WEBVTT
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Welcome to Superlatives, the show where comics go head to head.
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Every episode we pick a superlative theme.
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This week its best horror issue.
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Two of our editors each nominate a comic they think deserves the title, then step into the ring to make their case.
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When the arguments are done, our moderator, me, delivers the final verdict, deciding which comic walks away with this episode's superlative.
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That's just how Jake always talks.
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Yeah.
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The question was, how is your day, man?
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Well, let's introduce our players.
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To my right, Ellen Boner.
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Ellen.
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Hi, I'm Ellen.
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I'm an associate editor here at IDW.
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I'm also the games manager at IDW, working on books like The Godzilla role-playing game.
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Will that games experience give her a heads up against our other player, Jake Williams?
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Hey, I'm Jake Williams.
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I work at IDW.
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And I'm Jake Thomas.
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I also work at IDW.
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And I'm the judge, jury, and executioner for this episode.
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What are we talking about?
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We're talking about horror.
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We're talking about best horror issue.
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Thank you.
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Yeah.
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Oh, insane.
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That's how connected we are here.
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Incredible.
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Are you guys a fan of horror in general?
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Do you watch a lot of horror things?
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I'm a huge horror fan.
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Big horror fan.
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Great pick, then.
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Great pick for.
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I could tell that about you.
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Constantly walking fake blood dripping down my mouth.
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Hello, friend.
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You know, I had, when I was younger, I was like deathly afraid of horror movies to the degree that I was afraid I'd be at a friend's house at like a sleepover and they'd like put a horror movie on.
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Like I was afraid of that happening.
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Like just in the abstract, nervous that could occur.
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And then, you know, there was a friend eventually in high school that made me watch paranormal activity, and I was like, okay, I can handle this.
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Like, this isn't this isn't too bad.
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I I think I was so afraid of paranormal activity in particular, because they had that huge ad campaign that it was like, watching this is gonna ruin your life.
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And then one of like kind of the mean kids in school, he was kind of like like bully adjacent, but not like a bully.
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Um, we kind of I think my school is too small for a bully.
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I think it would just be too much of like a why you're being mean to one other kid.
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What are you doing?
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But uh, but one of the kids that was kind of like tougher, he watched Paranormal Activity and told us all he slept with the lights on for like two weeks.
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Like and he said he had like a knife under his pillow, slept with all the lights on.
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So I was like, I don't think I can handle it if that's what it did, if it did that to you.
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Eventually watched it, thought it was fine, went through a period where I was like seeing every horror movie that would come out.
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And then I realized I was like just more scared of things during that time period.
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Like I think it infected my brain.
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I was just made you jumpy, skittish, yeah.
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So I have not watched as many recently, and I feel less afraid of the night.
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I I really like horror, but I am also very sporadic and picky.
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Um, I don't I think really I'll just come out and say it.
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I'm an elitist.
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I like a little prestige horror.
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I like a weird foreign film horror.
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People really turned on this take.
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You're gonna get some negative comments.
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Really turned on the idea of elevated horror.
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They don't like that term.
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Here's the thing.
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I I wouldn't, I have never even heard that term before.
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I think all horror is great for everyone, but for me, I'm saying my personal taste is like, and I still like I just my my thing is I struggle with um gore and like jump scare horror.
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Like I find that too unsettling to watch.
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Like it's actually just because it is so scary because it's trying to be scary, even though it's like you know, big box.
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Like we went and saw um Final Destination, that doesn't work.
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I'm just gonna keep trying that the episode.
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I once heard a fact that people are more jumpy if they feel guilty about something, and I'm a very jumpy person.
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Well, it's just like, yeah, it's like a common movie trope where the guy who's like done something wrong.
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It's like, what was that?
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Yeah, two creams and my coffee, please.
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Yeah, but I like we saw Final Destination in theaters, whatever the most recent one, Legacy or Myth, the one that is like going across multiple time periods.
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And it was the first time I'd seen a movie like that.
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And I had to leave the theater because it was too scary for me, because the gore is too much.
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But I really like like a slow burn, psychological, emotional drama, horror.
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Like I'm I'm into that sort of stuff.
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Like one of my favorite horror movies was the original Let the Right One in.
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Um, so I don't, I it's not my me saying those are better.
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I'm just saying my personal taste tends to lend me toward you gotta look for it.
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I could be totally wrong about this.
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It feels like we have like a new type of horror movie that's sprung up in the past like 20 years, which is like the horror blockbuster, like the really glossy horror blockbuster that kind of came with like the uh I'm forgetting all the names.
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So there's the one that starts with the I and the ones that start with the C kind of horror movies.
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There's uh Conjuring, the Conjuring franchise and the Insidious franchise.
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Thank you, producer Raina.
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I feel like those two kind of kicked off this wave of like really glossy, blockbustery horror movies.
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But where before that, you know, one thing that's cool about horror is it's a genre that for like upstart filmmakers get into, where you can make something really kind of like lo-fi horror.
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And even like the Sam Raimi, like Evil Dead stuff, right?
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Like even that stuff that can be get get more popular as it goes, kind of had this like grungy vibe to it.
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And if you watch like the older slasher movies, you know, those things can get a little bit glossier as you go, especially once you hit like Scream, which is kind of like a big budget reproduction kind of parodying the ones that came before.
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But it definitely had this kind of like B movie vibe to it for a long time.
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I think it's newer now that we have these like multi, multi, multi-million dollar horror movies that are these like temp pole franchises.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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I mean, there was the time in the 70s where you would have things like The Omen or uh, you know, The Exorcist, which were pretty prestige.
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That's kind of past what I'm talking about.
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Where that's kind of like uh like a prestigious director making like a big kind of like, but yeah, it certainly in the in a sense is blockbustery, but less the kind of like very glossy down the middle as you're just kind of like horror.
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But yeah, it seems like it used to be kind of the two ends of it, where it's like here's a very prestige, very like uh big name director made a movie that kind of was scary, or it was like we gave a teenager$20 and he made the slasher movie.
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He stole a photo, like a film camera from his older brother and went out in the woods and the scariest thing you've ever seen.
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Where now we have those like uh, you know, if you watch The Conjuring, and there are these movies that I think some horror purists don't love, which are very like uh jump scare focused.
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You know, there's a lot of like these really like high budget jump scares coming at you, which that's kind of the horror movies that I feel like I kind of kind of came of age watching was these kind of like higher budget, higher profile horror films with the post-paranormal activity, post-conjuring stuff.
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Yeah, I think one of the first like R movies I ever saw was one of the original Final Destination, like Final Destination III or something like that.
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Um, and then some other horror movie, which I couldn't remember, that had all these CGI beatles eating people under throne.
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I was thinking like Ringo.
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They're really scary.
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It was my first.
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Um yeah, but I think horror, one thing I'm really excited to talk about today is like there's so many different flavors of horror, and I think they all have really different purposes.
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And I think there's a wide range of like horror adventure, gothic adventure, which is like playing on more classical horror themes.
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Like I like like uh like things that use Dracula but aren't really scary.
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So it's like technically horror because it's using a lineage horror character, but it's not meant to scare you or anything.
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Flag on the plate, you stole my talking point.
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I told you in advance it was my talking point and you stole it.
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But uh, but yeah, so it's this thing we've been talking about.
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Show me the point.
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Which is this, like, this especially in horror comics, what is this idea of like, is it meant to scare you or not?
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Or does it just include imagery that we associate with horror?
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Like you could have a kid's humor book about a skeleton and a ghost.
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I wouldn't call that horror, but if you put that skeleton and a ghost in an action kind of like action thriller environment, people then kind of are like, is it horror?
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And I would say no, because it's not trying to scare you.
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And comics are like that.
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I think a lot of things in comics are classified as horror if a serial killer is involved, if a uh spooky person's involved, like you could do an action Dracula comic, which we're putting out, but I wouldn't necessarily call horror because I don't know if the purpose of that book is to scare you.
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Yeah.
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That's exactly what I was thinking about with Operation Iron Coffin, where that is exactly what I would call a gothic adventure.
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So it's playing on like a gothic character like Godzilla, but just in an action drama setting.
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And like there's gore in it, there's scary stuff in it, but I don't think it's really meant to put you in a position of fear.
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And that's one thing I think is really interesting about horror as a genre in some of the subcategories, is it's one of the few genres that's trying to make you, the person experiencing it, feel not just empathy, but it's trying to actually scare you.
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Like in a weird way, it's not trying to be like if you watch a rom-com or read a romance novel, I don't know if that's really trying to make you be in love with the characters or feel love.
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Yeah, I think I think it's I was like, I'm totally agreeing with you.
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But then I think when you hit romance, that's maybe one of the few genres that is doing it.
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But uh, I think that horror is like comedy where it's trying to like elicit such a physical reaction from you.
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You know, like if you're watching a horror movie, you might jump out of your seat, you might scream, you know.
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I I think it's one of the exact I think the scream and the laugh are kind of the two things where it is eliciting this vocal reaction that very few, you know, even if you are falling in love in a romance book, you might be saying, you're not gonna say that out loud.
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Like start responding to the character.
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But uh, I think one could argue romance is eliciting a physical reaction if they're doing their jobs correctly.
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But uh I think with horror and specifically in horror comics, I think comics are one of the hardest mediums to actually scare the reader.
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And I think so much of what is called a horror comic and can earn that title for various definitions, isn't always passing my kind of personal definition of it.
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Because, you know, with a comic book, I think horror, especially horror in a film, is utilizing the control it has over the audience.
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It's a captive audience watching a movie.
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You can't affect the flow of the film, you can't kind of glance forward and see if a jump scare is coming.
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You're just watching it.
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So the director has you in the palm of his hand and he can jerk you around to different things and show you a horrific image that you have to look at, you know, unless you have your hands up covering your eyes, but you're very much you have no control, which is a perfect place for horror.
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I think comic books as a medium give the reader more control than just about any other medium, right?
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So you can stay on a panel for as long as you want.
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You can kind of brush over a panel really quickly, you can kind of like flip ahead and see what's coming.
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The reader has so much control, it's hard to get ahead of them, I think, on a comic book.
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So I I really only had a comic book effectively jump scare me like one or two times.
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There's like, I think it is an issue of Department of Truth where kind of out of nowhere you like turn the page to this like horrific image like right up in your face.
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Oh, yeah, with the actually use the demon from the basement, I think has a jump scare in that.
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The I don't know if I'm I don't know if I'm thinking of what you're thinking of, but there was a moment of like a trucker that stranded or something, and like you can see someone like they like effectively used like kind of visual techniques of like you see it on one page coming closer and closer to you, and then I think it like leaves the frame for a second, and then you turn the page, it's right in your face, you know.
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So it really is doing like the film language jump scare really effectively.
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Um, but other than that, I I really can count on one hand the amount of times I've been scared by a comic.
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I think today, you know, I'm I'm doing Ice Cream Man, which is a fantastic book written by W.
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Maxwell Prince.
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It is uh the art is done by Martin Martin Murazzo, and the colors are Chris O'Halloran.
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It's a fantastic comic.
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It's my favorite comic book that is dubbed a horror comic for a lot of reasons, but it's not a book that I'm always being left like scared by.
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Instead, it's just imbuing this insane sense of dread into me as I'm reading it, just making me feel like really kind of existentially bummed out as I'm reading it in a way.
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And sometimes it's scary and sometimes you're kind of freaked out, but that's not typically what they're like explicitly going for.
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And I talk about my issue specifically, there's a couple reasons that I chose it because there's a couple uh panels that I feel like are effectively kind of like enacting control over you and forcing you into one fixed location and kind of changing what you're seeing and playing with the imagery there.
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But yeah, I think that if I had had longer to really process and think about this, I would have loved to find a comic that like was going full in on scares to a way that you're like, I don't know if I can finish this, like with a horror movie, like you're you're desperately trying to look away, but the panels are too scary.
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It's too much.
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Yeah, I I agree.
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I think uh the power of comics is that they can't force you to go forward, but once you've seen it, you can't unsee it.
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So so much of it has to do with the visual, so much of it has to do with like the top book I'm talking about today, Black Hole by Charles Burns.
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That book is a book that I first read like six or seven years ago.
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And then I've thought about it a lot since.
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It like sticks with you.
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I think that's sort of the the the tone of horror, like really effective horror in comics is that it just lingers.
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It like really gets its little fingers into your brain and hooks in.
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Um I'm really excited because I think these are they're different books, but they're also similar in some interesting ways that I can't wait to kind of get into.
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Yeah, I think one thing about uh to to compare it to like literature to like prose, I think that one thing that prose has is I think it gets into your brain even more, right?
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Where like as you're reading it, it's really like incepting you with imagery, where in some way the fact that you know that's conjuring an image in your brain, which can be really scary if it's a scary image.
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It's not scary at all.
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That's pretty scary.
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How do we get in there?
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I don't want it to be.
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I don't want that out of my brain.
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But when you're reading a comic book, I think the art almost serves to separate you in some ways.
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Like I think they can draw a really scary picture, but I can close my eyes.
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I don't want to look at that if I want to.
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But I do think the the there's this inherent separation of the art style, of the rendering there that's going on.
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Where again, I so I think it's like while it can hook in and can stay for a while, there's just something different than what prose is able to do.
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I think I've been more scared by prose than I've been scared by comics in my life.
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Yeah, because it's making you conjure that for yourself.
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And like you're not just seeing.
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Like a lot of time in terms of like the text, theoretically, the dialogue would be auditory.
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And we don't often look at the sort of things that pros might sometimes do where they're living in all the senses and speaking like highly metaphorically about how something might feel, where pros they have to do that, they have to tell you how the character is feeling through like their internal dialogue and stuff.
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We can't just look at them on the page.
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So it it it does a good job of like really getting into your psyche in a you know, talking about the sound of it all, like that is horror film's kind of most effective tool in making the viewer scared is the sound.
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I mean, they've often like taken kind of like horror kind of like audio scapes and mapped it on to like a funny movie, and it's like, oh, this looks the scene is scary now because it has this kind of like eerie music playing in the background and creepy sound effects that are happening.
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And similarly, you can re-edit a horror scene and add in kind of like silly little Looney Tune stuff, and it's suddenly not as scary anymore.
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So comic not being in control of that aspect is another kind of like tool removed from the arsenal.
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And I do think we should start to build back up things comics can do, but I think it's like honestly, it's more interesting to start with stripped away, because I do think they start comics inter horror kind of backfooted, even though like horror has been such a long time uh genre in comics, right?
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Going back to EC stuff or all like the pre-comics code stuff.
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And I think probably were desensitized to a lot of like horror imagery.
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Where I think back then, if you're a kid reading comics, that's one of the only places you can see a like grotesque monster.
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You know, you're not seeing that.
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Yeah, it's movies probably weren't as effective, especially back then.
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Like if we're talking like mid-20th century, the movies weren't as effective at uh projecting like uh real horrific imagery on the screen.
00:16:47.279 --> 00:16:49.279
They didn't have the technology yet to do something like that.
00:16:49.440 --> 00:16:54.000
So the scariest thing you might have ever seen might have been a drawing in a comic book, right?
00:16:54.159 --> 00:16:59.679
Where now that we've seen every possible image in existence, I think we're desensitized to that.
00:16:59.840 --> 00:17:04.480
And we've had movies that really make these things feel real in a way that a comic isn't able to do.
00:17:04.720 --> 00:17:12.960
And another thing, talking about sound, another big thing that comics can do to some extent, but movies haven't spades is movement, obviously.
00:17:13.119 --> 00:17:15.920
And movement, I think, is so much a part of what makes horror.
00:17:16.079 --> 00:17:21.359
Like, how often have you watched a character actor in a horror movie and it's the way they moved?
00:17:21.440 --> 00:17:21.599
Yeah.
00:17:21.839 --> 00:17:22.000
Right?
00:17:22.160 --> 00:17:27.440
It's the way everything was so like moving around them, and they were the one still thing in the image.
00:17:27.599 --> 00:17:36.079
Like these are things that it's really fascinating to specifically to talk about these two, because I think these two comics in particular are still and silent.
00:17:36.319 --> 00:17:46.880
They feel quiet and they feel very, very like little still images, which is something that is true for these artists on in like all the things they do.
00:17:46.960 --> 00:17:50.720
They have this sense of like pristine stillness that is very unsettling.
00:17:50.880 --> 00:17:56.880
Whereas like most comics across the spectrum are always trying to be like, make it look dynamic, make it look look it's like it's moving.
00:17:57.039 --> 00:18:04.079
This it's like just a little like a snapshot of these moments of staged characters that look really unsettling.
00:18:04.480 --> 00:18:05.200
It's funny to imagine.
00:18:05.279 --> 00:18:09.680
Like, I think obviously the artists are intending that, but it's funny to imagine the artist hearing this and be like, hey, wait a second.
00:18:11.200 --> 00:18:12.240
What the heck?
00:18:13.119 --> 00:18:19.039
Um, but no, I completely agree because that's part of you know what tools do comics have in their arsenal, right?
00:18:19.119 --> 00:18:22.799
And I think we'll just kind of casually now transition to talking about the issues themselves.
00:18:23.039 --> 00:18:31.759
But I think that both Black Hole and Ice Cream Man, they are rendering a world that is unsettling every panel of it, right?
00:18:31.920 --> 00:18:38.480
Just every single image you're being seen, you're be you're being shown has some sort of like, God, that's an odd person.
00:18:38.640 --> 00:18:40.160
That's a strange-looking person.
