it for $50,000, you're never gonna be able to to take care of your kids effectively, you're gonna be burned out because you're, I don't know, pair staff are worked like absolutely insane hours.
So yeah, where's the time for you to build your actual vocation? Where's the financial resources to build your actual vocation? And then when a new pastor comes in and you get cut, or you do something that's actually great, and some bureaucrat in the diocese wants to get rid of it because it's upstaging them.
Now you have nothing on your resume that's gonna help you move forward. So I think that is like the absolute worst thing that you can do as a young man is like go into parish or evangelization or apostolate ministry. You need to get on the path to make get building resources that you can then deploy to support other men and other initiatives that are actually doing the job of building Christendom. So that's my.
Jason M. Craig (40:07.563)
I cannot, I cannot second that enough. I have never yeah, every man, because this happens to a lot of men. It happened to me. You have genuine zeal for the Lord. You want to save souls, be a part of that. Maybe you're now I will say this too. there's a great book called I can't remember the name of it. Basically, the thesis is narcissists are hugely attracted to ministry jobs. So you need to be careful of that. and yeah, I have encountered I encountered
Marcellino (40:15.946)
Yeah.
Marcellino (40:30.602)
Yes.
Jason M. Craig (40:37.009)
you know, narcissistic, powerful women within diocese. They can really, it's amazing what they can do. it's horrifying actually. But no, as a Catholic man, it does not make you more Catholic to go work for an apostolate, to go full time with your apologetics blog to I know there are people for whom I I work with for a full time Catholic apostle. I have for a long time. But I worked in that might be more possible.
Marcellino (40:40.971)
Yep.
Jason M. Craig (41:06.219)
But working in a parish job or diocesan job is going to end at some point with you going, This is it's not possible to be a professional in this atmosphere. Now, I will there is a an exception. I would say higher level diocesan management, accounting, legal, those kind of things. That's actually probably pretty helpful.
Marcellino (41:23.05)
Yeah. But those guys, they don't get hired from inside the church. You don't get that because you are a youth minister. You get that because you are effect. Yeah.
Jason M. Craig (41:31.777)
Yeah. You're a good accountant. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. 'Cause you're a professional. So be a professional. If you want to serve the church, be a be a layman, be a professional.
Marcellino (41:40.94)
Yeah. And this is also a really unfortunate reality. As a Catholic man, status actually, layman, status actually matters a lot. It's just the reality of how the world works. And by taking on a, I learned this the hard way. I was like, I don't care what the world says, I'm gonna do whatever it takes to help build the kingdom. Went and got a job as a youth minister, did all of the things to build.
you know, did ministry in college as an intern. What did that do for me as a man now looking back 10 years later? Well, it lowered my status significantly so that I couldn't get roles elsewhere because it's seen as like, wow, you must not be able to actually function in the real world. So you got the like junior varsity C team jersey, you know, that's how it's perceived. And there's not anything that you're going to be able to do to change that. Sorry.
Jason M. Craig (42:27.201)
Yeah.
Marcellino (42:38.025)
So like, just influence, lay influence exists, but you have to build it. So yeah.
Jason M. Craig (42:50.583)
So all right, tell us tell us what you mean by status and why and how that doesn't grate on our need to be humble.
Marcellino (42:58.123)
Man, I'm still trying to work this one out for myself. So yeah, in all humility, this has been a really hard one for me. But like a lot of like hard lessons learned, I guess, with this. But just that the way that human beings make really most decisions is...
Jason M. Craig (43:01.825)
Ha ha ha ha.
Marcellino (43:19.881)
does this give me higher status within the community that I'm a part of, or does it lower my status within the community that I'm a part of? Almost every human interaction has that element to it. Purchases, relationships. So when you look at things like,
your resume builders. Most of these things actually are complete trash and are not meaningful at all. But they have status signals attached to them. And that's really what universities or these kinds of credentialing systems are selling, is higher status markers. So I got an MBA from Harvard. Awesome.
