Best Plot Twist

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Welcome to Superlatives, the show where comics go head to head.
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Every episode we pick a superlative theme.
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This week it's best comic plot twist.
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Two of our editors each nominate a comic they think deserves the title, then step into the ring to make their case.
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When the arguments are done, our moderator, in this case me, delivers the final verdict, deciding which comic walks away with this episode's superlative.
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All right, Dave, Ellen, let's start by just telling everyone your name and what comic you brought to the fight this week.
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Hi, my name is Dave Wilgis.
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I am a comic book writer and contract editor here at IDW.
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I picked uh the uh green arrow uh from the 2001 series, uh issue 21, which is the final part of the Archer's Quest storyline by Brad Meltzer, Phil Hester, Andy Parks, Guy Major, and Sean Cannot.
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And hi, I'm Alan Boner.
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I'm an associate editor here at IDW and the games manager here at IDW.
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So I work on things from Toilet's own, Tales of the TMNT, and then also do some new RPG and games products for us.
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And I brought the monolith of comics culture, Watchmen, by Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons.
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All right.
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Before we get into the individual comics of this week, I think it's best to start by talking about what we think makes a good plot twist overall.
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You know, what are the elements of a good plot twist, Dave?
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Let's start with you.
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Uh it sounds really simple to say, but it has to be both shocking and not cheap.
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Like it has to shock you in the moment, but as soon as that shock is over, you're like, yeah, you know what?
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That checks out.
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I completely believe that.
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And that was a lot of the struggle of uh this week was that like comics has a lot of plot twists, and a lot of them are kind of out of desperation to keep a book going where it's like, who is this person's sixth brother?
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And you're like, I don't really care about that stuff, right?
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Uh, and so like for me, I pick I went with my heart, I picked something that was very, a very emotional plot twist, and we'll get into it.
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But like, yeah, you want just something that like it rocks you, and then you're like, yeah, no, I get that.
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That makes a lot of sense to me.
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It's always funny with comics and long-running series where, you know, with the surprising yet inevitable thing, which is what you hear plot twists uh as described of most often, something that surprises you in the moment, but was inevitable the whole time.
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Uh, I like what you're saying about like the sixth brother reveal, right?
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When someone's like, oh, it's this thing we've never heard of.
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We didn't know you had a sibling, so that can't be surprising yet inevitable if the big villain's revealed to be your sibling.
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But a way to counteract that that people do that can also be kind of funny is at the start of a new arc, suddenly we introduce someone's kindly new brother who has been off the table.
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Yeah.
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And it's like, oh, I wonder if I wonder, it's a new villain and a new friend are introduced at the same time.
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And it's like, I wonder if these two could be interlined.
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Absolutely.
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And there's stories that like that are like really well done.
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But again, like that to me, it's like, yeah, that's why I like I really stored away from those, perhaps to my detriment as we'll go through this episode.
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Um, but yeah, it's again to me, it's like it has to be shocking, but it has to feel it has to feel right.
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Yeah, shock is easy.
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Making that something making that part of the story that feels inevitable and like it was always gonna be the case is is really hard.
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Yeah, I completely agree.
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I think a lot of people where they'll go wrong with the plot twist when they're putting things together is they will just try and think of the most shocking thing that could happen.
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And in a lot of ways, that will sometimes undercut the story they were trying to tell in the first place.
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And it becomes all about trying to make that that twist more and more and more unlikely so that it just sort of the twist sort of falls apart.
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It leaves you going, like, holy, oh my gosh, I can't believe they just did that.
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And then you're like, but what did that mean?
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Like, did it matter that that h I mean it matters in terms of the plot, but what did it inform about the meaning of the story?
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And I think what's really interesting about both of these is I think they both do that pretty well, the where they actually make it make a lot of sense.
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Yeah, I think without these twists, the other thing is like structure, these books both like either uh maybe not fall apart, but certainly like lose a lot of impact.
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You know, I think in both, like they are the final piece that makes you go, oh okay, like this all this all takes on a very different picture now.
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Yeah, it's all a part of the same message or meaning that the writer was trying to and it's the final like perfect little piece on top of the puzzle where they're like, I did it.
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The entire book is still about this big message I was building.
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Yeah, because if you beef it, like that's it.
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I mean, especially in the case of your book, which is a maxi series, so it, you know, at the time it was its own kind of entity.
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Um, where in the case of like my book is part of a long-running superhero universe where you know, if that twist was done poorly, the next issue they could have been like, that didn't happen.
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Or in a couple years, they could be like, that didn't happen.
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We can we can move on and forget about it.
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And that's the other thing.
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Like, so many plot twists and comics have been undone because they didn't fit or they didn't work, or like they worked in a very short-term way, uh, that actually took more away from the character than it gave them, and then they're undone because it's like, oh, actually, that twist like depleted the gas tank of this character's mythology.
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Absolutely.
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I I think that's that's something I'm actually really excited to talk about with these two books is they're so fundamentally different, with one being part of a long, ongoing series and the one a contained story of 12 issues, and how different that makes the playing field for the writer and the artists and the team building the book in terms of executing a twist like this.
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And I think that's a really good point that executing an effective plot twist in an ongoing comic that will eventually leave the writer and artist's hands, and the fact it wasn't undone is such an indication of that it was done correctly.
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Yeah.
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Uh do we have examples, you know, let's leave comics for a second, examples of plot twists and other mediums that we think are maybe a bad or or a plot twist that maybe wasn't as handled as well as it could have been, or that felt uh, well, we couldn't have known that anyway.
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So it doesn't feel like uh surprising or inevitable.
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Yeah, I feel like it happens a lot on long-running television, or it used to happen a lot on long-running television, where uh I believe that there's a there's a term, maybe it's just like a very internet bro term, the the Flanderization of a show or a character where like a character's basic essence or the things that made them interesting suddenly become like deeply exaggerated and like ridiculous.
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And then like that that the even a cartoon character becomes a cartoonish character.
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It's like, oh, like Ned Flanders like used to be like a nice man, and like he's a he believed in God, he was a good foil for Homer Simpson.
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And like it's like 30 years later, it's like, oh, but now he's like a religious zealot and like not a real person anymore.
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Uh and I don't want to crap on the Simpsons because that's also a good white guy internet thing to do.
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Um but uh yeah, I I you know I think about like a show like um just like a lot of long-running soap opera dramas where it's like, oh, like this person's dad turned out to be X character, kind of like what we said before in comics.
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I not only no longer I have no longer cared about the show for such a long time, but now I don't care if this person's dad is this character, that character, whatever.
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Um, I was talking to a friend about the uh the last season of The Wire yesterday, which kind of gets out of control, even though it's the best one of the best TV shows ever, where like one of the cops like like creates a fake serial killer to justify cops getting overtime in Baltimore, and you're like, this has kind of gotten away from us a little bit, you know?
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Yeah, yeah.
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Uh it's crazy.
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Yeah, if something doesn't feel like it's properly built to like if uh a long-running series, a twist in the finale can be tough because it can make everything feel meaningless that you've seen happen so far.
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Yeah.
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So like if the twist is happening at the wrong time, in the timeline of us learning about this information, it can end up just negating a lot of things.
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So let's talk about like the high mature motherfuckers.
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That's the same, which is a twist that they're building to, which like you can see there are ways on paper that that twist is surprising, but also inevitable.
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You know, it answers the question of like, why is Ted telling the story the whole time?
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Why is this happening?
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But you know, against all odds, they had cast an actress as the mother that was so charming and so incredible that after a season of making us all go, you guys landed the plane.
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This is a perfect pick for Ted.
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We can't believe you found someone so perfect that fits the show and the cast so well and really kind of completes the story.
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Can't wait to watch the finale.
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And then uh spoilers for how much mother that we'll wrap up in 60 seconds, if you want to skip ahead.
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Um she dies, and then the big reveal is that this relationship that they certainly were building at the beginning of the show, the first three few seasons, but then maybe stop building for a while.
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That Ted is ultimately going to get with Robin at the end of the show.
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Yeah.
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I think that was, I think to your point, like the biggest problem with that was like you literally could not have found a more perfect person than Kristen Miliati, a more charming, wonderful person who is like every time she does a project, we're like, oh, I love her.
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Put her in every single time.
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It's like we meet her for the first time, whether it's Palm Springs, The Last Season of How I Met Your Mother, the Penguin Show.
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It feels like we always are meeting her for the first time and falling in love with her for the first time.
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And it's like maybe if they cast somebody like 20% not as charming, like maybe it would have worked a little bit better.
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But it's also like you spend a whole season making us love this character and believe that this is the end game, and then within the span of 45 minutes, it's like I think one, I think one of the young characters we're saying is like, Dad, this story's always been about you and Rob.
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And if I was like, if I was hearing a story about like my mom who died, I would be like, Dad, this story's always been about you and another lady.
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And again, I love High Might Your Mother, I love that show.
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I think maybe the the finale is a little bit too uh beaten up, but like it, you know, there is there's definitely stuff to talk about.
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I was actually sorry, just real quick, I was talking to to uh on that point to Jake Thomas earlier about the importance of seeding these plot twists and and how with a show like High Might Your Mother, like you can seed them, but if it's long running enough, you can accidentally uproot them uh before you let them bloom.
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So blooming being the actual plot twist and uprooting them being like, you kind of stop watering those seeds.
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So it's like, yeah, I guess early on it makes sense as a fulfillment of this that would be Robin, but after three seasons, after season four and five and six, it's like it doesn't make sense anymore.
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You uprooted the seeds.
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We don't still like believe in those seeds, they're too far away from where we're currently at.
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And I think as a lot of us were saying at the time, not that this is now a high-meture mother podcast, but like with they really entrenched and solved a whole other relationship with Barney and Robin getting to so they completely walked away from it and like solved a whole different problem that they then had to ruin and they had to undo a bunch of character growth to make it work.