00:18:40.240 --> 00:18:45.599
They've created this world that you have to live in with them that is just, yeah, it's an art style thing, right?
00:18:45.680 --> 00:18:54.720
It's just every aspect of this world that you have to like step into is a little bit strange, a little fuzzy, a little bit unscraft.
00:18:55.039 --> 00:18:56.559
Or a little too clean line.
00:18:56.960 --> 00:18:57.759
A little bit too clean line.
00:18:58.000 --> 00:19:04.480
They're both are very clean line comics, which I think does create sort of like an uncanny valley effect in some ways, you know?
00:19:04.559 --> 00:19:14.480
It makes just like even a normal looking human in the ice cream man universe kind of has a little bit of like a strangeness to them, you know, has something that's a little unsettling about them.
00:19:14.799 --> 00:19:15.839
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
00:19:16.079 --> 00:19:18.240
So yeah, so you know, talking about Ice Cream Man.
00:19:18.640 --> 00:19:21.519
So the reason I picked this issue, well, let me talk about the series for a second.
00:19:21.599 --> 00:19:28.240
So Ice Cream Man is this anthology series where every single issue is a completely different cast of characters, right?
00:19:28.319 --> 00:19:32.480
It's an anthology where each issue is its own little episode of the book.
00:19:32.720 --> 00:19:40.960
And it's tied together by this kind of like it the clown-esque figure, a sort of like a dark, like uh Rod Serling, that's his name, right?
00:19:41.039 --> 00:19:51.200
Rod Serling, where it is uh this character known as the ice cream man that is in some of the issues, is not in some of the issues, is kind of around the edges of a lot of the comic.
00:19:51.440 --> 00:19:59.599
And this character is kind of like manipulating people's lives and bringing this kind of like fantastical horror element into the worlds they're living in.
00:19:59.759 --> 00:20:07.920
And what's really fun about this comic, I think, in kind of a classic comics way, is like you truly never know what you're getting into in each issue of the book.
00:20:08.000 --> 00:20:17.920
And that's what's so exciting where we live in kind of a decompressed comic world where like, you know, Spider-Man's going to be fighting the same villain and dealing with the same problems for multiple issues at a time.
00:20:18.000 --> 00:20:25.039
So, like if you're mid-arc, you kind of have a sense of what that next comic's gonna be, but Ice Cream Man keeps you on the toe, your toes constantly.
00:20:25.200 --> 00:20:31.920
You never know what's coming, and more interestingly than that, you never know what form they're going to tell you the story in.
00:20:32.079 --> 00:20:38.240
So this book has, you know, an early issue that's like a palindrome that you can read front to back or back to front.
00:20:38.319 --> 00:20:41.680
You know, it has an issue that's just kind of like randomly in Spanish.
00:20:41.759 --> 00:20:46.880
Um, it has issues that are like uh full splash pages the entire time.
00:20:47.039 --> 00:20:51.519
It has one issue that's meant to seem like a like a tutorial that it's kind of taking you through.
00:20:51.599 --> 00:21:04.319
Uh, and that's ramped all the way up to they have an issue now, an issue of the book that it is a deck of playing cards, and each card has one panel on it, and you just like one by one kind of like deal out the issue.
00:21:04.559 --> 00:21:16.720
Uh one of my favorite issues is the one that it's um a collect it's it's written to look like a book of monsters, like a monster uh etymology is it etymology book or uh maybe.
00:21:16.799 --> 00:21:17.680
Yeah, I don't mean that.
00:21:17.759 --> 00:21:18.000
Yeah, yeah.
00:21:18.319 --> 00:21:22.079
But there's this book, and I I accidentally left that single issue on an airplane.
00:21:22.160 --> 00:21:22.240
Yeah.
00:21:22.559 --> 00:21:26.400
And I feel really mad for whoever was like going through night, because what a terrible thing is.
00:21:26.559 --> 00:21:27.519
It's like a bestiary, isn't it?
00:21:27.680 --> 00:21:28.480
Yeah, it's like a bestiary.
00:21:28.720 --> 00:21:32.640
Like they find I really love the idea of somebody like finding that in the background.
00:21:32.880 --> 00:21:33.680
It's like you're taking a lot of it.
00:21:34.400 --> 00:21:42.079
It feels like and that's what a fun thing about a horror book in general is like feeling like a magical item, like feeling like you found something from like a different universe, you know?
00:21:42.319 --> 00:21:46.079
I think that can be the power of a physical product, right?
00:21:46.160 --> 00:21:47.519
Where it can feel really magical.
00:21:47.680 --> 00:21:51.680
I remember that uh um uh man, I'm forgetting his name.
00:21:51.759 --> 00:21:55.039
Uh the WTF podcast Mark uh Mark Marin.
00:21:55.119 --> 00:21:55.759
Jeez, wow.
00:21:56.000 --> 00:21:59.119
I feel like being a podcast on a podcast is like being two beers deep.
00:21:59.279 --> 00:22:00.960
What is all We call is gone.
00:22:01.599 --> 00:22:03.759
Come on, the person that I've said probably a thousand times.
00:22:03.920 --> 00:22:09.039
But Mark Marion was during his interview with Neil Gaiman, was talking about Sandman.
00:22:09.200 --> 00:22:18.240
And Mark was describing a time of his life where he found Sandman and was so kind of strung out on drugs at the time that he was like, Yeah, man, I thought it was real.
00:22:18.799 --> 00:22:26.960
I think that's a really fun thing that like it can feel like a relic from like a different universe if you do the product right, which I think Sandman does the product really well.
00:22:27.039 --> 00:22:33.759
Uh it's a really excellent little issue that you get that really feels like something special or mystical or hor horrific, you know.
00:22:33.839 --> 00:22:37.839
And at its worst, when it's the at its scariest, I'm kind of like, I don't know if I want this in my house.
00:22:38.000 --> 00:22:38.319
You know?
00:22:38.559 --> 00:22:41.839
Can can you tell us what is the exact issue you picked and tell us what happens now?
00:22:42.319 --> 00:22:43.440
Issue 18.
00:22:43.680 --> 00:22:46.640
Um, it's called, I think, Watch as it all recedes.
00:22:47.119 --> 00:22:52.880
And this issue finds a man on his deathbed as he's starting to lose all of his memories.
00:22:53.039 --> 00:23:08.720
And the part of the issue that I thought was most effective for horror for actually trying to scare you, is that a lot of the issue is shown from his perspective, kind of a fixed perspective, as you're like uh his POV uh looking down at his feet on his bed.
00:23:08.880 --> 00:23:12.880
And you see his children come in to talk to him, you see like the nurse coming to talk to him.
00:23:13.039 --> 00:23:30.960
And in these panels, never typically not the focal point, at least not the first time, which I think is the most effective bit of horror in this, is like you see the nurse, and over the nurse's shoulder is this like horrific gremlin face that, like, I think because of the way they do it, where like you kind of see the panel first and notice the gremlin second.
00:23:31.440 --> 00:23:37.359
Depending on how your brain works, it's looking at that panel, it could be a jump scare where you're like, yes, my brain's registering nurse.
00:23:37.440 --> 00:23:38.079
Oh, what is that?
00:23:38.160 --> 00:23:46.000
You know, and it's kind of an effective bit of horror, kind of like hiding the scare within the panel, making the person feel safe, and then you notice the second.
00:23:46.480 --> 00:23:48.079
How long has it been watching the end of it?
00:23:48.319 --> 00:23:48.400
Yeah.
00:23:48.880 --> 00:24:06.480
So I think there's some really effective work where you know Martine effectively takes control of the reader by forcing them into this fixed perspective and then changing what they're being shown from this location, maybe lulling them into a fence, uh a false sense of security, and then suddenly they're like, oh wait, no, in that panel there's this thing.
00:24:06.559 --> 00:24:07.759
That's so scary, you know?
00:24:08.079 --> 00:24:18.559
So that's kind of why I picked this issue specifically, is I think it uses that little uh game really well to actually have a couple moments that I think do lean into just fear.
00:24:18.880 --> 00:24:31.839
I'd be really interested to look through the art again and just Ice Cream Man in general, and most of these horror issues is how often they are like bringing the camera so close that you can't even see the full figure.
00:24:32.000 --> 00:24:39.039
Like I think there are quite a few panels in this where it's like the person's head is slightly cut off because they're like not fitting within the box of the main character's perspective.
00:24:39.359 --> 00:24:40.240
So I don't know.
00:24:40.400 --> 00:24:48.480
I think there's only a couple times we see like a full shot of the goblin every other time, it's like right up on the frame, it feels like, or really far away, so you can't see it.
00:24:48.720 --> 00:24:48.960
Yeah.
00:24:49.119 --> 00:24:49.359
Yeah.
00:24:49.599 --> 00:24:53.359
But yeah, so then the issue just kind of follows him as he's kind of diving back into his memories.
00:24:53.440 --> 00:25:07.359
And this little gremlin is kind of like as he's trying to remember, it also utilizes kind of like a uh kind of like uh untrustworthy narration where the narrator is kind of forgetting words and they're trying to piece together what they're saying.
00:25:07.440 --> 00:25:12.000
So they use the wrong word for something, or there might be missing words inside of a caption box.
00:25:12.160 --> 00:25:22.000
So it's kind of a really effective thing when you have like that unreliable narrator that's kind of like uh you don't even feel safe with the person telling you the story, I think is an effective thing.
00:25:22.319 --> 00:25:24.319
I thought the narration was really, really impressive.
00:25:24.480 --> 00:25:26.880
I thought the way that he managed probably better than your book, even, right?
00:25:26.960 --> 00:25:29.359
Oh yeah, probably like she admits it.
00:25:29.920 --> 00:25:30.480
Game over.
00:25:31.519 --> 00:25:42.480
Um but the way that it would like break across the panel, so it would like stop at the middle, like stop mid-sentence after a word, and then restart on the next panel on the next page two words back.
00:25:42.720 --> 00:25:48.400
And you it really makes you have that sense of like restarting your sentence, trying to remember where you were at.
00:25:48.480 --> 00:25:56.880
It really is reflective of if you've ever talked to somebody who's dealing with memory loss, like that sense of them trying to catch up to like where was I and like grabbing onto phrases.
00:25:57.039 --> 00:25:58.559
And I thought that was really effectively done.
00:25:58.799 --> 00:26:00.480
Uh, do you want to tell us about black hole?
00:26:00.720 --> 00:26:01.359
Yes.
00:26:01.759 --> 00:26:07.200
So Black Hole is a book by Charles Burns, written and illustrated.
00:26:07.359 --> 00:26:10.960
Uh, it originally came out some crazy dates to throw out.
00:26:11.039 --> 00:26:16.559
It is a 12-issue miniseries that came out in single issues between 1995 and 2005.
00:26:16.799 --> 00:26:17.039
Whoa.
00:26:17.279 --> 00:26:19.200
So it came out over the course of a decade.
00:26:19.359 --> 00:26:22.960
Um, and I tried as much as I could to find like publication history.
00:26:23.039 --> 00:26:25.599
Like I wanted to find the actual dates for when the single issues came out.
00:26:25.680 --> 00:26:27.519
And it was really hard to kind of parse that.
00:26:27.599 --> 00:26:33.440
But what I was able to find is that the first four issues were originally published by Kitchen Sink Press.
00:26:33.519 --> 00:26:39.440
And then it was later picked up picked up by Fantagraphics who republished the first four issues and then published the rest of it.
00:26:39.519 --> 00:26:44.480
And then the collection that you see here was actually by Pantheon Books that collected the full thing.
00:26:44.720 --> 00:26:58.960
So it is a story set in the 1970s in the suburbs of Seattle, following a group of young teens as a disease called the bug has gone around.
00:26:59.039 --> 00:27:00.720
It is a sexually transmitted disease.
00:27:00.880 --> 00:27:07.599
Really, if you want to like a quick my quick comp for what this book feels like, it is it follows meets requiem for a dream.
00:27:07.759 --> 00:27:09.680
Like that is kind of like what the book feels like.
00:27:11.359 --> 00:27:12.720
I'm setting things to combine.
00:27:13.759 --> 00:27:14.559
Big bummer.
00:27:14.960 --> 00:27:15.759
Big bummer.
00:27:15.920 --> 00:27:18.079
Um and it's a story following.
00:27:18.480 --> 00:27:21.119
I wonder if these guys know they're allowed to write about happy things.
00:27:21.680 --> 00:27:24.640
You know, you can have like just like a fun little like you got cartoon bear.
00:27:26.079 --> 00:27:28.400
Uh I'm Martin Marasma at one time.
00:27:28.480 --> 00:27:31.119
I think the first time I met him at Comic Con, which I think you were there too.
00:27:31.279 --> 00:27:35.920
We went up and said hi, and like he was talking about his art, and he's like, Yeah, I'd love to like draw some happy stuff.
00:27:37.680 --> 00:27:40.000
But people keep hiring me for this sort of thing.
00:27:40.880 --> 00:27:44.079
I love the idea of him like drawing something and us being like it and be like, oh, that's a beautiful picture.
00:27:44.319 --> 00:27:45.440
Like, we're scared by that.
00:27:45.759 --> 00:27:47.039
Martin, you've scared us.
00:27:47.279 --> 00:27:48.319
He scared us so deeply.
00:27:48.799 --> 00:27:49.599
It's like a fun no.
00:27:50.000 --> 00:27:50.799
Not scary.
00:27:51.920 --> 00:27:55.680
He's drawing like a happy little guy, and I'm like, that's the scariest one I've ever seen.
00:27:55.920 --> 00:28:13.920
Um, yeah, so Black Hole um follows a story of essentially like kind of two main protagonists, but four central characters as they are dealing with this disease, becoming isolated from their peers, eventually living like out in the woods in isolation, leaving their families behind.
00:28:14.079 --> 00:28:24.160
Um, but all the while some someone or something has started killing teenagers out in the woods who have been infected by this sexually transmitted disease, the bug.
00:28:24.319 --> 00:28:25.839
And it plays out over the course.
00:28:26.079 --> 00:28:28.400
It's unclear how long the story takes place.
00:28:28.480 --> 00:28:35.200
Like it could be as short as I imagine, like a summer, like one school year, or it might be like five years.
00:28:35.359 --> 00:28:38.880
Like it is kind of unclear exactly the length of the thing.
00:28:39.039 --> 00:28:39.920
It kind of jumps around too.
00:28:40.400 --> 00:28:41.680
It does jump up, it does jump around.
00:28:41.759 --> 00:28:43.599
It's very unsettling, uh unsettling.
00:28:43.680 --> 00:28:51.119
It's also like incredibly psychedelic, which I think is such an unsettling thing to do in visuals of comic books, especially in black and white.
00:28:51.279 --> 00:28:59.279
Because if you haven't seen the art of this, you can see from the front cover, it's like this very harsh black-white line art that is incredibly intense to look at.
00:28:59.359 --> 00:29:01.839
And that's how the entire interior of the book is as well.
00:29:02.000 --> 00:29:06.000
There's no color, there's no gray, it's only ever pure black and white.
00:29:06.319 --> 00:29:10.319
And it really just winds you in deeper and deeper.
00:29:10.480 --> 00:29:24.160
There's these incredible sequences of because a lot of the panel structure is very just rectangular, square, very straight lines, but then they play with very simple squiggly lines to talk about, like in retrospective, those are all done with a squiggly line outline.
00:29:24.240 --> 00:29:36.319
And then there are these incredible sequences of pages where the panels are swirling together and intercutting all of this different imagery, um, which is really, really horrific and shocking as it comes together.
00:29:36.400 --> 00:29:43.359
Like one of the first sequences in issue one is um a sequence with like a frog in a dissection lab.
00:29:43.599 --> 00:29:57.519
And like the image of the frog it's a little gross, um, split open on the table as then compared to like the gash in the bottom of the foot, and then this girl whose back is ripped open, and then something else too that I can't remember off the top of my head.
00:29:57.599 --> 00:30:00.880
But it's there's a lot of parallel imagery, there's a lot of symmetry.
00:30:01.039 --> 00:30:04.319
Um, similar to Ice Cream Man, the the style is very still.
00:30:04.480 --> 00:30:14.160
The the faces are very like almost porcelain doll-esque for the the non-infected characters, and some of the infected characters don't have bizarre mutations either.
00:30:14.400 --> 00:30:22.559
Because as they get this bug, the characters begin to develop these intense mute like body horror mutations.
00:30:22.640 --> 00:30:31.359
Somebody has like a s a tail, somebody else has webbed fingers, somebody sheds all of their skin, somebody has a mouth on the bottom of on like on his collarbone.
00:30:31.759 --> 00:30:54.400
Um, so there's a wide range, and I think one thing that's really effective about like the cleanliness of Charles Burns' art style is that all of the people who aren't infected, they seem almost there's something really distancing about them because they're there's their style is so clean and put together and symmetrical with like key differences, right?
00:30:54.480 --> 00:30:57.519
Like some characters have a mole or slightly different hairstyle, but they're very clean.
00:30:57.599 --> 00:31:11.759
And then the mutated characters, in a way, to me, feel more human because they are so gro like they're completely like grotesque in different ways, but there's something that's really like organic about the way they look, which is really interesting.
00:31:12.400 --> 00:31:12.640
Yeah?
00:31:12.880 --> 00:31:14.559
Yeah, and bring that up in therapy this week.
00:31:15.440 --> 00:31:18.319
And somehow the gross ones I thought were human.
