Podcast: Marcus Arroyo reassumes play-calling duties; Baylor review

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Hi everyone, welcome back to the Sun Devil Source Podcast presented by Jones Auto Centers.
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Gabby Chernoff and Chris Cartman were here with our Baylor review.
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Uh we went pretty in-depth.
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That was a long post-game show we did on Saturday after the game, but we're gonna have a ton more details with some examples, some visual examples for you all from the game about everything that happened.
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We all saw the problems and how ASU can fix them.
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And a lot of that starts with Kenny Dillingham's new role.
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He said he's returning to being the head coach, which of course that never technically changed, but he was uh calling plays.
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He's been calling plays for ASU's last five games, starting with the Sun Bowl.
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Um, and now he has given those play calling duties back to Marcus Arroyo.
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Chris, you were the first one to report that this morning during practice.
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We saw it.
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Kenny was spending a lot more time over with the defense on that side of the field.
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And we saw Marcus Arroyo uh calling plays, talked to Jalen Clem, ASU offensive lineman, after practice.
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He said he's very confident in Arroyo's ability.
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Um, and the offense just actually found out about it today.
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He said the quarterbacks might have known a little bit earlier, but they were all kind of just went with it today.
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And he said the transition was smooth.
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So um, new role for Kenny Dillingham, maybe a little bit less spread thin as far as trying to uh make his efforts go to all different parts of the team.
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We're gonna talk about that a little bit later, how it in turn will help ASU's defense, which were uh we saw a lot of those issues against Baylor with the defense.
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But first we're gonna hear from Kenny Dillingham what he had to say about giving those duties back to offensive coordinator Marcus Oreo.
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I just want to be able to be a head coach again.
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I want to be able to have balance.
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I want to I want to make sure our team has the has the one singular mind focus and passion energy.
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And I think it was a mistake for me to remove myself from being the head coach.
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So um, I want to go be the head coach, and I want to make sure that when I watch our team play, they have an identity and they play the way that on all three phases that I want a football team that I'm in charge of the flight.
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It was just a not a mistake by me, and I got well, I mean, I got the utmost confidence in this football staff.
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That's not a concern at all.
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Same staff that, you know, people thought and I believe were one of the best in the country.
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We still are one of the best in the country.
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We're just not getting the performance done.
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I think that's on me because I've probably pulled away from my strength and what I do well, and I've, you know, probably hindered what other people do well.
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So I got to get back in control of that.
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And uh Marcus has been helping out all along, and he's a phenomenal coach.
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And I just think that I'm better suited to be a head football coach.
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I like it more.
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I like I have a I have a beat on what's going on more.
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You know, like I said, I just you know, you live and you learn from mistakes.
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I think that was a mistake.
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And uh I live and I learn it, and that's what I have to assess.
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And it's all about fixing problems, right?
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That's my job as a head coach, is to assess where I think there's an issue uh and just try to fix those issues.
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And uh, like I said, I want to make sure the identity of our team stays an identity uh that I want.
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And uh I feel like there's a little bit of that that we're we're kind of losing, and I want to make sure we don't lose that is developing good schemes and sound schemes.
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It's very important, absolutely, and we have a phenomenal staff on all stages, and that's my job is to hire a staff who can do that.
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Uh my bigger job is to make sure the the organization and the program is culturally in the direction, you know, and the mindset.
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When people describe our football team, they're describing our culture.
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And I want to make sure that I have a bigger footprint on all of that, like I did, you know, the last three years.
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And uh, you know, selfishly I got bored and I wanted to coach again, and you know, probably shouldn't do that.
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You know, not a not a good choice.
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All right.
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So Kenny Dillingham, uh, as I said, wanted to reassume the head coaching duties.
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Um, and the ASU's defense, as we saw, was clearly the bigger issue uh in that 55-19 loss to Baylor.
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Big, unexpected loss.
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Kenny Dillingham called it atrocious.
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The players that I talked to today called it embarrassing, said it was kind of hard to get back to work after that just because kind of puts you in a negative head space.
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But they were able uh to do that over the past couple days and getting back to practice today.
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The first time in a long time, we've had like a normal practice schedule in Tempe, that morning practice.
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It hasn't happened since that Texas AM game, which seems like ages ago uh at this point.
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But Kenny Dillingham kind of able to distribute his attention to all aspects uh of his football team now.
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Obviously, the obvious effect of this is Marcus Oreo calling plays.
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But how does this affect ASU's defense, which was the bigger issue against Baylor, Chris?
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Yeah, see, fans understandably they watch the games and they make their determinations of how they feel about things based almost entirely on that, logically, right?
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Um, but they're not seeing practices, they're not seeing the team meetings, the position group meetings, and all of the other behind-the-scenes preparations that are essential to a successful football team.
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And so immediately when I tweeted out the news about Kenny Dillingham switching his role and Marcus Arroyo taking over the offense, a lot of people were like, okay, but how is that going to help the defense?
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Right.
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And I get it.
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But what they maybe you're not understanding is that the last few years, as Dillingham just alluded to, um, he was the connective tissue that was everywhere.
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So when he's not focused on building a game plan and calling plays when the meetings are all taking place with the positions, then he is bouncing around to the other rooms, popping in, listening to the coaches, coaching the coaches, making sure that the players understand what's being presented to them from the coaches so that you have this connectivity uh everywhere within your program.
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So this started with the Duke game last year.
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Um, ASU played really well on offense.
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Billingham was a lot more involved in the the play calling that day.
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Um, he decided he wanted to continue that into this year.
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He liked Marcus Arroyo, thought Marcus Arroyo had done a very good job, but that maybe he could squeeze a little bit more out in that respect.
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Arroyo is a very organized, detail-oriented person, coaches the quarterbacks.
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There's a lot of other aspects that he's working hand in glove with Kenny Dillingham on that are super important.
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Um, and um Brian Ward, ASU's defensive coordinator, went from coaching safeties and nickels in practices last year to being more of an overseeing role of the defense to where he was doing what Dillingham had been doing last year with the defense, broadly, like all the position meeting rooms and making sure that everybody is on the same page connected, right?
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Well, ASU has two new position coaches on defense this year.
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Uh Brian Ward's role change led to a decision to put David Gibbs in charge of the safeties.
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Gibbs was he's a longtime veteran coach, a couple decades back background, including DC and coaching in the secondary.
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He had been an analyst for ASU staff last year, so that means he's evaluating and watching in his every practice.
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And so the hope was he seamlessly is able to take over from Brian Ward, coaching safeties and nickels, and then Demetrius Martin as coaching corners.
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Uh, last year it was Brian Carrington and Dwayne Walker, who were really managing ASU's corners, which did very well, right?
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Keith Abney and uh Javin Robinson played well, Rodney Bimage played well.
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Um, well, I don't think it's it's um a mystery that ASU's secondary played really poorly against Baylor with a ton of communication errors, misassignments, and other problems.
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So then the question becomes why?
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Um I'm I can assure you that it's not because the safeties coach or the cornerback's coach didn't know what the players were supposed to be doing on all of these plays.
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They knew very well what they were supposed to be doing.
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The issue, though, is that making sure that the players understand what they're supposed to be doing before the game and also within the game, their communication calls that put them on the same page.
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So, like one example in that game is people saw uh two defensive players going to one receiver sometimes.
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That's because of a misunderstanding about the roles within a coverage concept, or it's related to miscommunication on some of these plays and how they get executed.
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Um, so Dillingham's return to the overseeing of those coaches and those things allows him to make sure that all the players are on the same page and understand what they're trying to be doing, so that they're prepared to execute the game plan, which is what Brian Ward thinks are the best calls for the situations.
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And that's a whole nother element to this about whether or not they made some of the right decisions with their game plan and um with the the play calls.