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Which is why IDW is excited to announce licensed High Metric Mother camera box.
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But that's a really interesting point.
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The idea, again, uh to talk about in contrast between these two series, the idea of a planned ending can always it can be a gift or a complication.
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I feel like a lot of these long-running series or TV shows will sometimes have that problem where they know the ending they want from the beginning, and that's the story the writer or creator is really excited to talk about and tell.
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But then the story has evolved so far away from that that they need to have a moment of recognition where it's like that ending I thought was really cool, no longer makes sense.
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I need to kill my darling and come up with something different.
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You don't realize how far a show's gotten away from you.
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I recently uh Busy Phillips, who was on the last couple seasons of um Dawson's Creek, was talking about that show, and she wasn't in the finale, even though she was on the last couple seasons, because the creator of the show had come back to write the finale, and he was like, I didn't create that character, so he didn't put her in the finale, and the finance was like, Where's that character?
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We love her.
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So he had left the show and the show had kind of like changed.
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And when he came back, he was like, Well, I'm gonna do the finale for the show that I wrote, not necessarily the show that you watched.
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And it's like, right, but like that character mattered to people, right?
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You know, and like, yeah, I agree.
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Sometimes like people can be so into their endgame that they don't notice like how the thing they built has evolved, yeah, which is also a struggle.
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All right, let's talk about some comic books.
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So let's start with what is just naturally going to be the underdog of the series.
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When you're talking about Watchmen, you're like a Watchmen, you're gonna have an obvious underdog here, which is Archer's Quest, which is a phenomenal comic in its own right, filled with phenomenal characters and creators.
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And I'm not maybe I'm seeding right now a twist on a twist that it might still yeah, it can still pull out, but uh please talk about Archer Quest, how the what what this means to you, and why this is your pick.
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Obviously, a lot of spoilers in this entire episode.
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All spoilers.
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Yeah, all spoilers this one.
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Yeah, so uh Green Arrow's Archer, Green Arrow Archer's Quest is the third uh story in uh the Green Arrow volume that started in 2001.
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Probably my favorite era of my favorite character, and this is the probably the best story of that era.
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Again, written by Brad Meltzer, drawn by Phil Hester and Andy Parks, colors by Guy Major, letters by Sean Cannot, covers by Matt Wagner.
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And um the this story follows Oliver Queen, the original Green Arrow, who, in the first two stories of the book, came back from the dead and has resettled himself in Star City, has reintroduced himself to his lover Black Canary, his former sidekick Arsenal, and uh his son who he never knew wink, wink, nudge, nudge, Connor Hawk, who became the second Green Arrow.
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And in this volume, um Oliver Queen basically like tracks down his will that he left behind and like basically is like going through his own will to like find the things he left behind for other people, because now that he's not dead, he wants to get them back.
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So the one of the biggest things to me about the story that I love is we often talk about how death doesn't matter in mainstream superhero comics because death will be undone.
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And to me, it's like that's not necessarily true, it matters what you do with the death.
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And a story about a guy who did die has come back to life, and now is like the the honeymoon period of his rebirth is over.
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Now it's like now you have to deal with all the stuff that you left behind.
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And that's literally what this whole arc is about.
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You have to deal with the relationships you left behind, you have to deal with the people that you left behind, and you have to deal with the secrets that you left behind.
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Um, and you know, not only does he go on this mission to find you know all this old stuff he left behind, but he goes on this mission with his uh sidekick, uh who was speedy, is now a grown-up character called Arsenal, and he has to deal with the fact that, like, oh, this kid who like I I raised is a grown man, and like life has really gone by since I've been gone, and I don't know if I can make peace with that.
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And the beautiful thing about this, and I guess we should just spoil what the twists are when we're describing these books, right?
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The beautiful thing about the book is like by the end, you're like, oh, this guy has found these things and he's whole, and like we we think that he's like maybe like kind of full now.
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It's like, oh, you've kind of overcome all the problems you had, you know.
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But it's like, but this is an ongoing superhero comic.
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You have to keep having problems, you have to keep having troubles if we're gonna keep following you.
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And what we find out at the end of the story is uh he he collected all these kind of trinkets, and one of the trinkets he he got was his original Justice League certificate, which is just a goofy DC thing I love.
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When he joined the Justice League, they gave him a certificate that was like Green Arrow, you're a member for helping us beat up Star O or whatever it was.
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I think it was Dr.
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Light, actually.
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Um, but in the back of the frame, there's a picture of him and his son, Connor Hawk, as a baby.
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And we were always led to believe that Oliver never knew about Connor and only met him as an adult.
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And what we find out that really challenges our perception of this character and our perception of him going forward was like, you always knew that you had the son and he found you as an adult and you lied and said you didn't know about him, but in reality, you did know about him and you never went to get him.
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And it like it really after like really falling in love with this character and seeing him put his life together, you have to go, like, man, do I like this guy anymore?
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Is this too far for me?
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Is this a bridge too far?
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And then really the whole vault, the whole series uh is about like, hey, like this guy was a great superhero, but was he a good man?
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And now that he has a second chance at life, he's gonna try to be a good man, try to be a good father, try to be a better friend.
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And in each arc, he stumbles to that somehow, which is again why I love this series, why I think it's a great my favorite moment for this character, Green Arrow.
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And again, like that that punch at the end.
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Uh, there's some there's a speech where he's basically like, everybody else in the Justin always used to give me flack for not having an arch nemesis.
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But the truth is, I'm my own worst enemy.
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I'm a bastard, I'm a bad guy.
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He's crying while looking at this picture of his son, and he's not wearing his mask, he's in his costume, and like he's so mad at himself, and it's like so deeply human and uncomfortable, and beautifully written by Brad and beautifully rendered by Phil and Andy and Guy.
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And it's just like a thing burned into my consciousness.
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And again, this is my favorite character.
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So for me, like it made me like him more and not less.
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But if someone came up to me and was like, I hate that guy, I'd be like, You're right.
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You should hate that guy.
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He's a bad dude sometimes, but he's also a good dude.
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And uh, yeah, so I, you know, when I saw Watchman on the the Excel spreadsheet, I too was like, Man, I'm gonna get beat, but if I'm getting beat, I'm at least gonna go out like talking about a comic I love and a twist I love because there's other twists I could have talked about.
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We could have done an Alan Moore head-to-head, and I could have picked um the twist and swamp thing with the anatomy-ish uh anatomy lesson.
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I thought about something from House of M, the Brian Bennis, Olivier Quapel Marvel event.
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I thought about another DC comic identity crisis as a pretty big twist, but I was like, no, this is the twist that means the most to me emotionally, and the one that's stuck with me the longest, and the one that's really altered my love and perception of a character for the better.
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So that's why I'm picking it.
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So, a question for you on that do you view this twist as kind of integral to the specific story of Archer's quest, or do you view it more so as a twist uh inside of the larger history of uh the green arrow, if that makes sense?
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Like do you both, yeah.
00:17:48.480 --> 00:18:01.440
Because viewing it just in terms of the story, like it makes so much sense because every every issue is about him getting something and trying to resolve some relationship from his past, and then you know he has to finally go home.
00:18:01.759 --> 00:18:08.799
The whole time, like we know that like his son was injured in the in the in the storyline before this, we don't see him, he's only talked about.
00:18:09.119 --> 00:18:20.160
So then in the last issue, he has to do the toughest thing, which is he has to go sit with his son who has been injured, and his son is like, Hey man, I just want to let you know, like, I love you so much, I'm glad we found each other.
00:18:20.319 --> 00:18:28.960
Like, even though like a lot of time passed, like we love each other and we're we're we're making our father-son relationship work now, and we're gonna we're both gonna be called Green Arrow, and this is gonna work out great for us.
00:18:29.039 --> 00:18:33.279
And you're like, Man, what a great, like, kind of sit comedy premise that we got set up for us here.
00:18:33.440 --> 00:18:36.880
And then, like, it can't be, it can't just be that way.
00:18:37.039 --> 00:18:42.160
Like, now there is this underlying tension that someday is gonna get exploited and was exploited pretty well.
00:18:42.240 --> 00:18:47.279
That's like, I always knew that this guy was my son, I always knew that he was out there, and I didn't go find him.
00:18:47.680 --> 00:18:54.079
And I'm going to like try to make this relationship work, but I'm going to hold on to this lie until it is ripped away from me.
00:18:54.240 --> 00:18:59.200
Because also the flip side of this is like this, and that's something we could talk about in terms of larger twists and superhero comics.
00:18:59.279 --> 00:19:00.799
This twist is also a retcon.
00:19:01.599 --> 00:19:07.759
Because this this character and this storyline existed for 10 years before this, and somebody else was like, No, we never knew.
00:19:07.920 --> 00:19:09.119
He never knew that was his son.
00:19:09.279 --> 00:19:15.200
And there's also, you know, in this in the beginning of this storyline, there's a great kind of look at Oliver Queen's funeral.
00:19:15.359 --> 00:19:18.559
That funeral never happened before we saw it in these flashbacks.
00:19:18.640 --> 00:19:23.200
There was a different version of his funeral that was like, okay, not awesome.
00:19:23.519 --> 00:19:27.680
But they were like, look, I think like that guy probably could have had a different funeral, and like, let's do that.
00:19:27.839 --> 00:19:40.400
They they made the decision that sometimes you have to, which is like in Severe Kong was like, hey, is the version that was their story engine-y enough for us to keep going, or do we kind of need to go back and tweak that a little bit and make it more punchy?
00:19:40.480 --> 00:19:42.480
And they were like, we need to make it more punchy.
00:19:42.640 --> 00:19:55.920
And the mystery in the funeral that they show us in the beginning of the story is like no offense to those original creators, better than what was originally done, and really kind of you know gives not only fuel for this story, but for this character in the DC universe moving forward.