Jason M. Craig (44:00.749)
Yeah.
Marcellino (44:04.413)
I know lots of guys who got MBAs from Harvard who are not actually very sophisticated business people. like it's, that stuff, go ahead.
Jason M. Craig (44:14.733)
Could I propose that maybe we could propose a different word then? because Aquinas uses the word honor. and the I think the false sense of status would be vainglory, right? Which is a sin again, and vainglory is where you're actually doing the th so an example would be the soldier who has regalia. I'm sorry, his medals that he wears. He wears the medals because he has done something worth.
Marcellino (44:27.616)
Yeah.
Jason M. Craig (44:44.619)
rewarding and the purpose for the medal is actually public. It signals to the public that this is an honorable thing. And you should we're honoring it in this way. So actually the medals are not for him. They're for them to to for a public display of virtue. So that's how we honor them. And vainglory would be trying to skip the acts of honor so that I can have the signals. This is like this whole virtue signaling thing. I can have the signals of of honor without honor. That's called vainglory. So I would argue that
We do have to be very careful because the the sen envy, mimetic desires, you know, these things that can contort. We're actually not w we're going after the signals without the growth. 'Cause we we men, especially if we're young, like we want to skip the time it takes to actually gain wisdom and and it's like I don't I don't wanna I you know what, I would love to have abs. but I just don't wanna do any of the work in between. So, shoot me up, doctor. Give me some Ozempic. But
Marcellino (45:29.876)
Yeah.
Marcellino (45:42.132)
I think that's right. And within a properly ordered society, you wouldn't just be able to get status markers without having done the work. However, we live in a society where everything is basically anonymous and there's no such thing as honor for the most part.
You only really have honor within a community, a small community that knows each other over the course of time. In an anonymous, individualized community, all you have is like whatever the institution told you that you are, you know. It's...
Jason M. Craig (46:18.123)
Yeah, that's interesting because that becomes the job, I think. That's the it is the job again of the local fraternity of men. We define what is honorable and then we honor them again with a public act. Right? We are the ones that we will define it and then we will honor it when we see it. And when you meet that, because then if you don't have that, well I mean, of course we're gonna get online and look for clicks and likes and impressions. When you actually when you don't have men around you that you who's
Marcellino (46:24.063)
Yes.
Marcellino (46:28.425)
Yes, yes.
Marcellino (46:43.242)
Right.
Jason M. Craig (46:46.889)
opinion of you you care about, you could do all sorts of terrible shit, you know. excuse me. You got me fired up there. so yeah, I would I'd say that well, why can't we define these status and honor and humility as well? That's also the the men need to keep that themselves as well.
Marcellino (46:51.401)
Right.
Marcellino (47:05.331)
Right, yeah, have like part of what culture really creating culture is, is determining what that honor system is going to look like. If you study it.
study a tribe. So I did a lot of like anthropology research as I was trying to understand what like I described at the beginning of this conversation. I looked into like sociology and anthropology to try to like figure out who studied religion, what have they said about it, what have they said about like the process of building culture, changing, you know, what can we learn there? And yeah, I mean basically the way that tribes work is
more or less what you've articulated in your book. Like there's, there is a right of initiation, but that has to come after some sort of like being outcast oftentimes. Like there's a lot of men's group or men in these tribes who like take the young boys out of the village for a serious amount of time, years sometimes. And
That is because there has to be a sort of like severing with the previous culture and they need to be introduced to a new honor system. The initiation rite is oftentimes about conveying honor upon a man for submitting to that honor system and doing something that is like profoundly honorable. So.
I guess all that to say is like.
Marcellino (48:51.145)
The process of becoming a part of a new tribe is the process of adopting a new honor, set of honor rules and shame rules. And that can be either incredibly healthy or incredibly unhealthy, right? Like gang culture is kind of like that. You have to do something atrocious and horrifying to meet the quote unquote honor system of the gang. But that's human nature.