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I I think that they made some, I think they made some mistakes, but also this is getting really in the weeds, but Baylor hadn't run the ball successfully, so there was an idea that if you play more cover four, you can bracket Gavin Freeman in the slot because you have a safety that's helping more deep in that.
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But when Baylor gashed ASU on the first run touchdown and then had some success running the ball elsewhere, and there was a bunch of missed tackle tackles, then ASU had to bring up a safety, which then made it more difficult from a coverage standpoint with Gavin Freeman in the slot and some other other things that they were able to do.
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So these were compounding challenges that they faced, uh due largely, I think, to the lack of cohesion on the defensive side of the ball and tackling issues.
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And Dillingham's hope is by going back to the role that he had previously and Marcus Arroyo had previously, including when he was in 2024 a finalist for the Burroughs Award for Coach of the Year.
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In fact, he was the only offensive coach who was a finalist, so he was the de facto offensive coach of the year, according to the Broyle Burros Award.
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Um I I it's hard to really it's like logical that Kenny Dillingham wanted to take overplay calling and why he did, as he outlined there, he thought he could squeeze more out.
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I think it's also understandable that if Brian Ward was going to be in a new role overseeing the defense, that he thought that that would be able to alleviate any concerns like those that popped up.
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But there's really only one Kenny Dillingham.
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My analogy really is that um if the problems all flow from the headwaters, then the downstream effects are the result of what happened much earlier, right?
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And it's easy to say, okay, here are the symptoms of the of that problem that you see on the field.
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It's much more difficult to really understand where that came from when you're not seeing it visually as a fan.
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I think that this is a logical reason for why they have been disconnected on defense.
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And there's a lot of things that need to get fixed from a communication and an understanding standpoint.
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Um, and we'll see how quickly that they're able to make progress in these areas.
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Well, like you said, Marcus Arroyo, a Burles Award finalist, and he called plays ASU and ASU's entire Peach Bowl season and all of last year's regular season, except for the Sun Bowl.
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And you know, last year the offense, a lot of injuries.
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Sam Levitt was in and out, and then just out uh for the end of the year, and then Jordan Tyson was kind of in the same boat there.
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Um and Ben Coleman played half the year.
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Yeah.
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And we we talked about um just you know, maybe putting Sam Levitt in situations in his second year that he wasn't ready for.
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So, what specifically did Kenny Dillingham not like about Marcus Arroyo's play calling?
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What did he what did he want to squeeze out?
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Because if you're looking at it from those factors, it seems like Marcus Arroyo was pretty good at his job.
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Yeah, Kenny Dillingham said that he wanted to coach football.
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And clearly what he accomplished earlier before he became ASU's head coach is what enabled him to become the head coach.
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Now, maybe there's a little bit of hubris there to think that you're gonna be able to do a little bit better uh calling plays than Arroyo, and maybe he was wrong about that.
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Um I certainly like understand the confidence that he has in his himself to be able to do that and think that he's gonna be able to do it better um than somebody else.
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I myself candidly said I thought that Marcus Arroyo didn't do as good of a job last year with his personnel compared to the prior year, which when I thought he did an excellent job.
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And in fact, I said that it made sense that Kenny Dillingham would want to take over play calling.
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So maybe that was bad analysis on my part to not perceive the potential problems that have developed from that.
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Um I don't I don't think that he thought it's important to say, I don't think that he thought Roy was doing a bad job or else he would have replaced him.
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He would have had a new OC.
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He thought that things were fine or maybe even good, but that he could maybe even do a little bit better.
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It's like somebody else makes you know eight out of ten free throws, and you think that you can make nine or ten in your betting, right?
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That you can make nine or ten nine or ten.
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Right?
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Like the problem is that that is contained to that scenario.
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Ken Dillingham giving up you know, taking over play calling duties, had a cascading series of events that he didn't expect to happen that have put his team in jeopardy of a bad season.
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So in hindsight's always 2020.
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And look, Abby, Kenny Dillingham is still a young head football coach.
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This is his fourth year as a head football coach, he's in his 30s.
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People have a lot of lessons to learn that are not easy.
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Right?
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And when you're in charge of dozens, hundreds of people, really, probably when you include the players, there's a whole lot of things that can go wrong with the operation that you may not anticipate.
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The reason that I have confidence in Dillingham more than prior coaches at ASU is he's very personally accountable.
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Like he is the guy who looks at himself first and says, Okay, what were my mistakes?
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And and what how do I fix it and how do we get better?
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And then I think what that does is it it um other people admire that.
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Like, who doesn't like the guy who falls on the grenade?
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Right?
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Like, um, so I think that the coaches are like, okay, he's taking ownership, we have to be better.
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Um, the players say our head coach is not blaming us, he's blaming himself primarily.
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We want to fight for that guy.
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So I think that there's a lot of positives, and then also, even though maybe these were mistakes, I think that they were things that were somewhat logical in or largely logical in why um he decided the the things that he did at the time.
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My problem with coaches is always when I it doesn't make sense what they're what they did at the time, not in retrospect.
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We can all Monday morning quarterback and go back and say you made mistakes X, Y, and Z, and okay.
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But this isn't a ASU is not a place where you have a lot more money to spend than all these other programs that you're competing against and an abundance of advantages.
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And so there's more areas where things have to really go well, and clearly they haven't, and this is potentially a big thing that can change the downstream effects of a number of things, and so now we just evaluate that and see how that goes.
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Well, you can see the downstream effects too, even off the field, as far as uh players kind of adapting the same sort of accountability and responsibility uh that Dillingham does.
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I talked to CJ Fight, Montana Warren, and Jalen Clum today, and they all kind of said the same thing.
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They were like, we need to look in the mirror, we need to point fingers at ourselves.
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And they talked about that Sunday voluntary workout.
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They said it was 100% attendance, at least from the too deep.
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And CJ Fight said they had some sort of sign uh up in the weight room about like individual accountability.
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And that goes back to what Dillingham said on Monday about, you know, you can look at a big picture and say, burn it all down.
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But if you look at one or two things that each individual person has to fix, uh it seems a lot less daunting.
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And it seems like that's kind of the approach that they're taking this week.
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And like you said, it's a downstream effect that starts with Kenny Dillingham.
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He takes accountability and responsibility and takes a lot of pride in that, and so do his players, and he doesn't need to tell them to do so.
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He's leading by example in that sense.
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Uh, but kind of getting back to our conversation about the defense and how much it struggled against Baylor, just miscommunications, because that connective tissue, uh, as you said in Kenny Dillingham, uh wasn't there in the way that he needed to be because he's focused on calling plays uh on offense and the missed tackles.
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I mean, that was a story, missed assignments, not looking great against the run, which you talked about a little bit.
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Uh, can you just expand more on those uh defensive errors and how Kenny Dillingham's new role or new role, returning role back to giving back those play calling duties to Marcus Arroyo can affect how ASU's defense might be able to improve in those regards?
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Yeah, I think it starts with the energy and the intensity of all the players.
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When you're in games or even in practices and you're focused on your play sheet and you're playing like a chess match against the other team's coordinator, and you're thinking about the next series of plays and what you need to do to get your offense going, it's really hard to simultaneously be the energy spark, the source that kind of gets everybody else fired up and playing hard.
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And I don't think that they've had as much of that palpable passion being exuded out there in the last two or three games that we typically saw, like in past years.
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I think that football to a large degree is about passion and intensity, especially in the trenches at the line of scrimmage.
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And Baylor has a very big offensive line.
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I spoke a little bit disparagingly about Baylor's offensive line before this game because they had not done a good job of establishing the line of scrimmage and running the ball effectively.
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So ASU obviously saw the film and was aware of Baylor's challenges, right?
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Um they had the early play that where essentially Lyric Rawls took a bad angle.