00:19:56.240 --> 00:20:16.240
One thing about I think Archer Quest specifically, and also I was talking to you talking to you a little bit about this in general, is I think favorite comics can be hard, or favorite episodes of something can be hard because typically a favorite of something is like a fulfillment of the series, or it is a break from form of the series, you know.
00:20:16.319 --> 00:20:24.960
So like if you look up a list of like the best uh Simpsons episode, there's a chance that's not gonna be like the prototypical ideal Simpsons episode.
00:20:25.039 --> 00:20:26.720
It's gonna be kind of a weird episode.
00:20:26.799 --> 00:20:31.839
It's gonna be something strange because that's what fans gravitate towards, or it's what stands out.
00:20:32.079 --> 00:20:53.279
And I think that to jump the gun a little bit, what's interesting about Watchmen and Green Arrow is they're both these like reflections on a long history of superheroics, but one expects you to have been reading these like kind of in real time, and the other is making up a history of superhero comics that is it is commenting on.
00:20:53.359 --> 00:21:07.039
So, like, while that's throwing you into the deep end, it's very much walking you through it the whole time because it's it's made up for that story, where that is sitting uh kind of at the pinnacle of this mountain of stories that have come before it.
00:21:07.279 --> 00:21:13.119
And to really feel the weight of that issue, and this is not a knock against it, it's the best thing about ongoing comics.
00:21:13.279 --> 00:21:17.599
You need to have read uh some or all of the ongoing comics leading up to it.
00:21:17.839 --> 00:21:23.759
Yeah, or in my case, because I was younger when I read this, like it makes you want to go back and read those stories and find out more about those relationships.
00:21:23.839 --> 00:21:34.880
Like that's you know, we often talk about like, oh, like people can like people can read these and feel pushed off, but it's like, well, no, but then for us, the one the people who got into it, it's like I read these and I was like, I want to know more about everything they're talking about.
00:21:35.039 --> 00:21:37.039
I want to know about every single relationship they're talking about.
00:21:37.200 --> 00:21:38.799
Why isn't this character like that character?
00:21:38.960 --> 00:21:40.480
There was another guy who was Green Lantern.
00:21:40.640 --> 00:21:41.279
What's his deal?
00:21:41.440 --> 00:21:49.519
Like, there's a version where you're like, oh, this is like this is this is given to me in a way that's like impenetrable, or there's a way that's given to you where it's like, don't you want to know more about this?
00:21:49.920 --> 00:21:52.319
I feel like this is what that is, but those are great observations.
00:21:52.480 --> 00:21:56.720
Also, both these stories are about the ripple effects of the death of a deeply complicated man.
00:21:56.880 --> 00:21:57.279
Yes.
00:21:58.160 --> 00:21:58.720
Yes.
00:21:59.359 --> 00:21:59.599
Yeah.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:05.200
I I think that's uh uh I forgot what I was drawing on there.
00:22:05.519 --> 00:22:06.720
So you continue.
00:22:10.079 --> 00:22:16.640
You had not you've read the story before, so like what was your well, like how'd you feel about it, you know?
00:22:16.720 --> 00:22:25.680
Like, yeah, so I was obviously familiar with the characters before reading it, but I did not have years and years of reading these specific lines going into it.
00:22:25.839 --> 00:22:38.400
So going into it, you really have to what I try and do whenever coming into a especially like a long canon history is just like I am going to accept any information presented to me and I'm gonna file those facts as true and remember them.
00:22:38.480 --> 00:22:42.160
Like that's kind of how you have to approach a long-term comic as you enter it.
00:22:42.240 --> 00:22:56.720
So as they're telling you things, you really have, and I think one thing um they do really well in the comic is it, which is a you know a standard of ongoing comics like this, is they give you reminders, but I think they do a very good job not overdoing those reminders.
00:22:56.880 --> 00:23:02.400
So like the quick reminder of like, I died, I'm back, that almost I think it opens every single issue.
00:23:02.559 --> 00:23:02.880
Yeah.
00:23:03.119 --> 00:23:08.640
Um, creates, I think, a really effective sense of meditation for the character in this series.
00:23:08.720 --> 00:23:09.839
I think they do that really well.
00:23:10.000 --> 00:23:20.000
I think they do a really good job of providing the new context, especially in the conversation with the new Green Lantern, which they they talk about his relationship with Hal previously, and they talk about it.
00:23:20.079 --> 00:23:25.279
So it is kind of, it does hit you of like, he's talking, he's talking to the guy who replaced his friend.
00:23:25.359 --> 00:23:32.559
And you have that great line where he says, it's like somebody showed up in your friend's skin like clothes for Halloween.
00:23:32.640 --> 00:23:54.079
And it's like that's a really, I think it's a really great moment of reflection where it's like any comics fan can understand the sense of weight and history behind a character like this, and seeing what it means to be gone for a while and do this retrospective because they're so iconic that it is it's it is very accessible.
00:23:54.240 --> 00:24:06.480
Like I think it is more accessible than people give it credit for in terms of I know you know Green Lantern, you know these characters, you know like Speedy or Arsenal, you know about them, and you know the history of these things being let like handed down.
00:24:06.720 --> 00:24:16.400
I think the idea what's really fascinating about the series for me is that it really lives with and explores the consequence of becoming back.
00:24:16.720 --> 00:24:24.480
Because as you were saying, I think uh an instinct of, and it has to do with why we bring comic book characters back.
00:24:24.559 --> 00:24:27.039
It's because, hey, we want to get back to what we were doing before.
00:24:27.200 --> 00:24:28.079
Bring that guy back.
00:24:28.240 --> 00:24:31.680
We want to go back to what we were doing, we want to go back to that old status quo.
00:24:31.839 --> 00:24:35.920
And I think doing that so quickly can be a mistake.
00:24:36.000 --> 00:24:42.319
And I think what this comic does a really good job of acknowledging is coming back from the dead would be crazy.
00:24:42.640 --> 00:24:48.079
That should, that should be an enormous endeavor and upheaval in a status quo in and of itself.
00:24:48.240 --> 00:24:56.400
So I really admire that this series takes time to sit with that and really process it and talk about what it would mean.
00:24:56.559 --> 00:25:07.279
Um, and I think that's something, again, another similarity between them is they're both playing on the what you expect from a superhero comic and taking a second and being like, we're actually not gonna do status quo.
00:25:07.359 --> 00:25:13.039
We're gonna explore this interim step where is could be very messy, very interesting, and very gray.
00:25:13.359 --> 00:25:20.720
I think with comics, especially like with a, you know, you look at something as like big and outlandish as like a character coming back to life, right?
00:25:20.960 --> 00:25:27.119
And obviously in real life, you can't come back to life, but there's still like parallels to real life things at play here.
00:25:27.200 --> 00:25:31.680
And I think the best parallel there is like it's a you can't go home again storyline, right?
00:25:31.839 --> 00:25:37.279
Like let's say you had to move home or return to an old job or coach of sports team.
00:25:37.680 --> 00:25:41.599
Yeah, and it's like this thing where, like, yeah, sure, like, oh, everyone's green arrow back.
00:25:41.680 --> 00:25:42.880
Let's bring Green Arrow back.
00:25:43.279 --> 00:25:53.039
Well, he doesn't want to be back, all his friends are gone or they're dead, or people are wearing their costumes or they've taken over, or if you were returned to an old job or an old home, like your neighbors are different.
00:25:53.200 --> 00:25:55.839
Like the town's not the same town anymore, you know?
00:25:56.000 --> 00:26:01.680
So it's like we talk about returning to the glory days and think it's as simple as Green Arrow returning, and now we can be in the glory days.
00:26:01.839 --> 00:26:02.720
Well, his friends are dead.
00:26:02.880 --> 00:26:04.160
Yeah, it's different.
00:26:04.400 --> 00:26:08.000
Catharsis and closure are very powerful, poignant things.
00:26:08.160 --> 00:26:11.839
And as creators, you are going for closure.
00:26:11.920 --> 00:26:18.319
Like the death of Green Arrow was a really big deal, and they had to like really close that door and make people mourn and sit with it.
00:26:18.480 --> 00:26:23.359
So to open that box up is way more complicated than just, oh, he's back, everyone's fine.
00:26:23.440 --> 00:26:24.960
It's like, we cried at your funeral.
00:26:25.279 --> 00:26:25.839
But you died, man.
00:26:26.240 --> 00:26:27.359
We burned your stuff.
00:26:27.839 --> 00:26:30.799
I think you hit something really well, especially with that Green Lantern scene.
00:26:30.880 --> 00:26:37.839
It's like while his while his nostalgia is nice for him, other people live that life and live through his moments.
00:26:38.000 --> 00:26:40.160
And for them, it wasn't rosy, it wasn't great.
00:26:40.240 --> 00:26:42.960
It's like, hey man, I was there, that stunk.
00:26:43.119 --> 00:26:45.039
Or hey man, I was a kid when that stuff happened.
00:26:45.119 --> 00:26:46.079
That stuff was lame.
00:26:46.240 --> 00:26:52.319
Or like, hey man, all the stuff that you talk about as being nice is used against me and invalidates me as a person.
00:26:52.480 --> 00:27:00.319
Like it really explores the multiple sides of like going back to your past and going through things the the good, the bad, and the ugly.
00:27:00.400 --> 00:27:09.119
And you know, talk about like a another moment in this issue that's really tragic, but not a twist is like, you know, in this issue, you're kind of like, Oh, is the will they want they between him and Black Canary over?
00:27:09.279 --> 00:27:09.920
Is he finally gonna propose it?
00:27:10.079 --> 00:27:10.480
Devastating.
00:27:10.640 --> 00:27:11.599
But she knows he's gonna propose.
00:27:11.680 --> 00:27:14.319
And he's like, and she's basically like, Don't do it, man.
00:27:14.559 --> 00:27:18.000
Like, I don't want to not be with you, but like I don't want that right now.
