Best Comic Crossover

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Welcome to Superlatives, the show where comics go head to head.
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Every episode we pick a superlative theme.
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This week, it's best comic book crossover issue between different companies.
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Two of our editors each nominate a comic they think deserves the title, then step into the ring to make their case.
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When the arguments are done, our moderator, which is me this week, delivers the final verdict, deciding which comic walks away with this episode's superlative.
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My name is Dave Wilgis.
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I'm a comic book writer and a contract editor here at IDW.
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I'm also the first person to lose this show twice.
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Can I lose as the moderator?
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Today we're gonna find out.
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Here are the editors competing against each other today and the books they'll be representing.
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Hey, I'm Jake Williams.
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I'm an editor at IDW Comics.
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I'm also the reason Dave's a contract editor because of the way he treated me.
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He's now on probation.
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Uh today I'm representing the Battle of the Century.
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Superman versus Amazing, uh the amazing Spider-Man.
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Uh it's uh the greatest superhero team up of all time.
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Hi, I'm Nicholas Nino.
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I'm uh also an editor at EW, and I am also the reason that Jake found the courage to speak up against Dave Wilgus.
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Today I will be representing Robocop versus Terminator, which is this issue too.
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Uh the greatest crossover of all time.
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No, mine says that on the cover.
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Yours isn't that's not part of the title.
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Yes, mine is in flipped there.
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Wow.
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Wow.
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They didn't need Twitter online.
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Everyone knew.
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Alright, the combo crossover, a time-honored tradition.
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Uh there are times in comics where we don't.
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What if we just what uh how are you doing?
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Uh me?
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Yeah, how are you doing?
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I'm doing great.
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I'm sorry we'd be here with you guys today.
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Are you sure?
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Yeah.
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Wait, Dave, you went to Emerald City Comic Con.
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I did, yeah.
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Yeah.
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How was that?
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It was kind of like a crossover.
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I went to a place I'm usually not, and I went to a place where other people are, and then Dave Wilkes from LA.
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Yeah, yeah.
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This is crazy.
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That is crazy.
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So the way comic book events are like crossovers with creators.
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Now, did you see other creators and before you realized you were allies, did you get into some like misplaced battles?
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Yeah, there's a section on the floor for fights next to artist alley.
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I see.
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And then there's a friend zone where you like have a coffee and catch up and go, what's going on?
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Do you also have like a complicated origin?
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Where did you spend your time?
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Artist Alley.
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Artist Alley?
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Not in Friend Zone or Fight Zone?
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Nope.
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I was mostly in Artist Alley.
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People know me, I'm a known quantity.
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I've already had my fights in these industries.
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Now, Dave, was there a person that you had heard of their name for a while that when you saw them, you maybe were like, I don't like your vibe, but by the end of the weekend you were having a great time?
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There was a couple people I'd never met before where by the end of the week I was like, I like the cut of that guy's jib.
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I think we're gonna be friends.
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That's a positive thing.
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I I I'd never met Tony Fleaks before, the great Tony Fleeks, and we had dinner together and uh we were on the same flight back, and he was uh a lovely, lovely man on top of being uh one of the best and most uh celebrated people in our industry currently.
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Wow.
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We did not fight though.
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I think he would have bested me.
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Well, Nick Tony versus Dave, who comes out on top Tony versus Dave.
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Now that's interesting.
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I've only met uh Tony the once, and it was very briefly, but he is uh he is a looming presence.
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He's much taller than me at least.
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Um I do think that counts for a lot.
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Yeah, height's important.
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That's important in a fight.
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That's the thing.
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All these power scalers, they rarely talk about height.
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We're gonna talk a lot about power scaling.
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It's assumed to be like similar heights, it seems like like Batman and Superman are always kind of the same.
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Yes, yeah, yes, typically.
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I mean I like when Batman's a little shorter.
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Yeah, I love that.
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Do you see that Pat Gleason cover?
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Remember that one?
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Yeah, some of the shorter and that's shorter.
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Yeah, I love that one.
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Yeah, I should yeah.
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So again, today we're talking about combo crossovers, a timeline or tradition in our industry.
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Uh, there are moments in the Nick and I are doing well.
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Yeah, you guys are doing whole.
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I'm so sorry.
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You guys aren't really a crossover, you're more of like an everyday.
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Tony Fleeks was so mad at you when you guys met you're more of like a Batman and Robin or like uh like a super Spider-Man, the human torch, just like something we get very often, but we still enjoy it.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Nick and I are roommates, and we were roommates before we started working together at IDW.
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So that's crazy.
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We met at a comic book store, and it wasn't that we started as enemies, but I didn't know his name for a long time.
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And then the first time that I remembered his name, we started talking about comic books.
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That was cool.
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I I didn't know his face for a long time.
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I would confuse him with someone else that works there.
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Dave has severe facial blindness, that's why I had to grow the mustache.
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He couldn't separate me out.
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Yeah, well, now you have more of like a Los Felos face.
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Yeah, now I confuse him and Dave, even though Dave has a full beauty.
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Yeah, I was gonna say, all three men on this podcast are wearing hats, Dave.
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Only one of them is bald.
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Is he guess who?
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This is the hat podcast.
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Can we change this to a topic of like the biggest hats in pot in comics?
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Uh uh the biggest hat.
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Matt hatters.
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Matt Hatter.
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Yeah, doesn't the thinker have a hat or a helmet?
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Probably not bigger than Matt Hatters.
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I don't think it's bigger than Matt Hatters.
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Matt Hatter is also like a shorter character, so his hat is even taller than that.
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Like, not so literally, it's like most prominent, most important.
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I don't think it's Matt Hatter.
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I think Jake's right.
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I think he nailed it in one.
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Okay.
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So uh what were we talking about?
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Oh, how we met.
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So then uh we met.
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They I'd say anyone who gets hired at IDW, I go through a team up relationship with where like I hear they're getting hired, I'm like, what are we doing?
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Why are we bringing in someone like that?
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Well, what uh what do we what do we want from them here?
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Yeah, you know, because I'm just like, just let me do it.
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And they're like, no, we're bringing in Dave.
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And then I met him and he knew about all the podcasts I like and all the alternative comedy things we like.
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All the bands.
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All the bands that I like.
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Yeah.
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So things are pretty good.
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Yeah, that's he mob worked out.
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It worked up uh and that's been a long-term success.
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In the office, we have uh desk far away in a different corner for Jake where he can just kind of He looms large and watches over everybody.
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It's like a loft area.
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It's it's kind of a problem because it's like you're it's a solution to a problem of Jake always being confrontational with people when they walk in the office.
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None of that's true at all.
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Stop joking around.
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This is this is fantastic.
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Can we be serious for a second?
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We're about to get serious.
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Jesus.
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Yes.
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Uh, because as I said, uh there are times in this business where crossovers are in vogue and crossovers are out of vogue.
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Right now, crossovers are wildly in vogue.
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Marvel and DC are teaming up again for the first time in decades.
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Uh, even at our company, IDW, we've done some pretty terrific crossovers lately, including TMNT Ninja Turtles and TMNT Batman.
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Uh, crossovers are very fun.
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You corporate show.
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You know, I'm just talking about stuff.
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I personally go back and forth on how much I like crossovers.
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I think because they were out of vogue when I was coming up in comics in the in the mid-2000s, JLA Avengers had happened and it felt like it slammed the door on the crossover for a long time.
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I was like, oh, we don't really need to do this.
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We don't need to talk about these.
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Now they're in vogue again, and I'm a little older, I'm less of a snob, and I'm like, this is just fun.
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We're having a good time.
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And I think these two books you guys have brought today represent the two different types of crossovers.
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Uh, Jake and Superman Spider-Man, I think you have, you know, two iconic combo companies bring their two most iconic characters together in what was truly the event of a century.
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Batman erasure.
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And now we're gearing up for the well, Batman's fine.
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He's gonna be fine, guys.
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And now we're dealing, we're gonna we're about to have the second uh team up between those two characters.
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I think I have that right.
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Uh second and third in a couple weeks with uh the release of Superman, Spider-Man, Spider-Man, Superman, one from DC, one from Marvel, reuniting these characters once again.
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And Nick, your crossover is kind of a thing that at the time could only happen in comics where you bring together two pop culture titans in uh what is like a budgetless environment in comics where you can just do the most epic, cool thing that at the time you certainly couldn't do in a movie.
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Uh, I think that's now changed since we've had movies like Alien vs.
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Predator and certainly other crossovers, but like, you know, there was a long time in the 90s, especially from Dark Horse, where like these type of crossovers only happen in comics and really set a pop culture precedent.
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So I'm really excited to hear you guys both talk about them today.
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Yeah, just to kind of follow up on what you were saying about like going back and forth on crossovers, like to just talk about crossovers as a concept first.
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Like I I think I think crossovers are tough.