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Um, Baylor had seven blockers for seven guys, so you need a your safety who's free there to come up and make that tackle.
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He didn't get enough width.
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That should have been a three, four-yard gain on that play.
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Okay, well, now Baylor, you know, then you had the missed tackles.
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Owen Long missed a tackle on a long run, Martel Hughes missed a tackle on a run.
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Okay, now if you're the the coaches, you're thinking, okay, we're struggling with our gap integrity against these runs.
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Our fits are not good, we're having some missed tackles.
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That then stress tests your game plan because ASU plays a base 425 nickel.
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They're hybrid nickel player.
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He's got to be able to do a lot of different things.
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He's got to be physical around the line of scrimmage, get off blocks, help in the run game.
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He's got to be able to then also cover zone drops, man coverage.
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It's a very difficult thing.
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ASU had a special player in Shamari Simmons do that in 2024, and it hasn't replaced him with anybody that is comparable at All of the facets of that position.
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So what happens, Gabby, is when you don't stop the run as well as you think that you should, you then have to bring up Boogie Wilson into the box.
00:22:12.559 --> 00:22:30.640
And then by bringing up Boogie Wilson more into the box, you then have less of an ability to play the cover four match quarters where you have more coverage, where you have the ability to bracket Gavin Freeman, who's one of the best slot receivers in the country production-wise.
00:22:30.880 --> 00:22:44.000
And so then you create more space and more room for a guy like that to operate against a Montana Warren whose strength is more around the line of scrimmage.
00:22:44.079 --> 00:22:46.079
It's not coverage.
00:22:46.480 --> 00:23:01.119
So then there's a question about okay, should they have been prepared to have more of a true nickel who could cover when if ASU went to a look where it brought Boogie Wilson into the box?
00:23:01.359 --> 00:23:03.119
The problem is twofold.
00:23:03.279 --> 00:23:14.400
Number one, it that's not easy to do on a week basis, and they hadn't had been practicing any like true nickel corner in that role before the week.
00:23:14.640 --> 00:23:22.799
And the second part is you still need that player to be good in the other aspects, which are like two-thirds of the role.
00:23:23.680 --> 00:23:37.359
So the really disappointing thing for ASU in that game was not fitting the run properly and being physical at the line of scrimmage, as well as Brian Ward's typical defenses have done.
00:23:37.519 --> 00:23:42.960
The last two years' top three run defense in the Big 12 been a huge factor in their success.
00:23:43.279 --> 00:23:50.240
And then the tackling, which made that early sec early issue earlier issue worse.
00:23:50.480 --> 00:23:58.640
And so now you're almost spinning about okay, how do we actually fix these within a game?
00:23:58.960 --> 00:24:22.079
When on top of that, there's the communication problems that are happening because the coaches articulating to the players their coverage assignments in these route structures that they're running wasn't being executed to the point that you have guys that are leaving areas where they're responsible for or going to receivers that they're not supposed to be covering.
00:24:22.240 --> 00:24:24.480
Also, there were big problems in the zone drops.
00:24:24.559 --> 00:24:27.039
Owen Long was a very instinctual player.
00:24:27.200 --> 00:24:33.359
He was almost like guessing at times in a way that put him out of the window that DJ Lagway was playing in.
00:24:33.519 --> 00:24:35.599
And let's also give credit to Baylor.
00:24:35.759 --> 00:24:43.200
DJ Lagway is a guy who had 14 interceptions last year at Florida, and he didn't really look that good at the beginning of the season.
00:24:43.359 --> 00:24:47.759
He had a monster performance, like he had his best performance that he's ever had.
00:24:48.319 --> 00:24:54.319
And um that came at ASU's expense quite clearly.
00:24:54.640 --> 00:25:21.680
And um, yeah, like again, this is why I think Kenny Dillingham wants to stress test every aspect of what they're doing on defense from the looks that they're giving up front, they're how they're going to try to stop the run, what they're doing against the vulnerabilities they they might have in coverage against the personnel and play styles of an opponent.
00:25:22.799 --> 00:25:25.119
They failed in these areas.
00:25:25.359 --> 00:25:31.440
I don't think that they failed because the coaches haven't done a good job in the past, because they have.
00:25:32.079 --> 00:25:35.680
So then it becomes like why and how you fix it.
00:25:36.000 --> 00:25:42.799
And do you need to make any changes after the season with your staff to try to make sure that those things don't happen again?
00:25:43.519 --> 00:25:51.759
So will Kenny Dillingham's ability now to be more attentive to the defense in games kind of help with those in-game adjustments?
00:25:51.839 --> 00:25:56.640
And how beneficial overall will his ability to do that be for the defense?
00:25:56.960 --> 00:26:07.279
Well, I think first of all, um he's gonna be able to understand why the players were not understanding their roles on plays.
00:26:07.440 --> 00:26:21.359
Sometimes it's as simple as language, like um maybe the words that they're supposed to be using to communicate certain things are not allowing everybody to be on the same page as quickly as they need to.
00:26:21.599 --> 00:26:34.400
Maybe guys are not getting lined up as fast and correctly as they should be, which is then if you have bad alignment, you have uh usually a much poorer degraded ability to execute your assignment.
00:26:34.640 --> 00:26:48.559
So they need to make sure, Dillingham, that he's he's gonna be now in the secondary meetings, he's gonna be meeting with the corners, seeing with the safeties, he's gonna be saying, Okay, like how are you communicating these things?
00:26:48.880 --> 00:26:53.359
Do the players actually understand and have the ability to execute what it the calls that we're making?
00:26:53.519 --> 00:26:56.559
A call is no good if your players can't execute it.
00:26:56.720 --> 00:27:04.400
You can have the best call for the situation, and you could say this call will work great if we execute it.
00:27:04.559 --> 00:27:08.480
If guys have a poor ability to execute, you're in trouble.
00:27:08.720 --> 00:27:14.559
I went through the I do a pawn further review where I look at all the plays, and I do an extensive write-up.
00:27:14.640 --> 00:27:15.359
I've talked about this.
00:27:15.440 --> 00:27:17.519
People can check it out in the Devil Sanctuary.
00:27:17.680 --> 00:27:18.720
It takes a long time.
00:27:18.799 --> 00:27:22.240
I spend six to eight hours Sunday into Monday doing that.
00:27:22.480 --> 00:27:30.319
Um, ASU had busts like missed assignments, probably on about a third of their defensive plays.
00:27:30.799 --> 00:27:34.880
And a good rate, a successful rate would be closer to 90%.
00:27:36.240 --> 00:27:59.359
So if you have, I don't remember how many plays were in this game, it was a lot, but if you have like uh 80 to 90 plays and you have a coverage, you have a missed assignment on a third of them, you're going to be taken out to the woodshed when DJ Lagway is in his bag, like on his game, and Baylor's receivers are doing a really good job, right?
00:27:59.440 --> 00:28:07.039
You're gonna have literally 15, 20 plays where a team could have a touchdown, a big play, explosive play, or a touchdown.
00:28:07.759 --> 00:28:09.039
That's a catastrophe.
00:28:09.119 --> 00:28:10.480
You can't have that happen.
00:28:10.880 --> 00:28:14.880
I do I have confidence that's I I I think that's gonna improve.
00:28:15.200 --> 00:28:19.519
I don't think it's I don't think it's a knob where you go bad, good, good, bad.
00:28:19.839 --> 00:28:33.119
I think I think that probably you know it's gonna go from a two or a three to a six or a seven or an eight over the next week or two.
00:28:34.400 --> 00:28:42.480
And then is that gonna be good enough for them to then compete against Texas Tech on the road, BYU on the road?
00:28:42.960 --> 00:28:43.839
I don't know.