00:27:18.240 --> 00:27:24.319
And he when you found that he was that's one of the things he was building up to the whole time, and he lies to himself, he's like, Yeah, don't worry about it wasn't gonna do that.
00:27:24.400 --> 00:27:25.759
I'm just here for a night with my girl.
00:27:25.839 --> 00:27:27.440
You're like, you bastard.
00:27:27.680 --> 00:27:28.000
Yeah.
00:27:28.720 --> 00:27:36.240
I thought that was really great too, because I think another thing is this sense of like his life ended and now he's coming back to a life that has moved on.
00:27:36.400 --> 00:27:38.319
So, what is there for him to do?
00:27:38.559 --> 00:27:45.119
And the idea of finally moving forward in that relationship is a natural choice, and the idea of like, I'm still not ready to move forward.
00:27:45.279 --> 00:27:47.440
Like, we still have we're not there.
00:27:47.599 --> 00:27:51.039
Like, I had this big experience, and she didn't, right?
00:27:51.359 --> 00:28:14.000
Yeah, and and the heartbreak, and this is something that like gets me when I the older I get, but like the heartbreak that like I wasn't really a great dad to this kid who did I who I did live with, who was in my house and Roy, and I wasn't a good dad to this kid who was far away from me in Connor, and now I want to be a good dad to both of them, but they're both grown men who have kind of become great men in spite of me and not because of me.
00:28:14.079 --> 00:28:14.240
Yeah.
00:28:14.400 --> 00:28:19.039
So yeah, again, there's a lot of rich stuff, and there's a lot of stuff that's been very influential on me as a person and a writer.
00:28:19.119 --> 00:28:21.440
And again, like this is my favorite combo character.
00:28:21.599 --> 00:28:24.480
This is probably like the first story I would recommend people read.
00:28:24.559 --> 00:28:31.200
Like, I think it's really quite good, and like again, like to your point, like it's very accessible while giving you a lot of stuff that you can go look into yourself.
00:28:31.359 --> 00:28:41.599
And like, there's a there's great fight scenes, there's great drama, there's great character moments, and just like a lot of rich relationships that like I go like I want to learn more about these people as if they were real people.
00:28:42.160 --> 00:28:49.200
To talk about the twist kind of acting as a fulfillment or making it easier to uh understand maybe what had been happening the whole time.
00:28:49.359 --> 00:28:54.960
I will say, like, to be a bit of a critique on Archer's quest, the construction of it.
00:28:55.119 --> 00:28:58.720
I do think like the catalyst is a little bit needlessly muddied throughout.
00:28:58.799 --> 00:29:27.039
Like it is like it starts off, and he's like, This guy came to my funeral and I don't know who he is, and then he tracks him down and he's like the shade shows up, and shade is like, you hired me, and I hired him, and the thing you hired us for is to steal these objects, and then the rest of the thing, but I didn't steal all of them, and the rest of it becomes like, okay, then I'm gonna get the rest of my objects back, and I'm gonna view it as a heist, even though they are my objects, but there's emotional reasons it's a heist for me.
00:29:27.279 --> 00:29:30.799
But it just kind of that thrust of it felt muddied.
00:29:30.880 --> 00:29:34.319
Like I get it as a like, I see what they wanted to happen.
00:29:34.480 --> 00:29:41.599
Like what they wanted was Oliver to go on a road trip with Roy and to go examine all of the parts of his life one by one.
00:29:41.839 --> 00:29:45.359
But like the that part of it to me, I was like, what if what are we talking about?
00:29:45.680 --> 00:29:48.720
So I think one thing I will say is like this was this was Brad Meltzer's first comic.
00:29:48.799 --> 00:29:51.759
And for someone's first comic, like, pretty damn good job.
00:29:52.000 --> 00:29:53.200
Yeah, pretty damn good job.
00:29:53.359 --> 00:30:04.640
However, like I think the things you were talking about are some of the first combo rare things where it's like, oh yeah, I'm gonna use this piece of mythology and this piece of mythology, and they're gonna overlap like this, where it's like, yeah, maybe you don't really need all of that stuff.
00:30:04.799 --> 00:30:09.680
Like, yeah, you maybe don't need the Cat Man subplot, even though Catman loves dogs is pretty great.
00:30:09.759 --> 00:30:32.880
Yeah, maybe you could have just gotten to the shade and the shade being like, Yeah, you know, I under like that part of the story is interesting where Oliver's like, yeah, I hired an immortal bad guy to take care of my stuff because I knew he was always gonna be around, which hurts Roy's feelings, and then like it that does overarch through a series of Roy proving himself as a man, and there's a line at the end where someone's talking to Ollie about Roy, and Ollie's like, Roy's a good, and he's gonna say boy, and then he says man.
00:30:33.039 --> 00:30:34.000
Roy's a good man.
00:30:34.160 --> 00:30:34.480
Yeah, yeah.
00:30:34.640 --> 00:30:36.240
Because he's gonna acknowledge that he's grown up.
00:30:36.319 --> 00:30:39.039
Like I left and he became the person he was supposed to be.
00:30:39.440 --> 00:30:41.519
I don't get to take responsibility for any of that.
00:30:41.680 --> 00:30:44.559
But to your point, that the entry point is a little fanboy.
00:30:44.960 --> 00:30:48.640
For context, um how long had he been gone?
00:30:48.960 --> 00:30:51.359
In publishing time, it was around eight years.
00:30:51.440 --> 00:30:59.359
In in like print time, like you could say two, you could say three or four years, like the kind of flexibility of the DC universe.
00:30:59.519 --> 00:31:08.720
Long enough that like Connor Hawk, his son, had like a full career as Green Arrow where like he had the Green Arrow title for like almost like almost 60 issues on his own.
00:31:08.880 --> 00:31:15.920
He was in the Justice League, he was part of major DC events, he teamed up with Kyle Rayner, the Green Lantern, and had a relationship with him as a friend.
00:31:16.079 --> 00:31:21.200
And uh yeah, like long enough where you're like, Oh yeah, we made peace of the fact that this character is dead and gone.
00:31:21.440 --> 00:31:25.519
And like that was definitely part of a thing in the 90s where like they had knocked out all those Silver H characters.
00:31:25.759 --> 00:31:32.960
Barry Allen was gone after Crisis and Wally West stepped in, Hal Jordan had died, and Kyle Rayner stepped in, and then Ollie Queen died and Connor Hawk stepped in.
00:31:33.039 --> 00:31:37.920
So it was part of like a thing where when I was a kid, I was like, Yeah, those guys are dead forever, and then they were not.
00:31:38.160 --> 00:31:39.599
They all came back.
00:31:40.640 --> 00:31:44.160
All right, let's move to the opening remarks on The Watchman.
00:31:45.759 --> 00:31:51.200
I can't describe how intimidated I am to talk about this comic on a podcast.
00:31:51.359 --> 00:31:58.000
I regret everything about choosing it, even though we joke about it being like, well, of course we have to talk about this one.
00:31:58.160 --> 00:32:01.039
It's like okay, let's buckle in.
00:32:01.119 --> 00:32:02.559
How much context do I give?
00:32:02.720 --> 00:32:20.400
I mean, so The Watchmen, and I'm assuming people have read it if they're watching this podcast or listening to this podcast, but I will try and give a bit of context without talking for 30 minutes about the Watchmen because holy geez, it is complicated.
00:32:20.559 --> 00:32:22.079
There's so many moving parts.
00:32:22.240 --> 00:32:34.480
Um but the Watchman twist, I did it 35 minutes ago, is probably one of the most iconic moments and lines in comics.
00:32:34.799 --> 00:32:55.839
And t it up, we have been following for this up to the point of the twist, 11 issues, 10 issues up to issue 11 of uh an investigation into a plethora of different occurrences in an alternate reality version of the world, which departed after the inception of Dr.
00:32:56.000 --> 00:32:59.359
Manhattan back in like 1938.
00:32:59.759 --> 00:33:02.960
I think it's like 1930s or 1940s.
00:33:03.119 --> 00:33:04.079
But essentially, Dr.
00:33:04.160 --> 00:33:12.480
Manhattan is created as a part of an atomic experiment that deviates the timeline where the Cold War occurs under completely different circumstances.
00:33:12.640 --> 00:33:23.759
Nixon has been president for like five terms because they disbanded term limits on American presidents, and also the comedian assassinated the guys who unveiled the Watergate scandal.
00:33:23.839 --> 00:33:24.960
Like there's a lot of moving stuff.
00:33:25.279 --> 00:33:33.039
Yeah, I think I think to really set it up, it's it is an alt universe that's uh uh follow has these gritty vigilante superheroes.
00:33:33.200 --> 00:33:33.359
Yep.
00:33:33.519 --> 00:33:45.839
There was kind of an original JSA group of superheroes that were the Minutemen and they did stuff, and then their children briefly were like children descendants, just new generation were briefly like, and we'll be superheroes as well.
00:33:46.000 --> 00:33:53.519
And then the world starts getting harsher and harsher and kind of cracking down on them in different ways until only two superheroes are remaining.
00:33:53.599 --> 00:33:54.000
We have Dr.
00:33:54.160 --> 00:33:56.400
Manhattan, this all-powerful blue guy, and the comedian.
00:33:56.720 --> 00:33:57.599
And from there is where you heard.
00:33:58.000 --> 00:34:05.359
So essentially, to summarize a lot of history, multiple different timelines, we get to a point where the series opens with the death of the comedian.
00:34:05.519 --> 00:34:09.840
This begins being investigated by Rorschach, who is convinced there is some sort of conspiracy.
00:34:10.000 --> 00:34:11.679
Uh you want to give us a little bit on Rorschach?
00:34:11.840 --> 00:34:13.280
Like, just give little intros for everybody.
00:34:13.519 --> 00:34:13.920
So really quick.
00:34:14.320 --> 00:34:25.920
So the comedian had been a uh a mercenary superhero who is now sanctioned by the American government to like go and infiltrate and take down political plots and assassinations.