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I think they're tough.
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I think that in general when I hear about a crossover, I'm not like typically that excited.
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Like it has to really feel right in a way, but it's not something that I I don't know.
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And it's something that's so uniquely comic, so there is something that I like about it there, but it just kind of feels like you know, you kind of know what's gonna happen, you know they're gonna meet each other, they're gonna stiff kind of tussle at first and then join forces to go after a greater anime.
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And it's like it's the type of thing where people are like, Whoa, isn't it so awesome that X character is meeting X character?
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But it's like you can just like daydream about that as well.
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You don't need someone else to always do your daydreaming for 100%.
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I mean, especially now that we live in the time of like fan we've lived in a time of like fan fiction, like fan-created art.
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You know, you see a lot of kind of stuff online where people are like, if this happened, this would happen.
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And unfortunately, now with like some tools we're not gonna talk about, people are making crossovers in a way that's illegal, gross, and not cool.
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Um but actually, you know, the AI crossovers are so bad and so stupid that I actually think it kind of shines a light on why these crossovers are good and cool.
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You're absolutely right, yeah.
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You're absolutely right.
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And again, like the the thing that's awesome about both of these is I think you know, so in in the 90s, there was a lot of crossover between Marvel and DC, and there's a lot of good ones, but they had they were doing so many at that point that, like, you know, you didn't always get like um super top-tier talent on every single one.
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I'd say like on these two books, you get some pretty incredible people joining forces, and I think that's the thing that can also make the difference in the crossover, like, well, who's doing it?
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Yeah, so you know, to talk about Superman uh versus the amazing Spider-Man.
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You know, back then these crossovers, and these are both great examples, the creative teams are absurd for both of these.
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Uh they made them feel momentous.
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It felt like a big deal, and the companies are treating it like a big deal.
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Like, uh, one thing you'll notice about this book as you get into the creative team is that the credited editors are the editor-in-chiefs of the company.
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Yes, you know, it is Carmine and Fantino and Stan Lee as the credited editors.
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It's written by Jerry Conway, who was the first writer to take over the Amazing Spider-Man after Stan Lee passed the torch.
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He also at the time was working at DC.
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So he had just jumped ship.
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He was at DC Comics at this point.
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So he'd written The Amazing Spider-Man, jumped ship, he's the person that killed Gwen Stacy, jumped ship to be over at DC, who was an editor there working at the time, was also writing on some of their biggest properties.
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We then have Ross Andrew on Art, which is one of the only people that at the time who had drawn both Spider-Man and Superman.
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Yep.
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Lettered by Dick Giordano, uh, no, sorry, inked by Dick Giordano, lettered by Gaspar Saladino, colored by Jerry Serp.
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And uh yeah, it's just a it's just a team of all-stars, you know.
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Uh, you know, you have a sick thing at the start of this where both Stanley and Carmine kind of have a little write-up about how this came to be.
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And I think the biggest thing that I kind of learned coming into comics was like, oh, if you have a big property, it must be easy to get a big name to come like right on it for you.
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And oftentimes that doesn't seem to be the case.
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And almost every cool thing that happens in comics, whether it's like a new creative team or someone coming over to a book or leaving one company for another, is because of relationships.
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You know, you find that out really early.
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It's like they're friends with each other, they networked in some way, like they have some personal connection that brings so-and-so onto Xbook.
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And the reason the DC and Marvel crossover happened is because Stan Lee and Carmine used to be creative partners.
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They had they had Stan had written stuff that Carmine had drawn back in the day.
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So they found themselves as the head of these two companies and they're buds, so they just were like, Oh, we should have these characters cross over at this point, you know?
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Yeah, this is also, I believe, I'm forgiving what year this is published, but this is, I believe, relatively close to the first Superman movie.
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And like, we're talking about a time where Superman is the biggest, one of the biggest figures in American pop culture, and the Amazing Spider-Man is not too far behind in terms of like breaking out from just being in comics and becoming a like mass national figure.
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Yeah, you know, and like seeing these two characters together, again, like I know it sounds silly, but like they're both red and blue, they both work for news organizations.
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Like, you just look at the them together and you're like, Yeah, man, I want to read that.
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Like on a chemical, yeah, like animal level, you're like, I want that.
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I want I want that.
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Now, at the time, had Spider-Man and his amazing friends come out yet?
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This is like 76.
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No, that that cartoon was in the 80s, yeah.
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So that's kind of interesting then because we're at a point where Superman had been around for like 30 plus years at this point.
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And Spidey was about what it had been 10 years old?
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Like he's about his 10-year anniversary.
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If that's 76, Spider-Man debutes in 62, so we're talking about 14 years, yeah.
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Half half the length.
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Half the length, yeah.
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And and you feel that when you're reading the comic a bit, like it's very clear that Superman is the elder statesman and Spider-Man's the new kill on the block.
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But I think that's just such a cool thing that Marvel did in just about 15 years was just like their stuff was big enough that they were crossing over with you know with the face of superhero comics.
00:13:02.799 --> 00:13:09.200
You know, Spider-Man had already in 76 reached that pedigree and was able to like go toe-to-toe with Superman, which is super cool.
00:13:09.279 --> 00:13:19.840
So getting into kind of the meat of this book, so obviously, you know, part of the reason I pick this is just because it is kind of the first major intercompany crossover, right?
00:13:19.919 --> 00:13:22.480
It is DC and Marvel collaborating for the first time.
00:13:22.639 --> 00:13:29.200
We just hit the 50th anniversary of this book, and I think that's kind of what makes it such a big deal, like such a momentous occasion.
00:13:29.279 --> 00:13:37.279
As we talked about, like a crossover is only as big and as important as the companies make it feel, and they made it feel like a big deal, you know.
00:13:37.360 --> 00:13:39.200
They released this massive oversized book.
00:13:39.279 --> 00:13:42.320
It's basically a graphic novel that released in one large issue.
00:13:42.639 --> 00:13:48.559
The art is like incredibly cinematic, it really feels like you're looking at a blockbuster as you're going through this.
00:13:48.720 --> 00:13:56.000
I mean, there's so many of these just beautiful splash pages that really make you feel like you're on the street watching Superman uh work.
00:13:56.159 --> 00:14:00.240
And then I'd say an interesting thing about this crossover, and something that that book does as well.
00:14:00.480 --> 00:14:08.240
I think a lot of modern crossovers use like some sort of portal technology or interdimensional travel to bring the characters together.
00:14:08.320 --> 00:14:08.480
Yeah.
00:14:08.720 --> 00:14:14.639
Where I really love the trope of just like, oh hey, Superman, we exist in the same world.
00:14:14.799 --> 00:14:15.840
Welcome to New York, buddy.
00:14:16.080 --> 00:14:16.720
Just leave it be.
00:14:16.799 --> 00:14:19.919
They just leave it be, just have it be that Superman Z doesn't live in New York.
00:14:20.000 --> 00:14:21.600
That's why they haven't ran into each other, you know?
00:14:21.759 --> 00:14:23.519
Why won't they run into each other again?
00:14:23.679 --> 00:14:24.320
Who cares?
00:14:24.480 --> 00:14:29.840
Yeah, you know, but for this comic, they exist in the same earth, and I think that's like a great way to do it.
00:14:29.919 --> 00:14:34.879
When Lex Luthor and Doc Ock run into each other later on, they just know of each other.
00:14:35.039 --> 00:14:37.919
Doc Ock knows who Lex is, Lex knows who Doc is.
00:14:38.000 --> 00:14:38.960
It just makes sense.
00:14:39.120 --> 00:14:45.360
It makes it you don't have to spend all your time explaining what's happening and being like, I'm from a different world.
00:14:45.519 --> 00:14:47.039
This is crazy on your world.
00:14:47.200 --> 00:14:52.799
You can just have them meet as human beings, which is just way better for storytelling.
00:14:53.039 --> 00:15:02.639
So the one thing about this comic that I think uh maybe points off for a bit is it takes about half the book before Spider-Man and Superman actually interact.
00:15:02.960 --> 00:15:04.960
There's a lot of time before that.
00:15:05.120 --> 00:15:23.679
So we get like a pretty long chapter of Superman just kind of being Superman, and at the end of it, he finds out at this like news conference, it's gonna happen, and then Spider-Man just being Spider-Man, and at the end of it he finds out at the news conference, it's gonna happen, and then we cut to the villains that meet each other first, and finally we get the intro of Spider-Man and Superman.
00:15:23.840 --> 00:15:25.519
And the book really relishes that too.
00:15:25.679 --> 00:15:29.360
Yes, it really loves the amount of time it's taking to get to the team.
00:15:30.000 --> 00:15:31.200
It almost feels like a test.
00:15:31.360 --> 00:15:43.360
Like, I mean, uh, you know, uh one thing that we know about from behind the scenes is like these guys were kind of testing each other about like how how they were treating each other's character, and we know that you know there did they did a couple of these crossovers at the time.