00:28:44.160 --> 00:29:22.079
But again, I understand the thinking behind why they did the things that they did at the time, and I do think that this stuff started with the headwaters polluting everything downstream, but unintentionally so you know it's like you didn't do a good job of understanding that your containment pond, which was supposed to be separate from the river, broke or was leaking, leaching into the river, and now you have all of these downstream effects.
00:29:22.319 --> 00:29:32.400
So now they've they have probably solved that, but now you have to clean the river, and that's not easy.
00:29:32.720 --> 00:29:48.640
Well, a good chance to clean up the water against a non-power four opponent this weekend in Hawaii, and then Texas Tech on the road next Saturday, like you said, that's a 12:30 um mountain time kick, and then two weeks after that on Halloween BYU.
00:29:48.799 --> 00:29:52.480
So a tough next uh few weeks for ASU football.
00:29:52.559 --> 00:29:59.119
But I guess, like I said, non-power four opponent against Hawaii, probably the best chance you're gonna get to do so for the rest of the game.
00:29:59.359 --> 00:30:11.200
And by the way, and not to interrupt you, but remember ASU played terrible last year against Utah, came back and then beat Texas Tech the next game.
00:30:11.599 --> 00:30:18.400
Played terrible against Utah and Kenny Dillingham's first season, then used the swinging gate to go beat UCLA.
00:30:19.039 --> 00:30:25.680
So this staff has course corrected quickly from really bad games.
00:30:25.759 --> 00:30:30.400
I think there's probably more problems that maybe even need fixing now than in the past.
00:30:30.640 --> 00:30:39.599
But if this one overarching thing that's causing a lot of the issues resolves some of those things quickly, then maybe they can be competitive.
00:30:39.839 --> 00:30:41.359
They should be Hawaii, obviously.
00:30:41.519 --> 00:30:43.119
I mean, if you don't, then the season's over.
00:30:43.359 --> 00:30:57.440
But but you know, but it but you know, against Texas Tech, a team that has struggled itself on offense, like that you can't rule out ASU's ability in the next two weeks to get something together that then puts together a competitive game in Lubbock.
00:30:58.000 --> 00:31:04.319
Well, we're gonna get into how ASU's offense can try and rebound uh from that 19-point performance as well.
00:31:04.400 --> 00:31:07.519
After a quick word from our presenting sponsor, Jones Auto Centers.
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00:31:56.079 --> 00:31:59.279
We'll be back with more on AFC's offense after a quick word from them.
00:32:21.440 --> 00:32:27.680
I want to invite you to visit our new facility in Casa Green and enjoy our way of doing business.
00:32:43.279 --> 00:32:45.599
So that ad debuting soon.
00:32:45.759 --> 00:32:52.000
I know it probably uh hurts a lot of people's hearts seeing that ad with three players who are no longer at ASU.
00:32:52.240 --> 00:33:02.240
Um, but to that point, roster building for the offense uh heading into this year with a few of those players that were lost that we just saw in that ad.
00:33:02.400 --> 00:33:09.839
And then you brought in some new weapons on offensive line, tight end, running back, a lot of new guys, especially.
00:33:10.000 --> 00:33:22.000
Uh, they kind of used that Duke, that Sun Bowl game to build their roster, give them a good, you know, starting point um in those three positions that I mentioned, the personnel, uh kind of similar to this year.
00:33:22.160 --> 00:33:24.480
They had success in the Sun Bowl.
00:33:24.640 --> 00:33:30.799
Um, and those three positions have been uh a few of the weakest on offense, Chris.
00:33:30.960 --> 00:33:42.400
So what do you think happened from the Sun Bowl to now that kind of informed ASU's roster building um all around, but with those three positions, specifically offensive line, tight end, and running back?
00:33:42.960 --> 00:33:55.680
Yeah, that Duke game really uh deceived ASU's coaching staff about the circumstances of their of their personnel.
00:33:55.920 --> 00:33:58.880
Um so let's go back to it, right?
00:33:59.039 --> 00:34:03.519
Um Mac Maxi Hanichor didn't opted out, he didn't play in that game.
00:34:04.000 --> 00:34:10.880
He had been developed quite well by Sangatui Tele into a first rounder from a JUCO guy who had only played one year one year of football.
00:34:11.119 --> 00:34:19.840
Kyle Scott, their right guard, um, became a pretty solid Big 12 player after coming from JUCO, dramatically improved.
00:34:20.320 --> 00:34:28.559
Um, in that Sun Bowl game, ASU started Jalen Clem and Champ Westbrooks, right tackle, left tackle started.
00:34:29.119 --> 00:34:41.360
Um, you know, they had Wade Helton out there, they had Rob Lapuajo played snaps, Mikai Stewart was us was starting as a left guard as a or as a right guard then there was that left guard as a true freshman.
00:34:41.519 --> 00:34:56.239
They had um Makua Poole played a lot, so they had like six of their offensive linemen from that game who played well against Duke, the ACC champion, coming back this season.
00:34:56.639 --> 00:35:14.079
So if you're the coaching staff and you know what you've done the last couple years with the development of these other players, Ihanator and Kalskott, and um you know, they had an issue last year when Ben Coleman got hurt and went out of the, you know, this for the season ending injury five, six games in, whatever it was.
00:35:14.400 --> 00:35:19.519
But Wade Helton and everyone else, you're thinking, okay, we're in a pretty good spot with our offensive line.
00:35:19.599 --> 00:35:21.199
Like that would make sense, right?
00:35:21.360 --> 00:35:25.920
Um, and then they added Tana Alotupolola to address their center issue.
00:35:26.400 --> 00:35:41.199
And they brought in Luke Baklenko from he was a backup of Oklahoma, but he had started two years before that at Stanford, and they added Jarmay Mitchell, the number one offensive line prospect with number one overall prospect in the country from the junior college ranks.
00:35:41.440 --> 00:35:45.199
So they probably thought, hey, we're in pretty good shape with our offensive line.
00:35:45.280 --> 00:35:52.480
We've developed these guys, we've seen a bunch of these guys play well against a pretty good opponent, and we're gonna continue to improve them.
00:35:54.800 --> 00:36:00.239
Very sort of perplexing, but they haven't played well this year.
00:36:00.719 --> 00:36:10.960
Um there have been a lot of just whiffs at the point of attack in giving up immediate pressure on Cutter Bowley.
00:36:11.280 --> 00:36:22.480
There have been guys not blocking the right people, like Jalen Clem got gave up a pressure where there was two guys, and he didn't block either of them in that game.
00:36:22.960 --> 00:36:30.719
Um we saw uh Luke Baklenko give up a sack or a quarterback pressure that was immediate.
00:36:30.960 --> 00:36:41.920
We saw the third and one play action where Cutterbowley was trying to get a play, um, which I think was ill-advised, the play call given the circumstances and their line issues.
00:36:42.159 --> 00:36:47.039
But um, that's the one where he ended up throwing the really ugly interception.
00:36:47.840 --> 00:37:01.119
I I it's hard for me to fault the decisions that built this roster when the offensive line had six returners from a group that played well against Duke and the Sumball.
00:37:01.519 --> 00:37:07.599
The coaches have to make decisions about resource allocation, right?
00:37:08.079 --> 00:37:16.960
So it makes sense kind of that if you're gonna supplement with Baklenko, Jermaine Mitchell, Tana Alatupol that you think is gonna be able to man your center position.
00:37:17.440 --> 00:37:29.519
And then the coaches said are probably thinking, okay, who can be the trigger man of our offense in behind a lot of clean protection?
00:37:29.760 --> 00:37:32.159
They like Cutter Bowley, you know.
00:37:32.320 --> 00:37:38.480
Uh started in the SEC as a freshman, took his licks, but also showed a lot of good things, right?
00:37:38.960 --> 00:37:48.639
And the way that I would sum up Cutter Bowley's play through four games, Gabby, is um clean pocket, pretty good.