00:34:26.079 --> 00:34:26.639
Him and Dr.
00:34:26.719 --> 00:34:35.199
Manhattan are the only two sanctioned and operational superpowers, apart from Rorschach, who is the last remaining masked vigilante at the start of the opening of the series.
00:34:35.360 --> 00:34:41.920
Rorschach is a very uh controversial uh figure within this world that has outlawed superheroes.
00:34:42.079 --> 00:34:43.679
He has a sense of no compromise.
00:34:43.840 --> 00:34:45.199
He lives without compromise.
00:34:45.360 --> 00:34:47.119
He is a major narrator throughout the book.
00:34:47.199 --> 00:34:56.159
He remains masked in the classic, like white and black Rorschach style um mask with the suit, uh the jacket and the top hat, or not top hat, the hat.
00:34:56.639 --> 00:34:57.039
He smells.
00:34:57.280 --> 00:34:58.239
He smells really bad.
00:34:58.400 --> 00:35:00.159
That's an aspect throughout the series.
00:35:00.400 --> 00:35:15.280
And it starts um there with him going to recruit or at least warn his past compatriots about the death of the comedian and that he is trying to investigate because he thinks there is some sort of operation trying to take down and kill the remaining heroes.
00:35:15.440 --> 00:35:18.079
Um, the the people he specifically warns are Dr.
00:35:18.159 --> 00:35:19.840
Manhattan, who is not too worried about it.
00:35:19.920 --> 00:35:20.559
He's pretty invincible.
00:35:20.719 --> 00:35:21.360
Not worried about anything.
00:35:21.519 --> 00:35:22.159
Not worried about anything.
00:35:22.400 --> 00:35:24.079
Can't be, couldn't possibly be bothered.
00:35:24.239 --> 00:35:29.199
Um, the silk second Silk Spectre, uh, Lori, um, whose last name I can't pronounce.
00:35:29.440 --> 00:35:30.079
You speczek.
00:35:30.320 --> 00:35:30.480
Thank you.
00:35:30.800 --> 00:35:34.159
Guys who actually asked as a Polish American while I worked at DC to be like, how do you say this?
00:35:34.239 --> 00:35:36.320
And I was like, I think this because I texted my friend.
00:35:38.000 --> 00:35:40.960
So she uh is no longer operating as a superhero.
00:35:41.039 --> 00:35:42.880
She is uh the paramour of Dr.
00:35:42.960 --> 00:35:44.559
Manhattan at the time of the series.
00:35:44.800 --> 00:35:47.280
Uh uh Dilberg, Dib Dilberg.
00:35:47.440 --> 00:35:48.079
Dale Dryberg.
00:35:48.320 --> 00:35:49.280
Dale Dryberg, thank you.
00:35:49.440 --> 00:35:50.159
Yes, best name.
00:35:50.480 --> 00:35:51.119
A lot of fun names.
00:35:51.199 --> 00:35:55.760
Uh, who is the night owl who is also no longer operation, the second night owl, also.
00:35:56.159 --> 00:35:58.639
Um and uh Dan Dryberg.
00:35:58.880 --> 00:36:00.000
Dan Dryberg, thank you.
00:36:00.239 --> 00:36:03.119
And Adrian Viet Viet, yeah.
00:36:03.440 --> 00:36:08.719
Viet Adrian Viet, also known as Osmandius, who retired before the enactment of the Keen Act.
00:36:08.880 --> 00:36:10.639
So he foresaw the fall of superheroes.
00:36:10.719 --> 00:36:22.239
He's kind of portrayed as this ultra smart, self-made man who like is hyper-trained, superhuman strength, even though he is not actually magically or supernaturally enhanced.
00:36:22.320 --> 00:36:23.679
He warns these four people.
00:36:23.760 --> 00:36:28.800
Um, across the course of the series, he teams up eventually with Night Owl to try and track down who's been killing these vigilantes.
00:36:29.039 --> 00:36:30.000
There's other moving parts.
00:36:30.159 --> 00:36:40.800
There's like titans of industry have been going missing, like uh uh act uh there's like a there's like a scientist and a a brain of a psychic goes missing.
00:36:40.960 --> 00:36:42.159
There's a lot of moving parts.
00:36:42.239 --> 00:36:44.159
There's a lot of documents throughout this entire thing.
00:36:44.480 --> 00:36:46.239
I was just gonna add, and maybe you're just getting to it.
00:36:46.320 --> 00:36:50.400
I'm so sorry if you were, but the the other big thing is that we are in the face of nuclear war.
00:36:50.559 --> 00:36:50.639
Yes.
00:36:51.039 --> 00:36:53.039
That's kind of the big that's what's hanging over the story.
00:36:53.360 --> 00:36:58.800
Yes, which starts because it is revealed that past people associated with Dr.
00:36:58.880 --> 00:37:01.679
Manhattan have gotten cancer.
00:37:01.920 --> 00:37:04.639
And in that, it is revealed that people are suspecting that Dr.
00:37:04.719 --> 00:37:06.400
Manhattan is himself is causing it.
00:37:06.559 --> 00:37:12.400
So he essentially absconds to Mars to remove himself from humanity and the crisis at play.
00:37:12.639 --> 00:37:14.639
Um, so there's a lot of moving parts going on.
00:37:14.880 --> 00:37:15.039
Right.
00:37:15.119 --> 00:37:17.280
So and what you mean by that the Dr.
00:37:17.360 --> 00:37:19.360
Manhattan was America's superpower.
00:37:19.519 --> 00:37:23.840
So as long as he was around, no one was going to start nuclear war because he could end it.
00:37:24.000 --> 00:37:24.960
So then they took him off the table.
00:37:25.280 --> 00:37:29.679
They took him off the table, or something to he removed himself, and they're not sure what took him off the table.
00:37:29.840 --> 00:37:34.159
But uh, in light of that, the clock towards doomsday is accelerating.
00:37:34.239 --> 00:37:39.840
We have these really, I think, quite funny scenes of Nixon with his like his nuclear bomb football.
00:37:40.239 --> 00:37:45.440
He's drawn so hilariously by Dave Gibbons, like he looks terrible in a great way.
00:37:46.159 --> 00:37:48.400
He also did a really fantastic job with that dialogue.
00:37:48.480 --> 00:37:54.320
I'm like, I can really hear Nixon's voice, um, which is fun because we don't I'll just Dr.
00:37:54.400 --> 00:37:55.119
Manhattan.
00:37:55.440 --> 00:38:07.199
I feel like we don't have that many examples, and maybe I'm wrong, but I don't know many examples of Alan Moore trying to communicate idiolect through dialogue, and it's really fun to hear him render like a known person this way.
00:38:07.519 --> 00:38:09.519
Um and it just really feels like him.
00:38:09.679 --> 00:38:10.960
Anyway, a lot of moving parts.
00:38:11.039 --> 00:38:12.159
So we've set the scene.
00:38:12.400 --> 00:38:31.039
Night Owl and Rorschach are going to try and communicate with Adrian because they discover a final missing plot point about there's a an industry called Pyramid Industries, is who set up um the that that's who all of the people who got infected with cancer or infected, who become who got cancer and worked with Dr.
00:38:31.119 --> 00:38:38.880
Manhattan while worked for, they go to Adrian's office and Night Owl manages to break in and realize that they know he's the bad guy as well.
00:38:39.119 --> 00:38:39.679
No, they don't.
00:38:39.920 --> 00:38:45.199
When they arrive to his office, they are want to talk to him because they're trying to get information from him.
00:38:45.280 --> 00:38:56.480
And correct me if I'm wrong, he they they don't realize it until Night Owl is typing into the computer and types in Ramsey's too as the password, and realize he gets files that Adrian actually owns Pyramid Industries.
00:38:56.639 --> 00:38:57.119
Right, okay, yeah.
00:38:57.280 --> 00:38:58.639
And they're like, he's been behind this.
00:38:58.880 --> 00:39:06.079
And it's really a fantastic moment because Rorschach, who's not afraid of anyone, in this moment is like, oh, we might be screwed.
00:39:06.239 --> 00:39:08.079
Like, I don't think we can beat Adrian.
00:39:08.159 --> 00:39:11.039
He is like the smartest man alive, he's faster than all of us.
00:39:11.360 --> 00:39:16.960
So they then make their way to the Arctic where uh he has secluded himself.
00:39:17.119 --> 00:39:22.400
And throughout all of this, we in issue 11, it's actually mainly a life story of Adrian.
00:39:22.559 --> 00:39:36.639
So we hear about how he became who he is, we hear about like him abscond like leaving his fortune and like donating it to charity and then going on this cross-world tour to follow the path of Alexander the Great.
00:39:36.880 --> 00:39:38.480
Like it's really from his perspective.
00:39:38.800 --> 00:39:39.280
He sucks.
00:39:39.440 --> 00:39:41.360
He's sucks so bad.
00:39:41.599 --> 00:39:47.920
So he he it's really funny reading like like just information about this series.
00:39:48.079 --> 00:39:57.039
Everyone who's talking about this issue is like, after a really long monologue from Ozymandias, like, we talk about how much this guy it makes sense.
00:39:57.280 --> 00:40:02.960
Anyway, so they arrive, and Ozzy Mandius is alone in his sort of bunker.
00:40:03.119 --> 00:40:04.559
He's killed all of his servants.
00:40:04.880 --> 00:40:07.199
He's killed everybody except for his little cat Bubastus.
00:40:07.440 --> 00:40:08.480
Yes, right before.
00:40:08.639 --> 00:40:12.719
And he is seeing on the monitors that Night Owl and Rorschach are approaching.
00:40:13.039 --> 00:40:19.280
He goes and attends to some sort of business, kills his servants, and then Night Owl and Rorschach arrive.
00:40:19.599 --> 00:40:22.639
And they try and sneak up at him, doesn't work.