00:15:43.440 --> 00:15:48.399
They also did um Batman and the Incredible Hulk by Len Wien and Jose Luis Garcia Lopez.
00:15:48.720 --> 00:15:53.039
But the the the king of the crossover that didn't happen for decades was JLA Avengers.
00:15:53.120 --> 00:15:56.159
And you can read about that online or in any edition of the book.
00:15:56.320 --> 00:16:01.759
Those guys were going back and forth, going, no, you don't get this character, no, you don't get this character, they can't be doing this, they can't be doing that.
00:16:01.840 --> 00:16:07.759
So this first chapter is almost like the companies being like, Yes, that is Superman, yes, that is Spider-Man.
00:16:07.840 --> 00:16:08.960
Yeah, now you can continue.
00:16:09.120 --> 00:16:09.360
Yeah, yeah.
00:16:09.519 --> 00:16:13.919
You know, it's almost like you have to like pass this like character test before you can let them meet each other.
00:16:14.159 --> 00:16:14.799
Sure, sure.
00:16:14.960 --> 00:16:22.480
And yeah, it is, I mean, it is a fun thing, kind of building suspense, tension, I don't know, it's just ramping up to like, come on, when are they gonna meet?
00:16:22.559 --> 00:16:23.279
When are they gonna meet?
00:16:23.519 --> 00:16:24.799
You know, slowly building to it.
00:16:24.960 --> 00:16:39.279
I think a really fun thing in here is sometimes with characters or properties, like you know, you can imagine a world where Marvel didn't want Spider-Man to look weak, where instead they understand that hey, Superman's power set is just he's way stronger than Spider-Man.
00:16:39.519 --> 00:16:45.919
So like when Spider-Man finally does like when Superman gets like full strength back and Spidey hits him, it like hurts his hand, right?
00:16:46.159 --> 00:16:47.440
One of the greatest beats of the issue.
00:16:47.600 --> 00:16:48.799
Yeah, which is just fantastic.
00:16:49.039 --> 00:16:54.080
It's fun when these craft servers do that when they just kind of recognize like no Spider-Man would lose.
00:16:54.240 --> 00:16:59.360
Yeah, like even in within the company, like Superman would beat the snot out of Batman.
00:16:59.600 --> 00:17:01.039
Like, so what else can we do?
00:17:02.000 --> 00:17:03.679
That is such a Spider-Man beat, right?
00:17:03.759 --> 00:17:08.079
Where it's like, oh, I'm not like Spider-Man's not always the strongest character in a comic.
00:17:08.480 --> 00:17:11.759
Even in his own comic, he might come up against the Rhino or the Juggernaut.
00:17:11.920 --> 00:17:19.119
Like you like that he is like the little the little engine that could so, of course, like yeah, him punching Superman in the face of Superman falling down is almost like completely out of character.
00:17:19.200 --> 00:17:20.640
People would be like, that's nonsense.
00:17:20.720 --> 00:17:22.319
Yeah, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:17:22.559 --> 00:17:25.039
It makes sense to keep him as the underdog, which is a lot of fun.
00:17:25.279 --> 00:17:27.680
Well, I like that he's like he's cocky in it too.
00:17:27.839 --> 00:17:29.680
He really loves beating up Superman.
00:17:29.759 --> 00:17:30.000
Yeah.
00:17:30.240 --> 00:17:32.079
He's really feeling that when it does happen.
00:17:32.319 --> 00:17:35.359
He's like, I've had a terrible day, people are bossing me around.
00:17:35.519 --> 00:17:38.400
I love that I can just whoop this guy around for a little.
00:17:38.640 --> 00:17:38.799
Yeah.
00:17:39.279 --> 00:17:46.559
Another really fun thing about this crossover is, you know, Superman and Spider-Man, as you were saying, they have a lot of things in their lives that go hand in hand.
00:17:46.720 --> 00:17:50.559
Like uh, the most obvious being that they are both newspaper men, you know.
00:17:50.960 --> 00:17:57.680
So they're at this newspaper conference, their secret identities are actually what brings them together uh for the first time in this issue.
00:17:57.839 --> 00:18:05.759
And we get to see uh Jay Jonah Jameson interact with a character that seems that's I that I guess is Superman's boss at the time that's familiar with.
00:18:05.920 --> 00:18:07.519
I haven't read a lot of that era comics.
00:18:08.079 --> 00:18:12.000
So this in this era, this is actually like one point I'll I'll be bringing up later.
00:18:12.079 --> 00:18:19.200
But yeah, his boss's time was Morgan Edge, who had I believe bought the Daily Planet, and Clarkhand at this time is also a news anchor.
00:18:19.359 --> 00:18:23.279
He's a news anchor, which you're like, I mean, that might be a little challenging given.
00:18:24.880 --> 00:18:25.359
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:18:25.519 --> 00:18:29.839
But also like at the time, like that was their version of like modernizing the character, you know.
00:18:30.079 --> 00:18:40.319
Where today it would be like, you know, the Daily Bugle's like a or I'm sorry, the Daily Planet is like a you know a cool like Huffington Post-esque website or whatever, where at the time it was like, just put them on TV.
00:18:40.480 --> 00:18:40.960
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:18:41.440 --> 00:18:47.920
Even then the newspaper thing felt antiquated, and it's like, well, that's crazy because I believe uh all the president's men comes out this year around this time.
00:18:48.000 --> 00:18:49.359
It's like, no man, newspapers are cool.
00:18:49.440 --> 00:18:51.200
Just let them work in a newspaper, you know.
00:18:51.519 --> 00:18:53.279
You know, it's just a super fun issue.
00:18:53.440 --> 00:18:58.400
It's it's it's mostly monumental just because of what it is, but it's a really fun time.
00:18:58.480 --> 00:19:04.640
It's fun to watch Mary Jane uh, you know, uh interact with Lois.
00:19:05.039 --> 00:19:08.480
And uh yeah, you know, I think it's just fun.
00:19:08.720 --> 00:19:09.440
Just a fun book.
00:19:10.079 --> 00:19:11.279
It's a beautifully colored book.
00:19:11.359 --> 00:19:13.119
Like I love the way it pops over there.
00:19:13.359 --> 00:19:19.359
I loved uh these these facsimiles that DC are doing uh whoever put that out.
00:19:19.519 --> 00:19:20.319
They're really fun.
00:19:20.400 --> 00:19:22.880
Like I loved just like it felt like a newspaper.
00:19:23.920 --> 00:19:25.519
Yeah, it felt like reading a newspaper.
00:19:25.599 --> 00:19:31.279
It felt like a little kid at the breakfast table, dad's got his newspaper, I've got my big copy of Superman Spider-Man.
00:19:31.440 --> 00:19:32.400
Like every time I opened it.
00:19:32.799 --> 00:19:35.519
Was this originally released as Treasury Edition sized?
00:19:35.680 --> 00:19:36.319
Is that how it came out?
00:19:36.960 --> 00:19:37.680
I think so, yeah.
00:19:37.920 --> 00:19:38.799
I mean, that's another thing.
00:19:38.880 --> 00:19:42.720
Like just understanding that it's that much of a moment that it comes out in that massive oversight.
00:19:43.039 --> 00:19:48.880
I mean, imagine being like a kid in the car driving a vacation, you got this thing with you, you're like, this is the greatest day on earth, you know.
00:19:49.119 --> 00:19:55.680
Um so one thing I will say is like we talked about the Superman Spider-Man scene where Spider-Man punches Superman he gets his hand hurt.
00:19:55.920 --> 00:20:02.720
I do wish there would be a scene between Lex Luther and Doc Ock where he was like, where Lex Luther was like, hey, um, can we talk about your haircut for a minute?
00:20:03.039 --> 00:20:04.480
Doc Ock was like, What do you mean?
00:20:04.640 --> 00:20:06.799
He's like, hey man, it's um it's rough.
00:20:06.880 --> 00:20:08.640
Like, I think you should consider shaving it off.
00:20:08.799 --> 00:20:11.359
Like, you know, I think I think you'd be happy as a bald man.
00:20:11.519 --> 00:20:15.279
I think that would have offended Doc Ock, and they could have gotten to their own kind of huge fight.
00:20:15.440 --> 00:20:16.960
And I think that's a missed opportunity.
00:20:17.279 --> 00:20:17.839
I like that.
00:20:18.000 --> 00:20:24.319
Speaking of that, this did remind me because they they do these uh little like uh uh hero identification pages throughout.
00:20:24.880 --> 00:20:48.799
And we get to one that's the villain identification page, and it reminded me of a piece of uh Lex Luthor's lore where Superman causes him to an experiment gone wrong in his youth while he's friends with he's at in Smallville, friends with with Clark Kent, and an experiment gone wrong causes him to lose his hair, and that is the turning point to villainy.