00:31:18.640 --> 00:31:19.440
That's what the books are.
00:31:20.400 --> 00:31:21.200
That's disgusting.
00:31:21.279 --> 00:31:21.920
I loved it.
00:31:22.960 --> 00:31:26.880
But uh one thing about that book too is you know, when you talk about just like cartooning, right?
00:31:26.960 --> 00:31:33.519
It is simplifying a form to like uh just a few lines and it's leaving the brain to kind of fill in the rest.
00:31:33.680 --> 00:31:41.279
And I think one thing that it does really effectively is like, you know, you can't really when you first see like the slit in the guy's neck, you're not like that's a mouth.
00:31:41.359 --> 00:31:42.880
You're like, that's a freaky little thing.
00:31:42.960 --> 00:31:47.519
And my brain's kind of like conjuring different images of like what that might be representing.
00:31:47.759 --> 00:31:50.319
So, in that way, we were talking about what prose does.
00:31:50.400 --> 00:31:56.400
I think he effectively uses cartooning to draw something you can't fully tell what it is.
00:31:56.640 --> 00:32:08.400
And your brain is filling in the gaps and being kind of like forced into this collaboration with Charles Burns to help him render out the rest of his nightmare world that he's created.
00:32:08.480 --> 00:32:14.400
So I think you're kind of like, I'm kind of learning now through this discussion about what some of the tools are for a horror common.
00:32:14.640 --> 00:32:32.319
I think it's absolutely one of them, you know, like making bringing us 60% of the way there and leaving us to fill in the rest and that simplistic not it's not really a simplistic art style, but it's just, yeah, using kind of like simple lines or symbolism to kind of like imply something horrific going on.
00:32:32.480 --> 00:32:40.240
Uh, I think it's a really effective tool for body horror specifically, where we're left to kind of like, oh, that's not quite right.
00:32:40.319 --> 00:32:41.119
What's happening there?
00:32:41.200 --> 00:32:41.599
What is that?
00:32:41.759 --> 00:32:43.279
I don't know what that slit is, you know?
00:32:43.519 --> 00:32:44.160
I don't know what that is.
00:32:44.240 --> 00:32:45.359
I don't know what color that is.
00:32:45.519 --> 00:32:50.559
Like, there's so many moments throughout the book where he describes like the color or the scent, or it's day or night.
00:32:50.640 --> 00:32:52.480
And that really brings you into it, it's like, oh, right.
00:32:52.559 --> 00:32:55.759
And you're like, you bring that color to the scene.
00:32:56.160 --> 00:33:13.039
But yeah, there's this really specific description later, which uh so the issues specifically that I referenced for this might are a dream girl and Rick the Dick, which are I honestly don't know what issue they would have been in because I couldn't find that exact count.
00:33:13.200 --> 00:33:25.440
But to me, that's where this rubber really hits the road where you're seeing these characters who have had like either had their lives ripped apart or ripped their own lives apart and started living on the fringes of society.
00:33:25.519 --> 00:33:28.799
And there's a lot of drug use in the book as well, which obviously plays into it.
00:33:28.880 --> 00:33:44.640
There's a huge, there's a really wild sequence where somebody is on acid with like these swirling lines, which I think just to digress, like surrealist black and white is really fascinating because so often that is like technicolor wild rainbows when you see that sort of art.
00:33:44.880 --> 00:33:56.400
Um, but in these later issues, it follows these characters where this sort of group of teens who have been living out in the woods have kind of found sanctuary in a house that has been left abandoned.
00:33:56.559 --> 00:34:12.239
Um, and one of the guys who let them into the house, one of the main characters, uh Keith, has gone out of the garage and he's kind of talking about the last few days and how he's like doesn't have a control over the fact these people, who are essentially like homeless, they don't have anywhere else to go, are staying in the house that he's supposed to be watching while those people are on vacation.
00:34:12.480 --> 00:34:15.119
He's just out in the garage talking about like everything that got here.
00:34:15.280 --> 00:34:29.920
And toward the end of the issue, you go in and he realizes that one of the people who's been living in this group, who is kind of the leader, this guy named Dave, who is always like portrayed as like kind of soft-spoken, a little awkward, kind of quiet, has killed everybody else.
00:34:30.559 --> 00:34:33.119
He has gone through and shot anyone he could find.
00:34:33.280 --> 00:34:41.840
And then the next issue, Rick the Dick, which I find terrifying, um, is kind of finally showing you like what Dave's whole deal is.
00:34:42.000 --> 00:34:49.119
That Dave used to be like this really lonely, um, isolated nerd, essentially at the school who was bullied.
00:34:49.199 --> 00:34:51.440
And he and his friend, Dave, and his friend Rick.
00:34:51.519 --> 00:34:53.119
So Dave is the main guy who shot everyone.
00:34:53.199 --> 00:34:54.639
Rick is the other guy.
00:34:54.719 --> 00:34:56.719
And they like all you know about them is they were like nerds.
00:34:56.800 --> 00:34:58.400
They were in chess club, they were ugly.
00:34:58.480 --> 00:35:01.679
Like the other characters literally talk about them as like they were these outsiders.
00:35:02.159 --> 00:35:12.719
And Dave has kind of like taken Rick under his wing and has like been bringing him food while they're living in the wilderness and having Rick like kill the other people that are getting out of line.
00:35:12.960 --> 00:35:27.039
Um and you watch as Dave, there's this horrifying sequence where he's in like uh a Kentucky fried chicken ordering, like ordering at the counter, and these people come up behind you, these normies come up behind him and are like, he's got this.
00:35:27.119 --> 00:35:39.280
I don't know how to describe it, his face is sort of like bulbous and folded over in like a he almost looks dog like, but it's all like flesh, sort of folded over in strange like ripples.
00:35:39.519 --> 00:35:45.119
He is a goddess hood up, he's ordering the counter, and he's very soft-spoken, very quiet, very still, talking about the stillness.
00:35:45.199 --> 00:35:48.320
Is that, and the guy behind him is like, yeah, get out of here, you're scaring everyone.
00:35:48.480 --> 00:35:50.800
And he's like, No, I just want my fried chicken, like I don't want to cause a problem.
00:35:50.880 --> 00:35:52.239
And the guy's like, No, you get out of here.
00:35:52.400 --> 00:35:55.199
And Dave just pulls a gun and he's like, I'm not leaving without my chicken.
00:35:55.360 --> 00:35:57.679
And it's like, it's so scary.
00:35:57.840 --> 00:36:06.559
And then he like gives this horrifying but very like so minimalistly done speech where he like spits in that guy's mouth and is like, you're one of us now.
00:36:06.719 --> 00:36:07.519
That's all it takes.
00:36:07.760 --> 00:36:08.079
Yeah, yeah.
00:36:08.320 --> 00:36:10.000
And he just like walks out.
00:36:10.159 --> 00:36:11.280
It's horrifying.
00:36:11.440 --> 00:36:17.760
And it's like, I think so many people, when they do think about horror, they think about that, they think about that.
00:36:17.840 --> 00:36:21.519
And I think what both of these books do really well is like, what if we just slow it down for a second?
00:36:21.599 --> 00:36:22.960
What if I wasn't screaming?
00:36:23.119 --> 00:36:24.320
What if I wasn't running?
00:36:24.480 --> 00:36:30.880
What if I was just sitting here and telling you something really, really horrible and making making I've thought this out all so clearly.
00:36:30.960 --> 00:36:32.239
I'm not rushing through any of it.
00:36:32.400 --> 00:36:35.519
And I think that's really it's it's really fascinating.
00:36:35.679 --> 00:36:48.800
I think it's really well it's funny you talk about the guy with his face folded over because that's something that like in this comic is almost PG, where like if you were to render that out fully or show a realistic depiction of that, it'd be like just so horrific.
00:36:48.960 --> 00:37:01.920
If he did such a hard R, which I know they did eventually make this in the Preacher TV show, and I can't really picture it, but like I think of like Ars face from Preacher, where it's like his head is supposed to look like, you know, an asshole.
00:37:02.079 --> 00:37:10.880
Uh, which adds like the drawing is just like some lines, but if you have to render that out fully in a in a TV show, it's suddenly like, oh my gosh, what are we doing here?
00:37:11.119 --> 00:37:14.079
And also part of it is like it goes over the line in the wrong direction.
00:37:14.159 --> 00:37:16.159
It's not always necessarily scarier.
00:37:16.239 --> 00:37:17.760
It comes, it becomes like weird.
00:37:18.000 --> 00:37:19.199
You don't need to, yeah.
00:37:19.360 --> 00:37:26.480
Which I want to compliment Ice Cream Man because I think the the coloring is so perfect to keep it in that sense of like stillness.
00:37:26.559 --> 00:37:30.719
It's not trying to like, it does add all this depth and dimension, but it's not overdoing it.
00:37:30.800 --> 00:37:38.320
It's a very both of these books have a very practiced and restrained hand, which is I think part of what makes them so effective and makes you stick with it.
00:37:38.400 --> 00:37:47.199
I remember the first time I saw Ice Cream Man on the Shelf, I was like years and years and years ago, I was too nervous to pick it up because I was like, I think this is gonna really freak me out.
00:37:47.280 --> 00:37:49.199
Like I think this art is gonna really freak me out.
00:37:49.440 --> 00:38:03.760
I mean, you can see it from both of them, and this is just the the cover of the volume two Sunday edition, but from both of the covers we have right now, they they are just kind of good encapsulations of the book's similarities where it's just two normal human faces, but they're just scary.
00:38:03.920 --> 00:38:07.679
They both have these kind of stretched out, unsettling smiles, you know.
00:38:07.760 --> 00:38:16.639
Uh, and that's the thing, too, is they're both smiling at you, but they're both so clearly the cover of horror books, even though you couldn't quite detail exactly what's making it so unsettling.
00:38:16.719 --> 00:38:18.960
I mean, for her, it's pretty obviously that they rendered all the teeth.
00:38:19.039 --> 00:38:21.840
We're both in, they rendered all the teeth, which is an easy way to render all the teeth.
00:38:21.920 --> 00:38:22.400
That's the big trend.
00:38:26.159 --> 00:38:27.599
Such a funny little similarity they have.
00:38:27.920 --> 00:38:36.000
Every time I look at Charles Byrne's art, I'm like, how that the shiny hair effect he does, and it's just black and white, and it's I can't believe it.
00:38:36.159 --> 00:38:41.360
It's the most shocking and impressive thing to me that he gets these like it looks like a glossy head of hair.
00:38:41.519 --> 00:38:42.320
It's so impressive.
00:38:42.480 --> 00:38:46.079
It's like I don't know, I you can do crazy things with art.
00:38:46.639 --> 00:38:47.679
Drawings incredible.
00:38:48.079 --> 00:38:49.679
Jake, what do you think about our comic books?
00:38:50.000 --> 00:38:52.000
Uh I mean, I think they're both fantastic.
00:38:52.159 --> 00:38:54.159
I am great, great picks.
00:38:54.400 --> 00:39:09.840
Um I wanted to put out that, you know, you brought up something that I'd wanted to discuss, yeah, which is the idea that um I think horror kind of lives best in the unknown.
00:39:10.239 --> 00:39:12.639
Uh to me, that's what makes a horror thing.
00:39:12.719 --> 00:39:42.559
When you're talking about the definition of horror, the thing that separates a horror from like a thriller or an action adventure or something like that, to me, is that it's grappling with these unknown questions and just kind of letting things live in this world of something beyond normal or beyond explainable, which is why I like in the horror fan community, there are things that are big questions for people.
00:39:42.719 --> 00:39:46.159
One of the big questions is like that comes up a lot is is Jaws a horror movie?
00:39:46.239 --> 00:39:47.840
And Jaws my favorite movie of all time.
00:39:47.920 --> 00:39:48.639
I love Jaws.
00:39:48.880 --> 00:39:56.159
And I argue that Jaws is a horror movie because there is something otherworldly about this shark.
00:39:56.239 --> 00:39:58.880
Like they're not just out there fighting a shark.
00:39:59.119 --> 00:40:01.119
There's something beyond.
00:40:01.280 --> 00:40:08.320
It's not acting natural, it's not doing what a shark normally does in its hunting patterns or whatever.
00:40:08.559 --> 00:40:16.719
And there's something about that that is also forcing these characters to look at nature and look at the world and how they interact with it.
00:40:16.880 --> 00:40:28.320
It goes beyond this question of here's this thing that is out there eating people, uh, to like again, like a man in a world that is hostile.
00:40:28.559 --> 00:40:30.880
It just takes on this bigger thing.
00:40:31.119 --> 00:41:12.159
Um and I think that both of these uh comics do a great job of dealing with that because um they are somewhat restrained, like they are uh uh looking at these questions as sort of questions and wanting you, the reader, to fill in a lot of this information, which is why I think uh uh it is hard for comics to do horror because you get a lot of information or you can, you know, like it's very easy to kind of fill things out for people, uh as opposed to just pure prose where you are filling in a lot of information or that kind of thing.
00:41:12.400 --> 00:41:34.559
Um and one of the other things that I loved about both of these choices, is something that I get frustrated with with a lot of horror, um, is I think with a lot of horror, especially nowadays, you are not really getting what the person who made it is afraid of.
00:41:34.880 --> 00:41:37.840
You're getting what horror things that person likes.
00:41:38.079 --> 00:41:44.480
You're watching someone's horror movie, you're reading someone's horror novel, and you're going, oh, this guy likes this thing.
00:41:44.639 --> 00:41:46.880
Oh, this guy was inspired by X.
00:41:48.000 --> 00:41:56.559
They're not inspired by their fear as much, which I think is what makes a great horror story is when you can read it and you go, oh, like this guy's afraid of something.
00:41:56.719 --> 00:41:56.960
Yeah.
00:41:57.760 --> 00:42:00.480
There's a real fear that this person is wrestling with.
00:42:00.719 --> 00:42:11.599
And I think in Ice Cream Man, it's great because that fear of losing your mental capacity, losing your ability to speak and communicate.
00:42:11.760 --> 00:42:13.599
I think that's something everyone wrestles with.
00:42:13.760 --> 00:42:17.440
I thought it was great that you could not remember Mark Marin's name.
00:42:20.079 --> 00:42:20.800
The gremlins in there.
00:42:21.119 --> 00:42:22.639
He's a new podcast memory.
00:42:24.639 --> 00:42:29.519
But, you know, like, and I think it really beautifully examines that.
00:42:29.679 --> 00:42:36.639
You know, it paints it in a way that when you read it, you're reading him losing the words, and you're trying to fill in the words too.
00:42:36.719 --> 00:42:39.760
You're reading and saying, like, oh, he's he said, oh, that's what it is.
00:42:39.920 --> 00:42:43.599
You know, you're you're there with him in a way that I think is really kind of brilliant.
00:42:43.840 --> 00:42:47.760
And with Charles Burns and Black Hole, like sex is scary.
00:42:47.920 --> 00:42:53.679
The image that you were trying to remember that you could not when they have the you know, the frog scene.
00:42:53.840 --> 00:42:54.079
Yeah, yeah.
00:42:54.320 --> 00:42:56.719
And this is just the image.
00:42:57.280 --> 00:43:02.400
It's a woman covering her, I believe it's a woman covering her genitals, her private parts.
00:43:02.880 --> 00:43:03.519
It's very sexual.
00:43:03.760 --> 00:43:20.320
And there's it's a very sexual book, but then like it it, you know, when I read it, I was a much younger person, and it reminded me of how much sex is scary when you're young, and especially if you grew up post-AIDS crisis.
00:43:20.719 --> 00:43:24.480
Yeah, which this book would have been like it's very scary.
00:43:24.800 --> 00:43:47.599
Um, and this book wrestles with that in that Jaws way of building it out where it's not just, oh no, there's a disease floating around, but it's a disease that grows beyond a simple lesion or whatever it is, uh uh uh it feels almost biblical in this very like small town kind of way.
00:43:48.000 --> 00:43:59.760
Um so yeah, I think you know, both of them are so effective in that horror of not necessarily jump scare horror, but uh uh uh emotional, almost existential.
00:44:00.880 --> 00:44:01.440
Horror.
00:44:02.880 --> 00:44:08.639
Which I that was one of the questions that I wanted to ask you both as you've picked these titles.
00:44:11.840 --> 00:44:14.480
How did they resonate with you as readers?
00:44:14.639 --> 00:44:27.119
Did you find a personal connection to the fear in these, or were you looking at it more as a um like a style exercise?
00:44:27.280 --> 00:44:30.960
Again, like, oh, you've managed to make this an evocative horror story.
00:44:31.440 --> 00:44:36.320
Yeah, I think that I definitely share in the dread of Ice Cream Man.
00:44:36.400 --> 00:44:42.880
I think that like Ice Cream Man's view of the world is not a view that I typically share.
00:44:42.960 --> 00:44:49.440
I don't think I'm someone that's typically struggling with that kind of like existential like dread of everything around me, right?
00:44:49.599 --> 00:44:58.320
Where reading Ice Cream Man sometimes feels like someone who does view the world that way, like grabbing me and forcing me to view the world through this very like.
00:44:58.880 --> 00:45:02.239
I mean, it has moments of levity, it has moments of bright.
00:45:02.400 --> 00:45:06.719
He he will sometimes try to be like, but everything will turn out fine or can or love's nice.
00:45:06.880 --> 00:45:19.599
But like it just that that feels like little like gasps through just like such a deep cynicism about the world and such a deep, like we're all here and then we die mentality that Ice Cream Man seems to have.