00:40:22.960 --> 00:40:26.800
He then goes on to explain that he has been behind this the whole time.
00:40:27.039 --> 00:40:29.840
He is the one who kidnapped all these people to the island.
00:40:30.000 --> 00:40:34.800
He killed the comedian because the comedian found out about the island and what was on the island.
00:40:34.960 --> 00:40:47.199
He was building an enormous psychic alien monster that he was going to let loose on New York, killing half of the population in an attempt to stop nuclear holocaust.
00:40:47.280 --> 00:40:53.360
Because he had predicted that the world was going to hit nuclear holocaust in 19 in the 1990s, and he's like, I need to prevent that.
00:40:53.519 --> 00:41:00.000
The only way to do it is to give all of humanity a common enemy in nuclear or in aliens.
00:41:00.239 --> 00:41:03.360
So he created this alien monster to set to send.
00:41:03.440 --> 00:41:07.599
And there's this really fantastic line where this is the plot twist.
00:41:07.920 --> 00:41:08.320
This is the twist.
00:41:10.000 --> 00:41:11.840
All of that is in foreign context.
00:41:12.079 --> 00:41:13.280
I'm melting.
00:41:13.519 --> 00:41:16.480
Um Dan has this fantastic line.
00:41:16.559 --> 00:41:17.760
Night Owl has this fantastic line.
00:41:17.840 --> 00:41:19.039
He's like, Man, you need help.
00:41:19.119 --> 00:41:20.639
I'm so glad we got here in time.
00:41:20.719 --> 00:41:22.320
What were you even gonna do this?
00:41:22.480 --> 00:41:24.639
And Ozzie Mandia says, do it.
00:41:25.199 --> 00:41:28.480
I'm Dan, I'm not some sort of Republic serial villain.
00:41:28.639 --> 00:41:32.719
Why would I tell you my entire plan before I had been able to ensure it was able to be enacted?
00:41:32.800 --> 00:41:33.760
Not an exact quote.
00:41:33.920 --> 00:41:34.320
Do it.
00:41:34.480 --> 00:41:36.320
I did it 35 minutes ago.
00:41:36.480 --> 00:41:39.840
And it's just a silent panel of Dan and Rorschach.
00:41:40.079 --> 00:41:46.960
And then it cuts back to New York, where we've been following these characters on the street as there is just a white building flash.
00:41:47.039 --> 00:41:54.400
And one of my favorite moments, the news, the news, uh, the news station characters who've been just sitting, just little inset panels.
00:41:54.559 --> 00:42:04.079
He finally like runs and like grabs the boy to try and protect him as like half of New York is burned to the ground and like decimated by this.
00:42:04.320 --> 00:42:08.559
So the I did it 35 minutes ago, as in when I started talking.
00:42:08.639 --> 00:42:11.840
I started describing the twist 35 minutes ago.
00:42:11.920 --> 00:42:13.440
That is the twist for context.
00:42:13.679 --> 00:42:14.159
We made it.
00:42:14.800 --> 00:42:17.119
It is one of the greatest twists of all time in comics.
00:42:17.280 --> 00:42:20.639
I think one of the greatest twists in just kind of like modern day fiction.
00:42:20.719 --> 00:42:26.400
I mean, this book is lauded as one of the Time magazine's hundred hundred greatest novels of all time, not just comic books.
00:42:26.639 --> 00:42:30.559
Um I'm also only cutting in to give you a couple minutes to catch your breath.
00:42:30.800 --> 00:42:34.159
Um but like, yeah, no, this this rules.
00:42:34.239 --> 00:42:43.840
And I think like something that's so cool about something that makes the twist work so well is it feels like this is the part where the comic feels like it's gonna finally be a trist with a superhero comic.
00:42:43.920 --> 00:42:46.719
Yes, like these two guys, they're gonna team up, they're gonna save the day.
00:42:47.760 --> 00:42:52.159
It's gonna work out, it's gonna work out for everybody, and then it's like, nah, dude, it's it's over.
00:42:52.239 --> 00:42:55.519
Like these two dummies got there too late, it's it's not gonna happen.
00:42:55.679 --> 00:43:03.119
And like there's there's an emotional setup that I really love before the tragedy of the first again, where you think like everything's gonna work out and these guys are gonna be cool.
00:43:03.280 --> 00:43:08.159
Where when when Rorschach and Night Al, I think it's when they're on the the the owl ship going up there.
00:43:08.320 --> 00:43:14.880
Rorschach's like, Hey, Dan, I know that like I'm not an easy person to be around.
00:43:15.199 --> 00:43:15.920
Thanks for being my friend.
00:43:16.239 --> 00:43:21.119
Thank you for being my friend because you're a really good man, and you're like, oh god, there's some growth here.
00:43:21.360 --> 00:43:22.480
Like everything's gonna go well.
00:43:22.559 --> 00:43:28.239
Like, Alan Moore is kind of like tricking you into thinking, like, you know what, man, this is gonna work out, and then it's not work out for anybody.
00:43:28.480 --> 00:43:28.800
It doesn't.
00:43:28.960 --> 00:43:38.239
And and not only is this twist great, but like it's one of two things from watching that have left containment where like people use this as a meme online all of the time.
00:43:38.400 --> 00:43:39.440
This and and Dr.
00:43:39.599 --> 00:43:42.719
Mahattan sitting on Mars going, I don't like want to be here anymore.
00:43:43.440 --> 00:43:46.639
You know, like it's it's it's killer, it's killer stops.
00:43:46.880 --> 00:43:53.119
I mean, I think it's we were using this as a joke around the office for a while where somebody would tag us being like, Have you sent that book off to the printer yet?
00:43:53.280 --> 00:43:53.840
or something like that.
00:43:54.079 --> 00:43:55.360
And we'd be like, do it.
00:43:55.599 --> 00:43:57.199
I did it 35 minutes ago.
00:43:57.840 --> 00:43:58.000
Yeah.
00:43:58.159 --> 00:43:59.760
I mean, it's a fantastic moment, and I think still.
00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:12.559
Speaking of what we were saying earlier about completing the message, Alan Moore, when he talks about why he wrote this book, is it was about creating something that made superheroes more than just pulp.
00:44:12.880 --> 00:44:17.119
He wanted to make he was like the Moby Dick of superhero comics.
00:44:17.280 --> 00:44:20.559
He wanted it to be an epic literary work.
00:44:21.280 --> 00:44:25.920
And a part of that was like defying what it meant to be a superhero comic.
00:44:26.079 --> 00:44:29.760
The original concept for this, I don't know if you guys know about this, is that it was you probably do that.
00:44:29.840 --> 00:44:32.960
It was like originally supposed to be written with other characters that were pre-existing.
00:44:33.920 --> 00:44:46.400
So DC had bought uh the Charlton comics characters, uh Blue Beetle, the question, uh Peacemaker, shout out John Cena, um Pier Cannon, Thunderbolt, and I think Nightshade.
00:44:46.559 --> 00:44:47.280
Yes, Nightshade.
00:44:47.360 --> 00:44:49.280
And it was this was Alan Moore pitching.
00:44:49.360 --> 00:44:52.239
He was like, Oh, I want to do I want to do this series of these characters who exist.
00:44:52.320 --> 00:44:55.519
And DC wanted to use them as DC characters and basically have them in the universe.
00:44:55.599 --> 00:45:05.599
So they're like, hey man, what if you did this story, but you made analogs for every single one of these characters, and then we got to keep these characters and not fuck them up this badly, like mentally.
00:45:06.000 --> 00:45:12.719
Which how different that story would have been if it was like a part of a canon would have been absolutely wild.
00:45:12.960 --> 00:45:13.599
Like absolutely wild.
00:45:13.920 --> 00:45:22.880
It would have to be the last Charlton comic story, yeah, which is like a very different thing than like Watchmen, its own work and masterpiece and work unto itself.
00:45:23.119 --> 00:45:23.360
Right.
00:45:23.440 --> 00:45:42.639
And I think so the message of this is more than we we need to expect more, and it's not superheroes, and also the the idea of like I love all the stuff with the original Minutemen too, where they're actually talking about like there are queer characters in the original Minutemen who are being ousted or like being seen as communists during like the HUAC, right?
00:45:42.719 --> 00:45:53.679
The House of American Activities investigations that they have like still occur in this timeline, and really living with those characters in a real way and talking about this as like, no, we're gonna treat these people as people.
00:45:53.840 --> 00:45:57.280
And we've been told the entire comic that Ozzie Mandius is the smartest man alive.
00:45:57.360 --> 00:46:00.320
He's thinking literal decades ahead of everyone else.
00:46:00.639 --> 00:46:06.000
Why would he make the mistake every other supervillain makes of telling you his grand plan?
00:46:06.239 --> 00:46:18.400
And it's it's I think this twist is a really perfect example of it is not, it is shocking and surprising, but they literally have been telling you they're gonna do this kind of the whole time.
00:46:18.639 --> 00:46:21.920
You you see Ozamandius a couple scenes before they arrive.
00:46:22.079 --> 00:46:27.920
He goes down to a spe special section of his base and sends off the monster to New York.
00:46:28.000 --> 00:46:34.159
Of course, we don't see the monster, but it says on the clock 1125, 35 minutes before midnight.
00:46:34.400 --> 00:46:36.960
We see him push the button, the the thing goes away.
00:46:37.280 --> 00:46:38.480
He he tells us all.
00:46:38.639 --> 00:46:40.719
We see him putting his whole plan together.
00:46:40.960 --> 00:46:45.840
So it is so satisfying to be like, oh man, you did tell us you were gonna do that.
00:46:46.000 --> 00:46:47.360
Why would they win at the end?
00:46:47.440 --> 00:46:53.920
You've been telling us superheroes are defunct, problematic, and flawed this entire time.
00:46:54.079 --> 00:46:55.199
Why would they succeed in the end?