00:37:49.840 --> 00:37:52.719
Dirty pocket pretty bad.
00:37:53.519 --> 00:38:10.159
And um not to say he's been perfect with clean pockets, like sometimes he's been inaccurate, usually that's related to footwork, drops, understanding like situationally where you can miss with the ball, and you know, but he's made a lot of good throws.
00:38:10.480 --> 00:38:16.079
Like he he's been graded well by Pro Football Focus and pretty much throughout his games.
00:38:16.320 --> 00:38:19.119
We we covered the interceptions against Texas St.
00:38:19.280 --> 00:38:20.239
Ann, they were not his fault.
00:38:20.320 --> 00:38:27.679
He made big time throws in that game, he made a great touchdown throw um to Reed Harris against Kansas.
00:38:27.840 --> 00:38:30.239
He also misfired on a bunch of throws at Kansas.
00:38:30.400 --> 00:38:37.199
He made the bad interception that we talked about, which I think was also a coaching play-calling mistake on the third and one against Baylor.
00:38:37.360 --> 00:38:46.480
But gosh, he made several really good throws in that game downfield to Reed Harris, O'Marion Miller, you know, touchdown.
00:38:46.639 --> 00:38:56.159
Um and the thing that you see when you watch this a pattern emerge of the pockets clean, he has the ability to get even through progressions.
00:38:56.239 --> 00:39:03.599
He made some back side third read progressions where he made good throws on time and accurate.
00:39:03.840 --> 00:39:10.320
The problem is that he gets a little bit frazzled with unexpected pressure quickly.
00:39:10.719 --> 00:39:14.559
And um, ASU did a pretty good job in some respects in this game.
00:39:14.639 --> 00:39:24.320
We talked, remember, after um that bad performance against Kansas, we talked about needing to get bowling into some more roll right situations, some more pocket movement.
00:39:24.400 --> 00:39:29.360
We talked about getting some pitches to the running backs to try to have runs that broke outside.
00:39:29.519 --> 00:39:31.679
They did all those things successfully in this game.
00:39:31.760 --> 00:39:38.239
They had screens, they ran the ball well to the outside, they had uh they rolled the pocket and they made some accurate throws.
00:39:38.320 --> 00:39:40.719
Like we, you know, we can show some of these things now.
00:39:41.039 --> 00:39:46.559
But you know, ultimately, when things are have been bad, they've been bad.
00:39:46.800 --> 00:40:02.800
And I think that they've been bad because coaches didn't anticipate that they were gonna have these this degree of Swiss cheese type problems in their past pro, coupled with not running the ball as well as they had expected.
00:40:02.960 --> 00:40:04.800
And they they they did they had some runs.
00:40:04.960 --> 00:40:14.639
We've talked about their running back situation, but the coordination of their blocking and protections has been a disappointment this season.
00:40:14.960 --> 00:40:22.800
And Sangatuitele, who as as good as he's been in the last couple of years, which he has been excellent, right?
00:40:23.519 --> 00:40:34.960
It doesn't mean that you're gonna be able to reach and communicate and get all of your players to develop at the same rate in the same ways as your prior players.
00:40:35.599 --> 00:40:37.199
Lord knows, Gabby.
00:40:37.440 --> 00:40:41.760
I I deal with I deal with college kids every single day.
00:40:42.320 --> 00:40:43.840
And you love it so much.
00:40:44.239 --> 00:40:45.360
Really talented.
00:40:45.440 --> 00:40:48.480
It is actually the one of the best parts of my job, right?
00:40:49.199 --> 00:41:04.320
But some people who are college days that you communicate things with, they pick it up faster, and you have to repeat it less, and you have to go over it less, and you have to give the examples fewer times.
00:41:04.559 --> 00:41:13.920
And other people sometimes I hate to say it, it feels like pulling your hair out when it's like we have already been over this a bunch of times.
00:41:14.079 --> 00:41:18.079
Here's the examples, here's the analogies, here are the cues.
00:41:18.400 --> 00:41:31.440
I I've I've given it in uh visual, your visual learner, we got the visual, you're a uh learner through uh you know, hearing it and being having it explained to you, okay, we're doing that.
00:41:31.679 --> 00:41:47.599
I it's hard for coaches to feel like all of the ways by which they explain everything to get everybody to execute the things that they need, so that ever all 11 players can do their assignments together.
00:41:47.840 --> 00:41:53.039
If you have only one breakdown or two breakdowns on place, it ruins plays.
00:41:53.280 --> 00:42:07.840
Uh, Marcus Arroyo said today they've had, I think, what do you say, 13 drive killers, like catastrophic plays by their offense, like the ball knocked out of O'Marion Miller's hands twice in a three-game period fumble.
00:42:08.159 --> 00:42:12.320
Reed Harris dropping a ball that either was a touchdown or a first and goal.
00:42:12.400 --> 00:42:14.639
These are some of your best players, right?
00:42:14.880 --> 00:42:23.440
Having these pass protection breakdowns, having Cutterbully throw the ball away, having tight ends, you know, mess up some of their assignments.
00:42:23.599 --> 00:42:30.000
Any of these things can be drive killers, penalties and obviously fumbles or interceptions or whatever.
00:42:30.320 --> 00:42:35.840
A successful rate is maybe one of these per game or two of these per game at the most.
00:42:36.079 --> 00:42:40.400
ASU is averaging more like three of these per game.
00:42:41.440 --> 00:42:48.079
That's not gonna get the job done when also you have the amount of defensive problems that you have.
00:42:49.440 --> 00:43:05.280
You talk about those defensive problems a lot on that side of the ball, but going back to what you were saying earlier about Cutter Bowley and kind of his strengths and weaknesses, there's a lot of fans calling for Kenny Dillingham to pull the plug on Cutter Bowley, stick Mikey Keen in there.
00:43:05.440 --> 00:43:11.679
Um, and he said that that's not even really in the realm of possibility for something that he's looking at right now.
00:43:11.760 --> 00:43:20.000
So, where do you think Cutter Bowley with his, I guess, weaknesses, ranks, and ASU's uh pecking order of problems that we saw against Baylor?
00:43:20.400 --> 00:43:23.920
There's plenty of things that Cutter Bowley needs to get better at.
00:43:24.559 --> 00:43:36.719
Um, but I would in no way, shape, or form expect better performance from ASU's offense or its team with any of its other quarterback options on the field right now.
00:43:37.039 --> 00:43:44.400
Mikey Keen um had 10 or more interceptions in two seasons.
00:43:44.719 --> 00:43:46.400
He doesn't have mobility.
00:43:46.559 --> 00:43:59.760
Like, if you had a a really athletic mobile quarterback, maybe you you know, who also has the experience and understands like the passing game and everything that you need to do, then maybe I might think differently about this.
00:44:00.239 --> 00:44:05.039
Equation given ASU's offensive line challenges and the protection issues that they have.
00:44:05.360 --> 00:44:13.840
But Jake Fetty's not ready from a command of their offense standpoint, I don't think, even though he does have that athleticism and mobility.
00:44:14.320 --> 00:44:18.960
And again, I think Cutter Bowley's been pretty good when the pocket's been clean.
00:44:19.039 --> 00:44:20.000
Has he missed throws?
00:44:20.159 --> 00:44:20.639
Absolutely.
00:44:20.719 --> 00:44:22.000
You know, that's going to happen.
00:44:22.159 --> 00:44:29.679
But he hasn't made interceptions and just bad decision throws, putting the ball in jeopardy when the pocket's been clean.
00:44:29.840 --> 00:44:32.000
That is what would really alarm you.
00:44:32.239 --> 00:44:34.800
Under duress, he's made some mistakes.
00:44:34.960 --> 00:44:42.000
Trying to throw the ball away to not get a penalty for an intentional grounding or take a sack when he shouldn't take a sack.