00:45:19.679 --> 00:45:26.639
Like, Ice Cream Man quite frequently will put someone's entire life um on display in the 20 pages, right?
00:45:26.719 --> 00:45:31.519
And that has this effect of making life feel so small, so trivial.
00:45:31.679 --> 00:45:36.800
Oftentimes these people are shown through just like the four worst moments of their lives, right?
00:45:36.880 --> 00:45:40.320
So it's like this guy who's like, I was a kid and then I found love.
00:45:40.480 --> 00:45:45.920
And then for a reason that I cannot explain and I don't understand, I was not nice to my family.
00:45:46.239 --> 00:45:47.039
I just was mean.
00:45:47.119 --> 00:45:52.320
And like it's him being like thinking back of these memories, being like, I wanted to be nice.
00:45:52.559 --> 00:45:54.159
All I want was to be happy.
00:45:54.320 --> 00:45:55.760
Why was I so cold there?
00:45:55.920 --> 00:45:57.039
Why was I so mean to her?
00:45:57.119 --> 00:46:08.960
Which is definitely something that that I'm reading that and like having that experience of like, you know, moments that you've been the same, moments that you've reacted like angrily or cold when you're like, what am I upset about?
00:46:09.119 --> 00:46:09.920
What am I doing?
00:46:10.079 --> 00:46:14.880
Why am I not just like if I would just smile and be happy, this would be like a nice moment.
00:46:14.960 --> 00:46:22.639
But for some reason, there's some gremlin in your brain that's making you be like, I'm upset right now and I'm gonna be mean and cold to people around me for no real reason.
00:46:22.800 --> 00:46:24.480
It's just gonna make my life worse and theirs.
00:46:24.639 --> 00:46:34.079
So this person on his deathbed looking back at his life that he can't even remember anymore and being like, Yeah, let's see, I was a kid and then I was a bad father and now I'm dying.
00:46:34.239 --> 00:46:36.480
And it's such a simplification of life.
00:46:37.599 --> 00:46:38.719
It's so sad.
00:46:38.960 --> 00:46:41.119
It's it's it's it's horrific, you know.
00:46:41.199 --> 00:46:55.440
Uh it is a book that like trying to read it alone at night, like it's too much just just dread, just a way it recontextualizes your own life in a way you have to like kind of like claw back and be like, no, I'm not sad, Martin.
00:46:55.840 --> 00:46:57.840
Martin and W.
00:46:59.199 --> 00:47:00.639
It's your real name, W.
00:47:01.679 --> 00:47:02.800
I think life's pretty good.
00:47:03.039 --> 00:47:04.800
I smile more often than I'm sad.
00:47:04.880 --> 00:47:06.079
So keep this shit.
00:47:08.079 --> 00:47:09.599
I'm sorry you feel bad.
00:47:10.639 --> 00:47:12.719
But but that's to say yes.
00:47:13.360 --> 00:47:16.400
It definitely does grab me and show me that vision of the world.
00:47:16.719 --> 00:47:22.480
Yeah, I think for me, yes, but not in the way I expected.
00:47:22.559 --> 00:47:24.880
I I do not remember when I first read it.
00:47:25.039 --> 00:47:28.400
I think when I first read it, it was mainly just, oh my gosh, what did I just read?
00:47:28.480 --> 00:47:31.119
All those spooky sex images are so scary.
00:47:31.360 --> 00:48:02.880
Um, but the second read the this most recent reading before this podcast was really jumping out to me as a very key fear that I have, let's get personal, is that a momentary mistake or misjudgment will ruin your entire life, which I think is like a very core part of black hole, especially in um the second issue, which is which I think is the second issue, which focuses on our second protagonist, Chris, um, the who has this guy that she really likes and she thinks he's really cute.
00:48:03.280 --> 00:48:06.960
And they hit it off at a party and they start hooking up in a graveyard.
00:48:07.039 --> 00:48:09.199
And he's like, Hey, Chris, I have to tell you something.
00:48:09.760 --> 00:48:14.559
And Chris thinks he's about to tell her about the fact that he has a girlfriend.
00:48:14.800 --> 00:48:14.880
Yeah.
00:48:15.039 --> 00:48:16.800
And she's like, No, no, no, I know it's okay.
00:48:17.039 --> 00:48:17.840
And he's like, You know?
00:48:18.000 --> 00:48:19.119
And she's like, Yeah, I know.
00:48:19.599 --> 00:48:29.519
They proceed to have sex and then she sees that he has the bug, that he has this mouth on his clavicle, and like mid-sex realizes this.
00:48:29.679 --> 00:48:32.159
And it's this thing of like, well, it's already too late.
00:48:32.320 --> 00:48:33.760
Your life is already ruined.
00:48:33.840 --> 00:48:38.880
Like, or that's kind of the question of the book is does does a momentary mistake have to ruin your life?
00:48:38.960 --> 00:48:39.760
And we kind of see these two.
00:48:40.079 --> 00:48:42.880
So if it gives you weird freaky mutations, then yes.
00:48:44.000 --> 00:48:45.039
It gives you weird freaky mutations.
00:48:45.199 --> 00:48:47.360
If it makes you shed your skin constantly, then yeah.
00:48:48.239 --> 00:48:48.639
Probably.
00:48:49.119 --> 00:48:59.280
Well, and that's kind of the thing we see between Chris and Keith is Chris, it does kind of go on to in a way, it does kind of slowly tear her life apart.
00:48:59.440 --> 00:49:00.800
She like loses her family.
00:49:01.039 --> 00:49:05.440
The the boy she had a crush on gets murdered, like she ends up on her own and alone.
00:49:05.519 --> 00:49:07.760
And like, we hope that she's moving toward recovery.
00:49:07.920 --> 00:49:17.280
And then the other protagonist, Keith, who very knowingly contracts this disease, like goes on to have potentially a happy life.
00:49:17.360 --> 00:49:35.199
He's like on the road with a woman he likes, and it seems like they're happy, but there's still this sense of like that is something that's very relatable to me, especially around questions of like when I was a kid and thinking about all the scary adult things I would have eventually have to do, and that like things might get ruined, or like if you mess up your taxes, you're going to jail.
00:49:35.360 --> 00:49:40.400
If you accidentally like you fall asleep at the wheel and you kill someone in a car accident.
00:49:40.559 --> 00:49:43.760
Like, I think this book really addresses that sort of fear.
00:49:43.840 --> 00:49:46.880
Um, and that's something I can really understand.
00:49:47.199 --> 00:49:47.599
Boom.
00:49:55.119 --> 00:49:55.679
I don't know how much.
00:49:57.760 --> 00:50:05.920
Um, but I would say actually, on the flip side of what you're saying, uh Jake Thomas, about fear is the like the not knowing.
00:50:06.079 --> 00:50:09.760
I think part of what fear can also be is really effectively saying the knowing.
00:50:09.840 --> 00:50:12.719
Like we as the reader know it and the re and the characters don't.
00:50:12.960 --> 00:50:21.840
Like this is a great book for that too, because as I was talking about with that scene where Chris contracts the disease, we the reader already know that guy has it.
00:50:22.000 --> 00:50:25.199
And we're watching her unknowingly get into this situation.
00:50:25.280 --> 00:50:32.639
And then later in the book, when Keith uh is like approaching somebody to have sex with them, and also we know that person's sick.
00:50:32.960 --> 00:50:33.840
He knows it too.
00:50:33.920 --> 00:50:39.920
But there is this sense of like, you as the reader are like, I know what's gonna happen to you if you do this.
00:50:40.079 --> 00:50:47.760
Like, and there's a funny, the very opening sequence of the book is Keith in biology class saying, like, I feel like I got a vision of the past and I knew what was gonna happen.
00:50:47.840 --> 00:50:49.119
And like that is kind of the book.
00:50:49.199 --> 00:50:49.280
Yeah.
00:50:49.599 --> 00:50:54.159
It's like it's saying this one moment is going to control the destiny of the rest of your life.
00:50:54.320 --> 00:50:56.480
And that I don't think that's like the message.
00:50:56.559 --> 00:50:58.480
It's saying, like, is that true?
00:50:58.559 --> 00:50:59.840
Yeah, is that what happens?
00:51:00.079 --> 00:51:00.480
Yeah, yeah.
00:51:00.639 --> 00:51:02.800
But it's scary to apply that in your own life.
00:51:02.880 --> 00:51:03.199
Yeah, yeah.
00:51:03.440 --> 00:51:11.519
I also I liked uh I liked it, it made sense for that book, but I love taking any any horror victim that lives at the end of the book and being like, I hope they're moving towards recovery.
00:51:12.320 --> 00:51:13.920
I hope they're on a path to recovery.
00:51:14.239 --> 00:51:15.440
She's floating in the ocean.
00:51:15.519 --> 00:51:18.639
She says I could stay out here forever, and it's like maybe she drowns.
00:51:18.800 --> 00:51:19.280
Like, I don't know.
00:51:19.519 --> 00:51:20.880
I hope she's moving towards recovery.
00:51:21.519 --> 00:51:23.280
Had you read Ice Cream Man before?
00:51:23.519 --> 00:51:24.880
Yeah, I'd read a couple issues.
00:51:24.960 --> 00:51:32.079
I had not read that issue in particular, I don't think, which again was why I was very curious why you chose that one out of all of them, you know.
00:51:32.400 --> 00:51:34.639
Um, but I've really enjoyed it.
00:51:34.719 --> 00:51:37.679
I've wanted to read more, so I was thrilled to have an excuse.
00:51:37.920 --> 00:51:42.000
Um, and that's my copy of Black Hole, so I've read Black Hole before.
00:51:42.480 --> 00:51:48.480
Um, you've got not to buy us, not D bias.
00:51:51.679 --> 00:51:59.760
It is tough because uh like you know, Black Hole was uh a very meaningful book for me when I read it.
00:51:59.840 --> 00:52:21.679
It was, you know, one of those comics that um caused me to really get excited about what comics can do because again, his art, the way he crafts a story, uh is just extraordinary and um I again just explodes the medium in a really fun way.
00:52:22.000 --> 00:52:26.320
Um I really loved this issue of Ice Cream Man.
00:52:26.639 --> 00:52:41.199
Uh again, I I think you know it it uses all the the parts of comics in a fun way to the point of like letting the lettering speak for the story, letting the coloring speak for the story.
00:52:41.280 --> 00:52:51.679
Like it's uh amongst the issues of that book that I've read, I did feel like that was a standout, like I a really, really extraordinary issue.
00:52:51.920 --> 00:52:59.440
Um I I have tried to remove my personal bias, but perhaps it still lingers.
00:52:59.599 --> 00:53:01.760
I I have to choose black hole.
00:53:02.000 --> 00:53:07.039
Uh a brilliant piece of work that I do think is just one of the standout comics of the movie.
00:53:07.440 --> 00:53:08.719
You know what's really scary, kids?
00:53:08.880 --> 00:53:09.519
The system.
00:53:10.639 --> 00:53:11.920
And it's rigged against you.
00:53:12.079 --> 00:53:12.239
Wow.
00:53:12.639 --> 00:53:14.400
And you can never really win.
00:53:15.119 --> 00:53:16.639
All right, ice cream man.
00:53:17.679 --> 00:53:18.960
Um but this was great.
00:53:19.039 --> 00:53:27.440
Again, as a big horror nut, I was thrilled to have this conversation and have an excuse to reread and read some great horror comics.
00:53:27.599 --> 00:53:28.559
Uh so thank you guys.
00:53:28.719 --> 00:53:29.440
Uh I'm again.
00:53:29.599 --> 00:53:30.639
Can you excuse me for a second?
00:53:39.519 --> 00:53:40.960
You can't do this to me.
00:53:42.079 --> 00:53:44.960
You're experiencing your own personal horror right now.
00:53:46.159 --> 00:53:47.039
Uh thanks, sorry.
00:53:49.519 --> 00:53:52.800
Uh this is what lost fit.
00:53:53.599 --> 00:53:54.000
Wow.
00:53:54.559 --> 00:53:55.119
First one.
00:53:55.519 --> 00:53:56.320
You look are you okay?
00:53:56.400 --> 00:53:58.400
You look red, you look kind of delirious.
00:54:00.639 --> 00:54:03.039
You're having visions of your past slash future?
00:54:03.360 --> 00:54:06.239
I d uh what w one, I I won.
00:54:06.960 --> 00:54:07.679
I won.
00:54:08.800 --> 00:54:10.480
I picked black hole.
00:54:13.440 --> 00:54:13.840
Uh well.
00:54:14.320 --> 00:54:15.440
Any closing thoughts on that?
00:54:15.840 --> 00:54:17.119
Uh I feel like I deserve this.
00:54:17.280 --> 00:54:18.400
I'm glad to see you fall.
00:54:31.760 --> 00:54:33.119
Hey, thanks for listening.
00:54:33.280 --> 00:54:40.800
If you liked hearing our thoughts on other comics, you should check out our comics, available at any local comic book store or online at idwpublishing.com.
00:00:00.400 --> 00:00:04.080
Welcome to Superlatives, the show where comics go head to head.
00:00:04.240 --> 00:00:06.639
Every episode we pick a superlative theme.
00:00:06.799 --> 00:00:09.279
This week its best horror issue.
00:00:10.160 --> 00:00:16.480
Two of our editors each nominate a comic they think deserves the title, then step into the ring to make their case.
00:00:16.719 --> 00:00:25.440
When the arguments are done, our moderator, me, delivers the final verdict, deciding which comic walks away with this episode's superlative.
00:00:28.640 --> 00:00:30.320
That's just how Jake always talks.
00:00:30.399 --> 00:00:30.640
Yeah.
00:00:30.879 --> 00:00:32.799
The question was, how is your day, man?
00:00:34.719 --> 00:00:37.200
Well, let's introduce our players.
00:00:37.520 --> 00:00:39.679
To my right, Ellen Boner.
00:00:39.759 --> 00:00:40.000
Ellen.
00:00:40.240 --> 00:00:41.039
Hi, I'm Ellen.
00:00:41.119 --> 00:00:43.039
I'm an associate editor here at IDW.
00:00:43.119 --> 00:00:47.439
I'm also the games manager at IDW, working on books like The Godzilla role-playing game.
00:00:47.679 --> 00:00:52.960
Will that games experience give her a heads up against our other player, Jake Williams?
00:00:53.200 --> 00:00:54.240
Hey, I'm Jake Williams.
00:00:54.320 --> 00:00:55.520
I work at IDW.
00:00:56.640 --> 00:00:58.240
And I'm Jake Thomas.
00:00:58.399 --> 00:00:59.920
I also work at IDW.
00:01:00.399 --> 00:01:05.280
And I'm the judge, jury, and executioner for this episode.
00:01:05.519 --> 00:01:06.400
What are we talking about?
00:01:06.560 --> 00:01:07.760
We're talking about horror.
00:01:08.239 --> 00:01:11.120
We're talking about best horror issue.
00:01:11.519 --> 00:01:11.840
Thank you.
00:01:12.079 --> 00:01:12.239
Yeah.
00:01:15.359 --> 00:01:17.200
Oh, insane.
00:01:19.760 --> 00:01:21.120
That's how connected we are here.
00:01:22.640 --> 00:01:23.040
Incredible.
00:01:24.239 --> 00:01:26.640
Are you guys a fan of horror in general?
00:01:26.879 --> 00:01:28.560
Do you watch a lot of horror things?
00:01:28.879 --> 00:01:30.079
I'm a huge horror fan.
00:01:30.319 --> 00:01:30.959
Big horror fan.
00:01:31.359 --> 00:01:31.920
Great pick, then.
00:01:32.079 --> 00:01:32.480
Great pick for.
00:01:32.879 --> 00:01:33.840
I could tell that about you.
00:01:35.280 --> 00:01:38.640
Constantly walking fake blood dripping down my mouth.
00:01:38.959 --> 00:01:39.920
Hello, friend.
00:01:41.040 --> 00:01:50.719
You know, I had, when I was younger, I was like deathly afraid of horror movies to the degree that I was afraid I'd be at a friend's house at like a sleepover and they'd like put a horror movie on.
00:01:50.799 --> 00:01:52.640
Like I was afraid of that happening.
00:01:52.879 --> 00:01:56.079
Like just in the abstract, nervous that could occur.
00:01:59.200 --> 00:02:05.200
And then, you know, there was a friend eventually in high school that made me watch paranormal activity, and I was like, okay, I can handle this.
00:02:05.280 --> 00:02:07.120
Like, this isn't this isn't too bad.
00:02:07.280 --> 00:02:14.479
I I think I was so afraid of paranormal activity in particular, because they had that huge ad campaign that it was like, watching this is gonna ruin your life.
00:02:14.719 --> 00:02:20.240
And then one of like kind of the mean kids in school, he was kind of like like bully adjacent, but not like a bully.
00:02:20.319 --> 00:02:22.719
Um, we kind of I think my school is too small for a bully.
00:02:22.800 --> 00:02:26.080
I think it would just be too much of like a why you're being mean to one other kid.
00:02:26.479 --> 00:02:27.520
What are you doing?
00:02:27.919 --> 00:02:35.759
But uh, but one of the kids that was kind of like tougher, he watched Paranormal Activity and told us all he slept with the lights on for like two weeks.
00:02:35.919 --> 00:02:39.280
Like and he said he had like a knife under his pillow, slept with all the lights on.