00:20:49.279 --> 00:20:49.680
Yeah.
00:20:50.000 --> 00:20:50.319
Yeah.
00:20:50.559 --> 00:20:55.200
And it's funny because in retrospect, I I haven't read the issue, but I've seen the cover.
00:20:55.519 --> 00:21:00.000
I think a lot of us have seen the cover of the issue where Lex loses his hair, and that is a key issue.
00:21:00.240 --> 00:21:00.720
I've read the issue.
00:21:00.960 --> 00:21:02.160
It's considered like a minor key.
00:21:02.319 --> 00:21:06.720
I haven't read it, but in retrospect, it just kind of feels like a funny thing that happened.
00:21:07.359 --> 00:21:08.559
It's funny they had to explain that.
00:21:08.799 --> 00:21:09.680
They could have just made him bald.
00:21:10.079 --> 00:21:16.960
Just so we don't have like an editor caption at the bottom, I should say, like, I I uh I worked on the new history of the DC universe, so a lot of stuff about Lex's hair.
00:21:17.039 --> 00:21:18.880
I know, I know every version of Lex losing his hair.
00:21:19.200 --> 00:21:20.640
It's so funny that it was important.
00:21:20.960 --> 00:21:21.920
What's the current answer?
00:21:22.079 --> 00:21:32.880
I think we I think it is a I think it is a version of it where like he does do an experiment that goes wrong that Clark could have prevented, um, but it's a little more model for the biggest.
00:21:34.400 --> 00:21:35.759
Why can't he just be bald?
00:21:36.480 --> 00:21:37.519
What's crazy about it?
00:21:37.680 --> 00:21:38.160
It's not the thing.
00:21:39.200 --> 00:21:43.279
If you lose your hair when the younger you lose your hair, I think the more spiteful you are about it, you know.
00:21:43.519 --> 00:21:49.039
Like if you lose, like I lost my hair when I was in my early, like my late teens, early twenties, and I was like, you know, a little spiteful.
00:21:49.119 --> 00:21:59.759
But if I hadn't lost my hair when I was like 15 or 60, I would have been like, the world is gonna wreck a couple of years in terms of meeting a super.
00:22:00.480 --> 00:22:01.759
Like a humbled person, you know?
00:22:02.480 --> 00:22:04.319
Like a if if this is a quick answer.
00:22:04.799 --> 00:22:06.000
How does Lex get hair?
00:22:06.079 --> 00:22:10.160
Because in the death of Superman, Lex has like beautiful blue hair on Australian accent.
00:22:10.960 --> 00:22:12.720
I think he's like pretending to be his own nephew to be.
00:22:14.480 --> 00:22:15.440
It's like a clone thing.
00:22:15.519 --> 00:22:20.160
Those comics are really rad, but explaining in retrospect is a little complicated, but yeah, he has like a crazy rub.
00:22:20.400 --> 00:22:25.759
I mean, that's a fun option for men who are embarrassed to get hair transposed as you come back.
00:22:26.079 --> 00:22:26.960
Well then don't colour yourself.
00:22:27.039 --> 00:22:29.759
You just come back and say, I'm uh no, I'm not Jake.
00:22:29.839 --> 00:22:30.880
I'm Jake's nephew.
00:22:30.960 --> 00:22:31.119
Yeah.
00:22:31.599 --> 00:22:32.240
Drake.
00:22:32.400 --> 00:22:32.720
Yeah.
00:22:33.279 --> 00:22:33.759
Hello.
00:22:34.160 --> 00:22:37.680
I am uh Rex Luthor.
00:22:38.480 --> 00:22:39.839
Hi, I'm Bronny Jr.
00:22:40.079 --> 00:22:41.839
No, the guy's on the team too.
00:22:42.160 --> 00:22:47.119
But I mean, my closing statement here is it's just that, you know, there's not a ton to say about the book.
00:22:47.279 --> 00:22:49.200
It's straightforward, but it's just it's great.
00:22:49.359 --> 00:22:50.319
It's exactly what it should be.
00:22:50.400 --> 00:22:54.480
You get to see the characters interact, you get to see all the fun matchups of their lives interact.
00:22:54.640 --> 00:22:56.960
They save the day, uh, they beat their villains.
00:22:57.119 --> 00:22:58.000
It's a fun time.
00:22:58.079 --> 00:22:59.839
It's nice that it's oversized.
00:23:00.079 --> 00:23:03.200
The Superman, Spider-Man, crossovers are back, baby.
00:23:03.440 --> 00:23:03.920
We love them.
00:23:04.079 --> 00:23:05.680
We love when characters cross over.
00:23:05.839 --> 00:23:10.559
We love when it's not really about growth or real storytelling, it's just mashing things together.
00:23:10.880 --> 00:23:15.039
I was wondering if we think that's good if they would do something with growth because they're such different characters.
00:23:15.200 --> 00:23:17.119
Superman is, and that's how they play them.
00:23:17.279 --> 00:23:22.000
Obviously, that's that's how they have to play them, but Superman is so infallible in his story.
00:23:22.160 --> 00:23:24.000
He never really gets caught in a trap.
00:23:24.240 --> 00:23:29.759
He never guesses anything wrong, he just kind of knows where to go to find Lex and knows how to beat him.
00:23:29.920 --> 00:23:30.240
Yeah.
00:23:30.480 --> 00:23:40.480
Uh and you would have thought that maybe he'd get humbled at some point and Spider-Man gets to step up, yeah, and Lex walks away having learned a lesson, but nothing of the sort ever happens.
00:23:41.680 --> 00:23:48.400
Like I I think my my biggest complaint about this book is once it gets going, it's very much a Superman versus Lex story.
00:23:48.720 --> 00:23:52.000
And Spider-Man is there for personality, and Dark Only.
00:23:53.680 --> 00:23:56.079
Yeah, so that so that's one thing.
00:23:56.160 --> 00:24:07.759
Um, and I'll also bring up a similar thing when we talk about Robocop Terminator, but like one thing you really want out of a crossover is like, hey, are all of the essential elements of the characters intact?
00:24:07.839 --> 00:24:14.480
And I will say for the Superman Spider-Man crossover, I'd say 85 to 90% of what you'd want is in there.
00:24:14.640 --> 00:24:19.119
You get uh you get Clark Kent, you get Lois Lane, Peter Parker, Mary Jane, you see J.
00:24:19.279 --> 00:24:33.839
Jonah Jameson, um, you get Lex Luthor, uh, but then the points where I'd be like, oh, that's a little weird is you brought up like Perry White's not their boss, it's Morgan Edge, and they're not newspaper people at the moment, they're newscasters, so like that's like a little bit of an oh right.
00:24:33.920 --> 00:24:35.119
That's a that's kind of a change.
00:24:35.279 --> 00:24:40.640
And then in terms of villains, like Lex Luthor is Superman's Grandest Villain, but we talk about who's Spider-Man's grandest villain.
00:24:40.720 --> 00:24:45.200
I think Doc Ock is second place to Green Goblin, but you can't use Green Goblin because Green Goblin's dead.
00:24:45.359 --> 00:24:45.519
Yeah.
00:24:45.839 --> 00:24:55.599
So you know, you get it's it's such a there's such minor things to kind of grade down, but you're like, ah man, is is the because Lex is such a tough character to compete with.
00:24:55.680 --> 00:24:59.759
It's like, oh, does Norman Osborne hold his own against Lex a little better than Doc Ock does?
00:24:59.920 --> 00:25:03.119
I'd be inclined to say yes, but like you can't retcon for a crossover.
00:25:03.519 --> 00:25:15.519
That's such an interesting way to that they were thinking about continuity at the time because they're like Spider-Man and Superman are in the same world even though they never have been and they ostensibly almost never will be again.
00:25:15.680 --> 00:25:15.920
Yes.
00:25:16.160 --> 00:25:19.440
But also this world needs to look as it does now.
00:25:19.680 --> 00:25:19.759
Yeah.
00:25:20.079 --> 00:25:20.480
Definitely.
00:25:20.640 --> 00:25:22.720
Yeah, you can't fudge too much stuff.
00:25:22.880 --> 00:25:22.960
Yeah.
00:25:23.359 --> 00:25:26.799
They could have just brought back Perry, they could have just said, here's the green goblin.
00:25:27.039 --> 00:25:27.279
Just done.
00:25:27.440 --> 00:25:37.359
I think people have kind of gotten used to that now, where if you pick up a crossover comic, you I think the assumption is that you're seeing an evergreen version of the characters, you know, like kind of a generalized status quo.
00:25:37.519 --> 00:25:46.960
Yeah, I mean that's the kind of beauty of like JLA Avengers is through kind of more of the kind of metafiction plot mach machinations that you're talking about, like they get you everything.