00:44:42.159 --> 00:44:58.239
Um, understanding when he needs to throw the ball away, understanding hitting a check down earlier when he's facing pressure, making sure that his drop is the correct length, making sure so that he can then get the ball accurately to where it needs to be, to uh a landmark that a receiver is going to be at.
00:44:58.320 --> 00:45:01.199
Like these are lots, there's lots of things that he's gonna be able to get better at.
00:45:01.360 --> 00:45:09.119
But we could put up a four-game highlight at Cutter Bowley, and if you didn't know the bad, you would go, man, that guy's a dude who can actually swing the ball around the yard.
00:45:09.280 --> 00:45:14.320
Uh, and there's other examples of quarterbacks who took years to really become what they are.
00:45:14.559 --> 00:45:16.400
Tyler Shuck is a really good example.
00:45:16.559 --> 00:45:19.840
NFL quarterback, uh, he's starting right now.
00:45:20.079 --> 00:45:23.360
Um he went to Oregon out of school.
00:45:23.519 --> 00:45:25.039
He ended up having to transfer.
00:45:25.199 --> 00:45:29.599
Really, not until he was like a fifth or sixth-year college player did he really have a breakthrough.
00:45:29.760 --> 00:45:31.440
He is 6'5, 220.
00:45:31.519 --> 00:45:34.159
He's very similar to Cutterbowly in a lot of respects.
00:45:34.400 --> 00:45:38.639
He is he was a uh guy who panicked sometimes uh under duress.
00:45:38.960 --> 00:45:42.320
Uh, he had plenty of areas where he needed to fix and clean up his game.
00:45:42.480 --> 00:45:45.679
It took literally six years, five years of college for him to get to that point.
00:45:45.760 --> 00:45:48.079
Cutterbully's in his third year of college.
00:45:49.360 --> 00:45:55.599
It is a very natural thing for fans to want to pull the plug on a starting quarterback when things aren't going well.
00:45:55.760 --> 00:46:02.480
That is like a very high on their order of things that they want to then immediately fix.
00:46:02.880 --> 00:46:09.840
Mikey Keene has two yard runs of more than 10 yards in 2300 college snaps.
00:46:10.239 --> 00:46:20.960
He doesn't have the escape ability, he doesn't have the arm talent, um, he doesn't have the things that would be like, okay, that is what's going to overcome our limitations on offense.
00:46:21.280 --> 00:46:28.400
So, and again, Cutter Bowley made sense as the addition for ASU, not in hindsight.
00:46:28.559 --> 00:46:29.840
Hindsight's 2020.
00:46:29.920 --> 00:46:37.679
Now that we know ASU's offensive problems, you could go, it'd be better if ASU had a more mobile quarterback who could escape and run for first downs and all that.
00:46:37.840 --> 00:46:39.519
That wasn't the calculus at the time.
00:46:39.679 --> 00:46:45.360
At the time, the calculus was we did well against Duke, and our offensive line looks pretty good.
00:46:45.440 --> 00:46:50.719
And Kamari Anderson's coming back, and Jason Brown ran for a hundred and something yards in that game, and he's back.
00:46:50.800 --> 00:46:55.760
And Kyson Brown, who had a season ending injury early on that we had as our starter, he's back.
00:46:56.000 --> 00:46:59.920
Um, we think pretty good about our offense going into next year.
00:47:00.079 --> 00:47:18.239
Let's get a trigger man who can throw the ball around the yard to Reed Harris and Amarion Miller behind protected pockets, give us big play capability, attack our opponents in the Big 12 that really are challenging because of their coverages, Texas Tech and BYU, right, etc.
00:47:18.719 --> 00:47:30.800
Um, and I don't really fault them for the logic or the the what they saw from an analytical standpoint um with their offense.
00:47:30.960 --> 00:47:36.079
And I also think that Cutter Bowley still has probably a lot of really good football ahead of him.
00:47:36.559 --> 00:47:44.800
Um and um he's gonna have to keep getting better though, because certainly there's a lot of things that he can improve upon.
00:47:45.280 --> 00:47:51.440
Well, we saw flashes of that kind of offense that you were talking about that you know we thought we might see a little bit more consistently.
00:47:51.519 --> 00:48:01.039
AC was able to move the ball down the field pretty well uh throughout that game, but once it got to the red zone, not so much.
00:48:01.360 --> 00:48:05.519
Bob kiss why why why the disconnect there?
00:48:06.079 --> 00:48:08.239
How do you move the ball so well leading up to that?
00:48:08.320 --> 00:48:11.679
And then once you get there, you can't convert for a touchdown.
00:48:12.079 --> 00:48:18.400
Yeah, um, and they had issues with the red area even in preseason camp.
00:48:18.559 --> 00:48:20.639
That was a little bit of a concern.
00:48:21.360 --> 00:48:25.519
Remember, when you're in the red zone, it's compressed area.
00:48:25.840 --> 00:48:29.119
That means that it's easier for defense.
00:48:29.360 --> 00:48:34.000
There's they don't have to cover as much ground, they can change their their coverages, right?
00:48:34.400 --> 00:48:41.119
ASU hasn't been able to reset the line of scrimmage from a physicality standpoint and in a in a in a reliable way.
00:48:41.760 --> 00:48:50.239
And um there's just been a little bit of a disjointed nature to their ability to execute some of their some of their concepts.
00:48:50.400 --> 00:48:55.760
You could say that maybe they need to have some different types of things uh on their call sheet.
00:48:55.920 --> 00:49:08.960
We saw Texas, um, pardon me, we saw Baylor um, you know, with the quarterback fake uh power and then throw over the top to the tight end releasing through the line.
00:49:09.119 --> 00:49:11.280
One time it didn't work, one time it did work.
00:49:11.440 --> 00:49:15.679
We saw a big body tight end post up Kyle McDonald successfully.
00:49:15.840 --> 00:49:28.480
Okay, maybe there's some things that they need to do differently with their personnel or their calls in the red area, but you're right, like they have moved the ball quite well at times in some of these games.
00:49:28.880 --> 00:49:32.320
And I don't know that there's a super clear answer.
00:49:32.480 --> 00:49:35.360
Like it's not like this isn't like a one-answer thing.
00:49:35.599 --> 00:49:46.960
Um, it's I think more so figuring out how to overcome some of the limitations that you have from a personnel standpoint while maximizing the things that you have that are positives.
00:49:47.199 --> 00:49:54.639
And that was the second conference game, and it was you know their third game against like a decent opponent.
00:49:54.880 --> 00:49:58.400
And I think that they're figuring it out.
00:49:58.480 --> 00:50:00.800
Maybe it's maybe it's too slow, certainly.
00:50:00.880 --> 00:50:05.360
In that game, they weren't gonna win, even if they had converted some of those, I don't think.
00:50:05.519 --> 00:50:13.119
Uh, but they're gonna have to do better than that um in games that are closer and lower scoring than they have.
00:50:14.079 --> 00:50:30.320
Well, we talked about mistakes on the field, actual gameplay, you know, personnel decisions, coaching decisions, internal staff decisions, um, and kind of the trickle-down effects and mistakes that have been made in any of those regards.
00:50:30.559 --> 00:50:34.559
Where do you think the biggest mistakes have been made throughout all of that?
00:50:36.559 --> 00:50:42.480
Um, yeah, I think in retrospect, it was a mistake for Kenny Dilling and the takeover play calling.
00:50:42.559 --> 00:50:46.480
Even even I made the mistake thinking that that would be a good idea.
00:50:46.719 --> 00:50:47.599
I was wrong.
00:50:47.840 --> 00:50:49.199
I have no problem saying that.
00:50:49.360 --> 00:50:53.519
I also thought ASU's offensive and defensive lines would be better.