00:02:39.439 --> 00:02:42.800
So I was like, I don't think I can handle it if that's what it did, if it did that to you.
00:02:43.039 --> 00:02:47.919
Eventually watched it, thought it was fine, went through a period where I was like seeing every horror movie that would come out.
00:02:48.080 --> 00:02:51.759
And then I realized I was like just more scared of things during that time period.
00:02:52.000 --> 00:02:53.360
Like I think it infected my brain.
00:02:53.439 --> 00:02:56.080
I was just made you jumpy, skittish, yeah.
00:02:56.319 --> 00:03:01.439
So I have not watched as many recently, and I feel less afraid of the night.
00:03:01.840 --> 00:03:06.800
I I really like horror, but I am also very sporadic and picky.
00:03:07.039 --> 00:03:11.120
Um, I don't I think really I'll just come out and say it.
00:03:11.199 --> 00:03:12.080
I'm an elitist.
00:03:12.159 --> 00:03:13.840
I like a little prestige horror.
00:03:14.000 --> 00:03:15.520
I like a weird foreign film horror.
00:03:15.759 --> 00:03:16.960
People really turned on this take.
00:03:17.039 --> 00:03:18.159
You're gonna get some negative comments.
00:03:19.280 --> 00:03:21.439
Really turned on the idea of elevated horror.
00:03:21.520 --> 00:03:22.000
They don't like that term.
00:03:22.560 --> 00:03:23.039
Here's the thing.
00:03:23.199 --> 00:03:25.439
I I wouldn't, I have never even heard that term before.
00:03:25.599 --> 00:03:38.240
I think all horror is great for everyone, but for me, I'm saying my personal taste is like, and I still like I just my my thing is I struggle with um gore and like jump scare horror.
00:03:38.319 --> 00:03:41.439
Like I find that too unsettling to watch.
00:03:41.680 --> 00:03:47.599
Like it's actually just because it is so scary because it's trying to be scary, even though it's like you know, big box.
00:03:47.840 --> 00:03:51.840
Like we went and saw um Final Destination, that doesn't work.
00:03:52.159 --> 00:03:54.560
I'm just gonna keep trying that the episode.
00:03:54.879 --> 00:03:59.599
I once heard a fact that people are more jumpy if they feel guilty about something, and I'm a very jumpy person.
00:03:59.840 --> 00:04:03.199
Well, it's just like, yeah, it's like a common movie trope where the guy who's like done something wrong.
00:04:03.280 --> 00:04:04.159
It's like, what was that?
00:04:05.360 --> 00:04:07.680
Yeah, two creams and my coffee, please.
00:04:08.000 --> 00:04:17.519
Yeah, but I like we saw Final Destination in theaters, whatever the most recent one, Legacy or Myth, the one that is like going across multiple time periods.
00:04:17.680 --> 00:04:19.279
And it was the first time I'd seen a movie like that.
00:04:19.360 --> 00:04:23.040
And I had to leave the theater because it was too scary for me, because the gore is too much.
00:04:23.120 --> 00:04:28.160
But I really like like a slow burn, psychological, emotional drama, horror.
00:04:28.240 --> 00:04:29.600
Like I'm I'm into that sort of stuff.
00:04:29.680 --> 00:04:32.800
Like one of my favorite horror movies was the original Let the Right One in.
00:04:33.120 --> 00:04:36.720
Um, so I don't, I it's not my me saying those are better.
00:04:36.800 --> 00:04:41.120
I'm just saying my personal taste tends to lend me toward you gotta look for it.
00:04:41.439 --> 00:04:42.560
I could be totally wrong about this.
00:04:42.639 --> 00:04:55.439
It feels like we have like a new type of horror movie that's sprung up in the past like 20 years, which is like the horror blockbuster, like the really glossy horror blockbuster that kind of came with like the uh I'm forgetting all the names.
00:04:55.519 --> 00:04:59.040
So there's the one that starts with the I and the ones that start with the C kind of horror movies.
00:04:59.199 --> 00:05:03.839
There's uh Conjuring, the Conjuring franchise and the Insidious franchise.
00:05:03.920 --> 00:05:05.040
Thank you, producer Raina.
00:05:05.279 --> 00:05:10.399
I feel like those two kind of kicked off this wave of like really glossy, blockbustery horror movies.
00:05:10.480 --> 00:05:19.279
But where before that, you know, one thing that's cool about horror is it's a genre that for like upstart filmmakers get into, where you can make something really kind of like lo-fi horror.
00:05:19.439 --> 00:05:21.839
And even like the Sam Raimi, like Evil Dead stuff, right?
00:05:21.920 --> 00:05:26.560
Like even that stuff that can be get get more popular as it goes, kind of had this like grungy vibe to it.
00:05:26.639 --> 00:05:36.639
And if you watch like the older slasher movies, you know, those things can get a little bit glossier as you go, especially once you hit like Scream, which is kind of like a big budget reproduction kind of parodying the ones that came before.
00:05:36.800 --> 00:05:40.160
But it definitely had this kind of like B movie vibe to it for a long time.
00:05:40.319 --> 00:05:47.199
I think it's newer now that we have these like multi, multi, multi-million dollar horror movies that are these like temp pole franchises.
00:05:47.680 --> 00:05:48.079
Yeah.
00:05:48.240 --> 00:05:48.560
Yeah.
00:05:48.720 --> 00:05:57.120
I mean, there was the time in the 70s where you would have things like The Omen or uh, you know, The Exorcist, which were pretty prestige.
00:05:57.199 --> 00:05:58.560
That's kind of past what I'm talking about.
00:05:58.639 --> 00:06:11.759
Where that's kind of like uh like a prestigious director making like a big kind of like, but yeah, it certainly in the in a sense is blockbustery, but less the kind of like very glossy down the middle as you're just kind of like horror.
00:06:12.000 --> 00:06:24.480
But yeah, it seems like it used to be kind of the two ends of it, where it's like here's a very prestige, very like uh big name director made a movie that kind of was scary, or it was like we gave a teenager$20 and he made the slasher movie.
00:06:24.800 --> 00:06:29.680
He stole a photo, like a film camera from his older brother and went out in the woods and the scariest thing you've ever seen.
00:06:30.000 --> 00:06:38.079
Where now we have those like uh, you know, if you watch The Conjuring, and there are these movies that I think some horror purists don't love, which are very like uh jump scare focused.
00:06:38.240 --> 00:06:54.079
You know, there's a lot of like these really like high budget jump scares coming at you, which that's kind of the horror movies that I feel like I kind of kind of came of age watching was these kind of like higher budget, higher profile horror films with the post-paranormal activity, post-conjuring stuff.
00:06:54.319 --> 00:07:00.800
Yeah, I think one of the first like R movies I ever saw was one of the original Final Destination, like Final Destination III or something like that.
00:07:00.959 --> 00:07:07.920
Um, and then some other horror movie, which I couldn't remember, that had all these CGI beatles eating people under throne.
00:07:08.160 --> 00:07:09.439
I was thinking like Ringo.
00:07:10.879 --> 00:07:12.000
They're really scary.
00:07:12.399 --> 00:07:13.279
It was my first.
00:07:14.399 --> 00:07:22.639
Um yeah, but I think horror, one thing I'm really excited to talk about today is like there's so many different flavors of horror, and I think they all have really different purposes.
00:07:22.800 --> 00:07:31.439
And I think there's a wide range of like horror adventure, gothic adventure, which is like playing on more classical horror themes.
00:07:31.519 --> 00:07:36.959
Like I like like uh like things that use Dracula but aren't really scary.
00:07:37.040 --> 00:07:42.959
So it's like technically horror because it's using a lineage horror character, but it's not meant to scare you or anything.
00:07:43.439 --> 00:07:44.800
Flag on the plate, you stole my talking point.
00:07:44.879 --> 00:07:47.279
I told you in advance it was my talking point and you stole it.
00:07:47.519 --> 00:07:49.360
But uh, but yeah, so it's this thing we've been talking about.
00:07:49.519 --> 00:07:50.079
Show me the point.
00:07:50.240 --> 00:07:58.639
Which is this, like, this especially in horror comics, what is this idea of like, is it meant to scare you or not?
00:07:58.800 --> 00:08:03.120
Or does it just include imagery that we associate with horror?
00:08:03.279 --> 00:08:06.079
Like you could have a kid's humor book about a skeleton and a ghost.
00:08:06.240 --> 00:08:13.839
I wouldn't call that horror, but if you put that skeleton and a ghost in an action kind of like action thriller environment, people then kind of are like, is it horror?
00:08:14.000 --> 00:08:16.319
And I would say no, because it's not trying to scare you.
00:08:17.680 --> 00:08:18.720
And comics are like that.
00:08:18.800 --> 00:08:32.639
I think a lot of things in comics are classified as horror if a serial killer is involved, if a uh spooky person's involved, like you could do an action Dracula comic, which we're putting out, but I wouldn't necessarily call horror because I don't know if the purpose of that book is to scare you.
00:08:32.879 --> 00:08:33.039
Yeah.
00:08:33.600 --> 00:08:40.799
That's exactly what I was thinking about with Operation Iron Coffin, where that is exactly what I would call a gothic adventure.
00:08:40.960 --> 00:08:46.320
So it's playing on like a gothic character like Godzilla, but just in an action drama setting.
00:08:46.399 --> 00:08:51.279
And like there's gore in it, there's scary stuff in it, but I don't think it's really meant to put you in a position of fear.
00:08:51.360 --> 00:09:08.399
And that's one thing I think is really interesting about horror as a genre in some of the subcategories, is it's one of the few genres that's trying to make you, the person experiencing it, feel not just empathy, but it's trying to actually scare you.
00:09:08.559 --> 00:09:17.120
Like in a weird way, it's not trying to be like if you watch a rom-com or read a romance novel, I don't know if that's really trying to make you be in love with the characters or feel love.
00:09:17.519 --> 00:09:20.000
Yeah, I think I think it's I was like, I'm totally agreeing with you.
00:09:20.080 --> 00:09:22.960
But then I think when you hit romance, that's maybe one of the few genres that is doing it.
00:09:24.000 --> 00:09:29.759
But uh, I think that horror is like comedy where it's trying to like elicit such a physical reaction from you.
00:09:29.840 --> 00:09:34.000
You know, like if you're watching a horror movie, you might jump out of your seat, you might scream, you know.
00:09:34.159 --> 00:09:45.679
I I think it's one of the exact I think the scream and the laugh are kind of the two things where it is eliciting this vocal reaction that very few, you know, even if you are falling in love in a romance book, you might be saying, you're not gonna say that out loud.
00:09:45.919 --> 00:09:48.559
Like start responding to the character.
00:09:49.279 --> 00:09:54.720
But uh, I think one could argue romance is eliciting a physical reaction if they're doing their jobs correctly.
00:09:56.000 --> 00:10:04.480
But uh I think with horror and specifically in horror comics, I think comics are one of the hardest mediums to actually scare the reader.
00:10:04.639 --> 00:10:13.840
And I think so much of what is called a horror comic and can earn that title for various definitions, isn't always passing my kind of personal definition of it.
00:10:14.080 --> 00:10:22.960
Because, you know, with a comic book, I think horror, especially horror in a film, is utilizing the control it has over the audience.
00:10:23.120 --> 00:10:25.200
It's a captive audience watching a movie.
00:10:25.360 --> 00:10:30.639
You can't affect the flow of the film, you can't kind of glance forward and see if a jump scare is coming.
00:10:30.720 --> 00:10:31.919
You're just watching it.
00:10:32.080 --> 00:10:45.679
So the director has you in the palm of his hand and he can jerk you around to different things and show you a horrific image that you have to look at, you know, unless you have your hands up covering your eyes, but you're very much you have no control, which is a perfect place for horror.
00:10:45.840 --> 00:10:52.080
I think comic books as a medium give the reader more control than just about any other medium, right?
00:10:52.240 --> 00:10:54.879
So you can stay on a panel for as long as you want.
00:10:55.039 --> 00:10:59.679
You can kind of brush over a panel really quickly, you can kind of like flip ahead and see what's coming.
00:10:59.840 --> 00:11:03.519
The reader has so much control, it's hard to get ahead of them, I think, on a comic book.
00:11:03.679 --> 00:11:08.480
So I I really only had a comic book effectively jump scare me like one or two times.
00:11:08.639 --> 00:11:15.440
There's like, I think it is an issue of Department of Truth where kind of out of nowhere you like turn the page to this like horrific image like right up in your face.
00:11:15.679 --> 00:11:20.320
Oh, yeah, with the actually use the demon from the basement, I think has a jump scare in that.
00:11:20.559 --> 00:11:37.840
The I don't know if I'm I don't know if I'm thinking of what you're thinking of, but there was a moment of like a trucker that stranded or something, and like you can see someone like they like effectively used like kind of visual techniques of like you see it on one page coming closer and closer to you, and then I think it like leaves the frame for a second, and then you turn the page, it's right in your face, you know.
00:11:37.919 --> 00:11:41.679
So it really is doing like the film language jump scare really effectively.
00:11:41.840 --> 00:11:47.200
Um, but other than that, I I really can count on one hand the amount of times I've been scared by a comic.
00:11:47.360 --> 00:11:52.240
I think today, you know, I'm I'm doing Ice Cream Man, which is a fantastic book written by W.
00:11:52.399 --> 00:11:53.519
Maxwell Prince.
00:11:53.679 --> 00:11:59.039
It is uh the art is done by Martin Martin Murazzo, and the colors are Chris O'Halloran.
00:11:59.120 --> 00:12:00.080
It's a fantastic comic.
00:12:00.240 --> 00:12:09.360
It's my favorite comic book that is dubbed a horror comic for a lot of reasons, but it's not a book that I'm always being left like scared by.
00:12:09.519 --> 00:12:19.840
Instead, it's just imbuing this insane sense of dread into me as I'm reading it, just making me feel like really kind of existentially bummed out as I'm reading it in a way.
00:12:20.080 --> 00:12:26.960
And sometimes it's scary and sometimes you're kind of freaked out, but that's not typically what they're like explicitly going for.
00:12:27.120 --> 00:12:42.559
And I talk about my issue specifically, there's a couple reasons that I chose it because there's a couple uh panels that I feel like are effectively kind of like enacting control over you and forcing you into one fixed location and kind of changing what you're seeing and playing with the imagery there.
00:12:42.720 --> 00:12:58.480
But yeah, I think that if I had had longer to really process and think about this, I would have loved to find a comic that like was going full in on scares to a way that you're like, I don't know if I can finish this, like with a horror movie, like you're you're desperately trying to look away, but the panels are too scary.
00:12:58.799 --> 00:12:59.600
It's too much.
00:12:59.759 --> 00:13:00.639
Yeah, I I agree.
00:13:00.720 --> 00:13:07.919
I think uh the power of comics is that they can't force you to go forward, but once you've seen it, you can't unsee it.
00:13:08.080 --> 00:13:14.000
So so much of it has to do with the visual, so much of it has to do with like the top book I'm talking about today, Black Hole by Charles Burns.
00:13:14.159 --> 00:13:18.480
That book is a book that I first read like six or seven years ago.
00:13:18.639 --> 00:13:20.960
And then I've thought about it a lot since.
00:13:21.039 --> 00:13:22.240
It like sticks with you.
00:13:22.399 --> 00:13:29.679
I think that's sort of the the the tone of horror, like really effective horror in comics is that it just lingers.
00:13:29.840 --> 00:13:33.519
It like really gets its little fingers into your brain and hooks in.
00:13:33.600 --> 00:13:40.399
Um I'm really excited because I think these are they're different books, but they're also similar in some interesting ways that I can't wait to kind of get into.
00:13:40.639 --> 00:13:51.200
Yeah, I think one thing about uh to to compare it to like literature to like prose, I think that one thing that prose has is I think it gets into your brain even more, right?
00:13:51.279 --> 00:14:02.559
Where like as you're reading it, it's really like incepting you with imagery, where in some way the fact that you know that's conjuring an image in your brain, which can be really scary if it's a scary image.
00:14:04.639 --> 00:14:05.360
It's not scary at all.
00:14:07.919 --> 00:14:08.799
That's pretty scary.
00:14:09.120 --> 00:14:09.919
How do we get in there?
00:14:10.000 --> 00:14:10.559
I don't want it to be.
00:14:12.159 --> 00:14:13.440
I don't want that out of my brain.
00:14:13.600 --> 00:14:19.279
But when you're reading a comic book, I think the art almost serves to separate you in some ways.
00:14:19.440 --> 00:14:22.080
Like I think they can draw a really scary picture, but I can close my eyes.
00:14:23.440 --> 00:14:24.639
I don't want to look at that if I want to.
00:14:24.799 --> 00:14:30.639
But I do think the the there's this inherent separation of the art style, of the rendering there that's going on.
00:14:30.879 --> 00:14:36.480
Where again, I so I think it's like while it can hook in and can stay for a while, there's just something different than what prose is able to do.
00:14:36.559 --> 00:14:39.600
I think I've been more scared by prose than I've been scared by comics in my life.
00:14:39.840 --> 00:14:44.000
Yeah, because it's making you conjure that for yourself.
00:14:44.080 --> 00:14:45.279
And like you're not just seeing.
00:14:55.840 --> 00:14:59.840
Like a lot of time in terms of like the text, theoretically, the dialogue would be auditory.
00:15:00.000 --> 00:15:15.679
And we don't often look at the sort of things that pros might sometimes do where they're living in all the senses and speaking like highly metaphorically about how something might feel, where pros they have to do that, they have to tell you how the character is feeling through like their internal dialogue and stuff.