00:25:47.279 --> 00:25:52.240
You leave going like you saw every version of each team, every villain, every possible thing you could want.
00:25:52.319 --> 00:25:57.200
But again, they did a lot of uh crazy intense and really well done combo plotting stuff to make that happen.
00:25:57.440 --> 00:26:00.559
I did a reread of that, yeah, just in case we touched on it.
00:26:00.640 --> 00:26:02.160
And it was like a ton of fun.
00:26:02.319 --> 00:26:03.119
It felt rules.
00:26:03.359 --> 00:26:13.680
It felt the story lived up to I suppose the magnitude of the story lived up to the weight of what it represented in this crossover.
00:26:15.039 --> 00:26:18.319
It was crazy, it felt like a capital C crisis.
00:26:18.480 --> 00:26:18.720
Yes.
00:26:19.200 --> 00:26:23.440
To uh kind of tee up uh Robocop v Terminator a little bit.
00:26:23.599 --> 00:26:31.359
I think that this crossover at the end of the day, as cool as it is and as big of a deal as it was at the time, it does feel like action figures, right?
00:26:31.599 --> 00:26:33.039
Yeah, it's playing with action figures a bit.
00:26:33.119 --> 00:26:38.799
It's just kind of like let's see these big poster-esque moments of these characters interacting.
00:26:39.039 --> 00:26:57.359
Whereas I think Robocop v Terminator, what's really cool and special about that book is it takes elements from both of these franchises or movies or stories, and it crafts a it crafts a new version of that story that kind of says something interesting.
00:26:57.440 --> 00:26:58.880
Like they use it to like make art.
00:26:59.200 --> 00:27:04.480
Funny thing, this is technically an intercompany crossover episode, but these are like these are the same publisher.
00:27:04.559 --> 00:27:04.720
Yeah.
00:27:05.039 --> 00:27:09.599
This is a very much you know what we've gotten to do, what Jake and I have gotten to do with TMNT Godzilla.
00:27:09.759 --> 00:27:16.480
Um, we aren't really dealing with publishers' butting heads in the same way that you might have with DC and Marvel.
00:27:16.720 --> 00:27:23.920
Um, but it's yeah, like Jake said, it's a really fun story that kind of retells the mythology of both franchises.
00:27:24.319 --> 00:27:40.319
Um we open up in the far future, there's you know, Terminator stuff going on, it is a wasteland, uh, and they send a human back to the present because as we find out, Alex Murphy, um, what's his name, right?
00:27:40.480 --> 00:27:41.200
Alex Murphy, yeah.
00:27:41.440 --> 00:27:43.279
Alex Murphy, I don't know why I blanked on that.
00:27:43.839 --> 00:27:49.599
Um was responsible, it was kind of the impetus for Skynet gaining consciousness.
00:27:49.759 --> 00:27:57.759
At some point uh in our timeline, he connects to Skynet, Skynet, it becomes something else and you know takes over the world.
00:27:57.920 --> 00:28:04.559
Uh, and so they go back not to save John Connor, but to kill Robocop.
00:28:05.519 --> 00:28:08.799
Uh from there we meet Robocop doing RoboCop things.
00:28:09.119 --> 00:28:20.640
He stops the person who came back for him, but the Terminator has also sent back a couple Terminators or a Terminator who you know is blown up, they win.
00:28:20.880 --> 00:28:23.519
What's fun about this book is they go back and forth a lot.
00:28:23.599 --> 00:28:27.279
The Terminators get like multiple chances to send back bad guys.
00:28:27.519 --> 00:28:28.799
Like it just kind of keeps happening.
00:28:29.119 --> 00:28:32.400
Well, you talk about no budget, like it's like you send as many Terminators as you get.
00:28:32.720 --> 00:28:35.359
They just keep throwing Terminators into the past.
00:28:35.599 --> 00:28:41.920
Eventually, Robocop and this person who came back uh in time, uh, they become friends.
00:28:42.079 --> 00:28:51.759
Uh he's tempted by Skynet, refuses temptation the temptation, uh, is taken anyway against his will, plugged into Skynet.
00:28:52.079 --> 00:28:54.880
The future happens as you know as we see it.
00:28:55.119 --> 00:28:56.559
Terminators win.
00:28:56.720 --> 00:29:06.880
Um, but Robocop, you know, sliver of his human consciousness, of his Alex Murphy consciousness, uh, was saved in Skynet's programming, and for years and years it's floating around.
00:29:07.359 --> 00:29:12.960
Takes over a little, uh, creates a factory of Robocops and helps the humans win.
00:29:13.039 --> 00:29:14.480
Uh, then everyone's happy.
00:29:14.559 --> 00:29:15.359
The future's fixed.
00:29:15.599 --> 00:29:17.920
In a way that it never is in any Terminator film.
00:29:18.559 --> 00:29:20.880
Yeah, it's just like a beautiful utopia.
00:29:21.119 --> 00:29:21.359
Yeah.
00:29:21.599 --> 00:29:22.799
They just save the day.
00:29:23.039 --> 00:29:25.839
It was awesome, like Frank just ending the story.
00:29:25.920 --> 00:29:33.599
I'm pulling up uh pulling up this utopia for the viewers watching the video because it is so funny.
00:29:33.839 --> 00:29:40.960
Our main character wakes up in a beautiful field, uh wearing like future utopian garments.
00:29:41.039 --> 00:29:46.960
She looks like she's in like Atlantis before the city, so Robocop is one of my all-time favorite movies.
00:29:47.279 --> 00:29:47.680
Same here.
00:29:47.839 --> 00:29:55.920
Uh, when I first moved to LA, the first time I ever went to Amoeba Records, I bought um the Criterion edition of RoboCop because I'm such a huge fan.
00:29:56.079 --> 00:29:59.200
So getting to reread this crossover was a delight.
00:29:59.359 --> 00:30:10.000
And like reading it today with all my comic book history knowledge, like Frank Miller and Walt Simonson, two of the best cartoonists of their generations, teaming up to do this comic, it's unreal, dude.
00:30:10.319 --> 00:30:11.039
It's unreal.
00:30:11.359 --> 00:30:16.160
And the way that Simonson approaches the page is so much fun, and it's it's such a contrast.
00:30:17.119 --> 00:30:21.119
So bombastic, like IMAX images in Superman Spider-Man.
00:30:21.279 --> 00:30:21.359
Yeah.
00:30:21.519 --> 00:30:23.839
Whereas he was cramming the page with action.
00:30:24.240 --> 00:30:30.880
He um he there's some there's some pages he really nails quite, quite tremendously that are like kind of burned into my head now.
00:30:31.039 --> 00:30:39.039
And um something about this book that I think is is also fun is like RoboCop is a character who is created because of comic books.
00:30:39.200 --> 00:30:44.240
Like the screenwriter of the original Robocop film, whose name escapes me at the moment, I believe his name is Ed Newmeyer.
00:30:44.720 --> 00:30:56.640
He was inspired by like what he called the anxiety-ridden superheroes of the 80s, like Alan Moore Swamp thing, Frank Miller's Daredevil, some uh some of the like darker, more alcoholic-driven Iron Man stories.
00:30:56.720 --> 00:31:03.440
He was like, Oh, like if we're gonna make like a modern-day superhero, he has to be like kind of anxious and sad, and then he creates Robocop.
00:31:03.519 --> 00:31:14.079
And it's like, you know, because we get direct superhero movies today, like sometimes I am like, wow, what if people got to make movies that were inspired by comics instead of directly adapting them?
00:31:14.160 --> 00:31:15.599
Like, that's how we got RoboCop.
00:31:15.680 --> 00:31:19.519
And similarly, like, you know, famously Jim Cameron loved Spider-Man.
00:31:19.680 --> 00:31:24.480
He almost made Spider-Man with Leonardo DiCaprio for for I believe Canon films, but it didn't happen.
00:31:24.559 --> 00:31:27.599
But he creates Terminator, one of the all-time great pop culture characters.
00:31:27.759 --> 00:31:33.279
I have to imagine some like cool sci-fi comics of his youth found his way into uh Terminator.
00:31:33.359 --> 00:31:40.640
So while these are both movie icons, they certainly have the feeling of comic book characters in certain ways, and it's not crazy to see them in this format.
00:31:40.880 --> 00:31:42.799
And the world feels so comic booky to you.
00:31:42.880 --> 00:31:48.480
I mean both of them really, but Robocop more so because it's it's so much more similar to ours.
00:31:48.960 --> 00:31:50.880
Uh but the people are crazy.
00:31:51.200 --> 00:31:55.279
In the first scene, uh, when our hero do you remember her name?
00:31:55.680 --> 00:31:56.720
I'm totally blanking eye.
00:31:57.119 --> 00:31:57.279
Thank you.