00:50:53.760 --> 00:50:58.480
Um, you know, when you're watching practices, sometimes it's hard to tell how good.
00:50:59.280 --> 00:51:03.840
Like, is it is a D line that good or is an O line kind of bad?
00:51:04.079 --> 00:51:04.400
Right.
00:51:04.559 --> 00:51:18.320
As an as an example, you know, um coverages, it's like when you're going up against the team that you know best, like your own side, your own offense, your defense is gonna have less coverage issues.
00:51:18.559 --> 00:51:29.679
When teams run totally different route structures with different players, much harder than defending your own players and your own scheme that you're familiar with on that side of the ball.
00:51:30.000 --> 00:51:40.000
So, and these things can be not just deceiving for me, which they did deceive me to some degree, they can be very deceiving for coaching staff.
00:51:40.239 --> 00:51:50.880
Because I asked Brian Ward and other coaches, like, it seems like you have very few missed assignments out there compared to normal in camp.
00:51:50.960 --> 00:51:58.800
You know, they had a lot of veteran players, guys that had come in from elsewhere that had started and played a lot of reps, returning starters.
00:51:59.599 --> 00:52:03.440
They're thinking, okay, we're executing our coverages pretty well, right?
00:52:03.760 --> 00:52:04.880
And they weren't.
00:52:05.280 --> 00:52:18.880
Um the the real answer to your question, Gabby, is whether what Kenny Dillingham thinks will be a big fix actually makes the types of improvements that he hopes that it will.
00:52:19.679 --> 00:52:21.199
I don't know the answer to that.
00:52:21.519 --> 00:52:32.800
A question that exists is should Dillingham have replaced Marcus Arroyo after last season and put a new offensive coordinator in place.
00:52:33.039 --> 00:52:39.840
Remember, uh Bo Baldwin was ASU's first offensive coordinator in 2023 under Dillingham.
00:52:40.800 --> 00:52:45.840
He didn't like the way that that went, and he replaced him after one season.
00:52:46.480 --> 00:53:06.719
So clearly he had a willingness to make those sorts of corrective actions, but also there's a question about Dillingham about whether he is um like if he has a soft spot for or he's overly loyal, maybe is the best way to put it for some of his assistant coaches.
00:53:06.960 --> 00:53:30.480
Like, you know, his special teams coach was a really good friend of his for a long time before coming to ASU, and then uh he remained the special teams coach maybe a year too long before ASU made these course corrections that led to a different uh specialist replacing Charlie Regal this year.
00:53:31.119 --> 00:53:35.440
So um, did was he too loyal to Marcus Arroyo?
00:53:35.599 --> 00:53:40.880
Should he have instead of thought about taking over play calling himself and leaving Arroyo as the OC?
00:53:41.199 --> 00:53:44.320
Should he have brought somebody else in to be the OC?
00:53:44.480 --> 00:53:54.480
Okay, what we don't know, Gabby, is how that would have worked out because he made a bad decision with Bo Baldwin as his first OC.
00:53:54.559 --> 00:54:03.039
Maybe if he had replaced Marcus Arroyo with somebody else, there would have been a disconnect between their offensive staff in that area.
00:54:03.360 --> 00:54:08.079
So we also don't know what would have happened had they done different things.
00:54:09.119 --> 00:54:14.159
And people, fans, they're passionate people.
00:54:14.559 --> 00:54:17.199
They just they want things to be to go well.
00:54:17.519 --> 00:54:25.119
Kenny Gillingham had said he was people have higher expectations now, right?
00:54:25.599 --> 00:54:29.360
In some ways, you're can be a victim of your own success.
00:54:29.679 --> 00:54:41.199
They achieved so much success in 2024, early on in 2025, they were not as good as hope, but eight wins was disappointing because of their how much they had returning and what they had accomplished in 2024.
00:54:41.360 --> 00:54:45.199
That now in 2026, people are like, Yeah, fire Kenny Dillingham.
00:54:46.079 --> 00:54:48.400
You know, uh cutter bully, he sucks.
00:54:48.559 --> 00:54:50.079
Get a new quarterback.
00:54:50.400 --> 00:54:58.800
Because what happens is fans where they want to find the quick, easy solutions, or they just lose confidence and it's over.
00:54:59.119 --> 00:55:08.639
But man, these challenges are multifactorial that are very difficult, complex things that you can't simplify in a tweet.
00:55:08.880 --> 00:55:15.679
Like you can't put any of what I'm saying into one little tweet unless you want to go write a long thing, you know, about it.
00:55:15.840 --> 00:55:19.199
That's 500 words, a thousand words or something.
00:55:20.239 --> 00:55:26.559
My thing again is do I do I understand the why of their decisions at the time?
00:55:26.800 --> 00:55:37.440
And do I believe that they're taking ownership of their mistakes and really earnestly trying to course correct while being accountable to what they need to be?
00:55:37.679 --> 00:55:40.719
In those areas, I think that this staff is strong.
00:55:41.039 --> 00:55:42.880
Other staffs, I think, have been weak.
00:55:42.960 --> 00:55:50.719
They've been fingerpointed, they've finger pointing, they've deflected, they themselves have not even necessarily understood the problems that they are facing.
00:55:51.039 --> 00:55:52.800
Herm Edwards was like that.
00:55:53.039 --> 00:55:54.320
I had no confidence.
00:55:54.480 --> 00:56:12.960
Bobby Hurley needed to bench coach, spent nine years, not 10 years, not getting a bench coach, trying to think that he was still the person who should be schematically in charge of the team, even when their schematics of their team were bad year over year for their personnel.
00:56:13.280 --> 00:56:13.599
Right?
00:56:13.760 --> 00:56:27.119
So, so what leads to me having a loss of confidence in his staff is when there's a disconnect between what you think you should be doing and what I think makes sense about what you should be doing.
00:56:27.360 --> 00:56:40.639
I don't think that exists here, but I also don't think that they've done a good enough job, not nearly, and I've out and we've outlined the things that have been problems, and there have been a bunch of problems, and they need to get them fixed.
00:56:40.880 --> 00:56:46.480
But am I ready to say I don't think Kenny Dillingham is the answer at ASU where they should replace Cutter Bowley?
00:56:47.519 --> 00:56:51.679
No, you know, a bad as bad of a loss as that was.
00:56:52.239 --> 00:56:54.639
I don't think we're at that place right now.
00:56:55.360 --> 00:57:02.320
Well, you kind of alluded to it, um, and seeing if these changes that are being made will actually lead to improvement.
00:57:02.480 --> 00:57:08.639
Kenny Dillingham said very starkly on Monday that you will see significant improvement.
00:57:08.960 --> 00:57:11.360
Um he was asked about it.
00:57:11.440 --> 00:57:16.400
You know, we know how he likes to give long-winded answers and kind of go off on tangents.
00:57:16.639 --> 00:57:18.239
He was asked if we would see improvement.
00:57:18.320 --> 00:57:20.480
All he said was, you will see significant improvement.
00:57:20.559 --> 00:57:23.280
And I think he said it two or three times, and that was his answer.
00:57:23.360 --> 00:57:30.400
So he was pretty stern uh in that fact, pretty decisive in what he thought was gonna or what he thinks is gonna happen.
00:57:30.719 --> 00:57:31.679
Do you agree?
00:57:32.079 --> 00:57:36.800
See, I think that media is is interesting, it's it's almost therapeutic for Kenny Dillingham.
00:57:36.880 --> 00:57:43.360
It's almost like he's talking out the way he sees things in front of the media, which I I think is very refreshing.
00:57:43.440 --> 00:57:47.840
I think it's there's a uh a candor to that that I I I respect and admire.
00:57:48.000 --> 00:57:56.320
A lot of coaches are very protective of their vulnerabilities or maybe the areas where they're uh have have had personal challenges.