00:15:15.759 --> 00:15:17.279
We can't just look at them on the page.
00:15:17.519 --> 00:15:33.360
So it it it does a good job of like really getting into your psyche in a you know, talking about the sound of it all, like that is horror film's kind of most effective tool in making the viewer scared is the sound.
00:15:33.440 --> 00:15:48.639
I mean, they've often like taken kind of like horror kind of like audio scapes and mapped it on to like a funny movie, and it's like, oh, this looks the scene is scary now because it has this kind of like eerie music playing in the background and creepy sound effects that are happening.
00:15:48.799 --> 00:15:58.080
And similarly, you can re-edit a horror scene and add in kind of like silly little Looney Tune stuff, and it's suddenly not as scary anymore.
00:15:58.240 --> 00:16:04.720
So comic not being in control of that aspect is another kind of like tool removed from the arsenal.
00:16:04.879 --> 00:16:20.480
And I do think we should start to build back up things comics can do, but I think it's like honestly, it's more interesting to start with stripped away, because I do think they start comics inter horror kind of backfooted, even though like horror has been such a long time uh genre in comics, right?
00:16:20.559 --> 00:16:23.600
Going back to EC stuff or all like the pre-comics code stuff.
00:16:23.679 --> 00:16:27.919
And I think probably were desensitized to a lot of like horror imagery.
00:16:28.080 --> 00:16:33.679
Where I think back then, if you're a kid reading comics, that's one of the only places you can see a like grotesque monster.
00:16:33.759 --> 00:16:34.720
You know, you're not seeing that.
00:16:36.960 --> 00:16:39.840
Yeah, it's movies probably weren't as effective, especially back then.
00:16:39.919 --> 00:16:47.200
Like if we're talking like mid-20th century, the movies weren't as effective at uh projecting like uh real horrific imagery on the screen.
00:16:47.279 --> 00:16:49.279
They didn't have the technology yet to do something like that.
00:16:49.440 --> 00:16:54.000
So the scariest thing you might have ever seen might have been a drawing in a comic book, right?
00:16:54.159 --> 00:16:59.679
Where now that we've seen every possible image in existence, I think we're desensitized to that.
00:16:59.840 --> 00:17:04.480
And we've had movies that really make these things feel real in a way that a comic isn't able to do.
00:17:04.720 --> 00:17:12.960
And another thing, talking about sound, another big thing that comics can do to some extent, but movies haven't spades is movement, obviously.
00:17:13.119 --> 00:17:15.920
And movement, I think, is so much a part of what makes horror.
00:17:16.079 --> 00:17:21.359
Like, how often have you watched a character actor in a horror movie and it's the way they moved?
00:17:21.440 --> 00:17:21.599
Yeah.
00:17:21.839 --> 00:17:22.000
Right?
00:17:22.160 --> 00:17:27.440
It's the way everything was so like moving around them, and they were the one still thing in the image.
00:17:27.599 --> 00:17:36.079
Like these are things that it's really fascinating to specifically to talk about these two, because I think these two comics in particular are still and silent.
00:17:36.319 --> 00:17:46.880
They feel quiet and they feel very, very like little still images, which is something that is true for these artists on in like all the things they do.
00:17:46.960 --> 00:17:50.720
They have this sense of like pristine stillness that is very unsettling.
00:17:50.880 --> 00:17:56.880
Whereas like most comics across the spectrum are always trying to be like, make it look dynamic, make it look look it's like it's moving.
00:17:57.039 --> 00:18:04.079
This it's like just a little like a snapshot of these moments of staged characters that look really unsettling.
00:18:04.480 --> 00:18:05.200
It's funny to imagine.
00:18:05.279 --> 00:18:09.680
Like, I think obviously the artists are intending that, but it's funny to imagine the artist hearing this and be like, hey, wait a second.
00:18:11.200 --> 00:18:12.240
What the heck?
00:18:13.119 --> 00:18:19.039
Um, but no, I completely agree because that's part of you know what tools do comics have in their arsenal, right?
00:18:19.119 --> 00:18:22.799
And I think we'll just kind of casually now transition to talking about the issues themselves.
00:18:23.039 --> 00:18:31.759
But I think that both Black Hole and Ice Cream Man, they are rendering a world that is unsettling every panel of it, right?
00:18:31.920 --> 00:18:38.480
Just every single image you're being seen, you're be you're being shown has some sort of like, God, that's an odd person.
00:18:38.640 --> 00:18:40.160
That's a strange-looking person.
00:18:40.240 --> 00:18:45.599
They've created this world that you have to live in with them that is just, yeah, it's an art style thing, right?
00:18:45.680 --> 00:18:54.720
It's just every aspect of this world that you have to like step into is a little bit strange, a little fuzzy, a little bit unscraft.
00:18:55.039 --> 00:18:56.559
Or a little too clean line.
00:18:56.960 --> 00:18:57.759
A little bit too clean line.
00:18:58.000 --> 00:19:04.480
They're both are very clean line comics, which I think does create sort of like an uncanny valley effect in some ways, you know?
00:19:04.559 --> 00:19:14.480
It makes just like even a normal looking human in the ice cream man universe kind of has a little bit of like a strangeness to them, you know, has something that's a little unsettling about them.
00:19:14.799 --> 00:19:15.839
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
00:19:16.079 --> 00:19:18.240
So yeah, so you know, talking about Ice Cream Man.
00:19:18.640 --> 00:19:21.519
So the reason I picked this issue, well, let me talk about the series for a second.
00:19:21.599 --> 00:19:28.240
So Ice Cream Man is this anthology series where every single issue is a completely different cast of characters, right?
00:19:28.319 --> 00:19:32.480
It's an anthology where each issue is its own little episode of the book.
00:19:32.720 --> 00:19:40.960
And it's tied together by this kind of like it the clown-esque figure, a sort of like a dark, like uh Rod Serling, that's his name, right?
00:19:41.039 --> 00:19:51.200
Rod Serling, where it is uh this character known as the ice cream man that is in some of the issues, is not in some of the issues, is kind of around the edges of a lot of the comic.
00:19:51.440 --> 00:19:59.599
And this character is kind of like manipulating people's lives and bringing this kind of like fantastical horror element into the worlds they're living in.
00:19:59.759 --> 00:20:07.920
And what's really fun about this comic, I think, in kind of a classic comics way, is like you truly never know what you're getting into in each issue of the book.
00:20:08.000 --> 00:20:17.920
And that's what's so exciting where we live in kind of a decompressed comic world where like, you know, Spider-Man's going to be fighting the same villain and dealing with the same problems for multiple issues at a time.
00:20:18.000 --> 00:20:25.039
So, like if you're mid-arc, you kind of have a sense of what that next comic's gonna be, but Ice Cream Man keeps you on the toe, your toes constantly.
00:20:25.200 --> 00:20:31.920
You never know what's coming, and more interestingly than that, you never know what form they're going to tell you the story in.
00:20:32.079 --> 00:20:38.240
So this book has, you know, an early issue that's like a palindrome that you can read front to back or back to front.
00:20:38.319 --> 00:20:41.680
You know, it has an issue that's just kind of like randomly in Spanish.
00:20:41.759 --> 00:20:46.880
Um, it has issues that are like uh full splash pages the entire time.
00:20:47.039 --> 00:20:51.519
It has one issue that's meant to seem like a like a tutorial that it's kind of taking you through.
00:20:51.599 --> 00:21:04.319
Uh, and that's ramped all the way up to they have an issue now, an issue of the book that it is a deck of playing cards, and each card has one panel on it, and you just like one by one kind of like deal out the issue.
00:21:04.559 --> 00:21:16.720
Uh one of my favorite issues is the one that it's um a collect it's it's written to look like a book of monsters, like a monster uh etymology is it etymology book or uh maybe.
00:21:16.799 --> 00:21:17.680
Yeah, I don't mean that.
00:21:17.759 --> 00:21:18.000
Yeah, yeah.
00:21:18.319 --> 00:21:22.079
But there's this book, and I I accidentally left that single issue on an airplane.
00:21:22.160 --> 00:21:22.240
Yeah.
00:21:22.559 --> 00:21:26.400
And I feel really mad for whoever was like going through night, because what a terrible thing is.
00:21:26.559 --> 00:21:27.519
It's like a bestiary, isn't it?
00:21:27.680 --> 00:21:28.480
Yeah, it's like a bestiary.
00:21:28.720 --> 00:21:32.640
Like they find I really love the idea of somebody like finding that in the background.
00:21:32.880 --> 00:21:33.680
It's like you're taking a lot of it.
00:21:34.400 --> 00:21:42.079
It feels like and that's what a fun thing about a horror book in general is like feeling like a magical item, like feeling like you found something from like a different universe, you know?
00:21:42.319 --> 00:21:46.079
I think that can be the power of a physical product, right?
00:21:46.160 --> 00:21:47.519
Where it can feel really magical.
00:21:47.680 --> 00:21:51.680
I remember that uh um uh man, I'm forgetting his name.
00:21:51.759 --> 00:21:55.039
Uh the WTF podcast Mark uh Mark Marin.
00:21:55.119 --> 00:21:55.759
Jeez, wow.
00:21:56.000 --> 00:21:59.119
I feel like being a podcast on a podcast is like being two beers deep.
00:21:59.279 --> 00:22:00.960
What is all We call is gone.
00:22:01.599 --> 00:22:03.759
Come on, the person that I've said probably a thousand times.
00:22:03.920 --> 00:22:09.039
But Mark Marion was during his interview with Neil Gaiman, was talking about Sandman.
00:22:09.200 --> 00:22:18.240
And Mark was describing a time of his life where he found Sandman and was so kind of strung out on drugs at the time that he was like, Yeah, man, I thought it was real.
00:22:18.799 --> 00:22:26.960
I think that's a really fun thing that like it can feel like a relic from like a different universe if you do the product right, which I think Sandman does the product really well.
00:22:27.039 --> 00:22:33.759
Uh it's a really excellent little issue that you get that really feels like something special or mystical or hor horrific, you know.
00:22:33.839 --> 00:22:37.839
And at its worst, when it's the at its scariest, I'm kind of like, I don't know if I want this in my house.
00:22:38.000 --> 00:22:38.319
You know?
00:22:38.559 --> 00:22:41.839
Can can you tell us what is the exact issue you picked and tell us what happens now?
00:22:42.319 --> 00:22:43.440
Issue 18.
00:22:43.680 --> 00:22:46.640
Um, it's called, I think, Watch as it all recedes.
00:22:47.119 --> 00:22:52.880
And this issue finds a man on his deathbed as he's starting to lose all of his memories.
00:22:53.039 --> 00:23:08.720
And the part of the issue that I thought was most effective for horror for actually trying to scare you, is that a lot of the issue is shown from his perspective, kind of a fixed perspective, as you're like uh his POV uh looking down at his feet on his bed.
00:23:08.880 --> 00:23:12.880
And you see his children come in to talk to him, you see like the nurse coming to talk to him.
00:23:13.039 --> 00:23:30.960
And in these panels, never typically not the focal point, at least not the first time, which I think is the most effective bit of horror in this, is like you see the nurse, and over the nurse's shoulder is this like horrific gremlin face that, like, I think because of the way they do it, where like you kind of see the panel first and notice the gremlin second.
00:23:31.440 --> 00:23:37.359
Depending on how your brain works, it's looking at that panel, it could be a jump scare where you're like, yes, my brain's registering nurse.
00:23:37.440 --> 00:23:38.079
Oh, what is that?
00:23:38.160 --> 00:23:46.000
You know, and it's kind of an effective bit of horror, kind of like hiding the scare within the panel, making the person feel safe, and then you notice the second.
00:23:46.480 --> 00:23:48.079
How long has it been watching the end of it?
00:23:48.319 --> 00:23:48.400
Yeah.
00:23:48.880 --> 00:24:06.480
So I think there's some really effective work where you know Martine effectively takes control of the reader by forcing them into this fixed perspective and then changing what they're being shown from this location, maybe lulling them into a fence, uh a false sense of security, and then suddenly they're like, oh wait, no, in that panel there's this thing.
00:24:06.559 --> 00:24:07.759
That's so scary, you know?
00:24:08.079 --> 00:24:18.559
So that's kind of why I picked this issue specifically, is I think it uses that little uh game really well to actually have a couple moments that I think do lean into just fear.
00:24:18.880 --> 00:24:31.839
I'd be really interested to look through the art again and just Ice Cream Man in general, and most of these horror issues is how often they are like bringing the camera so close that you can't even see the full figure.
00:24:32.000 --> 00:24:39.039
Like I think there are quite a few panels in this where it's like the person's head is slightly cut off because they're like not fitting within the box of the main character's perspective.
00:24:39.359 --> 00:24:40.240
So I don't know.
00:24:40.400 --> 00:24:48.480
I think there's only a couple times we see like a full shot of the goblin every other time, it's like right up on the frame, it feels like, or really far away, so you can't see it.
00:24:48.720 --> 00:24:48.960
Yeah.
00:24:49.119 --> 00:24:49.359
Yeah.
00:24:49.599 --> 00:24:53.359
But yeah, so then the issue just kind of follows him as he's kind of diving back into his memories.
00:24:53.440 --> 00:25:07.359
And this little gremlin is kind of like as he's trying to remember, it also utilizes kind of like a uh kind of like uh untrustworthy narration where the narrator is kind of forgetting words and they're trying to piece together what they're saying.
00:25:07.440 --> 00:25:12.000
So they use the wrong word for something, or there might be missing words inside of a caption box.
00:25:12.160 --> 00:25:22.000
So it's kind of a really effective thing when you have like that unreliable narrator that's kind of like uh you don't even feel safe with the person telling you the story, I think is an effective thing.
00:25:22.319 --> 00:25:24.319
I thought the narration was really, really impressive.
00:25:24.480 --> 00:25:26.880
I thought the way that he managed probably better than your book, even, right?
00:25:26.960 --> 00:25:29.359
Oh yeah, probably like she admits it.
00:25:29.920 --> 00:25:30.480
Game over.
00:25:31.519 --> 00:25:42.480
Um but the way that it would like break across the panel, so it would like stop at the middle, like stop mid-sentence after a word, and then restart on the next panel on the next page two words back.
00:25:42.720 --> 00:25:48.400
And you it really makes you have that sense of like restarting your sentence, trying to remember where you were at.
00:25:48.480 --> 00:25:56.880
It really is reflective of if you've ever talked to somebody who's dealing with memory loss, like that sense of them trying to catch up to like where was I and like grabbing onto phrases.
00:25:57.039 --> 00:25:58.559
And I thought that was really effectively done.
00:25:58.799 --> 00:26:00.480
Uh, do you want to tell us about black hole?
00:26:00.720 --> 00:26:01.359
Yes.
00:26:01.759 --> 00:26:07.200
So Black Hole is a book by Charles Burns, written and illustrated.
00:26:07.359 --> 00:26:10.960
Uh, it originally came out some crazy dates to throw out.
00:26:11.039 --> 00:26:16.559
It is a 12-issue miniseries that came out in single issues between 1995 and 2005.
00:26:16.799 --> 00:26:17.039
Whoa.
00:26:17.279 --> 00:26:19.200
So it came out over the course of a decade.
00:26:19.359 --> 00:26:22.960
Um, and I tried as much as I could to find like publication history.
00:26:23.039 --> 00:26:25.599
Like I wanted to find the actual dates for when the single issues came out.
00:26:25.680 --> 00:26:27.519
And it was really hard to kind of parse that.
00:26:27.599 --> 00:26:33.440
But what I was able to find is that the first four issues were originally published by Kitchen Sink Press.
00:26:33.519 --> 00:26:39.440
And then it was later picked up picked up by Fantagraphics who republished the first four issues and then published the rest of it.
00:26:39.519 --> 00:26:44.480
And then the collection that you see here was actually by Pantheon Books that collected the full thing.
00:26:44.720 --> 00:26:58.960
So it is a story set in the 1970s in the suburbs of Seattle, following a group of young teens as a disease called the bug has gone around.
00:26:59.039 --> 00:27:00.720
It is a sexually transmitted disease.
00:27:00.880 --> 00:27:07.599
Really, if you want to like a quick my quick comp for what this book feels like, it is it follows meets requiem for a dream.
00:27:07.759 --> 00:27:09.680
Like that is kind of like what the book feels like.
00:27:11.359 --> 00:27:12.720
I'm setting things to combine.
00:27:13.759 --> 00:27:14.559
Big bummer.
00:27:14.960 --> 00:27:15.759
Big bummer.
00:27:15.920 --> 00:27:18.079
Um and it's a story following.
00:27:18.480 --> 00:27:21.119
I wonder if these guys know they're allowed to write about happy things.
00:27:21.680 --> 00:27:24.640
You know, you can have like just like a fun little like you got cartoon bear.
00:27:26.079 --> 00:27:28.400
Uh I'm Martin Marasma at one time.
00:27:28.480 --> 00:27:31.119
I think the first time I met him at Comic Con, which I think you were there too.
00:27:31.279 --> 00:27:35.920
We went up and said hi, and like he was talking about his art, and he's like, Yeah, I'd love to like draw some happy stuff.
00:27:37.680 --> 00:27:40.000
But people keep hiring me for this sort of thing.
00:27:40.880 --> 00:27:44.079
I love the idea of him like drawing something and us being like it and be like, oh, that's a beautiful picture.