00:46:55.599 --> 00:46:59.280
Yeah, if they save the day, the book kind of rejects its own premises, right?
00:46:59.519 --> 00:47:05.119
Where like one's like, yeah, you guys got here late, you're not gonna save the day, you're like, Yeah, that's the final, that's the checkmate.
00:47:05.199 --> 00:47:13.199
And like the last issue is like basically those characters in denial, and like basically like accepting, like, oh well, this was never gonna work out for any of us.
00:47:13.280 --> 00:47:18.960
Being a superhero was a stupid idea, except for Rorschach, who's like fuck all of you.
00:47:19.039 --> 00:47:23.840
And like that can't like you know, uh when you're a when you're a teenager, you're like Rorschach's the coolest dude in the world.
00:47:23.920 --> 00:47:33.679
As until you're like, No, but like you can't lie, like in that one in that last issue where everyone's like, Yeah, we'll sell out, we'll kind of buy into what Adrian's selling, and everybody does.
00:47:33.920 --> 00:47:36.400
Night owl, Silk Spectre, you know, uh Dr.
00:47:36.559 --> 00:47:36.880
Manhattan.
00:47:37.119 --> 00:47:39.039
Rorschach's like, I refuse.
00:47:39.280 --> 00:47:39.599
I refuse.
00:47:39.920 --> 00:47:41.199
I refuse, and he leaves.
00:47:41.360 --> 00:47:49.280
And you know, it's it's one thing that like I think the movie really nailed the tragedy of like he's walking the snow, and you're like, you know he's not gonna make it, you know, they're not gonna let him leave.
00:47:49.440 --> 00:47:56.159
You know, it's a beauty of letting, and I think that's what's absolutely brilliant about it, is every character is just being true to themselves.
00:47:56.320 --> 00:48:03.440
In the way that we're talking about the Archer's quest living in the reality of coming back from the dead.
00:48:03.760 --> 00:48:10.480
This comic is living in the reality of if Rorschach was a person and he told you this a million million times, he would rather die.
00:48:10.639 --> 00:48:11.599
So we're going to kill him.
00:48:11.679 --> 00:48:16.800
We're not gonna sleep, and that that is part of the privilege of this being an isolated miniseries, right?
00:48:16.880 --> 00:48:19.039
Which I again, there are certain status quo.
00:48:19.119 --> 00:48:20.719
We don't have to maintain status quo here.
00:48:20.880 --> 00:48:24.800
These comics, these characters are getting put to bed at the end of issue 12.
00:48:24.960 --> 00:48:27.119
So we don't have to worry about it.
00:48:27.280 --> 00:48:31.440
And they were never aroused from that bed ever again for anyone.
00:48:31.599 --> 00:48:32.880
I really loved it.
00:48:33.199 --> 00:48:35.679
I really loved and enjoyed my time with DC Comics.
00:48:36.320 --> 00:48:38.559
Uh no, but you're you're 100% right.
00:48:38.719 --> 00:48:44.639
And yeah, I mean, this is a book I used to read like once or twice every year.
00:48:44.800 --> 00:48:48.159
I obviously like this is one of the great works of of comics.
00:48:48.239 --> 00:48:50.320
It's the great one of the great works of superhero fiction.
00:48:50.400 --> 00:48:52.800
Like, it's it's incredible.
00:48:53.119 --> 00:48:57.119
Um one thing I wanted to ask was like when was the first time you like Red Watch?
00:48:57.360 --> 00:48:58.960
When was your first interaction with the book?
00:48:59.199 --> 00:49:01.360
I actually don't know at this point.
00:49:01.440 --> 00:49:08.639
It was a long, long time ago, but it I I mean it might have been one of those like classic high school reads or like a college read.
00:49:08.880 --> 00:49:25.920
I remember I had uh I had like a social, a really cool social studies teacher started at my school, and you know, me and my buddies Corey and Topenga, like we didn't think that school could be cool, but he taught us that Watchmen was literature, and it really kind of blew my mind.
00:49:26.159 --> 00:49:27.039
First of all, that was Mr.
00:49:27.119 --> 00:49:28.800
Turner, and he was talking about the X-Men.
00:49:29.440 --> 00:49:29.840
Was he?
00:49:29.920 --> 00:49:33.199
Yeah, I think in Girl, I think in Girl Meets World.
00:49:39.360 --> 00:49:42.639
If there's an episode of the Disney Channel show where a teacher is like, you kids need to read Watchmen.
00:49:42.960 --> 00:49:43.920
Maybe it's Dark Knight Return.
00:49:44.159 --> 00:49:44.960
I might just be totally wrong.
00:49:45.199 --> 00:49:46.639
Also, still, I would flip.
00:49:46.800 --> 00:49:50.000
But uh for me, I was uh I was 13 years old.
00:49:50.079 --> 00:49:51.280
I think I was 13.
00:49:51.360 --> 00:49:56.800
Um, I used to go to this beautiful library in Northampton, Massachusetts, every week called Forbes Library.
00:49:57.039 --> 00:50:06.320
After getting the week's new comics, and I would go to Forbes and I would get all of the old classic comics, and I'd ordered Watchmen through the library so they would get it from another library and let me read it.
00:50:06.480 --> 00:50:12.480
And I thought I was gonna get this version you see over here, or if you're watching the video you see over here, the normal graphic novel size.
00:50:12.639 --> 00:50:15.679
They gave me the absolute Watchmen.
00:50:15.920 --> 00:50:20.800
The first time I read Watchmen, I read a like foot-long size version of it.
00:50:20.960 --> 00:50:21.280
Whoa.
00:50:21.440 --> 00:50:28.880
So I got to like I remember laying on my stomach in my room, like at you know, age 13, I'm like reading one chapter a day because that's what somebody had recommended to me.
00:50:29.039 --> 00:50:30.639
And like I'm turning a manuscript.
00:50:30.880 --> 00:50:34.239
Turns a massive tome, and I'm just like, I was fully absorbed.
00:50:34.400 --> 00:50:41.199
Obviously, every other time I read it, I read it normally, but like reading that book for the first time in the biggest format that existed, child to Scott Dunbeer.
00:50:41.280 --> 00:50:43.679
I was like, this is the craziest thing I've ever read.
00:50:43.840 --> 00:50:44.320
Overwhelmingly.
00:50:44.480 --> 00:50:48.719
It's already amazing, but you're like, oh my god, like this is profound.
00:50:48.960 --> 00:50:51.760
I'm walking around this giant book of people like, what's wrong with you?
00:50:51.840 --> 00:50:52.320
Are you okay?
00:50:52.400 --> 00:50:54.239
And I'm like, I'm doing something here.
00:50:54.480 --> 00:50:56.800
Yeah, I don't know when I first would have read it.
00:50:56.880 --> 00:50:58.639
I know I was never assigned to in a class.
00:50:58.719 --> 00:50:59.039
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:50:59.280 --> 00:51:03.519
But I know it would have been like it's so long ago that it's it's just a story I felt like I knew.
00:51:03.679 --> 00:51:12.960
I know I I read it before ever seeing the movie or anything like that, but I I don't know when it would have first come across my desk, I guess to put it another way.
00:51:13.119 --> 00:51:14.400
I will say a credit to that movie.
00:51:14.480 --> 00:51:20.719
Like the the year before that movie came out, I lent my copy of Watch Me Out to like 20 people, and it was the best.
00:51:20.800 --> 00:51:21.760
It was like so fun.
00:51:21.920 --> 00:51:25.519
Like every time somebody would read that comic and come back and be like, we gotta talk about this.
00:51:25.679 --> 00:51:26.639
I'd be like, Yeah, we do.
00:51:26.719 --> 00:51:27.360
It's awesome.
00:51:27.920 --> 00:51:28.880
Um yeah, it's the best.
00:51:28.960 --> 00:51:29.840
It's the best for a reason.
00:51:30.000 --> 00:51:38.880
It's something that got away from me for a couple years because of the movie, and then like came back into my life with the TV show, the David Loff TV show, which I thought was quite excellent.
00:51:39.119 --> 00:51:42.239
Um but yeah, I mean, you know, it's it's a masterpiece for a reason.
00:51:42.320 --> 00:51:43.760
I think you're 100% right.
00:51:43.840 --> 00:51:50.800
The tw the twist is the twist is everything, and the twist is like the last puzzle piece that like makes everything work.
00:51:51.280 --> 00:51:51.519
Yeah.
00:51:51.679 --> 00:51:52.719
It's yeah, I agree.
00:51:52.800 --> 00:51:57.440
I think there it is a level of like uh what other ending could you have?
00:51:57.920 --> 00:52:18.159
So when we talk about the greatest plot twist of all time, you know, whether it's Watchmen, whether it's Archer's Quest, yeah, you know, and I and I come down to my my final decision, I actually have a plot twist of a secret contender with a plot twist that simply has to be brought in.
00:52:18.400 --> 00:52:20.960
Please, welcome to the podcast.
00:52:21.199 --> 00:52:24.960
Oh, you can get it, you can work Jake Tommen!
00:52:25.360 --> 00:52:30.559
Jake Tom and Jake Tommen, Jake One final comment.
00:52:30.719 --> 00:52:31.360
Oh my gosh.
00:52:31.519 --> 00:52:32.239
What is it?
00:52:32.320 --> 00:52:33.599
How could we have anticipated this?
00:52:34.719 --> 00:52:36.960
Your bad attitude might have been a little more joke.
00:52:39.599 --> 00:52:40.960
Has it not come up yet at all?
00:52:41.199 --> 00:52:41.679
It has not.
00:52:41.840 --> 00:52:44.480
Buddies, not even co-workers.
00:52:45.360 --> 00:52:50.639
Captain America, volume five, issue number 14.
00:52:50.960 --> 00:52:56.400
Ed Brewbaker, Steve Epting, Winner Soldier is Bucky Barnes.