00:31:57.440 --> 00:32:08.640
When Flo comes back to the present, she shows up in the middle of a busy intersection and a cab driver gets mad at her and pulls out a gun, and then everyone look walking around is like, oh, there's a fight going on, and they all pull out guns.
00:32:09.119 --> 00:32:11.839
That's the most Robocop bit in the whole thing.
00:32:12.160 --> 00:32:17.200
In terms of like satire and funny, and I will say, like, I wish this book had more of those moments, more of that humor.
00:32:17.440 --> 00:32:17.759
Yeah, yeah.
00:32:18.000 --> 00:32:20.079
That was really that that was an awesome part of it.
00:32:20.240 --> 00:32:28.799
I think what's what's so great about that crossover is it like really attacks like the conflicting essences of the books, right?
00:32:28.880 --> 00:32:37.119
It is a one is a world where robots and humans are fighting each other, and the other is a protagonist that is half human, half robot.
00:32:37.519 --> 00:32:39.519
It is a brilliant thing to mix together.
00:32:39.759 --> 00:32:42.319
It's not just for the point of like, look at these characters meeting.
00:32:42.400 --> 00:32:50.319
It is an interesting story to watch and read through as this man reckons with the robotic and the human side of him, right?
00:32:50.480 --> 00:33:09.359
And it it feels so like prescient with just the ideas of like how much we're giving way to robots each and every day, whether it's the phones in our pocket or AI, and looking at this future of what that creates, this Terminator apocalypse, and him being like, Well, I need to kill myself to stop this.
00:33:09.680 --> 00:33:13.039
Uh anything, I this cannot go on this way.
00:33:13.119 --> 00:33:14.160
This cannot continue that way.
00:33:14.319 --> 00:33:19.200
I think it's a fun thing too, because it kind of feels similar now that we're in this robot apocalypse.
00:33:19.279 --> 00:33:26.799
I feel like at least like I'm re-examining any sort of Android character in any property that's a fiction.
00:33:26.880 --> 00:33:29.039
It's like, yeah, we should kill that guy again.
00:33:29.839 --> 00:33:31.119
C3PO should be murdered.
00:33:31.519 --> 00:33:39.119
To continue the aside, though, it is it's funny to me that we continue to make these AI stories and the AI is the good guy.
00:33:39.440 --> 00:33:41.359
I think that's that's really fascinating.
00:33:41.519 --> 00:33:45.440
It's like at what point, if ever, will that take a turn?
00:33:45.599 --> 00:33:50.960
As it's just AI in the court of public opinion is such a controversial uh topic.
00:33:51.279 --> 00:33:51.680
Yeah.
00:33:54.400 --> 00:34:00.880
Because it's technically a media tie-in, one thing though that does feel kind of apparent about the comic is like the things they could not include.
00:34:00.960 --> 00:34:06.400
Like it is it is called Terminator, but like none of the Terminators look like our former governor, you know.
00:34:06.799 --> 00:34:16.400
Uh also, like, in terms of RoboCop characters, like Robocop, like there's so many great side characters and supporting characters, none of those people are present in the comic, you know.
00:34:16.559 --> 00:34:21.199
Where like unlike Superman Spider-Man, where it's like, we don't have to pay actors' likenesses, we can just bring in whoever we want.
00:34:21.280 --> 00:34:27.280
Like, Robocop is clear, like you can use uh this person's likeness and nobody else's likeness.
00:34:27.360 --> 00:34:27.679
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:34:27.920 --> 00:34:36.639
So while the scope is like intense and you get a ton of terminated robots, like you get more than you would in the movie, you're you're you're missing a couple elements from the movies that I really like.
00:34:36.719 --> 00:34:43.119
Dig and similarly, like, you know, there's there's no Sarah Connor, no John Connor in this in this book, correct?
00:34:43.280 --> 00:34:43.679
I'm not sure.
00:34:43.840 --> 00:34:44.800
Yeah, that's correct.
00:34:45.039 --> 00:34:47.280
If I may, I think that's the strength of the project.
00:34:47.440 --> 00:34:54.079
I think if Frank had to find a way to cram in Sarah and John, yeah, uh, and Kyle even somehow.
00:34:54.239 --> 00:35:01.679
I think what what works about this is it is the Robocop franchise interacting with the concept of the Terminator franchise.
00:35:02.079 --> 00:35:07.280
Like they get to reduce the Terminator down to a premise, and for the most part, Robocop as well.
00:35:07.360 --> 00:35:18.800
They they show his wife being sad that he's dead, and they show you know him going to sleep at the at the office and it being maintained, but for the most part, you're right, right.
00:35:19.039 --> 00:35:26.719
For the most part, it's it's just Robocop on the job, and we never really see even his uh his partner from the movie.
00:35:26.880 --> 00:35:27.039
Yeah.
00:35:27.360 --> 00:35:36.159
Yeah, I think that I think you're kind of I I think I fall somewhere in the middle of you guys here, where like I think that is why this comic does work so well.
00:35:36.400 --> 00:35:46.400
Uh I uh imagining a world where we have to make more room for like a John Connor type feels a little bit tough, but it also is why this just feels like a Robocop comic, right?
00:35:46.559 --> 00:35:48.159
Like it's very much a RoboCop comic.
00:35:49.119 --> 00:35:57.440
So if you brought in John Connor, if you brought in Arnold, you know, then it would actually feel like these two movies meeting each other.
00:35:57.679 --> 00:35:58.800
It does not feel that way.
00:35:59.119 --> 00:36:01.039
There is no real Terminator without Arnold.
00:36:01.280 --> 00:36:01.840
It just doesn't.
00:36:02.400 --> 00:36:08.079
It's fun because um, you know, it is I I guess a recap for anyone who doesn't know Robocop.
00:36:08.480 --> 00:36:14.719
Um RoboCop's a movie, Alex Murphy is a cop who's murdered very grotesquely at the beginning.
00:36:14.800 --> 00:36:15.840
It's hilarious, it's awesome.
00:36:16.000 --> 00:36:17.840
You gotta check it out in the best possible way.
00:36:17.920 --> 00:36:18.239
It's sick.
00:36:18.400 --> 00:36:20.079
Yeah, Rena, you have to check it out.
00:36:20.800 --> 00:36:21.039
Yeah.
00:36:21.679 --> 00:36:24.000
And they take him and they turn him into a robot.
00:36:24.079 --> 00:36:27.280
They're like, here's this dead cop, maybe we can make him a robot cop.
00:36:27.440 --> 00:36:28.719
And they do it, and it works out really well.
00:36:28.800 --> 00:36:29.760
And they're really good at his job.
00:36:30.000 --> 00:36:35.360
And to James' point, they try to suppress his memory so he only remembers being Robocop, but like his humanity wins through.
00:36:35.519 --> 00:36:46.800
And in the second issue of this crossover, um, Frank and Walt visualize it in a really beautiful way, where like he's he goes into his mind and like you see him as Alex Murphy, like flying through this techno landscape.
00:36:46.880 --> 00:36:51.760
And again, like that's something that works really wonderful in comics that like and it's very beautiful and very poetic.
00:36:52.079 --> 00:36:56.880
Like maybe at the time in the late 80s, early 90s would not have looked as good in the movie, you would have been like, this was weird.
00:36:56.960 --> 00:36:58.480
It was a weird thing I'm watching right now.
00:36:58.559 --> 00:37:08.320
But like in comics, it works brilliantly again because they're taking inspiration from those 80s anxiety-ridden comics with those kind of dreamscapes that like Robocop owes so much of his origin to.
00:37:08.719 --> 00:37:15.199
Um I pitched I pitched a scene uh for Jake, so I'm gonna pitch a scene for this.
00:37:15.360 --> 00:37:24.480
One thing I would have really loved, I know it could have happened, but one of the best things about the first Robocop is the villain, uh, played by Kurtwood Smith, the dad from that 70s show.
00:37:24.559 --> 00:37:28.480
He plays Clarence Bodaker, one of the greatest movie villains of all time.
00:37:28.719 --> 00:37:36.079
And like, I would have loved if they could have brought him back, and at first you're like, oh man, he's back from the dead, and bear like, no, he's a Terminator.
00:37:36.320 --> 00:37:40.480
And you see his skin peeling off, and you just let him call all his crazy lines from the first movie.
00:37:40.719 --> 00:37:42.320
Like, I actually I probably shouldn't have said that.
00:37:43.679 --> 00:37:49.280
I know it's it's completely out of vogue, which is okay, because I respect people, um, that would have been cool, you know.
00:37:49.360 --> 00:38:12.800
Again, the all these things in retrospect, but like I, as a huge Robocop fan, like I had such a great time reading this crossover, and you had to talk about the art, like man, Walt Simonson, one of the greatest cartoonists alive, one of the greatest cartoonists of that era, and just like I think about all the beautiful organic things he drew in like Thor and how beautiful that stuff is, and to draw like mechanical stuff just as beautifully and it doesn't feel lifeless, is amazing.