Jason M. Craig (48:59.531)
Hmm. Hmm.
Jason M. Craig (49:15.884)
Mm-hmm.
Marcellino (49:21.043)
we are governed by this sort of desire to negotiate this sort of status hierarchy that we're in. So we have to do that in a way that's healthy.
Jason M. Craig (49:30.049)
Yeah, maybe. Yeah. Yeah. Cause what you're describing, it's helping me even see it's not I think this this the tension of what we hear when we hear status is detached from relationships and responsibility. It's actually just it's fighting for, you know, slices of the pie. Whereas
Marcellino (49:45.792)
Yeah.
Jason M. Craig (49:50.762)
Anthropologically speaking, the way tribes work is they provide the structure and the hierarchy so that you can ascend. And really it's actually more inclusive because when you have a fatherly look, you're not going to let someone not be have status. You are going to bring them to the status. You're going to bring them to the place of honor because that's who they really are. They're one of you. That's that is their identity. So it's it's not as if you're giving them markers to rise above their peers.
Marcellino (49:57.13)
Yes. Right.
Marcellino (50:04.597)
Yeah.
Marcellino (50:11.869)
Right. Right.
Jason M. Craig (50:20.075)
which is the way the world wants to use it, you're actually giving them markers to rise and ascend to higher levels of belonging and fraternity with the men.
Marcellino (50:27.071)
Yes. Well, if it's done, if it's positive, if it's healthy, right, that's that's what it's supposed to do is this whole kind of like
modern egalitarianism, when you just like look at human nature and look at the studies around like how people make decisions, it's just so false. Like hierarchy is literally embedded in every single decision that we're making. It's how we are built to function and think. So that can either be great or it can be awful. So we got to decide as men if we want what that's going to be for our families and for our kids. Or we can let the culture decide what that is and then
fight against it with one hour a week catechesis. Those are your options.
Jason M. Craig (51:12.385)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that's our full strategy, right? Yeah. No, I I and it's also I I just I commend you for for I mean we're not I'm we're not that much different in age, but I've got adolescent kids entering adulthood, you got young kids. I wish I would have known how important, you know, your local fraternity is. 'cause I remember I remember the article went around, we actually share it sometimes, why your men's group will eventually fail and
it's actually a young He's talking about, you know, you're gonna have a bunch of dads, you're gonna get together, but then you're gonna have kids, you're gonna be busy, you you do exodus like three times, and you're gonna and it and it just falls apart. and I think I as I read that, it was like I've well, I've I've seen else otherwise, and I think the problem is our egalitarianism, our our liberalism. We don't realize we need to commit in responsibility to one another and just recognize that like actually it's not this isn't a men's group. This is a fraternity that exists and we have
Marcellino (52:03.784)
Yes.
Jason M. Craig (52:11.167)
And instead of thinking about it as voluntary social co religionist groups, this is actually your responsibility. Your your burden to carry. This is one of
Marcellino (52:15.646)
Right.
Yeah.
Marcellino (52:22.951)
And it's also like...
Man, if you just look at the institutions and trace them back to like where they started, most of the institutions in our world that we think are like these crazy big things now, they started with a group of men in a room together, committing their lives and their mutual honor to getting the thing done. Real stakes, real risk.
mission, building something big. That's how almost everything started. That's how our country started.
Jason M. Craig (53:00.023)
Yeah.
Jason M. Craig (53:04.877)
All right. I have a I have a all right, then I have a you've already given us an hour. I'm so grateful for w we could just riff and talk all the time. This is great. I'd like to then ask you a parting question, which is so you know, you're a young guy that has like gone
full force in recognizing the importance of this. I mean that is but you're you you s you recognize what you're doing right now, which is so refreshing, which is building something that doesn't exist. Right? That's 'cause a lot of people you can feel cause the accusation from the enemy and from naysayers and cynics is like, you don't, you know, you don't know what you're talking about. Basically, why did you know it's it's I think you called it black pilled in your and there
Marcellino (53:52.895)
Yeah, I think really it's just like, really like, this seems so hard and so un- like, so un- rewarding work. And this is like starting, it's like trying to squeeze water, you know, in a dry sponge or like, dig a hole.
in the desert with like a tiny little shovel. That's what it feels like. It feels like so overwhelming. You mean to tell me that like, instead of hoping for the next 10 years, I need to start hoping and working for 100 years from now and accept that it's gonna suck for the most part. Like that's actually more of what, and so then I don't wanna do it. That's the temptation.