00:27:44.319 --> 00:27:45.440
Like, we're scared by that.
00:27:45.759 --> 00:27:47.039
Martin, you've scared us.
00:27:47.279 --> 00:27:48.319
He scared us so deeply.
00:27:48.799 --> 00:27:49.599
It's like a fun no.
00:27:50.000 --> 00:27:50.799
Not scary.
00:27:51.920 --> 00:27:55.680
He's drawing like a happy little guy, and I'm like, that's the scariest one I've ever seen.
00:27:55.920 --> 00:28:13.920
Um, yeah, so Black Hole um follows a story of essentially like kind of two main protagonists, but four central characters as they are dealing with this disease, becoming isolated from their peers, eventually living like out in the woods in isolation, leaving their families behind.
00:28:14.079 --> 00:28:24.160
Um, but all the while some someone or something has started killing teenagers out in the woods who have been infected by this sexually transmitted disease, the bug.
00:28:24.319 --> 00:28:25.839
And it plays out over the course.
00:28:26.079 --> 00:28:28.400
It's unclear how long the story takes place.
00:28:28.480 --> 00:28:35.200
Like it could be as short as I imagine, like a summer, like one school year, or it might be like five years.
00:28:35.359 --> 00:28:38.880
Like it is kind of unclear exactly the length of the thing.
00:28:39.039 --> 00:28:39.920
It kind of jumps around too.
00:28:40.400 --> 00:28:41.680
It does jump up, it does jump around.
00:28:41.759 --> 00:28:43.599
It's very unsettling, uh unsettling.
00:28:43.680 --> 00:28:51.119
It's also like incredibly psychedelic, which I think is such an unsettling thing to do in visuals of comic books, especially in black and white.
00:28:51.279 --> 00:28:59.279
Because if you haven't seen the art of this, you can see from the front cover, it's like this very harsh black-white line art that is incredibly intense to look at.
00:28:59.359 --> 00:29:01.839
And that's how the entire interior of the book is as well.
00:29:02.000 --> 00:29:06.000
There's no color, there's no gray, it's only ever pure black and white.
00:29:06.319 --> 00:29:10.319
And it really just winds you in deeper and deeper.
00:29:10.480 --> 00:29:24.160
There's these incredible sequences of because a lot of the panel structure is very just rectangular, square, very straight lines, but then they play with very simple squiggly lines to talk about, like in retrospective, those are all done with a squiggly line outline.
00:29:24.240 --> 00:29:36.319
And then there are these incredible sequences of pages where the panels are swirling together and intercutting all of this different imagery, um, which is really, really horrific and shocking as it comes together.
00:29:36.400 --> 00:29:43.359
Like one of the first sequences in issue one is um a sequence with like a frog in a dissection lab.
00:29:43.599 --> 00:29:57.519
And like the image of the frog it's a little gross, um, split open on the table as then compared to like the gash in the bottom of the foot, and then this girl whose back is ripped open, and then something else too that I can't remember off the top of my head.
00:29:57.599 --> 00:30:00.880
But it's there's a lot of parallel imagery, there's a lot of symmetry.
00:30:01.039 --> 00:30:04.319
Um, similar to Ice Cream Man, the the style is very still.
00:30:04.480 --> 00:30:14.160
The the faces are very like almost porcelain doll-esque for the the non-infected characters, and some of the infected characters don't have bizarre mutations either.
00:30:14.400 --> 00:30:22.559
Because as they get this bug, the characters begin to develop these intense mute like body horror mutations.
00:30:22.640 --> 00:30:31.359
Somebody has like a s a tail, somebody else has webbed fingers, somebody sheds all of their skin, somebody has a mouth on the bottom of on like on his collarbone.
00:30:31.759 --> 00:30:54.400
Um, so there's a wide range, and I think one thing that's really effective about like the cleanliness of Charles Burns' art style is that all of the people who aren't infected, they seem almost there's something really distancing about them because they're there's their style is so clean and put together and symmetrical with like key differences, right?
00:30:54.480 --> 00:30:57.519
Like some characters have a mole or slightly different hairstyle, but they're very clean.
00:30:57.599 --> 00:31:11.759
And then the mutated characters, in a way, to me, feel more human because they are so gro like they're completely like grotesque in different ways, but there's something that's really like organic about the way they look, which is really interesting.
00:31:12.400 --> 00:31:12.640
Yeah?
00:31:12.880 --> 00:31:14.559
Yeah, and bring that up in therapy this week.
00:31:15.440 --> 00:31:18.319
And somehow the gross ones I thought were human.
00:31:18.640 --> 00:31:19.440
That's what the books are.
00:31:20.400 --> 00:31:21.200
That's disgusting.
00:31:21.279 --> 00:31:21.920
I loved it.
00:31:22.960 --> 00:31:26.880
But uh one thing about that book too is you know, when you talk about just like cartooning, right?
00:31:26.960 --> 00:31:33.519
It is simplifying a form to like uh just a few lines and it's leaving the brain to kind of fill in the rest.
00:31:33.680 --> 00:31:41.279
And I think one thing that it does really effectively is like, you know, you can't really when you first see like the slit in the guy's neck, you're not like that's a mouth.
00:31:41.359 --> 00:31:42.880
You're like, that's a freaky little thing.
00:31:42.960 --> 00:31:47.519
And my brain's kind of like conjuring different images of like what that might be representing.
00:31:47.759 --> 00:31:50.319
So, in that way, we were talking about what prose does.
00:31:50.400 --> 00:31:56.400
I think he effectively uses cartooning to draw something you can't fully tell what it is.
00:31:56.640 --> 00:32:08.400
And your brain is filling in the gaps and being kind of like forced into this collaboration with Charles Burns to help him render out the rest of his nightmare world that he's created.
00:32:08.480 --> 00:32:14.400
So I think you're kind of like, I'm kind of learning now through this discussion about what some of the tools are for a horror common.
00:32:14.640 --> 00:32:32.319
I think it's absolutely one of them, you know, like making bringing us 60% of the way there and leaving us to fill in the rest and that simplistic not it's not really a simplistic art style, but it's just, yeah, using kind of like simple lines or symbolism to kind of like imply something horrific going on.
00:32:32.480 --> 00:32:40.240
Uh, I think it's a really effective tool for body horror specifically, where we're left to kind of like, oh, that's not quite right.
00:32:40.319 --> 00:32:41.119
What's happening there?
00:32:41.200 --> 00:32:41.599
What is that?
00:32:41.759 --> 00:32:43.279
I don't know what that slit is, you know?
00:32:43.519 --> 00:32:44.160
I don't know what that is.
00:32:44.240 --> 00:32:45.359
I don't know what color that is.
00:32:45.519 --> 00:32:50.559
Like, there's so many moments throughout the book where he describes like the color or the scent, or it's day or night.
00:32:50.640 --> 00:32:52.480
And that really brings you into it, it's like, oh, right.
00:32:52.559 --> 00:32:55.759
And you're like, you bring that color to the scene.
00:32:56.160 --> 00:33:13.039
But yeah, there's this really specific description later, which uh so the issues specifically that I referenced for this might are a dream girl and Rick the Dick, which are I honestly don't know what issue they would have been in because I couldn't find that exact count.
00:33:13.200 --> 00:33:25.440
But to me, that's where this rubber really hits the road where you're seeing these characters who have had like either had their lives ripped apart or ripped their own lives apart and started living on the fringes of society.
00:33:25.519 --> 00:33:28.799
And there's a lot of drug use in the book as well, which obviously plays into it.
00:33:28.880 --> 00:33:44.640
There's a huge, there's a really wild sequence where somebody is on acid with like these swirling lines, which I think just to digress, like surrealist black and white is really fascinating because so often that is like technicolor wild rainbows when you see that sort of art.
00:33:44.880 --> 00:33:56.400
Um, but in these later issues, it follows these characters where this sort of group of teens who have been living out in the woods have kind of found sanctuary in a house that has been left abandoned.
00:33:56.559 --> 00:34:12.239
Um, and one of the guys who let them into the house, one of the main characters, uh Keith, has gone out of the garage and he's kind of talking about the last few days and how he's like doesn't have a control over the fact these people, who are essentially like homeless, they don't have anywhere else to go, are staying in the house that he's supposed to be watching while those people are on vacation.
00:34:12.480 --> 00:34:15.119
He's just out in the garage talking about like everything that got here.
00:34:15.280 --> 00:34:29.920
And toward the end of the issue, you go in and he realizes that one of the people who's been living in this group, who is kind of the leader, this guy named Dave, who is always like portrayed as like kind of soft-spoken, a little awkward, kind of quiet, has killed everybody else.
00:34:30.559 --> 00:34:33.119
He has gone through and shot anyone he could find.
00:34:33.280 --> 00:34:41.840
And then the next issue, Rick the Dick, which I find terrifying, um, is kind of finally showing you like what Dave's whole deal is.
00:34:42.000 --> 00:34:49.119
That Dave used to be like this really lonely, um, isolated nerd, essentially at the school who was bullied.
00:34:49.199 --> 00:34:51.440
And he and his friend, Dave, and his friend Rick.
00:34:51.519 --> 00:34:53.119
So Dave is the main guy who shot everyone.
00:34:53.199 --> 00:34:54.639
Rick is the other guy.
00:34:54.719 --> 00:34:56.719
And they like all you know about them is they were like nerds.
00:34:56.800 --> 00:34:58.400
They were in chess club, they were ugly.
00:34:58.480 --> 00:35:01.679
Like the other characters literally talk about them as like they were these outsiders.
00:35:02.159 --> 00:35:12.719
And Dave has kind of like taken Rick under his wing and has like been bringing him food while they're living in the wilderness and having Rick like kill the other people that are getting out of line.
00:35:12.960 --> 00:35:27.039
Um and you watch as Dave, there's this horrifying sequence where he's in like uh a Kentucky fried chicken ordering, like ordering at the counter, and these people come up behind you, these normies come up behind him and are like, he's got this.
00:35:27.119 --> 00:35:39.280
I don't know how to describe it, his face is sort of like bulbous and folded over in like a he almost looks dog like, but it's all like flesh, sort of folded over in strange like ripples.
00:35:39.519 --> 00:35:45.119
He is a goddess hood up, he's ordering the counter, and he's very soft-spoken, very quiet, very still, talking about the stillness.
00:35:45.199 --> 00:35:48.320
Is that, and the guy behind him is like, yeah, get out of here, you're scaring everyone.
00:35:48.480 --> 00:35:50.800
And he's like, No, I just want my fried chicken, like I don't want to cause a problem.
00:35:50.880 --> 00:35:52.239
And the guy's like, No, you get out of here.
00:35:52.400 --> 00:35:55.199
And Dave just pulls a gun and he's like, I'm not leaving without my chicken.
00:35:55.360 --> 00:35:57.679
And it's like, it's so scary.
00:35:57.840 --> 00:36:06.559
And then he like gives this horrifying but very like so minimalistly done speech where he like spits in that guy's mouth and is like, you're one of us now.
00:36:06.719 --> 00:36:07.519
That's all it takes.
00:36:07.760 --> 00:36:08.079
Yeah, yeah.
00:36:08.320 --> 00:36:10.000
And he just like walks out.
00:36:10.159 --> 00:36:11.280
It's horrifying.
00:36:11.440 --> 00:36:17.760
And it's like, I think so many people, when they do think about horror, they think about that, they think about that.
00:36:17.840 --> 00:36:21.519
And I think what both of these books do really well is like, what if we just slow it down for a second?
00:36:21.599 --> 00:36:22.960
What if I wasn't screaming?
00:36:23.119 --> 00:36:24.320
What if I wasn't running?
00:36:24.480 --> 00:36:30.880
What if I was just sitting here and telling you something really, really horrible and making making I've thought this out all so clearly.
00:36:30.960 --> 00:36:32.239
I'm not rushing through any of it.
00:36:32.400 --> 00:36:35.519
And I think that's really it's it's really fascinating.
00:36:35.679 --> 00:36:48.800
I think it's really well it's funny you talk about the guy with his face folded over because that's something that like in this comic is almost PG, where like if you were to render that out fully or show a realistic depiction of that, it'd be like just so horrific.
00:36:48.960 --> 00:37:01.920
If he did such a hard R, which I know they did eventually make this in the Preacher TV show, and I can't really picture it, but like I think of like Ars face from Preacher, where it's like his head is supposed to look like, you know, an asshole.
00:37:02.079 --> 00:37:10.880
Uh, which adds like the drawing is just like some lines, but if you have to render that out fully in a in a TV show, it's suddenly like, oh my gosh, what are we doing here?
00:37:11.119 --> 00:37:14.079
And also part of it is like it goes over the line in the wrong direction.
00:37:14.159 --> 00:37:16.159
It's not always necessarily scarier.
00:37:16.239 --> 00:37:17.760
It comes, it becomes like weird.
00:37:18.000 --> 00:37:19.199
You don't need to, yeah.
00:37:19.360 --> 00:37:26.480
Which I want to compliment Ice Cream Man because I think the the coloring is so perfect to keep it in that sense of like stillness.
00:37:26.559 --> 00:37:30.719
It's not trying to like, it does add all this depth and dimension, but it's not overdoing it.
00:37:30.800 --> 00:37:38.320
It's a very both of these books have a very practiced and restrained hand, which is I think part of what makes them so effective and makes you stick with it.
00:37:38.400 --> 00:37:47.199
I remember the first time I saw Ice Cream Man on the Shelf, I was like years and years and years ago, I was too nervous to pick it up because I was like, I think this is gonna really freak me out.
00:37:47.280 --> 00:37:49.199
Like I think this art is gonna really freak me out.
00:37:49.440 --> 00:38:03.760
I mean, you can see it from both of them, and this is just the the cover of the volume two Sunday edition, but from both of the covers we have right now, they they are just kind of good encapsulations of the book's similarities where it's just two normal human faces, but they're just scary.
00:38:03.920 --> 00:38:07.679
They both have these kind of stretched out, unsettling smiles, you know.
00:38:07.760 --> 00:38:16.639
Uh, and that's the thing, too, is they're both smiling at you, but they're both so clearly the cover of horror books, even though you couldn't quite detail exactly what's making it so unsettling.
00:38:16.719 --> 00:38:18.960
I mean, for her, it's pretty obviously that they rendered all the teeth.
00:38:19.039 --> 00:38:21.840
We're both in, they rendered all the teeth, which is an easy way to render all the teeth.
00:38:21.920 --> 00:38:22.400
That's the big trend.
00:38:26.159 --> 00:38:27.599
Such a funny little similarity they have.
00:38:27.920 --> 00:38:36.000
Every time I look at Charles Byrne's art, I'm like, how that the shiny hair effect he does, and it's just black and white, and it's I can't believe it.
00:38:36.159 --> 00:38:41.360
It's the most shocking and impressive thing to me that he gets these like it looks like a glossy head of hair.
00:38:41.519 --> 00:38:42.320
It's so impressive.
00:38:42.480 --> 00:38:46.079
It's like I don't know, I you can do crazy things with art.
00:38:46.639 --> 00:38:47.679
Drawings incredible.
00:38:48.079 --> 00:38:49.679
Jake, what do you think about our comic books?
00:38:50.000 --> 00:38:52.000
Uh I mean, I think they're both fantastic.
00:38:52.159 --> 00:38:54.159
I am great, great picks.
00:38:54.400 --> 00:39:09.840
Um I wanted to put out that, you know, you brought up something that I'd wanted to discuss, yeah, which is the idea that um I think horror kind of lives best in the unknown.
00:39:10.239 --> 00:39:12.639
Uh to me, that's what makes a horror thing.
00:39:12.719 --> 00:39:42.559
When you're talking about the definition of horror, the thing that separates a horror from like a thriller or an action adventure or something like that, to me, is that it's grappling with these unknown questions and just kind of letting things live in this world of something beyond normal or beyond explainable, which is why I like in the horror fan community, there are things that are big questions for people.
00:39:42.719 --> 00:39:46.159
One of the big questions is like that comes up a lot is is Jaws a horror movie?
00:39:46.239 --> 00:39:47.840
And Jaws my favorite movie of all time.
00:39:47.920 --> 00:39:48.639
I love Jaws.
00:39:48.880 --> 00:39:56.159
And I argue that Jaws is a horror movie because there is something otherworldly about this shark.
00:39:56.239 --> 00:39:58.880
Like they're not just out there fighting a shark.
00:39:59.119 --> 00:40:01.119
There's something beyond.
00:40:01.280 --> 00:40:08.320
It's not acting natural, it's not doing what a shark normally does in its hunting patterns or whatever.
00:40:08.559 --> 00:40:16.719
And there's something about that that is also forcing these characters to look at nature and look at the world and how they interact with it.
00:40:16.880 --> 00:40:28.320
It goes beyond this question of here's this thing that is out there eating people, uh, to like again, like a man in a world that is hostile.
00:40:28.559 --> 00:40:30.880
It just takes on this bigger thing.
00:40:31.119 --> 00:41:12.159
Um and I think that both of these uh comics do a great job of dealing with that because um they are somewhat restrained, like they are uh uh looking at these questions as sort of questions and wanting you, the reader, to fill in a lot of this information, which is why I think uh uh it is hard for comics to do horror because you get a lot of information or you can, you know, like it's very easy to kind of fill things out for people, uh as opposed to just pure prose where you are filling in a lot of information or that kind of thing.