00:52:57.119 --> 00:53:00.320
I think that that that thing is telegraphed pretty heavily the whole time.
00:53:00.559 --> 00:53:00.960
Whoa.
00:53:01.840 --> 00:53:03.840
In retrospect, I know I read the book monthly.
00:53:03.920 --> 00:53:04.400
I loved it.
00:53:04.480 --> 00:53:06.239
It's one of my favorite storylines of all time.
00:53:06.480 --> 00:53:09.199
I mean, it like it's also called Setting the Table.
00:53:09.440 --> 00:53:10.559
It's setting the table for sure.
00:53:10.880 --> 00:53:11.119
Yeah.
00:53:11.679 --> 00:53:12.800
Because you have to see that one.
00:53:12.960 --> 00:53:13.599
That's a hard one.
00:53:13.840 --> 00:53:15.440
You can't just bring that back cold.
00:53:15.679 --> 00:53:16.559
No, you can't bring it back cold.
00:53:18.159 --> 00:53:20.159
But no, that I love that storyline.
00:53:20.239 --> 00:53:20.960
It's a good one.
00:53:21.119 --> 00:53:25.119
It's also tough because like that year, oddly, and I think it was purely coincidental.
00:53:25.280 --> 00:53:29.760
That year uh he comes back as we're a soldier and Jason Todd come back as the Red Hood.
00:53:29.920 --> 00:53:31.039
Very similar.
00:53:32.159 --> 00:53:33.039
You work at Marvel Comics.
00:53:33.119 --> 00:53:33.360
We get it.
00:53:33.440 --> 00:53:34.719
We know where your brother was buying.
00:53:35.440 --> 00:53:36.400
I I agree.
00:53:36.639 --> 00:53:40.239
Pretty, pretty damn good one because that was the thing that was off limits.
00:53:40.400 --> 00:53:43.360
There were three characters you never brought back, or four.
00:53:43.679 --> 00:53:51.119
You never brought back Uncle Ben, Gwen Stacy, Jason Todd, or Bucky Barnes, and only two of those characters would come back to your dead.
00:53:51.199 --> 00:53:53.760
And one of them comes from an alternate reality now.
00:53:54.480 --> 00:54:04.719
When you started talking, I thought you were going to talk about the infamous Hail Hydra Captain America twist, which we had actually discussed off-camera about like when you were looking at options for what to bring.
00:54:05.119 --> 00:54:15.039
And it's really interesting looking at like I think a character like Captain America who has such a way of being, to be able to like twist him in interesting ways, is like obviously very controversial.
00:54:15.119 --> 00:54:19.039
And it's that line between like controversy and real-world twists.
00:54:19.119 --> 00:54:24.480
And I think the thing about bringing back a character like Bucky is the meta of it, right?
00:54:24.559 --> 00:54:31.519
Like the editorial rules of like you can't bring these guys back and then being able to do it, you know, getting a little sneaky one over like everything.
00:54:32.239 --> 00:54:41.519
I think the thing about Bucky coming back though is like not bring him, like not bringing him back, we found out like was halting a bunch of stories from happening.
00:54:41.840 --> 00:54:50.480
From that story, a bunch of stories happened where, like, you know, the thing I'll say with the Hydra twist, while like, you know, in the moment it worked, I'm sure it works really well for some people.
00:54:50.559 --> 00:54:57.760
It goes to the thing we were talking about at the top of the episode where it's like it is shocking, but then after you're shocked, you're like, does that fit for me?
00:54:58.000 --> 00:55:04.559
It is a character returning from the dead in a big way, and it's also a character, it's a corruption of innocence.
00:55:04.639 --> 00:55:08.880
It's taking these classic characters in the same way that it was originally going to be the Charlton comics.
00:55:08.960 --> 00:55:15.519
It's taking Bucky, this little kid from a different era that we had not had in comics for a long, long, long time.
00:55:15.760 --> 00:55:17.840
You know, like before Captain America came.
00:55:17.920 --> 00:55:19.360
He was never even in Marvel Comics, right?
00:55:19.519 --> 00:55:22.079
Bucky was just in the old ones before Captain America was brought back.
00:55:22.400 --> 00:55:24.000
Yeah, he only showed up in like flashbacks and stuff.
00:55:24.239 --> 00:55:25.599
Yeah, so he wasn't ever brought back.
00:55:25.679 --> 00:55:33.599
And then to say Bucky's here, Bucky's the winter soldier, it's this it's this super cool, violent, new adult version of Bucky, you know?
00:55:33.840 --> 00:55:34.800
It's this new era.
00:55:35.039 --> 00:55:40.800
This long-haired Bucky is uh it's kind of both of your guys' twists in one, really.
00:55:42.239 --> 00:55:45.760
So is this your way to try and win the episode, even though you weren't contending?
00:55:46.719 --> 00:55:47.679
I haven't picked a favorite yet.
00:55:48.960 --> 00:55:55.440
The Winter Soldier also takes on kind of a comedian-esque role in the Marvel Universe where he's like where he's like this like assassin who takes people out.
00:55:55.599 --> 00:55:57.199
Like it's there's a lot of parallels there.
00:55:57.360 --> 00:56:03.039
I mean, the other thing I'll say about that, I mean, like, I think The Winter Soldier is by far the best modern Captain America story.
00:56:03.119 --> 00:56:05.199
It's the start of the best Captain America run ever.
00:56:05.280 --> 00:56:11.840
And obviously, like The Winter Soldier has become such a pop culture phenomenon in a way that I never expected.
00:56:12.000 --> 00:56:18.719
The fact that the two longest lasting Marvel Universe movie characters are Loki and The Winter Soldier is nuts.
00:56:19.760 --> 00:56:32.159
Yeah, you know, I also think it's one of those where like Ed Brewbaker and Steve Epting make it look so easy and so obvious that you're like, well, of course, Bucky was gonna come back at some point.
00:56:32.239 --> 00:56:35.280
Like this was obviously going to happen, but like, no.
00:56:35.679 --> 00:56:45.760
And there's so many ways it could have gone so wrong, been so pat or whatever, that the fact that it's had so much legs, like it's been so influential.
00:56:46.079 --> 00:56:54.960
I mean, uh to to compliment someone who works Marvel, Tom Brevor, I I don't think Bucky would have ever come back unless the story was as amazing as The Words or Soldier.
00:56:55.039 --> 00:56:57.280
I think it was like an over my dead body proposition.
00:56:57.519 --> 00:57:06.480
Yeah, I would love to have been a part of the, I'm sure, numerous debates and drafts of like that outline and pitch to see what it finally took to get that to happen.
00:57:06.800 --> 00:57:08.400
Because I'm sure it was a hard one fight.
00:57:08.639 --> 00:57:12.239
I'm sure it was probably one of the most contentious topics at a Marvel Summit ever.
00:57:12.639 --> 00:57:13.599
Bring back Bucky.
00:57:13.679 --> 00:57:17.199
But again, it led to a bunch of great stories, was certainly shocking and punchy in the moment.
00:57:17.440 --> 00:57:19.440
Weird that those two characters came back at the same time.
00:57:19.599 --> 00:57:23.440
I'm sure there's some kind of parallel logic there about bring back your favorite dead boy.
00:57:23.679 --> 00:57:27.840
Uh but uh yeah, no, I think the Winter Soldier twist is a damn damn good one.
00:57:28.000 --> 00:57:31.199
I think, I think it's still probably not as good as Watchmen though.
00:57:31.920 --> 00:57:36.880
Okay, so it is time to pick the best plot twist in all of comics.
00:57:37.119 --> 00:57:39.920
Um Do we have something that means a lot today?
00:57:40.320 --> 00:57:42.400
The Grimara Archer's quest?
00:57:42.719 --> 00:57:44.239
That is an excellent twist.
00:57:44.400 --> 00:57:54.400
Uh uh about this emotional, this this really like change in Oliver's character, where you know, is he just a dead boy beat dad to Roy or is he a deadbeat dad to Connor as well?
00:57:59.280 --> 00:58:04.800
Do we have Watchman, uh the most seminal book in comics history?
00:58:05.039 --> 00:58:12.800
Ellen just wanting an easy victory, bringing a distress bringing a giant exploding squid to an aero fight.
00:58:13.199 --> 00:58:15.760
I'm gym halpering into the camera so hard right now.
00:58:16.320 --> 00:58:27.039
The pitch, you know, the the twist there is not just a twist in that story, it is a fulfillment of the theme of the book and ultimately what comics were going to be maturing and growing and changing into.
00:58:27.280 --> 00:58:36.639
You know, this rejection of these classic cartoony uh tropes that we have grown accustomed to and maturing into the next era.
00:58:36.960 --> 00:58:49.440
Uh or is it the winter soldier, this, you know, bringing back this kid long thought dead, uh creating this new character that's become a huge part of Marvel lore?
00:58:49.760 --> 00:58:52.800
Uh and the answer is, of course, it's Watchmen.
00:58:52.960 --> 00:58:54.400
It's always been Watchmen.
00:58:55.039 --> 00:58:56.320
It's always Watchmen.
00:58:57.199 --> 00:58:59.039
And this is what we're talking about inevitable.
00:58:59.119 --> 00:59:00.719
It can't always be surprising, but it can't be.
00:59:00.960 --> 00:59:01.760
But it should be inevitable.
00:59:01.920 --> 00:59:03.039
It should be inevitable with that.
00:59:03.519 --> 00:59:07.599
The greatest plot twist issue of all time is Watchmen number 11.
00:59:08.480 --> 00:59:10.639
I think we should put a moratorium on Watchmen for these.
00:59:12.480 --> 00:59:13.519
I think that's fair.
00:59:20.079 --> 00:59:21.440
Hey, thanks for listening.
00:59:21.599 --> 00:59:29.199
If you liked hearing our thoughts on other comics, you should check out our comics, available at any local comic book store or online at idwpublishing.com.