00:38:12.880 --> 00:38:22.719
Like, one thing I often have problems with in like you know, comics in a lot of machines or certain Iron Man comics, is like it becomes literally like two action figures just running against each other and it has no life.
00:38:22.880 --> 00:38:38.800
There's so much like life and energy and dynamism between the Robocop and Terminator fights that I think today it would just look like a bunch of like lens flare and like metal like hitting each other, where like in this it looks spectacular, and the colors do shift halfway through the miniseries.
00:38:38.880 --> 00:38:41.760
I do prefer the colors in the first two issues, the second two issues.
00:38:41.920 --> 00:38:48.719
No offense to the colors of issues three and four, but those first two issues in particular, I think some of the most beautiful work Walt's ever done.
00:38:49.199 --> 00:39:03.119
Going back to to the posing, I think there's some of these splashes, and this is a bad example because it's not a splash, but this panel here where Robocomp is like flying, yeah, and Walt is allowing him more like mobility than he would have had in the film.
00:39:04.079 --> 00:39:10.320
Looking at the way his yeah, the way his knee bends, like that is that's the thing that makes it work.
00:39:10.400 --> 00:39:11.679
Like that's the bit almost.
00:39:11.920 --> 00:39:19.360
Something we we rarely talk about in the show, also, is I will say, uh, your comic and your comic, each lettered by two of the greatest letters in the history of comics.
00:39:19.440 --> 00:39:32.239
Gaspar Saladino basically sent the template for modern lettering, and then John Workman, uh, who I believe letters everything Walt does, just like you know, most letterers are kind of they would say they're very inspired by both of those guys.
00:39:32.400 --> 00:39:37.119
So we uh we often talk about art and colors and writing on the show, but I won't say we see lettering too.
00:39:37.280 --> 00:39:38.639
We see you guys and we respect you.
00:39:38.800 --> 00:39:43.760
And though those two guys rule in both these comics look driven from from top to bottom, production-wise.
00:39:44.480 --> 00:39:44.800
Yeah.
00:39:47.119 --> 00:39:53.519
So do you guys have any closing arguments before I start like loudly thinking about which one I want to pick?
00:39:53.840 --> 00:40:03.679
Well, this being uh an episode about intercompany crossovers, I did reach out to another company just to in the spirit of the thing.
00:40:04.639 --> 00:40:06.000
So I have something I'd like to read.
00:40:06.639 --> 00:40:07.760
Uh this is from Jamie S.
00:40:07.920 --> 00:40:09.760
Rich, publisher at Ignition Press.
00:40:10.000 --> 00:40:10.159
Editor.
00:40:10.880 --> 00:40:11.440
Editor in Chief.
00:40:11.760 --> 00:40:11.920
Yeah.
00:40:12.159 --> 00:40:14.960
I uh former Batman editor at DC Comics.
00:40:15.039 --> 00:40:16.719
Yeah, former my boss at IDW.
00:40:17.280 --> 00:40:19.920
He's worked at Dark Horse, he helped found Oni Press.
00:40:20.239 --> 00:40:23.519
Jamie is like the the crossover man of comics.
00:40:23.679 --> 00:40:23.920
Wow.
00:40:24.000 --> 00:40:24.159
Yeah.
00:40:24.480 --> 00:40:25.199
The crossover man.
00:40:25.440 --> 00:40:28.400
And I just gave him a promotion at Ignition just.
00:40:28.800 --> 00:40:30.400
Yes, he also let it know.
00:40:30.639 --> 00:40:35.679
A modern crossover people love the Batman Elmer Fudd that DC did a couple years ago by Lee.
00:40:36.079 --> 00:40:36.800
Did you say he let it?
00:40:37.039 --> 00:40:38.079
He edited it at Excuse me.
00:40:38.719 --> 00:40:39.519
Excuse me, Jake.
00:40:40.000 --> 00:40:40.559
I'm very sorry.
00:40:41.039 --> 00:40:41.760
It's late in the day.
00:40:41.920 --> 00:40:43.280
That's what that is one I considered.
00:40:43.360 --> 00:40:49.679
I I've I've said this to you many times, Dave, but uh Lee Weeks is my favorite Batman artist of the 21st century.
00:40:50.159 --> 00:40:50.719
I think he's brilliant.
00:40:50.880 --> 00:40:51.679
I think that issue is brilliant.
00:40:52.079 --> 00:40:53.360
Well, what did Jamie give us?
00:40:53.679 --> 00:40:56.000
So, Jamie, this is this is in Jamie's words.
00:40:56.079 --> 00:41:03.840
For me, the best crossover is to take not just a genuine look at how the two characters who were meeting might interact, but find some kind of thematic common ground.
00:41:04.000 --> 00:41:11.599
The original Batman Grendel recognized the two sides of the same archetype of the overly accomplished and driven protagonist and pitted them against each other.
00:41:11.840 --> 00:41:16.000
Hunter Rose versus Batman was not the good evil paradigm of Joker and Batman.
00:41:16.159 --> 00:41:25.119
It's really the same person making the opposite choice, to use their skills and resources for selfish Hunter Rose, or selfless Batman reasons.
00:41:25.360 --> 00:41:35.280
Add on top of that, Matt Wagner bringing an uncompromising approach with his intricate storytelling, and you get a crossover with an artistic point of view rather than just something done for commercial gain.
00:41:35.519 --> 00:41:44.800
Arguably he blew that up all that up with a sequel years later, flipping it into a blockbuster, this time Grendel Prime, who is more of a blunt instrument than a precise tool.
00:41:45.119 --> 00:41:52.639
If the first one was Brains, Batman Grendel 2 was Braun, and the storytelling was more open and widescreen as a result, the colors too.
00:41:52.800 --> 00:41:58.320
Uh you went from the more muted and meticulous Joe Matt coloring to the almost garish Gregory Wright coloring.
00:41:58.480 --> 00:42:09.199
Plus, Matt actually managed to make that crossover canon with the Grendel Mythos rather than an aside rather than a side hustle by building to the story in his own comics for the year prior.
00:42:09.440 --> 00:42:13.280
Full disclosure, I was an assistant editor on the lead in stories and the sequel itself.
00:42:13.599 --> 00:42:16.000
My love of the original dates back to my fan days.
00:42:16.159 --> 00:42:20.719
The actual crossover I worked on that I'd call my favorite is Madman Superman Hullabaloo.
00:42:20.960 --> 00:42:21.519
Oh, incredible.
00:42:21.840 --> 00:42:29.599
Which is the last and I don't think I would have chosen it, but it is one that I I regretfully forgot to review in preparing for this episode.
00:42:30.239 --> 00:42:32.480
But I I love that book so much.
00:42:32.639 --> 00:42:37.679
Much like Matt Wagner, Mike Alred brought his whole personality to the table and made a story that only he could make.
00:42:37.840 --> 00:42:44.239
And likewise, he sneakily made sure that when Madman came back to his own reality, he took a little piece of Superman with him.
00:42:44.880 --> 00:42:52.960
For the more traditional superhero crossovers, though, the uncanny X-Men and the New Teen Titans from 1982 is easily the goat in all caps.
00:42:53.119 --> 00:42:56.719
If for nothing else, then the Walt Simonson and Terry Austin art.
00:42:56.960 --> 00:43:01.199
That's so that's the issue I probably would have picked if I was one of the competitors in this episode.
00:43:01.360 --> 00:43:04.880
You have two of the greatest team books of all time going on at the same time.
00:43:04.960 --> 00:43:07.280
They're both books about young adult characters.
00:43:07.599 --> 00:43:09.519
Like it was perfect.
00:43:09.679 --> 00:43:13.840
The timing was perfect, the books were perfect, the characters aligned amazingly.
00:43:14.000 --> 00:43:16.000
Walt also drew the heck out of that one.
00:43:16.159 --> 00:43:17.920
Chris Claremont is writing it.
00:43:18.079 --> 00:43:22.639
I I do wish there had been a uh version that Marv Wolfman wrote, and maybe maybe George would have drawn it.
00:43:22.719 --> 00:43:27.199
So we got a uh we got two of them instead of one, but like that crossover is really incredible.
00:43:27.280 --> 00:43:32.159
And uh in two minutes, Jamie Rich beat us in what we've been trying to do here for almost the last hour.
00:43:32.480 --> 00:43:34.159
I know he put it very succinctly.
00:43:34.239 --> 00:43:47.599
I really like um his comments about because that is a fun thing about madman is forever after he's he's re referencing like yeah, oh yeah, this thing that I can do now after I interacted with that alien that we hung out with that one time.
00:43:48.000 --> 00:43:52.719
There's also such a sweetness between Madman and Superman, and to his great points about Batman and Grendel as well.