Jason M. Craig (54:42.167)
So my question was gonna be, what are you gonna tell a young man who feels that way?
Marcellino (54:46.682)
Marcellino (54:57.95)
Yeah, I think.
I'm still struggling with this myself. It feels like what I just said, to do the things that I know I need to do to just host a group of men. That's what I have to do to like save Western civilization, you know? that's, yes, yeah, that is it. You can either do that or do nothing. Which one do you wanna do?
Jason M. Craig (55:22.365)
Ha.
Marcellino (55:32.318)
You gotta do what is it within your power. And I think that taking action, even small action, what's the smallest action that you can take toward this mission? Is it giving a friend a phone call? If that's as small as you gotta make it, do it. But yeah, you gotta just start doing it.
Jason M. Craig (55:55.98)
Yeah. All right, can I give you some encouragement then? 'Cause you're the young guy who just looked in the camera. I I don't know why it's just 'cause your kids are younger than mine it makes Trey says I do this to him all the time. He's like, Jason, you're three years older than me. I'm like, Yeah, but my kids are
Marcellino (56:00.299)
Dude, I'm not that young.
Marcellino (56:05.456)
Yeah.
I mean it is a lot of life. You've lived more life than me for sure.
Jason M. Craig (56:15.761)
well my my encouragement is I remember it's felt that way and as your kid is actually when when life becomes generational, meaning, you know, I'm like there's three generations around me right now and there's i it's it all this like when culture is built, it
By definition, it becomes less of a fight. You just get to enjoy it more because you're not it's sort of like when you build a house. Like I've built my house and when I got done, I was so tired of building a house. I'm so sick of it. I don't wanna I don't wanna put up another board. I don't wanna paint any like I I don't wanna do anything, which is why there's still rooms without like trim. 'cause I'm like I'm done. But the reward of building something is that then you get to sleep in it, you know? And like and men, there there there is a time and it's wonderful.
Marcellino (56:36.766)
Yes.
Marcellino (56:54.026)
you
Marcellino (57:00.253)
Yeah.
Jason M. Craig (57:04.41)
all right, so if we want to get a hold of Marcelino, where should we go?
Marcellino (57:11.378)
Yeah, so you can follow me on X, Marcelino posts. You can also follow Chris and quarterly on X and sub stack. I also do marketing work. So if I've sufficiently convinced you that marketing is bullshit.
Jason M. Craig (57:30.316)
Ha ha.
Marcellino (57:30.698)
I don't know. It's not. Actually, this is marketing. Marketing is like thinking about the bigger picture, not just like throwing ads at people who don't want your thing. But yeah, if you need marketing help, Sherwood Fellows, we would love to support you. So yeah, those are the places to go.
Jason M. Craig (57:40.587)
Yep. Yeah.
Jason M. Craig (57:48.971)
All right. Thanks, Marshallino. If you enjoyed this podcast and you want to be a part of the men that are actually building something, and don't you remember that little the image of the shovel in the desert? We've always proposed in sword and spade, those are the two main tools of men. You're either defending something or you're building something. So the sword and the spade. If you want a spade, if you want a more of a spade, come join us as a fraternist brother. You can do it as an individual, but we will pressure you to get other guys together and
hopefully build stuff like what Marcelino is building. Marcelino, thank you for being on the Sword and Spade podcast.
Marcellino (58:20.234)
Appreciate it. All right, bye.