00:41:12.400 --> 00:41:34.559
Um and one of the other things that I loved about both of these choices, is something that I get frustrated with with a lot of horror, um, is I think with a lot of horror, especially nowadays, you are not really getting what the person who made it is afraid of.
00:41:34.880 --> 00:41:37.840
You're getting what horror things that person likes.
00:41:38.079 --> 00:41:44.480
You're watching someone's horror movie, you're reading someone's horror novel, and you're going, oh, this guy likes this thing.
00:41:44.639 --> 00:41:46.880
Oh, this guy was inspired by X.
00:41:48.000 --> 00:41:56.559
They're not inspired by their fear as much, which I think is what makes a great horror story is when you can read it and you go, oh, like this guy's afraid of something.
00:41:56.719 --> 00:41:56.960
Yeah.
00:41:57.760 --> 00:42:00.480
There's a real fear that this person is wrestling with.
00:42:00.719 --> 00:42:11.599
And I think in Ice Cream Man, it's great because that fear of losing your mental capacity, losing your ability to speak and communicate.
00:42:11.760 --> 00:42:13.599
I think that's something everyone wrestles with.
00:42:13.760 --> 00:42:17.440
I thought it was great that you could not remember Mark Marin's name.
00:42:20.079 --> 00:42:20.800
The gremlins in there.
00:42:21.119 --> 00:42:22.639
He's a new podcast memory.
00:42:24.639 --> 00:42:29.519
But, you know, like, and I think it really beautifully examines that.
00:42:29.679 --> 00:42:36.639
You know, it paints it in a way that when you read it, you're reading him losing the words, and you're trying to fill in the words too.
00:42:36.719 --> 00:42:39.760
You're reading and saying, like, oh, he's he said, oh, that's what it is.
00:42:39.920 --> 00:42:43.599
You know, you're you're there with him in a way that I think is really kind of brilliant.
00:42:43.840 --> 00:42:47.760
And with Charles Burns and Black Hole, like sex is scary.
00:42:47.920 --> 00:42:53.679
The image that you were trying to remember that you could not when they have the you know, the frog scene.
00:42:53.840 --> 00:42:54.079
Yeah, yeah.
00:42:54.320 --> 00:42:56.719
And this is just the image.
00:42:57.280 --> 00:43:02.400
It's a woman covering her, I believe it's a woman covering her genitals, her private parts.
00:43:02.880 --> 00:43:03.519
It's very sexual.
00:43:03.760 --> 00:43:20.320
And there's it's a very sexual book, but then like it it, you know, when I read it, I was a much younger person, and it reminded me of how much sex is scary when you're young, and especially if you grew up post-AIDS crisis.
00:43:20.719 --> 00:43:24.480
Yeah, which this book would have been like it's very scary.
00:43:24.800 --> 00:43:47.599
Um, and this book wrestles with that in that Jaws way of building it out where it's not just, oh no, there's a disease floating around, but it's a disease that grows beyond a simple lesion or whatever it is, uh uh uh it feels almost biblical in this very like small town kind of way.
00:43:48.000 --> 00:43:59.760
Um so yeah, I think you know, both of them are so effective in that horror of not necessarily jump scare horror, but uh uh uh emotional, almost existential.
00:44:00.880 --> 00:44:01.440
Horror.
00:44:02.880 --> 00:44:08.639
Which I that was one of the questions that I wanted to ask you both as you've picked these titles.
00:44:11.840 --> 00:44:14.480
How did they resonate with you as readers?
00:44:14.639 --> 00:44:27.119
Did you find a personal connection to the fear in these, or were you looking at it more as a um like a style exercise?
00:44:27.280 --> 00:44:30.960
Again, like, oh, you've managed to make this an evocative horror story.
00:44:31.440 --> 00:44:36.320
Yeah, I think that I definitely share in the dread of Ice Cream Man.
00:44:36.400 --> 00:44:42.880
I think that like Ice Cream Man's view of the world is not a view that I typically share.
00:44:42.960 --> 00:44:49.440
I don't think I'm someone that's typically struggling with that kind of like existential like dread of everything around me, right?
00:44:49.599 --> 00:44:58.320
Where reading Ice Cream Man sometimes feels like someone who does view the world that way, like grabbing me and forcing me to view the world through this very like.
00:44:58.880 --> 00:45:02.239
I mean, it has moments of levity, it has moments of bright.
00:45:02.400 --> 00:45:06.719
He he will sometimes try to be like, but everything will turn out fine or can or love's nice.
00:45:06.880 --> 00:45:19.599
But like it just that that feels like little like gasps through just like such a deep cynicism about the world and such a deep, like we're all here and then we die mentality that Ice Cream Man seems to have.
00:45:19.679 --> 00:45:26.639
Like, Ice Cream Man quite frequently will put someone's entire life um on display in the 20 pages, right?
00:45:26.719 --> 00:45:31.519
And that has this effect of making life feel so small, so trivial.
00:45:31.679 --> 00:45:36.800
Oftentimes these people are shown through just like the four worst moments of their lives, right?
00:45:36.880 --> 00:45:40.320
So it's like this guy who's like, I was a kid and then I found love.
00:45:40.480 --> 00:45:45.920
And then for a reason that I cannot explain and I don't understand, I was not nice to my family.
00:45:46.239 --> 00:45:47.039
I just was mean.
00:45:47.119 --> 00:45:52.320
And like it's him being like thinking back of these memories, being like, I wanted to be nice.
00:45:52.559 --> 00:45:54.159
All I want was to be happy.
00:45:54.320 --> 00:45:55.760
Why was I so cold there?
00:45:55.920 --> 00:45:57.039
Why was I so mean to her?
00:45:57.119 --> 00:46:08.960
Which is definitely something that that I'm reading that and like having that experience of like, you know, moments that you've been the same, moments that you've reacted like angrily or cold when you're like, what am I upset about?
00:46:09.119 --> 00:46:09.920
What am I doing?
00:46:10.079 --> 00:46:14.880
Why am I not just like if I would just smile and be happy, this would be like a nice moment.
00:46:14.960 --> 00:46:22.639
But for some reason, there's some gremlin in your brain that's making you be like, I'm upset right now and I'm gonna be mean and cold to people around me for no real reason.
00:46:22.800 --> 00:46:24.480
It's just gonna make my life worse and theirs.
00:46:24.639 --> 00:46:34.079
So this person on his deathbed looking back at his life that he can't even remember anymore and being like, Yeah, let's see, I was a kid and then I was a bad father and now I'm dying.
00:46:34.239 --> 00:46:36.480
And it's such a simplification of life.
00:46:37.599 --> 00:46:38.719
It's so sad.
00:46:38.960 --> 00:46:41.119
It's it's it's it's horrific, you know.
00:46:41.199 --> 00:46:55.440
Uh it is a book that like trying to read it alone at night, like it's too much just just dread, just a way it recontextualizes your own life in a way you have to like kind of like claw back and be like, no, I'm not sad, Martin.
00:46:55.840 --> 00:46:57.840
Martin and W.
00:46:59.199 --> 00:47:00.639
It's your real name, W.
00:47:01.679 --> 00:47:02.800
I think life's pretty good.
00:47:03.039 --> 00:47:04.800
I smile more often than I'm sad.
00:47:04.880 --> 00:47:06.079
So keep this shit.
00:47:08.079 --> 00:47:09.599
I'm sorry you feel bad.
00:47:10.639 --> 00:47:12.719
But but that's to say yes.
00:47:13.360 --> 00:47:16.400
It definitely does grab me and show me that vision of the world.
00:47:16.719 --> 00:47:22.480
Yeah, I think for me, yes, but not in the way I expected.
00:47:22.559 --> 00:47:24.880
I I do not remember when I first read it.
00:47:25.039 --> 00:47:28.400
I think when I first read it, it was mainly just, oh my gosh, what did I just read?
00:47:28.480 --> 00:47:31.119
All those spooky sex images are so scary.
00:47:31.360 --> 00:48:02.880
Um, but the second read the this most recent reading before this podcast was really jumping out to me as a very key fear that I have, let's get personal, is that a momentary mistake or misjudgment will ruin your entire life, which I think is like a very core part of black hole, especially in um the second issue, which is which I think is the second issue, which focuses on our second protagonist, Chris, um, the who has this guy that she really likes and she thinks he's really cute.
00:48:03.280 --> 00:48:06.960
And they hit it off at a party and they start hooking up in a graveyard.
00:48:07.039 --> 00:48:09.199
And he's like, Hey, Chris, I have to tell you something.
00:48:09.760 --> 00:48:14.559
And Chris thinks he's about to tell her about the fact that he has a girlfriend.
00:48:14.800 --> 00:48:14.880
Yeah.
00:48:15.039 --> 00:48:16.800
And she's like, No, no, no, I know it's okay.
00:48:17.039 --> 00:48:17.840
And he's like, You know?
00:48:18.000 --> 00:48:19.119
And she's like, Yeah, I know.
00:48:19.599 --> 00:48:29.519
They proceed to have sex and then she sees that he has the bug, that he has this mouth on his clavicle, and like mid-sex realizes this.
00:48:29.679 --> 00:48:32.159
And it's this thing of like, well, it's already too late.
00:48:32.320 --> 00:48:33.760
Your life is already ruined.
00:48:33.840 --> 00:48:38.880
Like, or that's kind of the question of the book is does does a momentary mistake have to ruin your life?
00:48:38.960 --> 00:48:39.760
And we kind of see these two.
00:48:40.079 --> 00:48:42.880
So if it gives you weird freaky mutations, then yes.
00:48:44.000 --> 00:48:45.039
It gives you weird freaky mutations.
00:48:45.199 --> 00:48:47.360
If it makes you shed your skin constantly, then yeah.
00:48:48.239 --> 00:48:48.639
Probably.
00:48:49.119 --> 00:48:59.280
Well, and that's kind of the thing we see between Chris and Keith is Chris, it does kind of go on to in a way, it does kind of slowly tear her life apart.
00:48:59.440 --> 00:49:00.800
She like loses her family.
00:49:01.039 --> 00:49:05.440
The the boy she had a crush on gets murdered, like she ends up on her own and alone.
00:49:05.519 --> 00:49:07.760
And like, we hope that she's moving toward recovery.
00:49:07.920 --> 00:49:17.280
And then the other protagonist, Keith, who very knowingly contracts this disease, like goes on to have potentially a happy life.
00:49:17.360 --> 00:49:35.199
He's like on the road with a woman he likes, and it seems like they're happy, but there's still this sense of like that is something that's very relatable to me, especially around questions of like when I was a kid and thinking about all the scary adult things I would have eventually have to do, and that like things might get ruined, or like if you mess up your taxes, you're going to jail.
00:49:35.360 --> 00:49:40.400
If you accidentally like you fall asleep at the wheel and you kill someone in a car accident.
00:49:40.559 --> 00:49:43.760
Like, I think this book really addresses that sort of fear.
00:49:43.840 --> 00:49:46.880
Um, and that's something I can really understand.
00:49:47.199 --> 00:49:47.599
Boom.
00:49:55.119 --> 00:49:55.679
I don't know how much.
00:49:57.760 --> 00:50:05.920
Um, but I would say actually, on the flip side of what you're saying, uh Jake Thomas, about fear is the like the not knowing.
00:50:06.079 --> 00:50:09.760
I think part of what fear can also be is really effectively saying the knowing.
00:50:09.840 --> 00:50:12.719
Like we as the reader know it and the re and the characters don't.
00:50:12.960 --> 00:50:21.840
Like this is a great book for that too, because as I was talking about with that scene where Chris contracts the disease, we the reader already know that guy has it.
00:50:22.000 --> 00:50:25.199
And we're watching her unknowingly get into this situation.
00:50:25.280 --> 00:50:32.639
And then later in the book, when Keith uh is like approaching somebody to have sex with them, and also we know that person's sick.
00:50:32.960 --> 00:50:33.840
He knows it too.
00:50:33.920 --> 00:50:39.920
But there is this sense of like, you as the reader are like, I know what's gonna happen to you if you do this.
00:50:40.079 --> 00:50:47.760
Like, and there's a funny, the very opening sequence of the book is Keith in biology class saying, like, I feel like I got a vision of the past and I knew what was gonna happen.
00:50:47.840 --> 00:50:49.119
And like that is kind of the book.
00:50:49.199 --> 00:50:49.280
Yeah.
00:50:49.599 --> 00:50:54.159
It's like it's saying this one moment is going to control the destiny of the rest of your life.
00:50:54.320 --> 00:50:56.480
And that I don't think that's like the message.
00:50:56.559 --> 00:50:58.480
It's saying, like, is that true?
00:50:58.559 --> 00:50:59.840
Yeah, is that what happens?
00:51:00.079 --> 00:51:00.480
Yeah, yeah.
00:51:00.639 --> 00:51:02.800
But it's scary to apply that in your own life.
00:51:02.880 --> 00:51:03.199
Yeah, yeah.
00:51:03.440 --> 00:51:11.519
I also I liked uh I liked it, it made sense for that book, but I love taking any any horror victim that lives at the end of the book and being like, I hope they're moving towards recovery.
00:51:12.320 --> 00:51:13.920
I hope they're on a path to recovery.
00:51:14.239 --> 00:51:15.440
She's floating in the ocean.
00:51:15.519 --> 00:51:18.639
She says I could stay out here forever, and it's like maybe she drowns.
00:51:18.800 --> 00:51:19.280
Like, I don't know.
00:51:19.519 --> 00:51:20.880
I hope she's moving towards recovery.
00:51:21.519 --> 00:51:23.280
Had you read Ice Cream Man before?
00:51:23.519 --> 00:51:24.880
Yeah, I'd read a couple issues.
00:51:24.960 --> 00:51:32.079
I had not read that issue in particular, I don't think, which again was why I was very curious why you chose that one out of all of them, you know.
00:51:32.400 --> 00:51:34.639
Um, but I've really enjoyed it.
00:51:34.719 --> 00:51:37.679
I've wanted to read more, so I was thrilled to have an excuse.
00:51:37.920 --> 00:51:42.000
Um, and that's my copy of Black Hole, so I've read Black Hole before.
00:51:42.480 --> 00:51:48.480
Um, you've got not to buy us, not D bias.
00:51:51.679 --> 00:51:59.760
It is tough because uh like you know, Black Hole was uh a very meaningful book for me when I read it.
00:51:59.840 --> 00:52:21.679
It was, you know, one of those comics that um caused me to really get excited about what comics can do because again, his art, the way he crafts a story, uh is just extraordinary and um I again just explodes the medium in a really fun way.
00:52:22.000 --> 00:52:26.320
Um I really loved this issue of Ice Cream Man.
00:52:26.639 --> 00:52:41.199
Uh again, I I think you know it it uses all the the parts of comics in a fun way to the point of like letting the lettering speak for the story, letting the coloring speak for the story.
00:52:41.280 --> 00:52:51.679
Like it's uh amongst the issues of that book that I've read, I did feel like that was a standout, like I a really, really extraordinary issue.
00:52:51.920 --> 00:52:59.440
Um I I have tried to remove my personal bias, but perhaps it still lingers.
00:52:59.599 --> 00:53:01.760
I I have to choose black hole.
00:53:02.000 --> 00:53:07.039
Uh a brilliant piece of work that I do think is just one of the standout comics of the movie.
00:53:07.440 --> 00:53:08.719
You know what's really scary, kids?
00:53:08.880 --> 00:53:09.519
The system.
00:53:10.639 --> 00:53:11.920
And it's rigged against you.
00:53:12.079 --> 00:53:12.239
Wow.
00:53:12.639 --> 00:53:14.400
And you can never really win.
00:53:15.119 --> 00:53:16.639
All right, ice cream man.
00:53:17.679 --> 00:53:18.960
Um but this was great.
00:53:19.039 --> 00:53:27.440
Again, as a big horror nut, I was thrilled to have this conversation and have an excuse to reread and read some great horror comics.
00:53:27.599 --> 00:53:28.559
Uh so thank you guys.
00:53:28.719 --> 00:53:29.440
Uh I'm again.
00:53:29.599 --> 00:53:30.639
Can you excuse me for a second?
00:53:39.519 --> 00:53:40.960
You can't do this to me.
00:53:42.079 --> 00:53:44.960
You're experiencing your own personal horror right now.
00:53:46.159 --> 00:53:47.039
Uh thanks, sorry.
00:53:49.519 --> 00:53:52.800
Uh this is what lost fit.
00:53:53.599 --> 00:53:54.000
Wow.
00:53:54.559 --> 00:53:55.119
First one.
00:53:55.519 --> 00:53:56.320
You look are you okay?
00:53:56.400 --> 00:53:58.400
You look red, you look kind of delirious.
00:54:00.639 --> 00:54:03.039
You're having visions of your past slash future?
00:54:03.360 --> 00:54:06.239
I d uh what w one, I I won.
00:54:06.960 --> 00:54:07.679
I won.
00:54:08.800 --> 00:54:10.480
I picked black hole.
00:54:13.440 --> 00:54:13.840
Uh well.
00:54:14.320 --> 00:54:15.440
Any closing thoughts on that?
00:54:15.840 --> 00:54:17.119
Uh I feel like I deserve this.
00:54:17.280 --> 00:54:18.400
I'm glad to see you fall.
00:54:31.760 --> 00:54:33.119
Hey, thanks for listening.
00:54:33.280 --> 00:54:40.800
If you liked hearing our thoughts on other comics, you should check out our comics, available at any local comic book store or online at idwpublishing.com.