00:57:56.559 --> 00:57:59.360
I don't think that that is a successful strategy.
00:57:59.599 --> 00:58:12.000
Um I think that people see you as inauthentic, they don't um respect the fact that you're not accountable or see your contributions to what's gone wrong.
00:58:12.239 --> 00:58:15.920
And um, so I don't I just think that he's much better than that.
00:58:16.079 --> 00:58:18.800
Um I there's a lot of problems.
00:58:18.960 --> 00:58:21.599
Like the Baylor game was was really bad.
00:58:21.920 --> 00:58:30.079
And um things I think they could probably fix reasonably quickly, and other things I think will be more challenging.
00:58:30.719 --> 00:58:33.119
Kind of gone through that a little bit, I think, on here.
00:58:33.360 --> 00:58:43.199
Um, but at a minimum, the players need to understand the calls and be communicating on the same page so that you don't have those types of coverage bust misassignments.
00:58:43.360 --> 00:58:56.239
They need to be understanding what gap they're supposed to be in, and they need to play with their hair on fire more with an intensity and passion that is palpable and that is very obvious, like we're seeing it.
00:58:56.480 --> 00:59:00.719
Um, I think those things can be improved pretty quickly.
00:59:00.880 --> 00:59:02.960
I think Hawaii ASU should be better.
00:59:03.039 --> 00:59:06.480
I think by Texas Tech, these things, a lot of those things should be resolved.
00:59:06.639 --> 00:59:18.559
They're not gonna fix Cutter Bowley being um frazzled under duress, um, but they can protect him in a in different ways, more creatively.
00:59:18.800 --> 00:59:32.800
I don't think that they're gonna all of a sudden have some great running back who's gonna break out and have a bunch of huge game gains, but I think that they can be better with their run game creatively with some of the pitch options and other things that we're doing.
00:59:32.960 --> 00:59:37.039
Marcus Arroyo tends to do more outside zone than Dillingham.
00:59:37.119 --> 00:59:44.719
Maybe they go to more outside zone that gets their their offensive linemen moving laterally in a way that then creates opportunities for the running backs.
00:59:44.880 --> 00:59:51.519
There's like, you know, Arroyo versus Dillingham, you're gonna live in more certain corners of the the playbook.
00:59:51.760 --> 00:59:58.639
And then Brian Ward, what he's learned is we're gonna probably have to live in more certain corners of our playbook.
00:59:58.719 --> 01:00:03.039
And I think that those things together can create a little bit better overall picture.
01:00:03.199 --> 01:00:13.039
And by the way, ASU special teams, um, there've been a lot of positive signs, progress there, like Carson Smith is kicking the ball really well.
01:00:13.199 --> 01:00:16.960
The punting is certainly a lot better than it has been in the last couple of seasons.
01:00:17.039 --> 01:00:17.519
Is it great?
01:00:17.599 --> 01:00:19.360
No, but it's at least reasonably good.
01:00:19.599 --> 01:00:28.400
Jaron Hamilton cannot drop the muff the punt or the the kickoff like he did in that game in the fourth quarter, but he also has a dynamic capability.
01:00:28.480 --> 01:00:30.880
Uh, and ASU has to be better from a coverage standpoint.
01:00:30.960 --> 01:00:33.280
So there's so many facets of this.
01:00:33.440 --> 01:00:38.239
I think ASU is going to immediately get better in some, in others, it'll probably take a little more time.
01:00:38.480 --> 01:00:41.039
Let's also remember this is important.
01:00:41.440 --> 01:00:43.599
Even go back to 2024, Gabby.
01:00:43.760 --> 01:00:48.239
ASU almost lost on the road to Texas State that year early on in the season.
01:00:48.400 --> 01:00:53.199
There were performances that were mediocre at best early on in that season.
01:00:53.360 --> 01:00:56.239
And what we saw was a team that got better and better and better.
01:00:56.320 --> 01:01:04.880
In fact, the most improvement that I've ever seen from an ASU football team from the beginning of the season to the end of the season, with mostly these coaches.
01:01:05.440 --> 01:01:20.239
So do I believe that Kenny Dillingham going back to that role that he had in 2024 and Marcus Arroyo having the role that he had in 2024, and Brian Ward having the role that he had in 2024 will lead to improvements this season over the next eight weeks?
01:01:20.400 --> 01:01:21.039
Yes, I do.
01:01:21.119 --> 01:01:23.280
I think that's logical.
01:01:23.519 --> 01:01:24.320
Could I be wrong?
01:01:24.480 --> 01:01:25.920
Absolutely, I could be wrong.
01:01:26.000 --> 01:01:30.719
And if I am wrong, I'm going to tell you that I was and why I think it happened.
01:01:30.800 --> 01:01:42.559
And I will tell you why I think they were wrong, about their confidence in their ability to make generate improvements and where things should go from there.
01:01:43.119 --> 01:01:49.679
And this is a humbling, this is a humbling, humbling enterprise.
01:01:50.079 --> 01:01:55.519
I predicted a totally different game than we saw against Baylor.
01:01:55.599 --> 01:01:58.000
I thought it would be a low-scoring defensive slug fest.
01:01:58.159 --> 01:01:59.039
I'm not the only one.
01:01:59.199 --> 01:02:04.000
The guy who covers Baylor for 24-7 thought it was going to be a 10 to 7 final score.
01:02:04.159 --> 01:02:10.079
He thought that Baylor's offense had looked really bad and was not going to get it figured out against ASU.
01:02:10.960 --> 01:02:12.960
So it's humbling.
01:02:14.159 --> 01:02:15.840
It is embarrassing at times.
01:02:16.079 --> 01:02:26.239
People have uh they've posted in on our on our YouTube or on our board, hey, you said Chris, that you thought the ASU was going to be good this year, and they suck.
01:02:26.480 --> 01:02:28.000
And what happened?
01:02:28.239 --> 01:02:41.599
Hey, I'm trying to go, I'm trying to as earnestly as I can go through what I think happened and why, what the reasons were, why maybe I didn't see it the way that it's played out.
01:02:41.840 --> 01:02:43.360
That's all I can do.
01:02:43.519 --> 01:02:55.440
Like, I'm going to watch every play, study everything as much as anyone, spend as much time trying to behind the scenes, figure it out, and then we're going to just communicate that to the best of our ability.
01:02:55.599 --> 01:02:58.559
So I hope that people stay with us on that journey.
01:02:58.960 --> 01:03:04.239
If you want to hit the ripcord and fly out of here, good luck.
01:03:04.559 --> 01:03:22.320
But I don't think you're gonna, I just don't think you're gonna get, I don't think you're gonna get a more fulsome attempt to deeply understand these things as well as possible as you're gonna get in our coverage.
01:03:23.039 --> 01:03:28.559
Well, we will soon see if you end up being right about all of those things that you said.
01:03:28.719 --> 01:03:32.639
Um, and if you are not, then we will be back on a podcast.
01:03:32.800 --> 01:03:39.519
We'll have our post-game show and we can debrief it all over again, and uh then maybe people will pull the plug.
01:03:39.760 --> 01:03:40.480
I'm just kidding.
01:03:40.559 --> 01:03:42.000
But um, that's all we have.
01:03:42.800 --> 01:03:43.440
Somewhere.
01:03:44.480 --> 01:03:56.159
That's all we have this week on the Sun Devil Source podcast presented by Jones Auto Centers ASU in Hawaii this weekend before hitting the road again to Lubbock for that matchup against Texas Tech.
01:03:56.320 --> 01:03:57.039
Thank you so much for watching.
01:03:57.119 --> 01:04:02.960
This has been Gabby Chernoff and Chris Cartman for the Sun Devil Source podcast presented by Jones Auto Centers.