00:43:52.800 --> 00:43:55.360
They're such uh uh opposite sides of the same coin.
00:43:55.440 --> 00:43:57.199
And he gave us the okay to read that on the air.
00:43:57.360 --> 00:43:57.599
Mm-hmm.
00:43:57.760 --> 00:43:59.119
Okay, what a sweet man.
00:43:59.280 --> 00:44:02.480
Um Well that definitely helps me inform what I was what I was gonna say.
00:44:02.559 --> 00:44:06.159
But yeah, guys, closing uh closing thoughts, closing arguments.
00:44:06.400 --> 00:44:13.519
Yeah, I think my closing argument is that I, as someone who's not a huge fan of crossovers, I haven't read a ton of them.
00:44:13.679 --> 00:44:23.599
Um I picked this mostly because of its standing in comics history, and I believe Robocop versus Terminator would be the better crossover story is my closing argument.
00:44:23.840 --> 00:44:24.079
Really?
00:44:24.400 --> 00:44:24.639
Yeah.
00:44:24.800 --> 00:44:25.039
Okay.
00:44:25.360 --> 00:44:26.559
Just rolling over heck.
00:44:26.800 --> 00:44:28.320
I wouldn't call it rolling over.
00:44:30.880 --> 00:44:34.719
Just telling me the water's fine, that I can hop in as well.
00:44:35.840 --> 00:44:58.000
Um RoboCop versus Terminator, I think it does something that, you know, we've said this already, but it it does something that the best crossovers do, which is to kind of negotiate these two mythos, see the ways in which they fit together best, and it tells a whole new story with um, gives us a beginning, middle, end that I think is a lot of fun.
00:44:58.079 --> 00:45:02.400
It's entirely removed from both franchises, largely the Terminator one.
00:45:02.960 --> 00:45:07.679
Um I as much as I love Superman vs.
00:45:07.840 --> 00:45:15.119
Spider-Man, I mean when it when we got this facsimile in Jake and I were just gushing over the art, uh, but I think it kind of stops there.
00:45:15.199 --> 00:45:24.320
I think and I think you know, what one thing I'll say in Jamie's write-up, he put it so well that uh Batman Grendel was not a commercial effort, and that was the strength of it.
00:45:24.639 --> 00:45:28.800
I think the strength of Superman uh Spider-Man is that it is a commercial effort.
00:45:29.199 --> 00:45:36.079
They they've nailed so effectively the things that make these characters both so successful.
00:45:36.320 --> 00:45:41.519
Um, Jake, as you mentioned, like the cover alone, both characters are doing what they do.
00:45:41.679 --> 00:45:44.880
That is such a Superman pose, that is such a Spider-Man pose.
00:45:45.039 --> 00:45:46.800
Uh, and that was what made it work.
00:45:46.880 --> 00:45:48.880
It was so authentic because of that.
00:45:49.039 --> 00:45:54.079
Because it you know, essentially they're keeping these characters on brand.
00:45:55.119 --> 00:46:03.039
Um but ultimately Robocop versus Terminator, I think, is a more modern effort that has aged much better.
00:46:03.519 --> 00:46:08.079
Um it has Frank Miller at the height of his powers, just kind of doing what Frank Miller does.
00:46:08.239 --> 00:46:08.719
Yeah.
00:46:08.880 --> 00:46:14.480
Um and Walt Simonson at the height of his powers, so I don't think he's ever really slowed down.
00:46:14.639 --> 00:46:14.800
Yeah.
00:46:14.960 --> 00:46:20.079
Um if if you haven't read some of his most recent stuff, Ragnarok, I highly uh encourage you to do so.
00:46:20.159 --> 00:46:21.199
It's brilliant.
00:46:21.519 --> 00:46:31.440
Um but yeah, this is just two creators at the best of their abilities, uh, telling a story in which Robocop is tempted by his potential future.
00:46:31.519 --> 00:46:33.440
And yeah, it's it's cool.
00:46:33.599 --> 00:46:34.159
It's great.
00:46:34.480 --> 00:46:35.039
This is tough.
00:46:35.199 --> 00:46:37.519
It's especially tough because Jake waved the white flag.
00:46:38.239 --> 00:46:39.119
But that doesn't mean you have to.
00:46:39.360 --> 00:46:39.920
That doesn't mean you have to.
00:46:40.239 --> 00:46:41.519
That doesn't mean your decision is made.
00:46:41.679 --> 00:46:42.880
Is he gonna make your decision for you?
00:46:43.119 --> 00:46:43.360
Wow.
00:46:43.440 --> 00:46:44.400
I'm making your decision for you.
00:46:44.480 --> 00:46:45.039
No, no, no, no.
00:46:45.280 --> 00:46:46.639
He already picks what you eat for breakfast.
00:46:46.800 --> 00:46:48.400
So here's here's what I'll say.
00:46:48.559 --> 00:46:51.920
And I think that you actually said it very astutely.
00:46:52.159 --> 00:47:01.199
I I don't know that you meant it as like kind of a haymaker, but it really did change things for me, which is like Robocop Terminator does feel more like a Robocop comic than a Terminator comic.
00:47:01.440 --> 00:47:01.599
Wow.
00:47:01.920 --> 00:47:11.119
Where Superman Spider-Man will not as I think in terms of what is the better comic book, yes, it's Robocop versus Terminator.
00:47:11.280 --> 00:47:14.239
However, that's not the premise of the episode.
00:47:14.800 --> 00:47:17.599
The premise of the episode is what is the better inner company crossover?
00:47:17.920 --> 00:47:28.000
And because of how much these guys had to like work to like give it 50-50, make sure each character was represented well, and kind of set the tone for every crossover that came after it.
00:47:28.960 --> 00:47:33.119
I have to give the belt to Superman the Amazing Spider-Man.
00:47:33.360 --> 00:47:33.679
Wow.
00:47:33.840 --> 00:47:39.760
Dave, I think that, you know, I think towards the end of this, I lost a lot of steam, and I think hearing those words.
00:47:40.239 --> 00:47:44.320
I think I think like I'm just constantly wrestling with what a crossover is and what the point of it is.
00:47:44.480 --> 00:47:54.559
And like as someone who's worked on some crossovers that I really like, I think that Faro Pay and Tim Seeley did an excellent job with Godzilla versus TMNT, which is a crossover comic that Nick and I worked on together.
00:47:54.719 --> 00:47:56.000
It's a fantastic book.
00:47:56.079 --> 00:47:59.760
It does the thing where it merges their mythos together in a fun way.
00:48:00.000 --> 00:48:10.079
Um, it's also we get these chances to like turn the turtles into kaiju, and we play with these little similarities of them all being mutants, and and we have all this fun with it.
00:48:10.239 --> 00:48:23.679
But like at the end of the day, I think that you know, growing up in like the post-Watchman world, the post-vertigo world, you can have this desire of comics as literature, comics tell a story, comics have these like deeper meanings to them.
00:48:23.760 --> 00:48:38.159
And I think sometimes crossovers can have this bad rap of like, oh, well, it's just silly, but also that's an awesome thing for comics to be comics just being silly and just being fun and and giving you something that other mediums don't give you.
00:48:38.239 --> 00:48:39.519
Yeah, I think it's important.
00:48:39.760 --> 00:48:42.639
So I think this crossover gave me a change of heart.
00:48:43.199 --> 00:48:44.719
Um, I came in on top.
00:48:44.800 --> 00:48:52.800
I now realize I'm the protagonist of this issue, and the thing that I have is and I think what I've come to learn is that there is value in having fun.
00:48:53.039 --> 00:49:04.639
There's value in playing with action figures, there's value in having an excellent writer and an excellent artist show you two comic book icons meeting up, you know?
00:49:04.960 --> 00:49:07.039
I agree, and I think crossovers can be fun.
00:49:07.119 --> 00:49:12.719
One of my favorite comics I ever edited was a crossover, Batman's Shadow by Steve Orlando, Scott Snyder, Robin.
00:49:15.840 --> 00:49:19.840
But yeah, crossovers can be great, crossovers can be fun, and like comics are allowed to be anything.
00:49:19.920 --> 00:49:24.880
They're allowed to be literature, they're allowed to be summer blockbusters, they're allowed to be something you read once and never read again.
00:49:24.960 --> 00:49:27.039
They're they're allowed to be something to change your life forever.
00:49:27.199 --> 00:49:31.039
Uh and Jake, I've given you the victory, which has changed my life forever.
00:49:31.199 --> 00:49:34.960
Nick, I think you did a tremendous job, and I love the comic you brought, and I would read it again the heart of you.
00:49:35.199 --> 00:49:36.719
If you hate me, you think I'm scum.
00:49:36.960 --> 00:49:38.159
No, I don't.
00:49:43.440 --> 00:49:44.719
Hey, thanks for listening.
00:49:44.960 --> 00:49:52.400
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